262. Sex Under Fascism: Being An Ethical Slut with Michelle Hayes

[00:05:17] Michelle: I am Michelle Hayes I'm a Portlander, born and raised. I'm a polyamory content creator. Yeah. I don't know. I'm five years in and I don't know what to call it.

[00:05:28] Dr. Nicole: It's probably changed over the five years, right?

Mm-hmm.

[00:05:31] Michelle: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:32] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:05:33] Michelle: Yeah.

[00:05:34] Dr. Nicole: Well, it's such a joy to have you on the podcast again.

[00:05:37] Michelle: Yes. Thank you. Thank you for having me back. Mm-hmm.

[00:05:39] Dr. Nicole: It's good to be back. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Curious for me and the listeners, any big changes since the last couple of years we've checked in your, your love life, your pleasure, liberation.

What's been going on?

[00:05:53] Michelle: Yeah, I mean, I think probably biggest changes is that like I'm not quite as active with the Instagram anymore. Sure. You know, I think reevaluating relationships with social media, you know, that sort of thing. Huge. Um, especially since it's not something that I, uh, use to, uh, as my full-time job paying the bills.

So I got to a point where. In my day to day, I kept thinking, oh, how could I turn this into content? And then I just realized I didn't like that.

[00:06:23] Dr. Nicole: Right. Yeah.

[00:06:23] Michelle: Stepped away a lot. Also, I felt I was repeating myself a lot and,

[00:06:27] Dr. Nicole: um,

[00:06:28] Michelle: yeah. So I've been creating content. Yeah. I call myself a content creator, but I've been creating content a lot less.

But, uh, I have been enjoying that a lot more. Yeah.

[00:06:36] Dr. Nicole: Good. I'm glad you're finding the balance, right? It's a mm-hmm. When we checked in, we already said we wanted to talk about systems of oppression and how deep they are, right? Mm-hmm. And so to think about that capitalistic push, the hustle, the hustle, the hustle, the hustle, and instantly going into burnout, right?

Because we're trying to get out of these systems through that. I mean, that's mm-hmm. Also not a sustainable model, so I'm so glad that you found some sustainability. Yeah,

[00:07:00] Michelle: totally.

[00:07:01] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And any big changes in your personal life around the practices? Any big shifts around that?

[00:07:09] Michelle: I, not many huge shifts.

I think, God, I mean, it's, it's hard to think, I think the last time I was on here about. Was about two years ago. Mm-hmm. But, um, I think things have just been pretty nice and steady.

[00:07:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Good.

[00:07:23] Michelle: You know, I feel like there's been a natural, I think ebb and flow of people, but that just happens in life regardless of non-monogamy.

Right,

[00:07:31] Dr. Nicole: right, right.

[00:07:31] Michelle: Um, and how much time we spend with people. But yeah, it's been pretty stable. Nothing exciting or terrible. Uh,

[00:07:40] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[00:07:40] Michelle: Which I'm very, very grateful for.

[00:07:42] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Right. Stability is also really good, you know? 'cause it can be messy at the beginning. Right. Things are flying left and right.

I feel like I've gotten much more stable in my practice of non monogamy in the last two years. Mm-hmm. You know, there's like lessons every day, and so I feel like, uh, to hit a point where you're like, you know, it's pretty calm. That's great. It's also great.

[00:08:03] Michelle: Yeah. Love, love calm, love calm. Mm-hmm. Like especially in this like post thirties.

[00:08:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:08:10] Michelle: And, you know, post 30 life, it's just nice and boring is just, it's ugh, it's underrated.

[00:08:16] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. I hear you. I hear you.

[00:08:19] Michelle: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:20] Dr. Nicole: And I know you specifically wanted to talk about sex under fascism.

[00:08:25] Michelle: Oh God. Yeah.

[00:08:25] Dr. Nicole: That the word. Oh no. Oh, no. There, she, ah, exactly. I'm curious, what does that phrase mean to you?

Take up the full space. I'd love to hear where your, your head has been at on these topics.

[00:08:42] Michelle: Yeah. Something like talking about sex under fascism and under increasingly more authoritarian times. Um, I've actually been thinking about Gen ZA lot because like, at least online you'll hear. Uh, there's this impression that a lot of Gen Z there seems to be this return, not fully, but you get these inklings of this return to more of a purity culture mindset.

No. There's a bit more prudishness. Yeah. I mean, and this definitely isn't all of all of them.

[00:09:13] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:13] Michelle: But, um, I feel like I see it more than one would want. Right. Um, but then I read this article, I can't remember where it was from, where, you know, maybe millennials seem to have a bit more freedom and liberty around sex.

You know, we still had Roe versus Wade and, and things like that. But now, I mean, yeah, like Roe v. Wade was overturned, you know, things like abortion access and access to. Sexual health resources are dwindling, are getting, um, under attack. Right. And so it's like, no wonder, no wonder, um, this younger generation of sexually active people are being more hesitant to just be like, just fucking around all over the place.

[00:09:56] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:56] Michelle: Um, and so, yeah. So that was like a bias that I had to check for myself of like, oh, the kids are becoming more prude. It's like, no, there's, there are reasons, you know, it's not just, it doesn't come out of it like nowhere,

[00:10:08] Dr. Nicole: right?

[00:10:09] Michelle: Like with sex in the city and whatnot, you know, very millennial. Like, especially for, for women, it's like, oh, uh, sexual liberation will lead to, I don't know, greater happiness and greater freedom and all this and that and that.

But I think there was too much focus on individual sexual freedom and especially, you know, like something like sex in the City, which it's just a bunch of middle, upper middle class or whatever, white women.

[00:10:33] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:10:34] Michelle: Um, fucking around, um, that it's like. I think younger, younger generations are like, well, where did that lead us?

Mm. You know, we're, we're still here.

[00:10:45] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:10:45] Michelle: Um, yeah. So that's, I think that's a lot of, uh, what I've been thinking about.

[00:10:50] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I mean, broad City is much more relatable.

[00:10:55] Michelle: Broad city. Hell yeah.

[00:10:56] Dr. Nicole: You know, much more relatable in that sense. Mm-hmm. Uh, but yeah, I mean, it, it seems like it's increasingly polarized times, right?

Mm-hmm. So you're either really going in one camp or the other. Obviously there's a swath that we don't see in the middle, but, uh, under these systems you see people go really going deep into one, probably trying to find security, right. In one or the other camp. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and yeah, a lot of the research I had done for my dissertation was showing that the younger generations were increasingly interested in non-monogamous relationships.

Mm-hmm. It was this, you know, there's still not enough research on it. So it was a survey study from U gov, which is not, you know, we need more than one survey study from, you know, but. That's what we got. So, you know, that was at least saying that like younger generations, 40% of them were saying they want some form of open relating and then it kind of, you know, slowly, uh, got smaller and smaller as you went up in the age generation.

So it's interesting, there is a lot of sexual expansion that is happening culturally. Right. We're getting much more examples of non-monogamy. We're, uh, having TV shows for good, bad or otherwise of what they present, you know, around non-monogamy. Yes. That's a whole topic, you know? Um, and so it is fascinating, but we also see this rise in hyper like Yeah.

Uh, purity culture and all that sort of stuff too. And so it's, it's a really interesting time, um, as people are going deeper into this like restriction and expansion. And I'm really grateful for the internet for people like you, the ability to have this podcast. 'cause it makes this. Information accessible globally in a way that it truly wasn't previously.

You know, even thinking about queer culture, kink culture, the, the amount of years we had to really hide in the dark for protection and, and we're still having to hide, you know, at work in different situations, of course. Mm-hmm. And also, we're in such a time where we still can talk about these things. The more privilege you have, the more capacity you have to really push that edge.

And also, I, I really, I like to be optimistic despite the fascism. Like I do like to be optimistic that mm-hmm. There's been so much consciousness raising that the, the hell we're gonna continue to raise if it restricts us even more is gonna be vicious. I like, I like to have that, but

[00:13:10] Michelle: No, I know what you mean with the optimism where it's like, yeah, it's really hard to be optimistic when every day there's a new fucked up headline.

Um, but like the optimism. Kind of has to be there because what's, what's the alternative we just give in?

[00:13:24] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:13:25] Michelle: Um,

[00:13:25] Dr. Nicole: big days of despair. Big days of despair.

[00:13:29] Michelle: Um,

[00:13:30] Dr. Nicole: and, and also when you think about sexuality and eroticism, it comes from a place of play and being able to mm-hmm. Really explore different areas of yourself.

And if you're under constant attack, if you're stressed out about how you're gonna be able to feed yourself all these things, that's not the time to play. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So why would you be in your body in that way when there's so many things going on? Right. And so I think that that's another piece to have compassion for ourselves on those days where it feels quite literally impossible to tap into any sense of sexuality, which I definitely experienced long periods of where I'm like.

Well, I can't fucking play under all of this stuff. I've got shit to do. I've got activism work to do. Like, what, what is this? Mm-hmm. You know? And so I think that's also a huge part of what we're seeing is just truly the system's creating a container where, where play and pleasure doesn't even feel accessible.

[00:14:22] Michelle: Mm-hmm. It is like, it's, it's very, it's sad.

[00:14:26] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:14:27] Michelle: But it does feel like a, a privileged thing sometimes where it's like, oh, that, you know, that like, we can even sit here and just talk about like sex and pleasure and things like that. And, um, yeah, because sex is nice and physical touch is nice and stuff, but, you know, I can, I can, I guess live without sex, but I can't live without food.

Mm-hmm. Um, so, so yeah. And I, and I think there's a lot of that attitude that is, um, that we are seeing where sex and pleasure are being. Deprioritized out of necessity. Yeah.

[00:15:01] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And there are days where I do like have rituals with myself of self-love and self pleasuring where I'll still lay down.

And it's not like I'm necessarily quote unquote horny or turned on, but I know that by giving that time to my body, by being with my body in that way, I'm, I'm not that it's all about the orgasm, but when I do get to that state of orgasmic release, we're having all the neurochemicals going on, you're having that relaxed state of the body take over.

Right. And so I do think of that as part of the, like political work, right? Is mm-hmm. When there is so much tension, do I have time for myself to actually like create that release so that way I can show up better with my clients so I can show up better in these moments. Right. Um, so I do think there's a way like to treat it as a form of self-care and activism work too.

Um, and acknowledge that. It's not always gonna feel like what you wanna do in that moment, but it can be once you get there, you know, a bit more responsive.

[00:16:01] Michelle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I was thinking of a thing that's kind of related mm-hmm. Discussions around like hookup culture. Mm-hmm. And it's related in that I hear a sentiment from a, from a lot of women, and it's not, it is understandable why the sentiment exists, where it's like, why are we promoting hookup culture?

Hookup culture doesn't benefit women at all. And then it just makes me think of like, well, I do know how gendered and unbalanced hookup culture can be. Mm-hmm. Especially in more cis heteronormative ways of relating. But I'm like, damn, it just makes me sad thinking about women going to hook up and just like picking partners who don't focus on their pleasure at all.

[00:16:45] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:16:45] Michelle: Or you know, and it's, and it's something that is kind of taught to us not to advocate for ourselves. Where it's like, well, I guess he's not a muncher, so I, I, I guess I'll just have to go without being eaten out. And it's just the way that it is, you know, and you know that, that kind of thing. Or you know, I can't ask for what I want because that would be too needy and I would push away my situationship and you know, what would I be left with?

And yeah, so I think this, you know what you're talking about with like prioritizing care and your pleasure and that whole, you know, you gotta fill your cup to fill other people's cup type kind of thing. Yeah. So again, like sex under fascism and these views that aren't new, but that seemed to be cropping up a little bit more about sex and these little conservative talking heads.

Peeking out. It's worrisome. Very worrisome. Oh yeah.

[00:17:45] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. When you're talking about hookup culture, I'm curious if you could Yeah, I, I heard you start to, but paint more of a picture of what you mean with that. Mm-hmm. Because when I think about hookup culture, there is, you can see that in this like deep community polyamorous sense where we're all having this huge play party, we're all hooking up with each other, and we talk to each other about how we feel about it.

Mm-hmm. But I don't think that's what you're talking about. Right. And so I was like, Ooh, yeah, let's define that. Mm-hmm. Like, what does, what does that look like? What are the expectations under that sort of framework? Mm-hmm.

[00:18:19] Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. And I think God, uh, you know, when I, when I do think of mainstream hookup culture, yeah.

It's like, I don't know, a man and a woman who meet up at a bar, and then there's like, not much discussion. They're just like, like, okay, what I can touch your body with my body. And that's like the extent of it.

[00:18:35] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:36] Michelle: And then the sex just in my mind, just looks so. It's just so cis het, like

Yeah.

[00:18:43] Dr. Nicole: It's just

[00:18:43] Michelle: very much more male focused.

[00:18:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:18:46] Michelle: You know, I, I'm not imagining that much foreplay. Mm. There's, you know, it's, maybe it doesn't last too long, which like, it, you know, doesn't, things don't have to last very long to be pleasurable. But again, you know, where's the foreplay? Where's the aftercare?

[00:19:00] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:00] Michelle: Where's the communication, where's, where's the care at all?

Because I think a lot of people associate not caring Mm. Um, or having no affection at all or something during hookup culture. Like to have a one night stand and there's just no, no care at all. And, and I'm not saying that like that's always bad. I think some people who can enjoy that, but I think a lot of the people who critique hookup culture think that it's all about not having any care.

Mm. And I, again, I think part of it, you know, you know, being raised as a woman, not. Being taught to advocate for ourselves and that that's bad. Yeah. And that we can't expect more. Yeah. You know, like you were saying, where it's like, oh, there's more non-monogamous or polyamorous or kind of queer kind of hookup.

It's like the stereotype that we just communicate the shit out of all of our connections. Mm-hmm. You know, no matter how long or short. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's what I think of. And so when I, I feel like I live in this bubble and then Yeah. I read about other people's experiences and I'm like, oh shit, I forget.

[00:20:00] Dr. Nicole: Oh, right, right. Exactly.

[00:20:01] Michelle: Forget people are out there. Totally. Unfortunately, having bad sex, which isn't all their fault. Like I, again, I'm not blaming individuals for this necessarily 'cause just sex education and

[00:20:12] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:20:13] Michelle: Uh, you know, how we're taught to relate is just so bad that I'm like, damn people are out there having really bad sex.

That's so

[00:20:20] Dr. Nicole: sad. Right, right. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And I think it's important as you named the cshe mono normative traditional culture around this. 'cause when I think about kink culture, right? There is pickup play in kink culture. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, and when done with, you know. As lovingly as possible.

Um, as present as possible, right? There's a consent conversation beforehand. There's questions about limits. There is aftercare where you're talking about what that felt like and how that meant, like that is the antithesis of what you're talking about. And kink isn't always sexual, but it can be. Mm-hmm.

And so we're talking about like intense sexual experiences where it has all of that, right? Like mm-hmm. We have all of that. And then this other space, like the more Yeah. Mono normative, cis het traditional sex narrative where it's like, uh, usually the male is like stoic and whatever about it. Mm-hmm. You know, and obviously it goes both ways across all different genders.

Um, but it's so fascinating, right? How like that lack of care is almost like the attractive pinnacle of it all. Mm-hmm. Compared to like a deep. Deep, deep, sexually focused and erotically focused culture of kink. Mm-hmm. And there we are. Right? Like, it's kind of, that's crazy. Like the more you get, this is something I'd always talk about in the podcast, how I would go out to a traditional bar and get groped and felt up by mm-hmm.

A, a slew of men in uncomfortable experiences. Mm-hmm. And then I go to a play party and a kink place where I'm like actively fucking naked. And there's serious respect where people don't come up to me and touch me or make me feel uncomfortable, you know, generally speaking, like I've had worse experiences at a bar than a sex party, which is

[00:22:06] Michelle: mm-hmm.

[00:22:07] Dr. Nicole: Telling of something, right? Mm-hmm.

[00:22:09] Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. No, they. The subculture and microculture around, you know, kink and sex parties and those kinds of spaces. Like again, you know, I feel like in a bubble, like going to, you know, like going to, uh, one of the clubs here, uh, in Portland, like Sanctuary, which, uh, you know, is, has a, has a bit more queerness and like the other clubs here are a bit more geared toward like the traditional like swingers types.

Mm-hmm. Sure. Of clubs. But yeah, where it's like if someone touches you without consent, like you can just go to, um, a dungeon monitor or something immediately, or, or you know, you can say like, Hey, you know, no touching. If they do that again, go to a Dunt monitor and that person is just like kicked out. And I just wish, yeah.

I wish, I wish that were more normal, at least.

[00:22:58] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Right? Absolutely. And. You and I both know that not all those spaces are perfect too, right? Mm-hmm. So we have to be careful. Oh God, yeah. We can't be like, oh my God, we're so perfect over here. Like, there's mess across all of it too. No, no.

However, seems like a strong dichotomy. And it, it reminds me a lot of, um, the psychedelic work that I do with my clients and how we talk about harm reduction and how education can really reduce harm, right? Like, we need to know how to safely access drugs. People are gonna have sex, people are gonna do drugs.

How do we do that in a safe way that really enhances pleasure for everybody, right? Mm-hmm. And so we know that the more educated you are on drugs, the safer you can be with it, right? And so, thinking similarly about sex, right? The more educated you are on these things, the safer you're gonna be. But God forbid, God forbid, quite literally, right, that we talk about that.

No bad bad, it's gonna make 'em do it more, which is actually kind of funny. I really don't think that's the case. Uh, the Ashley, you know, the dating site, Ashley Medicine.

[00:24:04] Michelle: Oh God, yes.

[00:24:05] Dr. Nicole: Fascinating right. Battle thing. Fascinating. Mm-hmm.

[00:24:07] Michelle: Mm-hmm. Uh,

[00:24:07] Dr. Nicole: one of their highest demographics of users in the United States.

You wanna guess what state it is.

[00:24:14] Michelle: Hmm. Like Utah or, I don't know.

[00:24:16] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. It's fucking Utah.

[00:24:17] Michelle: Utah, yeah.

[00:24:20] Dr. Nicole: Whoa. Wow. Wow. You know? Mm-hmm. Don't do it. Mm-hmm. What happens? Mm-hmm. Wow. Fascinating. Mm-hmm. You know, fascinating.

[00:24:28] Michelle: Yep. Yep, yep. I mean, and then when like, PornHub releases, you know, their top searches by state and whatnot, and it's like,

[00:24:36] Dr. Nicole: what is it

[00:24:37] Michelle: A lot of, like repress, uh, more conservative leaning leading states have if things that, uh, you know, if they were out on the street, they would publicly kind of deny and everything, but Yeah.

Yeah. All this repression and making things taboo. Just God, I don't know, like the human animal just loves a taboo, right? Mm-hmm. It just like, mm-hmm. You salivate over a taboo.

[00:24:59] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Um,

[00:25:00] Michelle: yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[00:25:02] Dr. Nicole: Which part of me wonders. Yes. I think we, we like to push the boundaries. We want the taboo. And then this deeper thought in me wonders how much is that also a product of our timeline where something that is beautiful, a healthy, something that brings pleasure, right?

Sexuality, eroticism has been paired because of puritanical culture for so long. Right, that our classical conditioning around that pleasure is like, it's wrong and I want it, it's wrong and I want it, it's wrong. Like how much does that really intensify as we're saying? Right? The more in Utah you are, the stronger you have these desires.

Right? And so I would be curious about like a cross-cultural study that could look into fantasies. I remember. Um, watching Netflix Pleasure Principles, the principles of pleasure, I think is what it's called. Mm-hmm. And they had found that non-consensual fantasies were much higher in the United States than other countries around the world.

Mm. Right. And so that's fascinating. You gotta think about the cultural context, like what fascism, right? Like what sort of place are we living in that is creating the fantasies that when you look across cultures, it's actually not the same. And so I would be super curious about like less sexually repressed societies and granted white like colonizer mentality, it really took a number on the fucking globe.

So, oh God. Hard to like get into spaces where that isn't, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. But I am curious culturally across how that would look.

[00:26:28] Michelle: God, yeah. All the data that we could have if I know we weren't so like ed out by sex and stuff like that. Yeah. All the fascinating data we could have.

[00:26:37] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. And I think that's where it gets into some like really fun, nuanced conversations, right?

We're talking about systems. How do we hold an honoring for the things that naturally turn us on? Well, even maybe I won't use that word naturally, right? Because here's the conversation we're having, like, how do I hold space for the things that my body responds to and is turned on by? And also a critical lens of this, the system that I'm in, the water that I live in, that's pretty murky and not pretty like clear.

Like how, how do you hold that nuance of honoring your, your desires while also being critical about them?

[00:27:17] Michelle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, uh, I feel like this reminds me a lot of the, you know, conversation around like what preferences actually are.

[00:27:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:27:26] Michelle: Um, because a lot of people like to hide behind, oh, it's a preference.

And because I put the P word there, you cannot criticize me for my, my decisions. Um, but it's like, are you, are you not even curious about yourself? Do you. Not interrogate yourself at all. Mm-hmm. You not introspect. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. About why your preference is the way that it is.

[00:27:47] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:27:47] Michelle: And I think like it's so fascinating that that will be thrown in the face of like sters or something where it's like, oh, don't you interrogate why you like to be tied up and, and like throttled or whatever.

And it's like, actually a lot of cases do think about that a lot. Yeah. I talk about that and

[00:28:05] Dr. Nicole: like, do you want my essay? I have lots of s

[00:28:07] Michelle: Right, right. Here's the journal entry.

[00:28:10] Dr. Nicole: Exactly.

[00:28:10] Michelle: Five page journal entry where I

[00:28:12] Dr. Nicole: uhhuh

[00:28:12] Michelle: like introspect.

[00:28:13] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:28:14] Michelle: And, uh, here's the conversation that I had with my therapist about it.

[00:28:16] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. I was gonna say, I hold those space as a therapist. Totally.

[00:28:20] Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, especially, you know, kink and like when you get into edge play and things like that. And you know, like you were, you were saying where, you know, in the United States. Non-consensual situations are a bit higher, um, than the rest of the world.

Like Yeah. Edge play things like, uh, you know, consensual non-consent and things like that, which like I've engaged in too, and it's something that I've thought about. It's like, damn, like, yeah. Why, you know, why? And, um, and going back to, you know, what you were saying about, you know, sex and eroticism, a lot of it being about play.

[00:28:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:28:54] Michelle: Um, rather than just like explicit sex.

[00:28:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:57] Michelle: Yeah. It's, it's so interesting. What you can explore in these safe, well negotiated containers.

[00:29:05] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:06] Michelle: Just what an outlet it can be. Oh

[00:29:07] Dr. Nicole: yeah. Oh yeah,

[00:29:09] Michelle: yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:29:09] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:10] Michelle: Yeah.

[00:29:10] Dr. Nicole: Like I try to explain to my clients who have these hot fantasies, I'll use one of my, like ones when I was first coming into non monogamy, uh, I, I really wanted my metamore to be a part of a ling scene where she had to watch me fuck our shared partner.

Now we can know, I'm just stepping into non monogamy, the jealous parts of me, the parts of me that want to assert power. Right? Mm. Like all of that is right there. Mm-hmm. And so the, the beauty when I share with my clients is that sometimes we can have really hot scenes like that. We can feel how close they are to these tender parts of our psyche.

And what we don't want is for that to come out unconsciously, where I'm making one-up comments, and when we're all sharing space, or I'm trying to do this or that, now it's a very different thing to sit down with my metamor and say, Hey, I'm noticing that the jealous parts of me really have this fantasy that I want to play with.

Mm-hmm. I'm curious if you'd be on board to do that, and then you give this moment of empowerment and choice, right. Where mm-hmm. They can say yes or no. And if they say no, like. That's totally great. Thank you for telling me. They say yes. Now we get to play with parts of my psyche, their psyche that everyone's on board to explore the edge of.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then that's some really powerful, like metaphorically psychedelic spaces where like, I don't know what's on the other side of that door. I see the door right there of my consciousness. What happens when I cross the line? Mm-hmm. And I think that's so much, uh, a better use of that energy and capacity than being unconscious about it.

And like when I'm in a conversation with her being like, well, I do this, what do you do? You know, like trying to one up in these other unconscious ways, like

[00:30:50] Michelle: mm-hmm.

[00:30:51] Dr. Nicole: It's the intentionality, the consciousness of playing with it, and then the consent that makes it radically different.

[00:30:57] Michelle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. The, the heights that we can go to just mm-hmm.

Communicating with one another, like interrogating and then communicating with one another. And then like the consent piece and just how. Important and crucial. It is. And not just as a, like Okay. I guess, or,

[00:31:12] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[00:31:12] Michelle: Yeah. And I'm like, I guess we won't, or, or whatever, but just like really respecting another person and their autonomy.

Yeah. Like,

[00:31:18] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[00:31:19] Michelle: That's so hot. You know? I love respecting a person's autonomy, even if I don't get like what I want, you know, if my little, it doesn't get what it wants. Sure. In the moment

[00:31:29] Dr. Nicole: I hear you. I hear you. Yeah, I hear you.

[00:31:31] Michelle: Damn. Is it hard to respect other people's autonomy?

[00:31:34] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Because it's a, it's a reflection of how much you see their selfhood, how much you see their power.

Mm-hmm. How much you see them as a full human being, not just a, uh, way to fulfill your desires or an object to some psychodynamic theory gets into like just a pure object to fulfill what you want, right? Mm-hmm. Like when you freely see someone's full capacity and you sit with that. And you start to think about in your own head the millions of thoughts we have in a day.

The feeling to be, have the depth of all of that. And then you remember, wow, this person that I'm sitting across from has all of that too. And I'm gonna respect that and everything that they're saying and sharing. Yeah, of course. That's hot. You really like feel the power of both beings there, right? Mm-hmm.

And it seems like that's really at the core of the culture that we want to foster as pleasure activist, right? Rather than the, you know, bar culture, right? Like that is not respecting another person's, uh, full being and power and what they need. Right? Like that. I feel like that's the antithesis of it all is like, do you respect this person?

[00:32:43] Michelle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And right. I think that's the thing missing from a lot of hookup cultures, you know, like the care and the respect. And it's like, well, no wonder you hate hookup culture. And, and yes, like I think, you know, mainstream cshe, mono normative hookup culture, uh, could be better. It could be better.

Um,

[00:33:01] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[00:33:02] Michelle: Um, but yeah, it's like, God, no wonder exactly because you're having exactly bad sex. You've had bad experiences, of course, because it's kind of set up. Uh, for you to have bad experiences.

[00:33:13] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:33:13] Michelle: But it doesn't have to be that way.

[00:33:14] Dr. Nicole: Right. Right.

[00:33:16] Michelle: You could expect more.

[00:33:17] Dr. Nicole: I know, I know. Which is hard. If you're not in that culture though, you're like, what are you talking?

Mm-hmm. Like, I'm out here and it's bad, Michelle, like it's bad. You know, like, you know, but then once you get to that, you know, queer party where there's 30 people all who know each other hang out repeatedly and fuck, you know, like across multiple dynamics, you're like, oh, wow, I had no idea this existed.

Right. So mm-hmm. It's such a, a paradigm shift once you step into that, which is also why I've loved having this podcast space where I get to talk to people like you. Right. For the people who have never heard any of this culture, right. To like, hear, repeat a guest say like, no, this exists, this exists. It's, I hope it's an invitation for people to really want more and expect more and trust that it's out there.

[00:34:00] Michelle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it can be, and it could, uh, and it can be scariest again, especially in these times like where. I mean, people are literally being policed more and yeah, it's just a lot more conservative all around. Um, which isn't to say that there aren't strongholds and whatnot, like living in, living in the Portland area.

Um, I do feel fortunate that, you know, we do have a bit of a buffer who knows how thick that buffer is Yeah. And how long it'll last. But for now, it's like we still have access to Planned Parenthood.

[00:34:34] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:34:34] Michelle: You know, people can still get, you know, abortions if they, if they need to without having to go across state lines and Right.

Uh, things like that, like, uh, gender affirming care, um, is, uh, you know, relatively more accessible here than a lot of places. Um, so it's, that's something I'm very grateful for. But again, it's like you can't, we can't rely. On that. We can't rely on that lasting forever. So yeah. We've gotta, we've gotta stay vigilant and Yeah.

It's a little hard to, it's a little hard to stay in your body and experience pleasure when we have to stay vigilant like that.

[00:35:08] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And Chicago still has a lot of access to those resources right now. And also ICE is on the streets everywhere out here. Yeah. It's horrific. Yeah.

Horrific. And you're constantly hearing helicopters over our city. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Something like that. For months, I've, I like to take a moment to like, take a breath and hope that it'll be better when this episode gets released. Right. Like, to, like hope. But like, I don't know. And yeah, I have a lot of privilege walking around as a white woman.

I'm not scared of being taken off the streets. Right. But I'm seeing my neighbors, I'm seeing it is horrific. And so like mm-hmm. In what world are you supposed to be playing when that's happening? Right. It is.

[00:35:50] Michelle: Yeah. When we got like modern Gestapo, like

[00:35:52] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:35:53] Michelle: You know? Yeah. Cosplaying little soldiers with their little, uh, skull bandanas and yeah.

Just, uh, fucked up.

[00:36:02] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. I don't even know how to transition outta that.

[00:36:08] Michelle: I know.

[00:36:09] Dr. Nicole: It's damn know what I'm, what are

[00:36:10] Michelle: Well, we reached the Gestapo part. What?

[00:36:12] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. It's just,

[00:36:13] Michelle: yeah.

[00:36:14] Dr. Nicole: Time to go, go do something else. Yeah. Like, I, uh, um, I guess part of that too is like, I as a pleasure activist, right?

Like, I have to trust also that I'm pulling my thread of the equation, you know what I mean? Like, I, like when I'm doing like the cl uh, the listeners cannot see my face right now. I'm like rubbing my head trying to like, sit with this, like, you know, like every

[00:36:40] Michelle: self-soothing,

[00:36:40] Dr. Nicole: yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm trying to self-sooth 'cause it's like mm-hmm.

You know, so many of us have to go to jobs. We're under the systems, right? We have to go to the jobs to get healthcare, to be able to like, be relatively functioning in this society. So you have to keep playing the game and you see these things going on, right? And so it, it brings up so much cognitive dissonance, so much numbing that you have to kind of sit through and you're, you know, you're working your eight hour day, you're scrolling, you see these things, and then you have to numb and go back to like a sales call for a, a big corporate business if that's what you're working in.

And like the, the cognitive dissonance that you have to hold mm-hmm. Between caring for humanity and continuing to support billionaires is like, fuck insane, right? And so, mm-hmm. I, I try to think when I'm like working with my clients about like embodiment and pleasure, liberation and supporting queer, supporting people in more expansive that this is a part of the, the work.

But it is, it's a lot to hold in our current time and like feel any sense of pleasure with.

[00:37:38] Michelle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, I don't, uh, I think a lot of why so many people are feeling so much angst and, and like myself included, uh, definitely is we definitely weren't built to have so many opinions in so much news and information into our brains, into our little brains, uh, at once like this.

Yeah. Where it's like scrolling on TikTok in the span of 30 minutes, you'll hear 100 different, um, viewpoints on, you know, dozens of different things. And I think we're shortcircuiting our brains in search of, you know, a crumb of dopamine or, or whatnot. Totally. And a crumb of pleasure or some satisfaction or some meaning because we're just such.

Meaning hungry, um, animals.

[00:38:28] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:38:29] Michelle: We need a narrative. We need things to fit. Um, and because there's so many different pieces, it's so hard for our brains to, um, consolidate all of that into one clean

[00:38:38] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:38:38] Michelle: Cultural narrative. So yeah, I think that's, that's a lot of, I think, umbrella reasons for our current, current angst and no idea how we're gonna fix that or anything.

Yeah. Are we gonna evolve through that? It, yeah. But yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, we definitely, you know, weren't made to scroll through Twitter and, and wade through all of this discourse all the time.

[00:39:05] Dr. Nicole: No. And the algorithms are wild, right? You'll be like,

[00:39:07] Michelle: oh yeah.

[00:39:08] Dr. Nicole: It's like, you know, like cat video. Cat video.

Genocide. Genocide. Cat video. Cat video. Yes. Ice, ice, ice, ice. Cats. But cats though, right? Mm-hmm. At least mine is like lots of cats, you know? But it's like, but it's like how I'm like, my brain is like going back and forth between these experiences that are like, like, yeah, that's not how we're meant to.

That's not how we're meant to experience life, right? Mm-hmm. And so I do think that that, that creates a level of numbing that impacts all of us. Mm-hmm. Right? When you see all of this, like, to be like, these are things that actively we should all be stopping the whole fucking system and protesting tomorrow for, but there's so much threat of, you know, again, your bodily safety.

If you don't work under this system, they're taking away marketplace access to certain healthcare plans and then tripling premiums.

[00:39:57] Michelle: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:58] Dr. Nicole: For everybody else. So you're telling me now, really to get healthcare, I gotta play the fucking system under these bigger companies.

[00:40:05] Michelle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:40:05] Dr. Nicole: As an independent person, I don't fucking have an employer who gives me a healthcare plan that I'm one of those people that's gonna have to pay thousands of dollars a month to have healthcare access.

It's insane.

[00:40:15] Michelle: Yeah. Greatest country in the world. Yeah,

[00:40:18] Dr. Nicole: right. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

[00:40:20] Michelle: There's no other way. No one's ever done it differently. There's no other way.

[00:40:24] Dr. Nicole: It's a laugh to make, make

[00:40:25] Michelle: America great. Haven't you heard

[00:40:29] Dr. Nicole: I, this is where I like cross-cultural studies. I think this is a huge part of getting out of the, the, um, like horse slanders of our time.

The black hole of thinking in America is great. Or thinking that this is the only way. The second you kind of, again, thank God for the internet, right? Like you zoom out a little bit, you see something else, you're like, oh wow, there are other healthcare systems. That are provided, right? Mm-hmm. There are other systems where women, as you were noting, like the experience of women, you know, and sexuality like other places provide a year of maternity leave.

[00:41:01] Michelle: Oh God.

[00:41:02] Dr. Nicole: And America, it's not even required. Mm-hmm. Youre lucky if you get six weeks.

[00:41:08] Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And like people, uh, the countries that provide maternity leave to like, both parents. Like what, what,

[00:41:17] Dr. Nicole: yeah. Little in a polycule, right? Like,

[00:41:19] Michelle: really? Oh, oh my God. Yeah. What a

[00:41:20] Dr. Nicole: dream would that be, right? Like all,

[00:41:22] Michelle: all

[00:41:22] Dr. Nicole: four.

All three. Yeah.

[00:41:24] Michelle: Yeah. Like I, you know, I am the kind of, uh, I'm a person who knows that I won't ever have children of my own.

[00:41:30] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:30] Michelle: Yeah. But yeah, I'd be happy to be like auntie and, you know, help around and, and things like that. Like Yeah. You know, the whole taking a village thing. Mm-hmm.

[00:41:38] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Uh, I'm curious for you getting to that space of that full confidence, was there ever any backlash from your family or upbringing around that? Some people, you know, have really great parents were like, yeah, totally support your freedom. And I think other people really have to push back against family to say, I'm not gonna have another child.

[00:41:57] Michelle: Sure. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah. With regard to children, fortunately my mother has a little bit of a fear. You know, growing older. And so I think the prospect of having a grandchild would make her a grandma. Mm. And I don't think she loves that idea. Mm. Um, but also I don't, it's like she's never, she's like, even when I was growing up, she's never pushed this idea of like, oh, I can't wait to have grandkids and, and things like that.

You know, she's always said like, oh, I'm so happy to have have you kids and whatnot. But no, she's fortunately, she's never pressured me. My dad on the other hand.

[00:42:30] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah. Okay. Fascinating. Yeah.

[00:42:32] Michelle: Like he does, he is a person who I do sincerely believe, really loves having children. Um, there are some parents out there who I'm like, why do you even have children?

This all feels honestly very selfish. I'll never tell you that because I won't have any backing on this and everyone will jump down my throat for saying that. But there are some parents out there where it's damn. Your child feels like an ornament. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. But my dad is someone who genuinely loves to, you know, be around kids and raise kids, and I think he likes to pass on, you know, wisdom and, and whatnot.

Mm-hmm. Um, and so, uh, so whenever I go up to visit him, he's always like, because I'm the eldest too. Mm. And he's always like, oh, when, when am I gonna have grandkids or something? Oh. Especially when, like a cousin of mine who is the same age, like had a little baby in the past year, who's, who's very, very cute.

Mm. And like he did, he did that, that passive aggressive thing of like, oh, Michelle, you're falling behind. Yeah. And my cousin like, you know, to her credit, she's like, no, everyone's got their own timeline too, so.

[00:43:39] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

[00:43:41] Michelle: Totally. Yeah. Um, but I mean, you know, dealing with my dad sometimes it's like, you know, sometimes my dad's just gonna say shit and that's just what it, what it is.

And, you know, he's never gonna be angry at me really. Or. Like, try to have some very serious talk and try to force me to have children. Uh, I'm like, you're gonna have to wait for, you know, you're gonna have to wait for my other sister to do that. 'cause Yeah, because I'm not, I'm not gonna do that. Um, but yeah, so it's not, uh, I, I don't feel like huge, huge pressure.

Yeah. Yeah.

[00:44:13] Dr. Nicole: Good.

[00:44:13] Michelle: Ultimately, fortunately, my parents are just like, you know, whatever. Whatever float chip boat. Really good. Like what? Uh, with, with regard to the child thing? Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:44:22] Dr. Nicole: That's great. 'cause some parents will do the whole, well, your life will be meaning

[00:44:25] Michelle: God

[00:44:25] Dr. Nicole: meaningless without that. How would've, what, what, what?

[00:44:29] Michelle: Like, that's a hell of a lot of projection there. Which reveals a lot about my upbringing, Dan. Like,

[00:44:34] Dr. Nicole: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, my, my mom would say stuff like that. I kept trying to tell her like, mom, I'm becoming a doctor. Stop. Like, I run this podcast. It's got lots of people. Don't worry. I'm doing something else.

You know?

[00:44:45] Michelle: Yeah. This is meaningless.

[00:44:46] Dr. Nicole: And what, what exactly, exactly. Yeah. I do think about wanting to have a kid one day and it, it is like a beautiful dream. I'm so, you know, studying like relationships across all types, platonic, familial, sexual, right? Mm-hmm. Um, but relationships, human to human connections, the narratives, the meaning making the attachment, like the idea of having a child is such a beautiful one.

I just know that if I do that mm-hmm. I'm certainly not doing it in a nuclear family.

[00:45:12] Michelle: No.

[00:45:12] Dr. Nicole: Certainly not doing that. All my PQ has to be signed up. Signed up, that is a four minimum conversation. Like, like, okay, we're, we're sharing this load, right. Because I'm not doing this by myself. No,

[00:45:27] Michelle: no, no, no. That's like, I, I have two cats and that's enough.

Yeah. Sometimes, sometimes they kind of drive me up the wall and I'm like, God, thank God y'all are cute.

[00:45:37] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. Exactly

[00:45:38] Michelle: right. Because like I, you know, I've, I've done the introspection and I know that I'm a bit too selfish to mm-hmm. You know, give, uh, I know I'm too selfish and not patient enough to give my children what I would want them to have.

[00:45:55] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:45:56] Michelle: Like, I'm not nurturing enough in that way. And again, especially. If it's not in a village setting.

[00:46:03] Dr. Nicole: Mm, yeah, exactly. Right. You

[00:46:03] Michelle: know, like if it's just me or just me and one other person, even if just me one other person and one other person that's just, yeah. Oh, that's wild. Yeah. That's not enough. Yeah.

Yeah. And again, you know, back to the selfishness thing, it just doesn't sound fun to me. I mean, like yeah. Babies are cute and whatnot, and like Yeah. I'm the, a part of it too is that I'm the eldest of, of technically five, like one full sister.

[00:46:24] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:25] Michelle: You know, quote unquote full sister and three, um, you know, quote unquote half siblings.

So I often joke I have like two and a half siblings. Mm-hmm. But like I've, I've been through that when, uh, you know, uh, there's a three year difference between me and my closest sister. And then. There's like a 14 year difference and then an 18-year-old difference, so

[00:46:42] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:46:42] Michelle: As a teenager I was like, little mom.

Mm. And so I've Oh,

[00:46:45] Dr. Nicole: so

[00:46:45] Michelle: you've done that? I've experienced plenty. Like I was the free daycare during the summers when school was off for me. Yeah. Um, so that my parents didn't have to pay for daycare. Sure. Like, yeah. I'd be like, whenever parents left for work, they would drop the little, you know, my sisters off in my room.

[00:47:00] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:47:00] Michelle: Wow. And then I would like, do breakfast and lunch, you know, enrichment and watch tv or go to the park, changing diaper. Mm-hmm. Like, so I've, you've done your time. I've done enough of it where it's like, I know what I'm talking about. Mm-hmm. I'm not just some person who's never been around a child, like Mm, mm-hmm.

I've helped raise my little sisters. So, I know it's not for me, but

[00:47:21] Dr. Nicole: yes,

[00:47:22] Michelle: I'd be a great aunt. I'm like, I'm big sister slash aunt material. Yes. That's

what I was built for.

[00:47:27] Dr. Nicole: Spring over some of the cute little socks. Take a cute picture. Oh, you know what I mean?

[00:47:32] Michelle: Own diaper, little sprinkle little like this here and there.

[00:47:36] Dr. Nicole: Here's the home cooked meal. Good luck. Have fun. Right?

[00:47:39] Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. Call me if you ever are wanting to do anything stupid, I'll Yeah. Come over and either try to talk you out of it or supervise, you know? Exactly.

[00:47:47] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. Yeah. Totally.

[00:47:49] Michelle: You don't, you don't wanna tell your par like our parents about it. Like, all right, call me.

Like that's, that's my role. Mm-hmm.

[00:47:55] Dr. Nicole: Right. And there's another narrative too of it, which I, I think is like community based care, right? When we think about it mm-hmm. From a climate change perspective, and the amount of bodies we already have on this planet and the resources that we, in this current lifestyle are using.

Not always. Mm-hmm. But like in this current lifestyle. So there, I feel like there's also like a selfless like narrative of spinning, of like, I'm choosing to not have kids because I really want to be conscious of the earth and the resources. Mm-hmm. And also the other children that are already being born.

Like, I wanna hold space for them. You know, like I do think there's that narrative too.

[00:48:31] Michelle: There is. And like, you know, uh, certain days I'll think of that, but at the, on the other hand, it's like, God, that pales in comparison to what like Coca-Cola is doing, or Google is doing it really, like another child is a drop in the bucket with regard to climate change.

[00:48:46] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:48:46] Michelle: Compared to what corporations are, are doing. And

[00:48:50] Dr. Nicole: I know

[00:48:50] Michelle: poisoning the planet just for, you know, slightly bigger profit margins or something.

[00:48:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I mean, I'm curious what my microplastic levels are, you know?

[00:48:59] Michelle: Oh God. Yeah. We're all just a little bit plastic. The whole old George Carlin bit where it's like, you know, maybe the point of humans was to just.

Provide plastic for the Earth, and it's just the earth plus plastic.

[00:49:13] Dr. Nicole: No, no, no, no, no,

[00:49:15] Michelle: no, no,

[00:49:15] Dr. Nicole: no.

[00:49:17] Michelle: Yeah.

[00:49:17] Dr. Nicole: Eventually we'll learn how we will have to adapt, whether it's thousands of, thousands of years after human, but the earth will have to adapt. How to break that shit down like some way, somehow, probably long after us.

[00:49:27] Michelle: I feel like I've heard about little bacteria, or That's what I was wondering. Yeah, that's what

[00:49:31] Dr. Nicole: I was,

[00:49:31] Michelle: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I know those exist, not on the scale in which it's like super, super helpful right now, but the earth is already, uh, adapting. Yeah. Right?

[00:49:41] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And this is a part of my lens from the, the clinical psychology that I think is so essential, right?

When we have these different diagnoses. I mean, well, first off, I think being depressed right now. It's a pretty reasonable response when you look at the world Oh, yeah. In America. So let's first start there. Mm-hmm. Right. If we start with that premise, it's big house of cards to really undo, but even things like Yeah.

Like postpartum depression, right. Stuff like that. Mm-hmm. It's like you, we put so much on the individual, like, you know, like they're broken. She's broken. Like, ah, you know, like not looking at the wider world and the context. And I really do think it's a reflection of that hyper individualistic focus.

'cause again, the field of psychology is what, like 200 years old from white people. Mm-hmm. And you know, it's like very, like, it's one lens. And there's been more like perspectives on the, the human psyche and spiritual traditions that has extended way before psychology. But we get the psych lens, right?

It's like one person, you're broken, you're, you need this drug, here we go. Mm-hmm. And it like, often doesn't take that systems lens. Um, there's a book, I, I haven't read it yet, but I, I listen to, um, upstream. Do you ever listen to that podcast? No,

[00:50:53] Michelle: no.

[00:50:53] Dr. Nicole: I do love upstream. They make great content on like, um, economics, um, okay.

From, um, lots of different like leftist perspectives and, um, there was one called, I think it's Women have Better Sex Under Socialism, I think is what it's called. It's a book title. Forgive me for the Wrong Okay, wrong there. But the part of the thought is essentially like that, right? Like when you're better paid for your labor, when you have extended, uh, you know, maternal leave, all these things like you are having better sex in a society mm-hmm.

That takes more care of you, right? This is an essential part of the whole equation.

[00:51:29] Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. Oh my God. Yeah. If you're not stressed out by work and like all these, uh, I think all these governments that are freaked out about like, oh my god, the dropping, dropping birth rates and stuff like that. And like in the United States, there's definitely a tinge of like the replacement theory and like white supremacy behind that too.

[00:51:45] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah, for sure.

[00:51:45] Michelle: Um, but it's like, well, if you want people to like, have sex more and have like babies more, why don't you? Right. We need better healthcare. Um, we need people to actually have the time and energy to have sex and have babies and, you know, all, all the, all these different things that the government can provide.

And it's, it's not like it's just some pipe dream. It's not like, oh, we don't, we just don't have the money. It's like, God, we have so much money. We're the

[00:52:12] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah.

[00:52:12] Michelle: Most well-resourced country in, in the world. Probably in the history of the world so far. Like, but we can't, yeah. We can't, uh, provide a bit of, you know, maternity leave or increased healthcare and, and this and that.

Yeah. If you want more babies. There are ways to facilitate having more babies. Um, it's, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Not, not that I'm like, you know, super pro that, but just, I don't know all the dissonance and all of the hypocrisy and, and honestly all the stupidity of it. It just drives me up the wall. Right.

[00:52:45] Dr. Nicole: Well, because Michelle, you're supposed to pull yourself up by your bootstraps.

Come on. Right. Boots. Just stand up. Just stand up.

[00:52:54] Michelle: God, I switched to slip on shoes. Oh no. Oh no. What am I supposed to do?

[00:53:02] Dr. Nicole: Wild, right? Like, it's wild how deep that psyche goes. I will. Um, uh, like so I think you remember I came from purity culture, right? In this like whole conservative background with my family. So it's always fascinating. Um, family votes for Trump, both times, sort of family energy. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, and so. I remember talking to my sister who she had a, a preemie baby.

It was a like seven months small little thing, emergency C-section, horrific experience. And so part of her time in the hospital with the baby was pretty extensive medical bills. Mm. And so I remember that year talking to her, you know, during the holidays and asking like, how is that? She's like, it's horrific.

Like it's so expensive. It's so, so intense to have a baby. Like, you know, me and my husband are working and I'm a nurse. You know, he has a ba very basic job and it's like really hard to afford these medical bills for the baby. And I said, well, I know when the next president who offers universal healthcare, who you're gonna be voting for, and you wanna know what her response was.

She was like, well, no, I don't think we need that. I think I just need a better job. Oh,

[00:54:13] Michelle: no,

[00:54:13] Dr. Nicole: exactly

[00:54:14] Michelle: right, Lucy. The propaganda is so deep. Just the talent's so deep.

[00:54:18] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:54:19] Michelle: Oh, that's so like when I hear that, like, yes, I feel a little angry, but like, I mostly feel

[00:54:23] Dr. Nicole: sad, sad, sad, sad. Because that's a lack of awareness.

You know? Like that's a pure lack of awareness. And whatever the hell message around universal healthcare, like what is the image you have that that's gonna bring for you? Like, do you see loss in that? Like, if we funnel money here, is there loss? And yet we know, like when we better source in our community and put resources in it, we see less crime, we see less, all this other stuff, right?

Mm-hmm. And so it's like,

[00:54:48] Michelle: yeah,

[00:54:48] Dr. Nicole: it's just, it is heartbreaking. I think that's the right response, which can be much harder to tap into when you see quote unquote the other side and what they're doing, right? Mm-hmm. Like there's also very valid responses of, of anger and frustration and judgment and all of that too.

And then when it's, you know, my sister's sitting there saying that you're like. Fuck, you just don't see what is possible in all their other worlds.

[00:55:13] Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. And again, just, yeah, just how deep the propaganda goes of this. Like hyper individualism of like, yeah, you only fail because you failed. Um, it doesn't matter what environmental factors there are.

It doesn't matter what variables there are. It's all you and I, and you know, I didn't have it super deep. There was definitely elements of that mm-hmm. In there, um, in my upbringing. Yeah, for sure. Um, and I still definitely have remnants of that, but yeah, just how, again, just how deep those claws have sunk into to people and, um, God, especially like, you know, as we're, as we're talking where it's like the whole.

Government shutdown down and then like turning off snap benefits and things like that. And people like also the propaganda against, like poverty. 'cause it's all connected to like this idea that, oh, if you're impoverished, it's all your fault or you deserved it, or you just need to, you know, do X, Y, and Z and be better.

You just need to, you just need to walk into a shop with your resume and then you'll get employed. Right? Yeah.

[00:56:17] Dr. Nicole: Grandma. Yeah.

[00:56:17] Michelle: Um, so, so out of touch. Um, so out of touch often. So violently hateful. Yeah.

Um, but, but yeah, just this, uh, this tonic of hyper individualism that we've been fed since we were little.

Uh, God, it's, yeah. It's a menace, right? It's so insidious. It's a menace and yeah, oftentimes it makes me angry, but. More often. It just makes me really sad. Yeah. That it's so pervasive.

[00:56:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:56:50] Michelle: Yeah. Like especially, you know, especially with like the SNAP benefits, I think a lot of it is like this, this idea, I think this idea where it's like if someone doesn't deserve it

[00:56:59] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:57:00] Michelle: This whole deserving thing, right? Like whether or not you deserve it. Mm. And there's all that, um, discourse around like, oh, we need to go back to basics with like food, uh, food stamps. Like you can only get like bread and milk and stuff and you can't, God forbid you buy like a cookie, um, or like a little Debbie or something like that.

Um, like it should only just be for sustenance, you know, not for joy.

[00:57:23] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:57:24] Michelle: And yeah, I, I, I think we've been taught that this whole zero sum thing where it's like, if someone's getting something, that means something's being taken away from us. Right? Right. So if like some, if someone is getting something that they don't deserve, you know, quote unquote don't deserve, that means.

We're also getting something that we're, we're also not getting something that we do deserve.

[00:57:45] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:57:45] Michelle: And so I think that is just inex inextricably tied together to all this and all this thinking and all that propaganda and God, yeah. If we were to loosen that grip and if we were to see like the actual people, you know, stealing from us and like, you know, how things like wage left is

[00:58:03] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:58:04] Michelle: The most prominent form of theft and stuff. Instead of that person trying to get like baby formula from Walmart.

[00:58:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:58:10] Michelle: Um,

[00:58:11] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:58:11] Michelle: Like, ugh. Ugh.

[00:58:13] Dr. Nicole: I know.

[00:58:14] Michelle: I saw some mad for days.

[00:58:15] Dr. Nicole: No, it was good. We need that conversation. And that's, I, I was scrolling last night in the doom scrolling and uh, I did see some art that was like, um, if you see someone stealing from a major corporation.

No, you didn't. Right. Like Yeah, no you didn't. Yeah, exactly. Mm-hmm. I loved one comment someone had, which was like, I have these really intense eye issues where I just can't see when people steal for basic necessities. I really clearly can see when people steal for jewelry, which is kind of hitting on some of the things, but like when Right, right.

Pleasures. But like uhhuh, like jewelry and these other things, but food and the basics, diapers. Like I just, there's something so difficult. I've tried fixing my glasses, but I just can't see it, you know, like,

[00:58:57] Michelle: yeah, I should maybe go visit the opt optometrist, but you know, that's expensive. So I'm not, I'm not gonna, it's not really a problem.

[00:59:04] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Let's put it back onto the system. Sorry. It's just too expensive to fix my glasses. I didn't see that. Yeah. Uh, it's so, yeah.

[00:59:10] Michelle: Vision isn't included, so,

[00:59:11] Dr. Nicole: exactly. It's not, that's an additional Yes. Dental, vision. Fuck that. That is. My non-American listeners are like, what are they talking about?

[00:59:19] Michelle: What?

[00:59:19] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:59:20] Michelle: The horrors

[00:59:22] Dr. Nicole: truly, it's an extra premium and it really doesn't cover much. That's kind of the hard

[00:59:26] Michelle: God. Yeah. Like I've had, like fortunately my vision has not changed, um, very much, but hopefully, yeah. But like, yeah, I've had these glasses since 2000. I think I got these in 2017 or 18.

[00:59:38] Dr. Nicole: Or like even the basics of like getting your, um, wisdom teeth removed and they won't pay for sedation.

Oh God. They don't pay for sedation. That's like an additional like.

[00:59:46] Michelle: Yeah.

[00:59:46] Dr. Nicole: Like, what year is it? What?

[00:59:48] Michelle: It's a horror movie.

[00:59:49] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Like mm-hmm. What year? It, they actually gotta pull that out by themselves. We really can't use something. Mm. We can't find some way to subsidize a little bit of that. No. Mm-hmm. Okay.

Mm-hmm. But yeah, that, that conversation around the, the snap benefits and feeling of loss, it's like, it's so wild because that, that same conversation, I want to come in and say, how do you feel about 49% of the global wealth being owned by the 1%? Like, how does that one feel? It's like, what, what? Mm-hmm. What?

[01:00:19] Michelle: Yeah. And again, though, it's like the propaganda where it's like, oh, they deserved it. They worked hard. Just Yeah. This, all this romanticizing of billionaires and these leaders of industry, it's like, oh, they, they worked hard and Yeah, sure. Maybe some of them worked hard a bit.

[01:00:33] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:00:33] Michelle: But like, do they really deserve, I, I can't remember what the ratio is.

Like, you know, a thousand, 10,000 times the wage of like the, the lowest paid worker, like a person who. Um, like all these people who are essential to making this business run, right? Where it's like, sure, you have this one guy who had a good idea, but like without, you know, people contributing their labor.

What's, what's the use of a good idea?

[01:00:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:58] Michelle: Um, so yeah. Uh,

[01:01:01] Dr. Nicole: yeah,

[01:01:02] Michelle: yeah.

[01:01:02] Dr. Nicole: Make the money and funnel it back into the community, right? Like, if that's really what you're doing, like why don't we funnel it back into the community and take care of one and make a better, like, what is that right? Rather than hoarding it for selfish, um, exploration.

[01:01:14] Michelle: Yeah. It'll trickle down. It'll trickle down anytime now.

[01:01:16] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. Anytime. It's like, I see this image of like dead bones, like anytime now. Anytime. You know, like

[01:01:22] Michelle: anytime.

[01:01:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Literally. Uh, I did like, um, in my grad school training, there was one class where we were talking about this and the metaphor that they used was, um, like a, a track race.

And how your privilege puts you at different starting points. Mm. And so, mm-hmm. Sure. Yeah. That rich person, you know, maybe they were starting like three-fourths of the head of the race and before the, you know, you're at the start line, they're three-fourths around the track, and so Yeah. Mm-hmm. They did run like, let's not discredit their one fourth of the race they had to run.

Mm-hmm. But they started at a pretty significantly different starting point, right? Mm-hmm. And so that in itself is like, I think. Hopefully helps people to have a better metaphor where it's like, yeah, it's not that they didn't do work, but they started at such a different space that it's not even a race.

Like this is not a fair experience, especially when you think about the years of oppression and the different intersecting identities and how that creates access to privilege and generational wealth. And I was listening to another podcast, I can't remember what it was, but it was, um, getting into all this and one of the arguments that people have for rich people is like, oh, they took so much risk.

Look at how much risk they took. Look at how much risk they took. Mm-hmm. And I really appreciated the guest who was saying they really don't take that much risk. 'cause they actually have so much capital that they can like. Gamble with the people who are showing up every day for jobs that pay for them to be able to live that day, they're actually risking a fuck ton.

Because if they don't perform well that day at work, they could absolutely lose their job that day. And so every day is a gamble for them in a way that the rich is like, oh yeah, millions of dollars. But like they have a fund, like mm-hmm. So we look at the number and it's like, oh, it's a million. They've, well, okay, well then they made a billion.

Well, they risked a mil. Okay. You know, but it's like

[01:03:10] Michelle: mm-hmm.

[01:03:11] Dr. Nicole: It's really not looking at the actual contextual position that those people are in. And like seeing how, like, when you don't have the stability every day, you're risking that not,

[01:03:22] Michelle: yeah. I mean, right. How many of us are just, how many paychecks away from like, potentially being homeless, you know, not being able to afford rent and whatnot.

Yeah. But no, it's, it's poor people. That's the problem. It's poor people, that's all. Don't look, don't look at the billionaires behind the curtain, you know?

[01:03:39] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:03:39] Michelle: Yeah. It's. Just making us squabble amongst ourselves when we could be working together and being like, Hey, actually we're comrades, we're friends.

Uh mm-hmm. It actually sucks for both of us. Mm-hmm. And it could be better for both of us if we were to direct our ire in the correct places.

[01:03:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I saw another art piece. It was, um, this like big fish, right. Suggestive of the systems, and then it was eating all these tiny little fish and they were trying to run away.

Mm-hmm. And then it said, um, in the art piece, don't panic, organize. And then it was all the tiny fish chasing the big fish. Mm-hmm. I was like, fuck Yeah. That was something that like, yeah. You know, I'm having one of those cry days where I'm just like, fucking this is, yeah. Oh my God. And then you see that and you're like, you're, you're right.

You're right. I put it on my photo frame. I have like a photo frame that goes through and I see it every time. I'm like, right. Organize, organize, organize. And um. That's the only way we're gonna get out of this. 'cause we don't have the resources to combat them at that level of scale. That's insane.

[01:04:42] Michelle: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. But yeah, I mean, um, you know, like even in like the Portland area

[01:04:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:04:48] Michelle: Uh, when, you know, SNAP benefits, uh, for fortunately, like as of today as we're talking, they were restored here in Oregon, um, fully. But so many people came together. Like so many individuals, so many like businesses, so many, um, orgs came together and like, Hey, all right, we're gonna do as much as we can to feed people.

Mm-hmm. Here are like a bunch of resources. Yeah. Um, here are ways to help, here are ways to, you know, either donate money mm-hmm. Or other resources or whatever logistics that we need. Or like, Hey, we need like volunteer cooks or volunteer delivery drivers. And like a lot of people really stepped up good.

And that was like a thing where it's like, you know, okay, this more of this

[01:05:27] Dr. Nicole: gives you hope.

[01:05:27] Michelle: Like, yes, they reinstated snap, but like this shouldn't stop. Like we can, you know, God, it's, you know, it doesn't fix everything, but like how powerful we can be when we do pull what resources we have together. Um, and, you know, and, and organize and um, actually use social media for good for once and

[01:05:51] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. A little bit of hope and optimism there. And like you said, like how many people are one paycheck away from not being able to pay for things. I mean, I think another big piece of that is the medical, like healthcare system. Mm-hmm. Like, it's insane.

[01:06:07] Michelle: Mm-hmm.

[01:06:09] Dr. Nicole: It's insane.

[01:06:09] Michelle: Yeah. And how many, yeah, how many people put off going to the hospital because they know that the bill is going to be high, which worsens their health conditions, which makes it the bill like.

Extremely high when they have to go to the hospital because it's become life threatening or, or something. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:06:28] Dr. Nicole: I feel like people our age always joke, don't call the ambulance, call the Uber, like Uber,

[01:06:31] Michelle: Uber. Right.

[01:06:33] Dr. Nicole: You know, like if I can't, don't call the am No. The Uber, unless you really think I'm not breathing and dying immediately is an Uber.

Mm-hmm. You know, which is like mm-hmm.

[01:06:42] Michelle: What,

[01:06:43] Dr. Nicole: you know,

[01:06:43] Michelle: like what I had. Yeah. I had a roommate where, um, he had, uh, he had diabetes and didn't realize how like diary it could get. And there was one time where he was having, um, where his, uh, what, what is it? Where his, uh, glucose, blood sugar, glucose was super low glucose.

Yeah. And so he was like in pain and Oh no. And my other roommate and I were like, oh my God. Like, I don't think either of us had seen this before. Yeah. So like, we call the ambulance and stuff and they, you know, helped get his blood sugar back and, and whatnot. But yeah, when he was like conscious, um, and was able to talk later, he's like, thank you guys.

Next time, you know, try getting me some orange juice or something first or whatnot. And

[01:07:27] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[01:07:27] Michelle: Um, you know, maybe like a peanut butter sandwich Gosh. And stuff where it's like, I mean, and, and yeah, the next time it did happen, I was able to do that.

[01:07:35] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah. Totally.

[01:07:36] Michelle: Um, but I'm like, damn. And I also know Yeah.

It's just, ugh, the, the state of things, the state of healthcare is just fucking atrocious. Yeah. Something really has gotta give. Mm-hmm.

[01:07:46] Dr. Nicole: Totally. Totally. I've been trying to, um, heal from bv, which has been quite

[01:07:51] Michelle: Oh. Yeah.

[01:07:52] Dr. Nicole: A journey. And every like vagina owning friend that I have is like, oh, I've been there, I've been there.

And I'm like, this is insane. This is insane. Mm-hmm. Two rounds of antibiotics and it still doesn't go, what is this? This is wild.

[01:08:06] Michelle: What is going on?

[01:08:07] Dr. Nicole: Oh my God. I went to the urgent care and the bill came out to be like $750 for a 15 minute assessment. Like, I swear to God, a 15 minute assessment with a pa, 15 minutes.

And they're like, you wanna do a self swab or we'll do the exam. And I was like, I mean, I'll do a self swab, probably cheaper. Right. So I literally 15 minutes self swabbed myself, put it in the tube and sent it off. Mm-hmm. For a very, be like basic like, uh, BV test and yeast, $750 just to find out

[01:08:38] Michelle: God

[01:08:39] Dr. Nicole: and insurance covered about like,

[01:08:40] Michelle: and you still have the problem.

Yeah,

[01:08:41] Dr. Nicole: yeah, yeah.

[01:08:44] Michelle: Seven $50 just to still have the issue. Uh, totally.

[01:08:48] Dr. Nicole: Totally.

[01:08:49] Michelle: Yeah.

[01:08:49] Dr. Nicole: And the, the wild part too is like. Thank God for Instagram content creators. I really gotta reach out to the one that I, that I saw on there. She, uh, God, I can't remember who it was, but I can see her face. I don't remember the handle, you know.

Um, she had just came out of an appointment with her doctor, where she was like, you guys, I've been struggling with bv. This has been horrible. And I'm just learning research now that apparently my doctor was saying that people with penises also need to be treated. Mm. And that's completely new information.

And that if you have reoccurring BV and it keeps coming back, part of the problem might be that the person you're sleeping with. No, and you can also get it from just, you can get BV from taking a bath and the pH being messed up. Unfortunately, I'm a bath lover, so that I haven't taken any baths recently, but it might be part of the problem.

Oh. Um, but like, yeah, the person with a penis also needs to get treated. And so I saw that video and I was like, look, looking at my partner, I was like, I think we need to go check this out. So I go to the doctors and they're like, yeah, the research is coming out. We don't, we, we've heard of it. We don't really know what the next protocol is.

So like, have your partner figure that out and like, get the drugs. And so we were like, what doctor do we go to that even knows about this?

[01:10:03] Michelle: Mm-hmm.

[01:10:05] Dr. Nicole: You know?

[01:10:05] Michelle: And it was, and that's so wild that that like again, where it's just like all of this information that comes out so recently where it's like, we should have known this the whole time actually, you know?

And if we were to think about it for more than two seconds Yeah. Actually it probably doesn't just originate in the vagina if we're having like penis in the vagina, sex like. Maybe the penis could be a variable in this too. Hmm.

[01:10:29] Dr. Nicole: I guess do what, what? Like how slow are we? I mean, just as slow to create like, uh, like birth control for penises.

Right? Like that, just as slow as that. Right. Like, God forbid, you know, is it's like mm-hmm. No, our Venus could not be the problem. The science directors. No. No. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It was so funny that week too, that I was doing that. Um, I get supervision from Jessica Fern for like my polyamorous cases, which has been so joyous.

And also we were talking about like, uh, sexual health and stuff, and she's like, have you heard the new research about bv? I was like, oh, Jessica.

[01:11:02] Michelle: Oh, have you heard the good news?

[01:11:04] Dr. Nicole: I was like, I've heard, and I'm figuring it. Out. I figuring it out. 'cause nothing has been inside me in a month. And it is,

oh my God. Uh, I say that because you know, you're talking about sex utter fascism. Like, I am scared to go back to the doctor to know what it's gonna cost me to find out if the medication this round worked. Mm-hmm. And that's a huge piece of this is like, look at this system where there's, as you're pointing to, there's no information or critical thought around how maybe the penis could also be a fucking carrier of this sort of stuff or cause or of this, right?

Mm-hmm. Uh, and here I am trying to get healthcare and it's costing this amount of money, and now I'm genuinely scared to go back to find out again, which produces more stress, which contributes to like that sex under fascism, like mm-hmm. It's not fun.

[01:11:57] Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. And God, like, just to get, to get treated or even just like STI testing, STI testing isn't accessible everywhere.

Like

[01:12:04] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:12:05] Michelle: I'm fortunate. Like in Portland, there's, um, pivot at like Prism Health.

[01:12:09] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:12:09] Michelle: Offers, um, like free STI screenings, like HIV, syphilis, gonorrhea, chlamydia, um, like primarily for the queer community, but like, you know, that you go in there, they're not gonna like, interrogate you about that. Okay. Um, and it's like, you don't even need insurance and stuff and, but yeah.

That's not available everywhere, you know? Yeah. And even the, um, even the Multnomah County STI screening, I think it's still like 50 bucks.

[01:12:34] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:12:34] Michelle: Um, which is like a lot more accessible than, um, alternatives, but still 50 bucks to get tested, you know, regularly. That that can be a lot. Right. So, yeah. It, it makes having more like safer sex, just so much harder.

Totally. So I don't, um. I understand when people, you know, are going through their celibacy stage right now.

[01:12:56] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Nothing's got inside me. You know, like the, and like yeast and BV aren't even STIs. So those aren't even on panels. No. And like, um, some STIs aren't even on panels too, like HSV one, like usually not on a panel.

Yeah. Like just B twos not on a panel. Right. So it's like, damn, it's hard to be an ethical slut out here. Like it's, it's, it's toughs done.

[01:13:15] Michelle: Yeah. To be a slut. It's so hard. Wo is me.

[01:13:20] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, that's true. Yeah. The pleasure. But I'm, I'm curious for you, like, how, how do you work through, um, like how often. How do you work through all that stuff in your polyamorous groups?

It's something that my network is still figuring out over here. I'm curious. Mm-hmm. Any insight perspective?

[01:13:36] Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. I think by now, you know, earlier talking about how it's like pretty stable. Uh, everyone that I have sex with has like regular testing. Yeah. It, it comes to the point where like, I don't even, it doesn't even come up because I just know that they regularly get tested.

[01:13:49] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:13:50] Michelle: And like, and like on Instagram, you know, even though I don't post a lot anymore, every three months, I still do post about like, oh, hey, got my SDI test. Yeah. You just trying to normalize it a little bit. That's good. And also there's some people who are like, oh, actually whenever you post, it's the reminder for me too.

Good.

[01:14:03] Dr. Nicole: Good. We love that. We love that. We love that.

[01:14:06] Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. Where it's like, all right, we're like on the same testing schedule.

[01:14:09] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:14:09] Michelle: Um, but. Yeah. So I think, you know, by this point I've, you know, am regularly having sex with people who, you know, are pretty, uh, pretty on top of it. Um, so I don't feel like I have to worry about it.

Yeah. Very much.

[01:14:22] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. That's good.

[01:14:23] Michelle: You know, with new partners, like, uh, a new person that I'm seeing, we've been on a few dates with like, just on of his own accord. He was like, oh yeah, I got tested and just, he screenshotted me his test results and stuff like that. And, um, so yeah, I think a lot of it is like picking people who, uh, where it's already pretty normalized, I think is very helpful.

Uh, picking people who like, you know. If they're willing, if, if they have questions, but they're willing, that's fine. But people who are like, oh, I don't know about that. It's like, I just don't, that's, that's already Oh, that's not, yeah, that's nothing. That's nothing lighter than a yellow flag to me. Yeah.

[01:14:58] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's, that's the easy lane of that. 'cause other, yeah,

[01:15:02] Michelle: yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that's, I think that's just how it is in my, my cool right now.

[01:15:11] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And when, so similar, right? Yes. Three months similar. What about the people that are partners are fucking, like, do, like mm-hmm.

I just get overwhelmed by the variables of variables of variables, you know, where it's like,

[01:15:30] Michelle: yeah.

[01:15:31] Dr. Nicole: Uh, my, my heart breaks that oral sex. We don't have enough research to know what transmission rates look like. Mm. And part of that isn't necessarily even a lack of funding, but. My understanding of it is a lack of ability to isolate the variable.

There's very few people who only have oral sex, and so we have like less testing pools to really track that. Most people are exploring lots of different types, and so we mm-hmm. It's really hard to get, just like, could you imagine research study clinical data? It's like, must have only had oral sex in the last six months.

Like, like, I don't know. Oh, group that is, you know, like it, and how can

[01:16:07] Michelle: you even remember? Sometimes I just

[01:16:09] Dr. Nicole: like, it's probably like a purity culture. Like, you know, like the people who are like, well, it's not real sex, so, so we do this. Mm-hmm. Maybe we don't do any kind, you know, like, that was me in the back.

Mm-hmm. So I would've been actually a great test candidate for that.

[01:16:21] Michelle: Mm-hmm.

[01:16:22] Dr. Nicole: Um, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, we just don't know. So like, my partners that, like, you know, one of my partners has a penis, we use condoms, so there's a lot of protection there, but any of the oral capacities, right, like you can get STIs through the mouth, right.

And it can live in the mouth. And so it's like. Gosh, like sure he's having protected sex with this person, but they're doing oral. Right. At what point do you say, like, I keep trying to think about making a flow chart or something of like, you know, like I, I just want some worksheet mm-hmm. To like, for my like anxious brain to put it into like if you get new partner and they have this type of like, do we just just take a deep breath and like breathe through that risk or like I just,

[01:17:03] Michelle: Hmm.

I mean, I think, I think like we can do the best that we can with safer sex practices, but I think. My, uh, the way I approach it is like, if I have sex and I have a lot of sex with people who have a lot of sex with other people

[01:17:16] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[01:17:17] Michelle: It might happen. Yeah. And like I've had, I think I've had chlamydia twice.

Gonorrhea once. Yeah. And like those are annoying and like flexible.

[01:17:24] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:17:24] Michelle: Uh, but yeah, some, well like a week, week and a half of antibiotics, again annoying, but, you know, not the end of the world. And, you know, there, there is a concern of like, you know, the sup gonorrhea and stuff like that. Mm. And uh, these STIs that are becoming more resistant to antibiotics, which is concerning.

But again, we do what we can we

[01:17:42] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:17:43] Michelle: Um, you know, we communicate more. Yeah. We make sure that we have partners who are, you know, good about communicating that and who are good about vetting their partners. Mm-hmm. And so there's no 100, like, I mean, the only 100% way to avoid any of this is to just not have sex at all.

Um, but like. So, yeah. My thing is like, it might happen. Yeah. And fortunately I think the kind of sex that I have and the kind of sex that most of my partners have, like, it's not as high risk for things like HIV or, or syphilis. Mm-hmm. Which again, it isn't like a 0% thing.

[01:18:14] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:18:15] Michelle: But like, you know, if I just have to look out for chlamydia and gonorrhea, it's like, again, not ideal.

Not the best thing.

[01:18:24] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:18:24] Michelle: But it's treatable. It's treatable. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so it's not the end of the world. Um, and if something like that happens, then it's like, oh, well, uh, you know, let let partners know. And like the first time that happened when I got chlamydia, it felt embarrassing. Yeah. Where it's like, oh my God, I got chlamydia and I have to tell people.

Yeah. So the three times that I've gotten STI though I've always been the one to like notify people, which like pisses me off a little bit. 'cause I'm like, there's someone out there

[01:18:48] Dr. Nicole: who gave it to me that doesn't even know

[01:18:50] Michelle: who gave it to me

[01:18:50] Dr. Nicole: or knows

[01:18:51] Michelle: anything who either doesn't know. Right, yeah. Exactly.

Who either doesn't know or like knew. And like, it's not doing their due diligence. Gosh. And so fortunately, I feel like I'm in a spot where I've weeded those people out.

[01:19:03] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. '

[01:19:04] Michelle: cause yeah, I haven't, I haven't had one in like, oh, maybe like three years I think was the last time I had, uh, either chlamydia or gonorrhea.

[01:19:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:19:11] Michelle: But, but yeah, just knowing that having a lot of sex, it, it happens. It's not the end of the world.

[01:19:18] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:19:18] Michelle: Mm-hmm.

[01:19:19] Dr. Nicole: I appreciate you normalizing that. I know there's so many people who would be terrified

[01:19:24] Michelle: mm-hmm.

[01:19:24] Dr. Nicole: To share that with their partners.

[01:19:26] Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. But like, after, after the first time, it's like, oh, okay.

Yeah. And it's like you people appreciate knowing too. Mm-hmm. And, um, and, uh. And, and, and I, I, you know, I never say this to be like, oh, st you don't have to worry about them at all. Course, it's like, yes. You know? That's why you get tested and that's why you have a regular, you know, process and good communication about it and stuff like that.

Mm-hmm. It is important. It absolutely is important.

[01:19:52] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah.

[01:19:52] Michelle: But it's not the end of the world that we're taught, like God in our terrible sex ed and like middle school and high school and whatnot, where it's like the whole mean girls thing. It's like, if you have sex, you will die. It's, it's not that. It's not that.

[01:20:06] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. And even with HIV now with prep, there's so much and antivirals, even if you do have it. Mm-hmm. Right. The quality of life has gotten so much better in the last, even like a hundred years. Mm-hmm. It's huge development. Yeah. It's no longer.

[01:20:18] Michelle: Sentence. Yeah.

[01:20:19] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. And so I think that's so important to talk about.

'cause again, it's a part of the like purity culture. Like purity. Like, oh, I'm pure. Mm-hmm. I got my test back, I, and I'm clean.

[01:20:30] Michelle: Yeah. Clean o insidious language. Yeah.

[01:20:36] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And I feel like it rolls off the tongue because it's so much of the culture. Like, oh, I got my STI test, I'm clean. Right?

It's like, mm-hmm. What are you, what is the opposite?

[01:20:47] Michelle: Right? Oh, you dirty, dirty. STI rated slut. You heathen.

[01:20:55] Dr. Nicole: Oh, mm-hmm. Yeah. It's heartbreaking. And we get other viruses, other infections all the time. Mm-hmm. In other areas of our lives. Yeah. And we don't have the same sort of, you know, there's just so much.

There's so much emotional weight around sexuality. There's so much emotional weight around the genitals especially. Mm-hmm. And like people really, like, what does it mean that I'm this person that had this sort of experience that you're human in a world full of germs. Like what a concept. Mm-hmm. Right?

Like

[01:21:22] Michelle: mm-hmm.

[01:21:23] Dr. Nicole: What a concept.

[01:21:25] Michelle: Yeah. Like yeah. If you get a cold or the flu, is that a moral failing or something? Like, I know some people like to twist it where it's like it was your choice to bump genitals with that person, and so that's what you got and that's what you deserve. And it's like, gosh, just their germs.

It happens. It, yeah.

[01:21:38] Dr. Nicole: Gosh, gosh, gosh. Yeah. You shook hands with that person. You got a cold. You, you deserve that fucking coldy dirt

[01:21:44] Michelle: teeth. You dirty hands shaking even. Yeah, exactly.

[01:21:47] Dr. Nicole: Right? Like, it's like, do you see how your logic doesn't apply across all paradigms, sir? Like, no, you dare

[01:21:51] Michelle: to touch another person,

[01:21:53] Dr. Nicole: like

[01:21:53] Michelle: disgusting.

[01:21:55] Dr. Nicole: Uh, I'm curious for you, Michelle, what is the biggest. Pleasure, liberation insight that you've unlocked across all these years for yourself, if you were to like sit and be with that. Mm-hmm. What's the thing you've unlocked that you wish you could tell your younger self? Who's, who's just starting the journey?

[01:22:14] Michelle: Yeah. I think, I think a lot of it is, um, you know, especially growing up and it, it still exists in my brain today of Oh yeah. Like seeking validation from people of like, the people who will wanna be around you will be around you and the people who don't wanna be around you will go away and you might be sad about it, but it's like, oh, but.

They didn't wanna be around me, then why would I want them? You know, like

[01:22:38] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[01:22:39] Michelle: If they, if they thought I was a little too weird or a little too awkward, or a little too fat, or a little too this or that or that, like, well then why would I want them? Um, and it definitely helps to have that perspective now where like, I have like a, a nice molecule where it's like, yeah, oh, these, these people like me.

And if I'm like having a day where I'm like feeling sorry for myself or something, and it's like, oh, I have people who will like more than happy to fuck me at any time. Like, and not, not that it's all about sex, right? But it's just like, I like sex who are more than happy to like, yeah. Like cuddle or have movie nights or talk or Yeah.

You know, help or this and that and that. So, you know, it, it helps to have that evidence now versus when I was like an awkward, insecure teenager. Um, I'm a. You know, still an awkward and insecure adult, but slightly less so. Yeah. And surrounded by, surrounded by like really nice, really nice cool people. Yeah.

People who like to cook for me or like, you know, do things for me or do things with me. And, um, yeah. So I think that's, that's the thing where it's just like, God just chasing the validation of people who just couldn't give less of a shit about you. Like it's something as someone who like, is still on the more avoidant side, you know, if we're talking about like attachment theory.

[01:23:50] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[01:23:50] Michelle: Um, sometimes I see, you know, 'cause it, it's villainized so much online. Um, but sometimes I'm like, you know. Is it avoidance or are they just not that into you? Yeah.

[01:24:02] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:24:02] Michelle: Like are you just, are you trying to force these, like villainous avoidant people to love you? What? Or are you just trying to force someone who's just not that into you to be more into you?

Mm. And like, yes. Yes. You know, there are liars out there and there are manipulators out there and stuff like that, but that's not exclusive to avoidance.

[01:24:19] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:24:20] Michelle: There are assholes everywhere. Yeah. And like sometimes you need to read the signs that someone's not into you enough and you need to be like, you know what?

I deserve more and I deserve better. Yeah. And like, regardless, you know, the person may or may not be a villain. The person may just be like some, uh, like a person who needs to work through some shit and I don't need to deal with that shit. So I'm gonna pick someone else I, yeah. Anyway, that was like a mini rant from

[01:24:46] Dr. Nicole: No, no, it's so good.

[01:24:46] Michelle: But anyway, seeking, seeking validation where we don't have to seek validation. Yeah. Like I, I know there are certain environments and certain, um, ways in which, you know, people do that for survival and I, you know, I can't fully knock that and stuff like that. So like Yeah. But it, you know, under better conditions, like Yeah.

If you don't have to seek validation with that person who's not, you know, giving you the care and

[01:25:10] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[01:25:10] Michelle: And, and stuff that you need, then there are other people.

[01:25:13] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:25:14] Michelle: There are, there are so many other people.

[01:25:15] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I'm curious too, if your work with content creation has played into that.

'cause it has a lot for me. Right. Which is, wow, I'm really putting myself out here. Uh, I just talked about all the things we talked about in this. Wow. And it's like, well, if people don't like it, they can leave. You know, like the people who do like it stay. And that's. That's how this works. I'm just gonna keep going.

Right? Like, it almost like mm-hmm. Really makes you confront that every day when you're looking at the numbers going like, well, why did that one go down and this one went up and you could lose your mind.

[01:25:46] Michelle: Mm-hmm. Oh yeah. That

[01:25:47] Dr. Nicole: in the numbers,

[01:25:48] Michelle: that's another reason where it's like, I, I'm, I'm honestly too sensitive of a person to be like, I feel that that big of a content creator.

I'm like, I'm, I'm too, I'm too sensitive. I, uh, honestly, yeah, I can try to, you know, build a thicker skin, you know, liberally use the block button. And like, you know, also sometimes people leave comments that are just like, so ridiculous. Yes. That I can't even be offended by it, where it's like, just die and you should have been aborted.

And I'm like, where the, what, what the heck is this? Um, so, so, yeah. Like, you know, de developing those boundaries. Um, has definitely been helpful, but at the same time, yeah, I'm, I'm way too soft for Yeah, I hear you. Like the mega, like, there's some like online acquaintances where like they get so much, so much, of course.

Unnecessary hate and I'm like, oh my God. Yeah. I can't, I can't do this. Like you would need such, um. So much stronger boundaries around this and so much a stronger sense of self. Yeah,

[01:26:42] Dr. Nicole: yeah,

[01:26:43] Michelle: yeah. Than honestly, than that I have, uh, at this time in my life.

[01:26:46] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah.

[01:26:47] Michelle: But, um, but yeah, and that's also why like in the past couple years I've posted more to just stories than feed because it's just your followers mm-hmm.

That, um mm-hmm. You know, see your stories. Yeah. So I feel like I am talking to more of the people who like more actively want to Good. Feed my stuff.

[01:27:04] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:27:04] Michelle: Um, 'cause yeah, sometimes you post things on the feed and then you have people who are like, you don't even follow me. Like, what?

[01:27:09] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly.

How'd you get here?

[01:27:11] Michelle: How'd you get here? You're commenting on this. Do you know how algorithms work? You comment on this, you're gonna see more shit. Shit like this more. Yeah,

[01:27:16] Dr. Nicole: exactly.

[01:27:17] Michelle: Like I thanks for boosting the post, I guess. I dunno, maybe I'll keep your comment up. If it's too egregious, I'll fucking delete it and, and block it.

Like whatever. No,

[01:27:26] Dr. Nicole: I hear you. I hear you.

[01:27:27] Michelle: But yeah,

[01:27:28] Dr. Nicole: I hear you on that. The one star reveal I'll get on the podcast. I'm like, no. Like, it's like what? Yeah,

[01:27:34] Michelle: it's, what did I do wrong?

[01:27:35] Dr. Nicole: What can I do better? Exactly. Exactly. You can't think like that, especially when like all the reviews are like five star. Five star, one.

You're like, wow, what is,

[01:27:42] Michelle: what did this one person

[01:27:43] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly.

[01:27:44] Michelle: Exactly what you said. What is this one flaw?

[01:27:45] Dr. Nicole: I am a whore

[01:27:45] Michelle: that I will have to hyperfocus on. Yeah, exactly. Oh my God. Maybe I am star. Just a dirty whore with nothing to, nothing to offer. Oh my God, they're right.

[01:27:53] Dr. Nicole: Totally.

[01:27:54] Michelle: Totally. Spiral, spiral, spiral.

[01:27:55] Dr. Nicole: Exactly, exactly.

[01:27:58] Michelle: But yeah, the validation thing, like

[01:27:59] Dr. Nicole: yeah,

[01:28:00] Michelle: as social animals, like we were meant to, yes, get validation to a degree, but mm-hmm. You know, from thousands and thousands of strangers.

[01:28:09] Dr. Nicole: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Well, as you've spoken to thousands of strangers today, you know, like luckily

mm-hmm.

[01:28:17] Dr. Nicole: Podcasts still don't have a lot of comments. Some platforms are introducing that, so, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We will change in the future, but I'm curious, as we come towards the end of our time, if there's anything else that you're wanting to share with all those thousands of people who are tuning in.

[01:28:31] Michelle: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Oh God. I mean, I feel like we could talk forever, but

[01:28:35] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:28:37] Michelle: Um, I think a lot of, like a, a through line that we kind of touched on is like focusing like the hyper individualism aspect. Yeah. Versus, you know, focusing on systems. It's just like, you know, I still do this too, where it's like I focus too much on individuals and like, oh God, this individual did that and that and that, and then making the broad blanket assumptions and generalizations.

But it's like, you know what, this person is doing this thing. And like, yes, they have responsibility for that, but like, damn, look at the environment, you know? Mm-hmm. Look at the propaganda that we're fed. Look at, um, you know. Like living in a still largely cis head, mono normative society. Yeah. You know, in the United States, definitely still strongly white supremacists.

Yeah. Um, undertones everywhere, um, in, in almost all aspects of industry in our lives. Yeah. Like, yeah. No wonder people act certain ways. No wonder people act out in certain ways.

[01:29:33] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:29:34] Michelle: Um, so yeah. You know, the more that we can recognize these systems that have like their boots on our necks

[01:29:43] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[01:29:43] Michelle: The more we can actually like, target the boots

[01:29:45] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:29:46] Michelle: Rather than the people around us who also have boots on their necks. Right. Exactly. Um, and like we're just flailing around on the ground at each other when we're like, oh, we should be punching up.

[01:29:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah,

[01:29:55] Michelle: yeah, yeah.

[01:29:56] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely.

[01:29:56] Michelle: Mm-hmm.

[01:29:57] Dr. Nicole: We organize.

[01:29:58] Michelle: Organized. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.

[01:30:01] Dr. Nicole: Well, I'm really grateful that you organized with me today.

[01:30:05] Michelle: Yeah. Again, thank you for having me on. Yeah. Great talking to you again.

[01:30:10] Dr. Nicole: I know

[01:30:10] Michelle: all this juicy stuff, you know.

[01:30:11] Dr. Nicole: I know, I know.

[01:30:12] Michelle: We went places.

[01:30:13] Dr. Nicole: We did. We did. We still have one more place to go, so I'll take that final deep breath with you.

And the last question that I ask everyone on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:30:33] Michelle: Hmm. One thing that I wish other people knew was more normal was, um, I, I'm pretty sure I said this last time, so I'm not gonna repeat it. I love it. I think I said that everyone is like, weirder than you think.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure I said that last time. Yeah. But that like. Just to fucking love sex. Mm. Is so normal.

[01:30:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:30:54] Michelle: Like, I think there's a lot of narratives around like porn addiction or sex addiction, but it's like, god forbid a girl loves to just like, oh

[01:31:03] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[01:31:03] Michelle: Experience great. Release through her genitals or whatever.

Yeah. You know, just like, it's okay to love sex. Oh

[01:31:10] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[01:31:11] Michelle: Not a bad person for it as long as you're still paying your bills and, you know, keeping up with your, uh, obligations and relationships and stuff like that. Like go full hog. Oh yeah.

[01:31:22] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Enjoy yourself. Enjoy

[01:31:24] Michelle: yourself. Yeah. As a, as a hedonist, it's just like, why not?

Yeah. Like, yes, there're little things that we talked about, like STIs and stuff like that, but yeah. You do things more responsibly. Like any, anything like you do any hobby, sometimes, you know, especially outdoors or whatever. You take precautions. Yeah. You wear your knee pads and helmets and Yep. You still get hurt sometimes.

Yeah. But does that stop you from doing it? Not necessarily. Like, yeah.

[01:31:44] Dr. Nicole: So

[01:31:45] Michelle: just, yeah.

[01:31:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:31:48] Michelle: Seize the moment. And, you know, have sex, have safe for sex. Absolutely. But, you know, have the sex

[01:31:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah.

[01:31:54] Michelle: Of good sex.

[01:31:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. We don't have moral judgments when you scrape the knee Right. From rollerblading or something or whatever.

Like

[01:32:00] Michelle: we just, you know, do a little, some corrections. Yeah. It's like, oh, maybe we can do this or that instead and then, yeah. Yeah.

[01:32:07] Dr. Nicole: It is Friday, so I'm burning my sex candle.

[01:32:11] Michelle: Ooh. Right now as we sweet. What does it smell like? Does it have a smell or?

[01:32:17] Dr. Nicole: It did crack too, from getting too hot. So now it's like, like the listeners can't see, but it's this like really epic candle with this like too huge crack at the top.

[01:32:25] Michelle: The sex candle burns too hot.

[01:32:26] Dr. Nicole: It's sometimes too powerful for the container.

[01:32:29] Michelle: Been having incredibly intense sex this weekend.

[01:32:32] Dr. Nicole: It fucking actually cracked when I was leaving a job too, which I thought was really wild. Like, the day that I like, like left that job it cracked, which I was like, oh, well maybe that's a signal.

'cause I left it 'cause there wasn't enough like sex focus work as a whole thing. Mm-hmm. But, uh, the candle, it was funny, I walked into this like. Uh, it's like Alchemy Arts Witchy bookstore, right? So I walk in and like, there's like this haze of sage, like truly, like you can see haze how, how, how smoky it is when you walk in.

Like, like I'm opening the door and like smoke is coming out the door. And I was like, whoa, you know, this is my first time in this bookstore. And I'm like, do you guys have any books on, on sex? And, and they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like over here. And it was like, um, you know, like a couple of books and they're like, do you want a sex candle?

And I was like. You know what? I've never had one, but like, why not? And the lady was like, well, okay, so is this a one night stand sex candle or a long-term relationship? Sex, sex candle? You know what I said? Wow. I was like, like I'm spiritually devoted to sexuality candle. She's like, got, it. Starts like throwing all this stuff in there, all these herbs.

She's like, here's your candle. You burn it on Fridays and Fridays only because that's the day of Venus and love. And so like,

[01:33:48] Michelle: wow. Okay. Alright.

[01:33:51] Dr. Nicole: I'm, yeah, I know, right? So, hey, I, I, every Friday. I've been burning. I've been burning

[01:33:59] Michelle: God. I love humans. I love us. Meaning making rituals to humans.

[01:34:02] Dr. Nicole: I know, I know, I know.

I love it so much. Uh, Michelle, it's been such a joy to have you on the podcast today. Thank you for joining me and all of the listeners.

[01:34:11] Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. I'm gonna, again, thank you for having me on and Of course, yeah, it was a joy. God always, of course. Juicy, juicy conversation. Yeah.

[01:34:18] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Where can the listeners find you in all of your content?

[01:34:23] Michelle: Yeah, I am a solo platform queen. I can't, I just can't manage more than just Instagram, you know, even though, you know, fuck meta. But

[01:34:32] Dr. Nicole: yeah,

[01:34:32] Michelle: I, on Instagram at polyamorous violation, um, I don't post quite as often as I used to, but I'm still there. I'll post on stories and, you know, my dms are always open to, you know, respectful conversation and, and whatnot.

Yeah. So, yeah. Come say hi. Come, uh, go through the backlog of content.

[01:34:50] Dr. Nicole: You're welcome. Exactly. Yeah. So much, so much work there. So thank you, Michelle. Thank you for all of your work, and truly thank you for joining me again on Modern Anarchy.

[01:35:00] Michelle: Yeah.