282. Sex Work, Relationship Anarchy, and Professional Domination - Miss Adah Von

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole. Leave her hanging all strung up. I tried to keep her quiet, but she's screaming inside of me.

On today's episode, we have Miss Ada Vaughn. Join us for a conversation about expanding our communities of care. Together we talk about underground foot parties, getting beyond prescriptive labels, and being a fan of gossip. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I'm so happy that you are here.

I'm so happy that you are tuning in with the pleasure activists from around the world who are so deeply passionate about, yeah, creating better communities, creating better relationships, finding the ways to love one another even through all the complications of what it means to be a human. I'm Dr.

Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, author of The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and the first study on relationship anarchy, and I teach students from around the world how to craft pleasurable sex lives and non-monogamous relationships. Dear listener, you know I love recording with a dominatrix, dear listener.

Oh, the heart of domination and capitalism and money and relationships and sex. I mean, this conversation is just so, so ripe. My God. The social scripts, the power exchange. I mean, for all of you who have been tuning in for the last five years, you know how much I enjoy these conversations. And it's really beautiful, I guess, to see how often these conversations that I think to the outside world are just about sex and, and as if it's about like a, you know, something surface level.

But yeah, just that these conversations ultimately go to a place of like, how do we care more for the people in our world, and how do we communicate better? And you're gonna continue to see that in the next couple of weeks of episodes. I think it's a, an undercurrent that's starting to run through all of these episodes of going from, yes, expansion and care, but also to the wider collective and, and how we can work better and together with one another.

And so dear listener, hey, thanks for tuning in. I'm glad that you are here, and I'm so, so delighted to be bringing this week's episode to you with Miss Ada Vaughan. All right, dear listener, if you're ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore all of my free offerings and resources at modernanarchypodcast.com.

That's where you'll find my e-book, The Compass of Consent, for some clear negotiation of your non-monogamous agreements, my pleasure wheel, so many other worksheets that, yeah, are really helpful to liberate your pleasure and start stepping into more expansive states of connecting with other people. So all of that is on my website, modernanarchypodcast.com.

And with that, dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love. And let's tune in to today's episode

So the first question that I love to ask each guest on the show is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:03:37] Miss Adah: Hmm. I love the nuance in that question. Mm-hmm. So, uh, I go by Ada Vaughn, Miss Ada Vaughn. I am a dominatrix and have been full-time for 10 years this year. It's 2026.

[00:03:56] Dr. Nicole: Hmm.

[00:03:56] Miss Adah: I am a dungeon owner and community leader via that.

I am a polyamorous, queer, cis, white, married woman. I I am someone who wants to live deeply and fully and expansively.

[00:04:22] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Well, you're on the right show.

[00:04:26] Miss Adah: Thank goodness. I had a feeling.

[00:04:27] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. So excited to have you. So excited.

[00:04:31] Miss Adah: It's such a treat, thank you.

[00:04:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, and like I was saying before we dropped in, I love recording with dominatrix.

I do. I do. Mm-hmm. There's just so many cultural scripts for women, so many restrictions, so many narratives that are not empowering. And so any time I get to talk to someone who holds that power- Mm ... it is really sacred. And over the years of the podcast, I've had many dominatrix who have inspired me personally, as well of my, as well as my listeners, but me personally-

to, like, stretch and stretch into new capacities. Amazing. So I'm delighted to have you here.

[00:05:09] Miss Adah: That's fantastic. It was so great going through the old, uh, episodes, just looking and seeing, like, a bunch of familiar names- Aw ... and all of that. Yes. So I've only heard great things, obviously. Amazing. So it's good to dive in with you.

[00:05:20] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. So 10 years ago. Mm-hmm. Where are you? How do you get into this? Tell me your, your story.

[00:05:29] Miss Adah: Oh, let's see. Well, I started about 10 years ago while I was going back to school. I had completed an associate's degree in my hometown after dropping out of my freshman year of college, did a little travel, yada, yada.

Like, "Okay, I guess I'll do the thing." And I had been working in the restaurant industry for, like, 10 years at that point, and I was pretty sick of it, and I had, like, a couple of bosses who made me really decide, like, "Okay- Mm ... I'd love to be, like, somewhere else." And so especially as a college student, I wanted something where I could make a bunch of money without having to put in a ton of time.

[00:06:08] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:06:09] Miss Adah: Uh, and so I thought about stripping. The options for me were a little limited because of transportation. We didn't really have, like, Uber and Lyft and stuff in the- Sure ... area at the time. You know, I took taxis places sometimes. But the biggest deciding factor was really that I was fresh out of rehab-

[00:06:29] Dr. Nicole: Mm

[00:06:30] Miss Adah: um, where I had been for a month inpatient because of drugs. And thankfully, I listened to my support system, who was like, "Maybe going into the strip club isn't the best move for you right now-" Yeah, I could

[00:06:42] Dr. Nicole: see that. Yeah ... "

[00:06:43] Miss Adah: considering that circumstance." Mm-hmm. Uh, yeah, so thankfully I didn't rebel against that.

I was like, "Okay. Yeah, that makes sense." Um, and so anyway, online I found- I, it was either on Twitter or Craigslist, something like that. Yeah. You know, ye olde Craigslist days. Um, Backpage maybe. But they were doing underground foot parties. Mm. And so it was the same thing where it was a little hit or miss, but it would be like going to a shift at the club.

So I always called it being the laziest stripper ever. 'Cause I would get 20 bucks for a guy to spend 10 minutes with my feet.

[00:07:17] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:07:17] Miss Adah: And sometimes I- they would take my shoes off, they would massage them, they would kiss them, they would put them on their face.

[00:07:22] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:07:23] Miss Adah: Um, and that was really cool. It gave me an excuse to go down to New York City more.

I really got comfortable there, and I met a lot of great people.

[00:07:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:07:32] Miss Adah: And I was lucky to have a client there at the foot party, he kinda took a shine to me, who was also really into chastity and ball busting.

[00:07:43] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:07:43] Miss Adah: Um, and so he kind of asked about doing, like, a private session, would I be interested in those things?

Yeah. And it was really kinda nice at the time. It was like, "Oh, I don't know, this feels a little silly," but it also was really helpful that he was very intellectual about everything. He liked to talk things out- Mm-hmm ... and, like, the, the motivation, the why, the- Mm ... what's going on, what's the energy exchange, what's, you know, what's happening here between us when this goes on.

And so that was a very nice, like, kinda gentle foray in. You know? Kinda had a little, a little guide. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I was just off to the races basically. You know, I had never- Yeah ... like gotten in a fight in school or anything. I'd never kicked a guy in the balls before, but he handed me a few hundred dollars and asked me to, so sure.

[00:08:30] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, why not?

[00:08:32] Miss Adah: Yeah, I guess I could get used to this, so.

[00:08:35] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:35] Miss Adah: And like you were saying earlier about the, just the power of being in, in a position like that, of like the female dominant, um, was rather intoxicating. Mm. Even just wearing the heels and walking around- Yeah ... that party was like, "Oh, this makes me feel really powerful.

I really like the person that I feel like I am when I step into this role."

[00:08:59] Dr. Nicole: Hell yeah. Amazing. Yeah.

[00:09:01] Miss Adah: And so since I was upstate, I wasn't doing shifts at like a house dungeon where they just- Mm-hmm ... have girls and like, you know, people can do walk-ins sort of thing.

[00:09:08] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:09:09] Miss Adah: So I got really lucky. I got a couple of mentors in the space who are women- Yeah

who had been doing this for 20-plus years, which was so inspirational, a big part of the reason why I was able to give myself permission to do it as a career. You know, I was going- Mm-hmm ... down to New York at first. I was like, "Oh, this'll work because I'm auditioning for shows," 'cause I was a theater major.

[00:09:29] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:09:29] Miss Adah: Yeah. And it very... Yeah, so like theoretically I was auditioning for shows. But in actuality this just was like, I just fell for it and I just dove in headfirst. Mm. Yeah. Um, and so I would go down for the parties and to meet people and do sessions in hotels and dungeons and all that good stuff. I connected with several awesome people who I still consider very good friends.

Mm. You know, Empress Wu, who I know- Yeah ... you've had on, is just like one of my favorite people ever, and we started like just around the same time in New York. Mm. So it's been, it's been quite a journey, and it's nice to have people to like h- do that reminiscing with and stuff too, like see how far we've come.

[00:10:09] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, the joy of relationships. It's one of the biggest ones, is to Have people who've been there for the journey to be like, "Remember when you were over there?"

[00:10:18] Miss Adah: Right.

[00:10:19] Dr. Nicole: Right, right, right. 100%. As well as... Yeah, and shared understanding. That's so- Mm ... essential. Your mentorships, the people in your community who get- Yes

what a unique experience your job is or my job, right? Like, it's such a different career than the norm, and so- Right ... you need people who understand what you're going through. And so I'm curious, even before this, is your sex education pleasure-filled and expansive? I almost feel like the answer is immediately no.

Like, it's really rare that we get people in America at least. You

[00:10:54] Miss Adah: are correct- Okay ... unfortunately. Yep,

[00:10:56] Dr. Nicole: yep. Don't wanna assume, but...

[00:10:59] Miss Adah: We live in a society where-

[00:11:01] Dr. Nicole: Right, right ...

[00:11:02] Miss Adah: um, yeah, yeah. I would say that's something that I started exploring more recently.

[00:11:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm. '

[00:11:08] Miss Adah: Cause I didn't have, like, a lot of sex education.

Yeah. It was one of those, like, we don't really talk about it. Like, um, but the, the one thing that stuck out to me, where it's like I can't remember the exact source, like, moment, but even until, like, last year, I'm still working on it, but if I would see, like, a sex scene on TV or in a movie, I would get, like, really big, intense gut feels.

[00:11:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:11:34] Miss Adah: And was like, "Oh, how interesting." Like, at first I felt kinda like, like negative. I'm trying to- Mm ... neutralize these feelings and stuff these days, you know. Yeah. But it was like, "Oh, like, this feels really intense. I don't know if I like this. Like, I feel like I should look away."

[00:11:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm, interesting.

[00:11:48] Miss Adah: Mm-hmm. And it's only recently where I've started to...

And, like, I think that comes from, you know, watching movies or TV as a kid. Mm. And I can, like, vaguely remember the feeling of being in the room with my parents- Yeah. ... and something comes on the screen, and all of a sudden it's, like, really tense.

[00:12:05] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:12:05] Miss Adah: You know? And it's like, I probably didn't really get why, but, like, I knew- Oh

that was a thing, that like, oh, this, this creates emotions, I guess. Mm-hmm. This, this stands out for some reason. Um- Mm-hmm ... and that was really, like, stuck in my little, you know, little me, uh- Totally ... body and stuff. So-

[00:12:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah ...

[00:12:24] Miss Adah: it's been, it's been cool exploring that, honestly. Like, your podcast has helped a lot- Mm

thinking about, like- Using, like, the jealousy tools that you've put out. Sure. And even the recent or, uh, episode on jealousy orgasms was, like, fascinating to me. Oh, Dr.

[00:12:39] Dr. Nicole: Joli.

[00:12:39] Miss Adah: I love her. Like, yes. Like, exploring that connection between the jealousy and the erotic and the sexual is, like, I'm still just getting started.

We're still taking baby steps. Mm. But there's definitely something there.

[00:12:54] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah. I feel like we'll take baby steps for a lifetime on that one. 'Cause it's, it's our erotic edge. Like, quite, quite literally the edge of fear- Yeah ... and individuation and connection all at once. And it's, it's why I use the metaphors of psychedelics so often because anyone who's done a psychedelic journey at higher doses knows how terrifying, confusing, and beautiful all at the same time it can be.

Mm. And I feel a lot of that in the non-monogamy- ... and jealousy space of, like, what is... Who am I? Where... Are we safe? I think we're grounded. Weird things are happening. But it does get better.

[00:13:30] Miss Adah: Oh, that's, that's so real.

[00:13:33] Dr. Nicole: But it does get better. That's right. It does get better, though. Yeah.

[00:13:33] Miss Adah: We hang on for the ride.

We learn how to manage the, the waves, right?

[00:13:37] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:38] Miss Adah: Mm-hmm. Yep, that's big. That's big in my- Mm-hmm ... my therapy these days is, uh... Actually, I'm doing couples counseling with my husband. Mm. And, like, a lot of the work is just expressing our feelings and then sitting in those feelings.

[00:13:51] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:13:52] Miss Adah: Like, I always get yelled at for going right to solution brain.

Mm. Like, "Okay, well, if I do this or if I do that, then I can fix it." Totally. Totally. "And we won't have to feel this anymore." Like if only that were the case.

[00:14:02] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, I mean, my partner does not love that when he's got big emotions, and I'm like, "Well, why don't you just do A, B, C, D?" You know? And he's like, "I'm sad."

I'm like, "Well, but A, B, C, D."

[00:14:13] Miss Adah: We can fix the sad.

[00:14:15] Dr. Nicole: But then when he gives that to me, I'm like, "Why don't you see me?" Like- Oh my God ... "Why can't you see my tears? How dare you- Right ... just try to solve this," you know? It's so funny. It's, it's a humbling... Couples therapy is a humbling journey in and of itself.

[00:14:27] Miss Adah: Truly.

It is. It is. It's definitely teaching me a lot about myself- Oh, yeah ... which is cool.

[00:14:33] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know? Yeah. I know I met someone, uh... I teach yoga once a week, and it's like the only time that I, you know, work and enjoy connection in a way that's not cognitive. You know, it's more of the embodiment time.

Mm. Oh, yeah. But it was nice. I had someone come up after and we started talking, and they mentioned like non-violent communication and being in couples therapy, and they were like, "Yeah, just these times where like, you know, with my partner, I just wanted to..." And we both at the same time said, "Kill them." Like, you know-

very jokingly, to be clear to the listener and for the written transcript of this. I do not want to kill my partners. No. However, I think it's a very real experience- ... to be so frustrated that that is the statement that comes out of your mouth. You're just like, "Oh my God, I just wanna murder them. This is-" 100%.

I'm dying." You know? It's very real. It

[00:15:20] Miss Adah: is. I'm nodding along like crazy over here. Yeah,

[00:15:23] Dr. Nicole: exactly. Like, yeah. Exactly. Yep.

[00:15:24] Miss Adah: Uh-huh.

[00:15:25] Dr. Nicole: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. So the parts of ourselves. The parts of ourselves that get activated, right?

[00:15:32] Miss Adah: Like they get activated. They demand to be seen and to be heard. Mm-hmm. And they don't want us to just push them down and move past it.

[00:15:40] Dr. Nicole: No. No. Mm-mm. Not at all. Not at all. Yeah, when you were talking about the, uh, the movie scenes growing up with your family that would feel hot and tense- It's, uh, for me it was Titanic. We would watch that as a family. You know, that's- Oh, nice ... that scene where she puts the hand up on- Ah. So

[00:16:00] Miss Adah: steamy, literally.

Yes. 100%. Which- Oh,

[00:16:03] Dr. Nicole: love that for you ... which is interesting. I went to Pakistan for a wedding many years ago for a friend's wedding, and, um, they had the Titanic on the, like, national TV there. Mm. They cut out all of the scenes that had anything even with kissing.

[00:16:18] Miss Adah: Oh, interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, I feel like- Yeah

that's a good chunk of the movie, but- Yes ... I, I guess there's a lot of other stuff theoretically.

[00:16:26] Dr. Nicole: Totally. It's not

[00:16:27] Miss Adah: like re-watched it over and

[00:16:28] Dr. Nicole: over and

[00:16:28] Miss Adah: over again. No. But it is there. Oh.

[00:16:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, and I, I, um, in my Pleasure Liberation Sexuality program group, uh, one of the guided meditations I take people through is this, uh, reflecting on even just the felt presence of- Mm

sexual messages, like the things that weren't said. You know, in that moment when we're with our families and we feel that tension in our body, it's not like anyone outright said, "Hey, sex is bad. Just so you know, this naughty thing is happening." Right. It's this very primal human experience where you can feel the tension in the breath.

You can feel the room shift, and- Mm ... people will be like, "Oh, that's woo woo," but you can feel that shit.

[00:17:08] Miss Adah: Oh, 100%. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

[00:17:13] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm,

[00:17:13] Miss Adah: mm-hmm. And it, like, sticks around too. You know? Like, I feel like when I first started trying to- I don't know if define is the right word- Mm-hmm ... but, you know, be more...

Oh, the word is not, like, more active and less passive- Sure ... about my polyamory. Sure. Like, more like what shall we define, you know, different things like that. Uh, one of my first forays in was polysecure.

[00:17:39] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:17:39] Miss Adah: And- Mm-hmm ... so I feel like that was, like- Yeah ... a good few months. I'm like, when did I move out of that?

'Cause it feels like a long time, that it was like, oh, like I haven't thought about any of this childhood stuff in-

[00:17:51] Dr. Nicole: Totally ...

[00:17:51] Miss Adah: a very long time, but it's still so relevant.

[00:17:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I'm still fangirling over here that Jessica Fern is mentoring me, so I was just with her before this podcast.

Incredible.

[00:18:02] Miss Adah: Incredible.

[00:18:03] Dr. Nicole: I know, I know. I'm like, oh my God, what is my life? This is so cool. Uh, the stuff in there on attachment and parts work is foundational, foundational. Mm-hmm. And she's been helping me write the curriculum for my programs, and one of the things we were talking about today was power dynamics- Mm

and, in sexuality, and so I started first with a discussion on power dynamics and how they're inherent in all relationships- Cool ... all the time.

[00:18:31] Miss Adah: Yep.

[00:18:31] Dr. Nicole: Everywhere, always. I think that's a great starting p- point in terms of consciousness building. Mm-hmm. Before we even play with them, how do we recognize they're everywhere all the time all at once?

Got it. Got it.

[00:18:41] Miss Adah: Absolutely,

[00:18:42] Dr. Nicole: yeah. And so I had this wheel of, um, marginalization that I had found on the internet, um, from an artist and put it in there, and we were looking at the different parts of the wheel, and it had many of the different things that you would consider in terms of age, sexuality, ability, um, housing, um, so many of the different things on the wheel that you would consider.

One thing, there was two things that we named were missing. Spirituality, which in our current context, the more you get towards Christianity, the more you are the power norm of America- Mm-hmm ... for sure. Mm-hmm. And one of the other things that was not named at all on that wheel was relational orientation, and we were both just kind of like giggling but also sad at the thought of like, wow, here's a wheel on marginalization, and you're not even named in the wheel.

Ugh,

[00:19:32] Miss Adah: the layers. Yeah. Oh, man.

[00:19:35] Dr. Nicole: I'm like, that's not good. Like, if you're not named on the marginalization wheel, that's not good.

[00:19:39] Miss Adah: Right. How marginalized are you? Like, wow, we didn't even make it on the list. Oy.

[00:19:45] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Career could be another great one, too. Thinking about- Absolutely ... that legality of your career. I mean, they had- Mm-hmm

citizenship, race, many others, but there's so many more pieces to that in terms of the different ways that all of these power dynamics are coming together to create the systems we're in.

[00:20:03] Miss Adah: Absolutely. Well, yeah, 'cause the way you put it, it's like not even the legality necessarily, but the stigma is like- Mm

through the whole industry- Mm-hmm ... even for the parts that are so legal, and that's why I like to identify as a sex worker a lot of the- Yeah ... time because I'm like, we have to crush the whorearchy. Yeah. You know? Like, this idea that there are tiers of sex workers that are better than others depending on the format that they take.

[00:20:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:27] Miss Adah: Um- Mm-hmm ... which just feels so dangerous, like, mostly for that reason. Like, it doesn't matter if one is legal and one is not. Like, the larger society is viewing us the same way. They're putting the same stigma on all of us. Absolutely. You know?

[00:20:42] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:42] Miss Adah: So like, why wouldn't we want to stand together-

[00:20:45] Dr. Nicole: Right

[00:20:46] Miss Adah: against that? So it's just like, oh, we don't need that infighting, you know?

[00:20:50] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. I hear you. I hear

[00:20:53] Miss Adah: you. But yeah, so community is, like, so important, not only to, like, for everyone, of course, as humans, but it feels like especially in my job. I got lost in, like, creating community for a few years.

Mm-hmm. Putting up my dungeon. I had to open it to events to the larger public to, like- Mm ... keep it running and sustainable- Sure ... and stuff. Um, and I had this huge moment last year where I went to a sex worker group hangout- Cool ... um, in, in Albany, and that was so huge. That was such, like, a watershed moment for me where I was able to just have these conversations and talk to people about these things that I've, I've sorta talked with other people, and I try and, like, you know, process.

I'm a verbal processor, so I try- Sure ... and do that, but y- you know, having to explain each little different whatever as opposed to just be able to say what I'm going through and they get it.

[00:21:47] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah.

[00:21:48] Miss Adah: You know? Yeah. So it's been so real. Like, I found that, like, as a sex worker, and I'm realizing, like, especially if you live your ni- life in any non-traditional way, like I have a non-traditional career.

I also have non-traditional relationships. You know, if you're a poly person, you have to, like- Like, not only who do you talk to about your stuff, but how do you talk about your stuff to the other people in your life? And having someone where you don't have to dance around it, like parents- Mm-hmm ... or whatever else, family, that kind of thing- Yeah

I think is just, that's so important.

[00:22:21] Dr. Nicole: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. As you were speaking to that I was thinking about just the spectrum that you can have of, you know, the people who are judging, bringing forth bigotry and hatred to the people who are accepting. And but, but also like saying things that are still a part of their learning journey.

Um you know? Like- Very nice

[00:22:43] Miss Adah: way to put that.

[00:22:44] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking about like, uh, people at the climbing gym who have told me like, "Oh, you're polyamorous? Aren't you worried about STDs?" Which should be STIs, but that was the frame of what I was hit with, where you're like- Mm-hmm ... okay, like you're accepting, but that co- like ugh, ow,

[00:23:00] Miss Adah: ugh.

There's layers there too. Yeah.

[00:23:01] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:23:02] Miss Adah: For sure.

[00:23:03] Dr. Nicole: Or the friends who are like, "That's cool that you do that, but that's crazy. I could never do that." Oh my gosh. Any time you ask for support, you know, you're like, "I'm processing this about a metamour," and they're like, "I, well, I could never." And you're like, "Well, okay this is..."

To then like people who get it, people who are practicing, and then yeah, the depth of experience, conversation, support, seen-ness, creativity even that you can do- Mm ... together.

[00:23:26] Miss Adah: Oh, I love that.

[00:23:28] Dr. Nicole: World's different, and that's not to say we should remove everybody from our communities who doesn't fit into that perfect, you know, alignment.

And also, yeah, we need additional spaces where we can really step into our creativity and seen-ness with other people who get it.

[00:23:45] Miss Adah: Mm-hmm. 100%. 100%. It makes me think of, I've been thinking a lot about like community and camaraderie.

[00:23:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm. And like

[00:23:53] Miss Adah: what those terms mean to me.

[00:23:55] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:55] Miss Adah: And it sounds like, you know, like I think we need the camaraderie.

You know? Like we can get along with people even if we're not necessarily friends, but we believe in the same things. We want to work towards the same goals. Right. Like, okay, great, cool. But that's... It's, it's a different level. I feel like you still need that core crew in a way, like you said, to really be seen.

'Cause otherwise it would just be exhausting.

[00:24:20] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And it is, and there's many people who are there. I mean, many people- Yeah ... will come to me being like, "Oh, I really wanna work on releasing shame, releasing shame," and I can do like a pretty quick check-in of like, "Who are the five closest people in your life?"

And they're like five people that are judging them. They're not safe to be queer. They're not safe to be non-monogamous. They're not safe to this. Mm. And then they come to me and they're like, "So what's wrong with me?"

[00:24:41] Miss Adah: Oh.

[00:24:42] Dr. Nicole: You know, like

[00:24:43] Miss Adah: why- Yeah, that's

[00:24:43] Dr. Nicole: heartbreaking. Why do I have shame? Why do I have shame?

And I'm like- Yeah. Ooh, I'm like- Well, I wonder. Yeah.

[00:24:45] Miss Adah: Yeah, yeah. Hmm. You know? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Oh,

yeah, I'm very grateful, and I feel very lucky to be as out as I am- Mm-hmm ... um, in, like, all of these unconventional areas of my life. You know, my nuclear family is super supportive. Um- Good ... I'm really lucky that way. It's really cool. But then I have, like, you know, the one side of the family that lives in the Midwest, and I don't talk to as often, and are, like, very conservative.

And, you know, there's always a lot of feelings, uh- Yeah ... going into, like, planning a trip there. Right. Do I plan a trip there? And just knowing what it takes out of me.

[00:25:29] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yep. You know? They're praying for us.

Cue witch laugh. That they

[00:25:37] Miss Adah: are.

[00:25:38] Dr. Nicole: Like, just like, "Oh, keep praying."

[00:25:41] Miss Adah: Exactly. Like, each... I mean, I appreciate it, I guess.

[00:25:45] Dr. Nicole: I guess. Yeah, yeah. Keep it to yourself, though, as you do it, please.

[00:25:49] Miss Adah: There you go. Right. I don't need to hear you blessin' my heart. I know what that means.

[00:25:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I'm curious for you, was the sex work a part of what brought you into polyamory and non-monogamy, or was that before then, after then?

How do these two things coexist for you?

[00:26:13] Miss Adah: That's a great question. I kind of discovered them around the same time- Mm-hmm ... or at least, like, began manifesting these things in myself around the same time. My husband and I have been together for about 13 years now. Mm-hmm. And so there was a long period, probably most of our relationship, where it was, like, fairly open.

I always kind of had the freedom to do what I want, and he would still stick around, but we didn't have good conversations. We didn't define boundaries or desires or, you know, discuss anything about each other's safety- Yeah ... basically. And it got really, really messy. Hmm. Yeah. If

[00:27:00] Dr. Nicole: you know? Um- Yeah. Anything you

[00:27:00] Miss Adah: wanna share?

Unsurprisingly, probably. I'm not sure.

[00:27:05] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:27:05] Miss Adah: Well, you know, like, when I was, I was going back to school and stuff, and I would like- Sure ... have flings here and there, and that was always, like, fun, and there would be, like, a little tension, but it was still kind of fine. You know, like, it kinda works out with my husband and my, like, proclivities you could say.

Mm-hmm. Um, he's, like, cool with me going out and doing that stuff. But it was when I got into, like, a serious relationship- Hmm.

[00:27:29] Dr. Nicole: Sure ...

[00:27:30] Miss Adah: I actually was dating, um... They had a daughter, and, uh, it was, like, the beginning of COVID sort of that we decided to, like, really make it official, and so we ended up doing the pod thing and spending just- Hmm

so much time together.

[00:27:46] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:27:48] Miss Adah: And it got to the point where we were, like, talking about, like, do we want, you know, her and the kid to move in with us, and, like, all this other stuff.

[00:27:56] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:27:57] Miss Adah: Um, but before we even had that conversation, they would be at the house, like, all the time and that sort of thing. Hmm. And there was never discussion around that.

[00:28:05] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:28:05] Miss Adah: Um, and so it wasn't until recently actually we were talking about it with my boyfriend, and he's like, "So you guys just basically, like, signed up to be parents without really, like, talking or thinking about it? Like, no wonder it was, like, fell apart." Yeah. I'm like, "Oh, that's, that's a really good point," you know?

[00:28:22] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:28:25] Miss Adah: Um, and so- Honestly, like he and I didn't even look at like the trauma that that- Sure ... relationship and dynamic caused.

[00:28:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:35] Miss Adah: Um, because we were all like doing our best, but again, we didn't have these negotiations and conversations ahead of time in a way- Mm ... that would have given us at least a starting point to jump off of when something happened.

Instead it was just like something happened, now we're in emergency mode.

[00:28:52] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:28:53] Miss Adah: Um, which was not useful and didn't really feel good to anyone by the end of it. Right. You know?

[00:28:57] Dr. Nicole: Right. Totally. Yeah. Yes. Wisdom learned along the journey.

[00:29:03] Miss Adah: Yeah. They were my submissive. We did a lot of- Mm ... like public facing like photo shoots and clips together- Sure

and things like that. And you know, I think when I started learning like about relationship anarchy and- Mm-hmm ... what that term means and things like that, part of what I love about it is the freedom from definitions and how you can say like, "This is a relationship that's super important to me, and I really, really value it," even if it doesn't have, you know, a traditional term that people- Right

would give to it that makes people understand why it's so important to you.

[00:29:38] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:39] Miss Adah: Um, or even if it does, like valuing those things in a different way, you know, not putting romantic relationships above friendships, et cetera. Right. Um, and so it was really kind of a relief to like learn about all of that, you know, because whether it was my flings or other partner or like clients and stuff like that, there's all these non-traditional relationships where I'm interacting with people and we're kind of figuring it out as we go.

[00:30:04] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:30:05] Miss Adah: Which is a lot.

[00:30:07] Dr. Nicole: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

[00:30:08] Miss Adah: Uh-huh. But you know, the other reframing is like, oh, isn't that nice that you can make it whatever you want?

[00:30:14] Dr. Nicole: Right. Right. Right. Right. Absolutely. You know? Absolutely. And

[00:30:17] Miss Adah: so it's definitely been interesting to see that intersect, like the interweave of- personal and professional and- Oh,

[00:30:25] Dr. Nicole: yeah

[00:30:25] Miss Adah: where do I blur those lines or hold them fast or whatever else. So yeah, exactly.

[00:30:33] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot. When does work end? I don't know. I don't know, actually. Mm-hmm. Um, yes. Yes. Exactly,

[00:30:43] Miss Adah: exactly. Yeah. Like, oh, I'm supposed to be a good business woman here. Oh, but, like, I'm having a lot of feelings about this person-

and really enjoying it in a way that I wouldn't, I don't normally in my professional life or haven't before. You know? It's like, oh, how much can I lean into that and enjoy it? Or, like, I've definitely gotten in trouble that way before. Mm. People have come in, and we had an amazing connection and did, like, a really great session or two and we texted for a few weeks after, and then they just disappear.

Mm. It's always my highest paying clients, by the way. Fuck. Fuck me. Any of the people that made, like, the most money, it's like, okay, I'm never gonna hear from you again apparently. Aw.

[00:31:15] Dr. Nicole: Um,

[00:31:16] Miss Adah: but it's fun while it lasts sort of thing. But the- Yeah ... the first time or two I really got in my feels when they stopped answering.

[00:31:22] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:31:22] Miss Adah: You know? And it's like, nah, like, that's why they pay me. That's part of the deal.

[00:31:27] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah. Clients will just leave at any point. Mm-hmm. And I think they forget, like, oh, I am a human being on the other side that's like, "Well, wait, what happened? Like, what happened?" "Um, did I do something wrong?

Are you okay?" Like, what happened? I

[00:31:40] Miss Adah: know. It's just- Not me Googling their name for obituaries. Like- Yeah,

[00:31:44] Dr. Nicole: totally. Like, are you still alive?

[00:31:45] Miss Adah: Really. Exactly. You know? Like, are you still... Are you

[00:31:47] Dr. Nicole: okay? Okay.

[00:31:48] Miss Adah: Right. Well, and I did- Yeah ... I had this sub who was 75 years old. Aw, man. He was a great guy. We were together for, like, three years or so.

Yeah. And it was like a revelation, 'cause, you know- Oh ... he grew up in whatever era. He couldn't be kinky and blah, blah, blah. Yeah,

[00:32:01] Dr. Nicole: yeah, yeah.

[00:32:02] Miss Adah: But so he passed in May of last year, and it was, like, kind of sudden, and the way that I found out was, like, really weird. I just had a key to his house and was like, "I haven't heard from him.

I'm gonna go by."

[00:32:16] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:32:16] Miss Adah: And that sort of stuff. But it just made me think a lot about, like, these relationships and where I stand with these people and what those relationships mean. Um- And they're very special in that way. Like even if he wanted to, I don't think he could have explained our relationship to his family.

Hmm. You know? Yeah. I don't think that's something they might be open to understanding necessarily.

[00:32:42] Dr. Nicole: Yeah,

[00:32:43] Miss Adah: I mean- And so why would they tell me that he died? They don't really know that, that I exist or like how important I am in his life, even if we have met in passing kind of thing.

[00:32:51] Dr. Nicole: Totally. Totally. Yeah.

[00:32:53] Miss Adah: So yeah. Yeah. Like all these different things that can be really heavy. And like even with that one, like thank God I knew kind of thing. Like I'm so glad I found out. At the time it was like, "Oh, that was traumatic," but like I'm really grateful that I found out. Mm-hmm. Because there are all of these times where people will just disappear, and that's just part of the deal.

[00:33:11] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And you have to not take it personally as a worker in this. You just literally can't.

[00:33:16] Miss Adah: Right.

[00:33:16] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. You just literally cannot, otherwise you'll just spin your wheel. Did I say too much there? Did I do too much there? Right. Like just ev- like for a good couple of weeks, you know.

[00:33:26] Miss Adah: You stop seeing me.

You're like, "Did I- Yes. Exactly ...

[00:33:27] Dr. Nicole: how can I be perfect next time, actually?" Mm-hmm. You know? What did I do wrong? What could it be? Uh. Yeah. My mentors are always like, "Maybe, maybe they're not ready, Nicole." That's the other thing, is maybe you had the wisdom. Like Jessica Fern, for example- Mm-hmm ... in her supervision, she was like, "One time I gave s- this feedback to someone who told me to fuck off and ru- ran out of the session straight up."

Oh, my. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Therapy, crazy shit, you know? Like, like- ... like if you challenge a client in their vulnerability and they do not like it, yeah, she was like, "He told me to fuck off." Oh, my. And it wasn't until like a year later that he wrote a letter and was like, "Thank you for giving me the medicine I needed.

I wasn't ready to hear it at the time." Mm-hmm. "But like I really appreciate that." And so like that, that's part of the like thick skin you have to have in this game- Yeah ... of like if you're pushing people, whether it's to their erotic edge or their emotional edge, like they will come back and be like, "Fuck you," and you're like, "Okay."

Mm-hmm. "Like I respect that. We can honor your parts that are here, and like, uh, take accountability for what I'm bringing to this container, too." 'Cause the psychodynamic lens is always like the client's wrong, but it's like sometimes it's the clinician, too. You know, it's co-created. So like- I get that ... yeah, there's just a lot to process there in that.

And, and I feel like this discussion of, um, really what we're talking about is like business, capitalism, connection, community, and where all these lines go, which is a deeply political conversation of- What it means to be relational workers in this world. And, you know, so much of the systems, like, are, are so separated, cold- Mm-hmm

transactions, and we kind of lose the humanity. And the more you get into these sorts of healing spaces with relationships, what you're doing in those spaces, I think you, you can feel... ideally you're noticing, right? Not many- Mm-hmm ... some people don't notice these things, but like-

[00:35:11] Miss Adah: True,

[00:35:12] Dr. Nicole: true. You know what I mean?

Like some people- ... are just doing it and whatever. But, like, if you are conscious and aware, the more, like, pain you start to feel of like- Mm-hmm ... what the fuck is this and what is happening and what does it mean, where are the boundaries, where should they... Yeah. I'm, I mean, when I wrote my dissertation on relationship anarchy, in the dedication portion I had said, uh, I, I don't know it exactly, but it was something like, "For all you relationship anarchists who are on this wild acid trip."

"I love you and this is for you." You know, like-

[00:35:41] Miss Adah: Oh, 100%. '

[00:35:43] Dr. Nicole: Cause it's just like w- you know, yes, we can talk about the professional lens, right, of what is this relationship through a relationship anarchy lens. Mm-hmm. And for, for many of the listeners and people who don't work in this space, I do know I have a lot of therapists on here, so hey guys.

Um- Heyo ...

[00:35:58] Miss Adah: you know? Heyo. My therapist and I talk all the time about how similar our jobs are. Totally. I don't mean to interrupt you, but just it's... Yes. No,

[00:36:03] Dr. Nicole: it's good. It's good. It's good. It's good. Um, but yeah, just like the, the ways in which we... there are so many narratives that are sold to us of how to interact and what relationships are.

Like even beyond the non-monogamy lens. You know, like way beyond just the non-monogamy lens, which is what I appreciate about relationship anarchy. It's not just on- Yeah ... the sex piece. Although I tend to focus on that 'cause that's my expertise and area I'm passionate about. But like it is so much- Right

more than that.

[00:36:33] Miss Adah: Exactly. It really can be.

[00:36:36] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:36:37] Miss Adah: It's very flexible, very expansive, like we said. We like, we like that. Expanding our circles of care- Mm-hmm ... I feel like I might have heard on this show. Um-

[00:36:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:36:46] Miss Adah: and that sort of thing. Because it's all, it all feels like part of liberation to me. Yes. Which really, like, lights a fire under my ass, you know?

It's, um, I've been reading a lot of Ismatu Gwendolyn's work lately.

[00:37:00] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:37:01] Miss Adah: And, uh, she, she had this great line where she said, you know, like something about like, "I invite people to dip a toe in deviation for the sake of liberation." Mm-hmm. Beautiful. Because she's defining what, yeah, what is deviation from the norm?

What is sanity versus insanity, and what's expected of us in the capitalist reality that we live in?

[00:37:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:25] Miss Adah: And I feel like both- You know, all, I think, like BDSM, sex work, and polyamory all really kind of do that, where it is deviating from the norm very much so, but it's finding the empowerment in that.

It's not just like, for me, like sex work especially, you know, people talk about how it's empowering for the women who do it as like- Mm-hmm ... kind of a way to combat SWERFs and stuff, which like- Yeah ... first of all doesn't need to be true for it to be valid. You can do work- Mm-hmm ... that is not empowering and it is still valid work.

Yeah. Um, but for me it's not just like the sexual or the financial empowerment that they talk about all the time, but it's allowing yourself to have this more expansive worldview, this worldview beyond what am I doing going into the office and- Yeah ... working for someone else and whatever else. It's like, oh, what do I need to do in my life?

You're making all the decisions, and you realize you can make them outside of the, the grind, you know, the rat race or whatever else, which like we're not shown how to do. We're not really told that that's a possibility. And I feel like it's becoming- Right ... more so with the internet. People, you know, there's a lot more flexibility and an expansion of the types of jobs that people are able to do, which is really cool.

[00:38:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:49] Miss Adah: But yeah, I feel like sex work has always kind of been in that like weird liminal space of like it's very real and it exists, you know, but it doesn't, it's not as, uh Can't think of the right word. It's not as, like, structured, I suppose- No ... you could say. Not

[00:39:09] Dr. Nicole: America, yeah.

[00:39:10] Miss Adah: Right. Not

[00:39:10] Dr. Nicole: America.

[00:39:11] Miss Adah: Right.

Exactly. Exactly. And so there's a lot of flexibility there, and you just start seeing like, "Oh, okay, I can live my life this other way." And, like, I def- I, I, I'm always trying to live in the what if of what if this keeps going right forever?

[00:39:31] Dr. Nicole: Ugh.

[00:39:31] Miss Adah: Like-

[00:39:31] Dr. Nicole: Please give me more of that magic sauce.

[00:39:33] Miss Adah: Yeah, exactly. Like, what if, you know, I could have everything I ever wanted?

Um- Yeah ... because my anxious imagination always goes to- I hear you ... the negative what ifs. Oh, yeah. You know, the scary ones.

[00:39:44] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:39:45] Miss Adah: And so that, I get that a lot with sex work. It can feel very precarious, even though based on- Sure ... the evidence of my life the past 10 years, like, we're doing great. I shouldn't have- Yeah

to worry. Things are going okay.

[00:39:58] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:39:58] Miss Adah: Um, but like we were talking about before, just because of society's perception and being outside of-

[00:40:05] Dr. Nicole: Yep ...

[00:40:06] Miss Adah: the, the reality that a lot of people live in- Yeah ... um, has, has some, some pros and some cons, definitely.

[00:40:14] Dr. Nicole: Right. Like I was talking about with the client who has so much shame, and then their whole community, right?

There's the systemic forces that are deeply internalized. I mean, even, like some of my payment processors have deemed me as, quote-unquote, "high risk," because I'm in a- Oh my gosh ... sex and psychedelic space. Really? And I'm like, like, I'm a fucking doctor. Like, I got the thing, the thing that's supposed to- Literally

like, protect me, you know? Like, what, why am I... I'm ban- what? Ugh.

[00:40:41] Miss Adah: Right. Like,

[00:40:42] Dr. Nicole: so of

[00:40:42] Miss Adah: course. Or like how adult, adult companies, adult industry, like strip clubs and, you know, adult videos and stuff didn't get any, like, um, disbursements during COVID or anything like that, or they were giving out, like, free money and small business loans.

Like, nope, nope, sorry, you, like, you know, there might be naked people there or whatever else. Yeah. You guys might talk about genitals. And like nope, no money for you. And it's like- Yeah ... what the fuck? Like, I pay taxes. I pay an ass ton of taxes.

[00:41:06] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:41:06] Miss Adah: And part of that is, like, trying to legitimize myself so I can do what I wanna do in this world, maybe purchasing property or whatever else.

But like... And just as a, to feel safe.

[00:41:15] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:41:16] Miss Adah: You know? It's that gross thing where like I don't wanna pay taxes to a government that doesn't protect me or give a shit. Totally. But that feels like maybe it will protect me if I play along. Mm-hmm. Which is infuriating.

[00:41:31] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it's clearly not here to serve us in any way, shape, or form, and that's- Right

abundantly clear that the systems are not here to serve us in that way. Truly. And the more that we can come together to have conversations about that, and consciousness raise, and find new ways of creating community and businesses, 'cause we still need to thrive in our current world despite-

[00:41:54] Miss Adah: Right

[00:41:54] Dr. Nicole: imagining another world where maybe it isn't even anything like this at all. But- Mm ... for right now, we are still right here, and so we can't just be in that other world yet. We're gonna work towards it. Exactly. So, like, in the here and the now, how do we build more relational containers, and care, and all that?

That's essential to this sort of work. And, and the more that we can build community, the more that we can ease, especially when you are a business owner like myself, too. Like, there, there's some real stress where if, like, our clients disappear, we're fucked. Like-

[00:42:24] Miss Adah: Right.

[00:42:25] Dr. Nicole: You know? Like, there's just no... You know?

Oh,

[00:42:27] Miss Adah: gotta love the gig economy.

[00:42:29] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:42:30] Miss Adah: Truly.

[00:42:30] Dr. Nicole: And so the more we have, like, community of people, the more we can feel trusted, and that, like, we have, you know, webs and webs of support. And again, that's, that's the frame of relationship anarchy, you know, is, like, how can we trust in mutual aid, and sharing, and making the work that we do accessible?

That's such an important part, you know, as someone who came from, like, first generation college student ever to be where I'm at now, and in so much student loans. Like-

[00:42:57] Miss Adah: Mm ...

[00:42:58] Dr. Nicole: don't even get me started on that one with the government- ... and how long they're delaying my income-driven repayment plan. Oh, God. But anyhow.

Yeah. Uh- Nope, I feel you

[00:43:07] Miss Adah: there ...

[00:43:07] Dr. Nicole: I still, sliding scale. That's important. It's important. It's important, you know? And so doing that sort of work, we get to create the ecosystems, um, and really create that other world.

[00:43:17] Miss Adah: Yeah, that's huge. That's huge. And I'm really grateful for it, as well as being terrified by it.

[00:43:25] Dr. Nicole: Exactly, and that's, that's human, and very understandable, and legit- ... and not some Pollyanna pleasure bullshit. You know

[00:43:37] Miss Adah: what

[00:43:37] Dr. Nicole: I

[00:43:38] Miss Adah: mean? Like like, let's be real.

[00:43:38] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. I'm- Yeah ... I'm curious, too, like, for you, you know, Jessica Fern, attachment, parts work. You know, when we think about parts work, I'm curious what part of you had to die to become a powerful dominatrix?

[00:43:54] Miss Adah: Ooh. That's a great question.

[00:43:57] Dr. Nicole: I'm sure there are many parts, so that's maybe a little bit-

binary of me to say one, but...

[00:44:02] Miss Adah: No, but let's see. I think- Um, well, I don't think it died necessarily. Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like, of course I still battle, you know, self-worth and insecurity type stuff. Sure. But I was bullied a lot as a kid-

[00:44:18] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:44:19] Miss Adah: and I feel like there was some part of me where... Well, first of all, I was told like, "Oh, you're bossy," you know, "She's too loud," and all of that sort of stuff, where I'm like, "Well, that's a pro in my field now," so

[00:44:31] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely.

Thank you, entrepreneur. We'll take it.

[00:44:32] Miss Adah: Yes, exactly. Like, well, it's a positive thing now, but at the time it was like, "Oh, there's something wrong with me." Yeah. Um, and it was the part of self-worth that had to do with boundaries, I think, which of course- Mm ... I have still struggled with. But the context of being in control per se in my sessions was just so huge to my self-esteem.

And like while I was in rehab, I realized that... Someone like told me. At first I was like, "I don't know," but then I was like, "Oh, no, they're totally right." Mm. Um, they're like, "You have to learn how to love yourself."

[00:45:12] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:45:13] Miss Adah: And I was like, "Well, I mean, like, I don't know. I think I like myself okay," you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I realized, like growing up I was, like growing up in the '90s obviously there was a lot of not great messages that were being- Yeah ... directed our way.

[00:45:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:28] Miss Adah: Um, and so there was a lot of emphasis placed on like body neutrality or positivity and like, you know, uh, liking how you look and feeling comfortable in that.

Mm-hmm. And so for a long time I think I subconsciously equated feeling confident in my looks to having self-esteem- Mm ... which it turns out are not the same thing at all.

[00:45:54] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:45:55] Miss Adah: Um, yeah, so I really had to... I don't know if it was peeling apart as, or like just- letting it go, comforting it, like asking it to- Mm ... to take a backseat and, like, just see. Mm-hmm. Because I had a lot of positive reinforcement. I had a lot of observational evidence in front of me. You know, if my brain wants to be scientific about it-

[00:46:20] Dr. Nicole: Sure

[00:46:20] Miss Adah: it's like, okay, like, this is going well. I feel powerful in these situations. I am being respected in these situations. I'm being valued in these situations. And that really helped me to find those things for myself.

[00:46:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:35] Miss Adah: Whereas I think I was constantly seeking them externally beforehand.

[00:46:38] Dr. Nicole: Sure. Sure, for sure.

[00:46:40] Miss Adah: And so of course, none of, like, I wish I had fully, I could say I fully killed off any of those things.

[00:46:45] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:46:45] Miss Adah: Um, but definitely there was a lot of, I think maybe just, like, the part of me that would put things off even. Mm. Mm. You know? Mm-hmm. Deciding, like I said, I, there was one part where I was like, "Okay, I'm not gonna go on auditions anymore.

I am just gonna do this." Like, I have two mentors, two amazing women who have been doing this for over 20 years. Like, if they- Yeah ... can make it work for that long, why can't I?

[00:47:07] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:47:08] Miss Adah: And so that was really huge, and so I had to kinda kill off that part, was like, "No, people don't do that. That's not what I'm supposed to do."

Mm. "That's not a valid career path."

[00:47:18] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:47:19] Miss Adah: Um, and I really had to get rid of those and give myself permission and be like, "No," like, "this is a real thing."

[00:47:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:25] Miss Adah: You know? Mm-hmm. Like, aside from legitimizing it to whoever else, do I feel confident and strong in that I can do this to sustain myself?

[00:47:33] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Absolutely. Which again, thinking about the relationship anarchy frame, if we're talking about deconstructing the internalized structures of relationships, yeah, there's a, a job narrative too of how you're supposed to relate in the world with other people. Mm-hmm. Right? It's supposed to be X, Y, or a Z. It's gotta be on LinkedIn or whatever.

[00:47:57] Miss Adah: You know what

[00:47:57] Dr. Nicole: I mean? Yep. Uh-

[00:47:59] Miss Adah: So they

[00:47:59] Dr. Nicole: tell us. So they tell us. Mm. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yep. Uh-huh, uh-huh. Exactly. And so playing within those, those structures, um, it can be really limiting. Yeah, even for myself, like working on a global scale, like I, I cannot bill insurance to my client in New Zealand-

[00:48:17] Miss Adah: Mm ...

[00:48:20] Dr. Nicole: for therapy.

[00:48:21] Miss Adah: Yeah, that's pretty wild- So you just- ... that you can have a client in New Zealand is really cool, but also, like, how do you- Yeah ... of course, there's things you have to figure out for that.

[00:48:28] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, letting go of trying to uphold a license when you're trying- ... to have clients on a global, that just stops making sense, right?

Wow. Yeah. There's like these things that are super scary where the field's like, "Go like this, go like this," and it's like, I have mentors who have let it go. Both of my mentors have let you know, or not. You know, it's just a different world. But- Right ... whether it's a relationship to a person, to a job, or a space, like when you're trying to envision that other world, you need mentors.

You need somebody else who has, like walked that path, um, to explore with you 'cause otherwise it's just a blank canvas of what the hell am I doing with this as an artist? Like, where am I

[00:49:04] Miss Adah: going? Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:49:06] Dr. Nicole: Terrifying. Terrifying. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:49:09] Miss Adah: I love that you used the word artist there. Ooh. That feels...

Because that's part of it too. Like, my mom loves to joke, like, "Well, at least you're using your degree." Because, 'cause like, like I guess not as many people can say that these days, but yeah. Yeah, that's true. I have a performing arts degree, and what I do- There you are ... all the time is performing scenes and directing and, like producing and figuring all this stuff out, and I don't have to go around begging people to let me do it.

[00:49:35] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:49:35] Miss Adah: Because that's what auditioning is, you know? And so I'm grateful that while I was in school, I had a couple of professors, but one in particular who was like, "Auditioning is the job. If you're not down for that, then like, maybe do something else." Ugh, rough. And of course, at the time, like, there's a little bit of spite, like, "Oh, I don't know, like I think I could blah, blah, blah."

But then I got out of school, and I'm like, "Yeah, be okay with the backup plan."

[00:49:59] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:49:59] Miss Adah: You know? Like, who am I trying

[00:50:00] Dr. Nicole: to impress here? Like... And is it even the backup plan? You built your own stage, quite literally. Oh, I love that. Like,

[00:50:06] Miss Adah: you have your own dungeon. You're so right. Like, you have

[00:50:08] Dr. Nicole: your own stage.

[00:50:10] Miss Adah: Absolutely. It's been so satisfying that way. Mm. It's been pretty cool.

[00:50:15] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:16] Miss Adah: Oh. Mm. But yes, the mentors, and especially like, I take a lot of- Pride. Like I don't, I don't know, it doesn't mean, I don't mean to like turn my nose up at anyone, but I am, it feels very special to have had mentors-

[00:50:30] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah ...

[00:50:30] Miss Adah: and especially in the BDSM space- I'm sure

because that was tradition for- Yes ... ages. You didn't have the internet. You weren't able to go out and just educate yourself by watching videos or reading articles or whatever else. And so like everyone had a mentor. There would be like a, a, a pedigree line kind of thing. And so I really-- That's one place where I'm very old school, and I believe that, like, you sh- there's, there's a lot of people coming up these days, and they'll have really good PR, and they'll get thousands and thousands of followers, and everyone will take them as established in the field.

I'm like, "They just made that account six months ago."

[00:51:07] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:51:07] Miss Adah: Like, they just started doing this. Mm. They're not an authority on anything.

[00:51:11] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:51:12] Miss Adah: Which is so scary. It's not safe. Yeah. Yeah. And we've seen bad things in the community happen because of it.

[00:51:18] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm,

[00:51:18] Miss Adah: mm-hmm. So, like, I, I love the New York scene. Mm. They get so, like, protective of their own, in a way.

Mm-hmm. And if someone is, like, trying to fuck it up, you know? 'Cause, like, I've done femdom events in the UK and Greece and other places where- Yeah ... it's very different. BDSM, the kink scene in America feels very different than the kink scene in other places of the world to me.

[00:51:40] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, what do you notice?

[00:51:43] Miss Adah: Hmm.

Well, just inherently with the language sometimes you get some interesting things because of our history with slavery and race and how we have- Yeah ... treated marginalized people. Which, of course, goes into a lot of the subversiveness of all of this, the taboo nature that fee, makes it feel like you're turning something on its head- Mm-hmm

which can be really fun. But then, like, a few years ago it was really interesting to see the discussion around the use of the terms master and slave.

[00:52:16] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:52:17] Miss Adah: Because, you know, there's a lot of people where if you're just looking at it from the outside, it's like, oh, like, we try... Like, people are s- not saying master bedroom anymore.

All these things- Mm ... that we're trying to, like, move away from that language because of America's history, um, of oppression. But that also was a big thing in the gay leather community.

[00:52:37] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:52:37] Miss Adah: Like, that's a huge cultural dynamic that they have. And, you know, I don't think anyone's asking them, or, like, I don't think anyone should ask them to give that up necessarily.

It- it's all just very disrest- interesting. Where as opposed to, like, in Europe, like, even though they had slaves and all that sort of stuff, very imperialist cultures like we have here, I don't think there's the same kind of reckoning with it- Mm ... in a way. Mm. In the UK it just... It, it kind of felt very, like, old school in a way- Mm, mm

of just very, like, classic kind of, you know, dungeon looks or, like, pony play- Mm ... and, like, high protocol, a lot of high protocol stuff and-

[00:53:18] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:53:19] Miss Adah: um, different things where it just... I don't know. And maybe I just wasn't in the right spaces there, of course. I'm sure that- Yeah ... there are younger people coming up and, like, shifting the scene too.

But it was just my experience was more, like, when I interact with the old guard here- Mm ... and, like, past generations who were around, like, in the '80s and stuff maybe. I think s- things have changed a lot since then.

[00:53:45] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. In terms of the structuredness when you're describing that of the scenes and, and in, in that way it's less structured and maybe more fluid in that?

In,

[00:53:53] Miss Adah: in a way, right, right. Before, like People would connect to do these things by going to clubs. There was, like, Hellfire- Right ... Club in New York was very well known, and different things like this where people would go, and all sorts of crazy stuff would happen, you know. But that is still a community.

[00:54:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:11] Miss Adah: And, like, there were, like, regulars there, and people would kind of know who each other are and that sort of thing. Mm. And it gives you a place to convene and where people can kind of keep an eye on each other. Right. Whether or not they actually do anything about that is another story and another issue-

[00:54:24] Dr. Nicole: Sure

[00:54:24] Miss Adah: um, that people are hopefully getting better about dealing with, it seems, but of course things still get messy. Um, but, you know, there wasn't as much, like, "Oh, I can just go on the internet while sitting on my bedroom- Yeah ... and say that I know how to do this and that and the other thing."

[00:54:39] Dr. Nicole: Right, right, right, right, right, right, right.

[00:54:41] Miss Adah: And so even just, yeah, just being in person and engaging in these things, I think is so-

[00:54:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:54:47] Miss Adah: different.

[00:54:48] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:54:48] Miss Adah: You know? And I think when you're around ... 'Cause when I first started, it was very much the era of findom, you know- Sure ... online posting only, and that kind of thing. And I thought about it, and I sort of tried to do that, and within a couple years I realized, like, in person is where it's at for me.

It's just a different type of connection-

[00:55:09] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:55:09] Miss Adah: to me.

[00:55:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:10] Miss Adah: I apprec- and for me, uh, one of the biggest parts was just the community of it, and getting to go to the dungeon and sit, like, in the green room, you know, basically- Mm ... with the other women who were working that day or check in- Yeah ... with whoever.

You know, like, of course we all try and build our communities on the internet, and I'm not poo-pooing that. That is so- Sure ... important, and it's great. But with this sort of stuff, if you're playing in person with people's physical and mental and emotional wellbeing, I just feel like training and knowledge around that sort of stuff is really important.

[00:55:46] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah.

[00:55:47] Miss Adah: And I hope that, like, the free access to it doesn't ... Like, based on what I see at the dungeon, we have a lot of people coming in who want to know how to do things the right way. They're nervous. They don't wanna just dive in and, like- Mm ... they're scared to do something wrong. Mm.

[00:56:00] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:01] Miss Adah: Which is kind of great.

It's a great place- Yeah ... to be coming from. We're glad you have really good intentions, you know? Yeah. Um, and so I have realized, like, part of it is just giving people permission to do that, which now that- Mm ... I think about it is really good to see, you know- Mm ... because it is so scary to me that someone could be like, "Well, I read this article on- Oh, yeah

kinkacademy.com, so now I can go and go ahead and slap whoever I want in the face."

[00:56:25] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:56:25] Miss Adah: It's like, mm, you know? Ah. Like, maybe we could practice that in a different way first or whatever else.

[00:56:34] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:56:34] Miss Adah: Um-

[00:56:35] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:56:36] Miss Adah: Yeah.

[00:56:37] Dr. Nicole: Right. And

[00:56:38] Miss Adah: so I'm a big fan of gossip, too.

[00:56:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:56:40] Miss Adah: I think, I think- Yes, say

[00:56:41] Dr. Nicole: more ...

[00:56:42] Miss Adah: I think that spilling the tea is a way of protecting ourselves- And I think that that's why gossip has been, like, diminished and hated on by the patriarchy and everything- Mm

because historically it's been, like, a woman's tool, quote, unquote. Mm. Um, but it's essential. That's- Yeah, yeah,

[00:57:03] Dr. Nicole: yeah ...

[00:57:04] Miss Adah: you know, we didn't always have Twitter, which is kinda like, you know, or BlueSky or whatever, like the modern-day version of that. And while you can get that online to some extent, and that's good for, like, spreading the word about things, there's also something to just sharing that with your people and feeling that, and bonding that way to some extent, you know?

Mm-hmm. And, like, that's that thing, how do you build camaraderie with people even if, like, you're not necessarily friends, but, like, we're on the same team, you know, we're both doms. Like, I don't want, uh, you to get hurt just because I don't wanna go to lunch with you.

[00:57:41] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:57:42] Miss Adah: You know?

[00:57:43] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:57:44] Miss Adah: Like, that doesn't mean I'm not gonna help you out- Mm-hmm

in this way. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:57:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. More community-building in that, yeah. I remember my episode with Dean Spade, I, uh, which is gonna come out in a bit, but will be out by the time this is released. This was, like, one of the deepest questions I asked is, like, you know, how do we take care of community versus going into, like, unhealthy or problematic gossip?

Mm. Like, where is that line? Where is that line? Mm-hmm. And so I think even defining the terms, I think sometimes, 'cause this has been a community I've, like, echoed through, or this is a conversation I've echoed through multiple times in my community, like, what do you think about gossip? What do this, that?

And something that keeps coming back when I have this conversation with people is the question of is gossip falsehood or truths? Mm. And so if we first start from the idea that, like, hey, like, telling wro- like, inaccurate, false stories about people, that's not a good idea. Right. Right? Let's be clear. Right, yes.

And I think a lot of people hear the word gossip and they think that. That's what they're thinking is, like, oh, gossip is falsehoods- Oh, interesting ...

[00:58:50] Miss Adah: inaccurate

[00:58:50] Dr. Nicole: stories- Yeah ... versus gossip being, like, experiences that you've had in community that you're sharing with other people, and knowledge that you have within community.

Now, that is very different, so I, I almost wanna start the preface there for whatever listener might be tuning in and thinking gossip is- ... like, inaccurate storytelling, which is, like, not what we're promoting.

[00:59:08] Miss Adah: Yeah, that wasn't part of my definition of it, but you're right. That's, that's a really interesting pr- like, it, it is important to have that in the definition of, like, what are we really talking about here?

[00:59:18] Dr. Nicole: Right. Yeah. And especially when you get into more, you know, smaller communities, I'm sure, like, um, queer communities, polyamorous communities, sex worker communities, the smaller they get and the more they have interwoven connections, you know, where do we go when we need support and processing? Who do we need?

Yeah. Who am I supposed to go? If I tell this person here, we've built such a kitchen table- ... open community dynamic that, that everybody knows. So if I go process over there, it's not like I get this sort of like secret third space I can go. Like, could I pay a therapist? Yes. But what does it mean if we start to say that all of our processing needs to be done in a third paid- Mm

secret, you know, sort of confidential space? I- not to say that that's not a good idea. It is a good idea to have that. Right. And also, that shouldn't be the only place that you process. And the further- Yes ... I get into community building, the more it just becomes this really complex gray space ethical dance of how much do you disclose and how much do you not?

And- Mm ... you know, being able to share your lived experience of someone is important. That is your lived experience of that person. Right. And you would hope that I want other people to share the lived experience of what I'm like in community- ... because that's good. And if I need to be called in, then call me the fuck in.

Yeah. I want other people to know that and come together, right? And if there are things that I've done that I need to take accountability for, yes, like, and I'm willing to stand by whatever that, whatever that is. And so I'm not afraid for people to know the accurate, honest assessment of truth, and then we could get into the next level of the bias- Mm

that is inherent to every person's perspective, though. Right. So when you say like, "Oh, I'm telling the real experience of," I'm putting in air quotes, you know, like, "The real experience of what happened to me," it's like, how much of your own bias and lens is influencing what you are sharing of the, quote-unquote, truth of that person you played with or interaction with- Oh, yeah

or any of that? And then you just take a deep breath. You know? But

[01:01:21] Miss Adah: is it right? Like, there's my truth- Ugh ... there's your truth, and then there's what actually happened.

[01:01:25] Dr. Nicole: Right. Right. Right. And so I think, you know, part of what I feel like I reached with that conversation with m- many community members and, and Dean Spade, and I'll be curious what you think, is, like, coming forth with the best of intentions.

You know, being curious about... You know, at the beginning we talked about how we get activated in couples therapy and other things. Like, those moments where you're like, "This person needs to get kicked out. I'm done with this. Fuck this person. I'm gonna reveal all these secrets," whatever. When that comes up- Mm-hmm

okay. Let's take a deep breath. Mm-hmm. Let's go for a walk, do something with the body, take some space, time, and do not go nuclear. That's what I say sometimes. Yeah, right. I'm, like, really angry, like, "I know all these secrets. I could go nuclear and drop it right now. Right now." And it's like, okay, okay, take a s- no, take a step back.

Where's the button? Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. It's in the office. Oh,

[01:02:20] Miss Adah: my God. Like, nope, it's under glass for a reason. Oh, my

[01:02:22] Dr. Nicole: God. Yeah, yeah. Could you imagine I let out a podcast episode, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Just no. That's the nuclear. I won't do that. Uh, you know, but, like, those are the moments to pause.

Yeah. Those are the moments to pause-

[01:02:34] Miss Adah: Yes ...

[01:02:34] Dr. Nicole: and not act. And then beyond that, like, how can I be curious of, like, am I giving the most generous interpretation of this person in our community? Mm-hmm. Um, what are my biases? What are my intentions? Am I trying to campaign the whole community against this person 'cause I've been hurt?

Like, there's- Mm. I think those are just deep questions without a black and white answer that we all should be thinking about when we have concern for actions that are happening in our communities.

[01:02:59] Miss Adah: 100%. I, I, I cosign that, for sure.

[01:03:04] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:03:05] Miss Adah: For sure. What you're saying about having a sense of responsibility about it is important, too, because you're right.

If- And, like, maybe even especially in smaller communities. But you're right, like, if... We, we want to be able to trust, you know, what we're hearing, and to know that, okay, they're telling me this because it is good information to have and knowledge. And if there are falsehoods there, then that becomes so dangerous, not just for that specific situation, but then overall of just, like, can we trust, you know, what's being put out there in this community and yada, yada.

And like you said, the... Oh, this is what it was. Like you said about how you're willing to take accountability and all these other things, you know, I feel like people's ego-

[01:03:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[01:03:55] Miss Adah: just get in the way- Mm ... so much with this sort of thing. Whether it's on a community scale or a micro scale- Yeah ... with partners or whatever else, there's just...

You know, there's, there's all kinds that make this world turn- ... apparently. Um, and I just really wish everyone would get into therapy. You know, I wish people could be able to hear, like, "Didn't love what you did over there," without hearing- Yeah ... "You're a bad person." Right. 'Cause that's not the same. But people will get so up in arms and guarded and defensive that you can't get anywhere.

[01:04:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:27] Miss Adah: And it's like, "I want to be on the same team with you here. Like, I'm trying to to make this work," you know?

[01:04:33] Dr. Nicole: Totally, and sometimes some community spaces don't even give you that opportunity. You know, cancel culture can be really big- Mm ... in left spaces, you know? Yeah. Like, uh, leftist, liberal spaces in terms of just completely canceling people- Mm

without any opportunity to even have a moment where you could have your ego challenged and step in. So I can understand how if someone's had that experience happen a few times, then you're gonna be really activated next time you get invited into a call-in. You're gonna be like, "Ah, ah." Yeah, right. "I need to defend myself.

I got... Last time I got exiled," you know? And so... A- and which is also an echo of, like, yeah, the, the corporal systems that we have, the incarceral state that we have. Like, those are things that, you know, I'd be curious to have a sociologist, like a cross-cultural perspective on what cancel culture looks like and accountability across different- Mm

countries, you know? 'Cause I'm sure it doesn't look like what we do in America- ... 'cause the shit we do here, like-

[01:05:28] Miss Adah: Ugh. Right. That- Just throw- ... would probably be pretty fascinating ...

[01:05:31] Dr. Nicole: throw them away, lock them up.

[01:05:33] Miss Adah: They're,

[01:05:33] Dr. Nicole: you... Mm. Keep them, keep them over there, out of the... Out, out.

[01:05:36] Miss Adah: Yep. So- Out of sight, out of mind.

Away from the, quote-unquote, "good people."

[01:05:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. 100%.

[01:05:40] Miss Adah: Mm-hmm. That's... Which is always... Oh, my gosh, if we wanna get into that side of things, you know, as a sex worker, and even just as a kinky person and as a queer person, it's like- What, you know, if we don't agree with folks on how to utilize those resources or who should be called in certain situations, and it's, it's a topic I think about a lot-

[01:06:07] Dr. Nicole: Mm

[01:06:07] Miss Adah: honestly. Yeah. Especially as, like, a space owner.

[01:06:10] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:06:10] Miss Adah: Is like, what if someone called the cops? You know?

[01:06:14] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:06:15] Miss Adah: And like, that really depends where you are. Mm. It depends who's on duty that day. It depends on the county's, you know, take on whatever's going on or-

[01:06:24] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[01:06:25] Miss Adah: it could have so many different factors.

[01:06:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:06:30] Miss Adah: And you wonder, like, if, like, if someone put out, like, on, you know, FetLife or something on a private forum. They said- Yeah ... this person committed a consent violation.

[01:06:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:06:42] Miss Adah: And the person didn't commit a consent violation, the person who's being accused, and they want to, like... Like, what are they gonna do about it?

Like, you can do your best within your community. You can, like, you know, make reparations or whatever else, have mediation, whatever you have to do. Some people will take the option of suing for defamation.

[01:07:05] Dr. Nicole: Fuck yeah. Yeah, damn.

[01:07:06] Miss Adah: You know? And it's like, and then you're putting so much out there. You're putting the whole community on blast.

You're revealing people's real names. You're doing all of this other stuff, and it's like how am I supposed to trust you in community? You know, how are we supposed to have that camaraderie where, like, nothing we do is safe necessarily. Right. We are under the threat. Uh, we are being threatened because, you know, whoever doesn't like what it is we do or because of what the law says or whatever else.

[01:07:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:37] Miss Adah: But if we're gonna do those things together, I need to trust you.

[01:07:40] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:07:40] Miss Adah: You know, whether that's, like, a scene partner you're doing something with, stream with, or for me, like, with a client. Sure. Like, you know, there's a lot of different factors there where it's just, we just need decrim. That would just be really, really nice if we could just have- Mm

full decriminalization of sex work, please. I would love that.

[01:07:56] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:07:56] Miss Adah: Um, yeah, sorry, I don't know if I have an endpoint with this, but it's- No ... there's just a lot of layers. And so, oh, so going back to the community building and what level of responsibility is there for education and putting things out there for, like, the people in your community.

[01:08:17] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:18] Miss Adah: And I guess you kinda have to let people self-select to some extent. Yeah. You know? If they don't like what you're putting down, if, you know, you make your values known. That's why I think for me in the past if I was gonna open a business, it'd be like, "Okay, I want this to appeal to as many people as possible."

You know, we're not gonna get too specific. We're not gonna choose a niche that we, like, teach at this dungeon, 'cause I want everyone to come, and that'll make us the most money. And, like, the-- I don't feel that way anymore. You know? I'm like, no, like, people are gonna know that we're, like, a queer and trans friendly space.

People are gonna know that, like, it's very obvious that I support Palestine and, like, whatever else is going on in the world. We're not down with ICE, all that sort of stuff, you know?

[01:09:01] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:09:02] Miss Adah: And if you have a problem with that, okay, then don't come, you know? Yeah. As much as I believe, like, on some level we might have the same values, and if you wanted to take the time we could get there- But, you know, that's, that's a lot of work, and I don't think a lot of people wanna do the work or see the value in it.

Or even like, "Why should I do the work?"

[01:09:25] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that's usually where when I'm working with my clients, I talk about the metaphor of a magnet, right? Which is that, yeah, you can try and appeal to the everyone in the world, which means you're gonna negate all of who you are and all of that. Right?

That's not very fun. But the more you become authentic and say, "This is who I am," you become a really strong magnet, which means you're gonna repel some people really- Mm ... really hard. Really hard, like pushed directly away. And then the people that see those values will come straight to you because that's actually what they're looking for, is, "I want a space that has these things."

And there's, you know, some of the, like even the dungeons, the sex party scenes across the world that you see all these, like, slim, white, perfect boob job bodies. Always. I'm just like

[01:10:14] Miss Adah: Yeah. Oh my gosh Like,

[01:10:16] Dr. Nicole: I don't wanna play there. Like, that's just like, you know? Like-

[01:10:19] Miss Adah: You're describing me, like, scrolling my Instagram feed.

Well, 'cause it's even... That's, like, an interesting thing for me too, because there are some, like, dominatrices who are beautiful artists. They create great, great content, amazing photo shoots, really high production value stuff, and so they're, like, kinda mainstream. And yet they only shoot with, like, thin, classically attractive, like, white or sometimes Asian people, you know?

And it's like, I would love to see you tying up a fat person. Like, what is going on here, you know? And so it's like I love that they're putting it out there. It's like, oh, is this, like, increasing acceptability and, you know, and fighting stigma and all of that? But at the same time, of course it's totally playing into these cultural narratives that already exist.

Yeah.

[01:11:09] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. That's the d- uh, desirability politics, right? Mm-hmm. This conversation, and I feel like this is something I come to again and again on the podcast, which is, you know, in the sexuality space there's such a push towards honoring your authentic desires, your cravings, what you want- Mm-hmm

and that being an innate thing within yourself. And so I wanna respect the, the sacredness of those cravings that we have, the desires, the things that turn us on, and also draw a fucking line here to be like- ... you gotta get curious on what you're attracted to and why. And if you think those are just innate desires, you gotta wake the fuck up.

Mm-hmm. We have cross-cultural research that directly speaks to how even body size is dependent on where you are in the world and what is going on in that c- country and your lived exper- 100%. So for as, like, "This is just what I am attracted to and how I like to play," I'm like, "Okay." "Get some curiosity in here," you know?

Yeah. Like, get some cur- and I... Honoring, honoring taste. So, like, most of these things, a continuing theme of the podcast is gray space, nuance. Mm-hmm. This is not a 30-second Instagram Reel because you cannot cover that shit in that time. Like, you know? Like, it's like I wanna honor what you're-

[01:12:25] Miss Adah: But that's why we love you.

[01:12:26] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, thank you. And thank

[01:12:27] Miss Adah: you

[01:12:28] Dr. Nicole: for co-collaborating with me, you know? It's just like you just can't, you can't do it in that timeframe. So, like-

[01:12:36] Miss Adah: No, and that's people's attention span these days. It's all-

[01:12:39] Dr. Nicole: Right. Yeah,

[01:12:40] Miss Adah: yeah ... it has to be right there

[01:12:41] Dr. Nicole: and- Yeah, many people haven't even made it to this part of the episode, or have

[01:12:46] Miss Adah: they?

Mm-mm. Ugh, it's their

[01:12:46] Dr. Nicole: loss. We love you who's here. Hey, you

[01:12:50] Miss Adah: know? Yes, thanks for sticking around.

[01:12:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. This was super

[01:12:54] Miss Adah: fun.

[01:12:54] Dr. Nicole: Good, good. Well, it's clear- Ooh ... we could talk for hours, hours- Mm-hmm ... hours, hours, so sounds like maybe it's a good time to take a deep breath together. Sure.

And check in and see if there's anything else you wanna share with the listeners. Otherwise, I have a closing question for you today.

[01:13:18] Miss Adah: Hmm. Yeah, I just hope that they can listen and take what they need and leave the rest here.

[01:13:27] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:13:29] Miss Adah: Yeah. Yeah Thanks for being

[01:13:31] Dr. Nicole: here. Yeah, absolutely. And thank you. I love conversations like this because I think some people are like, "Oh, sex workers," you know, "Sex doctor, all they're gonna do is talk about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."

And here we are, like, yeah, the systems, the carceral states, and how that impacts our client work. Right. Like, like there are people here actually thinking about these things very deeply, and it's important, and I'm, I'm grateful that you're doing that.

[01:13:56] Miss Adah: Truly. Well, thank you. And oh, that does give me, like, one last thing, I guess.

You know, I really appreciate you giving me and sex workers this platform- Mm-hmm ... because just, like, sex workers are canaries in the coal mine- Oh, yeah ... with a lot of stuff that's going on culturally and politically and all of that. You wanna know if there's a recession coming? Go ask the strippers. You know?

Yeah. Like, whatever else. And so, and, like, a lot with that's going on with, like, the age verification and privacy laws- Yeah ... online these days. Oof. Like, there's all sorts of bills that are being passed and things like that that you think might not affect you, but I promise that they will. And so just it's worth paying attention to, even if you just follow, like, find one organization.

I really like EPA United.

[01:14:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:14:40] Miss Adah: Does a great job. Erotic Professionals Alliance, um, does a great job of putting out, you know, just short little reels. Again, you can, you can get those 30-second clips. We will cater to that in some spaces- Yeah, yeah ... um, where they just talk about certain things. And if you can take the two second, the two minutes out of your day, you know, to, like, send that email template or whatever, like, it is in your own best interest.

[01:15:02] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I appreciate the plug to different organizations- Mm-hmm ... of that. Yeah.

[01:15:10] Miss Adah: Thank you.

[01:15:11] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Such a joy to have you. Well, then. The last question that I ask everyone on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:15:26] Miss Adah: Hmm. I'm so glad I had time to prepare for this, just saying.

I thought about it so much. Um, and the best answer that came to mind for me was, uh, paying for human touch. Hmm.

[01:15:41] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:15:42] Miss Adah: It's really, so many people are touch starved these days, and when we're talking about how people get riled up and all stuck in their heads and mind-body connection and all of these other things, like, some people just need a hug, you know?

Yeah. And it's really okay to go pay a professional or to pay for access to a space where that's a possibility, like whether that is through sex work, whether that is getting a massage- Yeah ... whether that is going to a cuddle party.

[01:16:12] Dr. Nicole: Exactly.

[01:16:14] Miss Adah: Any of these things, I think, would be so beneficial to so many people because- I have now multiple clients who came to me as a dominatrix, and we would, uh, spend, like, our aftercare time just sitting on the couch, you know, chatting, maybe- Yeah

snuggling a little bit. And now they just pay me to come do that. They come and cuddle for an hour, because they realize, like, that's what they really love and what they really need out of that interaction. And I think that that's just so valuable, and I don't want any kind of stigma to prevent people from giving that to themselves.

In other countries, in somewhere in Scandinavia, I don't remember if it was Norway or Finland, but they have, like, a disability program- Mm ... for touch professionals, like c- professional- Mm ... cuddlers to come to people's homes and spend time with them in that way. Yeah. Because they, they think of it as that vital to- Absolutely

a person's wellbeing.

[01:17:17] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah.

[01:17:18] Miss Adah: Which I totally agree with. Yeah.

[01:17:21] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

[01:17:24] Miss Adah: So I do have a friend who's, like, trying to make that become a thing here. Of course, that will be a very long process. Um, but- Mm ... I'll be a big proponent if and when it begins to happen. I'll let you guys know.

[01:17:36] Dr. Nicole: Um- Yeah, let me know if I can help in any way.

[01:17:38] Miss Adah: Thank you. That means a lot, and I appreciate that. Oh, yeah, just take care of yourselves, people. Just do what you wanna do. It's really okay. I promise you're not that weird.

[01:17:50] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, and touch is so, so needed. Even the research from, um, infants when they're touch deprived- Mm.

[01:17:57] Miss Adah: Oh, gosh.

[01:17:58] Dr. Nicole: Horrific. That'll change-

[01:17:59] Miss Adah: We

[01:17:59] Dr. Nicole: don't...

Yeah.

[01:18:00] Miss Adah: Yeah. Yeah. No, that'll change your whole life. That'll fuck with your whole brain chemistry. Oxytocin is a hell of a drug, I'm telling you. That's why I still say my first addiction was love. It was my first- Oh, sure ... like, significant other, my puppy love, and I'll still get that with new relationship energy.

I have to- Oh, yeah ... watch myself- Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah ... 'cause I will fall into those addict tendencies.

[01:18:19] Dr. Nicole: Isn't it humbling?

[01:18:19] Miss Adah: Isn't it humbling? Oh, gosh. It's so much.

[01:18:21] Dr. Nicole: NRE is a bitch. Love that, but, like, who am I? Oh. Who is she? So less. I don't even know. You know, like-

[01:18:28] Miss Adah: Really. Oh.

[01:18:29] Dr. Nicole: Oh. Well, it was such a joy to have you on the podcast today.

Mm. Thank you for joining me. I can't thank

[01:18:36] Miss Adah: you enough. It's been such a pleasure.

[01:18:38] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:18:40] Miss Adah: Mm.

[01:18:40] Dr. Nicole: I'm sure everyone would love to know, how can they find you? How can they follow you? How can they support you?

[01:18:47] Miss Adah: To make things simple, I would say go to adahvon.com/links. You can see how to spell my name in the title, I assume, but it's A-D-A-H-V-O-N-N.com/links.

There you'll have, like, whatever social media I'm on. You can send me an email, uh, find my website, and information about the dungeon, which I call Less Dead Studio. Mm-hmm. I feel like this is a cool place. If people don't know, less dead is a term that law enforcement uses along with, like, NHI, no human involved, to excuse, like, cases that they don't pay attention to, like minorities and sex workers and all of this.

Oh. They'll say, "Oh, it was the less dead. They're not worth investigating." They're less dead than, like, you know, good civilians or whatever. Oh, shit. Um, and so kind of been, like, a reclamation move and, like, you know, I want it to be a safe space for all sorts of different folks who have been, you know, in the past the less dead included, and still includes queer folks, trans folks, sex workers, kinky people, you know- Yeah

all of that sort of stuff. Um, so if you fall into one of those categories, then come check us out. We are in Upstate New York in Poughkeepsie. It's a quick little train, a very pretty train ride from New York City. Um, and we are hoping to launch online classes this year, so please do join the newsletter and stay tuned.

[01:20:11] Dr. Nicole: Mm, so exciting. Mm-hmm. And I'll have all of that linked in the show notes below, dear listener, so you can go and connect and find all of those links right away. So thank you again for joining me today.

[01:20:22] Miss Adah: Yay. Thank you, Dr. Nicole. Such a joy.

[01:20:27] Dr. Nicole: Dear listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Modern Anarchy.

Thank you for sharing this episode with your friends, with your lovers, with your community. Truly, it means so much to me, and I am so grateful that you are here. If you are wanting to release jealousy in your non-monogamous dynamics and step into compersion and pleasure-filled connection you can read my book, The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide, for free on my website.

There you will also find so many other free resources, including worksheets on how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non-monogamous dynamics and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure-filled sex and relationships.

So head on over to modernanarchypodcast.com to find all of those free resources and I look forward to seeing you next week.