278. The Pleasurable Polyamory Paradigm Shift – Ken Hamilton

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Ken. Join us for a conversation all about the mistakes that were made along the way. Together we talk about releasing shame through conversation, coming out as polyamorous to your kids, and what makes the difficulty of non-monogamy worthwhile. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.

I'm so delighted that you are here and joining all of the pleasure activists who are tuning in each Wednesday. My name is Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, author of The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and The First Study on Relationship Anarchy, and I teach students from around the world how to craft pleasurable sex lives and non-monogamous relationships.

Dear listener, you are in for such a treat today with Ken. Oh my goodness. Okay, so I have had two episodes with Ken's partner, Dr. Joli Hamilton, also my mentor and someone that I adore dearly. If you wanna check out Dr. Joli's most recent episode, I highly recommend it because she also talks about her relationship with Ken, and you'll have even more context to the dynamics that we're getting into today.

And I'm just so, so grateful that Ken came in with such vulnerability, right? The mistakes that were made along the way. We have all made mistakes in non-monogamy, right? It is a growth journey. The paradigm shift. There's so many things that we walk into, that we learn along the way, and so I'm so grateful to bring intelligent, thoughtful people like Ken into this space because there's just so much wisdom here, right?

Uh, if we can learn from the mistakes th- uh, other people have made, the mistakes that I have made, the mistakes that people in your community have made, we'll be in a much better place to really handle this paradigm shift and get into pleasurable non-monogamy. Y'all, my Pleasure Liberation Non-Monogamy group starts this Friday.

I'm so excited for all of you who are signed up. What a strong, powerful cohort this year. Okay? Okay. So excited to start this Friday with all of you. Um, and dear listener, if you're interested, next time we'll do this is in August of 2027. So ... And, and, and, and polyamory parenting, by the way. I have much more on this coming out in the fall with my video series, dear listener.

Video. I'm switching to video in November. Just a little teaser. Remember, it's coming out. It's coming out. Ah. I'm so excited for all the episodes that are coming your way, dear listener, and so excited for you to learn from the amazing, the thoughtful, the intelligent Ken Hamilton today. All right, dear listener, if you're ready to liberate your pleasure, I have so many free resources on my website.

I have my psychedelic jealousy guide for free, my dissertation on relationship anarchy. I have worksheets and tools and so many other resources because free resources are important for liberation and our community's growth. All of that is at modernanarchypodcast.com. That's also where you'll learn about my groups and all my offerings and all of that beautiful stuff that I do all the time.

And also, I wanna say the biggest thank you to my Patreon community. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. You've been supporting me for the last five years to be making this educational content, and I couldn't do it without you. So my heart goes out to you with so much gratitude. And with that, dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love, and let's tune in to today's episode

First question that I love to ask each guest on the show is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:04:18] Ken: I'm Ken Hamilton. I'm the co-host of the Playing With Fire podcast and a co-teacher in the Year of Opening with Dr. Joli Hamilton, which is a fantastic year-long journey of, um Learning how to relate well- Mm-hmm

and deeply. And I, I say it with such satisfaction because I've learned so much from all of the people who have gone through it, as well as from Joli, and just being part of it. Mm. And I've loved it. And so that brings me here, because, uh, you and I have had conversations on the podcast. And, um, that's been a blast.

So yeah, that's me. That's one facet of me, anyway.

[00:05:05] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. So delighted to have you on the podcast. Thank you for joining me, and Fat Cat, who happens to be here right by the microphone. Oh, such a joy to have you on the show today.

[00:05:16] Ken: It's great to be here. Thank you.

[00:05:17] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And for all of the listeners, there is also the episode with Dr.

Joli, which will have come out around February time, so you can scroll back. And there's also an episode with her way back in the beginning many years ago. Mm-hmm. So you can have those episodes and get more context, 'cause she does talk about you in the episode, so listeners-

[00:05:37] Ken: Oh, yeah I'm a topic of conversation throughout.

And, uh- Uh-huh ... and, and that's, I think, suitable. I'm both an- Yeah ... object lesson in various ways, and including of somebody who has really, uh, grown so much in this space.

[00:05:55] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm excited to hear your story too, because the two of you get to play such a role of what people can look to in terms of open relationships and non-monogamy and what's possible, right?

So that you're playing a really crucial role when you're facilitating that, and the way that you speak to that experience so publicly on the podcast, right? And so it, it creates more worlds of possibility when they see other people like you- Yeah ... who are out so publicly about it.

[00:06:23] Ken: And it's a... We live in a world of such, um...

There are so many personas. There are so many layers. There's the Instagram version of people. Yeah. And you know, it's like, who, who are they really? And Joli and I don't, we don't edit. We don't, we don't sugarcoat. And I don't think we've ever recorded anything that we didn't eventually publish. Um, so what, what people have heard about me is accurate.

To, to the extent that I know myself- Yeah ... that's what I'm, I'm tossing out in the world. And w- um, we have had some experiences of people not understanding that- Mm ... no, this, this is accurate. When, when we say that what we're doing is working for us, w- we mean it. Um, because we've- Point it out to people, you know, "So here's, here's what we do, and here's how we've gotten to where we are, and oh, we're so happy."

Mm-hmm. And we are- Yeah ... so happy together. And people don't always believe it. They-

[00:07:22] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:07:23] Ken: they assume that it's just one more, um, painted picture-

[00:07:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:07:28] Ken: rather than an accurate portrayal, but well, just keep saying it. And the thing is, the more people who reach toward the kinds of things that, that we talk about and that I talk about, the more they'll find out, oh no, it does work.

[00:07:43] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:07:44] Ken: You, you, you could get there.

[00:07:45] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. And so

[00:07:48] Ken: I w- Yeah, I know that's all very abstract and not very practical, but, um, I've just, uh... The transition from being, um, essentially living a more or less unexamined life and then- Learning all the reasons why I should, uh, look at my life from a, from an external point of view, and all the benefits to digging into who I actually am, um, that, that journey has been stunning.

I'm no- nothing like the person I was 20 or even 10 years ago. It's-

[00:08:28] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah ...

[00:08:29] Ken: so that's who comes here today.

[00:08:30] Dr. Nicole: Oh.

[00:08:31] Ken: A work in progress.

[00:08:32] Dr. Nicole: Welcome. Welcome.

[00:08:34] Ken: Thank you.

[00:08:34] Dr. Nicole: I really wanna hold this space for you to share your story fully, to take the time to tell us the different layers, starting all the way from where you came from, the scripts around sexuality and relationships- Mm

that you grew up with and your culture, your family dynamics, all of that. Where does this journey begin for you?

[00:08:56] Ken: I guess the journey for me, um, both the sexual and relational foundations for me were very, very similar in that nobody talked about them.

[00:09:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:09:08] Ken: In, in my family of origin- Yeah ... um, my parents and my siblings, it was not a topic of conversation with me, at the very least.

Um, I was the youngest, so-

[00:09:18] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:09:18] Ken: I wasn't always privy to what was going on between my, my parents, which was mostly my mother. My father was... I mean, he was a very standard '50s kind of dad in the '70s.

[00:09:31] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:09:31] Ken: Um, so he was, um, he was a role model of isolation and separateness-

[00:09:39] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:09:40] Ken: rather than relationality and connection.

Yeah. And w- that, combined with, um, my experience of what my mother would talk about... And it wasn't that I would go to her with topics. If I brought her a topic, she would talk to me, but she didn't raise the topics herself.

[00:10:00] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:10:01] Ken: Um, there was no, there was no conversation about masturbation- Mm ... or even really sex.

Uh, I don't believe I ever had the sex talk. But I was given a, a set of medical books to look through. Uh, my, my mother was a nurse, and so there were, there were medical books around. Mm. And some of them were, like, popularized, um, things. There, there was a set of, of books, it's like I Am Joe's Spleen and- Ah

I Am Jane's, um-

[00:10:32] Dr. Nicole: Ah ...

[00:10:32] Ken: uh, Uterus and stuff like that. And-

[00:10:34] Dr. Nicole: Sure ...

[00:10:35] Ken: so I, I learned about anatomy that way but, you know, obviously nothing about sex.

[00:10:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:10:40] Ken: And then sex education in the '70s was, I mean, I don't know, doesn't seem like it's n- all that different everywhere now, but, um, it was, i- not very helpful.

[00:10:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:10:54] Ken: My point being in all of that, that- Since no one would have the conversations, no one started the conversations with me, and my particular personality, I didn't push a lot.

So I didn't ask the questions. And I concluded that since no one was talking about it, it must be bad.

[00:11:16] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:11:17] Ken: Because there was so much silence, there must be shame.

[00:11:20] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:11:21] Ken: And I just internalized that, ingested that completely, uh, and just felt bad about... Uh, I felt bad every time I masturbated.

[00:11:31] Dr. Nicole: Mm, yeah.

[00:11:32] Ken: Thought I wasn't supposed to.

Did anyway .

[00:11:34] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:11:35] Ken: Um, but then felt bad about it. Mm-hmm. And felt like I had failed something, somebody, somewhere. Um, and that, that didn't change till I- Was in my 40s- Wow ... somewhere late, late 40s that that hung on. Um, anyway, so and that was true about relationships too. I remember there was, um, there was a girl I liked, and I mean, I don't even know what my mother would have done if I told her there was a boy I liked.

Mm.

[00:12:11] Dr. Nicole: Right. I

[00:12:11] Ken: never broached that topic, and to the point where, again, it wasn't until my 40s, I was like, "Wait a minute, I'm bi."

[00:12:19] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. "

[00:12:19] Ken: I'm not straight. Hang on."

[00:12:21] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:12:22] Ken: Because I just... It wouldn't have occurred to me. Like, a, that's for other people. Again, that model of isolation from my father and the outsider-ness, it's like, well, I couldn't possibly be part of any of the groups.

So I guess I couldn't, I couldn't be bi. Mm. I- that's a group. I'm not part of groups. Right. Mm. Uh, but when, uh, when I started my relationship with Joli, she believes that everything is talk about-able.

[00:12:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:12:58] Ken: So we talked about everything. Mm. And some of it, it was a transition period for sure, but it was such a relief that even though there were so many places where shame or guilt or confusion because I hadn't had the conversation, so I didn't even know what I didn't know.

[00:13:19] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:20] Ken: Um, all of those things were there, but for me, they were balanced by, I can talk to somebody about this.

[00:13:26] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:13:27] Ken: Holy crap. And that opened up... I mean, I talk about not, not examining my life. Yeah, right, because it just felt horrible.

[00:13:39] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Like,

[00:13:39] Ken: oh no, I don't belong anywhere. I-

[00:13:41] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:13:42] Ken: I- there's... And then the confusing messages of there's sex, which is bad, and so I should stay away from people so that I don't have sex with them or whatever.

Mm. But then there's, there's pornography everywhere, which I have no problem with, but when it's presented as the example, and then also when it's presented as, "Yeah, but you should be buying and consuming this. Even though sex is bad, you should be doing this." Such confusion. And then so there was my family of origin and the, the messages and lack of messages from there, and it was easy to stay with people through my life who didn't talk about things.

And that... I, I believe strongly. I know that there were people who tried to reach me, but-

[00:14:35] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:14:35] Ken: I was so defended-

[00:14:37] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:14:38] Ken: that I wouldn't. And then, o- I, I do wanna s- make this disclaimer for my parents. God knows what they tried to talk to me about -

[00:14:46] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:14:47] Ken: because I'm sure I didn't listen to everything.

[00:14:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Fair.

[00:14:49] Ken: But, uh, but the, but then started my relationship with Joli, who just was such a strong force in-

[00:14:56] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:14:57] Ken: who are you? Who are you really?

[00:14:59] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:14:59] Ken: No, no, the stuff that you don't think anybody's gonna like. Who's that?

[00:15:03] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:15:03] Ken: And having someone accept that opened so many doors for me.

[00:15:09] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:10] Ken: And in terms of my non-monogamy journey, that was baked into me from the beginning for- Mm

whatever reason.

[00:15:16] Dr. Nicole: Great.

[00:15:17] Ken: Um, I didn't do a lot with it because, again, isolation. Right. But I believed in multiple rela- uh, multiple relationships sounded kind of redundant. Like, we're all in multiple relationships all the time.

[00:15:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:35] Ken: So Okay, so, uh, where does this end? This ends, well, today- Mm-hmm ... where I'm, I am now practiced at talking about sex, practiced at talking about relationships, practiced at examining my place of privilege and working to notice when I'm acting from entitlement and try not to be an unexamined, in particular, white male- Mm-hmm

in this world right now. Because that's a very dangerous role to take.

[00:16:16] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[00:16:17] Ken: So there's a, a lens into me.

[00:16:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah. Thank you for sharing. I'm excited to go deeper into these pieces- Absolutely ... and really, yeah, hear more about it. For context, I'm curious, how old were you when you met Dr. Joli? I guess I should say Joli, right?

You probably met her- We can just call her Joli ... or when? Like, was she already a doctor? Where are we at? Like...

[00:16:42] Ken: Um, oh, jeepers, okay. Time is not my best strong suit, so I have to do math. Let's see. Hmm. I started my relationship with her, again, re- there's that word relationship. I started a romantic relationship-

[00:16:56] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm

[00:16:56] Ken: which don't try looking up the word romance, by the way- ... 'cause it just says, you know, romance. It's kind of fun. Yeah. Happy to. It's just a circular set of definitions of words that mean other words, and none of them- Uh-huh ... have definitions. But when we started to really say, "Oh, I think I wanna spend a lot of time with that person," we started to notice that was 16 years ago.

[00:17:19] Dr. Nicole: Okay.

[00:17:20] Ken: But I've known her literally her whole life- Hmm ... because she, um, she's the cousin of my best friend-

[00:17:28] Dr. Nicole: Hmm ...

[00:17:29] Ken: that I, I knew, um-

[00:17:31] Dr. Nicole: Oh ...

[00:17:31] Ken: when I was a kid. And so I was there when she was... I wasn't there when she was born, but I was around the family when she was born and, um- Hmm ... I was around while she was growing up.

And then she had, um, she had kids about the same time I did in separate relationships.

[00:17:49] Dr. Nicole: Hmm.

[00:17:50] Ken: And then in 2009 we started to, um... We s- tried to do-

Polyamory, non-monogamy. I don't know. There were, there was so little, there were so few resources that we didn't know- Right ... what the hell we were doing at all. Yeah. And, um, we broke a lot of stuff, and I, my participation in that system is part of what let me realize how, uh, how badly my unexamined life was impacting the people around me.

[00:18:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:18:28] Ken: With, oh, yeah. Oh, that guy didn't know anything, and he hurt-

[00:18:33] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:18:34] Ken: people constantly.

[00:18:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:18:36] Ken: By, by misuse of power that he denied.

[00:18:39] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:18:39] Ken: Like, "I don't, I don't have any power. I'm just this, like, this, this little brother who everybody told me to get out of their way. And, and- Sure ... then I grew up and, and, like, I don't ha- really have agency.

I can't make stuff happen."

[00:18:51] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:18:53] Ken: Middle aged white guy.

[00:18:54] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:18:55] Ken: Got all the power I ever wanted, and so all this unexamined, unacknowledged power would- Mm-hmm ... just come out sideways at people all over the place. And-

[00:19:03] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:19:04] Ken: And I got tired of hurting people. Mm. And so I started working on that.

[00:19:08] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:19:09] Ken: And so yeah, it's been about 50 years that we've- Wow

known each other.

[00:19:13] Dr. Nicole: Wow.

[00:19:13] Ken: Wonderful. Uh, almost. And, um, and about 16 that we completely, through-

[00:19:20] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:19:20] Ken: our lodging with each other.

[00:19:22] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:19:22] Ken: But again, it's been, like, 25 since we started overlapping with, at parenting and all that.

[00:19:31] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so there was a chapter of exploring more of the traditional relationship escalator or monogamy or the first relationship or marriage or-

[00:19:42] Ken: Oh, in my- In between?

Yeah ... um, yeah. So in, um, my first marriage, yeah, I... My relationships were monogamous more or less. Mm-hmm. Um, there were a couple of times when, so I had a girlfriend and, and she was long distance, and we, uh, or at least what I considered long distance. She lived, like, an hour and a half away. And at some point she cheated on me.

I can't even remember what she did anymore. I think it was- Mm ... just kissing, honestly.

[00:20:14] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:20:14] Ken: Um, it could have been more. I really don't know.

[00:20:16] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:20:17] Ken: But, um, but I don't remember anymore because it didn't... Like, I remember it mattering in the moment, but that mattering was so energized by all the messages. And when I looked at it I'm like, "Okay, I have this flash of jealousy, of this, this sense of something having gone wrong," but I couldn't figure out what it was exactly.

So that relationship survived that just fine. And

[00:20:46] Dr. Nicole: then- Mm ...

[00:20:47] Ken: uh, at least from my side. Mm-hmm. Then there were a couple times, at least one other time, that I was like, "Yeah, wouldn't it be cool if there were, like, more... If, if we could have more than one relationship?" And the person I was talking to was like, "Yeah, but we can't."

"All, all right," I said, and then just turned away.

[00:21:04] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:21:06] Ken: And then, um, my first marriage was, uh, was traditionally monogamous- No, no, that's a lie. It really wasn't. Before we even got married, um, we were already having sex with other people, like in a group.

[00:21:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:21:26] Ken: So not traditionally monogamous.

Yeah. Not- Yeah ... rigidly monogamous. And then after a time, that, that transformed and it became her having sex with the person she had been having sex with, and I was just like, uh, stepped out of the situation.

[00:21:45] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:21:46] Ken: And this was all, I wouldn't say talked about, it was all known. Like, she and I talked enough about it to say, "Is this okay?"

"Yeah, it's okay." But we never actually talked about-

[00:21:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:21:58] Ken: what it was beyond okay. Like, what impacts- Sure ... does

[00:22:01] Dr. Nicole: this

[00:22:01] Ken: have? How is it working day to day, and, and how do we all feel about it? And no, we just did it and, and that went on for years.

[00:22:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:22:11] Ken: And then ended through external forces. The- Okay ... the context of the relationship that she was in changed and, um, and that- Well, honestly, at that point it's not really any more of my business of exactly what happened over there.

[00:22:27] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:22:27] Ken: But, um, w- m- our, our relationship as it continued on as it was, and then came the time when we were, uh... We all got involved with, with Joli. And so that was very explicitly a, a non-monogamous experience that we were, we were building. And like I said, with no background, with no- Mm ... resources, with no critical thinking really- Yeah

applied to it, uh, it was quite a disaster. Um, not universally, but you know, again, a l- a lot of bruises, a lot of, uh, pain. Yeah. And then both Joli and I got divorced, and then, uh, couple of years later she and I got married, which we still talk about. It's like- Mm ... why did we get married again? And the thing is, because it is, uh, economically and, um, systemically advantageous.

[00:23:30] Dr. Nicole: Right, yeah.

[00:23:31] Ken: Um, there are things... And, and we saw it when, when we each got divorced. We saw the impact that being divorced had on our treatment in various systems.

[00:23:45] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:23:46] Ken: From healthcare to, you know, uh, educational systems, and it's just simpler to be married and then people don't ask questions, basically.

Right.

[00:23:59] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:24:00] Ken: Um, so which leads us to the, yeah, and then the, the years of actually trying to build relationships that worked for us.

[00:24:14] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:14] Ken: And building, building, I mean, uh, Joli with her PhD, and I was sort of, I was, like, in the side car of her PhD work.

[00:24:23] Dr. Nicole: Sure. I would,

[00:24:24] Ken: I would talk with her about what she was- Yeah

reading and her courses. Oh, yeah. And so I learned an awful lot. Oh, yeah. I don't have a PhD at all, but I did gather a lot of information. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and then she took that, and she's been working on coming up with, uh, technologies and support for people to have better relationships. And-

[00:24:45] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:24:46] Ken: along the way, that's what we've been doing.

[00:24:47] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, my partner Cooper was along for the ride with me, too, in grad school, and so he always jokes that he he learned a lot, too. 'Cause every day you come home, you're like, "Well, I read this. What about that? Well, uh, well, whoa, about this." Yeah. So yeah, the people along for the ride learn a lot through that process, too.

[00:25:05] Ken: Yeah. And n- and not everybody does it that way. Yeah. Not, not every, uh, not every relationship invol- uh, includes that- Um, that overlap

[00:25:13] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

[00:25:15] Ken: Which is, uh, it's... And it, it makes it, um, it can make the r- the relationship kind of rocky because that level of work can really change somebody.

[00:25:24] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah. I mean, my partner Cooper, he's more in the plant, native plant world.

Mm. And so when we cross paths, you know, he's also an anarchist, so we talk. You know, there's so much theory there. My other partner Rashid is actually in grad school actively for psychology, so then you're really crossing... Now- Oh, wow ... now we can actually fight about theory. Wow. Yeah. 'Cause, you know, it just changes, you know?

So it's just funny depending on, yeah, who your, your people are around you and, and the conversations you have. But I, I really appreciate getting this, this wider view to your journey because it's so rare for people to just w- uh, it's... I, I wanna have hope for the younger generations that they're doing this, but to just wake up and be like, "Right, I'm polyamorous.

I'm gonna do this from the beginning and it's gonna be great," right? Yeah. We have to understand the historical context as well as even the generational context between us, right? Right. Of, of what your upbringing was to what mine is to what even people that are younger than both of us are get- Absolutely

they're getting to wake up into this in a whole different world. And granted, again, there's so much more to do. I d- there's no way we're at all done, but there is progress that has been made across these different- Yeah ... generations. And so I appreciate naming the messiness of all of this. This wasn't just a wake up, great, I did it, jealousy was gone, and we were all-

super clear and our agr- Yeah, the laugh says a lot. That laugh says a lot, you know? Yeah. Of the wisdom you had to learn along the way 'cause there weren't books on this, you know? Nope. The Ethical Slut in the '90s, but that's-

[00:26:53] Ken: Yeah ...

[00:26:54] Dr. Nicole: just

[00:26:54] Ken: scratching it. And, um, Mating in Captivity was the other one. Mm. Like, those are the two-

[00:26:57] Dr. Nicole: Yeah,

[00:26:58] Ken: I stored-

that I remember being around. And, um, yeah, there's so much more now. Mm-hmm.

[00:27:03] Dr. Nicole: And,

[00:27:04] Ken: and thanks to people like you and Joli-

[00:27:06] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:27:07] Ken: more being developed all the time.

[00:27:09] Dr. Nicole: Such a joy. Thank you. Such a joy to share our mess with and lessons with the world, right? Yeah, um- When you go back too, and, and you had spoken about your father being more reserved, right?

I can imagine, and then your family dynamic not talking about these things, there's a lot of, as you mentioned, your dad being that, like, cultural norm of a father, right? That creates such a, a gendered example of how to handle emotions and feelings. Yeah. And so I think that's an important thing to slow down too, because when you get into having...

You know, again, we all have multiple relationships, and when you bring more intentionality to that, the level of communication, awareness of your feelings, all of those things that you have to have is the-- it's harder. It's way harder. This is way more complex. And so coming from a space where, you know, that wasn't modeled for you, I can imagine that too is a journey to even understand yourself and what was going on in that way.

[00:28:10] Ken: There's another element that I should mention around that, which is, so my father's parents were, uh, Scottish immigrants. Mm-hmm. So he was first generation, uh, Scottish. And, and growing up and, and watching how everybody else behaved and, and everything, um, I was like, "Wow, he's very Scottish," which is kind of a, a very stereotyping thing to say, 'cause I didn't really know any other Scottish people.

But, um, it's like wow, this, so this way he is, it's different from everybody else, and I guess that's Scottish. And then I grew up, and over the past really probably five years, we've had a lot of, uh, discussions, Joli and I, about, um, about neurodiversity.

[00:28:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm. It's

[00:28:59] Ken: like oh. Oh, okay. So he was, he was autistic.

Like, he wasn't even just slightly, you know, a little, um... No. He had, um, he had very clear sensory needs- Mm ... that were mostly not met. Mm-hmm.

[00:29:16] Dr. Nicole: And

[00:29:17] Ken: he, uh, h- he just, there were, there were things that in retrospect as I learn more, I'm like, oh, okay, and I inherited some of that. Mm-hmm. Whether it's inherited, I don't know, but I know that as I see some of what he experienced in my own experience, I'm like, oh, okay.

And so some of this where, this feeling of being an outsider and, um, not participating in groups- I am in these groups.

[00:29:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:29:46] Ken: I just don't think I am. Huh.

[00:29:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:29:48] Ken: So there's things going on in my brain that I didn't even know about, and, um, so that's a whole other aspect of life that, that enters in. Um, it's, it's been a wake-up call that I'm...

That one I'm still working on 'cause I'm a weirdo. Like, like, like, a- and I say that because that whole thing about not fitting in, I definitely don't fit in. But then I think about everybody else, I'm like, does anybody?

[00:30:16] Dr. Nicole: No. I

[00:30:17] Ken: mean, h- there's... Do we fit? And the thing is we do when we work at it. When we say, "Hey, what are you like?

What do you like? What do I like? What do you wanna do together?" And that's been what I've been working on. And my story sounds so monogamous aside from the little- Mm ... little drop-ins.

[00:30:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:37] Ken: Um, and that has a lot to do with, um, th- the practicality of it being so apparently monogamous. I mean, Joli and I have...

We, we date. We, we go out. We've had, um, many different kinds of, of group sex experiences. Mm-hmm. And that, that's just part of life. Yeah. And I don't think about it to mention it so much because it's kind of normalized. Yeah. So when I describe my life, I describe kind of the high points. I also don't talk all that much about how much I like to go out and look at animal tracks or- Sure

um, play the trombone. Like, these are just the details of life that make up my life versus the story that other people might be interested in hearing.

[00:31:22] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:23] Ken: Uh, whatever that might be. But-

[00:31:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:31:25] Ken: all that is to say that the, the practicalities of life over the past 25 years is, uh, as of being a parent-

[00:31:37] Dr. Nicole: Yeah

and

[00:31:37] Ken: raising children, and the logistical constraints of that- Mm-hmm ... um, particularly with seven children-

[00:31:44] Dr. Nicole: Right ...

[00:31:45] Ken: uh, homeschooled at various stages. Wow. Um, yeah, there's, um, there's not as much, uh, opportunity to- Yep ... engage in, um, to... well, in, in much of any kind of socializing outside the home of any kind.

[00:32:03] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah.

[00:32:03] Ken: And that's shifting now. Um-

[00:32:05] Dr. Nicole: Right ...

[00:32:06] Ken: everybody's, uh, either in college or got jobs now, so, um, you know, it's, it's a completely different world. A lot of them still live here, but Uh, but it leaves me with a, well, I think we're entering into a new phase, and I'm not sure what it's gonna look like yet. Yeah,

[00:32:21] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[00:32:22] Ken: But, uh, first date season is gonna be on us soon here, 'cause it's, uh, it's January now.

[00:32:29] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:30] Ken: And there's not much point in trying to find dating opportunities in New England in January.

[00:32:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:32:35] Ken: Or February. Maybe it'll start a little in March, and that's what first- Sure ... date season is around here.

[00:32:40] Dr. Nicole: I hear that.

[00:32:40] Ken: Um.

[00:32:40] Dr. Nicole: I hear that. It's cold.

[00:32:42] Ken: And now, and now we have a different home life.

[00:32:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:46] Ken: So we'll see what this year brings.

[00:32:49] Dr. Nicole: Right. Yeah. I'm hearing you speak to a couple of different things, right? The limited nature of time and energy. Those are finite resources, as much as love is so deeply abundant, right? And so, yeah, with seven children, that's a different paradigm than one- Yeah

two, or n- or no kids at all, right? Right. And so those are all relationships in your garden that you're watering. And so yeah, as you step into this chapter, as your kids are getting older and you're having more free time, right, you're able to expand now in ways that maybe this previous chapter didn't allow in that.

Yeah. And so I'm excited to see how you navigate that and step into that. And it also reminds me of the ways in which the non-monogamous journey is so unique, right? It's not this monolith one-way storyline. It's truly so unique for each person that's in it. Yeah. You know? And what I hear you speaking to is the ongoing consent of this model, right?

It's not like you and Joli are locked into this. Like, "This is what we're doing forever, and it's only this." It's like, no. Right. This is- Yeah ... this is a new chapter. Let's, let's be here right now and ask- Yeah ... ourselves, ask each other, ask our community, what do we wanna create at this time? And so I think that sort of-

[00:34:01] Ken: Yeah

[00:34:02] Dr. Nicole: um, evolution and connection to your pleasure is a really beautiful thing.

[00:34:07] Ken: There's a, a, a really useful and tiny little, little skill that I find- Mm ... works really well for keeping connected with people that I've known a long time.

[00:34:16] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:34:16] Ken: Which is asking them questions I think I already know the answer to.

[00:34:19] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:34:21] Ken: And it can be hard to even remember what those questions are. We, we make these... I mean, we, we get these mental maps in us of who someone is, and leaving that mental map room to shift and flow with the actual person can be kinda hard. But-

[00:34:38] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:34:39] Ken: every once in a while Joli will ask me, "So do you wanna be monogamous?"

[00:34:44] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:34:45] Ken: Let's find out. 'Cause-

[00:34:47] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:34:47] Ken: um, the whole point is, what do we want our relationship to be right now? It doesn't have to be what it was.

[00:34:54] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:34:54] Ken: What do you want it to be now? Exactly.

[00:34:56] Dr. Nicole: And

[00:34:56] Ken: what we want it to be now doesn't have to be what we want it to be a year from now- Mm-hmm ... or tomorrow.

[00:35:01] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:02] Ken: And I get that that level of, um, flexibility, it can feel exhausting to some people.

[00:35:11] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:35:12] Ken: Like, um, I mean, the, m- my understanding of what I've read about the human brain is that we, our brains are designed to optimize. We come up with shortcuts to avoid doing a bunch of extra brain work, and one of those shortcuts is to assume we know. And that's why I say it can be exhausting to stop assuming that we know.

It can be, but it's- I've found that it's also, um, it's, it is a, uh, it's like it gets better with exercise. The more I let myself let that be true-

[00:35:51] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ... the

[00:35:51] Ken: more questions I ask, the easier it is to ask questions.

[00:35:54] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. And the more pleasure because then you- Yeah ... are getting curious about your experience.

Yes. Right? And I love

[00:36:00] Ken: curiosity. It's

[00:36:01] Dr. Nicole: fun. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. All of our long-term relationships that we've been in, you know, there's so much we start to assume, that we know this person and where- Yeah ... they're going, right? Meanwhile, noticing for ourselves that we change, you know, and every day we might be feeling a little different.

But that- Right ... that lover over there, I know them, you know? Yeah. Like, it's funny how we do that, right? Um, and yeah, it's, it's so interesting. As I was thinking about recording with you today, and you, you mentioned wanting to talk about the different systems of oppression and the ways that they create scripts.

I, I know- Mm-hmm ... I talked about my dissertation on your podcast. Yep. Um, so much of the unconscious things that get inside of our psyche. When I first read about non-monogamy and decided I wanted to explore this, 'cause it was more of a decision than a, a felt thing. Um, I, I eventually felt into it, but it felt more of a logical decision based on the divorce rates, based on bed death in long-term relationships, based on the research and the history.

And so as I was going through that, i- there was so much psychological unlearning of purity culture and all of the systems, and it was a constant journey, and it still is, of saying, "I'm going to align with my values despite the reactions I'm feeling in my body. Despite the- Hmm ... fear, the narratives, and, and the all of it that was coming up in my body.

The stomach, all of it, you know? Um, and taking it slow. Slow exposure therapy with that. And what I realized in, you know, a couple of years into it, I'm like, "Oh, cool. Like, I'm polyamorous myself. I have all these great connections. This is so great." Um, you know, I mentioned my partner Cooper. I'm over at his house, and his roommate also has a lover that comes over, and he's a father.

And I'm, like, three years into my poly journey, and I'm seeing him. And my brain and my unconscious is going, "How dare you do this as a man with kids? How dare you be here at this house doing this when you could be at home with your children?" Mm-hmm. And I was thinking to myself like- What? Is that like I'm doing...

What? And, and that wasn't the first. You know, I've had so many thoughts like that where there's, like, judgment and internalized- Yeah ... homophobia, internalized mono-normativity. And so I wanted to hold space to just talk about the journey of being a father too and holding this- Mm-hmm ... 'cause I know in my past that I would be maybe even listening to this conversation now and being like, "Dang, Ken, how do you, how do you do that?"

You know where I'm at now, I'm like, "Great, yeah, you're a loving father. Like, amazing," you know? But I know the systems are so prevalent in terms of the storyline, the narratives of what it means to be a good man.

[00:38:35] Ken: Yeah. Yeah. And, um, boy, there, there's, there's quite a few different scripts- Yes ... on how to be a good man too.

[00:38:42] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yes.

[00:38:42] Ken: I've been, I've been involved in, in several different conversations where somebody at some point expresses something similar to what you were just saying you used to feel, which is, "But, but who... You know, the kids, the kids need to be taken care of, and you're, you're off having these relationships, but, but the kids aren't...

You know, they're... Now they're not getting you." And I think the most clearly I've ever, uh, I've ever heard it put was at some point somebody, um, and it was, uh, it was a man, he said, "Well, I have friends too."

[00:39:16] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:39:17] Ken: Like, "Yes, I have relationships with people other than my children," which by the way is very important to do.

[00:39:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:39:23] Ken: Um, I've not found it to be a real recipe for success to only have relationships with your children-

[00:39:29] Dr. Nicole: Exactly ...

[00:39:30] Ken: because they need to see fully formed humans around them, not, not a limited... I mean, sure, uh, developmentally appropriate filters along the way, but not pretending to be something else.

[00:39:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:47] Ken: And we have on Playing With Fire, one of our kids agreed to come on- Mm ... and talk about what it was like to be a child-

[00:39:56] Dr. Nicole: That's great ...

[00:39:56] Ken: in, in this context.

[00:39:58] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:39:59] Ken: And you know, one person's perspective.

[00:40:02] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:40:03] Ken: And one of the other things that comes up is, okay, so for the people who are concerned that children might react, uh, in some negative way to the experience of having polyamorous parents, what would those parents be if they weren't polyamorous?

What kind of parents would they be? There's no way to know. You're- Yeah ... you're... Like, you don't have... There, there's nothing to compare it to. These are just people being people. But if you have already, um, a, an internal mono-normativity that, well, this is how it's supposed to be, then those things are going to sound like trouble, possible trouble.

And so our... my experience with, uh, being a father and, um, being polyamorous is that, uh- First of all, our particular set of kids Nobody cared. They don't care what their parents are doing. They, what... They would occasionally ask questions of, you know, so we would bring someone home, which we didn't do all that much because we, we made a commitment early on because of how various things played out not to fold anybody else into the children's lives-

[00:41:24] Dr. Nicole: Sure

[00:41:24] Ken: in any significant way-

[00:41:26] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:41:26] Ken: until they were older.

[00:41:29] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:30] Ken: And there were too many people who came and left.

[00:41:32] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:41:32] Ken: And not from a, not, not poly- Had nothing to do with polyamory. There were people who would step into their lives and then just disappear, and, uh, some of them, you know, not by their own choice, but, you know, that's not...

Uh, kids don't, um, don't necessarily see the distinction.

[00:41:49] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:41:49] Ken: So we, we were very careful about that and upfront about that with, with other people we were having relationships with. But it was a decision we made. And again, that, that era is over now. Um, so now we're in a different situation.

[00:42:05] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:06] Ken: But during the time, yeah, it very often was hard to think about, uh, relationships with other people, um, because there were a lot of people to relate to right here.

[00:42:19] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:42:20] Ken: But we would anyway.

[00:42:21] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:21] Ken: Because as I said before, getting too flooded within the, the family unit, I, I d- I don't believe in that. I don't believe that's a good idea- No ... for anyone. No. I believe that we, that the nuclear family needs to be, uh, needs to at least have strong connections- Right ... to external groups of whatever kind.

Mm-hmm. And that was hard to do with, with so many kids, but, uh, we did what we could, and the kids didn't really care if these were, um... They didn't care what level of relationship we were having with these other people. And that's because, uh, this particular set of children were mostly not all that curious about it.

Some kids probably would be.

[00:43:11] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:11] Ken: Ours weren't.

[00:43:12] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. So. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I loved that direct line with the friendship piece. That's exactly what- Mm-hmm ... I was thinking because I think it highlights, as you said, we all need multiple relationships. The nuclear family is dangerous when it becomes a black hole of just that- Yeah

right there. It's- Yeah ... devastating for mental health when two people try to do that, and they don't rely on family and friends- Yeah ... and networks and people. That's regardless of monogamy or non-monogamy, right?

[00:43:41] Ken: Absolutely. Yep.

[00:43:42] Dr. Nicole: And so when you hold that of like, yeah, I hope the father of the children has these other connections, and then we bring in the non-monogamy side, and we see the judgment.

That's where... I think that's why I'm so passionate about talking about sex because it's one of the stickiest areas of our- Right ... human consciousness. At least- It is time, you know, I, I'm looking back, maybe it wasn't always this, you know, that whole, like, Christian colonization of the world thing really did a lot, a lot.

Really did. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I dream of the worlds where it doesn't, but the reality is that's the sticking point for most of us- Yeah ... right there, is how dare you explore your pleasure? How dare you do that with other people? Because it shatters- Yeah ... so much of the vision. And so I, I appreciate the, the reality that you can do both, and that you get to speak to that as an archetype, and also lived experience of that being possible.

And I know that, yeah, so many people I've talked to over the years have asked, like, "Oh, do we tell the kids? What do we tell them? When did you tell them, and, and how did that go?"

[00:44:45] Ken: So we started off, um, all of our children have known each other their whole lives. Mm-hmm. Like I said, uh, Joli and I have been connected in, in a, on a day-to-day basis, uh, living down the road from each other since, uh, we started having kids.

And so our children have known each other-

[00:45:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:45:08] Ken: the whole time.

[00:45:09] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:45:09] Ken: So there was no, there was no moment of, of blending. But, but we did come together. I mean, there was a point at which my wife at the time and I, we sold our house and moved into Joli's house. And now I will say right now that many mistakes were made.

I mean, I've already said this, but when I talk about that in particular, yeah, we d- I did not talk to the kids enough about what was happening. We just brought them along, moved them into a new house with people that they had good relationships with for the most part. And not talking about it n- definitely caused some big problems.

[00:45:57] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I mean, look at your sex, right? Not talking about sex- Exactly. I mean- ... another thing of shame. Here we are ...

[00:46:02] Ken: this is that, um, this is that situation of, uh, unconsciously just repeating what- Yeah ... happened to me.

[00:46:10] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:46:10] Ken: Which I feel pretty bad about.

[00:46:12] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Yeah.

[00:46:13] Ken: Um, sorry, kids.

[00:46:14] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:46:15] Ken: That was a mistake. And there were conversations that had along...

that were had off and on along the way, but that moment, that big moment of transition, that deserved something huge, a, a really big sit-down ceremonial conversation about, this is our new house, this is our new life, this is how things are now, and I didn't do it.

[00:46:38] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:46:39] Ken: So, uh, they had to figure it out for themselves.

Yeah, yeah. Mm. Definitely screwed that one up. Because I know part of it was, well, this'll just be normal.

[00:46:50] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:46:51] Ken: This'll just be how things are. And I think to some extent for some of them that was true.

[00:46:56] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:46:57] Ken: But I didn't take into account the larger context that they lived in. Again, that thing about the nuclear family.

Well, it's fine 'cause we're all here, and it's all fine right here We were not the end of their universe. Right. There was all these other people, and messages, and stories, and TV shows, and, and video games, and all these other sources of input that were just going to not align well.

[00:47:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:27] Ken: And so, so that was a big mistake.

[00:47:29] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:47:29] Ken: Um, so that happened, uh, pretty quick. That would have happened around, in 2010. And there was not as good enough conversation with them. And so from there, there were occasionally ch- occasional check-ins to see, um, how things were going. And, uh, they lived their lives, honestly. Uh, they... Like I said, they weren't terribly curious, combined with because I...

I'll speak for myself, because I didn't talk enough about it. It didn't feel like a topic of conversation- Mm ... most likely for them. And so, so they didn't bring it up themselves.

[00:48:13] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:14] Ken: But along the way, when, when people would come in... People would, would come to the house, but they would not be introduced as a, "Hey, here's a new person in the system."

Yeah. Just, "Here's, here's a visitor. Here's a friend. Here's..." And, um, uh, you know, the, the kids are a spectrum of sociability, so some of them are like, "Well, hello." And the other ones are like, "I think I'll go away now." Yeah. They're like- Yeah,

[00:48:41] Dr. Nicole: seven kids, you got a spectrum there.

[00:48:42] Ken: Got a spectrum of them.

[00:48:43] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:44] Ken: And, uh, uh, we did know that they understood that we were doing something different, because one of the kids said in, in conversation with someone outside the, the house.

The, the, the topic came up as like, "Hey, you're... You... Is this happening with your... What's, what's going on with your, with your parents?" And he said, "Oh, no, it's okay, because, um, they have an agreement where they can cheat." It's like- ... "Let's d- let's dive into that a little further- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah ... about what that means."

But in the cont- in the mon- in, in the mononormative context-

[00:49:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:49:21] Ken: there isn't another way to say it.

[00:49:23] Dr. Nicole: Right. I hear that.

[00:49:24] Ken: Because there is no other model in monogamous- Right ... standards other than cheating.

[00:49:30] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:31] Ken: So she said what she knew to be true, you know?

[00:49:34] Dr. Nicole: Right. Right. Hall Pass, right? That's what some people say.

Right, the Hall Pass. Oh, you hit the Hall Pass. Wow. Yeah. Love being in school. Uh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it makes sense when you look back on that, right? Just to see the repeating patterns, and also to have compassion for yourself, 'cause you are just navigating this completely novel new world, and trying to be sensitive to it and- And it's a unique conversation to have, especially as, like, developmentally appropriate across different- Yeah, mm-hmm

ages, right? And depending where your kids were at, or other listeners who have kids and are thinking about that conversation of when to tell them. Yeah. I think-

[00:50:12] Ken: When to tell them and what to tell them, because- Exactly ... then they're gonna talk to other kids- Yep ... who talk to their parents, and-

[00:50:17] Dr. Nicole: Yep ...

[00:50:18] Ken: it is a complicated question about exactly how to navigate that.

Uh, and ultimately, you know, I, I've tried to come up with, like, so what do you do?

[00:50:30] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:50:31] Ken: What- how do, how does one approach this situation? And there is no answer. It's, it's who are you? Who are your kids? Who are their friends? Who do they interact with? Like, you don't- so to some extent, there's a, a level of surrender.

You don't know, so you have to pick a way that aligns with your values, which includes the values of, um, to whatever extent you think it's important to meld with other people's, uh, standards. Like, these, these are personal choices, and you just have to take them into account and decide, and there is no right or wrong other than...

I, I think silence, complete silence is- Right ... is wrong. I, I don't agree with that at all.

[00:51:18] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:51:18] Ken: Um, but beyond that, yeah, the specifics are going to be very specific.

[00:51:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The when, the how, all of that.

[00:51:28] Ken: When, the how. Different for different kids.

[00:51:30] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah. Different for different

[00:51:31] Ken: children in the family,

[00:51:32] Dr. Nicole: and, um- Sure.

I could see that Yeah. 'Cause I mean, it's, again, when we think about the psychology of this, the reality is we are relational beings that tell stories about our lives. And when I say relational, the stories of what is possible or abnormal then is based on all the relationships we have, um, to the people around us, to the culture, to the wider world.

And so yeah, each child will have their own narrative of what's been happening in the family and what is normal and all of that. And so each one can go through their individuation process of, of- Right ... being devastated, thinking that's really cool, being completely disco- whatever it is- Yeah ... it's gonna be unique for each child.

Yeah. So I could see how the nuance of even that level across seven different children is, is a lot of emotional work to really attune to each one and, and, and take into all of that, all those factors. And as you noted, right, when your child knows that, then they share with other kids, and what gets told to the teacher, and then comes back.

And depending on the- Yeah ... context, you know, how much privilege some of us have or don't have, you know? Yeah. I, I love having a doctorate, right? That's a lot of protection in that, of like, "Yeah, this is my doctoral studies. Okay." You know? Right. Versus someone losing a job, losing kids- Mm-hmm ... losing access because of the court systems, and saying, "This is wrong and problematic," and all of the things that we could talk about.

And so yeah, I appreciate the nuance that there's no right answer here, right? It's gonna be unique for each person. And also being conscious that when we are quiet, we are saying something in that silence. Yeah.

[00:53:06] Ken: Yep.

[00:53:07] Dr. Nicole: So like, yeah, safety under these systems, under that. And also what is your silence saying to your children?

And, and then also what are they gonna go through if you do never tell them out of all of these factors, but then they go through their life and, and walk into the same webs of pain- Yeah ... around monogamy. Right? Right. And, and thinking, "Well, my parents did it. Look, they're happy." All the time there's all the secrets that maybe they don't even know.

You know, like, that's also brutal for me to think about. You know, having this image of perfection that is really just going back to the Instagram, right? Like this- that's like an Instagram- Yeah ... flat model of relationships. And so I do think that silence is something to be curious about, as you noted.

[00:53:47] Ken: Yeah.

Mm-hmm. And the curiosity, in my conversations with the kids when I've had them, across all domains-

[00:53:56] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:53:56] Ken: my, my goal is usually to try to, um, try to help them stretch their imagination-

[00:54:04] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:54:05] Ken: um, of what's possible. And I'm not saying I'm great at it by any means, but, uh, I've always felt comfortable with that as my, my starting point.

"Okay, what's going on here?" And, um, where- Well, what would I wa- have wanted someone to tell me when I- Yeah ... was doing this thing at this age? And, and how has my imagination stretched over the past 10 or 15 years, and how can I help with that process now? And what I've found really interesting is, again, with the nuance is, um Not every individual is open to the same level of imagination stretching.

Yeah. You know, they're not all the- Yeah ... they're not all the same level of curious. Uh, and they're not all interested in having their imagination expanded. So sometimes you just piss them off. Yeah. I really... Can we just, uh, can we just be done with this and move on? Because I don't really care about any of the things you're talking about.

[00:55:07] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:08] Ken: And that's not just about developmental appropriateness, it's also about what's caught their attention right now.

[00:55:14] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:55:15] Ken: Because, yeah, they might be developmentally ready for a conversation about, let's say, polyamory, but not interested in relationships. Like, "That's not where my energy is right now," so they're like, "Let's not talk about that."

They're just people.

[00:55:30] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Exactly.

[00:55:32] Ken: Also, they are people. Yeah. And it's complicated. And I can't meet them where they are because they're them and I'm me, but I can bring me to as far as, as close as I can get to where they are, as I understand it, and then be wrong about where they are- Right ... and then correct myself and-

[00:55:49] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:55:50] Ken: Um, yeah. Yeah. But it's, it's, um, it's exciting.

[00:55:55] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:55] Ken: And, um, fraught. There's a lot of, um, a lot of things to trip over along the way. Yeah. Uh, but... And, and it's true that I know one of the reasons early on that I was silent was because I didn't want to trip over anything.

[00:56:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:56:10] Ken: I have, uh, gotten over that. I would rather trip now.

[00:56:13] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:56:14] Ken: And then- Trip and

[00:56:14] Dr. Nicole: then stand back up.

[00:56:15] Ken: And stand back up and deal with the results because now something happened.

[00:56:19] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:20] Ken: Yeah.

[00:56:21] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I'm curious for you, the... You know, we're speaking about the experience of your children. What were some of the narratives that you, for your own internal experience, right?

I mean, I... In my journey, I, I felt like a slut, and not in a hot way, right? All of that sort of stuff to kind of work through as you're enjoying pleasure with multiple people. I'm curious what sort of- Mm ... internal work that you've had to go through to be able to feel... to let go of shame and release shame- Ooh

and feel really confident in your ability to access pleasure in all these different domains.

[00:56:57] Ken: Uh, I will say that that's an ongoing process. Yes, it is. Uh. Mm-hmm. I have made, I think, significant progress-

[00:57:06] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:57:07] Ken: in letting the, my soft animal body love what it loves-

[00:57:11] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:57:12] Ken: without shame.

[00:57:13] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:57:13] Ken: So my process has been to try really hard to believe the people that tell me that I don't need to feel shame- Mm

that they don't feel ashamed of me. And to believe the things that I read, uh, and hear. You know, all the s- all the messages that I take in that support that. I try really hard to believe those. And one of the reasons that's where I focus is because there are- Just as many, if not more inputs telling me I'm right-

[00:57:49] Dr. Nicole: Yeah

[00:57:49] Ken: to feel shame.

[00:57:50] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:57:51] Ken: So I have to pick who I'm gonna believe. And it's, um- It, uh, it's another one of those muscles. Once I've got practice, like, okay, I'm certain that I'm being the worst person in the world right now- Mm ... and I'm never gonna be loved.

[00:58:11] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:58:11] Ken: Except that I have a list of people, and resources, and stories that are telling me that's not true.

So I have to... I had to... Early on, I had to start taking the risk of believing that. Yeah. And so it was, it was a risk, and I could take that risk because there were places I could go when, uh, when everything crumbled. There were people I could talk to. I had developed some practices of self-care, and that, that was key.

Mm-hmm. 'Cause what I needed to do was to get myself to believe. It's so complicated. I had to get myself to believe that the feelings of shame, which were real, um, they weren't accurate.

[00:59:01] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Right.

[00:59:02] Ken: I wouldn't, I wouldn't even say... I, I wouldn't say they were invalid. They were just inaccurate. I was having feelings that didn't align with my values- Right

and I knew enough other people agreed that I could kind of lean on that support of the idea of people who believed that I was not a shameful person.

[00:59:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:28] Ken: It's not easy.

[00:59:30] Dr. Nicole: No.

[00:59:30] Ken: But I found that I, I'm a feeling type. I, I make most of my decisions and things based on feelings, and it's taken me a long time to figure out that that was even true.

[00:59:43] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:59:45] Ken: And the feelings of shame tend to overwhelm the work that I do to think about things.

[00:59:50] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I hear you.

[00:59:51] Ken: And so when I'm in a conversation about shame, I'll be like, "La, la, la, here's my ideas, here's my ideas," and then the compilation of feelings, like, knocks them out of the way.

[01:00:01] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:00:02] Ken: And so I'll just, I'll lose them.

But it's the constant practice of getting knocked off balance and then rebalancing. Yep, I don't have to fall down, and even if I do fall down, I can stand up. It's what you said earlier. Mm. Yeah. I don't need to stay down.

[01:00:19] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:00:20] Ken: So shame is not the end of the story.

[01:00:22] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:23] Ken: It's just a chapter along the way.

Well, this sucks. I do not like the way this feels right now, and as I have found before all the other times that I've felt this, it won't last. So just believing that lets me get to a point where I can start to reach out. Like, I can believe that until I feel able to take action through the feeling, at which point I can start doing the things that I've learned to do for myself to Supporting myself through the shame

[01:00:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm

[01:00:54] Ken: And then reach out to other people to see if they can help too.

[01:00:57] Dr. Nicole: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Such a good description of the dance between the self and the self in relation. Mm-hmm. The interdependence that we have. You know, the, the field of psychology can be so hyper-individualistic. Here's the DSM disorder for your problem, you, not the systems- Right ... all of that. And the lens that I was trained in in relational cultural theory would say that it's a very feminist orientation, examining power structures and all of that.

And it would say that there's only ever the self dash in dash relation, right? And that our reality is again created by the relationships that we have. And so sometimes I speak about that as mirrors, right? Relationships are both mirrors, you see yourself, and they're windows. So it's not just the- Yeah

seeing yourself, right? You get to see into somebody else too. Um, but when you... You have to be really conscious of the mirrors that you have in your life, because it will make who you are. Oh, yeah. And I know there's that always that cheesy, like, the five people you surround yourself with. And it's true.

From everything we know about relational psychology- Yeah ... this creates your reality. Mm-hmm. And so if you come to somebody, you know, and you say like, "Hey, I have this really beautiful scene I wanna do with four of my partners and this la, la, la, la, la, la, la." And they go, "Oh, God, that's so gross," that's when our evolutionary drives kick in and say, "Oh, God, I'm gonna be kicked out of the h- Oh, my God."

Exactly, yeah. Even if we're not thinking on that level, right? It's like- Yep ... our bodies go, "Oh, shit. Okay, maybe I shouldn't do this, 'cause I need to be accepted."

[01:02:31] Ken: Right.

[01:02:32] Dr. Nicole: And so then those are the moments where if you have a strong community of, of other people, maybe you go, "Okay, cool. That's not for you. Great.

Like, I have all these friends over here that, like, absolutely are on board and are ready to watch and support and whatever that is." Yeah. And so it's like our resilience comes from the connections that we have in community. And there's so much internal work that you're speaking to, right? It's like you can have all of those good mirrors going on, all of that, right?

And also there's a moment inside your own psyche- Yes ... where you need to get conscious about those internalized, uh, mono-normativity, internalized whatever systems are there, and recognize that that first reaction you're having is not necessarily a reflection of you as much as the systems that you're in.

And then that's where that- Right ... cognitive work is. Okay, I see that thought. Yeah. I recognize where it's coming from. I'm scanning my body. I notice that I'm feeling kind of like nauseous. I'm gonna go take a walk. I'm gonna do some deep breaths. Yeah. I'm gonna allow that path, that thought to pass, and I'm gonna go journal.

I'm gonna go connect with other people, and I'm gonna keep going down this journey, right? That moment, like I had mentioned, of the, the father who was polyamorous and all of that judgment, luckily I'd had enough stretching points definitely coming from purity culture and discovering the queerness, discovering all of the sort of parts to realize those first moments of tears or judgment or shame are not things I should be listening to.

Which is- Mm ... complicated when our society says, "Romance. Listen to your feelings. Listen to your feelings. Listen to all your feelings." If I listen to all my feelings, I would not be here practicing polyamory in any capacity. Right. Like- Yeah ... any capacity.

[01:04:05] Ken: And the message is, "Listen to all your feelings, and all, also all your feelings should be right."

[01:04:11] Dr. Nicole: Mm, exactly. You

[01:04:12] Ken: know, they should fit into this bucket of what is acceptable.

[01:04:16] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:16] Ken: So as long as all of your feelings are right here in this container, definitely follow all your feelings. Oh, by the way, everything outside that container, yeah, you shouldn't be feeling those things. And we get back to the shame and the, uh, the isolation and the exile.

And, and then there, yeah, there's the fact that I liked what, how you described it. Yeah, you've got, you've got all this, this, uh, community around you, and now in this moment, all of a sudden you're feeling like the community's going to kick you out.

[01:04:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:04:48] Ken: And you're gonna freeze and starve to death- Yep

because that what used to happen when you were isolated.

[01:04:52] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[01:04:52] Ken: Or eaten by a bear or something.

[01:04:54] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:04:55] Ken: But, um-

[01:04:56] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[01:04:56] Ken: but then because we are complicated and magical people, we, we can decide to kick ourselves out.

[01:05:05] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:05:05] Ken: We can decide to be the one who says, "You can't be part of this, this community anymore."

Mm-hmm. The rest of the community's like, "Where are you going?"

[01:05:12] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly.

[01:05:12] Ken: Yeah. Oh, I can't possibly be here. Yeah. You can't accept me. Come back. Yeah. No.

[01:05:16] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:05:17] Ken: Yeah, the things we do to ourselves. And, um, you describe, yeah, that, that, that somatic response to, uh, whatever the input was, and it, it could be completely innocent from everybody else's point of view, but it's your brain, it's your life experience that gets pinged, and now you're in a, now you're all dysregulated.

And that's, um, that's the other thing that we, Joli and I, teach is, uh, neurosomatic intelligence. Okay, time to regulate the nervous system through this moment of absolute primal existential terror.

[01:05:57] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[01:05:58] Ken: Well, that's actually just a part of your brain saying you're not safe.

[01:06:03] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[01:06:03] Ken: Are you safe? And there's a collection of tools that we can use, very, very simple tools that can help us let the body relax about the fear, and then we can start thinking and feeling our way through it.

[01:06:18] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[01:06:18] Ken: But like you said, those first moments- No ... not the time to be, uh, making- No ... relational decisions.

[01:06:24] Dr. Nicole: No. We're not even in the- No ... right part of our brain anymore. Not at all, yeah. We're in the amygdala, right? It's like we can't- Yeah ... the prefrontal cortex has gone offline, folks- Mm-hmm ... which is where we make our executive, rational, logical- Yeah

choices, right? And so yeah, the somatics are always where to drop in first, as much as my stubborn brain tries to say otherwise sometimes. You know, every day that's a humbling journey. I get activated, I'm like, "No, this is how I feel. I feel this way." And, you know, if you haven't had that moment in nominogamy where you go What the fuck am I doing?

How did I get here? I don't wanna do this anymore Whose idea was this?

[01:06:59] Ken: Yeah. Fuck this. Yeah. Uh-huh.

[01:07:03] Dr. Nicole: Then you have a- This

[01:07:03] Ken: is dumb.

[01:07:04] Dr. Nicole: Totally. Totally. That's, like, such... You know? And, like, those are the moments where if we stick to the cognitive, we'll be like, "I'm done, I'm done, I'm done, I'm done."

[01:07:10] Ken: Yeah.

[01:07:11] Dr. Nicole: Not even taking a moment to be like, "How do I actually feel my body?"

I was like, "Oh, okay, I'm actually really activated. Okay." Yeah. "Let me..." That's the night that you take... You know, you go to bed, you wake up the next morning, you're like, "Wait, but actually polyamory's really great. Oh. Ah." You know? And then you're like, "Okay. Well, I'm so sorry, partner, that I got ..." Yeah. I want to apologize, couples therapist.

You know? Like, oh my God. You know? Um, so that's just such a part of it, and I, I... One of my favorite questions or things to add to this is just, like, whoever said unlearning systems of oppression was gonna be easy?

[01:07:44] Ken: Yeah. Mm-hmm. It's, uh, it's, it's a, a rewiring at a fundamental level and, and the... You can't just decide.

It's not a decision you can make. These, these are-

[01:07:59] Dr. Nicole: No ...

[01:08:00] Ken: changes that have to build up over time.

[01:08:04] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:08:05] Ken: Because co- because systems of oppression are just that. They are, they are systems. They are patterns, and you can't change a pattern in a moment. You can only change it by establishing new patterns that don't match the old one.

Mm-hmm. And that takes time. It- Yep ... and it takes a constant set of, uh, choosing not to do, again, like I was saying at the beginning, that shortcut. My brain has already said, "This is the way through this." And you have to s- interrupt that and say, "Wait. No. That is... That path goes the way it's always gone, and I need to go a new way.

So I need to stop-" how, whatever that means for me, and make a new decision. And then, well, which one? Which, what's the right way to go, if not the way I've always gone?

[01:08:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:53] Ken: I don't know. There's a million ways. Ah. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard.

[01:08:56] Dr. Nicole: It is hard.

[01:08:58] Ken: And so we help each other. That- Yeah ... like, that's how we make it easier.

[01:09:02] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, we sit with each other when we're activated.

[01:09:07] Ken: Yeah.

[01:09:07] Dr. Nicole: And we're there, and then we stand up together. And I've found it so incredibly rewarding. I think this is the point where someone might say, "Well, then why do you why do you do all this? Like, why- Yeah ... why do you keep stretching yourself?"

And it's like, you know, even in yoga too, like, I teach yoga. It's, it's uncomfortable. Mm-hmm. Like, again, and usually when I'm talking about this with, when I'm talking about non-monogamy with my clients, it's like, or any form of stretching, right? You know there's that space where there's that bit of discomfort 'cause you're stretching the muscle, and then there's a zone where you're actually tearing the muscle, and we don't wanna get to that- Right

ideally, right? Sometimes your partner cheats, things happen. Wow, we're, wow, okay. But ideally, we wanna go in that space where we can just stretch a little bit, sit in that discomfort, and then keep going, keep going. You know, many years ago, I couldn't even touch my toes. Now my hands are flat on the ground, right?

The same thing, and, and the saying in yoga is practice and all is coming, right? So I like to think about that- Mm-hmm ... in other ways, too, right? You keep practicing this. There'll be a day where you wake up in your non-monogamous journey and some things that you could have never even dreamed of are just alive and flourishing in ways.

Right. And of course, yes, there's always still more to go. What a humbling, humbling journey that we'll walk to the end of our lives still going, "Dame, that was that system there. There was that box that I was holding myself in." So it's, it's, it's always going. But, like, when you look back, you're like, "Damn, okay, I have crossed some mountains here."

Yeah. Like, I have actually done a lot that I should be grateful for. And, and at least for myself, you know- Gosh, just the levels of insight through all of that walking through fire, playing with fire, walking through fire. Yeah. The levels of insight into my desire, my somatic experience, the systems. Oh, like I wouldn't change that level of presence for anything, you know?

Like, I'm, I'm so grateful to have this space now where I get to create my reality and co-create it with my community in loving ways. Like, yeah, I'd love to hear from you. Like, again, so much work. What is the pleasure that you get to experience on the other side?

[01:11:11] Ken: For me, the, the pleasure is the constant discovery

[01:11:18] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:11:19] Ken: Okay. I have a couple different answers to this. Great. Let's do it. The first one is the constant discovery, the repeated discovery that, um, that I am someone I like after all.

[01:11:29] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Beautiful, Ken.

[01:11:30] Ken: That I'm, that I'm not- Yeah ... someone who's stuck, who, um... Oh, uh, agency.

[01:11:39] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:11:40] Ken: So yes, I'm, I'm, I am someone who lives more closely aligned with my values.

That feels good. And this has... This isn't a value I learned. Po- polyamory and non-monogamy is not a value that I learned, but one that I, uh, appear to have come with, but have not lived into all the time, and now I do all the time. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That feels good. That feels... There's, um, there's a dissonance and a, um, you mentioned, you know, yoga and, and stretching past the, the point of safety.

Despite my non-monogamy, I would live according to monogamous principles, and that was a stretching, a constant stretch which was never going to ease unless I changed my values. And I decided not to change my values, but to change my actions. And that, that eliminated a source of pain for me, introduced others.

[01:12:44] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[01:12:45] Ken: That did it, but, but are they others? Because it's not like my monogamous relationships had no hiccups.

[01:12:54] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:12:56] Ken: Like, no, wait a minute. I, I have this monogamous pathway, you know, this monogamous history to look at, monogamous behaving, and, and then I have this non-monogamous. And I look at both of them and it's like, yeah, it, about the same density of trouble for both of them, for me.

Now, because I've brought myself in closer relation to myself, some of those troubles I feel more intensely than I used to.

[01:13:25] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:13:26] Ken: I also feel like that's a win.

[01:13:28] Dr. Nicole: Yes, it is.

[01:13:29] Ken: Um, particularly, again, as a white man trained to ignore all of my feelings, which why? So that the system can use me for whatever the fuck it wants, no matter what I think or feel about it.

[01:13:45] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:13:46] Ken: I don't really wanna play that part anymore.

[01:13:49] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:13:49] Ken: So, and, and this is one of the reasons people will stay in this particular box is it's going to hurt to step out.

[01:13:58] Dr. Nicole: Yes, it does.

[01:13:59] Ken: Because that's all the hurt we haven't been feeling.

[01:14:01] Dr. Nicole: Yep. Yep.

[01:14:03] Ken: It sucks.

[01:14:04] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[01:14:04] Ken: It is better than the alternative. Again, living in alignment with my values instead of in alignment with someone else's ideas- Mm-hmm

of what my values should be. So I feel better about that. And, um, there is more sex, which I like very much. Yes. I mean, I'm not I'm not gonna leave that off the list.

[01:14:26] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[01:14:27] Ken: Um, and every time I have sex in some unorthodox way, it is healing my, my shame wound.

[01:14:39] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:14:40] Ken: Uh, it's an opportunity, I should say, to heal my shame wound, and I try to use them as best I can for that.

And so it's this... It's healing is why. And does it hurt sometime? Yeah, healing- ... often does. I mean, I couldn't... Okay, so if I sprain my ankle, if I walk on it, it's going to hurt and it's not going to heal as fast, but I'll know exactly what to expect.

[01:15:09] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Mm-hmm.

[01:15:10] Ken: And boy, if that doesn't drive us.

[01:15:13] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, safety.

[01:15:14] Ken: Uh, and I, I say that as, as a...

I'm gonna say that as a we statement, not an I statement. I see it all over the place.

[01:15:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:15:21] Ken: Foiled expectations are painful. But ba- okay, so but healing. Healing involves an aspect of pain because it requires you to be present to the wound.

[01:15:34] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[01:15:36] Ken: And so it's kind of-

[01:15:36] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's

[01:15:38] Ken: where I was trying to

[01:15:39] Dr. Nicole: go with that.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It reminded me in my psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy training, we would always talk about how we can think about healing like a splinter, right? We have the splinter in our finger, and we see it's throbbing, and we start to go pull it out, and it's like, "Oh, gosh, that hurts. Okay, I'm just actually...

I'm actually gonna just push it back down. No, no, no, no, no." Yeah. And then the splinter just continues to fester, and any time you- Yeah ... put the finger down on something that hits that topic, you're gonna feel it, but it's a little bit easier than actually trying to pull out the splinter, you know, or rip the Band-Aid off quickly, right?

All of that. Yeah. Similar metaphor to the ankle, right? And what's, what's the, uh, the devil you know is better than the one you don't sort of.

[01:16:18] Ken: Yes. Yep.

[01:16:19] Dr. Nicole: I mean, that's, yeah, that's deep human conditioning stuff. We... Change is incredibly, incredibly scary, although staying the same in stagnancy is also incredibly scary, I wanna say- Yes

for myself. That is- It is ... terrifying. And so then that's the moment where you have to decide, you know, am I gonna stay the same, or will I hop into the water, right? I, I always talk about non-monogamy as swimming in a metaphor 'cause it's like, you know, Ken, I like... I wrote that dissertation. I was reading all of the books, and I, you know, I read all the books essentially on swimming.

I was like, "Here's my dissertation on swimming." And then the second you get in the water- Oh. ... let me tell you, that's actually a very different experience- Yeah,

[01:17:05] Ken: yep ...

[01:17:06] Dr. Nicole: than swimming. You know?

[01:17:08] Ken: Yes. Yeah, that is accurate.

[01:17:10] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, because of all the things we're speaking to. Again, like, you know, when I first got into the field of psychology, I was so against the unconscious.

You know, uh, with Dr. Joli and y- the Jungian perspective, I'm sure you're so rich in it. Like, at first I was like, "No, there's, there's no magical puppet controlling me. Absolutely not." You know, my existential professors are in my head and saying like, "No, we're not there." But the reality is, like, we are embodied beings with epigenetics and relational things in our nervous system around safety that has been here for evolutionary reasons.

And, like, if we don't acknowledge that all of that is present, we're missing a huge part of this because yeah- Mm-hmm ... when you put your body in the water, you actually have to know, embodied, how to swim, and that is not just an intellectual process. Yeah. And non-monogamy is the same in that way, right? Like, you can know structurally, but until you have felt that moment of, "If I tell my children, if I tell this person, if I say this on a podcast, will I be hated from the world?"

Like-

[01:18:07] Ken: Yeah, right ...

[01:18:09] Dr. Nicole: oof.

[01:18:10] Ken: Yeah.

[01:18:10] Dr. Nicole: You don't know until you've crossed that fire.

[01:18:13] Ken: Yeah.

[01:18:14] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:18:15] Ken: Yeah, starting the podcast and starting to just put all my stories out there.

[01:18:20] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:18:21] Ken: Uh, early on I think I managed it mostly by not thinking about it much. Sure. I'm just sitting in a room with Joli, and- Yeah ... we're just talking.

Yeah. And then I'm just never gonna think about it. I'm just gonna let that... I, I would even process the audio and stuff, but I wouldn't- Yeah, totally ... listen to it. Yeah. Just like, "Okay, we're just pushing this out." We're just editing, yep. "And I'm not gonna worry about what happens over there." Um, and that got me through the beginning of it.

But now, um... Okay, so I love that, I love that we're talking now, and that I talk with Joli and the other people that I've talked to. I love that we're talking about things that a bunch of people don't.

[01:19:02] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[01:19:03] Ken: Because it is, it is all the things that I, I wish someone had talked to me about. I wish someone had shown me that it was okay to say what was going on inside of me.

And so for me, that's what the podcast is, is, um, just constantly showing everybody, yes, say what's happening.

[01:19:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:19:28] Ken: Don't worry. Like-

I know there's, there's nuance to that as well because, um, there are... When we talk about coming out as, um, as non-monogamous, and yeah, not everybody is safe to do that- Right ... for multitude of reasons-

[01:19:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[01:19:47] Ken: running from systemic to the personal-

[01:19:50] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[01:19:51] Ken: about people's individual context, and you have to take that into account.

But once you've taken that into account, say everything that works for you. Don't hide, don't hold it in. And find... And ideally, ideally find people that will listen to you.

[01:20:07] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They exist. The people are out there, and I'm really grateful that you get to speak to that as a living example of it being possible, and more than even just possible, truly pleasurable.

[01:20:21] Ken: Yeah. So that is another reason that I do this, is so that I can have these conversations. Mm-hmm. 'Cause it does, it feels good.

[01:20:28] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I wanna ask a question, too, that I've loved exploring on the podcast, which is-

[01:20:35] Ken: Okay ...

[01:20:36] Dr. Nicole: if you were to go back to your younger self, what words of wisdom, advice would you share?

[01:20:45] Ken: Say everything.

[01:20:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:20:48] Ken: I'm safe. I have been safe the whole time. Were, were people gonna be mad at me sometimes? Sure. Were they anyway? Yeah. Say all the things.

[01:21:01] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:21:02] Ken: And I guess I would say, say everything and don't pretend not to care.

[01:21:07] Dr. Nicole: Mm, yeah.

[01:21:08] Ken: Those are the two things I would, I would say.

[01:21:11] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. On the podcast, I always talk about how we cry hard and we come hard.

[01:21:17] Ken: Yes. Yep.

[01:21:19] Dr. Nicole: Right? Because you can't pick and choose what emotions you feel.

[01:21:23] Ken: Yep.

[01:21:23] Dr. Nicole: And that's why I find the work to be so political, in that when you wanna feel more pleasure, that means you're also gonna feel more of the pain of the world. So welcome- Yeah ... to that. Yeah. Welcome to that, right? So yes, share that you care.

And my, my favorite part about making this show is that all of the people that come on get to be a testament to how many people are out there in the world doing this. You know? Yeah. So I always love to- Exactly ... invite the listeners to trust that, 'cause your words of wisdom rippled through their bodies and their ears as they just heard that.

And I know there's someone who's feeling that spark of like, "Ah, I'm gonna go say the thing now that I've been holding back." Yes. And, and- Yes ... I wanna even encourage that further of, like, there are people that will love you for that. Yes. You know? And like this- There are ... yes, the show can be proof of that.

You can be proof of that. Your community, it's just, oh, like, it's hard in the moment. Like, where will I find these people? But you, you will through time. You

[01:22:14] Ken: will. And I want to say to those people that this isn't ju- this isn't a willpower thing. This isn't a just decide and do it. Yes, you can do that. You...

There will be a point where you just have to decide. But the more skills you develop in responding to what happens next, the easier it is.

[01:22:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:22:37] Ken: And it isn't, it's not, like, practical stills, skills necessarily. It's the skills to be the person who just said that thing, and that's, that's a practice. What I mean when I say it's not simply willpower and a decision is it's practice.

It's small movements constantly.

[01:22:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:22:54] Ken: Or consistently anyway. It doesn't have to be constant, but, um, repeated small movements toward speaking.

[01:23:02] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:23:03] Ken: Toward feeling.

[01:23:05] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:23:05] Ken: We have a, we have a hero myth deep through our culture that the world will be solved by an act that saves everything. There are things that can be solved by an act.

They're very few and far between. Mm-hmm. Most things are solved by the consistent acts of groups of people.

[01:23:27] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:23:28] Ken: And I'm s- I'm still adjusting to that because I have all of the stories that, that I've been fed my, my whole life. And every once in a while I'll look and notice, oh, I'm acting like there's just this one thing to do.

[01:23:42] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Mm-hmm.

[01:23:44] Ken: Instead of, no, I say, "I feel a little uncomfortable right now." Just that.

[01:23:50] Dr. Nicole: Yep. "

[01:23:50] Ken: What kind of uncomfortable?" "I don't know, I just feel kinda weird." "Good. Start there."

[01:23:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:23:55] Ken: Or, "That was a little bit of an ouch." "Was it? Why?" "I don't know. I don't need to know."

[01:24:01] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:24:01] Ken: I'm just... And just being present in these small ways consistently will slowly build the resilience and the skill of doing it in bigger ways.

[01:24:11] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. Your first solo podcast. We

[01:24:19] Ken: did it. We did it. We did it. Thank you so much. I'm glad, I'm glad it was you. You're so- Aw ... good to talk to. Honored. And you really, you really helped me be present, so thank you.

[01:24:28] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Good. It's such a joy to share your story with all of the listeners, so thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. If

[01:24:33] Ken: we do this again, I'll ask you more questions.

[01:24:35] Dr. Nicole: Ah, yeah. Totally. I hear you. I hear you. All right, Ken. Well, as we come towards the end of our time, I'm gonna take a deep breath with you again.

And I'll check in and see if there is anything else you want to share with the listeners. Otherwise, I have one last closing question.

[01:24:55] Ken: No, I think I've, I think I've shared all the things.

[01:24:57] Dr. Nicole: Good. Good, I love that. Okay. So the last closing question that I ask everyone on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:25:09] Ken: That's a good one. Crying out loud.

[01:25:11] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:25:13] Ken: Crying when it's time to cry.

[01:25:15] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:25:16] Ken: Crying at movies. Mm. Crying at commercials. Yeah. Crying at whatever moves you.

[01:25:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:25:22] Ken: Go ahead and cry.

[01:25:23] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[01:25:27] Ken: How about you?

[01:25:28] Dr. Nicole: Oh, gosh, there it is. There's the question, right? What would I normalize? Oh, dear. Uh, in this current moment?

[01:25:36] Ken: Mm-hmm.

[01:25:36] Dr. Nicole: Or about crying?

[01:25:38] Ken: No, uh, in this current moment, what would you-

[01:25:40] Dr. Nicole: Oh ...

[01:25:41] Ken: uh-

[01:25:43] Dr. Nicole: Feeling fucked up. I mean, feeling completely- Yes ... fucked up by these systems. Yes. I mean, again, as, when this comes out- Yes ... in, in August, I'm hoping it's a better world, and I'm always trying to be optimistic- I'm hoping ... but, uh- Yeah

realistically with the things happening now in January, like feeling utterly nauseous- Yeah ... and just completely- Yeah ... disgusted and, and terrified and scared and all of those things all at the same time, um- It makes a lot of sense. Struggling to have sex in this current time- Exactly ... again, because it's so...

Our bodies are so sensitive to the world around us. When the world is actively on fire, to not wanna have sex makes sense. It's not the time to play, you know?

[01:26:20] Ken: It's not. It, it is... It's really hard to be the level of vulnerable in this world right now that would lead to sex. Absolutely, and that's-

[01:26:29] Dr. Nicole: Yep ...

[01:26:31] Ken: and, uh, hopefully that's better in August.

But- I

[01:26:34] Dr. Nicole: hope so.

[01:26:36] Ken: Even if it is, all the other ways that, uh, yeah, you get to be fucked up if you feel fucked up.

[01:26:42] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah.

[01:26:43] Ken: It's normal. Yep. We all are.

[01:26:45] Dr. Nicole: Yep, yep, and we're in it together. That's the beauty of that, too. Yes. Like, you're not alone in that, right? So, like you said, share your things. Tell the people around you, like, "This is what I'm going through."

Most likely they're gonna say something similar, right? And then we can all feel that seen-ness- Right ... um, to know that you're not alone. Again, isolation is such a, a big cause of human suffering. And so when you can find other people who share the identities or share the suffering and the pain, that's when we feel that seen-ness and that relief and a bit of grounding in our bodies to know we're not the only one moving through that.

So yeah, cry. Cry with everything going on, and cry together.

[01:27:22] Ken: Yes. And cry together. Yes.

[01:27:24] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:27:24] Ken: Lovely.

[01:27:25] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Well, Ken, it was such a joy to have you on the show for today.

[01:27:29] Ken: Aw. Nicole, thank you so much. Yeah. This has been wonderful.

[01:27:33] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I'm sure everyone would love to know more about the Year of Opening- Ah, yes

and playing with fire. Where can they connect w- with all of your resources?

[01:27:43] Ken: Yeah. The, um, the... It's, it's all at, uh, jolihamilton.com. And, uh, the Year of Opening is, uh, it has, uh, a few, a few cohorts starting throughout the year. Um, let's see. This is August. Then there'll be one starting in September, so there, there could be room in that.

And then there'll be more starting come January, and you can get, uh... Yeah. The... jolihamilton.com is the place for that. But also, we've been talking about individuation a little bit and about learning to be ourselves and live with ourselves. Joli has built up a, uh, a program of, uh, inner alchemy- Which runs once, maybe twice a year, but, um, in, in, in a window.

And, uh, so that, that would be starting, uh, if we do the same schedule next year in '27, it'll start in March. That, uh, you can take a look at that on her website as well. And there's a podcast to listen to. Short, just like, um, what is it? Um, I don't know, maybe 45 minutes worth of listening broken up into pieces that, uh, that walks through it.

And it is, uh, if you're looking to become more of who you are, that's what that's for. Year of Opening is for leaning into your relationships. And I'm, I'm involved in both of those, and also, I'm on the Playing With Fire podcast, which we love to hear people reaching back toward us out of that- Yeah

podcast. So please do. And, um, yeah, that, that's what we're up to right now.

[01:29:29] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I've learned so much from Joli- Oh, yes ... being one of my mentors, which I'm so grateful for, and so highly wanna recommend all of the work that the two of you do. And again, dear listener- Thank you ... it'll be linked in all the show notes below, so you can just go find all of that content.

And again, learn those skills for swimming. Learning those skills for swimming. Yes,

[01:29:50] Ken: exactly.

[01:29:52] Dr. Nicole: Thank you again, Ken, for coming on the show.

[01:29:54] Ken: Thank you so much. Yeah.

[01:29:56] Dr. Nicole: Dear listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Modern Anarchy. Thank you for sharing this episode with your friends, with your lovers, with your community.

Truly, it means so much to me, and I am so grateful that you are here. If you are wanting to release jealousy in your non-monogamous dynamics and step into compersion and pleasure-filled connection, you can read my book, The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide, for free on my website. There you will also find so many other free resources, including worksheets on how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non-monogamous dynamics, and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure-filled sex and relationships.

So head on over to modernanarchypodcast.com to find all of those free resources, and I look forward to seeing you next week