248: Liberating your Sexual and Relational Play with Dr. Liz Powell

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole.

On today's episode. We have Dr. Liz join us for a conversation about learning to embrace your full erotic play. So together we talk about the orgies at Ren fairs, developing healthy interdependence and betrayal versus cheating and non-monogamy. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.

I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world. Tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, author of the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and Founder of The Pleasure Practice, where I support individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships.

Dear listener, oh, the power of two queer doctors. The power of two queer doctors. Oh, it's so good. You know, as an anarchist, I have lots of thoughts about power differentials, right? The doctor, wow, there's a lot there to talk about. There's a lot there to dismantle. There's a lot there to question and also.

Under these systems. Wow. I just feel so delighted to have that armoring and that power, and to meet other queer radical doctors like Dr. Liz and say, Hey, why don't we talk about all that messed up theory that needs to be updated. Huh. Huh. Oh, it's so, so juicy and oh, dear listener, dear listener, please know that there are people like me, like Dr.

Liz, that are out there and we're rewriting this stuff. We refuse to go down quietly. We're creating a new world of understanding for relationships, for sexuality, for erotic connections, because the narratives that we have been sold, the narratives that have locked us away into these restrictive boxes, they are not serving us, and we will no longer stay inside them.

We make platforms, we make spaces, and we make powerful conversations like this one, and we share it with all our friends. Oh dear listener. Thanks for being here. Thanks for being a part of this movement. It is such a joy to make this show with you every week, and I'm happy that you're along for the ride.

Ah, alright. Dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and free resources@modernanarchypodcast.com, linked in the show notes below. And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters, you are supporting the long-term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible to all people.

So thank you. And with that dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode.

Dear Listener, there's a space already waiting for you. Where you are invited to let go of every old script about sex and relationships, and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure, empowerment, and deep alignment. I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real trans. Possible, and I'll be right there with you. Guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure and visit modern anarchy podcast.com/pleasure practice to apply.

So the first question that I ask each guest is, how would you introduce yourself to the listener?

[00:07:07] Dr. Liz: So I am Dr. Liz. I am a psychologist and a sex educator. Uh, I wrote a book about non-monogamy called Building Open Relationships, and I myself am queer non-binary, bisexual, polyamorous, slutty kink or switch.

Mm-hmm. Uh, which is yes, yes, yes. The way that I put it is I'm an and person, not an or person. Like if you want me to choose between, I want both. And so mm-hmm. That's very much my approach to a lot of things. Yes.

[00:07:39] Dr. Nicole: Well, you're certainly in the right space. Uh, so excited to have you today. Thank you for joining me and all the listeners.

Yeah. I'm excited to be here. Yeah. First question, to dive in deep, I'd love to hear more about your personal journey. How did you get to the space of liberation? I know each person that gets to that has a long, complex history, and I would love to hear your journey.

[00:08:05] Dr. Liz: Yeah. I mean, uh, so those who are listening, you can't see that I'm wearing a shirt from my own merch, which says we're all just messy weirdos.

Yes. And like that is very much encapsulates a lot of my experience and journey as well. Yeah. Um, I, in terms of like non-monogamy, which is where I'll says layers on. Layers on layers, of course,

[00:08:26] Dr. Nicole: yes. There is.

[00:08:26] Dr. Liz: Um, I came out as bisexual when I was in high school around 17, and I was the only person I knew at my high school who was queer.

[00:08:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:08:36] Dr. Liz: Uh so that was very challenging. And then I got into the rave scene in Denver in like the, like very late nineties, early two thousands and may have imbibed some substances and started making out with a bunch of people Amazing. At parties. Yes. And like, realized how much I really loved making out with a bunch of strangers, uh, and got into a dating quad during my, uh.

Was that junior year or senior year? Some point in high school I was in the dating pod. Oh wow. And it was fabulous and so fun. And of course we were all high schoolers, so it was doomed to failure and

[00:09:14] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[00:09:15] Dr. Liz: Um, went to college and in college did a bit of like hot one night stands and then trying to date and then hot one night stands and trying to date and feeling like this pull between the societal script of what I'm supposed to do to be a responsible adult and a good person and check the boxes versus like my own very kind of wild, untamed, feral desires.

And the way that I keep getting interested in new people before I'm done with old people. And so I. Very much chose the path of like, well do the thing you're supposed to do. And so I met someone shortly before I graduated college, who was about 10 years older. Mm. And we ended up getting married when I was 23.

[00:10:03] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:10:03] Dr. Liz: And it was not supposed to be a 100% monogamous marriage. We were supposed to be able to have threesomes with women, only women. Of course. God. You know how it goes. I know. Yes, of course. Yes. Of course. We can't bring another penis in. That would be too much. Yeah. Uh, but we had one threesome before we got married, and during that threesome, she and I had never hooked up together.

He had hooked up with her before, so we spent a little bit of time in the start, kinda like just playing with each other. Mm-hmm. And he was so deeply hurt by the fact that he was not directly involved during that time, that like, it got real weird and we never ended up having another threesome.

[00:10:39] Dr. Nicole: Wow.

[00:10:39] Dr. Liz: Um, he was, I mean.

If you think about like a 31-year-old who's wanting to date a 21-year-old, like you're gonna have questions. Yeah. Those are reasonable questions. Yeah. And you're right, you're absolutely right. Yes. Like he just, he was someone who was not looking for an equitable partner. And as I went through graduate school to become a psychologist, part of grad school that I think most people don't know about is that you spend a lot of it doing therapy with each other.

Mm-hmm. Like you practice the therapy modalities on your fellow students. You also do placements that we call practica or practicums, uh, where you're like doing it with actual clients or patients, but you do a lot of work with each other in your classes. Mm-hmm. And through a lot of that work, how I saw myself and what I could expect from a partnership and what I could demand in terms of how my partner treats me changed a lot.

And the more that I had boundaries and wants and needs, the worse that relationship got. Yeah. And. We ended up breaking up, um, because I cheated on him, which was not the best decision. Sure. But it had been a toxic and emotionally abusive relationship. And I think that I needed a way for things to end where I knew he wouldn't try to convince me to stay.

Sure. Because I didn't trust myself to really leave. Um, and after we broke up, I was free to do whatever I wanted. And I was involved with the Dickens Fair here in the Bay Area, which if you don't know, it's like a Ren Fair, but Charles Dickens London. Oh. So it's like hoop skirts at top hats So, so fun and like fun vibes.

Right. And so, yeah. A as, as is true of Refa, as we all make out with and fuck each other. And so, uh, I've yet to go to a party there for that. I, I should be going, the thing about Ren fairs is that the people who work them usually stay there all weekend. And so when the guests are gone, we have real wild parties Amazing.

With each other. The number of orgies I had in my tent during Run Fair anyway. Wow. Wow. Yeah. So we broke up. I was worried for a long time before my ex and I split that if I broke up with him, like nobody would ever want me, 'cause who's gonna want, uh, like 26-year-old divorcee.

[00:12:59] Dr. Nicole: Oh.

[00:12:59] Dr. Liz: And the answer was everyone.

A lot. Yeah. And so, yeah, I had a lot of fun doing a lot of dating and got to a point where I said like, actually I don't think I can do monogamy anymore. Um, I don't think that that is the right fit for me. And started more seriously exploring kink that I had. Gone to a handful of kink parties during college and like, definitely felt like a kinky person inside.

But got to really explore the scene more after coming outta that relationship, uh, and get more involved in it. And started to really like open up my world after doing the thing you're supposed to do of like getting married and being monogamous and settling down. Sure. And so then after grad school, I went into the Army active duty as a psychologist for five years.

And, uh, the military has a very different set of standards of things that you can do or like be caught doing. Uh, but the flip side of that is that your chain of command decides what you get disciplined for and whether you get disciplined for things. And so if you are someone who is really useful to their organization and they like you and trust you overall, if something happens, they're, they can take that latitude to be like, please don't do this again.

Don't make us discipline you instead of. Being forced to do something more serious. Um, and so even while I was in the military, I was doing non-monogamy stuff and still figuring out like what I wanted my life to look like after I got out of the time I was gonna be in the military. Mm-hmm. And could be more openly all of the things that I am.

Mm-hmm. Uh, when I first got into the military, it was still technically don't ask, don't tell. Yeah. But it was like the last year of it. So everybody was like, yeah, we're not really enforcing any of that anymore. Like it's on its way out. Okay. Nobody's gonna do anything about this. But it was still illegal for trans folks to serve.

And my first year as a psychologist in the army, I had a patient who was transgender. His whole unit knew. None of them cared. They were totally fine with it. Yeah. Because again, they can choose to enforce it or not. If they think this is a good soldier, they don't have an issue with it. They don't have to enforce it.

Interesting. So it was a very interesting experience in the Army and I think that. Being in the army was also a lot of what kind of like cracked open my gender stuff. Sure. 'cause in the Army I got to wear boy clothes all day and talk like a boy and email like a boy. I didn't have to use a bunch of like exclamation points and softening language.

I could just directly communicate. Yeah. And then if I wanted to at night I could put on makeup and a dress and like get all cute and go out and be more femme. Sure. So I got access to both worlds. Yep. And when I got out of the military, I think it made me realize like, oh, I actually do need both of these.

Like I need, I need all of this for my gender. Mm-hmm. And so once I got outta the army, I decided to do my private practice full time. Uh, which was the case up until about a year and a half ago working with sexual and gender minorities and been polyamorous and slutty and traveling around teaching stuff and yeah, being more involved in the kink scene and yeah.

You know, I think it's one of those things where your journey never really ends. Of course, of course. Yeah. Who I see myself as now, I think is someone that my, like high school teenage self would be both shocked by. And also not at all surprised by, 'cause it is, it's very much who I was, but I'm not ashamed of it in the way that I was back then.

[00:16:27] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:16:27] Dr. Liz: Like the person who wanted to go to these raves and make out with a bunch of people and have a bunch of fun is the person I am now. Yeah. I just don't feel like that's bad or wrong or like, I need to hide it or fix it.

[00:16:38] Dr. Nicole: Mm, mm-hmm. Powerful. Powerful. Uh, I love the bird's eye view too of the story. When you tell it with such, um, you know, you see the through line through all of it now, but, uh, I can only imagine as you're living in it, it is complex and confusing and joyful mm-hmm.

And crying. Mm-hmm. And the full range of the thing, you know? But when, when you look back, you're like, oh yes, this makes sense here, here, here, here, here. You know? But when you're in it, it's a Whoa.

[00:17:04] Dr. Liz: No. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Especially like the most recent for me, of course is gender stuff. Mm. And when I was first.

Kind of grappling with, you know, am I cisgender or am I not cisgender? There was a lot of fear of like almost stolen valor. Of like, I don't wanna say that I'm non-binary because it's a trendy thing, or because I'm trying to escape womanhood and misogyny. Sure. Or like, I'm not really that non-binary maybe.

And I think that there are elements of that through all those different pieces of my journey of like, well, yeah, like I like kinky stuff, but like, am I okay without it? Do I really need it? Like, yeah, I like making out with a lot of people, but like, shouldn't I just settle down and do monogamy? Isn't that the right choice?

And I think that for me, a big part of getting to where I am now has been a lot of allowing myself to just throw out what the culture says we're supposed to do and who we're supposed to be, and giving myself permission to just be whoever I am. And that's true also of like learning in my thirties that I had a DH, ADHD and like.

You know, if part of my A DHD is that I keep my snack foods in the living room because that's where I wanna snack instead of in the kitchen. That's cool. Yeah. If I need to keep, you know, cl uh, uh, like a copy of each of my cleaning products in each of the bathrooms so that I can use them when they're there, great.

Like finding the things that I need to do. With the way that I work, rather than trying to make myself be something else.

[00:18:30] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:31] Dr. Liz: Has been a huge part of all of those journeys for me.

[00:18:33] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Whose expectations are we living up to? Right, right. Being able to find your own values and live to those and find your own pleasure.

Uh, yeah, and I'm, I'm thinking too, as someone who also got my doctorate in clinical psychology, the field is not kind to many of these identities, so Oh, yeah, yeah,

[00:18:51] Dr. Liz: yeah. I can only imagine. Luckily I did my degree out here in the San Francisco area. Oh, that's different. Yeah. But even then, even in like our human sexuality courses or like our relationship therapy courses, I was the person bringing up like polyamory and kink stuff, you know?

And it's something that even in. The Bay Area was not as widely regarded. And even in like asec, the American Association of Sexuality Educators, counselors and Therapists, there's still a lot of people who highly stigmatize polyamory. Yes. Or who highly stigmatize consensual kink. Yes. And those are sex therapists.

The people who have devoted their career to talking about sex, talking with clients, still are weird about these things. It's fascinating to me that they could get that far and still be that way. Yeah.

[00:19:36] Dr. Nicole: Right. The listener cannot see my face, but it is shocked. A very upset Uhhuh. Yes, absolutely. I did mine in Chicago and there was definitely no mention of it, but I don't think it's, uh, the poly community does not seem as big as the Bay Area, which, so yeah, that's even more shocking.

Um, but let us not forget that homosexuality was in the DSM. Right? So for all the listeners who dunno that we can remember the roots of this patriarchal institution. Uh, so. I'm curious for you then, doctor, I love throwing the power title in there, so, uh, doctor, yes, doctor what, doctor, what question do you have for me?

Well, well, well then how do you understand clinically polyamory? How do you understand that historically, even culturally? Mm-hmm.

[00:20:27] Dr. Liz: Yeah. I have kind of two things to say about that, uh, that can seem contradictory, but if there's anything that DVT teaches us, it's that things can look like they're contradictory and exist at the same time.

Yes. One piece is that I think that humans in general tend to show a distribution across any given trait. Like there are people who are more morning people, there are people who are more night people, there are people who are more into spicy food and less into spicy food. When it comes to monogamy, non-monogamy, I think that some folks are probably naturally wired.

More monogamous like that's just kind of how they work. Some people are naturally wired, more non-monogamous. That's kind of how they work. A bunch of people could probably go either way, and I think it doesn't actually matter how we're wired. It matters what we choose. So this is the second contradictory piece.

Yeah. I have a lot of concern about arguments that are about like born this way or wired this way, because if it is about someone else doing something with their body that has nothing to do with you, why do you care? Yeah. If it's chosen, right? Like even if no person is born trans, why does it matter if they transition?

How are they affecting you in literally any way, right? Even if it is true that every person is born monogamous, why does it matter if people choose non-monogamy or vice versa? If everyone is born non monogamous, why does it matter if they choose monogamy? What I think matters the most about. How we do relationships, whether monogamous or non-monogamous, is, are we being attuned to our own boundaries?

Are we ensuring that we are attuning to the agency of the people we're in, we're in relationship with. Mm-hmm. That we're developing healthy interdependence rather than unhealthy codependence. Yeah. That we are giving them the freedom to make their own choices and the information they need to make those choices about how those would affect us.

Mm-hmm. I think that the culture we have teaches people this very strange model of expecting people to be able to guess exactly what you need. And also they should know exactly your script for how relationships are or what it means to be a partner, or you should never have to talk about it 'cause that means the relationship is broken.

Mm-hmm. Or you shouldn't ask for too much 'cause then you're needy and that's not okay. Mm-hmm. But like, don't ask for nothing. 'cause then it's your fault. You're never getting it. Right. There's all of these messages we get that are about. Suppressing what is true for us and not acknowledging that we have needs.

'cause like, again, we're all messy weirdos. We are all gonna have stuff we want to need. There's nothing wrong with wanting or needing something, it just may not be something a partner can give to us. Mm-hmm. And the more open we are about what it is we want, what it is we need, the easier it's going to be for us to find the people who can be that for us and do those things with us.

Mm-hmm. The more we're trying to be a person we aren't, the more we're going to find people who need us to continue being that person, no matter the cost. And I think that what I want for everybody is just more freedom of choice. Yeah. More access to the ability to live what feels right for them. As long as what they're doing isn't harming everybody else.

[00:23:46] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. The liberation of options. That's definitely something I always talk about to be able to freely choose, and I think that's where that question of free is, oh, something I could unpack for a lifetime. Oh my gosh. In terms, seriously. I know, right? It's like no one wants to have that conversation about maybe we don't have free will, but however important to talk about how, when we're.

Cultural beings, right? We are relational beings. And so part of our desires are shaped by our cultural context. We see that very easily with food. We even see that with interest in different types of body sizes across culture. Mm-hmm. Of what is attractive. And if you ask that person individually in the research study, they'd say, this is what I'm attracted to.

I feel this way. And also when you take that bird's eye lens, you can see how that's a reflection of their bubble and culture that they live in. Mm-hmm. And so we know historically there have been many cultures that have practiced lots of different types of relating. Right. Polygamy, polyamory, polyamory.

Like the full thing, you know, celibacy the whole thing. Right. Um, and we do know that the American culture comes from genocide. Right. And so we know that too. Yep. Along lineage and

[00:24:58] Dr. Liz: colonialization, right? Yes. Which Colonialization is largely about stripping away. The idea that culture even exists. Mm-hmm.

Right? Colonialism is all about creating white culture as almost like an absence of culture, but it is still present, but it's not acknowledged as being present.

[00:25:16] Dr. Nicole: It's so wild. I see that in the field of clinical psychology.

[00:25:20] Dr. Liz: So much. Oh my gosh. Oh God. So much.

[00:25:23] Dr. Nicole: Even the like addressing model, this is always one of my points.

The addressing model has on there for the listener who doesn't know, it's a way of, um, classifying identities of a, a client that you have and each one is different, right? One of them is for sexuality and so I appreciate that we have that conversation of what is the, the sexuality of my client. There's one for gender.

What is the gender of my client? What is also the relational orientation of my client? Now that is not something in there. And notice that's because we make the assumption they're monogamous and so we don't even have to. Define it. Hence a great example of the way that it just sits there very quietly as the norm.

And so you don't even have to name it. And I just, oh, I shake my fist at that. But long career ahead

[00:26:08] Dr. Liz: all the time. It, it's, for me, that comes up so much when people are talking about like books. They've read about attachment. Like I don't have a ton of people in my life anymore who aren't non-monogamous.

Sure. Because you know, that's just kind of how it goes usually. Yes, yes. But every once in a while I'll be talking to people and they're like, oh, have you read this book about attachment theory? And I'm like, yeah. So. Most books about attachment theory have this very strong presupposition of monogamy as the only model that can work.

And I don't agree with that. So it's tough for me to get into a lot of the way that attachment theory books work often. Of course, the big exception to that being Jessica Fern with Poly Secure. Right. Which I'm sure we've all read a million times. I know I have.

[00:26:48] Dr. Nicole: Um, yeah, she's been on the show. There's an episode listener.

If you go back in the catalog, it's there

[00:26:53] Dr. Liz: always. Jessica is brilliant. I love her. Yes. She's amazing.

[00:26:56] Dr. Nicole: Yes, yes. Um,

[00:26:58] Dr. Liz: but yeah, the, the way that there's this assumption of monogamy and also this like the, the cultural conversation around kinks and like what is considered a kink and like what is acceptable is so fascinating to me because loads of folks will think that like choking your partner is not kinky.

[00:27:17] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:17] Dr. Liz: But like. Tying them up is, and I'm like, in terms of risk, these are real different and not in the way that you think they are. Mm-hmm. So I think that there's this fascinating thing where, because kink is stigmatized, people try to come up with a reason that what they're doing is not kink, which then prevents them from accessing resources about like safety and negotiation.

Sure, sure. And doing this in a way that is healthier. Because if they acknowledge it as kink, then they would have to acknowledge they are doing something that is outside the norm. Mm-hmm. I think that's true to some extent for non-monogamy as well, and why a lot of people enter non-monogamy through hierarchical poly.

A lot of them enter it through swinging. A lot of them enter it through these highly heteronormative models that are as close to mono normativity as possible. Because the more you start unpacking and changing, the more you have to acknowledge that the foundations you've built so much of your understanding of relationship on are.

Faulty and that the foundation you may have built a current relationship on could also be really faulty. Mm-hmm. And need to be undone.

[00:28:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. The one penis policy, like you were saying. Right. Oh, one penis policy.

[00:28:32] Dr. Liz: Okay. I, it's just fascinating to me because of patriarchy, of course, there's so much focus on penis, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like the way that that carries over even into queer communities. Mm-hmm. Like I've known folks in lesbian community who won't sleep with people who have sex with people with penises, because that's dirtier and more likely to get STIs. Mm-hmm. And they don't say dirtier necessarily, but they'll say like, oh, the STI I risk.

And I'm like, but really though, like, how many of y'all are using dams? Like, let's be real. Okay. Yeah. That's a good point. You know, vulva on vulva sex is much less risky than stuff that involves an ejaculating penis. Mm-hmm. But it's not zero risk, and most of those folks don't take a lot of precautions.

Mm-hmm. Regarding risk. They get tested, but they generally don't use barrier protections. So like, what are we doing here? How are we understanding what risk is?

[00:29:20] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I don't think people get into the nuance of those things. They work with the bias and just run. And so I appreciate that conversation and I feel like a really big piece of this is, yeah, we can read Jessica Fe and we can read the Ethical Slut.

We can read all these books, but our culture has so much stigma around pleasure. Mm-hmm. Uh, and that's something with like poly secure, we get into so much of the attachment. Sure. But what about actually enjoying pleasure with multiple people and the immense shame that comes with that guilt. Mm-hmm.

Jealousy. Sure. When your partner's doing it with somebody else and all of that, but even as the person doing it, yeah. There is a whole psychological tunnel of complexity to go through for that, especially depending on where you start that journey. I, listening to your story, I was so jealous 'cause when I was in high school, I was wearing my purity ring and Oh, abstinence only education.

So I crawled out. Not a hole real deep. Yeah. And so I heard you say that. I'm like, damn, I'm very jealous. That's a fun starting spot. But hey, I'm here now,

[00:30:27] Dr. Liz: ironically, my dating quad came out of a Mormon dance. Oh. Um, so I had met, yeah, I, so there were two nightclubs in Denver you could go to if you were under 21 years old.

[00:30:39] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:30:40] Dr. Liz: Uh, or under 18. And one of 'em was the gay club. And so I'd met a bunch of gay dudes at the gay club. And one of 'em had been raised Mormon. So I went to a Mormon dance with him. And while I was at the Mormon dance, I met this really hot girl. Yeah. And we saw each other in the bathroom and she was rolling on ecstasy at the Mormon dance and we made out in the bathroom of the Mormon dance.

Wow. And then that kinda helped kick off the dating quad.

[00:31:04] Dr. Nicole: Yes. My mother is Mormon, so Yeah. I'm, I'm my God. Yeah, I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a lot. It's a lot. It is. And so, mm-hmm. I'm curious for you, when you look back on the journey, is there any big turning points that you remember and key pieces of insight that you could share with a listener who's still walking through and we're all still walking through that, I wanna be very clear, I'm definitely not done with that journey either.

Oh yeah, absolutely. I just go deeper. Uh, but yeah, like key insights that you look back and you're like, I wish I knew this when I started.

[00:31:36] Dr. Liz: Yeah. I mean, I think, I think a big one is that if you're trying to live your life. To like meet someone else's standards or make someone else happy. You are always going to feel like you're getting hollowed out.

So many of us are, especially those of us who are socialized as girls, are taught not to be selfish. Like to put other people's wants and needs and interests first and to make sure that we're making them happy. And when you do that, you're supposed to like somehow magically get it back from other people without even asking for it.

They're supposed to know that you need caretaking as well and exactly what kind you need. And like, I think that sets a lot of us up for trying to live the life that will make someone else happy and make the decisions that will make someone else happy and. Then we wonder like why we're not feeling that fulfillment.

We were told we would feel when we did the things, when we checked the boxes, you know, you met the person, they're attractive. Mm. They're good at this hobby, you share, you got married, you did the things, why aren't you happy? And it's because when we're trying to find a happiness that isn't ours, it's never gonna work.

Like it's never gonna fit.

[00:32:50] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:50] Dr. Liz: We can't just put on somebody else's idea of what happiness is and expect it to fit our hearts and our lives. And I think that with my marriage, that was one of the really big things I realized was that, you know, I had been trying to hit these check boxes that I was told were the right ones.

Mm-hmm. And I was trying to like show my parents that I was mature and an adult and I could do these things. Mm-hmm. And then I was trying to make him happy because obviously. He, when we met, we met through, uh, blues and swing dancing, and he's a very big deal in those communities. Yeah. And I was new to those communities.

Sure. Yet another power dynamic That's so great. That started our relationship. Oh no. Yeah. Um, but I thought of myself as not worthy of him because he's this big deal. He's so established, he's older, he's so attractive. What does he even see in me? And so I was trying to keep him happy to continue earning access to that like love and affection that I wasn't really even getting, um, and becoming someone that I didn't wanna be, because I hoped that if I could be it hard enough, then like the love would happen and the happiness would happen.

Like I just had to be good enough at being this person. I've been told I need to be at doing these things that'll make these other people happy, and then I'll be happy. And you can't do that. You have to be taking care of, you don't go like so far into the zone of like not giving a crap about anybody else.

Right. But almost everyone I've ever worked with in my therapy practice, the majority of people I know in my social circles, I'd say like 70 plus percent of us could stand to be significantly more selfish in the way that we approach so much of our life.

[00:34:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:37] Dr. Liz: Don't go out just 'cause your friends really want you to, if you need a night in, stay in.

Yeah. Don't be the one who does all the chores because your, your partner is feeling really tired. Like, if you want to, you can, but is that gonna work for you? Like, you need to be filling yourself up first and making sure that you're attuning to yourself. Mm-hmm. Because if you always give and give and give, you're gonna have nothing left.

I think another big aha moment for me was, you know, I got outta my marriage. I dated around a bunch, flooded around a bunch, and then I was dating someone who wanted to begam. And I was like, I can do this. I'm sure I can do this, I can do this. Right? And then about a month in, I was like, actually, I don't wanna do this.

I don't, I don't wanna do this. And had the conversation with them of like, look, I, this is not actually gonna be a good fit for me. Mm-hmm. I think you're great. If you wanna be non monogamous, we can do that. But like, I don't wanna agree to monogamy right now. I can't say a hundred percent forever. I never will, but like, that's not what I want.

[00:35:39] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:35:40] Dr. Liz: And that relationship ended and I got into another relationship. I'd been dating two people. They both asked me to be monogamous. I chose one of them. When I got out of that, the other one was like, Hey, do you wanna date? And I was like, yes. I just won't do monogamy though. Yeah. So is that gonna work?

Yeah. And he agreed, but it didn't, he wasn't in a space where he was really ready for that to be real.

[00:36:01] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:01] Dr. Liz: And yeah. You know, I think that. I tried really hard to like make it an easy introduction for him and like yes. Do things slowly and like did a threesome with his friend so that he could like see things were fine.

Sure. And it still just wasn't enough. Yes. And like now he's happily non-monogamous and that's great, but like he wasn't there yet. Yes. I needed him to be. Yes. And I think being okay with saying like, look, I hear that you need these things to feel comfortable. I can't offer those to you, so what are we going to do?

Like, what do you wanna do about that?

[00:36:37] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:36:38] Dr. Liz: Here are the things I'm willing to offer. Here are the things I'm not.

[00:36:40] Dr. Nicole: Yep, yep, yep, yep. Which. Ties back to your first thing about extending yourself towards people. I too have been in a relationship like that, or at least I'm projecting some similarity in your story of uh, someone who says they want to do this.

But when you get into the more practical live realities of it struggles a lot. And yeah, of course, being there to support someone, right. And also there's a certain point where I feel like I extended myself beyond and then also holding so much of their internal experience that it made it difficult for me to connect with any of my other established relationships without feeling so much pain or guilt or shame because of the place that that person was in and wanting to support them.

But then also, damn, this is impacting my whole ecosystem.

[00:37:26] Dr. Liz: Yeah. For me, I think a lot of it in that relationship in particular was almost feeling guilty because I didn't feel guilty saying no to the request for me to cancel stuff. Like he would get really upset and be crying and be like, can you please just not go in this date?

And I would say. I'm happy to support you in whatever way I can, short of canceling the date. Like I'm not gonna cancel the date I'm going to go on it. So like what else can we do? Mm. And I didn't feel bad about not saying yes to that at all. Sure, sure. And I felt bad. I didn't feel bad. Yeah. And I think that that's a thing that I think also is a struggle of like, I think it's hard for a lot of us to figure out, you know, is this something where I am overstepping and I'm like not being kind to my partner and I am.

Being calloused in a way that people have been to me in the past, or is this just that I get to say no? And that may be really upsetting. It may mean that our relationship has to change or end, but like I get to say no. And that's mm-hmm.

[00:38:28] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely what it is. Yeah. And then that provides the space for that person to meet you on their own terms.

Right. You're very clearly laying it out of, this is what I want to do, this is how I'm going to practice. I'm happy to help you, but this is where I draw my line and now you can choose to meet me here or not. Right. That's their freedom and their choice. So, uh, how did you sit with that guilt then, and how did you come to some peace with it?

[00:38:52] Dr. Liz: Yeah, I mean, I think, so for me, that relationship ended up ending because he couldn't. He started lying to me about being okay. About things.

[00:39:01] Dr. Nicole: Oh, no, no, no.

[00:39:02] Dr. Liz: So we, we started dating right before I went into the Army, and so we were going to be long distance. Okay. And, uh, he had come out with me for like, the first week of my officer's basic training, and then went back to California where he was living and I was hooking up, or I wanted to hook up with some people at basic.

Yeah. And we had an agreement at that point to like ask for permission, which I would never do now. Yeah. My buddy's like, no early mistakes, you know? Yes.

[00:39:26] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Totally

[00:39:28] Dr. Liz: youthful mistakes. Yes, yes. Uh, and so I had texted him and be like, Hey, I met this guy, you know, we made out, it was super hot. I wanna hook up with him.

Is that cool? Yeah. And he was like, oh no, I'm not ready. And I was like, uh, what? And we talked on video chat like every day for like three, four days.

[00:39:46] Dr. Nicole: Oh.

[00:39:46] Dr. Liz: And on the fourth day I just kind of snapped and I was like, I don't understand what is happening here. It has been clear from the start that I do not want to do monogamy.

I did these things to help try to get you ready for it. We are still having conversations every night where you are bawling your eyes out because this is a thing I actually want to do. What are we doing? Like what is happening here?

[00:40:06] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:06] Dr. Liz: And rather than him being honest about like, I'm not ready for this.

Mm-hmm. He started saying he was fine, things were cool, he was fine. And then I found out from a friend that he was not indeed fine. Oh. And so I broke things off because then it's these multiple layers of like, you actually don't want the relationship I can offer you right now. And you've been lying to me about it.

And I get that those lies came from this good place in theory of like not wanting to upset me and not wanting to acknowledge your own challenges here. Mm-hmm. But also like, I can't now. I can't trust your Yes, yes. I can't trust your Yes. Because I know that your yes isn't true.

[00:40:49] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:52] Dr. Liz: And that, you know, actually that's a big, a big lesson is like only be with people where you can trust their Yes and their no.

If they can't tell you no when it's hard or they can't be honest about their yeses to other people or in other situations like, do not go there. Do not go there. They need to fix that themselves before they can have a good relationship with anybody else. And like that doesn't mean that they don't deserve like kindness or friendship or even relationships while they're working through that issue.

But if someone can't be honest about what they are doing, what they want, what they don't want, you can't have a real relationship with them.

[00:41:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Hugely important sex of course for safety in all areas of relating to someone. Yes, absolutely. Lessons that you learn down the line, certainly. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm just thinking about.

So many lessons that you learn as you go deeper into it, of course. But there's a big difference between choosing to align with your values and, and work through the discomfort of jealousy and fear and say, I am okay with this. I am working through lots of complexity. I am noticing these responses. God, as someone who came from purity culture, right?

Like a lot of work. So like I am noticing this response. I am doing the somatic work and I'm aligning with my values. Okay. So I am fine. Mm-hmm. You know, so that's very different than with folding. So diffusion and some, yeah. There's have been a lot of exposure therapy. Yes. And so, yep. That is very different than completely withholding and not telling you anything and just giving you this mess that it's totally fine.

And then especially to hear from another person that they're struggling so much and can't come to you. I think this is an important topic of what cheating means in terms of expansive, relating, non-monogamy polyamory, because you know, culturally so many people look at it as having sex with someone, you know, emotionally cheating.

Wow. Whole thing. But we won't even go there. Oh God. I know, right? I can't. I can't. So issues the concept of emotional cheating as a queer person. You know? Like what, right?

[00:43:01] Dr. Liz: Yeah. What As a bisexual person, I'm like, is every friendship emotional, cheating? I don't understand.

[00:43:06] Dr. Nicole: Yes it is. And I'm cheating all over the place.

If that's the case, right? Like, yeah, that's the first path onto non-monogamy. You're like, wow. Oh no. Um, and yeah, and so I think. Cheating in expansive relating. I, I understand that to be more, uh, yes. Withholding key information that is needed for consent. Like that example, or actively withholding Yeah.

Information that's essential for the knowledge. I'm curious, how do you define cheating and more expansive relating?

[00:43:41] Dr. Liz: Yeah. I mean, I think cheating for me, it depends on how fine a like definition you want to get. Sure. Yeah. Uh, I think for me, I have a narrow definition of cheating, but a more expansive definition of like betrayal.

Mm. Sure. Yeah. Versus, because I think cheating for me is like, you had an agreement that you broke. Mm, sure. Yes. Particularly as relates to relationships with people other than the person who is feeling cheated on. Mm-hmm. Right. So like, if you agree to let people know when you sleep with someone new and you didn't tell them you slept with someone new, that is cheating.

Um, so breaking the agreement is like at the heart of it. Betrayal for me. I think he gets into those like lies of omission and also like lying about whether you're okay with something or like pretending things are fine or not giving information. 'cause sometimes people can not give information and it's not what I would necessarily consider cheating.

Like I just recently got out of relationship where, uh, the person I was dating has a, I'm now finding out historical pattern of sometimes just not telling their existing people that they started to see someone new. Even when that relationship is getting very deep, very quickly and that person knows about all the other folks.

And so you'll end up at a party. Uh, one of the other people who was seeing this guy, uh, ended up playing at a party with someone. And during pillow talk she was like, wait, your name sounds familiar. Are you dating this guy? And that's how she found out that they were in an apparently deep relationship and like.

Is that cheating? I don't know, because like they didn't have an agreement that he had to tell her about like people he saw or by a certain deadline. But also it's definitely betrayal. Like there's definitely betrayal there. Or like he would like, at least with me about that same relationship would give me information, but it was always incomplete information.

[00:45:40] Dr. Nicole: Oh,

[00:45:40] Dr. Liz: that like downplayed what was happening or tried to like maybe preemptively soothe what he thought I wanted. I don't know. I think that there's probably an element of like people pleasing that was underlying this. Yes. But the way that I like would find out information in other places and then be like, wait, that's not what you told me.

What you told me was this. And then he would get upset that I was upset. Which that for me was the, that was the end. I was like, no. Oh gosh, yes. That's, we're not playing this game. Like, yeah. So I think that like betrayal for me is when. You feel like you were not given the information you needed in order to be able to give like ongoing informed consent and assets to what is happening, where cheating is like a breach of agreement.

[00:46:29] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:29] Dr. Liz: And like often there's overlap, but sometimes there are things that are not quite a breach of an agreement, but like are definitely betrayal,

[00:46:36] Dr. Nicole: right? Absolutely. Absolutely. I appreciate that nuance. Again, the listener could not see my face, but I was just dropped during that. I was like, oh no, no. I would be so upset.

Oh my God. Oh yeah. When she told me that story,

[00:46:50] Dr. Liz: she told me that story after she found out that I had broken up with him and I was like, are you kidding me? That is. That is horrendous. I cannot believe. Yeah. That, that's how you found out he was seeing this person like that is Oh my

[00:47:02] Dr. Nicole: gosh. Shocking. Oh my gosh.

Yeah, absolutely. And so, uh, even the breath there for me, like completely holds. And I'm already just thinking about experiences I've had in my relationships where people have withheld information like that and it betrays your trust so hard and you feel it in your body the same way that my breath was just held there.

You then go through that ex you, if you keep choosing to be with that person, you hold that in your body. Or when you meet someone new and you remember that past experience, you hold it in your body. Gosh. And so, yeah, I, I appreciate that distinction between cheating and, uh, betrayal. And I think it's such an important conversation for relationship anarchist because there's always this, uh, wanting to dismantle assumptions, right?

And make sure that everything's very clear. And we've stated, and oh man, I'll remember this Valentine's Day with one of my partners. We were in a lot of reorienting with different relationships, and so there was tension between. So much going on and he was like, I really wanna get into like what we're committed to and make sure we don't have any assumptions, be extremely explicit.

And in my stress, there's no way to never have assumptions. I'm sorry, I shouldn't have interrupted, but like this is possible. That's exactly, yeah, that's exactly where I'm getting to because in my stressed out state, I was like, Cooper, this is impossible. We cannot name every single thing we, because him and I, we like deep theoretical people love him dearly.

You know, you so many years into this, but we're so theoretical that we could spend hours talking about this, which is like hot and erotic, but when you're in the complexity of it all, you're like. How explicit do I need to be? I didn't specifically say that you should tell me happy birthday. However, if you don't, I think I will feel betrayed.

Like as a very basic example. Like there's so much of the human experience that is inevitably honest assumptions. And so I, I see the beauty of the relationship anarchist and he was definitely playing with me at the time. 'cause he is like, you wrote your dissertation on this and now you're just throwing it away.

And I was like, yeah, fuck the smorgasbord, fuck all that shit. It's too much. You know, you're just way, way beyond my regulation, you know?

[00:49:17] Dr. Liz: Well, and I think that, like that example, so when I first learned of relationship anarchy back in the old days, so God, when did I first come across relationship anarchy?

That would've been like 2014. Yeah, 2013, maybe long time ago. So. The reason I ended up not identifying with relationship anarchy and identifying instead as solo Polly mm-hmm. Was because most of the relationship anarchists I ran into were relationship libertarians. Yes. It was very much a like, your feelings are not my responsibility.

Yeah. And like theoretically, yes, that is true, but also part of a relationship is that we should be considering how the things we are doing are going to impact the people we say we care about. If I don't care how my actions impact the people I care about, do I care about them? Like, is that actually. What is happening here?

You know, I, I think too, uh, all about love by bell hooks. Yeah. And the way that she defines love is as an action that is about expanding yourself, uh, in order to, you know, forward the spiritual growth of yourself or another person. Mm-hmm. Right? That it is active. It is about this active pre consideration, abuse and love cannot coexist.

Right. If you are purposely doing something to harm someone, you are not at that moment loving them because you cannot be loving them while you are harming them. And I think there is this way that the kindest, the kindest interpretation I can give is when we have been called out for something and are feeling defensive, it is easy to go to, well, you didn't tell me that I needed to x as a way to say like, I didn't think of it and you should have made sure I was thinking of it.

And there are times where that can be kind of true. Like things can go really far to one side of like, people being like, well, you should have known that you can't take this person to this restaurant you took me to for at least six months. Because otherwise it's like, our day doesn't count. And I'm like, that's probably too far.

Like that's, that's a lot. Yeah. I'm not gonna put like a six month kibosh on a restaurant. Right. But things like, wishing me happy birthday seems pretty like Right, right. Understandable to expect. Right. Or like, I think that in non monogamy land, if you're dating someone new, you should probably tell the people you've been dating that you're dating them as soon as possible.

Like, I don't know why you wouldn't. Mm-hmm. It's very strange to, to not do that. Yeah. Let's celebrate. Um, yeah. Right. How exciting. If you feel like you can't tell them that information, why are you in relationship with them? Right. Like, what is happening here? Like, where is this space people get to of like, I'm protecting them from this information?

Because it would be upsetting to them, or it might disrupt our relationship. But also I wanna be able to do this thing. So I'm telling myself that they never said I had to tell them. Mm-hmm. So it's fine if I don't because like I don't have to. Right. They haven't explicitly told me this is nothing I have to do.

And I think there's this like American independence thread underneath it. Mm-hmm. Of like, no one gets to tell me what to do. Yeah. I'm not a part of a society. Yeah. Like we're all interdependent. We all have to connect with each other. Like none of us is living in this world independently. Right. And if you're not thinking about how the things you're doing are impacting other people, you probably need to figure out why that is.

Mm-hmm. Like why are you so stuck within yourself that you're not understanding how you interact within this society, within this community? Yeah. Within your relationship bonds.

[00:52:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:48] Dr. Liz: Absolutely.

[00:52:49] Dr. Nicole: And so that's where the example you said earlier of, Hey. If I'm willing to meet you and support you, but this is my boundary.

I'm not willing to not go on this date. That's the more the kinder thing to do because you're being very direct with what's on the table and allowing that other person to choose and freely consent to the dynamic rather than the cognitive dissonance of holding all of that swirl of not telling the person.

'cause I think this or that, like that place is also not very fun. I feel like that's a really challenging place to go and explore any sort of pleasure because you're constantly holding that you're doing something, you're not telling or doing something you fear might hurt the other person. All. That's also not a fun place to be for your pleasure.

[00:53:33] Dr. Liz: It's a ton of precarity, right? Like you're setting yourself up to be caught. Yeah, it's very rare that people don't get caught at any of these things. Yeah. Like eventually it happens. It's a matter of when, not if most of the time.

[00:53:46] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:53:47] Dr. Liz: And so you're putting yourself in this position of having to like be alert to, am I gonna get caught today?

Is it now? Is it gonna happen this way? How's it gonna happen? Rather than just like being upfront. And Yeah, stuff may end. If you tell someone honestly what you're gonna do and you tell them honestly you've started seeing a new person, that may mean your relationship changes or ends. That is very real.

And I think that that fear, yeah, maybe a piece of what drives a lot of this behavior. Yes. But I think we need to acknowledge that if that piece of information would end the relationship, your choice is not, do I tell them or not? Your choice is, am I willing to do this at that risk? Or is that risk not worth it for me?

[00:54:30] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yes.

[00:54:33] Dr. Liz: Like that's your choice.

[00:54:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And we know how comfortable we can get in situations. And so the fear of the unknown, the fear of losing this relationship, all of that. And so people don't make a choice. But by continuing to not tell someone, you're making that choice and stepping into that inevitable.

Right. And I think it is important to name that there are people who actively get off on that dynamic. Oh yeah. Very totally. Actively love being bad, naughty, breaking the rules in that way. Not in a kink play way, but in a very harmful lack of consent way.

[00:55:04] Dr. Liz: Yeah. Yeah. In a way that like it gives them a feeling of power over others.

Right. Like they have all of this power 'cause they're hurting people and they don't even know it. I know, right? There's this, and I think that that is rare. I don't think that that is common. Yeah. But I do think that there are some people for whom that is a portion of the dynamic. Mm-hmm. I think the majority of people don't say things they need to be saying.

Less out of like narcissistic self-interest. Right. And more from a space of like fear of rejection, fear of loss.

[00:55:36] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:55:37] Dr. Liz: Internalized guilt and shame. I think that that is a lot of what drives it. That doesn't make it okay. But I think people often are not doing things for like nefarious purposes. Most people aren't sitting around thinking about the ways that they can hurt other people, but that doesn't mean we aren't still hurting people.

Mm-hmm. And I think it's important. I I, so the, the person that I was dating that I broke up with, yeah. When I first like, confronted him about stuff that I had found out that he had not been telling me. The first conversation we had about it was very good. And he took accountability and was responsible.

But then the follow-up conversation we had, he was like, it just kind of felt like you were making me responsible for your feelings. Oh. I'm like, so I wasn't making you responsible for my feelings and also. Like internally, I was like, how do I phrase it? That like, sometimes when you do things that hurt other people, they're going to be hurt, and that's not them making you responsible for your feelings.

That is them letting you know that you were hurtful. Like sometimes you were wrong. Sometimes you messed up. We all mess up. We all end up hurting other people. That happens. Mm-hmm. Yep. It is more helpful for us to get used to taking accountability for that and being like, I hurt you. I didn't do it intentionally.

That was not what I was going for. I recognize that I did it anyway. I wanna talk with you about like what happened and your experience of it, and like how we can do things differently in the future to try to make that less likely. Mm-hmm. I think we need to get better at being wrong and like acknowledging that we're wrong.

Mm-hmm. Because I think, again, that same defensiveness leads to this stance of like, well, but like, why were you so upset? It's hard when you're crying for me to like have a conversation and I'm like, people get to cry. Like those are, that's a, that's a thing people get to do. Yes.

[00:57:20] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Oh, a lack of accountability in that second conversation just kills me.

It kills me. I'm like, whoa. Okay. So much work and I admire you for taking a step back. I feel like, uh, coming from my background of purity culture, there is a long history of the one, the one, the one, and so I stayed in relationships. Way too long, because once I had had sex with one person, there was a second, I was like, well then damn, I messed the one.

I gotta stick on the two. You know, like I can't do any more than two. Right? Yeah. And so I think that there's a lot of unlearning from my journey of that to see a situation like that and be like, wow, we are in two different places. I wish you the best on your journey, and I'm gonna go in this direction because to extend myself would be way too much emotional labor.

And it's not really an equal match in that way. And that's, it's its own power dynamic and one often of emotional labor. And like, I, we don't need that. Right? Yeah.

[00:58:16] Dr. Liz: Mm-hmm. And I think like a vulnerable share I'll make here is that I, I am someone who. I worry sometimes I am too quick to be like, Nope, this isn't gonna work, and cut things.

I don't think it's probably true. Like I've talked with my therapist about this so many times. Yeah. But also it is a concern that I have that like, have I gone too far to this other side? Yes. You know, in my marriage I tried really hard to make it work at the cost to myself, but now am I calling things too quickly?

Am I giving people too few chances I get that or am I just, you know, that, that Maya Angelou quote Right. Of like when someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time. Yep. And like, am am I doing that or am I cutting people off? And I think it's hard to know. I think part of the beauty of the journey for me has been trying to get better at not knowing those things.

Yeah. And letting that be a continuing question. Mm-hmm. Of like that I continually check in with myself about. Okay. I'm feeling the urge to cut this. Is this me wanting to run?

[00:59:19] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:59:20] Dr. Liz: Is this something where I've already put in more effort than is fair? Is this something where I don't see that it can change in a way that would be helpful?

[00:59:27] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:59:28] Dr. Liz: Like where am I cutting this from? And is that something that's in alignment with my values and how I wanna be?

[00:59:34] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And that's really all the best we can do at the end of the day, right? Yeah. Because I too, have had that question in therapy and my couples therapy sessions, because the pendulum swing, right?

You get hurt once and you're like, never again. I'm out this time. This time I'm out, I'm running, I'm running so fast. You know? And it's like, yeah, okay. So that pendulum swings and comes back, and then that's right where you sit of like there's this deeper contemplation, right? Of trying to assess values, patterns, and just figuring it out.

And this time hoping that we're a little bit wiser, you know? And we'll see the signs a little bit faster. Faster. And I think for me, I found my, like you said at the beginning of this conversation, that the more skills you got in your self worth and communication and relational, all of that. The more, uh, conflict happened in that original relationship because you were changing and growing and therefore what you're attracted to changes and grows.

And so my attraction has been shifting and I'm learning to trust that more and more because I see some of those signs early on and my body shuts down and is not having a response in ways that, quite frankly, in the past it did to some of the most chaotic, toxic things because I was addicted to the dopamine drug of that sort of chaotic rollercoaster.

Mm-hmm. Right. And so all of that embodi work, yeah, like the embodiment work now to be attracted to more stability so that when someone takes accountability like that, I'm like, oh my God, my pussy is so wet. Like, please, please tell me again. And also, the more that I fuck myself better, the more confidence I have to walk away when those relationships aren't good because I know how to please my.

Right. Like, I'm wanna give myself good pleasure.

[01:01:17] Dr. Liz: Like, and also there's a line of folks like, if all I want is a fuck I, I can call a number of people and I'll be set. Like it's good. Mm-hmm. I think too, for me, a piece of it has been recognizing that I am very drawn at times to that like roller coaster relationship.

Ah, that like, you know, I'm an A DH ADHD or adrenaline junkie. Of course there's a piece of me that wants that like big hot burning, passionate thing. Yes. But at this point I'm able to like notice it within a couple weeks. Instead of it taking months or years, I'm able to be like, oh, oh Liz, you're back on your bullshit.

Let's, yeah, let's figure that out.

[01:01:56] Dr. Nicole: Is this salvageable or not? Mm-hmm. And that's such an important thing to talk about with non-monogamy because you could rollercoaster chase novelty for the rest of your life. And the deeper I get into that, I'm like, why not? You know, as long as well hold. As long as you're doing it with loving, kind intention for your existing relationships, the novelty of going to a play party and having a new partner to play with each night, like, great.

Go for it. Yeah. If that feels good. Right? As long as you're caring to the relational pieces of all the people in that ecosystem as you do it. Right. But yes, it's important to acknowledge because of our society and our context, uh, with romance and the romance myth and the assumption that that heightened state of, of quite literally chaos and uncontrollable, animalistic desire that society really puts on a pedestal.

So when you get insecurity

[01:02:47] Dr. Liz: Yeah. Like the, the model of like, oh, I'm so excited. Love is built on this like. Fear and insecurity that is not

[01:02:54] Dr. Nicole: sustainable or healthy. Yes, absolutely. And so you can chase that in so many different relationships. And I think that's something that I walked into at the beginning of my expansive relating journey, is finding this novel experience with someone and being such a somatic therapist, so deep in the body and being like, well, look, I'm really excited over here at this new person.

My pussy is so wet, and I've had way more habituation to my established partners. And I said, well, I gotta listen to the body. Look, the body's really happy over here. Not really understanding the monkey brain and novelty and stimulus and the dopamine pathway. Like, oh, that was a lesson to learn.

[01:03:36] Dr. Liz: Mm-hmm. Yep.

[01:03:37] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:03:38] Dr. Liz: And figuring out for you where that balance is. Right. I think. When I was first moving, like fully into the non-monogamy world, there was a lot of talk of like, polyamory is not just about sex. And I'm like, but it's also about sex. Yes, it's about sex. And like, can we, can we acknowledge that? Like there are definitely ace people who do polyamory.

Yes. That is super valid. Right? Absolutely. Ace people are queer. Ace people can be polyamorous. Not everybody has polyamory sex, but like most of us are in it also for fucking, and that's okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's also okay to wanna have casual sex in polyamory like this. The whole sacred circle of sex being within like a committed, loving relationship.

Mm-hmm. Doesn't die out completely for us when we move into polyamory. Yeah. Even though it should, you can have great, healthy, fulfilling sex with someone you never talk to again. You can have great, healthy, fulfilling sex with someone. You don't speak the same language as like, we need to get out of this idea that like the only good, best sex is with the person you're in a relationship with and you love them and blah, blah, blah.

It's only valid if you're doing a lot of love relationships if you're just fucking around. That's not real polyamory. Are you doing ethical non-monogamy in a way that to you is about open to multiple loving relationships? You're doing polyamory. I don't care if most of what you're doing is fucking, that's also polyamory and that's okay.

[01:04:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. It's the years of societal conditioning that we talked about early in the conversation that are so deep within our unconscious about what's good, bad or otherwise, and it is deep. And the reality is these are some of the most crucial aspects of our lives, right? People orient their whole life to romantic partners and sexual partners, and when they have been told a certain narrative that it's supposed to look like this, you know, specifically within our culture, monogamous, heterosexual committed relationship, you've oriented your whole.

Whole life around that, which can be beautiful. However, you can also look at other people who have different lives and feel, I think an unconscious level of they're doing that, but I'm over here. I think that's usually where the anger comes from is a bit of like, mm-hmm. You know, the people who are happy in monogamous relationships don't give a fuck what other people are doing.

It's the people that are really in it, that I think are kind of angry about it, and they see someone else with their freedom. You know, queerness, we see this a lot too. Oh yeah. Um, and they go, no, you can't do that. And you're like, why do you care what I do? You know?

[01:06:07] Dr. Liz: Yeah. And I think too that another aspect of this is like for most adults in our culture, the primary zone where they get play is sex.

Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. And as humans, we need play. Oh my God. Like we need play. It is required for our brains and our bodies to have play. And most of us as grownups, don't let ourselves do that. Outside of like maybe video games, maybe board games and sex. And that means that this becomes like a fulfiller of multiple overlapping human needs of like connection and pleasure and touch and play and all of these things.

And that's a huge burden. Yes. To put on it. It's,

[01:06:51] Dr. Nicole: yes, it is. Absolutely. I'm exhausted just hearing that. I'm like, wow, that weight of that is huge. Right. And I feel like play, ideally, ideally we get. Play in sex. I feel so many people are stuck on the script. The intimacy escalator of sex looks like this foreplay, which is a word I wanna kill.

Oh god. You know what I mean? Whoa. Uh, so like, yeah. Ideally we're having play there, but you know how many people myself in the past included who were performing scripts?

[01:07:24] Dr. Liz: Oh yeah. Absolutely. I mean, myself as well. Right. And I think, especially once I was married, you know?

[01:07:31] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:07:31] Dr. Liz: It was all scripts, you know?

Mm-hmm. And I think kink is beautiful because it's hard to do not play kink. Yeah. And I think the beautiful thing about a lot of the non-monogamy community for me, has been how playful most of the people that I know through it are when it comes to things like sex and the ways that they relate with each other's bodies.

Yep. Whether it's more platonic touch or more sensual or sexual touch. Mm-hmm. You know? The, when I, when I hear of like research or comments from folks who are still deeply in the mainstream of like, oh, you were laughing during sex. And I'm like, why would you not laugh during sex Bodies are ridiculous.

The sounds they make. Like, come on now. Yeah, yeah. Right. Like of course you're gonna laugh during sex. Why were you Yeah, yeah. Right. Or like, you do go goofy stuff sometimes. That's fine, that's great. Let's do it. Right. Like, why, why is there this idea that you need to be this like perfect, polished, exact kind of person?

Yeah. And you know, the research looks a lot, especially in like women at self-monitoring during sex and the way that they're like zoomed out trying to imagine how they look and that pulls them outta their pleasure right. And pulls them outta their own sensation. Yes. And I think for men, that's probably also rising with a lot of the manosphere bullshit, um, about like how they're supposed to look and how they're supposed to perform.

And so you get people who are interacting with each other. In the way they think they're supposed to, whether that feels good for them or not. Mm-hmm. And like, what is the point? Why? Mm. Like why? Why would you do that? Mm.

[01:09:07] Dr. Nicole: Relationally we wanna be accepted. But that's not acceptance that's fitting in, which is different.

Yeah. I, I, yeah, I agree. I agree. I think it's in the psyche is that on an unconscious level, you're like, well, if I do this kind of sex, then I'm normal and I am emotionally like, uh, evolutionarily, I'm in the. Heard, and I'm normal and this is great and safe and I don't have to wake up the next day wondering if I'm too much, if I've done something too weird, all the things right that are tied up with that.

So if I do A, B, C, D, I'm accepted. And so, uh, it just breaks my heart. And I think, you know, when you had said earlier that most of your community is nonmonogamous, I think this is one of the biggest things is that we know from psychology that we internalize all of the relationships around us. Of course, the relationships to the bigger systems, all of that, but also the people in your circle, right?

And so when you are looking to have more play in your life, to have other community members that also value play in their sex life that are telling you about that crazy farm scene they did with a corn cob dildo. And you're like, yeah, someone was mooing and it was. Great. And you're like, amazing. Yeah.

Thanks for explaining my horizons of what was possible. Right? You find corn, pop dildos, Google search, you know, you're like, hmm. Well, you know, there's, there's so many vegetable deals, but flags. I'm just telling you, you look for it. It's there. It exists, right? And so

[01:10:32] Dr. Liz: it all exists

[01:10:32] Dr. Nicole: when you're around that, that starts to spark more conversation.

I know the listeners who are tuning in, right? Coming into conversations like this where we talk about that. The Oh, the dog. Hi Jojo. Come up. Oh, the dog. Go. Hello. Yeah.

[01:10:47] Dr. Liz: Sometimes she likes to come sit with me in my chair.

[01:10:49] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, so sweet. So sweet. Pets are a great reminder of play my fat cat. She's always, she's play and, and, and meat.

She wants play and meat, you know, just wet foods.

[01:11:00] Dr. Liz: Well, I think too, you know, finding people who are playful, just more in general in their day to day. Yes. Uh, one of the things that I hate about our current cultural moment is like. The demonization of cringe or like the idea of cringe and I'm like, I'm cringe as fuck.

You need to kill the part of you that cringes because like, why are we trying to be cool? Why are we trying to be like cynical and detached? That is such a sad way to live. Like that is such a like non-binary clothes or gray kind of way to live, you know? Mm-hmm. Be weird, be goofy, be cringey, be dorky.

Don't be everybody's flavor. Yeah. There is no such thing as everybody's flavor. Like be you and you'll find your weirdos.

[01:11:41] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And that takes some deep trust. 'cause sometimes I see people on the internet and they're a vibe and I'm, I'm like, wow, this is not my vibe. But that's a vibe and they have lots of people.

Wow, okay. I mean, maybe I should be more of my own vibe. You know? It's, yeah. It's hard to trust into that because of years of bullying or whatever experiences we've had earlier in life that have made that really scary. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:12:06] Dr. Liz: Yeah. And I, yeah, just find like find the play you can do. And I think, yeah, play is a really good opening point for expanding yourself sexually and in kink because you have to be willing to be weird and uncomfortable and wrong and deal with all those emotions if you're going to expand yourself in those realms.

And play is a great way to get better at that, you know? I think. Yeah. We live in an unfortunate time where like everybody's like, oh, you do that as a hobby. Are you gonna sell it? Are you gonna monetize everything you do for fun?

[01:12:43] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Is everything

[01:12:44] Dr. Liz: you do for enjoyment about monetization or efficiency or productivity?

Yes. And like, no. Throw that off. Throw those chains off. Yes. Have fun. Just play, get used to being bad at things. Make bad art because you want to, like, it doesn't have to be good. Let go of being good at things and that's how you'll be able to find things that you enjoy.

[01:13:03] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And take small steps with it.

Right? It's important to understand that our, the neuronal pathways that we don't use, right? It's like a muscle. You have to keep flexing it to go deeper into that. So if play is, is new and novel and you haven't really done that, it's gonna feel uncomfortable. It's gonna feel like lifting a super heavy weight with no muscles yet, but you keep building it through small steps.

Small steps, small steps. And there's a, a real reason why a good chunk of my community is. Theater people, which I've never done. Oh yeah. However, I started connecting with one and then flew into that community. And they're all play, they're always joking. And at first I'd always be like, they just make jokes so fast.

I don't, I don't know how to chime in. My social anxiety be flying. I'd just be like watching all of them. But I can happily report, I now jump in with jokes. Yep. It's been a growth edge.

[01:13:53] Dr. Liz: Yeah. I mean, I come from a theater background. Yeah. Okay. So it is, you do enough like improvisational theater stuff and like you're a lot of fun at parties.

Yeah. 'cause you train your brain to work differently, right? Like you train your brain to see these patterns, to like put things together, to be able to link things, to like phrase things in a way that hits.

[01:14:16] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:14:16] Dr. Liz: And I think, again, you have to be willing to be bad at it. To get good at it. Yeah. And I think that that's where I see a lot of people get blocked is they don't wanna be bad at something.

Mm-hmm. They don't wanna feel like they're failing. They don't wanna feel like. It's not coming naturally to them. Mm-hmm. And like it didn't come naturally to those folks too. They just were probably bad at it in their teens when they were bad at everything. So it didn't feel as challenging as it does to you now.

Exactly.

[01:14:41] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. Exactly. So small steps. Small steps. Yeah. And I'm curious too, if you were to look back to your younger self, is there any piece of wisdom or advice that you would impart especially about your sex life that you would share with your younger self?

[01:14:58] Dr. Liz: Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing would be that it's okay to want all the things you want and to do those things like you don't need to limit yourself.

You don't need to feel guilt and shame that you're not following this script you were handed. You can make out with a dozen people at the rave 'cause you're on ecstasy and that is great. That's not even just okay, like that's a beautiful way to experience this world. Right? Like how many people. Get to share that much with that many people.

Like those are beautiful moments of expansion and exploration and joy. Mm-hmm. That I got to have. Yeah. Because I was doing things I was not supposed to do.

[01:15:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:15:41] Dr. Liz: And that's okay. Yeah. We all get to have lives that are imperfect, where we're not always doing the thing we're supposed to do. We're not always at our best.

We're not always following the exact right set of decisions. Sometimes that's where we find the most beautiful things, that sometimes that's where we find the lessons we need to become who we are and who really want to be. Mm-hmm. Let yourself just be weird and messy and do the stuff and just let it all be like, it doesn't need to be something that is good or bad.

You're always making the right choices. Make bad choices. Mess up. Yeah. That's where the beauty is. Right?

[01:16:22] Dr. Nicole: Right. Absolutely. That's what it means to be human.

[01:16:25] Dr. Liz: Yeah.

[01:16:26] Dr. Nicole: Uh, a lesson I'm always telling myself in the mess of the chaos, I'm like, where am I? And why? You know, you're like, oh, I'm human. I'm a human. Right?

[01:16:36] Dr. Liz: Same.

[01:16:36] Dr. Nicole: got it.

[01:16:38] Dr. Liz: I think a lot of folks think that those of us who are like therapists and sex educators and have been doing it a while, they're like, have it figured out and we're good. And like it's just stuff's never a problem for us. Wow. And like part of why in my book I wanted to make sure I included a lot of stuff I messed up, was to try to start unpacking that for people that even those of us who have been doing this a while, even those of us who think about it and talk about it all the time, even those of us who help other people with these things, we still.

Suck at it. Sometimes we still mess up. We still struggle. We still have our own internalized stuff that we're continually going through cycles of unpacking and exploring. Mm-hmm. Because it's not ever a one and done. You're not ever like, oh, monogamy, unpacked, done, finish exactly like it. It's just gonna be there for you forever.

Because every movie you watch, every TV show. Which like as an aside, I have so many thoughts about this. Like new trend of reality shows where people microdose, non-monogamy to reinforce their monogamy. Yes. Like I love those garbage shows so much, but also the like Wow. Just

[01:17:45] Dr. Nicole: wow. Wow. I know. I'm like, put me in as a the therapist on their please.

Right. Like, I'm so ready. Like put me in. Oh my God. Seriously. They wouldn't want that. We'd make it more calm. No. You know, like they want the drama. No, I know. I know. Yeah. But I'm like, I'm ready. Oh yeah. It's so true. So, so true. And I think it's important too, in that journey, we're always looking forward.

It's like, I wanna keep going, I wanna keep going, I wanna keep going. And something I have to remind myself and many of my clients is also look backward and see how far you've come. Yeah. And so when I do look that far back, I realize, wow. Damn, these days I've come harder than I've ever done in my entire life, and I am mm-hmm.

So excited for the pleasure that is coming in the other direction. I know it's not all about orgasms, but those orgasms are gonna be wicked. Look, look,

[01:18:34] Dr. Liz: I had, I had an amazing, I have a semi long distance, uh, lover, sweetie. What are words? What are words? Yeah, I hear you. Yeah. Um, who I get to see like once a quarter.

Yeah. And the last time he was out here, we had like a month's worth of sex in one night. Oh. And like. He fucked me up against my front door. Yes. He fucked me on my dining table. Yes, he like it just everywhere. And so now there's all of these pieces of my life that are associated with all those hot fucking orgasms.

Yes.

[01:19:03] Dr. Nicole: Ugh. So good. It's so good. Magical, magical. Ugh. I'm so, so grateful that you came onto the show and really opened up vulnerably to all of the nuance and the complexity of this. Because something that I really love about the podcast space is to be able to hear our breath and the laughter and the voice when we share these things about how good this can feel and how complex and devastating it can feel at the same time.

And so I think it's so empowering when we get to have people like you who are very vulnerable about that journey and what it's like in all of its entirety, the pleasure and the pain, which are often so deeply connected. Right. And so, I'm so grateful that you came onto the show today to share all of this.

[01:19:45] Dr. Liz: This was so much fun. I'm so glad that you reached out about this. This has been great.

[01:19:49] Dr. Nicole: Oh, so good. Well, I'll check in with you and take a deep breath together as we're coming toward the ends of our time,

and then I'll see if there's anything else that you wanna share with the listener. Otherwise, I have a closing question for you.

[01:20:09] Dr. Liz: I think the one last thing I would share is that like what you think makes you weird is actually the thing that makes you like, that's your superpower. That is like the best thing about you.

Mm-hmm. And anyone who gives you shit about it is not your person. Right. Yeah. Be your weirdo self. We will all find each other, I promise. Like we are out there. We will find each other. Mm-hmm. Don't cut yourself into the shape you think other people want. Just be you. Yeah.

[01:20:36] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And that's revolutionary.

Personal is the political, so it's right there. It

[01:20:42] Dr. Liz: God, especially now. Seriously.

[01:20:44] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Uh, well the closing question that I have for you that I ask everybody on the show is what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:20:59] Dr. Liz: There's so many things that, so normal that people think are not, um, I know.

Okay. So it is. During sex, a lot of times you may need to take a break. Oh God. Maybe you get a cramp. Maybe you need some water. Yeah. Maybe you just need to go to the bathroom. Yeah. Like, it's gonna be fine. I think there's a lot of like, it's gonna break the moment. No, it's not. If the moment is any good, you'll fall right back in.

I promise. If the moment is that easily broken, it wasn't there anyway. Like, take the break. Just pay attention to your body. Yes. If you're someone like I'm, I'm a larger body person, I identify as fat. Mm-hmm. Uh, smaller end of the scale. But on the fat scale, if you need to just move your fat, move your fat.

If you need to just like, take a moment, take a moment. If you're getting a cramp, say you're getting a cramp, like just. Take the pause, take the break, communicate the thing. Honestly, it will all be fine and it'll be so much better.

[01:21:52] Dr. Nicole: Right? The liberation of your voice quite literally about those things.

Maybe you're like me recently and having a spiral shame of, uh, mono normativity as you're doing stuff and you gotta pause, you know? And all of that is so, so valid. And I feel like it often translates into the most pleasure because you're fully in the moment with all of the complexity there. You're not having to wonder if I have to hide or hold this piece back.

You can put it into the dynamic and therefore release it and come back to the body and back to your pleasure. I mean, there's so much weight lifted when you're able to name that in relationship and not be attached to it. And then just keep flowing. And you're right, the best relationships, the best connections will easily pick that up.

They will laugh with you. They will cry with you. They will hold you. Right? And those are the people that we want to be fucking.

[01:22:41] Dr. Liz: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yes. They, they fuck better anyway. The ones who like don't want you to share your truth, they're usually not good at it. Exactly. Like you get much better fucking from the people who are like, oh, you've got a cramp.

Do you wanna stretch it? Do you need some water? Exactly. I got electrolytes. What do you want? Yes. Yes. 'cause then we can go for a long time.

[01:23:00] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yes. Uh, well it was such a joy to have you on the podcast today, Dr. Liz. Thank you so much for joining me. So much fun and Oh yeah. I'm sure everyone's like, where can I connect?

[01:23:12] Dr. Liz: Yeah. Yes. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it so much. Uh, my website is dr liz powell.com. Yeah, you've got links to all my stuff there. I'm on pretty much all the social medias as at Dr. Liz Powell. I don't do TikTok. I have the account. Maybe someday I will. I don't know. I just, I don't do it either.

I can't, it's not, it's not my life right now. Yeah, who knows. But yeah. At Dr. Liz Powell, all the social medias, dr liz powell.com. If you want some cute merch, I like you can have a mug that says Slut on it. Amazing. It'll be great. Yeah, have a great time. But yeah, that's where you can find me.

[01:23:47] Dr. Nicole: Uh, yeah, I'll have all of that linked in the show notes below.

Dear listeners, if you're looking for it, you can just go to the show notes. And again, thank you. Thank you so much for coming onto the show today. It was such a joy.

[01:23:58] Dr. Liz: Thank you. This is great.

[01:24:01] Dr. Nicole: If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast, and head on over to modern anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode.

I wanna thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.