269. F**king Your Friends is Mutual - Dominatrix Empress Wu

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole. Leave her hanging all strung up.

On today's episode, we have Empress Wu join us for our conversation exploring the psychological edge of power exchange. Together we talk about finding other cuckoo bitches, nutting off mic, and the politics of the taboo. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I'm so delighted that you are here, so grateful that you are ready to go deeper and explore your pleasure with today's episode.

My name is Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, author of The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and the first research study on relationship anarchy, and founder of the Pleasure Practice, where I teach students from around the world how to craft pleasurable sex lives and non-monogamous relationships.

Dear listener, oh my gosh, you are gonna love this episode. Wow. Wow. You want an inside peek of the psyche of a powerful dominatrix and a psychotherapist? Here it is. We lift up the curtain. Come take a little peek inside our world and our minds. And especially if you are a intellectual in the terms of the kink and the power dynamics, you're gonna love this.

Or if you're an emotional space holder or healer, wow, there's a lot of similarities between Empress Wu's work as a dominatrix and my work as a psychotherapist. And yeah, we get into it, all the nitty-gritty and the insight and the wild ride of this work. And also, I just wanna say congratulations to Empress Wu.

Happy 10 years of sex work. What a big milestone. I hope you are celebrating your powerful, bad-ass self. To all of you other sex workers out there, thank you for the work that you are doing for our collective and this movement. It is so, so, so, so deeply important. So thank you, and my heart extends to all of you.

All right, dear listener. If you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and all of my free worksheets and resources at modernanarchypodcast.com. That's also where you're gonna learn more about my upcoming group, the Pleasure Liberation Non-Monogamy Group. This is my 16-week group program where you, dear listener, you learn all of the tools and the trade that I have learned working with non-monogamous clients for years now.

I realized there were a lot of patterns. Patterns in this work, in the place where our psyche goes, the individuation journey, the narratives that we make, the somatic emotional experience of non-monogamy. I noticed so many patterns in my work that I created a program, and now I teach students from around the world how to craft truly pleasurable non-monogamous relationships, okay?

So you can learn all about that, all about how to join the groups, and come work with me and students from around the world so that you can craft the most pleasurable dynamics possible. So all that's in the show notes below, dear listener, and I'm excited to see you in my classroom soon. And I also wanna say thank you to all my Patreon supporters.

You have made this show free, a free educational research to share with listeners from around the world for the last five years, so my heart and in gratitude all extends out to you. So thank you, thank you, thank you. And with that, dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love, and let's tune in to today's episode

Dear listener, there's a space already waiting for you where you are invited to let go of every old script about sex and relationships and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure, empowerment, and deep alignment. I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together, we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real transformation possible. And I'll be right there with you, guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure and visit modernanarchypodcast.com/pleasurepractice to apply.

And the first question that I love to ask each guest on the show is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:05:31] Empress Wu: My name is Empress Wu. Uh, I use all pronouns. I am a culture activist and dominatrix based in New York City. I primarily in all of my work love engaging in the exploration of, like, conflict, what that does to our psyche, psychosexual dramas- Mm

new ideas about, like, kinship and connection and intimacy. For the listeners who are at home, a visual description of me is that, uh, I am, like, a tan East Asian woman, femme-presenting. I wear glasses. I have bangs that are not quite micro bangs, and dark hair and tattoos.

[00:06:18] Dr. Nicole: Amazing, and it's such a joy to have you back on the show today.

Woo.

[00:06:23] Empress Wu: I'm waving right now.

[00:06:26] Dr. Nicole: Woo. Oh, tell me, how have you been in the last five years? What has changed for you since we last recorded? I know.

[00:06:37] Empress Wu: I feel like everything has changed-

I know. ... since we last recorded.

[00:06:45] Dr. Nicole: I'm sure that you can absolutely- Still powerful- Yes ... still a badass. Yeah.

[00:06:47] Empress Wu: Um, I'm sure that you can say the same, but- Mm ... I feel like obviously, like, the world has changed and shifted. I definitely feel like I myself as an individual have changed and shifted both independently and in relation to the world.

Mm. I was just talking to you prior to the start of this recording, but I was, like, listening to our, our, like, bits and pieces of, like, our last episode when we first recorded back in 2021, and I'm- Mm ... kind of blown away at, like, thinking about what my life was like back then and how much my life has, like, advanced and changed and, like, the pitfalls that I ran into and, like-

[00:07:25] Dr. Nicole: Yeah

[00:07:25] Empress Wu: all, all of the different moments in which I've, like, made massive mistakes and all the things that I've, like, learned from those mistakes, also the things that I've, like, developed and accrued since then. And it's just really cool to be, like, joining you something like four, four and a half years later and to be thinking about how we each independently have, like, grown and evolved and what it took- Mm-hmm

to, like, get there.

[00:07:49] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. An ever-evolving process, truly. You spoke to the many ways our identities die.

[00:08:00] Empress Wu: Yeah.

[00:08:04] Dr. Nicole: Good, bad, and otherwise, right? What identities for you have died, and what has been born in its place?

[00:08:13] Empress Wu: I mean, I think that I went on, like, a very interesting journey around, like, my own queerness- Mm

during between the last time that we recorded and, like, this time that we recorded. I think that I was really- I was, like, in a place last time where my queerness felt like it had to, like, really barge its way out and, like- Sure ... fight its way out to m- maintain dominance, like, within my own body. And now it's something that I feel so, like, confident and settled and, like, as, like, a part of me that it feels like something that no longer exists in, like, the fight within my own body, but mostly actually exists in, like, the ways in which, you know, queer people are at odds with the world, especially in the current administration.

Mm-hmm. So it is, like, something that I have, like, a different relation to these days. I feel Like really, I'm in like a very, very lovely and secure relationship these days- Mm-hmm ... which is really awesome. I love that. Um, yeah. I'm like really, really happy about that. Good. And I feel like all these questions about like relationship and intimacy and like romance, like being settled, not in a way that feels static, but settled in a way that still feels like continually like curious and questioning, but no longer insecure.

Mm. And now I can like relate to the world in a different way. Oh, sure. Which has kind of been impacting everything in my life, honestly. Yeah. Yeah. Not that everything, you know, originates in the romantic relationship, but it does have impact. Like the way you are in one place of your life is like the way that you are everywhere.

Yeah. And yeah, that is like a really, really cool feeling. Yeah. So I specifically this year have been like having a lot of questions for myself. I'm coming up on the 10-year anniversary of me in sex work.

[00:10:09] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:10:09] Empress Wu: Um, that's going to happen actually probably around the time that this episode comes out- Mm ... I will be celebrating 10 years.

[00:10:15] Dr. Nicole: Congratulations, future you.

[00:10:18] Empress Wu: Thank you.

[00:10:19] Dr. Nicole: Uh-huh.

[00:10:20] Empress Wu: Um, I always like to publicly refer to like me, myself, like the person that I know myself as, when I'm like talking about Empress Wu as management.

[00:10:32] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:10:32] Empress Wu: And management- Empress- ... has

[00:10:33] Dr. Nicole: lots of ideas. Yes.

[00:10:36] Empress Wu: And um, so management's birthday is like three days after Empress Wu's birthday.

[00:10:43] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:10:43] Empress Wu: So, uh, we celebrate birthdays like kind of in tandem, which is-

[00:10:48] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:10:54] Empress Wu: Yeah. Of course Empress Wu would be a Gemini. Oh. Yeah. I think that that's going to be a really, really fun, um, examination and like shift. And I feel myself like really... Like I, I'm feeling every single one of those 10 years. You know what I mean?

[00:11:09] Dr. Nicole: Oh,

[00:11:09] Empress Wu: yeah. It's very interesting.

[00:11:12] Dr. Nicole: I can... Yeah. Yeah. And I'd love to talk about it.

I mean, even the, the personal and the professional, which is so deeply intertwined, right? In terms of- Yeah ... the, the queerness and, and so much the society repressing that aspect of ourself that you have to really bulldoze through that- Yeah ... with such force to get out of it. Especially depending on your context of your family dynamics and wherever you're coming from in terms of that.

I know we haven't talked about that, but if that's even more restricted, then you really have to come through flaming, right, through it- Yeah ... to like get out there. And then, like you're saying, it's so much of a, a survival mode in the body though, where you're like pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing. To get to a moment where you can feel more settled in that and more safe, and I can only imagine that that really coincided as you're doing sex work, right?

Each, at, at least for me as I'm doing sex therapy, like I'm constantly evolving how I live my own life as I help other people. So I can only imagine that every scene you're a part of, every moment, every time you see someone crack open on your table- Mm-hmm ... it deepens your own relationship. And so I can only imagine just the places your mind has gone in the last 10

[00:12:30] Empress Wu: years- Totally

as you integrated all of this. Yeah. And I also have been thinking a lot about this in terms of like the therapeutic practice. Mm. 'Cause I, I feel like I take a lot of inspiration from therapists, and especially like the professionalism of therapists.

[00:12:41] Dr. Nicole: Sure, yeah.

[00:12:42] Empress Wu: Sex workers don't necessarily have like a licensed, like a, a book or a manual on how to like conduct yourself professionally.

Right. And so I think we kind of have to like take it from other professions or like craft our own and create something of our own design. But I have been thinking a lot about like, oh, I wonder... Like, like therapy I understand is like a discipline and a science, but also I can under- imagine it as like also such a creative act as well.

You know? Like, it really takes everything that you bring to the table and like your specific energy and the connection that you have like with a specific client. And so I've been thinking about like also as I've been working and doing classes, like teaching classes with a good friend of mine, um, Atnayu Snan, who is a, a sex therapist as well.

Mm-hmm. Um, I've been thinking about how not only, uh, you personally change as a result of like your s- your sessions, but also how your sessions change as like a result of you, and how also that like kind of conflicts with capitalism sometimes 'cause like- Oh, yeah ... there is like a lot of like conversation and talk about like delivering, um...

There's like a lot of like- underlying expectation to have, like, a standard product delivered Mm When in reality there is never going to be a standard product, especially in these, like, I say soft services to say, like, emotional services or, like, like services that are based in your, like, soft and vulnerable, like, emotional world.

[00:14:21] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:14:22] Empress Wu: There's never going to be, like, a standard issue session.

[00:14:26] Dr. Nicole: No.

[00:14:26] Empress Wu: Um, and it really is about, like, the journey that you go on with somebody. And it is truly a pleasure and an honor to, like, get to experience that with other people. Yeah. And I, I talk all the time about, like, clients that I cut my teeth on.

Mm. Which is to say, like, clients that I'm like, "Oh, I really see you going through something." Yeah. And it is teaching me a lot just being in proximity to you. Mm-hmm. And I want to maintain the, like, standard of professionalism, but I also need to acknowledge the fact that I'm, like, a soft and, like, porous person as well, and that I do pick up, like, what happens in a session.

Um, and I want to continue learning from, like, people who I'm surrounded by. Like, I want that to be something that, like, impacts me and I don't-

[00:15:15] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:15:15] Empress Wu: Yeah.

[00:15:16] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Have I been yelled at in session? Yes. Am I supposed to just, quote-unquote, be like, "That's not me, that's the client"? You know how hard that is? What the-

[00:15:27] Empress Wu: Yeah

[00:15:29] Dr. Nicole: Can't do that.

[00:15:31] Empress Wu: It's... Yeah, it's a, it's an inhuman task, I feel.

[00:15:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I started, um, working with Jessica Fern for mentorship, and she told me about how n- how many clients have, like, cursed her out and walked out of the room, and then years later wrote her letters saying, like, "You gave me the medicine I wasn't ready to have yet."

That's right. And so it's like a deep part of any sort of relational work, especially when you're asking to, like, push someone, or they're asking to be pushed. I recorded with, um, Dr. Avgi, who wrote, uh, Sexuality- Mm ... Beyond Consent. Yes. Amazing conversation, and she kept talking about how, like, there's this parallel between the psychoanalyst and a dom where the client comes in saying, like, "Push me, push me, push me, but not too hard."

Yeah. "But push me, push me. Oh, oh, oh, that, that's too hard. Now you made me cry." Like, you know, it's like this really, like, how far do you wanna... You're asking for this, but then it's too much, and it's such a dynamic where you're really having to- Yes ... attune and re- and really, like, find out where those edges are for that person.

And you're right. Totally. There is no, like, one deliveral p- product. There are some therapists that try to do manualized treatment. Or not try, but do. I, I'm not one of them, but there are some- Mm. Mm-hmm ... who do, who are like, "CBT day one, day two, day three, this is what we do." Yes. I, I think you can get that from a robot, but that's-

that's a whole other conversation, you know?

[00:16:54] Empress Wu: Yes, definitely.

[00:16:56] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:56] Empress Wu: Yeah. I think a lot. I'm... And Avgi's work was, like, so influential in the way that I conducted sessions basically from, like, the beginning of 2023- Amazing ... onward after I read Sexuality Beyond Consent.

[00:17:10] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:17:10] Empress Wu: Which she, like, posted a story, or she posted, like, a post on Instagram after the first year of the book being out, and she was like, "People..."

She's like, "I would get letters from people who describe the experience as, like, being in, like, a torpedo or, like, on a tear. And then I would respond to every single one of these letters, and then they would never respond to me again." And I was like, "Yeah, that is how it felt to read it." Like, reading that book, I've been talking about it, like, literally nonstop since I read it 'cause it was such a gripping experience, and I feel like it's so rare to have, like, an experience of reading that, especially in that genre- But yeah, it is that exact same tension of somebody push- ba- begging you to push them.

And, and you push them, and also sometimes you listen to, like, a thing that a person is asking you for, and you know in your heart of hearts, like, that's not really what they're asking for. Like, that's not really- Yeah ... what they crave, desire, need to be, like, a better version of themselves. And so sometimes you push them the way that they ask, and sometimes you push them in a way that feels like taking your feet all the way off the gas.

And that has also been, like, an interesting lesson as well.

[00:18:31] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So how do you work through that in a session when you're working with folks? Especially looking back over the 10 years, what are some of the things- Yeah ... that you've learned in that, that role?

[00:18:44] Empress Wu: Um, like I, I think that I've been, like, really looking back over my career and thinking, and have been thinking a lot about, like, "Oh, what is my, like, personal investment?"

Like, part of me nearing the 10 year is looking at my, and revisiting my own, like, mission vision values. Yeah. And thinking, like, "What's working? What's not working? What's working? What's not working?" Mm-hmm. And there are moments in my career in which I think that I was, like, personally really, really seeking high-intensity- Like a HIIT workout basically of a session-

like high intensity impact training. Like

[00:19:26] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. More

[00:19:26] Empress Wu: wisdom walks. High intensity, high impact. Mm-hmm. Let's go to the edge. Like, let's fucking do that. That's the niche- Yeah ... I'm carving out for myself.

[00:19:34] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, hi

[00:19:34] Empress Wu: Jess. And I feel... Yes, definitely. Um, we're going in deep and we're going in hard, and we're not, we're not going in slowly, I'm there.

[00:19:45] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Sink or swim. Um- Sink or swim.

[00:19:46] Empress Wu: Yes, exactly. Um, and now you're drowning.

[00:19:51] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly. I'm there, I'll hold you. Um- It's fine.

[00:19:53] Empress Wu: Yeah. And I am really, really grateful for everything that those sessions taught me. Like, I think, I think often about, like a specific session that I had not long after I read Sexuality Beyond Consent.

And it was this one session in which this person had like come to me asking me, like they were like, "I am having like difficulty and trouble like working through like specific psychological blocks, and I need help and like assistance working through those blocks." Mm-hmm. And so we agreed to have like an introductory session that was a little bit more slow, sensual.

He could understand what his pain tolerance was, he could understand all these different things. And then our second session was kind of like a perfect storm. After our first, in which I asked... Like, a friend of mine was doing her research and observed a lot of different sessions. I'm sure you are familiar with that friend.

[00:20:45] Dr. Nicole: Uh-huh.

[00:20:45] Empress Wu: She observed a lot of sessions of like New York City podoms, um, I think from like 22- '22 to 2023. And we had this very interesting interaction where before our session he emailed me a reflection of the first and said, "Oh, these are all of the things that I like really, really loved." And one of the moments that he mentioned really loving included something that I wasn't quite perceptive of- Mm

that happened during the session, that was like a slight boundary violation for me. Mm. Um, and it was also like a boundary that I like wasn't super intentional about holding, and it like broke the space of the container slightly. Yeah. And it was something that he did, and I could tell that he wanted, but he didn't explicitly ask for it.

And so I used that as like fodder and material during the actual second session, which was like one of the most like, I think, impactful sessions that I've ever had, I know that he's ever had. Which was essentially, I could smell and like sense in him that he was consistently afraid of doing bad and like doing wrong.

Mm-hmm. I told him at the beginning of the session, I was like, "Hey, I just want to let you know, like, I really think that you are a good person, and the session that we're about to do is going to be really, really intense, and I want you to understand that, like, I don't mean any ill will towards you. I don't mean any harm, and I think that you're good fundamentally."

And then during the session, I used, like, the actual material of what was happening between him and I during our first session, not, like, as a role play, but, like, legitimately, like, spoke directly to, like, the client-provider dynamic and said that he, like, violated my boundaries, that he coerced me, that he was evil, that he had violent thoughts about women, that he did all these different things that he fundamentally did not understand or believe about himself.

Mm-hmm. And I think is also something that he is consistently, like, bracing himself- Sure ... against hearing. Yeah. And then, like, just started punching him. Mm. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think, like- and pushed him beyond the edge of, like, what he could handle or maintain on purpose, or, like, what he thought that he could handle and maintain on purpose.

Like, earlier when you were talking about the, the moment of you push them too far and then they start crying, for me, I'm like, that's usually, like, the sign for me to go further. Mm. Mm-hmm. Like, to, to stay in the beat of crying- Mm ... and to not, like, lessen the intensity of crying. Yeah. And I was, like, reading...

He eventually, like, came down from that experience of crying. I was, like, reading my friend's notes about it after, and she wrote that he had been crying for about, like, 15 minutes. Mm. Like 15 to 20 minutes, and it was, like, almost, like, repulsive for her to, like, withstand. Like, it was- Yeah ... like, a difficult thing for her to, like- Sure

bear- Sure ... witness to. And we, like, came down, and I, like, held him and I hugged him, and I, like, told him, like, "Hey, I know that this happened. I was just using this as material for our session. I know that you're a good person, and I already forgave you, like, well before you stepped into the dungeon today."

Mm-hmm. And the first night that he came home, um, he sent me a reflection in which he was, like, spiraling. He was like, "I'm second-guessing even, like, petting my dog." Aw. And I said to him, like, "Hey, I hear you. I'm here with you. Sit in the feeling. Like, don't avoid it. Just sit in it and be with it. Allow it to, like, pass over you.

You're gonna be okay. Everything's gonna be okay. Just sit with it." And then he emailed me again, like, a week later, and he was like, "I feel lighter than I've ever felt." Mm. He was like, "I feel lighter than I have in maybe, like, 10 years." Yeah. And I, I think that that was, like, definitely, like, a, a moment of, like, trust that I had to have both with myself and with him.

[00:25:18] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:25:19] Empress Wu: And he and I are still in contact. He, like, moved and, like, got into, like-- left one relationship, got into another relationship, and I'm, like, really happy for him. Um, he and I are still in contact. I think that he's doing really well. Mm. Um, and I am, like, really grateful that I was able to- Yeah ... like, learn what I needed to learn out of that session and also bring him to that place in that session.

And I think a lot of my sessions, like, strove to hit the high of that session for a while. Mm-hmm. Um, and a lot of times they did. And I also think moderation is good. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I think that I've also learned a lot about, like, my own capacity for taking on that- Sure ... kind of, like, high intensity.

Yeah. Yeah, with that level Of, yeah, like I think that that is something that I, that kind of like high intensity session is something that I like deeply desire, but it's also something that like quite literally my emotional space cannot withstand- Sure ... um, every session.

[00:26:31] Dr. Nicole: Oh, sure.

[00:26:32] Empress Wu: Which is a good lesson to learn- Yeah

as you're getting older.

[00:26:37] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:26:38] Empress Wu: So.

[00:26:39] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, your body's in that space. Even though you know you're taking them somewhere, your body is still having to actually take them there. Yeah. And then naturally as humans we co-regulate, so when you see them in that distress, it's also the mirror neurons are going on in your body, so you are feeling that.

Yes. Grant it, taking the deep breath and holding the container with the power dynamic, but it's still happening through your body too, right? Yeah. Like when you see, like in my work when I see clients going through like deep trauma processing, right? Like I am still in that space, and if you're really attuned to them and you're not numb as fuck-

[00:27:17] Empress Wu: Yeah

[00:27:18] Dr. Nicole: you're gonna feel all of that. Yes. And then you're supposed to just, "All right, I've got some drinks with my friends later. Right. Here," you like just go back into real, like, quote, quote "real life." Like-

[00:27:27] Empress Wu: Totally.

[00:27:29] Dr. Nicole: What?

[00:27:31] Empress Wu: There's like, um, there's, um, a joke about, there's this like joke that I talk about sometimes.

Uh-huh. Or like I describe this like experience sometimes of like the, the dungeons that are in New York City are, um, a lot of them are in Manhattan. Mm. And it's one of the most disorganizing experiences to do the worst possible thing that you could possibly do to a person, and then walk out onto the busy s- streets and be like, "Nobody knows that I just role played a death with somebody."

"Nobody knows that I just made someone drink from his own butt." Like

How bizarre.

[00:28:11] Dr. Nicole: Oh, but there's the politics right there, right?

[00:28:14] Empress Wu: Or what do you mean by that? I'm curious.

[00:28:19] Dr. Nicole: like the underground. You come up into the, quote-unquote, "norm", right? And it feels so- Yeah ... bizarre, right? But here are these people. We know how prevalent kink fantasies are, how many people come into your space, how many people crave that sort of edge and exploration. It's the, it's the taboo conversation, right?

Where it's like-

[00:28:36] Empress Wu: Yeah ...

[00:28:36] Dr. Nicole: it's so taboo that when you come into the daylight, you truly feel like, "What did I just do?" And that is true in our society, but what does it say that it lives so much in the dark s- it's, it's a reflection of where it exists in our psyche, right? Which is in the- Yeah, totally

forbidden, the dark basement that you're not supposed to talk about, which is often where suffering comes from, these parts of our consciousness that we feel like we can't share with others, that are so wrong- Mm-hmm ... that are so forbidden, and AKA we're lacking connection around. That's where all the suffering comes from.

[00:29:05] Empress Wu: Definitely. Definitely. Um, yeah. You're, like, walking out into, like, the street, and you cannot ... It's, it's not responsible for you to stop the person that is closest in proximity to you and be like, "Do you know what I've just done?"

[00:29:26] Dr. Nicole: But I wish- So, yeah ... and that's why you're here. You're, you're shaking me and all of the listeners to tell me what you just did, right? It's so needed. Yeah. It's so needed. Definitely. Right?

[00:29:36] Empress Wu: Yeah. And it is, like, an interesting thing. I think, and I wonder this is also true for therapists, um, especially sex therapists, but something that I think started to take a toll on me was realizing, like, oh, I'm having these, like, heightened very, very intense experiences on the regular.

Mm-hmm. Um, especially when it comes to, like, kink because kink is, like-

[00:29:58] Dr. Nicole: Right ...

[00:29:59] Empress Wu: there's, like, a kind of obvious element of, like, sadism that happens in the process of the session. And it is, because I've been doing it for so long, I think that I got a little uncalibrated to how often other people were doing kink.

Which is not to say, like, oh, other people's tolerances should be, like, a gauge of my tolerance. But it is, like, helpful to remember sometimes, like, oh, yes, a person who is seeing me as, like, a client is not doing this, like, multiple times a month. Like, a person who is seeing me as a client, well, I mean, might be seeing, doing kink multiple times a month.

But for the most part, like, a lot of the people who see me, that's, like, their one kink experience per month or per six months or per year. Like, that is... They're not regularly going into, like, that space. And I think continually also, like, being mindful of, like, oh, because they're not regularly going into that space, the contrast for them then feels like- Oh, yeah

s- like, it feels different, and it feels like so much more of, like, an elevation. And being attuned to that contrast, I think, is, like... It was, like, important for me to, like, maintain a memory of that and, like, so I could be, like, more attuned to, like, the intensity of the experience relative to their everyday life.

[00:31:15] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:16] Empress Wu: Um, I mean, that's also another part of it, right? Like, that is also, like- Part of that politic as you describe

[00:31:25] Dr. Nicole: Right, yeah, the forbidden. So these are not areas Mm-hmm ... especially when you think about therapy too, it's, um, essentially building the emotional vocabulary, the capacity to feel, right? Under capitalism, a lot of people, this is their one hour that they feel that's safe to do any of that, right?

Where for me, I'm, like, spending, like, an eight-hour back to back one-hour sessions, like, in that level of, like, yes, depth and so much feeling. And so then when I go to a party and someone's like, "How's the weather?" I feel like I wanna die at that question, 'cause it's like, what the f- Yeah ... who cares about the wea- Tell me about your childhood trauma.

Like, what did your parents do to you? Yeah, totally. Yeah,

[00:32:00] Empress Wu: but how do you feel about the weather? Yeah. Not, how's the weather. What is that weather evoking in

[00:32:06] Dr. Nicole: you? Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. But then that's also why people wanna work with us, right? It's because, like- Yeah ... you do have that, like, completely flipped reality where this is your norm, right?

And so you- Yeah ... become, like, a craft, a surgeon of your own skill, right? You don't... I don't wanna go to the surgeon who's nervous to pick up the scalpel. Totally. I wanna go to the surgeon who's like, "Ah, another Tuesday. Here's the cut. Here's the incision," you know?

[00:32:30] Empress Wu: Yes, definitely. Yes. And I was also thinking about that 'cause I have been...

Okay, I have two questions for you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

[00:32:36] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[00:32:36] Empress Wu: Um, one of them is, like... Okay, well first I gotta say this. Yeah. I was thinking about that, 'cause for a period of time I was actually... I was doing literally so much scalpel work- Mm-hmm ... in my work.

[00:32:46] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:32:47] Empress Wu: Um, and that was really, really fun. I also was doing a lot of needles, was doing generally- Mm-hmm

like, a lot of blood.

[00:32:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:32:53] Empress Wu: And I feel like it gave me, like, a lot of thoughts and feelings about the medical industrial- Yeah ... just, like, the medical industry period. Yeah. Because I... There were so many different times in which I was doing something that felt literally forbidden, which is, like, cutting somebody open.

Mm-hmm. Was like, wow, doctors must be a little bit maladjusted.

[00:33:19] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Oh, yeah

[00:33:20] Empress Wu: Like, because you really have to, like in some ways, kind of hold this double existence of both being attuned to somebody's feeling, which is honestly part, the major part and parcel of the job of like the nurse, which is interesting that they kind of like separate the two.

Yes, it is. Um, and then, but also be like disattuned to somebody's, like experience of like fear, and you have to kind of hold like a certain kind of certainty to override someone else's fear of pain. And that, in my opinion, like being completely and totally carefree of somebody else's pain, that is like a sadism, you know?

Mm-hmm. Like, to do that for the betterment of other people or for the betterment of yourself, like whether that's like prestige, honor, income, whatever that is, that is like a kind of sadism and that is like a wild experience to me. But yeah, I think that the question that I was gonna ask you is like, if you/when you find yourself investing so much into your emotional space professionally and living in like a really entrenched like emotional world professionally, what do you...

Like, what does decompressing look like?

[00:34:42] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, that's a great question and one I'm still figuring out for myself 'cause, uh, it's different, you know, doing yoga, going for a walk Editing the podcast, rock climbing with friends, fucking, eating some good food, playing with my cat. But okay, but here's the thing.

So I don't know if I wanna decompress. Do you know what I... And, and this is, as my partner reminded me this weekend, "Don't live in a cage, Nicole, with your own intellectual pursuits." But like I have a weird fucking job. Yeah. You know what I mean? As do you, right? And so, like, I took out half a million dollars in student loans as a first-generation- Mm-hmm

student to become a doctor- Mm-hmm ... of a certain type of intellectual pursuit. Right. And now people pay money to be in my consciousness and sit with me.

[00:35:39] Empress Wu: Yeah.

[00:35:40] Dr. Nicole: I find that fucked up. I don't think that I- Yeah ... should have to pay this amount of money to get access to this sort of insight to then charge people to have access to a conversation with me for this sort of sk- I mean, i- am I doing it under capitalism?

Yeah. And now here I am. And also- Yeah ... I do think that my job is to, like, make sure that this field does not perpetuate into the future.

[00:36:03] Empress Wu: Of course.

[00:36:05] Dr. Nicole: You know what I mean? Yes. Yes. Like, like, so, like, when I do get upset about all of the, the weights of clients and all this sort of stuff, I don't take it as like, "Ah, that's the job.

I'm just gonna go to bed at night." I do sit with that, of like, what does it mean that, like, people don't have these skills and we're in these places, and all this sort of stuff. And so, uh, as you can hear, then decompressing, decompressing really for me looks like finding, like, a intellectual answer to why this is occurring, you know?

Yeah. And so I just keep spinning my wheels and wheels and wheels and wheels about it until I feel some sort of, like, great, like I'm making a free resource, like a podcast and trying to, like, break down the barriers into some sort of, like, quote-unquote, relationship with me or consciousness with me.

[00:36:46] Empress Wu: Yeah.

You're kind of doing like carbon offsetting a little bit. True. Like, but like the, the like emotional capitalistic version or anti-capitalistic version of that.

[00:36:55] Dr. Nicole: As much as I can while still living in the system, 'cause I do have to survive. So like thank God all my clients who do pay for me to exist, right?

Yeah. So I can do this. And then trying to offer sliding scale as much as possible, especially in my group dynamics where I can like really offset that cost with the people who pay full rates and try to create that sort of space. Uh, but I, I, I find it fucked up. I like, I shouldn't have to be in half a million dollars of student debt for this information.

This, the things that I learned in psychology school are things that all of us should have access to. Understanding of how the brain works, how relationship works, how the body works, systems of oppression, diversity. Like those aren't things that we should be locking behind ivory towers and like a, quote-unquote, "piece of paper".

[00:37:37] Empress Wu: Totally. Absolutely. Do you feel like the majority of your waking hours are spent around like your job or things related to your job or how to offset your job or the ways that you are relating in your job?

[00:37:54] Dr. Nicole: Yes, and I think that's bad. I think that I'm having a hard time with it. Yes. I think I am having a hard time with that.

Uh, because when you came on five years ago, you were like, "Oh, you're studying relationship anarchy. What are you, what have you learned?" And I don't think I had a good answer for you at the time, because at the time it was just the beginning and I picked it as a topic. I hadn't even wrote the dissertation or any of that stuff.

And so then I studied this like concept of power structures in relationships and how they're everywhere inside our psyche and impact everything. So if we, we come from that baseline that the personal is the political, then yeah, every single moment that I'm living my life is a, is a moment to examine, right?

This conversation I'm having, every time I do anything. So y- you could see how you could just get absolutely lost in your head and not actually live or play when everything becomes like a moment of examination, so.

[00:38:46] Empress Wu: Yes, definitely.

[00:38:47] Dr. Nicole: I'm trying to work on that.

[00:38:48] Empress Wu: Oh, girl. Yeah. And I'm like talking to my friends about it, and like a lot of my friends are like people that I work with or have worked with before or people who are like also like thinking through like similar questions and conversations.

And so like it becomes this like really built out... And like I can imagine that you are surrounding yourself with very like-minded community and all these different things and like, yeah, you're like consistently like bumping up against those questions for yourself. And like consistently living in that- emotional intellectual space.

Yep. Um, your vocal- Yep ... cords must be very tired.

[00:39:23] Dr. Nicole: Ah, yeah. I appreciate that acknowledgement. The, the wild part is, like, there are days where I get into this job and I'm like, "This job is fucking insane," right? Yes. Like, this client is yelling at me, and I'm trying to, uh, be soft and understand, like, which parts are their trauma coming out, and which part is it, is it me?

Did I say something, right? It's always a yes and. Right. But, like, how am I supposed to separate that, right? And at the same time, I wouldn't have it any other way.

[00:39:51] Empress Wu: Totally.

[00:39:52] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly. I'm sure you resonate. Like, I wouldn't wanna- I know ... do you wanna go to a bank job and just sit and sell stocks? Like, what the f-

[00:39:59] Empress Wu: Yeah.

Nine to five is not for me.

[00:40:03] Dr. Nicole: No,

[00:40:03] Empress Wu: exactly. I had a moment earlier this year where I was just like, "Maybe I hate all of it." "Maybe I, like, hate all of it, and I don't wanna do any of this, and I don't know how to do anything else, but maybe I should just get a part, part-time job, and maybe I should just, like...

Maybe I should, like, free myself from this, like, beautiful prison that I've created for myself, and I should just find a corporate job."

[00:40:24] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah. "

[00:40:24] Empress Wu: Make my life easier." Yeah. And then I came out of that and I was like, "Hey, I'm actually just scared."

[00:40:29] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah,

[00:40:29] Empress Wu: yeah. That's actually what that is.

[00:40:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. What are you- Okay

what are you afraid of?

[00:40:34] Empress Wu: I think, um, I think what was actually happening was that I was being unboundaried in my work. Mm. And this is something that I also think a lot about in terms of, like, people who are operating in, like, the intellectual emotional space.

[00:40:50] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:40:50] Empress Wu: Um, but I was being really unboundaried in my work, and realized that because I'm so different from, like, the community that I grew up in, I thought that I was immune to, like, taking on other people's, like, wants and aspirations, that I was always the one who was in control.

And then I think I accidentally did it again and recreated that pattern, but just with, like, the community that I chose as an adult, as opposed to being like, "Okay, what do I personally want?" As opposed to, like, "What is it that other people want around me?" Um- Mm ... so I think that a lot of the past year has been disentangling myself from, like, the aspirations and desires that I feel like I should have- Mm

and reorienting towards, like, oh, well- I actually don't need to make half a million dollars a year. I, I don't want to make half a million dollars per year. Like, that would create a lifestyle that is actually not that much more beneficial than the lifestyle that I currently have. Like, I actually want to have sessions that are good, and by good I don't necessarily mean financially.

Like, I want to have sessions that are connective and invested, and, um, with people who are, like, coming to me and we're not speaking only in the language of, like, an erotic compulsion, but we're, like, actually, like, investigating the places that they have, like, never been before, like, and are interested in going.

Mm-hmm. Um, and I think another part of that was, like, for me sessions are such a creative space. Like- Yeah ... always have been, and this year I felt for the first time, like, creative burnout. Mm. And it scared the fuck out of me. Mm. I was like, I go... There was, like, a period of time, and I'm not gonna name which period.

Um- ... but I was, like, coming into sessions being like, "Ugh," like, trying to, like, run out the clock. And I was like-

[00:42:43] Dr. Nicole: Sure ... "

[00:42:43] Empress Wu: Who am I? What the fuck is happening?" Yeah. I've never felt this way about, like, pro domming before. I've never felt this way about my job, and I think a lot of that was also that, like, I had crafted so much of my life to be invested in BDSM, leather lifestyle, kink community, professional domming, sex worker rights organizing, all these different things that are- Yeah

like swirling in and around this thing-

[00:43:12] Dr. Nicole: Yeah,

[00:43:12] Empress Wu: yeah ... that I didn't have- Like, I didn't have a personality outside of that, and it was making me, like, I was having creative burnout because I was drawing from, like, an echoing well- Mm ... that was dry and empty. Mm. Oh. And it was because I didn't have pursuits outside of this thing, and I wasn't, like, newly engaging with material outside of and irrelevant or, like, seemingly irrelevant to my work and my job.

Yeah. And so I couldn't bring anything new to the job and was, like, relying on the- Mm ... other people to, like, bring in things for me- Sure ... as opposed to, like, me bringing-

[00:43:54] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:43:54] Empress Wu: my own personal voice, style, et cetera, based off of, like, the experiences that I was having.

[00:43:59] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:43:59] Empress Wu: Um, like, I created a personal curriculum for myself, um- Oh

in the summertime. Yeah, which was awesome. Um-

[00:44:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:44:09] Empress Wu: I'm it's also been, like, enough time since grad school has passed that I was like, "What is missing?" And then I realized that I wasn't in structured learning. Mm. And I needed that space. Like, I needed something to, like, give myself space and room to figure out, like, what is it that I like, what is it that I don't like, what is- Yeah

it that's, like, piquing my curiosity and my interest. Um, so creating that personal curriculum for myself was very helpful, and, like, exercising different parts of my brain- Sure ... I think was also, like, a really, really helpful endeavor. Yeah. So- Mm-hmm ... that's, like, part of the reason why I asked that question to you of, like, do you feel like most of your waking life is, like, spent and oriented around, like, the emotional world and, like, investigating and untangling, like, emotional worlds with other people, and yourself, and your psyche, and your consciousness?

Because if so, that's really awesome, and also, like, I imagine that that can also be very exhausting.

[00:45:13] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, the listeners can't see me just being, "Oh, I... Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm." Head nodding. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah.

[00:45:21] Empress Wu: And the last thing that I was also going to think about was that, like, you've also accomplished this, like, huge professional endeavor, you know?

And there's, like, an additional extremely celebratory aspect. Like, an extremely celebratory mark that gets to, like, be added to your understanding of your, like, ego and identity. And I'm often thinking about, like, oh, how much of, how much of me exists in my, like, public identity? Which to a certain degree is, like, encapsulated in your, like, doctor honorific.

Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. That, like, you're like, "Oh, I'm a professional sex therapist, and thinker, and podcaster." Like, this is all part of my, like, professional world.

[00:46:11] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:46:11] Empress Wu: Versus how much of you do you keep just for you, or just for you and your partner, or just for you and your friends? I don't know. Those are...

I feel like those are all, like, questions that I have been having to, like, tease out and tease through for the past, like, several years.

[00:46:25] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, I can only imagine, especially when you, when you play a certain role. Especially when I- Definitely ... when I imagine the dom role, I... 'Cause you're playing with people's psyche, and so I imagine, like, the softer parts of you are not what they're coming to see.

Those moments where you're crying in your own experience, right? It would almost break the frame of what they're coming for, depending on your role and how you see that. I, 'cause I don't know how, you know, how much you play in that space of more authentic... I mean, it's always authentic. Mm-hmm. But, like, what parts of yourself.

Yeah. Um, and for the, the therapy side, there's, there's a deep view with the Freudian analysis world where it's like tabula rasa. I'm supposed to be this complete blank slate. Yeah. If you were to ask me questions like this in session, I'd say, "What would it mean to you to know my answer?" And just completely deflect, deflect, deflect, deflect, deflect.

Which I find- Yeah, totally ... to be bullshit. Which, you know- Yeah ... I think, I think there's a way to hold the session where I can be like, "This is about you, and I'm gonna make sure everything is about you in this time," so the energy flows in that way, while still being like, "Hey, this is my authentic positionality in the world."

Totally. I personally wanna know where my therapist is coming from. It's really informative to know where their biases might be based on their lived experience, identity, culture. I fucking wanna know that stuff, 'cause it informs-

[00:47:45] Empress Wu: Definitely ...

[00:47:46] Dr. Nicole: how they relate to me. And so I think that's fair, um, to be able to have that sort of discussion where you can be authentic in those pieces.

Now- Yeah, I think what I've been working through and, and having some grief recently was when I found that some of my therapy clients had also gone to the same play parties, and spaces, and dungeons in Chicago. And that meant for me to be like, oh, right. These sacred spaces for me where I have gone and played and had these scenes, and I'm on drugs and I'm not in a moment to be able to like show up in the, quote, unquote, "role of what I do," right?

Like-

[00:48:24] Empress Wu: Yeah ...

[00:48:25] Dr. Nicole: is now like stripped away. Mm-hmm. And my su- one of my supervisors was like, "You know, like, that's okay. Like, you're in the community. You're a part of the community, and you're a leader in the community. Like, go be in those spaces," you know? But that's still a lot to like, you know, the traditional psychotherapy.

People freak out about just seeing a client at a grocery store, let alone like me tied up on a cross being whipped, you know what I mean? And having dildos- Totally ... in my mouth. Like, I... "Hey, client, what's up?" You know? But like what does it mean- Yeah ... to also stand there in that and be like, "Hey, this is what I believe in.

This is what I believe is real, real experience- Yeah ... in human life, and I'm passionate." Hey, I'm

[00:49:02] Empress Wu: practicing what I'm preaching right now.

[00:49:04] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. But you tell that to a licensing board, you know, and, or any other sort of like professional group, they might be like, "You did what?" You know? And it's like, well, what am I- Yeah

supposed to do? Not live what I...

[00:49:18] Empress Wu: Yeah. Not live my truth.

[00:49:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Apparently. Yeah. Just hide under a rock and be like, "Hey, I believe in these things, but because I'm supposed to be a, quote, unquote, 'professional,' I can't go do them anymore." Because that would do what? That's, that's the moment like you coming out from the, the ground and being like, "I just did what with my hour?"

Right? It's like this, uh-

[00:49:38] Empress Wu: Yes ...

[00:49:38] Dr. Nicole: this grinding and friction between the, quote, unquote, "professional," which we know where that comes from. Like all-

[00:49:44] Empress Wu: Yeah ...

[00:49:44] Dr. Nicole: the white patriarchal bullshit with the buttons, you know? And like the-

[00:49:47] Empress Wu: Policing. Totally. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:49:50] Dr. Nicole: So it's fascinating.

[00:49:52] Empress Wu: It is. It is. And like it's interesting to like, to talk about it out loud and to categorize it into boxes, but it's also interesting to think about how it's like, how we like bodily integrate the idea of like the professional or the public.

[00:50:07] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:50:07] Empress Wu: Um, and like how we like move around the world differently in relation- Yeah ... to these like kind of like, you know- artificial distinctions between like spaces of like professional, private, um, public, personal, all these different things. I think it is like, like I have definitely noticed myself interacting with the world differently because I'm like nervous about how I'm going to be perceived or like- Yeah

um, to what, to what degree I need to be like responsible to the world in a particular way, or I need to like show up for the world in like a particular way. And also, like, you know, how much of that is also a different version of me also policing myself but repackaged. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, or how easily that wire can be tripped from like thinking intentionally.

The cars outside my window just like did an aria together. It was kind of beautiful.

It's New York, baby. Um, sung to an aria. They all have the new Celia album. Uh-huh. Um, but yeah, how, how easily that wire can be tripped and how easily you can like slide from thinking about like, oh, I'm intentionally making moves about how I want to hold myself in the world and like act in the world and what I wanna show up as in the world versus like, well, I have to show up in the world this way because like my professional like obligations say that I have to, or I believe that that's what it means to like be a professional.

Like, it's like a really fascinating and it's like really interesting to watch that happen in like real time.

[00:51:50] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I imagine When I'm sitting at a dinner table and I'm talking about my day or the things I'm exploring, I have that deeper question of can I say this with my authentic voice and normal cadence and projection, or do I need a, "Oh, well, we were talking about how someone has this wedgie kink and so this thing."

Right? Like, do you, you know, like when you're talking about your day and what happened, do you whisper because you're at a restaurant and you're thinking about the context of everyone else who's enjoying their meal, and the things that would probably, quote, quote, "ruin their dinner if they heard you," right?

Mm-hmm. Versus the authenticity of like this is just my normal day and what I, what happened to me and what I, what I you know, what I'm doing with my world. I imagine it, it's really something that, like, you have to, you have to, like, gauge who you're sitting with. When you're sitting with a bunch of other pro-doms, it's much easier of a conversation.

And I imagine you probably feel, um, seen in ways that many other people cannot see you, and so then there's a, I imagine a lot of isolation, of feeling like no one else... You know, we're already isolated existentially, you know, up in here. But especially so when you do a really unique role where other people don't understand what it's like to be in the dungeon for that many hours doing this many scenes and having this many people cry and be afraid to pet their dog afterwards.

Like, how many people- Totally ... can you really talk to and they'd be like, "Oh, yeah, I've been there too." Very, I imagine it's few. Yeah, totally. Yeah.

[00:53:18] Empress Wu: Yeah. And it's also kind of like I'm glad that not everybody- Yeah. Yeah.

[00:53:26] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I'm cur- I'm curious, like, how do, how do you fuck? You know what I mean? Like, I do all this stuff- Yeah

and it's made it, I think it's made it harder to fuck, honestly. Because, like, fucking used to be this, like, play space and, like, I definitely think there's, like, an arc, you know, where like I'm learning lots of skills, getting more confident, getting more embodied. Oh my God. Oh my God. And then you just keep intellectualizing and now it seems like the c- the curve is going down.

Yeah. And maybe it will go back up, but, like, I'm just like, "Oh, God, so many thoughts. What about a research study with this way? What about this? What about that? What about this? What..." It's like the curve is going down when you become too eco- Yeah ... intellectual.

[00:54:04] Empress Wu: Totally. Oh my goodness, totally. Um, I... Well, I'm curious about, like, okay, at, can I request- Yeah

like, more specificity in that question?

[00:54:17] Dr. Nicole: Do you play with power dynamics in your own life, and how do you do that when that's also your job?

[00:54:24] Empress Wu: Hm. Yes. That is a great question. Um, I do play with power dynamics in my own life. I have, like- I have, like, my own personal partner, and then I also have, like, an additional play partner who I have, like, a really, really beautiful service dynamic with.

Mm. My partner also has somebody in their life who's in a service... who they're in a service dynamic with, and so it's, like, a little bit of, like, people are always wanting to know, like, "What are you like with your girlfriend?" And I'm like, "You fucking wanna know." It's top for top, switch for switch, obviously.

Yeah.

[00:54:59] Dr. Nicole: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

[00:55:00] Empress Wu: Obviously. Um, but yeah. I think that there's something that is, like, really, really beautiful. I do play with personal partners, and I think that that's, like, really healing for me. Yeah. Like, I think that it's, like, really incredible to have, like, a space in which I'm like, "Well, this is truly how I wanna fuck."

Mm-hmm. You know? This is truly the things that I wanna do. Mm. And obviously, it's not like I'm, like, doing things that are beyond the other person's, like, desire or- Right ... anything like that. But it is, like, a place in which I actually do get to actively and overtly organize, like, my desire that is freed not only from the expectation of, like- professional dom, but also freed from the expectation that comes with a transaction.

[00:55:52] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:55:53] Empress Wu: Um, so that is, like, something that has been, like, just, like, really unique and, like, really healing is, like, finding other kind of, like, cuckoo bitches who are like- ... who operate at, like, the same level of intensity that I do and understand, like, what it is that I'm going through and moving through.

Mm-hmm. And we just, like, get to provide, like, a really beautiful s- space for each other. Mm. And I always, like... I have been saying this since 2020, that, like, fucking your friends is mutual aid. If everybody's, like, involved, every- everybody, like, is down for it, having, like, a safe space in which, like... Sometimes it's, like...

And a lot of the times it's, like, very platonic, you know?

[00:56:33] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[00:56:34] Empress Wu: That, like, having sex is, like, a really beautiful way to spend platonic time with your friends- I love that so much ... if that's something that you're open to and down for.

[00:56:44] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:56:44] Empress Wu: Um, and I think a lot of people are just like, "But it doesn't feel the same as, like, when I'm getting, like, dick-matized by, like, m- my hot partner or my crush," or whatever it is.

Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, it's not supposed to. Yeah. Those are two different types of relationships, so of course they're gonna feel different. Mm-hmm. Um, I view, like, fucking my friends as kind of like an extension of hanging out. Yeah. It's just, like, a very special kind of hanging out. Mm-hmm. And then in my personal, like, romantic relationship, we fist each other a lot.

Mm-hmm. And I think that it's, like, less so... It's less so, like, power focused and power engaged, and it just, like, is actually a lot more focused on, like, us being in love with each other, which is also a different kind of power exchange. Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm,

[00:57:32] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm. Yeah. In the psyche. Yeah, yeah.

[00:57:36] Empress Wu: Yes. Uh-huh. Definitely.

Like, a lot- Mm ... of it is like, "You're gonna love me forever?" Ah. "Yeah, I'm gonna love you forever." "You're gonna love me forever?"

[00:57:44] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Um- Cute ...

[00:57:46] Empress Wu: yeah. And so that is, like, a really... It's, like, so warm and loving- Yeah ... and beautiful, and I wish that for everybody.

[00:57:55] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:57:56] Empress Wu: It is really incredible because- My partner is, like, able- we're able to, like, bring each other to, like, really intense, like, physical depths.

Oh my gosh. But it comes with, like, the emotional safety- Oh ... of, like, romantic stability.

[00:58:13] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:58:15] Empress Wu: Yeah.

[00:58:15] Dr. Nicole: Which means you cry even harder and you come even harder, and sometimes at the same time- Yeah ... with that person, you know?

[00:58:21] Empress Wu: Like- Yeah, girl, you fucking know what it's like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[00:58:24] Dr. Nicole: Whoa. Wow, you see me in all the mess and the hot part.

Wow. Like, it's just so much.

[00:58:29] Empress Wu: Yeah. Yeah. You love me even more. You wanna fuck me even more. That's cool. Right,

[00:58:33] Dr. Nicole: exactly. You do. Right, right, right, right. Wow. Wow.

[00:58:36] Empress Wu: That's kooky. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Never experienced anything like it.

[00:58:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:58:42] Empress Wu: Um, yeah. How do you fuck?

[00:58:45] Dr. Nicole: Mm. These days, I fuck myself a lot, honestly.

That's been- Nice ... I, I love, like, um, before I do the intros to the episode, I don't do it for the actual episode, like when I'm coming into you, 'cause it's- it's- it's t- like, too time-dependent. But when I make- Yeah ... the intros to the podcast, I always, like, masturbate beforehand and have, like-

[00:59:04] Empress Wu: That's beautiful.

[00:59:05] Dr. Nicole: Thank you. It's, it's been great. And really to, like, see where I wanna go with what I'm creating and what I'm doing in this space, and then-

[00:59:14] Empress Wu: Yeah ...

[00:59:15] Dr. Nicole: straight up, like, come hard and run over to the mic and be like-

[00:59:19] Empress Wu: That's awesome ... "

[00:59:20] Dr. Nicole: On today's episode,"

[00:59:21] Empress Wu: yeah. Yeah. People can, like, smell the sex in the air.

[00:59:25] Dr. Nicole: Thank you.

Like, when they're listening- That is the intent ... to your podcast. That is the intent. Yeah. Quite literally is can you feel it on my breath? You know what I mean? Yeah. I am Grace Senior. That's so hot. You know, that's, like, the best I can do in this sort of woo, you know. Um, so I do a lot of that, but even that's been a really complicated thing, 'cause then think about I've been doing that what...

God, I've been doing that for a year now.

[00:59:47] Empress Wu: Wow.

[00:59:48] Dr. Nicole: Okay. When this comes out, it'll be like a year and a half. So like- Damn ... think about what sort of, um... If we think about neuronal pathways and conditioning, I am now conditioning my, um, orgasm to a moment where I'm thinking about, like, production- Mm ... which is beautiful, but then, like, I, I think I didn't touch myself in terms of just pure play and enjoyment for months because I was like- Yeah

"Oh, let me save that erotic energy for when I make my intro and this, that, ah," you know? But, like-

[01:00:21] Empress Wu: Yes ... it's beautiful. I'm doing semen retention for work.

[01:00:24] Dr. Nicole: Exactly.

[01:00:24] Empress Wu: You do have to be careful about that. Girl, you do have to fucking be careful about that when you're like associate too much of your cum with, like, your professional life.

I feel like that's what I'm talking about, where I'm just like, I think it's really beautiful and it's amazing and it's, like, so nourishing for, like, your understanding of yourself and your identity. But also at the same time, sometimes you just got to nut. Like- I know ... you just got to nut for you and nobody else.

You got to nut for you off mic. I know, right?

[01:00:52] Dr. Nicole: I know. Yeah. I know, yeah. Exactly, and that's like literally the complexity of, of doing that, right? Is, um, when does it become so much of production? Even like you said at the beginning, so much of creating for other people, creating for other people versus intaking for yourself, right?

Like- Yes ... how do we find that balance between, like, coming for the creative act and also just c- coming for play and pleasure, right? Like- Definitely ... but I love the creative act. It is play and pleasure, and that's usually when my brain goes like, "No," like- Yeah ... I love the art I make, but it's also like, yeah, but then it's so in the production.

Like-

[01:01:26] Empress Wu: Yes ... you, you've-

[01:01:27] Dr. Nicole: It's- ... you gotta do it for yourself.

[01:01:28] Empress Wu: It's almost like, it's like the, the, like, progressive version of, like, sex is for reproduction. Mm. You know what I mean?

[01:01:38] Dr. Nicole: Fuck.

[01:01:38] Empress Wu: Like, you're doing a version of that. You're like, you're like your monkey brain is, like- Stop ... recreating that- ... but you're just like, "Yes," but it is for, like, creative and artistic production.

It is for, like, a different kind of birth, but it's still for birth, you know?

[01:01:52] Dr. Nicole: Literally.

[01:01:54] Empress Wu: So that's interesting.

[01:01:54] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah,

[01:01:56] Empress Wu: yeah. To think about.

[01:01:58] Dr. Nicole: It is. It is. It is. I mean, I broke the spell recently after a hot date, you know? I was like, "Damn, damn," you know, like the teasing. You go home and you're, like, really excited, you know, about it all.

Yeah, definitely. Um, and so that definitely broke the spell there. But yeah, it's fascinating in terms of how deep you can get conditioned into it. Um, I also have been doing a lot of, like, uh, kitchen table dynamics, like scenes with multiple partners and, like, uh, being topped by all of them, and that has been really profound to really- Like, work through all the fears around, like, kitchen table and, and all of the dynamics of what that means.

Um, I've noticed that my, my fears are much more tied to, like, uh, masc and male partners. In the queer space it feels like there's much more freedom to create relationships and dynamics, but I think there's so much internalized condition- conditioning around men and masculinity and the narratives of what those mean.

And so when I start bringing in multiple men to fuck me at one point, it like, it like messes with my psyche in ways that I haven't experienced in my queer dynamics. Um- Yeah

[01:03:07] Empress Wu: Yeah I'm curious for you, what is the, like... What's the fear? Like, when you're like, "Oh, I, I sense..." I feel like I'm hearing you say that you're, like, sensing, like, a threat when there are-

[01:03:18] Dr. Nicole: Yeah

[01:03:19] Empress Wu: when there's, like, masculine energy in that space for you.

[01:03:22] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it's because I've had male partners in the past who have really struggled with the concept of, quote-unquote, "sharing me." You know what I mean? Like, they, they see me- Yeah ... in this vision of the housewife at home who is just theirs and their property, you know?

Even if they might not- Yeah ... have put it in those words, that's the- that's where that comes from. Yeah. Right? And so I've had, like, um, male partners who are like, "Yeah, I'm totally on board with the polyamory," and then be, like, really cagey with my other male partners. And you can, like, sense that shit, where you're like-

[01:03:52] Empress Wu: Yeah

[01:03:53] Dr. Nicole: wow, okay, like, you are not vibing here. Your energy is off. And so, uh, finding male partners who are both on board, like, I had so much fear that... I just remember being at a play party and having both of them kiss me, and I couldn't shake this feeling that, like, if I kiss the other one in front of the other, even though they know that I'm, like, with both, but, like, to have them both visually see it, that, like, they would leave me and say, "This is too much."

And I, I, I just kept naming it to them when I was there at the party. I was like, "I'm so afraid." And, like, literally both of them put their hands on my chest and just rubbed my chest like, "It's okay. It's okay, Nicole." Yeah. Like, "It's okay." And then we were in, like, a hallway, and they were taking turns going down on me.

And I was just, like, standing there, like, having both these men on their knees licking my pussy, and I was like, "Right, this is my life. Like, I get to have..." Like, it's a lot to like-

[01:04:41] Empress Wu: Hey, that's fucking awesome. Yeah. Chair that supports front and back.

[01:04:45] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Man, like, it's a lot to go through, like, mentally.

Yeah. You know? Um, yeah, so that's really my edge. And I... There's just something really beautiful that I really cherish about my queer relationships because I think they're already so much off the scripts. You know what I mean? Yes. Like, queer relationships live in this beautiful land, yeah, of, like, freedom and capacity and space.

And I'm, I'm... I haven't been internalized with the Disney narrative of, like, this prince who's gonna sweep me off my feet. And so there's so much more space where I don't think I've had to work through the same, like, psychological milieu and mess and muck to get out of.

[01:05:24] Empress Wu: Yeah, definitely. Like, there's, there's almost, like, a prescriptive, like, substream that you're on auto- you're, like, slotted into when you're, like, relating to, like, masculine energy, that you're like, I- Don't feel like it's as amorphous and, like, nebulous, or even maybe it's, like, you trying to, like, escape the expectation of that, that they might not even have of you but you have of yourself.

[01:05:46] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:05:47] Empress Wu: And, like, also, also I feel like a lot of it is, like, that decoupling from, like, objectifying yourself, you know? And, like, trying really hard to not think about yourself or understand yourself as, like, belonging to one or either, or, like, property that is then, like, split up or shared and, like, tragedy of the commons.

Right. Um, and being like, "Oh, I actually want-" this. Like actively saying like, "I want this. I want both of you. I'm not gonna keep a scorecard about how many times I kiss you and then kiss the other person the exact same number of times." Oh,

[01:06:20] Dr. Nicole: yeah that hits.

[01:06:20] Empress Wu: Because it's all gonna work out in the end. Yeah.

Yeah.

[01:06:22] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. That hits.

[01:06:24] Empress Wu: Yeah. It's hard.

[01:06:26] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. It sounds like you've been in a similar, like a, a similar journey through the psyche.

[01:06:31] Empress Wu: Yes. I think I have been having a lot of thoughts also about like poly in the past year. Tell me. And I think like I still identify... Me and my partner like describe ourselves as like gay monogamous- Mm-hmm

or like leather monogamous- Mm-hmm ... which is like fuck other people, have other like kind of, you know, service relationships. Like other kind of like DS's, do what you gotta do. But like do what you want to do I should say, not what you gotta do. But I think I no longer identify as like polyamorous, and I no longer like relate to polyamory in the same way that I used to.

Mm-hmm. Um, because I did notice myself when I was poly doing that kind of emotional score keeping.

[01:07:21] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:07:22] Empress Wu: And it was fucking me up really big. Sure. And I think that it incited like a kind of avoidance in me that I had just never seen before. Sure. It was like completely foreign to me. And then I think like it took up so much of my emotional space and energy- Yeah

that it was like all the love was so much more than the sum of its parts, but also like all the emotional processing and avoidance and hurt. And like- Mm ... the hard work was also a lot more than the sum of its parts as well. Yeah. Yeah. Which is not to say that I don't believe in polyamory. I think I'm like, I know people who have like done polyamory like really successfully, and I still consider myself as like someone who has done polyamory like successfully.

Mm-hmm. Um, it's also just to say like, "Oh, I see personally for myself that it triggers a kind of avoidance that I never wanna embody."

[01:08:13] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:08:13] Empress Wu: Or not interested in embodying.

[01:08:15] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:15] Empress Wu: Yeah.

[01:08:16] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think this is where a lot of the relationship anarchist conversation about deconstructing the labels to see what they mean for you, or just throwing them out completely.

There's a lot of people who say, "I have multiple friendships." And the, the thought- Yeah ... beyond that when you say friend it's not associated with so much more internalized scripts. Like if I say I have a-

[01:08:37] Empress Wu: Yes ...

[01:08:38] Dr. Nicole: a wife or a husband there's like a certain level of expectation that starts to go with that word.

Yeah. And therefore really creates that reality. And so if you're like, "Oh, I have all these friends, some of them I fuck or have these service dynamics-" Yes ... it almost creates more space for your psyche to be unburdened with like the chains of the narratives of what those mean.

[01:08:58] Empress Wu: Yeah, totally. Totally. Or like even like what we were talking about, like even in our professional lives, like I have so much intimacy in my professional life as well Yeah Um, and I feel like that is like an additional...

And I, I'm assuming that you do as well. Like, and it often does like really fill my cup, both like in terms of erotic energy and also creative energy. Mm-hmm. Like, the people that I like play with professionally are sometimes like feel like patrons or like artistic collaborators- Mm-hmm ... and that is like a really cool, or like duo partners that I play with.

Mm. Mm-hmm. Um, like other doms that come in and co-top with me or that I co-top with them, like that is also- Right ... like a kind of like deep and intense intimacy. And- Totally Yeah, it is kind of exactly what you said, of like feeling the urge both to avoid and resistance to like prescription, um, and prescriptiveness, but also wanting to carve out like what that means for me personally.

Right. Right. And yeah. A- as opposed to like, "Oh, these are what other people have done in their- Mm ... resistance to like the norm or like their counter-cultural efforts."

[01:10:09] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I'm curious, what does it mean to you to be crafting this expansive web of community, which includes clients, patrons of the arts, friends that you fuck wi- platonically, which I, I...

God, we gotta unpack that for our younger selves, who would be like, "What are they talking about?" I, I feel like- Yeah. ... I see you and I love that. I just know my younger self would be like, "What are they saying? This is..."

[01:10:34] Empress Wu: Now what does that mean? Yes.

[01:10:37] Dr. Nicole: Is it just casual? I think it's way more than that. I think it's a loving friendship, you know, at least for

[01:10:43] Empress Wu: me when I- It is loving friendship

yeah. Yeah. It is for me as well. Yeah. Like, it is a deep and loving friendship, and it is like... I think that's something that is really nice is like there are like certain kinds of like depth of respect and intimacy that happens when you go through different parts of life with friends, you know? And that, you know, like some friends open a business together, and that is like a very intense kind of like- Yeah

friendship for them, and that deepens their relationship because now their relationship holds not only both their friendship but also their business partnership. Mm-hmm. Some friends, I don't know, like carry each other through grief, right? Yeah. I had like a friend who I like supported when her like late partner of like four to six years passed away, and that is like a different kind of friendship.

And I don't even wanna say like a different level of friendship- Mm ... because it's not just a different level of friendship. It's that like you're doing friendship in a different way. Mm-hmm. Um, you're not just doing more a friendship, you know? Right. Like you're, you have to engage in it in a different way.

And I feel the same about like going to like an intimate space with someone and like having like a kind of like intimate interaction with a friend, where if you are engaging in like sex with your friend or like a kind of erotics or intimacy with your friend, you're having like a different kind of...

There's like a new facet to your friendship that gets to be unlocked and like a different way of like engaging in like things that might be tenuous or things that might be vulnerable. Um- Mm ... so my like service submissive play partner, she and I have been playing for like- six years now. Oh, yeah. Like, it's like one of my longest lasting, like, intimate relationships.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and we're very, like, platonic with each other, but we're also, like, deeply respectful to each other. And I think- Mm ... a lot of that respect was, like, built out of us, like, playing together- Yeah ... us, like, learning what the other person likes. Also, us misunderstanding each other, and, like, correcting those misunderstandings, and then being like, "Oh, I see what it is that, like, happens for you, and I see, like, what it is that you're moving through."

Yeah. "And I see, like, how to take care of you over time." And, like, this is, like, a skill that I've, like, acquired over time that I'm also consistently learning, because your needs are consistently changing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and because we're both changing as people. Yeah. Um, and we've, like, supported each other through breakups, and it has come with, like, a kind of really beautiful...

Like, we switched our... Or we, I shouldn't say switch, but, like, added a service element- Mm-hmm ... I think maybe, like, almost exactly three years ago. Mm. And it is, like, a really, really beautiful, it's a really beautiful addition to our friendship. Yeah. Like, that is something that I feel is, like, a really, it's, like, a really important friendship to me.

Mm-hmm. And I feel like I know what I can, like, rely on her for. Yeah. And I know that she always, like- You know, she might not be thinking about me all the time in the way that, like, you would be thinking about a romantic partner all the time. Mm. And I don't think about her all the time in the way that I think about a romantic partner with frequency, but I know that we both always have, like, each other's, like, best interests in mind.

Yeah, yeah. Which is a really cool way to feel. Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then I think about, like, other friends who I have, like, been intimate with in the past, and what that intimacy has, like, ferried them through- Mm-hmm ... and what that intimacy has, like, opened up in me. Mm-hmm. And, um, yeah, and like, I have, like, a friend with whom we have, like, a very, very intense, like, play chemistry, and it feels, like, very cosmic- Yeah

and very awesome and amazing, and she's, like, a little... She's, like, a kind of, like, insane Chinese woman, and I feel like she's so, like, beautiful. She's so beautiful. It's Cleo.

Ah. Amazing. Like, we have, like, a very, like, intense and beautiful, like, play chemistry, and we've done, like, such incredible scenes together. Mm-hmm. And that, and, like, the frequency of us playing has, like, decreased since she's, like, moved to California and- Mm, sure ... um, all these different things. But, like, we have, like, an investment in each other and, like, a commitment to each other to, like, rekindle that, like, once a year.

Mm. And I think that that's something that is also, like, really amazing. Yeah. And the depths that we've, like, taken each other to have been profound. We've each independently had what we call, like, artist residencies- Mm ... which are kind of, like, prolonged, like, BDSM scenes that usually last anywhere between 24 hours to, like, 10 weeks.

Wow, I like it. Um, yeah. And I think the year that you and I recorded our podcast, I was, like, maybe in the middle of, like, one with her, or maybe it happened later in the year, but, like, yeah. And usually, like, those artist residencies are there for the function of, like, us working through something that is, like, happening in our personal life and- Mm

like, learning, and, like, the other person who's, like, supporting it, like, gets to learn a lot about, like, what it means and what they discover in holding that container for the other person.

[01:16:19] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely.

[01:16:21] Empress Wu: There are all these different ways that I think, like, friendship, like, kind of what you were talking about, ab- about being against, like, prescription or, like, being or operating outside of prescription, where friendship gets to, like, take on all these forms.

And, like, intimacy also, like, is not confined only to your wife or your girlfriend or your husband or your boyfriend or your partner or whatever it is. Like, intimacy happens, like, everywhere, and it- Yeah ... has the opportunity to, like, show up everywhere in your life. That's like a really cool, like, way of living, you know?

[01:16:54] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I've said that I wanna do two things with my career, which is to dismantle rape culture- Mm-hmm ... and invite the world to reflect on the reality that we all have multiple relationships.

[01:17:09] Empress Wu: Yes, definitely.

[01:17:12] Dr. Nicole: I-

[01:17:12] Empress Wu: Definitely ...

[01:17:12] Dr. Nicole: I think that if I ended my career as like everyone's at least thinking in that frame of like this is a relationship that we're creating in this podcast right now, this is a relationship with any...

Like, that frame I think would go a long way to more intentionality as well as- Yes ... breaking down the scripts, right? Life is all about the intangibles in terms of the meaning-making, right? Of, of we, we have the sex act, but it's the story that we make about it. It's the meaning that we make of it from there, right?

And so even just painting back to my old consciousness coming from purity culture and all of that, right? Like, these acts of eroticism were only in the framework of a one-person lifelong marriage that I'd be with forever. And so when you give me this world of all these other types of ways of relating and being with your body and being in eroticism, my brain would literally shudder and like self-combust at the thought because it's so outside of the frame, right?

Um, and, and even for most of us, there's this very l- linear intimacy escalator of what it means to engage in these acts. But I, I personally find it so beautiful what you're speaking to, which is this really big open creative space where you can be in your body and make meaning of it between the two of you rather than the scripts, rather than the expectations.

Really what's there for the two of you or three or four, how many other hand- hands we can get inside- Yeah ... this dynamic. Six, seven. What's the seventh? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Come on. Come on. The... Um, and, and also like it almost feels like it like gets outside of the stickiness of the narratives of romance are often so entrapped in, um- idealistic fantasy is of who this other person can be.

Ideally, the older and more grounded we get, the more we realize that humans are messy, are gonna fail you. You're gonna be angry, you're gonna be annoyed by the person that you love and whoever's in that romance category, right? And it seems like as a society, we have way more space for that as friends, where we can understand that ebb and flow with that easier.

But because of the narratives of romance, it's much harder to do, and we often go through a lot of grief and pain and suffering as we realize that our lover is also a human being full of flaws and imperfect- Yeah ... realities, right? And so it seems like almost when you get to play and have eroticism with friends, you're kind of like lessen that sticky web of the, like, cocaine phase of thinking about that person all the time, putting them up on the pedestal, all these fantasies- Yeah

and you get to really be present with your friend, with what is. I mean, I find that so beautiful.

[01:19:37] Empress Wu: Totally. Totally.

[01:19:39] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:19:39] Empress Wu: And also thinking a lot about, like, what I've learned in my romantic relationships and applying them to my friendships as well. Yeah. You know, like, I have honeymoon phases in my friendships.

Yeah. You know? Totally. Like, I have phases in my friendships where I'm like, "Oh, my God, this person is so cool and so awesome." Yeah. And also I, I just wanna be like them. Exactly. And then, and then we get to big conflict about whatev- whatever year that is, and then I'm just like, "Hey, you fucking betrayed me."

Yeah. "And I feel, like, let down or abandoned by you." And, like, being willing and, like, excited to, like, work through those problems- Mm ... and, and, like, also being like, okay, you know, I don't necessarily want to live as if that is, like, a prescription. But if that happens in a friendship, it's not necessarily, like, as devastating because I can understand that, like, because it is a kind of intimacy like that, it is also...

It's also not unlikely that that's gonna happen there as well, because I'm also- Uh-huh ... like, the same person, you know? Yeah. I'm dealing internally with the same psychological cycles and the same conflicts. And, like, that's going to show up for me not just in my romantic relationships, but also in friendships, in work life- Mm-hmm

in, um, my dynamic with my parents, obviously. Right. Um-

[01:20:50] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely.

[01:20:51] Empress Wu: Family. So and, like, whatever, whatever you define as family, you know what I mean? Yeah,

[01:20:57] Dr. Nicole: totally. Yep, yep, yep.

[01:20:59] Empress Wu: So.

[01:20:59] Dr. Nicole: Yep, yep.

[01:20:59] Empress Wu: It is, like, a really, really beautiful... I feel like these past four years have really been, like, also really, like, friendship stock way the fuck up, you

[01:21:10] Dr. Nicole: know?

Hell, yeah. Investing there. Investing there.

[01:21:15] Empress Wu: Yeah. The dividends are great. Fucking yes. The dividends on friendship stock are high. Yeah,

[01:21:22] Dr. Nicole: absolutely. High. Yeah. Definitely. Some financial advice for, for the listeners, for sure.

[01:21:24] Empress Wu: Yes, definitely. Um, I love my friendships. Mm. And, um, I am really... And also, like- I have rekindled friendships that I had, like, that I or that friend or both of us had, like, put on pause for years.

Mm. And, like, that is also kind of, like, an incredible perspective that literally only time can grant- Oh, yeah ... is like, "Oh, working through some shit." Couldn't work it out in the moment, you know, it will heal. Unless somebody dies, which also is a possibility- Right ... time will heal that wound. Right. You know?

[01:21:58] Dr. Nicole: Right. Man, does

[01:21:59] Empress Wu: it- Yeah ... hurt when you're in it, though, and

[01:21:59] Dr. Nicole: you're like, "Wow."

[01:22:02] Empress Wu: Yeah, yeah.

[01:22:04] Dr. Nicole: But

[01:22:06] Empress Wu: yeah, it is really, really incredible. And finding friendships that are like... I think also something that was very, very helpful for me was, like, investing in friendships that are outside of industry. And like- Yeah ... that, like, investing in friendships also in people who, like, lead a different very...

who lead a very different life than me- Mm ... but understanding that fundamentally our values are the same.

[01:22:30] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:22:30] Empress Wu: You know? Yeah,

[01:22:31] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[01:22:31] Empress Wu: Like, like, it can be a person who, like, leads a very, very different lifestyle or, like, a person who, like, is operating under very different, like, material conditions or, like, circumstances.

[01:22:43] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:22:44] Empress Wu: Um, but like, at the heart of it all, like, we... Like, they understand, like, who I am as a person and not just who I am as an identity. You know what I mean? Right, right. And those two things are different. Um, yeah. Yeah. And that, and, like, somebody who has also been able to, like, with the passage of time, like, witness my changes and cycles- Mm

and, like, my evolution, and I get to witness theirs. Right. And how powerful that is as, like, an experience to have friendship for so long.

[01:23:16] Dr. Nicole: I know.

[01:23:18] Empress Wu: Yeah.

[01:23:19] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Yeah, the beauty, the pain of intimacy all in one.

[01:23:24] Empress Wu: Yeah.

[01:23:25] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:23:26] Empress Wu: Definitely.

[01:23:28] Dr. Nicole: I'm curious as we're coming towards our closing, what advice would you give to your younger self?

[01:23:36] Empress Wu: Mm. It's so funny because I'm like, this question always catches, catches me off guard.

[01:23:46] Dr. Nicole: It's good. It's always has to be in the moment. You have to be with it right now.

[01:23:50] Empress Wu: Mm-hmm. I think it would be two things.

[01:23:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:23:53] Empress Wu: I think, A- Fuck up. Do it. Just do it.

[01:23:59] Dr. Nicole: Ah.

[01:23:59] Empress Wu: Just fuck up. Just make the fuck up. Ah, I'm scared. Don't be afraid of it. I mean, you're gonna be afraid of it. You're still gonna do it anyway.

Ah. Um, and then the second is document everything. Mm. I think, like, having... Which I think that, to a certain degree, I did do a lot of- Yeah ... and I'm really grateful that I did that. Yeah,

[01:24:18] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[01:24:19] Empress Wu: But also, like, getting to go back and, like, just review, like, where the fuck I have come from. Like-

[01:24:26] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[01:24:27] Empress Wu: getting to listen to the, our podcast, um, from four years ago, getting to read my journals from three years ago, um-

[01:24:34] Dr. Nicole: Yeah

[01:24:35] Empress Wu: looking through photos and pictures and just, like, thinking about, like, the emotional tenor of my life, having, like... I have, like, private social media that, like, only, like, a handful of people follow- Yeah, yeah ... that is just, like, me documenting, like, my emotional states. Mm. And that is, like, a really beautiful practice that I think- Yeah

like, I think that social media can be fraught and evil and bad, and I think that social media corporation, et cetera, but I also think, like, having... It doesn't have to be on social media. You could just, like, have it in, like, a, a location for yourself where you're just, like, documenting your emotional world and, like, in writing and in images and in the art that you make.

And-

[01:25:13] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[01:25:15] Empress Wu: that, I think, is really helpful, both for, like, your own examination of your emotional growth, and also a friend of mine is going through something that I, like, went through, like, couple years back.

[01:25:24] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:25:24] Empress Wu: And I think it, like, changes the tenor of my advice- Yeah ... when I'm, like, not you should do this, but being like, "Hey, I was, like, really fucked up about that, like, in the way that you are now, and it's very relatable- Mm

and it's humiliating, and I can show you evidence of my humiliation if you wanna see it." Yeah. Um,

[01:25:43] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly.

[01:25:46] Empress Wu: Yeah. Um, I'm curious if you also have advice that you would give to yourself.

[01:25:54] Dr. Nicole: I hope we get a memoir one, one day. I'll say that first. I'm just, just putting that out there, you know, just, just planting some seeds.

Planting some seeds.

[01:26:05] Empress Wu: Okay.

[01:26:06] Dr. Nicole: Um- Yes,

[01:26:06] Empress Wu: ma'am.

[01:26:07] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah, exactly.

[01:26:08] Empress Wu: Yes,

[01:26:08] Dr. Nicole: ma'am. We need your psyche in the world. We need it. We need it documented. Um, oh, what would I say to my younger self? Oh, that's always

[01:26:19] Empress Wu: a question. What would you say to yourself from four years ago?

[01:26:22] Dr. Nicole: Four years ago Is it like when we're meeting?

Yeah. Oh, yeah, 'cause that's always a question of like where are we tapping into

Oof. I can feel my chest rising and I don't know, the pressure of the moment's here. Um-

[01:26:43] Empress Wu: For the listeners at home, her eyes are closed and she's in her mind palace.

[01:26:46] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um-

Ugh, I f- I guess I feel some level of emotionality because I've ... In the last, like, four and a half years, like, I, I am a small business owner. Like, I run my own business, like, doing all, like-

My younger self who was in grad school could have never imagined, like, what I would have felt to be at this moment where, like, I get to, like, run my own life and, like, I get to tell you- Yeah ... that, like, I masturbate before my episodes and be like, "No one's gonna fucking fire me because I'm my own boss."

Yeah.

[01:27:22] Empress Wu: Yeah

[01:27:27] Dr. Nicole: If I could tell myself that- It's fucking awesome ... like, you're gonna go. Here's your pleasure. You're excited about this topic, and it's gonna take you to places you'll never imagine. Mm-hmm. And you'll get to run your own empire with it. I mean, that's I would have said, "No way." No way. I'm scared. I can't talk about the sex in my life.

That's... No, no. I'll get fired. I'll get slapped. I'll get whatever. Um-

[01:27:51] Empress Wu: I get whipped.

[01:27:52] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, ex- exactly. Exactly. Dude, literally being in grad school kept this kinky edge for me.

[01:27:59] Empress Wu: Yeah. I can imagine. You're, like, trying to figure out how to, like, integrate it and you're like, "Eh, eh, eh." Yeah. Yeah,

[01:28:08] Dr. Nicole: totally. I started doing, uh...

I taught psychiatry residents in Indiana, and I could- Cool ... feel how restricted they are. And I literally texted my partners afterwards and I was like, "God, they're so restricted, it makes me wanna do some, like, impact and get in the dungeon and do something wi-..." Like, I could feel how restricted, so I'm like, "I must burst out," you know?

So it's interesting- Yes ... how when you, you get so into so much freedom that it then shifts and changes all of that for you, right, once you get there.

[01:28:36] Empress Wu: Yes.

[01:28:36] Dr. Nicole: Um- Yes,

[01:28:38] Empress Wu: definitely.

[01:28:38] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. But I would just tell her to keep following her pleasure because she's onto something, and I, I think that's what I tell- Yeah

myself now, and I, I love to, like, tell my clients, sh- like, is, is follow that calling. I'm sure you before you started any of this work too had, like, a calling to these edges- Yeah ... and places and, and, and your younger self, like, kept following those breadcrumbs to become, like, the empowered person that you are today.

And so, following that, trusting that, trusting the journey of it all. Yeah.

[01:29:09] Empress Wu: Definitely. I, um, was having a conversation with a friend last night who is in the depths of a very, of a breakup of a, like, a six-year relationship. Oh, rough. And, um, we were talking about it and we were having a conversation, so I was like, "Hey, um, do you love yourself?"

Mm. And, you know, you know how you casually talk with friends. And- Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Um, and I think that it was, like, a really interesting question because I think that, like, it's, like, an interesting question to be like, do you love yourself, and love is, like, in media and also, like, in our bodies and in our spirit, it's, like, such an amorphous experience, and is, like, continually, like, fluid and elusive.

Yeah. Yeah. But breaking it down and being like, "Oh, what does actually loving yourself mean?" And for me I'm like, that means respecting myself. It means building trust with myself continually. Yeah. Like, crafting trust with myself. Yeah. And, like, intentionally putting myself in experiences that, like, test my resilience on purpose.

Yeah. And giving myself, like, a body of evidence so that I can, like, understand that whatever it is that I'm encountering, even if it is, like, uncertain or scary or massive, like, I have reason to trust myself. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And yeah, and I think that that is something that is, like- Just fucking awesome to, like, witness in, like, another person.

Mm. You know? It's, like, really, really cool to, like, see you, like, tease out the beginnings of something, and then also to see you, like, in the middle, at the end, in, like, so many different stages of, like, production and formation. Mm. Of both, like, this, like, literal thing, which is, like, a business and a podcast and a project, and also in, like, the way that you're thinking about the world and the way that you're formulating ideas.

Yeah. It's just, like, so fucking cool.

[01:31:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm. I appreciate- Yeah ... you seeing me in that. Thank you.

[01:31:13] Empress Wu: Yeah, definitely.

[01:31:14] Dr. Nicole: And thanks for coming on the show. You're, like, for the first 10 people. I had nothing established, you know what I mean? Like, so thank you for starting with me, like, seriously- I love it ... way back there, right?

Like, you're one of the first- Totally ... 10 episodes.

[01:31:28] Empress Wu: Yeah. It's it's like, yeah, it's just, like, really awesome to be like, "And now look at that."

[01:31:35] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Ah, what a joy. What a joy.

[01:31:43] Empress Wu: Yeah, truly.

[01:31:44] Dr. Nicole: Hmm. So as we come towards the end of our time for today, and surely there will be an episode down the line one day when we check in again.

[01:31:54] Empress Wu: Yes. Yeah, in another four to five years also.

[01:31:55] Dr. Nicole: Totally. Totally. I'll take another deep breath with you again

And I'll check in and see if there's anything else you wanna say to the listeners. Otherwise, I have our last closing question.

[01:32:13] Empress Wu: I think I'm just eagerly anticipating your closing question.

[01:32:16] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. May I not make you wait any longer. So the last closing question is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:32:34] Empress Wu: I think this is something that I think a lot of people know is normal, but I think I want people to feel that it is more normal, and that is the experience of being humiliated. Mm. Mm. Like, I want people to feel how normal it is to be humiliated- Oh, yeah. Yeah ... so we'd stop resisting it, like, all the time.

Yeah. Yeah. Really. I think that that's, like, really, like, the biggest thing that I can think of.

[01:33:04] Dr. Nicole: I love that for you. When was the last time you were humiliated?

[01:33:08] Empress Wu: I mean, I'm humiliated. I'm, like, microdosing humiliation all the time 'cause I think it is, like, a healthy thing for me. Um, I think that it's also, like, a thing that I think keeps me really regulated because so many people, you know, being in, like, a dominant space, like, people- Yeah

are always, like, reverent to me, and I- Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah ... consistently try to, like, undo the dangers of what I call, like, dom-itis- Yeah ... which is where you forget that you're a human being- Totally ... and your mask is glued to your face, and I never want to- Yeah.

[01:33:40] Dr. Nicole: Ouch ...

[01:33:41] Empress Wu: do that. Yeah. And um, uh, but the last time that I can, like, actively

like, the, one of the, like, last times that I can, like, actively think about, like, being humiliated and embarrassed, there were, like, a couple around, like, the summertime-

[01:34:03] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[01:34:03] Empress Wu: where, one, for my birthday my friends took me to an improv class because they were like- ... "She needs to be humiliated," and I was like, "Yeah, I do.

Um, thank you very much. This is so embarrassing." No. Um, no shade to any improvers out there. Um, so sorry- I'm so sorry ... for the collateral that, like, the strays of the improv community is catching right now.

[01:34:24] Dr. Nicole: I hear you. But I hear what you're saying.

[01:34:27] Empress Wu: But, um, second time was, um, I was talking to a friend about this.

I traveled to Ava this summer.

[01:34:34] Dr. Nicole: Uh-huh.

[01:34:34] Empress Wu: And, uh, I, like- I was traveling by myself in China and Hong Kong. Mm-hmm. And this really funny thing happened where, um, I was traveling from Guangzhou to Hong Kong, which is, uh... Like, but my travel was delayed by about a day 'cause I was traveling during typhoon season.

Sure. Okay. And just so you know, a typhoon hit Hong Kong- Ugh ... um, on the day that I was supposed to go. Ugh. And I landed and I, uh, was... I arrived in Hong Kong and I wanted to take, like, a cable car up the mountain to this place called Lantau Island. Mm-hmm. Um, which is where, like, a very iconic Buddha, basically, like, a huge, iconic Buddha statue goes.

Yeah. Yeah. Or, like, lives. And I paid for this cable car and I was like, "You know what? I'm gonna treat myself. I'm gonna spring for the crystal cable car," which is, like, the cable car that has, like, glass bottoms. Nice. And I got into this cable car with a family that I did not know, and then I forgot that one of the biggest parts about going up in a cable car is that you are very, very high in the air.

And I'm, like, humiliating myself in front of this family, 'cause I was gripping the walls and being like, "Oh, fuck. Oh, fuck." I was terrified of heights in front of these strangers.

[01:35:57] Dr. Nicole: Amazing. I love

[01:35:58] Empress Wu: that. And, like, the wind was, like, blowing through and I thought about the fact that I was, like, in a cable car up in the air, like, maybe one to two days after, like, a major hurricane.

And I was like, "Am I stupid? Am I dumb? What am I doing right now?" I'm just, like, questioning all of my life decisions. Um-

[01:36:13] Dr. Nicole: I love that.

[01:36:15] Empress Wu: But it was very necessary for me to, like- Mm ... like, regulate my own sense of, like, fear and adrenaline and be like, "Okay, I'm doing something- Mm-hmm ... that I've never done before."

And, like, engaging in things that I'm, like, building trust and tolerance with myself, so.

[01:36:30] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:36:32] Empress Wu: Yeah.

[01:36:32] Dr. Nicole: Ugh, amazing. I love that you're really pushing that. And, and it makes sense given everything that you do that you love that edge for yourself as well. I'm curious, um, if you wanna know what you said the first time that you answered that question.

[01:36:46] Empress Wu: Yeah. What did I say?

[01:36:49] Dr. Nicole: You said feeling alone.

[01:36:52] Empress Wu: Yeah. I'm like thinking about how lonely I felt during that time.

[01:37:01] Dr. Nicole: Hmm.

[01:37:03] Empress Wu: And also how helped, but also like how lonely.

[01:37:06] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. And it's amazing how we can really be in both at the same time. Like feel deeply- Definitely ... isolated in a, in a room full of people that love us.

At the same time- Yeah ... when you feel like you're really going through it, you're like, "No one understands this pa-" And, and truly no one does. Mm-hmm. 'Cause only you lived that life. But sometimes it feels like the storm is just so ever present, even when people are literally holding your hand right there with you like, "Hey, I'm here.

I'm here." I'm like, "No, you're not." You don't get it. Yes. You don't get it. Yeah. You don't understand. Oh, well, it was such a joy- Thank you for having me ... to have you on the po-

[01:37:33] Empress Wu: Yes,

[01:37:43] Dr. Nicole: such a joy. So much fun, so much fun. I'm sure everyone is dying to know how they can connect with you. Where can they find all of your stuff?

[01:37:52] Empress Wu: Yes, definitely. I am on, uh, you can find me at empresswu.net. If you would like to apply for a session, you can, uh, go to empresswu.net/registration. Um, you can also find me on Instagram as, uh, thebitchempress_ or on Twitter as thebitchempress.

You can also chat with me directly or call me on Sex Panther. That's sexpanther.com/empress-wu.

[01:38:19] Dr. Nicole: Amazing. And I'll have all that linked in the show notes below, dear listeners, so you can go right there to connect. Yes. Thank you again for coming on the show. Such a joy to have you.

[01:38:29] Empress Wu: Thank you so much for having me.

It was awesome to be here.

[01:38:34] Dr. Nicole: Dear listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Modern Anarchy. Thank you for sharing this episode with your friends, with your lovers, with your community. Truly, it means so much to me, and I am so grateful that you are here. If you are wanting to release jealousy in your non-monogamous dynamics and step into a compersion and pleasure-filled connection, you can read my book, The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide, for free on my website.

There you will also find so many other free resources, including worksheets on how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non-monogamous dynamics and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure-filled sex and relationships.

So head on over to modernanarchypodcast.com to find all of those free resources, and I look forward to seeing you next week