289. The Community Care of Orgies - Allison Moon
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:05:19
Allison Moon
I'm not like, I don't want you to go down on me, but like, I do want to, like, slap you in the face a bunch. Like, like.
00:00:05:21 - 00:00:22:05
Dr. Nicole
It was very common to see how genderfluid people were, how fluid people were in their sexualities. Many of them deconstructed religion. Right. Like, there's almost like, once you realize the tooth fairy isn't real. Maybe the claws on the Easter Bunny and the the whole thing should actually be questioned.
00:00:22:08 - 00:00:25:03
Allison Moon
Because, again, I've seen your face. I've seen your butthole.
00:00:25:05 - 00:00:25:10
Dr. Nicole
Like.
00:00:25:11 - 00:00:44:13
Allison Moon
Let's talk about our feelings. Yeah, exactly. Thanks. I'm queer, I'm non-monogamous, and I'm a slut. And none of those are the problem, right?
00:00:44:15 - 00:00:54:15
Dr. Nicole
Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring the sex, relationships and pleasure. Liberation.
00:00:54:17 - 00:01:16:18
Dr. Nicole
I'm doctor Nicole. I'm a queer namen psychotherapist and a provider of psychedelic assisted psychotherapy. I teach students from around the world how to craft pleasurable sex lives and non-monogamous relationships.
00:01:16:20 - 00:01:43:09
Dr. Nicole
Hello, dear listener. Welcome to my office. Welcome to video. Today's guest is a powerful educator who actually came as a recommendation from one of my students and my pleasure Liberation programs. I was get the best recommendations from my students, and I'm so grateful because Alison Moon gets it. She understands the transformative, heart opening power of having sex with your friends.
00:01:43:10 - 00:02:11:10
Dr. Nicole
And in my opinion, that is the mutual aid we could all benefit from in today's world. Dear listener, if you want to go way deeper into the topics we explore in today's episode, I have a full library of free resources waiting for you at Modern Anarchy Podcast. Com linked in the show notes below. And with that, dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love.
00:02:11:12 - 00:02:23:05
Dr. Nicole
And let's turn into today's episode. So the first question that I love to ask every guest on the show is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?
00:02:23:07 - 00:02:46:20
Allison Moon
My name is Alison Moon. I use she her pronouns, and I am a sex educator and a theater and filmmaker, and I think I'm best known for, in at least, the sex positive community as the author of Girl Sex 101 and Getting It a guide to hot, healthy hookups and shame Free Sex. So I specialize in female sexuality, queer sexuality, and group in community dynamics.
00:02:46:22 - 00:03:02:00
Dr. Nicole
Amazing. You were in the right show. You were in the right show. Yeah. My pleasure. Liberation sexuality group. One of my students had mentioned your work. And then that's how I found you. And it was so alive and so very grateful for my student. And that you've been.
00:03:02:02 - 00:03:02:14
Allison Moon
Me too.
00:03:02:17 - 00:03:10:11
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. Totally. Totally. So how did you get passionate about this work? Where does this journey begin for you?
00:03:10:12 - 00:03:33:12
Allison Moon
I mean, I think it begins for me as a child. I was raised by a mother who was a businesswoman and a father who was a nurse. And the two of them, I think, because of their kind of, like, inverted gender roles. Immediately, I was already very aware of how, you know, the choices that we make in terms of building family and building community and how gender really plays into that.
00:03:33:17 - 00:03:52:04
Allison Moon
And also from a very pragmatic perspective, my father being a nurse, it was really important to him that my sister and I knew the proper names for all of our body parts. So I was the kid in Catholic school teaching my my other, you know, kindergarten students the words vulva and scrotum and how that was just very natural for me.
00:03:52:05 - 00:04:13:07
Allison Moon
And as I grew up, I noticed how not natural it was for so many other young people. And so that to me meant like suddenly I had this kind of arcane knowledge that was like exciting to share with kids who were denied that information. And so I just tried to use all of the stuff I could get from, like having very frank, very loving, you know, age appropriate conversations with my parents.
00:04:13:07 - 00:04:29:08
Allison Moon
I was just like, I became like the the Oracle for all of my kids, like all my, my peers in, in my very conservative towns growing up. And so for me, that just kind of it's I feel like it's a really common story for a lot of sex educators. We just noticed that we had a curiosity that a lot of students are.
00:04:29:09 - 00:04:40:17
Allison Moon
A lot of, you know, kids either didn't have or were denied having. And so, because I had that privilege of that family upbringing and also the curiosity it just sent me on the trajectory of becoming a sex educator.
00:04:40:21 - 00:04:49:02
Dr. Nicole
Yeah, I'm sure you got, you know, metaphorically or physically, the ruler slapped on the hand a few times for that one.
00:04:49:04 - 00:05:06:07
Allison Moon
I mean, it was really interesting because, like, I mean, when I think about my Catholic upbringing, like, you know, I was taught by nuns, right? But I think there was also something weirdly progressive about nuns specifically. Like, again, a lot of them are lesbians or, you know, a lot of them, like they are women who live amongst women.
00:05:06:07 - 00:05:24:19
Allison Moon
And I think there's a really interesting thing that happens with women in the Catholic Church that I think is not necessarily the story we often hear about it. So, yes, in some ways I was scolded, but in other ways I was kind of like, they they kind of liked me. I was the only kid that chose to wear the pants in the school uniforms.
00:05:24:20 - 00:05:41:09
Allison Moon
Like pants were an option for girls, but I was the only girl in the entire K through eight school who chose to wear pants. And I think my I think my principal really liked that. I think they were like proto feminism in these small ways, growing up in and maybe unexpected places.
00:05:41:11 - 00:05:50:16
Dr. Nicole
Very cool, very cool. I love that for you. I have a very clear image of what that looks like with all the skirts and the high knee socks. Probably. Oh yeah. Pants in the polo I have.
00:05:50:17 - 00:05:56:12
Allison Moon
Absolutely. Yeah. If anybody couldn't read me as a queer girl, then I don't know what was wrong with them.
00:05:56:14 - 00:06:04:03
Dr. Nicole
Amazing. Amazing. So you knew for yourself. Like you're in that environment, you know? Okay, I am queer. Are you still on a path of figuring that out?
00:06:04:05 - 00:06:23:11
Allison Moon
The queerness would come later. I think the gender thing came first, right? Like, I think and I think, you know, sometimes that can be in a negative way to write the side, like, not like other girls quality. But I think for me, I just kind of, I unfortunately, I think I learned pretty young like sometimes that like femininity was a really weird choice, like a really impractical choice.
00:06:23:12 - 00:06:40:13
Allison Moon
Like, you know, I grew up in Ohio, so like, we and we had to go outside for recess every day, even in the dead of winter. And all of my friends would be, like, shivering in their little like, like, thigh high skirts and their knee high socks. And I'm like, why aren't you wearing corduroy pants like the boys?
00:06:40:18 - 00:06:56:07
Allison Moon
And that was kind of my first lesson that like, you know, some, like, feminine knee is often imposed as, like a punishment in a certain way. And I remember that being really upsetting. And then in the, in the nice weather, you know, wearing skirts was a liability because then you couldn't be on the, on the jungle.
00:06:56:11 - 00:06:57:01
Dr. Nicole
Gym.
00:06:57:03 - 00:07:11:23
Allison Moon
Like we, we got in trouble once for we were doing flips on the monkey bars and our showing. And then all of a sudden we got like, all of the girls got hauled into school because we weren't allowed to play in the jungle gym anymore. Shoot. And I'm like, can't we just wear shorts? And then we're like, okay, you could wear shorts.
00:07:11:23 - 00:07:25:05
Allison Moon
So we would wear shorts under our skirts when we wanted to play. But like those kind of like, like you force us to wear these uniforms and then you're like, penalizing us for being children wearing these uniforms. Yeah, that was definitely a lesson in gender. Really early.
00:07:25:07 - 00:07:46:14
Dr. Nicole
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Completely restricts what's even, like you said, possible for your day and then to be punished by it all just oh, you're navigating so many different forces at once right there. Yeah. Meanwhile, I'm in California wearing shorts or skirts, but with UGG boots.
00:07:46:20 - 00:07:49:20
Allison Moon
Oh, yeah, I remember that look.
00:07:49:20 - 00:07:52:23
Dr. Nicole
What the fuck?
00:07:53:01 - 00:07:56:18
Allison Moon
It was a very, very interesting time. The boots with the mini skirt. Yeah.
00:07:56:19 - 00:07:58:08
Dr. Nicole
In August. Like why?
00:07:58:12 - 00:08:00:21
Allison Moon
Why sweaty, sweaty feet.
00:08:00:22 - 00:08:09:11
Dr. Nicole
Yeah yeah yeah yeah. And then I moved to the Midwest in Chicago. I'm in Chicago now, and I'm like, God, I knew nothing. Yeah. And those UGG boots are for a different climate.
00:08:09:12 - 00:08:12:06
Allison Moon
And suddenly very practical. Yes, exactly.
00:08:12:07 - 00:08:22:01
Dr. Nicole
Yeah, yeah. And I got in trouble many a time for having to short of a skirt. Many, many detentions, many detentions later on that one.
00:08:22:03 - 00:08:22:13
Allison Moon
Yeah.
00:08:22:14 - 00:08:30:14
Dr. Nicole
Oh, yeah. Tokyo. So it goes. Okay, so you've got the gender pieces coming and then. Yeah. When does queerness kind of enter your scene in consciousness?
00:08:30:16 - 00:08:56:07
Allison Moon
I was dating a boy in high school, and the the hubbub in my school was. And this was, this was my first love. And the hubbub in my school was that one of the fundamentalists, evangelical girls was dating one of the very few Jewish boys in our school. And it became like a scandal right again. And this is not like this is it feels like I'm talking about like ancient history.
00:08:56:07 - 00:09:17:09
Allison Moon
This was the 90s, right? This was and it was a big deal that this evangelical girl was dating a Jewish boy. And my boyfriend was religious. His mother was very aggressively religious, and disapproved of me as just an entity. Not not even like the boy that her or the girl that her son wanted to sleep with. It was just really.
00:09:17:09 - 00:09:33:16
Allison Moon
So I remember we were having this conversation and he was talking about like, kind of like, well, you know, she should really not do that, blah, blah. I'm like, what the heck? Like, love is love. Like, you can fall in love with anybody regardless of, like, their race or their religion or their gender. And he's like, what? What?
00:09:33:19 - 00:09:59:18
Allison Moon
I'm like, yeah. It's like, you just love the person you don't love, like the the markers of identity. And he's like, no, that's you can't just choose to love somebody of the same gender. Like he's like, that's not how that works. I'm like, yeah, it is. He's like, no, it's not. And suddenly I'm like, okay, hold on. So I then I like recontextualize so many of those things like, oh, the dreams that I had about my, my friend in middle school, which I was like, oh, it's just because she's cool.
00:09:59:18 - 00:10:14:10
Allison Moon
I'm like, oh no, I had a I had a crush on her. And then like, that was just an interesting moment, like in this weird way, like the the kind of quasi bigotry of my boyfriend, like, help me realize, oh, I guess not everybody feels this way about their friends that I did. And for me, it was like, oh, I guess I'm bisexual.
00:10:14:10 - 00:10:31:08
Allison Moon
If that's like if gender isn't a problem for me, and I feel like I can fall in love with somebody regardless. So I was 16, I think, when I, when I was able to contextualize and use a label for what I had already just been feeling, which was, you know, vibes in every direction.
00:10:31:10 - 00:10:35:14
Dr. Nicole
And in the 90s bisexuality is still having lots of stigma.
00:10:35:16 - 00:10:52:01
Allison Moon
I mean one could argue it still has a lot of stigma. But yes I mean at the time absolutely it was. And that was actually interesting because again like I you know, I was such a involved a progressive kid, as soon as I realized I was queer, I'm like, I'm going to go volunteer at the Cleveland LGBT center.
00:10:52:03 - 00:11:12:19
Allison Moon
And even like one of the things that they wanted to do is they they had a bunch of young, not young people. They had a bunch of people who identified as LGBTQ or actually LGBT because she was not in the. Sure. Yeah, go to like local community centers and churches and like just talk about their experiences. Right? They were like, so if you're a volunteer, you just want to talk about like what it is to be a lesbian, blah, blah.
00:11:12:22 - 00:11:36:21
Allison Moon
And so as I was getting onboarded, they're like, so, you know, you just talk about what it is to be lesbian. I'm like, I'm not a lesbian and bisexual. And they're like, oh, well. And this was from a volunteer organization at the LGBT center. They're like, well, I don't think people really know what that means, because, like, gay makes sense because they just imagine themselves, but like inverted, like I just like, I thought I like women.
00:11:36:21 - 00:11:59:18
Allison Moon
So maybe if I just pretend that I like men, it's the same thing. But bisexual doesn't make sense to people. And I'm like, oh. And just even that was like I that by was so like they didn't even understand how to talk about it. It wasn't that they couldn't talk about it. It's just that they like, how do you pitch bisexuality to a bunch of conservatives who only have maybe have like one gay cousin, right.
00:11:59:22 - 00:12:20:18
Allison Moon
Yeah. And so that actually was a eye opening moment for me to just noticing that this is like, we we don't I mean, how quickly things have changed is, I think, really not to be underestimated. I'm a I'm a professor now. And so I have a lot of students and a lot of I mean, I say at least I mean, a good third of my students are openly queer.
00:12:20:21 - 00:12:55:11
Allison Moon
Yeah. And I kind of want to add some, like, history lessons because I'm like, this is, again, I'm not that old, but this is all in my lifetime. We like the bisexual like time magazine cover and all of that stuff, and obviously living through HIV and all of how that kind of brought like sexuality to the forefront. I mean, it was so it was shocking when you really look at just the amount of ground that we've covered, and we've obviously backslid in a lot of ways recently, but the amount of ground we've covered as like progressing towards sexual liberation for all people, it's really it's really started clicking in only in the past 30, 40
00:12:55:11 - 00:12:55:23
Allison Moon
years.
00:12:56:03 - 00:13:00:21
Dr. Nicole
Yeah, yeah. Which I think the internet has such a huge role to play in that.
00:13:00:23 - 00:13:05:19
Allison Moon
Oh, absolutely. For better and for us all the time. It's just always like the monkey spa of it all. Yes.
00:13:05:21 - 00:13:26:19
Dr. Nicole
So yeah, because it gives us space to have this conversation. We're having to have, you know, so many people where on what it was like Yahoo answers growing up it all these other places like like I do this is this normal. Right. And just the wave out of consciousness from all of that. So yeah. Good bad. Another was absolutely for context from my side.
00:13:26:20 - 00:13:43:13
Dr. Nicole
Like I have no idea that I'm queer. There's no understanding. I am the purity culture girly. You know, the evangelical that you're maybe laughing at, you know, like for her. Yeah. And I'm thinking, poor you, you you're full of so much sin. If only you know the way you know.
00:13:43:15 - 00:14:00:08
Allison Moon
Oh, God. Yeah. And that was in my high school. That was so much of the again, like, just the Angelika was. It was the culture was. And it was a public school. But by the by the time I went to high school, it was in public schools. But yes, it was still like very conservative Christian. And yeah, I remember rent was the hot thing.
00:14:00:08 - 00:14:21:03
Allison Moon
I was a theater kid. Obviously rent was the thing at the time. And I remember that exact dialog between the boy that I had dated who was a really, like, very religious but like, progressive. And then his best friend who was like this gorgeous, handsome musical theater guy, all the girls loved him. And we were talking about rent, and he said, well, I love the music, but it's just so hard to see so many people, so from from God.
00:14:21:05 - 00:14:38:21
Allison Moon
And I remember thinking, far from God. They love each other through the worst, their poor, and they're trying and they care so much about each other's humanity. How do you see that as far from God? And that was just such an eye opening moment for me about like, we don't see humanity the same way. We don't see God the same way.
00:14:38:22 - 00:14:59:06
Allison Moon
Like like the idea that you can see these people loving and supporting each other and but because they're queer or they have Aids or both, or they're trans, like, they're, they're somehow marked as and I'm like, that was just that, that broke my heart in a different way because I started to understand the philosophical underpinnings and I'm like, oh, we there's no way to reconcile these two things.
00:14:59:07 - 00:14:59:21
Dr. Nicole
Oh, yeah.
00:15:00:01 - 00:15:00:12
Allison Moon
Yeah, it.
00:15:00:12 - 00:15:01:23
Dr. Nicole
Was really bleak.
00:15:02:02 - 00:15:02:09
Allison Moon
So.
00:15:02:10 - 00:15:37:19
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm currently reading and writing a book endorsement for Doctor Rachel Smith's book, coming out on Surviving Purity Culture. By the time this episode come out, it might already be out, so I'll put it in the link in the show notes below. So. But, yeah, just reading all of that and having her even give so much framework, it's a lot of stories of different people who have survived purity culture, but just, you know, the first chapter, she really lays out the different pieces of the harm that it's caused and the research that we have now as we're recording, you know, right now in 2026, like just the research now that we
00:15:37:19 - 00:15:57:13
Dr. Nicole
can see of the damage. And when I'm reading all this, I'm just thinking about how widespread it is, even to the folks that didn't grow up, particularly in, like you're saying, a Christian school like I did, you know, or even in a religious institution, it's just it's it's the water that we swim in. Its everywhere. Right? And so just thinking about how widespread that is.
00:15:57:17 - 00:15:59:20
Dr. Nicole
Yeah, it absolutely breaks my heart.
00:15:59:22 - 00:16:25:13
Allison Moon
Yeah. I mean, I mean, I'm fascinated to read that book because I think that purity culture, it feels like it's it's isolated in evangelical communities. But it is absolutely not right. And you're right, it is absolutely the water that we're swimming in. And even now, it's like kind of just like we already have to kind of decolonize our own minds around our own internalized sexuality, like sexism or racism or all these different ways in which, like the the bad guys have taken up residency in our in our brains and purity is absolutely.
00:16:25:14 - 00:16:46:09
Allison Moon
I mean, again, we can we it's so easy to see on the national federal level right now. But like when we actually think of like the ways in which we police each like our friendships and like, I mean, I've been slut shamed at brunch talking about, like, the awesome sex I had the night before by a friend who I thought we could have those conversations with, but because it was the kind of sex that they thought was gross or weird, all of a sudden I'm like, why are we?
00:16:46:10 - 00:16:57:13
Allison Moon
Why are we doing this to each other like the rest of the world is doing that to us already. But but again, like, she didn't see that she was doing it. I barely saw that she was doing it. I'm like, dude, it's insidious down.
00:16:57:15 - 00:17:10:07
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. That hurts, that hurts. Yeah. Talk about a history lesson. It's like, lest we forget that the Puritans colonized this land and they left because it wasn't religious enough. Lest we forget.
00:17:10:12 - 00:17:18:08
Allison Moon
Yeah, I know, like the idea that, like, the Puritans are the ones that England kicked out for being too crazy. What? Pepsi's something right there.
00:17:18:11 - 00:17:18:20
Dr. Nicole
Well, come.
00:17:18:20 - 00:17:20:07
Allison Moon
To America. Here we are.
00:17:20:12 - 00:17:44:05
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. So I'm like, I'm. I'm masturbating to, like, queer porn, seeing things kind of on Tumblr because it was too scary to even look at porn at the time, but like seeing these gifts and things, right? And then every time just being like, oh God, put it away, put it away. I'm in college and now I'm like, picking topics for debate in my Bible class.
00:17:44:05 - 00:18:06:17
Dr. Nicole
I pick homosexuality as my first topic, and I'm just like, oh, they're going to hell. It's so clear. You know, later that year, I'm like, drunk making out with one of my friends, and I'm like, oh, it's just because I was drunk, you know, just like the cognitive dissonance that I went through, it's just wild to think how many people are holding that inside their psyches now that are still so vitriolic about it all.
00:18:06:17 - 00:18:10:09
Dr. Nicole
It's it's why we do the work that we do.
00:18:10:11 - 00:18:35:12
Allison Moon
I mean, it is really fascinating when you actually just kind of take a step back and look at just how like transgender identity has, has dominated the political cycle. And it's it's just this fascinatingly, like present, like I want to know about other people's genitals and where they putting them. And I'm like, guy like. And when you kind of step back and you're like, why are you investing so much energy in other people's bodies, other people's gender?
00:18:35:12 - 00:18:57:16
Allison Moon
Other like it's just it's really maddening when you like, like, why can't we talk about, like, the economy? Why are we talking about genitals so much? And like, the obsession and like, again, like any, you know, rational person can just see like, oh, well, when you suppress something that hard and that aggressive for that long, it comes out as rage, it comes out as fear, it comes out as like a need to attack.
00:18:57:19 - 00:19:10:21
Allison Moon
And again, like all of the people who I know who are like self-expression are like, just live and let live, like it's really so simple. But yeah, it's and again, like, it's so easy to see, but that doesn't mean that we can easily fix it.
00:19:11:00 - 00:19:21:01
Dr. Nicole
So yeah. And I'm about to say something that's absolutely not true. But isn't America about freedom? Like, you know what I mean? Like, I know that's not true, but like, what you guys like.
00:19:21:02 - 00:19:32:05
Allison Moon
I know yeah, I know you're like, just let's let's just let our bodies be our bodies, guys. It's fine. Like, we don't I don't need to care that much about what my neighbor is doing with his his body. It's not that big of a deal. No no.
00:19:32:08 - 00:19:34:12
Allison Moon
No no no no no no.
00:19:34:14 - 00:19:39:08
Dr. Nicole
Okay, okay. So now I'm me. When does that come? Next thing, next thing. When does that come in?
00:19:39:09 - 00:19:57:23
Allison Moon
This is funny. I feel like we're going through the stages pretty quickly, so. Yeah. The college for me was not monogamy because, I was dating a boy, and I, and he. And he was really good friends with this other boy. And I was really good friends with that guy. And the three of us hung out all the time, and we just really liked each other.
00:19:58:00 - 00:20:07:22
Allison Moon
Like we were just a good group of friends. And then one night I hooked up with the other guy and I remember going to my like, he wasn't really my boyfriend, but like, you know, it was like freshman year of college, whatever.
00:20:08:00 - 00:20:08:20
Dr. Nicole
Situation ship.
00:20:08:21 - 00:20:27:08
Allison Moon
Yeah. I was like, so like, I hooked up with, you know, I'll call him Steve. I hooked up with Steve and, and my boyfriend was like, oh. And I'm like, are you mad? He's like, I feel like I should be, but I'm not. And I'm like, cool. I'm glad that you're not too. And he's like, cool. And I'm like, can I do it again?
00:20:27:08 - 00:20:45:21
Allison Moon
He's like, yeah, yeah, I cool. And so like, the three of us kind of fell into this really like very casual, very low key kind of triad dynamic. Like that was just so lovely. And and it felt like it just kind of, it felt just natural. Right. Like it just felt like a natural extension of friendship and attraction.
00:20:45:23 - 00:21:01:13
Allison Moon
And I think that was where I kind of got, like, hooked on this kind of idea. Was it like the it wasn't about like, I get all the dick I want, like it was about like just allowing the natural progression of a relationship to be the natural progression of a relationship, and not not just between me and Steven, me and Dave.
00:21:01:13 - 00:21:24:15
Allison Moon
Like it was about like actually the natural progression of the three of us because they their friendship got deeper, like it was all quite lovely and on the up and up, and it was just a really beautiful like, oh, this is another paradigm that doesn't have to like monogamy is a paradigm that we don't have to uphold. I had already figured out that heterosexuality was not a paradigm I needed to uphold, so I was like, okay, let's just go in this direction.
00:21:24:17 - 00:21:25:22
Allison Moon
And yeah, it was really freeing.
00:21:26:04 - 00:21:46:07
Dr. Nicole
Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. I wrote my dissertation on relationship anarchy, and it was very common to see how genderfluid people were, how fluid people were in their sexualities. Many of them deconstructed religion. Right? Like, there's almost like once you realize the tooth fairy isn't real, maybe a clause in the Easter Bunny and the the whole thing should actually be questions.
00:21:46:10 - 00:22:04:12
Allison Moon
I mean, deconstruction is such a powerful tool. And I think, again, like, yeah, once you realize you have the power to do it. And again, for like a lot of people it happens. Young Megan's there will. Right. Like I'm, I know I'm in a body that doesn't feel it right. So like, I have to deconstruct the concept of having a body and identity, like you're just kind of it's forced upon you because of otherness.
00:22:04:13 - 00:22:20:11
Allison Moon
And I'm. That's where it's like queerness is such a gift because it's like the first time can be really painful and awful because you're like, oh, the world doesn't work the way that I was told. It works, and people don't behave the way that I was told that they have to behave. And no. Oh no, this is breaking my brain.
00:22:20:12 - 00:22:39:13
Allison Moon
But once you get through that, if you are so lucky as to get through that, then you suddenly have this amazingly powerful tool where you're like, oh, I'm going to deconstruct this, and I'm going to deconstruct this, and I'm going to deconstruct this and just see what the incumbent and parts are, and then it gives you such freedom to then build a life that really works for you, not just the the life that you've been handed.
00:22:39:14 - 00:23:01:23
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. Because my first one was God, even before queerness kink. And so I remember when I got out of that, I was crying, just like, why am I alive then? If it's not for the he him white God with the blue eyed Jesus, right. What am I doing? You know, and it was so destabilizing existentially. I was like, what is life?
00:23:02:01 - 00:23:16:12
Dr. Nicole
Right? But yeah, once you get through that, you you learn very quickly, okay? Discomfort is a huge part of this process and it's not something to be afraid of. It's going to be rough and brutal in so many different ways. But you know that there's something on the other side.
00:23:16:16 - 00:23:17:18
Allison Moon
Yes. Absolutely.
00:23:17:20 - 00:23:36:07
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. And tracking with you in your journey I mean, you're in college. Wow. That's sick that you're doing that at that age. I love that because I'm I'm still in my paradigms. Haven't even figured it out. It's only after college that I meet somebody, I'm hooking up with him, and he's like, yeah, I just don't do relationships. Like, he couldn't even say the word polyamory.
00:23:36:09 - 00:23:54:19
Dr. Nicole
We create some very basic structures of like just use protection and let me know if you have sex with anybody else. But at first, even before that, I told him, you know, the very classic response was like, if you loved me, it would be me and only me. How dare you? Slams the door, walks out. Two weeks later, we come back and we're like, well, maybe.
00:23:55:00 - 00:23:55:07
Dr. Nicole
Yeah.
00:23:55:09 - 00:24:09:14
Allison Moon
Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Like it's the fight that becomes like, okay, now I'm deconstructing that because I don't want to lose you. And like, I want to understand why this is happening and why like again, like there's I think also the paradigm that maybe you have come came from to is like, if you love somebody enough, you won't want to sleep with other people.
00:24:09:17 - 00:24:30:00
Allison Moon
And so like the problem is the solution to that problem is you have to love that person harder and and to like push everything else out of your, your brain, which again is is bullshit. But again, that's the lesson that we're told is like you're just focus harder on this one person then and then you won't care about sex or love or trying new things, or meeting new people or caring about other humans.
00:24:30:00 - 00:24:32:16
Allison Moon
It's just right. Yeah. To the exclusion of all others.
00:24:32:17 - 00:24:48:16
Dr. Nicole
Right? Right, right. And I think the only thing that shattered that for me was an ex coming back while I was with a new person, because I already had the love for the ex. Yeah. And I was developing something at the same time. And then that was the lightbulb moment of, wait a second, I still have feelings for the old guy.
00:24:48:16 - 00:25:09:22
Dr. Nicole
And this one like, well, what's possible? Yeah, yeah. So that that's, that's the moment where I start going. Okay, maybe, but, I have no understanding of NRE and and how much that impacts your sex drive. And I'm comparing people in the, you know, like, all the, the just those big mistakes that you make at the beginning of the journey.
00:25:09:23 - 00:25:10:21
Dr. Nicole
Completely.
00:25:10:23 - 00:25:18:05
Allison Moon
Sure, sure. I mean, yeah, again, like we're all just like, stumbling little Bambi's out there like. It's sometimes you're gonna make a lot of mistakes.
00:25:18:07 - 00:25:26:00
Dr. Nicole
So we have books and podcasts. We talk about it does come into the scene for you to. We're just covering all the grounds.
00:25:26:01 - 00:25:44:07
Allison Moon
Yeah. I mean, kink comes in as kind of a of more of a response to my community. I don't think I identify as particularly kinky person, although I kind of like in the same way that I kind of back to what you were talking about, your, your personal journey. Like, I started so young in my own exploration because, again, I had the privilege of doing so.
00:25:44:11 - 00:26:01:15
Allison Moon
Yeah. I think for me, like the thing that I can imagine going into in the, the, the final chapters of my life is actually I think me moving towards a kinky identity is kind of still left in the future for me. But I say that knowing I mean, like kind of my partner, I joke about this all the time.
00:26:01:15 - 00:26:31:12
Allison Moon
Is that, like, you know, to our kinky friends. We are very vanilla to our vanilla friends. We are super kinky, right? Like, because, like, even like group sex and, like, you know, going to camp outs and stuff. But for me, like, I think kink has always been a response to my partners. And I think so my journey around kink has been falling in love with people who need certain dynamics in the bedroom to feel self expressed, and me learning to how to to facilitate like be or how to use those dynamics to facilitate and experience for them.
00:26:31:14 - 00:26:52:20
Allison Moon
And so it's been very much of, of service. And in a way that I think is really beautiful because again, like as for me, sexuality has always been so like, so self-expression and so free and so like it's kind of not shameless but like, you know, shame minimal compared to my, my peers. Whereas with kink, I feel like, you know, it's really about what can I do for you?
00:26:52:21 - 00:27:16:12
Allison Moon
How can I be of service to you? How can I love you better? How can I give you more pleasure? And so I think for me, I really enjoy that there's something that is around sexuality that is just for others. There's just for people that I love. It's something I do for them. And not to say I enjoy it too, but it's, it's I think for me like there's, I think there's something really beautiful about like a kinky vanilla dynamic and playing with like, how can I.
00:27:16:13 - 00:27:19:13
Allison Moon
How can I create something special for you as a receiver?
00:27:19:19 - 00:27:45:14
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. Which is such a beautiful expansion of what's possible, because I think some people, you know, and everyone gets to do what they want will shut down, though, right at that point of being like, oh, it doesn't bring enough for me to qualify as a desire versus what I hear you talking about, like service, right? Enjoying that aspect of it because I think people are often thinking, oh, it has to completely turn me on to feel erotic versus.
00:27:45:15 - 00:27:50:21
Dr. Nicole
Oh, I actually enjoy giving for the joy of the other person. And that's what I enjoy.
00:27:50:23 - 00:28:06:05
Allison Moon
Yeah. And I think, I mean, like that might come from like me being a queer woman, like I have found that I really, really love giving women pleasure. And so it's like I can feel very satisfied in a sexual experience, not having my body touched at all. Not to say that I'm stoned, but like, I can absolutely enjoy the dynamic.
00:28:06:07 - 00:28:24:15
Allison Moon
And so and I learned that I'm like, oh my God. Like just seeing my partner's face contort in pleasure. I'm like, wow, so satisfying. Yeah. And then same thing with like, what of my partners is very kinky. And the dynamic is like, they really do need like a, a DS kind of dynamic. And I was really afraid of it for a very long time because I didn't want to do harm.
00:28:24:15 - 00:28:44:04
Allison Moon
Right? I didn't want to like reify old wounds or any of those kind of like the like we're just kind of like the, the what's the word I'm looking for, kind of just like an immature sense for me of power dynamics, because I was very afraid of just, well, if this came from trauma, I'm just going to read traumatize you like I can't.
00:28:44:06 - 00:29:07:16
Allison Moon
And getting to trust my partner and their knowledge of their own self, their body, their psyche enough to feel safe in them giving me power over them and to be able to use that responsibly. I think it's it's a different kind of satisfaction. It's not like, you know, I just had the best orgasm in my life. It's that I got to go someplace really intimate and really beautiful with somebody that I cherish.
00:29:07:16 - 00:29:12:16
Allison Moon
And what a gift that is. And it feels satisfying in a very different way.
00:29:12:19 - 00:29:36:22
Dr. Nicole
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I really feel this as a expansion of your palate, just of our palate for what we can enjoy in this. I know for me, when I first was exploring some of this, there would be connections where I'd feel great about, you know, using a dildo on them and having all that sort of pleasure and play, but didn't want to make out.
00:29:36:23 - 00:29:56:00
Dr. Nicole
And my brain was just struggling so much of like, how can I do this one thing? But not that. Like, how could I peg someone but not kiss the how could like, you know, because there's the escalator of the sex escalator and the intimacy escalator of what that's supposed to look like? Am I just couldn't.
00:29:56:02 - 00:30:25:07
Allison Moon
Yeah. I mean, I think that's kind of your. Yeah. Like the idea of the expanding of the palate, I think is really cool because again, like, if you're only ever, ever known sex as this kind of natural progression of a romantic relationship and it's always a monogamous paradigm, blah, blah, like it's just this very set pattern where it's like, if you go to a sex party and you're like, I'm not like, I don't want you to go down on me, but like, I do want to, like, slap you in the face a bunch, like, like that's like the negotiation of figuring those things out and figuring out the win win is such a fascinating exploration,
00:30:25:12 - 00:30:41:00
Allison Moon
particularly for, like, a brief encounter. Right? Like I'm never going to see you again. Like, what do we want to create right now together in a way that will be super fun for us. And then we can. We don't ever have to see each other again. We'll still feel really happy that we we met like that's a really interesting exploration.
00:30:41:00 - 00:30:53:09
Allison Moon
And again, like when you go to like a normal party, you're not like, all right, how can we spend the next 20 minutes like blowing each other's minds like, no, that's not how that works. But orgies. That's how that works. Yeah I know right. Wouldn't that be? Cocktail parties would be a lot more interesting.
00:30:53:10 - 00:31:07:12
Dr. Nicole
Than the amount of parties I've been at recently in my life after getting into this lifestyle. And I'm just like sitting there and I'm like, this would be so much cooler if this was a sex party. Right now, I'm just like sitting there like, oh, I shouldn't be here. I should be somewhere else. Yeah.
00:31:07:14 - 00:31:25:12
Allison Moon
I mean, it is kind of like it feels cliche, but it is like stripping down every literally to, like, just kind of like, see what's possible. I think, like, I mean, my, my ex is a very good friend of mine is started throwing a sex party and what she found was so fascinating was for specific for queer women of a certain like above the age of 35.
00:31:25:13 - 00:31:42:16
Allison Moon
Yeah. And one thing she found was that a lot of young, the young people coming to sex parties, they don't know how to cruise because they're using the apps so much. They're like literally making plans online to meet somebody at a party. And then they have the encounter, the party, and then they leave. And so my, my friend is like, we need to like, no apps in this party.
00:31:42:17 - 00:31:57:12
Allison Moon
Like, you meet people in the room, you decide what you don't want to do with them in the room. And then if you want to exchange information afterwards, great. But like we need to learn how to like, look somebody in the eye in person and be like, what are you into? What am I into? Like, how can we make this work?
00:31:57:17 - 00:32:00:14
Allison Moon
Because it's a lot. It's a dying art, unfortunately.
00:32:00:15 - 00:32:31:22
Dr. Nicole
Yeah, yeah. I'm of that younger generation. You know, my generation struggles with that. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Let alone something like sexuality and pleasure or. Yeah, just so much of my work has been researching the language formation, especially coming from period culture. Right. So I come from a place where I had no language. Right? So just the capacities of our brain to form language, like we're saying, to scan our bodies, to know what our desires are, to communicate that work through any of the people pleasing rejection as well.
00:32:31:22 - 00:32:35:16
Dr. Nicole
That can come with all of that. Yeah. This is a high level skill.
00:32:35:18 - 00:32:59:05
Allison Moon
Yeah. Yeah, it really is. And I think that again, like the it requires flexibility. And that's something I actually talk about a lot about in getting it is like I, we need to be able to like appreciate and and kind of like really build our ability to go with the flow, to find flexibility, to find win wins. And again, like if you're if you're kind of meeting online to do like okay, these are my checkboxes.
00:32:59:05 - 00:33:17:09
Allison Moon
This is what I want to have happen. You're planning so much is it can create really high expectations which can be easily dashed. And then also doesn't allow for the human like, the messiness of humanity, like, oh no, now I'm on my period and I don't want to, like, now we have to change brands.
00:33:17:11 - 00:33:18:09
Dr. Nicole
You guys.
00:33:18:11 - 00:33:40:20
Allison Moon
Have like and that's like all of those things, like, but like being able to like leave room for the, the, the unexpected or the spontaneous or the like. You know what? I was feeling this vibe online, but this is actually this is a completely different vibe feeling in person. And we need to be able to keep really working those muscles of flexibility because rigid things break easily.
00:33:40:20 - 00:33:59:12
Allison Moon
And that can be so painful in both romantic relationships, sexual relationships, just human intimacy that like, I really want to encourage people to to really just develop the ability to, to find win wins all the time and, and be able to change in a way that will honor people's needs.
00:34:01:03 - 00:34:06:14
Dr. Nicole
Yeah I do psychedelic assisted psychotherapy. So a huge part of that is surrender. Like yeah.
00:34:06:14 - 00:34:11:10
Allison Moon
You cannot preplan a psychedelic journey as much as people try.
00:34:11:14 - 00:34:20:13
Dr. Nicole
No. Exactly. And I do like a queer ketamine group every summer during pride. And so we do a one one medicine day. Right. So then you get all of the pressure of like the.
00:34:20:13 - 00:34:21:12
Allison Moon
One moment.
00:34:21:12 - 00:34:41:10
Dr. Nicole
And did I do it right? Did I get enough out of it? I had the plan. I wanted it to look like, yes. And that's part of the therapeutic process. And we worked through all of that. And I see that very similar in play spaces like this. Yeah, I know when I first started going to play parties, I really every single time I would have to sit with my lover and be like, okay, worst case scenario, we just are exhibitionists.
00:34:41:10 - 00:34:57:01
Dr. Nicole
Because, yeah, this pressure that if you're going to the party, you have to play, you have to perform. I mean, I don't even do this check in now, of course, you know. But like at the beginning I was like, it's okay, don't fuck. Yeah. We can just watch and that's okay, you know? And now it's like, yeah, I love one of my most recent connections.
00:34:57:01 - 00:35:04:03
Dr. Nicole
We met at a play party and we were just having tea on the couch, like, not even playing, just watching everyone fucking, like, isn't this, like, sick?
00:35:04:05 - 00:35:13:19
Allison Moon
Oh, yeah, I am. I am absolutely the fixture at the orgy. Just sitting by the snacks and shit docking like, yes, it's my favorite thing to do. And this.
00:35:13:19 - 00:35:24:13
Dr. Nicole
Is why I feel like when I'm at the other parties, I'm like, I wish this was a sex party. I think if someone doesn't go to sex parties, they might be like, well, why does Evan have to be fucking for you to have a good time? Nicole? And it's like, no, actually.
00:35:24:15 - 00:35:25:20
Allison Moon
It's not about that. Yeah.
00:35:26:01 - 00:35:43:10
Dr. Nicole
There's tons of people talking. It's the possibility that if you wanted to fuck, you can. And that is magical. Like, there's there's not that boundary of the social container. And it just feels so much freer that if we wanted to, we could instead I go back into this box or I'm like, okay, how are you?
00:35:43:11 - 00:35:44:12
Allison Moon
How's the weather?
00:35:44:14 - 00:36:12:07
Allison Moon
Like, I mean, I, I was I didn't I never thought I would be the kind of person who would be like kind of leading with my, my polyamorous identity because it's like, again, like the joke about, like, you know, how do you know somebody is a vegan or how do you know someone's polyamorous will tell you? Yeah, but I went to grad school and I, I was kind of like, I was I was afraid I was offending people by being flirtatious or like, because I'm like, this person's married, but, like, I mean, you're my friends who were just going to be cute with each other.
00:36:12:07 - 00:36:29:01
Allison Moon
And, and I was like, I need to let people know that, like, I am different. I'm from a different culture, like it was because it really is a different it's a cultural difference. The, the because I'm like and I'm like really like great boundaries, like I can I flirt with you without ever meaning that we ever have to get naked.
00:36:29:02 - 00:36:44:03
Allison Moon
Like, is it okay with you if I flirt with you in front of your spouse? You're just like, that's just the vibes that I come from. And it's not. It doesn't mean anything. It doesn't have to mean anything. Whereas again, in this very hetero monogamous world, a flirtation is like, well, you might as well be cheating, right? Yeah.
00:36:44:06 - 00:37:02:19
Allison Moon
And I and I just needed people to know that that's not who I am and that's not what I'm trying to do. But I also couldn't police my own because I couldn't I couldn't basically like code switch. I didn't know how. Because, again, living a very privileged life, I never really had to. And so suddenly I'm like, I'm having to code switch and I'm bad at it.
00:37:02:19 - 00:37:15:05
Allison Moon
So I'd rather just let everybody know, like, this is who I am, what I'm about. I'm never going to violate a boundary and I'm never going to like, like, like, like try and break anyone up. I just, I'm, I don't know how to not be this kind of person.
00:37:15:06 - 00:37:23:15
Dr. Nicole
Right, right right right right. And what is flirtation but play presence, some levity.
00:37:23:18 - 00:37:44:13
Allison Moon
But even again play in in presence with somebody that's not your spouse in a hetero monogamous world is like verboten. And that I find really fascinating. Yeah. And again, like and again, people have bad experiences. I don't want to, like, minimize people's own trauma around, like, you know, infidelity and whatnot. But like I've had I actually this is kind of a non sequitur.
00:37:44:16 - 00:38:02:05
Allison Moon
It's a funny story. I was I wrote a book about werewolf lesbian werewolves, and I was the first book I ever wrote. And I went to, like, doing all of the sci fi fantasy cons. Right. And I became friends with a lot of people there. And one of the people there, she was also a sci fi fantasy writer, and we became really good friends.
00:38:02:07 - 00:38:21:15
Allison Moon
Her husband, super cool guy, and we all lived in the Bay area and we just the three of us became friends, and we were at this conference and the three of us were hanging out in a big party, and her husband was like, do you want to go? He's like, I'm kind of tired of this, and I want to go check out this, you know, the laboratory upstairs and like, and he's like, you know, wife, would you like to go?
00:38:21:15 - 00:38:34:19
Allison Moon
And she's like, no, no, I'm in this conversation. And I'm like, I'd love to go. And he's like, yeah, that's great. And so like, the two of us just go off. And the people who were talking to this woman were like, oh my God, are you okay? That Alison is just like going to like, party with your husband.
00:38:34:23 - 00:38:56:08
Allison Moon
And she's like, yeah. And like, in her mind, she's like, we are kinky and queer and non-monogamous too. But she wouldn't tell them that. But she's like, it's fine, I trust my husband. But like, just the idea that, like, we were just going off to, like, have an adventure together was suddenly like this, like crisis that needed to be managed not by her, but by the people around the three of us who had decided for her that I was I was a threat, and.
00:38:56:12 - 00:38:56:14
Dr. Nicole
I.
00:38:56:15 - 00:39:04:02
Allison Moon
Really loved that. She was like, this is not a threat. And you don't even you're not even the same, like realm of threat.
00:39:04:04 - 00:39:12:17
Dr. Nicole
Which is the whole thing. When picking a therapist or monogamous therapist that I had in the past where I'd be like, oh, yeah, I met my metamorph for coffee.
00:39:12:19 - 00:39:13:08
Allison Moon
Yeah.
00:39:13:09 - 00:39:18:03
Dr. Nicole
How did it go? And it's like, oh my God. Like, it was great. Like, why are you. Why are you.
00:39:18:05 - 00:39:18:22
Allison Moon
Yeah.
00:39:19:00 - 00:39:19:07
Dr. Nicole
Oh.
00:39:19:12 - 00:39:20:04
Allison Moon
Oh.
00:39:20:06 - 00:39:38:22
Allison Moon
I had to seek out a therapist. And I remember how what a tough journey it was to find somebody who was like, not just like poly aware, but like poly competent was really important to me, you know? And so, like, that was the thing where I was like, I like, I met with somebody where I'm like, well, I'm, I'm, I'm the I had developed a line.
00:39:39:01 - 00:39:57:19
Allison Moon
I'm clear, I'm non-monogamous and I'm a slut. And none of those are the problem. Right. And that's and like and I said that to like I'm like, none of those are the problems that I'm coming to look for you for. And the finally the therapist who got it, what became my therapist because she's like, don't worry, like I have, I share some of those identities.
00:39:57:22 - 00:40:03:20
Allison Moon
No problem. The hardest thing we might have to figure out is like, let me know when you're going to a sex party, because I might be there too, and we have to figure that out.
00:40:03:21 - 00:40:07:20
Dr. Nicole
I have to say that to every client now in Chicago. Every time. Yeah.
00:40:07:21 - 00:40:23:01
Allison Moon
It's hard. I mean, being a yeah, being a kinky queer, a therapist is a tough road to hope because you do like you are actually not you're. Yeah. You can't go to certain things anymore. Your social life is now has to be policed in a different way, which is hard.
00:40:23:06 - 00:40:28:05
Dr. Nicole
Thank you for understanding my struggles. Yeah. At the play party, the two parties, owing to this last week and just like.
00:40:28:07 - 00:40:43:21
Allison Moon
Yeah. Oh yeah. No it's a it's I mean it's it's shocking. People don't often get it. But I mean even like I mean, you know, Darcy Easton talks about this a lot. I mean like she is like, you know, the writer of The Ethical Slut and she's like, okay, who's who's on the guest list because I, I can't go if like, I need to see who's coming.
00:40:43:21 - 00:40:46:00
Allison Moon
I'm like, oh, wow. That's rough.
00:40:46:02 - 00:41:08:15
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. And like I was talking about with Jessica Fern, who's been mentoring me like, it feels different with like 300 people at a play party versus 20 because there are some 300 people parties at Chicago. And that's a whole like, I can't I can't know, you know, but yeah, if there's a 20 or someone just invited me to a boat play party for a weekend, you know, like, that's like 12 people, like, yeah, I need to look on that.
00:41:08:20 - 00:41:09:17
Allison Moon
Yeah.
00:41:09:19 - 00:41:27:15
Dr. Nicole
That's different than the 300. You can hide in the crowd. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But speaking of cultures, yeah, I think that is such an important piece because when I was first coming up into this, I kind of explored with a community that was newer to it all, and I can understand the danger of the stratification of experience levels.
00:41:27:15 - 00:41:44:02
Dr. Nicole
But I do think experience level in a cultural if we want to use words like cultural, the ability to understand a new culture and get acclimated to it, there is a real reality to that. Sometimes my clients get afraid to be like, oh, I don't want to judge people and say they're below me or lesser than me.
00:41:44:02 - 00:42:20:06
Dr. Nicole
But there's a level of Croatian like, of understanding, just a acclimating to a climate in terms of the culture itself. And so when I was first in those spaces, yeah, I got like slut shamed of like, oh, no, you two, you're also hooking up with Nicole, and it just got every slap to the face on it, and it made me just want to shut down, so much so and just pull away because there's so much judgment around it that now when I go into other spaces, there is that fear where I'm, I'm, I'm getting to know these different scenes and it's like I want to take I was about to say years to
00:42:20:07 - 00:42:28:08
Dr. Nicole
get to know these people before I even fuck them, because I'm like, what's the culture? Is their drama, you know, just.
00:42:28:10 - 00:42:29:01
Allison Moon
Oh.
00:42:29:03 - 00:42:36:10
Dr. Nicole
You, you come in one time blazing, trusting in the ethical sled, and then you get burned and you go fucking not doing that again.
00:42:36:11 - 00:42:53:13
Allison Moon
Yeah. Well, then you realize like, oh, polyamorous people are people. And then all of a sudden you're like, oh, egos and jealousy and normal human shit. Like, it's not the panacea that sometimes is presented as right. And it's also not like the constant slog that other people's presented as like it is just like a different way of living your life.
00:42:53:13 - 00:42:57:22
Allison Moon
And with all the pros and cons that any way of living your life would come with. So yeah.
00:42:58:00 - 00:43:01:19
Dr. Nicole
So what does vetting look like for you? I'd be curious, like, how do you do that?
00:43:01:20 - 00:43:22:23
Allison Moon
And I mean, I've got as I've gotten older, like I have actually it's been I've been practicing allowing my sexuality to shift. Right. I'm, you know, I'm not quite perimenopausal, but I can hear it kind of coming down the path. You know, I was actually interested. I had a really lovely experience last summer where an ex came back into my life who had opened up his marriage and like, hey,
00:43:23:01 - 00:43:36:20
Allison Moon
And I was like, yeah, that sounds fun. And it was such a great object lesson for me. And I'm like, oh, I'm, I'm not really that interested in sport fucking anymore. Not to say that I don't still do it. I am going to a kinky camp out in, you know, at the end of the month like I am.
00:43:36:22 - 00:44:01:22
Allison Moon
I am that person still, but it's just way less interesting to me than, I mean, just really like deep, intimate connections. So I think for me now, like, I can meet somebody at a party. We have softened common. We're like, we like the smell of each other and we play, but more and more I find myself, like kind of moving into, like I used to say, like I was like, like pansexual and Demi Kingswood, right?
00:44:01:23 - 00:44:15:13
Allison Moon
Like, I need to get to know somebody before I do kink with them. I feel like I've become more demi sexual as I've gotten older, too. Like, I just want to I just want to know people. And I think, you know, for me, I'm like, I when after that encounter I had with my ex, I'm like, I'm, I'm looking for a love affair.
00:44:15:17 - 00:44:27:16
Allison Moon
I'm not looking. For just like, sex with random people. I mean, it's not like he was random, but like, you know, there was something that I'm looking for. This was a little bit more holistic, I guess, is maybe the way I would say it.
00:44:27:19 - 00:44:28:21
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
00:44:28:22 - 00:44:51:01
Allison Moon
So like and I like I have, you know, I have a, I have a like my nesting partner, I have a partner that lives in Los Angeles like I have like these deep, intimate, loving relationships. And I think sometimes like, you know, the summer or sorry, I mean, when this airs, I will have already gone and come back, but, you know, like I am, I, you know, I'm going to pride in Berlin with a group of my, my, my friends.
00:44:51:01 - 00:45:07:23
Allison Moon
And we're all like, you know, queer sex positive folks. And I'm like, you know, we're probably going to have some fun hookups with some randoms. And I'm looking forward to that in a, in more of like, a friendship building, way more of like a just like a like kind of like I mean, pride often does like an ascertain of identity kind of way.
00:45:08:00 - 00:45:24:05
Allison Moon
Like still sexual, still freaky, still fun. And I still like prize my just like deep nourishing relationships. I think that my vetting process is like, let's like fall in love with each other as people first.
00:45:24:06 - 00:45:24:22
Allison Moon
Yes.
00:45:25:00 - 00:45:40:07
Allison Moon
Which is a really tough bar to hit, which is now like, I mean, I don't I'm not having I don't have as many partners as maybe I should and I don't have as many sex, like, don't have as much sexes. Maybe I'd like to, but like I'm kind of okay with that because again, I'd rather like I like my own company a lot.
00:45:40:08 - 00:45:57:12
Allison Moon
So there's an element of like, I'd rather just not. I'd rather not have a mediocre sex with somebody I don't particularly care about than, you know, spending some quality time alone or working on a project that I love. So I think for me, that's been a transition because I, you know, because again, people know me from girl sex 1 to 1.
00:45:57:12 - 00:46:13:08
Allison Moon
So they're thinking, I'm like, I'm wrist deep in a lady every night. Which again, what? Good for you if you've got that going on. But that's not my life anymore. And I'm learning not to feel ashamed of that. Like I'm learning to feel okay with, like letting my body be my body and my mind and my heart be what they are.
00:46:13:09 - 00:46:30:23
Allison Moon
It's it's it's. But again, like, should we also be so lucky as to live long enough to see our bodies and desires change? Like we have to give ourselves the flexibility to do that, because that's what being a person is. And it's easy to say, but hard to feel like it's hard to do when you're at the orgy and you're just not feeling it.
00:46:31:00 - 00:46:32:17
Alliosn Moon
Yeah, yeah.
00:46:32:17 - 00:46:34:11
Dr. Nicole
And you're like, what's wrong with me?
00:46:34:13 - 00:46:35:00
Allison Moon
Yeah.
00:46:35:02 - 00:46:49:01
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. Nothing. Nothing. Things evolve and change. I mean, it's a huge point of surrender. I feel like huge. But also, I'm going to Berlin in July with love to hear, to do some research, to and connect with some people. So I'd be curious, like, what are you, what do you see when you're out there?
00:46:49:02 - 00:46:50:17
Allison Moon
Yeah.
00:46:50:19 - 00:47:05:16
Dr. Nicole
But yeah, I mean, back in the day, I wanted to marry a pastor because that's what turned me on. Like this perspective of this male, by the way, that would bring me closer to God. How kinky I think my kink journey begins. They're actually, like, lets me submit.
00:47:05:16 - 00:47:06:18
Allison Moon
To you. And did you.
00:47:06:18 - 00:47:12:23
Allison Moon
Have a whole thing with Fleabag season two? So many of my Catholic friends or my religious friends had a thing with Fleabag season two.
00:47:13:01 - 00:47:30:02
Dr. Nicole
I mean, it's all about the power dynamics. It's right. It's all about the power. I mean, the kinky spiritual scenes are still, like, so much fun for me. So much fun. But yeah, like the first time a male lover tells me I'm a good girl for sucking cock, I, like, melt into.
00:47:30:02 - 00:47:30:22
Allison Moon
The floor because.
00:47:30:23 - 00:47:32:08
Dr. Nicole
It's just like.
00:47:32:10 - 00:47:32:19
Allison Moon
Oh, my.
00:47:32:19 - 00:47:34:12
Dr. Nicole
God, like I'm doing something good.
00:47:34:12 - 00:47:35:06
Allison Moon
Oh my God.
00:47:35:09 - 00:47:51:08
Dr. Nicole
And then, you know, years later, I'm like, don't fucking say that to me. I'm a feminist. I don't need any more. You're a male. Don't you dare look at me. I only do this with queer people. Now fuck off. You know, it's like, okay, well, that change, you know, now I'm a little softer now where I'm like, yeah, we can play with all of it again, you know?
00:47:51:09 - 00:48:04:01
Dr. Nicole
But like, it's just it just keeps evolving. Evolving. But I've, I've never been like, oh, like there's a craving to do more. Just like sport fucking. Because I've never done it. Because I've come from the, like, religious.
00:48:04:02 - 00:48:04:20
Allison Moon
Right to.
00:48:04:21 - 00:48:20:09
Dr. Nicole
And then I took that straight into the polyamorous space, which is like deep, deep, deep, deep, deep. So like it's so funny just how like your erotic edge is also what's often, you know, abnormal to you or outside of your range. So if you're coming from that space, it's it's normalized for for me that's still the like.
00:48:20:11 - 00:48:39:20
Allison Moon
But yeah I think that's, that's such a again like it's such a fascinating of just like how journeys shift because like like yeah like so right now I'm, I'm 44 years old. So a ton of my friends that I, you know, especially like new in college. Let's just use like that. Like they got married, had kids, had their they did the normal thing right around.
00:48:39:20 - 00:48:58:02
Allison Moon
Now they're getting divorced. They're like they're they're discovering that they're kinky. They're discovering that they're queer. They're just they're like having their renaissance now. And I'm like, yeah, amazing. What's interesting for me is I did all of that early. Now I'm like, but like, let's talk about like love and like.
00:48:58:04 - 00:48:59:03
Dr. Nicole
And like, oh my God.
00:48:59:04 - 00:49:12:16
Allison Moon
Like, let's be naughty by like, buying a house in the suburbs. Naughty. That's so much more interesting to me because I didn't do that. They were all doing that. I didn't do that. And so now it's like we're we're on the same path. We're just shuffling the steps in a different way. So yeah.
00:49:12:21 - 00:49:19:03
Dr. Nicole
Totally the taboo. What's the taboo? It's the suburbs. It's the white picket fence for, you know, it's like.
00:49:19:05 - 00:49:22:05
Allison Moon
Let's like turn in early and like watch Netflix.
00:49:22:05 - 00:49:49:02
Dr. Nicole
I know, I love that. That's totally, totally, totally mirrored. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely I found okay. Like I am warming up to these okay. Well so much here. Some of the community that I'm connecting with is more swingers too. And then that's a whole like oh, fascinating. There's there is this immediate line before I engage in anything, but there's also this level of depth that is developing over years of play parties where I see you in these one off things.
00:49:49:02 - 00:50:08:21
Dr. Nicole
So it's like there is that third space, even though it's like someone's house each time, but it's community. And so getting to know people in that way or that feels much more of like, okay, I could explore the possibility because there is this ongoing relationship in a community style. But yeah, it does feel weird to know that even if there was more cravings, there's always going to be this.
00:50:08:23 - 00:50:27:04
Allison Moon
The boundaries are very strict. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think and it's like anything I mean, I used to have more negative things to say about swinging because again, like I also like again when I was coming up very heteronormative, very like, you know, women are expected to be by men are not allowed to be by like that kind of stuff.
00:50:27:06 - 00:50:48:11
Allison Moon
And I know that softened in a lot of ways. Not as many again, as maybe we'd like to. But I feel like that like I do also see like there's, there's freedom in boundaries, right? Like when you when you define the play space, it allows people to feel a lot safer playing. Right. And I think there's something really cool about that, especially for people who are new and curious.
00:50:48:12 - 00:51:05:23
Allison Moon
It's like, okay, like my my partner and I are interested in exploring open relationships, but like polyamory and all of that is way too scary. Like going to a swing club where it's like, we're just going to see what it's about. We know we're not going to exchange numbers with anybody. We know we're not going to like, get flirty afterwards.
00:51:05:23 - 00:51:24:01
Allison Moon
We know all of that. It's not kosher. So it's like we're going to just within within the rules and then allows you to really just feel a lot safer. So I think that those kinds of steps in can be really helpful. And then you can find like, oh my God, do these, do these boundaries feel restrictive? Do they feel wrong?
00:51:24:03 - 00:51:38:19
Allison Moon
Well then that might mean you want a different kind of em or, you know, but up until that point, like, I think being able to play with these ideas around knowing where the what's out of bounds and what's inbounds really, really helpful for people in their exploration.
00:51:39:00 - 00:51:55:17
Dr. Nicole
Totally. Absolutely. Yeah. There is a lot of security safety in the in those boundaries and those lines. And which is why you'll understand the journey of my psyche when I come from purity culture and go straight into relationship anarchy with no steps in between.
00:51:55:19 - 00:51:59:02
Allison Moon
Yeah.
00:51:59:04 - 00:52:18:17
Dr. Nicole
My nervous system was like, well, where is home base? Home base is where it's me in the web. Oh fuck. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, you know, like, just still writing that wave, you know, and finding it, but. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so I'm curious, you know, we're talking about hooking up safety, ethics. Something that just happened for me this weekend.
00:52:18:18 - 00:52:34:17
Dr. Nicole
I'm. I'm going to give you the scene. And also because I think it's important for anyone who's tuning in that doesn't know what this can feel like or look like. My younger self would be like, what did you do at the sex party? So I'm sitting with my lover on one side, and then another person comes up and snuggles to me.
00:52:34:17 - 00:52:52:08
Dr. Nicole
This one, all femmes, right? This other friend comes in, she's like, I want to fuck ten people tonight because it's my birthday. And I'm like, sick. Well, maybe you should actually fuck your birthday year. Like, let's let's up the ante the way up from ten. Come on. But she's she's on her mission, and I'm, like, sick happy to help, like, let me know, you know?
00:52:52:09 - 00:53:07:09
Dr. Nicole
So at one point, she comes up to the femme next to me and she's like, can I eat out your pussy? And the films like, yeah, totally. And as she's eating out her pussy, another, you know, femme comes with a strap on, starts fucking her from behind. And it's beautiful. And I'm like, snuggled in as my lover is also like asking with consent.
00:53:07:09 - 00:53:37:06
Dr. Nicole
Can I, like, touch your boobs? And I'm, like, snuggled in this fun sandwich that's happening and everything in my brain is going like, oh, like I could totally be a part of this person's birthday wishes and dreams. Like, here's another pussy. But everything about safety and SDI is is floating through my brain because I just came from another party where, like, they have all these signs up, you know, and I knew this, but like, hey, if you just ate someone out with your face or your hands, you know, like, please wash to keep everybody safe, you know, and I'm like, watching this person eat someone out.
00:53:37:08 - 00:53:57:08
Dr. Nicole
There wasn't an STI conversation beforehand and I because I was there and also then I'm thinking like, what is the risk? And I know that we cannot isolate the variable of oral sex because we often don't have communities that only do oral sex. So I'm just sitting there and research brain being like, I would want to do this, but, fuck, you know?
00:53:57:09 - 00:54:08:10
Dr. Nicole
And then so as I process it with community, like, you have to trust people, but I'm just curious, you know, you're you're a more experience in this. You've got the educator side. Like, what do you say to that? I'm just sitting there like.
00:54:08:12 - 00:54:10:12
Allison Moon
What's the what's the question though? Like.
00:54:10:13 - 00:54:22:18
Dr. Nicole
What's the risk of me opening up my pussy to that moment? You know what I mean? Like of having that person go from pussy to pussy and. Right. And then that's what shuts it all down, or I'm just like, I just I don't want to.
00:54:22:20 - 00:54:46:18
Allison Moon
Yeah. Well, I mean, I think like the trust but verify thing I think is important. Like, I mean, I think there's going to be when it comes to like a bunch of people with Volvos too. I think it does change the dynamic. Right. Totally. I think there's going to be the like, what's the actual practical, like scientific medical risk versus what does it feel like to have this uncertainty around safety?
00:54:46:20 - 00:55:06:18
Allison Moon
And I think we have to be able to tease those things apart because again, like, I mean, this is super common when it comes to like, again, lesbian sex education. It's like, you know, the risks, like using dental dams. We talk about using dental dams. How many people use dental dams? I mean, I I've thrown I've thrown orgies at Burning Man where everything is dusty and filthy.
00:55:06:18 - 00:55:41:02
Allison Moon
And maybe we saw two dental dams in my ten years of going to me. Yeah. So like there's, there's the pragmatics of it because again, like you can I think and this is where I think maybe the, the because I could teach an entire seminar about this. Please. To my God my perspective is that like we have to be able to like do this thinking for ourselves before she gets different, like, so like thinking of yourself of, like if this were to happen, like, how would I feel about this if this were to happen with this person, if something were to go wrong and I was to contract something, how would that make me
00:55:41:03 - 00:55:53:14
Allison Moon
feel like doing all of this work when you're like, just chilling at your house with no one around, right? Yeah. The big thinking, the difficult thinking, the, the, the triage should happen in our own hearts and minds first.
00:55:53:16 - 00:55:54:01
Dr. Nicole
Right?
00:55:54:02 - 00:56:10:03
Allison Moon
Right. Because everyone's risk awareness is going to be different. I mean, everyone's going to be like, oh yeah, I was tested recently. Well, what does recently mean exactly? Because eight months ago was recent for some people, last week as recent for others because these these words don't have meaning other than the meaning that we give them. So we have to be really thoughtful about that.
00:56:10:03 - 00:56:32:11
Allison Moon
So the best you can do is to get really clear for yourself about what feels okay, what what amount of risk we're willing to accept. Like, again, your risk assessment is going to be different from mine, is going to be different from everyone's right. And I think there is an opportunity to and I think this is one of the things that we often see in Sex Party is that people who don't go to them might not know happens.
00:56:32:12 - 00:57:03:17
Allison Moon
Is that timing out a hot scene with 8 million pussies grinding on each other and doing a quick check in is fine and happens, and I've done it where it's like, suddenly I'm like, wait, something's happening. I don't know what's going on. Time out everybody, and there's something actually really sweet about it. It's not not hot. And this is, I think, where people get like and again, kind of taking us back into there was a time when when condoms started becoming used because of HIV crisis.
00:57:03:19 - 00:57:07:06
Allison Moon
Yeah. Where people were like, but it's so unsexy to.
00:57:07:06 - 00:57:08:09
Dr. Nicole
Like have to stop.
00:57:08:09 - 00:57:28:23
Allison Moon
The thing and put a condom on. And you know what? As a culture, we survived the 30s of awkwardness supposed on like and then suddenly movies were able to integrate it and suddenly it didn't seem this awkward thing. Yeah. I mean, in the queer womb, this thing, it was like we would joke about strap ons being such a pain in the ass.
00:57:28:23 - 00:57:31:04
Allison Moon
They broke the mood. If you have to know.
00:57:31:04 - 00:57:32:04
Dr. Nicole
They. Don't just put the.
00:57:32:10 - 00:57:54:15
Allison Moon
Strap on on like. And so I think there's a part of me that we became, become, become so attached to the image, to the visual, to the fantasy of everything working. And everybody's having pleasure and everything's fine and nothing's wrong. That we become afraid of speaking up even as in our sex positive like therapeutic. We are, we're are these, these gods of sex.
00:57:54:19 - 00:58:14:09
Allison Moon
We still shut ourselves down and shut ourselves up from fixing something that could take two seconds to fix. Yeah. You're on my hair. My leg is cramping. I need to change positions like this is, again, the normal. I mean, if we're so excited about having bodies because we're such sexual people, we have to understand that having bodies means they don't always work the way we want them to.
00:58:14:10 - 00:58:41:15
Allison Moon
Right? And so sometimes we need to make adjustments. And I think there's something really beautiful about being in some hot clutch with six other people and then time timing out, switching it up, doing a check in, asking for something we want and then great, everyone's happy. Go right back into it. No love lost. In fact I mean I've, I've had so many opportunities of giggling and play and silliness and like new requests that came out of the pause because they were like, well, I wasn't really feeling it.
00:58:41:15 - 00:59:02:04
Allison Moon
But now that we took a break, now we can do something else. Yeah, like half take the break, half the conversation. You never know what awesome things going to come out of that. And if the moment is broken and irretrievable, the moment was meant to be broken, right? Like if those four people were like, I can't believe you asked for this when I was just about to shove my fingers in your twat.
00:59:02:04 - 00:59:06:14
Allison Moon
How dare you? If they're like that, then like you don't want their fingers in your twat anyway. Exactly.
00:59:06:17 - 00:59:09:02
Dr. Nicole
Exactly, exactly. And not my people.
00:59:09:06 - 00:59:30:13
Allison Moon
Yeah. And so I think that there's. I think there's power in that. And again, the image of the orgy where no one talks and everyone just knows exactly what to do, is a lie. It's Hollywood. It's bullshit. Right? The truth of it is you make the adjustments, you ask for the things you need. You go take a water break and come back and watch the people who are left have a great time together and just observe for a little bit.
00:59:30:15 - 00:59:39:10
Allison Moon
All of those things are are options. And there's they're all what makes it so much more, so much more intimate, so much more beautiful, so much more human.
00:59:39:12 - 00:59:55:17
Dr. Nicole
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Because there's a part of me that's embarrassed that I'm struggling with it, but then it's like, nope. This has been the point of the show from the beginning to be very vulnerable about all the pieces and what it means to grow in these skills. And the purity culture version of myself is still going like you do.
00:59:55:17 - 01:00:19:01
Dr. Nicole
What on the you were a part of what you know. So yeah, that's a part of the becoming and like yeah, it took years for me to be able to say, let's take a pause in the sexual dynamic because it was so, it was so like, you are born to give sex to your husband. I walk past Victoria's Secret, and my mom says, one day you will buy this so that you can give your body to your husband and make him feel good, right?
01:00:19:02 - 01:00:38:14
Dr. Nicole
Like, yeah, vary that frame. So for years, I have painful sex, I can't stop, you know, the first time I have queer sex and there's a dildo, I'm thinking, okay, well, what if if this hurts now, it's a fucking dildo. This isn't like this isn't pleasing the partner for me to be in pain anymore. So shattered everything. Like, thank God for queer sex.
01:00:38:16 - 01:00:49:12
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. And then. Yeah. And so, like, now I feel like I can have these conversations about SDI. And when you last tested and what was on your panel? Because not all panels are the same.
01:00:49:16 - 01:00:50:18
Allison Moon
Yep, yep.
01:00:50:20 - 01:00:56:22
Dr. Nicole
Okay. Yeah. And most panels don't even have HIV or HSV.
01:00:57:00 - 01:00:58:02
Allison Moon
Correct. Yep.
01:00:58:04 - 01:01:21:11
Dr. Nicole
Yep. Or easy. Right. 1 or 2 on there. So then you're playing with other variables around that. But there is something unique where like I can, I can do that one on one at a sex party with somebody new. But it's the social dynamic, like you're saying that adds this other people pleasing pressure to it or like this whole part, it's kind of like a, like a conversation when it's all going, you want to do that one check in question and like it's yeah, like it's still there for me.
01:01:21:11 - 01:01:31:16
Dr. Nicole
We're like, oh, I wouldn't want to ruin the vibe of all these hot femmes that are fucking right now, you know? But like, it's so easy now on the one on one. But still that group edge is a new moment for me. But.
01:01:31:18 - 01:01:52:09
Allison Moon
I mean, I think that when the way that I've gone through that is like when I'm in a group dynamic, I remember that I'm actually a role model for people and like, and not to say that like, everybody's like, oh, but like there there's like because I have so much more experience that a lot of these people in the spaces, like, I know that if I speak up, I'm it's kind of like when the kid asks the question, I'm sorry if this is a dumb question.
01:01:52:10 - 01:02:11:16
Allison Moon
Odds are other people have the same question. It's the same thing. It's like, I like me. Speaking up does something to give permission to everyone else in that space. And so suddenly, if they see me speaking up, or being awkward, or being ashamed or saying something really true and vulnerable, for me it just gives the other person a space to do that too.
01:02:11:21 - 01:02:25:12
Allison Moon
And so for me, sometimes I do it. If even if I don't have anything, I need to adjust just to let people know that they can. Because it's one thing to say it in the welcome circle, it's a very different thing to like when you're 30s away from coming, be like, oh.
01:02:25:14 - 01:02:28:06
Dr. Nicole
Yeah, but time out.
01:02:28:08 - 01:02:44:03
Allison Moon
We need to adjust. Like that's a big thing. And like, I think that there's something where it's like, I take that on. I take that really personally. Like as like I'm a sex educator. This is what I do. And I'm not off even when I'm out of nowhere, even when I'm supposed to be off. Because again, I'm living my truth.
01:02:44:03 - 01:02:52:04
Allison Moon
I'm letting people know, like, this is a way for liberation. We need to be able to remind ourselves that we need to liberate each other and ourselves all the time.
01:02:52:06 - 01:02:55:16
Dr. Nicole
Yeah, community care in the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:02:55:16 - 01:03:14:07
Allison Moon
I mean, it's the community hygiene of it, right? Like, just thinking about this as, like, orgies are community based. They they have to be. They can't not be. And so like being able to see this as, like a holistic organism of humanity, not just the interaction I'm having with the people, not just like whatever is going on in my mind, but like how we show up as a collective.
01:03:14:11 - 01:03:33:07
Allison Moon
It's role modeling for everyone, because those people that you slept with, or the people that just watched you sleep with somebody else, they're going to go have sex with somebody else, and they're going to bring the things that they learned at that orgy to the bedroom with that person. Yeah. And you can do great work by letting them know, like, these are good things to check in about or speak up about.
01:03:33:09 - 01:03:36:21
Allison Moon
It just it makes it just raises the sexual IQ of your entire community.
01:03:37:01 - 01:03:55:03
Dr. Nicole
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm a fallible human in so many ways. All the time. I try to be as consent for it as possible all the time. Right. And then that can kind of even be this moment where, like, someone's leaning in for a kiss, you know, I want to be like, do you want to kiss? You know, like, ask every time, you know?
01:03:55:04 - 01:04:15:06
Dr. Nicole
But then there's just the human moments of, like, someone's clearly indicating a nonverbal. But I love to be so clear, like that kink side of me that negotiates every scene. It's like, is it okay to touch, you know, versus those moments of just like, just be a little bit of a human being? You know that line when you are an educator and thinking so hard about it in every moment, like.
01:04:15:08 - 01:04:33:00
Allison Moon
Oh, yeah, I mean, my my partner jokes that he can't even really have sex dreams. Like he just because, like, he'll interrupt himself in the sex dream to be like, did he have a say for sex conversation? Oh my God, that's. Good though. Yeah. I mean, it's great, except for, like, it's sometimes it's really nice to just be able to have a sex dream, but yeah, that's it's it's a thing that happens.
01:04:33:00 - 01:04:57:09
Allison Moon
Yeah. Like you become so like yeah taking on that role but also allowing for the messiness or just like the, just the, the, the feeling driven by the desire and like just and I think but that requires a trust in yourself but also the person that you're with to like, can you are you navigating this clearly too. Like can I give you the, the, the respect to know that you you're doing this with full knowledge and consent of what you want?
01:04:57:10 - 01:05:09:12
Allison Moon
And I think that can be really hard when you have more experience or you know, you've been out longer or whatever, you just kind of have to also let the other person be a human being on their own journey. Which is sometimes really hard.
01:05:09:14 - 01:05:29:05
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. Which goes back to the kink pieces when you were talking about, is this just activating trauma in a way that could be harmful, like, yeah, what does it mean to trust the person and the amount of trust you need to do like a, C and C, seeing the trust in them, the trust in yourself. Right. It makes sense that there'd be so much more vetting about that, depending on everyone's risk and comfort level and all of those pieces.
01:05:29:10 - 01:05:48:18
Dr. Nicole
But yeah, it's a huge, huge moment of trust. But I love I love the dreams because I think, dreams are such reflections of our psyche and what's possible so that your partner is going there. I mean, I remember almost it was that exact night that I went to my first play party, that I then had a dream about play parties.
01:05:48:20 - 01:05:49:12
Allison Moon
Cool.
01:05:49:14 - 01:05:59:01
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. Like simmered into the next day. It was like all, all of me and these hot femmes eating ice cream and fucking each other, like, really? And that's like.
01:05:59:03 - 01:06:00:03
Allison Moon
So some.
01:06:00:06 - 01:06:09:18
Dr. Nicole
Yeah, I know, it's like everything has expanded. This is so cool. But I never had that because I hadn't stepped into the space my brain couldn't even fathom yet.
01:06:09:19 - 01:06:13:13
Allison Moon
Yeah.
01:06:13:15 - 01:06:35:06
Dr. Nicole
I just I'm so passionate about the work and having conversations like this, because I just want people to know so much more of what's possible for their life, and truly their dreams when they're sleeping, but also like their dreams and desires and pleasure. It's just so many of us, and my previous self is in a box that doesn't even know this other world that is possible.
01:06:35:11 - 01:06:44:14
Dr. Nicole
Feels like it's so far out of touch. I'll get clients from rural areas and they're like, no one around me does this. How do I yeah. How do I do this? You know.
01:06:44:16 - 01:06:58:08
Allison Moon
I mean, one of the great pleasures of my life has I get so many messages from friends being like, like, I, I saw a friend of mine in New York and we had dinner, and he's like, I had my first threesome. I was like, oh, yeah. And like, I was the friend. He he couldn't wait to tell. And he finally had a threesome.
01:06:58:08 - 01:07:12:20
Allison Moon
And I'm like, I loved it. I'm like the I'm the friend that you want to like, celebrate your sexual wins with because it just, I'm so grateful that they put that trust in me that I won't judge them or shame them or ask them about like, oh well, did you get jealous? It was like, no, it was just like, tell me everything.
01:07:12:20 - 01:07:31:20
Allison Moon
How was it like a sleepover? Like, I want to hear all the detail. It's such a great it's so joyful for me to be able to be present to people's sexual joy to. Because, again, like, especially as a therapist and as a secretary, like, we are also very privy to people's sexual pain. So like being like being able to celebrate people sexual wins just feels like that.
01:07:31:20 - 01:07:36:09
Allison Moon
This is just such, such a beautiful, a beautiful career path for.
01:07:36:11 - 01:07:44:04
Dr. Nicole
So absolutely. Yeah. My two groups are called pleasure, Liberation, sex and and it's queer joy in the summer. Right. So it's like yay!
01:07:44:06 - 01:07:44:22
Allison Moon
That's great.
01:07:45:00 - 01:07:52:05
Dr. Nicole
I'm trying to hold as much space for all the joy, because so much of the therapy space is like, yeah, tell me your trauma. The thing that ever which is needed it.
01:07:52:10 - 01:07:54:04
Allison Moon
Absolutely necessary. But so is joy.
01:07:54:06 - 01:07:55:06
Dr. Nicole
Oh, yes.
01:07:55:08 - 01:07:56:21
Allison Moon
Yeah, exactly.
01:07:57:02 - 01:08:14:15
Dr. Nicole
Exactly, exactly. Yeah. I teach yoga one day a week, and I love having that balance and all of the things that I do. And I remember one of my youngest students, I had talked to them about the podcast and it was like, yeah, about a month later they came up to me after class, not even like a friend, but like a yoga student, and they're like, oh, cool.
01:08:14:17 - 01:08:19:02
Dr. Nicole
I had my first three some and it was amazing.
01:08:19:04 - 01:08:19:22
Allison Moon
Yay!
01:08:20:00 - 01:08:28:13
Dr. Nicole
I was like, technically we haven't talked about any of this. I just said my podcast name, but like, yeah, I'm here sick, like happy to be the person that you tell this to.
01:08:28:18 - 01:08:29:09
Allison Moon
Totally.
01:08:29:11 - 01:08:30:00
Dr. Nicole
So sick.
01:08:30:03 - 01:08:43:15
Allison Moon
Yeah. And it like, it makes you feel like wow. Like again, like a lot of people don't have people that they can talk to about this. I mean, again, like, I think podcasts are so beautiful. I mean, that's why I wrote the books that I wrote. A book can find people in ways that like, you know, a party cannot.
01:08:43:17 - 01:09:01:02
Allison Moon
And so it's like I was, you know, writing girl 601 when I was throwing orgies in my Oakland loft. Like, it was so easy for me to just, like, think that my community was just, you know, people who were going to sex parties in Oakland lofts, whereas, like, I would get fan letters from, you know, trans people in Malaysia.
01:09:01:03 - 01:09:22:12
Allison Moon
Like, I mean, it was really genuinely like, I'm getting these messages from people all over the world. And that to me was like, oh my God, this is so important that like to be able to reach people where they are in an intimate space in their ears, through their eyeballs, like when with a one on one relationship that is so powerful and again, like people be people all over the world.
01:09:22:13 - 01:09:44:06
Allison Moon
Like it's not just the sexual freaks that live in San Francisco and New York. We are everywhere. Yeah. Yes. And and being able to like, find those resources is, I mean, crucial again. Like for me growing up in Ohio, you know, like it's just, you know, if I, the internet became a place where I could find people like me and realize that I wasn't the only person who was experiencing these feelings and needs.
01:09:44:08 - 01:09:49:02
Dr. Nicole
Totally. Hosting the play parties as a whole. Other level of responsibility.
01:09:49:04 - 01:10:05:04
Allison Moon
Yeah. I mean, I picked that up from my partner, Reed Milko. He'd been throwing sex parties for a while before we met, and again, like, it was mostly I mean, I think, I mean, he could speak for himself on this, but I think what was so exciting for me was that, like, we, you know, we got to do it on our own terms.
01:10:05:05 - 01:10:29:01
Allison Moon
Like, I like, again, we're not very kinky, like black leather and lace kind of people. We're very silly, playful people. So we started throwing sex party brunches like full daylight afternoon, like, yeah, it was great. And I was like, come in your jammy jams? Like, we're not about like, standing and posing here. We are about like, having fun and cuddling with our friends and being able to like.
01:10:29:02 - 01:10:52:05
Allison Moon
And we also weren't charging money for them. We were just doing as a community thing. So like, I didn't realize at the time how now I can look back on that time and be like, wow, that was so special. But like, you know, and also that community has shifted a lot. But like, you know, nowadays Sex Party is going to cost you $75 or it's like it's or it's like you just it's hard to make friends and you have to go with lovers you already met on the internet and all that stuff.
01:10:52:05 - 01:11:08:04
Allison Moon
It's like, I think it was a really beautiful time to be like, let's just gather together as people. And yeah, some, some people are going to be smoking weed outside and some people are going to be like hanging out the snack table, just talking about their most recent breakup. And some people are going to have to go pick up, pick up their kid from soccer practice in two hours.
01:11:08:04 - 01:11:38:23
Allison Moon
So let's get her done. You know, like, right, there was so much of that. And I'm like, it really just helped me understand. Like I helped me understand like a deep, like, almost spiritual level, like how important eroticism is in community. And not just because, again, in a kind of mainstream, monogamous, hetero paradigm is that sex is a secret thing between a married heterosexual couple, and you don't talk about it with your friends unless you're having problems like it's there's not there's you don't share eroticism with your girlfriends like it's so restrictive.
01:11:38:23 - 01:12:02:11
Allison Moon
And then seeing being able to see like, oh no, this is what happens when a community is sexually expressed. When a group of people feel safe to explore eroticism around each other. Yeah, it's I mean, and I can't say it's, it does one thing. I think it it hits everyone in a different way. But I think that that is so valuable, and it does allow people to have much more difficult conversations than they might have with other people.
01:12:02:12 - 01:12:08:05
Allison Moon
Like it opens up other opportunities because again, I've seen your face. I've seen your butthole.
01:12:08:07 - 01:12:08:12
Dr. Nicole
Like.
01:12:08:12 - 01:12:09:08
Allison Moon
Let's talk about.
01:12:09:08 - 01:12:10:21
Dr. Nicole
Our feelings. Yeah.
01:12:10:23 - 01:12:11:20
Allison Moon
Exactly.
01:12:11:22 - 01:12:17:08
Dr. Nicole
Exactly. Exactly, exactly. When you release the shame. Yeah, yeah.
01:12:17:10 - 01:12:33:05
Allison Moon
And it allows for so many different things. And again, I'm not going to say this is some sort of Paradise. Like, people still be people, but, like, I think that it does just give you an opportunity to see what's possible, and to see what kind of relationships and what like what kind of person you can be for each other.
01:12:33:07 - 01:12:56:03
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. The possibilities. Yeah. Because I always think about yeah. What does vetting within those spaces look like. Or transformative justice when harm occurs. Because that's, that's the role of the facility like the space holder in many ways. And so that's why I've. Woof woof. You know like that that is a real responsibility. You know, because I'm walking through that play party with my lover and she's like, oh, don't talk to that person.
01:12:56:03 - 01:12:59:04
Dr. Nicole
They've had some things in the community, which is.
01:12:59:06 - 01:13:00:01
Allison Moon
Yeah.
01:13:00:03 - 01:13:02:20
Dr. Nicole
We could get in a whole conversation about gossip and safety and.
01:13:02:20 - 01:13:03:22
Allison Moon
La la la la la la la.
01:13:03:23 - 01:13:08:13
Dr. Nicole
But like, yeah, how do you and maybe that's an episode too, but you know what I mean? Of just like.
01:13:08:18 - 01:13:31:19
Allison Moon
Repairing harm and the community harm. Yeah. I mean, I think that and yeah, I agree that this would be a whole other conversation. But I mean, I think we're we're at is similar like things have shifted really fast. And I think there were not like there were some technologies that came out that weren't wielded well. There were some like some accountability processes that didn't go well, some that did, but a lot of them tend to be quiet.
01:13:31:19 - 01:13:46:18
Allison Moon
I think this was also like the era of like Twitter being the biggest thing in the world was that like there was there were these public forums that allowed for you to call people out, but it didn't actually translate to like community, like justice and humanity.
01:13:46:19 - 01:13:47:23
Dr. Nicole
No. Yeah.
01:13:48:01 - 01:14:04:07
Allison Moon
And so where I got frustrated was I would see these call outs as though that was the work. And like, that's not the work though. Like the community hygiene is the work. So like, and then it became this like calls for like, well we want to see like a public transparent process. And I'm like, well that's also not the work.
01:14:04:09 - 01:14:26:10
Allison Moon
Like a lot of the stuff is like very intimate, very like person to person. I remember having a conversation with a friend of mine, like, because my partner had had an accountability process that he went through. And again, I can talk like you guys could talk about it. But I think what was so fascinating for me was that I was really struggling with this kind of like this, this need for strangers to be appeased in the situation.
01:14:26:11 - 01:14:45:04
Allison Moon
Like there were people calling for their own sense of justice. Where am like, you weren't even you don't you're not any you're not involved even a little bit in this situation. Yeah. And but they were the loudest voices demanding answers where I'm like, well, even the person who feels that they had the victim, the victim status isn't calling for these things.
01:14:45:04 - 01:15:02:11
Allison Moon
Why are you. And I remember just being so confusing, like, who are we trying to to heal here? Who are we trying to to make whole? Yeah. And often you find just the people who are broken need to be made whole, and they're going to come looking for healing, even if they have nothing to do with the situation.
01:15:02:12 - 01:15:09:21
Allison Moon
Anyway, this guy, he said there's a reason why divorce trials aren't or divorce proceedings aren't jury trials.
01:15:10:02 - 01:15:11:15
Dr. Nicole
Sure. Yeah.
01:15:11:16 - 01:15:37:02
Allison Moon
And I remember that was such a fascinating framing because I'm like, you're right. Like, you would not ask a jury of your peers to decide on the fate of your marriage. That's an inappropriate use of of of jury. They're not they they can't possibly have the the knowledge that they need to decide. It has to be a thing decided amongst the people who are just directly involved in all of this.
01:15:37:02 - 01:15:55:19
Allison Moon
And I think, and then we can kind of like, then go out to the public and be like, this is where we got to. But like, there's something about that that really I was like, there was this time when the internet needed to be satisfied before. And like oftentimes people would prioritize their own need for safety before even the victims.
01:15:55:21 - 01:16:15:10
Allison Moon
They didn't they didn't care about how the victim felt. They cared about how they felt. And that to me, it just I felt like it was like, this is a technology around, like restorative justice, transformative justice that a lot of people think that they understand, they do not understand yet. And there's a lot of people who are kind of hanging their shingles as experts that weren't experts.
01:16:15:12 - 01:16:26:20
Allison Moon
And that bothered me a lot because it's like, I think that there's so, so, so many opportunities for this kind of community care to be developed in more powerful, like, non carceral ways.
01:16:27:00 - 01:16:27:11
Dr. Nicole
Yeah.
01:16:27:12 - 01:16:45:00
Allison Moon
And I don't think that that conversation has gotten nearly enough traction mainstream yet to be able to have an intelligent conversation around how we can use those tools. Like, I still feel like there's there's a requirement of expertise and specialty that, yeah, we need to keep on cultivating.
01:16:45:02 - 01:16:46:18
Allison Moon
01:16:47:00 - 01:17:04:17
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. Absolutely. Mediators the whole piece. Yeah. How do we roll out all of that information and what stays private. I mean yeah. And that's something that is also across even not just the kinky sex positive spaces but the polyamorous spaces to and really any relationship and family dynamic and community. You know what I mean. Just of like yeah.
01:17:04:18 - 01:17:08:11
Dr. Nicole
What is private. What is public. Yeah, yeah.
01:17:08:16 - 01:17:24:23
Allison Moon
And like what is healing and what is like what are we. I mean, I mean, it's like one of the most basic philosophical questions like, what are we responsible for? Like, what do we owe each other? Like from again, writ large. It's I mean, we don't have a satisfying answer for that because it is genuinely a conundrum.
01:17:25:01 - 01:17:46:06
Allison Moon
And thinking about the question is the point of the question. But it's again, it's hard to, especially when we need to deal with sex because sex is so, so fraught. Yeah. To be able to find ways to have intelligent conversations that aren't just steeped in the same sexual shame we all grew up in, because it's very easy when we all feel scared to revert to the lessons we got as children.
01:17:46:06 - 01:18:04:22
Allison Moon
We feel like children in those situations, so we're going to be using the same tools we were given as children, which is blame punitive. Like whose fault is it? Don't gossip like all of the stuff that we get and we're like, that's not satisfying. That's not enough. We need to be able to come to each other as the full intelligent adults we are that got us into these situations.
01:18:04:22 - 01:18:17:10
Allison Moon
We need to be able to use the same tools to be able to find ways to untangle them, instead of just reverting to name calling and like, you know, just the most, the most childlike way of thinking about this stuff.
01:18:17:12 - 01:18:41:03
Dr. Nicole
Black and white. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and this is where I love these conversations. When we get to a space of having much more of a, a, a community holding transformative justice, how do we work through the harms, all the different isms that have impacted us to create these moments that are happening in our communities? And how do we not tear each other apart when there are much bigger systems to be fighting?
01:18:41:06 - 01:18:57:09
Dr. Nicole
Right. So how do we actually do that and hold that? And I think, I mean, we know this because we're in this space and community, but some people who look at us are like, oh, those people just fuck each other and just are just heathens. And I'm like, no, we're we're really passionate about, like how to help one another and create these spaces.
01:18:57:10 - 01:18:58:21
Dr. Nicole
And the anarchist.
01:18:58:21 - 01:19:05:05
Allison Moon
Some of us. Some of us are just there for a quick fuck that's let's be clear, colored glass.
01:19:05:07 - 01:19:14:15
Dr. Nicole
We are great. Yeah. You know. Yeah. But like, yeah, the anarchists would always talk about another world as possible and it's like, yeah, another slutty world is possible.
01:19:14:16 - 01:19:17:10
Allison Moon
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
01:19:17:12 - 01:19:19:19
Allison Moon
Yeah.
01:19:19:21 - 01:19:25:01
Dr. Nicole
Well, we've gone so far in our time. It's such a joy if we by flew by.
01:19:25:03 - 01:19:26:11
Allison Moon
Yeah.
01:19:26:12 - 01:19:36:01
Dr. Nicole
But before we go to our closing question, I'm curious, what would you say to your younger self who's just starting out the journey?
01:19:36:03 - 01:19:41:06
Allison Moon
I'm gonna be fine. No. It's fine. No I'm not. What's happening?
01:19:41:06 - 01:19:41:19
Dr. Nicole
Where am I?
01:19:41:20 - 01:19:42:18
Allison Moon
Where's my kid?
01:19:42:22 - 01:19:43:12
Allison Moon
Tell me.
01:19:43:14 - 01:20:01:04
Allison Moon
Yeah, again, like I, I want to I feel like I. It's important for me to always make sure I share, like, my privilege. Not because I want to brag, but because I want people to know that, like, my journey is not going to be everyone's journey. And I did have a lot of things easier than many people. Not everything.
01:20:01:05 - 01:20:23:10
Allison Moon
Some things I had a lot harder than other people. But I think that for me, you know, you're it's the fact that you're listening to podcasts like this, you're curious about these kinds of lives that you have. The hopefully these conversations with loved ones like that says, I mean, you're already doing so much better than most of the people who've ever lived on this planet, right?
01:20:23:11 - 01:20:51:21
Allison Moon
Like just your own life with curiosity and flexibility and a like a desire to grow and know yourself. That's a win. You know, that's a. Huge win. Like, let's talk about the unexamined life, right? Like examining your life just by its very nature makes you a better person. So I think that like that, that like approach to like you're going to be okay, it's going to be okay.
01:20:51:23 - 01:21:15:15
Allison Moon
Taking some of the pressure off, like making all the right choices at all the time. And personally, one of my hardest things is that I and this is kind of maybe back to the greedy bisexual of me, right? Is that like I want I wish I could live so many more lives. I wish I could world walk more than I do, but unfortunately time and space and physics being what they are and my personal philosophies, I can't.
01:21:15:15 - 01:21:37:01
Allison Moon
I can only live so many. And so I think there's a part of me that has to learn to just like, accept the choices I've made, not dwell on the choices I could have made. And, you know, from everything from, like, man, maybe I should have moved to Germany when I had the chance. Or maybe I should have asked that person to dance like all that.
01:21:37:01 - 01:22:01:01
Allison Moon
All of those things. I think, like, I think my personal yoga is learning not to dwell on the possibilities and learning to be way more present to the choices I've made, and be much more proud of the person that I was when I made those choices, and honor the choices. Like, I think one of the best things that I've learned and actually my partner taught me this was that like, you know, you have to imagine that everyone's doing the best they can.
01:22:01:05 - 01:22:17:00
Allison Moon
Yeah. Not like and that's that's just a better way of going through the world. But you also have to give yourself that grace, too, if you're going to believe it for other people. You have to believe it for yourself. I did the best I could with the choices that I had. And that will help help open up and remove a lot of shame.
01:22:17:00 - 01:22:36:23
Allison Moon
A lot of regret is like you. You do the best you can. And I believe that for us, like. And sometimes those choices are very stymied by a lot of circumstances. And our best isn't nearly as good enough as we wish it were. But giving yourself the grace to know that you worked with the information you had, you made the best choice for yourself at the time you did.
01:22:37:00 - 01:22:44:18
Allison Moon
And the next time you might make a different choice. But you're going to do the best you can then to I think that's it's really it's been freeing for me.
01:22:45:00 - 01:22:45:15
Allison Moon
Yeah.
01:22:45:18 - 01:22:47:18
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. There's a lot of acceptance in that.
01:22:47:21 - 01:22:52:06
Allison Moon
Yeah, yeah.
01:22:52:08 - 01:22:54:23
Dr. Nicole
Harder on those tough days to feel that way.
01:22:55:01 - 01:22:58:16
Allison Moon
100% I've been missing all week. I have been, like, full.
01:22:58:16 - 01:23:06:01
Allison Moon
Of rage at so many things. I. So many choices I've made. Yeah. But yeah, again, you just gotta let that stuff go. It's it's hard, but it's it's real.
01:23:06:05 - 01:23:13:07
Dr. Nicole
I know, Jessica, I had my supervision this morning. She was trying to get me to do parts work and, like, separate the different parts of the judgment and the shame parts, and I'm like.
01:23:13:09 - 01:23:14:08
Allison Moon
01:23:14:10 - 01:23:20:17
Dr. Nicole
They feel so close. Yeah. She's like, she's like, can you ask it to take a step back.
01:23:20:19 - 01:23:21:04
Allison Moon
You know?
01:23:21:05 - 01:23:22:12
Allison Moon
So yeah.
01:23:22:14 - 01:23:23:12
Dr. Nicole
Yeah, we're doing it.
01:23:23:12 - 01:23:28:12
Allison Moon
We're doing great. Oh I love that. Yeah yeah yeah yeah.
01:23:29:10 - 01:23:38:18
Dr. Nicole
Allison, as we're closing, I'll take a nice deep breath with you here.
01:23:38:20 - 01:23:46:13
Dr. Nicole
And see if there's anything else you want to share with the listeners. Otherwise, I have a closing question, and we'll plug all of your stuff at the end, too.
01:23:46:15 - 01:24:02:00
Allison Moon
Well, I think I mean, yeah, maybe my last little thing that I've been thinking about is like, I moved away from sex ed into more like film and theater because I've been really interested in, like, I've been didactic for a long time. Right? I've been teaching people how to do things for a really long time. And again, I've found a lot of value in that.
01:24:02:00 - 01:24:25:14
Allison Moon
People have found value in that, and I'm grateful. But I think I'm more interested in the inquisitiveness, in the kind of open questions and the exploration that comes through storytelling and narrative and kind of just it's not about having the answers, it's about posing the questions. And so I think, I think there's a lot of value in just the act of posing the question, not necessarily even seeking an answer.
01:24:25:16 - 01:24:31:23
Allison Moon
So I would like to just maybe give people a chance to ruminate on that a little bit for themselves if that feels alive.
01:24:32:01 - 01:24:34:13
Allison Moon
Yeah, absolutely.
01:24:34:15 - 01:24:41:20
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. Even before we started this conversation, I said, the point is for us to have an intimate conversation, not to have the A, B, C, d answers to it.
01:24:41:20 - 01:24:42:12
Allison Moon
All right.
01:24:42:13 - 01:24:42:23
Allison Moon
Right.
01:24:43:00 - 01:24:57:22
Allison Moon
Yeah. And again, like a lot of people, I mean, again, we want those answers. Scary world out there. And if I can just figure out how to get my woman off without having to think about it, then I'll be a better person. I understand the desire and and thing. Keep going.
01:24:58:00 - 01:25:00:23
Allison Moon
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
01:25:00:23 - 01:25:13:15
Dr. Nicole
And my undergrad was all in English literature before I went into psych, so I was always thinking about story and and all of that. And then studying narrative therapy, I just yeah, film is so important. You're just you're expanding people's consciousness.
01:25:13:21 - 01:25:14:14
Allison Moon
Yeah, yeah.
01:25:14:15 - 01:25:36:14
Dr. Nicole
Of what's possible. What does the you know, how how much space does the character take? What are they wearing? How do they move their body through the scene? Are they orgasm mine? If so, for how long? How's the breath like? There's just so much there, so much there that, yeah, isn't an exact answer, but absolutely allows you to start having those dreams that your partner is having.
01:25:36:16 - 01:25:36:21
Allison Moon
Like.
01:25:36:22 - 01:25:37:08
Dr. Nicole
Like, like.
01:25:37:09 - 01:25:38:09
Allison Moon
That is.
01:25:38:09 - 01:25:39:12
Dr. Nicole
So powerful.
01:25:39:12 - 01:25:40:12
Allison Moon
Yeah.
01:25:40:14 - 01:25:53:03
Dr. Nicole
So I can totally see how you would make that pivot into that space and be just, like, relishing in all of the possibilities and the the ability to, like, educate and reach people through that in such a different, such a different way.
01:25:53:05 - 01:25:53:23
Allison Moon
Yeah.
01:25:54:01 - 01:25:56:16
Allison Moon
Yeah, yeah.
01:25:56:18 - 01:26:04:15
Dr. Nicole
Okay. Alison, the closing question. What is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?
01:26:04:17 - 01:26:05:00
Allison Moon
Oh.
01:26:05:00 - 01:26:05:18
Allison Moon
God.
01:26:05:20 - 01:26:09:16
Allison Moon
I know I love it, I mean.
01:26:09:16 - 01:26:36:20
Allison Moon
Everything and nothing, right. Like, it's that's the whole freaking point. I mean, I mean, let's just say, actually not knowing is probably way more normal, right? Not not knowing until you smash up into it. And whether that's your orientation, whether that's desire, whether that's kink, whether that's a boundary, whether that's, you know, a passion, a need. I mean, it's it's amazing to me that, again, I'm 44 years old and I am still awakening to new things.
01:26:36:22 - 01:26:46:04
Allison Moon
And what a gift that is to have a brain that is so capable of expanding and changing. I love that, and.
01:26:46:05 - 01:26:48:12
Allison Moon
It's terrifying.
01:26:48:14 - 01:26:57:18
Allison Moon
And I just want yeah, I want people to know that, like that change and confusion and newness, even if you are 75 or 25, like.
01:26:57:20 - 01:26:58:06
Allison Moon
To.
01:26:58:07 - 01:27:25:10
Allison Moon
To live a life means to constantly be discovering yourself in new ways, and to give ourselves grace, to be clumsy as we learn and to give ourselves, you know, patience and love to to be again. This is what it is to be a human. And for me, the always having the gratitude of like I have had friends who have not made it this far and they never got to see their bodies age, they never got to find their sexualities shifting.
01:27:25:10 - 01:27:27:05
Allison Moon
And I mourn that.
01:27:27:07 - 01:27:28:09
Allison Moon
01:27:28:11 - 01:27:33:19
Allison Moon
And so it's, I think it would be a mistake to mourn my changing body.
01:27:33:21 - 01:27:34:09
Allison Moon
01:27:34:14 - 01:27:38:15
Allison Moon
Because I still have it. And what a gift that is.
01:27:38:17 - 01:27:39:02
Allison Moon
01:27:39:08 - 01:28:02:06
Allison Moon
And so I think wow I just like, literally just like evoked so many friends that I'm missing. Sorry. I'm starting to cry. But, like, I, I'm really grateful to have had that chance to, like, go through tough times with my spouse or to, you know, have my body not work the way I want it to be or to think I enter a space thinking that I wanted it, and then having to realize it's not for me anymore.
01:28:02:08 - 01:28:18:07
Allison Moon
I think there's such beauty in that. If we give ourselves permission to see the beauty. And I think that's the hardest part. So, like, to the degree we can to give ourselves permission to be these ever changing bodies, brains, hearts. Because it means that you're alive.
01:28:18:09 - 01:28:19:11
Allison Moon
Yeah, yeah.
01:28:19:12 - 01:28:22:10
Dr. Nicole
The tears of gratitude.
01:28:22:12 - 01:28:24:09
Allison Moon
Yeah. Well, being with you.
01:28:24:09 - 01:28:27:14
Dr. Nicole
In that emotion right now.
01:28:27:16 - 01:28:29:06
Allison Moon
Yeah. Yeah.
01:28:29:08 - 01:28:40:14
Dr. Nicole
The light in the dark. You don't know. You know. You can't have one without the other. You know the moments of change, the moments of difficulty. Right. That's the whole journey. I'm I'm excited to be at my deathbed still being like, oh.
01:28:40:15 - 01:28:43:22
Allison Moon
Shit. There's more. There is one more. I know.
01:28:44:04 - 01:28:47:22
Dr. Nicole
It changed again. And like, changes the only constant. Like, just when you get it.
01:28:48:04 - 01:28:48:22
Allison Moon
Oh, yeah. Oh.
01:28:48:23 - 01:28:49:20
Allison Moon
100%.
01:28:49:21 - 01:28:50:13
Allison Moon
Yeah.
01:28:50:15 - 01:28:51:12
Allison Moon
It's annoying.
01:28:51:12 - 01:28:55:20
Allison Moon
As fuck. I know right? I'm always like.
01:28:55:22 - 01:28:58:13
Allison Moon
I thought I had it. Yeah.
01:28:58:14 - 01:29:04:03
Dr. Nicole
But like you said. So then we flipped the frame, be like, oh, okay. Well, then every moment really is a joy.
01:29:04:05 - 01:29:04:12
Allison Moon
No.
01:29:04:12 - 01:29:08:07
Dr. Nicole
No, no matter what's going on in there, you can see it for just a moment. That it is.
01:29:08:09 - 01:29:13:14
Allison Moon
I had a very silly moment recently where I was went to Trader Joe's missing. Like I mentioned, I was.
01:29:13:16 - 01:29:17:19
Allison Moon
I was in the. Worst movie, all the chocolate. And I was talking to the checkout woman.
01:29:17:19 - 01:29:18:04
Allison Moon
About like.
01:29:18:05 - 01:29:19:12
Allison Moon
She's like, are you gonna have to do.
01:29:19:12 - 01:29:22:12
Allison Moon
Anything super fun this weekend? And I'm like, I am so bitchy right now.
01:29:22:14 - 01:29:22:22
Allison Moon
Like.
01:29:23:00 - 01:29:27:07
Allison Moon
I don't want to put any of my mood on anyone. And she like, she just like.
01:29:27:11 - 01:29:27:15
Allison Moon
Are you.
01:29:27:15 - 01:29:45:10
Allison Moon
Allergic to peanuts? I'm like, no. And she just grab some peanut butter cups and just plop them in my bag. And I'm like, this moment of grace, this moment of just two women seeing each other like it. Just it made my day. And it just was like, we can hold space for each other even when we're cranky bitches.
01:29:45:12 - 01:29:50:04
Allison Moon
So it's beautiful. So, yeah, those small moments really make things better.
01:29:50:06 - 01:29:51:23
Dr. Nicole
Absolutely. Chocolate is the answer.
01:29:52:03 - 01:29:53:07
Allison Moon
Chocolate. We have an answer.
01:29:53:07 - 01:29:54:00
Dr. Nicole
Yes. Friends in.
01:29:54:00 - 01:29:54:19
Allison Moon
The checkout?
01:29:54:23 - 01:30:00:12
Dr. Nicole
Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Alison, it was such a joy to have you on the phone.
01:30:00:13 - 01:30:02:06
Allison Moon
Doctor. Nicole, thank you so much for having me.
01:30:02:09 - 01:30:09:21
Dr. Nicole
Oh, yeah. It's such a joy. Such a joy. I'm sure everyone would love to know. Where can they find your books? Connect with you. All the things.
01:30:09:22 - 01:30:32:21
Allison Moon
Yeah. So my book is. I mean, you can buy my books anywhere, but. So I would always say support your local bookstore first. You can also buy it through girlsex101. Com. You can buy girlsex101 through that you can buy getting it through any bookstore. It was traditionally published, so you can certainly do that. You can find me on I'm kind of on social media still kind of on Instagram at Allied Moon al de Mon.
01:30:32:21 - 01:30:36:19
Allison Moon
So if you're curious about film, my film stuff and theater stuff, that's where I tend to post a lot of that.
01:30:37:00 - 01:30:42:02
Dr. Nicole
Awesome. Awesome. Well, I'll have all of that linked and the show notes below. And again, thank you. Allison, for coming. Thank you.
01:30:42:02 - 01:32:04:16
Allison Moon
Doctor Nicole. I appreciate it.
01:32:04:18 - 01:32:27:15
Dr. Nicole
Hey you do listener. I'm so glad that you're here and that you tuned in for another episode today. If you want to go way deeper on the subjects we explored with today's episode, I have created a full library of resources on pleasure, liberation, psychology, and my intention with creating all of that is to keep these resources free. And so they're all free to download.
01:32:27:17 - 01:32:48:19
Dr. Nicole
You can share them with your lovers, you can share them with your community. And I think that's a really important part to keep educational resources free for our community. So you can explore all of that at Modern Anarchy podcast.com. It's also linked in the show notes below. And please know that I am really excited to dive in with you all again next Wednesday.
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