277. Do Educated Women Choose Polyamory? - Dr. Elisabeth Sheff

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Dr. Eli. Join us for our conversation about the contemporary research on non-monogamy. Together we talk about infidelity stats, when the threesome doesn't live up to reality, and creatively designing your non-monogamy. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I'm so excited that you are here to learn more about polyamory, non-monogamy, and all things pleasure liberation.

My name is Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, author of The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and The First Study on Relationship Anarchy, and I teach students from around the world how to craft pleasurable sex lives and non-monogamous relationships.

Dear listener Do educated women choose polyamory? Ooh. Ooh. Oh, this is a cheeky title. This is cheeky, right? What do you think, dear listener? What do you think the answer is? Okay. Oh, Dr. Eli and I are gonna talk about it. You're gonna explore, you're gonna learn more, and I promise you're gonna enjoy it, right?

And one of the big things we get into is mono/poly dynamics. Okay? So that's also an interesting piece. Um, maybe also gives a little bit of answer to the question. Mono/poly. I don't know. You'll see. Dr. Eli has their own take on what they wanna practice. I've got my own take. And we also get into the research on how education and privilege and access to resources under capitalism shifts what we see in the relational choices and orientations that people practice.

And so I'm confident you're gonna learn something. I'm holding onto so much wisdom from this episode, so I'm confident you're gonna really enjoy today's conversation with Dr. Eli. And again, dear listener, I'm so grateful that you are here. All right. Dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and all of my free worksheets and resources and dissertations and my e-book, all of it for free at modernanarchypodcast.com.

Linked in the show notes below. That is also where you will learn all about my upcoming non-monogamy group. Y'all, it starts the last week of August, and wow. I'm so excited to be welcoming all of you. It is such a joy for those of you who have joined. Those of you who have joined in the past, you know what this time feels like, when you're all giddy to start school again, and it's really exciting.

And, uh, I'm so excited to welcome you all. And you can sign up below and learn more about my non-monogamy program starting up the last week of August. Ah, so excited to see you all. And I also wanna say a big thank you to my Patreon community. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you with a very, very full heart to all of my Patreon supporters.

You have been supporting me and the show and all this educational free resources that I create for the last five years. So thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And with that, dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love, and let's tune in to today's episode

Dear listener, there's a space already waiting for you where you are invited to let go of every old script about sex and relationships and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure, empowerment, and deep alignment. I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together, we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real transformation possible. And I'll be right there with you, guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure and visit modernanarchypodcast.com/pleasurepractice to apply.

And so the first question that I love to ask each guest on the show is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:05:16] Dr. Eli: My name is Dr. Elizabeth Sheff. I try to go by Dr. Eli even though- Mm ... that feels a little awkward to me, branding and

[00:05:24] Dr. Nicole: all. Mm, sure. I hear you.

[00:05:26] Dr. Eli: Um, I'm a sociologist. That's, my doctorate is in sociology.

I'm a certified sexuality educator. I'm a relationship coach and researcher and author and expert witness. I testify in court on behalf of families of sex and gender minorities and kinksters whose kinky sex has gone wrong. I am a speaker. I do continuing education. I'm a mom.

[00:06:01] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:06:02] Dr. Eli: And I'm a pet sitter.

[00:06:04] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:06:05] Dr. Eli: I don't have a pet of my own, but I love- I travel too much for that, but I love taking care of other people's pets.

[00:06:12] Dr. Nicole: Well, Fat Cat is over here. She's unruly, but-

[00:06:15] Dr. Eli: Awesome ...

[00:06:16] Dr. Nicole: yeah, if that's your kinda thing. Well, it's such a joy to have you on the podcast again today. Thank you for joining us.

[00:06:24] Dr. Eli: Thanks so much for having me.

[00:06:25] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. For the listener who's tuning in who hasn't heard your episode from way back, we talked a lot about kink and your work, um, and advocacy and legal work.

So any of the listeners who wanna dive into some of the crazy stories of things that you've seen and the very important work that you're doing, that is definitely in the catalog. And so for today, I'm, I'm curious about your journey with pleasure. How it's evolved over the years. Where are you at today with it?

I'd love to hear your story with pleasure.

[00:07:01] Dr. Eli: You know, I got really lucky- Mm ... I would say, with pleasure when I was growing up, that my mom was excommunicated from the Catholic Church.

[00:07:12] Dr. Nicole: Oh, shit.

[00:07:14] Dr. Eli: And that, I think, was a very positive thing in my life. It, I, it was really painful for her.

[00:07:21] Dr. Nicole: I can imagine, yeah.

[00:07:21] Dr. Eli: But the Catholic Church is not that big on anyone's pleasure, and especially not women.

Yeah. Women are the root of evil for the Catholic Church, and especially women's sexuality is very negative for the Catholic Church. So when my mother was excommunicated, she really shed a lot of those kind of negative- aspects, I guess- Mm ... of, you know, looking down on pleasure, looking down on women, looking down on women's bodies, and, um, really put a lot of effort into empowering my sister and I to feel good about ourselves no matter what form or shape-

[00:08:13] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm

[00:08:14] Dr. Eli: that took. It's something I really appreciate about my-

[00:08:17] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:08:17] Dr. Eli: so I didn't get a lot of the negative messages of your body is bad, or don't touch yourself, or, you know, sexuality is wrong. Mm-hmm. To the point that when I realized I was bi, I didn't even need to really come out.

[00:08:37] Dr. Nicole: I love that.

[00:08:37] Dr. Eli: You know, it was just like, be who you wanna be.

[00:08:40] Dr. Nicole: Amazing.

[00:08:41] Dr. Eli: And no problem. No. So I've always taken that forward, I guess, that pleasure is good. Pleasure is fine. Pleasure is a positive thing in life.

[00:08:59] Dr. Nicole: That's great. Sorry for your mom's loss, but wow. Wow. Yeah,

[00:09:05] Dr. Eli: yeah.

[00:09:05] Dr. Nicole: Wow.

[00:09:05] Dr. Eli: Yay.

[00:09:06] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly.

[00:09:08] Dr. Eli: Especially I'm a Gen X-er, and she's a baby boomer. Mm.

[00:09:11] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:09:12] Dr. Eli: So the, the baby boomers, so they were the first, not the, they were the first of the second wave of feminists- Mm-hmm

the baby boomers.

[00:09:20] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:21] Dr. Eli: So she was definitely, is still a feminist and was a second wave feminist. Mm-hmm. Um, and the feminists did a lot- Yeah ... to try to empower women to take control of our bodies. So- Mm.

[00:09:33] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:09:34] Dr. Eli: I guess for me, the more I think about it, pleasure is linked with gender in my mind- Mm ... for me specifically.

Oh, yeah. Not so much for everyone, but pleasure feels like a gendered rebellion-

[00:09:52] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:09:53] Dr. Eli: for me.

[00:09:54] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I'd love to hear more about that. How do you feel gender plays into your rebellion here with pleasure?

[00:10:01] Dr. Eli: That women aren't supposed to feel good in their bodies. Mm-hmm. We're supposed to be suspicious of our bodies.

Our bodies are supposed to be the enemy, and we're not supposed to give in to them either in sexual pleasure or with food. Mm. A lot, I think, of- Yeah ... I take a lot of, I enjoy food quite a bit. Totally. I like eating. I like food. I really enjoy-

[00:10:32] Dr. Nicole: Yep ...

[00:10:33] Dr. Eli: good food and good wine and- Yeah ... take a lot of pleasure from consuming things, yummy things, and women are definitely not supposed to give in to that.

We are supposed to be small and skinny and take up as little space as possible and always be tailing, tailoring ourselves to the male gaze. And part of my gendered rebellion is fuck that.

[00:11:02] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:11:03] Dr. Eli: I'm, I take up space. Good. And I could give two shits about the male gaze.

[00:11:09] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:11:10] Dr. Eli: Being a lesbian really helps with that too.

[00:11:11] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:13] Dr. Eli: That

[00:11:13] Dr. Nicole: I- Mm-hmm ...

[00:11:14] Dr. Eli: have never been dedicated to shaping myself- For the male gaze.

[00:11:21] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Good. Thank you. Thank you for being here- Mm-hmm ... on this female show of all things. Hello. Yay. Yeah, right? Oh, man. Yeah, it's so essential. I mean, it's, yeah, no pleasure, the Madonna and the whore complex are right there, right?

You're a mom- Absolutely ... you don't do this. Yet, yet, yet, let's put you on the TV in advertisements and all the ways we want you to look, 'cause please buy our products, but don't you dare actually have pleasure, right? Like-

[00:11:51] Dr. Eli: Right ...

[00:11:52] Dr. Nicole: oh, the hypocrisy, it hurts. The cognitive dissonance.

[00:11:56] Dr. Eli: Yes, be for someone else's pleasure, not your own.

And screw that. I'm for my own pleasure.

[00:12:04] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Thank you.

[00:12:05] Dr. Eli: And I suggest everybody be for their own pleasure, and we can br- bring pleasure to each other. Let's share pleasure. Yay.

[00:12:11] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And you're well-known within the field. You know, since we've recorded I've seen your name on books and so many other things out there.

And you're well-known within the polyamorous field, and I can only imagine that that upbringing with pleasure made it much easier to step into expansive relating without shame or g- I mean, there's always shame, Gil. Let's, let's be real here. We're a lifelong process. But maybe gave a little bit more foundation to step into this and really, like, step into that space and be well-known and, 'cause part of being public, right, and something that I'm always working with too, and I'm sure you imagine, uh, have a similar experience, is when your name's out there with The Polyamorous Next Door, people are looking at you differently.

[00:13:00] Dr. Eli: Absolutely. Absolutely. So y-

[00:13:03] Dr. Nicole: yeah, tell me about how you stepped into polyamory with that beginning of pleasure.

[00:13:10] Dr. Eli: Um, actually, ironically for me, beginning to explore polyamory wasn't about pleasure. Mm-hmm. It was about fear-

[00:13:18] Dr. Nicole: Ah ...

[00:13:19] Dr. Eli: that I intellectualize things that frighten me, and I had a partner who wanted to be polyamorous.

And we didn't have the word yet. It was the early '90s.

[00:13:30] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:13:31] Dr. Eli: Uh, 1990s. Yeah.

[00:13:33] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:13:33] Dr. Eli: Um, and the word existed, but we just hadn't heard it. But he was saying that he wanted to be non-monogamous. He never wanted to be monogamous and he never wanted to get married, but he wanted a serious and permanent relationship.

[00:13:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:53] Dr. Eli: And I was just like- ... I don't see how those things go together. Yep. You know, whatever, you freak.

[00:13:59] Dr. Nicole: Yep. Yep, yep.

[00:14:01] Dr. Eli: I don't- Been there. But espe- he was gonna be my fleeting boy toy. For me, real relationships have always been with women, and he was gonna be kind of a disposable fling until I got back to real relationships with women.

[00:14:19] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:19] Dr. Eli: So when I fell in love with him, I was like- Hmm ... "Wait a minute. Now I do care that you don't wanna be monogamous, and I do care that you never wanna get married." And I had never planned out. You know how some little girls are very marriage-focused as children- Yeah ... they're planning out, like, Barbie's dream wedding.

I had never done that, but it, it had, I had taken in the kind of mono-centrism-

[00:14:49] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:14:49] Dr. Eli: of society that, "Oh, yes, this is the way compulsory monogamy says you should be. Like, a real relationship is monogamous and married, especially when it's to a dude." And I'm like, "Well, here I've got this dude now. Who knows?"

[00:15:05] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:15:06] Dr. Eli: So when I heard that he never wanted to be monogamous or get married, I heard that as, what turns out I'm a, I'm a deeply monogamous person, ironically. I heard that as, "You're too fat."

[00:15:21] Dr. Nicole: Oh, God. "

[00:15:21] Dr. Eli: You're bad in bed. You're not good enough." And that's not at all what he meant, but I think as many monogamous people, when we hear our partner wants others, we think it must be a lack- Yeah

on our part. There must be something missing in us that the partner needs someone else. And he was like, "No, no, no, that's not at all what I mean." But I couldn't really wrap my head around it being any other way, so when I heard about the existence of polyamory and I heard the word, I was like, "Dude, we gotta check this out."

So my initial, I would say, three years of exposure to polyamorous thought and ideas was as what I think of as a civilian, not a researcher. I was just interested in it, like, how do you people do this- Yeah ... without feeling devastated all the time? Right, right. How does this go for you?

[00:16:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:16:24] Dr. Eli: And then by then I was in graduate school and taking, you know, classes on ethnography and things like that, so I thought, "Well, I'll just do this.

I'll dip my toe in and I'll do a couple interviews for this class I'm taking." Ah. And that just snowballed- It does. It could ... into being my dissertation- Yeah ... and then being longitudinal research. So ironically, it was talking to other people about their pleasure, but it was a source of significant pain in my life, and 30 years it's taken me to realize while I have a, a polyamorous brain, I can understand polyamory.

I really see how it works really well for some people, far better than any kind of exclusivity could ever work for them- In my heart, when I'm in love with someone, I am not interested in anyone else. I have no desire to be with other people. Even when the structure of my relationship says, "Go ahead, find other people.

Date other people," I do not. Mm-hmm. I have no interest-

[00:17:42] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:17:43] Dr. Eli: in multiple partners.

[00:17:45] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:46] Dr. Eli: But when I'm not in love, I can do polysexuality.

[00:17:49] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:17:51] Dr. Eli: I can... I am fine-

[00:17:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:17:54] Dr. Eli: you know, hooking up with someone, and they hook up with somebody else. That's totally fine. Sure. Go do your thing. I don't have territorialism or jealousy-

[00:18:03] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm

[00:18:04] Dr. Eli: in that way But I just don't want multiple partners. But as long as my partner meets my needs well, and treats me well, and gives me enough love and affection and sex and attention and all the things, then I can manage them being with other people. I don't get super uptight about it. It- I do get... It is hard on some level because I have to distance myself from them a little bit in order- Mm

to give them the space- Yeah. Yeah ... to go be with other people.

[00:18:43] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:44] Dr. Eli: And that part kinda sucks.

[00:18:46] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:18:46] Dr. Eli: But the, ironically, the benefits I get from the freedom of polyamory, like if my partner is off with other partners, I get to go do other things. Yeah. I don't- and those other things aren't necessarily being with other partners, but they are being much more independent than conventional monogamy-

[00:19:11] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm

would

[00:19:12] Dr. Eli: allow.

[00:19:13] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oh, we're gonna have so much to unpack with this. I'm so excited. Yeah, I mean, I can understand from the beginning when you're looking at all this, especially with your lens, I imagine there's a, a level of cross-cultural frame that you have that I don't necessarily have as much as a clinical psychology graduate, right?

We, we do talk about systems, but I feel like so much more of your lens is looking across so many different social systems and cultures in a way that the clinical psychology lens does not get deep enough into. And so I could see how this would be such a rich space because we know that across the world and historically, there have been so many different frames and ways of relating than this just one mono-normative.

Before we even get into the beauty of what you are doing in mixed orientation relationships, I would love if you could speak to that, 'cause you're nodding and the listeners can't see, but you're nodding deeply, and I would love for you to really, with your expertise, just like push that point in.

[00:20:17] Dr. Eli: Multiple partner relationships, and especially polygyny, which is one husband with multiple wives, we have seen that, and by we, I mean sociologists, historians, anthropologists, archeologists, political scientists, you know, the si- entire kind of segment of academia that looks at society and culture.

And that's who I mean by we, have seen multiple partner relationships as far more the norm than exclusive or monogamy, monogamous relationships have been across cultures and across time. Specifically in every society that we have seen, with the exception of a very few matriarchal societies which tend to be smaller and more isolated, we've seen wealthy and powerful men able to have multiple partners even when the assumption is everyone else should have a singular partner, that wealthy and powerful men have never really been held to that standard.

So that has also played out in, to some extent, in polyandry, which is one wife with multiple husbands, except that has been historically and, and culturally quite rare. Generally only happens when there's either not enough land to go around, and rather than cutting the land up into smaller and smaller chunks so that each son gets his own plot of land, a group of brothers or people, men who know each other- Mm-hmm

will all marry the same woman to keep the land in the family.

[00:22:21] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:21] Dr. Eli: And while on the surface that sounds like she's got a harem, what it plays out to in reality is she's got all the wifely duties for multiple men, and not just one, so it's not that great for her The alternative, too, is, or another way this expresses, it's not really an alternative, is when there aren't enough women to go around.

So for example, we're seeing a little bit of that in China right now. China for decades had a one-child policy and a preference for sons, which led to female infanticide, aborting female fetuses, adopting out girls.

[00:23:11] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:23:12] Dr. Eli: And so now there's this entire generation of lots of men without enough women to be their partners.

[00:23:22] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:23:23] Dr. Eli: So they deal with that in some cases by importing women from elsewhere and finding wives from other places outside of China. But some of them, especially if you don't have the resources to import a bride, some of them are doing wife sharing, where a woman will have up to three or four husbands, and that actually seems to be, three or four seems to be on some level a magic number.

[00:23:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:23:58] Dr. Eli: Among, for instance, Islamic folks or Muslims who have multiple wives, often that caps out around- Mm-hmm ... three or four because in Islam you have to be able to take care of your wives. You can't just add them willy-nilly. You h- there's a structure to it. You have to be able to care for, meet their needs of the adult women and the children.

So having 78 wives is quite unusual. Mm-hmm. Usually it tops out at, again, three or four. Mm-hmm. Which is ironic because in, in sociology research on contemporary polyamory in the United States- We see that it's quite uncommon for people to have more than, I would say three at the most- Yeah ... but often two-

[00:24:57] Dr. Nicole: Yes

[00:24:58] Dr. Eli: significant partners. If you're going to maintain two, if you're going to maintain multiple in-depth serious long-term relationships, very frequently two is the max that people can sustain for decades. And that's not always true. Some people seem to have an unlimited capacity for new partners. But that often means that some of them are not very serious partners, or they don't take up much time or resources, that they're more, in the polyamorous world they call them comets- Right

who come around periodically, and then they are off again on their journey, but they're not constantly there.

[00:25:47] Dr. Nicole: Right And then there's the relationship anarchist who forms the whole community, and it's like everybody's a partner and nobody all at the same time, but we're all together, you know? And, and, and that is a different container too.

Like you were saying, when even in that community space, limited time and energy. So that either means we're at a kitchen table dynamic. Dare I say more than a kitchen table dynamic. I don't think we have the words yet for that, but it is way interconnected. Because you're right, time and energy is so limited.

So you can have more partners than that, but it's either then, yeah, that comet partner being stretched out or so much more interconnection of it is actually community time. And part of what we all do is all come together to go rock climb, for example, in my constellation of people, right? Like, all the partners come in.

We all do that once a week, right? Totally cool. But right, there's a limitation, quite literally, to our finite resources of time and energy. But I, I feel so, I feel so delighted to have this space where I get to bring experts like you who can say that with such conviction. I don't n- like, in terms of the data, the research of what we've seen.

Because, you know, my younger self in grad school, I have a professor saying, "Non-monogamy never works," blah, blah, blah. You know, she sees it in her therapy office. She sees all the problems. You know, she's monogamous herself, you know. But, like, little me student going, "Well, is the professor right? I mean, I'm, I'm reading this book by Jessica Fern.

I've seen this other s- the ethical blah, blah, blah," you know? And so, like, when you get to come in here and say, "Hey, this is clear facts. These are the research. This is the histo- We just, this is just here." I don't even know how much that could have changed my life, just to have that beginning space, right?

Because I think so many people are like, "Is this bad? Is this, does this ever work?" Like, we know historically non-monogamy has existed. And, like, it's just such a powerful point to really stay there for a moment.

[00:27:48] Dr. Eli: And especially when you hear from a therapist or a counselor, "Oh, non-monogamy never works," if their only view of monogamy was high-conflict couples who were on the verge of divorce, who were, you know, in there trying to deal with alcoholism and intimate partner violence, they would think monogamy never works.

I, I think of it as the illusion of, let's say that you are a spinal cord surgeon- Mm ... and you specialize in people who have been, who have had high-level spinal cord injuries. Yeah. You are gonna say, "I would never, ever ride a motorcycle." Right. Like, under no circumstances. Motorcycles are just not safe. And that's the only exposure you ever have to motorcycles, is people who've had s- high-level spinal cord injuries.

Then of course you're gonna think motorcycles are not safe, because you are not seeing there is this entire kind of motorcycle rider who doesn't have a spinal cord injury- Right ... who wears a helmet, who is very safe, who rides y- on dry roads and not drunk, you know, rides sober, rides on dry roads, rides defensively, you know.

Like, but the spinal cord surgeon is never gonna see that rider. So of course they're gonna think all motorcyclists are bound for spinal cord injuries. So any time I hear that from a therapist or a counselor, I think, well, how many- Yeah ... outside of your office- Yeah ... how many non-monogamous relationships do you know about?

[00:29:32] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Exactly. The listeners couldn't see, but as you started to say that, I literally tipped over into my chair out of just so much pain. Because it's exactly that, right? Like, they only see that. And thank God one of my mentors, another professor, like, brought that insight to me, 'cause I was struggling with it so much at the time.

And he said exactly that. Like, again, this is all she sees in her office. And then what I would even bring in from my dissertation is, you know, I had people who were relationship anarchists that would say things in session, and then the therapist would respond in a certain way that was not supportive.

Really assuming that their relationship anarchy is an attachment problem. You know, like, we leave those sessions. We leave that. So that therapist doesn't even get to see any... You know, maybe she's had a couple, and then they go, "Well, this is not the therapist for me. It's just not a good fit," right? She doesn't even get to get that data.

Because when you come in with such a quite literally mono-normative problematic bias, people are gonna start self-selecting out of your office, dude, and be like, "I don't wanna be in that container." And then now we could get into the political levels of the institutions and the power that that gives, and the people that have, have been enrolled in those programs.

I talked about my student loan debt before this. Like, just the levels of system of power that get to be in that seat to make that statement and have such a lack of awareness. I always talk on the podcast how homosexuality was in the DSM. Talk about being a lesbian, that shit was in there for years. Let alone kink.

But, like, g- homosexuality. I had professors in, who were teaching me who were literally like, "I was gay when I first was doing my internship, and I couldn't tell my other, you know, classmates or any of my supervisors, 'cause I could get kicked out of the program 'cause I was gay." You know, he's- he came out of retirement to teach one of the courses.

But, like, that's how close we're talking to this system being fucked up. You know, like-

[00:31:19] Dr. Eli: Absolutely ... there's

[00:31:20] Dr. Nicole: so much rage. Ugh. So thank you for being here.

[00:31:26] Dr. Eli: My pleasure.

[00:31:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:28] Dr. Eli: Happy to have this discussion.

[00:31:29] Dr. Nicole: Totally. And so when we begin from that frame, right, a lot of the relationship anarchy frame that I re- really love and wanna bring to the world is this understanding that we all have multiple relationships.

What if we start there?

[00:31:45] Dr. Eli: I think that is such a good point, and that's super accurate. Mm-hmm. Not only do we have multiple, I mean, if we're lucky-

[00:31:53] Dr. Nicole: Right ...

[00:31:53] Dr. Eli: we have multiple emotionally invested, supportive, caring-

[00:31:59] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:31:59] Dr. Eli: relationships. And it's only when you say, oh, sex makes things either important, the presence of sex makes it important, or the absence of sex makes it unimportant.

[00:32:11] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:12] Dr. Eli: That, that, that distinction, I think, is really false for a lot of people, especially aromantic or asexual people. But even allosexuals who have friendships and other relationships that are very important to us. And then when we think about serial monogamy-

[00:32:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:32:35] Dr. Eli: how many people do not practice monogamy in the traditional sense of you find someone, two very young people who are both virgins, and what counts as a virgin-

is its own thing- Uh-huh ... but we'll let that be there for just a second. Mm-hmm. Virgins couple and remain exclusive across their entire lives until one of them dies, and then the other one remains celibate after that. And that's actually monogamy or exclusivity. But that's not how we practice it at all. So it's almost like polyamory in slow motion, where we are having multiple partners, just not necessarily concurrently.

Or given the levels of cheating and overlap among these, these theoretically sequential relationships, it's clear that even people who espouse monogamy aren't actually necessarily doing it.

[00:33:40] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:33:41] Dr. Eli: That they are actually having multiple relationships, but just pretending-

[00:33:46] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:33:47] Dr. Eli: that they're not.

[00:33:48] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Curious if you... I've seen so many different stats on the actual rates of infidelity. Do you have a felt sense that you've seen recently in the data?

[00:33:58] Dr. Eli: It depends on how you measure it.

[00:34:00] Dr. Nicole: Right. Exactly.

[00:34:02] Dr. Eli: Um, are you talking about lifetime occurrence or right now, you know, or the past year?

[00:34:09] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:09] Dr. Eli: Are you talking about any kind of emotional and/or physical contact, you know, a little smooching?

Or are you only talking about intercourse, which is a very, I mean, right there you're excluding all the lesbians- Right ... who absolutely have cheated on each other. Lesbians have cheated. Yeah. Gay men have cheated. Heterosexuals have cheated. Mm-hmm. Bisexuals. All the, you know, cheating crosses- Sexual orientation lines, absolutely.

So-

[00:34:42] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:34:43] Dr. Eli: because sex can be different depending on what combination of humans you're talking about.

[00:34:49] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:51] Dr. Eli: Measuring that gets sticky.

[00:34:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:34:56] Dr. Eli: So, and I think the introduction of virtual sexuality-

[00:35:02] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:35:03] Dr. Eli: has really changed. I mean, for some people, going to a strip club or watching pornography-

[00:35:12] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:35:13] Dr. Eli: counts as cheating.

So among those folks, definitely having a flirty conversation with AI-

[00:35:20] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:35:21] Dr. Eli: would probably count as cheating even though there's no other human involved. It's the direction of erotic or romantic or sexual energy towards someone else who is not the partner. And any way you do that, it counts as cheating.

So sending your ex little emojis on Snapchat or Instagram or Facebook or something like that could be cheating even if you never see that person in person. Mm-hmm. You never touch them.

[00:35:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:58] Dr. Eli: Is that still cheating? So I feel like- We weren't that certain what cheating was to begin with- Right ... and now with all of these virtual ways to interact with each other, you can have basically a full-blown relationship with someone on another continent-

[00:36:18] Dr. Nicole: Yeah

[00:36:18] Dr. Eli: that you are never physically in the same room with-

[00:36:21] Dr. Nicole: Yep ...

[00:36:21] Dr. Eli: that might be more intimate, more satisfying, potentially, you know, more in depth than the relationship you have with the person next to you on the couch. So that was a long-winded way to say it's difficult to measure cheating.

[00:36:42] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. This is why I've heard data somewhere between 30% to 70%, right, because of what you just said.

Exactly.

[00:36:50] Dr. Eli: Exactly.

[00:36:51] Dr. Nicole: But if we ballpark that, where are we at?

[00:36:54] Dr. Eli: If we ballpark it, well, also one of the ways is to look at how frequently cheating contributes to divorce.

[00:37:02] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:37:04] Dr. Eli: And that's quite common. It used to be, in fact, the second most common-

[00:37:10] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:37:10] Dr. Eli: reason behind finances. Ah. And now both of those have actually been eclipsed by tension around unpaid labor, with women- Wow

especially being sick of doing most of the housework, most of the child-rearing, while earning as much or more than their male partners. And women are not happy with that. Women feel really dissatisfied with partners who say, "I'm going to help." you- Yeah ... with the kids as if it's really her job and he's doing her a favor-

[00:37:54] Dr. Nicole: Right, right

[00:37:54] Dr. Eli: by parenting his own children or cleaning his own bathroom.

[00:37:59] Dr. Nicole: Uh-huh.

[00:37:59] Dr. Eli: Doing the dishes that he ate food off of, that's not a favor.

[00:38:03] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah.

[00:38:04] Dr. Eli: That's being an adult. Yeah.

[00:38:07] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah. I mean, the revolution is happening. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. I mean, my first relationship that I was in was a long-term partnership with this man who was very religious, and I remember, we're in college, getting in these fights about who would take care of the kids, 'cause obviously when you're 18 you need to have that conversation.

But we're like, I guess when you're religious it could be next day, you know? Um, and so we were like, "Yeah, okay. Well, we're gonna have kids. We'd need someone to stay at home. It's gonna be you, Nicole, because you're the woman." I was like, "This doesn't make any sense. I wanna be a doctor. I'm gonna make more money than you ever will."

He's like, "No. In the Bible..." This is a direct quote. "In the Bible it says that the man is supposed to be the breadwinner of the house, and so I need to fulfill my biblical duties, and you would need to stay home." And I was like, "That is so idiotic. Whoever makes the least amount of money should stay." Like, what?

And that was the end of our relationship, and, like, thank God. But, like, that is a lot of what people are coming up against. Like, it is right there, of, like, "No, that's your, that's your job. That is your unpaid labor." So I, I feel so good to hear that stat, and it reminds me when I read Untrue by Wednesday Martin when she was talking about the infidelity rates and how much it increased in the 1970s, which happens to coincide when women had access to credit cards in their own name.

Wow. So financial freedom means I'm not gonna be stoned to death anymore if I cheat, and I could build another lifestyle. Wow.

[00:39:44] Dr. Eli: And actually back to your original question about- Mm-hmm ... kind of where in the world or-

[00:39:50] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:39:51] Dr. Eli: not only in the world, but culturally and historically does polyamory happen? Polyamory is predicated on women's financial independence, and women's ability to choose their own partners, and their ability to control their own fertility.

Um, and all of those things are dependent on women being able to access education and paid employment.

[00:40:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:40:22] Dr. Eli: So in places in the world where women don't have that level of independence, you have polygyny. The men have multiple partners- Yeah ... and the women do not. But in places in the world where women have educational freedom, bodily autonomy, financial independence, you have polyamory and/or swinging.

You know, so that is North America, and to some extent South America, but more popular in North America. Western Europe and Australia are the centers of where polyamory is most common.

[00:41:01] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And this is why this conversation is political. People are like, "Ah, it's just my polyamory. It's not politics."

Like, are you kidding me? Wake up. You have to see the privilege that is a part of this experience, and also what a moment to really, like, push yourself and explore and be in that container to see what's possible. Because you're right, this is all that patriarchy, that patriarchy that has wide over the world, right?

And so I love you've probably heard this too, like the women who, you know, sometimes are at fir- Some women love it. They really wanna do non-monogamy. Other times it's a bit of that, "Eh, I don't know. I don't know." And then once they get in there and they realize how many more people are attracted to them, and maybe the male is really struggling to find people to explore with, but the female is like a magnet.

People are coming left and right. Then she's like, "Oh, well, I'm good here actually. You know, this is amazing, and I get to choose?" And one of my favorite things is when that raises the standards of the level of care that you want in a dynamic, right? You find another person who's not putting you into this domestic labor hole of an existence.

You say, "Well, I'm not gonna take that shit anymore."

[00:42:13] Dr. Eli: Exactly. Yes, that's quite a common dynamic.

[00:42:17] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. And so I'm curious for you too. I wanna hold space to get into the mixed orientation relationships, because I think this is a huge topic of so many people who will say, "That's not possible. There's no way."

One part, "How? How? How?"

[00:42:39] Dr. Eli: You know, they're, they're challenging. Of course. A mixed dynamic around exclusivity versus an open relationship is much like other mixed dynamic relationships around religion or parenting or, I mean, this isn't the first time people have tried to figure out, how do I manage having a different view or a different desire than my partner?

[00:43:08] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:43:09] Dr. Eli: I think the big change is that with multiplicity or multiple partner relationships becoming so much more common around, again, the parts of the world that I just mentioned, that more people see it as an option now And people who thought, "Well, I really love my spouse and I don't want a divorce and I don't wanna cheat on them, so I just have to kind of shove down this attraction to other people"- Yeah

are starting to bring it up and say, "You know, honey, I love you dearly and I don't want us to break up, but I've been closing off this part of myself for years or decades, and it comes at a cost to me, and I wanna consider opening the relationship so we can both have additional partners, but we don't have to break up and we don't have to leave each other."

And for some people, that is a breath of fresh air.

[00:44:13] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:13] Dr. Eli: And those people, back to your colleague who was like, "Oh, you know, multiple partner relationships never work"-

[00:44:19] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:44:19] Dr. Eli: those people who are like, "Oh, this is such a fantastic idea," I never see them in my coaching practice.

[00:44:25] Dr. Nicole: Exactly.

[00:44:26] Dr. Eli: I see the people who one partner is like, "Honey, I think we should open our relationship," and the other partner is like, "Holy shit, this just exploded my worldview.

I don't know who you are. I don't know who I am. Like, what the hell just happened?"

[00:44:45] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. "

[00:44:46] Dr. Eli: This feels like an emergency." Mm-hmm. "This feels like something I never signed up for."

[00:44:51] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. "

[00:44:52] Dr. Eli: This feels like you pulled the rug out," basically. And those folks tend to feel significant pain and distress.

[00:45:03] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:45:05] Dr. Eli: And one of the things I try to help them- Mm-hmm

figure out is where they fall on a s- kind of a spectrum of exclusivity to multiplicity, that if they both are kind of towards the middle, they can probably figure out a way that is a little more open than the person who wants exclusivity would ideally want, and a little more closed than the person who wants multiple partners would want, but they can kind of meet in the middle.

But if they're both really far towards the edges- Of, you know, absolute exclusivity and absolute freedom, openness to do any- anything and anyone they want at any time they want, that's gonna be really hard-

[00:46:03] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah ...

[00:46:04] Dr. Eli: to find the middle ground.

[00:46:05] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:06] Dr. Eli: So sometimes making comparisons to other forms of mismatch or mixed dynamic where you think about, you know, things that people have been other able to manage before.

Let's say you've got one really religious partner-

[00:46:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:46:25] Dr. Eli: and another partner who's not religious. Right.

[00:46:29] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:46:29] Dr. Eli: That person may say, "Honey, I am fine with you. You go to church. You go ahead and do your worship thing. You go ahead and pray before meals. You read those books. You do your meditations, whatever.

That's fine. I am not gonna do them, and I am not gonna pray with you before meals. You go ahead and pray. I'm gonna eat. Um, I'm not going to church with you. I'm..." You know, and individually that can work.

[00:47:02] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:47:03] Dr. Eli: It can be challenging. You know, it's gotta ... It comes with some compartmentalization-

[00:47:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:47:09] Dr. Eli: on both people's parts.

[00:47:11] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:47:12] Dr. Eli: And it gets more challenging when people have kids. Yeah. And they're like, "Okay, so do we raise the kids in religion or not?" And that becomes, you know, something that those folks have to think about and discuss. And once the kids are older, they can have a sense of do they wanna be in the religion or not.

But you ask a five-year-old if you wanna go to church, no five-year-old wants to go. And somewhere where they have to sit still and be quiet- Yeah ... regardless of the input that's-

[00:47:45] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:47:45] Dr. Eli: coming to them. It could be religion or not, you know? Mm-hmm. So talking about it in non-sexual ways, I think, can really help people- Yeah

consider. Another thing is- Figuring out how to spread the benefits and the disadvantages around. Mm-hmm. So relationship satisfaction research shows that in multiple partner relationships, if one person feels like they are paying all the cost and the other person is getting all the benefit, that is not sustainable-

[00:48:28] Dr. Nicole: Mm

[00:48:28] Dr. Eli: long-term. Those folks are not satisfied.

[00:48:31] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:48:32] Dr. Eli: And I would say that's true in monogamous relationships- Yeah ... as well. So figuring out how to make it beneficial for the person who wants exclusivity. Like back to at the beginning, we were talking about my, how I see benefit for myself- Yeah ... as a monogamous person in multiple partner relationships, that I get this level of freedom-

[00:49:03] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm

[00:49:04] Dr. Eli: that isn't generally associated with conventional exclusive relationships. And kind of digging around to find where are the benefits for the monogamous person, and how do you structure things to encourage benefits-

[00:49:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:49:26] Dr. Eli: for the exclusive person. I had another, I had clients who one of the reasons their mixed dynamic was so painful-

[00:49:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm

[00:49:36] Dr. Eli: for them was that while she was out dating, he was at home with the kids, like-

[00:49:43] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:49:44] Dr. Eli: doing laundry and putting the kids to bed and eating macaroni and cheese, and she's out eating exciting restaurant food and going to do exciting things because she's dating.

[00:49:56] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:56] Dr. Eli: And one of the ways we managed that, it was to even out the time and the resources.

So first of all, to have them date each other. So every Saturday night was for them-

[00:50:11] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:50:12] Dr. Eli: to date each other. And then alternating Fridays, one of them was out doing something, regardless- Yeah ... of whether it was dating-

[00:50:24] Dr. Nicole: Good ...

[00:50:24] Dr. Eli: or not. So he also got time and resources to go do other fun things and play with his friends and eat out and, you know, spend money and time out doing things, even if he wasn't dating.

[00:50:43] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:44] Dr. Eli: It felt more even-

[00:50:47] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely ...

[00:50:47] Dr. Eli: to them. It evened out the time and resources, which for, for many polyamorous people or people in multiple partner relationships who are kind of oriented that way, or I think of it as being wired for multiplicity, for them, really love is limitless. You know, love is boundless.

They can have They can love their partner deeply and still feel attached to someone else, and it doesn't take anything away from their love for their partner. But it does take away time-

[00:51:23] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah ...

[00:51:24] Dr. Eli: and money. Those things are limited.

[00:51:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:28] Dr. Eli: So making sure that those things, time, money, attention-

[00:51:33] Dr. Nicole: Yep ...

[00:51:34] Dr. Eli: are equalized can go a long ways towards making a mixed dynamic relationship feel more equitable.

[00:51:45] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Definitely. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's so good. There's a, a Post-It Note behind you that has gotten so much sun on it now that it doesn't, isn't as easy to read anymore, but it's been there for a long time. But it says, uh, "Jealousy is an epic way of seeing what you want."

[00:52:02] Dr. Eli: Absolutely.

[00:52:03] Dr. Nicole: Right? So yeah, you're going on all these dates.

Can we make quality time? And I think that's one of the most powerful things I always invite people to do is, well, first start with the body when you're feeling the jealousy 'cause it's always a somatic response somewhere in there, and if we can regulate there, we're gonna make a much better decision in our prefrontal cortex than the amygdala.

And from there, like, what is that thing that you feel so jealous about, and what is it saying about what you want in your dynamic, right? And instead of being like lashing out at the partner, can we do the cognitive and somatic work to ground, get curious, identify desire, and then come back and ask, "Hey, I'm noticing that when you went on that date it brought up a lot of feelings.

I sat with it. I processed with some friends. I journaled. I'm thinking it would be really meaningful," as you said, "for us to have a weekly date night, for me to also get some time," right? So rather than just coming with the full emotional force of that, which I've been there, I feel that, I understand that, it's can we take that moment to take that step back?

And as you were talking about the different types of mixed orientations, I'm even thinking within the, uh, open space, right, there's so much there, and I know you know that. But sometimes people think of like, oh, you're either open or you're not, and it's like there's actually like a pretty far smattering of different types.

It's gonna be great for the Bonding Project. So when I think about some of the couples that I work with, right, sometimes I have, and I'm, uh, you know, it's, it's across all different genders, I wanna be clear, so this isn't a gender dynamic. There can be one person who says, "I really want love to be community and connection and intimacy and kitchen table, and everyone's there," and then another partner say, "I, I just wanna go kiss people, fuck people, and like not really build the whole poly dynamic thing."

And then that's even a mixed orientation. Like, we're both open. We have very different... And so you're nodding. I know this is where the Bonding Project is gonna come in, so tell me more about it.

[00:54:03] Dr. Eli: Absolutely, and I think people have different things that they wanna get out of- Yes ... an open relationship. For some people, it is very much sexual variety, but they really are, they've got their one person as their emotional connection.

[00:54:21] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:54:22] Dr. Eli: And then everybody else is kind of for fun and play.

[00:54:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:27] Dr. Eli: But not necessarily for deep emotional connection or commitment. I think that's totally legitimate. Yeah. It's as legitimate as people who want multiple emotionally intimate relationships or who want an exclusive sexual and emotional relationship that doesn't involve other people.

I think, and that this, I think, is where The Bonding Project comes in, is that there's so much judgment and fear and baggage around- Mm ... the way people bond, and judging other people's bonding style- Yeah ... as wrong or inadequate or something, when really there's nothing wrong with wanting sexual variety or exclusivity.

Like, those are just different ways to bond, and you don't have to bag on other people. I see society really shaming and degrading multiple partner relationship folks, but I also see multiple partner relationship- Yes ... folks shaming and degrading exclusive people, as if we people who are exclusive are immature or unevolved or somehow inadequate, that if we could just admit to ourselves that love is infinite, then we too could embark upon the pleasures of polyamory and the infinite resources, you know?

And I think that's not true. I think for some people, and for my own experience, I have tried hard to be polyamorous, and I think if I could have- S- flip, flipped a switch and made myself be polyamorous, I would have been happier because I'm attracted to that kind of freedom and openness. I've fallen in love with multiple different polyamorous people, and I'm al- I always end up like, "Shit," you know?

Like, I'm in love with this person, but I don't want multiple partners. Mm-hmm. So if I, if I could flip that switch and be polyamorous, I think I would've been happier.

[00:56:38] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:56:39] Dr. Eli: But I th- and I've certainly heard from some of my respondents that if they could flip a switch and be monogamous- Oh, yeah ... or exclusive, it would've made their lives a lot easier in their religion- Yeah

in their family- Mm-hmm ... in this social structure. But some of us are just wired in ways that don't fit with how society says we should be, but it doesn't mean that we're any better or any worse than anyone else. It's just the way we wanna connect with other people. And so that's one of the reasons my co-founder Jess and I created the Bonding Project, is a way to not only help people consider their own bonding styles and how they may want one at one time and a different style at a different time, because people do change across time.

What you want- Yeah ... at 20-

[00:57:40] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:57:41] Dr. Eli: is often different from what you want at 40 or 60. But also that other people's bonding styles, you don't have to get all upset about that. Like, relationship diversity is fine. We don't all, all have to be the same. We can make room for people to have a wide range of relationships, and if you can talk about it honestly and figure out, are you best on your own?

Maybe you don't want romantic or sexual relationships at all. Maybe you want just one. Maybe you want a primary one, then with multiple fun possible. Maybe you want kitchen table, the group is what's really-

[00:58:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:58:27] Dr. Eli: important to you, and that you don't have to be wrong. You don't have to make other people wrong for how they wanna bond That rubs up against this kind of puritanical religious sentiment that says God has decided this is how relationships should be.

They should be one man and one woman, and that's the only real relationship. Well, from... And I'm not a religious person. From my stance as a sociologist, humans create religion-

[00:59:03] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:59:03] Dr. Eli: to put rules around each other. So some human came up with that rule-

[00:59:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:59:11] Dr. Eli: that it should be one man and one woman, and often didn't even apply it to themselves.

Because back to what I was saying at the beginning, wealthy and powerful men have always had the options to have multiple-

[00:59:23] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:59:24] Dr. Eli: partners. So it's a rule that they wanna make and apply to other people, and it just doesn't, it didn't fit society when they came up with it, and it certainly doesn't fit the way we live now, but it still structures some of our thought processes, I would say much to our detriment.

[00:59:46] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I always find it hilarious that King David in the Old Testament had 700 wives and 300 concubines, and he was the chosen man of God.

So somewhere, somewhere between the Old Testament and the New, which, yes, there's a lot, you know. I come from that religious background, like the whole Jesus changed everything. Here we are. But, like, man, like, in the Old Testament, that was the chosen man of God. I'm over here trying to have three. He had 700.

Could I, should I up my number maybe? You know what I mean? So it's just... But you're right, and, and then, yeah, you can get in all the systems of who chose which parts of the Bible got in the Bi- uh, which chapters got in there, right. Yeah. It's a whole political game that created this framework, you know, of man, woman, one person, all of that.

And yeah, it's, it's completely devastated so much of the diversity that is possible in relationships, right? When that's what you're told. And usually what I say, because- I'm so glad I did my dissertation on relationship anarchy. Relationship anarchies can, people can be really intense, like really intense.

Some of the stuff I got back, people were like, "I'm anti-monogamy. I'm anti-family." And I'm like, "Whoa." Like, it's like anti-men, very similar to some of the, like, the early feminist stuff of like, "I'm anti-men." And I think I like to step beyond that and say that, like, we can all grow and heal together, family is possible, monogamy is poss- Like, but, like, there's a lot of that very vitriolic, I talk about it like the, the U of a horseshoe or just a U in general, right?

Like, you got super radical people on the conservative side and on the left. There's a lot over here of like, "If you're not a relationship anarchist and you don't use labels, then get the hell out of our space." And it's like, "Whoa." You know? Whoa, let's take a step back and not be a colonizer to other people and say, "This is the one way you live."

Do you see how we're recreat- You know? And, uh, it's the same thing with psychedelics. You know, I do psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy. Someone takes a psychedelic and they're like, "In the water. We need this in the water. This is gonna change everybody. If you've never done a psychedelic, you haven't lived.

You're not enlightened." And it's so problematic. Like, yes, you expanded a lot on your psychedelic, sure. You did a lot in your non-monogamy and expansion, but that is not the only way to live. That is just not the only way to live a good life.

[01:02:08] Dr. Eli: Absolutely. This misconception that there ever is a one-size-fits-all I think comes from all directions certainly.

And I see it a lot in, for instance, this assumption that don't ask, don't tell is never acceptable. And I would say among certain kinds of relationships, yeah, it doesn't work. But ironically, for some people in a mixed dynamic, if the person who wants exclusivity is like, "Okay, this is the way I compartmentalize, that I hear that it's really important for you to have multiple partnerships.

I don't want that in my space. I don't want that on my mind. I don't wanna see pictures-

[01:02:58] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[01:02:59] Dr. Eli: of these people. I don't wanna hear about them. You know, I'm, I'm giving you permission. This is an agreed upon, yes, go out and have your multiple partners. But I don't wanna hear about it." I think that's fully legitimate, and in some ways that is a way that mixed dynamic can work really well with that compartmentalization.

Ironically, it can end up being very difficult for the person with multiple partners who then wants to talk about their multiple partners and is excited about that and wants to, you know, kind of share their joy with their exclusive partner, and that partner's like, "Nope, firewall- Yeah ... between me and your multiple partners.

Firewall."

[01:03:50] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:03:51] Dr. Eli: It can be more challenging for the multiplistic partner-

[01:03:55] Dr. Nicole: Oh, sure ...

[01:03:55] Dr. Eli: than the exclusive partner. But there is a lot of rhetoric right now that it's like don't ask, don't tell is illegal almost- Mm ... or it's never acceptable. It's never allowed.

[01:04:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:09] Dr. Eli: And I think, yes, in a, in a kitchen table polyamory setting, it would be fucked up.

[01:04:13] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:14] Dr. Eli: Don't ask, don't tell does not work in that setting. But in a mixed dynamic it can work really well as long as it is consensual and mutually agreed upon.

[01:04:28] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:28] Dr. Eli: That kind of compartmentalization Can work really well. Another thing I, I hear in a lot of especially polyamorous spaces is this very strong stance against hierarchy, that hierarchy is never acceptable.

That, you know, it's never allowed. One size fits all means no hierarchy whatsoever. And research indicates that even if people claim they don't have hierarchy, if you look at the way they spend their time and their money, they do have one partner that they spend more, more of these finite resources with.

Whether they kind of fess up to hierarchy or not, even the non-hierarchicalists tend to have that kind of hierarchy. So I would say what's really underneath that is when hierarchy becomes exploitative, it's problematic.

[01:05:37] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:38] Dr. Eli: But when hierarchy equals couples privilege and there's this assumption that secondary partners should know their place and, and they are less important, that is problematic.

But fessing up to actual hierarchy seems much more honest-

[01:05:59] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah ...

[01:06:00] Dr. Eli: than the pretense of not having hierarchy, because that's basically gaslighting if you're telling someone there is no hierarchy but they're like, "Actually, I think there is."

[01:06:10] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Exactly the second you said that, the listeners couldn't see, but I started grinning so far because I was like, "This is my dissertation topic."

Like, let me... Like, I got, I got it. Let me go. Oh, do tell. Let me

[01:06:21] Dr. Eli: go. Ah. Yeah, do

[01:06:22] Dr. Nicole: tell. You know, uh, 'cause yeah, the title for so long I was, like, removing the hierarchy 'cause I came from the anarchy lens. I'm like, "Remove it. Remove it." I ended up titling it Rewriting And my final conclusion is that an hierarchy is inevitable.

I know some anarchist out there is like, "How dare you, Dr. Nicole?" But I'm, I'm gonna tell you right now, you know what? We talk about anarchy as building multiple relationships, community. Do you know how many people are on this planet? About eight billion. There is an inevitable stratification of how close that eight billion people are to me.

Inevitably, and that is called hierarchy. Do I treat each person as a loving, kind, caring human who deserves respect, to be listened to, to be heard? Abso-fucking-lutely. But there is an inevitable hierarchy of how close eight billion people can get to me, okay? And so it's like people freak out about that, you know what I mean?

Only so many people have keys to my apartment. I remember, I remember again, doing the work I did. I was like at the time planning like a graduation orgy scene, which was beautiful, lovely, great. I was like, "There's gonna be a couple of people that are close and like supporting a part of that, and maybe some people that are watching."

They're like, "That sounds like some hierarchy." And I was like, "Fuck yeah, that's some hierarchy." Like, I don't trust everybody. Like, I have... don't have that kind of relate- Like, again, there's eight billion people on this planet So when someone says, "I don't do hierarchy," I almost get more worried that they don't understand the inevitability of it, right?

And what I find to be more political is to sit in the space of, right, hierarchy is inevitable. I only get to live for how many X amount of years? I don't know. Time, that's a powerful resource. Energy, focus, that's a powerful r- these are political resources. How do I actually get more conscious about where I'm putting them?

What does my community look like? Do I have a, a diversity of different identities there? Those are the things I'm much more interested in, not just, "Oh, I don't practice hierarchy." And again, people can say that, and it's like n- it, it means nothing to me. I'm just, I'm just gonna st- stop there. I could go on 200 pages later, right?

Like, I could.

[01:08:38] Dr. Eli: But I think acknowledging that is important- ... because really any system- Yeah ... of humans ends up with some people- Yeah ... either being closer to each other or taking on more responsibility. I, I think back on, I've lived in several different co-housing communities. Yeah. And this one very large co-housing community I lived in, we tried to do everything non-hierarchically, and it meant nothing got done.

We were trying to, um, come to some agreement about landscaping in front of the common house, and that remained a patch of mud for over a decade- ... because we couldn't agree on- Mm-hmm ... how to landscape until finally we created a committee-

[01:09:35] Dr. Nicole: Yep ...

[01:09:36] Dr. Eli: of people who knew things about native plants and knew things- Yeah

about water usage and knew things about what will actually grow in this climate and what will be low-maintenance and what is feasible. You cannot have a pineapple tree here. It's not gonna work. Mm-hmm. Um, and they came to some agreement, and they landscaped it, and it looks great. Yeah. Or last time I was there it looked fantastic.

But leaving it up to the community as a whole meant, in that case, inaction.

[01:10:13] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:10:13] Dr. Eli: And I've been parts of other organizations that have tried to avoid hierarchy, but it has meant that no one takes responsibility then. And I wouldn't say that's always the case, and the smaller the group- Right ... the easier it is to have a flatter-

[01:10:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm

[01:10:35] Dr. Eli: hierarchy than a very steep hierarchy. But the pretense of eschewing hierarchy altogether Just overlooks human nature-

[01:10:49] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[01:10:49] Dr. Eli: that we create hierarchy. It's part of our, I dare say, and as a s- as a sociologist, we're very nervous about saying any social behavior is natural.

[01:11:04] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, that makes sense.

[01:11:05] Dr. Eli: Because that's been used as an apologist-

[01:11:08] Dr. Nicole: Yeah

[01:11:09] Dr. Eli: stance in the past for racism- Yeah ... and sexism and classism.

[01:11:14] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:11:16] Dr. Eli: Except that when you look at social groupings, whether it's little kids on the playground or people in a co-housing community or relationships, you know, people do create hierarchy of how close you are or how good you are at something or how much responsibility you're willing to take

[01:11:41] Dr. Nicole: on.

Yeah, 'cause thank God I should not be building a rocket right now. I don't have that exposure. Please, put the hierarchy of the person with the PhD in that. Right. Absolutely. Exactly. Exactly. I'm curious for you, too, as you look back on your journey, I've, I've loved asking guests this question. What words of wisdom and advice would you have to your younger self?

[01:12:08] Dr. Eli: Hmm. Oh, that's a really good question. I would say that my younger self, and even now- I fit very well into other people's social structures, which kind of back to the bonding project- Mm-hmm ... that's the gardener-

[01:12:28] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[01:12:28] Dr. Eli: archetype, where you're not necessarily, like, super strict about this is what I want, but you're like, "Oh, what works with you?

What works in this situation? What works for me now?"

[01:12:41] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:12:41] Dr. Eli: So it's not these kind of this is what I want and I must have it this way all the time, but it's much more situational and contextual. And on one hand, that's a strength for me. But on the other hand, it has also led to me over-accommodating-

[01:13:02] Dr. Nicole: Mm

[01:13:03] Dr. Eli: other people and not being clear enough about my own boundaries.

[01:13:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:13:09] Dr. Eli: So to c- find the middle ground there, I would say to my younger self, meaning two seconds ago too- ... you know, like, not only me as a teenager- Yeah ... but me

[01:13:21] Dr. Nicole: this morning. Right,

[01:13:22] Dr. Eli: right. Um, of f- it's, you know, it is in my nature to be accommodating to the situation and to be very flexible and to be able to be happy with a lot of different ways to be.

But I, I over-

[01:13:42] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[01:13:43] Dr. Eli: I pour myself too much into that-

[01:13:45] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah,

[01:13:46] Dr. Eli: yeah ... accommodation and kind of rely almost on my external world to give myself-

[01:13:52] Dr. Nicole: Sure ...

[01:13:53] Dr. Eli: shape.

[01:13:54] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[01:13:54] Dr. Eli: Whereas I do have internal structure too. I do have my own boundaries-

[01:14:00] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[01:14:00] Dr. Eli: that I need to be more aware of- Mm ... and clearer in putting across.

[01:14:07] Dr. Nicole: Mm, mm-hmm, to take up that space.

[01:14:11] Dr. Eli: Yes, and that flexibility I don't have to be either/or Right ... either ultimately accommodating or ultimately like, "No, it must be this way," you know? There is this middle ground where I can be flexible and responsive to other people's needs and wants and to the context that I'm in-

[01:14:34] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[01:14:35] Dr. Eli: while also still holding my own center and not just blowing around willy-nilly, you know?

Mm-hmm. And whatever contextual winds take me this way or that.

[01:14:49] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Totally. Totally. Yeah, not black and white. There is so much more diversity and space in what is possible in that way of connecting, and I've, I personally, I've had the opposite problem and I've had to learn to come back because I think when I was looking at all of this data and looking at the history of feminism and looking at all of this restriction, I know I apologize to some of my male lovers who are still with me so dearly because I know when they would talk to me at the beginning of the journey, and this is common, we see this in the community of like, "Oh, I don't know.

I'm, I'm kind of concerned about that connection you might make. It might be kinda complicated for the community and the crossovers," and my younger self being, "This is my feminist liberation, and if you get in the way you can leave." Like, just wickedly, wickedly. Like, I see how much women have been restricted and there's nothing getting in, in the way of this.

I'm getting there. However, in the way of that, I, I definitely hurt my partner's feelings 'cause I couldn't even slow down to be like, "Oh, right, you might be worried because this is gonna impact you. How, how can I?" Right? And so, like, similar to you, there is a middle space. There is a middle space of, "Hey, I'm really committed to this, and how can I attune to you right now?"

[01:16:01] Dr. Eli: Absolutely.

[01:16:03] Dr. Nicole: Softening, softening, softening. And so sometimes when I get that with my other partners where they're like, "No, this is my liberation. Don't get in the way," I'm like, "Okay, I've been there. I get that. I get where you're coming from." I, I also took the test, right? And I got the butterfly. Could you speak a little bit to the butterfly?

'Cause dear listener, I also took the test, the Bonding Project. It's a quick quiz that you can do to kind of figure out where you land. And so you talked about the gardener. I got the butterfly. What is the butterfly, for the listener?

[01:16:30] Dr. Eli: The butterfly is all about freedom-

[01:16:32] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[01:16:32] Dr. Eli: and kind of being in the moment in different spaces.

So it lands on one flower, and then it lands on another flower. It's a pollinator that can kind of enjoy a broad community and get little tasty treats from different spots within the community, but it doesn't like to be caged.

[01:16:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:16:53] Dr. Eli: It doesn't like to be held down. Yeah. The butterfly does not wanna be stuck with a pin and in a frame, because that's death-

[01:17:01] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm

[01:17:01] Dr. Eli: for the butterfly. They wanna float free on the winds, and if they choose to come back to that flower, they will adore that flower and pollinate that flower, and that flower will be very healthy. But that flower can't grab them. They don't want a Venus flytrap that's like, "I got you, and now you're not going anywhere."

Mm-hmm.

[01:17:21] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Which totally speaks to what I just said, right? Like, do not get- Absolutely ... in the way of my liberation, right? And so we can soften, um, and then, I, just being transparent too, it's, it, just because you're a butterfly doesn't mean you can't be afraid of other butterflies, right?

[01:17:38] Dr. Eli: Absolutely.

That sometimes it's... And I find it very interesting in some archetypes that they don't match best with themselves. Mm,

[01:17:47] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[01:17:47] Dr. Eli: They match best with someone who is a little more like a butterfly would match well with a gardener, actually, because the gardener has the, a little more stability and is a little more grounded and kind of cultivating relationships as they are.

And so the gardener offers some stability that the butterfly could actually benefit from- Yeah ... but also often enjoys the freedom and the kind of effervescence of the butterfly. But for instance, wouldn't do well, the butterfly would not necessarily do well with the devoted-

[01:18:30] Dr. Nicole: Hmm ...

[01:18:31] Dr. Eli: who is a much more wanting, a much more anchored partnership- Hmm

where there's a lot more clear focus and time spent together and planned on, and that there's this clear kind of, not restrictions, but the boundaries are much clearer.

[01:18:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:18:57] Dr. Eli: And the gar- so that the devoted knows what to expect And so if there's a devoted and a butterfly together, I'm not saying it can't work at all-

[01:19:09] Dr. Nicole: Right

[01:19:09] Dr. Eli: but the devoted needs to be aware of, "Hey, I gotta give that butterfly some freedom."

[01:19:14] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:19:15] Dr. Eli: And the butterfly needs to be aware, "I've gotta give my devoted enough consistent attention that their nervous system feels smooth"-

[01:19:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[01:19:27] Dr. Eli: you know? And that, that devoted then can also devote time and energy to themselves or other projects or things that they're not only devoted to the butterfly.

[01:19:39] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:19:39] Dr. Eli: They need to also be devoted to themselves or to, you know, other things that give them a feeling of anchored efficacy- Yeah ... and, you know.

[01:19:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:19:54] Dr. Eli: So freedom and anchor can coexist, but you'd, you would, like, would need to be much more aware of intentionally balancing between the devoted and the butterfly versus the gardener and the butterfly or the satellite and the gardener or something.

Mm-hmm. You know, like, there are some pairings that work really well and some that are clashing- Mm-hmm ... just at their deeper bonding style.

[01:20:30] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:20:32] Dr. Eli: And neither of those people are wrong.

[01:20:34] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:20:35] Dr. Eli: It's not wrong to be devoted or the gardener or the butterfly, you know? Those are all lovely, wonderful ways to be.

[01:20:44] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. Feels like such a good final landing ground to really be in that space of creativity, right? This is no longer the paint by numbers, which is what can make it also terrifying is like, where am I going? What am I doing? Where is the template? However, there is also the artist moment that you get to create and design, and it is your life, your one chance at this.

And follow the relationship styles that bring you pleasure, and be open to the reality that it will change over time. So you have to be in consent with yourself and the people around you about those ever-evolving changes.

[01:21:23] Dr. Eli: Absolutely.

[01:21:25] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Well, it's clear I could talk to you for hours. For hours. But as we come towards the end of our time, I'll take a deep breath with you again.

And I'll check in and see if there's anything else you wanna share. Otherwise, I'll guide us towards a closing question.

[01:21:44] Dr. Eli: Be kind to yourself and others-

[01:21:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Mm-hmm ...

[01:21:47] Dr. Eli: you know, around differences in bonding style, around differing expectations. There's really no need to be so judgmental-

[01:21:59] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[01:21:59] Dr. Eli: of yourself or the way other people bond, that we can all just relax about that and enjoy the diversity without feeling like we need to do anything differently or do anything about it.

Just accept yourself and accept others for who they are, and you don't have to be the same. Yeah. It's okay to be different- Yeah ... from each other, and different from how you used to be or how you might be in the future.

[01:22:32] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Diversity is an important part of human nature, of nature generally. Look at not even two leaves are the same

[01:22:42] Dr. Eli: Absolutely.

[01:22:44] Dr. Nicole: Such a beautiful, beautiful last message. Okay. So the closing question that I ask everyone on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:22:58] Dr. Eli: Hmm. I would say fantasizing about things you don't necessarily wanna do.

[01:23:04] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:23:05] Dr. Eli: That it's okay to have, like, a rich, wild fantasy life in your head, and that maybe you do wanna do those things, maybe you don't, and that fantasy sometimes is best left in the realm of fantasy.

Mm-hmm. That often... I especially hear that from men who are seeking threesomes- Oh, sure ...

[01:23:28] Dr. Nicole: with two women,

[01:23:29] Dr. Eli: that they, the fantasy is amazing, but then it, the, when they try the reality, that it's not as much attention on them as they thought it would be. That the women- Yeah ... are as excited or more excited about each other, and it's not this-

kind of ultimate penis moment that- Mm-hmm ... he, it was in his head.

[01:23:52] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:23:52] Dr. Eli: Enough so that I titled a chapter Not All That, which a lot of men in my sample reported that they had these huge expectations around the fantasy of a threesome with two women, but in reality it was not all that.

[01:24:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:24:09] Dr. Eli: Because the women didn't fawn over him and focus on him the way they do in pornographic scenes.

So go ahead and fantasize. Yeah. Have as much fun and freedom as you want in your brain.

[01:24:26] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. The metaphor I've talked about here is how I, I have this fantasy of me being a guitar player on stage, rocking it on tour. Do I have any actual desire to learn... I have- I don't know any instruments, so we'll start there.

I have no interest in joining a band, trying to be on tour, and doing all... Like, but it's a really fun fantasy I have, right? And so, like, that difference between fantasy and reality, and ultimately that's the creative muscle where we wanna be in all of the worlds of possibility to really keep that creative flow going.

I will say my New Year's resolution, though, for this year is to make more of my fantasy a reality, because- This, uh, I have been watching lesbian porn since I was very young, and I will say it's even to this day, my life does not add up to the balance of how much straight lesbian porn, and I get that that's probably also because of a lot of the penis-centric porn is very, depending on who the content creator is, can be like you said, the fantasy that you're talking about where it's just the male, you know, penis being worshiped, or it's really aggressive or all that sort of other stuff.

But man, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, this is the year I'm bringing them together, we're shifting some things in my orbit. We're gonna make it more of the fantasy into reality, so both is possible. We can totally merge that this year. Yay. Yeah, exactly. Exactly, exactly. Well, it's been such a joy to have you on the show today.

Where can people find you, the Bonding Project, all of your stuff? Please, please share.

[01:26:03] Dr. Eli: Thank you. Um, you can find me at elizabethsheff.com, E-L-I-S-A-B-E-T-H-S-H-E-F-F.com.

You can find my blog on Psychology Today at The Polyamorous Next Door. Um, you can find my books on my website, and you can find the Bonding Project at bondingproject.com with no the. It's just bondingproject, like one word. Um, and right now we've only got the romance test out, but in the future, we will also have sex and finances and cohabitation, co-parenting, free time- Yeah

worldview. You know, there's all sorts- So cool ... of ways to bond outside of romance, so we had to just choose one to perfect.

[01:27:04] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[01:27:04] Dr. Eli: So we went with romance for now.

[01:27:06] Dr. Nicole: Amazing. So cool to see it transform, 'cause I know we talked about it when we first checked in for our original episode many years ago, so it's beautiful to see the project growing and expanding.

Yeah. I'm excited to check in again in a couple years. Yeah.

[01:27:20] Dr. Eli: It's been a lot of work, but really we've improved it drastically-

[01:27:25] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah ...

[01:27:26] Dr. Eli: from its first iterations.

[01:27:28] Dr. Nicole: Totally, totally. Amazing. Well, I'll have all that linked in the show notes below, dear listeners.

[01:27:34] Dr. Eli: Excellent. You can

[01:27:34] Dr. Nicole: just go straight into the show notes.

And again, thank you so much for joining me and the listeners today.

[01:27:40] Dr. Eli: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Oh,

[01:27:42] Dr. Nicole: such a joy Dear listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Modern Anarchy. Thank you for sharing this episode with your friends, with your lovers, with your community. Truly, it means so much to me, and I am so grateful that you are here.

If you are wanting to release jealousy in your non-monogamous dynamics and step into compersion and pleasure-filled connection you can read my book, The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide, for free on my website. There you will also find so many other free resources, including worksheets on how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non-monogamous dynamics and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure-filled sex and relationships.

So head on over to modernanarchypodcast.com to find all of those free resources and I look forward to seeing you next week.