293. The Set and Setting of Compersion in Non-Monogamy - Dr. Marie Thouin

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To start, really like the work of differentiating what is it that's simply been handed to me that I'm just taking for granted that I'm not even noticing because that's the air I breathe versus like what might be actually like truly, truly authentic to me.

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And one of the biggest takeaways I remember from our conversation is thinking about conversion as an ethic.

I can be having a lot of emotions and I can still show up in values alignment.

Because my question too is always with the one penis policy.

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Does that include dildo?

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Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring the sex, relationships and pleasure liberation.

I'm Doctor Nicole, I'm a queer, non monogamous psychotherapist and a provider of psychedelic assisted psychotherapy.

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I teach students from around the world how to craft pleasurable sex lives and non monogamous relationships.

Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.

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Today's guest is the powerful researcher Dr. Marie Tuan.

And one of the things that I love most about her work is this framework of conversion as a ethic, right?

So many of us are waiting for that embodied feeling of conversion.

1:39

But what if we actually looked at it as an ethic to practice?

I'm sure you've read the books, you've listened to the podcast.

Intellectually, you know, we're working to unlearn mononormativity, but the body, the body and its reach for safety and are unconscious it, it has a whole other experience.

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This is thousands of years of social and societal conditioning that's really impacting all of us.

And so we have to have that compassion for our embodied experience.

And I really think that grounding and conversion is something that is an ethic rather than waiting for that body experience as we're growing, as we're expanding is such a owerful invitation for you and for our communities.

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And we're going to get into that and so much more in today's episode.

And Jay listener, if you want to learn even more, I've got a full library, free resources on my website, modernanarchypodcast.com waiting for you.

All of that is in the show notes below.

2:41

And that's also where you're going to learn more about my upcoming group program.

This is my pleasure Liberation Sexuality program starting the first week of February, February 5th.

And this is a space for all of you activists who are ready to step into even more embodiment of your pleasure to shake off all of that shame.

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And one of my group members called it a positive peer pressure, you know, to step into even more of your expansion around your queerness and your sexuality and your joy and all of that is LinkedIn.

The show notes below if you want to join me and fellow students this upcoming February.

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And dear listener, please know that I'm so excited you were here and I'm sending you all of my love.

And let's tune into today's episode.

And the first question that I love to ask every guest on the show is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

3:39

Thank you so much, Nicole.

It's so good to see you again.

So I'm Doctor Marie Duan.

I have a PhD in East West psychology, which is a very interesting out-of-the-box field of study that spans different very diverse and multicultural lenses on human psychology, philosophy and spirituality.

4:05

And that really encapsulates my passions.

I've always been really passionate about human beings and how we operate and how we make sense of the world and more importantly how we relate and how we relate to each other.

4:22

So I would introduce myself as a passionate researcher of human relationships.

And to me the, you know, some of them more like juicy and interesting areas of human relationships are those that are not scripted or not inherited by default.

4:45

And consensual non monogamy is such a great area of interest for me personally and professionally because these are kind of relationships that we don't just inherit as a default or as a script.

5:01

Right.

We have to enter them very intentionally with a lot of self discovery, self understanding, presence, attention, you know, values, alignment and how wonderful to apply all of these qualities to our relationships.

5:22

You're in the right place.

Yes, I'm.

Very excited and I think it really connects to the topic of anarchy as well.

Yeah, I'm so curious for you with East West, I imagine they got into cross cultural perspectives on relationships cause for contacts for you and the listeners.

5:42

My degrees in clinical psychology, which does not really get into that very well.

That's a whole other podcast.

But I'm curious like did you get some cross cultural perspectives in your training?

5:58

I imagine with the East West I it's probably more prevalent.

Yeah, we did.

We did not study human relationships or sexuality very much, but we did, you know, compare many philosophies like Western mysticism, Eastern philosophy and religion, indigenous traditions, transpersonal psychology, which is a Western approach, but expanded, expanding our vision of science.

6:29

So we just really looked at life and the understanding of the world from many different perspectives, which just that is a great habit, a great mental habit to take.

It's like, OK, there's not just one way to look at this.

6:45

I'm sure of that.

I'm not sure of what might be the best way in this moment, but at least I don't feel pigeonholed in one way of looking at things.

Right, exactly.

And I feel like with sex and relationships, that's one of the biggest things is looking at different cultures around the world currently and historically.

7:03

And then that is such an eye opener to oh, wow, we are such products of our environments.

We are relational beings.

And so when you tap into wisdom of other cultures, you're like, oh, it's 'cause I was born and got it.

OK, OK, That's like light bulb moment number one, right?

7:22

I'm just like, oh, got it.

Download, download.

Totally just realizing how much of who we are and how we show up in relationship and in the world and in our work and everything has been handed to us.

7:39

And to start, really like the work of differentiating.

What is it that's simply been handed to me that I'm just taking for granted that I'm not even noticing because that's the air I breathe versus like what might be actually like truly, truly authentic to me and who is me, You know, like, just like peeling back the layers.

8:03

I I feel like I've done this work for like my whole life of 41 years and I feel like I'm just starting at the same exact time.

I hear you, I hear you, but it gets richer each time, like each day gets more authentic and I really appreciate that part of the journey.

8:21

But I I hear you everyday it's like, oh, there's another thing I did.

Oh, oh, there's a oh, another.

OK, yes, yeah, I was just last week in my pleasure liberation sexuality program.

I was teaching on, yeah, this exact topic truly of with our sexual desires.

8:38

And I had used, you know, a scale picture and something a balancing scale.

I'm just trying to invite people to, you know, not beat yourself up when you find out how much the systems have influenced you, but rather that like critical balance between the two of like, hey, this is my innate desire and this is what really turns me on.

8:58

I'm really craving this in my body, my mind, my heart and my soul.

And then the other side, which is, oh, that's the systems, right, because it's always going to be in flux.

So how can we maintain that balance between the two and be compassionately curious about what is impacting us?

9:17

Yes, Oh my gosh, Because it's so easy to beat ourselves up and think like, Oh my gosh, I've been lying to myself this whole time and I've been lying to others this whole time.

You know, like, we have to have compassion in this work because otherwise we're just going to be, you know, freaked out by it and ultimately, we're not going to have a liberating process.

9:41

Right.

Exactly, exactly.

And so where does non monogamy come in for you in terms of your research and your work?

When does that start to come online?

So when I was in college back in Canada, where I'm from originally, I remember starting my dating life with this very expanded, you know, like way of being, wanting to date a lot of people and fall in love with a lot of people.

10:09

That was kind of my natural inclination.

And then I was confronted with mononormativity.

I was able to look at it straight in the face, you know, when I would say to someone like, oh, I would really like to make out with you.

10:25

And they would say, well, I would like to, but I can't because I have a girlfriend.

That would be like, OK, that's great for you, but what does that have to do with me and with us in this moment?

I don't get it.

10:41

Or it just like it didn't make sense to my system.

Yeah.

And I went on to just really being curious about why do people default to monogamy?

And you know, like, what is this program that we've, you know, like, but most of us has, you know, like kind of downloaded into our system to the point where it just feels like the air we breathe and who are the people that live outside of that?

11:11

I was always really curious about non monogamous communities and people.

And, you know, how do they make it work within a system that just promotes monogamy is the only way to be so when I moved to the San Francisco Bay Area.

11:28

There it is.

I was exposed to a lot more examples and I started a PhD, you know, in East West psychology.

And I just knew that I wanted my research to be about non monogamy.

11:45

And I wanted to, you know, like find out more about what is it that really makes it work?

Like what is the secret sauce or what, what is the difference between non monogamy that ends in disaster and heartbreak?

And you know, like the stereotypes that I was always hearing about, about non monogamy doesn't work ever.

12:07

And the cases where it does work, where love prevails and it seems like a very healthy ecosystem of people, and, you know, where ultimately it has longevity and sustainability and, you know, it just feels really good.

So I went to a conference in 2014 called The Future of Monogamy and Non Monogamy, Berkeley, CA.

12:32

And that's where I first encountered the word conversion.

And the light bulb went on.

I was like, oh, that's a really important concept.

And I want to know what it is, what people mean by it and what it takes to cultivate it and what it takes for conversion to emerge.

12:53

Like is that an innate thing in people?

Is that a contextual thing?

Like is that cognitive?

Is that emotional?

Like what is it and when does it show up?

So that was my trajectory in terms of my doctorate research.

13:11

Such an important conversation and this is your second time on the show, dear listeners.

So if you want to go back and there are more episodes with Doctor Ritu and, and one of the biggest takeaways I remember from our conversation is thinking about conversion as an ethic.

13:28

Because I know that, especially even in my own journey at the beginning and still even now at different moments, it's it's much better now, let me tell you.

But at the beginning, it felt like tapping into that felt so unnatural.

You know, my stomach is turning with fear and all of these emotions.

13:46

How could I ever get to conversion?

And I think the framework of thinking of it as an ethic really gives you a lot more runway to start to feel into it as a value and something that you practice rather than just this innate thing that comes over you.

Right, Right.

14:04

It gives you so much more agency and more flexibility in terms of how conversion might actually manifest and show up and be expressed.

Yeah, and I actually had recently a lovely conversation with Evita Sires, a wonderful polyamory, polyamory and non monogamy content creator, about what it means to practice a compression ethic.

14:28

So that's on my YouTube if people are interested in that beautiful rabbit hole.

Yeah.

And I think that when we're talking about the set and setting and bringing those two frameworks together, right, for the listener who's not familiar with that terminology, the set and setting language comes from the psychedelic community, right?

14:48

In terms of, you know, the drug itself does not make or break the trip.

Sure.

Ketamine is different than MDMA, which is different than psilocybin, you know, in terms of what it's doing to the brain and the body and all of those things, yes.

But the psychedelic trip, right?

You, as you know, someone who works with clients who have explored so many different psychedelics, I'll have one client come in and say this drug was the worst experience of my entire life and I will never do this drug again.

15:17

And then it's like straight up next session, I'll have a client come in and that drug was so spiritual and so beautiful and I had such a great time on it.

And you know, you're just sitting in between, you're like, OK, it's not the drug, right?

Like it is the sun setting of the drug where you take it and all of that, right?

15:33

And so in terms of what that means, dear listener, the the set refers to the mindset.

So all the things that are going in the internal, your landscape, your thoughts, the narratives.

And then the setting is everything on the external, which is where you're taking the drug, where it's all happening, the cultural narratives, all that sort of stuff.

15:53

And then as a relational psychotherapist, I always think about how the self is constantly in relation.

So even that really harsh distinction of internal external is somewhat relative because of course, the internal is framed by the external.

16:13

That is literally in my slides when I teach on this, I use like an Infinity symbol and it's just, Oh my gosh.

So just that's just exactly what it is.

It's like, how long do we have to talk about this topic?

I could get, and that's we have to talk about that part too, right?

It's like the internal is shaped by the external.

But.

16:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So for you, I'm so curious were you like how do you see those concepts connected for conversion and sun setting?

Yeah, it's so wonderful to use that framework for conversion because though what I found in my research and what I articulate in my book, which is called what is conversion?

16:50

Understanding positive empathy in consensually non monogamous relationships.

The bulk of it is about what are the factors that promote conversion in non monogamy and what are the factors that hinder conversion.

So it creates a road map to put the chances on our side to have a good trip with non monogamy.

17:14

Cause ultimately I think conversion, even though I think I should probably premise with saying that conversion, it's not just an emotion, you know, like it can be a set of thoughts, behaviors and attitudes.

And that's where also it connects to, it can be an ethic, it can be something that we practice as an orientation towards our relationships.

17:37

So it can be emotional and embodied, but it doesn't have to be.

So that's a very important distinction that came up in my research.

But really I think the idea of, you know, when conversion is present, whether it is the more cognitive kind or the emotional kind, it does lead to a much better trip.

18:00

So the factors that I found as promoting conversion, I think can really map well onto the idea of set and setting, because some of them are naturally more internal factors and some of them are more environmental and relational and social factors.

18:19

So it works perfectly.

Absolutely, absolutely.

For my e-book, I took the different side where I came into like how is set and siding with jealousy like so we got the you and I have the opposite sides of like how do we get conversion?

And I was like, how do we get rid of jealousy?

Yes, that's because that's, I feel like that's the big thing is like so many people, you know, I know you probably have experienced this, I've experienced this.

18:44

When you come into people who don't practice no monogamy, the first thing we always hear is I could never do that.

I'm too jealous really.

This is the first thing.

So that's why this is such an important conversation.

And So what are some of the factors that you've seen in your research really do contribute to comparison?

19:07

So #1 is actually the mindset.

So the mindset with which someone comes into non monogamy, are they actually aligned with non monogamous values and principles?

Do they enter non monogamy because that's really true for them and because they really want to and they believe that it is a positive choice versus feeling like they've been dragged into it and they don't fully believe in it, but they're trying to maybe please a partner or, you know, retain a relationship and they are torn about it or they're really carrying a lot of internalized mono normativity.

19:49

So this mindset piece is more of that cognitive, you know, like what paradigm am I embodying as I'm coming into this?

So that really fits well with the set of conversion.

20:07

Yeah, because there are so many people where someone falls in love with somebody else, wants to open up the relationship.

One partner does not.

And then yeah, that can be a completely different experience than two people who meet each other already practicing non monogamy or two people who at the same time come into that space of hey, I think we should do this for our relationship or whatever structure, right.

20:31

All of that really creates such a different framework.

And I feel like one of the biggest pieces for that mindset too is your community, right?

This is the self and relation part because when all of your friends are practicing non monogamy, it's pretty common.

You feel normal that you see your friends having.

20:48

You know, I've gone to beautiful polyamorous weddings where everyone's a part of the ceremony, right?

Like, yeah, like baby showers, all of the partners are there, right?

And so like, I've been able to see these different moments.

And for me now it feels like, oh, OK, yeah, this is what I do.

21:03

But coming from where I did before and the Christian very purity culture thing, it felt so foreign.

So my frameworks for all of this, I had no framework to it.

So the the community structures that you're in are so deep in terms of the framework and mindset that you come into that experience with.

21:24

Absolutely.

And that is also a great example of like where the set and setting actually really interact with one another because the community, you know, like the community that surrounds us is one of the factors that promote conversion.

And we could say this is the setting.

21:41

This is the kind of external environment in which we're having this personal, you know, trip of non monogamy and experiencing everything that comes in.

And it's really helps facilitate our experience if the community is strong and supportive and validates our identity as non monogamous.

22:04

But it also really impacts our mindset, like it reinforces certain values or certain experiences, and also the experience of jealousy not being something that must be avoided at all cost, like we would think of in mononormative settings, but something that can be normalized and used for our own growth.

22:29

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, growth is always uncomfortable.

Let's just turn that right.

Like I don't know what experience of growth has just been like ease and just so comfortable, you know, because you're, you're shattering your concept of self every time you're growing, right?

22:44

Like you're shattering into a new person every time, right.

So that that mind trip is always, always uncomfortable.

I remember my mom told me that when my sister was first born.

You know, very common experience.

23:00

I'm sure you've heard this just like really not put her back in your belly I.

Refuse.

You know, like, Oh my gosh.

I did not want to share, you know, obviously I love my sister and it's all beautiful now, but I've adapted, you know, but there's so many people who speak to the non monogamy experience in a similar way, right?

23:20

Like you stretch into having more capacity for more love and connection.

And once you realize the system is stable and safe, right?

So as a kid, you just kind of keep going.

You're like, oh, wow, I'm still adequately loved.

And also there is that line on the other side, right?

23:36

If you start having, you know, X amount of kids, you know, 1013, especially in this economy, wow, like wow, 10 like crazy.

You know, wow, there is a finiteness to our time and energy, right, and those resources.

And so we're always kind of playing with that because I feel like that's a common thing people say in the non monogamy cube and it's like, oh, it's like having multiple kids.

23:56

And it's like, right, it is like having multiple kids.

So if you have to gift.

Yeah, hopefully you have the resources and the availability and the bandwidth to actually show up for all these kids slash partners.

24:12

Right, right.

And so the partner contacts, they're not dependents.

So then that's where we have to have the skills to be able to communicate, Hey, this is the capacity that I have right now in my current world and what I envision, you know, of how often I could see you, the depths of where I could go.

24:27

These are the things that I'm carrying.

And I feel like that's a huge scale in terms of conversion.

It is for me, it's much easier to step into that when someone has that clarity and they can come to me and be like, this is my relational world.

This is what I think I can start to like build with you.

24:43

And this is where I think we could go with this.

And obviously the reality is that consent is ongoing.

So this the systems can always kind of fluctuate over time.

But when someone has that awareness of their capacity, Oh, my nervous system already starts to drop into ease, like making conversion that much more accessible because I know this person is taking a really good care of their garden, to use another metaphor that's very common in our communities, right?

25:11

Like they know how many resources they have and the time they have, and they will water this accordingly.

And so I could trust to build something.

And so when they're exploring things with other people, I trust that they have that same level of awareness to hold the connection.

Yeah.

25:28

And actually I think that connects to the second factor that promotes conversion, which is inner security and also self-care, kind of like what is your state of availability and inner strength and inner sense of capacity and self worth coming into non monogamy.

25:48

So I think you know, like the concept of the garden really applies here.

It's like, what are you coming in with internally?

And I've had so many people tell me about, like, how it can fluctuate quickly.

Like, let's say you had a great night of sleep and a beautiful meal and things are going well at work and you're feeling good.

26:08

You're feeling strong.

Compulsion might feel so much more accessible than if you're sleep deprived and you just, you know, like had a big, you know, like a big work challenge.

Or if you are not feeling well physically for any reason, like, all of that will impact your capacity to actually feel generous and to want to share and to feel empathetic.

26:35

And it doesn't mean that we should just focus on, like, what we can't do.

But if we are, you know, really thinking about like, what is the optimal set and setting here, coming in with that sense of, you know, having your own individual needs met will make it so much more accessible, you know, to to have that positive empathy, to have that conversion.

27:00

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

And that's where I think the consent piece around communication can be so important because I'm remembering a time where I was early in my non monogamy journey and this was the first time that one of my lovers was exploring with somebody else.

27:19

And I think the first time someone that you're really connected to does do that, the more times it gets easier, right?

You expose your therapy, you titrate, you feel good and it takes some time, right?

The first time can be really challenging, especially if you're early in this journey.

27:34

And I remember he called me to tell me about a date he had gone on 30 minutes before I recorded a podcast.

I had to cancel that.

I just, I just fell to the floor and I just started sobbing and I was like, Oh my dude.

27:52

Like like totally like, OK to, you know, like go on the date, have a great time.

But he like called me to tell me about it.

I was just like, you did what with this thing that I totally said you could do?

But like, now that I'm hearing about it, I don't feel very good.

And I just like, yeah, started crying.

28:09

I was like, I'll give you a call back in a second and I have to e-mail.

I kiss guess I was like, I don't think I'm going to make it.

I'm so sorry.

Like we have to have a discussion of like do not do that 30 minutes before I pouch.

28:26

Timing.

The time, this is not the time because I'm like in ready to go mode and this is really intense to take on, right?

And so the timing of it, yeah, if you're really tired, if you're really hangry, right?

Like these are not the times.

And also, you know, again, like if my partner would do that now 30 minutes before our podcast, I'm sure I'd be like, dope, that's so cool.

28:47

I'm glad you had three orgasms.

Like, that's so great, you know?

But like, things have changed now.

So it's also that ongoing consent about it is, you know, can change.

You got to check in with the people.

If you love of like, when is the right time to talk about this?

How much detail, What's the consent of the other people involved with that?

29:06

All of those things are like such big pieces, I think for conversion because it's about the nervous system safety, truly, Yeah.

Yes, yes, yes.

It's so much about context.

Just like, you know, if you're gonna drop acid, maybe not 30 minutes before work.

29:22

Yeah, unless you're a painter, which in that case, yes, what a cool canvas you're gonna make.

Exactly.

You know, you know, totally.

It's like creating containers around, you know, whether it's like picking a psychedelic or actually practicing non monogamy can bring in so much safety and so much of a sense of groundedness containment that, you know, can really lead to the emergence of compression much more easily than if you're feeling like ungrounded and the timing isn't right and things feel jerky.

29:58

And creating containers and rituals is a very powerful practice.

And it's so nice, on a personal note, to be having this conversation because when I was first training in psychedelic assisted therapy, first trying no monogamy and 1st writing my dissertation on relationship anarchy, it was an intense come up.

30:19

You know, So like, to have this conversation now, like years later, and like, be in conversation with you, a fellow expert in the field and like, sitting with this, it's like, yeah, I was grappling with all these ideas at the time, but it's such an intense time.

And you really have to give yourself time to digest all of this.

30:34

It's a full, you know, Jessica Fern talks about as like a paradigm shift, right?

And it fully is.

And in your psychedelic journey is part of the big thing too, is that integration that you do in the years to come after that experience, even because there's still so much mind paradigm, story bending that's happening.

30:52

And one of the other factors, when I think about you said competence of self, I think the narratives around gender are such a big one because I'm sure you've seen this experience, this where it can feel really easy to have conversion for different gender partners, right?

31:09

In terms of if your partner's exploring to someone that does not have the same gender as you, it's, it's almost as if it doesn't tap into the same threat of the narrative of the placement that we have in the storyline of the romance myth.

But when it comes to someone with my same gender, I'm like, oh, we're gonna take my spot.

31:31

She's gonna take my spot, right?

Whatever that is.

And it's it's, it's often not even that conscious, right?

But we can just feel it where it's like, I'm cool if if you hang out with those people, but this one absolutely not.

Absolutely, Yeah, Yeah, yeah.

And I mean, there's such, you know, like, of course, like critique of people who practice A1 Venus policy in hetero relationships.

31:55

And of course, you know, like, I think that's so valid.

And there's so much of our patriarchal conditioning baked into that policy that many people are tempted to make.

And I do have compassion for people who are tempted to make that policy because it is, you know, like such a different embodied experience.

32:15

You know, when some, when your partner wants to date someone of the same gender and the conditioning that we have around patriarchy and male competition and female competition, like all of that, it's easy to point out, it's easy to realize what it is intellectually, But it takes a while to undo that, then unwind that at the nervous system level.

32:39

It takes a lot of dedication, a lot of willingness, a lot of support, a lot of community, You know, like it's, it's easier said than done.

Because my question too is always with the one penis policy.

Does that include dildo?

No, that's a good question.

32:58

I would call that training wheels.

I'm weird.

There's a lot of strap on sex and play.

Like what does that count?

I don't know, you know, like I don't have that conversation.

That's important.

Yeah, and I know too, like some of the things I have written about and talk about are like the relationship to challenge, right?

33:20

Because that's an internal mindset thing.

You can, you know, be secure in who you are.

And then when you're coming into growth edges and challenge, how do you look at that?

And that's where I think it can mirror so many different areas of your life, right?

Like as a rock climber, I'm always thinking about or noticing the thoughts in my head and how it mirrors different areas of my life of whether I think I can do this or whether I'm going to panic and start shaking and say no, I'm not going to time anymore, right?

33:46

Oh.

My gosh, yeah.

And so I think that's such an important thing, too, for all the listeners to think about in terms of when you have challenge in your life, what's the narrative?

You say I'm going to climb that wall.

I'm scared anyways and I'm going to do it.

Or do you say I don't know about that and walk away?

34:05

And then how is that maybe going on in your relationships?

I've worked with some couples where, you know, one partner really wants to open up and the other is like and kind of just stay in this sort of lock system that can be really tough.

Absolutely and actually that's a good segue to the third factor that I think fits into the set of conversion.

34:27

The mindset is, you know, the perception of benefits that one might actually receive from non monogamy.

And I think it connects to the theme of challenge because people who in a way kind of enjoy a challenge or typically people who feel like they're going to benefit from overcoming that challenge.

34:47

Because I mean, there is kind of a human condition that says like, you know, I'm not going to go and challenge myself if there is no point, if I'm not going to benefit from this.

But, you know, if there is a benefit, whether it's, Oh my gosh, I'm going to feel so strong, I'm going to feel like a badass or I'm going to win something and I'm going to win a prize, right?

35:07

My life is going to get better in some way.

Then it makes sense to go and invest energy into something that's challenging and, you know, inherently a little bit unknown.

Right, exactly.

So when I work with my coaching clients, often times I'll ask them to write a list of what are the benefits for you of non monogamy?

35:33

Like, you know, I've been, if they come in, you know, with a lot of fear and suspicion or discomfort around their partner dating someone else, I'll ask them to really dig deep and say like, in what ways does that benefit you or might or could that benefit you?

35:52

Because you have to have that kind of motivation, even if it's just like it could benefit me if I found a way to overcome my jealousy in this moment and I could potentially like love more and love bigger and I would learn a new internal skill.

36:10

It doesn't have to, you know, it doesn't have to be like, oh, it benefits me because then I feel less guilty when I'm dating other people otherwise, you know, I mean, although that can be a good reason too.

It can really be like one of the benefits and it can be a big benefit to also like not feel like you have to fulfill all of your partner's needs.

36:31

And you don't have to feel like this kind of pressure, but a lot of people just feel like, you know, like the benefit is that I get to have less walls, less conditions to my love.

36:46

And that is the most amazing kind of authenticity building benefits.

Of all.

Yeah, absolutely, Absolutely.

I'm reminded of my conversation with Doctor Jolie Hamilton to the podcast, and she's like, I did it for the sex.

37:04

And I was like, yes, thank you, Doctor.

Jolie like we're.

Going for it like yes, yes, the love piece too, but I love, I love a strong woman who can come out and be like, I wanted to have more sexual freedom.

I'm like, oh, my ancestors are so proud.

37:20

You know, they might be a little scared, actually.

They might be a little like, oh God, are we going to be killed for saying that?

Nope, not in 2026.

We've got our own shows, you know, we got our own shows, you know, like, it's amazing.

Yeah.

37:36

I'm curious.

I have so much that I think I want to slow down for both of us with that one in terms of sharing, you know, a bit of our personal experiences of what we do enjoy out of this process.

I'm curious for you what would have been your benefits, the reason why for your non monogamy?

37:55

Yeah, I would say #1 it's simply a sense of integrity.

Yeah, absolutely.

Because I've always felt inherently non monogamous.

So it's just like, you know, someone who knows that they're queer and they are raised in a, like, in a heteronormative society, Like, what is the benefit of having queer relationships?

38:19

Part of it is just to feel like, oh gosh, I get to be true to myself even when times are hard.

I would rather feel like I actually belong in my life rather than feel like I'm playing a role that doesn't feel like me.

So that's probably like the biggest one.

38:41

And then I think that's another one is just like to feel into the abundance and the freedom of life, you know, like sexually and emotionally and socially.

Like I'm an extrovert.

Yeah, I I mean, I love to have a lot of friends, a lot of communities.

38:59

And so non monogamy just makes sense to me.

Like even, you know, I've had parts of my life that were monogamous and parts of my life that were non monogamous.

But even in the monogamous periods, I've always wanted to feel that I had a choice, that it was not something that was imposed on me, that was not something that, you know, was just like something that I had to do where the door was always open.

39:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I love grounding that in integrity.

Such a powerful place to start that answer in terms of I've always had these longings and this is a way for me to live that with integrity, honesty, clear communication to all the people in my world.

39:52

Such a powerful place to start.

And yeah, it reminds me one of my guests, an episode that's coming out right now.

So when you tell me many months now when this comes up, but one of my guests, we were talking about relationship anarchy and and he was saying the same thing, like it's a way to live in integrity with your desires.

40:11

And I thought that was so profound.

And some of the different people that I've interviewed around relationship anarchy have really talked about it as almost like increasing the hue and the saturation of the picture of life, right?

We're like.

If we thought previously in a paradigm of just one relationship, right, like this is the person I love and this is everything right here to see how there's so many different connections around you and ways and variations of love.

40:39

It just really amplifies the hues and anything running with the depth of the site.

You know, psychedelic metaphor.

There you go.

We talk about no monogamy as a non specific amplifier, right?

Because in the psychedelic experience, when it's a non specific amplifier, meaning like you can have the most challenging trip to the most beautiful trip and it will amplify all of it.

41:00

And now monogamy is very similar, right?

The hue, the saturation, when you go and you have a date and you get to kiss 345 people goodbye and that's totally normal and everyone's really happy.

It feels so good.

You're like, wow, like we're all doing this.

41:17

And then when there's conflict and you're like, Oh no, there are so many people that are upset with me right now, that can feel really intense, right?

And again, you, the psychonaut gets there, gets their feet, the nominogamous.

Person.

Gets their feet mits you and you learn and you get lots of skills and muscles.

41:36

But you know, the intensity of those states can be so much.

Yeah.

I think in terms of my own nominogamy journey, it's I, I really love to ground it into the freedom of choice, you know, like I, I feel so, you know, I came so much from the sexuality space and really working with sexual assault survivors and working with my own journey and really wanting to find liberation in that space.

42:04

And and when working in the sex trauma space takes you pretty directly to sex positivity, which then takes you pretty directly to not monogamy.

So it's like a pipeline, you know, straight up.

I was like, oh, got it.

Hello.

And I feel so free in my body when I can have partners where we don't have sex for months, years.

42:34

And that doesn't take away any of the depth of a connection.

And I know that they have the freedom to explore everything that they want, as do I, right?

And that's not to say there might be pain in that complexity and that again, that's what Doctor Jolie was talking about in her relationship.

42:49

Just the pain of these like times where even in non monogamous structures there can be imbalances between sex drives and other sorts of things, right?

So I've gone through that with the different people that I love, but just the freedom to have sex, not as the center point of the relationship and then to also have the freedom for them to explore and for me to explore it.

43:08

Just I didn't know what weight that was carrying inside my body of feeling responsible when you get into that sort of dyadic lock where like, if I don't want to have sex, I'm also taking that away from somebody because that's the commitment, right?

43:23

And so like, right, I had no idea how much that was in my body until I got to the space now where I'm like, one of my favorite times is one of my lovers.

You know, we were set to go to a play party and I was too exhausted, just too exhausted.

And I was like, you know what, you should go to the play party.

43:39

I'm just going to hang out here.

And she and then she came back and we snuggled and it was great.

Like I love that freedom where she just feel like.

Yes.

Just go I'm I'm going to watch a movie like.

Yes, yes, yes.

Like you don't have to feel that pressure of being everything to her.

43:57

Yeah.

Sexually or socially or emotionally, What a relief.

I know, I know.

But my younger self would be like, that's so scary.

How am I important if I'm not that Doctor Marie?

Like how am I important if I'm not that?

Right.

Oh my gosh, what a great question answer.

44:16

My younger self.

My younger self is crying in the corner.

Please help.

I also love the term incommensurability.

To me that is one of the keys of compression.

Incommensurability means that people are intrinsically non comparable, intrinsically unique, intrinsically whole and bring something different to the table.

44:43

But when you look at partners and people from that lens, well, we are not replaceable.

What you bring is what you bring and what the matter partner brings is what the matter partner brings.

So I think just really like connecting to our own uniqueness and wholeness and, you know, like bringing that kind of intrapersonal awareness and like solidity into our relationships.

45:16

Again, that's easier said than done, but that is the idea of, you know, not feeling like we have to be needed and indispensable in order to be valuable.

45:32

And like you said, that's a practice to get to that state where you can really feel that behind you.

I have my post it note awful, like different quotes and things and one of them is there is no competition.

And I had to repeat that to myself.

45:48

I don't know how many times.

And even now, you know, like there are moments where the fear comes in like I don't I think it's important that we don't ever talk about this is something where it's like, oh, now I've like completely transcended delicacy, you know, like it, it does get better.

I think that is an important message.

46:05

It does absolutely transform and get so much better and easier.

And also human beings, when we get jealous about different things, the thing that will make you jealous or change now, it might not be the orgasm or the date or the flowers, It might be something else, right?

46:21

But for me, I had to keep that like a mantra.

There are many mantras and intentions, you know, which we do in psychedelic journeys too, because there's lots of ways and it gets very scary sometimes depending on how high the dose is, you might not know who you are anymore, which I think relationship anarchy took me for that ride pretty fast because I I don't do the normal, the normal in our community.

46:45

Some of the normal thing is like, let's open up, let's do the Unicorn problematic, but let's do the Unicorn.

Let's start dating couples, let's swing.

Why don't we do like these very structured clear roles of primary and get into that and then like, oh, OK, right.

So I didn't to start in that place.

47:02

I was like non hierarchy.

Going to the deep end.

So the mantras were really helpful because I would just walk around like I'd go for a walk and just be like, there is no competition.

I am unique, the other person is unique.

47:19

It's OK, it's OK.

But then the thought and it's just like there is no competition.

I'm unique and I like to follow that up with and the people who want to be with me will be with me.

There is no cage you can put around those people to think, oh, if I just lock them like this, they'll forever be with me.

47:40

And if that's the case, that's where resentment builds and I don't want that kind of relationship in my life.

So it is this like really deep surrender.

Just be like there is no competition.

The people who want to be with me will be with me and I cannot control them if they want to leave and I will be OK on that other side if they do.

47:59

Yeah, yes, I only want to be with people who really want to be with me for who I am, not just because I'm somehow indispensable, because I fulfill so many of their needs and now they're addicted to me.

48:15

Yes, yes, that's very, very real.

Do they see you for you versus the need fulfillment of all that?

Yes, exactly.

When I think about the people that I absolutely adore and really want in my life, they're not the people who fulfill all of my needs, you know, like they're people who I just adore because of who they are and the joy that they bring, the insight, the relationality, the, the chemistry.

48:53

They, you know, I'm, I, I wouldn't want them to try to mold themselves to be something to me that they're not going to naturally be, you know, like I want these relationships in my life to emerge and to grow into their own intelligence, into their own sort of blueprint, you know, like a, like a tomato plant.

49:14

Like right now I'm planting tomatoes and it's like, I'm not trying to turn this tomato plant into a peas plant or, you know, a flower.

Like it has a wonderful job and I wanted to do it's wonderful, you know, expression of what it is.

49:32

I don't want it to try to be everything.

Right is I have to find this one who is all the things and everything.

And so we start to try and like pull people into that because if you didn't have that thinking, you would quite literally see all of your friends and the people in your community as beautiful being this that you love, right?

49:57

Because you'd be like, well, all of these things, right?

But the second that we get constricted into the one, then, yeah, we're trying to pull somebody into this like, really tight expectation.

And so the ability to really like, see all that.

And like, yeah, that's the tomato plant.

Here's my watermelon, right?

50:13

And these are beautiful.

And that's what I also love about it.

And you know, just in terms of things that I can bring to your life, going back to the positive things, I love getting to have a tomato actually keep running with this metaphor, right?

50:28

Like so great on my salad.

So, so cherry tomatoes so good, you know, and the beauty is the the tartness of that tomato, the acidity of it all.

When I think, oh, has the watermelon.

This is a whole other thing.

50:45

This is so good and juicy and so perfect in the summertime.

And I think I'm sure you've seen this.

I felt this in my own life and I see it with so many of my clients who like, yes, there is difficulties and things to come up into when it comes to non monogamy.

But when you're riding the wave, when you get into the full trip of it all, the ability to have diversity in your connections, it brings perspective that brings so much gratitude with the people that you love.

51:13

I've heard clients who say, like, I hadn't had sex for my with my partner in years.

We open up, I have a new date, and then I wanted to have sex with my partner immediately.

Just the perspective, the energy that it brings in.

And I believe that that happens whether you're having sex with people or not, any sort of intimate relationship, when you're adding that multiplicity, it's going to bring that joy and that connection.

51:35

And I think that comes down to our fundamental need for community and intimacy, which is not very well developed in our our capitalistic world, right?

Like this is a need we all have for more deep intimate relationships.

Yes, absolutely.

51:52

Yes.

It's definitely not just about how many lovers do we have, but how, how do we really interact with the world?

And do we trust that the world in a bigger sense can have our back so that we're not putting that entire job of feeling safe in the world on one person, right?

52:11

Because that can become codependent and very enmeshed quickly.

And that's actually to bring back Doctor Jolie Hamilton.

You know, like her approach to non monogamy is starting with individuation, starting with the idea that each person in the non monogamous context needs to really come to terms with who they are and grow into their fullest expression and not perpetuate a version of themselves that is completely dependent on their role that they play in one relationship.

52:45

Because you know, if that's really like the crux of your identity, it's like I'm this person's wife and this is the role that I feel for them.

You know, like it's going to be so hard to differentiate enough to have different relationships.

And I think that is really like the characteristic of default monogamy, the paradigm of like, yes, I need to be everything to this one person, but I see people making a monogamous choice from a place of differentiation, and that's actually really different.

53:20

And I think there can be such a thing as free monogamous agreements and more like conscious monogamy that comes from not thinking that my whole world revolves around this person.

But maybe I don't want other lovers right now, and that's OK.

53:36

But you know, I have a sense of being really connected and tapped into my community and the world at large.

And if this person was not going to play the current role that they play in my life, I could still be OK.

Like my identity, my sense of self and rootedness is grounded in more than just that one relationship.

53:58

Yeah, it's grounded in community, our actual interdependence with so many other people.

And that's where I'm so grateful for the relationship anarchy community, because when I was studying that for my dissertation, I found different monogamous relationship anarchy.

54:13

So I think some people be like, is that contraindicated?

You know, and it's like, no, absolutely not.

Relationship anarchy is about deconstructing the internalization of the power system and how deep that goes within our unconscious of how we relate, right.

54:30

And so if if someone were to say that non monogamy is actually the heart of relationship anarchy, that's putting sexuality at the center.

And that's actually a big thing.

It also tries to really deconstruct is that sex is not the most important way of connecting with people, Right, right.

54:47

So it's like whenever people come back and they're like, no, you can't be that.

I'm like, but now you're putting sex as the variable of the most important.

Do you see what you're doing?

Like that's actually what we're trying to not do to.

Oh no.

So I was really grateful to like get into that and see that because I was like, right, It's about all of the relationships you have.

55:05

That's how monopoly dynamics work.

Like for the listeners aren't familiar with that.

They're absolutely people where one person practices monogamy and the other practices polyamory and it works and it thrives.

And that person in the monogamous context, I would make a big bet that they have a really rich, supportive community.

55:28

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think before we talk about setting 2, I think the last thing that's so important about mindset is parts work.

I'm like, we have to run parts work.

That's so important in parts where dear listener goes way before even IFS, if you're familiar with that, right?

55:46

It can go back to Freud, young, even Buddhism with the observing mind, right?

Other indigenous wisdom.

I'm sure you, you know that because you study East and West psychology.

But I think that's important for the listener who might not know that because I think it sometimes gets put with IFS and internal family systems.

56:02

So there's so much more to that.

But I think one of the important things is that when you are practicing conversion as an ethic and it feels really hard, you might have a part of you that we could call whatever you can name it what you want.

I call that my monogamous part and my monogamous part has a lot to say, you know, And so we want to hold that.

56:26

I think one of the particularly one of the areas that that became so prevalent with me was when I first started, started seeing particularly male fathers who are polyamorous because I think the the feminine side I could tap into for myself and my own, like feminist liberation.

56:45

Like absolutely.

And when I saw a male who was having has kids do it, it brought up like everything about like sexuality and men and like the pain points of our society and all the stereotypes of men being users and all that sort of stuff.

57:02

This guy's like, perfectly beautiful father.

Nothing wrong with him.

But like, my monogamous, like, restricted part was just like, you can't do that.

That's not good.

He's ruining the family structure.

How dare he spend time with other relationships when he should be with his kids.

Like, it was just so loud.

57:18

And I was so confused because when that part was talking, like a part of me, I was like, actively practicing non monogamy.

Yeah.

So it was like, you know, I'm just like, why is that happening?

Because I'm here and we know that with like internalized homophobia, right?

57:37

Like internalized modern oratory, like all these different systems are inside and they're going to have thoughts, right?

And so I think according it into like a part can help us take some space from it.

And rather than being like, why do I have that?

We can be like, Oh yes, the systems.

57:53

This is a part.

I am not that part.

I'm actually the observing of the part and then choosing the ethics right of conversion and kind of going from there.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah.

I think one of the main things that, you know, people come into, you know, in my office as a coach is they are already sold on the idea of conversion and non monogamy.

58:19

Like their mind is in the right place, but they can't sort out sort out the part of them that is really uncomfortable and really in pain.

So they feel like they're torn apart because they're like, how can I be thinking and feeling different things?

58:38

And actually, another Jolie Hamilton moment.

I.

Love.

She mentors me.

Did you know that she mentors me?

I'm so grateful.

I know we were talking about jealousy and conversion and we coined the term comfort struggle.

That is when someone really struggles to experience conversion because they have some parts that are really experiencing deep jealousy, but then they have parts that are totally in a compulsion zone.

59:07

And that is really common.

And I think, you know, like, that is also a common experience when we think about certain emotions, like, oh, it's bittersweet, you know, like maybe when we, you know, experience grief or big change in our life and you know, like, there's part of us that is on board, but part of us that's resistant and experiencing pain.

59:31

It doesn't have to be a bad thing.

Like we are inherently able to hold many things, but I think we're conditioned to think, as you know, of jealousy as an emergency and as something where somebody's doing something wrong and we're feeling victimized.

59:47

And if we can put that in perspective and allow ourselves to experience jealous parts without assigning a villain.

Right.

Then we're going to be able to integrate the attitudinal conversion and also the tender parts that are saying like, well, Are you sure I'm safe?

1:00:11

Yeah.

Are you sure that this is going to be OK?

Am I good enough?

Right.

You know, all of these parts are, you know, they can exist, but they don't have to be in direct conflict with a compressive orientation to a relationship.

1:00:27

I can still show up as a compressive person even when the tender parts are emerging and you know, like in conversation.

Absolutely, absolutely.

Yeah, literally just yesterday, since this is my first video podcast, Thank you again for joining me in that.

1:00:48

Of course, literally yesterday I was sobbing on the phone with one of my partners.

I was like, I am so scared to go into this.

I I am so worried.

I hired the video editor.

I'm doing it like like, oh, I was like I told him I was like Cooper, I want this so badly and I am scared and I'm just like sobbing.

1:01:09

This is just it's like so much change.

I've only done audience of years as wild for me at least, you know, and so like I think that the skills of nom monogamy, right, they translate to so many other areas, right, Like I am actively sobbing and going.

I want this times you do that and nom monogamy.

I still remember the first time he went to go dance with somebody on a dance floor.

1:01:30

Straight up Just Dance.

Like started like Just Dance.

Like he didn't even kiss, Just Dance.

And he told me we were getting Thai food and I just started crying.

I was like, yeah, that's like super cool.

Like.

And our name was Nicole too.

So I was like, great.

Like not challenging my place at all.

1:01:47

She just has my name and she's hot and like, like.

Cosmic plot.

Exactly, exactly and.

So I just like, I think those skills, that's why I love working with clients with this stuff because I'm sure you see it too.

It's like you come in wanting to change your sex life, you come in wanting to expand into a monogamy and the skills that you get through that journey ripple out into every area of your life, right?

1:02:12

Like you just, you have more of that capacity once you start practicing this to say, OK, the tears that I'm having right now are a sign of my growth.

I want this growth and I'm going to keep going.

And I know that it will get better, right?

And you just keep going.

1:02:27

You keep going and you be, you know, some people say fake it till you make it.

And I think that's beautiful.

And I also really like Choose who you want to Be.

Yes, yes, that's like the next level of fake it till you make it.

1:02:42

It's you actually exercise that agency of I can be having a lot of emotions and I can still show up in values alignment in a loving space, you know, and doesn't mean I have to repress what's there.

It's not the same as toxic positivity.

1:03:00

A lot of people confuse conversion and toxic positivity, but it's not the same.

It's actually toxic positivity, like the repression and you know, like being fake could actually hinder, right, true empathy and true conversion from arising because there are ways to actually share vulnerably with a partner and say like, oof, this is difficult for me.

1:03:23

And I really want you to be autonomous and fulfilled and happy and you know, let's work together.

But I I'm not going to hinder your autonomy.

Yeah, absolutely.

That's a vulnerable right that can get into.

1:03:40

In terms of set setting, right, it gets into people's attachment patterns of what feels comfortable, you know, because some people will say, like, I really don't want to share how hard this is for me because I'm fearful that I'll be too much if I'm crying as I'm trying to get into this.

Or maybe they'll be annoyed by my struggle, right?

1:03:58

So there's a lot around the vulnerability of being able to name that, but I feel like you find that when you're able to name that and be held in it, that's when the nervous system can relax and it really makes it easier to step into the conversion pieces.

And I think that's a good segue in terms of the setting, right?

1:04:16

Because if I, you know, like thinking back to that example with the Thai food where I'm crying at the table with my lover, if he said this is really too much for me, I can't believe you're reacting this way, right?

Which which he would be in his right to choose that, to say that he doesn't want to meet me at this level.

1:04:34

Like again, that's like you don't, you know, if he gets to choose who wants to be in relationship with.

So I think that's really important.

You don't have to want to walk that same journey with everybody because everyone's in a different place.

And also, if he would have said that to me, it would have shattered my, like, capacity to come into hit.

1:04:51

Like, you know, now when I call him, I just like sobbing every time there's something difficult because he's been such a safe space for that, which is kind of like a special magic, you know, like you just, yeah, you know, like, is it because it's just built up nervous system safety?

And so you have to have a partner who can meet you and that and say, like, hey, I know you're struggling right now.

1:05:11

And I also know that conversion is an ethic that you are practicing and working for it.

And so I can meet you in this moment of struggling and not take that personally to think you're trying to restrict or hinder me because I'm sure you've seen that happen, right?

Where someone goes, I'm really scared.

And then the other partner goes, well, now I'm really scared because are you going to stop my freedom?

1:05:30

And then now we're in a both nervous systems are stressed, not good.

Our struggle.

Yeah.

Yep, absolutely.

Yeah.

It's such an art to show up authentically, vulnerably, but also with comparison.

1:05:49

And that is completely possible.

And that I think more than anything paves the way to nervous systems feeling safe with each other.

And you know, like talking about that kind of, you know, setting of conversion.

1:06:06

Like what comes to mind is what is the relational ecosystem like?

Like what, what's the vibe?

What's the container like?

What kind of energy and communication and attitudes are people coming in with?

1:06:25

Are they creating safety?

Are they creating a sense that there is enough bandwidth to hold people's needs and, you know, people's vulnerabilities with care?

Exactly.

So when people feel like there is safety in the relational ecosystem with their partners and with their metamors, when they feel like there is a caring container, a caring web, then they actually can, you know, let their nervous systems.

1:06:58

Relax.

But that actually really does derive from a commitment to a certain value system.

So I think that's really why, you know, like attitudinal conversion can be a precursor or at least, you know, like create a foundation to more embodied compression and you know, embodied compression, you know, like it's not a requirement I think for healthy, sustainable non monogamy.

1:07:26

But when people have a really conducive terrain for it, then that is really, you know, like that can bring people to have a better trip.

Absolutely, absolutely.

Because it's felt in your nervous system, you can feel that, especially if anyone's practicing kitchen table dynamics and you're all together, you can feel whose nervous system is tight, right?

1:07:52

And so when you can feel people really relax and laugh and giggle together, it just makes it much easier because it doesn't feel like so much of A threat of loss, right?

I think when we're kind of tight, you might think, oh, there's still this, like, it's almost like a, like, is someone going to try and wrangle this person away?

You know, we have that.

1:08:08

Isn't that one of the like metaphors we use in our community of like a Wrangler, someone who tries to like, pull them away into monogamy?

Yeah, I heard the term cowboy too.

Yeah, I was trying to think like a gender neutral, like cow person, cow person, Wrangler, cow, human.

1:08:25

We got it.

Yeah.

And so like, when, when you feel everyone's nervous system really like, oh, like we're not trying to wrangle somebody away.

We're all here for the collective community and the ability to build and feel into relationships that are aligned and feel good and pleasurable for everybody.

1:08:44

It does.

I think it creates more of like the fertile soil, right, for conversion to really just start to flow because it's like this person isn't going to like steal the moment if there's any thought about that, right?

Like we're all going to be at the same table together or doing these things together.

1:08:59

It just it makes it the breathing into it so much easier.

And you know, if you've had part of the setting that I think we bring in is, is our relational attachments from childhood to our parents, right, to our previous lovers and friends.

1:09:16

If you've had lovers who have lied to you, lovers who have cheated, lovers who all those sorts of things, like we carry that in the setting, right?

Because those are part of the external things that have now gone internal Infinity loop, right?

But like, oh, we carry that in our body.

1:09:33

And so the wisdom, dear listener, when you're thinking about your past experiences and when conversion can feel really tough to step into or to practice as an ethic, your body, your mind, your soul, your it's so incredibly wise, right?

1:09:50

That's like Step 1, coming into the compassion piece to know that it is so incredibly wise.

And because you have been hurt before, it is trying to predict that that might happen in the future just a little bit faster so that you don't get hurt just as bad this time.

1:10:06

Yeah.

Mm hmm.

Sometimes that's not necessary though, because this new person that you're connecting with is really beautiful and lovely and they're not going to do those same things.

But because of the times where you've been hurt, we're hypersensitive to pick up on things to project something to go where right.

1:10:24

And again, that's that's the part of ourselves that is trying to keep us safe.

And also sometimes in the right loving containers, we get to really take off that armor.

Talk about shadow work.

I know we said maybe we'd get to that.

Like just the shadow work was like OK wow this person is actually really safe and I don't need to have all this armor up anymore.

1:10:47

Yeah, yeah, it's amazing, Kind of like that rewiring that can happen when we meet the right person, when there's the right chemistry.

I'm just thinking also about the analogy of psychedelics, you know, like when you are going to go deep into that like malleable state of consciousness, you know, like the people that surround you, the people who are with you in that moment.

1:11:10

If you're not doing it alone, like it's going to, it's going to have such a huge impact on your experience, on what's going to come through, what is going to be the result of it?

Are you going to be having epiphanies and feeling more connected or are you gonna, you know, potentially go into like a funky trip where it just feels like clunky and you're not too sure how to interpret the results and the learnings from it?

1:11:41

Like, there's so many things that can come from a drug experience, just like there's so many things that can come from a relational experience.

And the more people you put into that caldron to use also like an alchemical analogy, then the more variables there are.

1:12:04

And it can be great.

It can be like very harmonious and compatible, just as if you're making a big soup with many ingredients, but all sometimes you put one ingredient that just doesn't fit and then it just kind of throws off the whole soup.

1:12:22

So, yeah, the, the people and what they're bringing, the safety, the, the things that they trigger and each other, the quality of presence that they bring, the quality of care, all of that, you know, like would bring, you know, like a context into being conducive to compression for certain people or really not conducive.

1:12:46

And that's why also, you know, people sometimes will come, you know, into my office and say, like, yeah, no, monogamy doesn't work for me.

You know, I tried it.

I had an experience with my ex, and it just was a disaster.

And then they make a conclusion about a relational style, just like they would do with a drug, you know, like, I tried psilocybin and I had a very bad trip.

1:13:10

And that means it's not going to work for me.

Like, OK, well, maybe it's true.

Maybe that's just not really like chemically a drug that won't work for you and with you ever.

Or maybe the sudden setting wasn't right.

Maybe if you had a completely different group of people around you, maybe if you had a different partner, someone who holds your hand in a different way, maybe you'd have a great experience.

1:13:34

So, you know, let's not be too quick to pigeonhole a relational style or a substance into like this is the grand conclusion for the rest of my life that.

Exactly.

Exactly, exactly.

And it was really interesting when I was first training in psychedelic assisted therapy work, there was a client that I had had where we were planning to go into trauma.

1:13:58

So the context was like this person really wanted to go into it.

Maybe I think a bit too quickly for the relationship and the development of what we had gotten into in terms of the therapeutic container.

And we had given the dose and then they, they said they didn't feel anything.

And I remember being like a little training student, like looking to my supervisor and the doctor, you know, just like, did we give the job?

1:14:19

Like did we do it?

And they're like, and I was very perplexed.

I was like, well, what which is this?

And they're like, well, sometimes if you try to go some into it too fast, there's so many protectors in the body and the nervous system that are saying now is not the time to trip.

1:14:35

And it can really increase like quarter sole adrenaline, other sorts of things that can really make it hard to surrender into the experience and really feel that.

Now, obviously, you know, I'm working with ketamine and there is a certain level at which you will be forced into the experience, right?

We use it as an for anesthesia, right?

1:14:51

We use it for other sorts of experiences.

It can be used to control people when they're in the emergency rooms.

There's a lot of problems around consent around that.

It's a whole other topic.

But obviously there's a certain dose where you still get knocked into it, right?

But it's important to acknowledge that depending on the dose, there's still an amount where if it doesn't feel safe, you might not seal it.

1:15:12

You just might not feel it, right?

And I think the same thing here, right?

Like if you're really protecting, you're never going to get into the trip itself, right?

Because there's so many protectors that are just flying and activated, right?

And when you shared about the system, I remember really feeling strong.

1:15:30

You know, we're talking about strength of who we are and thinking to myself, like, OK, I have multiple partnerships and there's someone here who's like maybe on board with no monogamy, but maybe not.

I don't know.

They're kind of like, all right, And what?

1:15:48

And I was like, that's OK, I can take that.

Like, let's have fun, let's enjoy this.

Let's check it out.

I don't know if I would OK right now.

Would I do that again?

Absolutely not.

Let's just be very clear.

Absolutely not.

You know, like in the moment I'm like, yeah, let's do it.

1:16:04

And my frameworks, too, at the time was like, I'm grounded.

I have this beautiful community.

This is literally my life's work.

Like here I am.

And their influence on me was really strong.

And I was so shocked how strong it was.

1:16:21

And then I was reading the this book from the feminist psychology movement and it's called This Changes Everything, the relational revolution of psychology.

I believe that's the correct title.

And I really was so grateful.

I felt like I was just finding like healing wisdom to my grief at that point in my life as I was trying to process that breakup of just like they use this metaphor of tuning forks where you can have all 8 tuning forks in the same pitch and harmony.

1:16:51

And when you bring in a knife who is in a different pitch, it ripples through all of them.

And that hit me like a brick.

I was like, oh right.

So like, yeah, every person in the ecosystem has a pitch and a frequency and it is going to impact me regardless of how strong.

1:17:10

And I want to be like, I can do this.

It's like, yes, you can and also you will be impacted, right?

You, we are relational beings going back to the Infinity side, right?

Like yes, yes, we're.

Inseparable.

Yeah, Inseparable from our environments and from each other's.

1:17:30

Which is also what makes this work so deeply political, right?

Like every time you slow down to be present, to love someone.

And that is such another example of setting.

It is really kind of the wider social position that we embody, that we occupy when we are, you know, relating with each other.

1:17:54

It is deeply political because we are inseparable from the society we inhabit, the good and the bad.

All of the beliefs that have been downloaded into us from the moment we were born.

The cultural beliefs, the political beliefs about who has power, who doesn't, who should feel small, who should feel big?

1:18:20

Based on what?

Who do we think is powerful or valuable or attractive?

Right.

Whose attention, Whose validation do we want versus who do we think should seek our validation?

1:18:36

You know, all of these power dynamics that are political but also interpersonal, all of that comes into the the setting of non monogamy and compulsion actually requires, I think like dismantling some of those like power dynamics to actually experience empathy and togetherness and to be on the same team.

1:19:01

You know, like it requires in a way, like a shattering of the, the sense of separateness of like what I have is gonna, you know, like be protected because I, you know, like I don't want you to have more because that's gonna take away from me like that kind of paradigm of competition.

1:19:20

Yeah.

That is inherently political.

Like we have to dismantle that and actually get into a positive sum frame where like, OK, like more for you can mean more for me.

Yeah.

And vice versa.

1:19:37

Absolutely, yeah.

I record with Doctor Elizabeth Schaff recently and other people in our community, and she was talking about how the research was showing across education lines that the more educated a woman is, the more she goes towards polyamory and the less educated, the more she goes towards polygamy.

1:19:54

Based on the research, I was like.

Interesting.

That's a really big political surprise.

Yeah, I'm not surprised, but also like, wow, you know, and like, I don't love the US government.

And also the reality is that the day that Holly Humours marriage has rights in this country.

1:20:16

I mean, I see people advocating for it.

I see different cities and spaces.

And across the world this is happening.

But in America when that happens?

It is going to change everything of how we look at it.

Think about psilocybin, right?

Most people have done it are like, wow, this is a pretty cool thing.

1:20:33

How is this elite?

This is quote, UN quote.

What category on the substance, what you know, and we all kind of go wow, OK, you know, and so we're yeah, the day that that's legal, it's going to ripple through so many things.

The day we get women on the fucking dollars, How is it all men?

1:20:55

Wow, yeah.

That one kills me.

I think about it, I'm like, holy shit, you know, So like just this, this system, like I don't love our government, but like also the moment that it does validate any of these things, it is going to surge, right?

Because there's still so much of our safety in these systems that we look to that of like, OK, am I going to go to jail if this, Am I going to lose custody of my children if someone hears this?

1:21:18

Am I going to any of these things?

And so that is all a part of the setting that we're sitting in every single day and the fear that we carry in our bodies that restrict so many orgasms, right?

Like like the day that that is there, Like we will have so much more breath into the system and ease in ways that, you know, the younger generations are going to go so much further than we can ever even imagine, right?

1:21:43

Like they're going to, they're going to be so much more wild and free than we ever could even dream, you know?

Yeah, Yeah.

I mean, I really, really want that to be true.

Sometimes it feels like, you know, we might not be moving in the right direction, but I still have hope that things can change and evolve because there are so many people like us that are having those conversations and are pushing for that liberation and really looking at.

1:22:11

Yeah, like just in the same way that a few decades ago people were really like looking at what is compulsory heterosexuality, you know, like what in our society actually like enforces heterosexuality and just gives a lot of structural and institutional privileges to people who are in straight relationships.

1:22:33

Now we're actually looking at this, you know, compulsory mononormativity and questioning it like questioning like why do we give all these privileges to monogamous couples and not only disadvantaging non monogamous people, but really disadvantaging single people, people who choose not to be married, not to be part of a couple, not to center the couple at the, you know, middle of their life as the most important thing.

1:23:04

I think one of my great privileges in life was to be raised with a bunch of single people.

My parents decided not to be married and they had their own houses.

And I think that's a big part of why I came into this work and why I did not grow up with this inherent like download of mono and our nativity.

1:23:24

And they had a great community of other people who did not want to center couple and marriage as the primary objective of their lives.

And so I had all these examples and at the same time like they had to suffer some discrimination and, you know, loss of privilege that comes with monogamous marriage, like immigration privileges and tax privileges, insurance like there, you know, like there's a lot of socio economic ways that our society just kind of, you know, privileges and enforces monogamy and that's not right.

1:24:02

It's not.

That's not right.

No, no, no, I'm so glad you had that upbringing, though, because look at the beautiful book you have and he's all this wisdom that you have, right?

To be here in this space and to have known for yourself that that's what you wanted to do for your doctorate and to really go into this, right?

1:24:20

Because books in the conversations like this, it's so important because it's it's a language, you know?

Yes.

Now monogamy has been practiced for centuries.

Let's be clear in our current time frameworks, we need more language to describe this because the word conversion, right, even that all the feelings that come up during this experience, right, it can be really difficult and because we don't have the models these other sorts of things.

1:24:47

It's the language that we're tapping into that is giving us the ability to understand even you know the basics of the emotion will huge right when you have the wisdom to communicate what is going on.

There's so much freedom and choice in that.

And so I'm, I'm so grateful that you grew up in that community and now have continued to like, just go deeper and deeper into this, of challenging the systems.

1:25:07

And I'm so grateful, so grateful to be in the space.

Thank.

You so much.

Yeah.

I'll actually add also, I think the word conversion was fittingly born into a community that voluntarily decentered coupledom to center community.

1:25:26

Yeah.

And I think that's not a coincidence.

No, I was just actually interviewing two women who are the some of the original members of the charista community in San Francisco, which was a community that was, you know, like in the Haight Ashbury in the city for about 20 years in the 70s and 80s.

1:25:46

And they practice something called polyfidelity or group marriage.

And for them, compulsion was very inherent because they were not feeling threatened.

They were not trying to couple down and settle down with one person like they had community at the center.

1:26:07

So there was a lot less of a sense of threat.

And you know, they were experiencing so much compulsion that they decided that they needed a word for it.

And that's why it actually created this word.

I love that story because not only does it say like, oh wow, like there was this experience and people actually went and created a word, but the context in which it originated was not like, you know, was not in like a mono centric world.

1:26:41

It was literally in a context that centered community.

And I think that's so important.

Like the sudden setting was was ripe for compression.

Yeah, yeah.

Community is the answer, the medicine that we all need in that way.

1:26:57

Yeah, Well, it's been such a joy to have you on the podcast, Doctor Murray.

It's been so fun to cover so much of us and it's such a important episode of education on these topics.

And also, I still have one closing question, but I want to check in with you first and see if there's anything else you want to share.

1:27:14

Otherwise I can to the closing question.

Gosh no, I just feel like we should be writing another book now.

Like the set and setting a concursion.

This is so good.

I do have my e-book, it is for free on my website and that that is kind of, it was all about jealousy.

1:27:31

But I could see how, yeah, the stepping it into the pleasure framework would be so hot.

Like helpful, 'cause I think when I first wrote that, I was like, I want a free guide out there that it hits like the, the pain point, which maybe reflects our two different starting points.

I'm coming from purity culture.

1:27:48

So I'm like shaking on the ground, you know, like crying.

So I'm like, how do I help that person who's like right there, you know, right.

But like your, your invitation to step into the pleasure side is so, so important of the conversion side.

And that's so, so fundamental.

Yeah, yeah, I love, I love to look at human potential and possibilities and like, how good can we feel and how, you know, how, how much love can we actually feel?

1:28:17

How can we expand our love and our heart?

Absolutely, absolutely.

So beautiful.

You're on the right show.

Yep, thank.

You so much Nicole.

It's always such a joy and such a good trip to talk to you.

I love that.

1:28:33

Yes.

Well, good, good, good.

Well, OK, so before we go to the last question, we're gonna take a nice deep breath with you.

Yep.

So the last question that I ask everyone on the show is what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

1:28:55

Well.

In the realm of relationships, I think 1.

It's kind of a very specific example, but normalize having separate bedrooms even when you live with your partners.

1:29:12

Yes.

Me and my nesting partner have separate beds, different bedrooms and thank God because OK, good for people who want to sleep in the same bed every single night.

No judgement.

1:29:28

But I know for a fact that there are people who wish they had two different beds so that they can, you know, go into the mystery of their asleepness alone at least once in a while and have that kind of breathing room and independence.

1:29:45

And I know that maybe not everyone can afford it.

So I want to also put a caveat there.

But I think some people just haven't given themselves the permission.

Right.

To think about how do they want to inhabit their space and what actually can promote like a connection that is based on choice and not on default.

1:30:10

And I think having separate bedrooms can be a great choice.

Totally, absolutely, absolutely a space of your own.

Right.

Did you ever read Virginia Woolf's A Room of Linzone?

Yeah, OK.

I have not, but I was just thinking about that, yes.

1:30:27

That's, gosh, I read that what in my undergrad and I was like, that's so cool.

Yeah, you're right.

Dear listener, if you're not for familiar, Virginia Woolf was a feminist writer, and we talked about the importance of having a room of her own to like write and be in our creative flow and all those sorts of things.

1:30:42

And it's something that has always inspired me and something that I've really held on to have the need for your own space to explore, particularly because I study sex, especially sex, right?

To have a room of your own, a space of your own is so important.

1:31:00

Just to like continue her lineage and add sex on there.

Like that is such an important part.

And when you think of having a room of your own, like in separate beds, like you're saying with your nesting partner, if you were to drop that into maybe a more mononormative framework, people would be like, oh God, are you, do you need a couples therapist?

1:31:18

I have a couples therapist, Right.

But in our Poly communities, we're like, yeah, that's great.

Like, totally makes sense.

Like, yeah, you know, like, like just, I would just immediately be like, yeah, of course.

Right, right, right.

Why wouldn't you?

Right.

But the narratives around that's like the framework and the narratives of all of that.

1:31:36

And so it makes sense.

Like if you were to say that to your lover, like, Hey, I think we want separate bedrooms, they might go like, are we breaking up or do you love me anymore?

Right.

So there's a lot, lot of existential meaning making in that one for folks.

But so I love your invitation to see that as a way of like really bringing the ability of the individuation going back to Doctor Jolie, right?

1:31:59

Like the beauty of individuation, which often Stokes the fire of intimacy.

Folks, we, we always try to put like intimacy as like a fire itself.

And if you get too close where you no longer have individuation, it's like suffocating the fire.

It needs oxygen to breathe, right.

1:32:16

So like getting into a little bit of space can really give that to you.

And I, I read some research that was saying women sleep better by themselves anyways.

So, yeah, and so right, we're still continuing to push that edge in terms of the narratives of what's possible around this.

1:32:32

And there will be many more conversations.

Doctor Ray, I feel very confident you'll have to come on for a round 3 when we come back and do it again.

So I.

Love that so much building.

Community, the podcast community, we're doing round threes, you know, lots of round twos around threes sounds.

Like 1/3 date that's getting scarious.

1:32:49

Exactly.

Yeah.

It's beautiful, beautiful.

Well, I'm sure everyone is wanting to know before I let you go, where can they find your book?

How can they connect with you and your coaching and your work?

Please tell all of my listeners about it.

1:33:05

Absolutely.

So folks can go to whatisconversion.com to find resources and of course, a link to my book, which is what is conversion?

They can also download a wonderful worksheet that I built to help people assess what is their, what are their conversion strengths and bottlenecks.

1:33:27

So kind of using the factors we talked about today, that's a really helpful download for people to to know what they should be focusing on what where there's the most potential within the ecosystems of their relationships.

And people can book a free 30 minute introductory session with me if they're interested in one-on-one coaching or relationship coaching with their partner.

1:33:51

Or partners.

Beautiful.

Well, dear listener, I'll have all that LinkedIn the show notes below.

So you can just go find Doctor Maria and all of her.

Stuff.

And again, thank you so much.

For coming onto the show today.

Thank you, Nicole, it's always a joy.

I appreciate what you're doing.

1:34:06

Have a good rest of your day.

Hey dude, listener, I'm so glad that you're here and that you tuned in for another episode today.

If you want to go way deeper on the subjects we explored with today's episode, I have created a full library of resources on pleasure liberation psychology.

1:34:24

And my intention with creating all of that is to keep these resources free.

And so they're all free to download.

You can share them with your lovers.

You can share them with your community.

And I think that's a really important part to keep educational resources free for our community.

So you can explore all of that at modernanarchypodcast.com.

1:34:44

It's also linked in the show notes below.

And please know that I am really excited to dive in with you all again next Wednesday.