285. Another Slutty World is Possible - Mike Reisner

0:27

On today's episode we have my join us for a conversation about the cultural paradigm shift of Ethical Slut Hood.

Together we talk about the transformative joy of snuggle piles, getting off the sex escalator, and the non monogamous mistakes we've made along the way.

0:46

Hello dear listener and welcome back to modern Anarchy.

I'm so delighted that you are here learning about your pleasure and tuning in with the pleasure activists from around the world.

My name is Doctor Nicole, I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing a psychedelic assisted psychotherapy author, the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide, and the first study on relationship anarchy.

1:11

And I teach students from around the world how to craft pleasurable sex lives and non monogamous relationships.

Dear listener, have you ever heard of the dyadic black hole?

Dear listener, a dyadic black hole.

1:28

This, this is a space where two people come together and often their relationship escalator, all these other things kind of come together and then they run off and they are caught.

Where do these people go?

1:45

They fell in love.

I don't know.

They disappeared, no longer connecting with the friends, the ecosystems, until it blows up, until there's escalations, until there's so many other things.

And y'all, no matter what you're doing in terms of your relationship structures, I don't care how many people you're having sex with.

2:04

We all need community, OK?

Please water your gardens.

Love your people and spread it out.

Care for the people that you know the people that you see what does it mean to make sure that we're intentional with our time and energy.

2:21

We're going to get into that and so much more on today's episode with MM is clearly here right.

A deep pleasure activist in the scene and works alongside Dr. Eli who just had another episode on the show.

2:36

Jay Listener, if you want to go a few episodes back, it's a do educated women choose polyamory?

What a fun, cheeky, cheeky title.

So go check out that and learn more about this ecosystem that Mike lives in and works in.

And it's also such a joy to get to share these stories and hold space for Mike's journey.

2:56

And I'm just so delighted that you are here, dear listener.

All right, dear listener, if you're ready to liberate your pleasure, you can head on over to modernanarchypodcast.com.

That's where you'll find my resources, free ebooks and worksheets and so many other letters that get into attachment theory and all of that because free educational resources are so important in today's world.

3:23

All of that can be found at modernanarchypodcast.com, LinkedIn, the show notes below.

And I want to say the biggest thank you to my Patreon supporters.

Thank you for supporting me and the show and this educational work the last five years.

So a joy to be growing alongside you and to share so much of my personal life with you.

3:45

And with that dear listener.

Please know that I'm sending you all my love and let's tune into today's episode.

And so the first question that I love to ask each guest on the show is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

4:11

Sure, so I have kind of a long laundry list of situationality if that's the word I want.

So I'm queer, kinky, pan Polly, I am Puerto Rican and Jewish.

4:27

I have CPTSD.

I'm a Demi male in my mid 40s.

I'm married with and partnered to another couple, I'm a licensed mental health counselor in New York State, I do data and tech for addiction hotlines across a few States, and I'm director of education for the Center for Positive Sexuality.

4:46

Woo Hoo.

Welcome to modern anarchy.

Those are all the things on the show.

You know, it's it's very aligned.

Very aligned.

Yeah, well, Mike, I'm so curious.

Tell me about your pleasure liberation journey.

5:03

Did you just wake up in this space?

Was it rough?

Where do you come from?

How did you get here?

I have always been the weirdo kid.

We love those.

I figured out how to be sexually pleasurable of myself before elementary school.

5:25

Sure, normal.

Very normal.

Right.

Totally normal.

So because I am a dinosaur, I was one of the people that helped set up like the Queer Straight Alliance in my high school.

And I've always sort of just been out like to the point where I was like 12, my friends were just like, oh, you're, you're not straight, right?

5:47

You know that, right?

And I'm like, cool, cool, cool.

We can keep rolling with this.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nice.

Yeah, So a lot of my time, I've always kind of worked in liberation in different ways.

I've worked for, not for profits for forever.

I have always worked with trans queer people, people who have autism, people who are kinky, like, yeah, like anyone who's a weirdo, it's just like, oh, come hang out.

6:15

Let's figure out how to do fun things in the universe.

Yeah, absolutely.

And what a muscle that is of creativity, right?

Yeah, it's very fun.

And I don't know, I think those are the humans who are the most fun to surround yourself with are the people who are going to be creative and be like, yeah, I want to go to the Estonian restaurant 3 states away.

6:38

Let's go try it out.

Let's go make some fun.

Let's make some magic.

So it sounds like you come from a space where this was easy to step into.

You didn't have to deal with a lot of judgment or societal pressure at the time.

Obviously, the systems are always there, but I I noticed you didn't name that as a part of your journey.

6:59

Go ahead.

Yeah, sure.

So my upbringing was a little interesting.

So I grew up in a super wealthy area in downstate New York, but my parents had severe personality disorders and drug addiction and were also sort of anarchistic in nature.

7:20

So I was kind of taught that rules don't really exist.

So I kind of did my thing.

Lots of systemic challenges, which we can totally go into, right?

And stuff like that.

Like, I'm definitely still very aware of being scanned of like, oh, who is this human being here?

7:39

Right, of course, of course.

But anarchist parents is a big starting point.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

That's so cool that you started in that space though, and I'm sure that gave you a lot of ability to question some of the main storylines that are given to us around sexuality.

8:02

Yeah, it was funny because they were on the not homophobic in the global sense, but like very NIMBY.

Like, I remember I was part of a youth group for like a million years and I remember telling them a story about how the leader of the youth group had came out to their parents and they were like, oh, you won't know that for a few years.

8:28

Like one of those kind of lines.

And I distinctly remember my mom being like, why would you ever need to come out to your parents?

You don't need to do that.

You can just totally live your entire life and not say that stuff.

And I'm like, oh, OK, I'll go do all these other things.

Don't mind the poster of the leasing of Sublime with no shirt on all over my bedroom walls.

8:47

That means nothing.

Yeah, don't look at that.

No questions.

Do you remember what your sex Ed was in school?

Do you remember what it looked like?

Don't get people pregnant.

Classic.

I, I think we had the video that showed sperm under the microscope, but no explanation for where the sperm came from.

9:14

And I remember the vagina, uterus having people in my class being horrified because I brought out a bucket of water, put in a tampon and then it came out super inflated and they were like, where does all this fluid come from?

Like they were starting like gallons.

9:34

Yeah.

So I'm not hearing pleasure as a part of any of that, no.

No, no, no, no.

I know maybe one of these days I'll get a guest who'll be like, actually Doctor Nicole, I had like, yes.

Yes, it was all the vibrators and Teluguldonics as far as you can see.

9:54

I know, I know.

I run the sexuality groups and I like every time I do it, it's like, yeah, we have to do genitals, we have to do toys, we do pleasure, we do the whole thing.

You know, it's like the sex Ed that I wish I would have had rather than abstinence only, which is it's all other thing.

But yeah, yeah.

10:11

Yeah, yeah.

In a previous existence when I had, I used to do a lot of child and adolescent therapy.

So a lot of my work was actually providing more information.

Like I had a lot of them have very cool parents.

10:28

I sort of lived in a hippie area.

But it was always interesting to to explain like they're like, why would people have sex?

It doesn't seem like a fun oh.

No.

Oh no, Like, Oh no.

Wait, it can be.

It can be.

Yeah.

10:43

Exactly what are you hearing?

So sad.

So sad, Yeah.

And so I loved going historically, right?

So it's, I love that sort of unfolding.

So you're, you're in the sexta, they're giving you the basics, but your parents are anarchists, your first queer experience.

11:02

What does that look like?

How did that unfold for you?

So my very, very first queer experience was I was at a party the day after some year of school ended.

There was a truth or dare with a person from a school I'd never met before so ended up smooching him.

11:25

But.

My actual more like queer, queer first experience was there was a very there was a person in high school that we essentially used to compare puberty notes with each other because there was not other info.

11:42

Sure.

And eventually we're just like, what if we did a Wiener thing, which I thought was cool.

And then they were just like, actually no.

And I'm like OK, cool, but it's fine.

12:00

They apparently are now married and have many children, so good for them.

Yeah, different paths.

Different paths, Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And so at that time in your life, are you feeling joyous or shame?

12:18

I know there's so much context of the time in your terms of generational, but you have these anarchist parents.

Like what was it like for you at that time?

So I've always been a person of size.

I was much, much bigger when I was younger so that I had found some to have any sexual contact with the.

12:39

Sure.

And I found it to be, like, very affirming because it's one of those, sure, I'm looking at all the porn on the Internet, but do I really want to do this?

Yeah, Joy was definitely in there.

12:56

It was also kind of fun because it was like the space was in a back alley with a Plymouth Voyager from like 1986 with like the Giant beige fuzzy seats kind of thing.

So it was very, it was, it was very after school special of what not to do.

13:16

Yeah, I mean, it's such a different time too, with the Internet, Internet not being available.

I So I was actually on the Internet before the Internet.

I was dialing up into bulletin boards in people's basements.

So I was one of those kids where people come over to my house because I knew how to get the porn before the Internet existed.

13:37

Yeah, kids these days won't won't ever know anything else, will they?

No, 3 hours to download one image.

That's not that great, you know?

Yeah.

Compared to what can happen now, Wild, wild, wild, yeah.

13:52

And so when does not monogamy come into your journey for you?

Is that from the beginning or is it later down the line?

How does that unfold?

Sure.

So I've always bit in and out of relationships with it.

For me personally, like having sex with people can be an expression of deep attachment and feeling.

14:15

But often it's like a cool activity to do with people you care about and love.

So it's like, come over, we'll have snacks.

We will play the new video game.

Also genitals.

Yeah.

Genitals.

Cool.

Why not?

Oh no, we'll have some brownies.

14:31

Awesome.

Yeah, probably the first time it super came up is with one of my early long term girlfriends where she was going to go work at a Girl Scout camp and was like, just so you know, there may be attractive ladies there that I might get with.

14:54

And I was like, yeah, that's cool.

Go have a great time.

Wow, is that what happens at Girl Scouts?

At least for the people who are the counsellors, OK.

Fascinating.

I sign up, What am I?

15:11

Go for it.

I cannot speak for it.

I have never been to Girl Scout camp.

This is just the reports I have heard.

I have not.

Someone else was like another guest was like Renfair.

Apparently all the workers at a Renfair you know.

I have so have a friend who also didn't work at Renfair but was there for like a summer and was like, yeah, they kept inviting me to like naked in the woods and then just like come to the meat parties and she was like, maybe I'm so.

15:40

Funny, I'm so funny.

I have her cruise ship workers too.

Like all these like little ecosystems or just people are having fun?

I used to work at a camp for people with intellectual and developmental diversity and yeah, yeah, it was great.

15:56

I was there for a million years, but every year there's like a blackboard like in a back habit and it would end up looking like the like relationship web from the L Word where it's just like.

Absolutely.

Which, okay, the smaller the community you have in terms of this, the more skill building you need to have pretty damn quickly, you know what I mean?

16:20

So like a camp counselor sort of situation where all of that is happening, you're going through so much rupture and repair conflict skills, ideally clear communication, you know, ideally your face, you're like.

You're asking for a lot from like a bunch of international 18 to 22 year olds.

16:37

Right, right.

Right.

Right, right, right, right.

You know what, Mike?

I'm an internal optimist, I'll tell you that.

And it's bitten me a few times out in the real world where I'm like, we can all do this.

We cannot.

Oh, God, this is this is much harder than I thought.

Wow.

OK, Yeah.

16:52

Tell me about what some of your early non monogamy experiences.

What did those look like for you?

Yeah.

So a lot of it was varying levels of like, permission's not quite the right word, but it's like, how much knowledge do you want to know about the other people?

17:12

I started off very classically very early when it was like like if I was with an opposite sex partner it was like sure you can go hook up with same sex but please keep opposite sex.

Internal yes.

17:28

Very common, yes.

But that just sort of evolved out of it.

I've always sort of had what I would call like platonic molecules where we live in each other's houses and uncles to a bunch of kids and stuff like that.

And yeah, it just sort of evolved and eventually I partnered with my now husband.

17:54

And during that there was always the option of openness.

But we had so much like we have to survive.

We lived in a cockroach infested apartment in Brooklyn.

He was finishing APHD.

Yeah.

So while the idea of another human sounds cool, the ability to do that would have just, like, shattered my mind, yeah.

18:13

It's a lot, yeah.

Yeah, but you know, more recently, again, with the more of the rise of the Internet and field and stuff like that and time, space and therapy and medication, it's just like, oh, who are these awesome people like 60 miles away?

18:29

Cool.

Yeah, in about 60 miles away and next state over.

I have a main partner who I've been with for about a year.

She is very awesome.

She has a nesting partner who I am also.

18:49

We all have fun together, you know.

And like, would I call him my partner?

Is he my lover?

Sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then one of his main non nesting partners is now also joining us.

19:07

So it's a slowly expanding like.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

It's a network, right?

Constellation of beautiful people who all know how to play together, I'm sure in multiple different areas of intimacy, sex, board games, the whole thing, right?

19:24

The whole thing's alive, that was.

That was it.

My main partner has seen virtually no movies as she grew up.

So it's like, Oh well, we all now have to sit and watch like Serial Mom together because it's a very important movie you've missed out on so.

19:40

OK OK, I haven't seen it either.

Should I add this to my list?

It's probably the best John Waters movie to start with because it has a plot and is the most John Waters E It's not my favorite.

I like very weird music and movies.

So I would say like desperate living where that movie is.

19:58

Oh that's really wild, even for like a John Waters movie.

Got it.

OK, let's take it.

Small dose, small dose small.

Dose right, right, right, right like if people mingos is a lot this is like what's happening.

Got it, got it, got it.

But those are the best nights, like when you're with your polycool, your community, and the the snuggle pile that you can create.

20:19

Absolutely.

It's so nice.

It's so nice.

I know everyone's like, oh, the sex part, which is great, don't get me wrong, don't get me wrong, but like the snuggle pile, the.

Snuggle pile was the best.

Like, that's it.

It's just like, yeah, I just want to be cuddled.

And I'm a very sensory person.

20:35

So if like, oh, this person's doodling my back, perfect.

I'm good.

You all can do whatever you want.

I'll just be here.

It's slightly curled up in a puppy position.

Totally, and it feels so good for our bodies, you know, with just our nervous systems, the ability to Co regulate in that and have that connection, the Aussie, the Oxy Tosin of it all when we're so connected.

20:55

Oh gosh, I don't think my younger self could have imagined like hey Nicole, like one day you'll be older watching movies and a big cuddle pile of all these people that you deeply trust and love like.

Yeah.

Whoa, yeah, that's cool.

Oh yeah, absolutely.

21:13

I I was think back of the also also being younger, I've always been more of like a modified person with like piercings and tattoos and like, oh, I had, I got my first one.

I was like 15.

I wonder if I'll get more someday.

I'm like, yeah, now you have a tongue.

21:28

You got it all in your hand.

Yeah.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

You just keep living into the authenticity as it goes, as it goes.

Yeah.

Well, going back to what you had said too at the beginning in terms of the gender dynamics, I feel like that's such a common experience for many people in terms of if we're talking about, I don't want to say developmental stages of non monogamy, but common experiences that we see when people come into this world in terms of saying it's, it's like the one penis policy, right.

22:00

We talk about that a lot in the community of Oh dear listener, if you're not familiar, it's some couples will have a policy where typically this is an assist head sort of framework that the woman can explore with other people, but it just they just can't have a penis.

22:20

And it's very this like CIS head framework of controlling in that way.

I always wonder if a dildo counts or not, but I assume in those frameworks that's not really what they're thinking about it.

You know, I'm like, does the dildo at the strap like, no, yes, no, yeah.

22:35

But it all comes from that, right.

So part of, I think what, what we see in those sort of patterns are the, the narratives that we have about our security in our lives.

And I, I too, you know, in the beginning of my journey, really felt very threatened by someone who has the same gender as me of as if there's only one spot, one place that I could hold in that other person's life.

23:00

But it was if it was something that was queer or a different gender, like it felt less threatening because it was like, well, I've got my spot over here as the woman, you know, like what you know.

So it's really interesting how common that is in our in our communities, I think when people are first coming into this sort of framework work and orientation and paradigm.

23:20

Yeah, well, so I I think that also makes people think about the idea that like same sex relationships are lesser in some way.

And yeah, yes, my heart like I'm.

So gay.

I'm like, don't know.

No, no.

No, it's real, I swear.

23:36

Just yeah, it's so good.

And also within that is like, I don't know, I while you were talking about that, it made me reflect on the like, times are changing in growing up in late 80s, early nineties, 2000s.

23:55

But still like the terrible messaging of like, no, doesn't necessarily mean no, it means ask again later.

And like, just like stuff that's not even explicitly taught to you as like, Oh, this is like what you should be doing.

24:13

It's just like the the milieu of the time and the space.

Totally.

And just like taking out of your brain and chunks is like, it's also one of those where you think you've gotten it all out, but it's like sand from the beach.

And then like a week later you're like, oh, you're also behind the couch.

24:31

I didn't.

Even.

Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly.

Yeah.

That's where I'm always walking that delicate line between cultural humility of what we crave and feel is quote, UN quote, innate and also the liberation part of me that is very critical of the systems and the ways that that impacts our desires and what we crave or consider to be normal.

24:56

Some of my favorite examples of that are even just ankles, right.

When we think about the fact that in our Western culture, there was a a period of time where if I showed my ankle on the street, I'd be called a whore.

And like, people would be fantasizing about me sexually in ways that in our Western culture and not even around the world, because right around the world that still can have its its place in different cultures where there is more covering of the body.

25:19

But in the Western culture that does nothing.

And so I it's like, if I were to show my ankle, are you going to be turned on?

Most people be like, no, you know, that just doesn't do it for me.

And I'm like, OK, that's because of the culture we live in.

Yeah.

And the place that we are in.

I don't know if you're a sci-fi person, but there's the ancillary series.

25:39

Not familiar.

Won a bunch of awards.

So the first book, in my opinion, is the best 1 and essentially involves a robot AI.

But the plot is the robot is a totally accurate reporter except when it comes to the gender of the person they're speaking with.

25:58

And yeah, it's very cool.

Totally worth reading because it totally shifts your perception on your interlocutors and what's happening.

But one of the sort of plot points is that in this version of the future, genitals are not considered like, private or taboo, but hands are.

26:14

So everyone has to wear gloves.

And having an exposed hand is considered like, exceptionally erotic and deviant.

And like, people can't play instruments because it's like, too difficult.

It's very interesting.

Wow.

Yeah, Yeah.

It does sound very interesting.

26:30

A little bit into my psyche is my undergrad degree was in English literature.

I minored in chem and philosophy.

So there's a whole other world of things I was doing at the time.

But I studied English literature and I like haven't really read books since you know, like, you know, like I believe.

26:46

It I believe it.

It really, like, pushed it on me.

And then I got out and I was like, no, I'm going to read nonfiction like nothing.

I just need details and facts.

And then I went to grad school and I'm like, doctor.

So like your girl has not sat down for a book in a long time like.

27:03

Oh, so now I really want to pester you about like, what were the books?

And also like, who were the philosophers?

Were you reading like Dichtenstein and like the Continental people?

Yeah, content Kant.

Like straight up just Kant.

I'm so sorry for you.

27:19

Thank you.

Thank you for understanding what that yeah, ontological blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Nope.

That's cool you can have them.

I don't need pants.

I'll stick with what's his name.

Fuko is my best friend.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And he's got a lot to say about the systems of power and how deep they are and are unconscious, so I'll fuck with that.

27:38

Yeah.

Spinoza, like these, you know, like.

And particularly because I was so religious, I went to a Lutheran college and so I spent a good chunk of time and like Eastern sort of the West versus Eastern concepts on God.

27:54

Like I should have took a whole class about the Trinity and how the East versus the West of Aristotle and all these different people were interpreting what God means.

You know, So it's funny just to think where I'm at now and how much time, like truly just time in my little dorm I was spending just going.

28:10

But the the English was much more mixed.

It was like, you know, plays and literature.

I really loved the Brontes.

That was always my favorite.

Like some gothic romance, sort of like really thick prose or anything feminist.

Every single paper I wrote was from a feminist lens and very single time.

28:29

All all very cool.

I I my brain down to super derail the conversation and like have conversations about what is it centering prayer and interior castles and feminist liberation theology.

I've studied many a thing in my universal home.

28:47

I was like, oh someone else who knows the thing like.

Totally.

I mean, man, I want to go back.

I want to go back and when I have more free time and study like the early, more like women's spirituality, not all the Co opted stuff from the white Western Jesus thing, but like more of the women's texts around sacred spirituality and sexuality.

29:07

And even within the Christian space there were a lot of different practices of devotion to God that were very kinky in terms of like yeah, yeah.

I've talked to a couple dominatrix who have studied more of that and told me about the self flag you flaglulation.

29:22

That's how you say that.

Word Yeah.

Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stuff like that, that I'm just like, fascinated.

They didn't teach me that at Sunday School, like.

There's there's a few horror, there's a more than a few, but there's this really intense horror movie where essentially this woman's name is Alucardo, which is Dracula backwards.

29:45

And it starts, it's very, it's Italian 80s horror.

So it's always very weird.

But like all the nuns are wrapped up like mummies.

And you're like, why are they all wrapped up like mummies?

And they're just because they're hardcore flagellating all day to find God.

Yeah.

30:02

And.

I also think about, I never forget her name, the Carmelite nun who is one of the fathers of the church or whatever.

The intro to Interior castles is like the most I am over all the dudes in my life.

It's very like, it's very power lesbian, like I'm just a woman.

30:21

But I guess if you want me to answer these questions, here's all the answers for you, you stupid nothing.

And it's like, oh shit.

Yeah, there's a lot more there than what you're taught.

You know a lot more there.

Have you read Radical Ecstasy by Janet and Dossy?

30:40

I do not think so.

OK, but you know Janet and Dossy from The Ethical Slut?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

OK, yeah, listener, They also wrote the new topping book, the new bottoming book.

They have a book called Radical Ecstasy.

I know you're looking it up right now, so correct me if I'm wrong, but the title is like transcend transcendent experiences through S&M.

31:03

Sure.

Yeah.

I believe that.

Yeah, exactly.

It's not in print anymore, so I don't really know how, where or why what, you know, publish.

I'm sure there's things with publishing, blah, blah, blah.

I have no idea, right?

But that book has a lot to it.

31:20

You can find it you know still in like eBay and other.

Places I I will hunt it down.

And you should.

I love it.

Yeah.

I mean, also within that, like I've done a lot of work through Tantra, but not like Western Tantra, like esoteric Buddhism where you're like, sure, I've had sex with the thought form of this vakini to figure out what it's like to be this experience kind of thing.

31:44

And it's very in there, yeah.

Fascinating.

And all of this, I think is really just creating more space for us to to step away from the shame around something that is so human to be with our bodies, to connect with other people and to experience pleasure.

32:01

So any of these pathways, I think it's really about releasing so much of the judgement that I'm sure you felt at different points.

And I certainly felt, and as you said, it's like the sand in our lives.

I'm always talking about in this podcast how like we will get to the end of our lives still going well, shit, I didn't know how deep that was over there that I could have cleaned out.

32:23

You know, like there it is again.

Here's the desirability politics, here's that.

And the balance, of course, with that is always that when I'm working with my clients, so many of us are very like forward thinkers.

We're like, OK, next thing, next thing.

How do I clean this?

32:38

How do I get better here?

How do I unpack this?

How do I get even more away from all these systems?

But often forgetting to look back and be like, oh, well, I actually came from a lot, you know, and to like sit in that nuanced duality of the yes.

And if like, there's always going to be more sand, there's always going to be more sand.

32:59

OK.

And also, did you enjoy the day at the beach?

Like did you have fun?

Right.

Yes, absolutely.

Well, but I think that has to be like a permanent thing because if you're an evolving human through an unfolding universe, how how would today match up with 20 years ago?

33:17

If you're not working and going forward and going backwards, maybe that's a sentence.

Totally, totally.

Sometimes I've had clients who go through my programs, they're like, I've seen this stuff before and I'm like, no, I know you, you, you know it all, don't you?

33:34

Right.

Like, like it's always like there's like a humble beginner to this stuff.

Even the, the stuff that I teach that I've made, I have the curriculum for, you know, like I made this like, yeah, I know like.

But every time you come to it with fresh eyes, fresh perspectives, a little bit more nuanced.

33:50

And each time, like I really do think the humble beginner mindset is one of the wisest things to have in this lifetime of just like, I do not know it all actually.

I'm going to continue to like, look, examine, get more curious about all of it every time because like you're saying, there's always more.

34:08

Yeah, yeah.

Also, who was it?

We do and do not step into the same river twice.

That is that Heraclitus or is that?

I think so, yes, that sounds OK.

See is my is my philosophy minor showing Hello hello.

34:24

And then Disney.

Yes, yeah.

Thank you and then Disney took that though with with Pocahontas, which is interesting.

I mean there's a lot of problems with let's you know, but that's that in the song.

It's the colors of the wind.

She says that never stuck in the same river twice.

34:40

Interest that's.

One of the Disneys from that era that I have not seen.

Yeah, it's, it's a lot of white propaganda is what that is right there.

So.

I I don't know that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

34:56

And so in your Poly journey, let's see, you were talking a little bit more about stepping into these different community spaces with the groups that you're in, your first partner there, partner that you're exploring this with.

What were some of the pitfalls or the the webs that you kind of walked into of mistakes?

35:15

I know I have many in mind.

I think it's helpful to share with listeners who are in the journey with us, you know?

Yeah, one of the big ones was me trying to be as honest as I could with where I was and what kind of relationship I could have, and the other person saying, yes, that's cool, and them not actually being cool and then being mad that I was honest.

35:47

I don't.

Yeah, like I had a few partners where I was like, it's cool you want to be together.

That's great.

This is not long term.

You're in a situational thing or you're like, you know, I really like getting coffee with you.

36:02

I don't think we'd work as like a nested couple.

If you want to hook up, cool, let's go.

And they're like, yeah, that sounds delightful.

And then get a phone call like we can half later.

It's like, so I think we should really be exclusive.

36:19

And mind you like, yeah, I'm just like, that's not gonna, yeah, that's not gonna work.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Reminds me of the term the wranglers in the community.

Have you heard of that?

No, I don't know nothing.

I don't know if they've said Cowboys.

36:36

I've definitely it's either wranglers or Cowboys, but that's that's pretty gendered to like, you know, like wranglers in terms of the people who say like, Oh yeah, I'm totally cool with you doing non monogamy and then slowly try to pull you out kind of like a lasso, like I'm a getcha.

36:52

I'm a keep pulling that and you're just going to come in here and eventually once we've been together long enough, you'll go away with this.

This a little quote, UN quote, non monogamy thing that you're doing or that you like.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's, that's pretty grimy as a concept.

37:09

I totally understand that as like a human behavior, but also like, I don't know, like I've yet to find a person like I deeply love my husband and my friends and my community, but like I've never found someone who is somehow in such an amazing way that I'm like, yes, I will leave you for everything I know and care about in my existence.

37:38

Like what would what play well?

Yeah, I struggled a lot with that at the beginning, I think because of how deep the the one consciousness was for me coming from purity culture and all of that.

Like even once I my, these are my webs and pitfalls and mistakes, which I'm still walking into to be very clear and learning every day, right?

37:59

Humble beginner.

We talked about that.

But my first times in NRE, I really struggled with that because I think I was coming from the frame of what I had been taught around purity culture and my upbringing.

It was very like the one, the one, you know, Hallmark, Disney, all that shit, like really just goes deep into that.

38:18

And so I also am really passionate about somatics and that sort of healing and embodiment and what it means to focus on pleasure in that space.

And so I was always really curious about how my body responded to different partners.

38:34

And I had a, a situation where I was in a long term partnership with somebody in non monogamy and then met someone else and started exploring.

And I didn't really have enough embodied wisdom.

I'm going to say that embodied wisdom with NRE because I had read the books.

38:51

I just like I had read the books.

I knew that word NRE.

And it's funny, like people at the time were like, Nicole, I think you're an NRE.

And I was like, you don't know me.

This is my pleasure.

And I feel it.

And it's so good.

It's like, Oh my God, you know, lessons, lessons, lessons.

39:10

You know, Jessica Fern, she mentors me.

And like we we've talked about like, how long does NRE go for?

You know what I mean?

We talk about one to three years in monogamy.

For sure.

How long does it go for a non monogamy when you don't have proximity?

Yeah.

Oh, for sure.

39:26

A lot longer, guys.

A lot, a lot longer, you know, And so I was just like, so this, yeah.

So this other guy was like kind of on the edge of non monogamy, you know, he's like, maybe I don't know, maybe I don't know, you know.

And so I kind of was thinking, well, maybe we will just do monogamy together because you're kind of indifferent about it.

39:45

Here I am.

My pussy is so wet for you.

This long term relationship, it's not having the same responsiveness anymore.

Clearly my body is saying I belong with this person.

He is kind of iffy on this.

I could just remove all of the things that I'm doing.

Run off, I'll say where I'm at now that feels I can't even fathom it, right.

40:05

I have so many different connections now that it'd be like I'm going to I'm going to stop doing what with my whole commute.

What like it?

It feels unfathomable.

But at the beginning, because of the somatic pieces and the one and his like indifference, it was I was debating it.

40:21

I was debating it.

I could, I could see that.

I know a lot of people who end up are are lovely in community.

Colloquial terms for it are dignitized and there's not exactly, I don't know a short version for it.

40:39

The the question our our we'll ask each other when there's someone is doing that is like does does you're supposed to have gorilla grip?

Like is this like?

Yeah, it's real though.

It's real.

Yeah, no, I've known.

40:55

I mean that also super happens within like hetero universes when it's just like I have a new partner.

What friends?

I've never had friends before and they're.

Like it's.

Like yo dude, we get it.

But like you could respond to the text message saying you're not coming out tonight.

41:10

Like that would be really helpful.

Yep, Yep, I call that the dyadic black hole.

You know, just.

Yes.

Where'd they go?

I don't know.

It just mattered.

But what do you?

Have to talk about you've never you haven't left each other side in two weeks.

41:26

There's no new information like what do you do?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I appreciate that.

The further I've gotten into nominogamy and the more connections that I have, it's not to say that you don't fall into NRA because that's totally, totally possible.

41:42

But the reality is that I have so many loving, stable connections that like I have this, I feel very lucky, Like I have this consistent abundance of love and erotic connection and touch.

And I've realized that that has made me less digmatized or like locked into a pussy, as you were saying, pussy gripped by people because it's it's kind of like just thinking about it like any other drive.

42:09

If you're really hungry and someone presents you a buffet, you are going to try and eat all of it when you're hungry.

Versus if you've come in having eating, having been nourished and well fed, you might take a little tiny bit here there, but you're not going to gorge on it because you're not starving.

And so it's been interesting to see how like further getting into this has kind of eats some of the intensity of the NRA.

42:31

That's not to say it doesn't go away, because the second you hit someone that hits some sort of narrative, whatever narrative up there does it for you, that's still intense.

Yeah, so one of my proto queer experiences is I was at like 6th grade camp and it was like open showers.

42:51

And we person in there was this lovely bear who was, you know, the principal of the other school.

And he's like, Oh well you should shower next to me.

And I was like, yes, I should.

Nothing happened.

But then, you know, X decades later, I'm at the gym and there's a guy who's clearly up to no good and is clearly doesn't know safety around queerness.

43:13

And it's like, do things in the shower.

And I'm like, yes, this is what must happen right now.

And then, of course, you know, he's it's unhinged, unsafe.

And then he starts slightly stalking me.

And I'm like, but did I go back for one more taste?

Of course, yeah.

43:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lessons learned along the way, right?

Yeah.

I feel like that's something I recorded with Avita Loko Sawyer Avita, who wrote the polyamory devotional journal that came out.

43:50

We had a conversation about how the further you get into your spiritual development and maybe we could say psychological development and healing journey, fill in the blank of whatever resonates with you in terms of that framework, the less turned on you are by the world because your standards start to keep raising and raising of what you can expect.

44:11

And it's like, you know, I might see someone who's beautiful and be like, wow, you're a really beautiful, attractive human.

But like, do you have the communication skills?

Can you go for conflict?

Can you do this, you know, and if not, like my pussy doesn't get wet for that shit.

Like I just, it just doesn't, you know?

44:27

Yeah, no, I'm right there with you.

I at this point I say husband and partners have ruined me for 99.9% of the other people.

Like I look through feeling like what?

You want the same experience and you have you have a photo of your foot like get out of here.

44:43

Like no.

No.

You haven't asked me a question in 4 text messages.

Nope, you're not.

Like I can't, I haven't.

Right, right, right.

Yeah, which is great.

I love that, to keep raising the standards in terms of what's possible for the types of connection that we have in our lives.

45:02

I think that's someday when I look back to like at this point currently, I would not connect myself romantically or sexually with somebody who's ambivalent about non monogamy.

I just wouldn't.

Yeah, stay with smokers.

45:18

This is like now I can't do it like.

For you.

But like, sure, yeah, maybe some pickup play.

That's a whole other world.

Whole other world.

Sure, Oh sure.

But like enmeshment and frequency and sharing of just truly like sharing of consciousness.

45:33

Do I want to share my life with you?

Have you hear me back?

And.

Right.

No, because the ambivalence says something.

You know if, if they're trying to connect with me, right?

If that's in their own journey, totally fine.

I do have monogamous friends and people of all different orientations.

We are trying to connect in that way like I cannot.

45:52

No, Nope, Nope, Nope.

Yeah, you know, if, if we're in a play space and it's just like, Oh yeah, you're you're doing this, but we can also have some impact time, whatever.

Cool.

Totally, totally, totally.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

46:08

I feel like that's been one of the biggest things that I'm always in terms of grains of sand that I'm looking for is the the different sort of pairings that are often in the unconscious.

Again, this is something I teach about my sexuality groups where it's like, how do we, OK, you know, the relationship anarchy escalator, the relationship escalator, right?

46:30

So I often talk about the intimacy escalator, right?

If we have it in terms of, you know, attraction, touching, kissing, oral penetration, like, OK, fuck that.

How do we just like burn that, right?

Burn it.

I mean, if you want to walk it that if you want to walk it, great.

46:46

But the the metaphor is the escalator like it takes you there without you even consciously thinking about it.

So at least removing the escalator will keep the stairs if you like it, you know, but the ability to have more freedom, the freedom to be able to choose and be creative just as much in our relationships, where if you walk up the the relationship stairs, you know, and it feels good to keep going towards that path.

47:08

There's nothing wrong.

But are you thinking about it or are you just unconsciously moving towards it?

And I feel very similar about, you know, we have the relationship anarchy smorgasbord, sex in the same way and intimacy in the same way, right?

47:23

Like you can want to peg someone that you don't want to kiss.

Oh, absolutely.

Right.

Like my younger self is like, no, no, like what?

Like how would I do that thing if I didn't first kiss them?

You know, like.

Yeah, that that totally makes sense in huh.

47:43

I like, I like that freezing.

I think that does a lot of the heavy lifting.

And it's also I'm thinking about in my universe, like the I totally respect the Super like glory hole scene where it's like, OK, there is nothing totally cool.

48:04

I'm a little bit of a Demi human.

So like I have to at least think there's something cool about you.

So like, I hear you.

But also the even within that I'm like, Oh yeah, there are people who I'm like, Oh yeah, I would, you know, we could totally trade hand jobs.

48:22

But like you are not coming over for, for dinner.

Like that's not, that's not a possibility.

Yeah, absolutely.

Which is things that my younger self could not have even fathomed.

Yeah, I don't think that was even quite a construction in a positive way in my growing up.

48:45

Like it could exist in like the really gross.

Like I don't like them, but I will use them for sex.

But not in a like, Oh yeah, we can do this activity, but we don't have to do these other activities.

Right.

We can.

We can Lego it, right?

49:00

Yeah, Lego, it is a great metaphor for this.

Absolutely right.

You can truly build and you don't have to use the manual of the, you can use the Lego manual.

Right.

There's a lot but, and so, yeah, usually that's where I talk about the blank canvas, right?

49:18

If most of the world and what we think about with sexuality and relationships is a paint by numbers, stepping into the blank canvas or the no manual Lego kit can be deeply overwhelming because it's like, well, what do I do?

It's the the artist block.

49:34

You know, that moment where you're there with the the paintbrush and you're like, well, look, well, what am I?

Well, OK, I get the whole page.

Got it.

Like, and I think that's a lot of what people come into.

I'm sure you see it in your client work and other sorts of situations where they're just like well what am I doing?

49:50

Where am I going?

Will I have people who will love me when I'm dying or am I going to be alone because I chose non monogamy?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, that's an interesting.

I was going through the like existential fear of of no rule kind of thing where like the only thing that keeps you from the edge of the building is yourself.

50:12

But interesting to tie it with sort of the, like, end stage, if like so much of Western culture, is the idea of hiding death.

And then if you're around death, like, will I be alone if I don't have an eternal one to be there with me?

50:31

Yeah, let's slow down to talk about that for a second, OK?

Highly dangerous to just do a dyadic black hole.

Like, just highly dangerous.

You know, my mom, she's Mormon.

We love her.

She's mom and it's a Jenny and we're in a good place.

50:49

You know, we weren't originally when I came out as queer and somehow polyamory was easier than queerness.

But maybe because of Mormonism, that makes sense.

Right, Right, right.

Right.

So she's always like, well, on the call, you know, you, you really should have kids and, you know, have that because you know what's going to happen when you get older and you need to have that person.

51:10

And, you know, my other partner that I love deeply, his father passed away from cancer two years ago, and it was deeply painful.

His mom was really in, you know, what you see in terms of a typical heteronormative, monogamous marriage.

51:26

And she lost her foundation, you know, and so we're always talking about how like just even when you are really committed to one person, that doesn't give you the security that you you might think we we no moment is promised to us, right?

You know, I can't promise I'll be here when this gets edited.

51:44

You know what I mean?

I'm just here right now.

And when we really put so many resources into one person and we don't know what's going to happen, that can often lead to like complete isolation.

When things like that do happen of cancer or death or the unpredictable things of being a human being versus I'm actually going to connect with five different lovers.

52:07

That's a.

That's a better ratio.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What what are we doing, folks?

What are we?

I mean, and, and of course that that doesn't have to be even sexual connections, right?

This is where I like the relationship anarchy frame.

It's like, build deep connections with multiple people, regardless of who you're fucking, and you're going to be OK, you know?

52:27

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That makes me think about there might be apocryphal.

I think they're real studies about like how if a wife died before her husband, like the odds that he would pass away within the next few years was very high.

52:42

Yeah, yeah.

It's about purpose.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right.

It's about purpose and direction and why you're alive and having that.

I don't want to bring this both down.

I'm also I don't know.

It's curious thought because also the idea of if your purpose and connection is for only self or other or one other as opposed to community.

53:07

Like what does that mean about how you navigate the universe and what you want?

In the world.

Welcome to a very on brand discussion for modern anarchy.

Like this is that's that like you're like, well, I don't want to take us down.

I'm like, actually, that's very odd.

Brand like this is in terms of how it like, if I'm hearing you correctly, the question is how does focusing on a dyad impact other areas of your life and how you show up and your ethics of the way that you move through the world?

53:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's the big problem, right?

Yeah.

Like that's no, absolutely.

That's actually like the problem of why I I talk every time.

Got it.

Interesting.

Sorry, I clearly miss the forest from the trees now that I'm here.

53:51

Yeah, yeah, man, that's that's that's actually the whole thing.

You know, it depends.

It depends on how you know, There's a lot of ways to bring people into this conversation.

I love talking about sex.

I love talking about polyamory and non monogamy.

54:07

And at the end of the day, my biggest goals in life are to work to end rape culture and to invite the world to recognize that we all have multiple relationships.

Yeah, oh, 100%.

It's just that when I said that, like everybody, you already have them.

54:26

Yeah, no, a million, a million percent.

I have some more vanilla normie friends who become very quiet when I share stuff about the kinkier or polycybin.

Which is fine, they're not there, right?

Yeah, it's a cultural difference.

54:43

It's it's a very big cultural difference.

But then trying to explain the idea of like platonic polycule, it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

We're just, it's really good friends.

Like they don't want to share genital time.

It's cool you also have these relationships.

55:00

Right, right, absolutely.

And what if we called that love, folks?

What if we called that love and the, the scary word relationship.

Not scary for me.

And I dear listeners that are tuning in, I don't think they're afraid either.

Let me tell you there, the people that are in this this podcast LAN are like, Oh yeah, relationships.

55:18

I've got many, right, But I, I know so many people in in the mainstream culture.

It's like, oh, I don't, I don't want to say we're in a relationship because that's like too much or something, you know, like there's this, it's almost this weight to that word that means so much.

55:34

But you know, even coming from the therapeutic lens, it's like you have a relationship with your client.

And we know that the relationship, the rapport is actually, you know, I know you know this, but their listener like way beyond any sort of framework of whether you do CBT or DBT or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah type of therapy.

55:54

The biggest thing that we see in terms of making change is actually the relationship that you have with your client, what we call rapport, right?

And so it's like even from that lens, you just start to say, yeah, I have a relationship with this client, this client, this client, all this.

And it brings so much more of that framework to how we all have multiple relationships that I think the rest of the world often is kind of afraid to use that big capital R word.

56:19

Yeah, I also think about like the the overlays with patriarchy and the control systems that like colonial capitalism has and.

Now.

We're talking to sexuality.

And so like, if you're in a relationship with that with a person, like, what rules and what confinement does that mean for you and what power dynamics?

56:43

And even with my partners over younger, like we had like a very long conversation of like, we both want to say that we love each other but are afraid the other person will interpret it as like, giant calligraphy.

56:59

Oh yeah.

Yeah, I hear what you're saying.

Not not that.

But right, right, right.

Well, and then this is how we have 6 hour conversations.

We're like, well, what does I love you mean to you?

It means da da, da, da you really.

And I love those those conversations.

57:16

I love them much harder when it gets into conflict.

And we still have the same level of like, you know, like mini making let's slow down to every single word.

You know, it's like joyful in the I love you.

And when we get to the other side, it's like, let's actually just go for a walk.

57:33

We're just going to go for a walk and be back in our bodies and touch some grass and then come back.

Yes.

Like we can't have this conversation right now.

It's going to go nowhere.

Everyone's going to end up crying.

Or we could just take a nap or go outside.

57:50

That's and everything will be like, oh, I don't know what my brain was doing 30 minutes ago.

Clearly, everything's fine.

One of my supervisors had recommended that if you and someone that you're connecting with cannot solve the quote, UN quote situation, problem, whatever it is within 15 minutes to pause and then decide on a time of which you are going to readdress that situation.

58:16

And I'll tell you when I get activated.

I don't like that advice.

One of my partners straight up give it back to me.

He's like, Nicole, I think we should listen to your supervisor and practice this.

I was like absolutely not, this needs to be solved right now.

Like right now.

This is so important like.

I'm sure there is no like I hate you for using my own words against me that I have the most.

58:36

I know, I know.

I hate that.

I do hate that.

I do hate.

That happens often.

You know where they're like, hey, Nicole.

Hey, Nicole, you teach about pleasure.

Don't get burnt out on teaching about pleasure.

And you're just like, oh.

Fuck yeah.

Yeah, yeah, don't, don't hit me with my own advice.

58:53

Let me just be messy and human, OK?

Truly, Truly.

Yeah.

But I think it's the beauty of those conversations that I think is like such at the heart of our communities, right.

Which is what do these words mean to you and what do we want to Co create together rather than assuming?

59:12

And I think that deeply plays into the NRE conversation that we're talking about of how heavy that can be.

You know, just the amount of fantasies which I'm an I'm an artist like this is this is essential.

Like I'm a writer, I'm a creative, like my fantasy capacities.

59:28

I'm not reading fantasy books because of my English degree, but like my fantasy capacities, you know, like are so, so, so big that then when you meet someone, you can start to be like, well, we could do this, We could do that.

We could do this even in a Poly landscape, not a monogamous one, but like we could go here, we could do this.

59:46

We could have the kitchen table trip where we all travel together and do this, you know, and you have to really take a step back to recognize like how far you are.

You are mind tripping before you've even gotten there, even gotten there, you know?

Yeah, when your brain likes to run away with you and automatically solves and creates all the things you're just like.

1:00:11

So it was like race cycle at work for me and my brain was upset about potentially not getting the raise cycle, but I'm like, I'm fighting over a potentially 1/2 percent raise because that will clearly change.

My life, your whole life, your whole.

1:00:28

Life.

That extra $500 a year will change my whole life.

Everything right?

It's the amount of things that we can spend thinking about and just like truly going into the future in that way.

I was, every time I say this and think about what I was doing is kind of wild.

1:00:48

I was first coming into NA monogamy while writing my dissertation on relationship anarchy and studying psychedelic assisted psychotherapy.

I know every time I think about that, I'm like, oh, how did I make it out?

I don't.

I think the mushrooms helped.

1:01:04

They did.

Oh, Oh my God.

Yes, yes, yes, they did.

OK, but it did make it did make jealousy more intense.

Some of those psychedelics are stimulants and we think, wow, they're going to open up your heart.

But then you watch your partner touch the hands of another woman, who by the way, was also my partner.

1:01:24

So I was thinking like totally sick.

Like I've.

Let's go.

Wrong, wrong.

Stimulant really, really intensified the chest palpitations that were going through my body.

Yeah.

1:01:39

So.

So you live and you learn.

Live and you learn.

And we had much more conversations around what not to do on psychedelics, like AKA new novel types of connection and play without pretty explicit, clear communication.

1:01:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I found that in the mix and matching of like chemicals and drugs kind of land where it's just like, oh, you're a candy flipping, you know, maybe A and then B, maybe not the.

The open way.

Yeah.

And what I'm.

You know.

Yeah, exactly.

1:02:13

In my sexuality program, we have a module all about consent as a living practice.

And part of what I talk about in there, it comes way back from my conversation with Britta Love on the show.

Dear listener, many years ago, you could go back and listen.

And we talked about Britta Love is also a psychedelic activist in the spaces of sexuality and queerness and so many other things.

1:02:35

And we'd had a conversation about what it looks like to have consent on psychedelic and in sexual experiences.

And you know, particularly we, there's a lot of that framework in the world of you cannot say yes and have full consent while on drugs.

1:02:51

But the reality is that we have to have a much more deeper, nuanced conversation about the fact that many of us are on drug.

Like I drank caffeine this morning with my black tea.

I'm you're seeing me drugged right now, right?

Or at the time I was on SSRI's, a mind altering Subs.

1:03:08

You know, there's just so much more here than the simplicities of what we got in terms of very simple education around sexuality and consent.

And So what we were talking about was how to look at it as a multi variable factor, right?

In terms of what is this drug?

1:03:24

What is the dose?

Are we combining things with other things?

What is the dose there?

OK, What is the place that we're in?

What is the type of sex that we're having?

How many people are these new people?

And rather than being like consensus A or B.

1:03:40

And I think most people in this space know it's not that clear, but what are the multi variable factors here that are happening?

I've worked with clients who are like, oh, you know, we were thinking our first time of playing with other couples, maybe we could do it on Molly or other sorts of things.

And I'm like, yeah, exactly.

1:03:56

I'm like, hey, man, I'm not God.

I'm not going to tell you what to do with your life, but I will tell you, you are interacting with multiple factors.

This is your first time having sex on Molly with another couple.

This is your first time having play with another couple.

This is the first time with this couple specifically.

And it's not just four people.

1:04:13

We have 6 different relationships going on is everyone's connect.

I'm not God here, but I'm gonna tell you that's a complex math equation.

The higher you get in terms of frequency of things that you're doing and what you're doing for your life, you know, I've tried it, but like, you know, learn from my mistakes, not, not.

1:04:36

Do as I say, not as I do exactly.

Exactly.

Exactly.

No one.

No one could have told me otherwise.

You know what I mean?

No.

A million.

Percent.

That's three million percent, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, I, previous versions of me have done a good amount of chemicals in my life.

1:04:54

I was definitely stoned for a few years straight.

I've done a bunch of mushrooms.

Acid.

I thought the last thing I think was acid, but I found it was very boring.

But I had a friend when I was a teenager who was just like what if I get stoned for the first time and we wander around the met?

1:05:10

I'm like the met is like 8 hours of walking.

Like.

You want to be stoned and have to walk and deal with hundreds of thousands of people?

That sounds terrible.

Well, is it a sativa or an indica?

1:05:26

I don't know.

I might be there for the sativa.

This is the This is the ancient days when you're.

Getting no.

You said no and you're like, what is this?

Oh, it's sprayed in Hairspray there.

You know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's the first I feel very lucky to be in Illinois where it's legal and you can actually go and like you can be specific enough to be like, hey, I actually want less THC content.

1:05:48

Like I actually want less.

Can we actually amplify the CBT?

Like can we do something like a 2 to 1?

I don't know, like, you know, I feel very lucky to be in a space where it's like legal in that way.

And I can actually have that level of conversation about what you're taking in.

I mean, that's it changes the game in terms of what you consent to and your wisdom of what you consent to and your body and what you're doing.

1:06:09

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

No, so much as like, harm reduction and like working with like, the hotlines, like brought in like orgs like Dance Safe into like people we recommend.

Yeah.

And through Center for Positive Sexuality, we've had sort of meetings with them about sexuality and knowledge and chemicals and consent, Yeah, and all that kind of stuff.

1:06:29

Totally, totally gay culture poppers like it's Venus.

Deep, deep history of substance use and gay culture for sure too.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's so yeah, migraine is not going on tangents about other sci-fi authors that were also just like award winners but were sort of a race because they were queer and of color in the 70s.

1:06:54

But yeah, sorry, side tangent.

No, I mean it's all I mean again, is it a side tangent?

OK, so.

Dare dare I say they've They've been erased for a reason.

Hella political statement to say here.

1:07:09

Yes, OK, so very cool. sci-fi author Samuel R Delaney, one of my favorites, one multiple Nebula, Hugo, blah blah blah blah blah.

Every award you can imagine.

Person of color and queer and like, no one's ever heard of him.

1:07:27

It's the same way that like, Ursula K Le Guin have written like, amazing sci-fi things like The Dispossessed, right?

And everyone's just like this.

What book is that?

I'm like the one she won 14 awards for.

Me.

Yeah.

Yeah, I do have that on my shelf.

1:07:44

I do.

I have not finished it.

See.

There it is.

When it was gifted to me, it was gifted.

They're like Nicole, you're an anarchist Here.

Look.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

On the moon, Anarchist on the moon.

Let's go.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Exactly.

But Delaney wrote an autobiography where he talks about going to essentially what, oh, what was what's the pier in New York City that was like everyone had gay sex in?

1:08:13

It's like pure 21 or something.

Like some someone in the audience is now screaming at their heart saying that it's pure Boo Boo Boo.

I I fail trivia night every time so this is not I'm like, got it.

So husband keeps proper nouns in his brain for me.

They don't live in my brain, so I will be.

1:08:32

Like.

Yeah, I'll be like husband who's blah, blah blah, and he'll instantly have it and I'm like thank you, that's great.

I don't know that name anymore.

We.

Worked together.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But he was sort of substance user and he was a sex worker and he was having like super Poly gay sex.

1:08:52

And this is written up in the 70s.

Other fun Tibet for listeners is he wrote an ethnography called Times Square Red, Times Square Blue because he used to go to the adult film theaters in Times Square and talks about the communities that were there and then have Giuliani clean them up and erased like all the safety that was in Times Square.

1:09:14

Oh no.

So just other fun, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, that's all really.

I, I find this all to be very relevant, right?

The fact that these voices get really cast aside, put under, not highlighted, and to hold space for that and the things that are coming to your mind.

1:09:31

Because I know so many of my clients come to me and they, there's so much shame about any of this, so much shame about any of this.

And part of the reason why is that we don't have enough models, particularly of diverse intersecting identities, right, that you're speaking to and we don't have enough models.

1:09:51

So you feel like you're this only person that's trying to do this radical thing, when in reality, we've had many people in our movement who have existed and who have done things maybe in more covert ways under pseudonyms, other sorts of things to maintain safety through different times in our history.

1:10:07

And or the, you know, you know, the even going all the way back, like I was talking about wanting to get more into like the women's sacred sexuality text.

A lot of that stuff was burned in different moments and removed, right.

And so we just don't have the images of all of it.

And we know that as relational beings, we need those images to be able to imagine for our own life in America.

1:10:28

We still haven't had a woman precedent.

We still don't have any women on the fucking money that we use in our country.

Yeah, yeah, it's all crazy.

Impacts us every single day.

That impacts what we think we can be like, yeah.

Yup, Yup, Yup.

1:10:46

The also makes me think of Oh my gosh, the the gorilla.

I think they call themselves Gorilla Girls.

That sounds not quite right, but so who wrote Fault in Our Stars?

Something green.

1:11:02

Yes.

John Green from Indianapolis.

Yeah.

Yeah.

OK.

Trivia.

Trivia.

One point for me.

Got it.

His wife is an artist and had this really cool YouTube channels, but she was part of this group that would go and do demonstrations with an art museums where something like, you know, only like a 5% of the artists work displayed was made by women, but virtually 98% of the nudes were women.

1:11:27

So what does that mean about what bodies are consumable and whose work can be displayed and is important as you die and fall off?

You know, I was like, the listeners can't see me.

I'm just like leaning over.

I'm like, exactly.

Exactly.

1:11:44

Well, that's why I say this isn't a tangent.

None of this is a tangent.

You know, whether you were saying earlier about what does it mean when we go into dyadic spaces and how does that impact the ways that we move through the world?

Yeah.

We start capitalizing, having to buy everything for our own individual family, which is very intentional.

1:12:01

We, the systems, love how much they can market to us of hey, you need this in your individual home because you shouldn't have any friends that you're going to share this fancy appliance with because you need this all for yourself, right?

Or all these other things that you're speaking to of representation in women or art or people of color, queer people, all the intersecting different identities like this is crucial to talk about.

1:12:24

And these are political conversations that need to be held because all of this impacts our ability to even tap into pleasure and create other images, you know, of what's possible.

I feel like I hope people can continue to find other artists, find other conversations and like follow some of the resources that you're throwing in here because it really expands your creativity of what you can dream of.

1:12:46

And we need people in the here and the now to keep treating even bigger.

And what we currently have, like I want bigger scenes of consensual things, bigger scenes of like what is possible in a lifetime for our communities and what we can do when we really clean up the house from all the sand and put it back on somewhere else, you know?

1:13:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I love all this.

So in that and like the Dreaming, like a lot of the stuff, but recently that's been very inspiring is there is a anarcho YouTube person who goes by aneurysm.

He is from one of the Caribbean islands.

1:13:26

I apologize I do not remember which one, but it's very like eco punk, like conversations about libraries of things like deconstructing the idea of barter before there's money like it's.

Very like.

What can the future look like if we've removed the ideas in the past?

1:13:44

Looks very cool.

Yeah, that goes back to the saying another world as possible.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, there, there.

I don't like the series, but in the dark, the Dark Tower, one that refrains as there are worlds other than this, you know, it's just like the dimension that I've made with the people I care about is real different than dominant culture.

1:14:09

And having to go back there periodically, it's just like, oh, oh, this is what I was afraid I was leaving behind.

That's cool.

I'll get back to the thicket.

Hey, it's scary at 1st to get out of that.

It's scary at 1st to get out because you're like, will I be loved?

Am I going to be exiled?

1:14:24

What is going on?

Will I have people?

And it is a slow walk towards, you know, community building and you you got there.

And then you're like, wow, I could never go back to what was.

You can't snuggle while you watch a movie.

1:14:40

Why can't we?

It's just not What?

Oh, no, That would be cheating.

Oh, no.

I I Oh God.

I don't know what's happening.

This.

Year right?

I can't express I can't express to my same sex friends that I deeply care about them and love them even though we're not like smooching like that will cause violence to me.

1:14:59

Like no, no, no, no, I will not hang out with those boys.

Like that's not, that's not what I need.

I know, I know.

I know.

Yeah.

So the other world is possible.

And I think one of the biggest things I hope we can also remember is that there was another world too.

1:15:14

Like, not even just the future, but like, straight up going into history.

The I, I just.

I know I'm supposed to be soft and gentle and nice and supportive of people's journeys and learning growth.

You know what I mean?

Like I know I remember I remember being at being at a table, which this was with the partner that was like kind of iffy on the whole thing.

1:15:35

So it makes sense his world of people would also have this.

But there was someone like APHD in biology and I was talking about my doctor and what I did and his question was, well, does non monogamy ever even work?

And I just like took the deepest.

I was just like, I was like.

1:15:51

Monogamy works 100% of the time.

There's never been a breakup or divorce.

Lol, right.

And I just like very calmly, I just very calmly was like, you know, right now there are cultures around the world that actively practice this and have for many centuries.

1:16:09

And so that question is actually a little problematic.

Like if we take more of cultural humility to the fact that there are other cultures beyond just our white Western lens that has colonized a lot of the world, let's be very clear.

But like they're actively now and have been indigenous other cultures that do not practice anything like what we do and using the word even non monogamy would be an inappropriate description of what they're doing because that's applying our white western bullshit lens.

1:16:38

Like I just like that question kills me when someone's like doesn't even work.

I'm like shut the fuck.

I know.

So I know.

No, no, I know.

But I'm like nice therapist.

I'm like, OK, it's OK, but I wasn't on the clock for that moment, you know what I mean?

Like.

That's the most important part.

It's also sometimes you just have to read a person to fill and that's just what has to happen and you know, it's cool.

1:16:59

I'm just like in the journey, I don't know if I can slow down that much.

I'm just but no, it's important to be very clearly.

I can just turn and just very clear.

Like historically, yes, and currently yes, like I appreciate your question.

Here's here's sex Ed Dawn a couple other books like Yep, educate yourself, please educate yourself, please, please, it's.

1:17:18

A little bit, you know, because all of those convents and nunneries where everyone was just really good friends, you know, there was never.

Anything right, right, right.

Well, we'll get we'll get this now that we're rantsing all get this.

1:17:34

I just had another client who came to me and she had told me that she was looking for a therapist.

She's non monogamous and the current person that she worked with said I just don't think I could work with you.

I have a bias and I don't think that non monogamy could ever be healthy.

So I just don't think that I can work with you.

1:17:50

Oh.

Oh, that's good, Good.

Well, I'm glad that the therapist was honest.

And yeah, that's true like that.

Is true.

Well, that's like for, for the center.

We'll do panels.

1:18:05

And in the past there's been times where it's just like, you know, we go through the thing where it's just like, you know, people with mental health conditions.

Do they engage in in kink?

Absolutely.

Are are, are kinky people mentally ill?

No, it's the same number.

But like people would repeatedly ask like, so who hurt you and which uncle touched you?

1:18:22

And it's just like, it's just like, no, you've said no three times.

We're not going to ignore you.

That's bad.

Yeah, that's really bad on the race that that shows how prevalent it is.

Like when I recorded with Doctor Elizabeth Scheff, she had talked about somewhere like 80% of people have kinky fantasies.

1:18:41

And 1st off, some of the some of the biggest ones are three sobs.

Oh, easy, That's like, well, that's some of the kinkiest stuff a lot of people can imagine and.

Right.

But it doesn't feel that kinky to me.

But that's because the culture that we are now, right?

1:18:57

That's right.

And you know, it's funny.

I love I love Eli.

We're actually working on a project together and she's part of the center and board and all this kind of stuff.

But it's funny because my our vanilla friends think husband and I are the wildest motherfuckers on the planet.

1:19:15

And I'm like, oh, you don't know, like do I do a little edge play?

You don't you don't know the humans.

Like if there's no porcupine clothes going in in me, I'm not suspended in crazy ways and being hit with.

Exactly, exactly, exactly, which comes back to the whole sand thing, right?

1:19:33

Where's the sand and part of the biggest sand that we're finding in our lives, Dear listener, if you forgot the metaphor that we're going through, I'll call you back in.

It's the systems of oppression or the sand, right?

Like it's so context dependent.

We again, we talked about the ankles.

1:19:49

We talked about this like it is, again, context dependent to the culture that you live in.

You're right.

Like compared to some of your friends, you are probably just the vanilla of them.

Like you're the vanilla, right, compared to my Mormon family, Like, holy fucking shit, what are you doing?

1:20:08

You know, like, so it's just always that deeper question, you know?

And I think that's why I like again and again on the podcast I always come back to and why I'm so passionate about doing group work.

Chef's kiss Ma is the fact that the relationship.

Relationships that you surround yourself with create your reality deeply, deeply, deeply, deeply.

1:20:28

And so if you want to feel quote UN quote more normal about these things, surround yourself with people who do these things.

And I, I've worked with many clients who are in rural places and I know that that's also really tough and tricky too.

And so also the Internet.

We live in an age where you can digest so much content, so many books, so many other things to get yourself into that headspace.

1:20:50

Because again, it's the cultures that you live in that end up shaping the fantasies, the desires, all these sorts of things.

And, and removing some of that shame that we feel because it's about the connection with other people who have the same sorts of cravings and capacities and the ability to inspire us.

1:21:06

When you hear about other people's play and the the things that they're crafting in their lives and the fantasies that they're Co creating with their people, it's it's all of that.

Yeah, yeah, I love it.

I That is such an amazing summation of all of it and what the universe is.

1:21:22

I love that.

Yeah, well, it's been such a joy to talk to you.

This feels like a a good point to do our little check in and see if there's anything else that you want to share with the listeners today.

Sure.

So the main thing I'd like to add, well, first of all, this has been amazing.

1:21:41

Thank.

You so much.

Good.

Good, good, good.

I'd like to share that I'd like, I like to do a shameless promotion for the organization.

I'm part of the Center for Positive Sexuality.

We specialize in humanizing and education and in community research for particularly marginalized sexual communities.

1:22:05

So that's like Poly sex workers, kinky people, people with disabilities to engage in sex, people who are aging engage in sex.

We do talks and do panel presentations.

We have a journal that is peer reviewed.

You can find us at positivesexuality.org and our journal is at Journal of Positive sexuality.org and it is all free.

1:22:29

It is it goes from everything from the very chill, like, oh, these are how people are making sexuality in digital spaces all the way to like here's a report of someone who was doing, sounding and combining with Aubignero juice and everything in there.

1:22:46

It's all real cool.

Come, come play.

In our spaces.

We are always looking for humans to volunteer, to help talk, to share our knowledge.

Also, if anyone has a hard tax burden and they want to reduce that, we are happy to talk to you.

Yeah, there you go.

1:23:04

Got to play in the systems we got, so we get the other world.

Right.

We are totally for the redistribution of wealth.

If so, you know, if you have a previous relative who was a Buckface and you want to show them what's up, you can give us a lot of money and you know, kind of mess with them from beyond the grade if that's something that you have access to.

1:23:26

Well, I'm so glad that you're doing that very, very important work.

It's so necessary in this time.

And so I'm really, really grateful that you and all the people in your organization are forwarding this essential research.

So thank you for your work.

Awesome.

Thank you so much.

Yeah, Thank you for giving me and by proxy us the center of the space to, yeah, talk to so many kill humans.

1:23:48

Absolutely, Absolutely.

A very aligned audience is here.

Yeah.

Well, Mike, if it feels good to you, we can transition.

OK, Cool.

So I'll invite you to take another deep breath with me.

And so the last question that I ask every guest on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

1:24:22

I wish that more people knew they are not alone in their quote UN quote weird thoughts.

Odds are most of the people around you have had a similar thought and are just not verbalizing it and you just can't hear their thoughts.

1:24:44

Yeah, yeah, Absolutely.

Absolutely, absolutely.

And there's the nuance of like when do we share thoughts versus hold them and all of that.

And the more we do share those thoughts, the more we can connect, right?

1:25:00

Not always isn't the right time to share those thoughts, right nuance folks.

And also sharing more of those thoughts when right in the right context creates so much more connection.

I know before we even recorded, I was dear listener, I always check in with the guests about their comfort level with sharing about their personal life because that's an important consent conversation before we come on.

1:25:22

And I always have that in the prep before we go.

And we were talking about, you know, therapist world and what it means to share and all these sorts of things, right?

Like I, I do find it deeply political to share about your journey, the things we mess up and not keep this sort of like I'm perfect and here I am being the starter that has it all figured out.

1:25:40

Like known, the more we can share like, Oh my God, the first time I hit jealousy, I was on the floor sobbing, crying and na monogamy, just feeling like I was going to die.

Like like, or whatever messy things that we've done or the cravings, the fantasies, the things, the more we realize our, our shared humanness, the grief that we move through, the suffering and all of those things, the more we can do that.

1:26:02

Especially in a time of AI and all this crazy ass digital shit going on.

The more that we can be more real with each other.

That's the connection that we feel and is invigorating and life giving in that way.

Yeah, absolutely.

And also I think the rise of the idea that a purity culture and the panopticon that comes with social media and AI and all that kind of stuff, it's like everyone's a weirdo.

1:26:29

Come play with the weirdos.

It's.

Way more fun.

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

That's what I always say in my group.

So I'm like, find your people to play with, OK?

Find your people to play with.

I remember one of my friends had done like a kinky scene with a corn cob dildo and a cow suit like I was.

1:26:49

Like nice nice.

They're theater people.

Can you catch your reaction?

Yeah.

Clearly climb at the seat.

Theater people, theater people in the Catholics they've got.

You've combined those two.

Lots of fun play that'd.

Be a real passionate place, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:27:07

But like those are the like if, if that's your scene, there are people who want to do that.

And if not, that's totally cool.

And there's other people that want to do the things you want to do and finding those people.

I got to be a naughty elf that over the holidays that had graffiti on them.