287. Learning the Embodied Language of Pleasure – Brandon Hunter-Haydon
Dr. Nicole (00:00)
Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole.
On today's episode, we have Brandon join us for a conversation about building the skills to confidently communicate our desires. Together we talk about queering surrogate partner therapy, when your sexual boundaries bring you into closer connection, and expanding our window of capacity for pleasure. Hello, dear listener and
Welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I'm so delighted that you are here and tuning in with the pleasure activists from around the world. I'm Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, author of the psychedelic jealousy guide and the first study on relationship anarchy. And I teach students from around the world how to craft pleasurable sex lives and non-monogamous relationships. Dear listener.
Brandon is such a special guest, such of a special guest. Okay, this is a round two, dear listener. Gotta go back and listen to round one. God, what is this like? Yeah, was it 2002? I don't know. It was so many years ago now. My God. Probably a little embarrassed to know maybe what's back there. I'm sure it's great. I'm sure it's awesome. But we change, we grow.
But you know what has stayed consistent for sure over the years is our passion for liberation. And that is so prevalent in this conversation with Brandon. You can just feel it. again, these moments where I have guests who can understand how much Eros is at the heart of our collective liberation of a world where we care about one another and we
make different decisions than the world is currently making. One of those ones where we see each other as humans and other beings and care for the future of this world and this planet that's gonna exist after you and I both die in this lifetime thing. Like yeah, yeah, those are powerful conversations. and dear listener, you're gonna learn so much today about what it means to speak your desires both to yourself, to others, and in community. So.
Dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and all my free resources at modernanarchypodcast.com, linked in the show notes below. And wow, dear listener, I sent out the save the date for the video. Okay, on the pleasure liberation newsletter, I sent out the save the date. It's so exciting that I'm gonna be having a video for you in just two weeks. What?
It's a new song. We have a new song coming. It's not even the same theme song anymore. I mean, whoa. It's gonna be a whole brand new little adventure we're going on together. Dear listener, I'm so excited that you're gonna be here for the release. if you missed the save the date, hey, you can join the newsletter. It'll be sent into your inbox, and I'm so excited for you to be joining. It's a pleasure to have you in this community. So hi.
And thank you to all my Patreon supporters. I don't forget you. Hello. Thank you for supporting me for the last five years to make this show and to make this educational content and for joining me on all the personal shares of my intimate life that you have supported me along the way with. So thank you. And with that, dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love. And let's tune in to today's episode.
Each guest is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?
I know.
Brandon (04:35)
Feel like this is without my cans, like professional one. I feel like I I toe the line between what is the like juicy rich way that I want to enter a room and and which way is like kind of insufferable. And it might be both. yeah, I think I think what I'll start with is I'm Brandon Hunter Hayden. I am a surrogate partner, an intimacy coach, recovering clinician.
Dr. Nicole (05:03)
Yeah. We should talk about that.
Brandon (05:07)
about
that. And and fully certified couple therapist.
Dr. Nicole (05:11)
Cool, very cool. Excited to have you on the show for a second time. Excited.
Brandon (05:19)
I was just thinking about it. You know, it's I think it was last time we saw each other in person was probab was maybe like 2022 in Chicago. I remember we met. And and then we had our recording shortly after that. And this is actually before you this was you were still working on your on your dissertation at the time too. Yeah.
Dr. Nicole (05:35)
I was in it. I was in it. Like,
Brandon (05:38)
You were in it. Yeah.
Dr. Nicole (05:39)
how are you? And I'm like, busy, busy, just busy.
Brandon (05:44)
Yeah,
yeah, yeah. so I'm actually kind of curious. I'll I'll be kind of curious in terms of questions for you, in terms of since then. yeah, like where have you come with some of, you know, your topics of interest and some of the ways that you were thinking about your work and where you find yourself now.
Dr. Nicole (06:04)
Yeah, yeah. Two goals to put a serious dent in rape culture and to invite the world to reflect on the reality that we all have multiple relationships.
Brandon (06:17)
Yep, already.
Dr. Nicole (06:19)
Yeah,
exactly. If I could die with a dent in rape culture and that I feel like I'd be in a good place, you know, in terms of what's feasible in a lifetime, you know, before I hand it off to the next generation to go even further, right?
Brandon (06:34)
For sure. I mean I and I would love I would love to touch on both of those too with the time we have today. Thoughts.
Dr. Nicole (06:38)
Totally, totally.
Yeah, yeah. I know, I know. Excited. So for the listener first, let's bring down the conversation into surrogate partner therapy. What is that? What does that even mean? I know many of my listeners are sex nerds and do know, but for the person who doesn't, what what is that?
Brandon (07:04)
Yeah. Surrogate partner therapy or SPT has been around for actually quite a while, about ha more than half a century, but it's been through many iterations and it it it kind of went underground for a couple of decades, but it's going through a revival right now, it's over the past decade. And essentially what it is is it's a it's a therapeutic modality. So it is therapy, wherein a client hires both a talk therapist, often a sex therapist.
But a psychotherapist or an intimacy coach of some kind. And a surrogate, which is me. And the surrogate is a trained professional who is a stand-in partner, hence surrogate, right? For a client who has been unable to navigate certain obstacles to physical and emotional intimacy with talk therapy alone, and has not been able to navigate them in the wild, right? They're sort of at an impasse, right? Or their barriers are so
you know, endemic or or entrenched that they really need the opportunity, this sort of unique liminal space that they can enter with another person who is not their therapist, who can stand in physically and and honestly emotionally in ways that clinically a lot of people can't and should not, right? For good ethical to provide them with an experiential opportunity for connection, for negotiation, for what does consent actually feel like.
Not sound like not what's not just the concept of what does it actually feel like to be in consensual dynamic with another person, wherein desire, limits, preferences, knows can all be conveyed, received in real time. And then what is it like to build that dynamic into a juicy sort of or organic rhythm with somebody so that maybe our nervous systems get a chance to re-experience connection for the first time in a new way?
Dr. Nicole (09:00)
So so essential because many of us don't have these skills.
Brandon (09:05)
Most of them weren't modeled to us in the beginning. Right. And and maybe we've had some adverse experiences that have also disrupted our ability to to develop them over time.
Dr. Nicole (09:16)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Many of my clients have worked with cuddleists too, right? I know you mentioned that. And just the the beauty of that work of learning to be able to communicate what you want for your body and what feels good to you. And to know that and communicate that is a skill.
Brandon (09:36)
Yes.
Dr. Nicole (09:37)
And so many of my clients who have done that sort of work have spoken to that of like, wow, okay, I've learned so much of how to actually verbalize this. And
There's so much benefit to that.
Brandon (09:48)
Yes. Yeah. One way I've described it too is it is it's a skill to remember something that maybe you've never known, but but that your body does know. But maybe we've missed the skill or there's been an obstruction or, you know, a trauma of some kind that has really interrupted that that facility, that coupling between your body's knowledge around what it wants and does not want and our ability to to notice it and communicate it and trust.
Dr. Nicole (10:14)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, it's a language, right? If we think about the language of pleasure in a pleasure shame filled society, right? Like you you really can't speak pleasure in our puritanical, you know, Christian world that we live in, and especially in the West here, right? So it's like, it's truly like learning a new language. If someone asked me to speak French today, I would
stutter at the thought, like I have no language for that. Right. And so many of us come up into this world, depending on your upbringing, like particularly like mine in that purity culture space where it's just like, I have no language. When someone asks me what is pleasurable in your body, I would just freeze. And it's it's like speaking a new language. We just don't even have the neuronal pathways to translate. But you're so right, the body does know. We do know, but it's that language, the verbalizing, the safety to verbalize.
Brandon (11:08)
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And so and that can that's a tall order for a lot of people for a lot of people to to you know to try and repair that on their own. And even in therapy, that's a tall order p for psychotherapists. And so you know, I it it it make to me it makes sense and you know, I I don't have any sort of I don't have any sort of like cultural anthropological, you know, background or evidence for this. But I the feeling that I have around this, and I think it's probably true.
is that human cultures throughout throughout time have always had a way of tr of holding this, probably in a more community-based, but they they probably have had roles or rituals or ways of moving through these types of trauma or obstructions in a way that we've kind of forgotten or trained ourselves out of. And so I don't really think of it as a brand new modern invention. I think of it as kind of re reconnecting with a human capacity and probably a cultural role that we used to have.
A lot of in a different context, but we have kind of forgotten. That's how I look at it.
Dr. Nicole (12:12)
Right. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That makes so much sense. And there's such a benefit to the professional structured boundaried space because when you're doing this sort of work, there's so many different variables that are at play. And so when we can isolate a couple so that we can work on that specifically, I'm thinking about the time that I first had a sexological body worker session, like
My immediate feeling when I was receiving pleasure in my body was to give back to that person. Right, exactly. And so I had to take that moment to be like, I paid this person. That is the mutuality of the relationship. And this is a structured boundary thing. So I can actually put that to the side. But it was really, really hard, which was a reflection of how hard it was for me to just receive pleasure in general without this sense of obligation. Right. So that variable, the professional boundary context.
illuminated that so much so that I would have never seen just doing that in my, you know, in the wild, as we said, you know, relationships, because there's just so many other bound so many other variables at play in that experience.
Brandon (13:22)
Totally. And and in the wild too, other people are also acting into those habituated, you know, s or compulsive like ways of relating. And so it's really hard to interrupt if you have multiple people at the same time kind of behaving into that. Really? Where where's the room? Where's the pause? Where's the room to even take notice? Right. And imagine a new possibility. It's really difficult.
Dr. Nicole (13:40)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And so the benefit of the work, then getting to like really slow down into each one of those parts and slowly build the skills with someone who's a professional in that to like hold you. Like that is literally their job. It's like I hold people in this exact space. And I know you spoke to being a therapist, a recovering therapist. Tell me a little bit about the arc from that space to what you're doing now and what spoke to you there.
Brandon (14:10)
Yeah. Well it's interesting because I I learned about SPT when I was in grad school. Interesting. So
Dr. Nicole (14:14)
That's so good.
Brandon (14:15)
good. Because because I took the elective, the non-mandatory but elective human sexuality course in my graduate program. Should be Because you had to choose to take it.
Dr. Nicole (14:24)
Should be mandatory.
Brandon (14:25)
And I had a really dope professor who who included a segment on sex work. And and in that sh sort of showcasing a continua of of sex work and and sort of the the the unique
confluence of sex work and psychotherapy that is SPT, which was a part of like the Masters in Johnson, their their research, right? Like a lot of modern sex therapy is is actually directly linked to original surrogate partner therapy, which was problematic at the time, but it really did create this unique modality and pave the way for for what we do now, which is which has evolved.
Dr. Nicole (15:01)
Mm.
Brandon (15:01)
But and with that, I want to make sure that I really asterisk how
Sex work has shaped sex therapy inherently. You cannot separate the labor and the insights and the expertise of sex workers, many of whom were erased from a lot of research, who helped shape what people benefit from now today in our extremely sex work hostile culture.
So I see sex workers of all kinds as my colleagues and my peers. We do we might we might do different things. We might work in some different contexts, but I absolutely see them as my as my peers and equals.
Dr. Nicole (15:39)
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And then there are also many therapists who are also sex workers and especially to help pay with student loans and the weight of everything. Like the amount of therapists I knew I know who are doing sex work in school or have continued.
Brandon (15:56)
Listen, every time I go to a conference, yes, every time I go to a conference and I do, you I'll do a talk or a pa or I'll table. I mean, I also do I also do sex work advocacy too for for clinicians to learn, you know, cultural humility around working with sex workers so they can fully affirmative care. And any time anytime I go to a conference, inevitably people will disclose to me who ha who who are or have done sex work, who are clinicians now or clinicians in training. So
You already know somebody who is or has done sex work. You who are listening right now. I guarantee it. I guarantee it somebody either in your family or your professional life or your friends, somebody has at one point in time done sex work or will choose to do it at some point in time. Some version of it. I promise you.
Dr. Nicole (16:37)
Mm-hmm. Exactly, exactly. And many by choice for just the pure love of how fun it can be. Cause I know that's the biggest like stigma, people really sticking point of like feeling like it's a forced thing. And there are many sex workers, many dominatrix on this show that have really loved the work. And I feel like that's like one of the biggest foreshadowings for people of paradigms of thinking about this work, of really thinking about the survival sex work is like the only.
sort of framework to even do this sort of stuff.
Brandon (17:10)
Yeah, absolutely. Which which, you know, it highlights why it's important. Once we pause for a second and really talk about it, then it gives us the chance to meaningfully talk about the difference between sex work that is done more out of choice versus sex work that is done more out of coercion versus like actually forced things, you know, and w which are the things that we should be talking about in terms of really strong advocacy around anti-trafficking and stuff like that. But a lot of that
A lot of that is gets used to sort of like sweep any sort of version of sex work into a bundle to eradicate it because of our sort of puritanical fear
Dr. Nicole (17:43)
Mm-hmm.
Brandon (17:44)
of women and queer folks in general, and then certainly of sexuality.
Dr. Nicole (17:48)
Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. So thank you for the work that you're doing.
Brandon (17:53)
yeah, I'm I'm I'm proud to do it.
Dr. Nicole (17:55)
Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so what sort of transformations are you seeing with your clients? Tell me a little bit about your work and what you've seen over the years now that you've been doing this for so long.
Brandon (18:10)
Yeah. Well, what what I'll say kind of going back to when I first learned about SBT in grad school is I kind of clocked it then. And originally I had the idea that I would be the I would work as the as the clinician in the triad. So the hallmark of SPT is the triadic model, right? Client, clinician, and surrogate. There's open channels of communication and each each party meets regularly. So I'll you know, I have my sessions with a client, then the client has their therapy sessions, then I meet with the th with the therapist to do check-in. And then periodically we'll have a we'll have a
A synchronous or in-person three-way meeting where we're meeting all together to talk about treatment planning, you know, to talk about goals, to check in with each other, make sure that make sure that we're also working well together. It's almost like a radar. It's
Dr. Nicole (18:51)
Yeah, totally. I hear you.
Brandon (18:53)
like a relational tune-up, you know, it's kind of like a radar. yeah. And so that's kind of the structure and the flow of it of how that operates. And originally I wanted to be the clinician because I so fascinated.
Dr. Nicole (19:04)
Mm.
Brandon (19:06)
And then I decided to go through the training, I became a therapist for
for about a decade and then I decided to do the training. I figured if I do the SPT training, I have nothing to lose. A, it's gonna make it I'll benefit as a person and in my own relationships. Right. B it'll make me a better clinician. Or C, maybe I'll decide to pivot.
Dr. Nicole (19:23)
Yeah.
Brandon (19:24)
And all three became true. But then ultimately I decided to really wholly pivot into somatic work. And now so I I've I've left the clinical world behind in terms of that being my role. Now I work, you know, primarily as a surrogate and as a as a cuddlist. So I'm in the somatic
Dr. Nicole (19:39)
Yeah.
Brandon (19:40)
but as a therapist, I noticed many times working with folks, and I and and I worked at a very s sexuality forward and affirmative practice, a sex work affirmative practice, queer and non-monogamy practice, and and I was really proud to do that. And the number of times I kept realizing how many clients of mine
the limit we kept running into between what we could actually move through together, and yet they weren't able to find a linkage out in the wild, an opportunity out in the wild. The stakes were too high, right? Or they needed something interstitial, something that could really be this like bumpers or kind of training wheel container. And so I realized that that there needed to be something more. There needed to be another option that was experiential, but still within a a highly structured container.
Dr. Nicole (20:29)
Right.
Brandon (20:29)
So then I decided to do training and here we are now.
Dr. Nicole (20:32)
Yeah, because it's it's really creating that space again to eliminate some of the variables so that you can skill build.
Brandon (20:38)
Yes.
Dr. Nicole (20:41)
The listeners can't see, but I'm throwing up my hands and shaking my head as if why? Why do we have so much fear or context around this? And we know why the society that we live in, the puritanical system, the shame around sex work, all this is here. And also this is a space where you're building skills just quite literally, right? In a therapeutic context, we're building emotional language skills and processing skills and grounding skills, yada yada, yada. Like it makes sense for the embodied somatic skills to also have their place.
And then, like you're saying, to do it in this triad structure, it's very similar to the psychedelic work that I do. You know, I work with a psychiatrist. I'm not prescribing the medication. I don't know what dose is appropriate for that body size, right? This is something where we really benefit in terms of having a team and people that we work with. And I'm teaching a workshop called Queering Psedelics that's coming up. And we were kind of talking about one of the ways that psychedelic therapy, when done correctly, is it really queering of the system in terms of
You know, so many medical model moments you come in, and as the doctor, you're like, well, this is what's happening today, and this is what we're doing, and here's your treatment, right? Versus I imagine your work and my work with psychedelics being much more, hey, client, what are you needing today? Do you want to go up in dose? Do you want to go down in dose? And and I'm sure in your work too, do you want to try this or do you not want to try this? Right. Like it's a very querying of the medical model to step into a client-centered
Client leading container rather than the medical provider that comes in and says, Hey, I have all the wisdom and I'm gonna tell you exactly what to do with your body and your life right now.
Brandon (22:15)
Yes. And SBT itself has gone through that transformation.
Dr. Nicole (22:19)
Mm really. It's a field.
Brandon (22:20)
It very much began, you know, first of all, I think I think the I think the the length of treatment was two weeks max.
Dr. Nicole (22:28)
Mm. Whoa, yeah, that's really quick.
Brandon (22:30)
It's really w super fat. I can't imagine. Yeah. Unless it's an intense, which is which is a a special case. But it was cisgender women surrogates who working with cisgender white men.
Around erectile dysfunction.
Dr. Nicole (22:46)
Mm.
Brandon (22:47)
And and so there was a very specific goal. Right. There was a very specific purpose and there was and there was a trajectory to that. So now that's not that's not our goal. Like we the profession has queered itself and continues to do so. and it's making efforts right now, some really, I think, incredible like decolonial efforts into in terms of how we how we formulate our thinking around it.
And our approaches to it as well that make it more responsive. And now it's like that. Like I don't have a prescription. I have a bag of I have a bag of tools and some and training that helps me navigate certain obstacles and have a sense of what options are available at a given moment. And also to know myself well enough to be able to communicate what my limits and desires might be on a given day. And just that alone being able to model that is already huge. There's no I tell people it's not a it's not a ride.
You don't get on and I take you through all the stops and checkpoints till you reach you know go. That's not how this works. We're we're gonna be discovering this in real time.
Dr. Nicole (23:49)
Totally. And I remember that that's coming to mind from our recording many years ago, you know, the you know, the relationship escalator of the, you know, going up a very unconsciously from, you know, dating to marriage and dying together. I always talk about the intimacy escalator in a very similar way in terms of, you know, attraction, maybe hand holding, oral sex or we you know, quite literally the joke is rounding the bases, right? Like
Straight up, like it's this very linear. I know. Brandon is shaking his head. Like just and so like I'm always trying to deconstruct that in my group programs too of just like, hey, if we're gonna queer this thing, we can just get off the escalator and go in so many different creative ways of being and connecting. And so, right, as the facilitator of this, for you to hold that, I'm sure that is even just teaching people so many skills. Like,
Intimacy and connection and sexuality doesn't have to look like penetration and orgasm at the peak of the experience. Like that alone is like life-changing wisdom to be imparting to people.
Brandon (24:59)
Yes, yes. My mentor, Andrew Hartman, who is a a a veteran surrogate, he put it he put it a particular way that I really like it. And this would be sort of this would be my sort of like elevator tagline for SPT, which is that surrogate partner therapy guides clients in co creating a context where mutually enjoyable intimacy can arise naturally.
Dr. Nicole (25:21)
Mm. Mm.
Brandon (25:24)
That's what it does. Learn to create a context in which mutually enjoyable intimacy can arise naturally. Period. What that looks like and what we get up to, we will discover together.
Dr. Nicole (25:35)
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And if that makes someone tighten in their chest of, God, well, what would that look like? It's like, well, you're probably actually the ideal client for that. Like straight up if you're like, actually, I don't know how I would communicate what I'd want for desir like those are the people. Like that's the person, right? Who'd be like, Okay, actually this could be the container where you learn how to communicate your desires and to receive a no, like you said, your own boundaries of, hey, no, this is where I'm at today and to hold that.
and be okay with that. Thou those are the skills we're really hitting on here.
Brandon (26:10)
Absolutely. And I and honestly, I wish I would have had this.
Dr. Nicole (26:12)
Yeah.
Brandon (26:13)
I would have had this in my a long time ago in my life, you know? And it it I I I like to at least imagine it it might have saved me. I don't regret any of the lessons I had to learn, but it probably would have saved me from some things if would have had access to a to a trustworthy container with a trained professional who
Dr. Nicole (26:31)
Totally.
Brandon (26:32)
could hold that space for me to even learn what choice and voice actually looked and felt like to me.
Dr. Nicole (26:38)
Mm, mm-hmm.
Brandon (26:38)
And to descript it from from what it was supposed to look like or what, you know, of like living into any sort of like virility cues or like, you know, you know, gendered
Dr. Nicole (26:48)
Right.
Brandon (26:50)
But to really create a space for me to discover myself as an erotic being.
Dr. Nicole (26:53)
To emerge.
Totally. Yeah, because I know my younger self would like, God, do we have to have sex immediately? But like notice how that that's where we say, Wow, what good clinical data that the first thought of stepping into this container is I have to go all the way to the top. It's like girly, we got a lot to deconstruct.
Brandon (27:15)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's right.
Dr. Nicole (27:17)
That's funny. The answer is no, folks, absolutely not.
Brandon (27:20)
answer
is no. And look and and and with that, the nose are really important because sometimes people come into this work too, having having a very specific vision of what if I am cured or normal or whatever, i I will be able to do this or it will look like this. And therefore this specific activity must happen in the course of treatment in order for me to have recovered. That is not how this works.
Dr. Nicole (27:46)
Totally.
Brandon (27:47)
It's also not really true that checking the box.
actually makes you feel healed and empowered. It's how we it's every it's everything that we've learned to do to even get there. It's how we've arrived at at s at an activity, an interaction that now feels possible. That's what matters.
Dr. Nicole (28:05)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the psychedelic work, we say that the psychedelic trip starts the moment you say yes to the container. Right.
Brandon (28:14)
Mm, yes. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Nicole (28:15)
Not the moment the medicine comes in. It's the moment you say yes, because now you're like, okay, I'm doing this thing. I am prepping for this thing. I'm gonna do this thing. And that's actually the journey of all of it, right? Is the container building the fact that you're thinking about it for weeks and preparing and all that sort of stuff.
Do you ever work with pelvic floor therapists as like a four person team? I could see that four per yeah, exactly. I was like four people in that would be really powerful.
Brandon (28:41)
Yeah, it's I have to say it's not it it's not often that turns into a formal quad where we're all talking to each other. So usually what'll happen is that the is that you know the the PT might communicate through the clients or maybe the therapist will communicate directly with the PT. It's rare that I talk to that I would talk to another medical I have done it. but I have yeah, I have two cases right now where there's also the PT that's you know, PT work that's being involved that's being brought in at the same time because now we're working in tandem with with those two types of things, right?
And so important. And and I love that. I love being able to to be a collaborative element that is like comprehensive.
Dr. Nicole (29:19)
Yeah.
Brandon (29:20)
It's pretty incredible. Because
Dr. Nicole (29:21)
Mm-hmm.
Brandon (29:22)
then we get to because then also I think for the client, what it gets to highlight is okay, the stuff that that they're that they're experiencing in PT, absolutely critical. Now what happens if if they take that and then apply it in a context where there is attunement, feelings of safety.
Relaxation, desire, and arousal. Now how now how do these things work? How did these things feel?
Dr. Nicole (29:47)
Totally. Absolutely. Cause for the listener who doesn't know the pelvic floor therapy has a really clear boundary of not stepping into arousal or desire or anything that could mimic that. There is internal work done, but it's very like I don't want to say sterile in a bad way, but intentionally kind of sterile of like, here's this muscle and we're gonna loosen this and here's this and that's what's happening. it was really profound when I went through it myself to like really just that's what that muscle feels like. I had never
spent time like this is what this side feels like. This is what this you know, any time I'd ever done anything in my own body, it was in an erotic sense, not like a purely building neuronal pathways to understand what muscles feel like when they're tight and when they're looser, like pfft, mind-boggling, right? So yeah, now to then bring that into a space where desire is possible and you want to communicate, like, hey, I actually need a little bit slower here in terms of this penetration because actually I'm noticing this is a little tight.
Could we actually do some perineedal massage right now? Could we actually do a little bit of massage there before I get more penetration? Like those language skills and capacity in a space where desire is present. That's huge. Cause for the person who like again feels like they need to perform, feels like they need to get to penetration and orgasm. I know past versions of myself would just completely negate any of the pain that was present and just try to push through that, right? So to have a space where you could practice actually, hey, pause, wait.
I need this. And maybe don't ever go to the other part. Or we do, or whatever. But just the freedom of choice that happens when you build these skills is life changing.
Brandon (31:25)
Yes. Yes. And also what it's like to take the the really important information, the body knowledge that can come with PT, right? Now what's it like to allow your partner, your lover to be a witness to that in the moment of you inter interfacing with your body in a way that you know helps you connect to it? What's it then even like further when you take your lover's hand and to participate?
And that and that thing you learned in PT.
Dr. Nicole (31:57)
Yeah, there was a moment I with my partner, I was thinking to myself, I was like, God, like I it the the the judgment of society is like, I I need this help. Like I have to you know, the hot moment where it just is great and you're totally ready to go into it, my brain was like
I need this help. I need him to slow down with me. I need to go through this practice. God, you know, because we're Polly and it's great and I love it. I was like, he's gonna get an NRE with somebody else who's just wet and juicy like I was at the beginning of our relationship and it's just exactly your face. I know. And I and it was a moment and I just told him very directly, I was like, I know this is not logical, but like the system's view of what is hot. But the reality in a long-term relationship, the same you habituate, you don't have as much like
arousal, it's harder to build arousal in a long-term relationship. I fucking love this human. There is no doubt in my mind, but my body has habituated. It's a different reaction than when we were first in NRE. And so, yeah, that that moment of me being like, God, he's gonna find somebody and it's gonna be hot and easy. And I'm over here, like, will you massage my like my body before we penetrate? Right. But that I think there's also a really beautiful intimacy in that. Those are the moments where you start to like.
Take off some of the masks, right? And you get to be much more human with who like what your body actually is, and not this performative perfection moment where someone's like farting in the bathroom because God forbid you like cross over to a human moment of your body and intimacy, right? Like there's just a real beauty to that, I think, truly, when you feel that safe with your partner to actually get into that. But that's not to say all those internal messages aren't gonna be really loud at first.
Brandon (33:35)
But what I love about that is that you could is that they were speakable. They
Dr. Nicole (33:38)
Yeah.
Brandon (33:39)
were speakable in the relationship. What a game changer, you know? There was room for that. That makes a huge difference.
Dr. Nicole (33:46)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's why it comes so hard, right? That's like that's the connection.
Brandon (33:51)
Yes. yes. That's right. It's the emotional listen, y'all, the pheromones don't hit forever. They don't. They're a hell of they're a hell of a drug. They're a hell of a drug. They make you crazy and it's really fun. Yeah. And you will and you are gonna be wild. But there's also the type of the type of or orgasmic ecstasy and connection that comes from that deep like this human knows me, has seen me at my worst, my ugly.
Dr. Nicole (34:18)
Yep.
Brandon (34:19)
And we are so connected and there's that kind of surrender too. There's that kind of money go to. And it's all beautiful, right?
Dr. Nicole (34:25)
Mm-hmm. So
Brandon (34:27)
Yeah, it all goes together.
Dr. Nicole (34:28)
yeah, absolutely. Which reminds me a lot of my psychedelic work because we we know that when we're working with those medicines, if you are really bracing and really trying to protect yourself from the experience and feeling unsafe in the environment, sometimes if someone's wanting to go into trauma work maybe too early, then the container has built in terms of intimacy.
I've had clients who have gotten doses and then literally been like, I didn't feel anything. And I remember going through my training, like with my nurse practitioner, I was like, hey, like, did we give the drug? And he's like, uh-huh. This actually happens, Nicole. Like, if you're really there's obviously a dose at like such a high dose that it's used for, you know, anesthesiology and it will knock you out, of course. Like, don't get me wrong here. Okay. But like when we're working with it therapeutically, which is much more manageable dose, something where we're trying to build that safety, there is a level of
protection that you can step into that kind of prevents you from even feeling the experience because you're so defended and you're so guarded. Right. So when you have that safe container in a therapeutic relationship with the psychedelics, you're able to surrender, let go, and actually trip that much harder. It's the same with your orgasm, right? Like you are able to go to transcendent spaces of ecstasy. When you feel that safety to name, hey, I need this to be massaged before I have any penetration.
Because your cock is rather large and this is what I need for my body.
Brandon (35:54)
Yes. Yes. The same I would say the same is true here because 'cause sometimes even the body is so incredible with how powerful it is at at times. There can be that that level of defense, especially if it's had decades. Yes. To to really like you know batten down the hatches that even a even in a moment of the person's conscious will and and active desire to experience something, they will have muted sensation.
Dr. Nicole (36:21)
Well
Brandon (36:22)
You know, I I'm
Different parts of their body. They're like, I can't feel, I can't feel anything. Even though we're it's fully consensual, you know, what we're experiencing is like totally built, we worked up to that. And that's bewildering to them.
Dr. Nicole (36:34)
Mm.
Brandon (36:35)
Our you know, our nervous systems are not everything works in the same timeline. So there's a kind of humility that comes with this too. That just because you decide that you're ready, which is great, right? And that you choose to to explore some of these things, that's that's wonderful, that's powerful. And also.
Your body might be on a different timeline than you, which is why I I tell people it's it's not just a matter of like constant breakthroughs and then and and one rung after the other, right? And you go in kind of linear fashion. It doesn't really work that way. It's kind of like it's more like spiral work of like you go get a little bit further, but then you're gonna have to come back and get with those other parts of you that need more time and attention. And then you come forward and you go a little bit further and you come back and revisit some of those like those flares, right? Or those limits, right?
So it it kind of works like that because it's conditioning. It's it is conditioning work. And conditioning happens through repetition. Right. Right. There can be breakthroughs, but you were everything that you have, all those protections, all those defenses, were conditioned over and over and over and over again. So we need to have the same kind of appreciation for the nervous system and humility to realize you gotta slow down, you gotta be patient with it. Just because you decide you're ready you are ready for something doesn't mean that your body knows that it's safe to do so or that it's ready to do so.
Dr. Nicole (37:50)
I know, I know. And do you know how frustrating that is?
Brandon (37:52)
Incredibly frustrating. incredibly frustrating.
Dr. Nicole (37:56)
yeah, 'cause we want to have control over everything. You know, it's like I want it to move right now. I want this right now.
Brandon (38:03)
I I talk to men about this a a lot around around ED. That makes sense. I think that's true. You know, I I think there's a number of reasons. Why why are the rates of reported ED and the and the prescription of ED meds, consumption of ED meds between you know, AIDMAB people between the ages of 20 and 40, why are they so high right now? Why are they higher than they've ever been right now? Well, there might be a couple of reasons. The reason I'll speak to is I think that the
Part I would say it's ecological anxiety and like the inundation of stress that's always living in our bodies all the time because that's the world we're living in now. And the and the abund overabundance of distractions and the constant pull of our attention everywhere. And also because dudes don't know how to relax and actually pay attention to their body and and be connected to their body and really connected to another person's body in a in in a tuned sensual way, that there is this, there's this.
crazy dissonance between like not being in one's body and then being trying to be super into your cock.
Dr. Nicole (39:01)
Yeah, exactly.
Brandon (39:04)
And your nervous system is like, yeah.
Dr. Nicole (39:06)
So yeah.
Brandon (39:09)
What what are what are we doing here? Yeah. And
Dr. Nicole (39:11)
Exactly. Exactly.
Brandon (39:12)
then and then but they're wood bewildered by it in the moment. Right. And then they feel ashamed of it.
Dr. Nicole (39:17)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. If you spend all day in your mind and this then just expect that you can just go into your bedroom, your dungeon, wherever you play, and just assume that you can flip the switch and have your brain go into this other area of the body called the somatics. You know, like, you know, and actually feel all of that. That no, like all day long, you've been running on the treadmill. You're gonna get off and it's gonna feel weird. You're not, you know, run, you know, it's just like
We have to spend more time in our body. And you're so right to be tapping into the the systems and the stress that that creates because our bodies are really wise. They feel what is going on in the world right now. And again, our bodies are not trying to fight us at all. They're always trying to keep us safe. That's like the biggest, you know, as much as those moments where I get frustrated with my body where I'm like, Why won't it do what I want it to do? It's like, well, it's trying to keep you safe. You've been dealing with XYZ stressors. You've been dealing with this. And so it's saying, Hey,'s now
Now not the time, right? And so that there is wisdom there. And so it's like, how can we come to our bodies with more compassion and more love for the wisdom that it has, even if it's no longer appropriate, right? I think that coming in with that view of compassion and and really pulling it in for like a warmer hug rather than the my body, ugh that, like that's gonna actually push it even further away.
Brandon (40:38)
Yes. And I think it it it begs the question too of like this how do we break down an erotic experience into the question of well, what do we want to do? And that's already loaded. That's great. You could you can have a lot of fun with breaking down what do want to do. What I like to ask is, and in both my personal and in my professional life, is how do you want to feel?
Dr. Nicole (40:58)
Mm.
Brandon (40:59)
How do you want to feel in this encounter? Yeah. Because that actually that actually tells us a lot more than anything that we might do. It'll be a guidepost for what we might do.
But also if if we're trying things that aren't and things go awry or they're not they're not doing what we would like them to do, how can we get back to, okay, well, we want to feel this way, so what are still our options then? Right. So a lot of pressure out off of how it's supposed to look or how you even maybe would have wished it would have looked, how can we stay connected to how we want to feel in this dynamic?
Dr. Nicole (41:30)
Totally. Totally. Absolutely. That was literally last week I was teaching, playing beyond the scripts and getting into our kinky parts and creating scenes. And that is exactly where I start. The first question is what do we want to feel? Both as a top and as a bottom, because both of those are important. And then I had this like big chart of all of these feelings to just like 'cause sometimes it's like, well, I don't know. I don't know what I want to feel. But at least like having like a chart of all these different options that you could say,
I want a little bit of this, I want a little bit of that and this. And now that you have the feelings that you want to hit, now, okay, what are the tools, the types of play, the practices we have have at hand to create those feelings?
Brandon (42:14)
Yes. Yes.
Dr. Nicole (42:19)
The world will be a better place when we have these skills, right? And that's part of what you spoke to at the beginning before we even started, right? Of like how important this work is to also translate into the systems that we're in and it really being connected to our ability to communicate our bodies more generally. I mean, I'm sure you see this. This is truly one of the most passionate parts of my work is that when people come to me saying, I want to expand in my sex life, I want to expand in my relationships.
It doesn't just stay there, it ripples out into every area of their life.
I love it so much. I love it so much.
Brandon (43:01)
Yes, yes. Notwithstanding that people who are attuned to their own bodies and feel liberated erotically and have access to that fluency and that power probably aren't keen on making war. You know?
probably aren't keen on destroying things and clinging and clinging to like hoarded power or control. Probably not. I'm not saying it's perfect, but I'm saying that that also just people who are unashamed of their own sexuality, who are unashamed of their own desires, know the difference between fantasy and desire, who have a relationship with their shadow, that is a proactive relationship with their shadow, are probably less likely to actually do awful shit in the world.
Dr. Nicole (43:53)
Well, we see that. We see that. Like we see the more repressed a society is, the more there is these unhealthy ways that that energy gets translated. We we see that, especially within some of the like fundamentalist Christian communities and these very problematic things that come out. Like the more tightly you restrict this energy and keep it in the shadow, the more it comes out as shadow.
Brandon (44:19)
Yes. Yes. And and and therefore creates creates the very like conditions for exploitation and and harm, right, that everybody claims to be so afraid of and and trying to be to protect, you know, the world from. But it creates it creates the very conditions. A fear of sexuality and a fear of our bodies creates the very conditions that that propagate things like harm and exploitation.
Dr. Nicole (44:49)
Right. Same with the drug space too, right? Right. Exactly. Drugs are so bad. And then that's where we get overdoses. People don't have education. We don't have awareness. We don't have any sort of integration around these things. So it comes out in these shadow, problematic, dangerous, outright dangerous ways, right? And so and I think that when you are really stepping into your slut hood.
There's a reverence that you hold for the people that you play with. Like I ideally, right? Like when you're really into consent frameworks, part of the consent framework is this is a beautiful, sovereign, independent being that has a whole universe that is just as important in that head as much as mine. And so how can we come together to create this in a way that feels aligned for both of us? Like,
I think that's where you're saying, like, doesn't create war and all these other things. I think that level of consent and sovereignty for the other people that you play with, yeah, that's fucking revolutionary. That is not how the world looks at in terms of like, let me hoard power here and control these people here. Like, yeah, if we take a consent framework to what's going on in the world,
Brandon (45:56)
Yes.
Dr. Nicole (45:56)
it is not passing. It is not passing. It's not passing. Any way, shape, or form. Exactly.
Brandon (46:01)
Yeah, it's a big old fail, y'all. Yeah.
Yeah, right. And it just makes us more the like the them also the more that we cling and and the smaller the smaller the pool we make of who's good and who's not good, who's in and who's out, the more paranoid we become too. And then the more we turn we're likely to turn on each other, right? It gets smaller and smaller and more paranoid and crazier over time. It's d it's do it dooms itself to a life of fear and control. Then the tighter we try to c control and cling
the the stronger the sense of like purity becomes yeah which then like metastasizes yeah it's it and we and we literally become insane, right? We've done it, human beings, we have a we have a propensity for that. Like that is a capacity that we've had. It's been demonstrated over and over again through human society, right? So so that is a part of our collective like human capacity, a dark dark element that we have, right?
Dr. Nicole (46:51)
Mm.
Brandon (46:52)
The the pull of that is that we also have the incredible capacity to experience sovereignty
in relationship, right? To be whole and sovereign but in connection at the same time. And that's when I think we're at our most powerful.
Dr. Nicole (47:09)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's why whenever people would ask that like million dollar question of the are human beings good or evil? Are we good or evil? It's like, Well, what's the context? Is H2O water? Is it ice? Is it steam? It's like, well, it's I mean it's all possible. It depends on the temperature of the and the pressure of the container. You know, you know, so it's like, yeah, human beings have the propensity for all of it. well, what's the temperature and our pressure, right? And so
As things get hotter, you know, that we can continue the metaphor. But yeah, that's why I'm so passionate about this work in terms of knowing the the ripples that it has, because I know some people are like, ooh, sex, hot, raunchy, and all this. And it's like, no, this is like deeply political work around boundaries and our ability to communicate. And like you said, yes, we are so much stronger together. So many of these systems that we live under, quite literally, are huge and it feels
insurmountable. We go into those trauma responses, you know, in terms of the fight, flight, freeze, fawn. And it just feels like, fuck, what can I do to any of this? Right. And and also like we have to remember that the tangible of the people in our communities and how we show up for them, that ripples. And the more that we can band together rather than othering, which is not an easy process, let's be clear of what like transformative justice looks like, because community buildings
difficult and beautiful all at the same time. my God. But like
Brandon (48:38)
Yeah.
Dr. Nicole (48:40)
that's what makes us all revolutionary. And like consent has to be at the forefront of all of that sort of work.
Brandon (48:47)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And and consent doesn't mean that we're we're comfortable all the time. In fact, I don't think you really get consent unless you're choosing to get really uncomfortable sometimes and also and also tolerate or witness someone else's profound discomfort. So consent doesn't mean everything feels real smooth and easy all the time. In fact, you don't really get there. You can't really be trustworthy unless you're willing to face your own discomfort and name it and hold someone else's, right? In order to really emerge into the space and navigate.
Your questions.
Dr. Nicole (49:18)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm thinking about white fragility in that and and other sorts of systems. I'm curious, could you provide an example of the discomfort of consent for the listener?
Brandon (49:29)
yeah. I mean a part of a huge part of that is for people for people who are conditioned people pleasers,
Dr. Nicole (49:37)
Mm.
Brandon (49:38)
even if they are coming to this work because they want a chance at a at a new possible way of relating and getting what they want, the level of discomfort and even agitation, re even resenting me for putting for asking them what they might want and them ha being in a position where they have to to know what they want.
And then name it out loud, the vulnerability of that. All of the voices that say that they that they're unworthy of wanting or they shouldn't want or their wants are inconvenient or their wants are disgusting or whatever it is, right? They have to all of that cacophony of things rises up into them in a single moment and they're mad at me for putting them in a position where they're now uncomfortable with their own want. That's a moment where they're really uncomfortable, right? A lot of times clients will come to this work even though they have goals around things that they want.
Right. That are around their desire. And they will try to they'll try to get me to lead the way. They'll try to always turn turn it back to me about what do I want or what do I think should happen. Right. What should we do here? What do you think is best. And it's like, ha ha Nope. We're not doing that. We're not doing that. We're gonna sit right here in that ambivalence together. Here's what I can offer you. I can't tell you what you should do. I won't tell you what you should do. I don't know what you want. Right. But but what I do know.
Is that you probably probably never had the chance to be ambivalent out loud with somebody and have them not reject you or berate you or criticize you or tell you that's really annoying and or or that or that figure it out on your own and then come back to me. I'm gonna sit here and be with you and your ambivalence. And maybe we can maybe we can dig into that together. Let's get to know that ambivalence. Maybe that's where we start.
Dr. Nicole (51:24)
Yeah, but they're probably like, Ugh, I don't like that
Brandon (51:27)
Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, what did you think was gonna happen?
And I and I think I th I think some clients really do think like I thought you were gonna strap me in, give me the skill, keeps your keep your keep your legs and feet inside the vehicle at all times, put down the bar, right? That's what consent is, right? It's a roller coaster lap bar. Really, totally and you were gonna take me on a ride, and I was just I was just gonna come into all the things. They were just gonna happen and I wasn't gonna be uncomfortable. Listen, if you find somebody who can do that, hire them.
Dr. Nicole (52:02)
But then it's only gonna take you so far though.
Brandon (52:05)
Can
take you so far. Look, that look, that's great. Like I you know, I I have I have friends who are like professionals, right? Prodoms and stuff like that. And they and they will take you on a ride.
Dr. Nicole (52:14)
That's a good yes, that's a great example.
Brandon (52:16)
But even that, they still have negotiations you have to
Dr. Nicole (52:19)
Totally.
Brandon (52:20)
you know, and and any professional worth their salt is still gonna have a mandatory consent talk ahead of time. But then after that, they'll take you on a ride.
Dr. Nicole (52:27)
Right, exactly. Yeah, the sub who doesn't know any boundaries and where they're no at is one of the most dangerous you know, you have to, you have to, right? Any sort of player who's gonna do this safely, ethically, has to have that conversation.
Brandon (52:41)
That's a hard limit for me. Totally, of course. I you know, I like to push boundaries or I don't have limits. That's gonna be a hard no for me.
Dr. Nicole (52:48)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Learned vetting processes throughout the years, right?
Brandon (52:55)
Uh-huh.
Dr. Nicole (52:55)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so many clients come into the therapeutic space wanting that same sort of thing. Like, well, can you just solve this?
Brandon (53:07)
Totally. You're the expert.
Dr. Nicole (53:09)
Right. Right. Right. Right. Exactly. But not the expert on your life. That's always what I start out with for a session. I'm like, you are the expert on your life. Call me in, correct me, challenge me, right? Especially with the power dynamic. Like, please, like, you are the expert on your life, right? And it and it doesn't help to come into a space where you're told exactly what to do, because then the rest of your week, when you get out of that session, what are you
that pattern might continue into partners or to other people, parents even, right? Like we want to get out of that so that you can be embodied in your own desire to communicate what you want. Right. So like as the facilitator and the spaceholder, that's not helping our clients to give in to that behavior. It's just enabling something that, you know, is not healthy and not it's like a crutch in a moment that like is not going to help heal actually in reality.
Brandon (54:00)
Yes. Yes. Sometimes what I will do though if somebody comes and they're really leaning hard into that and they they they really want me to take them on that ride and like have this experience. I'll le I'll lean into it and I'll say, okay, great. So so so tell tell me how you imagine this is gonna happen. Yeah. Okay, great. I'm just gonna do these things. What kind of things do you imagine I would do?
Dr. Nicole (54:19)
Mm-hmm.
Brandon (54:20)
Right? Okay, great. How do you how do you imagine we might get there? Okay, so if I'm doing these things, right, let' let's say let's say
This is how this g is gonna work. How would I know when you're enjoying something? And how would I know when you're uncomfortable? How would I notice that? Right? Because I I can't read your mind. That's one that's that's one skill I don't have. So
Dr. Nicole (54:41)
Yeah.
Brandon (54:42)
what are the things like let's say we're doing all this, right? Okay, tell that tell me the things you're imagining. Great. How would we get there? And then how would I know along the way that that's working?
Dr. Nicole (54:51)
Right.
Brandon (54:51)
And that that's what you want. And if we needed to change, what if you were done with something?
Right? Or it didn't feel the way you thought it was gonna feel. How would I know that without guessing? So I'll kinda lean into the image and then
Dr. Nicole (55:02)
And then just pull them back.
Brandon (55:04)
Yeah
yeah. And then and they're like Yeah, all right, I see what you're doing here.
Dr. Nicole (55:09)
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. See, I see that reverse Uno card you just played on me. Okay, got it, got it. But that's so good. And then that's that's really the wisdom that they take away from out of that now is like next time they're with a lover and maybe they didn't have that cue for themselves of when they step into that self-negating, people pleasing part. right, I talked to Brandon about this. This is actually my cue. I'm hitting, this is the time I'm supposed to say, hey, stop.
Let's pause, we're done for today. Right. Like that is the skill building, even in the discomfort of fuck, I actually don't, I don't know what that is. And I've seen that even in my groups, right? Cause when we were talking about the same creation, I asked some of those questions too of like, what is your signs in your body that you're hitting a limit, especially when we're getting to more intense edge play and limit consent and stuff like that? We need to know for ourselves, like.
This is the sign I'm hitting my edge. And some people kind of like froze in that moment of like, I don't really know. And and like tears were coming, right? And just like that's a tough place to be in. But I'm so glad that you're in that space right here, right now, in this safe sort of therapeutic container where we can actually process that and get into that because that's the foundation, the skill building, so that you can explore some of those really edge of your mind and capacity and body things in a way that has the container for it to hold you.
in that flight of wherever you go.
Brandon (56:35)
Yes. And and expanding options between those shutdowns, between between
Dr. Nicole (56:40)
Yeah, totally.
Brandon (56:42)
fight. Right. So one way that I would do that is is working with yellow. Yeah, exactly. I'll I'll use traffic all these traffic lights, right? As as sure safeties, right? We always have a couple of different nonverbal and verbal safeties when you know, when we're working. And presenting people with the question of when we hit yellow, and for the for listeners, to me when I say w we always we always agree on what the colors mean. So I'm not working
Different meaning than the client might mean, right? Right. You always want to define your terms. Always define your, even if it's something you use with other people, always define it with the current partner you're with. So yellow usually means just sort of we're might be approaching a limit, right? It doesn't mean stop. Red means stop and check in. Everything stops and we check in. Yellow usually means slow down or or or pause, right? Or no more, right? No more than what you're doing right now. Just be aware, right? So kind of slow down or a little ease off.
And what'll happen is somebody yellows, and I'll do this too, right? When when when I'm being touched, is I like being asked, what do I want to do with that yellow?
Dr. Nicole (57:41)
Right.
Brandon (57:42)
You know why? Because when we get curious, when we stay curious and stay with it, and there's not urgency, you don't feel somebody jump back out of like, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, right? And out of anxiety, nor are they just like, you're fine, you know, and like point, right? Neither, but are but are just like, okay, I hear you. What do you want to do with that?
now I have even more choices than before. Maybe what I want is I just need a moment for you to stay with what you're doing so you don't go up or or down. You don't need to ramp it up or down. Stay with it. maybe that yellow is actually becoming green. And my body just needed a moment. I just needed a moment with you doing what you were doing, staying before. And now I feel the downshift. now that's a green. I'm good. Right. Or maybe you stay with it and I'm like, yeah, it's actually turning a little orange right now. Okay, so yeah, let's actually ease off. Let's actually ease off a little bit.
But I've created the space now to know that. No urgency, just presence and curiosity, right? Or maybe the thing that I needed was to was to do some handwriting. Maybe I just need to place my hand over your hand. Now I'm also connected to my body through your touch. And now that yellow, I feel I feel a little bit more, I have a little bit more sphere of influence, right? Over the touch. So now maybe I'm guiding you. Now that shifts into a green because I feel like I have a little bit more direct control over what's happening.
Now I can take my hand away because it's like, we got there together. You know?
Dr. Nicole (59:02)
Mm.
Totally. Yeah. Range.
Brandon (59:04)
It it expands
it expands a moment of possibility. And that's really intimate.
Dr. Nicole (59:12)
Right? absolutely. Cause we're crossing into the unknown of language and capacity and embodied wisdom. I mean, again, if we think about it simpli this is not just therapy, but if we think about therapy simply as expanding the language that you have to name your emotions, and it is so much more than that. But if we think about that, right, like that's what you're doing here is you're expanding you know, I think about the emotion wheel, like you're expanding the embodiment wheel of like
different things of how to respond to that moment of what's coming up with in your body. And those are like truly some of the richest skills, right? Because again, it translates into so many different areas of your life. The erotic is really just a mirror for all the other areas of what does this feel like in my body? Does it feel aligned? And what am I wanting? How do I attune to the people around me?
Brandon (1:00:02)
Yes. Yes. That's right. And it will change it will change your experience of time. It will change your experience of capacity. So like it's about expanding the window of capacity to your to what you actually are capable of.
Dr. Nicole (1:00:17)
Mm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Brandon (1:00:19)
Because there's less pressure for our our red button defenses to come into play at the first sign of trouble. We don't have to do that anymore, especially if we've worked together to develop reliable, trustworthy consent practices. You know that we can give and receive no. You know that when that happens, nobody's gonna be punished and also what's gonna stop what needs to stop is gonna stop. Right.
Dr. Nicole (1:00:40)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of people who have never received a thank you from a no in terms of just like, hey, no, that's not for me. Thank you for letting me know. And I know the first time I received that in a sexual context, it was shattering. I was like, whoa. Cause you know.
If we think about it in terms of the relational paradox and the possibility of losing connection in the past when I would say that I would, you know, no longer be performing the role of a good woman, no longer performing the role of a good partner. Maybe that person pressured me. please, come on, what about this? Right? Like all these things that made it really complicated. So the first time I got a thank you in response to a no, it was bringing me into connection. My boundaries brought me into closer connection.
Brandon (1:01:31)
Yes.
Dr. Nicole (1:01:33)
shit. Like just like my God, you know, it's like a whole different being on the other side, you know.
Brandon (1:01:39)
Yeah, that's right. That's right. For a lot of folks too, it's you know to be told no immediately means you're bad.
Dr. Nicole (1:01:50)
Right.
Brandon (1:01:51)
It means not even that you've just done something bad, but that you are you have a reason to be ashamed. And that the thing that you wanted you ought not have wanted. It was a mistake, the thing that you did was real was stupid or erroneous. You know what I mean? Was like that you are bad. If you get a no, you've done something terrible.
And you you are bad so quick that's a it happens in an instant, right? And that shame just comes crashing in. So what happens when we slow all that down and realize that, man, this person just told me no. What does that actually mean? It means that that particular interaction wasn't working in this moment. And maybe we'll learn more. Maybe it's context, maybe it's maybe it's how I did it, right? But also I know that this person knows their body, respects their agency, and is trustworthy.
That person is trustworthy. They're willing to tell me no. Wow, you know what that means? It means their yes. I I can really believe their yes. I can really believe they're When I get that yes,
Dr. Nicole (1:02:46)
Exactly.
Brandon (1:02:50)
now I now I won't have that as much of that worry when somebody gives me a yes that they're just trying to people please. Cause I know this person just told me no.
Dr. Nicole (1:02:58)
Totally. Don't we love that? Wow. I love that. That's so hot. I'm like, yes.
Brandon (1:03:04)
So hard. Then I can really then I can really let myself have it.
Dr. Nicole (1:03:07)
Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uhhuh. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And then there's so many times too where even like I've had clients who speak to Well, I'm just afraid to tell my partner what I'm needing because I don't wanna hurt their ego.
I know, I know.
Brandon (1:03:28)
Pity. It's called pity, y'all. And it's a burst. It is not sexy. No. Nobody wins. Nobody wins on either side of that.
Dr. Nicole (1:03:35)
I know when we were processing it in the group, I was like, I think that's an invitation to raise the standards. If someone takes that as a shot to their ego, that's not the person I wanna play with.
Brandon (1:03:46)
Yeah.
Dr. Nicole (1:03:47)
It's that simple. I mean, granted, we want to say it kindly. We don't want to be assholes by how we say it, right? But if truly me coming into like, hey, I need more pressure on my clit and some more lube next time, and that person freaks out, I'm like, okay, this is not the partnership for me. Actually, there are many fish in the sea, and this is not my stream. Like, no, let's raise the standards. No, you know?
Brandon (1:04:12)
Yeah, you're in different places. It and now now if there's capacity where that person has a big has a big reaction, but there's capacity in that relationship to hold where that person can get to a place of like, wow, these are the feelings that's coming up because I'm I'm feeling super inadequate. I'm feeling like I should just know magically what to do and that what I do should also be good enough. Because if it's not, then I'm a failure of a lover. Right. And a failure of, you know, insert gender thing here. Right. So like now if they can get there.
Now that now we can maybe we can look at that because now we have some emotional attunement taking accountability.
Dr. Nicole (1:04:47)
Right. That's exactly what I was gonna say. It's taking the accountability of that moment to say, This is what's going on for myself, rather than putting it back onto the person of how dare you give me that feedback, you know, like which pushes the discomfort back onto the person who had a very valid request.
Brandon (1:05:04)
Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dr. Nicole (1:05:06)
I I'm all here for the raising of standards to people who have that level of accountability. Cause I think that's so beautiful, right? It's not to like you're the beauty of what you're speaking to here is it's not that you have to be some superhuman who is never insecure, never have moments of doubt, never have any of that. It's the ability to actually name it and take accountability for it of like, wow, I heard that and that's landing for me in this way. I'm going to work through this. Could I have some help in this way, right? Or whatever. You don't even have to figure out all of that.
complexity in yourself. You can ask for support, right? But is it balanced between the work that you're doing for yourself and the requests that you have, right? Cause that's another thing too of like you got to do some of this work with yourself and your community too.
Brandon (1:05:50)
Yes. Absolutely. And I think that, you know, I I think about this in terms of masculinity, which I I love working with. I love working with men. I love working with who are moving into like, you know, masculine elements in their life. Because spoiler alert, the the apex, the zenith of masculinity is not not asking for directions. That is not it. That is not that is not the the the s the the transcendence, my guys.
Dr. Nicole (1:06:20)
Mm-hmm.
Brandon (1:06:22)
and it also doesn't mean that asking for directions has to be this moment of like, fuck, I have failed and I I'm like crumbling, you know, and I need to be apologetic about it. Because I work with couples as when I do intimacy coaching, right? I'm working with couples, I'm coaching them, right? And working with heterosexual couples in particular is really interesting because I'll often often like
As an aside, I'll I'll I'll I'll take the dude and and I'll say, Look, man, I'm gonna say I'm gonna say the same thing to you twice and you tell me how different it feels, right? Hey, you know, I I I I really want to do this thing, but you know, no worries if not, like taking that whole no worries if not, it's if it's uncomfortable, you know, that's okay. We don't have to do it, you know, whatever.
Dr. Nicole (1:07:07)
Yeah.
Brandon (1:07:08)
How does that feel when I'm talking to you about that? Does that feel like I I'm like in I I'm bringing you desire and I'm bringing you confidence and that, you know.
I can hand the and that I can handle feedback? Probably not. I'm already I'm already having you take care of me in that moment.
Dr. Nicole (1:07:25)
Yeah, your nervous system is shaky.
Brandon (1:07:26)
I'm
already shaky, right? Does that make you feel relaxed and like you're ready to receive, right? Probably not. But if I but but if I come to you and I say, Hey, look at me. I always want you to tell me if something doesn't feel right.
Will you do that for me? I always want you to tell me if something is a yellow, and I always want you to tell me no. Do you understand? How does that feel?
Dr. Nicole (1:07:54)
Mm mm. Spicy. Yeah, yeah. Warm and spicy all at the same time.
Brandon (1:07:59)
Right. What's it like if you square your body and you make eye contact and you create this holding, which is a way of of of leaning in, right? Which is a way of like, I'm with you right now. And I want to make sure that you hear me. Your no, I want it. Right? Do not deny me that if that is in play. I always want you to tell me if something doesn't feel right. Yeah. You're gonna get the same result. In fact, more because now this person is not afraid of your feelings. And
You just did all that laden with desire and focus.
Dr. Nicole (1:08:31)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And hence where the bodywork of the self is so profound because the nervous system of those two different states, you know, is radically different. They're like, it's okay. And if it's not if it doesn't align, like that's fine, you know, like versus the mm-hmm, I'm right here, right? Like those are two different states of what you can hold.
in your own body. And so yes, men specifically, in terms of feeling like they have to have it all figured out. They have to have this like perfect persona. I know like the eldest daughter energy, you know, myself. Some of us who got like really hyper independent. Whoa.
Brandon (1:09:14)
Yeah, it it it it's a type it's a type for yo.
Dr. Nicole (1:09:18)
I love that I built my business with it though. It's dope. But yeah, there's there's some parts. There's some parts. I feel really grateful. Jessica Fern has been mentoring me, which is like magical. Dreamy. Yeah, it's such a dream. and I was working through some of my discomfort with like stepping into video and being visible as a woman who talks about sex and like people coming after me and what that's gonna feel like and
She was like, Well, why don't you ask some of your lovers and your people to give you feedback about what they love about you? And like my immediate reaction was like, I already know, I don't need to ask like they're just this very like st like this very stubborn, like, psh, I don't need that, Jessica. Like I was like It's like I'm gonna be vulnerable at my ass 'cause that's my homework for this week, you know? I have that similar sort of thing where I wanna feel like I have it all put together because that's what it's it's what got me safe to this point of like being like I I have this all put together so like
Men, people who have had to get to this point of like leading within their families, eldest child like anybody who's had to have had that. It's it's it's a really vulnerable opening moment to be like, Hi, I'm kind of scared about this thing. Can I have some support in that? Oof.
Mm-hmm. You're just looking at me and I'm like,
Brandon (1:10:37)
I I I got I got a couple of eldest daughters in my life, so
Dr. Nicole (1:10:40)
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you know the type. Wicked.
Brandon (1:10:43)
I'm I'm real familiar with this.
Dr. Nicole (1:10:45)
I love us.
Brandon (1:10:47)
It's great. Yeah. It's super great. There's a lot of power there. This is a it works real well in a lot of ways. And also Sometimes you sometimes you need that steady hand that's like, no, no, no. Why don't we try that again? Will you tell me how you're feeling? Mm-hmm. And and what you need right now. How can that be with you?
Dr. Nicole (1:11:07)
Totally. Totally. I don't need you. Fine. Figure it out.
Brandon (1:11:12)
Uh-huh. Yeah, but what if you didn't have to? Okay, yeah, I know that you can. What if you didn't have to? What would that look right now?
Dr. Nicole (1:11:19)
Exactly.
Yes. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Now we can collaborate and make something even more powerful than just me having to figure it out on my own. Wow. What a concept. Like the magic on the other side of that.
Brandon (1:11:35)
We all agree.
Dr. Nicole (1:11:37)
It's it's a life it's a lifelong journey. It's a lifelong journey.
Brandon (1:11:42)
Uh-huh. Which, you know, in owning my stuff, like me as me as a middle child, I'm really good at introducing that bit, but I need more of the eldest daughter stuff of of being able to of sometimes I don't have to like make room for everybody else. I can just do my own thing. Right. I can decide what's right for me. And I don't have to always like check in with everybody and
Dr. Nicole (1:12:03)
Mm.
Brandon (1:12:04)
and and level the playing field all the time. I don't have to do that as a as a fun to react. So I actually
It's kind of funny because we benefit from each other. Like I need some of what you got and you need some of what I got.
Dr. Nicole (1:12:15)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, you can step into prioritizing your pleasure and dealing with the discomfort of other people and how that might land, 'cause you're just as worthy of that too. Yeah.
Brandon (1:12:25)
That's right.
Dr. Nicole (1:12:29)
I love asking people the question of if you were to look back to your younger self, what words of wisdom and advice would you share with them?
Brandon (1:12:42)
I don't think when I was younger I could have known what to do with any of this. But I I will say I I might have even said this on on our on our previous podcast too, but I stand by it because as I continue to live it, it keeps unfolding more and more. But it's this. This is what this is what keeps living in me over and over again. I keep turning it over.
Choose pain over suffering.
Dr. Nicole (1:13:06)
Yeah.
Brandon (1:13:08)
Choose pain over suffering because there is wisdom in the difference between them, and there is power in the choice.
And I'm still learning how to move into that.
But they are not the same thing.
Dr. Nicole (1:13:28)
Yeah, yeah.
Brandon (1:13:30)
We
don't have to choose a lot of our suffering. And sometimes the way out of suffering is to choose something that is immediately more painful, but also more honest.
Dr. Nicole (1:13:37)
Mm. Mm.
Mm-hmm mm whoever said growth was easy.
Brandon (1:13:47)
Yeah, or comfortable. Yeah.
Dr. Nicole (1:13:50)
Yeah. And unlearning systems of oppression. Whoever said that was gonna be a comfortable roller coaster, right? Like that is nuts, nuts, right? It's a road of much discomfort and tears and confusion and existential questioning of all of it, right? But that's that's the journey.
Brandon (1:14:10)
And we can learn to be we can learn to be comfortable in our suffering is the
Dr. Nicole (1:14:13)
Yeah.
Brandon (1:14:14)
like like learning to actually choose pleasure or choose integrity is hard, especially if we are very familiar with suffering. It can actually even become a part of our personality, become a part of our identity. There can even be sort of badges of honor that come with it. Sometimes there's a lot of rewards that come with suffering in particular ways because they're seen as virtuous. Yeah. And I'm not saying there's not a time to have moments.
where we elect to do those things because it aligns with our values or it's what's needed in the moment. But when we adopt that as our modus operandi, that suffering, you know, is is is the virtuous thing to do and we can become so comfortable with it.
I I don't know. I th I feel like that's that's a version of dying that I don't want to do. I'd rather I'd rather I'd rather kill myself over and over again in the sense of like dying to my own sense of self and ego, you know, and and the the skin that I've worn. You know, I'd rather kill that. I'd rather die in that way over and over again through pain.
rather than languishing in a skin that I'm kinda bursting out of and it's really tight, you know, it's kind of tearing across my body, it's itchy, you know what I mean? Like my fucking eyes covered by one of you know the things, you know.
Dr. Nicole (1:15:31)
Yeah, yeah. Some of the metaphors I've heard are you know, the person who's in a stream and they're holding on to the rock as the water is coming up into their face because they really don't want to sit with change and they're like, I'm right here and I've got it, I'm secure, and like the water is coming up in their face and you can't even breathe because the water's so intense, like, I won't deal with the change, I'm right here. But like you're just suffering in it because you won't just let go and just actually float downstream and and and really just go with it.
And be with it, right? I mean, I feel like that's a really good metaphor to speak to it of like at some point you just have to surrender to the human experience and embrace that this is a part of it. If you want to be the person that you want to be, right? It's not easy to do any of this stuff. It's not easy to fucking make a garden, like even a garden. Like you have to put time and energy into that and like discomfort of like going out there, moving your body, doing these things, right? Like, especially with like
the speed at which we're able to access things in our current generations and even younger, like we're really losing the the touch into like hard work over time and like what it means to really toil in the garden for something rather than like instantaneous results and things. And so yeah, it's gonna be a continual embrace of like what it means to be in pain as a part of like just the human condition, not the suffering part, right? That's the choice parts. That's what they say in Buddhism, right? Like the pain is inevitable, but suffering is the choice. But like
The pain part is inevitable.
Brandon (1:17:00)
Yes. So what kind of pain would you choose to have?
Dr. Nicole (1:17:03)
Exactly,
not the one with the water in my face. Fuck that. I'm letting go and I'm gonna be a different girly on the other side. I don't know who she is on the other side, but I'm gonna be her, you know?
Brandon (1:17:12)
Yeah. You know, I love the garden metaphor too. I I I'm I'm I'm an amateur gardener myself and and it reminds me of of one of my favorite quotes by Captain Jean Le Picard, which is it is it is possible to do everything correctly and still lose. That is not failure, that is life.
Dr. Nicole (1:17:32)
Mm-hmm.
Brandon (1:17:33)
And with a garden that becomes really true because you can you can your plantings can be on time, right? You can water, you can make sure you trowel everything.
But the season may turn in such a way the frost may come early and you may lose that. You may lose the things you have lovingly cared for, whatever. You can do everything right. Yeah. There's still things that are not in your control that will happen and you will still lose. that doesn't make it fruitless because it I still had every day, my hands were in the soil.
Dr. Nicole (1:17:58)
Yeah, exactly.
Brandon (1:18:00)
And I'll do it again. It might be discouraging. Right. Right. It it might be cr I might be crestfallen for a bit, but I spent all that time being true to something.
Dr. Nicole (1:18:09)
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, and that's where the joy comes from the cheesy journey, right? Rather than the destination or the outcome. Yeah. But it's cheesy because it's real. You know? Like those things are cheesy because they hit. You know, we have to honor that.
Brandon (1:18:27)
Yeah, the corniest the corniest stuff is corny because like it is so so like embarrassingly human.
Dr. Nicole (1:18:34)
Exactly. Yeah. It's like damn it. Yeah. Well, Brendan, it's been such a joy to connect with you today and have a round two on the show.
Brandon (1:18:44)
that's such a great time. So great to reconnect. Yeah.
Dr. Nicole (1:18:47)
absolutely, absolutely. Well I'll check in with you and take a deep breath together.
and so the last closing question that I have for every guest on the show is What is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?
Brandon (1:19:09)
Living is also death work.
Ask yourself, what can be laid to rest in your life? What needs to die so that you can live? What could be ready to be put into the earth or let go into the running river or offered to the flame so that new growth can happen? Living is also death work. So is eroticism. If you want to claim the essence of that life, what needs to be burned up?
Or removed out of the way.
Dr. Nicole (1:19:48)
Do you have an answer for yourself in the here and the now? Oof, yeah, vulnerable.
Brandon (1:19:55)
I think it's this. I think it's showing up to have conversations like this and put myself out there in a way that it doesn't come easy for me.
Dr. Nicole (1:20:03)
You do so good at it. This was so good. Yeah.
Brandon (1:20:06)
Leo Sun.
Dr. Nicole (1:20:08)
Amazing.
Brandon (1:20:11)
but it's also, you know, it feels risky to me and it feels kind of it feels kind of vulnerable. And but I think showing up to this and joining joining with my community, with my my peers and my comrades is a part.
Dr. Nicole (1:20:24)
Absolutely. Absolutely. I hear you. That's exactly what I was speaking to, right? In the episode of like the vulnerability of visibility. It is scary, especially in the work that we do, right? There are so many different systems that are coming for us. And we have so much privilege in these systems too, with the credentials, the race, all these other pieces. And so it's like, I'm gonna fucking go at it. I'm gonna fucking go at it. But it's
That's not to say that there aren't days of negative comments on your content or other things and the sist and it it is real to hold all of that in your body as you do this work 'cause any sort of sexuality work is not easy in our systems. Yeah.
Brandon (1:21:04)
Yeah. That's why we do what we do.
Dr. Nicole (1:21:06)
And it's incredibly necessary.
Brandon (1:21:10)
Crucial.
Dr. Nicole (1:21:11)
Here we are. Here we are. Here we are. Yeah.
Brandon (1:21:17)
Glad to be w in it with you, comrade.
Dr. Nicole (1:21:19)
Totally.
Same, same here. Well, I'm sure people would love to know. How can they find you? How can they connect with you? How can they learn more about your work?
Brandon (1:21:29)
Hmm. Ampersand Intimacy is my practice, and you can find me at ampersandintimacy.com.
Dr. Nicole (1:21:36)
Amazing.
Thank you, Brandon. It was such a joy to have you on today's episode.
Dear listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Modern Anarchy. Thank you for sharing this episode with your friends, with your lovers, with your community. Truly, it means so much to me, and I am so grateful that you are here. If you are wanting to release jealousy in your non-monogamous dynamics and step into compersion and pleasure-filled connection,
You can read my book, The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide, for free on my website. There, you will also find so many other free resources, including worksheets on how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non-monogamous dynamics and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure-filled sex and relationships.
So head on over to modernanarchy podcast dot com to find all of those free resources. And I look forward to seeing you next week.
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