281. Finding Kinky, Non-Monogamous Community – Ryan Ash

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Ryan join us for a conversation about the messy and oh-so-human journey of expansive relating. Together, we talk about the resilience that comes with healing from trauma, knitting in the dungeon, and the power of vulnerability. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.

I am so delighted that you are here and are joining the pleasure activists from around the world for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, author of The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and The First Study on Relationship Anarchy, and I teach students from around the world how to craft pleasurable sex lives and non-monogamous relationships.

Dear listener This episode with Ryan is such a gift. Ryan was so incredibly vulnerable and authentic about their journey, and there's just something that resonates when people come in with that much vulnerability to say, "Hey, this is where I've been. This is what's happened to me, and this is what I've learned," right?

And to not hide away from the messy bits of that experience. And so thank you, Ryan. Thank you for trusting me. Thank you for trusting your story with the Modern Anarchy community and all the listeners who are tuning in. And dear listener, Ryan is also a part of the Love Fest events. These are different conferences.

I've had the joy of going to all three of them this year. Two of them have already happened, and one is actually still coming up. I went to the Southwest Love Fest in Arizona, the Mile High Love Fest in August on my birthday, and then also I am attending the Midwest Love Fest later this year in November.

So if you're in the Midwest region and you're interested in learning more about expansive relationships, non-monogamy, kink, all that is linked in the show notes below, and I would love to see all of you there. And again, thank you, Ryan, for bringing your vulnerability to, uh, this community and sharing your story.

All right, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore all of my free resources. I have so many free resources. We got my book, The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide. We have worksheets to build more pleasure in your relationships, in your sex life, clear commitments in your non-monogamous agreements, as well as my dissertation on relationship anarchy.

It's all free and online at modernanarchypodcast.com. That's also where you'll learn more about my upcoming groups. We're currently running the Pleasure Liberation group right now for the non-monogamy, so next time that will happen will be in the August of 2027. But next up on the docket is the Sexuality group in February.

And also, y'all, we're about two months out from the video release of the show. My goodness, my goodness, my goodness. And I'm so excited to be bringing that to you. Me and my editor have been working so, so hard. So I'm really looking forward to November and excited to release that and share it with all of you.

And also thank you to all my Patreon community. You have been supporting me for the last five years to make this amazing and free resource that is Modern Anarchy. So thank you, thank you, thank you to my Patreon community. I'm so grateful for the space that we have together. And with that, dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love, and let's tune in to today's episode

First question that I love to ask every guest on the show is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:04:03] Ryan: Uh, my name is Ryan. I'm a queer cisgender woman. I'm a relationship anarchist. I love, uh, as Mr. Rogers put it, to, like, be a helper, you know? Um-

[00:04:14] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:04:15] Ryan: Semi-retired coach and clinical hypnotherapist.

I'm on the board of LoveFest Events and its people and culture manager. And through LoveFest and other channels, I like to help the community guide individuals and communities in challenging their ingrained patterns and seeing if they can come up with ones that fit them better.

[00:04:34] Dr. Nicole: Well, welcome to Modern Anarchy.

You're definitely in the right place.

[00:04:38] Ryan: Thank you.

[00:04:39] Dr. Nicole: For the listener who doesn't know about LoveFest, I'm curious, how would you describe it? I recently was there and got to speak, and so I'm curious, how would you describe the, the event?

[00:04:50] Ryan: So LoveFest Events runs... Right now we have three conferences, and you were just at Southwest LoveFest, uh, was in the beginning of May this year.

And it's a conference about relationship diversity, so any kind of different style that might not be the mono normative or the amato-normative style of relationships, even if it's, I say just, but even if it's just queer- Mm-hmm ... or just non-monogamous or, you know, whatever style If you got in an accident and were in the hospital, and the person that you...

is your partner isn't allowed to go see you because they're not your family. If you have a relationship that's like that, this is a really good conference, 'cause we talk about all of that stuff. And then there's also a lot of education about actual non-monogamy, a lot of jealousy talks, of course.

[00:05:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:47] Ryan: And education of all kinds. We do a lot of CEs so therapists can get their continuing education. And that's just our conference. I mean, all of the conferences have their own flavor because they're in different parts-

[00:06:01] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:06:01] Ryan: of the country. So we have Southwest LoveFest, which is in Phoenix, Arizona. We have Mile High LoveFest, which is in Denver, Colorado, Denver area.

[00:06:11] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:12] Ryan: And then we have Midwest LoveFest, which is in the November timeframe, and that is in Indianapolis.

[00:06:19] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:20] Ryan: So three conferences a year. And then throughout the year we have LoveFest Education, which is our nonprofit side. And we... Here locally in Phoenix we do monthly education, and we're building that out, and it's pretty wonderful.

It's getting, like, really good feedback. And we're looking at possibly doing pop-up conferences- Mm ... for people that want them, like going to specific areas. If someone says, "We wanna do this, but we don't have the-"

[00:06:50] Dr. Nicole: Right ... "

[00:06:50] Ryan: time, budget. Can we just get some classes?" We can just take the classes on the road and get it done-

[00:06:56] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm

[00:06:57] Ryan: for them. So it's, it's pretty exciting to be a part of it. Uh, this was our second year running Southwest LoveFest, although it's been around since 2017 or 2018- Mm-hmm ... in Tucson.

[00:07:09] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:10] Ryan: Uh, we took it up to Phoenix couple years ago, so-

[00:07:13] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:07:13] Ryan: it's been wonderful.

[00:07:15] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And the energy is very... Yeah, community-based, expansive.

Feels like there's a lot of acceptance of various different relational styles. There's a flirtation board, even. Mm-hmm. Lots of kinky art. Yes. Yeah. How would you describe the energy of the experience?

[00:07:37] Ryan: The energy is incredible. People are so excited to just take the masks off- Mm-hmm ... and be themselves.

[00:07:44] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:07:44] Ryan: And, you know, looking out at everybody just having a great time, like, I, I'm getting teary-eyed- Mm ... just thinking about it. Um- Yeah. I warned you that might happen. Um- Yeah, and

[00:07:54] Dr. Nicole: it's welcome here.

[00:07:56] Ryan: It's, yeah, it's just really, it just builds a lot of gratitude for me, because, you know, we all grow up wearing some kind of mask.

We all grow up thinking that we're different, we don't fit in, and there are places for us to go. Yeah. So being able to provide that space is really, it gives me a lot of gratitude.

[00:08:17] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah, the tears that are coming up, what if, what if we be with those for just a moment?

Yeah. I'm, I'm curious, is it speaking to previous experiences where maybe you've felt that or yeah, what is that-

[00:08:38] Ryan: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yes. I have been... I have felt so out of place and so disassociated from others, and so alone and isolated. And then, and now I don't. Now I'm surrounded by people like me. Uh, it's...

I have to make an effort to, to know people who are not in my spheres- Mm-hmm ... just so I'm not living in an echo chamber. Mm-hmm. You know, I like to get other points of view sometimes, but- Right.

[00:09:09] Dr. Nicole: I hear you ...

[00:09:10] Ryan: I am absolutely immersed in the non-monogamy culture in Phoenix, the kink community. Um, and so I never have to feel alone- Mm

and that's a really wonderful feeling.

[00:09:23] Dr. Nicole: Is there any words of advice you'd want to say to your younger self who had yet to have found all those places, all those people, who maybe was wondering, "Is any of this real?"

[00:09:34] Ryan: I travel, I time travel all the time. Mm-hmm. So I go back to my younger self- Great ... and I say, "Hold on, sister.

You're gonna have a great time. It's gonna be wonderful." Yeah. Like, you, if I told you right now, you wouldn't even believe me. You wouldn't understand.

[00:09:49] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:09:50] Ryan: Uh, so just hang in there, and you're gonna love it.

[00:09:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[00:09:55] Ryan: And I started talking to my older self now, too, so I- I

[00:09:59] Dr. Nicole: love

[00:09:59] Ryan: that ... send some messages the other way.

[00:10:02] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[00:10:03] Ryan: But, you know, 'cause I wonder, like, when I was a young kid, this, going through the stuff I was going through, I always wondered, like, why did I, why did I hold on? Like, what made me stay around? And I'm like, "Maybe it's 'cause I talked to myself." I should probably do that again.

[00:10:18] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, get some words of advice from the future, too, and pulling that in.

[00:10:23] Ryan: Yes.

[00:10:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:10:24] Ryan: Yes.

[00:10:25] Dr. Nicole: I'm curious for you, Ryan, then, if we go back to some of your younger experiences, what were the messages around relationships and sexuality that you were raised in that feels maybe so different than where you're at now?

[00:10:39] Ryan: Oh, well, man, uh, totally different. So I was not raised religious, which I'm very thankful for- Yeah.

knowing all of the people that I've worked with who have that religious trauma. Yeah, I, I'm so- Mm-hmm ... grateful to my mother for hating church, because- Mm ... it saved me a lot of, a lot of work.

[00:11:01] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:01] Ryan: A lot of therapy bills. So...

[00:11:03] Dr. Nicole: Right. Yes. So

[00:11:05] Ryan: the messaging I got around sexuality, there was sexual abuse in my household, and it was not spoken about.

Mm. So we, that was the message, was we- Mm ... don't talk about that. Uh, relationships, we also did not talk about that, but I got to, you know, there was one in my house that I could look at.

[00:11:26] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:11:28] Ryan: And I had several folks around me with different relationships kinda going. My mother had a boyfriend who was a fair bit older than her, and their relationship was weird.

It just was k- kind of disconnected and cold, like asynchronous. Mm. Uh, they weren't around each other a lot. Uh, when they were, they didn't argue or fuss too much, which was nice.

[00:11:52] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:52] Ryan: Um, and then my godparents, both of my godparents were queer, and my godmother met a woman when I was, I think, eight. They're still together, so they've been together- Mm

forever. And

That was a really good relationship for me to see that consistency, and how they treated each other, and the respect and, and love that they had for each other. They weren't quarrelsome.

[00:12:17] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:12:18] Ryan: You know, so I had this one place that was-

[00:12:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:12:22] Ryan: normal to me, you know?

[00:12:24] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:25] Ryan: So I didn't grow up with, like, homophobia in my household, which was nice.

[00:12:30] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Yeah. Uh,

[00:12:31] Ryan: but I didn't really know that I was queer until-

[00:12:35] Dr. Nicole: Sure ...

[00:12:37] Ryan: I was 14 and fell in love, and, you know- Mm ... all of that stuff, which was really- Yeah ... an amazing experience, but also a very closeted experience, 'cause it was the mid-'90s, and it just-

[00:12:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:12:48] Ryan: not at my school, you know? And that's coming from somebody who lived in LA, like it's pretty- Mm-hmm

progressive, you know, but it still wasn't cool to be gay, so.

[00:13:00] Dr. Nicole: Right, and so yeah, that space of not having the religious context created some cracking open of possibility and expansiveness, but there's still the systems that were ever so present at that time that maybe made it hard to st- well, like, fully embrace, understand, or even notice, you know?

[00:13:17] Ryan: Yeah. It wasn't something that I considered for myself until it was already happening.

[00:13:23] Dr. Nicole: Ah.

[00:13:25] Ryan: You know?

[00:13:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[00:13:26] Ryan: Just because it wasn't, it wasn't brought up. I had the abuse part, but that's not really sex.

[00:13:33] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:13:33] Ryan: Even though the acts are sexual, that's not-

[00:13:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:13:36] Ryan: really what it's about, and especially not with, as a child.

[00:13:39] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:13:40] Ryan: So this was a completely different world, because it was consensual, and- Mm ... it was with a- another girl, you know. We were both- Mm-hmm ... teenagers at the time And she was my contemporary. Like, she wasn't super older than me. Like, it was all very... It was practically quaint now- Mm ... you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, considering some of the shit I get up to, but- Yeah.

[00:14:02] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly. So gentle and easy, you know? Very vanilla- Yes ... I imagine compared to

[00:14:08] Ryan: Yes ...

[00:14:09] Dr. Nicole: the rest of the things now.

[00:14:11] Ryan: Uh, absolutely.

[00:14:12] Dr. Nicole: Do you remember what your sex ed was like? I think that's always a fun question to ask people on the show, too, if they remember what, if any, that they got.

[00:14:19] Ryan: I believe we had a class in school, you know, when, when they separate the boys and the girls in elementary school- Classic

and you get the- Classic ... menstruation talk, and you get to see that live birth.

[00:14:30] Dr. Nicole: Ah.

[00:14:32] Ryan: I don't know if they were doing that when you were in school, but that was definitely a thing for my grade.

[00:14:37] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Not at Christian school. We didn't get any of that. That was, that was way forbidden. It was abstinence only for me, so I didn't e- I didn't get the condom on the banana.

I didn't get the birth- Mm ... talk, none of it. It was like, "Well, you're just not gonna do any of that ever till you're married. And then once you're married, you'll just magically know how to do all of it. Good luck." You know?

[00:14:56] Ryan: Sounds terrible. It was, yeah. Uh, yeah, we, I think we waited for the condom on the banana until I was in high school, but-

[00:15:02] Dr. Nicole: That makes sense.

That makes sense.

[00:15:03] Ryan: We got a little sex ed- Little sex ed ... by then. Yeah.

[00:15:06] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And so you're growing up within, yeah, a, a culture where queerness is a bit more open, right? You're also growing up where you're getting some level of sex education, but there's also a lot of trauma going on- Mm ... at the time.

I'm curious, when you look back on that chapter of your life, what are some of the things that stand out to you now that maybe you didn't even realize until you've done a lot of healing work later, where n- when you look back, you say, "Wow, I was walking through this or that, and I just didn't even have the language or the awareness.

Now that I do, now that I'm more healed with these things"?

[00:15:43] Ryan: Uh, yeah, like a truckload. I could just back it up and dump it all out, you know what I mean? Like-

[00:15:47] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I'm here for it.

[00:15:49] Ryan: I, I moved out when I was 15. You know, my girlfriend got me g- got her parents to agree to let me move in with them.

[00:15:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:58] Ryan: And so I had a live-in relationship at 15, you know?

Mm. That was interesting navigating that. Uh- Sure ... I was so angry, you know? Just- So pissed off. And my mother, you know, she couldn't... I was not, I was a feral child. I was not raised. Any raising I did was on my own.

[00:16:22] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:16:23] Ryan: I was very well-read. And so I was really angry, and my mother said, "You know, you can move out, but if you don't get straight As, then I will call the cops on you, and you'll have to come home."

[00:16:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:16:34] Ryan: She was still living with my abuser.

[00:16:37] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:16:38] Ryan: He had been in prison for a few years for molesting a, a young lady, not me, but another one.

[00:16:43] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:16:44] Ryan: And then she let him back in the house even though they had a kid, and he wasn't allowed around it. It was like a- Wow. I was angry, and I hadn't told her yet. Of course.

Yeah. I had not told her yet. And so finally we did tell my mom. My, my girlfriend helped me, like, tell my mom In her beliefs, she w- she put it in denial, you know? Mm. She didn't want

[00:17:11] Dr. Nicole: to.

[00:17:11] Ryan: Because I didn't wanna talk to her about it. I had so much shame and- Of course ... you know, all of that stuff. Yeah. Uh, I didn't wanna talk to her.

My, you know, she, we never talked about sex in my life. Why would I start with that?

[00:17:23] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:17:23] Ryan: And she just decided to not believe me. She decided that I was making it up so I could live with my girlfriend and-

[00:17:30] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Wow ...

[00:17:32] Ryan: it was very lame. So I was pissed- Oh, yeah ... and, and, and very deeply closeted, you know? Like, I'm sure we weren't fooling people as much as we liked to think we were, but, uh, it definitely felt deeply closeted, and-

[00:17:48] Dr. Nicole: Mm

[00:17:49] Ryan: just that anger and isolation, you know? Like, no one has been through what I've been through. And then I got really into drugs and alcohol at some point, you know, when one thing led to another, and I got to try all the good drugs. It was wonderful. Um-

[00:18:05] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:18:05] Ryan: a lot of fun, and I didn't get in any trouble with the drugs.

[00:18:09] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:10] Ryan: The booze got me in a little trouble. I ended up-

[00:18:12] Dr. Nicole: Sure ...

[00:18:13] Ryan: getting sober when I was 23, 'cause I just kinda ran through that whole alcoholic experience very- Yeah ... very quickly.

[00:18:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:18:22] Ryan: Um, but that was, that, going to AA was probably the best thing that's ever happened to me.

[00:18:30] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:18:31] Ryan: So-

[00:18:32] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:18:33] Ryan: even though, I, I mean, it's a cult.

It-

[00:18:35] Dr. Nicole: I've- It,

[00:18:37] Ryan: it-

[00:18:37] Dr. Nicole: I've heard. I've had some clients, I'm like, "Whoa, whoa."

[00:18:40] Ryan: It, it, it is a cult and I, I, I love it. It sa- it saved my life.

[00:18:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm. 100%.

[00:18:48] Ryan: Yeah.

[00:18:49] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:18:49] Ryan: So I, I, it's, in my opinion, it's a cult, but it's a good cult. Like-

[00:18:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm, mm-hmm ...

[00:18:54] Ryan: you have to be careful not to drink the flavor aid too much.

[00:18:57] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:18:58] Ryan: But they say, you know, take what you want and leave the rest, and that was something that I did.

[00:19:05] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:06] Ryan: So I did not buy it hook, line, and sinker. I was my own- Of course ... critical thinker, and-

[00:19:10] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:19:11] Ryan: that changed it for me. Yeah. So.

[00:19:14] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, and a place where you can have community, understanding, being witness and seen, and witnessing other people who are going through the same thing. And I, I don't know if you find some of the drinking to be connected to the trauma.

Sometimes that's something that happens. I don't... Yeah, I don't wanna make that assumption that it was for you. But if that feels- Oh ... resonant, then...

[00:19:34] Ryan: It certainly was. I was a cutter. Yeah. And then I found alcohol. Mm-hmm. And it was like that numbed me out so I didn't have to cut so much or- Mm-hmm ... you know, self-harm so much.

[00:19:44] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:45] Ryan: And the cutting is what- actually ended up saving my life, 'cause I did this really- Mm ... I had this really bad episode of cutting, and my friends- Mm ... were like, "You have a problem. You need to go see somebody."

[00:19:57] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:19:57] Ryan: And they threatened to call the authorities on me and have me taken away in the little white van if I didn't get some help.

Mm. So I went to therapy, and that, you know, I saw that woman for 10 years straight, and that That be- that between that and AA was, like, expansive, changed my life. Um, complete 180 from where I was- Mm ... where I was going, what I could have ended up doing with my life, you know?

[00:20:22] Dr. Nicole: Sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. So thank, thank God that you went, thank God that you had the space to go, and that you were able to get the healing and the support that you needed in community, both the people who were keeping you accountable lovingly and pushing you into a different place, the therapist, AA, all the work that you've done.

Yeah, I mean, it, it's, it's hard in those, those experiences when you're, when you're coming up with so much trauma, like you said, the anger and, and I imagine so many other emotions that we could name here that probably were really hard to sit with and really impossible to integrate, right? And so feeling something through self-harming or numbing through, um, different substances, right?

It kind of almost puts that Band-Aid on the experience of the gushing blood, but it feels like it's just holding it there for just a moment, right? Yeah. And so I imagine then some of your, your healing work was learning how to, like, slowly titrate into actually feeling those experiences and, and the, the pain, the grime, the grief, all that that was underneath that.

[00:21:26] Ryan: Oh, yeah. The, the step process is really good for kind of, like, mining all of that stuff out, and between that and therapy, which is... It's, it was... And I actually talked to my therapist this, about this at the time 'cause it was confusing.

[00:21:41] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:41] Ryan: AA is like, "Stop fucking thinking about yourself and help other people."

And therapy is like, "Stop helping other people and fucking think about yourself," you know? And so-

[00:21:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Generally, yeah.

[00:21:55] Ryan: And so, yeah, very broadly. And so thinking about it from those terms, you know, as a little 23-year-old, I was like, "I, uh, which one is whi- whi- which one's the right one?" And my therapist was like, "They are both right."

Mm. "We are both right. Like, see where both of us are right. And y- you know, you're smart enough. You have discernment. You can figure out when it's time to work on yourself, and you can think about when it's time to help others. You know-"

[00:22:19] Dr. Nicole: Yeah "...

[00:22:19] Ryan: what, which

[00:22:21] Dr. Nicole: one's better for you." Yeah, trust

[00:22:21] Ryan: yourself. Yeah. And that- Yeah

you know, that urging, that, that, that belief in me helped me believe in myself at a time when I was very insecure and afraid. You know, I- Mm ... I, alcohol was my answer, so taking that away- Mm ... like, I, I wasn't sure what my answer was gonna be anymore.

[00:22:41] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. For, like, your purpose for life or how to process. Yeah.

Maybe all of it.

[00:22:47] Ryan: Yeah, safety, comfort- Yeah, mm-hmm ... numbness, d- oblivion, all the things I was seeking. It was like, if I'm taking that away, what am I gonna put in its place? And what I put- Yeah ... in its place was a belief in something greater than myself. Mm. I, I would call it God back in the day. I don't know what I'd call it these days, something greater than myself.

Mm-hmm.

[00:23:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:08] Ryan: Even if it's just, like, the collective conscious or whatever.

[00:23:12] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:13] Ryan: And the community, and helping other people. Service really changed my life. I'm-

[00:23:18] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:23:19] Ryan: most happy, like you've already seen the tears, like the gratitude.

[00:23:22] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:23:22] Ryan: I am most happy when I'm sitting with somebody and they are telling me horrible shit.

Mm. And I'm just like, "Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes, I see you. You're not bad. You're not wrong. I did that," or, "I know someone who did that," or- Yeah ... you know, or, "I've heard that before." Because, you know, when you're in AA, you hear all kinds of shit, like all kinds of shit, and you kinda have to have no face because- Mm

judgment is really not... I mean, it depends on your group, but judgment was not welcome where I went So you really had to sit with people and be able to, like, keep a straight face and keep a loving thought in mind. Like- Mm ... this person was hurting when that, when they did that,

[00:24:10] Dr. Nicole: right?

[00:24:11] Ryan: Right. So that's something that I carry with me today, is like, what...

If somebody's bugging me and I just, I think, like, "What state would I have to be in to be acting like that?" Like, what, what fa- what pain would I have to be feeling to behave in that manner?

[00:24:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:24:28] Ryan: And that really helps me be compassionate.

[00:24:31] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that's a wise invitation for me, all of the listeners, to ground into, you know?

Because I think the world would be a better place if we understood that, that, yeah, the most, the harm that we see out in the world is caused by people who are deeply hurting themselves. And- Mm-hmm ... that's not to say we don't keep them accountable and call them in and out through that process, but like you said, can we soften for ourselves to, just for a moment, imagine what that person is going through, that this is the way they're reacting, you know?

Mm-hmm. I think that would make us a better world, if we could hold more of that framework rather than the, "Oh, this asshole again"- Right ... you know?

[00:25:12] Ryan: Mm-hmm. Yes. And that compassion practice is, like, the basis of my value system. So, you know, I've read all the books on it, like the, uh, The Book of Forgiving that, um- Mm

Desmond Tutu wrote. There's just a lot of really good literature out there about it. The Road Less Traveled was mind-blowing when I was a kid. Mm-hmm. You know, 25. Um- Sure ... and so being able to, to think about other people's behavior from that lens is what kind of started giving me the permission to think about it for myself.

[00:25:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. '

[00:25:48] Ryan: Cause compassion for other people came first. It wasn't-

[00:25:51] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:25:52] Ryan: it wasn't like, "I'm gonna go forgive myself and be good." It was, no. Uh- Mm-hmm ... it really took me learning that other people were human and did things that were sometimes really fucked up.

[00:26:04] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:26:05] Ryan: And I loved them anyway.

[00:26:07] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:08] Ryan: So maybe- All the fucked up stuff I did was lovable too.

[00:26:14] Dr. Nicole: Right. But that's so much harder to, to do, right? Yes. So much harder to do. Yeah, it's easier to look at the other person. We can kinda see their context, where they're at, and extend that. But us, we have to hear all the thoughts that we've ever had, all the things- Mm ... we've ever done. We've seen every single piece of it, right?

And so yeah, it can be much harder, and often that's where you wanna watch the internal language of like- Mm ... how would we describe this to a friend if they were suffering versus what we often do to ourselves c- 'cause we can be some of the worst critics. And that's why I appreciate you opening up so vulnerably about your beginning because, you know, you've worked with people.

What I know working with people is the amount of people that have similar stories to you. Oh, yeah.

[00:26:56] Ryan: We're everywhere. You know, I don't... I didn't, I didn't know I wasn't special. I didn't know that I wasn't going through this, you know, I wasn't the only person going through that. Like, there was no... I didn't talk about it in school.

You know, I told a group of friends, but then, you know, I told like three women or three girls, and they told some of our other girlfriends, and that was, that shut it down for me. I never mentioned it again. Oh.

[00:27:21] Dr. Nicole: Oh.

[00:27:23] Ryan: So that, learning how to be vulnerable was a process after getting, being dep- betrayed like that.

[00:27:33] Dr. Nicole: Um- Of

[00:27:33] Ryan: course ... and so f- the vulnerability that I have now or the way that I am now, it, that's from, that's AA training right there. Yeah. Like, I would get up and- I was wondering ... speak for an hour about all the horrendous shit I did, you know, and, uh, talk about really humiliating, terrible things that I did, and just get laughter, get rec- you know, that laughter of recognition, that laughter of like, "Oh, yeah, me too, sister.

Like, we get it." Mm-hmm. Um, and that feedback for me was really good. That was really- Mm-hmm ... good to, like, soften my judgment of myself-

[00:28:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:28:10] Ryan: and allow me to just heal.

[00:28:13] Dr. Nicole: Mm, absolutely. I mean, we, we hurt in relationships and we also heal in relationships. So right- Mm-hmm ... here is this moment where you are being so vulnerable in your early childhood, and it sounds like, yeah, there was some gossiping going around, some sharing, maybe some rejection and judgment around the experience, and so you very quickly learned, "Okay, if I open up and tell other people how I feel, I'm gonna get cast out or shared without my consent or all these other things."

And so right, next step would be, "I'm gonna cover all this up. No one knows. No one's- Mm-hmm ... ever gonna know. I'm gonna keep myself safe." But then you're moving through this world where you can't connect 'cause you're carrying something that feels unlovable or unsafe to share, right? So then to come into that AA space where so many people are doing their process of, "I've done this, I've done that, I've done this," and the laughter, the moments, all that is connection.

Mm. So very quickly you learn, "I can be a human that's made mistakes and be in connection and loved and cared for."

[00:29:13] Ryan: Yes. And the, the idea that I was lovable was new because the- Mm ... I didn't feel particularly loved in my home.

[00:29:23] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[00:29:24] Ryan: You know? I was a sex toy for a pedophile- Yeah. Yeah ... and something that my mother ignored.

So I had these- Mm ... two... I had, like, too much attention on one side and then none on the other.

[00:29:36] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:29:37] Ryan: So it just did not feel like I had any agency. It didn't feel like I had any... Uh, consent was not a thing in my household. So all of those lessons, right, that I learned as a child, I had to unlearn all that stuff.

Oh, yeah. And- Absolutely ... you know, so again, thankful there's no religion in there either to make it, you know, to embed it so much deeper than it was, you know?

[00:29:59] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:30:00] Ryan: Because I had such a feral upbringing, I used to say, like, "A pack of wolves raised me," and then I was like, "No, a pack of wolves would've raised me better."

Mm. I would've had better manners. Uh-

[00:30:10] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:30:11] Ryan: but that, that flexibility that I had to have to be like that really helped me out later on when I got sober and I could just discard so much bullshit, you know, and do the shadow work. Like, that was really important, you know, being able- Mm-hmm ... to go, "Yeah, I am a liar, a cheat, and a thief."

Like, I have done those things in my past, and I'm still not a bad person.

[00:30:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I,

[00:30:35] Ryan: I'm a hurt person, a, you know, a person with some injuries who needed to recover from them. Right. You know?

[00:30:43] Dr. Nicole: Exactly.

[00:30:43] Ryan: It's a big difference. It's a d- it's a paradigm shift, for sure.

[00:30:47] Dr. Nicole: Oh, absolutely. And, and just, I'm, I'm sure as you've aged and seen kids be the age that you were at that time-

[00:30:57] Ryan: Devastating.

It's devastating I just, I, I can't believe the things that I was able to do at the toddler age because of, you know, I got left at home by my... It's, you know, latchkey generation. Sure. Which Gen X are through and through. So-

[00:31:13] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:31:13] Ryan: getting left at home at like, you know, "Don't, don't drown in the toilet, don't touch the oven, don't open the door for anybody.

We'll see you in six hours-" Mm ... "after our work shift is over," right? Mm-hmm.

[00:31:23] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. So

[00:31:24] Ryan: I see that and I just, I'm so grateful. You know, I... Parenting has changed so much. I'm sure. Thankfully. Uh, you know, I don't have any children, but I s- I, I was a child, and I watch, you know, I watch parents. I watch how they are, and it's sh- it's so different.

It's shifted so much, and what's expected of parents has changed so much.

[00:31:47] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:31:48] Ryan: Um, and the understanding that children are autonomous beings that are not little echoes of you or extensions of you or- Mm ... ways to make up your shattered dreams. Like, all these things. Oh, yeah. Um, you know. Uh, it, it's, it's just, it's beautiful sometimes to see some, the way that people parent, you know?

[00:32:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:32:10] Ryan: There's been a paradigm shift in our society about how to raise children, and I think that that's really wonderful.

[00:32:16] Dr. Nicole: Yes, I

[00:32:16] Ryan: agree. 'Cause it, it can, it can undo a lot of the damage.

[00:32:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. You need, you need support, you need guidance, you need all of that, right? To be left alone and all of those pieces, yeah, of course.

Of course. And I'm also curious, has there been any movement with your mom in terms of acknowledging any of this piece? 'Cause I know you shared that. I mean, it's been, it sounds like it's been many years since.

[00:32:41] Ryan: Oh, yes. 30, 40 almost years.

[00:32:44] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:32:45] Ryan: Um, so my mother and I have a relationship that is- pleasant.

She's not a person who wants to talk about the past. It's just not her thing. When I got sober, I was doing my step work, got to the, you know, the step where you make amends to people, and I tried- Right ... to make amends to my mother, and we kept, like, I would be like, "Hey, I wanna talk about this, tell you I'm sorry."

She would be like... We'd get in an argument. So I tried it twice, and the second time, I was like, second or third time maybe, I was like, "Oh, she doesn't wanna hear this. My amends to her has to be a living one." Like, I can't, I can't talk to her about it. She doesn't wanna talk about it. There's not gonna be healing in that capacity on her end or with me, so I'm gonna have to take care of myself in that regard and just meet her where she's at if I wanna have a relationship with her at all.

So I had s- I had quit speaking to her when I was 21. I just said, "You are out. I, I can't deal with you anymore, and lose my number." Mm-hmm. And I just didn't talk to her for about five years, four or five years. Mm. Mm-hmm. And then when I brought her back when I was 25 into my life, I was ready to do the amends.

I tried. It didn't work, and I had just- Mm ... I was like, "Okay, so she either gets me in her life or she doesn't. What's gonna feel better to me, you know, when I hear that my mother's passed away? What's gonna feel better in my body?"

[00:34:13] Dr. Nicole: Right. Yep.

[00:34:14] Ryan: You know? Like, knowing that I tried and, and had the relationship with her that I could, or staying away from her and protecting myself.

Like, which one is gonna be better? And I chose to have her in my life. It took me a long ti- I forgave my, uh, you know, my abuser, my, like, active abuser. I forgave him really fast because he had a fucked up childhood just like me, and I, I understood that. You know, I got, I understood what that man went through because I went through it, and it turned- Mm-hmm

him into a monster and it was turning, turning me into one too, but I- Mm ... you know, I, I escaped that fate.

[00:34:52] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:52] Ryan: Um, my mother, I didn't know about her upbringing, and hers was also rough. She also- Mm ... she had some SA in there. She had, you know- Mm ... there was... She shared one thing with me, and I was just like, "What?"

You know, like, her first sexual experience was they were, like, sniffing glue and she- Mm ... passed out and came- Mm ... to with a man on top of her, or you know- Oof ... a, a boy on top of her.

[00:35:16] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:35:17] Ryan: And, you know, thinking about that being her first sexual experience, it's like- She, she should have known better. And then it's like, no, she hasn't even dealt with her own stuff, so there was no way she was gonna be able to deal with-

[00:35:29] Dr. Nicole: Right

[00:35:30] Ryan: what was happening to her child, right?

[00:35:33] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:34] Ryan: And once I could gain some compassion for my mother's plight in life, you know, I was more able to... I, I get not wanting to talk about hard shit. I get it. I'm not gonna do it. I am going to talk about hard shit, but I get not wanting to. So I just, we have a very pleasant relationship, we joke around, we...

Everything's good.

[00:35:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Oh, yeah, your journey with that, so much, you know, you want to connect, you want to feel seen, you want to feel understood, you want to have that moment, right? Mm-hmm. And also, the grief you have to move through to realize that is not going to happen at all, and so how do you- Mm ... lower your expectations and into reality of just what this is.

And like you said, having that moment where you're deciding, "Do I accept this as it is and welcome this person in my life, or do I walk away?" And that is the amount of clients I've sat through who sit in that sort of space of truly having to move through the grief of, wow, this is this person and I can have compassion.

And also, this is horrible that I'm not gonna have this moment that I dream of, of them understanding, having remorse, accountability, seeing you. And so the emotional maturity of, of your part to have to work through all of that, to grieve all of that, and then come to a space of acceptance and say, "This is what I want," that's no easy journey at all, Ryan.

[00:36:58] Ryan: No. It really, it really isn't, and I s- you know, I've, I've worked with a lot of people going through the same thing. And I, I will say, like, if you, uh, if you're thinking about cutting off your family, maybe give it a shot. Like, you, it doesn't have to be permanent. Right. You can just take a, like, six-month sabbatical from all their bullshit.

[00:37:17] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:18] Ryan: See if you feel better. If you feel better, maybe do another six months and see how you feel after that. Right. Or if you wanna invite them back in, I... My family all knows I will leave if-

[00:37:29] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:37:30] Ryan: they start being wacky, I'm out.

[00:37:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:36] Ryan: And they are more... They're watchful. They're more watchful of how they speak to me and what they do now than they were before they knew that.

[00:37:45] Dr. Nicole: Good.

[00:37:47] Ryan: Yeah. 'Cause they know I'll leave, and I won't- Right ... come back if, if it's... You know, if they wanna be egregious, I won't come back.

[00:37:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:37:54] Ryan: So-

[00:37:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:37:55] Ryan: I, I, I, you know, I hate to see people masking and, and, and being on their best behavior. Usually I'm like, "Be rowdy, be gnarly, be all these things." But when it's really, when you're psychologically damaging other human beings with your behavior, like putting a little bit of a mask on is not a bad thing, right?

Because act as if.

[00:38:16] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:17] Ryan: You know? When you know better, do better. And if it's hard, act like you can until you can, until that's who you are, right?

[00:38:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:26] Ryan: Um, and that whole, like you were talking about self-talk earlier, and we, that, the hypnosis, all of that, the training that I did with that, it really brought to light how important our words are.

[00:38:38] Dr. Nicole: Oh my gosh.

[00:38:40] Ryan: We hypnotize ourselves into thinking all kinds of stuff that's not true It's, uh, so I'm careful with my words, I'm careful with-

[00:38:48] Dr. Nicole: Yep ...

[00:38:48] Ryan: you know, I, or I, I work on being careful with my words. I am not always careful with my words. Same.

[00:38:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah,

[00:38:54] Ryan: yeah,

[00:38:54] Dr. Nicole: I hear you. Human,

[00:38:55] Ryan: check. Talk before I think. Yes. I talk before I think a lot.

But the, but the, the idea that I can make myself believe pretty much anything, you know? So it's like that fake it till you make it thing is really, you just hypnotize yourself into becoming a different human being, one that's more- Yeah ... in alignment with your values, right?

[00:39:15] Dr. Nicole: Right. Right. Right. You get to choose who you wanna become.

[00:39:19] Ryan: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:19] Dr. Nicole: My body might have different feelings. You know, sometimes I can know the narrative and my body's still shaking, and I'm like, "Well, but I wanna be," you know? And then you just keep repeating, and eventually- Yeah ... you titrate and become that. But, but yeah, that, I always talk about that as authorship of your life, right?

When you start to realize who, what the storyline is that you're writing, right? Mm-hmm. This happened to me and it means this about me, and it means this about the world, and this about other people. The second you have that insight to realize, whoa, I wrote a story. How real is the story? Who influenced the story?

Mm. Are there other ways that we could describe this scene? Are there other perspectives to take? And then going, okay, what story do I want to step into? Who do I want to become? Yeah, that moment when you're starting to create your life in that way, there's so much more power there than the, the powerlessness.

But it, it's, it's a pretty big awakening to realize how much of your reality truly is created by the way you describe yourself. Of course, it's also the systems, because what we think about, what, what's possible in our stories and the words we use come from the society we're in. So it's always that- Mm-hmm

yes and take of some of it's our responsibility, some of it's the system. But the part that is our responsibility, when you step into that, it's a whole other world, and you really have to confront how much of your reality is a reflection of your choices to tell the story.

[00:40:39] Ryan: Right. Yeah, and taking your p- taking some power back, which again, it's that dichotomy, right?

Because y- the powerlessness of being an alcoholic versus the agency- Mm ... I had once I realized- Right ... what my fucking problem was. Mm-hmm. Like, going in there and getting my hands dirty, all, you know, getting into my elbows, into my psyche- Yes ... and just figuring it the fuck out. Like, not stopping until I was feeling better, uh, was y- absolutely life-changing for me.

And, you know, that, that has led to me helping other people deconstruct their shit, too, and, and I'm, you know, I'm so grateful for that. And like my experience- has benefited other people. So when I would feel sorry for myself or when I would feel like, "This is too hard, I don't wanna do this," or like, "That was too hard and I'll never recover," it's like, yeah, bullshit.

Yeah. Bullshit. Like, if you recover, then you get to tell other people that you recovered from that. Yeah. If they wanna whine about it, they can do that, but if they wanna get better, they can do that too. You know? There's a big, there's a big power shift there.

[00:41:47] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah. And I think we can both agree that growth is never comfortable.

[00:41:52] Ryan: Mm-mm. Or, or, or everen- it's never-ending. It just-

[00:41:56] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[00:41:59] Ryan: You just keep peeling the layers of the onion and they're, oh, shit, there's more mess. There's more mess in here.

[00:42:04] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Exactly, exactly. That's why you gotta learn to enjoy the ride of it all, of like, "Mm, yay, more beautiful mess to play with.

How exciting," right? Mm-hmm, yep. It gets... You learn to love that process of becoming, right? Um, and so I'm curious, you know, you're doing all this healing work. You're working through your relationship to substances, to yourself, to your family. Where do more expansive connections around maybe non-monogamy or kink or any of that stuff, how does that start to come into the picture for you?

[00:42:37] Ryan: So my girlfriend had a boyfriend-

[00:42:39] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:42:40] Ryan: um, when we started. At...

[00:42:41] Dr. Nicole: Oh, great.

[00:42:42] Ryan: Yeah, you know. So

[00:42:43] Dr. Nicole: really young.

[00:42:44] Ryan: Yeah. I was... You know, right away, my first introduction was, like, everybody's cool, everybody's groovy. Uh, we would have, you know, sex parties on the k- living room floor, me and my other girlfriend and my old girlfriend and whoever, you know.

Yeah. We were having a good time. Um, they would hook up when I wasn't around. I, that was fine. Like, I, you know, I just, the jealousy thing is not there for me with sex.

[00:43:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[00:43:10] Ryan: Um, I do have... I still get jealous about, like, uh, when I feel like my unfairness or my time is being taken- Sure ... or, you know, stuff like that.

Mm-hmm. But the sex part It's pretty, it's pretty easy for me, which is, I'm grateful for.

[00:43:26] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:43:28] Ryan: So I did all that, and then my other relationships kind of like early 20s and all of that stuff were still pretty loosey-goosey. I mean, it wasn't like... It was kinda don't ask, don't tell.

[00:43:38] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[00:43:39] Ryan: And then I got in a monogamous marriage.

I was with my ex-husband for 13 years, and during that time we were monogamous, and I had no problem with that either. You know, I hadn't really explored my queerness since I was younger.

[00:43:56] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:43:57] Ryan: And so when I got a divorce, my friends had just opened a kink dungeon, and I would go. I had no idea. I'd never been kinky.

I'd never done any kink. Mm. Uh, but I would go and support them, and I'd bring my knitting, and I'd sit in the dungeon. Yes. I... Yeah. And people would come talk to me, and like, you know, be like, "What are you knitting?" And I just- Ah ... I'm like, "I'm just here to be supportive." Uh,

[00:44:22] Dr. Nicole: Love that.

[00:44:23] Ryan: Yeah. It was... I had a great time, and then, you know, people would wanna like...

I would be like, "Touch the knitting. It's so soft." And then like sensation play conversations would come out of that. Of course. And it just made me feel safe. I'd get to see people getting hit and i- loving it, you know?

[00:44:38] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:44:38] Ryan: So, you know, you stay in a barber shop long enough, you're gonna get a haircut eventually.

Yeah. You know? I took a beating, and- Yep ... I was having a really bad day, and I just said, "Maybe this will help. Like, it can't be any worse than it feels right now." So they beat me up, and I was like, "I'm gonna cry a little bit under this blanket." And then, whoo. Yeah. So that was a really powerful opening for me.

I was, uh- Mm ... in a lot of pain. I was in a lot of chronic pain-

[00:45:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:45:09] Ryan: uh, physically, and I was devastated emotionally. My ex- Mm ... husband was very abusive and had his own whole thing going on. And so I just was lost, and I was so ... I was m- I was lower then than I've ever been, even when I got sober. Mm. The, the trauma of, you know, discovering what was going on was, like- Right

the worst day of my life.

[00:45:32] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:45:33] Ryan: And so I was just, uh ... I was devastated. And so kink got me back in my body. It got me to start thinking about the future, like- Yeah ... you know, there's this whole door that just opened for me. Mm.

[00:45:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, possibilities.

[00:45:49] Ryan: Yeah. And, like, I don't have to be barren, dusty ass old woman at 40.

Like, I get to live as much as I want, and boy, did I. Like, I just had- Yeah ... you know, I just, I had a great time at ... You know- Good ... things just broke open after that, and I, I've been having a ball since then.

[00:46:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:46:09] Ryan: It -

[00:46:10] Dr. Nicole: Hell

[00:46:10] Ryan: yeah. You know, my ... I still have mood disorders that I have to fight with, and, you know, depression's a real thing for me.

[00:46:17] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:18] Ryan: But the way my life has been going, it's, it's pretty badass. Like, I- Yeah ... I feel lucky all the time, you know, 'cause I don't- Yes ... I, 'cause I have community, because, you know, I quote, like, "Most men lead lives of quiet desperation." I tell myself that a lot.

[00:46:33] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:46:33] Ryan: Because-

[00:46:34] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely ...

[00:46:35] Ryan: you know, that ... Like, just being at LoveFest and looking around and seeing all those people just opening up and being alive and feeling so connected, it's like most people don't get this.

[00:46:46] Dr. Nicole: Oh, no.

[00:46:48] Ryan: In the monogamous world, you get your partner and the couple that you're both best friends with, maybe And that's your community. That's it. You know, besides your family-

[00:46:58] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:46:59] Ryan: who, who's probably, you know, fucked up and pushes all your buttons.

[00:47:03] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:47:04] Ryan: So having a kink community and then finding- Yeah ... a non-monogamy community and being able to really marry those two things kind of together in my life, in my- Mm-hmm

heart and my soul and my practice- Yeah ... of being alive has been... It's badass. Like, it's just really cool.

[00:47:22] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Expansive, life-changing, so connective- Mm-hmm ... playful in all the different ways. I mean, yeah, most of the world can only snuggle with one person. The second you have a snuggle pile with multiple people, you realize- Mm

well, wait. I mean, like, even if people wanna get, uh, you know, restricted about the sex practices that they have, like, why not just snuggle more people? You guys- Yes ... like, what are we missing out? You know, like, I believe- Mm ... in the full openness, of course, but, like, just, like- Sure ... like, kind of, like, ah, there's just so much more connection, and we, we have these very interesting lines in society, you know?

Like- Yeah ... cannot have our bodies touch, or it means you're cheating, or it means... Like, just to think about how many invisible boundaries exist-

[00:48:08] Ryan: Oh, yeah ...

[00:48:09] Dr. Nicole: that prevent us from connection.

[00:48:11] Ryan: Yeah, and breaking all of that down was- pretty easy 'cause I had already done so much deconstruction in my life already.

[00:48:18] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:48:19] Ryan: You know, just c- just basically s- balling up my childhood and tossing it in the trash and just starting over- Yeah ... at 23, you know?

[00:48:27] Dr. Nicole: You

[00:48:27] Ryan: have to. Um, it made it, made it easier to go in and be like, "Okay, that's a mononormative thought that I'm having. Do I want that thought?" Yes. "Mm-mm. Okay. Kick it to the curb."

Yep. "Let's move on," you know? Yep. And that doesn't mean I practice non-monogamy well even, but I'm practicing.

[00:48:43] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely, and it's a lifelong practice, like anything- Absolutely ... full of joys, and, and pains, and lessons, and I, I wouldn't have it any other way. I welcome the- Nope ... the pains. Yeah, exactly, I welcome every bit of it, even when I'm scared and crying.

Um, it, it... I wouldn't want to live in the unknown of those different emotions and experiences. I, I, embrace it. And yeah, I mean, when you're thinking about the, these journeys, your experience of deconstructing one system and how that cracked open the ability to deconstruct so many others, that was something that was seen in my dissertation on relationship anarchy, is most people had deconstructed one thing, whether it was gender or sexuality or religion or trauma, right?

Disability. Once you kind of deconstruct one, you realize, "Oh my God, I was asleep at the wheel at this?" Mm-hmm. "What else is happening that maybe I don't even know yet," right? Yeah. And so I think that, that un- awakening process kind of... You know, if, if the Santa Claus isn't real, then is the Easter Bunny not real?

It's me. Oh my God, you know?

[00:49:51] Ryan: Yeah.

[00:49:52] Dr. Nicole: What else?

[00:49:52] Ryan: Well, and that whole it's not the fish, it's the water.

[00:49:55] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:49:56] Ryan: You know? Yeah. Like the system. You were talking about the systems earlier.

[00:49:59] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:50:00] Ryan: You know, we have the patriarchy and all the misogyny and all these different... Capitalism. I mean, you know- Yeah ... just name it, and how damaging those are to everybody.

[00:50:09] Dr. Nicole: Everybody.

[00:50:10] Ryan: Not just women, everybody. Everybody. Everybody suffers. And being able to go like, "Uh, you know what? I see through that. I see through what that is, and I can affect change around me, and I can affect change within me, and I'm gonna do that because I'm not willing to live..." Listen, I have an iPhone. I am a sheep, baa.

Like, you know, whatever, uh, in certain things. But when it comes to what I wanna do with my, with my life, with my relationships, with my community, within myself, I'm not gonna... I'm not buying what you're selling unless it's what I want- Mm-mm ... in the first place.

[00:50:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm-mm. Mm-hmm.

[00:50:49] Ryan: You know? That's just-

[00:50:50] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:50:50] Ryan: no. I don't wanna do it.

Yeah. And when I catch myself doing it, which I inevitably do-

[00:50:56] Dr. Nicole: Right ...

[00:50:56] Ryan: we have a talking to. You know? Like, I get a little- Yeah ... a little inner child work, or I just, you just talk to my shadow, or I talk to whoever, my s- future, my past self, whoever needs to get talked to. Yeah.

[00:51:07] Dr. Nicole: Exactly.

[00:51:07] Ryan: And that conversation about like, "Well, what do you really want?

What's going on?" What are you so afraid of?

[00:51:15] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[00:51:16] Ryan: Let's dig in. Let's see what you're afraid of, and then what?

[00:51:19] Dr. Nicole: Exactly.

[00:51:20] Ryan: And then what?

[00:51:21] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. And then what? And

[00:51:23] Ryan: you'll be

[00:51:23] Dr. Nicole: okay- Yeah ... no matter, like, right? Yeah. Like, and then I'll be fine, actually. Yeah.

[00:51:29] Ryan: That will suck, and I'll get through it. I've been through worse.

It's fine.

[00:51:35] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[00:51:37] Ryan: Facing those fears and facing that Uncertainty can be so terrifying

[00:51:45] Dr. Nicole: Yep

[00:51:45] Ryan: But if you can ask yourself, "And then what, and then what, and then what?" And you always get back to, like, "Maybe I'll be homeless, but I'll still be fine"

[00:51:52] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:51:53] Ryan: it's like, "Oh, okay. Well, all right then. I'll just-" Yeah, exactly.

"I'll just keep going," you know? Like, I don't have to- Yeah ... throw in the towel and just give up- Mm-hmm ... because

[00:52:03] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. Take time identifying the worst case scenario, and then what? Trust yourself. Who are the people that are gonna be there, or the people that you will meet? I think that's another thing along the journey.

So many people are like- Mm-hmm ... "Oh, I haven't found the right community. I haven't found the people." It's like, there's still so many people that you don't even know right now that are gonna love you. Yeah. Both of us, even, like, in our lives. Yeah. Like, we will still meet other people that we have yet to touch into, and so much more is possible.

Sometimes we just get so locked into the here and the now, right? Hence where I love you talking to your future self. I think that's so great to remember that- Mm-hmm ... there is a future where the reality is not the same one that's happening right now.

[00:52:47] Ryan: Right, and the, the idea of, like, that isolation, even from self.

Like, we don't just lock out other people. We lock ourselves out, and we don't... you know, we just blind eye. I don't wanna think about that. Yeah. That's too painful. Yep. I don't wanna touch it, and that is such a disservice to yourself, to the world, to y- the people around you. Mm-hmm. Because people, we act out what we feel, whether we want to or not.

Yep. We're doing it- Yep ... every day, so who do you wanna be, you know? Who do you, who, who do you want to look in the mirror and see?

[00:53:22] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. '

[00:53:22] Ryan: Cause it can be whatever you want. You have agency, and if you don't have agency, if, if someone is oppressing you, then look at your choices. Do you have a choice? Do you have a way out?

Do you have... Is there a lifeline you can take? Is there something- Mm-hmm ... you can do to give yourself agency?

[00:53:41] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:41] Ryan: You know? Mm-hmm. That is one of the things that I know about myself. Like, I have been victimized, but I am not a victim. I do not subscribe to the belief that I'm a victim.

[00:53:51] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:52] Ryan: No matter what happens to me.

If I get- Yeah ... victimized, it's different. I can be victimized without taking on the mantle of victim.

[00:54:01] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[00:54:02] Ryan: I just don't want it. I, I lived it.

[00:54:04] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:54:05] Ryan: It was tedious. It got boring. Right. Nobody wanted to play with me. You know, that goes in the shit can.

[00:54:12] Dr. Nicole: Right, right, right, right. That question of the locus of control.

Where is the power? Is it internally- Mm-hmm ... or is it externally, right? Right. And that will frame your whole life, and whether... Even if the power you have is literally just to, uh, extend your breath and slow it down, you know, regardless of the situation, to just I can control the breathing that I have right now, right?

In a world that is often so outside of our control, there are still pieces that we have. And I'm curious for you too, when you talk about who you wanna become and the communities you want to build and the expansive relationships, could you paint a picture for me and all of the listeners of what that community looks like?

What are some of the guiding visions, values, or principles that come to mind of what you're creating now and hoping to keep creating for yourself and for other people?

[00:55:06] Ryan: Well, I think one of the big prizes right now is, uh, legal recognition-

[00:55:11] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah ... of

[00:55:12] Ryan: diverse relationships.

[00:55:14] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:55:15] Ryan: Of course. You know, getting the legal representation, getting stuff through Congress that is- Yeah

that protects us, because right now non-monogamy is not a protected class. You can be- Right ... fired for having two partners. Um, and so that is, you know, that's a dream. That's a goal. Yeah, of course. And LoveFest, you know, we're, we're, right now we're focusing on the conferences. We're focusing on the education pieces.

But that is in the plan to get to become ad- you know, have that advocacy role- Good ... and, and be on the side of getting things done in that capacity. Uh, because I choose to be very open in my life, but that's a privilege. Right. People do not have that privilege. And so, uh, getting people to be able to be more themselves in every arena of their life is just, that's a, that's a goal, right?

[00:56:11] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:56:12] Ryan: And personally for me, I s- I still wanna work with people. You know, I, I'm not used to... Like, I don't like charging people. I just like doing it for fun and for free. I'll talk to anybody about their shit, you know? I, I just wanna help.

[00:56:26] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:56:26] Ryan: Um, and giving people all of that education, all those education pieces so they can do some introspection, see where those things fit with them, and making changes, shifts within themselves- Right

that feel more aligned with who they are.

[00:56:39] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:39] Ryan: Um, that, you know, that's a goal. Being open and, and, and free and, like, expansive in my own relationships is really- Yeah ... important to me. And getting there and being... There is a gap between my values and my nervous system.

[00:57:00] Dr. Nicole: Oh, I hear you.

[00:57:01] Ryan: What they believe. I hear you.

Yes. And so, you know, bridging that gap with exposure therapy and really digging in and thinking about it and writing about it and talking about it. I'm a verbal processor- Mm-hmm ... if you can't tell.

[00:57:14] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:57:14] Ryan: Just, uh, letting it, you know, just letting shit go. Like- Yeah ... what are you afraid of? What then? You know?

Um, being really curious about what the hell is going on. And making the changes that get me closer to who I wanna be ideally.

[00:57:33] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:57:33] Ryan: You know, that's a lifelong journey, and I'm on it, you know?

[00:57:36] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:57:37] Ryan: So- Mm-hmm ... those are, those are kind of the, the main things is, like, the advocacy piece, and the helping piece, and then the inner growth piece.

[00:57:46] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah. And so good that you have the balance of it all, right? Even just going back to what we talked about with the field of psychology, you're not just... You didn't answer that of, like, "Well, this is just what I wanna do for me." You brought it to the both sides, right? What you wanna do for yourself, and your community, and the world at large in that way.

And the personal is the political, so every time that we're showing up, it is rippling out in that way in ways that future generations will feel and see beyond what we ever even lived to know. And if you were to step into a moment of that future world where your nervous system and your values have gotten closer, what lives in that vision that you can tap into or feel?

[00:58:29] Ryan: I'm a relationship anarchist in my values. My practical living is... is not super anarchist, but I'm, I'm f- I'm working on it. And so being able to divorce the idea of, "This is my person," and into- Mm-hmm ... more of a expansive, like, "These are my people. These are..." Yeah. "This is my family that I, I treasure and value just as much as this one person," right?

Like, being- Mm-hmm ... more expansive in my, in my love, being more expansive in my touch, being more expansive in my-

[00:59:03] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:59:04] Ryan: beliefs and just everywhere I can. Inviting people in, getting... Having more community. I, I really love... We throw a lot of parties, you know? We do, you know, we do the LoveFests, the conferences, but there's a lot of parties in Phoenix that we throw because we wanna have a good time.

So, they're, like, themed and, like- Yeah ... you know, just silly. Like, you know, 100 people. We're doing a party Saturday- Yeah ... and there's gonna be, like, 100 people there and we're... It's J- Into the Jungle themed, so everybody's gonna be wearing- Great ... animal print. Whatever. You know, it's just a- Mm-hmm ... it's an opportunity- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

to get together, to meet new- Yeah ... experience new people, uh, bump into old people, you know, people that you know from before or whatever, and just have that breaking bread kind of- idea. You know? Like Brene Brown talks about she goes to church still, and she, she-

[00:59:55] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:59:56] Ryan: she's breaking bread with people that she does not like very much.

And, and- Mm ... she says, you know, "That's so important. It's so important to be able to see people as people, even if they're not aligned- Yeah ... with what I believe." Because everybody- Mm-hmm ... has a story. Everybody's an individual. Everybody has a past that brought them to where they are, and a belief system.

[01:00:16] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:16] Ryan: A lot of us have belief systems that were planted when we were young, and we've never challenged them. Oh,

[01:00:21] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[01:00:22] Ryan: So-

[01:00:23] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[01:00:24] Ryan: being able to get in there, do that work, and then, you know, show up to a party and have a good time with it, it's, you know- Yeah ... it's, it's this deep resonant belief and then, like, the proof, right?

So doing all this challenging work and then throwing a party about it-

[01:00:44] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[01:00:44] Ryan: there's, like, nothing better.

[01:00:46] Dr. Nicole: Right, and embracing the community, like you said. I mean, what a better world it will be when- When we hold more space and see our humanness- Mm-hmm ... yeah, across different views and perspectives, to actually honor that that's another human being across from you with just as much complexity and depth and feeling and care and emotion that you experience for yourself, even if they have a different perspective o- on the world.

Yeah. Right? And so to hold that, that, that's a whole other world of care and connection that I think would be very different than the world that we, we have now. And yeah, I mean, the, the practice of relationship anarchy is a practice, right? It's always, there's always gonna be more. So I hear you of saying, "I'm not there yet," and, and maybe that's mo- the most there thing to say- Mm-hmm.

Right ... about it, you know? Is like, "I'm not there," 'cause it's always the other world that we're- Yeah ... envis- envisioning out. But you have so many of the different, the values and the perspectives and wanting to hold that. I, I think one of the biggest things I keep learning to do, too, in my, my practice of, in the visions I wanna build is how do I honor that, l- kind of like you said earlier, right, my vision of what this looks like is gonna be different than my partner's or the people, my friends.

Mm-hmm. And in those moments when you get scared and you're like, "Wow, you're taking this in a different way with a different person, a different level of proximity or connection, whatever in our web than I ever pictured- Mm-hmm ... for myself, and it's making me feel uncomfortable." And, you know, we get to advocate for what we want and come together and, and really decide that as a community, right?

But just the letting go of control, that like, the vision I had for this is the vision I only had for myself, and now that I have multiple people in the web, they all have their own visions. And so there's like this big ego disillusionment- Mm-hmm ... of like, right, I had the vision, and that vision didn't yet take in everybody else's 'cause I didn't even know them yet.

Right. And now we're here, and I need to integrate and let go and surrender. Got it.

[01:02:48] Ryan: Mm-hmm. Again. Yeah.

[01:02:51] Dr. Nicole: Again. Here we are again. Yeah. Yay. And then there's a new human into the ecosystem. Yes. We're like, "Oh, here we go again"- Yeah ... you know? And...

[01:02:58] Ryan: It, you know, when we talk about Like hallucinogenics, right? Like when you see-

[01:03:04] Dr. Nicole: Yeah

[01:03:04] Ryan: the monster- Mm-hmm ... don't run away. Run at it. It's there to tell you something. Right,

[01:03:08] Dr. Nicole: right.

[01:03:08] Ryan: Like, when we see the challenges as just that, and we just run up. You know, we just get in there and start doing the work. It's so much easier than- Yeah ... running away. It's so much easier. Oh, yeah. It does not feel easier right when you're doing it, you know.

[01:03:25] Dr. Nicole: No.

[01:03:25] Ryan: It's scary to run at the monster, but you gotta do it. It's less work in the long run.

[01:03:31] Dr. Nicole: Right. Are you even practicing non-monogamy if you haven't had that moment where you go, "What the fuck is this? Why am I do-- Why am I? How did I?"

[01:03:39] Ryan: Yes. Monogamy would be so much easier. And then you take- And then you're like, "No, no,

[01:03:41] Dr. Nicole: no, no, no."

Yeah, exactly. If only I could go back. Mm-hmm. You know? But now I'm too awake. Mm-hmm. Oh, God. Like, I think all of us have had that moment where you're just like, "Oh, no, I'm here now, and now I, now I'm in it." But then, then you take a nap. Yeah. You have some food. Mm-hmm. You know, you, you rebalance, and then you have another day, and you kinda come back to it.

And, and then I think those moments, as you said, like titrating and exposure therapy, they do become smaller and shorter 'cause you, you really adjust- Yeah ... into this world where it's actually really beautiful that more people get pulled into the ecosystem. Look at, like, look at all the scenes we can create.

Mm-hmm. It's not all about the sex, but, like, look at all the scenes- Yes ... we can create. There's so much more possibility, let alone the emotional, the connection, the support with child-rearing. Like, all of the pieces. I mean- Yeah, there's just so much more possibility, I think, than either one of us growing up could have even imagined.

Absolutely. It was never in the storybooks, the, the romance myths, all the things. We never saw that, and that's why I think it's so powerful when people like you do say yes to coming onto the podcast and share. Like, "Here's my journey. Here's my vulnerable experience. Here's where I was absolutely terrified and wanted to drop out of all of it."

Mm-hmm. "And this is why I stayed, and this is what I feel, and this is the benefits I'm experiencing, and it's not over."

[01:04:59] Ryan: Yeah. Yeah. That's great. You know, I turned 50 last month, and wo- wow, I did not think I was making it to 50. Yeah. So it's pretty cool. Yeah. It's pretty cool. And I, and I, and I'm still young.

I'm still able-bodied- Mm-hmm ... mostly. Uh, and like- Yeah ... I have... There's so much more I can keep doing.

[01:05:21] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:21] Ryan: And I, I've been looking forward to leveling up to 50 for years. Like-

[01:05:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[01:05:27] Ryan: when I turned 30 it was like a drug. I was like, "Oh my gosh, I am so powerful. I can't wait to turn 40- ... and be even better." And you know, and then like I turned 40- Yeah

and my 40, my 40th birthday sucked 'cause I was getting a divorce. So I was like, "All right, when 50 comes- Yeah ... I'm hitting it hard."

[01:05:43] Dr. Nicole: This

[01:05:43] Ryan: is it. And, and I, and I have, and it's been wonderful. Yeah. You know, I have community around me, and my friend threw me a really beautiful party, and everybody showed up, and it was just really...

It's like, "Oh, here we are," you know? Mm-hmm. I, I haven't arrived completely- Yeah ... in my whatever, but I hope I never do. Like, the whole point is- Right ... to keep going, and the alternative is not. So-

[01:06:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[01:06:11] Ryan: you know, I'm, I'm, I'm digging it. I'm doing the thing and, like, being-

[01:06:15] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[01:06:16] Ryan: as active as I can and trying to stay- uh, youthful in my approach to life so that I don't get bogged down by old ideas.

Because- Yeah ... in non, in non-monogamy, we are always growing because someone always throws a curveball- Oh, yeah ... right? Like-

[01:06:36] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah ...

[01:06:36] Ryan: it never ends. It's wonderful.

[01:06:38] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And that's the gratitude you're gonna have on your deathbed of like- Yeah ... I lived. Mm-hmm. I didn't, I didn't back down from the fear.

I looked at it. I processed it. I cried with other people about it, and we kept going through it and got to- Mm ... this other place that I couldn't have even dreamed of. Right. And now that I'm here, there's more, right? Like, yeah, of course. Like, you're gonna get to that space feeling like you never backed down from, from fear and, and the unknown that so many people do choose that of like- Yeah

I don't wanna expand out. That's totally terrifying. I would, I would... Parts of me would have to die. Mm-hmm. Parts of my narrative would h- would have to completely change, and so we can understand and respect that. But, like, we are choosing to walk into that actively because we want to know what's on the other side.

And what I've found, it sounds like you've found, is freedom, possibility, connection, like- Mm-hmm ... just deeper connection and possibility.

[01:07:33] Ryan: Yeah. O- over and over again, and, like, a deeper community aspect. And, you know, they say monogamy in this economy. It's like, yes, for... Yes. Having... Living on a commune is definitely- We've been talking about it

[01:07:47] Dr. Nicole: Of course, of course.

[01:07:48] Ryan: Classic ... putting something together, you know? Yep.

[01:07:50] Dr. Nicole: Of course.

[01:07:51] Ryan: And, uh, you know, I think a lot of people out there are. Oh, yeah. It's, it, you know, cost sharing, family, you know, being able to help raise children.

[01:07:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:59] Ryan: All of that stuff is so important, and we've gotten so individualist, right? Yeah. Uh, you know, the nuclear family and all that stuff starting in the '50s, and I love how that's devolving- Mm-hmm

right back into the community space, the village space- Mm-hmm ... the like y- I don't just have one person and my kids. Like I've got- Right ... all of these people I can call on to help me when shit hits the fan, 'cause it always does. Mm-hmm. Life is just life.

[01:08:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:08:28] Ryan: And it never, you know, there, it never stops.

The tire always pops.

[01:08:32] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:08:32] Ryan: The shoelace always breaks.

[01:08:33] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:08:34] Ryan: You know, the oven catches fire, whatever. Like- Right ... and if you have, if you have one person you can call, if that person also broke a shoelace, or is having a bad day, or is just not available, you're kind of fucked. Mm-hmm. So, like, building a network-

[01:08:50] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely

[01:08:51] Ryan: is so important. And, you know, you talked about the death bed, and I, I, you know, when I think about that, when I think about the end, I know I'm not gonna be alone.

[01:09:02] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:09:02] Ryan: There's gonna be people shit-talking me till the moment I fucking die- Oh, yeah ... and I can't wait. Yeah. Like, I love it, you know? That's how, that's how we show love is- Yeah

just shit-talking each other. So, like, someone just making fun of me while I'm going, peace, you know? Like, just- Yeah ... that warms my heart to think about. So.

[01:09:19] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely Yeah, yeah. I know some people's fear point, uh, you know, around non-monogamy is like, "Yeah, who would be with me in my deathbed when I don't have the one person that's so committed to me?"

And it's like, you're gonna have more than one. How exciting. Mm-hmm. Whoa. You know? Mm-hmm. It's a party. Yeah. And then the reality of like even if you do pour all that into, you know, one person, um, people die, you know? You can- Mm-hmm ... that's not even guaranteed either. It's actually much more- Mm-hmm ... of a risky experience-

[01:09:52] Ryan: Yes

'cause

[01:09:52] Dr. Nicole: you, you've

[01:09:53] Ryan: got- It's all your eggs in one basket. Don't do that. We're taught not to put all our eggs in one basket. That's a saying for a reason.

[01:10:00] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:10:01] Ryan: You know? And, and that, that is true. And I mean, I would have stayed married forever in a monogamous marriage with that person. He was my person.

[01:10:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:10:10] Ryan: But it didn't work out. In the end- Mm-hmm ... it didn't work out. And then, you know, having to start over, it wasn't... I wasn't alone.

[01:10:19] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:10:19] Ryan: I already wasn't alone because I- Exactly. Yeah ... built that community, had, you know, all of the people that I had really close, especially women friends-

[01:10:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[01:10:29] Ryan: that just carried me through that, the whole thing.

Oh,

[01:10:32] Dr. Nicole: yeah. Right? Absolutely. Absolutely. And you get to be an example to all of that. It's... When I was first stepping up or stepping into exploring, deconstructing, and getting into this paradigm, I remember reading The Ethical Slut, and there was one case vignette sort of piece from some woman who basically was like, "Oh, I lived my life as an ethical slut."

I'm- I think it might've been, like, 80 or 90 year old, something in there. Um, and she talked about it. She's like, "You know, I chose this life, and I got to love expansively, and I had so many different people come through. And there were times where I was lonely, of course, yes, but I was always surrounded by so many people and experiences that I would've never done it any other way."

And I remember reading it, still being like, "Well, what is non-monogamy? Well, this is fascinating." And that story resonated so deeply because it was someone who was speaking from years of experience way down the line, right? So I'm just... I'm holding how much joy I have to have these sorts of conversations in a public way, right?

'Cause that, that piece that I was reading, I get it, I didn't get to see her face. Like right now, I get to see your face. Mm-hmm. I get to see your joy. I get to see all the- Yeah ... liveliness in your voice that comes with that. And so to think that your voice and story is rippling through maybe somebody else who's just still starting in this, and you're speaking to the community, the connection, the confidence you have, that on your deathbed you'll have so many other people with you.

Mm-hmm. That's so powerful to have space for. Yeah. We need more of that message rippling through the consciousness just to inspire as much as it did for me at the beginning of, "Oh, gosh, there is more that is possible than the typical white fence, sort of picket fence fairytale narrative." Mm-hmm. '

[01:12:15] Ryan: Cause white fences keep people out, and they keep people in.

[01:12:18] Dr. Nicole: Thank you, yes.

[01:12:19] Ryan: Like, they keep them separate, right? Yeah. They're just very, very unwelcoming.

[01:12:24] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, the invisible- So ... borders. The invisible borders. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[01:12:28] Ryan: Yeah, and loving expansively has been life-changing. You know, I, l- like I s- it started when I was really young. I took a break from it, but, uh, even when I was monogamous, I still had these gorgeous- Sure

deep, feminine relationships, you know, with other women that were just... I, I wouldn't say it was cheating, but they were so emotionally deep.

[01:12:51] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:12:53] Ryan: They were so raw and real and vulnerable that I was held-

[01:13:00] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[01:13:01] Ryan: the whole time. Yeah. You know what I mean?

[01:13:03] Dr. Nicole: Beautiful.

[01:13:03] Ryan: So yeah.

[01:13:04] Dr. Nicole: Good. So good. And may others feel that feeling just as much as you did, too.

[01:13:09] Ryan: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And to be able to be that person for other people-

[01:13:13] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah ...

[01:13:15] Ryan: is really, really important to me.

[01:13:16] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. Well, Ryan, it's been so beautiful to have you on the show today.

[01:13:23] Ryan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's been wonderful. Yeah. Great c- great conversation. Yeah.

[01:13:30] Dr. Nicole: Well, as we're coming towards the end of our time, I'll invite both of us to take a nice deep breath.

And I'll check in and see if there's anything else you wanna share with the listeners.

[01:13:46] Ryan: Oh, man, we covered a lot, didn't

[01:13:47] Dr. Nicole: we? We did, yeah.

[01:13:49] Ryan: Yeah. Uh, if you haven't been to a LoveFest event, come check out one of our conferences. I wanna say that because they are so much fun and so valuable- Mm ... especially if you need continuing education credits.

Uh, and it's a, you know, it's a party and a learning, and really, it's beautiful. It's a beautiful community experience, and we build it so that it can be made by the- Mm ... people who show up.

[01:14:13] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it was such a joy to attend. The disco night, we got the cuddle parties. Mm-hmm. Mm. We got lots of good energy- Yes

going on there.

[01:14:23] Ryan: Always something, yeah.

[01:14:24] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was such a joy. Yeah.

[01:14:27] Ryan: Love it.

[01:14:29] Dr. Nicole: Okay, Rian, well, the closing question that I ask everyone on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:14:40] Ryan: I think we kinda touched on it earlier. So when working with people for, you know, over two decades- Mm-hmm

one of the things that I hear, even if they don't say it out loud, is, "I'm afraid to die alone." Ah. "I'm afraid I'm gonna die alone." And the gift that I've been able to give those people is to, like, release that fear. You know, when I say gift I get to give those people, I get to, like, show them a mirror of what they can do themselves.

It's not... I don't give them anything. They- Right ... you know, they get what... They know... They remember what they already know-

[01:15:13] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Mm-hmm ...

[01:15:14] Ryan: which is that you can choose to build a life that means you never have to die alone, right? Because it's a little morbid, but, like, we all, you know, unless someone dies at the exact same time as us, we're going alone- Yep

even if we're surrounded by people. Right. The last step, you have to take that alone.

[01:15:33] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:15:34] Ryan: But you ha- you'll be carried all the way there if you do the work to build the community-

[01:15:40] Dr. Nicole: Yep ...

[01:15:41] Ryan: that can care for you, right? And just even if you feel like you're the only one that something has ever happened to, how many billions of people have there been on the earth since the beginning of time?

It's probably happened to someone else, and if you can find people with the same experience, and be honest- Yeah ... you can save each other's lives.

[01:16:00] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[01:16:02] Ryan: And you build those relationships that take you all the way to the end.

[01:16:05] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Yeah.

[01:16:08] Ryan: So, so being able to lose that one fear that everybody seems to have of, like, "I'm gonna be so lonely," you know, that soul-crushing loneliness that we just imagine for ourselves, being able to have people feel empowered-

[01:16:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm

[01:16:26] Ryan: to change that.

[01:16:28] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Mm-hmm.

[01:16:29] Ryan: That feels really important for people to know. Like- Everybody doesn't wanna die alone, so get together. Like-

[01:16:37] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah ...

[01:16:39] Ryan: you know what I mean? Like, we all have the same fear. Exactly.

[01:16:42] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:16:43] Ryan: So- Yeah ... why don't we do something about it together?

[01:16:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes, coming together and expressing the fear, like you said, because so many people are like, "Well, I don't wanna share that.

That's vulnerable. That will make me sound weak. I'm probably the only one," fill in the blank, all of those sorts of things, right? But your, your story is, is showcasing that in so many ways, the opening up to other people, opening up to me and the listeners, right? I know that this is going to ripple through so many consciousnesses who are hearing this, and having the same doubts or fears or traumas or experiences, and to feel like there is this person who is speaking to possibility, to connection, right?

That's only possible when you're vulnerable. You coulda came into this space and say, "I run these events. They're great. They're cool. Everything in my life is perfect, and, uh, yeah, come join," right? But that's, that's not real. Mm-hmm. It's not human- Yeah ... and that's not what people want. And so when you open up and say, "I'm scared.

I'm working through this. I messed up here," that's actually what brings the connection, because we all have been there. So it's like we, we- Mm-hmm ... have these masks, these facades, 'cause we're trying to maintain connection, but the more we open up, actually, the closer people can come to us and see us.

[01:17:59] Ryan: Right, and that, that, that beauty of being seen is what creates community- Yeah

right? Like, when you, when you have people of like mind, you have a collective conscious that you can grow from, and that you can use the power of to further yourself. Like, we go so much further together than we can go on our own.

[01:18:21] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:18:22] Ryan: So, like, gather. Make, make a community for yourself. If you- Yeah ... you know, if you need help building a community, go to lovefestevents.com and see what, you know...

Like, send us a message and be like, "Hey, I really wish I had some community in my town." The first thing we're gonna say is, "What have you done to try to make that happen?" Yeah. You know? Um, have you tried anything to make that happen? If you haven't, how can we help you get that started? You know, how can we help you start building that community?

Mm-hmm. Because I guarantee you there are people in your neighborhood- Oh, yeah ... who have the same desires as you.

[01:18:57] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yes.

[01:18:58] Ryan: And they, they're just like you. They're a little afraid to be the first one to say, "Does anyone else feel... Does anyone else s- see how stupid this is?" Like, does anyone see how lame it is to just live behind your fence and not connect?

Does anybody wanna shake it up with me? Yeah. You know? Nobody wants to be the first one to say it. I- Right ... I get told a lot, like, "You say things that we're all thinking-" "... and nobody wants to say," and I'm like, "Yeah. Life is short. I don't have time." You know, I don't have time to wait for someone else to say it 'cause I, you know, I do at the buffet table, like when there's one piece of food left, I, as a hostess, right, I throw parties and there's like one thing left.

I am not hungry. I don't wanna throw food away, but I don't know what to do with this one thing that no one would eat- Mm ... because it was the last one. Mm. It's like I, when I'm at a party and I'm not throwing it, and I see the last one, I eat it 'cause I wanna save that hostess that moment

[01:19:59] Dr. Nicole: of like-

[01:20:00] Ryan: Yeah, like what do I do with this?

what do I do with this one food? Like, this one thing, you know? And- Yeah ... so being able to just be bold, right? Mm-hmm. Take the risk. Mm-hmm. Do the thing. Mm-hmm. Say it out loud. See what happens. Mm-hmm. You know? And people don't say stuff because they think it'll make them die alone, and the, the opposite, like you said- Yeah

you know, that vulnerability is what draws people in.

[01:20:23] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm, 'cause we've all been there.

[01:20:26] Ryan: Yes. Yes, and we think we're... A lot of times we think we're the only one. It, just speak up, you know? Yeah. Speak out. You have a, you know, you have a place to go if you're a non-monogamous person or you are dealing with diverse relationship issues.

Mm-hmm. You know, y- you, you're a wonderful resource, you know, the, the podcast and, and your, your practices. LoveFest is a great place. You know? Mm-hmm. There's d- there's all kinds of different- Yeah ... conferences, kink conferences.

[01:20:56] Dr. Nicole: Oh, so

[01:20:57] Ryan: many.

[01:20:57] Dr. Nicole: And...

[01:20:58] Ryan: Yeah. Okay. Throughout the country. Like, just, you know, get up a incognito browser and just-

start googling, you know?

[01:21:05] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:21:06] Ryan: So no one can see your history and no one can judge you for being curious, which I think is, you know... Everybody should be curious all the time.

[01:21:15] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I mean,

[01:21:16] Ryan: um-

[01:21:17] Dr. Nicole: Heart of it all is connection and embodiment, you know? The heart of it all, truly. Yeah. All of those practice. Yeah.

Connection and embodiment, play.

[01:21:25] Ryan: Yeah. Passion and authenticity. And the internet, you know, gets, gets knocked for making us all feel more isolated, but at the same time, you can take a incognito search and find people who think like you.

[01:21:37] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:21:37] Ryan: Or do the things you wanna be doing.

[01:21:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:21:41] Ryan: You know? So there is, there is a good side of the internet where it can bring people closer together- Mm

without them having to really expose themselves to their community if they're not ready to do that, right? Right. Get on the internet.

[01:21:54] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And thank you for being on the internet with me now and co-creating- Yeah ... something that will live- Of course ... on the internet together.

[01:22:00] Ryan: That's wonderful. Yes, yes.

[01:22:03] Dr. Nicole: Oh, Ryan, well, it

[01:22:04] Ryan: was such

[01:22:05] Dr. Nicole: a joy.

Uh, thank you so much. Yeah, such a joy. Such a joy to hold conversations like this, and I, I couldn't do it without your vulnerability, so thank you for trusting me.

[01:22:11] Ryan: Of course.

[01:22:12] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. For all of the listeners who are now wanting to know, how can they learn more about LoveFest? Where would you direct them? How would they find you and your stuff?

[01:22:23] Ryan: LoveFestEvents.com, uh, is the website, and we have a hello@lovefestevents.com contact email, so we all get a little ding when it comes in, so we all get to see it and can direct you- Mm-hmm ... or help you find somewhere in your community to go or help you build something in your community.

[01:22:44] Dr. Nicole: Beautiful. Dear listener, I'll have all of that linked in the show notes below.

And again, thank you, Ryan, for coming onto the show.

[01:22:51] Ryan: Of course,

[01:22:53] Dr. Nicole: Rachel. Dear listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Modern Anarchy. Thank you for sharing this episode with your friends, with your lovers, with your community. Truly, it means so much to me, and I am so grateful that you are here. If you are wanting to release jealousy in your non-monogamous dynamics and step into compersion and pleasure-filled connection you can read my book, The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide, for free on my website.

There you will also find so many other free resources, including worksheets on how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non-monogamous dynamics and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure-filled sex and relationships.

So head on over to modernanarchypodcast.com to find all of those free resources and I look forward to seeing you next week.