Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Nicole. On today's episode, we have Ifetayo join us for a conversation all about the psychedelic transformation of trauma.
Together we talk about building expansive communities, bravely imagining a new future, and the transformative power of vulnerability. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world. Tuning in for another episode each Wednesday.
My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy. And I am also the founder of The Pleasure Practice, supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships. Dear Nicole. Listener. Hello, hello, hi. I am so honored to be bringing you this conversation today.
Today's guest was very vulnerable with her story and You know, so many of these episodes on the podcast, I'm just honored that each guest continues to trust me to open up, to be vulnerable about the difficult experiences that they have gone through and how they have transformed them in their story into moments of empowerment and I'm honored when we laugh on this show, I'm honored when we cry on this show together, and I'm so happy to have you here, dear listener, joining me for the journey each week of the unfolding of the show and the guests that trust me, and we're making something very, very special, and today's guest had said, We have to have the imagination and the courage to say, There has to be something better.
And this just reminded me of, you know, the anarchists saying that another world is possible. And that is absolutely the case. Dear listener, I hope that you are inspired to keep dreaming. To be brave and bold and bright in that vision that you see for your world, your community, your lovers. Hold on to that, and have the courage to demand change, as all these wild things are happening.
Hold on to that vision, hold on to that love, that space, the vulnerability that we can create when we are really present with each other. And I'm so, so grateful that you are present with me now, present with me each Wednesday, and I'm so excited to keep learning, and unlearning, learning, And growing with you in this space.
Dear listener.
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We'll dive in, and the first question I ask every guest is, how would you like to introduce yourself to the listeners?
Ifetayo: Thank you. I would introduce myself as Ife Tayo. Ifetayo Harvey. Um, I am originally from Charleston, South Carolina, been living in New York for about eight years, and I am the executive director of the People of Color Psychedelic Collective.
Nicole: Great. It's a joy to have you here and I'm excited to talk to you today.
Ifetayo: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Nicole: So, Tell me, why are you passionate about the work that you do?
Ifetayo: I'm passionate about the work that I do because we're in a really interesting moment in the world and also in the psychedelics field specifically.
And there are a lot of people who want to learn about psychedelics or want to try psychedelics and they don't know where to start. And for me, as someone who Benefited from psychedelic use. I know what it's like to be in the space and not see people who look like you and to seek that out. And so I like to see myself as a resource for people to support people that gives people education to help people find and build community.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah. And I know you're talking a little bit about your personal journey with that. I'd love to hear more if you'd be willing to share about what your journey has been and to, yeah, find those spaces where you weren't seen in that way and what that journey has looked like for you.
Ifetayo: Yeah. So. I would say this journey started at a really early age for me when I was for my dad to prison for selling drugs.
He was convicted, uh, cocaine trafficking and sentenced to 15 years in prison in Florida. I grew up in South Carolina, so there was some distance and as a kid, I, Really understand what it meant to be in prison, right? A lot of times our kids understanding of prisons or jails or are from media from TV movies, books.
And so, in my mind, I associate my dad with being. A bad guy, or, you know, associating with this bad guys who belong in jail or belong in prison. And I think I internalize a lot of my experiences being a child of someone who was in prison and I've, I had a lot of stigma and a lot of shame that kept me from talking about it.
And, you know, I didn't know how to talk about it. A lot of times when someone goes to prison in your family, it's like, kept on the hush hush because of that shame. You don't want people asking too many questions. You don't want people judging you. And so I went through life, not really talking about the fact that my dad was incarcerated when I was 12.
My dad was released early, uh, after serving about eight years. And he was deported to Jamaica. This is in 2004. So he's been in Jamaica since 2004. And, uh, when he was released, obviously that gave us more room and more space to actually. I guess, reunite while my dad was in prison, we would write letters back and forth to each other and never talk on the phone or I never visited him.
He was incarcerated. And so his release gave me an opportunity to, you know, get to know him as a person and, and through knowing him, I've come to understand myself more. And so when I was 16, I. Got my first job, saved up money to get my own passport and buy a ticket to Jamaica to see him. And so that was kind of the start of us rebuilding our relationship.
And when I went to college, I started opening up to friends and classmates about my dad. I had a few friends in college who also had parents who went to prison or were in and out of jail. And so I, I start to see how by me sharing my story. Other people felt like they were given permission to also share their story.
And during my junior year at Smith, I started an internship at the drug policy alliance. They were the 1 of the 1st organizations that I came across that. Talked about people who use drugs or were drug involved in a, in a compassionate non stigmatizing way. And so I saw this as an opportunity for me to join this movement that I wasn't really familiar with and at the drug policy alliance, I wrote a few blogs.
One of them was. Title children, I've incarcerated parents bear the weight of the war on drugs. Um, and I was talking about how 1 in 9 black children will have a parent in prison. How a lot of people who have parents or family members in prison or experiencing mental health issues or are struggling in silence and.
The drug policy alliance. A few months later, invited me to be 1 of their opening plenary speakers at their conference, the International Drug Policy Reform Conference in Denver. This is in 2013 and I had a really cathartic moment where I just. I was giving my talk and I'm a person who's very comfortable doing public speaking as a student council kid growing up, but during this talk, I just broke down crying in front of a lot of people and it's always I felt embarrassed, but so many people afterwards affirmed me and affirmed my story and said that they can relate.
And afterwards, you know, I'm going to different panels, different talks and. Mind you, I'm still in college by this time. I'm a senior in college and I just got diagnosed with a major depressive disorder. And so that was kind of hitting me hard, even though I knew that I had tendencies, depression tendencies since I was a kid.
And I believe that that was connected to my father's incarceration, but to hear it from a psychiatrist, your therapist, it just made it more real for me. And so while I was giving the speech, I was in the middle of, like, a depressive episode and I had so many responsibilities. I was taking on a lot of leadership positions at my college and, um, I ended up going to a panel on end of life treatment and psychedelics.
And this is my 1st time ever hearing about psychedelics used in a therapeutic setting. My mom used psychedelics when she was in her 20s, and I was really into the music from that era, the 60s and 70s, and at that time, my friends were all trying, like, Molly, which is like, you know, the, I guess, the street form of NDMA.
And so, uh, being at this panel, they were talking about how people who have terminal illnesses, um, like cancer have a great deal of existential anxiety and that resonated with me because as a kid, I had existential anxiety. I would ask my mom, like, oh, what's the point of life? Why are we here? Why are we living?
That commits me to try mushrooms because I was in this depressive episode and I was struggling with suicidal ideation therapy was helping, but it didn't feel like it was moving fast enough. And I was scared to try pharmaceutical meds. And so psychedelics are psychedelic seem like a alternative. I knew that my friends at school knew about mushrooms.
So after the conference is over, I went back to school and I was like, asking my friends, like, how do I do mushrooms? Like, how does it work? And they're like, okay, well, you should take three and a half grams, you should go into nature, um, by the way, it's really nasty, so like, you should eat it in something, um, and so I was like, okay, like, you know, taking notes, and yeah, but I, I was just really desperate.
I was really desperate because, um. I hadn't been this depressed in a really long time and I wanted to like, you know, snap myself out of it because I was so scared that I was going to fuck up my responsibilities that I had taken on. So one Saturday morning, I fixed my mushroom peanut butter sandwich and I went, um, I had one of my friends.
Be my sitter. She was a psych major and I trust her with my life. Um, she's a therapist now. And great. So we went out into this, uh, nature trail on my college campus and. The mushrooms start kicking in, I start seeing like the trees glistening or the water glistening and the plants breathing and I was like, whoa, this is I, I started to get a little overwhelmed and, you know, mushrooms also can induce nausea and a lot of folks.
And so I was doing that. Sure. It felt like I was just like, I had drank too much and I was about to vomit and I hate that feeling. So that was my first psychedelic journey and it ended up being what? 68 hours. And I was, um, just processing a lot of things. You know, I, I went into the journey with a lot of expectations and it kind of just, Went against all of my expectations and showed me something completely different and I was able to laugh.
I was able to cry. I was, um, I was able to feel in a way that I had felt in a long time. And to me, that was the most important thing was just being able to laugh, being able to cry and. And also see the beauty of life, see the beauty of the people around me, but also see the beauty of, like, nature and knowing that it's, it's living and breathing and, and communicating with you, whether you see it or not.
And so that really changed my trajectory because I had no interest in psychedelics. I had no interest in working in the psychedelic field in my mind. I was going to. You know, be a social worker, therapist, or be a teacher for middle school or high school students. I ended up getting a job at the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies.
This is about a year after I graduated in 2015. And I was working as the assistant to Rick Doblin, the founder. It was a really interesting eight months that I spent at MAPS. I won't say it was bad because it wasn't, but I learned a lot. I learned a lot about. The big players in the psychedelic field, but I also learned that the psychedelic field has a lot of issues, right?
At the time, I was the only black person at maps. And that was uncomfortable for a lot of reasons that I know that maps has changed a lot since 2015. But back then, you know, it was a different organization, and it was clear that race. Was it being considered as a factor? Um, when we talk about PTSD and healing trauma with psychedelics.
So having that experience. Led to creating this organization, the People of Color Psychedelic Collective, because I found myself looking for people who are talking about how these substances can help heal many traumas, whether that be sexual trauma. Racial trauma, um, there wasn't many people having those conversations.
I remember I went to a panel at the alchemist kitchen in 2016 in New York, and it was all psychedelics and race. I was super excited and I just left feeling so disappointed because it was a panel of mostly people's color and. It just felt like everyone was too afraid to really talk about race directly.
There was one white guy on the panel and it felt like the white guy. Was the only one who was comfortable being explicit about race and racism. And so that led me to write a piece for symposia called why the psychedelic community. So why? And then I start just receiving emails from people saying, like, Hey, I read your piece.
Like, I want to work with you. I want to connect and. So, we had a call November 2017, about 20, 30 peoples, a mixed group, just talking about race and psychedelics and our experiences with it. And after that call, I, I took the reins of that group and started facilitating more and more and then that evolved into us doing projects and becoming a nonprofit and.
You know, that led, you know, where we are today. But psychedelics have been a tool in my healing journey and I'm grateful for the experiences and, and it's something that, Hmm, I would say is a slow process, right? When we are really down on our look or down bad, we want something to fix us really quickly.
Mm-hmm . And, and that's 'cause we don't wanna feel the suffering. And in some ways, it did, I did have a quick change in me, but at the same time, it's been a journey and, and healing is a, is a lifelong journey. We're never going to be fully healed in this lifetime, but we can strive to, you know, reach our potential.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah. Thank you for sharing your story. Thank you for trusting me and sharing that with me and all the listeners. I really appreciate that vulnerability. And before we get into it, you know, I just want to hold the space, you know, when we look back on the journey of where you've gone, you know, from the beginning, like starting at that four years old self, right.
And the experiences with your dad, I mean, what a journey to get to here. So I'm curious as you just shared your story, like How does it feel in this present moment to kind of like look back and just see The journey you've gone through
Ifetayo: Yeah in some ways it feels surreal um It feels sometimes I have to like remind myself like this is really my life.
You know, this is it this isn't just some story that i'm making up or You know, I really like sometimes I have to remind myself like that. Like yeah, my dad really did go to prison That was really his life and thinking about how that affected my family. So I think it feels surreal for me, but I, I think I have to accept that part of my power is being able to take something so ugly and, and, and, and.
Make it into something beautiful, right? So taking that experience with my dad and that separation and that trauma and making it into something beautiful. When I first started speaking about my story, I, I saw that, like, even folks older than me were like, whoa, like, this is kind of scary for you to, like, share your, your vulnerability in this way.
And, and I saw that they, they were scared of their own vulnerability. Yeah, and I would go to different programs. Like I spoke at a camp for children of incarcerated parents in Cape Cod. I spoke at a after school program here in New York for children of incarcerated parents. And I just saw how easy it is to be a positive.
Role model for these kids and to speak to them and and how they relate to me as an adult telling them. Hey, I went through the same thing. You're going through now. So, I think it's, it's really about accepting reality, right? Not getting stuck in the, in the, what is like, oh, well, what if my dad didn't go to prison?
My life even, or, you know, what if I didn't do psychedelics or whatever? Um, and, and really, yeah, just accepting my life. For what it is and accepting. My ability to take something so ugly and, and turn it into something positive.
Nicole: Yeah, yes, absolutely. So it makes sense to feel that surrealness of it, but to ground yourself in all of the beauty and the ways that you can speak to those kids from lived experience that other people can't, right?
Ifetayo: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's really that simple. It's really that simple. Just talking to. You know, the youth like their people, a lot of times I hear people can complaining about teenagers, you know, being teenagers and I, I think like we were all once there, right? How, what do we need back then? Who did we need?
And I, I try to be that person.
Nicole: Yeah. And I'm curious when you, you know, look back to your younger self along that journey, is there anything that you would want to say to her as she was in the midst of like, processing all of this?
Ifetayo: I think what comes to mind is that um, I think that meme of, of Kris Jenner or not Kris Jenner. Uh, no, it is Kris Jenner. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's like, you're doing amazing, sweetie. I, I think I would tell her that because so many of us have like, We doubt ourselves because of, you know, the systems that we live under.
We doubt our intelligence. We doubt our abilities. And I look back at some of the things I was doing as a teenager. And I'm so impressed with myself. I'm like, wow, I really wrote that. Like, that's really cool. You know, and I think I would also tell her that, like, you have a community of people who support you and believe in you.
So, you know, don't be afraid to try something or experiment with something. Something new.
Nicole: Yeah, such good words of advice for the past, the present and the future self to listen back to, right? I'm like, we got this. We're doing the best we can and it's great, right? Yeah. So powerful. And I'm glad that you had such a beautiful first experience, right?
Um, Yeah. It reminds you of like people's first experiences having sex, right? And how that sort of like shapes the unfolding of your journey, right? Depending on how that looks, you know, and so for you to have this first experience of the profoundness with someone who was sitting for you, for you to be out in nature, to have that beauty and, and to feel right.
Sometimes I, you know, thinking about psychedelics as that non specific amplifier, it's sometimes for me is like that, that ringing out of the sponge, you know, to be able to like, really like. And, and squeeze that out, which is often, you know, depending on how we're moving through the world, we have to be really stiff to function and survive.
Right. So to have that moment of that ringing out to, to, to cry and laugh and giggle. I mean, what a profound space to have had your first experience in.
Ifetayo: Yeah, I'm super grateful. I'm super grateful for that to be my first experience because I know for a lot of people. There's first experiences can be traumatizing.
Right. I guess, but yes. Yeah. And I, a lot of times when I tell that story, if you were like, you took three and a half grams the first time, that's a lot. That is a lot. Oh, I didn't realize. And so I'm even more grateful in hindsight that something didn't go wrong. Cause so many things could have gone wrong, you know, and, you know, And, you know, what you said about that stiffness that we all carry ourselves with.
It's so real, you know, we live in a society that doesn't value emotional intelligence or just spiritual, somatic intelligence, all that stuff. We, we value very specific kinds of intelligences, right? And I'm just, I guess, reminded of how so many of us are holding so much pain or trauma or whatever, because we don't have the space to really unravel.
Right that space to, like, like you said, the sponge to, like, be squeezed and have it all just come out. And so that's that's something I'm thinking about, like, how do we, how do we change our society from being what it is to being more of a. A human center society, or a care center society where people can be cared for and also care because I think, you know, earlier I said we were in an interesting moment in the world and I say that because.
I think a lot of people are seeing, like, society crumble in front of our eyes. And so there's, there's that brief, you know, collective grief, and in some ways, it feels like we all know what's going on, but we're not really talking about it or processing it. Right? You know, we had a whole, um, I don't want to say, I don't want to speak in the past tense, but, you know, the COVID 19 pandemic really.
We haven't, we still haven't processed all those people from who died in 2020 before the vaccines before, you know, we had rapid tests and all that stuff and all the new information. We're learning. We still haven't processed all that grief. Like, we went through this big collective trauma. And I think that we're starting to see, like, the after effects of it, right?
I'm hearing people say, like, oh, are people meaner nowadays or is it just me? And I think we're all kind of noticing, like, we're all on edge. Yeah. We're all on edge, but we don't know what to do. We do know, but we're afraid to really take that step.
Nicole: Right. Yeah, because, uh, you got to get to work on Monday, pull yourself together, figure it out, show up, right?
Like, you know, just under capitalism, like these efficient modes of production, grief is not an efficient mode of production for the system. So, no, we don't have space for that. And if you come into a therapist office with someone like me, I mean, I wouldn't do this, but just like within the field, right?
Prolonged grief disorder. Let me actually apologize. Yeah. Ooh. You know, your, your pain. Fuck. Um, and then just, yeah, even thinking about the pandemic, right? How, you know, You know, many of us have this space to be able to work from home or have more of that, but how many people didn't ever get a break during that, depending on identity factors and all of that, right?
Like, like many people never even got that break even to process that stuff that was going on. They had to show up every day at the grocery store. They had to show up every day at the hospital, right? And so, so many of us haven't even had any break. Any time to even sit at home or like I had the privilege of being at home at working, right?
I mean, there's just so much to that that yes to have that psychedelic experience that really cracks that open when you know Thinking about the psilocybin experience eight hours. When the fuck do I have eight hours? My only days off are Saturday Sunday and I got a dry errands, right? Like we just have eight hour, you know Like I mean, that's part of the whole thing
Ifetayo: Yeah, yeah, the privilege, the privilege to be able to have a day off, you know, and, and that's something I try to mention anytime I do like a public speaking event, that we are privileged to be able to go to these retreats or, you know, go to a clinic and get ketamine or whatever or go to a And, you know, do what they call like an underground service, like we're, we're very privileged to be able to do this.
Like, we live in a country that still does not have paid leave or sick leave for everyone. And so that's something I, I just try to really emphasize in, um, a lot of the spaces I'm in, because there's so many psychedelic enthusiasts who are like, Oh, well, you know, if everyone just took more psychedelics, you know, the world would be a better place.
Or, you know, psychedelics being integrated into our mental health system will help so many people. And it's like, eh, yeah, but, you Our mental health system is already, like, bursting at the seams. Right? Our, our medical system is, is also bursting at the seams. Like, we, we don't see how we don't have these.
The proper infrastructure, um, that's needed to for psychedelics to have a positive impact like we don't have universal health care or traumatized by the health care they receive or it's too expensive or they're dealing with medical racism. And so that deters people from trusting medical professionals.
And I, I also talk about how medical professionals have a history of, you know, kind of acting like cops.
Nicole: Yes. Not kind of. Yes.
Ifetayo: Yeah. Yeah. Like, they are the additional arms of, you know, criminalization. And so we have to really, I guess, have the imagination and also have the courage to say like, Y'all, there is something better than this bullshit that we're in.
The systems that we're living under have been, become so convoluted and bureaucratic that by the time people do organize themselves to change a law or to change, you know, some policy, we have a million other issues that have cropped up, right? I always say that bureaucracy is going to kill us all because we, we've become so disempowered from Each other from our communities that we don't know how to go about making a change.
Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, yeah, let alone the financial pieces, all of the mess of that, and even just being in school or these systems like you were at with maps, right? And the lack of diversity of people in those spaces. I mean, even if we get it through to the system and functioning under the system, the system is Problematic in and of itself, right?
So like you have to, like you said, like dream of this whole upheaval of a whole different world of possibilities of healing that are even outside of the containers of the field of psychology that come from white men. A hundred years ago, right? Like if, if we don't see the problem in that lineage, I'm terrified, right?
Like there's a lot of problems in that lineage. And so to be able to see beyond that is, does require dreaming.
Ifetayo: And, and capitalism, because it only values certain types of intelligence, a lot of people have limited imagination. And so when you say something like, Oh, well, why don't we just, you know, Take over these vacant houses and renovate them and say, fuck the government and just do it anyway.
Right? Like they're like, well, well, that'll be breaking the law. And when we might go to jail, you know, and it's like, okay, yeah, that's the point, that's the point, that's the point, but, um, That's why it's so important to have people who have that lived experience, because a lot of folks in the psychedelic field, they don't like to talk about mass incarceration, even though there are people who've gone to jail for psychedelics.
Yeah, but, you know, knowing someone who goes to prison in some ways, I think it brings you closer to that reality and also makes you less afraid. Because you already know the worst of the worst that, you know, that they're capable of, and I should say the powers that be or the systems are capable of, and so I think in some ways, my father's incarceration made me less fearful of, Of the powers that be
Nicole: right to look it in the face and know what could happen.
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah.
Ifetayo: Yeah. Yeah. And I was, I was also just thinking about how your podcast is called modern anarchy and. How, you know, at the beginning of the pandemic, people started talking about mutual aid and doing mutual aid. I was doing some mutual aid, like grocery shopping for people with disabilities or immunocompromised people.
And to me that 2020 was an opportunity for us as a collective to really shift the way we see life and shift the way we see capitalism, I think. For, you know, the white collar class who was working from home, a lot of us began, began seeing how like, I don't want to say, I hope I don't offend anyone, but how non essential a lot of our jobs are.
Yes. And, and, um, you know, doing mutual aid, I was just thinking, why don't, why don't we do this? All the time, why aren't we doing this all the time? Why aren't we checking on our older neighbors and saying, like, hey, do you need anything? Why aren't we organizing resources in our community to give to 1 another?
And then, you know, when a lot of the uprising start to happen in that summer. Again, it was an opportunity to kind of shift the way we see policing, right? People started saying, defund the police. And some folks are saying, oh, no, that phrase is too alienating. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And we get stuck on conversations like that.
But if you look at the evidence. How much money we're giving police departments and they're buying military grade weapons and equipment. Meanwhile, our schools are crumbling. We don't have community spaces, um, where people can just hang out and just be. In New York City, our mayor has decided it's more important to fund law enforcement than it is to keep people safe.
Libraries open, so, in some ways, it feels like we missed a lot of opportunity to really change our society for the better. And in some ways, it felt like the 1st time for a lot of people were where we felt care for where we felt that community that we are lacking now. So. So, yeah, these are just things that I'm, I'm, I guess, thinking about, um, on the day to day, like, how do we, how do we hold space for the grief?
How do we use psychedelics carefully and consciously to help people, but also, What kind of models, what kind of healing models or organizing models are easily replicated and can be used in many different places in order to make a change.
Nicole: So essential, right? It reminds me of, um, the rat park research, which.
Yeah, just cluing it in for the research for the listeners again, if they're not familiar this, this model of looking at drug use, where the researchers had put the rats in the cage with heroin and cocaine water, and they drank it to excess where they actually killed themselves so much drug use, right?
Compared to the paradigm of later researchers coming in and saying, well, what if we actually gave a beautiful park for the rats to enjoy with things to do and other rats? And how in that paradigm they used very little of the drug and thrived. Right. And I think so much of these systems of violence and things that we're seeing, right, like, what the fuck is the cage that we're in?
And like, how do we focus on that and funding the libraries? Right? Other than this restricted paradigm of seeing the violence and focusing on it, we have to think about the whole cage that we're in. And so I just, I think it's so beautiful to be thinking about this and so necessary in terms of the work because the reality is psychedelics are not good.
Kind of change the world, right? We see it's about the community. I know you're like, no, you know, um, you know, um, we see people who do psychedelics and it's a reflection then of their community of when you do psychedelics and then say, Whoa, let's capitalize the hell out of this, charge people an absorbent amount of money and make so much money off of this.
Yay. Right? Like, exactly. Right? Versus, uh, Oh, wow. This is a really beautiful, you know, healing potential that comes from nature. How do we give back to our communities? How do we function in mutual aid? How do we change the system so that we stop capitalizing off of people's health and existence to live in this world?
We're like, those are radically different spaces, both funded by, you know, the, the psychedelic experience that makes you feel really passionate about that, that thought that's going through your head, but radically shifted by who's in your community and who's in your circle. Right? So like psychedelics aren't going to change the world.
It's a question of who are you doing it with and who are the examples, the leaders in your spaces that are bringing up these questions of.
Ifetayo: Right, right, right. Yeah, and I love that you kind of painted the separate camps, right? Because a lot of times it's just so funny to me how people in the psychedelic field can have these really powerful experiences.
They'll talk about the DMT elves, but they cannot imagine a world without prisons or police. So, okay, you can do these mind bending drugs and see all this cool shit, but you can't imagine a world without police, even though that world has existed before. Right. You can't. You can't imagine. So it's really interesting seeing what people take from their journeys.
And to me, if your journeys aren't helping you show up in community better than, than maybe You need to try something else because yeah, there's this assumption that psychedelics make you a better person, or they have these pro social qualities to them. And I don't think that's true. I think a lot of times, you know, it depends on facilitation, depends on your settings, who you're with, but it also is a lot of times it just amplifies what's already there.
And we can't. We can't depend on that to make the world better, and it's just ridiculous, like, we, we don't say that about any other class of drugs, we don't say like, oh, if everyone was on opioids, the world would be a better place, like, no, it's really simple, if we make the world a better place, more enjoyable, then the world will be a better place, and how do we do that, like, People need to have their needs met.
Everyone deserves food, clothing, shelter. It's, it's crazy that, like, me saying that will, will bring reactions, or people will say like, Oh, well, no, that's their responsibility. Blah, blah, blah. It's like, no, we are, we're all connected, right? Individualism is a big part of food. Why I think so many people struggle with this because we don't see ourselves as responsible to each other and we definitely don't see ourselves as responsible to the earth.
I think we, we see ourselves as separate. So, yeah, and the other thing is that, you know, you're what you're talking about with, you know, The rat park experiment again, it's like, Thomas is like, yeah, people have a pretty place and they hang out with their friends and their family and their community and have other needs.
But yeah, they're gonna, they're not going to need to escape using substances that much anymore. You know, so a lot of this stuff is, is really simple, but we make it seem like it's this convoluted thing. And I was grateful when I first entered the drug policy. Reform World, one of my assignments as an intern was to read Karl Hart's book, Dr.
Karl Hart, High Price, and he really does a good job of breaking down addiction, and he says that most people who use drugs aren't actually addicted. You know, some people might have dependency, some people might have problematic use, but it's not always addiction. And I think a lot of times we overstate how much addiction is in this country, but people can also break through their addictions when we get at the root of what is causing them pain.
Nicole: Right. Which is the cage, right? The cage and then our interpersonal relationships, depending, which are shaped by the cage, right? Lineages of trauma and how that impacts us growing up. So thinking about that as more of the, the, the source to be attacking. Right. And it's just, it is so hard for people to view a world without police.
It is so hard for people to view a world without capitalism, right? Like these alternative, you know, revolutions of what it could look like. I think that's an important part of the activism is to actually step into that dreaming space because it is so. Hard. Like, how would we function? What would the day to day who's going to be the janitor, right?
Like all the jobs that you think no one wants to do. Right. That's where I remember I listened to like upstream and they do a lot of conversations around capitalism and like what it would look like to get out of the structure, which has helped me even to think about like, okay, how would this look, but so many of us don't even have that paradigm.
So it seems so. Impossible, right? And so we stay in the limited. It's hard. It was heartbreaking to me with my, um, my family's Mormon. So there's, there's deep connections between religious ideology and, and, uh, political perspectives. And so it's sometimes fun for me to, like, given where I'm at, like, drop my ideas over there See how they live, you know, um, and my sister has a little baby and she's had a lot of health problems.
She was a preemie, you know, complicated things. And so my sister is, you know, just like surviving, um, and, uh, she had to go to the ER and take the baby and just have these radical bills. And she's like, it's so crazy, like these bills that I'm being charged to keep my baby alive. And I'm like. It's crazy.
Yeah, that's wild. Like next time I know when there's a president that's going to offer universal health care, I know who you'll be voting for. And she goes, I don't know. I mean, I think I just need to get this better job over here. I hear that this better job, I know, I hear this better job has better co pays and I'll be okay.
And I'm like, damn it, you know, like she's talking about the pain point, but not seeing that additional world of we could get beyond this damn privatization of healthcare of profiting off of you to your sister. Like we could get out of that. Right. And I think so many people are in that of like, Well, no, no, no, like this, the step over here is just this better job at the pay and I'm like, oh,
Ifetayo: right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of it. Yes. Individual. Thank you. We're like, I just need a better job. I just need to do better. And it's like, no, we have the resources available for everyone to be better. We just. People just don't want everyone on the same level because capitalism relies on the exploitation of poor people to function.
And poverty is It's a social construct. It's something that's created and maintained through these systems. So, it's, it's always funny when you get people almost to the point and they're like, Ah, no, no, no. I know. And that's, in some ways to me, it's like, it's a survival mechanism, right? It's like, okay, well, I just need to be better.
I just need to be better.
Nicole: Well, totally. That's what I think about like Stockholm syndrome, right? Where you've been abused so much so that you're just like, no, like, this is okay. Like, it's like less abuse over here is totally cool. And I'm like, no, dear sister, like, beyond, beyond, let's get out of the abusive structures, right?
But it's so normalized, you know, that, that, you know, even just thinking about having a five day Weak for work. People literally died to have us have work for only five days, friends, right? Like, I think some of us forget that structure and how much that impacts us and just dreaming beyond that world. I mean, the people at the top are like, just fucking having a ball up there of all of us on the bottom here struggling, right?
Right. And then all of us somewhere in the middle go, Well, I worked really fucking hard for my money. I'm not gonna share that through mutual aid. I worked hard. They should work hard, right? And again, not seeing the large structure of, Whoa, there's people at the top. And if we restructured, it's a whole different game, my friend.
Yeah.
Ifetayo: Yeah. It's like. Especially in the U. S., we don't realize how much propaganda we're, we're fed.
Like, it's just so much propaganda that we mentally have to work through in order not to like, tear ourselves apart. Because, again, a lot of times we, we internalize, like you said, the people at the tops. Um, fuckery. We internalize it and make it like, oh, well, it reminds me of that song from, uh, Fiddler on the Roof.
If I was a rich man. And Retevye is just like, well, if I had a rich man, I'd do this, I'd do that, blah, blah, blah. And I think we all kind of think like that. Well, when I get rich or when I make it past this income bracket, then I'll be set. I don't have to worry about anything. So we treat money or climbing, you know, the corporate job ladder as our escape from capitalism or that's the solution when it's like, well, what about everyone else?
You know, like me, I grew up in a family of seven kids. My mom was a single parent. So, you know, we were very working class, poor and. You know, I went to a very prestigious college and done a lot of things, but what does all those things mean? If I can't take my family with me, if they don't have access to the same opportunities and space to be a person, it sometimes I have to, like, remind myself because.
Or just remind myself of where I came from
this is me. Yeah. Okay. So, before the pandemic, you know, I'd be working in the office and I would, like, call my mom just to, like, tell her something really quickly. And she's like, I don't want you to get in trouble for talking on the phone at work. Or like, are you sure you're not taking too long of a break?
Yeah. And that was because my family's working class and we work blue collar jobs and people don't understand that service workers are not afforded a lot of protections at white collar. Workers are given, you know, like I grew up working in fast food. My older sister was a bartender for 20 years. A lot of those people can't even sit down.
A lot of the folks don't even get to actually get a lunch break, even though legally they're supposed to get a lunch break.
Nicole: Right.
Ifetayo: And so we don't, we don't realize. Just, I don't even know where I was going with that, but I, yeah,
Nicole: I hear you
Ifetayo: just how much, how much privilege we have, but at the same time, why aren't we saying like, everyone should have this privilege that I have, everyone should have access to education and rest and, and hobbies or whatever.
A lot of times we say, well, oh, well, they didn't work hard enough, or, oh, like, it's easier to say that to that than to actually question the system that we're in.
Nicole: Yeah, as if the systems are fair, and they should work harder. Oh, it's a perfectly fair system. Totally, right? Mm hmm.
Ifetayo: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm really curious.
To see how psychedelic decriminalization or legalization or medicalization plays out because I think it's, it's going to be just a new product or any medication or the new prozac. Right? And. We focus on again, treating the symptoms, but not actually treating the root of the issue, both on a collective and individual level,
Nicole: which is absurd.
Like, God, if I can do anything with the rest of my career of psychology, right, it will be like that conversation of how do we work more upstream to prevent these systems or symptoms, right? It's just, it's, it's absurd to me, any level of mental health perspective that doesn't take a systems. Perspective to see how that is literally absurd.
But another topic, another time, you know, don't get too upset. Um, but yeah, I just, I think about how essential that is particularly for the conversation around psychedelics because psychedelics often like highlight the imbalances, right? Again, granted. We, we, we say that with nuance of knowing what it means to do them in different community spaces and how and how we will interpret that experience.
But generally that heightened, um, non specific amplifier can make you feel that incongruence in ways with systems and things. That is pretty novel. And I think. When I just find it so absurd how I can, like, walk down the streets and there's, like, alcohol advertisements here, left, right, right, something that really, like, inhibits our reactions and slows us down, right, to not feel, to numb, right, versus something on the other side that really amplifies.
Oh man, I am really excited to see what that does do to us as a society, as we feel more, as we have, I know the nuance of it has to be within community and like that piece, but to just think about a world where alcohol has been so deeply normalized and to, which is Drug and a different drug like in these other drugs coming in to like at least equal caliber where you could walk down the street and go be able to purchase that and have that experience.
I am really interested to see how the world, you know, develops in that new new phase.
Ifetayo: Yes, yes, yes. And yeah, it's so interesting to me how alcohol and also alcoholism is normalized in this country. Um, like there was this video trend on TikTok where, you know, People would do like before and afters, like, oh, the big, the, at the beginning of a party, I look like this and after some drinks, I'm like, sprawled out on the floor, vomiting, and that people laugh at that, right?
If it was any other classic drugs, people would be pathologizing those folks and saying, like, Wow, y'all got issues and calling them all sorts of stigmatizing names. And so I think that some of the younger generations are starting to see how alcohol isn't really for them. Um, they're not interested in it.
And not to say that like, oh, you know, psychedelics being more accessible is gonna make our world better. But it, it might, yeah, like you said, it's gonna be interesting to see how it plays out. What I think is important is, um, harm reduction, you know, education, you know, the war on drugs was a huge propaganda machine.
And because of that, we are very miseducated about drugs, how they, you know, work in our bodies and, and the effects of them. And so for me, it's really important to teach people, to give people an honest education about drugs without stigma, without shaming. Because a lot of us are polysubstance users, right?
A lot of times we're not just smoking weed. A lot of times we're drinking too, right? Or we're not just drinking, maybe we're doing some cocaine or something, right? So we have to Step away from the purity, um, values where we're acted all holier than thou because we've done psychedelics and we're all spiritual and, and really, really meet people where they are and think about what it means to increase access to a substance without educating people on.
That substance, um, I think it can be a recipe for disaster if we're not careful. So, so yeah, I think, yeah, the psychedelic world can stand to learn a lot from the harm reduction movement.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Absolutely. Harm reduction, pleasure enhancement, and that like, Both right. And I think about Carl Hart's research with heroin, right.
And letting go of psychedelic exceptionalism. That's another one that like people, when I dropped that in the room, I had like a presentation of one of my classmates for, for training, um, at school, not at sauna healing collective, but actually in my school training. And the second I started talking about healthy heroin use, the room went.
And I was like, Ooh, this is fun, y'all. What are you feeling right now?
Ifetayo: Yep. Yep. Oh yeah. People, people are very uncomfortable with that. Um, but it's funny because. You know, yeah, a lot of folks in the psychedelic space want to distance themselves from those kinds of users, right? But then it's like, y'all will talk about, oh, plant medicine, plant medicine.
Well, heroin comes from a plant, too. Cocaine comes from a plant, too. When does something become plant medicine and when does it become a drug, right? Totally. And to me, yeah, psychedelic exceptionalism is also like respectability. Yeah, making certain substances more respectable than others. And I don't think people realize that they're doing the war on drugs work for them by kind of perpetuating this racialization and class associations of certain drugs, right?
That's why. Certain drug users are more termalized than others because they are associated with certain races or certain economic classes of people.
Nicole: Right. I think about crack versus cocaine, right? Cocaine, totally cool, right? Like,
Ifetayo: ah.
Nicole: Or just the absurdity of like, you know, if you're going to do psychedelic psychotherapy and you're getting ketamine injected, right?
Needle of a different kind. Ooh, not a needle. Oh, no. Right. And or if I'm snorting it, that feels so bad. It seems same substance, same substance, but like the narratives around what it means to actually snort something versus haven't injected and just the complexities of all the societal messaging around that and the ways that that's internalized for all of us.
In ways that if we are not actively looking at our shit, it is present. Like, you know, it's like another system of oppression where we have to actively be examining, Where are these thoughts coming from? Who is telling me this? Right? I mean, it is an endless well of digging up to get, like, all that crap out of the water for some clear water at the bottom there.
Ifetayo: Yeah, that's so true. I, um, a lot of times I'm asked, by people. Well, how do I get involved? Like, what can I do? And something I always say is like, just educate yourself. Start there. Because so many folks get excited with psychedelics. They want to maybe start being a practitioner, you know, and it's like, no, it's so because We have so much shit that we've internalized in propaganda.
We need to educate ourselves and unpack all of our biases that we have against drug users, against people with addictions, and other mental illnesses. Like, that's a lot of work to unpack. And so that's why I am grateful that I came into reading Karl Harp's book when I did, because He made it really simple.
I thought like on the cover, I was like, Oh, he's a neuroscientist. This is going to be some scientific jargon. And it wasn't, it wasn't, he really contextualized. He talked about his. You know, growing up in Miami, but he was just like, yeah, if people have their needs met, then they're less likely to get addicted.
Like, duh.
Nicole: Right.
Ifetayo: I know.
Nicole: You say that, but man, in my substance use course, we had like a nice, like, Uh, I, the, the person who was teaching it, Dr. Rachel Smith, love her. She taught it from a harm reduction perspective and like one of the first questions she asked was like, How do you understand addiction, right, as a relational systems problem to, like, an internal diagnosis, you know, sort of disease model, right, and just watching my classmates spread up along that spectrum and knowing, damn, y'all are the future of clinicians out there, like, holy shit, that message, we could spend a lifetime just trying to get people to understand literally systems, just systems.
Ifetayo: Yeah. Oh man, that's, that's so, that's so true. And when you were talking about that, that just made me think of how, like, yeah, I often say that we are integrating psychedelics into a burning house. Yeah. It's a great saying. Yeah. This is a, you know, MLK, he, he said that in regards to integration or desegregation.
Um, and I, I agree with psychedelics, like we're, We're so, we're acting from this place of urgency, like, oh, we need to fix mental health. We need, it's like, yeah, that's true, but are we going to make it worse by speeding through it and not thinking really clearly about what could potentially happen here? Or what if we redirected some of this sense of urgency towards legalizing or integrating psychedelics into other forms of activism and organizing?
Right? What if we took all this energy towards psychedelics and said, Hey, why don't we just decriminalize drug use period in this whole country and free everybody who, who has been convicted of a drug offense? Like how fast would things change if we redirected our energy there? There's, I say that because there is kind of like this, I guess, internal argument in the drug policy reform world and the psychedelic world where.
A lot of drug policy folks or harm reduction folks kind of see the attention that psychedelic organizers or organizations are having and they're like, wait, where was this energy for all the other drug users or when are y'all going to acknowledge that the harm reduction movement that start gaining momentum?
Through the HIV AIDS crisis, is the reason that we're even able to talk about psychedelics in the way we are right now, or when are we going to acknowledge that other classes of drugs are fun too for people, right? People find joy in that too, like, you know, I, I've taken opioids for like, Pain before, but even with that pain, I was like, damn, I see why people like this shit.
It makes you feel like you're about to take the best nap of your life. That's a great feeling, right? So, so I think we need more understanding and empathy towards each other. And I think we also need to look at how the systems we have in place are extremely carceral. Yeah, we don't, we don't have interventions for people who need help.
Really, especially at a young age. Like, I, I wrote a piece a few years ago for the American Association of aging on aging, incarcerated people. And I had the opportunity to interview a few people. Older formerly incarcerated people, and they shared their stories with me, and I was also doing research on, you know, on this topic and I just began to see how if you were given a bad hand early on in life, the chances of you recovering from that or.
Very small and it's luck. A lot of times. Right. I remember reading like a woman's story who I think she lost her mom and she was sexually assaulted. And so that led to her committing a crime and going and doing prison time because of it. And I just think of how so many people. Have had that same thing happen to them where they had childhood trauma, and they're essentially criminalized because yes,
Nicole: yes. And who needs to pay for that? Right? We need a different system that understands that perspective right there of trauma and rehabilitation. Right? I mean, it's so many conversations to have there and I'm just so thankful for you coming into this space and sharing your narrative and sharing what you're passionate about.
And. To hold this space with you of dreaming of another world so that we can, you know, through the ripples of these conversations, kind of like bring the collective consciousness into more dreaming of what is possible that will happen beyond our lifetimes. Right? And I'm conscious of our limited time together.
And so I'm looking at the clock for you, and I know you have to dip out. I'm sure we could talk for hours about this, so, but I want to hold space if it feels good to you to bring you towards that closing question so I can get you out on time. Yeah, yeah, thank you.
Ifetayo: Yeah, I really appreciate you just holding this space for me and Yeah, I feel like I was all over the place in some ways, but every episode is.
Yeah. And that's the beauty of it because, you know, psychedelics touches on so many things and, and if anything, it teaches us that we're all connected in one way or the other. So, yeah, I'm, I know I'm all over the place, but that's because that's the nature of what we're trying to do here.
Nicole: I agree, and I think that that's where the powerful conversations are, talking about the larger ways that it's a part of this rather than just like the drug, the drug, right?
It's all the rest of it that really shapes the experience. So it was on par for every Modern Anarchy conversation. Yeah, but the closing question I ask every guest on the show is. What is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?
Ifetayo: Hmm, that's a great question. One thing I would say is it is normal to keep your trauma a secret and be afraid to tell anyone.
That is normal, but it's also normal to eventually, you know, find your time to share With the people who you care about. So, I say that because I just, I just know there's people who are caring so much. Yes. And it's okay. It's okay. But it's also okay for you to be vulnerable.
Nicole: Mmm. Yeah, those tears coming up.
Can I, I'd love to hear what's going on for you. Yes.
Ifetayo: Man, well, I guess for me. I've been that person.
Nicole: Yeah,
Ifetayo: I've been that person. I didn't, I carried the pain, my pain of my father being away for so long. I didn't feel like I could talk to anyone about it. And I guess what I would add on to that is that you have to give people a chance to show up for you when you're caring so much.
It is scary, but we have to take a chance sometimes and trust that people will show up for us in the way that we need.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah. Oof, I can feel the weight of that, of everything that you were carrying back then, right? Oh, yeah. And to open up to people and tell them and really share that vulnerable piece of your story.
Oh,
Ifetayo: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It gets easier with time. It gets easier with time. Yeah. And that's how we heal. That's how we heal is by being held. By our, our friends, our family, our community, all these experiences or traumas that we're ashamed of and that we're scared to really process. On the other side of that is healing and being helped.
Nicole: Yeah, it's that release to know that someone else knows we don't, I don't know what you went through, but I am hearing you. I'm seeing you. I'm seeing you and I'm with you, right? And that ability to do that for the people that we love and care about in our community is what allows us to be seen and to release and be known and that intimacy is, Yeah.
Ifetayo: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm thinking about what that looks like on an individual level, but also a collective level too.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You've talked to me individually today, but you've also talked to thousands of listeners, right? Who are tuning in. And so. I really appreciate the vulnerability to show up in this space to trust me and, and, and to take that activism step of, of sharing your vulnerability in such a public space.
So I really, really appreciate it.
Ifetayo: Yes. Thank you. Thank you for being open to receiving. Yeah, I think vulnerability is how we, it's often times the best side of ourselves, that we keep away from people, you know, and there's something wrong with protecting your vulnerability, but I often think that's the most beautiful side of people.
Nicole: Absolutely, I agree. I think it's the most transformative side. Yeah.
Ifetayo: Yeah.
Nicole: I want to ask you to for the people who have really connected with you and your work and your mission and your value systems and your dream and your vision. Where can they find you to connect with you?
Ifetayo: Yes, so they can find us online. The People Scholar Psychedelic Collective. Our website is www. pocpc. org. I also have my personal website, www. pocpc. org. Ifetayo. ne and we can connect there.
Nicole: Thank you so much for coming here. I really, really appreciate you. for having me. If you enjoyed today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcasts.
And head on over to modernanarchypodcast. com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I want to thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.
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