286. Getting Off the Sexuality Escalator - Dr. Nazian
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On today's episode, we have Doctor Nausean join us for a conversation about rewriting your sexual scripts.
Together we talk about.
Giggling during sex, embracing our kinky parts and fine tuning your sexual palette.
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Hello dear listener and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.
I'm so delighted that you were here to learn more about your pleasure and our collective pleasure liberation.
My name is Doctor Nicole, I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, author of the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and the first study on relationship anarchy.
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And I teach students from around the world how to craft pleasurable sex lives and non monogamous relationships.
Dear listener, Oh my goodness.
Put two sex educators in a room.
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Put two sex educators in a room.
OK, Powerful episode with Doctor Nausean because there's just a shared understanding of what it means to build language and how essential language is not for us to just get out of rape culture and dismantle it, Yes, absolutely.
1:43
But for us to also go to that full other side of the liberation and healing spectrum.
And that is pleasure.
And I am so grateful that you were here to learn about it and that you're sharing these episodes with your friends and that you're really expanding your capacity to be with yourself and to be with the other people that are around you.
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And that is such a beautiful thing.
All right, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure and explore all of my free resources, I have a psychedelic jealousy guide, my dissertation on relationship anarchy.
I have a ton of worksheets that you can do with the people that you love, worksheets for your own inner psychology, and so much more at modernanarchypodcast.com.
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And that's in the show notes below as well.
And thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you to my Patreon community.
Thank you for supporting me for the last five years to make this educational content.
I could not be here and looking at video in November without you and your support.
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And thank you for joining me and all of my personal shares that we do in that space.
And with that, dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love and let's tune into today's episode.
3:08
So the first question that I love to ask each guest on the show is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?
Doctor Nas is perfect.
Amazing, amazing.
I'm so excited to have you here.
3:23
I am so excited to be here.
I know we had a conversation on my show and I love your energy and how you show up, so it was such a treat to be invited to be here.
Totally, totally.
And your show is one of the biggest like top sex psychology shows of the many like so an honor to have you so.
3:41
Sweet, are we all doing our work to increasing awareness about this taboo topic?
Totally, absolutely, absolutely.
And a big part of this show.
Is getting to hold space for each guest's personal journey?
I would love to hear about your pleasure liberation journey.
3:59
Where do you start?
What's your upbringing?
Take us all the way back.
It's a very interesting, like life experience I had.
I know you said this going to come out in early fall, right?
But you have more information about how things unfold in Iran?
4:16
Yeah.
But as we're speaking right now, it's like in the midst of the war.
So I grew up in Iran right after Islamic revolution and during Iran Iraq war to a very kind of radical feminist household at the time that the society was like had this kind of like change of values.
4:41
So the patriarchal values, like religious values were like very front and center at schools.
And I was like, grew up with this duality of being in a home that women's values and rights were like very, very focused.
4:57
So it was like, Oh my God.
So I grew up with that duality.
And it's really interesting because my family, like, they were always hoping that we were able to find our voice.
We would be able to internalize what we were hearing in the home.
5:14
But the bigger society, it was like very like had this oppressed view of women.
It's what sexuality is like.
I remember ever since when I was a child, I was in like this high.
So I was going to private high school and they had this religious study.
5:31
And I remember that the religious study teacher said like whenever you shake hand with a man, you will experience this instant attraction.
Like raise my hand, like I think mine is broken.
So was it like immediately was sent to detention?
5:52
All these crazy things that they teach people and like the and it's very different than your reality.
So I moved here when I was 17 for college.
So I went to UCSD and I was like, OK, wonderful.
I'm out of that environment.
6:09
But you don't know how much of these sex negative values you internalize unconsciously.
So I was like, you know, I was having kind of like this kind of code and code liberated life.
I had lots of freedom moving here alone for college, which was beautiful.
6:27
Sex was amazing.
I was enjoying this freedom of the opportunity to be in this environment that's not as oppressed.
But what was interesting to me is like I although I was in Graduate School for psychology, I did not know the field of sex therapy exists, right?
6:46
I was thinking about so when there's a sexual issues, the couples issues or like I did not know like the extent of like there is a field specific for sex.
So my own journey was that I was in a long term partnership with someone that wonderful person.
7:04
We were engaged and he was just such a beautiful person, but the attraction, the sexual attraction was non existent in a way, right?
Everyone was they were telling me like, you know, it's overrated.
And I was like, I had this internal script that like, you know, sex is not the most important thing in the long term relationship.
7:26
You know, I can cultivate it all sorts of things.
And initially it was when things are novel, you can kind of in a way override your body.
So it's like, OK, it can be workable.
Couple years into it, like I start having extreme pain with penetration.
7:45
No, it was like wild to me because I had high desire.
But like my uni was saying that no, nothing is going in.
Yeah.
It was like horrible.
It was like if someone was putting a blade inside me whenever we had penetration And like, and I know many women with painful intercourse and sex, they have this experiences that I was going to a gynecologist.
8:10
The person said, oh, just have a couple glasses of wine.
It's like that's gonna resolve the issue.
It's just like wild to me.
I mean, I don't think that like you don't want to develop substance dependency and like if you want to numb yourself or sex because the opposite of sexuality people, we know that you want to be embodied.
8:35
Right.
The solution is not like just like check out.
Yeah, check out.
So I tried like different gynecologist, different places.
And then I start going to couples therapy.
At this point I was in Graduate School in psychology, so went to couples therapy.
8:50
The issue was nothing related to our relationship was specifically sex.
We got really good into like got better in the communication, but like there's like we're not having any sex.
And I know that's the experience that many people have, right?
That they think only if, if our relationship is good, maybe our sex life can get better.
9:10
But sometimes it's not necessarily related.
It wasn't until I started going to a sex therapist that I was like able to kind of like look into the scripts I had looking into my values.
And it helped me to get out of that relationship.
9:28
And it's wild to me that I know many people with painful sexual experiences, they often need to go to physical therapy.
Sometimes the issues are physical but for me as soon as we ended the relationship my issue completely disappeared.
It's like wild to me.
9:46
I was like okay.
I remember specifically a month after I had sex with this person I was thinking it's a hookup experience which turned out to be my now husband.
Amazing and it was like, Oh my God, there's no pain and how is it possible?
10:03
Because at that point I was like, OK, I'm broken.
This is going to be something like I have to manage.
It's, it's very interesting to me that how our brain and our body has this wisdom, right, that we're trying to muscle through these experiences in the hostile culture to make things happen.
10:21
When in reality, sometimes if we change the context, it can be very the issue can get resolved.
And I'm not saying that's the case for every single person.
Like you can be in a loving relationship and has nothing to do with your partner's partner's attraction or what's happening.
10:38
You might experience pain because of hormonal changes.
There could have been so many things, but that wasn't my experience, which is like how I, I was like, I want to be a sex therapist.
I want to do what my sex therapist did for to me.
So here we are.
And here you are.
10:54
Amazing.
Yeah, there's so much to unpack in that.
So much to unpack.
When you were with.
Your sex therapist at the beginning, you said you started to realize different things that were at play.
What were some of those things that were coming online?
11:10
Because you mentioned the unconscious and I, I just got out of my sexuality group that I run and we were talking about the unconscious power dynamics that we internalize and how that impacts our desire.
So this is right on topic.
What were some of the things that you started to notice in your life?
11:27
What was very interesting for me is I did not have conscious awareness, but I had this shame around like my wild side, right?
Always all throughout my life that that part needs to be tamed or controlled and that that led me to not listen to myself, right?
11:47
I wasn't connected to my erotic heart and erotic soul in a way.
And that that was showing God.
I was like, OK, this is what it takes to have good sexual experiences.
Like, you know how we hear and lots of different literature, like 5 steps.
Yeah, right.
Orgasm, right?
12:03
Like that's not how it works.
That's not how this show works, right?
I was trying to do 5 steps my painful intercourse situation that did not get resolved.
Totally.
Yeah, totally.
And then I have, you know, I can deeply resonate with all the people who are like, yeah, I started listening to podcasts at 2.5 speed to try and just download all the information, information and information, right, to try and be able to solve it.
12:29
But there's so much more going on here.
I, that's where I, you know, when I was on your show, we talked about psychedelic sex and the context of set and setting.
And I love bringing that into our erotic desire of what's the set and setting that's going on.
Because often so many of us do blame ourself and say, it's all just me.
12:47
That's all of what's going on with my body for getting the setting of who you're connecting with, the world, the cultural messages, all that sort of stuff that is at play here.
And it's much more nuanced in that way.
Absolutely.
And kind of like what makes sex exciting for many people is that that erotic energy, right?
13:08
You mentioned that it's connected to the setting, to the context, to our unconscious mind.
And you can have like the right five steps, right, the perfect five steps for having good sex and would have a mediocre to bad experience.
13:25
So I think that's why you said, like in our culture, we are misguided in a way, right?
We're thinking about good sex is about what you do, right?
It's not about how you show up.
And in my experience, like the best erotic experience at least I had, it was more about how I showed up in that context.
13:47
Right, right.
The ability to play.
And so many of the boxes that were in are scripts of what it means to show up in a sexual dynamic, the sexuality escalator, you know, of penetration and orgasm at the top.
Right, like these very strict ways.
14:04
Because we don't have access to education, because we don't have good models of what this can look like, because it's so privatized, we're really just locked in these scripts again, on such an unconscious level.
I know when I was first going into grad school, I was very, you know, against the idea of the unconscious, You know, because I was like, I don't want to be controlled by like some puppet strings.
14:26
And it's a very humbling journey to realize, well, the unconscious is definitely a thing.
And you can't really.
Find it.
And it's shaped by the culture we live in, right?
Like that's really what's happening is the cultural impacts that are deeply internalized with us of what's quote UN quote normal for acceptance and survival, which we all need.
14:47
So we're constantly playing that game of what's OK within the culture that I'm in.
Absolutely.
And what what is the role I'm allowed to show up even for myself and I've noticed for clients that are more open minded, right, like there are always as you mentioned, the scripts a part of it formed with like growing up with limited education.
15:08
We have majority of people they get education from porn, which is nothing wrong with porn, but it's not education right.
You think about you have to show up in that way in the bedroom and like you have to always show up that way.
That can be very committing, and when you're not feeling that way right, it can feel very performative.
15:32
Absolutely.
And I think if I tuned into my younger self and said, hey, are you performing scripts, I would have been like, no, obviously not where I'm at now, having much more of a creative space of what's possible, knowing that it will get more creative each year.
15:47
I exist.
Woo Hoo.
But when I look back, I'm like, oh God, I definitely was performing many scripts of what it means to be a good partner, particularly a good woman.
Fill in the blank there and didn't even realize how much more play and capacity was possible in my connections.
16:06
Absolutely.
And I, I can see that with changing the script can be very humbling.
I have clients that they talk about like they like, you know, they haven't experienced orgasms and they think orgasms for years.
And we said like, OK, let's focus on really tuning in.
16:21
And I often hear from them, but like if my, if I'm not making the moaning sound, I'm not like really showing excited.
Like I don't want to hurt my partner.
So we kind of get like embedded in the script and we continue to do things that they're not serving us.
16:37
And that can kind of like lead the erotic context, kind of lead it to be stagnated and kind of like get stuck without even the other partner knowing what's happening.
Totally, totally.
It reminds me when I was in grad school studying feminist psychology, they would talk about the relational paradox, which I'm sure you're familiar with.
16:58
And for the listener who's tuning in, it's the reality that in all of our relationships, we're sitting with the relational paradox, which is the reality that there are parts of ourselves that could possibly, if we bring them forward with our authentic self, it could cause disconnection from the person across from you.
17:17
And so we wonder, should I bring this in and face the possible disconnection, what's hit, which hits into all of our evolutionary fears of being cast out, forgotten, and is deeply scary?
Or do I hold it back, not tell this person about what I'm wanting or craving or feeling, but in doing so, I disconnect to myself, right?
17:41
And so you're on that.
Do I fear disconnection with other or with myself?
And I think that comes so much into our sex life here of like, yeah, the moaning, the faking the orgasm.
If I bring my authentic moment here, which means, hey, dude, you didn't get me off, you know, like, will I face their ego fallibility and their inability to hold that?
18:01
Or do I just hold that back and then I fake and lose connection with me and my authentic experience, and we're all kind of in that dance of having to play with that friction?
Absolutely and and and just such a beautiful view kind of like that context to have and I also see it in my penis owner client, right.
18:23
It's interesting that some Farsi speaking bilingual clinicians.
I had this video that I talked about pegging.
It was in Farsi and it got like 20 million views, which is yes, like everyone looks so much like, OK, if you don't like it, why is it got so many?
18:44
Exactly hello.
And I got so many actually interesting, like first time my entire career got clients from social media.
And many of these were men coming in say like, I'm very interested, but my partner has no clue.
19:00
And I'm actually very disconnected from my partner because I, I just don't allow myself to show up with experiences I want, like being more in a submissive role.
And not necessarily everyone who does like picking like they like the submissive role, but they're talking about, I don't know what does that mean to my masculinity, to my relationship.
19:22
So I'm hiding away that part of me and that leads me to not be excited about sex because it kind of lead me to be more in my own erotic experience and not being connected.
So these scripts I can, I wonder it's not serving, I would say not serving majority of people unless you're in this very traditional like can't like specific role that you're playing.
19:46
And I feel it can be very limiting.
And even then, why only paint with one color?
Like we got the whole look at the whole thing, you know, like the whole thing and then some and the mixing colors, you know.
And so, yeah, I, I, I think there's so much suffering around this topic specifically.
20:04
And it is so cultural, right, in terms of what is the norm.
And when we look at, you know, cross cultural research, we can see how vastly.
The culture that you exist in shapes your desires just deeply fundamentally.
20:21
I wish I could have handed my younger self that wisdom to like see outside of what I was in, to recognize how much the culture is influencing me on desires that I feel like are quote, quote innate.
And I want to honor that.
The innate feeling that we do feel in cravings and desires.
20:39
But also writing that edge of curiosity of how much is this the systems?
How much is this the culture that I've really grown up in?
Absolutely.
And you brought up such an important point, Dr. Nicole, the curiosity.
Yeah, that is the secret sauce for many people even in long term relationship, why we lose kind of desire.
21:01
That's so common for people to lose desire because we think we know exactly what partner wants or what what the sex gonna be look like.
And we're not approaching it with curiosity and novelty often times is not there for people.
So that that can help kind of lead people to feel disconnected and not want to have a sex that they know exactly how it unfolds and they're just not into in their bodies.
21:27
Absolutely, absolutely.
As human beings, we love schemas and things that we can predict, right?
In terms of the cognitive load that we have, it's much easier to go through the world saying, oh, I know what's going to happen here.
I know what that sex will look like.
I know what my partner is going to do because it lowers the amount of cognitive effort you have to think about these things.
21:48
But like you're saying, then in return, you're not as turned on or erotic because you're not really in that space of possibility and curiosity.
And so I feel like that's one of the biggest things for couples who are struggling with long term desires.
How can you get curious about the person before you, right?
22:06
How can you hold the reality that this is another human being that even if you spent every waking hour of your life trying to understand, you still could not because they are a whole universe in their own psyche and their brain.
Like when I sit with that, I, I feel such an erotic charge because there's like a deep reverence for the sacredness of who this person is as completely separate from me.
22:30
And often in long term relationships we start to really merge to such a degree that we kind of forget the separateness of that that human.
Absolutely.
You know, even in all, I would say in all relationships that engagement and curiosity is so important.
22:46
I was like looking at the different therapeutic modes and kind of models for outcome and the research was showing that regardless of what kind of evidence based thing you're using, the level of the person, the clients engagement, right, that creates the positive outcome, right?
23:05
Even in the kind of therapeutic relationship, if you're showing up curious and engage, you will see the result like and it's the same with the erotic bedroom and like if you are approaching it with curiosity, just something you can cultivate, right?
That like with practices with external help with the conversation with your partner that can help you to feel alive.
23:27
Because at the heart of the erotic experience for many people is like feeling alive and feeling the validation, feeling kind of like connected with the source of energy and that creativity.
And when people have good sexual experiences, for many people it's very validating.
23:44
That's why in long term relationship, when it's not happening, that can lead to rejection, all sorts of disappointment, relational conflict.
So I often say that having a good sex in a relationship is definitely more than having a good sex.
24:01
So if you want to have good sexual experience and you're not getting it long term, that will impact your quality of the relationship.
And this is where I love to bring in our frameworks with clinical psychology.
I think it's so important to tap into the neuroscience of the soul because I'm sure you have had clients like I do who come in saying I'm broken, this is not fixable.
24:25
I feel like this is going to be this way forever.
And that's where I love bringing in the neuroscience of the ability to make new neuronal pathways, the neuroplasticity of our minds.
And so the ability for dear listener who's tuning in like your, your brain is like a muscle, right?
24:44
When there is a thought, maybe for example, a negative thought that you think often, you know, maybe it's self judgement about your body or how long you take in the bedroom or all that sort of stuff, right?
That is a neuronal pathway that gets really used, which means it gets myelinated, which helps conduct it even faster.
25:02
So then that thought just goes really fast.
And if you're trying to move over into the other pathway of like, hey, I can take all the time I need.
I'm a hot sexy bean.
This is a great experience.
That's like a brand new muscle that you've never used.
And so it's pretty atrophied, right?
25:18
But what we know is that you lift a small weight and then a heavier weight and then a bigger weight, and then that is the neuronal pathway that you start to go down because of neuroplasticity and the ability to rewrite these things in our mind.
And so I'm always trying to like, teach and my groups like this is not fixed.
25:38
This is not fixed.
It can change, yeah.
And that's the beauty of it, right?
Like all of our sexuality is continuously evolving, right?
The person I was like 10 years ago sexually is not the person I am now.
25:55
And as you said, I hope that I continue to evolve.
And that's the beauty of kind of a erotic mind.
Like we are in a constant exchange with our environment, with experiences with all of it.
So we integrate it.
So, so it's very interesting that sometimes people they talk about sexual addiction model, right?
26:15
They talk about how, oh, you need to see more, more pictures, right?
Like more like more explicit content or more kind of like you build a tolerance.
And I always wonder, is it tolerance or your sexual life, like erotic mind is evolving, right?
26:33
That like you are integrating the information, you're enriching your sexual self and then you find different something else that you're interested in.
So it's interesting that how people are like a society scared of our evolution, of our sexuality.
26:50
You know, going back to my experience, right, women's sexuality is something that you're, you should be scared of, right?
Something that you have to hide it away.
And somehow after getting married, like you, you bring up this erotic, like seductive woman.
27:06
You should never work that way.
Well, it's just like the expectation is like very unrealistic when it comes to how people's sexuality work and evolve.
Totally.
I love that conversation about is it tolerance building or is it just evolution of your desire?
27:26
I think that's a really powerful place to slow down here because I know there's so much fear as you're saying that if I go to this next edge, is it just going to be me pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing, right?
And that's not necessarily always the case.
27:41
It can be, and that's for true of many different areas of life, whether it's sex, traveling, making friends, drugs particularly, right?
But that's not always the case.
You can slow down to really enjoy and evolve your taste and your palate.
28:00
I feel like in my journey, I was really afraid of like, I'm just going to keep hitting that next edge and having to push it and push it and push it.
But as I've done that, the the next edges that I find myself looking at are like better communication and presents, which like hell yeah, I love that.
28:19
That's my next edge.
Like please communicate really well and be really present with me.
That's great.
Right.
Like it's all like it's the same as food I would imagine.
Right.
Like if you're then you're kind of like fine tuning your palate.
Yeah.
Like, you know what you like, you like add more spices.
28:36
So it could be kind of like a positive thing saying, Oh my God, I'm not using like I'm not enjoying the more for lack of it or bland food.
Like I know exactly it doesn't work, right?
There's nothing wrong with vanilla experiences, but like our evolution of palette is not necessarily something that we should be worrying about, right?
28:56
And the the more that we get connected with our erotic mind truly in an embodied way, right?
Exactly like an embodied way you you experience more pleasure.
And that can be very healing in all aspect of life.
And sometimes, and there's nothing wrong with that could be a coping, right.
29:14
Sometimes, though, we might use experiences as a distraction or not Me, like anything, right.
Like I recently got into erotic sci-fi.
I guess I don't know how can I say that like erotic like that rest of this gender women.
29:32
Yeah.
There's a whole world.
Right.
I use it as a way of kind of at times zoning out.
There's nothing wrong with that.
Could be a coping way.
It's just going to break, like break the kind of give my mental break.
But that could be also true for sex as well.
29:49
And if it's not in moderation, there's nothing wrong with that.
Totally.
And that's where we can talk about, like you said, the capitalistic hustle push culture, which is like, must be productive, must be this, right?
Like the concepts of zoning out versus exploring your creativity and daydreaming.
30:06
I remember when I was going through my schooling, you know, we'd have practicum seminars.
I'm sure you did too, or you would process cases with your other classmates.
And one of my professors was an existential professor, Doctor Dubose, who would always, like, challenge a lot of these frameworks.
And someone came into our seminar was like, well, my site supervisor told me that one of the kids was having unproductive daydreaming.
30:33
We all just sat there.
We're like, what?
Well, what is productive day trivia?
You know what I mean?
And so it's like, is this a quote UN quote unproductive fantasy?
Like it's like, no, we're just exploring and enjoying the beauty of what our brains are and can be.
30:48
And what if we let go of it having to be about the orgasm?
What if we have to let go of these other sort of performance based outcomes?
That is so much of the society that is pushing on us with that.
Absolutely.
And right, kind of like kind of seeing value on it, like you being experiencing pleasure, right?
31:07
It's a form of advocacy, like as you said, like sometimes my Volvo owner clients, they think about like sexuality is something they do for the partner or they're coming into therapy.
It's like, oh, I just want to improve my sexual experiences for my partner.
31:23
But they think what's interesting is the key is for you to access your own erotic mind and your own pleasure.
And that's going to make all the difference because no one like like majority of people are not interested when they know their partner is not interested in sex.
31:40
Right, that kind.
Of like context can get very exciting when you see that you're Co creating that erotic energy.
And so as you said, the ability to build that and foster that within the internal, I think that's such a powerful thing.
31:58
You know, we, we talk about how in other areas of our life, we really want to make sure that we can have an internal sense of worth while also understanding that we're interconnected and interdependent.
And so of course, you know, the way that people look at you and think about you impacts you.
32:14
So it's not ever just like foster your confidence all by yourself.
That's, that's just not possible.
That's not how this works.
We're human beings that are social creatures, right?
So we have this understanding that we need both the external good community that supports you as well as the internal sense of confidence and also bringing that into the erotic.
32:33
Often we go into the space of the external like, do you want me?
Can I get turned on when you come to me versus do I actually get turned on by myself?
I love inviting my clients to take time in the mirror to turn themselves on.
32:50
Just truly look in the mirror and be like, I am hot and sexy and like feel that like coursing fire for themselves.
And typically what happens is when you hold that you're hella magnetic.
People are drawn to you when you do it with humility, right?
You're not just a big ego, a person and all of it, you know, caught Asterix, Asterix.
33:09
But like when you hold that confidence, people are more drawn to you than the person who's like kind of like cowering and being like, do you want me?
Am I attractive?
I don't know.
Absolutely.
You know what I was thinking about, Like people talk about how with ageing, right, like you, sex is something to desire them.
33:29
So we can't be the issue for some people, maybe for hormonal issues.
But what I discovered in myself that although maybe I'm like perimenopausal, but I have like the highest desire of my life because I know what works for me.
I know my body.
33:45
I have a very elaborate erotic mind.
So I think it's just like people sometimes they kind of think the physiological part of that, your hormones, your youth is that's what creates desire.
And they miss the point of how you're, you knowing yourself that you mentioned kind of like being present in your own body.
34:06
I think all of those things can help you to cultivate desire.
Totally.
I mean, we know that sexuality is rampant within the elderly homes.
I love that for for my future self.
Exactly right, Like which is actually sometimes a problem.
34:24
Like there's a lot of STI's going through those communities and that's like the whole thing of that, right?
So it's like it's so interesting that narrative that well, when you age, this is just what happens.
And you're right, there are hormonal factors.
There are body and capacity factors.
34:40
And also that is not an accurate script, right, of what truly happens.
Like Eroticism can age with even more confidence and play and capacity as you go into it.
And so that's another one of those scripts that I think people really fall into is when they start to feel that desire.
34:58
Wayne Oh, well, that's just because I'm aging.
And then they kind of just stop the story right there instead of thickening the story and looking more at research and other sorts of spaces like that to understand that that's actually not an inevitable piece of your your erotic life.
Absolutely.
35:15
And finding people that can help you see that version of yourself, right.
Because the script that we're having a dementia and is just like your sexuality disappears when you're older or we're kind of thinking about this old dirty man that like is horny, right?
35:31
Like which is like so reductionistic.
Yeah.
Instead of finding people that I can see myself, I can see like it I can be that when I'm my seventies, 80s and beyond.
So I think having this even image and the person that you can see yourself on can help you to lean into that.
35:50
Totally.
We're going to be badass podcasters in our 70s and 80s.
Right.
We're going to be like.
The orgasms are even better, you know, like, right.
It's truly a joy anytime I've had like women who are older who have come onto the podcast over the years who have spoken to that like I'm just like, yes, this is so important for our cultural scripts of what is possible.
36:09
Like to hear that with someone's body and voice, because you're right, we need cultural images of what's possible.
And without that we're kind of just floundering because this is such a subject that so many people don't talk about.
And so we're just kind of going off of these different cultural norms.
36:26
And I think a really big piece of this too is that the novelty parts of it all right there we got to talk about that.
Just the novelty, the the we are beautiful complex beings and also we have a monkey brain.
36:42
Like it loves dopamine, it loves novelty.
Not even just in our sex life, in all areas of our life.
And one of our our biggest strengths in terms of our evolutionary capacities is that we habituate the things that happen, we adjust, we're able to keep going, but that also can mean that our pleasures really habituate and we just become normalized to them too.
37:07
And so I think novelty is such an important part of this because often the scripts for women are like, women are just wanting one person and they don't want anything else.
They want it to be vanilla and really stable and all of that, right?
That's not what the research is showing at all.
37:25
Absolutely, all a woman want is love and if she's not having good sex it's because you're not loving her correctly.
Right.
Like how dismissed is that?
It's bad.
It is, and many people love their partner and they're having lots of bad sex because they feel like, as we talked to, I know exactly what's happening.
37:47
I love my partner.
It just feels odd to have sex with a family member.
There's so many different things, right?
And we need to be able to change the context.
And for some people, novelty can be that solution, as you mentioned.
And sometimes people have this script that if I need to put effort in my sex life, there is something wrong, right?
38:09
Because you remember our previous season in the relationship that sex was very effortless.
Because when you meet someone, there's already novelty built in.
You don't know how to serve body parts look like, what do they like, what kind of sound they make.
38:25
This all new things and there's nothing wrong when it's actually beautiful to have sex with your long term partner.
But as you mentioned, you got to find a way to create a balance between embodiment and also creating more novelty like you need to.
38:42
That helps us to feel engaged and that can help us to feel kind of like escalating.
They're kind of a script that we're having.
Hmm.
And it's not a bad thing to want that.
I think there's again that shame where it's like, oh, am I just chasing the hedonic treadmill?
38:57
It's like think about so many other areas of our life where we crave novelty.
You want to work on a new project, you want to travel to a new space, you want to explore a new restaurant, a new type of food.
Like it's OK, this is an area too where we are going to crave novelty.
39:14
And I think it's so important to understand that that can come in many different ways, whether that's a toy, a space, a scene, partners, like you have so many different ways to do that.
And so flexing that creative muscle, you know, to be able to think of new and novel ways of connecting is a really, really important thing to know that you're, you're not locked within this.
39:34
And I also really appreciate what you said about the ability to, to choose to come into sexuality.
We, we know Emily Nagowski with the responsive desire frameworks, right?
The ability to breathe into that.
There are so many areas of my life that I don't always crave things.
39:55
Do you know what I mean?
Like, for example, yesterday I went for a run, you know, truly not a runner.
But it's March and it's the perfect weather out here.
And I know that when I do that run afterwards, I'm going to feel all these really good endorphins.
I'm going to feel the blood flowing.
40:10
And so I choose to step into that activity knowing the pleasures there on the other side.
And in my long term relationships with my partners, that's a very common thing that I have where I'm like, oh, you know, I'm not like immediately horny right now.
But I know once we start kissing, once we start getting the toys out in the Louvre and we start doing all of that, I'm have a great time.
40:34
I love that and I think it's, as you said, true in so many contexts.
I have like amazing girlfriends that we always have a blast when we meet, but unless it sounds like the like a brunch, the activity is on our calendar.
It's not.
I'm not going to call my friend.
40:49
I'll like randomly say, Oh, let's let's all do something.
It would be beautiful if I was living in that world.
But in reality, right, like you're put in the calendar, they're going to be a driver, live in LA, drive to the place.
Like it's just all going to be lots of effort.
But as you mentioned, I have this memories of like so many great experiences and connecting moments with my girlfriend.
41:11
That makes it worth it and sometimes sex is like that in long term relationship.
You know the possibility and you show up in a low pressure way, right.
I'm not going to go to brunch with my girlfriend's like, oh, I have to make it worth it, right.
That everything I'm like, I mean this gas prices I drove 30 miles.
41:32
You have to make it work, right.
You're going in the openness and the trust that there's possibility here for great experiences and I think it's the same with our erotic experiences, with our long term partnership.
Absolutely.
41:47
Absolutely.
Because yeah, if you come in saying I want to orgasm in 5 minutes, we're going to order that food, we're going to get in, we're going to connect and get out.
Like no one's going to enjoy that.
That energy.
But that's the society we live in.
Faster, faster, faster, faster.
42:02
Produce, produce, produce.
Faster, faster, faster, faster, right?
And so we can see how that really goes into our sex lives.
Plus just even in our day-to-day now, the amount of stimulus we have from a neuroscience standpoint, the amount of dopamine and stimulus we have, we can only imagine how much that is impacting our cravings and necessity for novelty in these areas to really stimulate us.
42:25
Because when we're on screens and we're out and about, it's just constant more and more and more.
And so your brain does build A level of tolerance for that level of onboarding, which is why I'm going to be so curious as these younger generations come up with even more technology compared to older, like what are the sexuality habits and the things that we're going to see across because it's it's not fixed.
42:47
Again, we are always in the cultural context of our time.
And So what are we going to see in the age of such stimulus for the younger folks?
And I think it's like it's also very powerful to take responsibility.
43:02
I was like, as we were talking about the younger generation about our responsibility for our erotic presence, right?
Because sometimes when we are, I'm thinking about, we are in the part like a context.
I feel like with AI, for example, right?
So one relationship like the, the, the machine is catering to us and sometimes we feel that energy in the relationship, like if you have a lower desire partner, higher desire partner, we have this expectation that the higher desire partner is going to create the environment, kind of run the show.
43:38
And that can lead to like unsatisfying experiences and can impact desire for all parties involved.
Kind of like similar with the brunch example, right?
If I'm going with the kind of like not a great attitude, like expecting that like, oh, entertain me my.
43:54
Girlfriend.
That would be like one of the last times.
Help me get an invite.
Yeah, you really have to have all those people come forward to collaborate and that can absolutely means one person is topping and the other person is bottoming and that being a beautiful experience in and of itself.
44:16
But that is the Co created container where you have that discussion before, kind of like, hey, this is what I'm open to.
This is what I'm open to, beautiful.
And now it's like a picnic where some person brought this and the other person brought that, and we're both there for that experience.
Absolutely, and you are better your topping or like your bottom.
44:34
You are taking the ownership of your erotic in a way of pleasure, right?
Kind of like we are not necessarily saying that the other person is responsible for delivering and that pressure can kill desire as well.
So yeah, my invitation for people is kind of thinking about how can I bring the right energy?
44:54
How can I, as you mentioned, turn on myself coming into these spaces?
Yeah, that's a really powerful reframe to come back to self to create that and then that continual curiosity because there's so much, you know, you had mentioned parts, right, yours, different parts of you that are coming online and I teach about IFS frameworks to kinky parts.
45:22
And so thinking about it, rather than, you know, am I turned on by this kink or this specific act and really going through an act action based lens, I try to bring in more of the kinky parts lens to say that, hey, we all have kinky parts that love to play with that taboo, the forbidden, the edge, like those are all parts that exist in US, even outside of the bedroom.
45:45
We love to push the button that they say do not push this button.
There's just that earth.
You just, oh, oh, you know, and so that exists for all of us.
And what are the different structures or pieces or things that have gotten in the way of us accessing those parts?
46:02
And that's going to be a different for each person because of our different intersectionality of identities.
And then the cultural scripts that are there that have said this is OK or this is not right.
And so when we're coming in through that lens of trying to get more curious, you know how much psychological insight and curiosity you have to go through with that to be like, OK, right, These are the parts that have been tapped off from me.
46:26
I'm OK here.
I want to explore this edge.
So it's like the ability to turn yourself on and to truly build the emotional insight.
We talked about emotional insight in so many other areas of psychology.
We need emotional insight to your erotic profile and what does it for you?
46:41
Where are your limits?
And those are things that we need for safety that create much more playful and enjoyable experiences.
Absolutely.
And kind of like that's that getting to know yourself, right?
That's also create engagement.
46:57
I can't bring that erotic energy.
I know that sometimes people think about being a great lover is what you what's what you have in repertoire, like the skills, but my experience at least is that what I'm thinking about great experience that I had.
It's more about the presence, the person being truly embodied and present in that moment.
47:16
And I think that can come from this place of like curiosity and engagement.
Absolutely.
And so I imagine then that's why so much of our work, we try to bring people back to the body, right?
47:32
Because the all of these scripts are going on, am I enough?
Am I hot?
Do I look weird?
Did I make the right sound?
Right?
The more that we can flex that muscle of coming back to the body and just noticing attuning to our partners and kind of letting the rest of those thoughts float on by like clouds.
47:51
Very much so like mindfulness skills here to really be able to step into a lot of the pieces that we're talking about.
Absolutely.
And I know people talk about kind of being in state of flow.
Right when?
We're talking about work exercise, but you can be in the state of flow when you're having sex as well.
48:10
And one component is being present, the other one is doing something that's novel enough.
Like sometimes when they're doing something that's like, we don't know at all, it can feel like more logical.
But if you're bringing the right amount of novelty, which can come with experience, right, that can help you to be more engaged.
48:31
Absolutely.
And I feel like one of the biggest things that I continue to stretch into with more creativity is kind of, you know, I talked about the intimacy escalator to really take a step back from all of that and see it more as like a buffet table, a smorgasbord of options.
48:49
Or I've heard some educators talk about it like a menu right in In my own creative life, there have been people who have invited me to peg them.
And I'd be like, yeah, I could do that, but I don't want to kiss you.
Like these?
49:04
These feel like radically 2.
Different things that I know my younger self would be like, wait, how could you peg but not kiss?
And I didn't realize at the time how much I looked at it as an escalator.
Like you do.
Kiss.
First you do this and then you get to these other sorts of interesting things, you know, But like where I'm at now, it's much more like, OK, what's on the table, what's off.
49:25
Kissing is a a deeply intimate act that for me, it'd be much easier to pick someone than to actually share bodily fluids.
And how about sort of like fascinating, right?
Like, those are things that my younger self just would have just been like listening to this podcast.
49:40
Like she does what and.
How you know?
Right.
Like you have the freedom of choosing, right?
Like sometimes I feel like people feel first of all, when it comes to foreplay and it's just like they have this routine, like go first, you're gonna do a lot of kissing and they were doing this like it's just like very clear script and they're just not interested or maybe there is something in that escalator.
50:04
It's a stuff for them.
I have many people say like, you know, like my partner and I stay the type of kissing we do is just not compatible and we had had communication about that.
But so if you're finding something that in that escalator on that kind of menu that you talked about, it's not working for you, then no one said it needs to be part of the kind of like the options, right?
50:28
You get to choose.
And that can create more openness to do more stuff like because when we are, I think it's really helpful when thinking about novelty, we need to be a combination for majority of people, things that you like and you know, and things that you're trying to incorporate.
50:45
So that that's also very important.
Totally.
And then the meaning making that comes from that, right, because I, I remember many years ago when one of my partners did not like to kiss, I judged him hella hard.
I was like, what's wrong with your attachment that you don't want to do this?
51:01
So just fucking problematic.
But at the time, you know, I'm like a stubborn and, you know, in grad school studying all this like attachment theory.
So I'm like, there's something wrong with him, you know, and he, he laughs, you know, because he, we kind of like compromised in the middle.
And then years later, I got to a point in the relationship where I was like, Hey, I don't really like to kiss anymore.
51:19
And he's like, well, Doctor Nicole, what's wrong with your?
Attachment.
I was like, oh fuck, you know, like like, it's just.
These things, they come and they go.
But if you know, I know my younger self, if someone didn't want to kiss me but wanted to have sex, I would feel like they didn't like me.
51:36
Something was wrong.
All that they're wrong something me right, all those sorts of narratives.
And so it's really again, those are the unconditional, the unconscious narratives of our society.
That's so much so we make those assumptions.
And so you have to learn to really deal with the grief.
51:54
If someone says they don't want to kiss you right, you have to deal with.
The sense of rejection.
Right, and all the narratives, but it's interesting if you had a buffet and someone said, oh, I want to eat the pie this and some of the vegetables, but I really don't like shrimp.
Like that's just not my vibe like, but I like all the other things.
52:12
We'd be like cool, great, like welcome to my home.
You know, versus the way we do have it now where it's like, well, if you don't eat the shrimp, then you don't love me and the pie and you don't like my cooking over.
Here, right?
It's like very connected and very tight.
Exactly.
52:27
And I think it's just also brought up this kind of like they have concept of checking in with yourself on a daily basis, right.
It's like one of the things that people have a negative reaction, this idea of scheduling sex, like long term partnership.
People know when you say like schedule and sex, there's a part of the Oh my God, like now I have this schedule experience to have shrimp.
52:50
Yeah, now it's on my calendar. 8 to 9 have shrimp.
Yeah.
So of course, you're not coming up with excitement.
It's just going to make sense.
But I always invite people to think about the erotic play time, right?
Like an erotic play time, like 8 to 9.
53:06
You're checking in with yourself.
Maybe at 8:00 AM.
You don't want to have a shrimp, but you have appetite for something different.
And that's OK.
And I think that can make kind of like bring anticipation and also excitement and also embodiment, kind of like paying attention.
53:21
What does my body say?
I'm into like going back to my own experience of being disconnected with my body kind of thinking about I don't want to have intercourse as we're muscling through it and a body has its own wisdoms.
Like it's just not what happened.
And I can imagine in smaller ways, right?
53:38
We experience it on these sexual experiences.
We're saying that I just like don't like, for example, kissing.
I don't want to break my partner's heart.
I'm just going to go with it.
I don't like the way that they kiss my neck but I'll just go with it and like in small ways we are deeming our desire and that's really can show up with not wanting to have the experiences with someone.
54:04
Because then it becomes a classical conditioning experience, right?
That's something I've definitely heard of with clients where, you know, you keep doing that, you're doing that, you're doing that.
And it's like the one metaphor I heard for it before was like drinking rotten milk.
If you're like, OK, I could drink a little sip of this.
54:21
And then you do a little sip again, a little sip again, and someone offers you milk again, you're going to be like, I, I just really don't like that thing because each time you've had it, it's been sour, it's made you sick, all these little things, right?
So we have to think about the, we feel like there's an immediate win if we just pacify for this.
54:39
Just a moment, I'm just going to pacify.
I'm just going to pacify.
But the long term consequence of that choice, right, is self negation and then resentment and then these type of sexual experiences that you just don't even want anymore, right?
But the ability to name your desires, that is something that I often, when I'm teaching about it, talk about it as a foreign language, right?
55:02
Like I came from purity culture my desires the first time I was with a really awesome kink human in my.
World they like, they asked me very directly, like, how do you like to be touched?
And I just.
Froze.
I was.
Like I have never like I had had sex many years, but I'd never been asked that question, you know, never.
55:22
And I didn't have any language.
It was like someone asked me a foreign language and I just what are what are words, right?
And so, so much of this too is the ability to even find the language to name what you want.
Absolutely.
55:38
And kind of like having the courage to say no, right?
Like having the skill and courage, saying that not now or like.
No.
And having the also, like I always say relationship like a bank account, right?
Having the money in the relationship bank account that you can say no and feel like you can trust that the relationship going to be OK.
56:00
I mean, like regardless, I hope that everyone have the courage to say no, but also kind of like thinking about because of how I personally manage no in the past, how my partner manages no, we have that capacity to be grateful when we are hearing it now and kind of saying, okay, what else is in the menu?
56:18
So I.
Think that's really can be very powerful and giving feedback, right?
Like maybe like we have these experiences sometimes.
What I find that's interesting about affirmative consent is that maybe I don't know what I want, right?
56:34
And I think what's interesting is in the relationship, I feel safe enough they can put me in the edge of something that I thought it was a no, but now here we are, it's a yes, right?
I think having the trust can give me the capacity and trust to myself and to the partner, capacity to go on that edge, which can make sexuality even more exciting.
56:56
Totally.
Yeah, we were just talking about that in my sexuality group because we went through the different consent frameworks and fries.
You know, the S stands for specific, right?
And so we were talking about the difference between affirmative consent and limit consent, which is not as affirming, right?
57:12
Because for the dear listener who's unfamiliar, limit consent is really trying to find where your limit is of your erotic profile, which often means, you know, we can't have more negotiation of what's on the table to explore that limit.
But we're not going to be as affirming of these specific acts, right?
57:31
Because part of what we're doing is trying to find actually the limit of them, right?
And so maybe we could still call that specific under Fry's, right?
Our specific part of it is that we're doing limit right.
You know, we can get that nuanced with it.
57:47
But I think that's one of the biggest beauties of long term relationships, right?
Is that when we talk about like kinky parts and playing?
Like?
When was the last time you had a goofy sexual experience?
Like, just truly like.
Giggly Laffy, that being part of the intention.
58:04
And I think, you know, depending some people from the improv theater community that might have been last Tuesday, you know, like some of us, you know, like literally some of us from more of the science backgrounds, maybe that is not our field because we we're like research here we go serious, you know, but the beauty then of your long term partnerships is you can bring in some of those more like vulnerable edges, which like for me would be the playful, goofy side, like, Hey, partner I've been with for X amount of.
58:32
Years like I really feel.
Safe bringing some of this laughy jokey energy that I wouldn't with a novel person just because I don't have that history and that foundation and that trust and so I'm always speaking to like the the beauty of long term relationships is the safety, which means you can explore different edges you stop start letting go of some of the performative.
58:53
Aspects of it.
And your breath really expands so much more when you're not trying to do the, you know, like the just the really.
Performative shit, you know, like.
You can slow down and you don't have to have that huffing as you're feeling pleasure and actually just like expand into even deeper orgasms because you're allowing the breath to actually be natural with what it just is rather than the the performative scripts we see in porn.
59:19
Under lower pressure, right, Like you know, when we are in this maybe hookup experiences over the younger self, like we want every experience to be mind blowing.
Sometimes people's ego is connected to that right?
But oh, I'm gonna give them the best experience of their life.
59:35
The longer relationship we know like anything in life, they're gonna be some great experiences, some mediocre ones and some not great ones.
And it doesn't say anything necessarily about our relationship.
It's more about how every day we show up in life, so I think it gives us that permission to be really authentic and being open to not putting pressure on ourself or the experience, which makes it longer term more satisfying.
1:00:01
Totally, totally.
And that comes with practice, just true, straight up practice in this.
It's like an art, right?
The first time you go to paint with a paintbrush, it can be beautiful.
Maybe we've got some innate genius, like artistic talent in this community, like, yeah.
1:00:17
But also for the majority of us, right?
It's something that we get better at with skill and honing, like the language, right?
When we're learning how to speak or how to show up and be present and to allow ourselves to really surrender into our authenticity, those are things that are practiced.
1:00:33
And I, I feel like that's the biggest thing I, I can hope we can invite people to understand is that wherever you're at in your journey to sexuality, First off, you've probably already done a lot of stuff you should be proud of.
So many of my clients are like, the next thing, the next thing, the next thing.
And I almost want to just pause and be like, hold on, hold on, hold on.
1:00:50
Like the people who are listening to this podcast have already dismantled a lot, right?
So like, hey, celebrate and sure, there's also more and you will keep practicing, you'll keep going and and don't, you know, don't beat yourself up for the, the edge of the next thing.
1:01:09
Like how do I get better at this?
How do I get better at this?
And it almost becomes this like capitalistic performance and sexuality, like you're getting it on a resume and a grade and you just want to keep going versus just actually enjoying the creativity and the beauty and the connection of all of it.
1:01:26
Absolutely, and sometimes even doing something that you're not good with someone that you really have a strong relationship that can be bonding.
I was like I I do this journeys with my girlfriends.
They're amazing.
And I had like one of the intentions that we I had was my grandma was a very well known designer and she heard much of her work was with beats.
1:01:49
I was like, I'm going to bring some beats into the next journey and I'm going to connect with my ancestors.
Beautiful intention, but I like 2 beats in I was done.
I know we all have like 1/2 made like 2 beats like jewelry.
1:02:08
We share like a source of joy for us like every time and now like and I would take a picture of that.
I'm like doing like and I was like doing something that you're not good at, but doing it with people that you care and like a great time.
I think that on its own can be connecting.
It's the same for sex, right?
1:02:24
Like maybe you try something new and you can find it.
Like it's not our thing or we just look hilarious on this scene, right?
And that can also be very heart opening and vulnerable.
And in that story with the beads, I hear the ongoingness of consent with yourself, right?
1:02:44
Like you're like, I'm going to do this thing you got there.
And you're like, we're good right here, right?
Like so many years of my life, it was, you know, coming from purity culture again, I was taught to give my body to my husband and it was for his pleasure and it was never talked about.
1:03:00
And so the ability to just ask for a pause in sex because it was hurting like very even valid reasons that like in the here and the now, it hurts to know that that's where I came from, right?
But like you, these are the things that make us who we are and the careers that we have and why we're passionate about it.
1:03:19
But I just didn't have any language to be like, hey, pause, hey, I need more Lube.
Hey, actually I'm just done and I want to go do anything else, right?
So like your story of the beat, it's also giving you that moment to be like, consent is ongoing with yourself.
1:03:36
You can just pause and stop and always take that step back.
But I know that's such a hard thing, especially for women, right, who have been so conditioned to perform for the other to just be able to know that at any point in your sex life, you can absolutely stop for any reason.
1:03:57
So powerful, right?
Like we are so conditioned to be people pleaser.
So I think it's really important to give ourself permission that like, I feel complete and that's it, right?
Like, you know, I, I can communicate that.
And sometimes I feel like we don't need to even over explain if I feel complete.
1:04:17
And that can be, that could be all the answer, kind of like the responses and context you give your partner.
And I think that's also can be very validating because sometimes we feel like we have to justify why we don't want something or explain ourselves and just, it feels like very invalidating in a way.
1:04:39
And once you crack that seed open, the things that blossom from that to be able to one of the most taboo topics to just be like, Nope, I'm not going to justify.
I'm good, I'm done.
Wow, the embodiment that comes from that.
I'm sure you see this with your clients too, as much as I do in mine.
1:04:56
Like working on your.
Sexuality, life, or I?
Don't like the word working?
That's true.
But expanding your erotic capacity, your practice, your insight, all of that, it ripples out into every area.
1:05:12
Of your life.
As you're saying, even here, right, these are like microcosms that reflect and mere different ways of consent and people pleasing dynamics and all this sort of stuff in other areas.
And when you plant like a seed of empowerment in your sex life, the strength that comes out on the other side and all the other areas is transformational.
1:05:34
Absolutely.
And I love that.
Like kind of like bringing that like powerful part of your erotic self as a driver, like driving all aspect of life, right, because it can help you with feeling more creative, more connected because I even in a relationship, I want to receive no genuinely, right, Like because you do you want to know that your person that you're in this experience with them, sexual or non sexual, they're excited to be here, right.
1:06:04
I think that's just a gift that you're giving your partner when you're sharing with them that you're complete and you no longer want to engage.
Yeah, And the first time I was with someone where I said I'm done and I need to take a break and stop.
1:06:20
And they said thank you for telling me.
Not the pressure, not any of the other bullshit that happens, but just thank you for telling me.
Let's do that.
What a gift.
Right.
Yes.
You don't need to say like you're not trying to tell them oh you, what you did was a great like.
1:06:41
Right.
Your ego.
Totally you can.
See, they're OK, You're OK.
And that, you say, can be a corrective experience in all other relationships that we have.
That's why my groups, we talk about that as a standard razor like because some.
People are like I'm.
1:06:56
Afraid to like hurt their ego.
And it's like if it hurts their ego, that might not be the right person.
Absolutely.
And you're modeling for them, right?
Like you're giving them permission that like when they don't want to engage, they can also communicate that.
1:07:14
Absolutely, Absolutely.
I'm curious for you, when you look back to your younger self, what words of advice and wisdom would you give to your younger self around your sex life?
We see, I would say fuck whatever other people think.
1:07:37
Yeah, don't be worried about that, right?
I was like, so proper.
I like trying to have this perfect picture of what things supposed to be like.
Who cares?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It gives you the space to be you, your creativity, your play, all of that.
1:07:57
And no one cares.
I don't even know if I know people that I really like.
I know what's invested in how they saw me when I was in college, right?
I don't know, 25 years later, the ones that really cared for our connection, they're here.
And the other people, it's imaginary audience that I have in my mind.
1:08:16
Right.
They're nowhere to be found.
Right, Totally, totally.
And as someone who has a podcast right this, that's something I'm continue learning to give myself for my creative flow of just like stop trying to perform for other people or the imaginary person in my head or whatever, the algorithm, whatever.
1:08:34
Like how can we just show up at our own creativity here and just be with what is alive and charged for us?
I mean, that's a continual life lesson I'm still learning to like, take a step back from the pressures always to like, perform in some way, whether it's in sex or creativity or a conversation like this, You know, like, what does it mean to just actually show up with you in this here and the now rather than being like, here's the five steps to have a good sex life for the algorithm.
1:09:03
Do not forget about the hook.
Exactly, exactly, exactly.
That's how we get them.
Come in.
Listen.
Oh my God.
Let's do a click bait.
Oh, my God, You know, at this point, five years in the podcast, I know my listeners are not here for that.
They're here for this.
Like these moments where we're like giggling, laughing and just being real and again.
1:09:23
All of that.
Ties to what you said so beautifully, which is presence.
That's the magic sauce of a great sex life, right?
Presence and so that's part of what we practice in this space when we drop in together and we Co collaborate and I feel like I've been talking to you for 5 minutes, but that that's been an hour.
1:09:42
That's a flow state, the feeling.
Is mutual.
Yeah, Good, good, good.
Well.
I'll check in with you and see if there's anything else that you want to share with the listeners for today.
Otherwise, I have a closing question and then I'll also have space for you to plug everything to at the end.
1:10:02
I appreciate it.
I just want people to hear that however you are like whoever you are today, how are you showing up?
You're not broken, you are valid.
You're worthy of love, you're worthy of pleasure.
So and if if you want more pleasure, it's working on cultivating it to yourself.
1:10:23
I think it needs to be a priority because we live in a life that seeking pleasure is devalued, so it's really important for people to have their own back and try to cultivate more pleasure wherever they can.
1:10:41
Yeah, you're worthy of pleasure just as you are.
There's no performance that needs to be added to that.
Yeah, I know.
That would have made me cry for sure at different points in the journey, right?
Well, if it feels good to you, I'll move us towards our closing question.
1:11:02
Thank you.
OK, so I always take a deep breath with a guest.
And so the last closing question that I have for every guest on the show is what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?
1:11:24
Your taboo desire, there's nothing wrong with that.
There's Galaxy of options of willing people if you want to engage with to engage with you in those desires.
So that's that's what I want to share with with people.
I work with so many people that for decades they thought they were broken because they were interested in this thing or this turns them on.
1:11:46
And it can be very liberating to get commute connected with community of people who are interested the similar things with the community of people you cultivated, Dr. Nicole and all the spaces that people looking get connected with other like minded individuals and if they're interested in those experiences to have play partners for it, yeah.
1:12:08
Absolutely, absolutely.
I think it was Doctor Elizabeth Chef who had quoted that 80% of people have BDSM and king fantasies.
Yeah, I told like I'm working with conservative community, like the things that I what's what's very amazing, what I discovered, I noticed at least in my clients, the more conservative background you have, the kinkier stuff that you like, you really love.
1:12:34
I'm here for it.
Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely the taboo, right.
It's like, my gosh, I know I go into like travel into conservative States and I'm like, oh, I feel extra kinky here.
What is Oh, right, right.
I'm over here, you know, like it's very, very different in that way.
1:12:54
Well, it was such a joy to have you on the podcast today.
Thank you so much for joining me and all the listeners.
Truly a pleasure.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for holding this space, for having these conversations and having these intentional spaces for people to talk about their experiences.
1:13:12
Yeah, absolutely.
And I'm sure all of the listeners would love to know how they can connect with you.
Your podcast which I was a guest on, Where can they find all of your content and how to work with you well?
Thank you for for saying all of that.
1:13:27
In time for the invitation.
Yeah, my podcast called Sexology.
So wherever they listen to this show, they can search it.
If they want to connect with me, they can go to sexologypodcast.com.
They can find all the information of how to work with me, my blogs, my podcast, SAP all it's in the $6 you podcast.com.
1:13:48
Amazing, amazing.
Well, dear listener, I'll have all that LinkedIn the show notes below so you can go and connect right there.
And again, thank you so much for coming on the show today.
Thank you for having.
Me, dear listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Modern Anarchy.
1:14:08
Thank you for sharing this episode with your friends, with your lovers, with your community.
Truly, it means so much to me and I am so grateful that you are here.
If you are wanting to release jealousy in your non monogamous dynamics and step into a conversion and pleasure filled connection, you can read my book The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide for free on my website.
1:14:36
There you will also find so many other free resources, including worksheets on how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non monogamous dynamics and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure filled sex and relationships.
1:15:00
So head on over to modernanarchypodcast.com to find all of those free resources and I look forward to seeing you next week.
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