276. Sexual Pleasure in a F**ked up World – Jason Best

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Jason. Join us for a conversation about tapping into pleasure during these complex times. Together we talk about prioritizing time for sexual pleasure as new parents, when your therapist is at the sex party, and showing up for our local communities. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.

I'm so delighted that you are here for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, author of The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and The First Study on Relationship Anarchy, and I teach students from around the world how to craft pleasurable sex lives and non-monogamous relationships.

Dear listener, oh, the title of this. I'm totally playing on Dean Spade's book, Love in a Fucked Up World, right? I just like, ah, like the sexual pleasure in a fucked up world. There's so much more to talk about here, so this title feels a little cheeky with, uh, Dean Spade. Um, if you haven't listened to my episode with Dean Spade, just scroll a few episodes below this one.

You'll see it's called Love in a Fucked Up World. That is their title of their book. If you haven't read that, oh my goodness, hello. Stop everything you're doing and go secure that book at your local queer anarchist bookstore, please. Uh, I'm sure many of you have already listened to it, but yeah, this episode with Jason is so powerful, and I love that Jason, during the episode, reminded all of us that, right, the Puritans, the people who colonized this land, right, they hated rest and pleasure, okay?

It was work, work, work, work, work, work, work for God, right? So dear listener, just a big invitation for you to take that full breath- And exhale it out and really feel the pleasure of that exhale. Take a break today. Take some time to masturbate. Take some time to really eat a delicious meal, to feel the sun on your skin and remember that the f- that people who colonize this land hated that.

It's revolutionary, okay? It is revolutionary to dance, to feel your joy, to be someone who can really hold the nuance that this world is fucked up. And part of our revolution and our activism is holding onto the pleasure, and this is keeping our nervous systems in a space where we can dance and serve, right?

And so just so much gratitude for Jason and the work that he's doing, and this invitation that he brings into this conversation for all of us to slow down and to feel our pleasure. All right, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and all of my free worksheets.

I've got free worksheets on the pleasure wheel for more sexual language, designing commitments in your non-monogamous relationships, my dissertation on relationship anarchy. I have so many free resources all at modernanarchypodcast.com, linked in the show notes below. That's also where you'll learn more about my upcoming non-monogamy group.

We have two more weeks, y'all. Two more weeks before we start. Wild. Wild. I'm so excited to see this year's cohort and class coming together. And dear listener, if you're new to this conversation, hey, 16-week group program's all about non-monogamy. If you wanna hop in, we still have a couple more spots left, and all the links for that information of the structured learning program and what that entails and what it looks like is all in the show notes below.

So for those of you who are ready to learn and don't wanna have to wait till 2027 when I run this group again, you can sign up below and learn more about my non-monogamy program starting up the last week of August in two weeks. Ah, so excited to see you all. Okay. And also with that, I wanna say a big thank you to my Patreon supporters.

I could not do this show without you. You've been supporting me for the last five years to make this type of educational content for the world, and so thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you for joining me, and thank you for supporting me in all my personal shares in that space. And with that, dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love, and let's tune in to today's episode

Dear listener, there's a space already waiting for you where you are invited to let go of every old script about sex and relationships and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure, empowerment, and deep alignment. I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together, we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real transformation possible. And I'll be right there with you, guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure and visit modernanarchypodcast.com/pleasurepractice to apply.

And so the first question that I love to ask each guest on the show is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:06:13] Jason: I am Jason Best. I have an LCSW. I am a therapist who is super geeky and weird. Um, I want to be funny. I, I... it is not through lack of effort. Certainly, like, there's a lot of attempts at humor, and some of them succeed.

[00:06:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:34] Jason: I am a father of two small children whom I love, and who also exhaust me constantly. Um, and yeah, I mean, I think that I have started a therapy practice, um, specializing in depression, anxiety, bipolar, um, with the, um, queer and kinky and poly communities, um, that's really grown and grown, and now, you know, we serve all ages.

We have, um, all kinds of folks, lots of people with specialties in neurodivergence and in working with BIPOC communities. And um, it's gone from just me to this... literally this week we hired our 50th therapist, so. Wow. Congratulations.

[00:07:20] Dr. Nicole: Um,

[00:07:21] Jason: yeah, in like five or six years here, so it's kinda wild.

[00:07:24] Dr. Nicole: I mean, that's an indication of how much our community is growing.

[00:07:29] Jason: Yes. There's such a need, and that's, that has been really interesting to watch, like, become more popular and become more known, um, and also for people to feel more comfortable looking for therapists that look like them and- Yeah ... you know, finding representation in the, the therapy room. So that's been pretty great.

Yeah.

[00:07:50] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely, yeah. Every day I get people joining my educational newsletter or downloading free worksheets and all that sort of stuff, and it's such a moment where I, I get the notification, I'm like, ah, like, there's more people joining the movement and they're here. And I, I wish I could give that experience to so many of my clients who feel shame and isolation in these systems- Mm-hmm

where there's so much pressures against us. And I'm like, ah, there's more people joining. Like, like, ah, like you see it, I see it. I'm like, there's more people- Yeah ... coming. Like, it's happening. The, the snowball is already rolling, you know? Yeah. The cat's out of the bag, and this, you know, expansion is happening in terms of sex and relationships.

[00:08:27] Jason: Watching people become more authentic is the coolest thing. Yes. And you know, people finding themselves, being, you know, brave enough to ask some of those questions about who am I, and do, do I really like this, and what do I like, and who, whom, who am I into? And then, you know, as we make changes, the changes change us- Oh, yeah

and, you know, we keep going, so.

[00:08:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's exciting. Yeah. And this is your second time on the podcast.

[00:08:53] Jason: My second time on the podcast.

[00:08:55] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Yep. Welcome back.

[00:08:58] Jason: Thank you. Mm-hmm. Now I can say friend of the podcast. Oh, yeah. That's how that works. Yeah.

[00:09:03] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Second, yeah. Yeah. And your pra- Friend

[00:09:04] Jason: of the pod, right

[00:09:05] Dr. Nicole: Totally.

And your practice is well-known. I remember after your episode some people would come up like, "Oh, you recorded with my therapist," or, "Oh, you recorded with Jason." I'm from BEST. I'm like, oh yeah, so you're well-known within the community in Chicago.

[00:09:18] Jason: Yeah, yeah,

[00:09:18] Dr. Nicole: yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:09:19] Jason: Yeah. It's, that's been kind of, uh, really fun too, and it's, it's one of those things where we have so many, so many therapists that I really admired and thought were very cool when I started are, you know, some of them are working for the practice now.

And so we have, you know, so many alums from Howard Brown- Yeah ... and so many people from, you know, really great, uh, practices. People that left other practices to come to us and yeah, it's, it's great.

[00:09:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And so in the time since our first recording and now, how has your relationship to pleasure shifted and changed?

[00:09:59] Jason: Oh, man. So- I know. Um, so I have a son now. Mm-hmm. When we first recorded, I had, uh, just my daughter Valor- Mm-hmm ... who is, um, five at this point. Valor is a, a character and is really funny. She, she loves to, uh, come up with scenarios. Uh, she will stand on top of the ottoman and go, "Ladies and gentlemens, okay, here's what we're gonna do.

You are a demon, and I'm the demon hunter." And you know. Uh, um, our son is- about to have his second birthday

[00:10:38] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:10:38] Jason: um, he's like a little bit away. And, uh, when I say goes through life face first, um, I could not be more literal about that. Like, literally just wants to run into everything- ... um, crash into everything.

Mm-hmm. Right before Christmas he broke, um, our French doors by, like, just head-butting them. Uh-

[00:11:00] Dr. Nicole: Oh, no.

[00:11:01] Jason: Luckily, he just got a little scratch, so he was, he was fine. The French doors were not fine and had to- ... had to get a repair. So-

[00:11:07] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:11:08] Jason: um, but yeah. I mean, it's, it is been a little wild. I think as a parent, um, before my relationship to pleasure had changed because it was, oh, there's so much less bandwidth and so much less time- Ah

and so much less focus. And then, um, one thing my wife and I have talked about a lot is that we weren't prepared for the leap from one to two. Like, like, you know, we had obviously have parent friends. People had said that it was harder, but we were thinking in terms of, um, additive. It's like, oh, we have one kid.

We add another kid's worth of work. That's gonna be difficult. It's exponential. It was like, oh, so many things are now so much harder because they nap at different times. They want different types of foods. They... You know, like, one will be getting calm and the other one will be upset, and we'll upset- Right

the one that's getting calm- Right. ... and vice versa. Um, for the last six months they've been sleeping in the same room, and my, uh... You know, nothing in the world makes Gideon happier than sneaking over into his sister's bed and stepping on her head at night. He wants to be close and he's like- Yeah ... "Oh, I'll just step on your head until you wake up and play with me."

And she- Aw ... she just for some reason doesn't love it, so.

[00:12:22] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:22] Jason: Um, so that level of like intensity and drain, it makes it very hard to focus on pleasure. It makes it very f- hard to focus on connection. We've had to really work at, you know, like we've, we have some lovely friends who've done, um, overnights with the kids a couple times so that, you know, we could get away.

We've, we've had to be more, um, conscious and like really carving out some dates and some times, um, because even, you know, on an average day, even 10 minutes for us to like have a conversation that's not being interrupted by some kid yelling or climbing on us is incredibly difficult. Um, and there's, there's days where we don't get it.

There's days where it's like- Mm ... you know, we're just kind of shouting logistics at each other-

[00:13:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:13:08] Jason: you know, as we pass in the night, you know, both of us like wrestling a child. So-

[00:13:13] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:13:13] Jason: so yeah, I mean, I think that it is, um, uh, you know, like the, it's a tough time at the moment for me personally. I would say the nice thing is we can already see from friends with kids that like, you know, typically as they get to three, four, five, th- like some of that pressure goes off.

Yeah. They need less, like imme- they can then entertain themselves a bit more. Yeah. Like, you know, things get a little, they start to sleep through the night more consistently.

[00:13:37] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:38] Jason: Um, you know, so it's a little bit, uh, better in all these different areas, but it is, it is I think, uh, um, a season for being very intentional with like, "Hey, if we don't get this, we're gonna pop, so we have to make sure that we're getting some time together," or we're-

[00:13:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm

[00:13:54] Jason: you know, we're gonna sacrifice some sleep because we need to get time where we're talking to each other and being intimate.

[00:14:01] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:14:01] Jason: Um, and you know, and if we don't get that, we're gonna die, so.

[00:14:05] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I mean, this reminds me of a lot of my research on relationship anarchy and the different scripts and stories that we're sold in our society, and there's definitely this nuclear family perfect, you know, two kids, white picket fence, and everything is joyful and happy.

And the reality is under these systems of capitalism and the complete isolation most of us have from our multi-generational family systems, it is extremely difficult to raise one child, two. Now we're talking about exponential demands- Mm ... right? The group psychology, as you noted, of all of that. And so yeah, to try and do that in a two-person household is extremely difficult under these conditions.

And so it's that in congruence with what we're sold of like, "Hey, this will be happy and beautiful," and all of this. Right. And, and it can be when you have lots of money to buy nannies and other sorts of community, right? So that's the catch. Sure. Um, but if you don't have that capacity, it's like- Trying to build that in community with other people can be so challenging.

And so I, I hear- Yeah ... I hear you in the, in the process of having to be so intentional to quite literally the frameworks of 10 minutes. 10 minutes.

[00:15:23] Jason: It is, uh, wild how little free time sometimes you get, and it's, you know, like we signed up for it. Like we knew- Yeah ... we knew that we were gonna be busy. There was no expectation that this wasn't gonna be hard, and still it was harder than expected.

It, it was- Mm ... more draining than expected. And I think it's, you know, like we're very privileged in some ways. Like the practice taking off at the same time has meant there's more, you know, financial wiggle room with stuff. So that's, that has been helpful, and also we don't have family support. Like our- Mm

you know, both of our families, um- Yeah ... I started saying dead. A lot of them are dead. Not all of them. Yeah, yeah. Sure. Uh, but you know, the people that would be coming up and, and chipping in and taking, doing childcare are not here. And so-

[00:16:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:16:09] Jason: um, you know, we have some close friends that we can lean on occasionally that we tend to only lean on when it's like a true emergency.

[00:16:15] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:16:16] Jason: And, and otherwise it's just kind of figuring it out. So yeah, even, um, you know, we've been talking about pleasure so basic as like can we watch like a, you know, an episode of The Pit when it comes out? You know- Yeah ... can we, can we, um, take a f- take a little bit of time just to like, you know, the kids are in bed, and every once in a while we'll order ice cream or we'll-

[00:16:37] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm

[00:16:37] Jason: you know, get a cookie from Insomnia Cookies or somewhere and just like, just stay up a little bit and listen to a podcast or, you know, um, watch a movie just to be together a little bit and not unconscious. And it's, you know, those are the things that keep you going, but it's-

[00:16:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:16:54] Jason: it's also the stuff that can be such a struggle under, under, you know, this isolated system that we, we have.

[00:17:01] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And I'm curious for you, how has your connection to eroticism and sexuality changed over these last couple of years?

[00:17:13] Jason: I mean, I think radically, you know? Like it is, um- It is so hard, you know, even to get time, uh, this is- Mm ... you know, if you're a patient of mine, please turn off the podcast for 30 seconds.

Yeah, even to, to masturbate, even to have, like, just a little bit of, like, that kind of time- Mm-hmm ... it's a wow, what a, what a special occasion. Like, this is like- Yeah ... woo, you know, we, we get some time.

[00:17:37] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:17:37] Jason: For time, um, you know, where we can be intimate, it's, it's obviously, you know, when the stars align, it's great.

It has been a, you know, a thing that I have always loved about my, my wife is- Mm-hmm ... just our connection and how, like, she is, is really, um, such an incredible person.

[00:18:01] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:18:02] Jason: Uh, you know, we can both be very frazzled and very beat down and really having a hard time, but if we, we can find some time and just, like, drop the defenses a little bit- Yeah

it's always just, like, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a drink of water in the desert. Mm. Like, it's a, you know.

[00:18:17] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:18] Jason: It's, again, talking about the things that keep you going. Like- Yeah ... there's been times where it's just, like, it feels like just walking on stumps.

[00:18:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:18:25] Jason: And then it's like, "Oh, okay. Okay, we can- Yeah

fly a little bit and this will be, this will be really good." Um-

[00:18:31] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:18:31] Jason: I think in a concrete way, a thing that people don't always talk about with, with parents is that physically there's just differences, you know?

[00:18:39] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Like,

[00:18:39] Jason: obviously the act of, um, you know, having children, even if it's C-sections, like, it just, like the, the hormonal changes, the everything.

Yeah. It just, you know, things that used to be the fun go-to stuff are not that anymore and, you know, like things that used to be like, "Oh, I really love high intensity," mm, can't be that high intense in that same way. And also, like, just as we're both aging, you know? Yeah. Like, we both have not the world's best joints in every- Yeah

you know, instance and so, you know, we have to kind of adapt and, and, uh, change things. I do think that there is this- real joy when we- Mm ... when we can kind of find it. Like, that's- Yeah ... that I think is the thing that is when, when it's really hard and it's been a doldrum, uh, or maybe a drought, then getting back into it, it's sometimes there's the fear is like, oh, that was such a magical, incredible thing that maybe that's just gone or maybe we- Mm

won't be able to get back into that swing.

[00:19:43] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:19:43] Jason: And we always do, and when we do, it's just like,

[00:19:46] Dr. Nicole: Ah, there it is.

[00:19:48] Jason: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, oh, no, no, no, we still got it. We still got it. It's still

[00:19:52] Dr. Nicole: here. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

[00:19:53] Jason: yeah.

[00:19:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I imagine that also means scheduling time to actually engage in sexual activity.

[00:20:02] Jason: Yeah, I mean, we, if we don't make... You know, it's oftentimes like if we don't schedule some time or if we don't, you know... It's scheduling time, and it's also pushing through exhaustion, 'cause I think- Yeah ... I think there, you know, in the pre-times it might have been like, "Oh, I'm kinda tired. Well, we know tomorrow we'll, like, mess around.

We'll..." And it's like, oh, if we, if we wait until we're not tired, we'll never do it. You know? So it's not gonna be ideal, but, but still we wanna- Yeah ... be intimate and we still wanna be together, so let's- Mm-hmm ... let's go for it.

[00:20:30] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[00:20:31] Jason: Um.

[00:20:33] Dr. Nicole: Which I think is hot and beautiful. I know so many people- Yes, yes

get that sort of like, "Oh, God, I don't wanna schedule sex," and that also might fall into the same category of like, "Oh, God, I don't wanna talk about the sex that we're having and the type of sex- Right ... we have." Like, it's all sort of that, that overarching narrative of sex must just flow naturally- ... without any...

Exactly. I love that laugh or that... You know? And so I don't have any children. My podcast is my child. The podcast and this business that I run is my child. It is a one-woman show over here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, which is lovely and, and... But it also means that my schedule is so wild, too, where I will do the same with my partners of like, "Hey, so let's have sex over here."

And I know that there- Yeah ... can then be, uh, that deeper question of what if I'm not turned on? What if, what if I just don't feel it? And I've learned to really let go of that question because I n- I mean, obviously I can always say no. That's like baseline, very well-established with all of my partners- Yeah

and all that, so I wanna name that first. But beyond that, like, I know that I can turn myself on by starting the practice in a very responsive way. Yes. And so I really appreciated Emily Nagoski's newer book about coming together and really changing that paradigm of rather asking, you know, am I turned on?

Am I turned on? Shifting it to, does this feel good? We're not asking the question of whether I'm turned on or not. It's more just, is this act that I'm doing feeling good? And that actually-

[00:21:59] Jason: Yeah ...

[00:22:00] Dr. Nicole: produces the arousal.

[00:22:01] Jason: Yes. Yeah, and I think that's, you know, I think that that comes in so many ways. It's like the, the setting the table and then letting it show up.

Mm-hmm. It's, you know, um, there's, there's so much of intimacy and connection that sometimes just comes because it's like, okay, well let's not... I don't have to feel that first and then do the romantic gesture or do the nice thing. Yeah. It's like, hey, I know I love this person. I'm feeling really frazzled, but let me do something to show that love.

And then it's like, okay, yeah, as I'm in the process. Um, so, so last year, I did something really, uh, a little, a little dorky- ... but I, I think it was fun. Uh, for my, uh, for our presents for each other last year, we did homemade things for Christmas. Aw, cute. And, um, not, not this last year, sorry, the year before last.

And, uh, I have, uh, I'm a poet. Like I, I- Mm ... you know, when I was in school, that was, um, I had a creative writing, uh, emphasis and did a lot of, of writing. I've always been really interested in setting it to, um, uh, music and, you know- Yeah ... it's something that I've kind of played around with a little bit, but I've never, I've never had really those skills.

And, you know, when you reach out to songwriters like, "Hey, I would like to pay you for that," it's typically very expensive and prohibitively so. Um, and so someone had sent me a link to a, uh, an AI thing that makes music. Like, basically it'll take- Mm-hmm ... your lyrics and turn it into music. And so I'm like Uh, I don't know.

It's AI, but it is, like, I'm really... It is all my lyrics, it's all my original stuff.

[00:23:44] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:44] Jason: So I'd written a lot of poems for my wife, and I'm like, what if I, like, messed around with this and, and made, like, a little album for her- Mm ... in the software?

[00:23:52] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:23:52] Jason: And, you know, like, now I'm like, okay, I probably m- used those, the equivalent of water of, like, you know, a, a thousand gallon pool or something.

Um, uh, but it was something that really came together nicely. Like, I put a lot of effort into it. I did... Um, I had written poems about our kids, and so I put, like, those into- Aw ... into the mix and, uh, you know, like, yeah, it really came together, and it was something where I had this idea, I wanted to play with it, and then as I got more and more into it and I wrote some for the project, like, that feeling of connection just kind of grew and grew.

And it was like- Mm ... okay, from, from, like, this tough moment when, like, you know, Gideon was, uh, like, eight months old, like, you know, he was, uh, I mean, he's always been a little stinker. Um, and, uh, you know, we were, we were kind of hanging on by our fingernails at that point, but that kind of really woke me up a bit and, and made me feel, like, just-

[00:24:52] Dr. Nicole: Mm

[00:24:53] Jason: a lot more settled. And I think- Yeah ... okay, yeah. So sometimes it's like the, the, the lie of ease is like, well, if it's, if it's great and we're really connected, then that ease will just, you know, just be there and it will... I'll never have to work at it, and I think it's, it's the opposite. I think if you really work for it, then you start to feel, like, everything else gets a little easier.

Like, your life gets a little bit easier if you put the effort in.

[00:25:16] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's about intentionality, as you named. Mm-hmm. The choice of this is how I wanna use this time, and there's all the romantic pieces of connection and intimacy with other people, and then the somatic pieces, even with yourself.

You know, when we think about other somatic- Pleasure-based practices, you know, 'cause I like to say that rather than working out, 'cause working out. Working out? No, I'm gonna do some pleasurable movement, okay? You got it. You

[00:25:44] Jason: know, and just- Right ...

[00:25:45] Dr. Nicole: and, and cardio is a part of my pleasurable movement, to be clear, but- Yeah, yeah

you know, it's not, it's... Yeah, exactly. You get it. So working out, what a word. Um, but could you imagine if I waited and was like, "Ah, I'm just gonna wait until I wanna take a yoga class," or, "I'm just gonna wait until I wanna do this cardio," or, "I'm gonna wait till I wanna-" Right ... rock climb. Like, there'd be w- weeks, months where I just wouldn't do it, and there's a level of deciding, like- Mm-hmm

oh, I actually really like the somatic state I get into when I go into this space, and so I'm actually gonna start moving and then warm my body up to it. Yeah. And I think of sex in a very similar way, right? Like, I'm going to start this touch and this movement and warm up to it, and then feel really good afterwards, like I do- Yeah, yeah

after a yoga class or a workout. Um, and so I think that's really, really powerful, especially if you're a sex educator, a sex therapist, and you think about sex all day long, which means that your sensitivity to the topic

[00:26:41] Jason: Right ...

[00:26:42] Dr. Nicole: changes, you know?

[00:26:44] Jason: Yeah, yeah.

[00:26:45] Dr. Nicole: So it's very real in that way. I wanna rewind, too, to that moment.

This is, you know, important political conversation and interesting, um, when you were like, "Oh, if you're my client, like, tune out for 30 seconds in terms of masturbation time." I, oh, we gotta- Yeah ... we gotta slow down to talk about that. Yeah, yeah. Um, 'cause my clients know I masturbate. Uh, the clients that listen to this podcast- Yeah

that are a part of my newsletter know that I masturbate. Yeah. Yep, yep. And then I started getting to the point where, um, my Chicagoland clients go to the same play parties that I go to. And so then I'm- Yeah ... crying in supervision going, "What am I doing here? I gotta, gotta..." Okay, like I'm either gonna be here or I'm gonna hide away from it.

So I, I'm curious- Yeah ... about that for you and how you navigate all of that, or your views on, yeah, what it means to be a therapist that specifically works in this area and to not shy away from our humanness in this topic.

[00:27:42] Jason: Yes. So yeah, I mean, it's one of those things where if a patient... Um, if it was brought up in any kind of way where it was, like, super relevant- Yeah

where it's like, you know, "No one ever masturbates, and I'm a disgusting pig for masturbating," I'd be like, "Well..." You know, if-

[00:27:56] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ... well- Yeah, totally ...

[00:27:58] Jason: that's not You know, that's not true. Yeah. But, but there's a, there's an element of this that is, I think one of the more political elements about being, um, a, a, a therapist that works with sexuality, which is, um, where's your comfort in being sexual and in being acknowledged to be sexual, right?

And sometimes seen to be sexual. Yeah. So especially if you're a kinky person, a poly person, like I've known so many poly therapists where it's like, oh, you know, like they have to be very careful with their partners of like, please talk to people-

[00:28:33] Dr. Nicole: Yep ...

[00:28:34] Jason: about, like I've had to have this conversation myself where it's like, okay, yeah, please talk to people when you're at a play party and say like, "Hey, are you in therapy?"

Because that would be really awkward if you slept with a patient. Uh, that would be the worst. Yeah. So please don't do that. Um-

[00:28:51] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, of course ...

[00:28:52] Jason: um, but there's also this piece of- You know, I've... The, when I've talked to, to, um, uh, patients about like, "Hey, I'm a kinky person. I have, you know, not... I mean, at this point not been to play parties in a while."

Mm-hmm. "But like, been to play parties." Like, you know, if that ever were to happen, like we would obviously wanna talk about it. There was a, a period in time where I was thinking about going to Twisted Tryst, which is a, um, kinky camping event- Cool ... near Chicago. And I was, I was kinda feeling out the, the prospect of going and then I, I realized like, oh yeah, I've got a handful of clients that definitely go every year.

Um, and I'm like, hey, so is this... You know, I've got some friends that are warning me like, "Hey, go, and we'll just stay in these areas and try to stay away from people," but still there might be a chance that you might bump into me. Like, how would that feel? What would be the ramifications of that? Every person was like, "Oh, that would be so cool.

That would be great. I wouldn't bother me at all." And it still felt weird to me. Mm. It still felt like, mm.

[00:29:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:29:54] Jason: I think that would be a little bit awkward for me. I don't know that I want you to see my butt.

[00:29:59] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. A- a-

[00:30:00] Jason: and so like, uh, I mean, great, no, you know, no, uh, nothing on them, it's just in terms of my own personal boundaries- Yeah

it didn't feel right. You know, you can also argue things like de- if there was ever an ethics complaint brought- Mm ... uh, how would the board, you know, like, I... Boards tend to be pretty conservative, and so it would be, um, you might be at some risk. Uh, I've also never heard of... I'm, I've not heard of that happening within the community, right?

Like, where it was just a, somebody was at a play party and it w- they were known to be kinky and someone else happened to be there.

[00:30:41] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:30:41] Jason: I've never heard of that issue. I'm, I'm sure it has been at some point, but I've never- Mm-hmm ... heard of it. Um, so I don't think it happens very frequently or often, but it, it could happen.

I think for me, just for my comfort, 'cause I've also had, um, you know, I had a, a colleague who was getting, uh, spanked at a party and then- Mm-hmm ... you know, a patient walked in and- Mm-hmm ... saw them. When they were in a very... It wasn't necessarily just the nudity, it was primarily the emotional state. Like, oh- Sure

sobbing and just like really, you know, like- Yeah ... having a big release.

[00:31:14] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:31:14] Jason: And that felt weird, um, to them. Yeah. And so I think that based on that, I tend to be, um, protective. So I, I, you know, like w- will go like, uh... When I have gone kinky camping, but I've, I've traveled to do that. Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, traveled like a, a distance.

Like, I've... And again, not in recent years because, you know, two little kids. But, you know, like- Yeah ... I, like, like when, uh, friends have done things like, uh, "Oh, I'm gonna have a kinky party," and invited us, it's been like, "Okay, so just tell me who your guest list is, and then I'll tell you if I will come or not."

Mm-hmm. And I won't say why I'm not coming. Right. Um, and I'm... And, you know, we'll go through the full guest list, and then kind of I'll make a call. But, you know, it's that kind of thing of it just feels a little safer. And, you know, my general assumption is that, um, my clients would, would be very pro, like, "Hey, great that Jason's masturbating.

Good healthy sex life." And also they don't necessarily need to hear about it. You know, I, I guess I kind of default sometimes to, like, the, um... I mean, maybe this is me just being a dad all the time now, but it's that dad role of like, you know, if, if you've got a healthy relationship with your parents, you want them to be healthy and, and having a great sex life.

You definitely don't need to hear about it. Um- The details, right.

[00:32:38] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah,

[00:32:38] Jason: yeah.

[00:32:39] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, the nuance of the topic here.

[00:32:42] Jason: Yeah.

[00:32:43] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I mean, it's such an interesting position that therapists get put in, you know, because we're supposed to be Exploring the human condition- Mm-hmm ... normalizing the human condition.

[00:32:56] Jason: Yeah.

[00:32:57] Dr. Nicole: And then especially something like sexuality, to normalize that. And I think it's important for any listeners who are therapists, the beauty of this is that you get to decide for yourself your own comfort level of what feels authentic to you. It's not like liberation is going to the play party and having- Yeah

not worrying if your clients are there, right? Yeah. It's n- you know, it's up to you and your own comfort level of what would feel authentic to your own practice. And, and the community care. If you do have a client who says, "I'd feel deeply uncomfortable." And then how do you negotiate, you know? Yeah. Whether that means you leave the space, or you take turns with the space.

All of that, that makes- Yeah ... sh- shit I didn't learn in grad school.

[00:33:36] Jason: No.

[00:33:39] Dr. Nicole: You know? I mean, I, I did have one of my professors, um, Dr. Braden Berkey. Do you know him? Yeah,

[00:33:44] Jason: yeah, yeah.

[00:33:45] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. He did, he did at least gently start some of these conversations with me when I, 'cause I knew I was gonna go into this area.

And he's like, "Yeah. I mean, it's about the acculturation of that person. How, are they new to the kink community, and this is deeply- Yeah ... shocking and exposure therapy at, like, the first exposure?" Right. Or is this somebody who's been in the community for 25 years, and they're like, "Oh, yeah. Of course. Another therapist is here."

You know? And so it's like those larger factors that we should be taking into accountability. But I know there are prob- you know, I've mentored other therapists who are then asking that deeper question of, "I go to this play space. My client is asking for a play space. I feel bad that I have this resource.

But also, if I give it to them, then I lose the sacredness of just this space." Yeah. And that's, that's a really complex thing to navigate when you're in, you know, these communities which are really small, and there's only maybe one, two public dungeons or whatever.

[00:34:41] Jason: Right.

[00:34:41] Dr. Nicole: You know, the n- that's a complicated situation.

[00:34:44] Jason: Yeah. And, and my, w- I mean, where I come down on that is I think it is fair to, to keep the resource. And if you don't think you're gonna use it, like if you're like, "Oh, I've been going to these. I'm about to stop. I won't be back," then yes, please give away. But I think, I think that if you, if you have... 'Cause some therapists have that mindset of, well I'm, you know, like guilt.

"Oh, I'm a bad therapist. I'm a bad- Yeah ... person if I don't give everything." And then they, they erase themselves from some of their best hobbies and joys, you know, like, "Oh, I can't actually do these things that I really like," and you know, "I can't participate in stuff that's actually keeping me sane and keeping me in the, um, in the field because- Mm-hmm

I've given it all away." And it's like, yeah- Mm-hmm ... don't, it's okay not to do that. There are, there are other options. There are other opportunities. If, you know, somebody finds their way through another path, then that's fair, and then you have the conversations about it. I know some people that go on off days as therapists.

Yeah. I know some people that do, you know, um, they go out of town. There's people, um, you know, I've heard of, of, uh, famous therapists that go out of the country, like- Oh, yeah ... to have their play dates and stuff. And so, you know- Totally ... like you can have, there's a lot of options, but it is okay to have space for yourself, and it's okay to say like, "This is something that's important to me, and-

[00:36:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm

[00:36:09] Jason: you know, I wanna keep that." I will also say that is something I do warn folks who are about to go into this, especially if they're newer to their, um, if they're newer to, to kink, if they're newer to queerness sometimes. It's like, okay, if you make your practice, uh- ... all about that population- Yeah ... then it could really complicate your life down the road.

[00:36:33] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. I feel very lucky that the podcast has a global reach, so I get people in different countries, different states- Yeah ... and I'm like, "Yes, please work with me. This is an easy..." When I get a Chicago applicant, that's when I'm like, "Okay, we gotta check how- Mm ... how close are you," you know?

And, and yeah, I've had very direct conversations with my partners of you need to be asking these questions. Right. Because at a certain proximity, it's, it's, it's too close. And- Yeah. I mean, I r- I remember sitting and just crying in supervision 'cause I didn't wanna give up those spaces, and my mentor, supervisor saying like, "You don't have to.

You can." So I wanna hold that space too- Yeah ... for the listener who's like, "Yeah, I don't wanna give up these spaces. I still wanna go, and I already know clients are there." Like, you can hold that space and go, and there is nothing wrong with that. Right. Can you then hold the complexity of what that brings up in terms of transference, countertransference- Right

all of the relational pieces. And when you do go through that, I think that's a profoundly healing experience for people to know that, hey, this part of our experience, our sexuality, is not something to be ashamed of. Yeah. All the systems have so much to say about that. But this is a human part of our existence with pleasure, and you deserve to be able to be in that space as a leader who doesn't have shame in that too.

And so, like- Right ... I wanna hold that space too for the therapist who's like, "Oh, I don't wanna give it up." You know? That's, that's me. Like, I g- I get that. I get that. Or then even the therapist who I know we've had on the podcast who make porn- Yeah ... and are therapists. That's where I'm like even more power to.

Like, yeah. Like, I'm so proud of their ability to hold that- Sure ... and to, to not back down from all these systems that have so much to say about what professionalism looks like.

[00:38:19] Jason: Right. Well, yeah. I mean, it's, it's truly living. Like, we're saying that this is a fine thing and a good thing to be. And, you know, like I, I'm very aware that separating from those spaces also could be, you know, could be conceived of as judging those spaces or- Mm

thinking like, "Oh, well you can't be a professional- Yeah ... and then also do this, this, this stuff."

[00:38:42] Dr. Nicole: That was my crying.

[00:38:42] Jason: Um, which is 1,000% not true. Like, absolutely you can be that, and you can have that whole of personhood in that. You know, like, it is, it, it, it is more complex. It's a, it's a more complex way to do it, and so you have to kind of think through things and be aware.

But, you know, like, there's nothing in this world that's perfect, so-

[00:39:04] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:39:05] Jason: you know, sometimes things that are, are right are complicated. Um, and sometimes you, you just gotta listen to, you know, kind of where your heart's pulling you. And for me, it was like, yeah, I think there's something about that that doesn't feel right.

And so, like, if there's a client in the space, and so that's generally been my move. But it, uh, actually has meant that I have dropped out of-

[00:39:28] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:39:28] Jason: you know, doing a lot of things that I would have done e- you know, in the past.

[00:39:33] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. It's a unique role that we play in society, a privilege and a burden at different times.

Yeah.

[00:39:38] Jason: Yep.

[00:39:39] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:39:40] Jason: Good way of saying it.

[00:39:41] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I think another point of this conversation I wanted to be able to explore is what it means to be present with our pleasure in these current times and the chaos- Yeah ... that we're in, you know? Yeah. You, you know, yeah, if we're thinking about layers here, you know, here's a therapist who's holding that responsibility we just talked about.

You have your children. You know, I've got my baby, the podcast. Hey, what's up? You know? And then how do you then even tap into pleasure in these times when there's so much going on in the world? Um, is it selfish to tap into pleasure in this current time? Uh, I don't think so. I see a lot of resistance and resilience- Mm

and power, and we've seen that in queer and trans communities for, for decades, right? Of what it means to dance in our joy and to really embody that as a part- Mm ... of the resistance. But I wanna explore, yeah, your relationship to pleasure in these chaotic, stressful political times. And I wanna be- Well-

optimistic when this comes out in six months that it's better, but I'm also realistic that it probably

[00:40:48] Jason: won't. So all of that. That's not been the trajectory for a bit- Exactly ... but I'm hopeful. Like, some things are, some things are great. Yeah. Yeah. Um, like, New York is doing pretty cool at the moment- Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah ... as we record this. Here's hoping- Yeah. Yeah ... um, it keeps going in a good track.

[00:40:58] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:40:58] Jason: Uh, so yeah.

I think that we are in a particularly grim time, uh, for a couple reasons. One, there is a lot of really awful stuff happening, um, environmentally, globally, um, you know, with the terrorist currently in the White House. Not great.

[00:41:19] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:19] Jason: Mm-hmm. Um, and on top of that, we're, we're in this world, um, where suddenly a lot of things are less authentic.

You know, I was talking about the, you know, AI earlier. Like, I think AI is a really cool tool. There's a lot of things that machine learning can do, um, that's cool. There's some things that generative AI can do-

[00:41:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:41:40] Jason: uh, when it's not lying to you that's really neat. Yeah. Uh, uh, and, and also a lot of stuff is no longer trustworthy.

Yeah. Like, even- Oh ... you know, like, I used to, uh, I think, um, you know, funny cat videos and baby videos and those kinds of things used to be my balm when things were really hard, and I've gotten fooled a couple times where it was like, oh, I didn't realize the first time I'd watched a clip that it was AI. Um, I just thought it was this cool baby thing.

Or like, wow, all these bunnies are on this trampoline. That's strange. Yeah

[00:42:16] Dr. Nicole: I know the video you're talking about, yeah Yeah Yeah.

[00:42:18] Jason: Yeah, and then afterwards I'm like, "Oh, now I feel kind of naive." But- Yeah ... but that's kind of like now it's like, okay, even those things when they're real, I feel like I'm looking at them and scrutinizing them more.

W- um, I'm being a little bit more skeptical around things. And so I think that, um, there is so much that's getting in the way of, of humans being human, kind of. Mm. Like, it is, you know, hard to find truth. It's hard to find, um, the things that matter. We're being lied to at all levels of government- Yeah. Yeah

um, uh, and by our media and by all of these, these kind of sources, and it's, you know, it's, they're barely even pretending like they're not. And sometimes they're not even pretending. They're just being outright about it. And at the same time, living, I think, I think that there is, um, I'm a person who believes in fight, and so I'm absolutely like, "Fuck the Nazis.

Fuck these guys. We gotta like, you know, stop this." And also- We have to laugh. Like, laughter is the thing that for me is, like, one of the most li- life-affirming things you can do. And so to have, like, um, a laugh, even, even when I've got people who are feeling really down and it's kind of gallows humor, like, that is, um...

I, I heard gallows humor once described as the rocks we throw at death-

[00:43:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:43:46] Jason: when we don't have anything else. Mm. Like, you know, it's, it's not gonna stop it, but it's, it's something, and it's that- Yeah ... that symbolic kind of resistance that sometimes we just need as humans to get out of bed and keep moving.

I think it's essential to find pleasure, to find joy- Mm, yeah ... to find these moments. I think that there is a, another side of this. I, 'cause I don't think it's the, like, you know, that selfishness is about... Like, pleasure is not inherently selfish. I think, though, that there are people, which I understand, I think there's people that are feeling so overwhelmed and so hopeless that they've turned into, "I am just going to fall into searching for, for pleasure as a distraction and a disconnect."

[00:44:29] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Sure. "

[00:44:29] Jason: And I am, and I'm just going to kinda tune out the world." Um, you know, they talked about this in Nazi journey- Germany where there were so many people that would do these, um, you know, like, like, house parties and, and stuff where it was just like the world was burning down around them, and they're just like, you know, every night is a different dinner party because they're so desperate for distraction.

Um- Mm. And again, I mean, I understand that. Like, I don't think that it's necessarily a sign that you're a bad person. I've certainly done that before when I'm just so overloaded and overwhelmed. Like, give me some, you know... Give me a, um, like, an anime where the, uh, you know, protagonist is going to really uppercut a bad guy- Mm

and I can just, like, just zone out and-

[00:45:14] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:45:15] Jason: you know, let my brain go, lose myself in the, you know, the infinite oneness of punching.

[00:45:20] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:21] Jason: Um, those moments can be really great. And also if we get lost in that where we're just, it's like each day, what can I do to hit that dopamine button, and I'm not really- thinking about, like, what matters to me.

I'm not really, you know, doing the, the uncomfortable stuff I need to do to be living within my own ethics- Mm ... and my own values and showing up for the people in my life-

[00:45:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:45:46] Jason: then I think that starts to feel really empty and, and- Mm-hmm ... kind of terrible

[00:45:50] Dr. Nicole: after a while. Yeah.

[00:45:51] Jason: Um, and certainly there's a lot of research, like, you know, um, Seligman, Martin Seligman talks about the, you know, people who just really hunt pleasure tend to be kind of miserable.

[00:46:02] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:46:03] Jason: You know, pleasure in the sense of, like, like, devoid of that other context. They're just, like, hitting the, the Positive button and they're not really doing anything else. So I think, I think that pleasure is... You know, it's the, the sauce in life. Like, we h- we, we need it. We have to build room for it even in dire circumstances.

Yeah. And also it has to be within a context. Like, you know, it could be self-exploration. It could be you're connecting. It could be rebellion. It could be you're connecting to your partner. It could be so many different things. Um- Mm-hmm ... but I think if after a while it's just, like... And I think it could even be, "I don't wanna think for five minutes."

God bless, like, absolutely get it, but if it's like, "I don't wanna think for five minutes," and then we repeat that 30,000 times, then we're lost.

[00:46:47] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. In the psychedelic community when people would just keep tracing the same psychedelic experience again and again and again without integrating the insights and moving forward, we'd call that spiritual bypassing.

Yeah. And I've been calling some of this pleasure bypassing, right? Just completely- Yeah ... trying to negate. And then we can have a deeper question too about what pleasure means, you know? Um, like I told one of my partners recently, I was like, "Oh, I mean..." He was like, "There's more to life than pleasure." And I'm like, "Yes, and also pleasure is everything."

And he was like, "What do you mean?" And I'm like, "Well, when I'm crying I'm in pleasure." And I know that some would be like, "Doesn't that seem antithetical?" And yet in our kink communities we know that pain can be pleasure, that- Mm-hmm ... it's the ripeness of sensation, right? Like, I am alive- Mm ... when I get that impact, and I feel that ripple through me.

And so then there's that deeper question of how do we define pleasure, 'cause if now I'm seeing my pleasure as part of my, my grief and my sadness because it means I'm alive and it means I give a fuck, which is a pleasurable experience- Yeah ... in the pain. And so then, yeah, that deeper question, too, of, of what does pleasure even mean as a word, right?

What, what do each one of us, you, me, the listener that's tuning in, like, what does that word mean? We're all gonna have different meaning makings to that word. Mm-hmm. And what fits in and what doesn't, and therefore the judgments we may have. Fat Cat is just in front of the

[00:48:08] Jason: mic. So cute.

[00:48:09] Dr. Nicole: She's like, "This is my show."

[00:48:12] Jason: Right.

[00:48:14] Dr. Nicole: Um, yeah. And so it's, I think it's important too to get into that concept of what pleasure is as well, you know, and how expansive can it be.

[00:48:22] Jason: Yeah.

[00:48:22] Dr. Nicole: Do we lose the meaning of the word if we expand it so far? Maybe. You know?

[00:48:28] Jason: Yeah. I mean, I think- You know, I don't, I don't know that I would think everything is pleasure.

I think that a lot of things are pleasurable, and I think that there is, like, it, um, I think a connection, and this is gonna be so weird, and it's dad brain, I'm sorry. Do it. But my, my daughter will sometimes go, "It's boring." And, and this is like, she does this to needle me- Mm-hmm ... 'cause she's a little funny monster.

Mm-hmm. And she'll be like, "I'm bored." I'm like, "You can't be bored. I literally- ... you've, you've been in the car for one second." Like, that is, I deny. Yeah. I deny your boredom. Yeah, yeah, yeah. J'accuse. No way. That is not true. Um, but, uh, you know, we've been talking a lot with her because she'll say that, and I'm like- Mm

"I don't actually think you're bor- I think you're a little uncomfortable."

[00:49:13] Dr. Nicole: Mm. "

[00:49:13] Jason: Or I think you're a little disconnected. You don't really know what to do with yourself." Oh, wow. So we're trying to help her, like, find other words to talk about these emotional experiences. Sure. I think with pleasure, pleasure can be so many things.

I, I kinda oftentimes think of, 'cause I was trying to describe this recently with her, and I'm like, "I am really, it's very rare," I would, I would pretty much never describe myself as bored.

[00:49:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:49:34] Jason: Um, I have other things going on.

[00:49:37] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:49:37] Jason: You know, I feel uncomfortable, and anxious, and stressed, you know? But I don't feel- Sure

and exhausted, for sure, but I don't feel bored-

[00:49:44] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:49:44] Jason: pretty much ever. Mm. And I think so much of it is because- You know, I'm always doing a thing. I love that. And if I'm, you know, if I'm doing something I don't wanna do, I'm finding a way to make that... There's something I'm doing with that, you know? Like, I'm not just, like, letting that sit internally.

I am, you know, thinking about, like, making the house nice, or I'm thinking about, um, you know, I'm, I might be, like, disassociating a little bit and thinking about some other cool thing I'm gonna do later on- Sure ... while I'm washing dishes or whatever. I think that there's some of that, like, okay, yes, we are in the, the moment we're in.

We're in the difficulties we're in, but also, we, we can choose a bit how we're going to lean into this moment and the meaning we're gonna attach to it and the energy we wanna have around it. And I think going at it with this real vital vitality, like, this real, like, vital energy, this like, hey, okay, 'cause I think it's very easy right now to be listless and to feel defeated, and like, fuck that.

In the year of our Lord 2026, who has time for that? Like, let's just... You know, I'm, I'm much more into a let's charge into it and do some shit space-

[00:50:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:50:58] Jason: even if it's imperfect and messy and, you know, maybe a little awkward or painful. But, like, I would much rather take some action and make some changes, um, or sit with some stuff and just...

but just sit with it maybe in a different way.

[00:51:12] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:12] Jason: Um, you know, if that kind of makes... You know, that's, that's where living is to me. Like, that's where it feels like I'm alive, where I'm like, oh yeah, I'm not just like, you know, hitting that button and I've skipped, you know, three days and I don't even really know what happened.

It's no, I'm, I'm here and I'm active and I am- Yeah ... ch- I'm, I'm choosing. Whatever's going on, I, I am making some choices.

[00:51:38] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. The word that was coming to mind for me was presence. Yeah,

[00:51:43] Jason: yeah, yeah.

[00:51:44] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, very present. And if, if we slow down to any moment, yeah, the concept of boredom is really interesting.

I mean, there's so much unfolding, whether it's the colors or the patterns that are around you, the visuals, the things you can see. I mean, I'm thinking the five senses, you know, in terms of all- Mm-hmm ... the stimulus that is around you. And even at that point, if, if that's not enough for you, can you feel the breath?

That's one of my favorite pleasures as a yoga- Yeah ... teacher is to get people to, like, take that full

Like that is a free pleasure that is available to any of us at any time, and it's such a, produces all those good neurochemicals into the brain to relax and ease

[00:52:25] Jason: and- Right.

[00:52:25] Dr. Nicole: Right ... that's always available to us. But I think what that hits on for me too is the levels of habituation that occur, right? I'm, like right now I'm in my office recording and there's these beautiful things behind you that you can't see, but because it's my every day I don't even think about like, "Oh, look at this beautiful pattern or look at this or that," right?

Because I don't really have the presence of gratitude to even notice that. There's so many pleasures in our life that even exist that we just forget to notice. Even the fact that we have running water. Like I, I made tea Yeah ... I made tea before this. There are places who, people who don't have running water right now, right?

Right. And so it's like how do we hold the nuance of, yeah, this political climate and everything is shit and on fire, and also look at this amazing pleasure that I deeply forget of like I have running water to make tea right now- Right ... that many people don't. Like, so the nuance of holding that, the, the, the possibility of pleasure even in the breath despite and wow, things are going on in the world.

That's a, a complex space to s- to sit in, and it reminds me of the glass half full, half empty metaphor and I, I, I choose the half full and I know that the reality is it's both.

[00:53:38] Jason: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's both. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's acknowledging the reality and, you know, the reality of our current moment is that we are in a world with, uh, a lot of grim, dark tidings and, you know, systemic injustice.

And, you know, these, these actions are absolutely affecting all of us, and they're especially affecting, uh, the trans community, communities of color. You know, like so many- Mm-hmm ... so many people are, are being targeted and, uh, it's, it's really so difficult. And also, th- we are still here. Yeah. Like, we are still, we still have the ability to live in this moment and think and, and make choices.

[00:54:30] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:30] Jason: Um, and even if the load is heavy, I mean, it, it makes a difference if you carry that load on your shoulders or on your head. You know, it makes a difference if you, um, y- give yourself no permission, which I know some activists I've had to work with, it's like it's such a dire moment. They're like, "Okay, great, so the way to do this is I work myself until I fall over in exhaustion."

And it's like- Yeah ... uh, well.

[00:54:54] Dr. Nicole: I hear that. I hear that call.

[00:54:55] Jason: You know- You know? ... if, if you never recharge that gas tank- ... you are gonna not be great for the movement, you know, 'cause this is not a sprint, this is a marathon. Right. Like, you're gonna have to be in this for a while. And also, like, what, what are you saying for the people around you?

You know, like I've seen progressive organizations and lefty organizations that are like, everybody's like so, "We gotta, we gotta make sacrifices for the cause," and then, you know, they're constantly burning out members, and people are quitting and leaving because they can't keep up. Mm-hmm. And you, you know, like there are moments where you have to work yourself to the bone, for sure, and then there's also moments where it's like we have to do this in a sustainable way.

[00:55:33] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah.

[00:55:33] Jason: Like, you know, those, those, like, work-to-collapse moments have to be the extreme short-term crises. They can't be the day-to-day this is how we just, like, you know, function. Mm-hmm. Because then it's not going to function.

[00:55:46] Dr. Nicole: Right. Right. I mean, from a practical utilitarian standpoint, that's the, that's the end of that equation right there.

Those, some of the... M- my minor is in philosophy, and in that field of thought, you hit that point where in terms of utilitarianism, you can't just keep giving yourself away and away and away. You'll end up just dying and, and unable- Yes ... to give more resources. You have to be able to understand that there needs to be longevity in anything that you do.

And, and the wild thing is that if you're in that space of go, go, go, go, go, which- I get. I'm like, "Let me edit more episodes. Let me write a new newsletter. Let me create a new spreadsheet." We're

[00:56:24] Jason: in a hustle world. Like, there's so much, like, you know, there's so much, um... They have come up with the most fine-tuned, incredible behavioral rewards for that.

All of our media, you know, oftentimes has heroes where the big, the big move is like look, look, they could really outlast. They could do so much more. Um, they even talk about humans is our, our genetic advantage being endurance hunters. Like, we are designed to go, go, go- Mm ... and, you know, run, you know, gazelle into heart attacks because- Yeah,

[00:56:59] Dr. Nicole: that's true

[00:57:00] Jason: we just never stop and never let them rest. You know? So we are, we are really tough. Mm. And also, uh, because we're, we're endurance, uh, machines, we have to be really mindful about that, 'cause it's- Mm-hmm ... it's oftentimes, like, the default gut response, and it's a terrible way to live. It's a terrible way to, to do things.

It's not, it's not a good way to lead a team or to have- Right ... um, you know, or to have a life with any sort of a balance. Like

[00:57:33] Dr. Nicole: No, not at all. Yeah. Because when you're working yourself to, you know, that point of exhaustion, and then a conflict comes up with a lover or a community member, you know what?

You're probably already past your window of tolerance. Mm. You're probably gonna lash out in a way that you won't be proud of because you're already so re- like, lack of resourced there, right? And so how helpful is that in the long run when you're not feeding yourself with the nutrients that fill up your cup in that way?

And so, yeah, like, when I think about the ability to tap into pleasure, and especially the ability to tap into sexual pleasure, like, there is a political amount of, of self-care and resourcing in the ability to bring yourself or another person or other people into that state of ecstasy and pleasure in the body.

Because when I get out of that, my breath is a bit more, "Oh, yeah. Okay, what's the... Next time I have that conflict, yeah, okay, let's talk," versus, "Oh, my God, next thing, next thing, conflict. Oh, my God." You know, like, we have- Yeah ... to really think about it even in, in that. You know, I like to think of pleasure just as a beautiful thing in and of itself, but there is also that practical standpoint in terms of the amount of capacity that it opens up for us- Yeah

to do much more difficult work because you are feeding yourself. We know this even from a biological standpoint. If you don't eat food, how far you gonna- Yeah ... how far you gonna get, you know? Yeah. And so thinking about it in that same, like, like, your body needs this sort of release to be able to relax and ease, and it's, like, one of the most beautiful free resources we can tap into is our endogenous pleasure hormones that happen when we bring ourselves to that state.

Like, it's literally free, and we can create it, and you'll be better resourced. Whoa. You know? Like, whoa. Yeah.

[00:59:23] Jason: Incredible.

[00:59:24] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[00:59:27] Jason: It's, it, you know, it is rest and, and pleasure. It is the things that the Puritans hated Are, are also the things that keep you going and, you know, keep us moving. It's the thing that makes us, uh, resilient.

Yeah. Like, you know, we're so much more resilient when we give ourselves those permissions. Um, I've had so many overachieving, incredible, uh, genius folks come in, and they're like, "I don't know why I can't... Ugh, there's this problem where I keep, like, you know, into my days are always really unproductive." And I'm like, "Okay.

Well, tell me about your days." "Well, I, you know, I get there an hour early, and then I work through my lunch, and I take no breaks." Yep. "And I'm..." Yep. You know, it's like, well, yeah, your brain is tapioca pudding. Like, you're, you know, like, there's no way you're gonna be... You know, like, you have to take a lunch.

What? I don't wanna take a lu- like, what? No. Oh. Tell me to work hard. Tell me to work more. Yeah. Like, what's the more work? Yeah. It's like, no, actually, if you do less, you will do more. Like if you actually enjoy, like go outside and sit for 15 minutes under a tree and eat your lunch, the whole rest of your day will be better.

[01:00:35] Dr. Nicole: Wow. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And, and that's where I've worked with clients who find or have that felt sense that any sort of erotic masturbation- Yeah ... so low pleasure is, is not productive.

[01:00:50] Jason: Yeah, right.

[01:00:51] Dr. Nicole: Oh, whoa. Like, what does productive mean? Or, um, another level in terms of, you know, maybe if you're doing it with your hands, it takes X amount of time.

That could be completely shortened if there's a toy. And so maybe the toy pleasure feels okay, but the idea of just using your fingers to get to that state, well, that's not productive 'cause I could do it in five minutes. This might take, oh- It's not

[01:01:13] Jason: productive, it's not efficient. Yeah. It's like, right.

It's like that, you know. Like really that's what we want to, out of life, is to really fine-tune

[01:01:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah

[01:01:24] Jason: Really have it, have that pleasure, have that really great release and pleasure in- Mm-hmm ... as little time as possible. Uh-huh. So the rest of your day is-

[01:01:30] Dr. Nicole: Uh-huh ...

[01:01:31] Jason: not spent in that. That's good. What

[01:01:32] Dr. Nicole: are-

[01:01:33] Jason: That's good

[01:01:33] Dr. Nicole: what are we racing towards other than death, you know?

[01:01:36] Jason: Right. Right.

[01:01:37] Dr. Nicole: Let me get there faster. Hold on.

[01:01:38] Jason: Yeah. It's like, well, now you're on your deathbed, what do you wish? I wish I had taken some more time- Felt- ... to masturbate ...

[01:01:44] Dr. Nicole: oh, yeah. I wish I would've felt more, noticed more. Right. God. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Absolutely. And I feel like an important part of this conversation too that we haven't yet hit on is the art of building expansive communities. I know that you spoke to that also with your business and everything that you've created in your therapist community, and I'm, I'm thinking about this- Yeah ... as we're, we're speaking about masturbation and what it means to be resourced for the people that we love and that we care about and that also care about us.

How do you see the role of community in this revolution and the work that needs to be done?

[01:02:27] Jason: I mean, I think it's essential. One of the things that we've been talking about within the practice since the beginning is, you know, all... well, since the beginning of the practice and also the beginnings of all the craziness, has been we can rely much less on some national force to save us.

We really have to be investing in our local communities. Yep. We have to show up for our communities. We have to take care of our communities. We have to be thinking in terms of can we trust, uh, the same systems that we've been using in the past to protect our local communities? You know, like, things around, like, you know, we've cha- we, we haven't changed radically 'cause we were always more cautious about the documentation we were doing.

Um, we're still keeping ethical and complete notes, but we are, you know, things that would, could potentially be used against clients, we have been, you know, keeping those out. Um-

[01:03:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[01:03:26] Jason: uh, you know, there is conversation sometimes with, uh, diagnostics and making sure that people are, are certainly comfortable with different diagnoses, um, going on the record.

Um- And, you know, like really trying to help people with getting connected to community, 'cause, uh, I think that there are, um, you know, there are some people that are nervous about coming out or entering community at this point. But in, in most of the situations I'm seeing, like, like, people are absolutely still doing it.

And so it's like, okay, here's, here's places where you can meet people more safely. Here's places you can go to connect with people.

[01:04:07] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:04:07] Jason: Um, sometimes that might be, you know, like referrals to munches, to clubs, to- Sure ... whatever. Sometimes helping people problem solve or brainstorm how to get into queer community spaces.

You know, a nice thing about our practice is that we can see people, um... Really, we can see people kind of all over. We, we are mostly licensed in Illinois, so we can see anyone in Illinois from anywhere in the state. We do have some people with, uh, licenses in other states- Mm-hmm ... um, that we can see, and we have some international clients.

And, you know, weirdly, it's sometimes a lot easier to see the international clients than it is to see someone from Indiana, depending. Mm-hmm. So, um, you know, like we, we have... Sometimes we're helping people in other places, like find their local communities- Yeah ... problem solve, like how to get there. I think that it is So powerful being around kinky folks.

Um, and honestly, I've got some friends who are parents who are also kinky.

[01:05:05] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:05] Jason: And it's just like, it's very validating and rewarding- Mm ... just to be around them and hear like, "Oh yeah," like, you know, we're still these people. These are still, that's still us. And also we're at a stage of life right now with small children that, you know, that is not the main focus.

Yeah. The main focus is on the, you know, 3:00 AM feeding or whatever. Yeah. And, you know, it will be for a minute, but those, those parts of us still exist and are still there and still valid and, you know, and also will come back. That it is a, you know, it's a temporary- Yeah. Mm-hmm ... and it's not a complete even now, a complete break, but it is a temporary lessening to focus on some other stuff.

[01:05:44] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. A chapter, a different chapter.

[01:05:46] Jason: Yes, exactly. Right.

[01:05:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. I remember going to my first time in a, one of the public dungeons in Chicago and seeing intergenerational people in this space. Like, seeing people with old, um, gray hair getting flogged on a St. Andrew's cross, and it was such a moment where everything else had always been very age, you know, home play parties or other sorts of spaces- Yeah

like that. And I think it's, I think it's so essential to see people across the lifespan in these forums, right? And so, yeah, it's a chapter where, you know, down the line you could be back in that space or maybe your pleasure evolves or it certainly will evolve. We know that. Yeah. That your relationship just keeps evolving, but maybe that space does unveil in the future.

Wherever you're at, that's always gonna be a part of, of who you are and how you see yourself. But I, I really do hear that dichotomy of what it means to hold that identity while the parent part of yourself is so front forward and, and has to be prioritized.

[01:06:41] Jason: Mm-hmm. And I, and I think it is, you know, like, uh, you know, I was mentioning like friends and stuff.

I, I sometimes don't talk, um, a lot about my, my wife, Kat. She's incredible.

[01:06:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:06:53] Jason: Um, but she has been such a good, you know, partner in this, and I think it's been, you know, just, uh, of course like our conversations, 'cause we do talk about sex, um-

[01:07:05] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[01:07:05] Jason: and we do talk about intimacy, and we talk about kinda where we are.

And just sometimes those conversations have been so like validating and so like, you know. I think, I think a great thing about having a partner, especially when you're going through like a really, a really weird period, which having small children is really weird. Yeah, yeah. Uh, like there is... Like why is there peanut butter on the wall?

What, what, what, what happened here? Um, uh- Kids both

[01:07:33] Dr. Nicole: say, "It wasn't me. It wasn't me."

[01:07:35] Jason: Yeah. Gideon, Gideon has been running through the house with a, with a writing implement in both hands.

[01:07:40] Dr. Nicole: Oh, wow.

[01:07:41] Jason: And it's like, "What are, what are you doing, buddy? What are you doing?" And he like walks- Not on the walls ... to the wall and immediately- No.

like, you know, it's like graffiti everywhere. Um, and that's just like, you know, you just walk by and you're like, "No, ugh." You know, it's a lot of that. Um, and so- Cover it up

[01:07:52] Dr. Nicole: with paint.

[01:07:53] Jason: It's so easy to get like so into that, which in some ways is really great. Like it's-

[01:07:58] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[01:07:58] Jason: hey, there's a very clear thing I need to do in this moment, and that is to tackle my-

[01:08:03] Dr. Nicole: Oh,

[01:08:03] Jason: yeah

my one-year-old before he, you know, requires me to, uh, sand this down again.

[01:08:09] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:09] Jason: Um, not even the first time, just like again. Um, but then it also is, is so nice having somebody who really knows you- Mm ... and who's really connected to you to remind you of those other parts of yourself that you might- Yeah ... be forgetting.

Oh, yeah. Like, "Oh, hey, like this is still us two," and you know, like, "This is something we haven't like fed in a minute." Um- Mm-hmm ... even something as simple as like, uh, I'm, you know, like historically I've been a big gamer. I love- Mm ... D&D and role playing games- Yeah, yeah ... and, um, and my wife just like, you know, recently over the holidays was like, "Hey, you've really made sure I have time for my hobbies and doing stuff, and you've not been doing any of that."

Mm. "I really want you to, to get started and, and play a game. Like find some people, play a game." And so I had my first game like over the winter break, and I was like, "Ah." Yeah.

[01:09:01] Dr. Nicole: It feels so good. Okay. Yes. Yeah,

[01:09:04] Jason: yeah,

[01:09:04] Dr. Nicole: yeah. Yes. Yeah, I mean, it's so beautiful the way that relationships play such an essential part in our understanding of self, right?

Yes. Relationships are mirrors to different parts of ourselves and aspects, even historical things that we forget, and also they're windows, right? We get to see- Right ... into other people and their world and their universe and all of the ways that they see life truly, and then we keep going in this beautiful dance between the window and the mirror, the window and the mirror.

And I, I find it so incredibly beautiful that we get to play that role in each other's lives in terms of, um, the ways we bring each other back to self or authenticity. It's such a beautiful thing. Mm. And especially in long-term relationships where they've seen you through so many of the different, you know, chapters, eras of yourself and your life and your value system.

And I think, you know, there's, there's a real reality as we spoke to in terms of, you know, the things in my studio right now that are beautiful that I forget to acknowledge because of habituation, and it's so common in long-term relationships to have a habituation to our partners and- Yeah,

[01:10:14] Jason: yeah, yeah ...

[01:10:15] Dr. Nicole: at times to struggle with desire and, and not necessarily a lack of love.

I think that's such an important thing is that- Oh, yeah. Yeah,

[01:10:21] Jason: yeah ...

[01:10:22] Dr. Nicole: you can love your partner so deeply and then be like, "Where did the desire go? Where did the arousal go?" All of those sorts of things. And if we bring back that wisdom of, "Oh, yeah. Okay, I'm in my studio. There's these beautiful colors.

There's these beautiful this," right? When you bring back that moment of gratitude, you know, some of my longest term partnerships we do relationship reflection questions, and it's all positive psychology. It is on the, my website for free if anyone wants to download it. I've had some clients really thrive and loving this too.

Um- Mm-hmm ... it's all, like, positive psych questions, right? Of like, "How have I loved you well? What are our favorite moments?"

[01:10:55] Jason: Nice. Yeah,

[01:10:56] Dr. Nicole: yeah. "What does love mean to you?" All positive things, right? And like, man, I do, like, those things and I look across at my partner. I feel so much desire for them in a way that I just...

You habituate and you forget, right? And so I think it's really beautiful to speak to the power of long-term relationships, right? Mm-hmm. The parts that your wife is seeing in you that we forget, right? Yeah. These moments when we really slow down to have gratitude and really acknowledge the power of that, that's, at least for myself when the eroticism really takes off, 'cause I can, like, feel more of the things, kind of like the hot water I have that I don't even have gratitude for 'cause I'm just doing how many X things in a day, right?

It's like when I slow down, that's when the desire really takes off and the gratitude.

[01:11:41] Jason: That's awesome. Yeah. Totally true. I think, you know, that mindfulness and the The just slowing down and experiencing, you know, that sensing versus, you know, that, that autopilot that we can fall into with life- Yeah ... where it's just I just do the next thing.

I brush my teeth, and then I go do this, and then, and I haven't noticed, you know, anything about what I'm doing for, like, five minutes. Um-

[01:12:07] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[01:12:08] Jason: and so You know, I think there is so much to that, um, in l- the little reminders, whether it's sometimes, like, setting alarms or, you know- Yeah ... like, or having those intentional date nights of like, "Hey, let's, like, check, check in.

Let's, you know..." Even the, the, you know, classic of, you know, how do you like to be touched now, and how do you- Yeah. Yeah ... how does that... You know, we've had to do, um, a lot of that, like, with kids and, you know, body changes and, and I think that that's something that's, you know, it's good to do when you know there's a, an obvious change, and I also think it's something that's important to come and do, like, every once in a while regardless.

Like, even if- Yeah ... it's all the same answer, great.

[01:12:57] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:12:57] Jason: But sometimes people don't know. They haven't even clocked themselves that their preferences have changed, their- Oh, yeah ... interests have changed, you know, until they, they really slow it down and observe, like, "Hey, I normally like it this way, but do I like it this way now?"

I mean, going to that, like, you know, the most efficient form of masturbation is the best one, sometimes people find that and then, you know, weirdly can get a little bored while jerking off. Yeah. It's like, okay, all right, let's just go. Okay. And it's like, yeah, that's not... You're training yourself with bad habits.

Like-

[01:13:28] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[01:13:29] Jason: let's get into feeling pleasure. This is not... You know, sex with yourself shouldn't be about performance- Yeah ... and sex with your partner shouldn't be about performance. Let's try to get just in the moment and feel that pleasure and be very mindful.

[01:13:43] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:13:44] Jason: Uh, and, you know, whether or not you orgasm, you're gonna have a much better time.

[01:13:47] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Anyone who wants to have a better sex life, yeah, I say start to feel the pleasure and, like you mentioned, brushing your teeth. Yeah. You said you could just be brushing... Your... That can feel good, folks, you know? But are you thinking about... But first off, do you even feel the toothbrush?

That's the first question is to... You know, 'cause sometimes I'm there, "Oh, I gotta edit that, and da, da, da," and I'm not even feeling anything. Yeah. And then there's that next level of like, oh, right, like, in this moment, I can feel my hair on my skin, and that feels good, right? Like, so the more you start to notice that in all these areas that we're speaking to, the gratitude, the pleasure of that, that's what translates into your sex life.

You cannot go through all day of your w- life working, working, working, working, and then wanna get to the bedroom and flip this sort of pleasure switch- Mm ... where you're just like, "Now I think about how this feels in my body." You're quite literally from a, a, a neuro, you know, standpoint, you don't have the pathways fired enough for that to just go on its own.

Right. You know? And so yeah, the more we can get people to, like, slow down and be present and just notice somatic sensation, even if it's pain and you have chronic pain like myself, right? Like, there is, like, a level to that, that that is a unique experience- Yeah ... then, um, and partially why I got so passionate about pleasure, 'cause I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease when I was a child, so it's, like, chronic pain, so then it's, like- All right, I'm gonna build some pathways in the opposite direction 'cause the other side- Yeah

sucks, uh, so- Yeah ... that's like why that part of my brain is so strong now, and it's like the more you think about that, the more those neuronal pathways get there, and you can really stay in that space in a very different capacity.

[01:15:25] Jason: Absolutely.

[01:15:26] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:15:27] Jason: Yeah, I think it is You know, kinda choosing how you wanna feel.

Yeah. Um, and if you're not there today, that's okay. Oh, yeah. Sometimes just making a conscious decision of, like, "I'm gonna start to notice more of this. I'm gonna start to try and, um, act the way I wanna feel." Yep. Like a person who is feeling more pleasurable would be doing more pleasurable things- Mm-hmm

would be, um, slowing things down a bit, would be, um, maybe, maybe I'm gonna read a book on cool ways to masturbate and try a bunch of- Mm-hmm ... different things. I had... Like, one of the, the cutest couple things I've seen is I had a couple, I was, I was talking with them about trying to... You know, they were, they were coming back into it.

They were very nervous. Um, they hadn't had sex in a l- a long time- Mm ... and were just nervous about that intimacy reconnecting. Yeah. And so we were talking about things they could do that would be, like, lower pressure to, like- Sure ... start to explore and make this playful and fun.

[01:16:26] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:16:26] Jason: And they came up with a...

They had done some Google searches about, like, how many kisses are there. Aw. And so they had come up... And, and, like, one of the things had, like, a bunch of descriptions on all these- Yeah ... different kisses, and so they just spent, you know, like, a morning kissing each other. Mm. Like, just, like, just doing different types of kisses.

And it's like-

[01:16:43] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[01:16:43] Jason: how lovely. Yeah. Like, how great. Um- Mm-hmm ... how romantic. And just, like, yeah, if you're... You know, if you're doing the things that you would do when feeling the thing, you're probably gonna be more likely to feel it. Your life-

[01:16:57] Dr. Nicole: Right ...

[01:16:58] Jason: is gonna start to change. And, you know, if you're... Like, I also have chronic pain.

If you're a person who has chronic pain and you're just tracking, like, "When's my next chronic pain? I gotta make that chronic pain go away. It's gotta stop." Yeah. "And I gotta... When it... Is it gonna happen again, and am I feeling it right now?" Right, right. Like, the more you focus and think- Ugh ... about that, the greater that magnitude becomes.

Yeah. And also you can say, like, "Well, that pain is gonna be going on in, in the side here," and then what else is happening? Oh, yeah. You know, like, what else do I wanna give energy to, and what else do I wanna feed? Um-

[01:17:27] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And sometimes orgasm is the only release from those flare-ups, when you're just like- Yeah

"Fuck. Okay, I'm gonna get this," and then for those split couple of seconds, oh, yeah. Yeah,

[01:17:38] Jason: yeah, yeah.

[01:17:40] Dr. Nicole: Very real, very real. Well, Jason, we've covered so much in our time. Covered so much. I know, and I know there's always more.

[01:17:49] Jason: Yeah, yeah,

[01:17:50] Dr. Nicole: yeah. That's always, always a grief as we come towards the end, but I'm gonna take that deep breath with you.

[01:17:55] Jason: Okay.

[01:17:58] Dr. Nicole: And I'll check in and see if there's anything else you wanna share with the listeners. Otherwise- Uh ... I have a closing question. Yeah.

[01:18:05] Jason: Oh, I do have... I have a fun thing. Yeah, tell us. So we... You know, the practice has been expanding, um, is when the, this podcast goes live, it will have been Around for three or four months, but we are opening up a new big office in- Ooh

Andersonville. Oh,

[01:18:22] Dr. Nicole: so

[01:18:22] Jason: close to me. Uh-

[01:18:23] Dr. Nicole: Amazing.

[01:18:24] Jason: Yeah, it's like a seven-suite. It's right around- Cool ... the corner from Lady, Lady Gregory's. Okay, yeah. It's right by Alley Cat Comics-

[01:18:30] Dr. Nicole: Nice ...

[01:18:31] Jason: um, on Berwyn. So yeah, it's, it's- Amazing ... very exciting. Um, we've got a bunch of great new therapists. Um, and we're looking into expanding services like psych testing and doing some other stuff- Mm-hmm

with-

[01:18:43] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[01:18:44] Jason: you know, uh, queer aware, um- Yeah,

[01:18:47] Dr. Nicole: it's an essential ...

[01:18:49] Jason: absolutely, psych testing. So yeah, very excited.

[01:18:52] Dr. Nicole: Oh, well, congratulations. Again- Thanks ... what a testament to how much our community is growing and expanding.

[01:18:57] Jason: Absolutely.

[01:18:58] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. All right, Jason. This was lovely. Yeah. The one question-

[01:19:04] Jason: Yes ...

[01:19:04] Dr. Nicole: that I ask everyone on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:19:13] Jason: Oh, that's a good one.

[01:19:15] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:19:18] Jason: I think I wish that, uh, um, other people knew it was more normal to be both excited and afraid about this topic. Mm. Like, I think it is... There's so many people that have anxiety around sexuality, especially in our culture, and I think it is understandable. There's so much misinformation- Yeah ... and so much of the information we get is from, uh, sources which aren't always realistic.

And so, uh, almost everyone coming into it has insecurities. Like I'm, you know, too orgasmic, I'm not orgasmic enough. Um, you know, I can't get hard enough, I can't get hard enough fast enough. Mm. My... You know, like 80% of, of people with penises think their penis is below average size. Mm. Like, you know, um-

[01:20:06] Dr. Nicole: Yeah

[01:20:07] Jason: and it is sad. Like, one of the things that I, I tell a lot of my, uh, supervisees is I really want, um, all of my folks with specialties around sexuality to also get training in anxiety- Mm ... because it is such... It's so prevalent. It is such a common cause of sexual dysfunction. Yeah. Um, and, you know, cutting through anxiety and shame, um, is, is really in some ways been my life's work, uh- Mm.

You know?

[01:20:38] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:20:39] Jason: There, there's so much... And it's, the nice thing is it's so easy. Like there's sometimes it's... People are so afraid, and if, um, they can build up the trust to tell you the thing they're afraid about, it's like, oh. Oh, honey, that was- Yes. Like I, I had a, I had this really, really, really lovely person once who was like, "I've got a micropenis and I feel so insecure about it."

Mm. After, you know, so many years of working- Yeah ... with this person, I'm like, "Oh. Well, like- Yes ... that is not... Like, we can work with this. Yes. This is not so scary. Yeah. Um, absolutely there's people with micropenises that have fantastic sex lives.

[01:21:12] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[01:21:12] Jason: But also, like be real with me. Tell me like what are we packing?

Are we like, like half an inch? Oh. Are we like an inch? Like, what are we, what are we looking at?

[01:21:18] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:21:19] Jason: And he's like, "Oh, well, like five and a half." Stop. And I'm like, "I'm sorry, five and a half inches?" He's like, "Yeah, yeah, five and a half inches." Like, you know, micropenis. And I'm like, "Oh, friend, no."

[01:21:30] Dr. Nicole: This is the...

Yeah, no.

[01:21:31] Jason: But this had been getting in- Oh, no ... in the way of relationships with this person for

[01:21:35] Dr. Nicole: years.

[01:21:35] Jason: Oh. And I was like-

[01:21:36] Dr. Nicole: My heart,

[01:21:36] Jason: my heart ... oh, no. Yeah. You know, like this is just, this is the world we live in where people are, are scared, um- Oh, yeah ... around intimacy and pleasure. And, you know, even like I think so often about the experience that, um, so many folks have in graduate schools- Mm

where even, even saying as a professional I wanna study this and learn more about it, it... Like in the past, it's less so now, it's still somewhat- Oh, yeah ... was a, was a, was absolutely a, a red mark against you. Like that was a- Yeah ... you're kind of a weirdo, and we're gonna put you to the edge, and it's gonna be a little bit harder for you to get through your program if you, if you keep up on this stuff.

And how sad is that? Like, you know- Oh, yeah ... we create a world that is driven by fear and driven, um, by anxiety rather than connection. And so I think- Yeah ... I think we could be doing it better.

[01:22:33] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Lest we forget that homosexuality was in the DSM, that kink- Uh-huh ... um, nymphomania, especially women, like we cannot forget- Sure

that that's the long history of our field. And yeah, every time when I was going through grad school, I remember, you know, it's that first class where people ask, "Oh, what are you passionate about? What are you s- you know, what are you interested in doing and specializing in?" I would always be shaking, like that moment of like, yeah, is this professor gonna look at me and laugh or judge when I say sexuality- Yeah

and non-monogamy and queerness, and some of them did. Some of them, some of them straight up told me that non-monogamy never works. And Lord, that lit the fire- ... under my ass. I was like, "Okay."

[01:23:14] Jason: Well, so, and so one thing we have research on is that monogamy always works- ... and has never, never been problematic in the history of the world.

So that's good.

[01:23:22] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. Yeah, and that, that edge between anxiety and growth is so real. I've been having discovery calls for my upcoming, um... By the time this comes out, it will have already occurred, but my pleasure liberation sexuality group that I start in February, and- Fun. Yeah, it's like these small person groups.

We do psycho ed of content, and I'm teaching sex ed, and then we do processing. And when I have my discovery calls with folks, they're like, "You're telling me I'm gonna talk about my sex life with six other people and you?" And I'm like, "Yes." And they're like, "Oh, I'm scared," but I also know that that's the next step, and it's like that edge right there- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

of, of the fear and excitement. And, and it's like- Yeah ... if I can hold you in that space to say like, "Yeah, just trust me and come in, and we'll talk about it," that's where that transformation happens. But if people are waiting for that moment where they don't have anxiety to hop into containers or therapy rooms, like, you will never hop in because this is just a topic that has so much to it.

And so it's almost like you have to kind of- Right ... step up to the plate with that and say like, "Hey, I'm here to work on literally this feeling that's coming with this association to this." And, and that's where you can have that transformative moment, like your client who shares. Yeah. Right? Or the client who thinks they have a porn addiction 'cause they watch it once a week.

Yeah. You know? And you're like, "Oh, buddy, no. No." Right. Uh, well, Jason, it was such a joy to have you on the podcast today. Thank you for coming back. Absolutely.

[01:24:46] Jason: Yeah. Yeah, love it. Would come back again in the future- When ... since I'm a friend of the pod, obviously.

[01:24:52] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Absolutely, absolutely. I'll, I'll reach back out in another five.

We'll see where your pleasure is at- Perfect. Perfect ... once the kids are older- Yeah ... and check in. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:25:00] Jason: Oh, yeah. Yeah. That, this will be a good, uh, longitudinal study. Yeah. Of course.

[01:25:03] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Well, I'm sure all the listeners are dying to know, how can they connect with you? How can they learn more about your work, the communities that you're building?

[01:25:13] Jason: Yeah. Um, a lot of really exciting stuff is happening. So the website is besttherapies.org. We have such a phenomenal group of just really cool- uh, therapists and humans. We have, uh, folks who are, um, psychologists and social workers, and, uh, we have people with PhDs. We have people with, um, LMFTs. Like, we just have a, a really wide range, and we, we really put so much emphasis on great clinical training and skills.

So it's, it's a solid group. You can go to the website and directly book appointments from there. Um, there's, like, a Book an Appointment button. Um, you can also reach out to the website, and that will, uh, give you numbers to call, uh, if you want more hand-holding or questions. Uh, I am not on social media as much as I used to be because it is, uh, so bad for your brain.

Yeah. So I've been staying away from it. Uh- Healthy

[01:26:16] Dr. Nicole: choices.

[01:26:17] Jason: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but we're... Yeah, we're doing a lot. We have groups. We have individual therapy, couples counseling. We work... We've got people that work with kids, especially, like, queer, uh, kids. Like, yeah, so lots and lots of options. Um, if you're looking for a therapist or know someone who is, uh, send them our way.

[01:26:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Amazing. I'll have all of that linked in the show notes below, dear listeners. You can just head on over there, and you'll find all of the links to Jason and Best Therapy. So thank you again, Jason- Yeah. Thank you ... for joining us today. Dear listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Modern Anarchy.

Thank you for sharing this episode with your friends, with your lovers, with your community. Truly, it means so much to me, and I am so grateful that you are here. If you are wanting to release jealousy in your non-monogamous dynamics and step into compersion and pleasure-filled connection, you can read my book, The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide, for free on my website.

There, you will also find so many other free resources, including worksheets on how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non-monogamous dynamics and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure-filled sex and relationships.

So head on over to modernanarchypodcast.com to find all of those free resources, and I look forward to seeing you next week