290. The Psychology of a Powerful Dominatrix - Mistress Amalia Valentine
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:18
Amalia Valentine
You don't see the signs in the kitchen of the dungeon that's like. Don't use the sponge for dicks. Use it for food. The dick sponge is in the other room. You know, my friend. She bought me these socks that say, don't be a girl that poops. Be a bitch, that shit. And that was a moment where I was like, oh, my God, I'm touch starve.
00:00:22:19 - 00:01:14:12
Amalia Valentine
The only people that I'm touching are my clients. What does it mean? On like, a political and philosophical level to shit on another human being.
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Dr. Nicole
Hello dear listener. Today's episode is just a chef's kiss of a modern anarchy episode. We have a powerful dominatrix today, and these conversations over the years have been such an inspiration. It pulls together so many of the different threads of the show, the power dynamics that are always present in our relationships, shattering the boxes that we've been confined into and getting to play with those boxes and who we want to be, and then pulling in capitalism and how we make meaning of all of that exchange around sex work.
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Dr. Nicole
Dear listener. You're going to have such a fun time today learning all about being a bitch. That shit's may that be the inspiration we all need today. Dear listener, if you want to go way deeper into the topics we explore in today's episode, I have a full library of free resources waiting for you at Modern Anarchy podcast.com, and that's all linked in the show notes below.
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Dr. Nicole
And with that, dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love. And let's tune in to today's episode. And so the first question that I love to ask ever guest on the show is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?
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Amalia Valentine
How would I introduce myself? Well, my name is a Molly Valentine. She her pronouns. I am a professional dominatrix based in New York City. I'm also a professional archivist. I'm a mean girl. I'm a gross girl.
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Dr. Nicole
We're going to get into that.
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Amalia Valentine
Excellent. That's what I love to hear. And I am also an organizer with D criminal, which is an organization dedicated to advocating for sex worker rights. That's kind of the SparkNotes. That's a little bit of a tease, but we'll get into all of that more. I'm sure. So we'll start there.
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Dr. Nicole
Welcome to Modern Anarchy. So excited to have you today.
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Amalia Valentine
Happy to be here.
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Dr. Nicole
Truly conversations with dominatrix I think are my favorite on this show.
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Amalia Valentine
Please. You're flattering me already.
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Dr. Nicole
I mean I'm just you. Every time I recorded the dominatrix I'm like sick. I'm gonna feel so good after this record.
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Amalia Valentine
I love that that makes me so happy to hear. Yeah. Following in good footsteps.
00:03:49:22 - 00:03:52:01
Dr. Nicole
Right. It's the it's the empowerment.
00:03:53:16 - 00:04:20:07
Amalia Valentine
Yes. I do think that Dom's I mean my time you know being in community here in New York and also just across the US, I find that Dom's are usually very welcoming, so much funnier and nicer than people would assume. Right. We kind of get a bad rap sometimes, but I think that a lot of us are are really just like curious individuals and really fun to talk to you.
00:04:20:08 - 00:04:28:13
Amalia Valentine
And we have good stories. So kind of got to mix that all up out a little bit of charisma, and it's a good conversation.
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Dr. Nicole
And just outright inspiring.
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Amalia Valentine
You said it, not me.
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Dr. Nicole
Yeah, exactly. I did.
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Dr. Nicole
Coming from my purity culture like nice girl back. Yeah. Background. I remember it was a mistress, Sybil Fury, who I recorded with like, way back in the day.
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Amalia Valentine
She's awesome.
00:04:45:09 - 00:05:02:03
Dr. Nicole
Yeah, I know, and she was like, at the time, I was like, I don't know how to do this. Like, how do I. How do I control the space when I'm playing? You know, I can do it as a therapist, but like, actually getting into DS dynamics and she's like, well, it's your fascist state, Nicole. Just do it.
00:05:02:05 - 00:05:03:18
Dr. Nicole
I was like,
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Amalia Valentine
Yeah.
00:05:04:05 - 00:05:05:05
Dr. Nicole
I don't know what that means.
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Amalia Valentine
You're the puppet master. Come on.
00:05:07:20 - 00:05:11:21
Dr. Nicole
I mean, no, no, no. Yeah, I know.
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Amalia Valentine
That it takes some time, you know?
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Dr. Nicole
Oh, yeah.
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Amalia Valentine
It's not it's not easy to step into that mindset. You know, you've got to, like, wrangle with the implications of it all and the power of it. All right. But once you once you find your groove. It's so fun to be the puppet master, fascist dictator. Whatever you want to call yourself a female.
00:05:36:01 - 00:05:48:12
Dr. Nicole
Yes. And I think there's a big distinction between whether you feel like it's a role play or an actual part of yourself that you're tapping into. That's where people can really get tripped up in this.
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Amalia Valentine
Absolutely. And I think that there's something there's that kind of there's that initial layer. But then when you add the layer of sex work onto it as well. That sort of opens up this whole conversation around authenticity, right? And what does it mean to present as a persona that is still connected to who you are as a person, but is also so amplified?
00:06:16:12 - 00:06:42:06
Amalia Valentine
It's funny that you bring that up so soon into the interview, actually, because tomorrow is my Dharma bursary. So yeah. Thank you. Tomorrow marks five years in the industry, which I hang out with a lot of vets, so I'm still the baby in comparison. But five years is not nothing. I've definitely. I've got some notches on my belt, some notches on the headboard, so to speak.
00:06:42:08 - 00:07:09:12
Amalia Valentine
But yeah, I've been I've been thinking a lot. I've been writing a little bit to about what that means to don a persona, which I think people have a lot of assumptions about who Amalia is and what she represents. But I also think. What people might not understand is there is inherently an aspirational element of her for me as well.
00:07:09:13 - 00:07:32:16
Amalia Valentine
Right? She is sort of the ultimate fantasy for yes, obviously clients, fans, people who follow me, but also for me. Right. She's this ideal woman that I have kind of continuously over the past five years. It's like I've been chasing her. We're in this cat and mouse game. I am always, I find, submissive to her in a way.
00:07:32:17 - 00:08:01:10
Amalia Valentine
Right? Like, she she is the ultimate cheese, ultimate muse. So powerful, so kawaii. I feel like at times I'm getting to share her body and not vice versa, even though we try to maintain that balance, you know? But it is, I think, a very interesting line to walk around this idea of authenticity and what's real. And there is this kind of obsession.
00:08:01:10 - 00:08:25:12
Amalia Valentine
I think a lot of clients, a lot of men have this obsession with wanting to see the real me, and not just the persona or whatever. And it's like, buddy, I wish I could. It were that easy. You know what I mean? I'm in a psychosexual battle with my persona all the time. You know what I mean? Like, David Cronenberg could write a movie about this, right?
00:08:25:13 - 00:08:45:03
Amalia Valentine
It's crazy in here. I wish it were so easy, you know? Exactly. And, buddy, I wish it were that easy. But, yeah, I think I think that composition about authenticity is so interesting and is so it's very ripe.
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Dr. Nicole
And I love the authentic New York style sounds going on with you now like.
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Amalia Valentine
Yeah I didn't even notice that. I did not even notice it.
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Dr. Nicole
That's how deep you are into New York.
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Amalia Valentine
It's truly I've been here for over a decade at this point. That's like, it's weird. I can't fall asleep if I don't hear a siren, you know, like. That's strange. Exactly, exactly.
00:09:06:14 - 00:09:28:22
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. And I love starting the conversation out in this place because, I mean, we know this, my listeners know this, but the the global perspective, the wider perspective on sex work doesn't really see the nuance of all of this. The the psychology, the intense psychological development that you go through, that you hold, that you craft like the art, the skill of this.
00:09:28:22 - 00:09:43:00
Dr. Nicole
So anytime I can hold space to talk about all of that, oh, it's so rich because the rest of the world is like, oh, a sex work, right? Like, God, there's so much here. You guys like, we're sleeping on this. This is amazing.
00:09:43:01 - 00:10:19:09
Amalia Valentine
Absolutely. And it is right. It's like there's always this dance that we have to do around again, back to authenticity of, like, pulling back the curtain, but also not wanting to show too much. Right. There's this kind of performer element, almost like magician element, right where I when I talk about it at a party, if I'm in like a vanilla situation and I tell people what I do, I actually find the people who I get the best kind of conversation out of are the people who are like, so like, how do you clean the dungeon?
00:10:19:11 - 00:10:47:16
Amalia Valentine
You know, it's like those really kind of boring daily minutia. But I think it's actually people really are then understanding it both as labor and also are kind of understanding it as something with a lot more depth than just like, you know, the glossy marketing, the personas, the, the beautiful look, whatever it is. And I find that to be such an interesting tension.
00:10:47:17 - 00:11:11:07
Amalia Valentine
Right? There's so much invisible labor that makes our whole world around, but especially in sex work, right? People are always shocked to know that it's so many more emails and so much more admin work than they would assume. Like any any sort of gig where you're running your own business, I'm sure you know what that's like, right? I know that you know what that's like.
00:11:11:09 - 00:11:17:23
Dr. Nicole
It's the wildest acid trip I've ever taken of my entire life. Yes, exactly.
00:11:18:04 - 00:11:50:12
Amalia Valentine
And it is. It's sometimes just so boring. Like, it is so boring. And I think there's something kind of beautiful about that because it is so sensationalized and there's so much morality, there's so many assumptions, and sometimes it's glamorous and sometimes it's crazy and sometimes it's scary. Like all of these things that we see in media, but we don't see the emails, we don't see having to buy more gloves or puppy pads or a side.
00:11:50:13 - 00:12:02:21
Amalia Valentine
Right. Like you don't see the signs in the kitchen of the dungeon that's like, don't use the sponge for dicks. Use it for food. The dick sponge is in the other bathroom.
00:12:02:23 - 00:12:04:08
Dr. Nicole
I love that I can see it.
00:12:04:10 - 00:12:31:12
Amalia Valentine
Yes, exactly, exactly. And I think that sort of that like maintenance work, that care work, that invisible labor is so important and it is often so gendered. There's so much kind of wrapped up in it. And that is, I think, something that I find really interesting about what it means to be a sex worker and what it means to actually showcase an authentic experience.
00:12:31:12 - 00:12:46:03
Amalia Valentine
Because I'm like, buddy, if you want the authentic experience, you're going to roll your sleeves up and help me get these dicks clean. You know, like we're going to do some laundry. So yeah it's it's interesting right.
00:12:46:03 - 00:13:11:03
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. That line between the the role play the fantasy the archetype, all of that into the actual human experience. And if you showed buying the gloves or the behind the scenes would people crave you in the same way. Right. Some might some actually might feel closer to you and pull that others. I feel like it really breaks the frame of what they're trying to escape, which is the ordinary world, their ordinary life.
00:13:11:03 - 00:13:24:11
Dr. Nicole
And you come in to have this extraordinary, often intense experience. And so if you show all of that kind of breaks the frame to the magic, like a movie, right? When you see all the behind the scenes, you're like, oh, it doesn't look as good.
00:13:24:13 - 00:14:01:02
Amalia Valentine
Yeah, yeah. Like that's that's so not fun, right? It is really like that breaking of the fourth wall. Yeah. The kind of disruption of that magic. And there is something so special about all of that happening behind the scenes so that when somebody steps into a space that you have totally curated. Right. Things that they're not even thinking about, like how the space smells, the way that the music is happening around or what kind of music the the lighting.
00:14:01:03 - 00:14:25:23
Amalia Valentine
Right? How what color it is or how bright or how dim what I'm wearing, what I smell like, what I've put on my body. Right. There's so much that they're not considering. Which is okay, because I think there is something so special in being in a space where you can just totally suspend any sort of reality, right? Like time stops, I always joke, I'm like, there's no no windows, no clocks and dungeons.
00:14:25:23 - 00:15:09:23
Amalia Valentine
It's like Vegas, like a casino. Why? So, you know, so I think there is, you know, there is something really special about that magic. And I think it is important to create that because there's so little spaces where we can just have the privilege to block everything out. Right. And especially in New York, where it's like you step outside and you're immediately overwhelmed in your senses, and to walk into a space that feels so controlled is is part of the importance of getting somebody in the mental headspace to then be able to do potentially really crazy things to them, or for them to experience really extreme sensations.
00:15:10:03 - 00:15:20:17
Amalia Valentine
I think there's a level of people are able to let go. Sometimes when they step into a highly controlled environment, which seems counterintuitive, but.
00:15:20:20 - 00:15:46:12
Dr. Nicole
I mean, it's it's directly connected to my psychedelic work. The more that you can trust the container, the more that you can trust and feel safe with the medicine, the further you will trip. And that. So that to me feels so deeply connected, whether it's the, you know, the drug space or the endogenous chemicals that are going on when you're in subspace and you're getting that high impact and all of that, you know, both of those are psychedelic trips that you're writing.
00:15:46:12 - 00:16:09:17
Dr. Nicole
And so, yeah, the more you can trust the container, the further you will go. And sometimes I get jealous of my clients. Like, I just brought one more person into my queer ketamine group that I do every summer. And it's like this queer psychedelic therapy group, and I'm just kind of jealous, like, like there's no other, you know, like, I'm like, the only queer psychedelic group in the city that's doing this.
00:16:09:18 - 00:16:14:13
Dr. Nicole
I'm like, I wish I could actually go, but I'm facilitating, which is beautiful. But like.
00:16:14:14 - 00:16:17:10
Amalia Valentine
That is that is right.
00:16:17:13 - 00:16:18:14
Dr. Nicole
B be.
00:16:18:16 - 00:16:24:22
Amalia Valentine
The space that you want to see, be the queer psychedelic space you want to see in the world. Exactly.
00:16:25:01 - 00:16:31:07
Dr. Nicole
That's a good sign if you're jealous of your clients getting your experience. I'm like, I think I built something good. This is good, right?
00:16:31:07 - 00:16:40:04
Amalia Valentine
It's always the Dom, never the sub, the irony of it. Right? I love that, though. I think that means you're doing something good.
00:16:40:06 - 00:16:41:18
Dr. Nicole
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:16:41:19 - 00:17:07:22
Amalia Valentine
But there's like, so much, so much caretaking in that to me. Yeah. You're just like, really looking out for someone in thinking about all of these little details, making sure somebody is as physically comfortable as possible. Right. There's obviously so much that I'm doing to subs that is so uncomfortable. But I always say that there's a difference between intentional discomfort and an unintentional discomfort.
00:17:07:22 - 00:17:35:23
Amalia Valentine
And we're trying to always mitigate the unintentional discomfort so that somebody is able to really go into that headspace that so many people are craving, right. There's just like so much this world I think is so it's so understandable to want to escape in this world. Right. So to facilitate that for somebody, as I'm sure you, you really closely understand is so special.
00:17:36:01 - 00:17:37:08
Amalia Valentine
00:17:37:10 - 00:17:46:09
Dr. Nicole
Absolutely. So when you are facilitating the mean girl gross girl. So me what are you doing.
00:17:46:11 - 00:18:11:12
Amalia Valentine
It's so true. I love to just I love to just be a little gremlin and show up and unleash that part of myself. I mean, it really depends on the situation. On the context. It depends on what somebody is looking for in an experience. There's a lot of ways to tap into that, to channel into that.
00:18:11:12 - 00:18:22:21
Amalia Valentine
But I think generally getting to be with somebody who is open to a level of.
00:18:22:23 - 00:18:58:01
Amalia Valentine
Maybe not really knowing where the session is going to end. Right. Like opening themself up to something new, feeling safe enough, feeling curious enough so that they can be ready to receive whatever happens. Right. I think that there's something so beautiful in creating a space, whatever the outcome is, where we're both stepping into it and saying we don't really know what's going to happen, but we're going to try it and we're going to rely on each other, and we know that if something goes wrong, we're going to take care of each other.
00:18:58:02 - 00:19:33:17
Amalia Valentine
I think is something that is foundational to any type of play I'm doing, but especially play that borders on the extreme right. And I think for me, the type of play that I like is. Getting to push the boundaries of what the human body can do. And I think that can look a lot of different ways. That can be opening somebody up in a way that is something they haven't experienced before.
00:19:33:17 - 00:20:12:03
Amalia Valentine
Maybe that's through fisting, maybe that's through creating a wound on their body. Maybe that's through a level of pain or deprivation. But my favorite is overwhelming. Somebody senses through grossness, through bodily functions, through piss or shit or blood. Yeah. It's not even people will forget that that's a bodily function. But you can you can have some fun with that.
00:20:12:05 - 00:20:14:19
Dr. Nicole
Are coming to mind. Yes, yes.
00:20:14:21 - 00:20:17:03
Amalia Valentine
70.
00:20:17:05 - 00:20:18:16
Dr. Nicole
Always your first time.
00:20:18:18 - 00:20:34:10
Amalia Valentine
Yes, I do have. There's one snot guy that I've been seeing for years, and that is just like his whole thing. And I had never considered snot before, right? I don't think that it's something people think of.
00:20:34:12 - 00:20:47:21
Dr. Nicole
I was gonna say one of my lovers was paid to shit on somebody. And when she got to the moment, she had had a lot of coffee and she couldn't do it. She got I love her. Yeah, that's that's a tough moment. If you're you're nervous, you got a lot.
00:20:48:00 - 00:20:49:01
Amalia Valentine
Performance anxiety.
00:20:49:03 - 00:20:58:01
Dr. Nicole
Yeah, exactly. You can't. You just can't get it out. How? Like, do you collect snot? Like, what do you. How do you have enough fresh.
00:20:58:06 - 00:21:11:03
Amalia Valentine
It's fresh on on site. Have you done? I make myself sneeze continuously, so I will just, like, stick like a tissue or a Q-Tip. Kind of far up my nose.
00:21:11:06 - 00:21:11:12
Dr. Nicole
Oh, my.
00:21:11:12 - 00:21:34:04
Amalia Valentine
God, I have, like, little tricks. I mean, it's all of this, too. Requires a level of bodily understanding and bodily control that takes a long time to develop, and you're really forced to kind of strengthen that mind and body connection, which I think is really beautiful and can be very meditative in a way. You have to be very focused.
00:21:34:06 - 00:21:47:04
Amalia Valentine
Well, also still conducting the scene, right? So I'll stick it up, make myself sneeze, and then just kind of like blow it out. And I'll do that periodically throughout if it's allergy season. It helps.
00:21:47:04 - 00:21:47:22
Dr. Nicole
When I.
00:21:48:00 - 00:22:15:17
Amalia Valentine
Allergy bill. You know, but similar to to other bodily functions especially shit I it was one of those things to get into my like bowl toilet background. Let's do it. It was always one of those things that when I first started, I just I was like, this is probably something I'm never going to do. At the time, my mentor didn't offer that.
00:22:15:19 - 00:22:29:20
Amalia Valentine
She was supportive. If I wanted to go out and do it, she was like, I'm not doing that with you. And I was like, totally fair. And it was one of those things. I was like, it's gross. I don't know if I'm going to be able to handle it. I don't even know if I'll be able to perform, be able to shit on command.
00:22:29:20 - 00:22:31:00
Amalia Valentine
That seems really hard.
00:22:31:05 - 00:22:31:20
Dr. Nicole
Yep.
00:22:31:22 - 00:23:00:23
Amalia Valentine
And essentially, the longer you're in the community, the more your goalposts move of what is considered taboo, right? When you're hanging out with a bunch of Doms who are always talking about the crazy stuff that they do, and talking about shitting on people or making people do this or whatever it is, you kind of get sort of, if you build up a resistance to it so that you're almost incented a little bit, right.
00:23:01:00 - 00:23:10:06
Amalia Valentine
And so the more they talk about it, the more you're like, oh, well, that doesn't actually sound so bad. Or like, oh, that's what it is. And then I got curious, I got curious. And so.
00:23:10:11 - 00:23:11:09
Dr. Nicole
I love that.
00:23:11:11 - 00:23:37:07
Amalia Valentine
My, my friend who is an incredible Dom mistress Roxanne, she's based in New York. She is also a shit queen. So I was asking her questions about it and was like, hey, would you be interested in maybe letting me shadow? And she was like, very open to it. She found a sub who was open to it, but she told me she was like, I want you to prepare for this as if you were going to shit as well, right?
00:23:37:08 - 00:23:53:23
Amalia Valentine
And she was like, just to kind of see, I might tap you when I might not, but sure, it's good for you to be prepared. Yeah. Okay. It's very generous. Ate all my fiber, drink all my water, ate my oatmeal, all of that. Right. Show up in the morning to the scene, and she immediately is like, okay, you're shitting.
00:23:54:00 - 00:23:55:15
Amalia Valentine
And I was like, oh, okay.
00:23:55:15 - 00:23:56:20
Dr. Nicole
I'm okay.
00:23:56:22 - 00:24:26:08
Amalia Valentine
And so, yeah, it's exactly it was this guy that you've been seeing for a while who's very particular. I remember this so explicitly because it's still so rare to meet somebody like this, but he was like, I only want shit, no piss. And I was like, buddy, I we really making a distinction here. Like, this is a very interesting line that you are drawing in the sand, but okay, okay.
00:24:26:11 - 00:24:43:10
Amalia Valentine
So that became a whole thing. But I remember being able to shed pretty immediately. It wasn't it wasn't very difficult for me. There wasn't a lot of like shyness or performance anxiety. Yeah, yeah.
00:24:43:12 - 00:24:44:12
Dr. Nicole
You're ready.
00:24:44:13 - 00:25:02:11
Amalia Valentine
A truly I was and so I remember doing it and I remember after that session, I had such a crazy high feeling. It was like I was so top high. I definitely had the zoomies. And.
00:25:02:12 - 00:25:06:16
Dr. Nicole
Yeah, you've never done that to a human being for. I imagined it exactly.
00:25:06:17 - 00:25:30:21
Amalia Valentine
It really felt like, oh, I am transgressing like an ultimate cultural taboo. And that even if I don't ever do this type of play again, I have crossed that line and I can never go back from that. Right. And there's something that is so scary, but also so liberating about that. In a way, there was a lot of pride at being able to do something that I hadn't been able to do.
00:25:30:22 - 00:25:55:04
Amalia Valentine
That is gross, but I was like, oh, this is fine. Like, this isn't a big deal. And so then I started to slowly offer it, and now I do it pretty often. I've become known for it in a way. It's very much not exclusively what I do. I do not want to exclusively do that, but it is something that I find a lot of like fascination with.
00:25:55:05 - 00:26:39:12
Amalia Valentine
I think that there's such an interesting parts of human psychology that comes out within that space and that container, and is actually such can be such a deep form of vulnerability and intimacy with someone. I'm also just very interested both literally, philosophically in bodily access and disgust and the politics of all of that. Right. And I just find it a very fascinating realm to live in when it's like, you know, what does it mean on like a political and philosophical level to shit on another human being?
00:26:39:13 - 00:27:04:20
Amalia Valentine
Right. Yeah. And there's so many different ways to take it and interpret it and experience it. And I've had a lot of fun doing it in a lot of different ways, but it is something that is kind of endlessly fascinating to me. Yeah. And a lot more to say about it. But that is sort of my my journey with FTT.
00:27:05:01 - 00:27:41:11
Dr. Nicole
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which we're gonna go deeper. I'm, I'm. Yeah, yeah. So much here. Right. Just the the taboo of the humanness. Right. There's so many pieces to that that we shit, we piss, we die, we vomit. Right. Like all these different things that we just have so much tightness around our culture, around like. And it reminds me of, this is not a go to show, but sex in the city.
00:27:41:11 - 00:27:44:08
Dr. Nicole
It has a special place within, of.
00:27:44:08 - 00:27:44:19
Amalia Valentine
Course.
00:27:45:01 - 00:28:01:05
Dr. Nicole
The culture, insects. It's not good education. But I remember the episode where Carrie farts in front of big, and it's like such a big thing. She's like, oh my God, he's gonna leave me. And it's like, literally, God forbid, God.
00:28:01:05 - 00:28:23:14
Amalia Valentine
Forbid, God forbid. We have bodily functions, especially as a woman. And I think that is what is so kind of abstractly interesting about it to me, which is that we are always constantly at war with our bodies on both an interpersonal and societal level. I mean, political level as well. But that's a whole that's a whole other thing.
00:28:23:14 - 00:28:49:00
Amalia Valentine
But. Right, there's like this idea that with the right drugs or with the right lifestyle, that we can have ultimate control over our bodies. But bodies are these deeply ungovernable things that are so porous and are so are filled with so much excess. Right, and are constantly trying to expel and are acting in ways that we are so resistant to.
00:28:49:02 - 00:29:30:15
Amalia Valentine
We do not want them to be doing these things right. And I think that there's something so beautiful in the fact that the body is always going to be the thing. At the end of the day, that is acting however it wants to act. We do not have complete control over that. And I think to step into a realm that is not only a place of acceptance, but a celebration of that right, of understanding the body and the waste that it produces can be something that feels so intimate, and that feels like such a beautiful, shared experience, can be something that is worthy of worship, even is.
00:29:30:17 - 00:29:43:18
Amalia Valentine
I think it has really allowed me to see my body in a different way as well. Right? When I'm like gassy or farty or whatever, I'm like, I know some little freak out there would pay.
00:29:43:21 - 00:29:44:17
Dr. Nicole
So much in a.
00:29:44:17 - 00:29:45:07
Amalia Valentine
Jar to.
00:29:45:09 - 00:29:48:23
Dr. Nicole
Literally shit.
00:29:49:01 - 00:30:03:08
Amalia Valentine
Experience my bloated, disgusting gassing us right now. And it has just given me like, I'm so open about talking about my bodily functions. Now I can go to a public bathroom and shit. No problem.
00:30:03:13 - 00:30:04:14
Dr. Nicole
Even if there's other people.
00:30:04:15 - 00:30:36:07
Amalia Valentine
Like I really have just released so much shame that I don't think I even realized I was holding on to, because as women especially were taught that, like, we should always smell good, we should never have to pee or fart or shit or vomit or have blood. Right? Yeah, it's like Barbie dolls, Barbie dolls or plastic. And I think it can feel very sort of basic or like feminism 101 to.
00:30:36:08 - 00:30:36:22
Dr. Nicole
Be like, oh.
00:30:37:03 - 00:31:04:01
Amalia Valentine
You know, to assert all of this. But it really does feel like currently the culture is shifting to a place that is interested in seeing women be physically smaller, right? Which very much also extends to the ways that our body and our processes take up space. Right. And so I think that there's there is something that you could argue is political about saying like, no, I'm, I'm pissing and I'm shitting and I'm getting paid.
00:31:04:01 - 00:31:21:02
Amalia Valentine
And people love to see me do this and are find me so sexy and hot. And that, I think, is something so beautiful that I really tried to internalize when I think about this work on a deeper level.
00:31:21:04 - 00:31:27:23
Dr. Nicole
Fuck yeah. Right. Welcome to modern anarchy. Fuck yes. Literally.
00:31:28:01 - 00:31:59:14
Amalia Valentine
My friend, she bought me these socks that say, don't be a girl that poops be a bitch, that shit. And I know that that is like, I think that really sums up my whole thing. Which I'm like, yeah, I need to be a bitch. That shit's in literal ways. And also just kind of extending it to like, the confidence to be a woman who take a space, who has opinions, who's not afraid to kind of be present and make myself known.
00:31:59:19 - 00:32:00:17
Dr. Nicole
I think.
00:32:00:19 - 00:32:09:21
Amalia Valentine
Is such a beautiful sentiment. And, and a lot of ways shit has taught me to, to do that.
00:32:09:23 - 00:32:17:06
Dr. Nicole
Yeah, that's radical and a very needed voice and a story that we need more space for in our society.
00:32:17:08 - 00:32:21:17
Amalia Valentine
Yeah. I have a little angel and double my shoulder but they're little, they're little poops.
00:32:21:20 - 00:32:25:23
Dr. Nicole
No.
00:32:26:01 - 00:32:29:02
Dr. Nicole
I love it I love it I love it.
00:32:29:04 - 00:33:00:20
Amalia Valentine
So I think that that is that's my like poop soapbox that I, you know, people laugh about it. It's funny. It's like if I want to like, shock people, I'll make a joke about it. But genuinely, when I talk about it and I think about it or, you know, I like write about it, I really there's so many other levels to it that I think are really important to explore from a gendered lands, from the lens of, you know, the body is a space of being uncontrollable.
00:33:00:20 - 00:33:06:22
Amalia Valentine
What can we learn from it? You know? I think it's so I think it's so beautiful.
00:33:07:00 - 00:33:39:00
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. Such deep surrender. And even when we think about some of the most natural experiences of what it means to be human, child birth. Yeah. Again, in air quotes. God forbid that you see a femme. Someone with a breast. Yeah. Breastfeeding the baby. God forbid you see that. Or when you do give birth and there is blood and the the whole thing and fluids and shit that often comes out during that experience.
00:33:39:00 - 00:33:43:06
Dr. Nicole
And so many people are like, oh, no. Am I going to shit when I have births? Like, who the fuck kids? Like.
00:33:43:12 - 00:33:51:23
Amalia Valentine
There's you are bringing life into the world. Come on, I hope you shit. You know.
00:33:52:01 - 00:33:53:05
Amalia Valentine
Assert yourself.
00:33:53:08 - 00:33:57:15
Dr. Nicole
Exactly. I love the tightness. The tightness. You know, the scene.
00:33:57:19 - 00:33:59:02
Amalia Valentine
We're so clenched as a.
00:33:59:02 - 00:33:59:18
Dr. Nicole
Society.
00:34:00:00 - 00:34:09:21
Amalia Valentine
You know, very repressed in that way. So I'm always. That's why I'm like. I'm always talking about my poop. Once a year about my poop.
00:34:09:23 - 00:34:13:13
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. Us. And here we are.
00:34:13:15 - 00:34:15:02
Amalia Valentine
And here we are.
00:34:15:04 - 00:34:33:04
Dr. Nicole
Do you notice any similarities in your clients across that. Because I feel like the common trope of this is like oh this business bro who makes thousands on thousands of dollars wants this experience where the power dynamic is flipped. Does that feel consistent or what are you seeing?
00:34:33:06 - 00:34:37:05
Amalia Valentine
Definitely. I mean, are we talking shit guys specifically or.
00:34:37:07 - 00:34:38:07
Dr. Nicole
Sure. All of it.
00:34:38:09 - 00:34:57:02
Amalia Valentine
All of it. Okay. Let's go. I was going to say with poop. The most common ones I get are doctors, which I think is really funny. So. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's when on the surface you're like, whoa. And then when you think about it, you're like, okay, this kind of makes sense. It is there used to such sterile, clean environments.
00:34:57:03 - 00:35:09:14
Amalia Valentine
They they have been reared for years to like, do things in a certain way, to think about the body in a certain way. And sometimes they just really need to let loose, you know, which is very funny.
00:35:09:15 - 00:35:10:11
Dr. Nicole
That makes sense.
00:35:10:14 - 00:35:35:21
Amalia Valentine
And I think also, if you're in a job that has that's very stressful, that has a lot of adrenaline, I think you're also sort of looking for that kind of next high, which sometimes will need to be more extreme, you know, if your job is generally pretty stressful. And I also have seen, and I've talked to other friends who fought this experience, doctors and firefighters.
00:35:35:23 - 00:35:37:05
Amalia Valentine
Big shit guys.
00:35:37:08 - 00:35:38:14
Dr. Nicole
Sure, sure.
00:35:38:19 - 00:36:10:16
Amalia Valentine
But you know, there's all sorts nots of pigeonholes. Not exclusive, but right. I find that I feel very lucky. I think certain providers have clients that really do fall into that kind of maybe more traditional stereotype, archetype of the type of client that they get. But I feel so lucky. I have clients from all over the gender spectrum, sexuality spectrum, job, race, like my clients are.
00:36:10:16 - 00:36:39:00
Amalia Valentine
So all over the place. Some of them work classic stuff, tech and business. I have a lot who work in academia or PhD students. I have creatives and artists and people who, you know, work like 9 to 5, like blue collar union jobs, that sort of thing. I feel so lucky. Like whatever I'm putting out into the universe, it is attracting people of all types.
00:36:39:00 - 00:37:06:15
Amalia Valentine
And that is really fun and interesting for me because again, like, I'm a very curious person. I love hearing about people's jobs and what they do and their life experience. And I think it really like all of these different experiences color people's lives and especially their sexuality in so many ways that I'm always excited when somebody is in my inbox and they have like a nontraditional job or something that's, you know, just I find very like fascinating to talk about.
00:37:06:15 - 00:37:23:22
Amalia Valentine
So I feel very lucky in that my clientele does not hit all of those stereotypes. But yeah, I feel very lucky. I feel I think the thing that is most common for me is I just see a lot of nerds.
00:37:24:00 - 00:37:26:09
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. Like sex nerds, people. Passion about kink.
00:37:26:11 - 00:37:37:00
Amalia Valentine
Yes. Or just nerd nerds, you know what I mean? Like all sorts, which I guess reflects upon me as well. And how I, how I present myself. But that's not a bad thing I love.
00:37:37:00 - 00:37:48:23
Dr. Nicole
Doing at all. Yeah. And it's nice to have some diversity in your case load. You nobody gets a really like feel into all the different spaces and it gives you good perspective. At least that's how I feel on my side.
00:37:49:00 - 00:37:52:21
Amalia Valentine
I was gonna ask I was gonna ask what is your like, what is your demographic?
00:37:53:01 - 00:38:04:20
Dr. Nicole
Oh, I mean these. Well, when I went through grad school, it was all sorts of types of people. Just because I was going through different training sites and everything. Now that it's my own work and practice.
00:38:04:22 - 00:38:09:05
Dr. Nicole
I would say pretty much 90% queer and nominal.
00:38:09:07 - 00:38:10:12
Amalia Valentine
Okay, cool.
00:38:10:13 - 00:38:24:20
Dr. Nicole
Which is really fun. That kind of like hone into that space. Yeah. But then, yeah, I will get occasionally, like a monogamous person or someone who is straight, and then it's nice to have a little bit of perspective, like you're like, not everyone's here.
00:38:24:21 - 00:38:29:04
Amalia Valentine
Oh, this is how most of the world lives. Good reminder.
00:38:29:05 - 00:38:40:02
Dr. Nicole
I sure don't forget like, I sure don't forget. Like I spend my whole week and in my group programs, I have a bunch of people who are all doing this. And then I go back out and I'm like, everybody. Oh no no no no. Oh, yeah.
00:38:40:03 - 00:38:53:12
Amalia Valentine
And you see, like the discourse happening on Twitter or Instagram and you're like, oh my God, what are people saying? And oh no, I've insulated myself against all of this and I'm scared now. You know.
00:38:53:17 - 00:39:12:05
Dr. Nicole
I know, I know, I'm so glad that my group spaces are that though, like like when I get a full space of all non-monogamous, queer folk, queer gender, relationally, sexually, it creates such a nice bubble, like you're saying, to go deeper on these topics in a way that I think the harmony would be different if I didn't have that.
00:39:12:06 - 00:39:30:12
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. But yeah. And I often also get clients who come from Christianity because of my background too. So that is always like a, like I just forget that I even come from that world and then someone will like talk about the Bible and something and struggling with shame and I'm like, whoa.
00:39:30:13 - 00:39:59:02
Amalia Valentine
I can completely relate to that. I grew up Catholic and I write about that, and people have sought me out specifically because they're like shared religious trauma experience, you know, like, oh, okay, you know, and I'll be a sexy nun or something or a priest or whatever. What have you. But yeah, you know, the it's it's really, I think, important to be able to either relate to people on certain aspects.
00:39:59:02 - 00:40:20:05
Amalia Valentine
If you share that identity or just kind of this job helps me be so empathetic. Right. We and I'm sure you can relate to this, to where it's like we are encountering people with so many different backgrounds. I have clients of all ages to which I think that's another thing that surprises people, that the majority of my clients are usually below the age of 50, which is really cool.
00:40:20:07 - 00:40:43:02
Amalia Valentine
And I really like, respect and admire young people who want to explore their sexuality. And they don't wait until they're older. Right. I think that's amazing. And want to do that with sex workers. I think that's so that's like truly so cool. And you have I you have my ultimate respect if you are going about doing that and in a good and respectful way.
00:40:43:04 - 00:41:06:21
Amalia Valentine
Right. But I think that it just really people come to me with all sorts of lived experience, all sorts of like different traumas that they've experienced in which sometimes they're working through that with kink and sometimes they aren't. But I think it provides a space where we can be so open and vulnerable, and I learn so much about different experiences from mine, and it is so valuable.
00:41:06:21 - 00:41:28:04
Amalia Valentine
And that's and I, you know, like, I really want the people that I see to know that that is not something that I take lightly. And that is something that I'm like kind of always integrating and grappling with and thinking about, which can be hard at times because you also have to have your own boundaries, right? There can be a lot of emotional sort of porous ness.
00:41:28:05 - 00:41:33:01
Amalia Valentine
Right? And some people treat you like your therapist when it's like, I think for that.
00:41:33:02 - 00:41:36:04
Dr. Nicole
I can send them my way. Yeah, right. Okay.
00:41:36:06 - 00:41:40:20
Amalia Valentine
We've got a good thing going on here, and you can send your people my way of thinking.
00:41:40:20 - 00:42:02:03
Dr. Nicole
That is what I think. That is such a cool idea in my opinion. Like when I do like psychedelic work, right? The integration like you, the psychedelic. I can do the integration. I think that's like my dream. Yeah. And I might be building the connection just to start doing that sort of work, truly, of like, I would love to do that and then like have a call and be like, well, how'd the session go?
00:42:02:05 - 00:42:07:15
Dr. Nicole
Okay, okay. Take notes. I can see how this connects to their childhood attachment, you know?
00:42:07:16 - 00:42:08:21
Amalia Valentine
Yes. Oh, my God, that would.
00:42:08:21 - 00:42:11:03
Amalia Valentine
Truly be. So fascinating.
00:42:11:03 - 00:42:12:12
Amalia Valentine
I would have such a good time.
00:42:12:12 - 00:42:27:11
Amalia Valentine
Just like getting into it, you know? Yeah. I always joke that I'm, like, at a certain point, they gotta let Dom start taking insurance because we are out here, like, really doing some emotional everything. You know.
00:42:27:12 - 00:42:29:08
Dr. Nicole
You are. Absolutely.
00:42:29:10 - 00:42:56:14
Amalia Valentine
It's people really use us, especially men who generally don't have a lot of good support networks who like, really just, you know, have a lot of feelings but don't have anywhere to put them or not in therapy, don't have friendships or relationships where that can be shared. And so they meet a sex worker. And I think the thing about sex and intimacy for a lot of people is that it can.
00:42:56:15 - 00:43:03:08
Amalia Valentine
Sex can be a fast path to intimacy for a lot of men. People generally. But I see men the most.
00:43:03:12 - 00:43:04:10
Dr. Nicole
Yeah.
00:43:04:12 - 00:43:26:16
Amalia Valentine
And then they can see you as just like the dumping ground, right? Because the the way that the container works is it's like there's built in trust and safety. And sometimes, you know, that means that they don't see you as a full person. They see you as a service provider, which I am. But that means they're just like unloading.
00:43:26:16 - 00:43:45:23
Amalia Valentine
And then they get to leave, and then I am left, like holding the weight of what they have given me and that sometimes they don't have any regard for. Maybe I've had an experience like that. Right. Or maybe what they're saying is kind of triggering these feelings for me, that I kind of have to sort of keep down, have the poker face.
00:43:45:23 - 00:44:12:03
Amalia Valentine
Except that, and then I have to figure out where to put it right. And so these boundaries are so I the five years I've been in this industry, I've really had to get good about having a strong support network, regulating myself, having good boundaries with clients, with people with, you know, myself in these situations, which I'm sure you can relate to as well.
00:44:12:05 - 00:44:19:06
Amalia Valentine
But it is it's hard. It is like always an ongoing effort to to know how to do that, you know?
00:44:19:12 - 00:44:38:10
Dr. Nicole
Absolutely. Especially when you pan out and you're like, oh, this world is so fucked up and the patriarchy is hurting them, and I want to help. But who helps? How do we you know? Yeah, exactly. It's like, I'm just gonna take a nap. I don't know, you know, I don't know. I don't actually know how to solve all of this.
00:44:38:12 - 00:45:01:17
Dr. Nicole
I would love to. And I can't alone. That's all I know. You know what I mean? But, yeah, you see that person hurting, and they're wanting connection. And I know it can be across all different genders. And also we can name the socialization of men is toughen up, don't cry. And then often yeah, they only get that into a romantic connection.
00:45:01:18 - 00:45:23:04
Dr. Nicole
In our society. That's the place you can maybe be soft and even then, not always right. And then you're this outlet, this special, unique outlet. And then, depending on whatever shame they feel about the act itself and societal shame, now they're like, I can't even tell my other friends or these other people. Sometimes they don't even.
00:45:23:04 - 00:45:23:19
Amalia Valentine
Or.
00:45:23:21 - 00:45:28:02
Dr. Nicole
The therapist or the fucking therapist. Yeah. They're like, I can't tell my therapist this that I did that.
00:45:28:06 - 00:45:50:15
Amalia Valentine
Yeah. And I'm like, well, why are you paying this person? You need to be fully honest with them. Right? And why are you seeing someone that you're afraid is going to judge you if that's the case, you know, and that that is the kind of that is the the catch, right, of my specific role in their life, especially offering kink is that this is something that they don't tell anybody else.
00:45:50:15 - 00:46:07:17
Amalia Valentine
And so they're like, okay, well then I can I can just tell you everything else that I don't tell anyone. You know, it's just like the pot where I put all the scary, shameful stuff, and then I pay her the money and then she goes away. You know, it's it's this very slippery slope for a lot of people.
00:46:07:17 - 00:46:27:22
Amalia Valentine
And I've gotten good at recognizing it and being able to kind of like, push it to the side. And I think also in longer term dynamics, I have had conversations with people. I'm like, I can't be the only one. You need support. You need other avenues because this isn't a healthy thing for us to engage in. But it's hard.
00:46:27:23 - 00:46:41:23
Amalia Valentine
It's really hard. You know, boundaries are so key in this job and in kink generally. And a lot of my job is teaching people boundaries and emotional regulation skills.
00:46:42:01 - 00:46:42:21
Dr. Nicole
That makes sense.
00:46:42:23 - 00:46:49:03
Amalia Valentine
Yeah. Which is hard sometimes to be teaching people older than me about these things.
00:46:49:07 - 00:46:50:20
Dr. Nicole
Oh, yeah.
00:46:50:22 - 00:46:53:23
Amalia Valentine
You know.
00:46:54:01 - 00:46:54:17
Amalia Valentine
Yeah, we're speaking.
00:46:54:17 - 00:46:59:10
Dr. Nicole
Emotional maturity and age are not directly correlated.
00:46:59:12 - 00:47:03:06
Amalia Valentine
And we both know that firsthand. I can see it in your eyes.
00:47:03:11 - 00:47:10:18
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. Started with my parents, you know, and then got deeper with my caseload. And I was like, sick.
00:47:10:20 - 00:47:18:12
Amalia Valentine
Yeah. I'm like, oh, you're twice my age, and I'm having to teach you some big life lessons here. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah.
00:47:18:16 - 00:47:41:21
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. Exactly, exactly. And so I'm sure then for for me, right when I am doing all of this. Yeah. My life has, has significantly changed. My sex life has significantly changed. I've had to become more empowered. Every time you have to knock that boundary, the more I keep that empowerment of like, yeah, okay, this is who I am and what I do, and this is how you can meet me, right?
00:47:41:22 - 00:47:58:05
Dr. Nicole
So I'm sure that has also shifted your own personal life as you're going through this, as you're building the skills just as much as like, my relational life is all sorts of weird because it's my job. I'm sure your sex life is all sorts of weird because it's your job, you know?
00:47:58:06 - 00:47:59:04
Amalia Valentine
It's definitely.
00:47:59:08 - 00:48:02:04
Dr. Nicole
Who wouldn't have it any other way, but what a trip.
00:48:02:06 - 00:48:10:17
Amalia Valentine
Yeah, that's. You could definitely say that again. I feel like I've never met a sex worker that has, like, a normal relationship.
00:48:10:18 - 00:48:11:18
Dr. Nicole
Yeah.
00:48:11:20 - 00:48:30:13
Amalia Valentine
Like their personal life. Like romance or sex or whatever. And that's not a pathologist. And say that we don't have healthy relationships, which is true. But, you know, I think that I have a lot of healthy relationships, romantically and sexually, but they're not necessarily normal.
00:48:30:15 - 00:48:37:02
Dr. Nicole
I wouldn't say anything I do is normal in any shape of the form. And thank God.
00:48:37:03 - 00:49:00:09
Amalia Valentine
And thank God, right. It's like such a beautiful thing to not feel burdened. And I think this job has really forced me to look at all of the ways that unknowingly, we hold on to social, social stigma and shame, whether that's religious or just kind of in the general like cultural ethos. There's so much that we internalize also as a woman.
00:49:00:13 - 00:49:37:23
Amalia Valentine
Right. So I think there's been such a beautiful opportunity for me in this work to really turn the mirror back on myself. And, I mean, that's what I was sort of hinting at earlier when we were talking about, there's an assumption that this is a one sided dynamic, right? Whether that's because I'm a professional, whether that's because I'm a dominant right, that I am sort of always the giver, and my clients are always the receiver, and that from the outside might be the sort of dance that what people might see.
00:49:38:00 - 00:50:09:21
Amalia Valentine
Right. But people don't understand that there is such a porosity and there is such a mutual entanglement emotionally in this work. Right. And it is so much of a two way street. And I have had play or dynamics or experiences with people in which I am deeply transformed and I am deeply touched, both in my personal life and often in my professional experience, too.
00:50:09:23 - 00:50:40:07
Amalia Valentine
And that can be really confusing. And that can be so very sort of unsettling when you have this notion of like, I am impermeable, I am providing a service, but that's just not how emotions or bodies work, right? Sometimes. I've learned a lot about my own sexual interest in this job, too, because sometimes I will be engaging in a scene right, with somebody where, like on paper, I'm not attracted to this person.
00:50:40:07 - 00:51:06:14
Amalia Valentine
Maybe this person is like super old or just like, not really somebody that I would go for. But I feel a sense of arousal, whether that's mental or even physical, and it's because of like, I have to then step back afterwards and think about like what was happening. Like, what about that was getting to me in a way that felt disarming and that felt confusing, right.
00:51:06:15 - 00:51:28:15
Amalia Valentine
And I don't know what to do with that or where to put that right. And there's so many experiences where there there is a very kind of like it's almost like a maybe it's too extreme a feeling of like betrayal of the body where you're just like, whoa, I was not expecting that. Or, sure, trying a different type of play where I'm like, whoa, this really connected with me.
00:51:28:16 - 00:51:53:21
Amalia Valentine
Like med fat blood play was something that I didn't think that I would like. And then I tried it, and it was a deeply erotic and intimate experience for me. And so I think there's so many instances where whether or not my clients and my subs know it, like I am sometimes experiencing just as much, if not more of a transformational moment than them.
00:51:53:21 - 00:52:15:13
Amalia Valentine
And I'll say that that isn't every session by any means, right? But some of them are. And it's strange and confusing and disarming and all of these ways that I then have to kind of go home and sit with and make sense of. And yeah, I'm curious if that is something that you experience as well.
00:52:15:15 - 00:52:37:19
Dr. Nicole
Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I remember for my year five reflection, my friend had asked, like, how do you not take it home with you? And I was like, I do. Yeah. Like, yeah. Like there is no, you know, like I can, I can put some boundaries on how much time I think and spend my life thinking about maybe that case or that session and all that sort of stuff.
00:52:37:19 - 00:52:53:13
Dr. Nicole
But at the end of the day, the things my clients are suffering through are things that we've all suffered through and are all currently suffering through under these systems. And it's not like I can go then watch a TV show and be like, well, here's this fantasy world that doesn't exist in the world that I live in and my clients live in, and.
00:52:53:14 - 00:52:54:02
Amalia Valentine
Right.
00:52:54:06 - 00:53:10:14
Dr. Nicole
I remember, one of my pleasure Liberation students had traveled out to Chicago and went to to went to a day spa with some of their friends. And I remember my immediate reaction when I heard it was like, why didn't you invite me? And I was like, well, right, because I'm the teacher. This is right.
00:53:10:16 - 00:53:12:21
Amalia Valentine
Like boundaries of that. Yeah.
00:53:12:23 - 00:53:16:13
Dr. Nicole
And I'm like, that's actually super, right?
00:53:16:15 - 00:53:17:20
Amalia Valentine
Good call. Yeah.
00:53:17:22 - 00:53:25:16
Dr. Nicole
But you know, like that initial reaction was like a little bit of like that, like I wanted to be invited and I'm like, yes, okay. Yes, I'm in a role. I'm in a role. Right.
00:53:25:17 - 00:53:27:17
Amalia Valentine
Right, right.
00:53:27:19 - 00:53:53:09
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. And I mean, that's some of the dangers of the field, you know, like like some people do forget how much of the role they play and the power dynamic and then get lost in that. And that's how unethical things happen in both of our professions, of just people kind of forgetting those pieces. And I think it's just bringing me to this deeper level conversation around the sort of capitalism force that is always here.
00:53:53:09 - 00:54:16:06
Dr. Nicole
And you, me, all of us, the ways that we are, particularly in America, look at each other as like service exchanges rather than human beings. Like when you come up to have an exchange at like a store. Even something like this is when you really sit with like, this is a whole human being right here with a whole history, with parents and people that love them and meaning making and dreams and desires.
00:54:16:06 - 00:54:22:04
Dr. Nicole
And if we I think if we sat with all that all the time, we try a lot more. We'd try a lot more of.
00:54:22:04 - 00:54:22:22
Amalia Valentine
Like.
00:54:23:00 - 00:54:44:15
Dr. Nicole
People dying across the world in this current moment. And we'd just sit in it. I think it'd be a whole different world to like the microcosm that we're feeling when our clients don't see us as real human beings and just receptacles and all that. It's it's a macro of the whole system of just like exchange humans objects, we die and it's like, oh, like, what does it mean to actually be human?
00:54:44:15 - 00:55:05:17
Dr. Nicole
It's like, you're going to feel this. I am moved by my clients, and I think this is how we'll maintain our position within AI and the things that are coming. You know, like you, you pay for a service with me. And did you know that I carry your consciousness through my life? Not just not just always. I'm like, I carry that.
00:55:05:18 - 00:55:18:13
Dr. Nicole
Yes, every single day. You do with your people too. And like, I think that as we go through this, that's what people are going to start to feel more grounding. And it's like, I'm paying for the human being right here. Yeah, I hope.
00:55:18:13 - 00:55:41:14
Amalia Valentine
100%. I think that is so. That is so well said. And it really also speaks to the importance of that compartmentalization. Right? Which is like, we can't be so porous to each other all the time. We have to have those those walls as are important, those boundaries. And also we live in such a deeply isolated society that is just pulling us away from each other, pulling us away from in-person experiences.
00:55:41:16 - 00:56:05:12
Amalia Valentine
So many of our relationships are mediated through technology or are exclusively two technology. We're seeing people have AI partners, right? And like digital avatars are their partners, and that's a whole other can of worms. But I do think I've had a lot of conversations. This is a bit of a turn, but I've had a lot of conversations with friends or people just ask me like, are you afraid of AI?
00:56:05:13 - 00:56:09:00
Amalia Valentine
And I'm like, I feel like I have the most job security.
00:56:09:05 - 00:56:10:06
Dr. Nicole
And yeah, you do.
00:56:10:08 - 00:56:32:06
Amalia Valentine
A realm of in a world in which AI is creeping in and and making so many jobs obsolete, the the more alienated we are from each other, the more that we are craving closeness and intimacy and touch. Right. And a lot of people feel like they can only access that through professionals. Or maybe they only want to access that through professionals or whatever it is.
00:56:32:07 - 00:56:57:07
Amalia Valentine
Right? A lot of reasons why people see pros, but it is such an interesting thing to contend with of just like simultaneous alienation and isolation, but also sometimes this like extreme porosity when we are together sharing space. Right? It's like this beautiful chaos that we're always contending with all the time.
00:56:57:09 - 00:57:06:09
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. And I think some of that comes from the fact that we're so hungry for intimacy. And then when we get it it's kind of like you haven't had food and then you come to a buffet and you're like.
00:57:06:11 - 00:57:09:04
Amalia Valentine
Too much. Exactly, exactly.
00:57:09:06 - 00:57:09:22
Dr. Nicole
You know.
00:57:10:00 - 00:57:47:18
Amalia Valentine
Emotional odd for sure. Definitely. I can always like I can always tell when someone comes to me and they feel kind of touch starved. Right. And it is it's actually really interesting because there was, there's a period of time when I was celibate intentionally while I was doing sex work, and in my personal life. And they reached a point where I realized that I was touch starved, and the only touch that I was getting was through my clients.
00:57:47:18 - 00:58:12:04
Amalia Valentine
And it was like this really strange position to be in because, you know, I would always make the joke like, who touches the toucher, right? Like I am the one providing the service that people are, are projecting and making a lot of assumptions about me and my personal life. When I was also going through a time of pretty intense, like loneliness, like physically, right, or sexually.
00:58:12:04 - 00:58:32:07
Amalia Valentine
And it was something that was so jarring when I realized, like, I remember I had an experience where, like my friend gave me a massage. It was like very platonic, very normal. But like that touch was so regulating. And that was the moment where I was like, oh my God, I'm touch starve. The only people that I'm touching are my clients.
00:58:32:07 - 00:59:02:21
Amalia Valentine
And that for them is like also sometimes for those who are touch starved, they are receiving a sort of regulation from that. And yet they don't know that I am also. Right experiencing this like I'm so much closer to them than they can imagine. And it was like such a vulnerable thing to feel. Right. And it was so there's like a level of shame sometimes that is kind of compounded by the fact that I am a sex worker, like I am touching people professionally.
00:59:02:21 - 00:59:26:23
Amalia Valentine
And there is a deep sort of irony of, you know, you're drowning, but you're surrounded by an ocean in this way. That felt for me, both so humanizing and there's a lot of empathy. But there was also a lot of confusion around, like, this is such a strange place to be, right? And I don't feel that anymore, but I just remember that so starkly.
00:59:26:23 - 00:59:47:06
Amalia Valentine
And it I think it really speaks to the fact that people make a lot of assumptions and projections also about sex workers and are perceived like hypersexuality or like, you know, the types of things we're getting up to. And I have had periods like that or, you know, I do have a lot of fun outside of work, but not always.
00:59:47:09 - 00:59:59:01
Amalia Valentine
And people are going through stuff all the time. And yeah, it was just like a very interesting position to be in. And I remember it so like starkly.
00:59:59:03 - 01:00:19:10
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. Moment of really contending with your, your humanness and the proximity that you're saying you're so close to them in that, but maybe because of the frame and the container you don't share that which is. Yeah a similar experience. You know like in my own supervision process, in my own burnout. And then I go to a client who's like, well, I'm so burnt out.
01:00:19:10 - 01:00:24:19
Dr. Nicole
And sometimes those are the easiest sessions because then I can tell you exactly what you should do that I'm not doing for myself.
01:00:24:20 - 01:00:45:16
Amalia Valentine
Exactly. But it is also, on the flip side, one of those things where you're like, maybe you're going through a breakup and someone comes to you and they're also going through a breakup, and you're just like trying not to cry when they're talking about how sad they feel. And you're just like, yeah, that sounds really hard, you know?
01:00:45:18 - 01:00:45:23
Dr. Nicole
Exactly.
01:00:46:03 - 01:00:51:16
Amalia Valentine
Gripping the table, they're like, oh, your nails, mistress. Like, it's fine.
01:00:51:18 - 01:00:52:13
Dr. Nicole
You like it?
01:00:52:14 - 01:01:12:01
Amalia Valentine
Yes, but it is. You know, I think it is very interesting to be on the other side. And again, maybe this people will watch this and feel like the curtain is being pulled back too much. Right. And in those, in those moments, you know, I don't think it's necessarily appropriate for me to kind of to, to lift the veil.
01:01:12:02 - 01:01:37:12
Amalia Valentine
But I do think that it is important for people to understand, especially people who see sex workers, that we also have our own shit going on. Right. And that doesn't mean you can't share talk about things. But I think it's important to understand that kind of very nuanced dance that we're doing. And human connection is messy and crazy, and we gotta just like, rock with it.
01:01:37:12 - 01:01:43:05
Amalia Valentine
Right? But I think a lot of empathy goes really far in these exchanges.
01:01:43:07 - 01:02:03:14
Dr. Nicole
Absolutely. Absolutely. And if the veil is lifted too far, like, what does that say about your own self? You know, honestly, I honestly like if you need I don't know, I mean, hear me with it, but if you need somebody who is perfectly in this role, like there are parts of yourself that you're not integrating in that you know what I mean?
01:02:03:18 - 01:02:05:12
Amalia Valentine
Completely agree.
01:02:05:13 - 01:02:26:06
Dr. Nicole
Because when you really integrate all and what does it mean to all integrate all of it, that's impossible. But when you sit with all of your humanness and learn to embrace it, I think you can still see that in other people and trust them. You know, it's when you don't trust yourself because of those parts that you're going to look at somebody else and be like, well, you lifted the veil, so I can't trust you now.
01:02:26:07 - 01:02:29:19
Dr. Nicole
It's like, okay, I bet you that's being turned inward. I will 100.
01:02:29:19 - 01:02:30:20
Amalia Valentine
Percent, 100.
01:02:30:20 - 01:02:31:15
Dr. Nicole
Percent.
01:02:31:17 - 01:03:06:15
Amalia Valentine
Such a red flag. When that happens, and it is immediately such a green flag when you kind of open up to somebody. And that just sort of makes them feel a close, a closeness to you or a trust or, you know, that humanizes you in a way that is really like a positive thing in your interaction. Your relationship, I think is, yeah, immediately like a clocking that and making my own assumptions and stepping back or forward based on that reaction.
01:03:06:17 - 01:03:28:07
Dr. Nicole
And my favorite professors were the ones that could be human and say yeah come into class. I just, I just divorced my partner. I'm having a tough time today but we're gonna teach and I'm like wow okay. Thank you. That that is really real. And I've always carried that of like and it was a big piece of beginning this show of like, what does it mean to be authentic in this space?
01:03:28:07 - 01:03:57:09
Dr. Nicole
And I think you can understand when I say like, I don't show up this fully in my sessions because it's not about me in my sessions, but in this space. Yeah, this is actually about me and you and this moment that we're sharing. And I do think the politics of that are really, really important. I do think lifting the veil, because when people get into these long term relationships and we struggled with our sex drive because we see someone so fully, we see them having diarrhea after they had that food poisoning or whatever.
01:03:57:09 - 01:04:00:09
Dr. Nicole
And you go, well, I don't want to fuck you now. It's like, okay.
01:04:00:10 - 01:04:38:06
Amalia Valentine
It is really interesting too, because there is, I mean, something that I've been talking about with friends, this is a bit of a pivot, but since you brought up like maintaining in the context of a long term relationship, I think there's also something so interesting. And navigating Diaz dynamics over a long period of time, because I find sometimes that similar things can come up and happen when you are in a dynamic with someone that you've been playing with for a while, who you really know and trust and like, that just comes with time and opening yourself up to someone.
01:04:38:08 - 01:05:28:05
Amalia Valentine
But as like a sadist and as a top. Sometimes I find it hard. I'm like, I see you in your humanness. How? And I know that you are suffering or struggling in these ways to find it in me, to hurt you, or to cause you physical or emotional pain. It, it's there's a tension right. There is this sort of interesting thing that negotiation that happens internally where I'm like, am I a bad person for not wanting to or wanting to or, you know, like there's so much I think that kind of can come up in those long term dynamics to especially which is something that I've definitely encountered in my like personal Diaz dynamics.
01:05:28:05 - 01:05:32:12
Amalia Valentine
So I don't know, it's just something I've been thinking about as well too.
01:05:32:17 - 01:05:50:19
Dr. Nicole
It's like, yeah, the more we lift the veil, the more you have to process to still hold it in your psyche. I think if I knew the name of every single factory worker, you know, I'd live a very different life when I buy a product from that space, because I would feel much more of the relational connection.
01:05:50:19 - 01:05:57:08
Dr. Nicole
And so, yeah, when you bring that into close proximity, you have to work through what the fuck are we doing when we are human being? Human being.
01:05:57:09 - 01:06:05:19
Amalia Valentine
Humanized you too much and now I can't beat you up, you know? Fuck.
01:06:05:21 - 01:06:45:00
Amalia Valentine
Like it is this crazy paradox of like, what is the sort of mental space that you have to be in in order to cause someone to suffer? And I think that suffering can be so intimate and romantic and beautiful, and it's it is so context dependent, of course. Right. But it there are ebbs and flows and there are difficult things, right, to be able to sustain that and like seeing somebody in their wholeness and their fullness while also being able to kind of keep that sort of DS going as well, not even just like a regular relationship or connection to somebody.
01:06:45:01 - 01:06:50:05
Amalia Valentine
It's kind of crazy when we think about it, you know.
01:06:50:07 - 01:06:52:00
Dr. Nicole
Like, but they want the suffering.
01:06:52:02 - 01:07:21:21
Amalia Valentine
Yes. Please. Please. Exactly. And and it is, it is just like an extra layer of mental math that I have to do. Like we get there eventually, but I have to approach it differently than I have had to. Maybe when we were first playing right or that felt something felt like something that was more accessible, right? Because I felt less enmeshed with this person or less like like I understood the the totality or the wholeness of this person.
01:07:21:23 - 01:07:25:12
Amalia Valentine
So it's very complicated. DS is a very complicated.
01:07:25:12 - 01:07:52:01
Dr. Nicole
Oh, sure. Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. But what a joy to keep integrating your psyche in that way. I know doctor says we shatter and then we don't come back together. But I love her. I know, I know, she's coming back on for round two, which I'm excited about. But like, I think there's some integration there happening when you're sitting with all of that and you're not just running from it or you're re sitting with that.
01:07:52:01 - 01:07:59:03
Dr. Nicole
And that's why I have so much more admiration for 24 over seven sign. And I'm like, you're really sitting with this.
01:07:59:09 - 01:08:46:00
Amalia Valentine
Wow I like relate to that so deeply. I this past year like year and a half. I've engaged in a with a sub who we met through the context of work. And you know, he's still technically a client, but he is also kind of living in the gray area of like lifestyle sub as well. And our journey has been so complex and so unlike any other DS dynamic that I have engaged in before, just because it feels very entwined and enmeshed and personal.
01:08:46:06 - 01:09:19:04
Amalia Valentine
Yeah. And there has been so much again, back to this, like mutual entanglement. There's been so much of like holding a mirror to myself through the lens of this dynamic and having to confront parts of myself that are shameful, that feel very like hidden and deep, a lot of feelings of guilt, a lot of feelings of just so many like icky things that, you know, we always try to cover up or hide from.
01:09:19:06 - 01:09:41:15
Amalia Valentine
And it is so it was so jarring at first to be like, why is this coming up in this space? I'm supposed to be the Dom. I'm supposed to have my shit together, right? There's this kind of expectation of one sidedness of being very like, in the box. I'm pulling the reins, I'm making, I'm the puppet master. I'm making everything happen.
01:09:41:17 - 01:10:29:08
Amalia Valentine
Why am I unraveling in all of these ways? Right. And it is so deeply intimate to let someone in on that, especially when they are your sub. Right. And it has been a process of just earth shattering vulnerability. And on both of our ends, which I think is beautiful and so amazing, but it is so disarming to then kind of as a Dom, pick yourself up from that when somebody when you can't like, bullshit your way through something because someone knows you so well and they're like calling you on your shit, right to then like, pick yourself and your ego up, dust yourself off, and then, you know, keep it moving.
01:10:29:10 - 01:10:55:10
Amalia Valentine
This like truly. And then to have somebody also be able to like, see you through the entirety of that process and still see you as their Dom. And so have the sort of emotional capacity, the like expansiveness of their like love and admiration and devotion to you be able to like, fit around the fact that you are a complicated person.
01:10:55:11 - 01:11:18:19
Amalia Valentine
You are a full person. You are a person that has baggage, who makes mistakes, who bucks things up, who's, you know, full of shit and all of these ways, and to be able to keep moving. And that is like such a beautiful gift. And I think we are so used to seeing that happen on the inverse right of the sub kind of unraveling and the Dom picking them up.
01:11:18:19 - 01:11:47:14
Amalia Valentine
But I think what I've learned this past year is any any DS dynamic worth its weight is should be one where that can happen. And it's hard and it's humbling and I hate it every time. But it's beautiful and it's worthwhile. And I really don't think that you can have a DS dynamic where that doesn't happen. Or if that doesn't happen, you can't reach a certain level of vulnerability and like closeness.
01:11:47:16 - 01:11:58:11
Amalia Valentine
And yeah, it is a struggle, but it is also, I think, a worthwhile struggle. And yeah, has really, put my ego in check at times.
01:11:58:16 - 01:12:17:12
Dr. Nicole
Totally, totally. Absolutely. Sometimes you get so far into the scene that you forget the importance of conversations. I think. Yeah, when I first was learning about this world and all of this stuff, it's like, yeah, it's all about the sub. What are they thinking? What are they feeling in the top? It's just like, yeah, whatever. You know, the D whatever, you know?
01:12:17:13 - 01:12:36:23
Dr. Nicole
But it's like, oh shit, you know? And then you get into it and you're like, that top or D is going through a whole journey of things that needs to be honored and held and the safety of the container for them to go into those spaces. I mean, it is rich and deep and vulnerable, as you say, right?
01:12:37:00 - 01:12:54:01
Dr. Nicole
And so sometimes you get so far in, it's like, oh, this is such a good, rich conversation to be reminded of. And for someone who's never maybe even heard that before, maybe there is a sub tuning in who's never even thought about what the world of their their Dom is going through, their top, their therapist, all these other things.
01:12:54:03 - 01:13:14:17
Dr. Nicole
And like, what does it mean for all of us to sit in that more collectively and actually honor that? Hey, the beauty of relationships is it's like one of those, like those finger trap things, you know, or the more like, yes, I like. I like, like I'm impacting you. You're impacting me. And isn't that beautiful at the end of the day and also terrifying and vulnerable and.
01:13:14:21 - 01:13:20:03
Dr. Nicole
Yeah, well, that's like the whole magic of life at the same time, you know?
01:13:20:04 - 01:13:28:23
Amalia Valentine
Yes. Regardless of if your dynamic has whips and chains or not. Right. Like it's the same shit at the end of the day.
01:13:29:01 - 01:13:32:19
Dr. Nicole
How many relationships have DZ components without consciously knowing it?
01:13:32:20 - 01:14:03:01
Amalia Valentine
Yes, exactly, exactly. And I feel like even if you're not doing DZ, you should be communicating as often and as much you know, as people who are doing DS. And it's so like I've seen DS dynamics where clearly the Dom has some shit going on that has not been processed or acknowledged or integrated, and that manifests in the dynamic in ways that I just feel very strongly that, like, I don't I don't want to embody that.
01:14:03:02 - 01:14:28:23
Amalia Valentine
Like, I don't want to be that Dom. Right. And so I know that no matter how painful or humiliating it is to kind of like crumble in relation to your sub, that is still better than not acknowledging those feelings and letting it fester in the dynamic in ways that are pretty ugly and I think can be unethical.
01:14:29:01 - 01:14:32:19
Amalia Valentine
01:14:32:21 - 01:14:35:08
Dr. Nicole
I appreciate you lifting that veil for folks.
01:14:35:12 - 01:14:39:22
Amalia Valentine
Yeah I feel like this is me just coming on and being like the.
01:14:40:00 - 01:14:41:07
Dr. Nicole
And I'm holding it.
01:14:41:09 - 01:14:51:04
Amalia Valentine
I was literally gonna say I'm having the realization that I'm doing to you what clients do to me. Oh my God no one's a.
01:14:51:10 - 01:14:53:19
Dr. Nicole
Space to me. That's what I want this to be, you know?
01:14:53:20 - 01:14:57:13
Amalia Valentine
And you're gonna go and you're gonna be like, oh my God, she's just dumped on me. No.
01:14:57:15 - 01:15:03:00
Dr. Nicole
No, no, I my frame is. Thank you for trusting me.
01:15:03:04 - 01:15:05:17
Amalia Valentine
Yeah, yeah, I know it's we just met.
01:15:05:17 - 01:15:07:02
Dr. Nicole
And you're right.
01:15:07:03 - 01:15:10:05
Amalia Valentine
You're gonna listening. I can see how this is your your job.
01:15:10:05 - 01:15:13:03
Dr. Nicole
For my job?
01:15:13:05 - 01:15:36:16
Dr. Nicole
And you also know Empress Wu, who's been here since I was more into it all. But, like, unlike the container with your clients, we were trying to draw that line. Like, this is quite literally the point is, like, hey, you know, we started this moment and I said, my intention is for us to feel intimacy. And so you're right, like, you have to lift the veil and you have to just go to have a truly intimate experience in that way.
01:15:36:17 - 01:15:53:22
Dr. Nicole
Right. And so I'm grateful that you did. And I think that I'm super privileged that this is my job and I get to talk to you, and I love doing that. And I just know how many of my listeners are like, wow, like getting to see inside your head, like you're saying it is lifting a veil in the intrigue is so there.
01:15:54:00 - 01:16:11:18
Dr. Nicole
So none of that is vomit to me. It's all very like it's all very wise words and like even coming back to the very beginning, like, I just like I just love when we get to have such like a deep, intellectual, heady conversation about some something that so many people go, sex work.
01:16:11:20 - 01:16:13:05
Amalia Valentine
Yeah, right.
01:16:13:10 - 01:16:14:19
Dr. Nicole
I'm like, oh.
01:16:14:21 - 01:16:15:15
Amalia Valentine
Right.
01:16:15:17 - 01:16:19:11
Dr. Nicole
Turn in, bitches in. There's so much.
01:16:19:12 - 01:16:43:20
Amalia Valentine
And absolutely it's complicated. It's so complex. My experience is going to be so different from another sex workers who we're all bringing our own life and our own identities and experiences. And all of this is like a big soup and how we relate to the people who hire us, right? And who want to see us someone to spend time with us.
01:16:43:21 - 01:17:10:01
Amalia Valentine
It's complex and it's nuance. And that's just why I feel so passionately that, like, there's not a monolith of sex work experience and that we should just be sharing and like putting out into the world in so many different forms, like what it feels like to to live our lives right, which are so beautiful and varied and can't possibly be summed up by an archetype, you know.
01:17:10:02 - 01:17:11:02
Amalia Valentine
01:17:11:04 - 01:17:12:20
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. No, not at all.
01:17:12:22 - 01:17:15:08
Amalia Valentine
Not not at all.
01:17:15:10 - 01:17:38:08
Dr. Nicole
I want to ask you a question. I sometimes ask people and that's if you were to go back, you know your anniversary is coming up five years, going back to that younger self. Yeah. You see her. She's just starting maybe that first client session I know what mine felt like. Wow. What are you saying to her with where you're at now?
01:17:38:10 - 01:18:04:00
Amalia Valentine
That's such an interesting thing to think about because on one hand, I feel very proud of the choices that I've made in this industry, and I feel very pleased to have ended up right. Like all of those micro and macro choices have led to me being right here, talking to you. And this is a place where I want to be.
01:18:04:00 - 01:18:39:15
Amalia Valentine
This is a life. I look around and I want to be living this life. The people that I've surrounded myself with are incredible and wonderful. I have an incredible community. I really found my own niche in the community as well. So there's really I think the mistakes that I made were very necessary in getting here, and I don't think that I would want to take the the privilege, even if they felt shitty at the time, the privilege of those mistakes, you know, like I she deserves to learn those things and she deserves to learn them on her own terms.
01:18:39:17 - 01:18:43:08
Amalia Valentine
You can't sometimes you don't know where the fire is until you put your freaking hand in it. You know.
01:18:43:12 - 01:18:45:10
Dr. Nicole
I'm one stubborn, stubborn, stubborn.
01:18:45:12 - 01:18:51:04
Amalia Valentine
Me, too. What is your sign? What is your. What's your Virgo? Oh you're okay.
01:18:51:06 - 01:18:52:00
Dr. Nicole
Leo. Cusp.
01:18:52:03 - 01:19:01:10
Amalia Valentine
Okay, I see I'm a Leo, so both strong willed, stubborn. Our way is the best way, you know.
01:19:01:12 - 01:19:02:04
Dr. Nicole
And charge.
01:19:02:07 - 01:19:04:13
Amalia Valentine
I'm like. I don't even know if she would listen to me. Honestly.
01:19:04:13 - 01:19:05:09
Amalia Valentine
I guess.
01:19:05:11 - 01:19:07:13
Dr. Nicole
My my thing is, she'd be like, you don't.
01:19:07:13 - 01:19:13:17
Amalia Valentine
Know me. Like, okay, I know. Interesting. Yeah, really. And I love her for that.
01:19:13:18 - 01:19:15:08
Dr. Nicole
But she's hot. Yeah.
01:19:15:09 - 01:19:44:03
Amalia Valentine
Yeah. Truly. I feel like I'm really, I think just giving her the words of advice of trust your gut. You know, you're gonna meet people that you don't align with. And don't be afraid to walk away from a dynamic, professional or personal that ultimately is not serving you. I think she had a lot of anxiety, like money, and I think she was really had like a scarcity mindset around things, which is so understandable.
01:19:44:03 - 01:20:03:12
Amalia Valentine
That's why a lot of us get into sex work, right? To give ourselves a modicum of stability. And but that can really tether you to situations in which you're being taken advantage of and that are not serving you. And I think I would tell her to walk away from something sooner. I think she could have learned those lessons and cut it off a little bit sooner.
01:20:03:12 - 01:20:06:15
Amalia Valentine
But, you know, sometimes you gotta let it linger.
01:20:06:17 - 01:20:07:14
Dr. Nicole
That.
01:20:07:16 - 01:20:16:16
Amalia Valentine
You know, maybe that would be some helpful advice, but I don't know. I think I would tell her, grow out her hair sooner.
01:20:16:18 - 01:20:17:12
Amalia Valentine
01:20:17:13 - 01:20:41:23
Amalia Valentine
Get get more latex. I was really against latex for a while, and now I'm really into it, and I'm like, you should run into that sooner. Yeah, I don't know. I feel it feels like a privilege to reflect on the past five years and think that I wouldn't change much. And the decisions that I made are decisions that, for the most part, I really stand by and feel really proud of.
01:20:42:00 - 01:20:47:06
Amalia Valentine
So yeah, I'll have to think on that more. That's a really a good question. Yeah, but.
01:20:47:07 - 01:20:49:09
Dr. Nicole
Yeah, always a profound one when you really say.
01:20:49:12 - 01:20:51:15
Amalia Valentine
What about you? What would you say to yourself?
01:20:51:17 - 01:20:55:07
Dr. Nicole
Well,
01:20:55:09 - 01:21:00:00
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. For thinking like my first session walking in.
01:21:00:02 - 01:21:01:12
Amalia Valentine
That was a hot mess.
01:21:01:13 - 01:21:02:09
Dr. Nicole
Oh, yeah.
01:21:02:09 - 01:21:03:07
Amalia Valentine
Yeah yeah yeah yeah.
01:21:03:11 - 01:21:11:13
Dr. Nicole
Yeah yeah. I, you know, I think I, I'm in a similar place to you of, like, I wouldn't have taken any advice because I've been like no I know.
01:21:11:14 - 01:21:12:01
Amalia Valentine
Yeah.
01:21:12:05 - 01:21:25:13
Dr. Nicole
Absolutely not. No. Don't tell me. And I'm working on that part. I think I've gotten a little bit better. I've got some mentors I trust now that I can, I can listen to and really grapple with that. But I think.
01:21:25:15 - 01:21:48:22
Dr. Nicole
If I were to go back to that moment, I would tell myself that being with somebody is the most profound thing you can do. Because I know at that time I'm in school and I'm learning all the different theoretical orientations and all of the work of that. And I did have an existential professor who would really try to hone that into us of like, be with the client, don't.
01:21:49:00 - 01:21:50:16
Amalia Valentine
Get somebody.
01:21:50:21 - 01:22:13:08
Dr. Nicole
Be with somebody. And so I think, and then also in that don't try to push somebody out of where they are at so quickly, because I think that was something, you know, like people coming in in and it was it was fucking horrible and challenging in the beginning because people would come in and be like, I had this abusive dynamic and I'm the reason why.
01:22:13:10 - 01:22:15:12
Dr. Nicole
And every part of me wants to be like, no.
01:22:15:17 - 01:22:17:13
Amalia Valentine
No, no, no, no.
01:22:17:17 - 01:22:21:09
Dr. Nicole
And then my mentors would be like, you have to ask the person why they feel that way.
01:22:21:10 - 01:22:21:20
Amalia Valentine
And I'm like.
01:22:21:21 - 01:22:23:19
Amalia Valentine
I felt like there at yeah.
01:22:23:20 - 01:22:24:23
Amalia Valentine
But I want to get them out.
01:22:25:04 - 01:22:47:08
Dr. Nicole
But you're like, oh shit. You know? So like, yeah, I guess like slowing down, meeting people where they're at, trusting that that presence actually is way more than any textbook could ever teach you. And then also buckle up, bitch, because you're about to go for a wild ride with your podcast that you have no idea, like it's going to be bigger than you can imagine.
01:22:47:10 - 01:22:48:02
Dr. Nicole
Like.
01:22:48:04 - 01:22:59:01
Amalia Valentine
That's so beautiful. That's so beautiful. Oh, I love that. And I think about like, what is me in five years going to say to me now, you know.
01:22:59:03 - 01:23:03:13
Dr. Nicole
Do you want to answer that question? I've done that before. If you were talking, what do you think she would say to you now?
01:23:03:15 - 01:23:04:17
Amalia Valentine
01:23:04:19 - 01:23:08:20
Amalia Valentine
I hope that she would say the same thing that I said about myself five years ago.
01:23:09:01 - 01:23:09:12
Amalia Valentine
Yeah.
01:23:09:14 - 01:23:24:03
Amalia Valentine
And that my, my mistakes were necessary. I made a lot of good choices. I have good people around me. I think she's going to say those things. Would love any advice on like my look.
01:23:24:05 - 01:23:24:23
Dr. Nicole
You look great.
01:23:25:01 - 01:23:47:08
Amalia Valentine
Would would be so open to hearing what she has to say about that. Bangs or no bangs? No. But yeah, I really hope that she is has just, like, gone further than where I was. And I feel like I went a lot further than where I was five years ago. And me, like me back then, would be so proud of me now.
01:23:47:09 - 01:24:09:08
Amalia Valentine
And I yeah, I really hope that the same can be said for myself in five years. Like, I think that is like the biggest gift I could give myself. In. The biggest way that I can trust myself is to just, like, rely on my gut, make those good decisions, be intentional, and have a little bit of luck thrown in there you know.
01:24:09:09 - 01:24:11:03
Dr. Nicole
Yeah.
01:24:11:05 - 01:24:12:05
Amalia Valentine
Yeah yeah.
01:24:12:08 - 01:24:13:19
Dr. Nicole
But keep playing with it as.
01:24:13:21 - 01:24:15:04
Amalia Valentine
We'll be back here five years.
01:24:15:08 - 01:24:18:09
Dr. Nicole
Oh yeah. Hopefully sooner than that.
01:24:18:11 - 01:24:20:03
Amalia Valentine
Sounds good.
01:24:20:05 - 01:24:22:09
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful.
01:24:22:12 - 01:24:23:07
Amalia Valentine
Yeah.
01:24:23:09 - 01:24:26:16
Dr. Nicole
Well it was such a joy to have you on the podcast today. Thank you. I had.
01:24:26:18 - 01:24:44:10
Amalia Valentine
Such a lovely time talking with you. You're so easy to talk to. I can see why you've been doing this for five years. So easy to just, like, yap about so much. I could really enjoy it. I was like, where are we going to go? What are we going to talk about? And then it just, we co-created it, which is so beautiful.
01:24:44:12 - 01:24:56:09
Amalia Valentine
What a what a gift. But yeah. Thank you so much. This was such a lovely experience. And I'm really excited to see, like, where this goes for you.
01:24:56:11 - 01:25:02:05
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. Thank you for joining me in it and supporting me at the same time with that. Yeah. Such a joy.
01:25:02:06 - 01:25:04:09
Amalia Valentine
So excited.
01:25:04:11 - 01:25:08:15
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. Okay. Well let's take our deep breath together again.
01:25:08:19 - 01:25:14:07
Amalia Valentine
Definitely.
01:25:14:09 - 01:25:25:14
Dr. Nicole
Okay, so the final question that I ask everyone on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?
01:25:25:16 - 01:25:27:16
Amalia Valentine
Whoa. Okay. Yeah.
01:25:27:21 - 01:25:32:20
Dr. Nicole
This other than shit and piss. Come on. I mean, unless you want to go there, we can go there again.
01:25:32:22 - 01:25:50:01
Amalia Valentine
No, I think I said. I said my piece about that. I think I normalized that enough on here. One thing that I think should be more normal and this, this is anything that I think. Anything I think that.
01:25:50:03 - 01:26:09:10
Amalia Valentine
I mean, just to kind of to round it out, bring it back to like, Dom's fuck up like Dom's make mistakes. We are people. We don't always have the right answer. And I think I want to normalize.
01:26:09:12 - 01:26:31:20
Amalia Valentine
Dom's being open to receiving that and hearing that right. And having a sort of. I think we're all very stubborn. And there's a reason we are good at our jobs and find ourselves in this position. But, I think understanding that like being wrong. Taking a step back, looking at yourself, being called out, whether that's by your sub or somebody else, like, is not a failure.
01:26:31:22 - 01:27:01:07
Amalia Valentine
It's not a form of weakness, right? We don't always have to have our shit together all the time. And in fact, I think it is the ultimate and most powerful thing that you can do is to, like, sit with the discomfort of knowing that maybe I messed up or maybe I did something wrong. Or maybe I need to be accountable and I need to say sorry, or I need to, like, be honest that something isn't feeling right with myself or I need to, like, share that right.
01:27:01:09 - 01:27:33:16
Amalia Valentine
And yeah, that's not a weakness. That is a really beautiful gift to give to yourself, to the people around you. And I think we need to normalize that more in the community. I think we can all get very caught up in our egos and expectations around what dominance means. And the type of dominance that I want to have is one that is receptive and open and can be held accountable.
01:27:33:18 - 01:27:56:09
Amalia Valentine
Right. And can be self-reflective. So that is something that I feel very invested in. And I hope that in saying that I can give other Doms permission to be that way as well, and we should have subs that support us in that right, and can be with us in heart moments. So yeah, it's that easy.
01:27:56:10 - 01:28:15:09
Dr. Nicole
Yeah, yeah. Like you said, being a human being, your human being. I mean, I remember the first time one of my therapists said sorry in a session, and it rocked my world way before I got into the field because there was so much reverence for the position and the power dynamic. And so when she said that, I was like, whoa.
01:28:15:11 - 01:28:38:16
Dr. Nicole
And so, yeah, the the ability to take accountability, it also reminded me of, you know, as someone who's polyamorous, you have multiple partners who can talk about how you are as a human being and get support from one another. And one of my partners had shared to another, like, Nicole's just a human being. She studies this stuff, but she can also be hypocritical.
01:28:38:18 - 01:28:39:10
Amalia Valentine
Yeah.
01:28:39:12 - 01:28:53:20
Dr. Nicole
You know, you just have to doubt like download that because they I think they look at me similarly like a doll. I'm like, oh, she's got it all figured out. And then I fuck up in my own interpersonal dynamics. And just to remember that, like, I am a human being that's capable of hypocrisy to just as much as the next person, you know.
01:28:53:23 - 01:29:07:23
Amalia Valentine
Exactly. I think that very much expands beyond whether or not you're a Dom or a dominant. You're a person, you're a human. We all deserve. And whatever environment or relationship it is to be a human right and to be messy.
01:29:08:02 - 01:29:09:18
Amalia Valentine
01:29:09:22 - 01:29:11:13
Amalia Valentine
New York she loves. She's she's.
01:29:11:13 - 01:29:12:08
Dr. Nicole
With me.
01:29:12:10 - 01:29:16:17
Amalia Valentine
She's agreeing with me. She has something to say.
01:29:16:18 - 01:29:24:11
Dr. Nicole
I love the personification. My friend who's also in New York. Every time we send a voice message back she's like oh New York says hi in the sirens. Yeah.
01:29:24:13 - 01:29:27:17
Amalia Valentine
Like hello New York, I love you.
01:29:27:19 - 01:29:30:10
Amalia Valentine
I love it. Are you. We are. Where are you based?
01:29:30:11 - 01:29:31:12
Dr. Nicole
Chicago. Chicago.
01:29:31:15 - 01:29:31:22
Amalia Valentine
Oh.
01:29:31:23 - 01:29:37:19
Amalia Valentine
You're in Chicago. Oh, my God, I feel like that completely slipped my mind. Chicago's beautiful.
01:29:37:21 - 01:29:42:02
Dr. Nicole
It is beautiful. And a little bit more chill. A little bit more chill.
01:29:42:04 - 01:29:44:01
Amalia Valentine
The Midwestern chill, for sure.
01:29:44:03 - 01:29:52:17
Dr. Nicole
Right. And I'm, like, tucked in a U. Building. So I'm at the you. So then I'm kind of away from the streets and I hear less of it. Like, which is perfect for a podcast.
01:29:52:19 - 01:30:00:16
Amalia Valentine
Yeah. I would not be able to to rock with this every single day. She's got a lot to say. I understand.
01:30:00:18 - 01:30:02:23
Amalia Valentine
She does. She does.
01:30:03:01 - 01:30:24:04
Dr. Nicole
Thank you so much for your vulnerability. Thank you so much for the humanness and made this conversation ripple into so, so many hearts and lives about what it means to hold space for all of our humanness. And I'm already, like, transformative justice. What are we like? There's so many other conversations we could ripple into with this. But yeah, we'll pause for today and do it again some other time.
01:30:24:07 - 01:30:33:18
Dr. Nicole
But I'm sure everyone wants to know how can they work with you? How can they follow you? You're working on an archive. There's so much more that you have.
01:30:33:20 - 01:30:35:11
Amalia Valentine
So, so much to get into.
01:30:35:15 - 01:30:36:18
Amalia Valentine
Plug away.
01:30:36:20 - 01:31:00:19
Amalia Valentine
Thank you. Well. My website. I'm Valentine. Com. If you want to book me, collaborate with me. Whatever it is, you can fill out my form on that site. Who knows if my social media pages will still be up by the time this comes out? Who's to say? But my Instagram is at Amalia Dot Valentine. My Twitter is at Sir Valentine.
01:31:00:20 - 01:31:32:11
Amalia Valentine
My blue skies also serve. Valentine. Serve not sir. Serve. I also, as I said earlier, I'm an organizer with Secret New York. Would love for everybody to follow our work to plug into that. By the time this airs, we will have set up our giving circle, and that should be public. And that is a great way to give consistently to sex worker rights, where we're doing both legislative work and outreach advocacy.
01:31:32:12 - 01:31:56:23
Amalia Valentine
Cool. So would love for folks to stay up to date. You can follow us at decriminalize on all social platforms and decriminalize. Dot com. Yeah. I feel like that's pretty much it. I'm always I've got my hat in the books. I've got an archive I'm building. If you want to send me books, send me stuff. Visit my archive.
01:31:57:00 - 01:31:59:15
Amalia Valentine
If you're a worker, you are very welcome to. Is that a cat?
01:31:59:17 - 01:32:00:20
Dr. Nicole
It is a catch.
01:32:00:21 - 01:32:02:16
Amalia Valentine
I was like, you missed the.
01:32:02:18 - 01:32:03:12
Amalia Valentine
It has a tail.
01:32:03:13 - 01:32:06:20
Amalia Valentine
Okay.
01:32:06:22 - 01:32:13:01
Dr. Nicole
Yeah. No. She usually comes in on time, but sometimes she comes in at the end. She must have been taking a little cat nap during our session. It's.
01:32:13:01 - 01:32:16:05
Amalia Valentine
It's hot, I get it. No worries. What's her name?
01:32:16:07 - 01:32:20:10
Dr. Nicole
Fat cat. Oh, yeah. This is fat Cat.
01:32:20:12 - 01:32:23:19
Amalia Valentine
I live with. I live with a cat, and we call her tiny Cat.
01:32:23:19 - 01:32:25:22
Dr. Nicole
So is she actually tiny?
01:32:25:23 - 01:32:28:09
Amalia Valentine
She's rotund, but small.
01:32:28:11 - 01:32:44:18
Dr. Nicole
Okay. Okay. Specific? Yeah, exactly. I love the juxtaposition. She's actually rather petite, a little petite, and she had more of a belly when I first got her, but she's she's kind of leaned out now that she gets played with. I know. Yeah, yeah. Okay. She is the co-host.
01:32:44:20 - 01:32:49:04
Amalia Valentine
Of course I'm. I'm sure she's the real Dom running the show.
01:32:49:05 - 01:32:54:23
Dr. Nicole
Right, exactly. This is her house. I pay her rent and I clean up her litter box, and I feed her.
01:32:55:02 - 01:33:02:11
Amalia Valentine
Yeah, exactly. And I think that's exactly how it should be. So an honor and a privilege to meet you, fat cat. Yeah, exactly.
01:33:02:12 - 01:33:05:17
Dr. Nicole
As she gets royally pet whenever the fuck she was.
01:33:05:19 - 01:33:08:05
Amalia Valentine
And that's how it should be.
01:33:08:07 - 01:33:09:04
Dr. Nicole
Amazing.
01:33:09:06 - 01:33:10:05
Amalia Valentine
Well, thank you.
01:33:10:05 - 01:33:12:10
Dr. Nicole
So much. Were there more links? No, no, that's.
01:33:12:11 - 01:33:15:18
Amalia Valentine
I've. I'm linked out. I'm all good. So thank you.
01:33:15:21 - 01:33:22:09
Dr. Nicole
Good. Of course. Such a joy. I'll have all of it linked in the show notes below for you. So that way listeners can go and yes. So thank you.
01:33:22:10 - 01:33:40:10
Amalia Valentine
This is great. Thank you, Doctor Cole. It was so lovely. I like calling you Doctor Nicole. That feels very like formal. Thank you for having such a wonderful platform and for making me feel so comfortable to share. It's been an honor and a pleasure and so excited to see what you do next.
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