283. The Liberation of our Ethical Sluthood - Dr. Manijeh Badiee

On today's episode, we have Doctor Baddie join us for a conversation about the lifelong practice of erotic liberation.

Together we talk about the joy of platonic life partners, the unconscious impact of labels, and expanding our capacity for conflict resolution.

0:48

Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.

I'm so delighted that you are here tuning in for another episode each Wednesday.

I'm Doctor Nicole, I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, author of the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and the first study on relationship anarchy.

1:10

And I teach students from around the world how to craft pleasurable sex lives and non monogamous relationships.

Dear listener, this episode is so special.

You know, when you think about comedy and humor, there's so much cultural context that plays into that moment where you're able to understand one another and laugh and the just the the quickness that that has to be processed, right?

1:34

If you've ever tried to process humor in a language that you're less familiar with, it often is a bit stark, right?

You're like, what?

Wait, what?

Because the translation is lost, right?

And so I really am grateful for the comedy of the laughter that Doctor Batty and I have as we go through this because of that shared understanding of expansive relationships and non monogamy and just how sacred and how special that is.

1:57

And I'm really excited for you to join in on the laughter today, dear listener, with me and Doctor Batty.

All right, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and free resources at modernanarchypodcast.com, LinkedIn, the show notes below.

2:17

And I want to say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon members.

Thank you for supporting me for the last five years to make this free and educational content and for joining me on all of my personal shares.

And with that, dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love and let's TuneIn to today's episode.

2:46

And so the first question that I love to ask each guest on the show is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

Yes.

Well, I am Manager Batty.

I go by Doctor Batty on all platforms and I am a cisgender femme Iranian American and I am queer and bisexual as well, identify as both.

3:18

And I love to just bring people joy.

And what gives me a lot of joy is my animals.

I have two cats and two dogs and they just make me so happy.

And my partners and my dear like friends slash platonic life partners.

3:41

And so, yeah, that's a little bit about me professionally.

I am a professor and a psychologist.

Great.

Well, welcome to modern Anarchy.

I'm so delighted to have you here.

Thank you.

Me too.

Yeah.

And I welcome any pets who come into the space at any time.

3:58

I know Fat Cat will probably come in at our own time to the recording today.

I love fat cats.

Those are the best.

She's dangerous though, she always loves.

She definitely attacks the most during client sessions and during podcasts.

I think because I'm not engaging with her and she's like, she gets very jealous some might say.

4:20

Yeah, so funny.

Yeah, well, I do have a cat in here with me.

She's a little obsessed with me.

Her name's Lucy.

She's sleeping.

But I will try to if she doesn't come instead of my lap at some point, I will try to bring her before we end for a for a little appearance.

4:36

Good, good.

The real star of the show?

Lucy, obviously.

Yeah, her full name is Lucy Goosey.

Lucy Goosey Pussycat.

Wow, amazing.

That's that's our government name.

I love that it's, it's paper.

It's on there.

Amazing, amazing.

4:53

Well, part of the magic of the show is holding space for each guest's personal journey.

I would love to hear what has your pleasure liberation journey looked like for you.

Yeah, that's a great question.

Well, you know, growing up, I feel like, I mean, I grew up, so I was born in 1980.

5:14

So, you know, I grew up at a time where there wasn't as much, I think open.

I mean, not that there's a ton now open talk about sexuality, but I think there was in some ways less.

And also like just specifically about queerness, there was really no visibly queer people.

5:35

Like when I grew up.

I remember when Ellen came out, I was, I think it was like 19.

And that was like such a big deal.

Unfortunately, she turned out to be kind of a jerk, but that's a whole other story.

But like, that was such a big deal.

That was at 19.

I was 19, so I think that was the first time I saw like a visibly queer person.

5:54

And I grew up in Texas, which is even though I was a suburb of Dallas, it's pretty conservative there, you know, very, very conservative.

And so I pretty much left when I was 18, which like from the suburb of Dallas that that I was in.

6:12

I mean, I didn't go that far.

I went like an hour and away, but basically I knew that I would never fit in in some some way.

And so, I mean, I came out to myself as queer when I was around 17, but then it took maybe another decade to come out to other people.

6:30

Well, I did come out to, to close friends at the time, but 10 more years to come out to family and, and so, and then another few years to come out on social media and then just claim it everywhere.

Professionally, I've always been very lucky to be out at most, I think pretty much every professional setting I've been in.

6:51

So that's been nice.

But but yeah, so that's a little bit about my journey.

And then polyamory, I feel like I was always polyamorous in the sense that I was always very present and I didn't really think my connection with one person took away from another.

7:09

And so I never had the language for it though, until like my 20s.

And then, sure.

So that's when I really started to take that label.

And then right now I have two life partners, one who I've been with since that we live together and we're legally married.

7:25

And so we've been together since 2009.

And then my lady friend fiance, we have been together since 2020.

So we've been together for five years and we're gonna get married, culturally married next, next March.

7:44

Congratulations.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Beautiful.

Yeah, yeah.

Can I ask you questions?

Yeah, that's the whole.

Yeah, the inner.

Yes, Yes, this is Park.

Yes, please do.

I guess that curiously, your what your polyamory life is like.

8:02

In the current.

Whatever you want to share, like not, not anything that's too, you know, whatever you'd like to share, not anything specific, but.

Yeah I, I especially in this space I do like to share a lot I think it's really important for us to have cultural images of what's possible.

You know, when I'm doing client has a whole different thing with in podcast land.

8:21

I'm like, yeah, here we go.

OK, Currently I have 4 lovers.

One just moved away to California and I'm deeply sad.

I mean, I'm really excited to have a connection in California, which is where I grew up and I can go visit her anytime, but we've been together for the last three years and she just moved away.

8:43

So that's a something I'm still processing.

And then I have a partner I've been with for last four years, a newer connection in the last year who he's becoming a therapist, which is also really interesting in counselling psych like we were talking about earlier.

9:02

So it's interesting to see his journey compared to mine in clinical psych and my other partner Cooper, he's, you know, much more into like nerdy plant knowledge and relationship anarchy knowledge.

And then once you start dating someone who has the same field as you, the things you can argue about suddenly have expanded, you know, in a relationship you're like, well, I don't think that's what CBT mean.

9:25

You know, it's just like, oh, so that's a new one we're exploring together.

And then I have a newer connection lover that I've been like really enjoying time with and, and we've only been connecting since this last summer.

So what that's almost like 568 months somewhere around there, but really beautiful kitchen table dynamics.

9:46

We all climb together and hang out and each one of them has their own worlds of people too.

So it's very like, yeah, kitchen table loving community.

And that's not to say that there aren't really complex days full of lots of tears, you know, and, and and all of that.

10:02

But so far it's been really stable and really, really enjoyable in this season right now.

Yay, that sounds really lovely.

I love that.

I love that.

Yeah, I love the new connections and yeah, sounds like a good, a good.

10:22

Yeah.

That's that's why I love polyamory.

There's like really infinite ways to practice it.

And it's just, you know, it's interesting because I have a polyamorous bipod group and we're actually talking today more in depth about just like terms and why we pick the terms we select.

10:44

And I know you're obviously your podcast is, you know, modern anarchy and there's been a lot of talk in about relationship anarchy in the group.

And the group itself is, I mean, it's titled polyamorous, but I try to be clear in the materials that it's like pretty much non monogamous by far.

11:03

You know, it doesn't have you don't have to necessarily be polyamorous, but I do sort of like I keep it that title because I do think that that it does have like a common meaning that people get, but I don't you know, I obviously want, you know, anyone who because is non monogamous can be there.

11:21

But but then so I that's come up a lot of like, why do we pick the labels that we do and relationship anarchy versus polyamory And just the idea that maybe polyamory is still prioritizing romantic connection to some extent.

11:41

And so like, but whereas relationship anarchy is more, I guess, just more more open, maybe less like couple centric in that way.

So it's an interesting conversation and obviously someone can identify as both.

11:57

You know, I personally really like polyamory because I just like defining my connections as multiple loves.

And for me, like the, the, the root words are really nice.

And for me it's, it's not, it's not necessarily limited to romantic because for example, like I have a platonic life partner and you know, she's, she's someone who I like consider like a life partner, you know, And so that's also a love that's part of my polyamory, A polyamory or like romantic friendships.

12:34

So to me, it's like the love can mean a lot of things, if that makes sense.

But I also understand, I mean, it's very personal.

It's very personal what you identify as.

And this is not a judgement on anyone, just sort of explaining why I identify.

12:50

But I love that there's so many terms for people.

I don't know how you feel about like labels and stuff.

Yeah, yeah.

I think at the end of the day, we do need words to connect with other humans.

So, you know, I want to use words which are inherently labels to speak and to connect.

13:09

Like at the most like basic, like, you know, it's like we do use labels to say I feel this way or this is what I've thought is inevitable.

We can't really get out of labels, but the meaning making of those labels.

My dissertation was on relationship anarchy.

So when I was doing interviews for those sorts of people, Right.

13:27

You're laughing, you're nodding.

This is great.

And some of those people were saying, like, I don't use the word partner.

That feels restrictive.

I use the word friend or a lover, which I also think is really beautiful.

And that's really great.

For me, it comes down to a question of politics, too, you know, and safety at different points.

13:45

If someone asks me, you know, and I say, this is a partner that's going to connect to so many different ideas of that versus if I say friend, that can be way less political.

If I'm in a circle like, oh, these are my friends.

I'm not outing myself to a certain degree, which is a choice at different points, you know, so usually those are the words I'm thinking about.

14:08

But what I do find really fascinating about labels is the way they impact our unconscious.

When we say you have that conversation with a lover and say like, hey, let's I, we both want to use the word partner.

Great.

Now often from us, there's this like unconscious slew of things that when we elect that label, we assume then that we're both agreeing to.

14:32

And I think that's where I've come to really admire the relationship anarchy stance of like, this is a friend.

This is a friend.

And when you continue to put it through that, it creates a lens of a different way of looking at that person.

And it can help to do a lot of like clearing of those unconscious things.

14:48

But I still use, I still use the words partner, lover, friend, interchangeably.

Like on the podcast, whenever I said partner to people, people would be like, how do you do that?

How many people are you married to or how does this work?

15:03

And so there's just so much more weight to the word partner, even for folks.

Yeah, definitely, definitely.

I know.

I almost feel like I want another term because you're right, it is limited.

And you know, my, my lady friend, she is actually a lawyer.

15:20

So she actually does not like that term just because for her it's like a professional thing.

A partner in the firm.

Yeah.

So it's like she's like, that doesn't sound romantic.

Whereas in academia they use that a lot.

But yeah, I think, I think sometimes I use connection just because that's more like open and flexible.

15:40

Like if I'm, if I'm talking about like just relationships more generally, like I'll try to say connection and not just focus on that.

But but yeah, like I, I feel like it's, it's, it's also like I kind of like it.

15:56

I kind of like saying like these are my partners too, you know, like I, I do like that part, but but I try to be more inclusive if I'm talking about people as a whole, if that makes sense.

So it's more, I guess it's more like personal preference versus am I explaining this as an educator, you know, or like, so I guess, you know, neither one is wrong.

16:17

Obviously they're both, they both make sense in different contexts.

But yeah.

And this is a great line of thought to be thinking about.

What does this word mean to the people that we're connecting to?

Your lawyer friend doesn't like the word partner.

OK, great.

What's a new word we can create between the two of us to signal to our love in terms of the existential meaning making and the narratives that we create?

16:39

That's beautiful.

And those are the conversations we want to be having with our people.

And also thinking about how we're presenting to the world and the words we say and what that means when other people hear that.

I mean, these are great conversations that I think like, I just heard a comedy special about the is Taylor Tomlinson's comedy special came out, and she was talking about how she dated A polyamorous person for the first time in her life, a queer polyamorous person.

17:05

She was like, it was the most articulate, clear, mature relationship I've ever been in, you know, And it's because we're having this level of thought.

We're like, OK, well, what's the word you like that?

I like.

And how do people see like, rather than just being, yeah, that's my girlfriend, you know, like we're actually having these level of conversations be like, well, what does it mean?

17:26

What does it mean?

Yeah, yeah, no, that's so true.

That's so true.

Yeah.

And we can make up our own words too.

Like I don't know if you've ever had that experience, but like for, for when I, when I say like my partners as a whole, I'll be like partners just because it's the easiest term to, to report.

17:48

But then as far as just not having to explain.

But then if I talk about her specifically, I'll say my lady friend because she came up with that term for, for us.

So that was like, so I think it's cool that we can also make up our own stuff.

18:05

You know, we can make up our own words if we want to.

Absolutely, absolutely.

Yep.

And I know the relationship anarchy frame can also include sexual fidelity and it can include monogamy.

18:21

I think that's where I really appreciate the relationship anarchy frame of getting outside of even the the concepts of sexual and romantic connection being the most important thing out of our life.

I'm I hope by the time I die that my influence on the world will be many things, but one of them being the fact that we all already have multiple relationships.

18:47

I'd die happy if I think if we got to that, like that level of sentiment, I think if we thought about.

That because I.

I don't know about you.

Like whatever, regardless of like we just do.

Yeah, yeah.

Because like often the first question I get is how do you have time for that many people?

19:04

And I'm like, well, how do you have time for all your people?

Like, what do you?

But again, it's because when they hear partner, they think living together, you're on a mortgage, you're on, blah, blah, blah, you know, whatever.

So then they can't really like see the world of possibilities and creativity that is possible in terms of connection.

19:25

Yeah, definitely, definitely, yeah.

And it's an interesting, it's just such an interesting like conversation 'cause I just think about, you know, also what things have significance on a cultural level, but also they can have a different significance on a personal level.

19:47

So for me, for example, I wanted to propose to my lady friend, not because, not because obviously we, we don't get the legal privileges and we're not going to get financially entangled.

We're not going to live together.

The dream is to live next door.

20:03

She's 5 minutes away, but the dream is to live next door at some point.

But we I wanted to propose because I wanted to basically stand in front of everybody and be like this relationship is, you know, my life partnership and.

20:22

It's going to be like this amazing gay ass wedding and I think it's going to be really fun, but it's, you know, kind of traditional.

Yeah.

But also, when I did get married to my male partner, I always felt like there's part of this, like my queer part was missing from it.

20:48

It was such a hetero experience that I was like, this was a really fun party.

It's.

I like the idea of using a party to celebrate your relationship just because, like, why not celebrate love?

That's such a great thing to celebrate.

But I'm excited to do it queerly now.

21:08

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely, Absolutely.

It sounds like it's gonna be a great experience, a big party.

It is.

It's gonna be at a in Palm Springs, at a, at a hotel with a drag brunch and yeah.

21:24

And and she has a daughter too, so my stepdaughter.

So it'll be nice to like kind of merge in a sense for her to see that too.

So I'm very excited about that.

So yeah, I think, you know, our relationship with the state, I guess is always interesting.

21:43

I hear that right.

It's like, yeah, the seal of the American government is not the highest form of love for me.

I mean, maybe it is for other people, but it's not for me.

I mean, if we're getting tax benefits and like, you know, all of that, that's a whole other thing.

21:58

But that's not the highest form of love.

I don't.

Yeah, it just doesn't do it for me.

Have you seen the news?

You know, like, have you seen it?

I don't want them anywhere near my love.

Actually, they stink.

22:13

Like please.

Right.

Nowhere near any part of you.

Right.

He's away.

I know, I know.

And it's so sad.

It's like you can just see how repressed they are.

Oh yeah.

You know, like, and they just are.

22:31

Yeah, they're it's just disgusting how they try to impose their own crap on everybody else.

But yeah, no, I totally agree with you.

I totally agree with you.

Oh, I wanted to tell you so sorry to hear about the partner that moved away.

22:51

That's hard long distance.

I mean, it's so hard when somebody you've really love goes, you know, it's much longer farther away.

I know, I know.

And it was only just recently.

So I'm still just like I will say, the monitor that I'm looking at you on right now, she gifted me in her departure.

23:09

It was really hard to travel with.

So I have these like little mementos over here.

So she is here with me in that emotional sense.

But yeah, it is, it is a loss for sure when you like have to reorient to different frequencies of now.

23:25

Who knows when I'll see her in that way.

And just the long distance relationships of course work and I have many different connections that are long distance.

But there's a true loss in terms of the ease of intimacy and the connection that you get to have, especially the physical connections and all of that too.

23:43

So it's an adjustment period in that way.

So I appreciate that acknowledgement.

Yeah, it is just that it's a huge adjustment.

Yeah.

It's like your body has to adjust in a way in your heart and spirit and yeah.

24:00

Mm, hmm.

Mm.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Well, sending you lots of care.

Thank you.

I appreciate that.

I appreciate that.

I'm curious.

Kitty.

I know she's came.

She.

No, no, no apologies.

We can always pause for a cat.

This is this is part of it.

24:16

She's great.

She's great.

I'm curious, when you look back on your polyamorous journey, are there things that you laugh about now that used to make you cry?

And I feel like the answer is almost always yes.

But are there anything that comes to mind when you think about that question for you and your journey?

24:34

Oh my gosh, my first year, when I look back at that time, I'm like, who was that person?

Like she was, she was really wild and just just unacceptable.

Unacceptable.

I vetoed I, I didn't, I didn't really formally veto someone, but I but I pretty much vetoed it with my big feelings and.

24:58

That's real.

Yeah.

And didn't really regulate myself, you know, I just let those big feelings just kind of vomited them and didn't regulate, didn't think about how I was communicating.

And so that was that was not, that was really awful.

25:15

I was just not good at communicating when I did have big feelings.

And I'm still a big feelings person.

That hasn't changed.

But the way I communicate now and the way I can maintain my calm is very, very, very different because I don't lose control anymore.

25:31

I mean, I'm not saying I obviously I get upset.

I'm still sensitive, I would say, but I don't really.

I don't really.

Yeah.

But so that was really, I'm not ashamed of it, but you know, it's definitely not my finest, finest moments.

25:48

I was very jealous and I thought my jealousy was my partner's problem.

Yeah, how dare you do this to me, this thing that we Co decided we're going to do, but how dare you, the same person of all people in your freedom or whatever it is.

26:05

Yeah, I came from like a very conservative purity culture.

So way before I'm doing non monogamy even I'm monogamous and I, I remember one of my partner, not one of my partners, my partner at the time, because I was monogamous, said he wanted to get coffee with a college friend and I lost my shit.

26:22

I was like, how dare you go and sit with a woman and have quality time with her.

But again, coming from the paradigm that I was with purity culture, anytime alone with someone of the opposite gender, that's their framework opposites.

And that you can only be heterosexually attracted to people, by the way, right?

26:41

That's a threat because that's sexual energy and it's dangerous.

So that's where I come from.

More than coffee with that person is what you know, And he was very taken aback from it.

He did not come from purity culture.

He was like, what do you mean you're being controlling?

I'm like, no, this is not respectful to our relationship.

26:57

I was all up in it.

So then stepping into Na Menogami years later, there was still so much I remember my my first partner that still connected with me, Cooper, plant lover, like he went dancing with somebody, just dancing.

And I started crying in the restaurant when he told me it's like last night I found someone on the dance floor and I was like, oh, it's great for you.

27:20

I totally support that.

Like as I'm like crying, you know, trying to eat some food and I joke that my only veto, this is a joke.

I would make space for this, but my only veto would be if someone has the same name as me because I'm like, that's confusing.

27:36

This is like Nicole one or Nicole like I we'll make space if it happens.

But that's been my one joke of like, no, that's the veto.

That's hilarious.

That's hilarious.

Yeah.

I mean, gosh, that first year, I can see why some people start and don't want to continue because it is a lot to process and sometimes you might have the desire, but maybe it's it's a it's too much.

28:05

And not all relationships are built for it.

Not all, you know, people are built for it necessarily.

So, But yeah, it's, it's like if for me personally, I think just now practice, I mean actively, I guess practicing since 2011.

28:26

Yeah, it's, I can't, I mean, it's just, it's, it's just like I, I would never go back.

Like I, I don't, so I, it's, it's so rewarding now and it's honestly a little boring and that more boring than what people think, you know, it's not like I'm partying all the time or something.

28:46

It's a lot of, it's just like cozy time and PJS like, you know, but it's, it's so amazing.

It's so, oh, you were asking about pleasure too.

So I also grew up in a pretty conservative.

I grew up in Texas, but also like my family, they, I guess compared to a lot of other Iranians, they weren't as conservative, but they were still pretty conservative.

29:11

You know, there was.

And so that that was also like the sex negativity was very much part of my journey.

And I think I just got to a point in my 20s where I was like, you know what, this is not working for me.

I'm.

I was very, yeah, I was just very disempowered.

29:29

I got sexually assaulted and also like that that that just that sort of changed me as well because I was a virgin up until that point.

And I've been told that it was this really like amazing big deal.

29:44

And then it was take it.

I don't know.

I was kind of taken, I guess.

But then like I just, I guess not right away, but over time that really I think shifted how I felt and how I felt about my own, like womanhood and femininity and, and it made me really just in overtime take control over it.

30:06

And it took me years.

I mean, I was traumatized and it took me years to to speak about it at all to speak about it.

But but the empowerment, I think it was just a, it was just a turning point for me in my journey.

And so, so yeah.

30:24

And then just like seeing examples of femme people just taking control of their sexuality, that was so powerful.

That's always so powerful to see.

And so that those things are, I think, really helpful on, on on my journey.

30:39

But I think just generally, even if you don't know it at the time, it can plant seeds.

Oh, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Imagine.

Did that play a big role in your desire to become a psychologist and go down that path from your own healing journey?

Yeah.

30:56

I'm trying to remember I, I, I think so I think I probably didn't know it at the time that that was part of it, but I think it I did.

But I also, I was like when I growing up in Iranian culture, you're basically told there's two jobs out there.

31:12

There's medical doctor and lawyer.

That's of only two like you're allowed to do as as an immigrant.

And I was like, well, I guess stop medical doctor and but then I started, so I was volunteering at a hospital and I realized what I really liked was just talking to people.

31:27

Like that was just so rewarding.

I didn't like small talk.

I was like, give me big talk every time.

Tell me your hopes and dreams and fears.

And that's when I realized like, OK, maybe I want to help people more by talking because I don't think everybody necessarily connects with people in times of pain or and, you know, appreciates that like, like that profound connection, even if it is a rough emotion.

31:56

Totally, totally, absolutely how?

About you, how was your how was your journey to being a therapist or like what was what were important moments?

Yeah, well, so I'm first generation college student now doctor, so grad student too.

32:12

And so my parents were similar in the sense of saying you're either become a doctor of medicine or a lawyer.

Those are your two paths, Nicole, and you're going to go down either one of those.

So I was definitely thinking more medical.

I, during my college year, have a sexual assault experience, my first or my second sexual person ever.

32:34

I had one person I had sex with that I was dating, and it was one of those things where we have sex and after that we're like, oh God, let's pray, let's not do that again.

Born again virgin sort of thing.

So my first ever experience after that relationship was a sexual assault.

And that set me down the path of finally doing therapy for myself because in Christian land, therapy is satanic.

32:56

Like that is not good.

That is the devil.

You need to go see a pastor, not a therapist.

That was I, I know a lot has changed in the time and contemporary, but there's still more fundamentalist sectors like where I came from, where that was a lot of the teaching is do not go into that space.

33:14

But so that assault paired with my own healing journey and I'm going to theoretically going to Med school and then I start volunteering as a sexual assault counselor.

So that was interesting.

And I remember being in the ER for one of my cases that I was on, and part of my role at the time was to sit with the person who was getting a kit and to be with them and to support them and all the stuff.

33:37

Like, God, just thinking about amount of trauma you take on in that role without like training.

There was training, but like just wow.

Like I didn't have any of the frameworks I do have now as a therapist at that time in my life.

But I was sitting in there with the survivor and then the doctor came and was like, cool, we're going to do the kit now.

33:55

And like did the kit and then walked out and was like, great, I hope Nicole can help you feel better.

And walked out the door.

And it just like the coldness of that position to come in and be like, hope Nicole can make you feel better.

Straight up was verbatim what was said out of that doctor's voice as she walked out.

34:12

It was a she too, by the way, she walked out of the room.

That moment forever changed me because I said fuck that shit.

I will never be that job.

I will never be that job.

I want to sit right here by this person and be like, how are you feeling?

What's going on?

How like, where's your story at all that sort of stuff.

34:29

And then that's when I, I had to do the whole big like ego thing to because the whole Med field will be like, psychology is not a real doctor.

This is the brain mumbo gum.

So I had to lick of all that shit that I was like, oh, I'm first generation.

I'm going to be a real doctor.

34:45

Oh, I'm going to go to psychology school.

Oh, so isn't that gross when you look back?

When I look back, it's so gross.

But that was a whole thing for me to be like, let go of that field.

Who gives a fuck what other people think and go be a psychologist.

35:00

And I'm so glad that I did.

Oh my God.

Because I love the work that we do of sitting with people and supporting people.

And don't get me wrong, it is difficult and challenging and there's so much to it.

But like, that work is so much more transforming.

Like we need the doctor that does the kit, but the lack of care in the the systems that we've built for healing to have that sort of interaction with a professional, I was, I'm still disgusted.

35:27

Yeah, that's, that's really gross.

I actually also also did that the sexual assault after after the hospital when I realized like and it is really intense.

I mean, they did like 36 to 40 hours of training and you hear survivor stories and I don't think they give enough tools in that kind of position because it is so it's so intense.

35:51

And so, yeah, I, I totally, I totally hear you on that.

And yes, I, I love being a psychologist.

I feel like just, it's such a gift to be a witness on people's journeys and, and to be somewhat of a guide, but also, but sometimes also just a witness is really beautiful and to, to help people, you know, in a moment of, of really, of darkness for them.

36:19

And so I do love it and I do love, even though I know it has its, there are issues with psychology as a field.

It's very individualistic.

You know, there's been, there's been a lot of questionable ideas put forth throughout the years.

36:34

And so, but I mean, if you look at like some of the research that has been done in psychology, it's pretty amazing.

I mean, a lot of things that demonstrate that things like, you know, biphobia and, you know, homophobia and racism and sexism and all those things like affect us, affect our performance, they affect our mental health and they have to be acknowledged.

37:02

They're not, you know, they're not in our minds like, and just to have the, the knowledge to just be able to say like, no, you're actually wrong.

I mean, I guess there's people that don't, you know, and science has its issues.

I guess there's people that don't believe in science at all.

And that's that's a little different.

But if someone believes in science, like it does show a lot of the things that you know, they say are not happening.

37:25

Basically, you know that it's not like being queer, for example, or trans that causes you mental health problems.

It's.

The fact that.

Society treats you so poorly and the systems that you're in don't give you you don't get access to them.

37:41

So that's why not, because something's inherently wrong with being those identities.

Right, right.

When we plant a seed in a pot and it doesn't grow, we don't go well, the seed is just, you know, we're like, well, did it get enough sunlight?

37:58

Was the water?

What did we did we over?

You know, like it's wild to me that we do that in the field of psychology where we look and we're like suffering.

It's problem in them versus what's the context of the soil that they're in or any of these things.

38:15

Yeah.

When I first got into the field with that lens, then I was like, OK, how do I help trauma survivors?

Right.

And then kind of still not enough training on that.

But even there then I got to the other stage of like, OK, well, once we've kind of healed the trauma, what's after that?

38:30

Oh, pleasure, liberation, got it.

Like so that's kind of where I got into the non monogamy space.

As I started reading the ethical sled, all these other ideas started coming in because once you kind of go into the sexual healing space, you kind of come out on the other side of more liberation.

38:46

Not all of us, but at least that was my tunnel in and out and under.

I remember being in my class and there was this professor who really is deep in emotion focus therapy and like well known within that space.

39:07

And we were going over her slides on emotion focus therapy and she was like, this is how you work with couples.

This is how you work with couples.

And at this time in my career, I'm like earlier to non monogamy and I feel like I need to fight the system at every single corner, like every single opportunity.

39:24

You know, it's like Nicole, take a take a breath.

Like I love, I love that I'm so feisty and I'm ready for it.

But it's also like.

OK, so.

Anytime I heard couple, I was like, oh, let me ask if this applies to non monogamous structures.

So I'm like ready to like engage and see, because couple language is very dynamic and or dyadic in that way.

39:45

And so I was like, hey professor, you know, raise my hand.

She's standing and I'm like, could we apply these frames for EFT to couples work with non monogamous people?

She says, well, in my professional opinion, I've never seen non monogamy work.

40:04

It's always one person who wants it and the other doesn't.

Wow, in front of the whole class.

In front of the whole class and I'm sitting there as a non monogamous person going fuck me, you know, and so my my chest is like pounding, you know, here's this power moment.

40:20

Here we are and I go, well, doctor, I'm not a doctor yet, but her, I'm like, well, doctor, that's not actually what I've seen in my community.

I want it, my partners want it, and everyone else that I know wants it too.

You know what she said to me?

She's like great, well then you can write the book for it and change the subject and went on with the lecture.

40:39

And you're like I am do I am going to do that I.

Am going to do.

That actually that's amazing, but I mean that's amazing what you did.

Obviously what she did was was horrible but yeah, therapist biases about non monogamy are so wild.

40:58

Like there's actually been studies on that of, of clients reporting how they experience therapy and just like, you know, Pathol mainly being pathologized, mainly being told exactly that that something's wrong with you or something's wrong with your relationship.

41:17

And I it is.

I had the same thing when I was on internship that was said to me from someone who was also in a position of power in that facility.

And they said to me, well, I've never, they looked me right in the face.

41:32

Everybody knew I was polyamorous there and they looked me right in the face and said you.

I've never seen an example of a healthy non polyamorous or non monogamous relationship.

I'm like, why are you trying to tell me something?

Yeah, hello.

Stand right here.

41:48

What is this?

My relationship is amazing.

Like, what are you talking about?

But yeah, it is, it is.

It's something I do try to educate therapists about sometimes because it it, it really is just those automatic biases and that like, yeah, equating and, and, and again, it's not really supported by the research because the research shows it's different for different types of non monogamy.

42:17

But for polyamory specifically, unfortunately, I haven't seen, I would love to read your your paper because I haven't seen much on relationship anarchy, like research done.

But when they've looked at like they'll look at like swinging and open and polyamory and such.

42:33

And when it comes to polyamory specifically, it's like there's actually either equal on health indicators, but or higher, you know, so either like more satisfied sometimes with the relationship, more trust, more just companionate love.

42:53

And so it's just, I'm like, you're just, you're wrong.

Yeah, you're just flat out wrong sucked there, you know?

Yeah.

My dissertation, it's free on my website.

Listeners, I think that's really important.

43:08

I can send it to you afterwards.

It was.

AI can look for it then.

That's awesome.

Yeah, I'm definitely going to read that.

Thank you.

Yeah, yeah, it is a qualitative study, though it is not quantitative.

So when you look into the research on relationship anarchy in general in the field, there's nothing on it.

43:25

So then my team, you know, we were all like, OK, we're going to start here in terms of my chair and reader, we're like, let's start here with defining at first rather than trying to analyze in that way, 'cause we got to start somewhere.

So I hope there's some other therapist in school right now doing more like quantitative research on satisfaction and relationship anarchy because yeah, we just don't have anything on that.

43:49

That's where it breaks my heart when I do see the research where it comes into this birefication between monogamy and non monogamy, because we do see other things that go into a deeper and see how much of a difference there is from open to swinging to polyamory.

So I just get so frustrated when it's the binary because I'm like much under that that you're like putting into this big box and that how good is this research when it's just a binary?

44:12

But well, yeah, it is just.

A really good point.

That's a really good point.

Like a commitment to just like that discussion.

And yeah, like basically the, the values that we would think of that makes that Yeah, I mean that that is, that's something for me to think about too, because as I'm studying this, because I'm actually also doing qualitative work because there's not a lot on polyamorous by POC either.

44:40

There's, there's maybe over 100 and 50 or so studies on polyamory specifically, but there's maybe 5 or less works on polyamorous by POC.

And so that's something that I really try to focus on and it is qualitative.

44:58

But I appreciate you saying that because that gives me a bit of like a framework to think about of OK, you're right.

It's not just about that.

And like how do we capture that in research?

How do we, you know, maybe like recruit people who are on those different paths?

45:17

And so, yeah, it's an interesting conversation.

But you mentioned Ethical Slut and I'm curious because the latest paper that I was working on was about values of polyamorous bipod.

And I'm curious like, you know, obviously I do.

45:33

I, I did read Ethical Slut a while back.

So I don't know how how long it's been since you read it, but I'm curious, what do you remember about the values that it talked about?

I'm sure we talked about honesty communication, right?

So like maybe not the things that we always think of, but were there other dimensions that you remember besides those ones that like, I think people that start know those, you know, I don't want to discount their importance.

46:06

I don't want to discount their importance.

Of but Dossey and oh the other values yeah or dossier OK, yeah, First off.

And how liberation centered were they also sorry that?

Was a whole liberation second part of depression in terms of like identity factors and stuff like.

46:22

Well, anything that stood out to you that did seem like just about collective liberation.

Or anything.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, OK, so first, I am fangirling very hard.

By the time this comes out, I, I'm just going to fangirl with you in the sense that I'm having a free workshop on psychedelics in April, which will be many, you know.

46:44

This episode comes out many months later, but Dossie Easton, the writer, just signed up to come to it.

It's a free workshop.

I was like, fuck me, this is amazing.

Hello.

Like hi, like.

That's awesome.

Now I'm nervous.

I'm like, I literally just found this out last night.

I was like, Oh my God.

Like you're the elder, one of the elders of our community.

47:01

Like what?

So that's very cool.

Congratulations.

Thank you.

Amazing.

Oh my God, yes.

Huge honor.

Yeah, it is.

I'm still, well, OK, still integrating, nervous about my presentation now.

But, and I also will name that when I think about The Ethical Slut, I have also read the new Topping, the new Bottoming book and their other book Radical Ecstasy.

47:26

So how much do I know of that specific book versus what's mixed between the other four books that I just named out of them?

I can't tell you.

And I also haven't read it for the last five years.

So I'm just putting that in context of what I'm about to say, that it has not been a recent read.

I have mixed variables in terms of the answer I'm about to give.

47:44

What I do remember them speaking to is a liberation of our sexuality in a sense of it being a beautiful, sacred thing rather than a dirty, wrong, problematic thing.

Our sexuality is a gift and something that we can really flourish in within our communities.

48:02

And I remember them speaking to it as like a very collective thing, like all of us.

We so much so in ways that when I reread it a few years after the first read, it made me tear up because I felt like I was being seen immediately in like the sacredness that I see sex rather than this dirty raunchy thing.

48:20

I don't remember a lot of distinct understanding of intersectionality in terms of identities and how that shows up differently for people.

I don't remember them talking about that.

I would be curious if they talk about that in the bottom mean and topping book in terms of different plays that people do with that and how that impacts different role plays, especially with power.

48:38

That's something I I teach groups about sexuality too.

And when we start talking about power dynamics, the first thing I start with is a slide on how power dynamics are present in all relationships.

And we look like A at the marginalized identity wheel, you know, in terms of like the most like powerful to the most marginalized and start start with that frame.

48:58

I think any good kink education is to start with that frame first.

Yeah, maybe they hit that in.

There, but I don't it's been many years.

I'm curious why you asked 'cause it coming up in your groups in terms of like a lack or?

Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

49:15

I was just, I was just because I just did literally, like, I think it was last week, submit this paper.

So I've been really deeply immersed in the paper about polyamorous values.

And one of the suggestions 'cause I sent them to people that were interested in seeing it, one of the suggestions was to, to maybe compare it to the ethical slide, which didn't really like it's, is it is a future step of the article.

49:40

So I was just, I was just curious if if it was something you remembered.

But yeah, that's, I love what you said though, about just the sex being sacred and just that that's so that's such a that could feel like such a revolutionary thing when you first hear about it growing up in very sex negative contexts.

50:00

So that's that's really beautiful.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

I I think that's huge.

Our society.

Doctor Kim Talbert used the word and I'm gonna struggle with this.

Fetishizes, Did I do that?

That that was right.

That sounded OK.

50:17

Fetishizes.

There's a lot of syllables going on in there.

Fetishizes sex, which not to say that fetishes are a bad thing.

So I am a little bit conscious of that frame that she uses on that.

But there's just so much like stigma and and stickiness to it in a way that gets really weird.

50:36

Like it gets really weird in our culture about sex.

And so, yeah, like this vision of community building where sex isn't so heavy, it's it's beautiful.

Don't get me wrong.

We're not taking away any of the beauty.

But there's more levity with it.

And it's more play.

50:52

And they speak so much about playing.

And one of their big values that I have incorporated into my sex program is the the teaching that you can't pick and choose which feelings you have in your experience.

I think this came more through their book, Radical Ecstasy.

51:08

There was transcendent experiences through S&M.

And they talk a lot about how when you open your body up to feeling, you know, more pleasure, you're also going to feel more pain.

And those being 2 deeply connected things that you can't just start picking and choosing.

51:23

You want to feel the pleasure.

It's going to be both.

And otherwise you're just numbing, you know, you can't selectively numb.

So when I teach my program on that, I always say like, this comes from the Ethical Slut and the writers of those lineages, 'cause I think that's a really important thing, especially in our queer communities, to hold.

51:41

Definitely.

I totally agree with you.

I totally agree with you.

It's really, really important.

Yeah, yeah, it is.

It is so powerful to just liberate ourselves from that, you know, And of course, it's a lifelong process, but yeah.

52:04

Yeah, totally.

I was just listening to my episode that came out today with Chill Polyamory.

Genevieve, do you know them?

Oh yes, yes, I did their podcast too.

Yeah.

They're great.

Yeah.

They had asked me some of the things that I was processing at the time and I had just got back for like from this really fun sex party where there's this like, there's big pit and it's all queer, like bibock trans community within Chicago.

52:31

There's a lot so that we could talk about in terms of what the pit is like in that space.

But part of what I was naming was like, right, Like I'm having this scene with my partners in the pit.

And like, is there a day where I one day have kids and the next day I pick my child up from the preschool line?

And like, how do you navigate all of that in one human being?

52:50

Right.

And so I still think that is like a continued growth edge for myself.

Like on a holidays when my partners have thought about the ideas of bringing their parents together to meet each other, I'm like, oh, God, like there's almost this vision I want to keep with older generations of me being the, like, perfect partner for their child, which is more monogamous.

53:12

And if you meet the partners, you know, the parents of my other partner and all starts to come in this very like, I don't know, somehow that feels more real than kitchen table.

Like we're now doing like family, family, like family generational holiday.

Like that feels very like, I'm still going to deal with internalized shame.

53:29

Like, yeah, there's always going to be more right in terms of this process.

Definitely, definitely.

Yeah, that's definitely.

I can relate to that as far as, you know, having a relationship that is so, so dear to me, but is not really, you know, my, my some people in my family do ask about it, I think, and I really appreciate.

53:54

And they check in and there are people in my family that are definitely not just not just make their disdain very known.

And I think it's just been, it's been a process with people because giving people time, but then also recognizing like, OK, like I came out to you, you know, over a decade ago, I've given you a lot of time.

54:19

So at this point, I need to set boundaries and, and, and like for the wedding, for example, you know, I was told, don't do that because you've already been married.

So why would you do that?

And why would you invite your cousins?

54:34

Like you shouldn't do that.

And, and, and I basically had to be like, I'm, I'm not going to speak about this right now.

And I've already, because I've already told this person many times, like this is how you can treat me.

This is how you can, you know, And so I think just now at this point, it's more about saying I do want to be close to you.

54:56

And there's a lot of things that do make me feel close to you.

But then when you do this, it's, it makes me really disconnect from you and put my walls up.

You don't have to accept it.

It's completely, but you, you don't need to be doing that behavior either.

55:15

So you can go vent to someone else about your feelings.

Yeah, it's so painful when some of our closest relationships do things like that or families do things like that, right?

55:35

And there's so much space that we can hold for them.

And then at some point, there has to be that line, that boundary for your own self protection in terms of the ways that people show up, you know?

And so I'm really glad you drew that line.

I'm sure it was also not an easy line to draw.

55:52

Yeah, I mean, it's still in process.

Yeah.

But but yeah, like it's it's definitely, definitely a lesson in, in boundaries because at some point, you know, I thought about it and I'm like, other than these people that, you know, are my bio family, Like I wouldn't let anybody else that came into my life now treat me like this.

56:14

So why am I letting them treat me like this?

I'd be like you're done.

This is exactly, exactly, exactly, exactly, exactly right.

And that's where I like the frame of relationship anarchy.

That was one of my dissertation research pieces.

56:31

They specifically talked about applying the frameworks and the accountability and the boundaries that they have in terms of their romantic friendships and stuff like that into their family dynamics.

Why?

Part of that relationship anarchy frame is deconstructing the internalization of the different ways roles relationships have held in our lives.

56:52

And so why does family get this green light to just treat us like any way they want to?

No, let's start applying the same rules across all of them.

You know, we have rupture and repair processes.

We have transformative justice.

And also, there's a line.

There's a line, right?

57:08

If you continue to show up like this, I need to continue to space myself because of the harm that you're causing.

And you can't just keep doing that to me, right?

So I think I was really grateful to be brought in that frame as I was doing the research and like thinking about that, that, yeah, you need to hold that line with those people.

57:26

Yeah, no, thank you.

I appreciate that.

Yeah.

And and it's really, you know, this is where community is also so important.

Just reminding you, you know, just having people that in your life that support you wholeheartedly because then you realize, like I don't need to settle for this.

57:43

And like, I mean, I would rather be by myself and and then to settle for someone who's not going to treat me right.

So, you know, I'm good company.

I'd rather hang out with me.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

58:01

The more connections you have, the more resilience you have to shift who you're around, shift what is acceptable and in terms of taking on more challenging connections in your life, right?

When you have more community that really see you, the more you can with distance in that.

58:19

But yeah, that's, that's such an important piece here to know that like you, you're not beholden to that level of treatment all the time while also trying to hold space for everyone's growth journey.

That's a there's no, you know, clear line that I could put in a quick social media post on how to do that, you know, and it's very nuanced for everybody.

58:39

But I, what I think is really interesting is seeing like the further I go down this path, the more I feel like it's just, it's just intimacy.

Why is everyone so weird about it?

You know, like the further you get like I almost can't even feel the the space I used to for sure the space I used to be in from like the coffee date to like I'm like, why are like.

59:04

Just why are you so scared of this?

Yeah, just call.

Them just kiss them like what like.

For sure, for sure.

There is one thing I want to say that about my journey that I think is also important in in the conversation about pleasure and liberation pleasure.

59:22

So I was, I had the privilege for a good chunk of my life to be in a body that was relatively pain free, that was had relatively small amount of physical problems.

59:38

You know, I'd get hurt here and there, but nothing really major.

And then when I was in, and this is just a hell, I guess a trigger warning for health stuff.

But I got cancer in 2022 and that really changed a lot of how I felt about my body.

1:00:03

And also just.

The, well, the treatment of it and then there was the aftermath and the medication I have to take.

It's, it's very hormonal.

And so there's that.

And then I got really seriously injured.

1:00:19

And so like for a while I was not even able to walk just, and then even just laying down was so painful.

Everything was was like at a level 8 or 9 every day for a while.

And so I just lost my I mean, pleasure became so, so like it wasn't even part of my existence for a while.

1:00:42

You know, I feel like it was just which is, which is, which was like very different because again, I was lucky enough to have a relatively, you know, a body that I didn't really have to think about, right?

Like privilege is invisible when you have it.

I didn't really have to think about it too much and I could be active with it.

1:01:00

So it's nice.

I'm, I'm very lucky that I, you know, went to physical therapy and it did actually help me and I'm in a place now where I can get back to it.

But I also feel like, you know, I think it's important to say if you're in physical pain, like it's OK.

1:01:18

Also it, you know, sometimes it could just be about relief.

You know, maybe if you can't access pleasure, it's sometimes just relief can be a goal also.

So, so I just wanted to to, yeah, just mention that for my for my, because I think it's also an important part of my journey.

1:01:37

That's more of a recent, you know, recent developments.

Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you're here today.

Thank you.

Thank you.

My prognosis is very good.

Good.

So I do have and I only have a year and a half left on the medication.

1:01:54

I'm gonna, I'm gonna take a vacation when I'm done with this medication.

Yeah, like.

I hate this medication so much.

Yeah.

But yeah, it'll be, it'll be.

It's good.

It's better than cancer.

So I'm not gonna complete.

Absolutely.

1:02:09

I hear you.

I hear you, but that's so important to name.

That's.

Yeah.

Sometimes pleasure is not even something to think about.

You're right.

It is the relief or just the survival at that moment.

I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis.

1:02:26

And as I've had that since I was a child, so like, the connection to pain has been here constantly, and it's part of why I've been so interested in it of like, how do I get to the other side?

Some of the research I've seen, and I don't want to be like Pollyanna about it, but I have seen some research that building more of the neuronal pathways towards pleasure in terms of thinking like even when you have chronic pain instead of, you know, not to negate the reality, like it absolutely is happening.

1:02:55

That is not what I'm doing.

But also to spend time thinking about where do I feel pleasure in this?

And I understand there are days where that's not even possible because it is pure acne and we are in survival.

But when there are those pockets, how can we think about, OK, maybe this tea tastes really good.

1:03:11

I have that screaming flare up in my body that's happening right now, but this tea does taste good.

And to the more we spend time in that, I'm I'm conscious of how close that can get to a Pollyanna space.

But also holding the neuro psych of it all that the things we pay attention to are what neuronal pathways get myelinated and therefore act faster and quicker and easier to think.

1:03:34

And so I have seen some research that suggests like the more we think about those things that can actually create more of a pleasurable experience even through some of that chronic pain too.

But I am.

Consciously encouraging, yeah, that's, that's really encouraging.

And I, I'm going to look into that because, yeah, I feel like that that's, that's good to know because, you know, obviously I think everybody deserves pleasure.

1:04:00

So that's, that's, you know, good to know that there are ways we're learning about ways that really it can become more accessible.

And that's, that's so huge, you know, So I love that.

1:04:16

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

I mean, even the research on the placebo effect stuff is always just mind boggling to me in terms of like, right, if I think this Med is working, then it can work like what what's right?

So I think we're only just scratching the surface here of, of the power of our thoughts and what that can create and what we focus on and all of that.

1:04:41

Which Speaking of which, you, you spoke to how much you're enjoying polyamory, how life giving it is.

I'd love to hold space for some of the beauty that you're feeling, the joy to hold space for that too.

Yeah.

I mean, just like knowing that, you know, I have just people that are just so in my corner.

1:05:05

They're my emergency contacts.

Yeah.

And you know, I think so there's a lot of aspects of when I've heard about solo polyamory, and I'm not an expert on that by any means, but I do relate to a lot of the concepts within it.

1:05:24

For example, being your own primary partner as well as I loved living alone.

I lived alone when I was in grad school for 5-6 years.

So the idea like being living alone for me is not just about my relational self.

1:05:42

It's also about just the care that I need the the not so much care, but I guess sometimes care, but also just collaboration that I need to like maintain a household.

So I think really my nesting partner is the only partner that I I think I could live with, But but, and we both agree, like my lady friend and I agree.

1:06:05

But yeah, so, so I I know.

Does that answer your question?

Yeah.

I mean, you're Speaking of the, the joy in terms of the, IT sounds like the security of the web of the connections that you have and what sort of joy that brings into your life.

I grew up in a family that we always teased each other so it was a sign of love and sometimes my two partners they gang up on me teasing.

1:06:29

Yes, it is so fun, I love it so much.

Yeah, yeah.

I always joke that they formed a union.

I'm like, oh, the union's talking again.

They got lots of thoughts and feelings.

Cult of Cult of too.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:06:45

Three.

Yeah, 3 or 4 sometimes depending on how many get together that's.

True, that's.

True, and the more.

Of join in.

They're more powerful.

You know, it's also humbling too when you get 4 people that look at you and you're like, yeah, Nicole and conflict.

You do do that and you're like shit.

1:07:04

You're like rude.

Yeah, exactly.

I was like actually you 4 are wrong.

You know like at some point the numbers start, you have to confront the numbers and just feel like OK got it.

Thank you for calling me and I am here.

Hello.

I know there's that moment of, oh, crap, this is something I did in the other relationship.

1:07:25

Dang it.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, You're like, I hope they don't talk.

No.

But even if they don't like, you know.

Yeah, exactly.

You know, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's bad enough.

Yeah, people think they want more sex until you see all the things that comes with and then you're like, oh, accountability is a big part.

1:07:44

Got it, Got it right, right.

But it is so cute.

Those moments that they like can play with each other and joke and laugh about it all those, those are the sweet moments of it all.

Pedamores, pedamores, OH.

1:08:00

I haven't heard that term that's.

So cute, yeah.

Animals of your partners too, that you don't live with, so you get to see them.

So for a while I didn't have cats and so it was really nice to to hang out with my lady friend's cats.

But she has like a little kitten and so I get like a kitten need me.

1:08:18

And you know, it's just nice to it's nice to hang out with each others animals that maybe I don't want to necessarily live with this animal, but they're wonderful to visit and to connect with.

And so totally, that's another, definitely another joy and just doing fun things together.

1:08:39

Like the other day we went to see Josh Johnson.

Yeah, the comedian.

I saw him recently in Chicago.

Yeah, you did awesome.

Yeah.

It was an improv place.

And he was just so funny.

And, and the four of us were like crying from laughing.

1:08:55

So cuz as my, my partner's, my metamor was there also.

So there was four of us.

And so, yeah, it was just, it's just fun, like sharing joy together.

And, you know, in this world, I think just the more connections we can have, you know, that are like, you know, that they're solid, You know, because I'm, I'm like the person, I'm like the kind of person that I want to stay friends for a lifetime.

1:09:20

Like I'm like, wait, you, I don't want to be friends anymore.

Like what happened?

Right, right.

So like, like, like, you know, and I know that some I'm working on it because I know people, some people are there for seasons, you know, and not necessarily the whole time.

1:09:35

So that's OK.

But but it's nice when you have whether that's partners because like, like I feel that way with, you know, people that are, you know, I, I would say friend is not the right term, but they're not partners.

1:09:51

They're just connections that are really deep and meaningful and that they're solid.

Like, I don't think we would like we, we would, we would try to work through things and maintain a connection, you know, because there's that healthy foundation and obviously you never know what could could happen.

1:10:09

Obviously things could change, but but but yeah, just feeling like your connections are solid.

I think especially in this world where there's so much chaos happening.

You know, we're in March 2026 right now.

So Trump just attacked my country of Iran of like less than a week ago.

1:10:29

And there's constantly stuff happening with, you know, queer people, trans people and people of color with ice.

Like, there's just so much, I mean, I can't even speak to all of it, obviously, but there's just so much chaos and destruction.

1:10:46

So I think connection is what's going to get us through it.

Yeah, yeah.

So that's the that's probably just the biggest joy, just laughing together and bearing joy and sorrow together.

Absolutely, absolutely.

1:11:03

I have this art piece that has this big fish eating all the small little fish and it's like they're very scared and they're running away or swimming away, I guess.

And then in the bottom panel, it has all the little tiny fish coming together to eat the big fish.

1:11:22

And it says stronger together.

And I, I've looked at that photo during many moments to try and remember that, that the more of us that can come together, the stronger we are against these systems that often feel unmovable and huge.

And in many ways, they are bigger than any one of us.

1:11:37

Absolutely.

But the more we can come together, the more strength we have in that.

And so, yeah, community building is so essential.

And so I'm noticing that a lot of my work is tending to go towards conflict resolution, because that seems to be.

The.

Biggest sticking place of community is how do you actually go through the inevitability of conflict and all those dynamics and the more people that come in and how, how do you hold people accountable?

1:12:02

What does that look like, especially in unstructured communities, which don't have like formal, you know, boards or things of accountability.

It's just fascinating.

The more I get into that sort of space of like, right, So we need to band together, we need community.

How do we actually do this?

1:12:18

And the messiness of it all because it's messy.

Yeah.

Do you have like, I, I love that idea because I agree with you.

I mean, how many times are do people come together for a good cause and then it's just destroyed because though there's conflict and people, you know, for various reasons, it just ends.

1:12:38

So I'm curious like is there a particular approach or like theory that you use for conflict resolution?

Or is it just kind of maybe just tailored to each person?

I'm I'm just, I'm just curious about the style.

Yeah, first, we're coming to minus humility.

1:12:55

I'm just humbled by it all.

Like, humbled, humbled, humbled.

And can we all have humility?

Then I think a lot about Dean Spade.

Do you know him?

It sounds familiar, but not too much, no?

Okay, Dean Spade is a trans lawyer who's done a lot of work in activist spaces and also wrote the book Mutual Aid.

1:13:16

And then recently in the last year came out with a book called Loved Love in a Fucked Up World, which is really great about community building because he speaks to how many times he's seen exactly what you're seeing.

People come together for different activist movements.

And then it also completely fell apart because of the lack of conflict skills or how romance comes in and the complexity that all comes in those spaces.

1:13:39

And his episode is the most played on the show of all ties.

So I think there's a lot of resonance with the relationship anarchy community, Dean Spade, community building and conflict resolution, all of that.

And then beyond that, I think one of the biggest things we can do, you know, people talk about nonviolent communication.

1:13:57

I also think that even somatic work is probably going to be the biggest thing that we can ever do in that space, right?

Because in conflict we get into our trauma responses, fight, flight, freeze, fawn.

So we can come first back to the body and at least know when we're starting to get activated.

1:14:16

When we start to get activated, we're no longer in our prefrontal cortex, dear listener.

So that's the the prefrontal cortex is the part of the brain where we make executive thinking decisions and can use logic and rationale and all that sort of stuff.

The second we get activated, the more like older parts of our brain, the amygdala, it comes on and we start acting different, right?

1:14:40

And so how much, how better could we be in conflict if we were actually connected to our bodies and started to notice like, oh, wow, my chest is tightening.

I'm feeling like this clenching in my jaw right now.

I'm feeling this activation energy.

1:14:56

Before we continue this conversation, I'm going to go for a walk, I'm going to go for a run, I'm going to scream into a pillow and I'm going to take a jog or whatever it is.

Like I do think that would even, you know, even before we get into more of the like cognitive frames of the words and the language and reflective listening and all that sort of stuff, I think the body, if we could come back to the body, we'd be in a much better place.

1:15:21

Yeah, that's, that's where psychology has neglected.

I think, you know, the body, it's like that's not just about the mind.

They're very connected.

That's why I really like mindfulness and the focus, which is is, you know, originally from Buddhism.

1:15:38

It's not that we created it, but I do like, I do, I do think that that's helpful in the things you're talking about, just regulating our emotions, naming our emotions.

And I completely agree.

That's a first step because we're so disconnected from ourselves.

1:15:54

We we're so socialized to for different reasons to not, you know, share our feelings and, and to sort of like push them back, avoid them.

And so just like learning to name them at 1st and recognize them, I think is so, so important.

1:16:11

Absolutely.

And before you even get to trying to work on the external.

Yeah, for a lot of people.

I mean, some people, I guess are lucky enough that they learn to name their emotions.

I think now with, well, I love seeing how people are raising kids more with, you know, expressing their feelings.

1:16:31

And I'm like, oh, this kid is so like, I know, right.

I know.

Like they're better, better.

They're they're like more regulated than adults and they're 8.

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

That's good.

1:16:47

I trust them.

I trust them to create a better world than we did.

Yeah.

Yeah, yes, that's true.

And the beauty, The thing is we Co regulate.

We know that as therapists, right, a huge job of our role is to Co regulate with somebody.

And So what would it mean to also Co regulate right, the body with other people?

1:17:06

I think, again, my dissertation, there was someone who mentioned the concept of a fishbowl for conflict, which I found really fascinating.

In their relationship anarchy community, when there was conflict, they would do a fishbowl style.

So they would have the two or more people who were in conflict in the center and the rest of the group watching them and then would give feedback.

1:17:24

Could you imagine?

Sometimes I try to hold that, like when I'm in conflict with my partner and I'm thinking like some of the most bad thoughts that you could think of, of like this person again or whatever, fill in the blank.

Like how would I feel if his mom was right here?

Wow.

1:17:42

I bet you I wouldn't be treating him like this, you know what I mean?

Like or my mom.

Watching.

That to him or whatever I think though that witnessing so it is interesting to think about the nuclear family capitalization of property and the way that that's put us into these silos where like yeah now a lot of our conflict also does happen in these like small sectors where we're not being witnessed by the rest of the community where if we were which I've yet to do that I've yet to try like fishbowl style processing with communities and I think that's something that like turns me on I'm like wow OK I'm excited to try that like this my turn ONS have.

1:18:17

Changed a lot of problems.

Well, actually we did.

We did that in our grad program.

We did fishbowl was a guy.

And I do it with students.

I mean, it's very nerve wracking, but you learn a lot.

Yeah, you learn a lot.

I mean, it's it is, but it is.

1:18:32

Nobody likes doing it in the moment.

Totally, and I am running my pleasure liberation groups.

It's psycho Ed, but it's also a process group, which is a psychologist, good one.

So that listener, if you're not familiar, that means we do actually have a lot of group conflict that's inevitable and a part of the process.

1:18:52

And it happens when you bring any group of people together and it's OK, but it's also highly uncomfortable when we start to do conflict in a group because it's, yeah, there's multiple people watching.

You have that.

Hey, you did a microaggression.

What a, what a big, what a big.

I remember the first time I went to a processing group as a client and they were being so direct with each other.

1:19:13

I was so, I was so scared because they were like, I, I feel like you're upset.

And then there I didn't say anything.

I was so nervous.

I was just sitting there like sweaty.

And the, the so this lady was like, I hate it when new people come and don't talk.

And then I was just like, really like, can I just disappear?

1:19:30

And then after like 3 months, by the end, I was like, I was saying stuff directly to other people.

And that was really, it's, it's, it taught me so much.

Yeah.

So that's exciting that you're doing a process.

Group.

I love that.

1:19:45

Yeah.

Thank you.

And, but I, I, the way I do it, so I usually put myself in the fishbowl first and then they can that and sort of model what, you know, what it looks like.

And then usually that helps because one, it's, you know, it's vulnerable, but also because they can maybe think of examples it gives them like not a template, but maybe some ideas of, you know, what they could do.

1:20:11

So I find that that that helps.

And I try to do it for the, you know, either the same time as them or maybe even a little longer and then like process that afterwards.

What was it like to see me do it?

But yeah, I, I, I think it's a great tool.

1:20:28

So do do you, when you do that, do you wait until a moment where you need to be called in or do you just like open up the floor for feedback or do you model a potential example of you making a mistake or how do you kind of initiate that?

OK, so it's a little different because it's not focused on conflict resolution, it's just on So I trained, I trained marriage and family therapists.

1:20:53

So so they basically I'm doing therapy like I'm doing mock therapy essentially where I play the role of a therapist.

And yes, sometimes I might make a mistake on purpose just to like see, you know what you know or something that IA lot of times it's something that I actually said or did you know?

1:21:12

And so I'll ask like, what was, what was good about what I did, what wasn't, you know, so that's so I do, I do do that process, but it's not necessarily for conflict.

It's more for, but it's a similar idea, I think, because it's looking at how do you relate in this way, right?

1:21:28

So how do I relate in this way of this new role versus in this type of situation, right.

Conflict.

It's similar kind of idea I think.

OK.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, totally, totally.

Yeah.

And I think.

1:21:44

That's great.

I encourage you to do it.

I I prove.

I know, I know, I do tell people call me in at any point and please give me feedback.

But I think there's still such a power dynamic.

So I think role modeling it early on is probably a really good idea of like, hey, like, how could I have showed up better?

1:21:59

And like, like, like sitting in the awkward silence until someone critiques you, just like however long we need to sit here, someone, you have it in there.

You're just you holding it back, you know?

And those are the fun moments as a therapist where you have to sit with your own discomfort with the silence and just wait and wait.

1:22:20

I know, I know.

It's, it's so fun in class because you know, they're, they, they always laugh because they will be quiet and I'll just stare at everybody really awkwardly.

And I'm like, I've been a therapist for years.

So this is way more uncomfortable for you than it is for me.

1:22:37

So I could be here all day and inevitably someone breaks the silence.

Absolutely.

I love group dynamics.

I think I'll spend the rest of my life like studying group dynamics and how to facilitate those spaces because I, I, I do, I do believe we grow the most in groups.

1:22:53

I know that in our system it's very individualistic and the one-on-one space has a lot.

There's a lot to do in that space, but I really find groups to be like much more of a liberation based process for me.

Definitely, definitely.

1:23:09

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.

So that's awesome, though it sounds like you're doing very awesome work.

Yeah, it sounds like you too.

What a joy.

What a joy.

Yeah, yeah.

What a gift.

I know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It really is awesome.

1:23:27

Well, we've covered so much.

This feels like a good time to check in with you and take a deep breath together and see if there's anything else that you want to share with the listeners.

1:23:42

Otherwise, I can bring us towards a closing question.

I am a little bit inconsistent on social media, but if you do want to follow me, I am Doctor Batty.

So it's just spelled out Doctor Batty BAD i.e.

1:24:01

And yeah, I think that's and it was really a pleasure talking to you today.

So thank you so much for this opportunity and thank you for all the amazing work you're doing.

Yeah, and thank you to your work too.

I'll be excited to see the research that you include with Relationship Anarchy, so keep me updated on it.

1:24:21

Yes, yes, I want to see.

I I definitely go and read your dissertation too.

Honored, Honored. 200 pages.

I hope you have fun in there.

I will, yes.

Well then, the last question that I ask everyone on the show is what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

1:24:49

Telling people how you feel about them, telling them when you love them.

You know, I think about the, there's a song when I was growing up by Stevie Wonder.

It's like I just called to say I love you.

And I'm like, that should that should be a thing all the time, You know, just letting people know that you care about them.

1:25:12

I think is.

I would like that to be more normalized.

Yeah, and the ripples of what that would create right when we have more of that free love and gratitude flowing through our communities rather than holding back.

1:25:30

Yeah.

In my training with feminist relational cultural theory, they often talk about the relational paradox which in my groups.

I know about it.

Yes, I love that.

Yes, yes, yes.

Great for the listener who doesn't know, they talk about the relational paradox as the the fear that we have of disconnection, which comes back to our social needs.

1:25:54

We're social creatures.

We, you know, have grown together as a social being and evolutionarily have needed community for so, so long.

And we still do to this day.

And whenever we're in relationship, there's the possibility of losing that connection and feeling that threat of disconnection and the loss of that security.

1:26:15

And so when something comes in like maybe saying I love you, where that might be quote, UN quote too much for the other person, is that going to make them leave or panic or go away?

We call that the relational paradox because you're facing the threat of the disconnection of the other person.

1:26:30

If you say the thing you want to say, and if you hold it back and you don't say it, then you're disconnecting from yourself in the relationship.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And then you're kept in that cycle.

Ironically, you're scared of them, them knowing that because there's shame.

1:26:49

But by keeping yourself out of that connection, you're actually, there's actually more distress and and more isolation.

So yeah, it's it's hard to get out of that cycle, but it is possible.

1:27:05

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

I love Brene Brown's metaphor of the marble jar that she's used with her daughter.

She talked about that in a Ted talk I saw many years ago of like thinking about vulnerability, kind of like a jar of marbles.

And when you have a good interaction with somebody and they've really held you in a positive way and with respect and kindness that you could put a marble in the jar.

1:27:28

And the more you have a full jar of marbles, the more you can tell deeper, more personal things.

And I really do love thinking about it that way of like, yes, there is, you know, a space where if you say I love you or something like that, it might be really challenging for someone that you have an empty marble jar and you have no like, like safety demonstrated of that connection of them being able to hold you.

1:27:46

But the more you have those experiences, the more you can keep growing.

And you only really know until you find out you got to kind of put your toe in the water and assess from there.

So I think it's such a beautiful invitation that you brought to all the listeners in terms of continuing to take that moment of risk in terms of expressing your love and be more open with the people about what you're feeling.

1:28:07

Even thinking about the process group that you mentioned where there's so many thoughts in the here and the now about how you're feeling about people.

And so much of us, we hold that inside.

We people please, we fawn and we don't name, but the the pleasure is on the other side in terms of naming, whether it's a sexual desire, right, or any desire or feeling that you're having, being able to name that in caring ways and community.

1:28:29

Of course, we don't want to just share everything.

There's nuance, right?

But to really share how you're feeling so people can know you, attune to you, grow with you and challenge you back.

I mean, yeah, that's a lifelong process for sure.

Definitely, definitely.

1:28:44

Yep, Yep, I totally agree.

I totally agree.

Well, it was such a joy to have you on the podcast today.

Thank you for.

Joining me, yeah, it was really fun and I I appreciate you.

Have a wonderful rest of your day.

1:29:01

Yeah.

Thank you.

And.

Hope all the listeners have a great day.

Too.

Yeah, of course.

Dear listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Modern Anarchy.

Thank you for sharing this episode with your friends, with your lovers, with your community.

1:29:20

Truly, it means so much to me and I am so grateful that you are here.

If you are wanting to release jealousy in your non monogamous dynamics and step into a conversion and pleasure filled connection, you can read my book The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide for free on my website.

1:29:42

There you will also find so many other free resources, including worksheets on how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non monogamous dynamics and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure filled sex and relationships.

1:30:06

So head on over to modernanarchypodcast.com to find all of those free resources and I look forward to seeing you next week.