291. An Ego Death F**k: Transformative Community Building - Syre Saniyah

0:00

Yeah, One thing that, like, white supremacy culture does is reinforces a right to comfort, you know, to allow myself to lean into these aspects of myself in a way that they're not only tolerated but like, can make someone orgasm like multiple times.

0:25

And I think there's something about being a queer person, being a non monogamous person, being a kinky person, like all of those things in which we can't just fly by the seat of our pants.

I'm like, what does it mean that I have this ball gag and this four person seam right?

Oh, I'm a slut.

Got it.

Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring the sex, relationships and pleasure liberation.

1:00

I'm Doctor Nicole, I'm a queer, non monogamous psychotherapist and a provider of psychedelic assisted psychotherapy.

I teach students from around the world how to craft pleasurable sex lives and non monogamous relationships.

1:22

Hello, dear listener.

Today's guest is Sire.

And what I love most about these conversations is how, you know, the outside world can look at all of our sluttiness and have so many of these different narratives.

You know, they just want to affect people or fill in the blank of that sort of judgement that often comes towards us.

1:41

And I find again and again on the podcast that some of the solelydious people are also the people at the biggest hearts for building community.

We're going to get into that and so much more, the ego death of that process.

So much more on today's episode and day listener.

1:58

If you want to go way deeper into these subjects, I've got a full library of free resources waiting for you at modernanarchypodcast.com.

All of that is LinkedIn.

The show notes below and Jay listener, please know I'm sending you all my love and let's dive into today's episode.

2:18

So the first question that I love to ask everyone on the show is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

I love that question.

So my name is Sires Sanaya.

I use he hem pronouns and just I guess that was some of my identities.

2:39

So I'm black, I'm queer, I'm a trans man, I'm polyamorous and kinky along with kinky continuum.

I'm dominant and sadist.

Yeah.

I'm a licensed psychologist and an energy worker, psychedelic therapist.

2:59

And like, the work that I do really centers around helping people move towards liberation.

And so in no matter which way that I'm, you know, being with folks, it's to help them feel more free and whatever that means to them.

And so I mean, really, that's what I'm here to do, right?

3:17

I'm here to, you know, fight for my liberation, to help people fight for their liberation and to resist these systems that try to keep us from that.

Same yes, so excited to chat and also thank you to Cash for connecting us.

3:36

Absolutely, yeah.

Yeah, I feel like I haven't talked about that on the podcast in a while.

That dear listener who's tuning in, so many of the guests who come onto the show, it's nomination.

So each guest that comes on, they nominate who I go to next.

And it's created this really beautiful ecosystem of lovely souls.

3:54

So it's it's a joy to be in connection with you and excited to hear more about your journey into this work.

Thank you.

Yeah.

So how did you get into this?

Where?

Where does the journey start for you?

How did you become passionate about liberation work?

What a beautiful question.

4:11

It's interesting.

So I knew I wanted to help folks like really early on, right?

And so my path was through psychology.

So, and I guess I can start earlier than that with my family telling me that, you know, education was the way to find freedom in this world.

4:33

You know, as a little black girl at the time that I needed to be, you know, smarter and work harder and, you know, get the most education in order to be, to have a seat at the table, basically.

4:53

And so.

And so I thought the path to do that was get a pH.

D That's what you do.

Like you, you go to school, you do really well, you get a pH D, you become a therapist.

And I did that.

Hell yeah.

Right.

Very exciting.

Yeah.

5:08

And so that path actually started with like a clinical psychology program that was pretty medical model based.

I went to a clinical site that is my degree.

Yeah.

So I did that for a year, and I was like, let me take a pause.

5:27

Hold on.

Yeah.

And then eventually went to get a counseling psychology PhD, which changed the question from what's wrong with you to what's right with you?

And how do we help you harness those strengths right?

5:43

I did not know that before I started my degree.

Right we.

Will ask for advice.

I'm like do not do clinical anything it just.

Yeah, yeah.

And you know, and I hope that maybe some of these programs are different now.

I did this in like 2009 so.

6:00

Let's hope it changes.

Yes, transformation.

Yeah.

But at that time, you know, when I started my career, I was very much like, on this, like empowerment of like everything's like empowerment.

You know, I'm going to be strong and I'm going to be empowered and all of these things.

6:17

And, and that was great, you know, And then I went to Egypt and did a kinetic yoga certification, which Kemet is a decolonized name for Egypt.

And so I went there and was in the temples and, you know, in the Great Pyramid and being in that land and felt more free than I ever had before.

6:44

And that this was in 2018.

When I came back from that trip, my whole mindset switched from empowerment to liberation.

Sure.

Right from like this kind of purely internal individual thing to actually let's look at the systems and the contexts that we're in that we need to seek freedom from.

7:15

And so so, yeah.

So that so that path kind of really, really turned things around for me.

At the same time, I was on my own coming out journey, you know?

Sure.

Yeah, coming out as queer, then coming out as kinky, and then polymers, and then trans.

7:33

And with each layer and level of coming out to myself and others, I found myself unable to separate my own liberation journey from my sense of identity and freedom and pleasure.

So.

7:50

Yeah.

I'm like keep going.

Tell me about the thread, like tell me about, yes, I'm Nick.

Yes where?

Tell me more.

Yeah, I mean, going back to like how I grew up as, you know, a little black girl and then, you know, a black woman and did all the right things and, and was a good girl.

8:12

And also, by the way, had never tried psychedelic medicine and for like until just, you know, much later in life.

So like, 'cause I was definitely a.

This is your brain on drugs, kid.

You know, like with the fried egg and the.

8:28

The person like falling into the couch like.

Absolutely.

And you don't do that.

And also like black people don't do that, right?

Like black people don't do.

That and the more drugs.

Right.

And you know, when I give talks about making psychedelic medicine more accessible to Black folks, I talk about how having agency of our mind has been critical for our survival, for intergenerational survival.

8:58

You know, when our bodies and backs were violated, you know, we could have agency in our mind.

Like, you are not going to actually colonize my mind, even if you have control over my body.

So there's something really sacred about about that and, and, and feeling like I got it here.

9:20

And so.

So yeah, I never did any of those things until much later.

And as I began to come fully into myself and take up more space in my own body and my own spirit, I, you know, within queer community, have the opportunity to explore psychedelics and.

9:39

Yeah.

After that it was like, oh, OK, right.

We can actually create whole, whole worlds.

Yes, we can do that.

You know, I can like feel in my body such deep pleasure and and remember it on the other side of the ceremony, right.

9:58

And like, take that with me as I move forward despite these systems that are like, literally trying to kill me, you know?

So.

Yeah.

So, you know, coming into my identities, building my relationship with psychedelics, each each step along that way was my own liberation and helped me get more understanding of what pleasure means to me.

10:26

You know, what does pleasure mean in this queer body?

What does pleasure mean in this trans body?

What does pleasure mean in this black body?

And being willing to be with that without guilt or shame or trying to make it smaller.

10:43

And, you know, like all of my work, I was like, Oh my gosh, I need to help other people understand that this is possible, you know?

Right, right.

Yeah.

All the tears that you shed through that journey, the moments of confusion and and just sure, like where am I?

11:03

The ego death of it all, both in the psychedelic experience and in the identity formation.

It's like if we could just support someone in having a little bit tiny less suffering, which is a big part of the whole yogic prayer, right?

11:19

Like male beings be happy and free from suffering.

And may I somehow contribute to that lack of suffering?

I am also a yoga teacher, so the the piece of that.

And I love bringing in the pleasure, not just the lack of suffering, but how can we help people step into even more pleasure with that, Right.

Yeah, yeah, with those psychedelic experiences, I know in the communities we often talk about them as templates, right?

11:43

They become templates of what's possible in the medicine.

So I'm so glad that you had that experience of definitely felt into so many different experiences for myself where it really like cracks open, shatters things that once constricted me, maybe shame that moves through the body or self doubt.

12:01

That's not to say that there aren't challenging trips.

We we know that it's good to say for the listener.

Normal trips.

Are easy.

Some of them are actually really scary, but generally there's there's such an opening there that becomes so much of a template and and creates new starting points for us to view ourselves, to view others, to view connection, to view love community.

12:25

Yeah.

And I think community is so central for me in that, you know, I think what helped me feel safe enough to try a psychedelic was that it was done in community, you know, with queer community, with my people that I felt safe with.

12:41

And like, we we had each other in that, you know, and I think my queer community has been some of my most important teachers in in this work, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

So it's been my identity as a trans person actually came to me as a part of a psychedelic experience.

13:04

Yeah, which is a common right this happened.

Like.

This is I've heard, yeah, I've heard of this happening with many people and clients.

Would you like to share more?

Sure.

Yeah.

Yeah, it was, it's it's so funny because, you know, I've been a therapist for like almost 20 years focusing on queer and trans and like bipod folks and, you know, deep and queer community and everybody around me is like non binary and trans and queer.

13:31

Like.

So like, I know, I know this.

And I was like rigidly committed.

Like I am not that I am a woman.

This is who I am.

I'm a Black woman.

That is my identity.

And this is right.

And.

Your face, you know.

13:55

Literally, yeah.

So.

What happened was it was a solo journey and with psilocybin and I was outside and I've always had a really deep connection with the sun and with like RAH, so the kinetic sun God.

14:17

And in fact, I have like RAH here on my chest.

Cool.

And you know, I'm a Gemini and Leo moon, Leo rising.

So like all of this, like really fiery, yes.

And so during this ceremony, I began to dance with the sun, right?

14:37

So it's just like meet me and the sun and we were dancing and the sun started to come down into me, right?

So sort of like pouring into me, kind of invoking the energy of the sun.

14:55

And when that happened, that energy filled my body and expanded it.

So it's like I expanded like, you know, like I don't know what felt like miles on either side of my of my physical body.

15:13

And then when my energy body came back into my physical form, it reorganized and then I was like, oh fuck, I'm a whole ass man.

Oh gosh.

Oh no.

15:29

Oh no.

Also, Oh no.

Oh, no, the humility now, like the humility now you're like, oh man.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And and then that I mean, like that was that, you know, like they're they're they're, you know, within psychedelic experiences, as you know, there can often be this sort of noetic quality to them to where like, you know, just like that.

15:55

Clearly you don't want to start making a bunch of decisions like right away to see if that knowing sticks.

But you know, it's been years at this point and I haven't looked back.

It's like once I knew, I knew, and then I couldn't.

16:10

Unknown.

And the more movement I've made towards this full expression of myself, the more myself I am and the more access to pleasure I have and the more free I feel and like Oh my gosh, what was I?

16:28

What was I doing?

Yeah, what a beautiful journey.

I'm so glad that you're here and you're full like glow in your embodiment.

Thank you.

Yeah, the I run group programs and I'm so passionate about group and the Pleasure Liberation Sexuality group are in it right now.

16:46

So we're doing the personal presentation parts and some of the folks who have shared like their journey of across transition and they've had photos across the journey and then like watch the smile go from like to like.

Full.

Bodied.

And I love seeing that.

I'm like, yeah, like the full transition there.

17:06

And, and yeah, the the experience you're having with the sun, you're like fully seeing that when you're tripping.

OK, I just have to share.

I'm so jealous.

Like just straight up so jealous because I have aphantasia.

Have you heard of this?

It's the inability to visualize with the mind's eye.

17:23

So when I close my eyes, it's always black.

I cannot be creative.

So usually people ask like, oh, can you?

When you trip on psychedelics, do you see anything?

And it's like, no, I can feel pieces as much and I do dream.

So that's an usually an expert.

17:39

Like do you dream?

Yes.

But then when I wake up, it's gone and I cannot resee it.

And so when I trip, I don't like I'm just so jealous.

Like the imagery of that, like that'd be so powerful to have, but.

Yeah.

They say that then your other senses might be deepened.

17:54

Maybe I got other things.

Going on absolutely.

And it wasn't my eyes that knew what was happening.

I do see often in, in, in the ceremony, but that it was the, no, it was the, the energetic feeling like, oh, the energy went from there to here.

18:16

And then I felt it go out and reform, you know, so like it was like the, the, the tactile sensation of it, right.

And the knowing of it too.

Yeah.

Powerful so.

Powerful.

Yeah, and so wise too, in terms of pausing after a psychedelic trip.

18:37

I feel like that's such an important piece and with the you don't want to make big life changes after the trip because there is so much that comes out of that.

We need time to integrate and also the things that are aligned will continue to show up, right?

So that continued to show and that's what it is.

18:53

And so that's really, I feel like what we want to hold out of our psychedelic experiences is maybe not the day after, but sitting with it aloud to simmer and and the things that are important that are true will continue to speak to you.

And I know we were going to talk about some of the crossovers between psychedelics and non monogamy and psychedelics and BDSM.

19:12

And whenever I'm bringing in the analogy of psychedelics and non monogamy, I think the just so ripe, ripe ripe example is that with NRE when we're tripping on NRE.

You.

Know like we're tripping on NRE.

We do not do the immediate.

19:30

Desires, which is.

I'm gonna text them every single day.

I'm gonna call them right now.

We're going to move in together.

You know what, You know, I think we get a little bit more like feet after doing the trip a few times to be like, these are cool feelings and I don't need to act on them, you know?

But like, we can wait.

19:47

Yeah.

The real things will come with due time.

Exactly that is such a good analogy.

Yes, I mean, but it is it's like our brain is like the dopamine is just like, you know, we cannot be Tulsa mean.

No, don't we?

I, I know, right.

20:04

OK, I've said that before.

And then one podcast gets us like, but I don't really like the frame of not trusting ourselves because of how many people have had trauma and like are already struggling with so much of a relationship to trust their body and other things.

But like, I was just sitting there like, yeah, I, I want to trust ourselves, but also like, we have to be wise.

20:22

Like you're in a dropped out state of being.

Like, there's lots of neurochemicals going on and that person's really hot.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And like be with that, do the things and also maybe don't like big life altering decisions just yet.

20:42

Right.

You know, right?

Take a breath.

It's OK.

Exactly, exactly, exactly right.

When I recorded with Dean Spade, we were talking about like all of the notes that we put in our like phone app that we don't send, you know, maybe just write it in there like, wow, you're so hot.

I want all of this and just just just walk away for take a walk.

21:02

And the beauty of like trusting that the time, the foundation building that you like slowly build into that will actually lead to a more stable connection over time.

The intensity of that that NRA can also be paralleled to the intensity of the dropout, right?

And I would say the same thing too, around like when you do psychedelics with people and then you, like, are suddenly like, oh, and now suddenly we're in love or suddenly we're this or like also pause.

21:29

Hold on, you know, Yeah.

Because the vulnerability that it brings, right?

So you feel so deeply connected to people.

You feel so, which is, again, is not a bad thing, right?

Our cravings for sexual connection, for romantic connection is not a bad thing.

21:47

But yeah, can we let that breathe, right?

Especially with the romantic connection in our world, which is so, and I guess it doesn't even have to say the word romance, but intimacy.

So much of us are intimacy deprived in this world.

And so when we find someone or yeah, with the sexual pieces of freedom, we have such a hard time feeling into our appetite because we aren't well nourished to kind of like learn what that full feeling in the belly is of, like feeling satiated, you know what I mean?

22:17

So in that same way, when we would gorge out on food when you're really hungry, we tend to gorge out on connection too, because we're just trying to be full again, because this world is.

Not full.

It's not full of connection, no.

And that's on purpose, right?

Like they want to keep us disconnected from ourselves and from each other because that's how capitalism threat is.

22:36

Keep keep us in the cog.

Otherwise we start the unions that part.

That part, yeah.

Wow, what a concept.

And sexual energy itself is such a powerful energy.

It's a creative energy.

22:52

It's something that brings forth and effects change, you know, And we want to keep people disconnected from that, to keep them away from their power and their sovereignty.

Yeah.

So to me, I'm like, no, like every time I fuck, it's in resistance to these systems, you know?

23:13

I I get that.

I fucking love that.

Every time I'm having gay sex I'm like, yes.

Yay.

So good, So good.

Yeah, when you think about erotic energy, I could nerd out on that for so long.

Let's do it.

23:29

Yeah, I know, right?

I know.

So this is a show.

Let's do it.

I've just, I've combined so much of my erotic energy with my actual work and creative work.

I've talked about this before on the audio, but I don't know why I'm feeling kind of clammy to say it when I'm on video.

23:46

But that's just the edge of it all.

But like before my intros, I would like solo pleasure and come and then come on to the mic and come with that full bodied like on today's and like come in with that energy, like straight up.

Yeah, right.

24:01

And so it's it's interesting how, you know, like there's the whole world of sex magic.

Is it classical conditioning?

I don't know what's going on, but the pairing of that framework has changed a lot for me in the last two years of like bringing that edge into my work and feeling releasing shame around that like.

24:19

It's so powerful.

It's so powerful.

Yeah.

I'm thinking like, you know, back to like the psychedelic piece as it relates to Eros and sexual energy, you know, because I'm also a psychedelic educator.

So I do a lot of teaching and training programs for people who want to be facilitators.

24:39

And because there have been a lot of harms in, in ceremonial space where people have abused power, there's some people who want nothing to do with sexual energy within a psychedelic context, you know, not within like personal relationships, but like when you're holding space for someone else.

24:59

There's some people who really try to dissuade folks from like, leaning into sexual energy that might arise as a part of their experience.

And I personally think that can be really harmful.

You know, I think we are holding so much shame in our bodies related to sex and sexual energy.

25:19

And when we avoid it so hard or try to try to tamp it down, it just like reinforces that shame in the body, right?

So like, imagine you're in a psychedelic state and Eros is on board and you're like feeling it in your system and you're like told to like calm that down.

25:40

Like put that away.

Like, don't you know?

And I am deeply an advocate for facilitators really learning how to be with their own comfortability with sexual energy because a lot of it is like people are just uncomfortable in their own bodies and their own systems.

25:56

And so they don't know what to do when someone else has EUR on board.

So I really advocate for digging out your relationship to your own body, your own sexual energy.

And then how do you stay in your center while someone else is engaging with their sexual energy?

26:13

You know, it's about like having boundaries, having clear boundaries so that you don't feel like blown over by someone else's sexual energy, but you also don't feel like you have to push it away somehow.

Right.

Yeah.

I mean, this is such a nuanced conversation to get into in terms of, yeah, when someone is feeling that arrows, are they containing it or are they trying to extend it to other people?

26:36

Are they trying to extend it to the space holder?

I remember when I was doing my clinicals with psychedelics, we read 1 research paper talking about, yeah, a client who had felt sexual energy and started masturbating during the experience in the paper.

And it was something, yeah, we all talked about it as a group of like what?

Do you do?

26:53

What do you do Is is that Yeah, is it shaming to say, hey, let's not do this there?

Is it a question of does the therapist have to be comfortable with that?

Because then you're you are, you know, that's a this we're not getting into.

Wow.

27:08

OK.

When we are in the group space, I think that's a really much more you have to think about.

The fact is everybody in this space comfortable with this, including the facilitators.

Because sometimes I think we get into the space where the facilitators are assumed to just be totally cool with everything, including like a problematic.

27:28

Yeah.

Harmful clients, harmful clients who come in with views that are harmful to the clinician.

Like I just don't think that as the like as a space holder, I have to be totally cool with like a racist or a sexist or a fill in any of the blank person.

So like there is a line here, right?

27:44

So it's like you don't have to be fully comfortable, but you don't want to shame the sex pieces, right?

So I'm thinking about like, yeah, in a group psychedelic experience, like is that what the full group is consenting to?

Which means did we have really good group agreements at the beginning?

Exactly.

28:00

Hey, this is what's on the table.

Not on the table in the individual space.

Yeah, a whole other container that we know the field of therapy generally though, like it'd be like.

Exactly.

And that's something I'm processing a lot with my my groups that I'm doing right is like, how do we hold the space when we're talking about sex?

28:19

So often part of what we do in that program is we watch hump together.

I'm sure you know Hump.

We process all of that.

We do personal shares but like the line I've been drawing is about extending sexual energy towards other people.

Yes.

That's my line.

28:36

Yeah.

And it's hard in the group, like you said, because it's like everyone might have different needs related to that, you know, for one person, like expressing sexual energy could be really liberating.

For another, maybe it's like triggering for some reason.

And and so yeah, like how do you prepare that, you know, in the preparation phases, right?

28:56

How you how are you building safety?

How are you building trust?

How are you Co creating group agreements in a way that people feel hurt and right?

I like models of of psychedelic work, particularly in groups where you have a longer on ramp before you start taking medicine together.

29:14

Yes, build the safety.

That means we can trip harder folks like yes.

Yeah, yeah.

But some of the legal like so I'm, I'm a licensed facilitator in Oregon and Colorado and you're only required to have one individual prep session and one group prep session before taking medicine together.

29:37

And then they suggest one integration, but you don't like have to do that but and that's the container.

Yeah, the medical model, you don't have to do any with ketamine.

You could just drop into an infusion clinic right now and be left alone in the room.

But then how are you holding?

29:53

Like what are the?

God, one session for a group.

I OK OK.

I do know a group in Chicago that does it like that for therapists.

Do you feel differently about different levels of potential comfort with group experiences?

30:10

Yeah, I mean, if it's my choice, I would want to have a container.

I just finished that like another facilitator friend of mine, Clement, in Oregon, we just ran a group for trans masculine folks where we met over a period of a couple of months in preparation both as a group and individual and then did the medicine.

30:35

And then we're still meeting on the other side for another couple of months so that we have like a five months container because it's like when we take these medicines, we have to create a safe enough space to have our nervous system disorganized, right?

Like we come apart in those containers.

30:52

And a part of that expansion is, is important for the work that we need to do, but we need a safe enough space to do that.

And I think that it takes time to create that and facilitate that.

So so so if it's up to me and if I have choice, that is the container that I would always do.

31:11

Yeah, that's what I do for my queer cap group.

We have at least three, the full session and those are two hour sessions, the full medicine day and then three integration on the other side with two hours.

Yeah.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm with you in terms of what that can bring up.

31:27

And I and and we both know.

And for the listener who's maybe newer to this, like truly, the more safe you feel in your body, the harder you can trip and go into just the unknown.

Like your body is so incredibly wise.

31:45

And if it does not feel safety, it will start to send all of the hormones to be alert, be alert, be alert, be alert.

Do not trip right now, be alert.

And so you will not go as deep, right?

So part of what we're building there is really the safety of the container, which is also what we do in King Kim BDSM to run that thread all the way through.

32:03

Look at that.

Look what you did.

Look what you did.

Yeah.

Exactly, right.

Exactly, exactly right.

It's like, let's talk about that, you know?

I mean, it is, if you think about it, right, you know, the negotiations, you know, setting things up, that's all the preparation and then you have your scenes or ceremony, all of that.

32:25

And then aftercare is the integration.

I mean, it's like literally the same container.

For the listener who's maybe saying, yeah, but when you trip on drugs, you have all these visuals, like, what do you mean?

When I play like, I'm not seeing things.

I mean, I guess maybe the person who's really kinky is like, oh, I get you.

32:42

Like, I get you right now.

But I'm just curious for the person who's maybe a bit like, well, what are they talking about?

How would you describe like the actual like trip experience of?

Both.

Yeah, yeah.

So I'm definitely one who thinks that the the time space subspace, the sort of mental state, the release, all of that that can happen as a part of a kink experience is psychedelic and that is is altered state of consciousness, right?

33:16

And you know, very similar hormones are released, you know, oxytocin and dopamine, like all of those things come on board.

And some people do actually see right see beyond, you know, exactly we and also by the way, this is the side note rant.

33:39

We all have access to these other ways of knowing, you know what I mean, that are beyond the 3D realm or the 2D realm or whatever.

And sometimes it takes certain activities or whether it's a medicine or maybe it's, you know, the intensity of pain or it to help us activate and tune back into those other ways of knowing.

34:05

So our sensory experiences can be heightened because of that, you know?

And so yeah, you know, someone's deep into a subspace or Dom space, like time moves differently, which is also a feature in in relationship to psychedelics, right?

34:22

So time feels like it continue forever or maybe it goes really fast.

Like we just have a different orientation to that our skin and nerves that might be more sensitive, right?

You know, so our relationship to touch and feel can feel more heightened.

34:39

You know, we can have cathartic emotional experiences, you know?

Yeah.

And, and, and, and I think it's, it's that similar idea of creating a safe enough container in which we can come apart and then come back together, You know, so come apart physically, come apart emotionally.

35:00

Our nervous system expands Right and then.

Yeah.

And then there's a come down on the other side.

Oh my God, that we have to tend to, right?

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Yeah.

35:15

I think some of my most profound experiences of subspace were when I was first getting into rope and shibari, and particularly a pain based.

Shibari, yeah.

Just like, Oh my gosh, yeah.

35:30

Let alone the come down out of that when you come out of those holes, when you've been in them for so long and all the chemicals going through the body and then you come out and like just.

Yes.

It's like I don't have to say words you.

35:47

Know exactly that, Yeah.

The cathartic release of it all.

Yeah, I there's so much psychological growth that is happening in those moments so much because we're we're narrative meaning making beans.

36:05

And yes, when you're in subspace, maybe the narrative is floating away too.

But in many, and, and maybe this is actually because I'm a really big nerd on all of these topics, but like my narrative meaning making going on when I am in scenes is so deep.

I'm like, what does it mean that I have this ball gag and this four person scene, right.

36:21

Oh, I'm a slut.

Got it.

Like even that, you know, like you're integrating that every time.

Like, oh, I'm the person who does.

This.

Yeah, Yeah.

I mean, the layers, the layers, the layers, the layers.

You know, I'm thinking about, like a lot of the psychedelic work I do for myself is related to surprise, surprise, freedom, liberation and a generational healing, like all of those things and power, right?

36:49

My ancestors come to me in my in my psychedelic experiences.

Beautiful.

So when I think about within a kink space as a Dom, right, and thinking about my relationship to power within that space and the and the folks that I play with and their relationship to power, there's a deep reverence for power as a concept, right?

37:14

And for how both of us can be fully in our power, even though they're granting me authority over theirs for a period of time, but they are still powerful in and of themselves, you know?

And what is it like for me in these identities moving through the world the way that I am to have someone kneel before me, you know, And what is it like for me if I were to kneel, right?

37:42

And do, do I do that or do I not?

And like with whom?

And, you know, it's like all of these really fascinating questions and ways to experiment with power in a way that I choose, you know, versus how the world attempts to choose for us.

38:04

Do I self call her or does someone else call her right Like what does that mean?

Yeah, there's layers.

There's layers.

Yeah, I'm curious for you, when you're, gosh, so many questions having fun, when you feel into people that you want to play with, how do you sense their empowerment and their capacity to go to that space with you?

38:29

Because vetting is such an important part of this.

Like obviously probably some of the big variables of taking your time getting to know them maybe in context outside of play.

But like, how do you feel into the trust that wow, I'm about to go into this space particularly even as a Dom, Right?

38:48

There's that.

You have to feel that your sub can say no and no their limits to do this safely.

Absolutely, Yeah, Yeah, yeah.

I mean, so one of my partners and I are in a 24/7 via dynamic and it did, it took me.

39:08

Well, first of all, we didn't necessarily set out to do that.

We just, we oriented towards each other in that way very naturally.

And then we were like, and OK, so how do we actually, like, be intentional with it, you know?

39:31

And still there's times where I am like, oh, you sure you want?

Yeah.

That oh, Are you sure you want me to do that?

Are you sure harder?

Are you sure like or like I'm really hurting you.

This is great for me.

39:48

You good.

You know, you know, there's yeah, of course, all of those layers, all of those layers.

And and so I think it's I don't know that there's a like you, you have a conversation, then you fully trust and then you're done.

40:03

I think for me it's an ongoing absolutely.

Being in communication so I actually don't do very casual pick up play with people for those reasons because consent is very important to me and I need to know you well enough to trust your ability to consent.

40:26

You know I like.

Absolutely, yeah.

And there's the power dynamic of being an educator, someone who has a doctorate.

And there's a.

Whole.

That's a whole.

This is our jobs.

We study these things for our jobs like that is a yeah.

40:43

So I, I hear you on that.

I really need to to like build the build the relationships, build the the trust, the ability to go into those spaces.

I'm very similar.

I've not done pick up play for many of those reasons just because I've yeah.

40:59

And the beauty of the things that you can do with the multi year long relationships, there's so much that you can can build into and hold there.

I'm curious if there are any scenes that feel important that you'd want to share with the listeners that could give like a a touch into liberation.

41:19

I have a scene I'd love to talk about that I told you about, but like, do you have any scenes that because I think one, if you, if this is enjoyable from an exhibitionist space, like sure, you know, people are tuning in, they're choosing.

It's not therapy.

This is our space.

We're doing this.

But I also feel like from like a liberation standpoint, a huge part of our liberation is the ability to imagine other worlds.

41:42

Absolutely yes.

And many people might be like, I don't know what I could do what, what kind of things could happen.

So I, I find that role of being able to share so powerful, like here's what I did and it was fabulous.

And this is something you can do too, just to like spark more imagination.

42:00

So I'm curious if there's any experiences in your life that really stand out.

Well within a kink space.

A part of how I show up is primal as well.

Sure.

And it's, it's a very, you know, root chakra guttural, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

42:31

And when you think about the projections onto black bodies as being animals, as being dangerous, as being violent.

Yeah.

To have the space to allow myself to lean into these aspects of myself in a way that they're not only tolerated, but like can make someone orgasm like multiple times, right, right.

43:06

Like, you know, when I can scratch and bite and like really be in my body in that way.

And it's also, I'm thinking about to like how that has looked as I've transitioned as well and what it means to be in this man's body and like, feeling my strength and my power in a different way.

43:30

And so, so, yeah, so like that is the liberating piece for me is like being with these parts or aspects of myself that have been deemed as not OK.

43:51

I have a place to actually live into those things.

I have a place where I'm allowed to be angry.

Yeah.

I'm allowed to not smile all the time.

So my and I don't mind sharing this, but my name assigned at birth was Joy.

And I tend to be I'm a very kind person.

44:10

I smile a lot.

And people would always say like, oh, you were named so well.

You know, you're such a delight.

You're so joyful.

You're so sweet.

You're so vest, you're so bad.

You're so vicious.

Which, yes.

And that is not all of who I was or who I am.

44:31

And even before I knew I was trans, I was experimenting with different first names just to like, give myself more expansion because I just felt like people were putting me into a box.

And it feels beautiful to be in a place where I don't have to be joyful all the time, where I can, I can actually be angry or I can actually be sad.

45:00

I can actually be indignant, you know?

Yeah.

And have a Safeway to express that and, and process it somatically, you know, like through the body, like letting my body be with that energy and transform it and transmute it and, and, and then create something different from it, you know?

45:25

Yeah, exactly.

Literally as you were talking, I was like, thank God you got out of clinical sight because they got a lot to fucking wake up to.

I'm just like, I'm just straight up thinking like, this is play, this is movement, this is healing.

We're embodying, we're integrating all these disconnected parts of our like, yes, I'm, I'm curious that scene, these these scenes that you're having around primal play and connecting and not feeling like you have to perform your authentic self.

45:55

If you were to speak to your younger, younger self, Hussein, I can't like, what would you say to your younger self?

Yeah.

Yes, oh, what would I say to my younger self?

My younger self was so sweet.

Like she was just like super sweet.

Just want everybody to be happy.

46:12

Very much in my anxious attachment Facebook.

You know, just like.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Is everyone OK?

Are you OK?

Are we good?

I am too.

Yeah, uh huh.

My Metamoris, everyone.

I'm like, is everyone happy?

Good.

OK.

46:29

Jesus.

Yeah, but and then to the detriment, you know, of my own needs.

And So what I would say is love.

People can take care of their own emotions.

It is OK for you to take up space.

46:48

That's what I would say.

Yeah, and I'll add on for myself, and I'm so sorry that your parents couldn't do that for themselves.

That's where that came from.

I sometimes think about like, you know that.

47:04

Oh, if only I had known.

Oh, would we have listened?

I'm stubborn.

I would have been like, no, yeah, not a me.

Like, man, I wish I was living my best queer life in my Chinese.

47:22

I don't know, because that was not like, I will get married to man.

I will do this thing.

I will nonsense.

But I have beautiful children that I adore from that.

But yeah, wow.

Yeah, yeah.

47:38

How deep it goes into the unconscious.

It's so real.

It's so real, yeah.

When you had sent over the intention of talking about psychedelics and BDSM and and scenes, it's a yeah.

47:55

I feel a little nervous to talk about it, but I'm gonna do it anyway.

The scene that came from to mind for me in terms of liberation, that was really powerful.

My younger self could have never fathomed coming in from purity culture, like in what world?

48:14

But being able to go to a play party with all of it was like a play weekend, you know, like which I really love being able to like ground in on a Friday night, spend time when we're not playing, spend all Saturday just connecting with the people that are sharing this home for the week.

48:34

What a beautiful experience and Sunday.

Yes.

Sick.

Like we get to connect and actually feel each other.

Like I love that.

So I went out with my polycule with my lovers, Rasheed, Catherine and Cooper, and it was really exciting.

48:49

We all like shared a hotel together and then when we got to the actual play party night I was like right at the cusp of no longer working for other private practices and working for myself.

Yes, get it you?

49:04

Work for yourself too.

Right, I do.

That's a fucking terrifying journey.

Oh my gosh, yes, absolutely.

All the time.

So you get then where my body was at.

I was like, OK, we're going to the play party, let's have fun.

49:20

This is my highest embodiment.

I have all of my lovers here.

I can do this.

I could do this.

And it was so beautiful.

There was this really lovely, beautiful Dom and who brought this like box out that like you, it had all these different tie points and like, but like put it at the center of the living room and it was really beautiful.

49:41

And everyone's like, you know, the music is loud, everyone's dancing and playing.

And I had had many like pre negotiation scenes with my lovers of like, hey, this is what I want.

So like we had, I'd shared with them, like I, I want to have a ball gag.

I 'cause I, like you probably understand this when we're really stressed out.

49:59

Do you know how nice it is to get some impact?

Do you know how nice it is to just stop the ability to speak?

Like.

So like literally the days before I was texting them, I was like, you guys, I need an ego ego death fuck.

50:14

Like I straight up need an ego death fuck.

Like I.

This is.

I am like this new business stuff is insane like I am losing it Help me please like I love that group chat that I.

Have Oh my God, Eagle death.

Fuck, I'm going to take that.

That right there, straight up.

50:30

Is that not the synthesis of everything we're trying to?

Happen every single thing.

Oh my God.

OK great.

Thank you for.

That literally texting I'm like please help me I can also help myself but I have community to hold me so I can also ask for help when.

I want it and.

So like we were planning and I was like, OK, I want the ball.

50:48

Like Cooper, I want you to hold my face.

I want you to, you know, he was my like first song I ever had.

We've been what, we're like 4 years into it now.

Things change so many things.

But like, I'm like, I want you to hold my face.

And then Catherine, I want you penetrating with your hands from the behind.

Rasheed, I want you to remind me as it's happening, this is everything you asked for, to step into your own business and run this.

51:11

I want you to tell me that.

And so we did.

I got up on that box and I was, man, I was like high vibe on that magic wand.

Just having multiple orgasms.

Straight up high, high.

Vibe because there's a lot.

51:26

Going on in that business woman head.

OK, so I needed that thing on the highest it could go straight up and I did.

I had multiple orgasms and I released and people came up after I was in the latex and like people were like, that was so hot.

51:42

Oh my God.

And I'm just thinking, like coming into this conversation, I'm like, could you imagine ancestors?

Hey, one day I will be queer as well, at a party with multiple lovers, stepping into my doctorate and running my own business and freedom of my money as a queer person.

52:01

Yes, yes.

What?

What?

Yeah, they.

'D be like no, like please be safe, you know, like here we are talking about it and like, it's OK.

That's so beautiful.

Thank you for sharing that.

52:18

Wow.

Wow.

I think my favorite part of that was Rasheed telling you you chose this.

Look at you like.

I know I love him.

I was so I was so worried too, 'cause he's, he's the newest to the experience of like play parties and things like that.

52:35

So, you know, you like there's there it is.

Look at the people like, is he OK?

Is he OK?

Is he OK?

Is he OK?

He's fine.

And like I had asked for that and he remembered, you know, because I was worried he'd forget.

But no, he I fucking loved it.

Like just imagine me with him being like, you asked for this.

52:52

You're getting what you want.

And I have the ball gagging and I'm just laughing as I'm coming just like, yes, this is what I want, like.

Oh my gosh, yes, that's going to say See.

That's what I talk about when combining the professional and the erotic like that is.

53:10

It is absolutely OK, OK, I want to tell you about an experience that I just had two weeks ago.

So I was taking a Tantra course, which has been so powerful.

It's.

53:25

Not gendered.

That's my only like, it's not gender essentialism.

We, I have been talking to the teacher about that and they are open to my reflections.

That is the yes, yes, yes, yes.

They're open to my reflections and you.

Know good for you, but.

Here's the thing.

53:42

Here's the thing.

I have been through so many training programs where there's something fucked up about it.

And it's so frustrating, right?

And I'm always the one.

I'm always the one that's like, OK, like This is why this is fucked up.

This is what?

I raise my hand.

53:58

I've got some thoughts.

Yeah, and I'm still taking the information and doing what I need to do and making it for my people, like, you know, absolutely.

I I hear you.

I listen to the Tantra podcast and do that is exactly what I'm thinking I'm doing.

54:15

How do I mm Hmm, yes.

Mm hmm.

So we had an experience that kind of reminds me of what you just said that yeah, like in really interesting ways.

So we're it's called a love box.

And so one person sits in the middle and there's one person in front of them, one person behind them, and then one on each side.

54:34

And the person that on each side like holds a hand and then the person in front puts hands on the chest and the person behind puts hands on their back.

And then everyone breathes together.

And then the people who are not in the middle being love at the person in the middle for a few minutes and then everyone begins to chant love, love, love, love, love.

54:57

And then it's sort of like a crescendo.

And then for 5 minutes all the people on the outside say affirmations to the person in the middle.

You are so gorgeous, you are so smart, You are so powerful.

I'm so glad you're here.

55:14

You make a difference.

Your words matter.

And it's like all around you because there's four people saying it to you and it goes on and on and like your eyes are closed.

So when this happened for me, I'm in the middle.

My eyes are closed.

55:30

First of all, words of affirmation are huge love language for me.

Double fucking Leo, just worship me.

So I'm in the middle receiving all of this.

And at some point, I couldn't tell who was saying what.

55:46

It just became the voices of my ancestors and the voices of the universe and the voices of the cosmos all conspiring to love me, right, And help me reconnect with the divine parts of myself, you know?

56:02

And so for me, that's what Tantra is about.

Actually.

It's not about the the person or the sex or this or it's as like these vessels, these vehicles to find connection to our self, our divine self, our divine and sexual energy so that it becomes not personal to them.

56:24

It was and and that was the thing actually that I felt, you know, kind of that kundalini rising.

That was the thing.

Wasn't any of the other likes more sexual whatever energy.

It was that moment of, of receiving that, that love, you know?

56:43

Yeah.

So anyway, just so that it's like an interesting parallel.

To that response, No.

Anyway, to that.

Let's hold that.

Let's stay here for a moment.

Yeah.

What a profound experience to be like bathed in love.

57:02

Yeah, and then I had a release, you know, so like no sexual arrogance were touch.

No, like none of that.

It was just like, yeah, yeah, my crown exploded just and you know, all for me, like all sexual releases don't have to move through the general, you know what I mean?

57:24

So it's like there's also like this explosion and becoming in this way that felt just as transcendent as an orgasm would.

Can you describe that in the somatic pieces?

What are you, what are you feeling as that happens so we can have more of a picture when the energy is going upward?

57:43

So it feels like kind of like a fiery water if I know those two things don't seem to be congruent, but maybe like a river.

A river made a fire kind of like that 'cause it was hard and slow, yeah, but it was flowy.

It wasn't like combustive.

58:00

It was like, and I could feel it rising, you know, like with like the longer that everyone was saying the things, right?

It just got bigger and bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger.

And it's like, these are things like I, I want affirmation.

58:17

I don't always ask for it, you know, because there's that that piece of like, is it weird that I'm like, give me praise, you know?

It's important we get to ask for that.

That was actually one of my homework assignments from Jessica Fir and she was like, go around and ask your lovers what they love about you.

58:33

And I was like, got it.

Yes.

Will do, will do integrating.

Got it.

Yes, yeah.

But there's such vulnerability in that, you know, there.

Is right, I was vulnerable.

Can you tell me why I'm lovable?

Yeah, yeah.

58:49

Like, I'm cute, right?

You like me like.

Uh huh.

Yeah.

So the more they did that, the, then it just like rows and rows and rows, the heat rose and then my face started to buzz like like literally felt like bees were in my head and like heat in my, my cheeks.

59:09

And then like I then just like verbally, like just let myself release.

Like, you know, 'cause I had started like as it was moving up, I was, it sounded like orgasm.

I was like, yes, like yes, yes, yes, yes.

Until eventually I was just like, yeah.

59:25

And just.

Like, yeah.

And then I felt the energy like pour out of my crown and become kind of like as big as the ring.

You know, it kind of just felt like, and then I came back to center on the other side.

But like, absolutely needed.

59:42

I needed like I was.

I was felt like a journey.

Absolutely, like quite literally moving through the body.

And that's something some so many people talk about in the tantric spaces.

I, as you're speaking, I'm like holding the consciousness of my previous self who came from purity culture and Christianity.

1:00:00

And so it was very like spiritually traumatized around energy.

Any of that sort of stuff is very like, absolutely not, won't do it.

So I'm always kind of like holding those people.

In my heart and my younger self, who'd be like, what are these people like X out of video, you know, like, what are these people talking about?

1:00:17

You know, and I think that that's where probably listening to the Tantric podcast have opened some things for me.

As much as I am having to like sift through the gender essentialism, it does crack open some things.

So I think to ground this to someone who's maybe like, what the fuck are they talking about?

1:00:36

Think about those moments where you're having a conversation with somebody and you get chills.

Yes, right.

You, you feel?

Oh, whoa.

OK.

What was that?

Huh?

1:00:53

What was that?

Huh.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

You can feel it.

You can feel it, Yeah.

Or you walk into a room and you're like, oh shit, what just happened in here?

Like what?

Yeah.

I see yes, straight up reminded me of one time I was teaching psychiatry residents and they had had a big fight and I came in to teach them and then I like was like whoa.

1:01:17

Right I was.

Like this feels really tight in here.

I don't know what's going on.

Yeah, yeah, I have people, like rub their hands vigorously.

Together.

You know, to create heat in the hand.

Sure.

And then slowly move their hands apart and see if they can feel like some of the buzzing from there.

1:01:38

That's like another kind of way to be with it.

Yeah, it's like Jaya, the energetic blueprints.

Have you looked into that stuff?

Yeah, Yeah, I haven't.

I haven't enough to like speaker recommend, so I probably shouldn't say too much, you know what I mean?

Like I feel like anytime I want to name someone, I want to make sure that I'm like, yes, I trust this person.

1:01:57

But some of what I've seen with that work is like being able to like seduce there, like love, sex and goop.

There's an episode.

Yeah.

Yeah, whole other thing Vimeo there, like there was an erotic blueprint of like someone quite literally doing that where they're like running their hand over the body, not even touching it.

1:02:18

Oh, absolutely, yeah.

But just running the.

Hand over the body.

So like, yeah, like, what a great invitation for listeners to try.

I'm, like, doing it to myself over here right now.

What a great invitation for people to try with their lovers.

Like if you can like, feel comfortable with a blindfold and actually feeling someone kind of, like, hover their hands over you and what that actually feels like.

1:02:38

And and even if it feels like at that moment, like not much, know that every time you do that practice, you're actually building more neuronal pathways into your somatic connection, which will enhance what you can feel in the future.

Absolutely, Yeah.

One of the things we did and learned in that Tantra training too, is like different types of elemental touch.

1:02:58

So like air, earth, water, fire, ether.

And so that would be ether touch, you know, just hovering, just hovering, Yeah.

And just sort of being.

In the.

The spirit body, the energy body and water is more kind of flowy, kind of smooth like that.

1:03:17

Air is kind of like more tickly.

Earth is more firm, you know, and then fire is more like slappy, grabby, scratchy, like that sort of thing.

But like, exploring all of those different types of touch, even as a part of foreplay, you know, can be really, really beautiful and, like connecting to, you know, Yeah.

1:03:42

Yeah.

What does it?

Mean that I need fire when I'm so like in my head, you know, 'cause I need it like I need him, Yeah, 'cause I was.

Just like, like straight up, even like a massage.

Sometime like you can feel good, but in the pleasure of it my head can just drift off into like, well what about that offering I could create?

1:04:02

Oh my gosh.

Did I respond to that one client's question?

Then it's like come back exactly.

Sometimes I tell my partners I was like.

You use the paddle like, straight up, just like, hey, yeah, like I need that And and like, oh, like just even the presence of the potential flinch, you know, I try to relax as much as I can.

1:04:24

But like, when you feel it coming, it's like, you know, it's so present in that way that you literally can't.

And it's so great.

That like you, you know that and know what you need and like are able to communicate that and then have people who are like, yes, I can do.

1:04:39

I mean, all of those things as individual things are like so many people don't like so many people like don't know or don't feel safe enough to say or don't have people who would do it.

Like, you know, yeah, that's why I cry about this work.

1:04:55

All the time, because what the hell world are we living in that we can't feel our own bodies and express what we want and be held in community with that?

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, like.

I will do this work for a lifetime.

1:05:11

My clients at the end of the session, they're like, thank you, that was so helpful.

I'm like, truly, it's my life's joy.

Yes, like I am so happy to help you.

Like this is like truly what I I just I and I, I know that you see the same vision of just like what it means when all of our community can fully embody themselves fully able to communicate fully able to express fully able to welcome a no and rejection and stay in connection absolutely.

1:05:41

What is that?

What?

Yeah, that.

And that has been a lesson that I've needed to learn because of that anxious attachment rejection, right?

No, I know.

I heard you.

Yep.

So that I.

Wouldn't even ask talk about it you.

1:05:58

Guys talk about.

It let's talk about it.

Yeah, yeah, I I wouldn't.

Ask because I didn't want to hear the No, you know, you got it hurts.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And what a gift that I can.

1:06:16

I can hear it now.

I can be OK with that.

And and the other thing that I've really learned and grown into is it is OK if someone's upset with me.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

What?

What is that?

1:06:32

It's.

OK, if they're mad at me, yeah, that part, right?

You're impossible, dare I say, to get out of that?

One right?

Like, yeah, it's a part of the paradigm.

Shift.

There's a lot of.

Discomfort in that come up of that psychedelic drug of nomenogamy, like Oh my gosh, and I made so many.

1:06:52

Mistakes.

Oh yeah, me too.

Yeah.

Me too, and then you make them in.

Community and then you.

Stay with those people for many years and you're like, hey, I'm still here.

I'm sorry.

Yeah, exactly.

My bad, my bad.

1:07:09

But then that's where I get really protective.

Like I've had newer connections, newer like deep partnerships and I'm like do not date anybody new to this.

Do not.

Do not do.

Not, and I, I always get pushed back on that one.

1:07:25

Like, Nicole, you can't just, you know, like, hey, I'm a rock climber.

I need somebody who's got experience, OK?

This is a dangerous fucking sport out here with na monogamy out here.

So like, I need somebody who's at least done a class, I don't know, done a safety check on their harness.

But then beyond that, I, I mean, I really, you know, your, your lovers are going to date whoever they want to date.

1:07:44

First off, you know, relatively, we're all in community.

We can agree on safety practices together.

But like, I want my, my lovers to have that freedom to date who they want to date.

But like, my fear coming from my mistakes.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, Yeah.

What a journey.

1:08:04

Not an agony.

Yeah.

And I think for me, like moving from like the hierarchical primary mindset to more of like relationship anarchists, like really liberation centered has also been a huge journey that feels so important to me.

1:08:22

I don't.

Yeah.

OK.

This is a great question.

How long did it take for you to do that?

What was your drug trip time 'cause I'll, I'll tell you.

I'll tell you fucking mine.

I straight up started with relationship anarchy and I started while I was writing my dissertation.

1:08:41

I did not do the like, hierarchical, the swinging the Unicorn like.

Good for you, you win.

My nervous system was a little shot on that.

One, we're in a good place now but like that's a pretty it's it's kind of like if your first, you know, psilocybin trip is 5 grams you're like, well you learned a lot, you know, it was real scary at first but I'm here now yeah, I made it so we're.

1:09:07

Good, I live to tell the tale and help other.

People slow it down.

So what was your like?

How was your time of your journey?

Oh my gosh, so.

I was, I my first marriage was to this man, this very, very, very African man who was like, you will not be queer, You will not this, you will not like just literally just like anyway, eventually I was like, but I am queer and I need to explore this or I'm out.

1:09:43

I mean, it's more nuanced than that, but that's basically what it came down.

Good for you and.

So eventually we were.

Open OK in a way that.

He was like.

OK you go experiment with women.

1:10:00

At the time it was a pre transition.

He didn't date anybody and he was begrudging the whole time.

Like very much like, I don't want you to do this but do this, but I don't want to know about it or talk about it or do anything, you know, So like whatever ickiness that was, that impacts you, right?

1:10:20

So that was the.

First try.

Second try was with my next long term partner and that one we we both like wanted to be moving from a liberatory.

1:10:39

We don't have say in your relationships with your other partners role.

We aren't hierarchical, but in practice we very much were.

We were very much couples privilege very much.

You know, if they didn't want something to happen, it would affect my other relationships, you know, like me very much.

1:10:58

And because I was in my anxious attachment game, I was very much like, OK, I need to do the things to make you feel better and be OK and all of these things.

And then meanwhile I was feeling trapped and stuck and controlled and angry.

1:11:17

It was just all bad, right?

It was all bad.

And so that lasted for, I don't know, maybe four years.

The one with my ex-husband was like, we are maybe open for two years, OK.

1:11:33

And then now I've been with my current partner and we are very much in a like liberatory love.

Everyone is responsible for their own feelings.

We are not controlling your relationship with other people.

We will take your feelings into consideration as we make our own decisions for ourselves.

1:11:52

We will like like that is what we're doing.

And both of my partners are just phenomenal at their own emotion regulation.

They don't make me or or or project onto me responsibility for their emotions.

So that helps my nervous system settle and I can do something they don't like.

1:12:12

They can be mad at me and they will take care of their emotions and I'm here to love them.

But I don't have to like, do something different so that they feel something else because I can tolerate their discomfort.

This is fucking revolutionary.

This is such an important skill.

1:12:30

I was literally in a session with a.

Client today on this skill like straight up yeah, yes, it's so.

Hard 'cause you're coming from such a good place like you.

Want everybody happy?

Yeah, but it's not fair, 'cause.

It, it wasn't fair to my ex because then I was mad at them because I felt controlled by them.

1:12:48

And really it was me not wanting to feel the impact of what it was like when they were upset, you know.

And so, yeah, I have a lot of regret about those parts.

And, you know, they have the responsibility for stuff too.

But like, for my part, I, I regret that.

1:13:06

And.

And I've learned so much and moving from such a better place now.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean.

That's I kind of talk about it like the the deer who comes out, you know, and is trying to like stand his wobble.

1:13:23

He's like.

You know, and then you finally.

Get up.

You're like, oh, OK, now I know what we're doing.

We still got to grow up and to become a big deer, you know?

But like I, I got the legs.

I got the lead under me now.

Good.

Yes.

There's a lot more to go in that story, but like.

1:13:40

You know, like you've got the.

Legs, right, Which like.

If we're summarizing what that is and and what I'm hearing, I'd love to hear your words to it too, like I.

Love doctor Marie Tuan, who's been on the.

Show very recently she wrote a book all about what is conversion and what I really love about her book and her research and her work is that she talks about conversion as an ethic and I think so many people beat.

1:14:05

Themselves up.

Because they're like I feel like I want to die when my partner goes out on dates with other people.

I feel like I want to vomit.

I am crying in a corner.

And also cause I've been that person.

Hello hi.

Purity culture really did a number on that one.

1:14:23

Been there and you can also.

Have the values right.

Like the values of this work, Like I know deep within my bones that I believe in a liberation world where we can all be in community and that these pieces of intimacy do not have to be things that actually bring us apart.

1:14:41

They can actually be things that bring us together, our love, our connection, our sexuality.

These are connecting pieces.

And I know that's possible.

Right now in my body, I feel deep internalized negativity, internalized mononormativity, just like the other internalized ISM.

1:14:58

So I have this monogamous part, this internalized monogamy part that has a lot to say, right?

And so.

The ability to.

Come to my lover and be like, hey you've.

Got that date this weekend and.

1:15:15

I want to cry.

It makes me feel sick to my stomach.

I want to be able to name that and for you to also be able to know that deep within my bones, I am choosing to do this with you and I want to support you.

Right now, your role is to not take that personally.

1:15:34

I take it away.

That's well, I just gave that to you.

What do you say back to me?

I'm terrified you're on a date.

But but I, I believe in this and I might cry.

I have resources, I have friends.

But I think I'm going to cry.

But I support you.

What do you say about that?

Thank you for letting me know where you're at.

1:15:50

You know, yeah.

Thank you so much for letting me know.

Yeah, because if.

Go ahead, Anne.

Anne.

Is there anything you might need?

You know from me, you know beforehand or on the other side to support you in that.

1:16:07

Yes, yeah, yes 'cause that's usually what I tell my clients.

Too, If you can even end it with.

And also this is what I would like from you.

Can you meet me there?

Yeah.

Yeah, because role-playing this in.

The activated space, which happens for all human beings.

1:16:24

Wow, role-playing this in the activated space.

I say that to you and I imagine you're going to go, oh God, are you trying to control me?

We signed up for relationship and oh God, how dare you.

And now I'm scared and you're scared.

1:16:40

See the thing for me?

And I know what would make me activate it is if you didn't say it the way that you did 'cause you were like, I'm feeling this.

And.

And I'm gonna and I'm gonna take care of it.

But if you were like, Sire, I can't believe that you're going On this date, why are you doing this to me?

1:16:59

You know, you, you don't love me.

You don't do that.

That's when I'm like, that is where I, I, I have to.

Yeah, try to see like, OK, this person is activated.

1:17:14

This is not based on what's actually happening.

It's based in their fear.

It's like so much work that I have to do that I don't always win that battle, but that that is, I hear you on that.

I hear you on that white flag like.

Whoo, my liberation?

1:17:31

'S important.

How don't you dare stop me?

No.

OK, OK, OK, right.