Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast featuring real conversations with conscious objectors to the status quo.
I'm your host, Nicole. I tried to keep her high, didn't know strong love. I tried to keep her quiet, but she's screaming outside of me. I tried to keep her high, didn't know short love. I tried to keep her quiet, but she's a wild, wild woman. Hello, dear listener.
I am so glad that you are tuning in to today's episode. We have birth workers and herbalists Andy Rose and JC join us for a conversation all about radical, holistic healing under capitalism. Together we talk about the healing nature of plants and herbs, the lack of informed consent and medicine, and being understandably upset with our current social conditions. As I was editing this podcast this week, I was thinking about my journey with my IUD attempts. I made three of them and none of them ended up staying within my uterus in the right place and all dislodged. But what I think was really interesting as I look back on that is that I came to my doctors and said I was feeling pain, an abnormal amount of pain. And the doctor looked at me and said, you know, that's pretty normal and never checked it. The only reason why I found out that my first one had dislodged was when I was doing CAT scans working up for my autoimmune disease and getting that checked that they noticed something was out of place.
This was years later. So I had come to a doctor talking about this pain. They told me that I was what I don't know, overreacting or just a normal amount of pain for someone with an IUD. And it was only years later that I found out through other things that it was actually in the wrong place the whole time. And again, I tried it a second time and even that process, I really had to advocate for myself to say to the doctor that, hey, something is wrong and I need you to check this with an ultrasound now.
And it just kills my heart that I had to advocate for myself for that. For the doctors that looked at me and thought I was, you know, overreacting the amount of pain that I have. It was hard to advocate for myself in that scenario and to demand to get an ultrasound to check these things.
And both times I was right that they were in the wrong space. And I know not everyone feels comfortable advocating for themselves in the doctor's office, in these difficult conversations where there is an inherent power dynamic. And that breaks my heart because there are probably many people out there who have had similar experiences of not being listened to in terms of our healing and the medicine work that we go through in these systems. So I just want to say that, you know, something we talked about in today's conversation is listening to your gut and listening to your intuition. And my gut knew that something was wrong.
And even though other people said it was normal, I had to keep advocating for that. And I just want to, and I just want to share with you that your gut knows, your gut knows when there is something wrong and to listen to that voice and to seek out other opinions and seek out opinions from different systems of thought. I talk about how we have broken up the body into so many different parts. And the reality is that many of these different healing practices have bits of truth and knowledge that need to be synthesized and brought together.
And so it can be important to get other perspectives on healing and what can be good for your body. So just sharing a little bit of my own personal journey with this one, because I think that I'm not the only person who has experienced this out there. And so if you resonate with that, I see you. I see you on that journey and the work that we are doing to advocate for ourselves within these systems.
I'm sending you all so much love and I hope that you enjoy today's episode. And then there's two people here. This is who is this other person? Hello. This is JC, my co-teacher for the class. Hi. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too.
Very excited to get to you. Yes, surprise. It's a threesome. Let's do it.
I'm down for that kind of surprise. That's a good day. How are you doing? Oh, I'm doing good. I'm just started bleeding. So I'm yeah.
I'm with you right there with you just today. I don't know what that is. It's a little bit slow. Taking it slow.
Heat pack. Oh, you can hear that. Got it. Yes. Love that. Love that.
Yes. Where are y'all located at? I am in the southern interior of British Columbia in the West Coonies. Yeah.
And then I'm on the north end of Vancouver Island. Cool. OK, so do you work together virtually then? Yeah. So cool. So cool.
How did y'all get connected? I wrote a book about contraception. Like we're both actually birth workers. So I wrote a book about it's about a lot of things, but the main thing that it's main sort of selling point is about teaching people to use herbs as birth control and like very early contraception. And I sent it out for people to read for feedback. And then Jase and I just ended up sending voice notes back and forth like forever.
And I got some of your tincture as well. Like there's a few birth Facebook groups in BC. And yeah, I think it was on there that you posted. You were looking for the readers and you had some stock of your Queen Anne's lace and I wanted to have that on hand for my practice and for me. So yeah, so neat.
Honestly, it's been pretty good. And then we just, yeah, we started talking like every day and I think our values are very similar, but our practices are quite different. And so our class layers together really well, because. In wanting to talk about the same topics, we bring very different things, but they flow really nicely together. Yeah, I love that. That co collaboration bringing together to make something even better than probably you could have created by yourself.
Yeah, I think it's one of the biggest strengths of our class, actually, is our our teamwork. Yeah, yeah. Well, as someone who just found out that their IUD is displaced again. Any advice that you might have for someone I'm thinking about getting another one placed under sedation, but it's just like this journey of finding some sort of contraception that works is quite the journey.
Yeah. And if you have, if your body is just sort of shaped in a way that the IUD doesn't like to sit where it's placed, like not to be overly fear mongering or whatever, but that can be really dangerous, right? Because it can in a worst case scenario, it can cause pretty intense damage to your uterus, right?
So I can see why that would feel. Scary and uncomfortable and also increases your chances of getting pregnant because you have this thing floating around. It's like, yeah, I think for the people who IUD is work for, they love them. And then for the people that they don't work for, there's a lot of stories of like. Why is it like this?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know, I know, because I wanted to go a non hormonal route because the hormones just made me break out so badly. So I've just never wanted to go down any sort of hormone route. So I've done copper and I had my first copper and then it perforated, came out, tried another one and now a year later, they're saying it's not in the right place.
So it's not effective anymore. And I'm like, like, you're telling me I got to do this again? Yeah, sounds like your uterus is like, no, thank you. I know, but I don't want to go on the pill and I don't want to do the shot because all the hormones and it's just like, you know, condoms, you know, but then you got risks there with those breaking. So I just wanted to have two methods, you know, but like, damn, it might just be all I'm left with these days. Yeah, I'm like, similar to yours. Like I was on hormonal birth control pills, the nuvarine, like for how many years was that?
Maybe five years. And then, yeah, I was having bad side effects from the hormone. It's actually getting like chronic yeast infections every month. Oh, my God. And I didn't even put it together that those two things were related. It was a natural path, like mentioned, like potentially those could be related. And so I went off. They completely stopped. But same. I wanted to have a method.
Yeah. I went with the copper IUD and, um, yeah, it just didn't feel good in my body either. And actually like kind of caused heavier bleeding for me at least. Damn. And I haven't been on birth control ever since I got that taken out. No.
Oh, I see. Yeah, I started tracking my cycle and using the cervical mucus method and torture and condoms. And yeah, it's working pretty well for me. So honestly, highly recommend it.
Really? It's I'm so in tune with my body. Like I know when I'm ovulating.
Right. I just know some like, maybe not today or use a backup method or, but it's pretty powerful and that's, yeah, something Andy and I talk about sometimes too. Another class actually on top of this mental health one that we teach, we're thinking of teaching a herbs for the fertility continuum.
So like inclusive of contraception, but also doing like conception and pregnancy and birth and postpartum and children and all this kind of stuff. Cause it's, I think that's kind of our other shared wheelhouse, you know? But yeah, that's what we connected on originally. And I can send you a copy of my book. Sure. Quite fully finished. It's very close to being done.
Exciting. But yeah, it's wild to me like, cause most of my doula work has been supporting people with contraception stuff. And, you know, we can only get pregnant for 24 hours out of every month. And the window is expanded by the fact that sperm can survive for five days. So like if we have sperm in our body, it can last that whole five days up until that 24 hours.
But, you know, when the egg is released from the ovary and it's floating down that tube, there is a very small window of time and it's not hard to track when that time is. And because we don't trust people to do that. And there are, there are reasons why we don't, because a lot of us are really disconnected from our bodies, right?
But yeah, then we end up putting people on. I was on hormonal birth control for over a decade from when I was a teen, a young teen until I was in my early twenties. And then I was raging feminist and was really angry about the like unfair sort of burden that's placed on women and people with wombs. And then I was in queer relationships for a really long time. So I was just like, I just have queer birth control. I just don't have sperm.
Plus, we're not getting pregnant, right? Absolutely. Yeah.
Yeah. I like the idea though of, of tracking your cycle and being connected to it, right? And having this like deeper connection to your body. The other half of me is like ridiculously busy and or using the word lazy in that sense, we're like, wow, like you're telling me I got to add another thing on top of it, but also like maybe there is this space where it's even more of a spiritual and like embodiment practice to be connected to your aspect of yourself. Definitely.
It was really powerful. And I think honestly, it's easier to do than we, I wrote this whole book about this and, but I don't think I've ever tracked my temperature. Like I tried to at one point and the thermometer that I had didn't work properly.
And I just was like, fuck this. Like you can, you can literally track it through. Like for me, I can track it through cervical mucus and like my mood. And it's, it's pretty accurate. Like I've known. I've definitely known every time that I was pregnant or potentially pregnant. Like I knew before when my bleeding time was happening.
Damn. So if you're a reasonably like self aware person, like as long as you have a fairly straightforward cycle, some people's cycles are a little more tumultuous. Like our cycle is a reflection of a lot of different things in our life. So yeah, I mean, we have a very, we have a very sort of funny over JC and I have this like, cause we're both birth workers and then we're both herbalists.
We're not giving you a protocol for what to do. Like for sure, for sure. But you both have lived experience with these things. And I think sometimes, you know, at least I can recap, you know, from the conversation I had with my doctor about it, right? Who's from the medical model, you know, who kind of told me like condoms don't really work. So, and I'm like, you know, especially as someone who's poly, like that's part of my world is using that sort of condoms, like, you know, with multiple partners.
And so like, I'm already doing that. But like even that push from that medical perspective of like, well, you should have another like medical way, you know, like there wasn't any sort of discussion in that conversation about like, well, yeah, you could track your periods and then be aware of it and kind of know and then work around that. Like that wasn't even part of the options that were presented to me in that conversation I just had about this, you know.
Yeah. The options are very limited that are presented. It's kind of like, here's number one, number two, number three in their book. I don't know who tells them what they should offer people, but it is. It's often the same thing for everyone, right?
So like no individuality or honoring the unique experience of individuals. And yeah, super limited. Also, like, I mean, what is the percentage of condoms? Like it's in the 90s.
So I don't know if you could say they don't work. I know, I know, right? I looked it up afterwards. I think it's the difference between like when it's used properly versus when it's used by normal people, right? And it's the same thing with fertility awareness or any method, right? Where fertility.
First control, yeah. Like with fertility awareness, if it's done properly, it's in the high 90s. But if it's not done properly, it's not. Right. Right, right, right, right. Absolutely. And I think, but that's the discussion of that.
They don't talk about that either, right? And then have that space to say like, yeah, when it's used properly, it's actually very, very effective. And I think it's, it's scary sometimes when these are the people that you're getting your information from, right? Because it's your trusted source, your doctor. And there's always such a push towards, I mean, I could even get into this about psychiatry, right? And like that whole space too, someone that works in psychology where there's always this push towards like, well, here's a drug that you could take.
Here's this, this, this, this and that, right? We're, rather than having the space to discuss, maybe more like methods that don't include changing my body chemistry in some sort of way. Part of the reason why it's desirable to people is because people want to have those conversations and they want to have them in a way that is not ideologically rigid, where you're either talking to someone who's like, pharmaceuticals are bad. You should never be on pharmaceuticals because they're horrible for you or talking to someone who are like, plants can't do anything or it's dangerous for X, Y, Z reason. Like it's actually very rare to talk to someone, I think, who's able to be like I'm personally on a pharmaceutical that I might be on for the rest of my life that works really well for me and helps me sleep. It reduces my anxiety, makes my dreams more vivid. It's a good fit for me.
But I also use plants and mushrooms on a daily basis and I would never want to go one without the other. And it's very difficult to find people who first of all have that experience and second of all feel confident to make suggestions for other people based on the questions that they have. Because a lot of people are so scared of liability and that's what's happening with doctors a lot. They have a script of what to say and the script is partially written by pharmaceutical companies and some of what they offer is helpful but it's got a limited scope.
And it's not usually enough. Like so many, we do consultations like together and separately and so many of the consultations we do, we're talking to people and we're like plants can maybe help you cope with stress slightly better but the situation you're in is really hard. Pharmaceuticals or plants or mushrooms, it's not really going to matter if the circumstances of your life stay the way that they are. Right, right, absolutely. Yeah, you know, for a while I was hoping that like these conversations could happen with a doctor, you know, in that setting and I've kind of tried, you know, because I do have the knowledge and the communication skills and I'm not saying it's impossible.
I'm definitely not saying it's impossible but like Andy was saying, there are other factors at play, right, where your health and well-being isn't the only concern. Like isn't it only, yeah, they have other things to think about like their licensure and legality and so yeah, that's why this class has been really, really beautiful. Like for me as well, you know, it's been super healing and educational for myself as well just to have a space to just have these conversations and ask people their experiences, you know, like what is your experience on, you know, this pharmaceutical versus this pharmaceutical? Like it's so great to finally be talking about this.
So I love that we kind of created a space for that to happen. Right, yeah, and I think part of the reality for why this is what it is is because we've broken up like health into so many different pieces, right, we're like psychologists, I just do brain, I don't do any sort of, you know, pharmaceutical anything, but then you have the medical model and then that's all pharmaceutical and they might not be taking in the contextual factors of kind of like you were saying Andy, like the different sort of situational things that are going on in terms of your world and other pieces and we've just like broken up the healthcare system into so many like different parts thinking they're all separate and I think we're starting to realize there's even a mind-body connection, all these other pieces plus alternative ways to find healing, right, like plant medicine and other sorts of things, you know, and because we've separated it so much so differently, like there's no center point to come and talk to people about these things. Yes, it is all connected.
Yes, mind, body, gut, environment, nervous system, vegas nerve, food, like all of it, you know, just to... Normals, trauma, attachment, resilience, sleep. I think a lot of people have tried natural ways of doing something and they're at the point where they're either on or considering a pharmaceutical because they need help. There are some pharmaceuticals that I think particularly amongst the folks I know who have ADHD, a lot of people that I know on ADHD meds are like, this has changed my life. Like I can actually, I can sit and I can focus and I feel that way the pharmaceutical I'm on is not for ADHD. I was a chronic insomniac for like over a decade and I'm a single mother so I need to be able to go to sleep. Like I can't be awake till four in the morning, you know.
Yeah. Sometimes a person doesn't necessarily need an herb that helps them feel calm. Sometimes a person just needs to be nourished. That's a huge piece is starting with being well nourished. Right, right. That's good, well nourished, yeah.
Yeah, all of these pieces are needed to come together to be able to like thrive. You can't, you know, any sort of other machine that we would think about like a car, you know, you can't just like leave it on empty and expect it to run like that. And a lot of the times that's what we're doing, especially if we're so busy and we're just running from one thing to the next and you're just eating something really quick and like might not be getting all the nutrients and other pieces that you need to really be alive and like how deep that can affect your mood. And yeah, to me it's really fascinating because there's just, you know, I was on an SSRI for what like two and a half years and then recently came off at this July.
So this is my first kind of run around trying to like having been on one now getting off and noticing the differences that I feel in my own experience. And then even like the research on it and just like this big reality that we don't know how those work at all. I think there's a lot of like presumption that we're like, yeah, we figured it out. We realized that serotonin we're just like really easy like here's the drug for it. And then we've realized that serotonin doesn't have any connection to depression slash we don't know how these drugs are effective slash we also know that there's this recent study that came out in November that specifically said that mindfulness was as effective as SSRIs. And that was pretty radical for me to see like, okay, we're talking about mindfulness being as effective as a pharmaceutical like we really need to rethink these conversations about how often we're like, here you go, here's the drug like is there a world where we could give mindfulness just as much of a like run for its money of like, here you go, here's your and I think it depends on context of where people are at and how effective it is. And like people also throw in like working out as or be moving your body as another one that's been as effective and all these other pieces.
It's hard to say. Because you're right that we don't know how pharmaceuticals especially things like SSRIs really work. And we especially don't know about the interactions between things like, like I work a lot with psychedelics and psilocybin specifically, we also don't know how like what the interactions of these things are. But we're really walking through this experientially and and from a place of our embodiment and our intuition, SSRIs do seem to be numbing to our emotional capacity. And there are moments in life when that's good, you know, when we're like, we are feeling very afraid, we feel like everything is too much, we can't function, we can't like it just it's too much. And, you know, then eventually we reach a point where we're like, you know, we can't use the SSRI to numb selectively, we can't turn the volume up on how much we love our dog and turn the volume down on how stressed we are about school or our job or some other problem we're having, we just are numb to all of it. And then people are often walking through this journey of like, okay, you know, I've had the load lightened long enough that I actually feel isolated from my emotional experience, and I want to start walking back into that sense of feeling. And then the person is having to go through usually tie trading off in some way, coping with withdrawal. And then if they're also adding psychedelics into the mix, you know, psychedelics turn up our emotional sensitivity. And then, you know, they do other things as well. But it's this whole sort of like dynamic flow of how we're moving through our sense of connecting to ourselves and the world. And these are really complex things. And we can't get into this in a 10 minute conversation with our GP, both because they don't have the time and also because they're just not trained to hold all of that.
Right, right. Yeah, because they're usually focused on other sorts of things in terms of their expertise. And because psychedelics specifically, psilocybin, these other medicines, there's still so much limited research about it. And until it's legal, they're not going to talk about it.
You know, that's part of, you know, the reality of that. So I am currently training at Sauna Healing Collective in Chicago, where we do ketamine assisted psychotherapy, since that's legal, and we're able to do that in-house. I was talking to one of my supervisors in that space. And I feel like when I was asking him these questions about SSRIs and psilocybin, I'll have to do some research before I release the episode and make sure I have some like studies or something to like back what I'm talking about. But I feel like he was saying that, yeah, the way that SSRIs affect the brain in terms of the different types of serotonin receptors, like if we have, I'm saying like a 1A, 2A, these different types of receptors in the brain. So even that sort of way that they might be acting in different ways, but kind of like you said, Andy, like the serotonin with an SSRI is going to numb down the expression. So that it's actually less, you know, there's less of a range of a window of emotions in terms of happiness and sadness, right? It kind of like narrows it to calm where, yeah, psilocybin, these psychedelics do almost the exact opposite where it amplifies all sorts of emotions. So then, yeah, you're coming into this interesting mix of something that can dampen and amplify and trying to find that in between there or the helpfulness of that sort of beauty that is plant medicine. I think these are really tough conversations for a lot of people that, one, because of the legality of it, you know, like who do you go to to talk about this?
And again, like you're saying, like a lot of people don't necessarily have expertise on this, like we do to be able to have that sort of conversation. A really good resource is the Spirit Pharmacist. I think he's called Spirit Pharmacist on Dr. Ben Malcolm. Yeah, he has a PhD in pharmacology. It's psychiatric pharmacology.
Yeah. And then he is doing all this work with people integrating psychedelics with with psychiatric pharmaceuticals. And he actually, I think the best thing about his mailing list is that every month he sends out like a roundup of new research and he summarizes it. I consider myself like a pop science nerd. Like I just, I can't really do the like deep true science. My brain just doesn't really work that way.
But I can read, you know, sort of like the abstract, the summary. Right, right, right, right, right. For sure, for sure. Yeah, I love research. Yeah, and it's scary as someone who's like supposed to be trained in how to read that. Cause that's like part of my training is like, even the amount of bias that is in all of these sorts of things is fascinating. Like how people define variables, who they let in the sample size, even like when you get into the statistical like analysis and very things that they're running to be able to process that. Like at the end of the day, you kind of get to decide like who falls in or outside of your data group. Like even when I was going through training in school, they'd be like, yeah, that's kind of an outlier. We can just like let those people go out of the data and like leave it, you know?
And you're just like, cause I mean, you do so many, you do like hundreds of people. So you get these random outliers. But the reality is like also like so much of that then is being manipulated by like what's your variable, how you define it and all these other pieces that like, it's almost exhausting to be clear, even as someone who's trained in how to read these things, to be able to read them because there's just so many pieces and it's so scary to me how like I can see research and then people will interpret it and then write a summary and then like it just goes in the complete different direction from what the study was actually saying. And I'm just like, holy fuck, like so like the news and media like any sort of like creative title that we can throw out there to be like, this is that, like people just kind of do that in this world and it's so scary to me. I also really, I really love like one of the things that's kind of cool about working with psychedelics specifically is like I also come from a harm reduction festival background where I used to do wandering and like information harm reduction for people. And so a lot of my knowledge comes from the sort of Aeroid Vault, which is like, you know, if people don't know what Aeroid is, it's like people using different substances and then self reporting their experiences.
And if you go, and it's a very cool kind of like DIY rogue type of science, right? Where, and I think that it makes room for what you're talking about. These like outlying people to express what has happened to them and sort of the value of that that I draw from that is that we can use our bodies and our own experience to map these things, you know, we can. And I think JC has taught me a lot actually about St. John's Wort, which is a major anti-depression herb.
Although JC would say, that's not actually what I think it's for. But it's like, you know, these things of mapping our like experiences in these plants and these mushrooms that have these certain kinds of reputations when actually they're much more complex beings than this. They have a much more complex way of existing in the world and in our bodies. And you're right that the science, you know, it lends an air of legitimacy, but it's not necessarily like all the whole truth, right?
Yeah. You know, one thing that's really neat is both of us coming from our different practices. We kind of do this in a similar way as when someone is coming to us and they're wanting to work with a plant. We really encourage people to, you know, everyone asks, like, well, how much do I take and how often? And we both encourage people like, you know, it's up to you try five drops, see how it feels.
Try 10 drops, try one drop, you know, really tune in to your experience. And some people are like, oh, like, they just so resistant to that. Like they don't have that relationship yet. They crave instruction. And so I guess that comes first, right? Is that self-knowledge and tuning into our bodies to be able to move forward in a relational way?
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and I mean, knowing knowledge through research is like one way to do it and to assume that that's the only way is a very colonial patriarchal hierarchy of like, this is the only way we know knowledge versus other ways that society, humans have no knowledge, which is through direct lived experience with all these different relationships, especially when it comes to something that currently is still illegal, right? So being able to have conversations and know other people that do it, yeah, is a big piece of this. And yeah, I definitely get people asking about dosing too. And it's an interesting topic, I think, because like part of like the philosophy where I train is always like inner healing wisdom and being able to have a felt sense of where to go and to explore that. But it's also so tricky because like, depending on what sort of information you've read on the internet, someone might say one gram is a psychedelic experience and to someone else, they might say, you should go and have five, you know?
And like those are really big differences. And so being able to like have like an informed consent about kind of knowing almost like, hey, you know, like this is kind of where this might go. I mean, we don't even know with your metabolism, your body, the actual substance you're getting, but this is also where this might go and you're gonna ultimately get to decide, you know, but like here's the informed consent of like, what this might do, what this might do, and what this might do. Because like, I think we're just missing that conversation of informed consent about these when we're looking on Reddit or other sorts of places to like find out how to do this, you know?
No, I feel similar. I just read a psychedelic guiding manual, someone sent it to me and asked me to read it because they wanted my opinion on it. And I found it really wild that they were advising people to take a four or five gram dose, which on the one hand is like, sure, sure, you can do that.
But on the other hand, I'm definitely very much in camp. Like, and again, I learned this from Festival Harm Reduction. It's like you start low and you build on it, right?
Like you don't necessarily want, and of course in my younger years, I did some heroic doses of things that weren't measured and who knows? Yeah. Who knows what was going on?
I'm alive. Yeah, because I mean, most people who work Harm Reduction, we come to it through having had had some experiences where we needed some help. And then, you know, we learned the humility and the ability to be with people, which again, like I think is similar to the birth work sort of aspect, right? Even this book I was reading was talking about this, about how like if you're sitting with someone as a psychedelic guide, you're like a midwife to the spirit. And there are these sort of beautiful, intuitive, energetic aspects of working with plants. And I would argue also working with pharmaceuticals to a certain degree, because everything is ultimately derived from the earth in one way or another.
Yeah. But at the same time, it is also nice to, you know, one of the things that JC has really taught me is I've worked with St. John's Ward in various ways and always not been super happy with the results for different reasons. Either I didn't get the color in the oil that I wanted or I would take it and it would increase my anxiety or make me feel a bit manic. And, you know, JC just taught me so many details, like for example, working with like the fresh plant as opposed to the dry and how much the research about St. John's Ward is on the dried plant and focusing really specifically on this one part of the plant, the hypericum, you know? And it's like when you start to understand all of these little detailed pieces, it's like, you know, on the one hand, going with intuition is a beautiful way to do it.
But on the other hand, it's also helpful to talk to a nerd sometimes. Yeah. We don't all have to figure it out on our own.
Yes. Most of us don't have hundreds of hours of research about a plant under our belt, right? Right, exactly, exactly.
Crowd source and citizen science. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, that way that you can kind of have a little bit more sense of just what you're getting yourself into. You know, I think, I think the future landscape of this is going to change a lot in the next 10, 20, you know, 30 years of having conversations like this. And I think it's scary to think we will hope right that the legalization of psilocybin for mental health and other sorts of recreational Jesus spiritual Jesus, you know what I mean? Use doesn't go down just into a medical model where it's completely controlled by people who have a doctorate in medicine, right, which I could see that world creeping in, you know, there's people like compass that are paying to like have control over the therapeutic use of psilocybin in certain ways.
And we just hope that that's not where it goes, right? That's not the history of this sort of plant medicine. It's never been medicalized like that's been an indigenous practice that's been around for centuries, right? So we're just I think at a very critical time to see like as it's starting to become legal and the research is coming out through the medical model, which is what like controls, you know, the laws around drugs and other sorts of things and the politics like we're at a very critical time, I think in seeing like where this goes and who has power over it.
Scary. Well, legalization is a tricky thing. Like, I mean, both both JC and our Canadian, right? And so in Canada, the legalization of marijuana has been really odd to watch because on the one hand, it's great that it's legal now. But on the other hand, there are when we were in the sort of gray zone with marijuana, which is I think sort of similar to where we're at now where there are some ways it's, it's sort of functionally decriminalized or like less criminalized than it's been in the past.
There's a lot of room to kind of experiment and play and do different things. But, you know, when we get into the place where we legalize it, we also are criminalizing it in different ways, you know, like in Canada, we're only allowed to grow for marijuana plants per household. So even if you have, you know, a giant collective house with 10 people or an intergenerational home, you can't have 40 plants because you have 10 people, right? Only have those four plants. And if you read the actual law, like how you're supposed to dispose of any additional plants, it's just bizarre. Like you're supposed to like, I think you're supposed to like chop up the plant and add cat litter to it or something.
So it's totally destroyed, you know, it's very odd. Like the whole, and I mean, both JC and I both come from, we work within this kind of wise woman tradition, which is like laid out by herbalist like Susan Weed, but it's, it's much older and longer than that, right? It's like knowing that it belongs to us and it belongs to our ancestors and that we belong to the earth and that we're in this conversation ongoing way of living with all the beings around us, you know, and it's, it's so, it's so strange to be kind of prescribing and conscripting that inside of the medical model and the legal system. But we need those things to change for it to be more accessible to more people. There's that fear of, yeah, losing it, the people's medicine, right? Like having to rely on, yeah, someone with whatever, excellent certification, what do you call it, permits, all that, there is a disconnect there.
There is a disconnect, yeah. Licensure and the limits of licensure. Like we see that obviously a lot in birth work, right? Where it's like, you see sort of midwives in Canada because we have, you know, we have our universal healthcare system and it's, and it's great. And I, there's a lot of good things about it, but our, our midwives that are covered by that system are so heavily steeped in liability and the structure of their licensure that they are doing things on a regular basis that are violating women and violating the people who are giving life to our children. And they don't even necessarily see it that way, because they are like, you know, I have to do this to maintain my position of power and authority, you know, and it's like, I think both of us are trained in a way that we believe that the authority has to rest in the person who is giving birth. And I think that, yeah, there are so many parallels between just learning to take responsibility for our own health and our own autonomy as healing beings.
You know, it's a very different model to be fully responsible for yourself and your choices, not have someone or something else to blame. And I do think it makes people slow down and become a bit more creative. And we just, we just, we want to facilitate people feeling more comfortable to experiment and to play and to have trust with creative options. And to know that they have choice and that ultimately it's their choice, you know, whatever, from whatever option or direction they decide to go, like there's no right or wrong, there's no stigma, you know, just to know that we have choices and really only be, you know, the depth of our experience and yeah.
Right, right, exactly. Yeah, I think even as someone who is getting to a point where I will get a license, right, there's even fear for me in this level of conversation of like, I have to be careful about what's said on the podcast and what's said here versus there because like it could risk my ability to practice one day and all these other pieces that like it does because of that reality, it's just like so much almost like blocking of maybe what I would say to a friend or other sorts of pieces because there is that fear then of like, oh, well, this is, you know, it has a different meaning because of your doctorate or whatever and all these sorts of things. And so it's such a scary space to be in in terms of like honoring that power that's there to be able to work under the thing that I've trained under versus also being able to speak.
And I think for me, like one way always around that is to put out a podcast in a way that's not professional in that, right? This is my personal life. I'm talking about my personal experience with psychedelics, which has been very healing for me, right? Like I can talk about it in that way instead of being like, this is what you should do, dear listener. It's like, here's my experience and you can't really fault me for talking about my own experience in this, right?
But like, yeah, like you said, playing in the game in the system with a licensure, it really does restrict you in a lot of ways. Yeah. We also we need all of those parts and pieces, right? Like, and I think that we need we need people who are speaking these things. Yeah, for sure.
For sure. It's crazy though, to be to have a license to be able to do therapy means that like, I'm going to prescribe or medicalize people and diagnose them with something. And that's almost what it is, right? Is it's like any sort of therapy I do, I don't get to get out of this like whole game where I have to like give someone a diagnosis, which I don't necessarily believe in because I believe in larger like systemic factors that are going on the relational factors that are going on the nutrition that may all these other pieces that are totally it's not about the person as much as it is about the context, the generational trauma, the other sorts of things. So like that model doesn't even make sense to me. But like, this is kind of the world we live in, where a lot of people won't have access to therapy. Otherwise, how am I going to get out of that model?
I do want to create a nonprofit where I can do sliding scale where we don't have to use therapy or insurance at all. Like, these are all pieces of how I'm trying to get out of that model, I think, but it's a whole different world. So like, if you know, one step at a time trying to dismantle the field, the patriarchal field of psychology, but I think part of like training at a place where I am, you know, talking about psychedelic experiences and helping other clients through that experience, part of also what I do want to offer is like a whole space of using psychedelics for creativity. Like, there's so much of this push of like, here's psychedelics to like heal mental health, heal mental health, it's like, yes, it can do that.
And there's also more to it. What if you want to have a creative practice, you know, were you personally, again, this is where I will talk about my personal experience, I like to have a psychedelic experience, bring out all of my coloring supplies, paint, art, writing and just have like a full creative day, which is a part of my spiritual practice, right? Of just dipping into that and letting that flow. And I just don't think there's enough conversation about stuff like that.
Love that. Because that's what often, you know, whether it's the pharmaceutical industry or the supplement industry, like they pigeonhole plants, right? John's work, John's work is it's good for depression. And now, what you say is like, that's kind of what is happening with psychedelics and psilocybinism. It's good for mental health. But there are all these other aspects, you know, I was just listening to a podcast of using ketamine for sex therapy, like heck yeah, you know, like there's all these avenues, the plants are so multifaceted and but that's just how our human brains like to work.
Categorize and Well, and the licensure piece, right? So like you can't use, like you can't start to use ketamine for something that's not been researched or proved to be used for, right? Like, oh, but then it comes into again, like the patriarchal model of sort of evidence-based practice, which is what, you know, the field of psychology medicine is all based on versus the field of time-tested medicine, right?
Like there are people have been using these things for centuries. And when do we listen to that sort of experience and truth and time versus like a certain model of knowing truth in terms of like research evidence-based practice? And it's like, I think like, how can we hold the nuance of both of honoring it? But then again, comes back to that licensure question where it's like, well, now I can't talk about it because it hasn't been used for that. So I can't really, so we just kind of like get ourselves into a bind of being able to talk about these things, which is so sad because at the core of it is healing and people's healing and that's what should be more important, right?
Than like my licensure. But again, systems above us, it all kind of keeps us clamped in this way. I mean, I think one of the things that JC and I really both share as a value in our herbalism practice is that we sort of see plants and fungi in a way that is similar to people in the sense that they have a personhood. They have a consciousness. They have a personality.
They have a wisdom that they carry. And they're more complex than these single actions that we assign to them. There's an energetic resonance as well. And that's how you can work with these things in really, really small doses and have found impacts, deep impacts from it.
Yeah, to be able to know that and have that sort of relationship then with the power of each of these different plants, substances. And I think it's it's funny because people are always like, oh, but it's it's drugs. Like, you know, drugs, you know, like, and it's always funny to me that like in our society, every single day, people wake up and take a plant medicine, a plant drug, and it's coffee.
And people are just like, yeah, that's totally normal. Because I drink that every single day. And I'm like, you remember, that's a psychotropic substance that will change your psychology and how you're perceiving the world. And everyone's like, yeah, but that's just what I do. It's just funny to me, especially in the field of psychology, when I'm working with other like psychologists and talking about it, and they'll be like, oh, yeah, this person was smoking cannabis or like wanting to take these other things as they're buying a cup of coffee. And I'm like, do you understand the judgment that you're having towards someone who takes a cannabis gummy every single night to sleep as you get a coffee to wake up? Do you understand your pharmaceutical drugs? Yeah, like, yeah, but they're taking drugs every every night.
And I'm like, you're taking drugs every morning. What the fuck? Like, how do you not see this? Like, what? Well, and so much of that is driven. Like, I mean, I remember being in in university and then also like working harm reduction at the same time and seeing over and over again, this framework of like the way that we see drug use is very much mapped across different types of privilege, right? So it's like, if you're drinking a seven dollar coffee from Starbucks, and then when you get stressed out, you take a benzodiazepine from your, like that you have as a prescription, right?
And you're and you're using all these substances. You're most likely you can map that person's kind of social location from the different substances that they use, right? Whereas somebody like I did a project at one point talking to people who lived in this very large park in Vancouver, and a lot of them are using meth. And I remember talking to this one guy and he's like, yeah, meth is great.
It lets me not worry about if I'm cold and it lets me like do stuff in the rain when I'm feeling uncomfortable and he's because for him, he doesn't have seven dollars to buy a Starbucks coffee and it's not going to help him do what meth lets him do. You know, social experience is so different, right? And and I think, yeah, with with working with plants and with fungi, you know, the more I come to realize that it's like we are in a bit of a fringe, fringe sort of social group, but I definitely see more and more what I would consider to be, quote, regular people being like, but I'm interested in this. And I just, I don't know who to talk to because my friends, my family, they think it's kooky and bizarre and out there that I would want to explore plants or fungi to help me. But they usually have an inner knowing and an inner calling that's like something else is possible. There are more options than what's being presented to me by a doctor.
And for whatever reason, we don't consider those prescriptions to be drugs, even though things like ADHD medications and, but yeah, in benzodiazepines, SSRIs, all of these things are having like really intense impacts on our body and can create really intense withdrawal. Yeah. And that's not to say that plants don't also have that.
They can also have that. That's a weird dichotomy we create where we're like plants are super gentle and they have new side effects. So it's like, no. We want to see all these things in their fullness to be able to embrace the real complexity. It's a complex conversation.
Yeah. And especially to remember that like all those pharmaceuticals, like where do they come from other than plants? Like, there's just such a such an interesting world that we talk about these things. And I think part of the reality is that we've created this medical model framework for the human experience and psychology, right? Where it's like, okay, you have an infection.
Here's your antibiotics, right? And now we're coming into the space of like trying to do the same thing with human psychology. Oh, you have suffering.
Here's this, right? And like that's not really taking into context all of these larger pieces that need to be considered when it comes to the human experience, because the human psyche is not necessarily like a cut or a bruise. Like there's more complex pieces to it than just like slapping on an antibiotic towards that, right?
And until we kind of like get that holistic model where all of our providers are able to have these conversations, then we're missing out on like important pieces of the healing process for people. Yeah, so true. And something else. And again, like this is not to say that.
Well, I'll just say it. What we talk about is, you know, grief and normal human emotions, like the spectrum of human emotion and how we in the medical model, like increasingly pathologized grief. There used to be this gap of time where doctors wouldn't, you know, they wouldn't diagnose you or prescribe an antidepressant if you had like lost a parent or completely like been in an accident and completely lost your way of livelihood. You know, these super intense experiences that we need to emot and we need to feel that, yeah, that that timeline has like shortened and shortened and shortened so much so that now it's just like, okay, your dad died, but here's an antidepressant. And yeah, so that's a lot of what we find ourselves doing in class and even in consults is like validating people's real human emotions and feedback we've gotten is they're like, oh my goodness, like I needed this so much and like I never, my doctor never valid how I was feeling. It was always just jumping to the diagnosis, to the prescription and how important that is. And not to say, of course, like what I was going to say in the beginning was that of course that can like impact our ability to function and if it goes on for a really long time and it's impacting our relationships and our work, like, yeah, maybe we need some help, of course. Not to say that, but also that it's okay to feel sad. Yes, exactly. So to close, can you help me?
Well, living in this time and this culture, like there is so much uncertainty and grief. collectively as well. Which is what makes me sad too. Like you know you come to me saying that you lost your you know your mom or someone important in your world and you come to a psychologist again because if I go through the insurance model I have to give a diagnosis. I have to diagnose you as having some sort of disorder to be able to receive services under that model right and so like I can have a conversation with clients about that so that it's less of that just so that they're aware of that process but it's also like okay so you're coming to me you know six months after you're and you're still right don't like that word you're upset naturally because you've lost someone important in your life but I have to find some sort of diagnosis that is like this is prolonged grief check check check all right here you go I don't like that I don't like that I think that's enacting more harm when we have to do things like that rather than hold space for the complexities and then I think that even goes a step deeper when people are depressed stressed anxious and I'm like well yeah you're living under a capitalistic structure where you are getting paid minimum wage and you don't know if you can go into at least in America into the ER and get care for yourself without it costing thousands of dollars so yeah when you get like me get staff infection and you're on Medicaid because you're a student you're like where the fuck am I gonna go and you're stressed about that that makes sense we live in a very like world that's not currently built for all people to be thriving and happy and so like I don't personally agree with diagnosing people at that point to be like you have depression when I would say the system's broken and you are suffering under that right or you're grieving naturally like a human you're understandably upset I'm like yeah you're upset for the right reasons and I'm with you like Jesus my god you know so I kind of am curious you know because you are pursuing this route of licensure Nicole like because I work in the birth world yes with contact with registered midwives same thing like I know there's this goal of healing and I know at some level they understand like their limitations and I almost kind of wish and you just said this like you talk to your clients about that I don't see that necessarily being I don't know risky for you and your license to like talk about how it works and explain you know like so you're coming to me this is the system I'm working under I have to do a diagnosis however this is how I feel about that and like maybe we can work together to get you the you know the care that you need without yeah putting so much weight on that diagnosis so I don't I I feel like that maybe there's room there in some of these medical professions where there's room for some honesty and transparency yeah it works and how the licensures work you know like for birth work like I often think about this you know like yes registered midwives are required in Canada to like offer certain interventions in birth like this list and they have to like offer things but what on zip happening is women often feel like coerced because they're asking and they've said no and then they're asking again and you know the intention maybe isn't coercion but that's how it feels to the woman or the person birthing so what is their room to explain like okay no I have my little list and I'm gonna have to do this remember you still have choice like you feel into your experience of what's needed and I'm just gonna check off my boxes because I need to you know I just feel like there's more room for that there absolutely is and that is how I've conducted every session that I've done therapy with where I'm currently training because that's kind of the model where they said like open up the discussion have it so like first consultation or a session I'm having with someone it it's literally like okay these are the symptoms we have to play the game what diagnosis feels accurate to you and having that open conversation about that I think that would be a good message for any sort of clinicians that are listening to this podcast to be able to like bring that conversation into the room to take away the power over dynamic that typically looks another person diagnosis them and puts them down to have it a collaborative conversation about you know this is what I see this is what I have to do under the system how does this feel for you because as someone on the other end who went through therapy and then got a diagnosis of like adjustment disorder which is reflective of having prolonged difficulty in a time period you know longer than expected aka you're struggling to adjust right and PTSD and other things but like how does that feel when you receive that oh I'm not normal because I'm still grieving in the system or I'm still like something's wrong about me and I think that causes more harm through that model of saying something's wrong about you when it's normal grief for the world that you're in thank you for doing this in your practice like I really do think that's something you know that can make a huge impact with clients like you said the collaborative like they're actually participating in their own well-being I think that's important yeah I think with diagnosing you know on the one hand it can be helpful sometimes for people to have a word they can use to refer to themselves to have a word they can Google or whatever to look up resources and stuff and what does this feel like for you like what does this show up as for you like when you say you have anxiety like what are the sensations in your body like what does that feel like for you like mentally emotionally spiritually I'm not even really sure mental health really exists I think that it's a reflection of our whole self so like not only our self like what our physical body is doing because our physiology has a massive impact on our mental experience but also like our spiritual world our emotional world the world that we live in socially and like globally you know and all of these things right it's like this idea that mental health can be represented by a little brain diagram is so disconnected from it's not just our brain like even just looking at the connection between our gut and our brain it's really just kind of opening up this idea that we don't have to live in these boxes where we're like I'm anxious and I'm this thing forever it's like it's like having the self-knowledge to be able to understand ourselves better and I think when we can do that we also have more empathy for others we're able to really see other people with more complexity and it makes our relationships healthier let's us set boundaries in a better way because we understand ourselves and other people better yeah yeah I appreciate what you said about there being a benefit to a label I think when I was first diagnosed with anxiety a couple of years ago it was helpful to kind of normalize that right in that way and so it allowed me and I think some other people compassion for yourself because you know there's it's not my fault there's other pieces here this is normal well it's normal that other people suffer with this but yeah the more I've studied psychology the more I've realized yeah one kind of what you're saying which is like we don't know how it's all connected but it is definitely connected we'll tell you that and we still don't know how it all works and that a lot of what our experience is is relational from my understanding right relational in terms of like the relationships you have in your life in terms of how you're connected to society and what society presents for you and all those sort of things so like so much of what I experience as anxiety was taught through you know my family dynamics of people who had never been to therapy never had any discussion of mental health my mom who's a domestic violence survivor or like all these pieces that she doesn't even realize and teaches me and then I enact with all my other partners and relationships and friends who kind of teach me how to exist in this space so much so that like it's not my fault for having anxiety right it's like it's a reality of being under the system it's a reality of being in the context of the relationships I've had that taught me how to live and how to process my emotions so it's like so much so that like yes we can have this diagnosis that's helpful to like give some sort of grounding in that experience but also like it's never our fault in that sort of reality and I think that's why I'm always writing that line of like helpful to have the diagnosis and then also like the ways that like at least from my own experience I internalize that diagnosis to be like I have anxiety so getting off my SSRI was a scary game because then I'm like can I do it what if I can't function off of this because I have anxiety and I'm crippled in this sort of way where I can't function without it I've been fine thus far but like that has been a journey to process it's a big journey it's a really big journey that most of us are experiencing without anyone to really talk about it with us in depth right almost everyone that we talked to about it it doesn't go that deep and I think with SSRIs particularly this has been my experience and I've noticed from talking to clients and stuff like this that it tends to be shared SSRIs in particular I find tend to allow you to function better in capitalism tend to allow you to be easier for other people to be around but they may not necessarily improve your internal experience of living on the planet and you know that I just, I believe we can do better than that. It's not to say that there isn't a place for SSRIs.
I think that there can be for sure, but I don't consider my mental wellbeing like, I'm easier to be around and I show up at work on time. No, like that's not enough. There's gotta be, it's gotta go deeper than that.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, and that, like you were saying, Nicole, like the word, the diagnosis can bring that sense of, also community, right? Like connecting with other experiences, but then yes, the internalization and the identifying and that it's always gonna be that way, that it's forever, that it's permanent. And I think that's also something missing within the medical model is like checking in with people, okay, you've been on this pharmaceutical for this long, you know, like things can change, our circumstances can change. When it comes down to it, this diagnosis is really just describing, you know, different sensations and experiences we have in our bodies, which we have access to that information.
And so we can know, you know, yeah, like maybe that might change. It takes experience, not an identity. Right. That's important to remember. Yes, absolutely, absolutely. And I think there needs to be more conversation about that too, right? Like all of these pieces were really just, we're still living in the old ages in terms of like psychology, spirituality, and how all of these things come together. So I think conversations like these that are opening up more discussion, I think about the nuance and really just the big question mark we have with a lot of these things, just remembering that we really don't know, if we can say anything as we still don't know.
And so like you guys have been talking about trusting your inner experience with these things and trusting the community that you can look to and connect with because a lot of this is just still a really big question mark. I think a lot of us will talk about, you know, how we're feeling in ways that make us uncomfortable. I'm feeling anxious, I'm feeling depressed, I'm this, I'm that, and I'll often say to people, well, how do you want to feel?
What is it that you want to be feeling? And then we know that certain tools can, not necessarily produce those feelings, but that can maybe give us a bit, a different access. And I think again, to look back to what we talked about in the very beginning, like exercise, mindfulness, all these things can also do that.
But we're lucky that we also have tools, pharmaceuticals, herbal tools, spiritual tools, fungal tools, so many things that can let us like kind of get a little bit closer like to feeling more joy or feel, because the answer to that question is often interesting, right? It's like, you get away from the idea of, I just don't want to feel anxious anymore. It's like, well, what is it that you do want to feel? And often, most often it's like, I want to feel more connected. I want to take the risk of feeling sadness so that I can feel more joy. I want to find my purpose. Like these are not things that, whatever supplements or tools or tinctures or whatever you're using, a tincture is not going to give you a sense of purpose.
Right, right. It's a deeper journey, right, of getting to know yourself. But I also think that a bigger toolbox is always better for helping people like, you know, be able to take those steps to do that deep inner work that is ongoing forever. Like I love having older friends in my life who are in their 60s or their 70s, and it's like, they can have that humility of like, it doesn't end, you know?
We don't get to a point where we're like, the work is over. Which is exciting and terrifying at the same time, right? Yeah.
Like, Spirulic, right? It's like, I think it's kind of the same thing, but it's getting, you know, deeper or closer to God or whatever, whatever metaphor works for you. Yeah, we'll be seeing what I'll be talking about on this show at 80 once I've had many spirals in the psychology world, right?
I'm sure it'll be very different. Yeah. But also not, right? Like I think in an essence way. Yeah. Essence will be the same, but the Spirul will reveal all these different layers and pieces and yeah, and I think that that's, that's what we're trying to do with having this conversation is like make room for people to have that Spirul and that sense of reflection and that sense of community with other people to understand that we're kind of all in it. Together. We're all in it together trying to figure this out.
Absolutely, absolutely. Frequently psychologists think they're not a part of that game and I'm here to say I am and we all are. Like you're saying we're all going through this struggle.
We don't get to just put on that white coat or that degree and be like, yep, I don't struggle with that at all. So yeah. I mean I love that. Your willingness, your willingness to be authentic and to not be so clinical, you know, not sort of protect your, I can understand why, why there is sort of a thought that that's maybe a more professional or boundary or whatever the case may be, right? But I also think having transparency about our struggles and because I think sometimes with us being herbalist, people can sometimes think like, you know, we have all this information and we're like these magical, mystical beings and it's like, no, no.
I had one of the worst mental health spirals during our class. Exactly. I'm literally using all these tools right now to help me show up and be here in this moment. I feel very blessed to get to have this conversation with people and to get to do it with JC because she's great. So cute. Yeah, and I'm glad that you guys, I'm glad that you both have each other than to like be supports in this, you know, and to look to one another and to grow together and to be doing good work in the community and helping other people in their journeys. It's very powerful. Thank you.
Yeah. Well then as we come towards the end of our time, I usually hold a little bit of space in case there was anything that you really wanted to say that we didn't get to. Otherwise, I have a closing question that I can ask both of you. I'm ready. I'm ready to close. Yeah, good.
Okay. Well then the question I ask everyone on the podcast and you can both answer is what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal? I think probably a longing to be seen and also a total terror and fear of that exact same thing. We call that vulnerability and it is uncomfortable. Yeah, and the craving of the intimacy that comes from that vulnerability, right? And I'm definitely processing something in my life like that right now where it's just like, it's like so beautiful, but so terrifying. It's so blah, you know? It's a lot, but I think it's also like, it's the core thing of the human experience. Yes, it means you're alive.
It means you're living when you're starting to dream enough that you feel that fear and to connect enough that you feel that fear and that... Yeah, one thing I wish people knew was more normal, that no one has it figured out. Yeah. No one has it figured out. This is what we signed up for, you know, as part of the human experience was all of it, all of it. Yep, both sides of the coin. We get the joy with the pain and we figure it out each day and we all have to figure it out in our own way because there is no right or wrong way to live in this existential void. And so like finding that out for all of us is a journey and a half, so yeah, anyone who's... I'm okay to need to be reminded of that every single day. Yes, yes, yes.
So whether that's affirmations from your community, a post-it note you look at every day in the mirror, like that doesn't make you weak, that's part of the human experience is figuring this out every single day. Yeah. What was lovely to have both of you and get to have this conversation, is there anywhere you'd want to plug for the work that you're doing so people can find you and connect with you? We have a link that is gonna be an ongoing link that we use to get people to sign up for getting updates on the next round of the class. So we'll give you the link so that people can share their emails with us. Awesome, I'll have all of that linked below so people can find you and then...
I'll give you a link to my contraception book. Yes, I do need that after today's conversation. If you enjoyed today's episode, then leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to your podcast and head on over to modernanarchypodcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I want to thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.