288. Sensual Massage and Healing Sexual Trauma - Liam
0:27
On today's episode, we have Liam join us for a conversation all about slowing down to receive.
Together we talk about the Eroticism of attunement, dismantling pleasure phobia, and building more expansive communities of care.
0:46
Hello dear listener and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.
I'm so delighted that you are here and tuning in with the pleasure activist from around the world.
My name is Doctor Nicole, I'm a queer, non monogamous psychotherapist and a provider of psychedelic assisted psychotherapy and I teach students from around the world how to craft pleasurable sex lives and non monogamous relationships.
1:13
Dear listener, what a special episode to be bringing you today because the things that I shared in this episode are not things that I could have possibly shared five years ago when I started the podcast, when I had just come into the space when sort of finding my grounding to talk about sexual experiences, to talk about things that are outside the box of quote, UN quote, normality and the pleasure phobia is rampant in America particularly.
1:44
And these sorts of conversations when they ripple through your ears, dear listener, when you end up talking about these conversations with your friends and continuing to really open up about the vulnerability of these experiences, that's how we have that slow change, right?
2:01
One person at a time, one conversation at a time.
And dear listener, I promise that you'll be moved.
You know, I cry today.
We talk, we love.
It's all of those good things and more.
And it feels, yeah, really sentimental to be bringing you my last audio only episode, dear listener.
2:20
Next week is video.
And it is surreal to have been making this creative baby for you for the last nine months and to be releasing it into the world next week.
And Liam's episode is such a beautiful chapter closing for that because like I said, again, like I could have never had this conversation five years ago and stepping into video in this new chapter, I am so excited to see where we will be in another five years, dear listener.
2:48
The conversations are going to be even Wilder, even deeper, so much less shame.
And I'm so excited that you were here and stopped in for the ride and that we are building community together in this space.
And so thank you, dear Listener, for tuning in.
All right, dear listener, if you're ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore all of my free offerings and resources.
3:11
I have my free ebook, the Psychedelic jealousy guide, my dissertation.
I have worksheets for you and your partners and your lovers to craft secure commitments and non monogamy and to really expand the language of your erotic profile.
All that's for free at modernanarchypodcast.com, LinkedIn, the show notes below.
3:30
And I want to say the biggest thank you to my Patreon supporters.
Thank you for supporting me for the last five years.
I could not have done this work without you.
So thank you.
And with that, dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love and I'll see you in video next week.
3:51
And let's TuneIn to today's episode.
So the first question that I love to ask each guest is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?
My name is Liam, I am a sensual body worker.
4:15
Beautiful, welcome back.
Thank you.
It's good to be here.
It's.
Good to be back.
We've definitely upgraded since back in the day.
I love it.
Do you remember our first recording on the couch?
Vividly, Yes, I do.
It was a big part of my life.
It was a big moment for me.
4:31
Oh my goodness.
I just remember us sitting like cross legged because I only had invested in one microphone.
Yeah.
And so it was bidirectional.
Yeah, yes.
Yes, yes, yes.
I was very nervous.
Oh yeah.
Five years ago, almost to the day.
4:49
Yeah, it's exciting.
Yeah.
I'm excited to have you back and to tell the real story.
The real story the.
Real story, yeah.
For context, Liam had given me a yoni massage five years ago, and so I invited him onto the show.
5:06
But at the time, I was way too terrified to say those words that I just said out loud because of the system of clinical psychology and God forbid and what if and oh God.
And so I came into that conversation very neutral, like, well, what do you do with your clients?
5:24
What does it look like?
As if I had never seen this or had this sort of experience myself.
Yeah, it was.
It was very impressive how you didn't reveal much.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, the skills of a true therapist.
5:42
Yeah, yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it was interesting in that recording, too.
I invited you to do a guided meditation on the spot.
Yes.
OK.
And I think I've told you since then that video on YouTube has over 100,000 plays.
6:00
I'm honored and happy.
It has hopefully brought people lots of deep pleasure and understanding of their bodies.
It has.
It has.
It has in many ways.
In many ways, Yeah.
Yeah.
And inspired me to make some guided meditations too, after that.
6:15
And yeah, equally, hundreds of thousands of plays.
Like, there's a huge world out there looking for this sort of stuff.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
People need pleasure.
Also, before we get into my experience working with you, I'm curious, how do you understand yoni massage?
6:34
What does that look like for the listener who's never experienced it?
Could you walk us through a little bit of what that looks like?
Yeah, this is a practice I've been doing for almost 9 years now, pretty consistently working with mostly cisgendered women, some trans and non binary folks, and some CIS men.
7:03
The experience itself is basically a full body flowing massage everywhere, head, shoulders, neck, hips, butt, legs, feet, whole body to relax not only your body but your, you know, your muscles, your nervous system get your energy aligned, bring your mind kind of down into your body.
7:34
So that's what it starts with and eventually moves towards the more sensual, more erotic energy, the erotic space, the erotic zones of the body to cultivate and channel that such powerful, potent sexual energy that we all possess.
7:55
I mean, like, tap into that, help people tap into that kind of like a big tease, a lot of teasing to awaken, you know, to call in to awaken and eventually moving to the Yoni genitals to again, like unlock that sort of pleasure, power, creativity, love, release, whatever, you know, comes up for people.
8:23
Yeah, who are on the table?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I remember during my experience, I kept thinking like, when are we going to get to the generals?
When is it going to happen?
What is it going to happen?
What is it going to happen, you know, which is actually a lot of reflection of my sex life at the time in many ways of like, when are we going to do it?
8:40
When are we going to get there, right.
So it was really powerful to see how much that was also occurring on the table.
And we'll get into so much more of what was occurring on the table for me because I've talked about that for years now on the podcast.
Yeah, yeah.
8:56
I mean, not, you know, maybe we'll get to this, but like that brings up a really good point of like we're not taking time.
We're not allowed time in this culture to, to to wait or to find that or to like, you know, that everything's so linear and A to B and, and.
9:15
Right.
You know, everything is down to the minute and the second, you know, Google Maps will tell you how long you'll get there.
You know, it's like everything is so calculated and so just, you know, like, let's get to the point going to touch my genitals or what?
But I for myself and for, I think a lot of people who come see me, the slowing down is really important, the creating that space for yourself to receive and to like go places you're not used to going with your partner or yourself, right?
9:45
Or because you're not allowed to, you weren't taught to, right?
You don't know how to.
So many of those things.
So historically, I'm in grad school, right?
I am assigned this project where I'm supposed to be a receiver of care.
10:05
That was your assignment.
That was my assignment.
I was like, you need to be a receiver of care.
So go out and find a practitioner, somebody who will give you some sort of experience.
And I was thinking to myself, like, I, you know, I came into the field with such a focus of wanting to work on sexual assault trauma because of my own experience and the experiences of so many of the people in my community, you know, And so that was really my focus.
10:27
And I had heard about yoni massage work being really helpful for people with trauma.
I had no idea what it looked like, any of the things.
So I get this assignment.
I go to my professor.
I'm like, hey, like, can I do something sex work related?
And she's like, yeah, Nicole, that's fine.
10:46
You can do that.
Which was like such a, a huge moment in academia to be like, I can do the sex work experience for my assignment.
Whoa.
OK, so I'm really excited.
I googled yoni massage Chicago to which I find your website and I'm like, well, it doesn't hurt to put in an inquiry.
11:07
I guess I'll just, I don't know.
And then we schedule a phone call.
And I remember being at the rock climbing gym when we had the call time and I was like over in the corner and I'm like, well, you're like, what?
What are you?
Why are you wanting to do this work?
And I was like, well, I mean, I've gone through sexual assault.
I've heard this is really healing.
11:22
Just like at the climbing gym in the corner like, but you were so warm at the time.
And it felt crazy to me that I had just Googled this and this is a complete stranger.
But everything about my gut interaction when I had that phone call with you is like this feels safe.
Yeah, that's step one, right?
11:41
Yeah.
I mean, as a white male myself, working with women mostly, like, you know, you have to feel safe to be able to come be so vulnerable.
Oh yeah, With, you know, a stranger.
Basically, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
11:59
So then we set a date.
We had it on the calendar.
I texted all of my girlfriends.
I was like, here's my location if I do not come out of this house.
But obviously it was totally fine.
You were like, I have a wife, which was really grounding at the time.
You know, I was like sick, OK, Like this guy has a wife.
12:14
You obviously live in here.
OK, So I go and I remember I had the plan.
I was like, OK, I want to drop in.
I want to do a couple of things.
I want to get high.
I love cannabis.
It's a heart opener.
My relationship with it has evolved so much so over the five years.
12:32
But like it is a heart opener and in many ways an amplifier of your experience when you feel safe enough to go to that place pleasure.
Creativity, yeah.
But to do it with a stranger and all the content, I'm just raising the bar.
Like looking back and making, well, you're raising the bar on the possible factors here.
12:48
Yeah, but it felt aligned at the time and it was really great.
I was like, I want to do some weed before we get on the table.
And I also want to be naked and do some tantric breath work before we start.
Yeah, yeah, my I just remember you smoking some weed in the room and just like being naked and doing down dog right next to the massage table and just like stretching and I it was just great.
13:13
That was a that was a unique is a unique experience for me.
Yeah, I'm sure on the other side you're like, who is this energy?
It was good, which is great.
But yeah, so it was really powerful.
I don't think I had ever, I think I had heard of tantric breath work and eye gazing.
13:29
I had watched enough YouTube videos but I had never done it before.
Yeah, yeah.
And like yeah, I and that.
So that is something ioffer to people if they're interested or if I've seen them before, because to do it with a total stranger, it's actually almost like more vulnerable than just like lying naked on a table in my paper.
13:50
Yeah.
Like sitting like facing each other, just breathing and looking into each other's eyes is like, yeah, very opening and brave, you know.
And yeah, so it doesn't.
It doesn't happen that often on a first time session for.
People.
Oh my God, yeah, that's what I wrote in my paper, that the eye gazing was fundamentally more vulnerable and intense than any of the massage and genital touch.
14:19
Just hands down.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because you know, you're in.
You're not only a stranger, but like if there's been assault or trauma like with a man.
Which there was for me, yeah.
Yeah.
And then you just like are so fully present with your soul, your breath and your eyes, which which is like your soul, Yeah.
14:42
Just exposed and connecting.
Like getting that attunement, that entrainment with someone else's breath and soul and energy is like very, very scary.
Yeah.
And brave.
Yeah.
I commend you for, you know, you really knew what you wanted and were like leading the experience in a way.
14:58
Yeah.
Which is always helpful for me to like help guide, you know?
Yeah.
Create that container.
Totally, Yeah.
And in those moments, I've had clients who have experienced it in other situations and how to be very activating it in that moment when you are present with another person, you can project a million different things onto those eyes that you're looking at coming from, like you said, your own experience or traumas or different things.
15:22
And so in the assignment that I had written about this, maybe I'll have a link to it I could put, I could post it on my website and have people if they want to read it.
In the assignment I had written that my intention in that moment was to place profound trust into you as the facilitator, even though there was no technical like evidence of that.
15:41
Like you had a website, these other things.
But you know, just to like sit and instead of be in a space of fear of what's going to happen or any of these things, just to say I trust this person before me.
And that's all I was focusing on.
It's just like I trust this human being.
I trust this person and just holding that eye contact.
15:59
Yeah, that gets into like the bravery that these like hundreds of women who've come to see me.
It just speaks to that.
Oh yeah, like.
I, I'm so humbled and honored and like in awe of the, the, the people who just like find this man on the Internet offering this service and, and show up and then, you know, often continue to show up.
16:27
It's just like, it's awesome and I'm grateful and I'm just like so in awe of.
That strength.
Because a lot of, I've, I've worked with a lot of people with trauma, with assaults of all types, you know, So I see, I see a lot of that also just people like in a sexless marriage or don't, aren't being touched or have never orgasmed or were like assaulted before being like able to orgasm and like just never experiencing pleasure.
17:02
And, and it's just such a wide range of people coming to see me.
Also people who just like have a massage kink, you know, sure, there's, there's a whole spectrum, but regardless, like I just am, it's just so brave.
It helps fuel me and like helps me kind of recognize that it's really important and like helps me continue doing the work and just humbles me.
17:28
Some people's experiences, you know, everyone has such, such a deep well of experience and knowledge and pain and love and pleasure.
You know, it's just, it's everything.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, as a fellow practitioner, I feel it sometimes.
You keep doing the work, but when you reflect on actually what you're doing and the role you're playing in people's lives, Oh yeah, You actually sit with the weight of that.
17:51
It's incredibly profound in so many ways.
Totally.
Of course, you know, there's been many times that I'm like, can I hold this amount of pain or, you know, can I hold the space for people for this long And you know.
Yeah.
Yeah, but that's what we're here for, I think, to help each other in whatever ways we've been deemed.
18:11
Yeah, and nine years is a long time doing it.
Yeah, yeah, a lot's changed.
Oh, of course, any practitioner.
Five years in myself, you know, I mean knowing you for that amount of time.
Yeah, we'll get into it.
Yeah, I'm facing them.
18:26
We're teasing them.
We can't get too far this.
Is what we do.
We tease in the session.
The erotic teasing.
I think what's really important before we even get to the massage experience too, is that in that moment when I had come in, I said, yeah, I want to be naked and I want to do tantric breath work.
18:45
And I remember you saying, do you want me to get naked too?
To which I said, I don't care.
Like at that point in my life, I didn't even have the capacity to say no.
19:01
And you looked at me and you saw my body and you were like, I'm going to pass.
I'm going to keep my clothes on.
And when I look back on that moment, I know I said I cried like, you know, before and experiencing like just thinking about this recording and doing this again with you of just thinking like in that moment, like there was no ability for me to say no in that way.
19:20
Like I just still hadn't even tapped into any of that.
And it like, thank God you read that situation properly and that you have, you know, a moral and ethic code because I, you know, was in a very vulnerable place in my life where I still had no capacity just to be like, no, I'm not comfortable with that.
19:40
But you picked up on it immediately in my body language.
And and that moment also stayed with me for a long time, that you didn't force that and that you really attuned to me in a way I couldn't even attune for myself yet.
Yeah, yeah, I'm glad to hear that.
I know.
19:56
Yeah, You know, I ask because sometimes people would prefer that as part of their experience.
But like it it, this whole thing, although it like taps into my own sexual energy and interests because like, of course, like I couldn't be doing it if I wasn't interested in it and in some way charged by it.
20:16
Like most of the time, you know, it fuels me.
There's a connection there, but like there's SO.
It my whole thing and intention with this has just been like to create that safe container for people to find healing and pleasure and fun and not make it about myself.
20:35
Yeah, totally.
I hear all the time from people that the expectation of reciprocation to their partner, or not even reciprocation, just giving your partner pleasure without receiving any, happens all the time.
Yeah, in a lot of hetero relationships.
20:53
Right, right, right.
You know, so it's really important for me as much as possible to like, take myself out of it.
Oh, yeah.
And I think I said this last time we talked, like I, I try to act as like a conduit, sure of energy, just channeling in loving touch into your body and knowing what your intentions are for the session.
21:11
And just like trying to hold that space, right.
And like, you know, as much as possible, take my own ego out of it.
Yeah, of course, of course.
And and like you're saying that question of reciprocation, that was something that came up the entire time during me and, and was one of the many like catalysts that I would talk about for years on the podcast afterwards.
21:31
In terms of I remember laying on the table and thinking like, you know, I'm receiving this touch, I'm receiving this pleasure at.
I'm just like, oh, I should be giving back to Liam.
I should be giving back to him.
I should be doing this.
And it wasn't until I'm integrating this experience for years afterwards of, gosh, how hard is it for me to just experience pleasure on my own with my lovers?
21:52
Like, I have this immediate desire to give back, which is not a bad thing per SE, but it's kind of like when someone gives you a compliment, can you actually just take it in or are you that person?
Oh, yeah, you too.
You're so beautiful.
Yeah.
You know, like that immediate pass back.
So I think I realize now with my pleasure life, I had this immediate pass back that wasn't necessarily a fully embodied experience.
22:14
It just felt like what I was supposed to do.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Which takes us out of our own body or, or some of us never feel like we're in our own body, you know?
Yeah, I had this felt sense that I really needed to give back to you and I didn't.
I think when I when I feel into that experience, I don't think we're really free until we're able to receive personally.
22:35
Yeah, exactly.
So many of us are unable to receive or it doesn't feel comfortable to receive.
So we deflect, you know, But like you mentioned, it does feel good to give pleasure to someone.
22:52
But but yeah, can we be in our own bodies first?
Right.
Can we receive like my I have.
I think part of this for me which is funny, is like I have trouble receiving.
Well.
Some during this work and feeler and a.
23:08
Practitioner welcome to the club.
Yes, I'm like, oh, I need, I need to work on this in myself actually, as well as I'm like giving all these massages.
You fit in with so many of the guests.
Hello.
Oh.
Talking.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That makes sense.
23:25
So you felt this sense of the need to reciprocate?
Yeah, the whole, yeah, the whole time.
And I kept trying to remind myself, I mean, when I'm high too, so the thoughts are really loud, you know?
But I kept trying to remind myself, like I'm paying this person that is the mutuality of this entire experience.
23:43
Like I am paying this person, which is also a hell of feminist and empowering on my side.
Like I love the fact that I paid for this experience.
Like, yeah, I paid and had this amazing massage.
And you had told me it's not about the orgasm, but I had a beautiful orgasm.
23:58
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Like, yeah, I paid for that.
Fuck Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you know, men are offered that opportunity.
A lot more, yeah.
A lot more historically.
Yeah, in this culture, you know?
Yeah.
And part of my reason for doing this was like, well, this isn't offered for women.
24:17
What the hell?
You know why?
And yeah, you should be able to like, go do this without like, being, you know, engaging in a relationship of some sort.
Right.
You know right I.
24:32
Mean it is a relationship that we have in that moment, but you know.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it's complete like horror phobia.
I mean, I can go get a massage anywhere else to like massage your butt, but like not the genitals.
Like it's just a very horror phobic or like essentially it's a pleasure phobic society, right.
24:48
And so like we draw the line of which pleasures are OK and which ones are not.
I mean, standard massages drive me crazy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, I like the word here because globally this is not.
Yeah.
You know, Midwest is a little more puritanical.
25:04
Yeah.
The you know, just like the draping of a massage.
I'm like fuck, just like.
And I understand the reason.
Sure, I totally I.
Totally understand the, the, you know, possibility of abuse or, or crossing boundaries.
But like, yeah, another reason I wanted to, like do this is because like, we're excluding these like wildly pleasurable zones and zones of the body that like holds so much tension and like, I mean, we move with our hips everyday and.
25:34
Like that actually.
That creates physical tension and not to mention like blockages of energy and trauma.
And it's just like this needs to be explored.
Yeah.
Pelvic I'm really happy pelvic floor therapy is now.
So common.
Five years ago when we were.
25:50
I've had that.
Talking like, yeah, it was just like becoming a thing.
Oh yeah, now it's really common, which is great, Yeah, but it's also very medical.
And it's medical pleasure forward, I'll tell you that as someone who's experienced it, at least in my 1 experience, I guess I shouldn't speak for all of it, but but at least the practitioner who I was experiencing it with, because I had a I had a case of BV after I just told this pod, this, this story on the podcast that an episode that's going to come out later.
26:20
My lover Catherine and I had this whole day together and we took this luxurious bath at a play party and people were like treating us.
And it was so lovely.
But we forgot to shower before getting in and we had had to eat.
We had deep bug spray all over.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then after that, I would pretty bad case of BB for a while.
26:38
So take your showers.
Take your showers, folks.
But God regret.
But then, yeah, I did a lot of pelvic floor therapy work after that because after having BV for such a significant little chunk of my life, my body was so tight, my pelvic, like everything was so tight that any sort of penetration felt extremely painful.
27:01
And then when I was in those sessions, she would basically say, like, I can do this sort of movement and relaxing on the muscles, but I can't actually do any thrusting, right?
And there was never a question of does this feel good?
It was just like, how does this feel?
You know, it wasn't like, how could I make this feel better?
27:17
Questions that you could ask that she could not ask me because of the experience of what it is.
You know, yeah, yeah.
But there, yeah.
I mean, yeah, it's, it's a good thing that's happening, you know, and Oh my God.
27:34
Yeah.
Just even the awareness people like, oh, I have a bowl, my pelvis is a bowl.
Oh my gosh, there's.
A floor to that bowl and there's a lot of things going on down.
There.
You know, and there's pleasure and there's potential and yeah.
27:49
Yeah, and some cocks are just truly too big for my body.
Like I have to like.
Like the massage work I learned from that pelvic floor therapist is something I've integrated into my partners of like, before you get inside, we need a little bit of massaging here and it makes it so much better.
Yeah, apparently men don't know what foreplay is.
28:08
Right.
Yeah, yeah.
I'm generalizing, Yeah, of course there's some of you are great and you know it.
But from my experience in this field, it's wild.
28:25
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, which before we get too far away into the theory, I was going to read you a little bit of my actual assignment.
Yes.
OK, maybe I'll start just a little bit with the eye gaze and then a paragraph that felt important.
28:49
I decided to focus on softly gazing at his pupils in the room around him.
As this is a recommendation when engaging in tantric breathing exercises, I decided to trust that this individual is going to respect my boundaries of consent, that this individual has intent to help and heal rather than do harm, and that the majority of humans are truly good people.
29:10
Even though I technically had no history of evidence to trust this individual before me, this was extremely powerful as I frequently feel uncomfortable engaging in intimacy with males and have concerns about if they're going to respect my boundaries for sexual intimacy specifically.
29:26
Focusing on the goodness of humanity was very grounding for me.
I think I've experienced a level of distrust for others and especially male individuals as a way to protect and defend myself from being hurt.
I believe this is a very powerful moment for me personally to surrender to trusting the goodness of others doing such an intimate and vulnerable situation, all the while understanding that I have the ability to say no and that my consent is respected.
29:51
I cannot express how hard it was to sit in the beauty beautiful reality of control and trust given how my denial of consent to engage in sexual activities was ignored when I was raped.
In the past.
I've significantly struggled with revoking consent during sexual acts with partners and still to this day have not ever purple eyes.
30:10
My own revoking of consent.
The difficulty of this breathing exercise and overall experience was so extremely empowering in terms of my sexual self and my own autonomy.
It was just crazy at that point.
I still hadn't like paused anybody in a sexual experience.
It was like every time I had sex, it was like, well, we're starting, we're going to get to the end.
30:29
I'd never said no, like, hey, let's pause or readjust.
So I think what I didn't write there was that you had asked, like, is there anywhere you don't want to be touched?
And that was like the first time I had ever been asked that question.
Like that's insane that we live in a world that I had had so much sex before this moment and never had that.
30:49
Yeah, yeah.
Well, first of all, thank you for reading that.
That's.
Really cool.
Yeah.
It's weird to read because it's like, who is she?
She's yeah.
She's not yet empowered, you know, she she's still, like I said that I still couldn't say no.
So like reading that, it's just like, oh, I was just moving about through the world, you know?
31:12
It's you know, I hate this phrase, but like hindsight is 2020, you know, it's it's just the the ever unfolding nature of life and yourself is always magnificent and mind blowing how different things can feel in your, you know, in the present self versus, you know, before how much changes and how much you change.
31:35
And yeah.
And I felt radically empowered at this point.
Yeah.
Five years later, I'm like, don't fuck with me.
I got myself.
You know what I mean?
But at the time, I was like, what?
Yeah.
And I definitely have said no to sex on so many different levels now.
I've told partners to, like, pause midway.
31:51
I've.
I've paused after I had an orgasm and they didn't, you know, like all the pressure stuff is.
I mean, I'm not, I'm still going.
Obviously there's always things to a pack.
But like, just from that line alone of like, I've never said no to somebody and revoked my consent.
32:06
Like, oh, God.
Like I just want to hug my younger self and like, probably give her some therapy.
You know, I would want to heal her in the ways I help people now.
I'm just like, hey, yeah.
Oh, there's so much.
Yeah, I think, you know, thank you for touching upon consent because obviously that's like crucial for and very, very important for me and for people to feel safe in my presence and on the table and, and, and, and in their own bodies.
32:34
You know, because often there's there's a lack of safety in the people's bodies who come see me.
And, you know, it's this like kind of inverse thing.
You're like giving up control on the table.
You're like letting yourself receive and like let go and not reciprocate and like kind of not be in charge in a way.
32:56
But by doing that, it's like, I think so empowering, kind of like you're saying, you know, you're, you have the power to say no or this doesn't feel good or stop or whatever.
But it's, you're also giving yourself up to the, the trust of not only me, but like yourself, you're giving, you're, you're giving into the, the openness and trust of your own body wisdom to know what you need or to let yourself kind of go there.
33:28
If it's feeling comfortable and right.
You know, there's an inherent power in in letting go.
Yeah, I mean, it reminds me so much of the discussions with Doms and sub, right, And how the sub holds so much power because they're the one, you know, they're both experiencing it.
33:44
But the sub gets to, you know, stop at any point.
Of course the Dom can too, right?
But the sub, you would think, because there's the power dynamic with and over from the Dom doesn't have any, but it actually the sub has so much experience and power to be able to call the shots of what happens.
34:00
And so, yeah, when you are surrendering, there's empowerment in that choice because you can revoke it at any time.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
And that's so foreign to a lot of people, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
34:16
And so, I mean, what I know from my work in psychology too is that we just project onto so many people.
So here you are presenting as CIS male perceivably, right.
And so in my experience, really trying to work through the projections that I would have on to you that you were going to, you know, because of my trauma that you would rape me or that you would not do all these other things like that is all coming up.
34:42
So you have the work to really like pull that back and trust somebody.
I mean, I imagine that's what so many of your clients are getting to experience is like a safe experience that is sexually empowering in so many ways, whether it's the money or the experience of just getting to receive the pleasure of it all.
35:01
Or like for me, that first time of saying I don't want to be touched here or there.
What are like this?
I mean, those are profoundly healing experiences that the world needs to know more about.
Yeah.
And I think what I've learned over the years is, yeah, I am kind of, I'm acting as this male figure and trying to, like, change that perception or that experience with men for typically women on the table.
35:36
Yeah.
You know, and that sounds like some big ego bullshit, which you did.
For me, I mean, listen, you did for me.
Yeah.
And I think that's that's what's happening, you know, talking about the projections and it's it's as much as I can.
I'm trying to offer that space of a safe male.
35:54
Yeah, you know, sure.
Experience in the sexual like sphere.
Yes, yeah.
And I think that's really important.
And, you know, I'm no St.
I've heard a lot of people in my past and, you know, made a lot of mistakes and, you know, we all have.
36:10
Yeah.
But it's I think it's a really important part of this work.
I've been realizing more and more.
And I, you know, I said something I think five years ago when we talked on the first conversation and about like, I'm sad for men and like, it's the men that need help, you know, and you know, we all need help, but like, God damn.
36:35
Yeah, I mean, the suicide rates are much higher for a reason.
Yeah, and and there's these like impossible standards for men under capitalism and in our current culture to like earn all this money and be strong and like don't show your emotions.
And then also like, be a good provider and be emotional and, and and we and then like all this like red pill looks maxing bullshit and like, you know, hyper masculinity, whatever is going on and not being offered avenues for emotional vulnerability.
37:10
And because of porn, because of culture, because of politics, because of, you know, I said this before, but like so many, so many partners have been like, can you teach my husband how to do this?
You should offer like workshops.
37:26
So I'm like, OK, well, if they ever seek it out and ask me, I will.
Yeah.
But the men aren't coming to be like, how do you touch a yoni?
Yeah.
You know, yeah, when they, when they ask, I'll, I'll do it.
OK, Yeah, yeah.
37:43
Which is a good invitation for the people who want to learn.
Yeah.
And, you know, and I sit there, I'm like, well, what would I teach them?
I'm like, just listen.
Sure.
Just listen with your hands, listen with your body.
Watch them breathe.
Pacing too.
Pacing.
Yeah, you could ask questions.
37:58
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Concept.
But you know, it's, I'm like, I don't know what I would teach, just kind of like be present with your whoever's in front of you.
You know, I'm meeting people like for the first time.
Sure.
And often a lot of them are having like crazy orgasms, squirting.
38:15
Yeah, whatever.
Yeah.
Although that's not the goal, which I mentioned.
Like please state like be in your body, wherever that is.
For you, right, right.
But there's these like wild releases happening.
Oh yeah.
You know.
I think that, I mean, I it's hard to compare orgasms and is that really good?
38:31
You know, I don't know.
Comparison is the thief of joy.
But when I remember the orgasm that I had with you, it was very special in the sense that it feels like the most embodied orgasm and that's what most like.
38:47
That's a big word.
So like I, I can't remember all of them, but I was distinctively remember because the anxiety and my body was pretty loud about the giving back or when is it going to happen or all that sort of stuff that the only way to ground myself was to come back to my breath and to start just really focusing on my breath.
39:06
So in that moment, all I focused on was the inhale and the exhale.
And I truly just stayed there.
Like there was no other thoughts happening.
And so I remember as my body started to like get closer and closer to climax and ultimately coming, there were no cognitive thoughts going on, you know, which is most of my orgasms feel very connected to like who am I having sex with and what are we doing and where's the world or the fantasy?
39:35
So that was such a like clear mind embodied experience in that way.
Yeah, I, I often just guide, tell people to use your breath as a guide.
Way easier said than done.
But always return to your breath.
39:51
Yeah, in life on the table when you're receiving this massage, like.
And I'll cue people, you know, I noticed they kind of their breath gets a little more shallow.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And take a deep breath or all take a deep breath, sure to remind them that that's the rhythm.
Like that's the that's the space.
40:07
And like that's the time is the breath.
And I also say, yeah, before, like as you get turned on, if you get turned on, you kind of like we have habitual ways of achieving climax typically.
And so I like to remind people to like, let's do the opposite.
40:26
Like, let's breathe deeper and try to like, relax our body in that moment and just like, be present with the sensations, be present with the touch that you're feeling and see what happens.
Oh yeah.
See what happens, you know?
Yeah, and that's what my breath did do.
It got like much longer and longer.
40:44
Instinctively, I wasn't trying to do that.
It just happened.
And then I just like a beautiful orgasm.
I was such a soft little babe after I got out.
I just all the intense, you know, anxiety and the feeling and this big cathartic release and the massage.
41:01
I was just like, you know, and you were.
You told me specifically you're like, go do something calm, relaxing, go home, take care of yourself.
Chill, chill, chill, chill, chill.
You know, Yeah, it's a big release.
Because in a lot of ways, it's, it's like a release people have never had.
41:16
You know, there's, there's so many ways that this release can be surprising to people and unfamiliar.
And so I'm, I always caution and like guide to, you know, be gentle with yourself.
Yeah.
Like any psychedelic trip, I tell my clients the same thing.
41:34
Yes aftercare.
Yes, some aftercare.
You know, and it's hard to like Co experience this and then go back into your car and drive into traffic and like I, I worry about people driving home sometimes.
Yeah, well, you're just so open.
You're like, what is life?
41:50
What is life?
Yeah, you know.
Yeah, it.
Can be really powerful.
Get picked up.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
And when I think about this experience and where that room was specifically, I find it really beautiful and important and a very valuable conversation to say that that is now the room of your child.
42:14
Yeah, Segway.
Yes, it is.
Tell me, Father.
Yes.
Holding that, holding that you are a dad, now you have a daughter, how does it feel to be someone who does this work and also holds that second identity of of father?
42:34
Always unfolding, I'm sure she's she's young.
She's 16 months now.
And, you know, beautifully, wonderfully amazing.
Obviously super hard, obviously, yeah.
42:51
And the identity around this is something I've been thinking a lot about lately.
Every time I go get her in the middle of the night at 3:00 AM and she's crying and I'm like, this room holds a lot of good energy.
Oh yeah, Oh yeah, it does.
Maybe this makes me sound like a bad parent.
43:10
My my baby now lives in the former sex work room.
Well, I.
Mean I don't care former that's the important part of this conversation is you now have a different office location where you do this.
Yes yes, yes, but interesting crazy, crazy fact.
Did you know that babies come from sex?
43:25
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
I'm not ready for that.
Unless we're doing IVF, but there's still masturbation.
There's still masturbation involved in the sperm.
Yeah, you.
Know yeah, yeah, I I also work a lot with fertility work in the other worlds I work in for whatever reason the womb is an important space for me and I love it and I'm happy to be helping people with fertility, with orgasm, with pleasure in whatever ways I can so it feels good yeah.
43:57
But yeah, having a daughter, yeah, in this world.
Right, exactly.
You know, the beautiful thing about having a baby is it's so present.
There's so much presence happening in immediacy, which I am so fucking grateful for right now in these times.
44:21
I mean, obviously I spin out and think about the future and her growing up, you know, and men.
Yeah, of course.
And it scares me.
Yeah, of course, of course.
Yeah, yeah.
44:41
But my partner and I, you know, we discussed like having kids a lot and like if we wanted that in this world, you know, bringing a child into this world.
And like something that has resonated for us is that it is a radical act of hope.
44:59
It's a radical act of hope to have a child in this climate.
Because if you don't have hope, what's the point?
And hope is activating.
Actually, it's not optimism.
It's it's it like activates you hope.
And I think being a parent, although it's like such a time suck and, and the day-to-day is like so hard, hard and involved, but it like activates you to, you know, make a better world in different ways, you know, for your child.
45:31
So, yeah, I, I don't know, like I, I want to keep doing this work.
My wife and I have been non monogamous for like a decade.
That's looked different in different ways, looks different now.
But like, that's part of our makeup as a couple.
You know, any my upbringing around sex and relationship was like very vanilla, boring, not talked about shame heavy.
45:59
So just, you know, with this work, just creating conversations around it, acceptability, normalizing it, and, you know, we do the work we do to create more space for that in the world, you know, or like make the world better.
46:22
Of.
Course, you know, or to normalize things, you know, like sex, sex therapy and relationship dynamics.
You know, it, we're, we're doing it to normalize it and to make it people feel heard and like comfortable.
So I, I just hope that I can stay open and talk to her about the work I do and whatever.
46:43
But it's, yeah, there's a certain weight to it, of course, now I think.
Of course.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, you're looking into the eyes of a small little baby that can fit in the size of your hands.
Yeah, yeah.
That's going to crack your heart open in so many different ways.
46:59
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I'm always worried about perception of myself.
Yeah.
And like doing this work.
Of course.
I've made a kind of conscious effort the last few years to like, really be more open about this with people I know.
And it's important.
47:15
Yeah.
But thinking about her and like talking to her about it in the future, I'm like, you know, what would that look like?
Yeah, I mean, age appropriate levels of discussion, right?
I mean, your dad helps people feel safe in their body.
Your dad helps people feel pleasure.
47:30
Your dad is a healer, right?
And then slowly, depending on where she's at in her consciousness, you know, eventually fully sharing.
Yeah, and just like, you know, there's fear there about her own life and sexuality or sexual relationships.
47:49
In this world, exactly.
Fuck yeah, yeah, yeah.
Don't worry, she's got me, she's got you.
She's got lots of people in her corner.
She has a great community of Aloe parents and, you know, aunties and uncles that are, you know, yeah, there and creating good space, good energy.
48:09
Yeah, it's such a joy to witness and be a part of.
Yeah.
I mean, yeah, for the listeners.
We I had the massage, you came on the podcast, you invited me to a party at your house, and then I fell in love.
And and like the fourth person to like, find a serious relationship at one of these parties.
48:28
Oh my God, it was awesome.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I've talked about Cooper on the podcast before, so I I've got consent to you.
His his name, which I feel really grateful for.
You got to ask.
Yeah.
We just, like, immediately matched energies, which is, again, funny.
48:44
Five years ago, I wouldn't have said that word, but here we are.
And we just like, locked into each other.
And then you came up to both of us and just looked at us, pointed your fingers at each one of us and said yes, and then walked away.
Yeah, I remember that moment.
And here we are four years later, still love that guy.
49:03
He was over last night, you know, like, and just so much integration into your shared community.
So I've seen how much your community cares for you and this child in ways that, you know, when I'm working with different parents and speaking to different people on the podcast, they talk about the significant labor that parenting takes and how much of a drain it can be on the couple that has the child, right.
49:26
But I'm in Group chats with you where people are like, I'm happy to babysit, I'll come over here, I'll be over at this time.
Oh, got it.
And like you have built family.
Yes, thank you.
Yeah.
I mean, that's, you know, we couldn't do it without community.
No one can.
49:42
News flash.
Yeah.
Soccer.
We don't exist in isolation.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Everyone's been so amazing to help out when we've needed it.
And yeah, you know, modern anarchy, like breakdown, these systems that we've been so indoctrinated with about like single family homes and monogamy and whatever parenting on your own.
50:07
And it's all such a trap.
Some grateful for you.
And like the other people around us who are down to, like, just chip away at these things in whatever ways feel possible to like make a better, more, you know, sustainable and like, functional heart, open community world, you know, Yeah.
50:32
Yeah, yeah, that's a lifelong.
Oh yeah, there's a.
Lot of things in the way of it, you know.
Yeah, I feel really lucky.
Yeah, you are.
That's when, I mean, as a therapist, one of the biggest gifts and privileges in life is the quality of your relationships, hands down.
50:49
It will make your concept of self, your concept of reality, the safety that you feel in the world.
And so, yeah, to be loved, to be cared forward, to have people that have your back.
I mean that there is no price that you could put on that level of experience.
Yeah, and parenting is really isolating.
Oh yeah, just by itself.
51:04
And then, you know, talking about like your job or like health insurance and, and just like suck.
Yeah, just it's.
So we need to learn how to communicate and share and.
Right.
Totally.
Ask for help which is goes into the receiving thing again, like back to the massage.
51:22
Like it's personally really hard for me to ask for help.
It's hard for me to receive and noticing that way more as a parent who has to ask for help.
Has to, yeah.
And I think, yeah, it's something I think we could all be better at.
51:41
Which I think I remember you naming at your birthday, there was a conversation where all the community came together before the baby had came and you had named that.
That was maybe a growth edge for you.
And it was really beautiful to be a part of that conversation.
And people chimed in and it was like, no, we'll also offer to help.
Yeah, yeah.
51:57
Which is come true in some way, Yeah, and not others, but you.
Know whatever?
Yeah.
Yeah, it's, yeah.
It's been a, it's been a wild, you know, recalibration of self and community and place in the world and place in the city and yeah.
52:17
Right.
And so I'm holding multiple factors for you because I've I've had people on the podcast who are parents and non monogamous and the weight that that brings because of just the embrace of sexual freedom and pleasure is a part of that, right?
And so right for you to be a parent who's non monogamous and also as ex worker right now, that's a whole other, you know, adding another piece to.
52:42
And it's interesting when you think if we had like a pelvic floor therapist, I'm sure they'd be confident to say that to their child.
Like this is who I am and what I do.
But the second it comes into a pleasure space, like you do very similar work, but pleasure focused, that's where the whole society just gets really tight about all of it because and most of the society is non monogamous in the sense that monogamy originally means that you'd have one person for the rest of your life.
53:09
Now, in our current cultural context, that's not how we use the word language evolves blah, blah, blah.
But like it used to meant one person for life.
So the amount of people that have well, the amount of people that cheat, we could start there, but just the amount of people that even like have an experience, break up, do another one, get a divorce, whatever.
53:27
So much of our society is non monogamous in that sense, but when it comes to saying I'm actively choosing this because it's pleasurable and what I want to build, the whole society gets really tired about that pleasure word.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
And you know what?
53:43
Since having a baby, I I, I've realized like, oh, it's all just pleasure.
Oh yeah.
They just want pleasure, you know, eating, being hugged, playing.
Right, right, whatever.
Laughing.
Right.
And it just a lot of that stays the same as we grow into older bodies, it like deepens and expands, but it's the same shit.
54:07
We all just want pleasure and love.
And just watching my daughter, like seek that, it's been so illuminating to me.
I'm just.
Like, right.
Yeah.
Why the shame?
Why the like, stickiness around adult pleasure?
54:23
Yeah, around sex.
Right.
Specifically, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I, I know some of the answers, some of the wise, but like it's just like, look at your kids, they're just wanting to play.
And once you discover that this part of your body or parts of your body or your whole body actually can be pleasurable, some reason.
54:46
Right.
Yeah.
Even some parents who have kids that have penises, right?
Even in just changing a diaper, they can get an erection.
And a lot of parents kind of freak out.
They're like, Oh my God.
Oh my God, what do I do with this?
It's like your child's just responding to the pleasure of the experience of the diaper.
55:01
It's not a sexual experience.
They're just truly responding to the pleasure of the moment.
But our society is so phobic around all of it that yeah, our chest is so tight about any sort of conversation when really it's just people come in together to enjoy their bodies.
55:18
Like, why does that have to be such A and I know we could go into the the Puritans, yeah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
You know, that's another podcast, you know, like it's just kind of sad when you really think about the joy, the the beauty, the simplicity, the sacredness of it all that is just being lost.
55:35
And and then and the trauma, the trauma that occurs.
Not not to say that I'm responsible for the trauma that occurred to me, right?
And also there's a level of grooming that happened from where I came from that needs to be acknowledged and Christian culture and purity culture, right?
55:51
So if we could undo with any of that and put people into more empowering places, the ability to communicate, say their no, say their yes, I think that is a better world for all of us, hands down.
Yeah, we're in this culture of like, there's sex everywhere and yet we're not supposed to want it or, like, express it.
56:13
And it's a head fuck, you know, like, you know, you don't know what to do with it, especially as a teenager, Like, and that sets such a foundation for how you grow into your own body and sexuality.
And it's like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do.
I'm taught this is wrong or someone abused me.
56:31
So it feels weird when I get turned on now or whatever it is.
And it's just like, yeah, it's confusing.
And yeah.
And that's speaking from someone who has like, a lot of shame around sex, like trying to work through that continuously.
56:48
I'm, I'm a 41 year old man and you know, there's still like shame all the time.
Yeah, well, I mean, it's not safe.
Yeah, right, right.
Yeah.
You know, we just don't live in that world yet.
57:03
It's not safe on a professional level, right?
It's not necessarily safe on the actual level outside.
I've talked about it multiple times on the podcast.
How like I can go into a sex party, be naked, fucking multiple people and no one touches me, but I God forbid I go to a bar with jeans on and a normal fucking outfit and I get groped and it's like, sure, yeah, like notice how, and I guess, you know, not all play parties are perfect, blah, blah, blah.
57:34
You know, it's not a monolith, no rose colored glasses.
But notice how when we embrace the sexuality and we look at it and we really talk about consent, there is less occurrences of harm than in the restriction where people are reaching and grabbing and all these other things.
57:51
Like I just.
Oh yeah, like I just.
Yeah, and it's it, you know, it's like let's, you know, destigmatize, like nudity Also, you know, it really takes, you know, you see someone just walking around naked for like a minute.
58:07
You're like, OK.
Right in a naked bike ride.
Yeah, you know, I mean, and there's so many like examples of that or just like, you know, let's like take the shame out of this or even the mystique.
Like, you know, it's just, it's our bodies.
That.
Can be powerfully pleasurable but also just like, piss and shit and like puke some you know.
58:28
Totally yeah is having a baby is a messy yeah, I have done it but.
Bodies are awesome, but you know, well, yeah, there's so much around this side.
Yeah, no, totally, totally.
It's just, it's the whole human condition.
58:43
I mean, yeah, people are tight about these.
Yeah, very different areas.
Yeah.
I mean, I really, I dream of a world where people have less shame.
And in that world, I'd be so curious what we're attracted to, you know, because when you think about back in the day when ankles were forbidden and then you would flash an ankle and someone could get horny by it, like we, that doesn't happen for me now.
59:06
And in other cultures it might because there are still cultures where, you know, you're in full cover of your body in different ways.
So yeah, if we lived in a world where more nudity and these other things were acceptable, I'd be curious what sort of fantasies, you know, like what cravings would we have?
Yeah, that's a good question.
59:21
That's my biggest research question.
Yeah, just got to stay alive 50 years and then maybe will happen.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, man, I, I might, my guess is that it would be much more community focused.
That's my guess, man.
Sure That we'd just be much more caring.
It would be less complex, you know, And then in that safety, we have even more creativity to play like.
59:42
I don't think that like, you know, power and domination scenes would ever go away and that because it's just fun to play with power.
Like we enjoy that exchange.
I think that the containers around it, the conversations, the care, all of that would just be so much better.
59:59
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, We had also talked a little bit about CIS men and their experience, and you had named that there's not enough experiences and places where men can cry and be in their full bodies.
I know for myself that I was not attracted to men who cry.
1:00:15
Yeah, that's the real shit.
Because sometimes women are like, oh, men, men.
I'm like, have you looked in the mirror and like, the patriarchy is impacting who you're attracted to?
Girly like, which was totally me.
And and that's kind of what I'm getting at, these, like, unfair expectations.
Obviously they're there for women, but like, also for men.
1:00:32
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, and just like, earning more money, being really strong and, like, providing this and, like, fucking for hours.
Yeah.
Which hard all the time.
I think these are just, yeah, I don't know, it gets into like porn culture, dating apps where where you it's just like a snapshot of, you know, presentation of some.
1:00:59
It's like a flattened image of, of a 3D being, you know, and it's like feels commodified feels, you know, it gets into it gets into homophobia.
It gets into like, yeah.
And I just, it makes me sad and mad and frustrated because let me pause, sorry.
1:01:19
Yeah.
No, it's OK.
Take your time.
I'm like wanting to like say something eloquent and I'm just like stuck in the.
Yeah.
In like the conflict of the whole thing.
Yeah, of how horrible it is.
Yeah.
Yeah, of the I, I'm, correct me if I'm wrong, the overlay of the whole system and how strong it is and how much it impacts every single one of us.
1:01:46
And we're also trying to get out of it.
But it's also in the unconscious, both in the men, the women of all, every gender.
It's just living and breathing every single day.
And the archetypes, the things we expect.
And there's no easy one person to point that finger at, right?
1:02:03
Yeah, we're, we're disconnected from our bodies.
We're disconnected from the land.
We are increasingly isolated.
We are, you know, are trapped in our jobs and if you're lucky, you have health insurance, but you're trapped in that, you know, there's all these traps.
1:02:25
And I think men for, as you're saying, variety of reasons, don't have the outlets necessarily to maybe express these things or even know they're happening, You know, because I think because of shame, because of isolation.
1:02:45
And I think that just feeds into like a violence, people feeling stuck or lost or radicalized in the wrong ways to not know.
I don't know how to act, how to be a person, how to listen, how to express their feelings, how to, I don't know.
1:03:07
It's, it's capitalism too.
It's just the thing that keeps coming up in my head.
It's just like the money thing.
How much of an addiction and a disease and a like just a horrific system it is.
And when I think capitalism, I think men.
1:03:24
Yeah, well, I mean they are at the top of it, so.
Yeah.
Just taking time to hold space for this because this is something that we talked about in the previous episode.
And you are a man and I've been I I date men.
I love men.
1:03:40
I've also been raped by men, right?
Like they're like, how do we hold this full conversation of dreaming of another world and understanding that there's so much liberation for all of us, especially men.
Some people, I feel like in their healing journey, kind of get stuck, stuck at this place of like, fuck all men, They're horrible.
1:03:56
I don't want to talk to any of them.
And like when I have clients who are feeling that way, I don't mean to like, I don't want to discredit that.
Like you've had horrible experiences, all these other things.
That's so true.
And also we got to get to a place of understanding how the systems are impacting all of us.
And So what does it mean to to do that internalized work like I had to do in terms of being unattracted to men who cry and especially at the time, being unattracted to bisexual men because, you know, that's the world I'm growing up.
1:04:22
And now I'm like, please give me a bisexual man who cries.
Like that's the hottest thing I can.
Like, yes, he's in touch with his freedom, his emotions.
Wow.
But that just wasn't where I was at because I am also in the system.
You're also in the system.
The listeners are also in the system.
1:04:38
So I know as you're speaking, there's not this like clear thread line of like, what are we talking about?
But I also know that these are some of the many sessions I have with my clients where they're like, what the fuck is this?
What?
What am I?
What is what?
How am I supposed to just keep what?
1:04:54
Why like?
Right.
And thank you for bringing this up.
Like it, it taps into the like idea of like you can't, you know, cancelling people or like writing people off or shipping them off to a prison or whatever that or prison mindset, you know, carceral mindset, you know, there's no change or healing without love, acceptance, you know, if we keep, you know, raging against men, which is valid also like.
1:05:23
Accountability, but and.
Yes, hold yourself accountable and like be angry and like, yes, but like, also there has to be room for healing and movement processing and yeah, otherwise, you know, we're going to keep separating.
1:05:39
Polarization is going to keep separating.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I think I always say that we can be harmed in relationships, and we are healed in relationships, right?
So these pain points that you've had with men that I've had with men, right.
1:05:57
Here's a moment where I'm on the table saying I'm going to trust this guy.
Yeah.
And I was healed in that moment.
And the subsequent moments of integration that happened afterwards and are currently happening right now.
Yeah, Right.
All psychedelic journeys need integration so the healing will come through relationships.
1:06:17
So when you have had those heart hurtful experiences with men, you know, like someone new gets to bring that template into your life.
I think in other episodes I share too that I think Cooper was like one of the first people to say thank you.
When I said that I had a boundary in sex where I was like, oh I want this but not that.
1:06:36
And he said thank you.
The listeners can't see 'cause it's audio only.
Like I'm dropping my jaw just like what a big crack open that was in my psyche to have a male instead of trying to push, push, push, push, push to get more out of me.
Say thank you for telling me no, that we're going to stop right here.
1:06:52
And that again, I meet Cooper through you.
Here I am like I've always joked that I got here by following my pussy.
Yes, like I straight up went to you and met him.
Here I am like, just like, yeah, crazy.
But.
Like, no is an opportunity, you know, it creates an opportunity and it's beautiful.
1:07:10
Totally, Yeah.
Totally, Yeah.
And again, I just like the the the strength, the spark of bravery and strength that these women have to come see me and like, be open and vulnerable on the table to retrain their relationships to themselves or their surroundings.
Like that's awesome.
1:07:27
Yeah, Hell yeah.
Absolutely.
I'm.
So impressed and in awe.
Yeah, I'm curious, Liam, what would you say to yourself nine years ago when you're first starting this work?
You don't, you know, you're just just starting.
1:07:45
What words of advice and wisdom do you have for your younger self?
Slow down.
Yeah, slow down.
Asking yourself why you're doing this.
Who's this for?
1:08:01
Yeah.
Do you feel ready to hold a lot of stuff for people?
Yeah, hold this space.
It's like really charged and vulnerable space and yeah, I think that's that's good.
1:08:19
And those are questions you'll ask for a lifetime.
Yeah.
Any good practitioner should be asking those questions for a lifetime.
Who's this for?
Am I in the right headspace?
What more learning do I need to do?
Where does my ego need to be reined in?
Checked.
1:08:36
Yeah, Yeah.
It's been a wild ride.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
And you're still only just getting started.
Isn't that the fun part?
Yeah, always begin again, you know.
Yeah, yeah.
1:08:51
I think if I were to give myself some words of advice, when I think about, like, meeting you five years ago is like, you're on the right path, girl.
Yeah.
You're having these cravings.
You're having these desires.
Follow them.
Your gut said it was a good idea to meet with this person.
1:09:09
Do it.
Yeah.
You know, Yeah.
Your God then said it was a good idea to start a podcast.
Do it.
Like, trust yourself.
Trust yourself, Create the world you want.
Like create what you want.
You can do it.
Yeah.
1:09:24
I have a very unique, amazing life, as do you, as do so many people and I, you know, But I know there are a lot of people feeling stuck and trapped in the whole shtick of it all.
Yeah.
Because that's what you've been told to do, and you don't have to do it that way.
1:09:42
Right.
This is all created and we're creating it everyday.
The future is created in the present, right?
You know in succession and like we can you just do it.
As I was walking with Cooper this morning, though, I was just like.
Sometimes waking up from the Matrix is pretty painful, though.
1:09:58
I don't know.
It's.
Like it was kind of cool.
It was terrifying.
It was kind of.
Cool when I actually didn't know all.
The amount of times I say, man, I wish I just had like I was ACPA or a fucking, I don't know, set up and just like I had the thing, I had the house.
1:10:15
Everything was like in order, no?
But then they have the existential midlife crisis at 50 once they realize that they got the money they always dreamed of, and it's still not fulfilling.
You know, I don't know if I want that psychosis that comes at that midlife point where you're like, wow, I've reached it all and this is zit.
1:10:33
Oh, Quad.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because I'll pass on that.
Yeah.
What is money?
You know, like, what is it?
It's nothing.
We made that up.
Energy.
There you go.
Five years back.
Wow, what a trip.
What a trip.
1:10:50
Yeah, it's really good to, you know, be back in in this space and talk with you five years later.
Yeah.
Crazy feels like way longer.
I know.
Well, a lot of changes in that time.
Yeah, Yeah.
Well, yeah.
1:11:07
Before we come to our closing question, I want to check in and see if there's anything else that you want to share with the listeners.
I guess for anyone who's curious about this experience or this work or yourself or your body, follow your gut.
1:11:29
Say yes if it feels right, you know, and you'll know if it doesn't, right?
And more broadly, which just gets it, like, listen to your body, listen to your body, take a breath, slow down and it will guide you.
1:11:47
So much wisdom there.
Absolutely.
OK, Liam, I'm going to invite both of us to take a nice deep breath again.
So the last question that I ask everyone on the show is what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?
1:12:10
Well, what's coming up is like feeling lonely.
Yeah.
Not that I want loneliness to be normalized, right, Of course.
But I want everyone to know that we're all lonely.
Yeah, I think.
Oh, yeah.
In some way, yeah.
1:12:26
Regardless of the community we have, there's some yearning still because of the systems we're under and how we're kept apart.
And you're not alone.
And wanting more.
Right.
Yeah, from your community, from yourself, from your body, from your partner, whatever.
1:12:45
I think, I think it's there.
What a curious response.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
It's so important.
I mean, of course, so many people are feeling lonely, right?
I mean, our society does not support connection.
I think if it did, we would unionize and we wouldn't have billionaires.
1:13:03
That's my opinion.
So I think that it profits off of all of us not really connecting because.
Separation again, yeah.
Separation until collapse.
I know there's power in numbers.
If all of us stopped the whole, it would stop, right?
But can we all get all of us together on one page to move like that?
1:13:20
That's that's that's the work.
But the isolation that we feel when you go into a job where you can't even express that you feel lonely, Ray, of course that's going to amplify all of this.
Or in a society that is so touch starved, especially men often right touch starve, cuddle, starve like just the isolation that that can create.
1:13:42
And one of my post it notes on the wall has the four different existential Givens, which are death, existence, isolation and meaning.
And the isolation 1 is just that even if you and I tried to spend the rest of our life explaining how we feel to one another, we still can't.
1:14:00
Because I will only ever have my words to share it through and you will only have your words and brain to understand it.
And you'll never get all the thoughts I have up here.
So that can feel deeply isolating you as a parent.
I imagine there are many hours where you're with your little daughter just feeling super lonely because she has a baby, she can't connect with you, and you're just doing all that work, maybe while your wife is sleeping.
1:14:22
Finally, you know, like all these experiences that you're having to move through, of course, of course you feel lonely.
I think my second part of that that question is normalizing sex work.
Yeah, of course.
It serves A vital purpose.
It's empowering.
1:14:38
It helps with isolation.
It helps, you know, reduce isolation, feelings, touch.
And I hope so dearly that it becomes more normalized and legalized and whatever.
Yeah, benefits everyone.
1:14:55
I hope so too.
Other parts in the world are doing it.
And it's a sex is a beautiful, connective, creative experience.
Why would we stop that?
Yeah, having amazing strong boundaries with it.
Fuck yeah.
But why would we stop that?
1:15:10
And then that deeper piece, of course, that when we legalize things, we can often have more regulation and we can which, good or bad, Wow, anarchist side.
Great, great whole other podcast.
But at least the ability that you know, if you are a sex worker, the ability to report even a client that mistreats you right now, you can't come to any authority or community base anything without then fearing that you could get in trouble for naming that.
1:15:35
So just the risk that it puts even the sex worker in when we don't have this legal, I mean that.
Talk about isolation.
Yeah, Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Yeah, Yeah.
Who do you talk to that gets it right?
Yeah, probably.
Not isolated in this work that I do all the time, you know.
1:15:51
Yeah.
I have another answer to your question, which is go for it.
Boundaries, being able to express your boundaries, yeah, or your wants even.
Yeah.
You know, being able to feel comfortable enough to share that, to be asked that.
Yeah.
1:16:06
And feeling like you know what they are, you know your body well enough, you know your experiences that you can express that, you can even articulate it.
Yeah.
And that's a lifelong practice of that one for sure.
And they change.
Oh, yeah.
1:16:22
You know, Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, OK, just what I thought.
I had it figured out.
I knew myself.
Gosh, always becoming and always becoming.
Yes, yes.
Well, Liam, it was such a joy to have you on the show again.
Thank you for joining me today.
Thank you, Doctor Nicole.
I know, I know.
1:16:38
Thank you.
It's been a joy.
Thank you for your friendship and your wisdom and your beautiful mind.
Yeah, thanks for feeding me on all the days I was in grad school and I was working too hard.
Such a joy.
1:16:54
Well, I'm sure all the listeners would love to know how can they work with you?
How can they learn more about you?
Yeah, I have a website, thesensualmassage.org.
That's the best way.
You can also use that Google thing.
1:17:10
Yeah, that's how I tend.
To pop up in Chicago.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do people fly to you?
I get people from out of town, often people visiting the big city for the weekend or whatever.
Yeah, totally.
You know people.
1:17:25
From all over.
We'll have that LinkedIn, the show notes below so that your listeners can go find it.
And many have over the years.
I've had a handful of listeners say like, hey, I followed this.
So I went and saw Liam like this whole thing.
It's so beautiful to see that networking.
1:17:41
Yeah, thank you for helping me not exist in isolation.
Oh yeah, and continuing to create community that, you know, reverberates in different ways.
Such a joy, such a joy.
Thank you Liam.
Dear listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Modern Anarchy.
1:18:01
Thank you for sharing this episode with your friends, with your lovers, with your community.
Truly, it means so much to me and I am so grateful that you are here.
If you are wanting to release jealousy in your non monogamous dynamics and step into a conversion and pleasure filled connection, you can read my book The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide for free on my website.
1:18:29
There you will also find so many other free resources, including worksheets on how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non monogamous dynamics and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure filled sex and relationships.
1:18:53
So head on over to modernanarchypodcast.com to find all of those free resources and I look forward to seeing you next week.
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