240. Stepping into Your Sensual Empowerment with Ally Iseman

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole. On today's episode, we have Ally join us for a conversation about following your curiosity all the way home to your pleasure. Together we talk about the politics of a full belly laugh, sexual ha situation in long-term relationships, and making up for the years of women's lost orgasms. Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.

I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. I'm Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, author of the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and founder of The Pleasure Practice Supporting Individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships.

Dear listener, oh, what a special episode to be sharing with you. Ali and I just hit it off. You know there are some episodes where you really get to that space, and this is one of them, and you can hear it in our full, full belly laughter that we have because it's connected to your ability to feel pleasure.

Right when we orgasm. There is so much. Breath. And that experience, dear listener. And so when you're laughing, right, it's similar, it's connected to that ability to be in your body, to really breathe and fully feel and, and, and, and this happens in community. And so it's such a joy to be connected with other leaders in this space like Ali, to have you here for these conversations that are rippling through your ears, rippling through your body.

And you're getting to hear all of this discussion around how to really step into your authentic pleasure. I mean, this is, the magic of revolutions are absolutely making up for years of lost orgasms because it's a completely different time and there is so much more work to do. This work is more necessary than ever.

And so, dear listener, I really hope that you're coming hard. I really hope that you're laughing hard, and I really hope that you have the capacity to cry hard with everything that is going on in the world right now. And please know that I will be here in this space with you continuing to explore and go deeper into what it means to be a pleasure, activist, and trust.

Pleased. Dear listener, trust that following your curiosity will bring you. All the way home to your pleasure.

Alright, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and free resources@modernanarchypodcast.com, linked in the show notes below. And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all my Patreon supporters, you are supporting the long-term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible to all people.

So thank you. And with that dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode.

Dear Listener, there's a space already waiting for you where you are invited to let go of every old script about sex and relationships and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure, empowerment, and deep alignment. I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real. Formation possible, and I'll be right there with you. Guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure and visit modern anarchy podcast.com/pleasure practice to apply.

And I will ask you the first question that I ask every guest on the show, which is how would you like to introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:05:18] Ally: Well, I'm Allie Eisman. I am the original AI, as I like to say. Sure. Um, I find myself these days finding a lot of fulfillment, um, in the position of being a coach for couples primarily who are looking to transition their relationship into some version of an open dynamic.

And that has enabled me to create content on a bunch of different platforms, which is also something I love to do, create courses, things like that. And just really aligning my, um, something that was very personal for me for a long time with my business life as well, which I found very fulfilling.

[00:05:54] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I'm excited to have you here on Modern Anarchy and get to hold space for your story today.

[00:05:59] Ally: Thank you so much. Yeah.

[00:06:01] Dr. Nicole: So where does the journey of expansive relating begin for you? Where do you first hear this word? What are your first reactions? Mine, were not good, so I'm curious. Yeah, we can get into that.

[00:06:13] Ally: But yeah, my journey began long before I heard any of the words. I'll tell you that much. Sure. The words came later. I wish I had had the words. Sure, sure, sure. I now have a word like compersion that I can integrate into telling my, you know, origin story, if you will. Um, but I experienced compersion and I thought it was jealousy because it would show up during those periods where I was told I should be experiencing jealousy.

So this must be what jealousy is. Sure. But it feels really good. So I don't understand why I didn't really get like the bad rap. And then, you know, I, I was what I, what I call a serial monogamist for a, the first 30 years of my life. Right. I was only dating me at the time. I was closeted in every way. Sure.

And I would be in the relationship for about the same amount of time. It would end. I'd be single for about the same amount of time, and then I'd get to the next one, boom. And the pattern repeats. So I'm a nerd. When I see a pattern, I'm like, Ooh, like what's, what can I do here? Let me change the variables.

Mm-hmm. And so I was like, let me be single for at least longer than you know, I've been before. Let's see what's on the other side of that. Right. And the answer is all of the shit. So that began my personal journey, my personal development journey, personal growth, all of that. Still got into a few more, um, monogamous relationships, but was at least starting to get in touch with what my curiosities were, at least sexually.

Yeah. And so bringing into the conversation like, oh, like could we play with like a woman? And so it generally would settle on, yeah, we can have a threesome with another woman. Didn't manifest until what became ultimately my last monogamous relationship where we really had the conversation about what would it be like to explore connections with other people.

This person is on the road a lot. As a professional, I would join him when I could, but wasn't always able to. And it actually came from me like encouraging him, connecting like, I want you to feel. Because I enjoyed that. I knew, I loved hearing about previous partners experiences and other things like that, so I wanted to sort of yes.

And that, sure. I didn't have words like polyamory al I'm not, and any of that stuff, right? I was just like, this feels good. Let's explore this. Unfortunately, that person didn't have the same. Experience around that as me. And again, we didn't have any of the tools, any of the frameworks, anything. Right. For what, you know, transpired.

Transpired. And it ended up blowing up in our face. Yeah.

[00:08:31] Dr. Nicole: Classic. Classic first attempt.

[00:08:33] Ally: Exactly. Classic. The implosion. It did affirm that it was real for me though. And I, I think I was very lucky in a lot of ways. I, I didn't want to, um, it, I, it helped me understand that this is real for me, but I didn't want, you know, what I call any more emotional casualties on my conscience.

Mm-hmm. So I was like, if I'm gonna explore this, I need to explore this on my own for a good amount of time to really understand what this even means. Yeah. Like what does this say about me? Who am I in the, like, what is this? Right. And so I did that journey for quite a few years on my own and then, you know, started exploring different relationship dynamics, different, you know, spaces within the sex positive world, things like that.

Um, and it's been. Almost a decade now at this point.

[00:09:13] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. What a psychological journey. Woo. We're gonna It continues. Yeah, exactly. Anyone who says they're done, I'm like, sit down, figured it out. Sit down. Uh, the universe will sit you down at some point with that kind of confidence. You know what I mean?

I know. Um, yeah. It was so fascinating when I recorded with Dr. Jolie Hamilton, who did a lot of research on gel. Yeah, yeah. Jealousy and non monogamy to have the conversations about jealousy being erotic, right? Mm-hmm. There's so much phi to that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's that space of fear and I think when you can kind of move past that, you start to feel that level of individuation and you see your partner has separate from you and having their own life and own experiences, and that being so incredibly erotic and often not a space that I think gets a lot of airtime.

[00:10:02] Ally: Yeah. Well, I think it's a very, I mean, it's a very uncomfortable space, especially when you're first exploring it. There's also so much social support for this is wrong, avoid this at all costs, da, da, da. Also, somehow simultaneously it means you really care, but whatever, we'll avoid oxymoron for now, but I think there's a connection to like root childhood, like that experience when you realize your parents are just people, they're separate from you, your primary caregiver, like that's a foundational seismic shift for a human being and there's connective tissue between that and that realization of, oh, right, my.

Partner is another person. They have other experiences. It is not taking from me,

[00:10:43] Dr. Nicole: right.

[00:10:43] Ally: For them to be that way. And it's, it's very, I think it's connected to some really primal stuff that we get very, you know, comfortable avoiding as adults. But that's where the growth is. That's where the expansion in all areas of life is, I found.

[00:10:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. It's all of the years of classical conditioning, right? If a, then b, if you love me mm-hmm. It's monogamous, right? Mm-hmm. If you have, if you're extremely jealous and possessive, that means you really love someone. It's like, wait, hold on a second. Where did all this come from? Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

And if we can, you know, really slow down to understand that there are other cultures around the world currently as well as other cultures historically, that didn't have these same beliefs. And so they didn't have the same levels of classical conditioning that we did. So it's not like this is inherently an innate sense of, I, I think I get frustrated when people say like, no, monogamy is innate.

Monogamy is this, it's like natural. What's natural. Yeah. That conversation. It's a cultural practice. Right. And I support different cultural practices, but we need to talk about as. A cultural practice, not an innate biological thing. And so I think that my hope would be that conversations like this can create more space because I think our freedom is found when we're able to choose which relationship style fits us, right?

Mm-hmm. And right now, the, the alternative, something like non-monogamy, expansive, relating, every single person will be like, it doesn't work. I could never blah, blah. I don't really know if that's freedom. I think it's very different to look at both and say, you know what? This is actually what I choose. I could see a life down that I could see a life down this, and I choose this path.

It's very different to say, no, that never works, right? And all of that. Mm-hmm. That doesn't feel like freedom and informed choice to me in our current structures.

[00:12:28] Ally: Well, you can't say yes or no to something that you don't even understand. And so many people are in relationship structures that they think they chose, but.

They don't really even understand the relationship they're in, what that means. They're actually saying yes to a lot of what I call compound meanings. A big one is, you know, love, sex, and commitment as synonyms. They're not, yeah, they're ingredients in a relationship. Monogamy equals commitment. Monogamy equals love.

Like you said, all of that. What they're saying yes to is, you know, I want companionship. I want something consistent and ongoing. All of these things are available. In multiple relationship dynamics, but the assumption is they only live in monogamy. So when we understand what's actually underneath the, like large labels and we start parsing through all that, what are the ingredients I want?

What are my actual needs here? What structures support that I now can choose those. Mm-hmm. That's super empowering.

[00:13:21] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. And an important part about this is women's desire and eroticism. Oh, by God, the amount of cultural narratives on what woman quote unquote want is absurd. And so I'd love to dive a little bit deeper into your story of eroticism and what pulled you towards this.

Because there's just honestly not enough spaces where we can be like, Hey, as a woman, I wanted to have sex with multiple people, and that's actually what compelled me to do this. You know, like we mm-hmm. Even like in this space, I hear people talk about love and multiple relationships and, and changing the storyline for women.

Is so, so, so needed. So I'd love to hear about your eroticism.

[00:14:03] Ally: yeah

[00:14:03] Dr. Nicole: what pulled you into this?

[00:14:05] Ally: Absolutely. I think something that was profoundly shifting in my life was understanding what I call sensual empowerment. Mm-hmm. Like my grounded experience of my sensuality and that's connected to my sexuality. It's not implicitly just that.

True. Yeah. But it's a huge foundation of that. And that has complete harnessing that understanding where that, you know, how that shows up for me, how I'm connected to that has impacted how I show up in every area of my life. Right. The way, you know, from the bedroom to the boardroom. Yeah. Like literally. So for me, movement is a huge part of it.

When I started exploring different types of dance and, and quite frankly, fitness even. I think a lot of that exploration really culminated and came together when I started exploring pole dance as fitness initially.

[00:14:46] Dr. Nicole: Cool.

[00:14:47] Ally: Yeah. Yeah. But I went to a studio that really prioritized, um. The lived experience of that.

It was less about how do I look? Performance choreography. Like, yes, we learned all the technical and stuff like that, but it was really motivated by what do we need to move through our bodies with this movement? What are we connecting to? And like it was okay to cry through a routine. Yeah. Or to just to have the routine exist entirely on the floor if that's what it needed to, you know, that level of like connection.

It broke through so many layers of resistance and fear and discomfort. And I was able to really cultivate a sense of ownership over my physical self, but also how my energetic self related with that. Mm-hmm. How I just move, how I walk down the street. Yeah. How I put my clothes on in the morning. Yeah. How I drink a glass of water, like all of that.

I can find sensuality in all of that. Mm-hmm. And it's so, it's so fulfilling. And then. You know, a huge part of that too for me is I'm very curious. I'm just an innately curious person. Mm-hmm. So there are, I always like to express this or, uh, share this one memory from my childhood. If you understand this memory, you understand me fundamentally as a person.

Sure, sure. So there was this specific moment. When I came to understand that there would not be enough time in my lifetime for me to go everywhere, meet everyone and see everything. Yeah, same. Yeah. And it just literally you had this one, it broke my heart. Yeah. Like I was just like, but then why? Like, what is this?

What is. And that curiosity carries through everything. So, you know, it's a, a zest for novelty, but not from, like, I don't mean that in a surface way. Like it's a deep drive. I'm So how do you live? How do you experience things? I love talking to people and that curiosity translates sexually as well. What are all the different ways my body can experience pleasure?

What are the different ways it does that with different kinds of people? Yeah. How do I know what I like and what I don't like if I don't at least try? Yeah. You know, and, and I find that out. You know, I'm now, I'm at a point in my journey where, you know, I don't recommend starting this way, but like, I find my boundaries by smashing into them head on.

Sure. And I go, oh, I do not like that. Or She, my body did not like that. We're not gonna do that again. Or, we're not gonna do it that way. Or like, you know? Yeah. Totally. That, that's really fun for me and uncomfortable. Yeah, totally. But like, I love that, again, that curiosity coming from like, oh, do I wanna try that?

I have before. Sure, let's go for it.

[00:17:18] Dr. Nicole: For sure, for sure. I resonate with the running into the boundaries, like, uh, trying to go to my first play party and like crying before I left with my partner, I was like, I wanna go, but oh my God, I'm so scared. You know, that's, uh, that's when you find out, you know, uh, I do psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, so I always parallel a lot of those together and it's like, you know, you, you gotta move at the speed of trust and take a mm-hmm.

A slow and, and small first dose. You don't need to like hop in. No. Although I've thrown myself into the water many a times and said sink or swim, and, uh, definitely gotten some muscles from that experience. Yes. So, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, but yeah, I, I too, I remember being, um, in my undergrad degree and studying English and I broke down crying that I wasn't gonna be able to read all the books in the world.

[00:18:04] Ally: I've had that. I was like, but how do I pick which, oh God.

[00:18:08] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So that desire, that curiosity, the exploration, and I really appreciate what you said about, um, exploring sexuality with different people because mm-hmm. I, I think one thing we need to rewrite, especially with attachment, is how attachment can be different, right?

Depending on who you're with. Like, Ooh, we can deep dive into that. Yeah, because it's so annoying. The field of psychology is like, well, you're either anxious or you're avoided at this, or distort. It's like, oh my God, isn't that nice?

[00:18:35] Ally: We just fit into these little boxes.

[00:18:37] Dr. Nicole: I know. I know. That's all that's there.

Totally. And it's like forgetting that the attachment is actually between two people, and so maybe if you're with someone who's really avoidant, it pulls out your anxious side. Maybe if you're with someone who's really anxious. It pulls out your avoidance side. Right. And vice versa. And all the fun culmination of ways that, uh, having multiple relationships for myself and my clients.

Mm-hmm. We can see that come out so quickly and I'm like, okay. Mm-hmm. We have time to rewrite that attachment theory, but also a sexuality. Right. We think we have these like very defined ways of who we are, but then, and some of that is true of course, but then when you interact with the different people, you start to realize like, wow, this person brings out this side of me.

Mm-hmm. This person makes me wanna play in this way. This person does that. And I think that's a really expanded state to start to integrate all these different parts of yourself with multiple people without shame. Mm-hmm.

[00:19:29] Ally: A lot of celebration.

[00:19:30] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:19:31] Ally: Absolutely. Mm-hmm. I think curiosity is the antidote to things like shame or fear.

Again, not that there's anything wrong with like, oh, I'm experiencing fear, but there's like a. You know, helps the medicine go down, I guess. Mm-hmm. If you can hold that same thing with curiosity, it just changes the experience.

[00:19:49] Dr. Nicole: Right? Absolutely. And so there's so many messages around women and sex that are inherently shameful and shitty in this patriarchal society.

So I'd be curious if you were to take me back to your journey of first kind of unpacking that and some of those shame filled messages, what were some of the things that were difficult at the beginning?

[00:20:07] Ally: Well, here's a fun fact. I had a promise ring growing up of my own accord. Stop. I still wear it as a reclamation now.

Oh my God. Mine is somewhere. In Los Angeles. I live in London now. Sure. Um, somewhere in my home. Um, I don't know where that came from. Yeah. I just, society, I have no idea. I wasn't specifically raised that way. I Interesting. Wasn't raised with, uh, comfort around sex or sexuality. Like it was very much when signs of puberty started, it was like they, here's the, you know, what's happening in my Body book and VHS tape that my mom sat me down and watched with me and just gave me the book and walked away, kind of like thing.

[00:20:43] Dr. Nicole: Figure it out.

[00:20:44] Ally: And Yeah. And it was, um, you know, it was a lot of discomfort and there was just, yeah. Nothing at home about that. Mm-hmm. And so I don't know if it was like, okay, this thing is scary and I can lock it away in this box if I create this structure on it. I don't, I honestly have no recollection of where it came from.

But I was just like, I am waiting for marriage. Yeah. I, I have this ring. Look how cute I am. Yeah. And then I'm in college and, um. I'm examining like, what is marriage? Do I even want to get married? Right, right. Like is the, and you know, I was nowhere near the like, shame and what is this? And around that. I was just like, do I even want the thing?

And if that's the thing, I'm very logical. I'm very pragmatic. So I was like, well, if I don't want that and that's connected to that, maybe I don't need. And so, yep. My college boyfriend and I were together for I think all in three years. We had been together for a year and a half, I believe at this point.

We were, had both not had sex before. And so I was like, this makes a lot of sense. We love each other. Like, this is new for both of us. Like, do you want to do this? Right, right, right. And I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful. That was my experience. I remember it vividly as briefly as it was. And, and then, and then unfortunately my, my next experience was non-consensual.

Mm-hmm. Not with this person, but I'm very grateful that that was like, it was very much a choice. It was a very thought out choice. Would not have changed a thing.

[00:22:01] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:22:01] Ally: Very grateful for that. There wasn't, I wasn't conscious of shame. Around it. Mm-hmm. I really owned that choice. Like I had a, this is so not pc, this is not gonna hold up well over time I had a group of girlfriends in college.

We decided that our names like the Spice Girls, but we were like the sluts. So we each had our slut name. Mm. There was, you know, da da da. And I was wannabe slut 'cause I was the only virgin in the group. Sure. And I fucking loved it. I was like, yes, I'm, yeah. That is me. So there was an interesting pride around that and then the journey, finding that, and I think for me again, the physicality was really important.

'cause I'm very cerebral. I can get really trapped in like ideas and story and all of that. Sure. And it wasn't until I started connecting my body lived, you know, energetic experience that all the stuff started coming up and the tears and the awareness of the stories that were playing in the background that I didn't even know.

[00:23:00] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:23:00] Ally: Because I learned, like I remembered. Kind of my changing relationship with my body. Even like I was one of the guys growing up. All my friends were boys. And then my, my boobs came in real early. Sure. Like out of nowhere, like overnight. And all my friends started treating me differently and looking at me differently.

And I remember throwing the big baggy sweaters on. I just wanted everything to go back to the way it was.

[00:23:22] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:23:22] Ally: And then I switched all the way to the, over, over to the other side and I realized, oh, if I wear tight things, I can get what I want easier. Like, yeah. This is fun. Totally. And then. The sort of messaging you get around that, and I just sort of put it in my body and I Hi.

It there. And so, yeah. Not to sound redundant, but again, that movement really Yes. Opened it up and kind of just connected all these different, all these different pieces for me.

[00:23:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. I always talk about, um, women's voices back in the sixties. Right. They were like, hi, my name is Nicole.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm sad. Yes. What kind of orgasms were they having back then when you're holding so much in your chest? Funny, they weren't. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Realistically. I know, right? That's why, that's why I feel like every time I laugh, like full body, every time I take an exhale, oh, Billy. Yeah. I'm like, that's political.

Yeah. Like, people need to hear that. Like, ha. You know, like, wow.

[00:24:18] Ally: Can we, this is topical. Go for it, baby girl. Mm. Nicole Kit the vocalization in that film, that was, I loved. That choice her, her like quote orgasm in the opening. Mm. Versus you, I know, I'm gonna try avoid spoilers, but like Sure. Probably people have seen at this point, but like then the gutter, like when she really pleasures herself Yeah.

And you hear the difference. That's the first time I've ever seen that reflected on screen. Sure. And the other pivotal like, female pleasure moment that was like, it, it hit me so much. I had to stand up and like walk away. Yeah. From like the screen. It was the show, I think it was the first season of the show.

Morning. The morning show. Mm.

[00:24:57] Dr. Nicole: I haven't seen that.

[00:24:57] Ally: And it was, it was Reese Witherspoon's character. She, um, pulls, you know, she was on a date or something, whatever. They end up in the alley behind the bar that they were at. Yeah. And they're fucking, and she comes and it's done. Mm. She comes.

[00:25:14] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:25:15] Ally: And it was over.

Yeah. And I was just like, wic. Wait, pause, wait. Yeah. What? Just I didn't even know. I had never seen that. Gosh, you know what, like I was like at this point I have had, at that point in my life, I had had a lot of, I had just never seen it. Totally. And I didn't even know I had never seen it. Oh, right. Sex can finish.

When she is done, it can be done.

[00:25:37] Dr. Nicole: Yep. Absolutely.

[00:25:40] Ally: Just mind blowing.

[00:25:41] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Yes. That's reminded me of my last orgasm that I had. I was like, my male lover was like massaging my face and then massaging my body and I was like, you can mass massage my clit and then massaging my clit and then, um, penetrating me with his fingers and then having me go to full orgasm, and then that was it.

Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Beautiful. Now, past versions of myself would've been like what you been given back to him.

[00:26:06] Ally: Yeah.

[00:26:07] Dr. Nicole: Hysterically.

[00:26:08] Ally: Yeah. Which like, it can be a conversation. Yes. Perhaps there is something he's interested in. Yes. Or perhaps that's what he was interested in.

[00:26:15] Dr. Nicole: Right. Exactly.

[00:26:16] Ally: And yay, everybody wins.

[00:26:18] Dr. Nicole: And I love the flexibility. Sometimes it is reciprocal. Some days I just help him. Right. Some days he help. Like that freedom in ways that I would've never, like again, there's so many boxes that we live in. Yeah. And I think until you kind of get out of them and then you look back and you say, wow, I was so restricted there.

Hence why we're so passionate about helping people. Because when you get out of it, you're like, oh my God, I had so much tightness in these ways. Yeah. And so many unconscious things that I didn't even realize. Uh, my story is similar to yours and like, I, I grew up very conservative purity culture. Very religious.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Religious school. Monday through Friday, church on Sunday, youth group Saturday. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the purity ring was, you know, all a part of that. When I had sex, it was a choice. But afterwards I sobbed uncontrollably 'cause I felt so broken that no one would ever love me because I'm damaged goods.

Oh

[00:27:07] Ally: yeah.

[00:27:08] Dr. Nicole: And then after that, my next experience sexually was, um, non-consensual. Right. And so then that sends you down a deep healing journey of what the fuck is sex and how do I figure this out? And so mm-hmm. It's fascinating to see these, um, journeys of repression and trauma and then what sort of passion that really ignites within you to heal and then therefore to help other people because we know how many people are still simmering in all of that pain and hurt and lack of language to really name their desires.

[00:27:37] Ally: Yeah, a hundred percent. And when you live in a culture that's, I mean, let's call it what it is. We live in a rape culture. Yeah. It's acceptable. Like it's just a part of things. You, we grow up preparing ourselves like it's understandable. Why. You know, heteronormative sex is seen as he's getting something.

Yep. And like, what a shame, because so are we. Yeah. If we're empowered in that it, to use your word, that the idea of reciprocity, even I invite an even deeper opening of that. Why am, am I the only one getting something when I orgasm? Why is he the only one getting something when he orga right. Is this not something we're both contributing into a shared experience.

Mm-hmm. I get a lot out of my partner's orgasming. Yep. I love that. Exactly. It brings me pleasure. When I have sex, I get to have sex. Mm-hmm. I'm, no one's getting anything from me. Like this is, I'm winning in this. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I just, I wanna open up that conversation so much more. Why should I give you this, honey?

You're getting it too, hopefully. Right? Right.

[00:28:42] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. These questions about what is reciprocity at its heart, right? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. What is the prize? Is the prize mutual pleasure and enjoyment? Or this taking and like you're saying, yeah, so much of our patriarchal understanding of sexism, you know, like we will hear this in media and other things of like male patriarchal perspectives of like, I fucked her, I got hurt.

And it's very objectifying. Right. And I, mm-hmm. I always bring up the fact that is always dark. I mean, you're in London now. In the United States. Marital rape was not illegal in all 50 states until 1993. Because before that, listeners, you were property. You were property, and you could be raped by your husband.

Right. And it's like, it's not, it's not rape if you're just property. Exactly. You don't have a say.

[00:29:27] Ally: Yeah, yeah, let's let that drop in.

[00:29:30] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. It's like how much silence do I have to hold for that to sit for people? 'cause that's really recent, you know, that hasn't even, even 50 19 93. Yeah, exactly. And so if we don't think that that is a part of the water, that we are all swimming in a part of all the quote unquote research that we have right now.

Yeah. Oof.

[00:29:50] Ally: Wake up. I mean, do we need to talk about the fact that what's, I don't have the percentage off the top of my head. Luckily it's starting to shift, but there's so much like ground to gain on like just the medical field. Medical science is based on male anatomy. Yeah. All the treatments, everything we receive as non-male bodies or for male bodies.

These are different bodies. We have different bodies. Yeah. We are operating in different systems and we are being forced into something that doesn't serve us. Mm-hmm. Because there's no other option. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's barbaric. We are so, we are capable of so much more. Yeah, and we're starting to, we're starting to absolutely, as, as much tumultuousness as there is, and I don't wanna discount that there is a lot of unrest in the world.

It's really important to like really zoom out. Big picture, we're in one of the most peaceful times in human history. We have the capacity to really advance ourselves in a lot of areas, and this is one where I really hope we do, if we can create more focus on pleasure as a driving force, like moving towards something that feels good rather than away from something that feels bad,

[00:31:03] Dr. Nicole: right?

Mm-hmm. Right?

[00:31:04] Ally: Like what's a, what's a sex positive culture? How do we move towards those things? Yeah. It's such a different way of motivating action, conversation, connection, relationship building businesses, everything shifts when it's. Towards pleasure. Pleasure. Towards positive experience. Yes. And net positive.

Mm-hmm. Rather than trying to avoid treat symptoms. Right. Running towards versus running away from. Right. Completely different paradigm.

[00:31:31] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. I have a lot to say to the field psychology on that one. Yeah. And it's so interesting to think about. Of course, our desires are shaped within our cultural context.

Mm-hmm. And so when we live in the society that is so repressive around sex, particularly in our white western colonizer society, 'cause again, there are other spiritual worlds and cultures that were not so repressed around sexuality. Mm-hmm. The Puritans. Wow. They really did a number on America. Um, and so when we sit with that, when I look back at my own journey, there's so much of it that I, I could have never fathomed having this amount of like liberation and freedom.

Like there's a bit of a failure of imagination now what. Did happen, would I would be in these long-term relationships, deeply in love with the man. 'cause I hadn't unpacked any of my queerness deeply in love with his man. So in love, so clear as day as that, and then also realizing that my body was no longer wet.

[00:32:28] Ally: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Now it's not responsive.

[00:32:31] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And I, I am here for the discussion of responsive desire versus spontaneous. Mm-hmm. And building it. Mm-hmm. And also, man, my body was not responding and I was just beating myself up inside of like, how can I love this man so much? And my body's not responding.

That's really what even further perpetuated my research into this. And gosh, if I could just look to my younger self and be like, Hey girl, I need you to know that the research shows that women's desire drops off foster in long-term monogamous relationships than men. Mm-hmm. Nothing is wrong with you.

This is actually a research backed phenomena.

[00:33:07] Ally: Mm-hmm.

I, yeah,

[00:33:13] Dr. Nicole: I like that.

[00:33:14] Ally: That's the whole sentence.

[00:33:15] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. I'm, I'm sure I would've been like, so what does that mean? Then? Where do we go? And I think that's still where we're at as a society right now, is we know this, we know all these pressures, we know all of that. So like, what does the future look like of women's liberation now that we have more access and more privilege?

Right. I remember reading Untrue by Wednesday, Martin, and she had written in there. Yeah, yeah, I know, right? Like she had written in there, um, that women started cheating or like we could at least document this, that women were cheating as much as men once we had financial independence more towards the 1970s.

Right. Like we have no idea what women's sexuality is capable of.

[00:33:52] Ally: No idea. Autonomy is intrinsically connected regardless of gender. Autonomy is directly connected to the ability to even explore and be curious. If you have no freedom, you have no freedom, period. Like you have to have the ability to move freely within society to really explore yourself.

[00:34:11] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:12] Ally: There's too much at risk. There's too much you, you can't, it makes perfect sense that there were those limitations of self-contained. Right. But God, I cannot, my, I think about the past and just like, no. I mean, maybe I would've never explored this. And you find your ways to suppress it. Just like I would've lost my mind.

Yeah. I have a lot of desire.

[00:34:33] Dr. Nicole: Me. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:34] Ally: And I'm sure I'm not a phenomenon.

[00:34:36] Dr. Nicole: No.

[00:34:38] Ally: Documented that it's just it, man. And I agree with you. It's like we don't, this is tip of the iceberg stuff. Yep. We're on right now. It's very exciting. Mm-hmm. But we all, that's the thing is like, we all win. We're, we're a social communal species with more freedom.

There's more freedom. Like we all suffer under patriarchy. Women's empowerment, women's liberation, women's freedom. Their, their, our ability to explore ourselves in all the ways. Men win too. Mm-hmm. Everyone wins. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's just more is more, I guess is what I like to say too, in regards to relationship, pleasure, exploration, all of that.

[00:35:18] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Because like you, I believe that we're inherently communal and loving and kind when we're not in resource, um, complex situations. I think we've seen a lot of that where there's a lack of resources and then we compete, right? Yeah. But we, we do live in a world where we have access to much more than we think, right?

And so this is a new time in all of human history where there is much more access to these things that we cannot have to compete as much. There's enough resources in the world, maybe not to uphold our, like capitalistic white American like. Speed of production and like fast fashion and all that sort of world.

That's a whole different concept. But when, you know, like another episode for that. Yeah. Climate change. Wow. Um, but just generally speaking, I do believe that we are all like kind and inherently good. And so when we talk about like liberating sexuality, that vision for me is like. Good sex is when you care about the person, when you're present with that person, when you're embodied, when it's mutual, right?

And so when I see that world of normalizing sex and pleasure, it's also a world of normalizing, embodiment and care for multiple people.

[00:36:25] Ally: A hundred percent. Like I value my pleasure and my experience equally with whomever I'm sharing that with. Otherwise, why are, why are we doing, what are we doing? Yeah.

Yeah. I'm curious about you. I'm curious to see what we create together. Is there gonna be a new color or flavor of myself or just experience in general that I'm gonna get to have from this? Are, are things gonna be revealed for you? What a gift to be a part of that with something else. Yeah, totally. Like, oh my goodness.

[00:36:53] Dr. Nicole: Totally. Absolutely. And so I'm sure you've probably experienced then, like me, like when I first started having sex with multiple people, just feeling like a slut and not in a good way. Mm. And not just like, you know, pick a play or, um, you know, one time experiences, but having sex with multiple people all at the same time.

Like trying to build multiple relationships. Mm-hmm. Uh. It was just a lot to psychologically go through that. Like, I'm not a bad person to want sex. Mm-hmm. With all these different people. I'm not a bad person to want sex more with this one partner than the other, you know? Mm-hmm. Like all of that is a lot to unpack.

And again, like we have books like Jessica Fern, but like. On Poly Secure, but she doesn't talk about sex enough. I'm just gonna put it out there. And when she was on the show, we talked about that of like, good, there needs to be more discussion about the whole psychological sex part and attachment, because that's a whole thing to unpack.

Mm-hmm. And so I'm curious for you, like, what was your journey like with that and unpacking some of these messages around like the Madonna and the horror complex

[00:37:56] Ally: Yeah. You say was like, it's the

[00:37:57] Dr. Nicole: yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right. You're right, you're right. But I, I want,

[00:38:00] Ally: which chapter am I in right now?

[00:38:01] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. Exactly. But I, okay. I always, for like, I'm always in that there's more to go. There's more to go. And sometimes I forget to acknowledge I, I have climbed some mountains are gone down the spiral. Yeah. You know, so like, yes, this chapter, but also the last, yes. Yeah.

[00:38:17] Ally: Yeah. I think, um, a lot of what you said.

Absolutely resonates for me of like, you know, what does this mean about me? I think there were elements of like, I'm always gonna be a recovering people pleaser. Yeah. To some extent or another. And so there were elements of like, you know, what do they think? How is this gonna affect what they want with me?

Dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. All of all of those things. Um, do I have to, you know, subscribe to certain labels now because of this thing? A hundred percent. I mean, I was literally subjected to myself to being in a social circle that literally called ourselves the sluts. Mm.

[00:38:49] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:38:49] Ally: And I was the wannabe slut.

Like, yeah. You know, there's, I, I'm a writer, so I love language and like the idea of reclaiming language. I, how censored do I have to be? Not at all. R Okay. Wanna, I, I'm in London, so this word carries slightly different weight here. I'm still navigating that, but I fucking love the word cunt. Mm. Mm-hmm. Sure.

Love it. It's a powerful femme forward word. I love it. I wanna use it. I wanna reclaim it. It is a good thing to me. It is. I. Fucking, I wanna be a cu. Mm-hmm. Like, yes. Mm-hmm. And I, what's, is it, it's attributed, I think, to Betty White, that whole idea of like, what do you mean don't be a pussy? Mm. Like a pussy takes a pounding and keeps on going.

It's the balls that you look at 'em the wrong way. Right, right, right, right, right. Sure. But it's just like reclaiming language, you know? What do those words mean? What are the, the connotation of like, oh, I'm a slut now. Like, yeah, I'm a slut now. Yeah. I'm a consensual slut. Like, I love it. Uh, just redefining that and not being, not seeing language as barriers, but more as, you know, tools in my toolbox.

Or if someone is gonna say, yeah, you know, that makes you a slut. I'm like, cool. What does that mean to you?

[00:40:02] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:04] Ally: I dunno what that means to me. Like, I'm not worried about it. What does that mean to you if you're using that language? It's an invitation for conversation and

[00:40:10] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:40:11] Ally: People don't treat language like that.

We're very, we can be very, you know, combative or defensive and. I try to find the question as much as possible. If there's, especially if there's like a label or a label that comes with a lot of cultural baggage, I'm like, great, what does that mean to you?

[00:40:26] Dr. Nicole: Yeah,

[00:40:26] Ally: tell me more.

[00:40:27] Dr. Nicole: Yeah,

[00:40:27] Ally: tell me about what it means for me to be a slut.

[00:40:29] Dr. Nicole: Yes, absolutely. One of my favorite songs is called Cunt. It's like CVNT is how they spell it. And I'm just like, yes. Like it's very fiery, passionate. It feels good. It rolls off the tongue. Yeah, exactly. Like Pussy by Regina Thomas Tohow Tohow the book. Um, but yeah, there's so many words to reclaim with that.

And so I'm curious too, like I'm sure as you were going through this, there must have been like a shift in community that kind of normalized this. Oh, gosh. And yeah, exactly. Yeah. 'cause there's, yeah. 'cause we can't, we cannot walk this alone, you know what I mean? There's no way to walk this alone because without that shifting in community, you will hear that word slut and you'll be like, this is bad.

This is bad. What would my mom and dad think? What would my. Right. Whatever, whatever. All yeah. Yes. Whatever circle. What would they say at work? What would they say at this? Mm-hmm. And so for me, the biggest thing has been shifting my community to have all of my close friends in reality practice, some form of expansive relating.

And then that made me feel super normal, where I, I forget that like what I do is not normal, but like, thank God for my nervous system. So I'm curious, like, what did that look like for you?

[00:41:39] Ally: I think like, for better or worse, I've always been somebody who's found myself in like what I call bridge spaces.

Whether it's like around my veganism or around, you know, practicing conceptual non-monogamy. I've always found myself. Talking to people who aren't in that camp and able to translate, if that makes sense. Sure. Like, I'm not triggered necessarily, I'm just, I'm curious again. And so that's not to say there weren't a lot of growing pains and like feeling like an alien with a horn in the middle of my head.

But like the, it, it wasn't like, okay, everyone who is, you know, in a monogamous relationship, I can't be around people Right. Who are cool with monogamy. Like, no, I think as long for me, I look for qualities of people of course. 'cause there's also plenty of ironically, close-minded people in seemingly very progressive spaces.

Yep. And I'm not interested in that. I either. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I'm a yes and person. I'm like, what can I learn from you? You're different than me. Cool. Like, tell me more. Yeah, totally. So I think there's absolutely, I sought out space, like I wanna, the beginning, early in my journey when I was like, okay, this is real for me.

I wanna explore, you know, what does it mean that I wanna play with other people, but I still want, you know, core relationships. And, uh, I started going to play parties. I was like, okay, universe, I know there's spaces out there. Yeah. You know, I can't be the only one that feels this way. Yeah. Like, show me the way.

So I started doing all the things that I'd never done just getting on apps. I'm gonna date myself. But like, this was still in a time where like, that wasn't cool. It wasn't like I'm on an app, like, you know, I was like, I'm just gonna just swipe under the table.

And, but I was meeting people and I was open to connections and I was just like, yes.

Like, you're a different person. I've, I had no, there was no type. I don't know that I have a type. I was just like, you're a new experience. Like mm-hmm. You're different. How do we do that? And it just kind of came about organically with the one of these connections we're like, you know, closing out our time together.

And he's just like, you know, there's this group I think you might be interested in connecting with. Yeah. Like, I'll put you in touch. And it just kind of grew from there. Sure. And, and, you know, I'm interested in something, like I said, I nerd out. Totally. I dove in and met as many people as I could. Events, started hosting things.

I've now been hosting events like play parties, things like that. Sure. For almost a decade. Like it's, I love creating these spaces. I love being in these spaces. For me, I also need time not in these spaces. Oh yeah. It's very balancing balance. Very, very, yes. Well, not a balance, um, but it is very important to have enough meaningful connections that are Right.

Reflective, whether it's reflective in a manner of like, oh, you see these things the same as me, or reflective in a, a. You'd see them differently, but you accept and celebrate that in me. Mm-hmm. Cool.

[00:44:14] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:44:14] Ally: Like that's what I look for in my community. Mm-hmm.

[00:44:18] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. My mom is still Mormon, so I can always get a dose of like the other side.

Anytime I'm like, Hey, holy underwear in the whole thing. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, it's fascinating. Yeah, fascinating. Family trips.

[00:44:30] Ally: Culture's amazing,

[00:44:31] Dr. Nicole: isn't it? Yeah. Isn't it? Yeah. Her daughter went somewhere else.

[00:44:35] Ally: I wanna talk about that though too, because you, you've brought that up a few times, which is important too.

Yeah. I, I call myself wander lustful, like, I love to travel and explore, like we talked about. We both had that shared experience and our childhood. I was like, what do you mean I can't go over? I think that's been a huge part in this for me too, is being able to be exposed to so many different ways of living.

Loving, relating all over the world currently. Like I was in, um, I was on Easter Island, Rappa, Newi, and that's a communal culture versus an individualist society. Yep. Like Western society is, you know, you build everything yourself and you're unique. It's about all the communal is we share things. What's the best for the group?

Raising children is communal. Yeah. Whether you're mother, father, whatever dynamic, the, the village raises everyone. And there's, look, there's pros and cons to both, but that's the norm there. And deviating from that is the strange thing that they're having trouble accepting and understanding. Yeah. So really experiencing that in real time, it's such a gift.

Mm-hmm. And it's like constant, it's like exposure therapy in a lot of ways.

[00:45:35] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. That's where I get really upset as a therapist. 'cause there's so much, I don't, I don't even feel like update is the word. I feel like there's so much to dismantle, not just update, but fully dismantle because mm-hmm.

When I'm going through my training and it's taught through this very like monogamous, um, nuclear family model and anything outside of that is wrong. Wow. Need to dismantle tivity. And then also like we exist in a world where like, yeah, America's very individualistic, very capitalistic, no support for family rearing and it's supposed to be done in a nuclear family.

And then if the mother is supporting, you know, what we put on top of her a diagnosis, postpartum depression. Are you like, sure, sure. Don't get me wrong, I see that lived pain thing, all that very real and I wanna honor that. And also, what the fuck is this system?

[00:46:27] Ally: That's a very, that's something, yeah, go ahead.

Oh, sorry. I don't, I don't wanna cut you off. I think you're talking about something very important. It's, and I appreciate you for saying like, no, there is also very real pain here. Absolutely. As someone who I was diagnosed with depression, um, 10 highly overmedicated as a child for Dre, like, there, there is, they had, I mean, we know so little now.

We knew even less than Yes. You know, I can't be upset. It was what it is. And who knows the damage it's done totally. But I'm doing pretty great, so yeah. Love to see that. Congrats. But yeah, all that to say, I've looked back at that now and I take into consideration the context of the environment that I was growing up in.

Yes. And I've had this conversation with my therapist who really helped me look at this in a new way. And I, I am a, i, I stand in this viewpoint very firmly now. I was having a very reasonable emotional reaction considering the environment that I was in. So it was, I chemically depressed. Or was I actually responding in a very healthy way to a very unhealthy environment that blew my top off, like my lid completely open and changed how I looked at all of that.

Because I still have the story of, you know, I'm depre, I deal with depression, and I go through these things. And yes, I do still have moments of that, but I always look now at what's going on, what else is going on? Am I like broken inside or am I actually responding to way too much happening or like a seismic shift?

And I haven't, you know, titrated that enough and you know, done enough coping that I, that I can handle it. Like I, you have, I have to look at the full picture now rather than jumped to that label that allows me to kind of avoid any responsibility in it. Yeah, take the whole context. No, actually I love.

That little girl for responding that way. She was tuned the fuck in to her needs and they were not being met in very harsh ways. Yeah, and that was very reasonable, right? That she felt that way. And it's a shame that she got that messaging. But guess what? I get to, she gets to ride along now and, and learn.

New understandings around that and I get to give her all of that now that she didn't get then.

[00:48:37] Dr. Nicole: Right? Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm so glad that you can see that. And this conversation can invite people to reflect on that because I'm always talking about, you know, we gotta take accountability for our change and also point the arrow upwards at the systems.

And so when we exist in a very individualistic society, it's gonna look at you and say, you. You, you are the problem, right? Mm-hmm. Not the system and the fact that we're always trying to keep ourselves safe, and so it makes sense that you'd be responding this way. It's like that famous quote, the um, it's no sign of health to be well adjusted to a sick society.

And so when someone has postpartum depression, I'm not discrediting any of the pain of that. In fact, I'm actually really looking at it and say, based on our society, yeah, you don't have parental leave or mother leave in this society that's protected in America, of course, depression. Right? And also that's not a reflection of you individual, but rather the society that we live in.

Exactly. And so I wonder when my pussy is not responding to this like monogamous relation, like how much of that is also my body in indicating to me that something is wrong with these systems. My body is literally not getting excited about this sexual experience anymore. Like why was I trying to force myself into this for so long?

[00:49:50] Ally: This is where I think choice is really important when you, when we're not educated about all the different, for example, all the different relationship dynamics that are available. Because there may be plenty of women in your position who are like, no, I want to be more responsive to this partner. I'm choosing this dynamic, so I want, I would like to learn how to shift this potentially within this context.

When it's a choice, fuck yeah. Yeah. When it's, I have to, 'cause this is the only option and there must be something wrong with me. 'cause it's not in the, that's what I have issue with. It just, it sounds like what we're talking about, that context mm-hmm. Is so key, what you're talking about in society with, you know, you're the problem, you're depressed, you have an issue.

Yeah. You're, you're in a monogamous relationship. It's not working for you. You're the problem. You gotta figure that out. Maybe there's some stuff going on. Maybe there's also a whole world of relationship design that you haven't explored or been educated about, so you don't even know your own higher your own needs as far as your hierarchy of exclusivity emotionally or sexually.

So you don't know how to design a relationship structure that actually supports you with integrity.

[00:50:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:54] Ally: Instead, you keep trying to fit yourself into these boxes and you're being told you're the problem. If you're choosing that box because you've been educated about everything that's out there, and that's the structure that makes sense to you, that you want knowing everything that's out there, then yeah, you work within that context.

Mm-hmm. Outside of that, it's not a fucking choice. Mm-hmm. Exactly. You're not consenting to that.

[00:51:16] Dr. Nicole: Right. Exactly. Exactly. That's how I feel when people say like, oh, I don't wanna do psychedelics. They melt your brain like they'll destroy your life. I'm like, okay. Like some of the research, you know, it's not, I don't feel like that's an informed no.

When you say stuff like, like that. 'cause I'm like, that's fear motivated. Exactly. And so that's a lot of what we sit in around relationships is fear motivated because anything else is wrong or et cetera, et cetera. And so I hear what you're saying about, until we have that informed consent. Is really what we're talking about is informed consent and therefore the embodiment to choose.

And the reality is too, like even just like, um, habituation and long-term relationships happens in poly too, you know?

[00:51:52] Ally: Yeah, yeah. Hundred percent. That's our, our human body is built for homeostasis. Like it seeks homeostasis, but that doesn't support desire. Mm-hmm. And novelty, the, in the same way that novelty and distance and all those other components do.

And it's perfectly healthy. I hate the word, we can talk about that word another day. I hear. Yeah. But it's perfectly, um. Contextually acceptable to, to want both of those things and to again, have the tools at your disposal to understand, oh, I can design a relationship that supports those things. A, that's so empowering.

[00:52:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:27] Ally: Oh my God. To know that you are showing up and choosing this relationship, I know that I only wanna be with partners that are actively choosing to be with me. Yes. Not out of obligation. If that starts like create, like, I love you, please go. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's like, I'll deal with my profit you did like, but like actively choosing me every day.

The acknowledgement that we have the choice to leave, to change our dynamic, to do whatever at any point, rather than live in an illusion of like, oh, this label or this piece of jewelry, or this piece of paper, somehow guarantees are. Deciding to no longer have choice. Like it's just, it's bananas to me. I, I feel like I went on a tangent.

Bring me back. Cheese. No,

[00:53:08] Dr. Nicole: I mean, this is all related. This is all, this is where you hear the, uh, like the comedy sketch about the ball, and Shane, ah, oh my God. My husband. My husband is just raw, you know, it's like, yeah. Leave.

[00:53:20] Ally: Yeah. Do you want, is that what you want? So you're, this is what I always say is really you're getting, if you're in it, you are getting something out of it, right?

So let's explore what that is, because you educated or not, you're making a choice. So let's look at what is here for you, because you, even at a base animal level, if you're not getting something out of, there's not some sort of need being met, you're out. Mm-hmm. So what's the need that's being met? Oh, you're, you're, you know, satisfying the story that you're a victim.

It feels very gratifying to understand that you're, and you have this endless barrage of material that supports that This is great. Yes. Do we wanna keep that alive? Is that something you're committed to? No. Great. Now you have something to work with. Like, that is such a key. That is such a key thing in, in so many of the areas that we're talking about right now is what are you getting out of this?

Because you're getting something. Mm-hmm. Might not be, you might not like it when you, when you figure out what that is. Yeah. But you're getting it.

[00:54:13] Dr. Nicole: Right. Right. And that story might be normalized within your community. Right. That's why it's a, that's why it's a standup comedy skit.

[00:54:19] Ally: If I don't have a husband to complain about exactly what are we gonna talk about?

What are we gonna like, oh my god, after skin class. Like we can't what, you know, like to complain about the kids. I have to complain about the husband. I have to talk about the newest diet. I have to like, what are, what's the material? If we don't have that, do we have to like. Be intimate with each other or like come up.

[00:54:38] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, no, yeah, I know. And so if I were to sit in that circle, I can feel that lack of harmony, that lack of resonance, because I'm like, why are, why is your life so unhappy? Why are you constantly completely, do you have any pleasure going on? You know, like switching that script to find circles of people that talk about pleasure and all the different variations, but like we're saying, are actively choosing those lifestyles and enjoying them rather than like just complaining and harping.

That's a very different world in a very different circle.

[00:55:10] Ally: And I think you keyed on something too that's really important, is without even realizing it, when you're in that story cycle, you're supporting the idea that, yeah, women don't get pleasure. Yeah. You don't get to have pleasure. Yeah. So I like to follow up that question with like, do you get to have pleasure?

Are you allowed to have pleasure? Oh, he's never, he doesn't satisfy. I was like, do you get to have that? Are you allowed to have that? Because right now you have the story that is really supporting the idea that you don't. So do you believe that you get to have pleasure?

[00:55:38] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:55:39] Ally: Yeah. Because if you did, I have a strong suspicion this would not be the circumstance, might still be with the same person.

Yeah. But this would not be the circumstance.

[00:55:49] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. And I think that that's where it's so important to have models of what is possible. Why I appreciate you sharing your voice here, right. And having this platform where you can share this voice. Because you know in America right now, not in London, but in America, we've never had a female president.

So you know how many little girls are not dreaming. I know. You know how many little girls aren't currently dreaming of one day being like, oh, I could be president 'cause we don't have it. Yeah. The second we get that, little girls are gonna be dreaming around the world being like, I could be the president one day.

But until we have that model, it's really hard to imagine it. And so when we're thinking about desires and the narratives and what we're shaping for our lives, we have literally no other model publicly. I think when you get deep into some of the history, some of the spirituality of other cultures that has been really written over or destroyed at different points in the history, you know what I mean?

Yeah. Um, then his, the historical edits. Yes. Then you can see the models and we're like, oh, okay. There. But like that model's not on your main platform, like screening stuff right now and, and content and movies and stuff. Even like we were talking about baby girl earlier. Right. Where is my model of the female CEO?

That's not just the sub, but the dom. Mm-hmm. Still waiting.

[00:56:59] Ally: I'm still waiting. Well, and just not to like Harve on that film too, like it's a, it's a movie. It's not a course. Do not watch that movie please. And take notes. That's not what film is for. Like go to a professional, like one of us who has the resources for you.

Do not use film for that. No. However, I will say first se, first time I've ever seen Dom aftercare represented as well. Sure. On screens, which was like, again, mic drop moment for me where I was, oh, oh my God, I didn't even know I hadn't seen this.

[00:57:29] Dr. Nicole: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I think that's where I usually sit with things like this where I'm like, even like 50 Shades of Gray, like horrible representations.

Oh fuck. And also Dan, that sold so many copies that it is expanding people's concepts on bdsm. And I think we can have that cri progress. Yes. That critical lens that's like not just 'cause even in the very like progressive spaces, some people just like, we need more, we need more, we need more. And I'm like, o, can we acknowledge just a little bit of progress even though yes, we need more.

Like, hey, a little bit of good things are happening here. When you look at it, if you take a step, step progress over perfection. Right? Like a hundred years, a thousand years. This, this is still really big. Yeah, I get it. More, more, more. But like acknowledge where we've come from, folks.

[00:58:09] Ally: Yeah. Like I'm wearing pants.

Do you know how big that is?

[00:58:13] Dr. Nicole: Well, we've talked about sex and we didn't go to jail during this episode. Should I be, you know, like a hundred years ago, Margaret Sanger got arrested for talking about contraception. So like, Hey, I, I use contraception. I fuck. You know what I mean? Like, here we are. Sure. Do like Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. You know, not fearful that I'm going to and

[00:58:33] Ally: I enjoy it.

[00:58:34] Dr. Nicole: Yes, yes. And I orgasm hard. Yes, yes.

[00:58:37] Ally: Many times.

[00:58:38] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. Exactly. And so there's a lot of joy in the ability to name those things. And I think sometimes we get lost in the continual push, and that's where activists get burnout. And we have to be really con like conscious of that.

And so like there is a balance to that of seeing it all and finding the pleasure to be able to like really change these movements. Mm-hmm. We can't just keep pushing so hard that we just burn ourselves to the ground of seeing that.

[00:59:01] Ally: Thank you for, I think this is such an important conversation. Yeah. And it's also kind of goes back and ties into the communal nature of our species, like there's different kinds of activism and it's really important. I used to judge myself talking about shame. Sure. Oh, I'm not enough of an activist. Whether, again, whether it's veganism, sex, positivity, you know, non-monogamy, I'm not. I'm not on the front lines. I need to be put. I'm not built like that. My nervous system, I'm not useful in that environ.

I am much more useful having those bridge conversations, talking to the people who don't understand from a curiosity standpoint, tell me more about why you feel this is wrong. I wanna learn from you where you're coming from. I don't get triggered by that. I get very triggered with frontline, like it's too much for me.

And I used to say like, oh, I'm not doing enough. And then when I started understanding, we're all doing our parts. I'm no use to anyone. If my nervous system is fried and fractured on a constant basis, where can I contribute most sustainably? And understanding what my activism looks like, what my sensuality and sexuality looks like.

Really understanding, again, how I connect, what it feels like in my body to do those things in a way that's sustainable and generative for myself. Mm-hmm. Was huge. It removed the shame.

[01:00:16] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. We all have our corners of the thread that we're mm-hmm. Working on Right. And making change towards.

And I think that's where we can trust that the personal is the political. And so when there are so many systems that are impacting us, um, and, and preventing us from being able to show up in the ways that we want to, we can also trust in the ripples of the work that we're doing when we slow down to have a, a conversation with someone in our community who has beliefs that might, you know, be hurtful.

Like if you have the capacity to have that bridge conversation. Not to say that you have to throw yourself at the face, like into the hands of those people. And there, 'cause Lord knows I've had a lot of comments about my life and my slut hood. Right. But if I have the capacity to slow down and do some work there, like, that's political to be like, yeah.

Like you said earlier, what does the word slut mean to you? Mm-hmm. Can we get curious about this together? And, um, that's a hundred percent political and each one of us can do that in our day-to-day lives. You don't have to be a therapist or a frontline worker to do that sort of change. And we need all of.

Um, alive and vibrating with that to really make this large change

[01:01:17] Ally: a hundred percent. All the different flavors in the ice cream shop need to be there.

[01:01:22] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I'm curious if you were to kind of take a deep breath and connect back to the previous versions of yourself, is there any advice or wisdom that you would share with her given where you're at now

[01:01:36] Ally: in general or in regards to any specific theme we talked about today

[01:01:41] Dr. Nicole: in terms of following your pleasure?

[01:01:43] Ally: Hmm.

It's gonna be uncomfortable at first, and then it's gonna be really good and then it's gonna be uncomfortable again. Yeah. And then it's gonna get really good. Yeah. And learning the trust. For me, this is a constant, actually, I would say in a lot of areas that we discussed today, is trusting the wave pattern.

That it's not this, like I, I know we're not gonna have a visual here, but, um, I'll try and describe what I'm showing. Sure. So this was a, a defining moment for me as well in life. I, I wish I could remember who gave me this, really wish I could, but someone in my life at one point mm-hmm. Said, I'm holding my, my hand, my arm out, um, uh, parallel to the ground in front of me, perpendicular to my body.

And they said, this is what most people think balance is. You know, this flat level surface. This is balance. And they said, balance is actually this. And now I'm rocking my arm back and forth, kind of like a seesaw surf, surfing. The weight balance is about staying. It's like, it, it is, it's like a surf.

Watching a surfer on a surfboard. Navigate the way that's balance. Balance is active, not a fixed point. So understanding that, you know, things aren't linear, they're not, it's not up, up, up. They can be it, it can be, you know, net positive, moving that direction, but there's gonna be those peaks and valleys.

Always ongoingly. It's not a mark of failure or anything. Yeah. That discomfort is always pointing towards growth. It's worth moving through. It's worth maintaining balance during those times. And trusting, again, trusting the wave pattern I call it, of mm-hmm. Life. Mm-hmm.

[01:03:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's so important.

'cause we live in a world where it's like up, up, up, up. More, more, more, more, more, more, more, more. It's always more, more, more, more, more, more. Right. Exactly. And that's not really how nature exists. It goes through seasons, right? Yes. If we really think about it, like winter to fall, like, right. So all these different seasons that we go through.

And so trusting more of that, I, I definitely can resonate with that, of, of feeling times like I've. Lost my pleasure of like, where did it go? Mm-hmm. Why did I fall off from it? And then kind of starting a deeper spiral that made it even worse. Right? Yeah. Versus like, oh

[01:03:57] Ally: yeah,

[01:03:57] Dr. Nicole: it will come back. And always understanding, I, I view pleasure as like a form of meditation and therefore a practice, like when it's fallen off, like there was always the pleasure of my breath, like if I really like mm-hmm.

Uh, wow, okay. Like, that's always available to me. Mm-hmm. So, like, I don't know where my brain is going right now, but I can come back and, and feel that again. And, and when we meditate, we talk about it as a practice. Like there'll be days where your mind is fully, fully spinning. Right. But you can get back and start again.

Yeah. It doesn't have to be this like, oh, I failed and now it's over and I'm never gonna find it again. And Oh God. Um, and especially around sexuality, for me, it's just shifted and evolved so much over the course of my journey coming from originally like. Being very, very attracted to men who were like on the path to become pastors.

Because I was like, damn, look at this guy centering Jesus in his life. I'm so excited to submit to him as his future wife. Like that got me off because that's what I was taught. Whoa. And like la that is not what I get off to now unless we're doing a consensual play scene in that, which can be really fun with my trauma.

You know what I mean? Oh yeah. Um, but like, so it's just changed and evolve and I, I think that's something I wish I could tell my younger self too, is that like, your pleasure will evolve and there'll be days that you feel like it's so far away, but that's okay. Take that deep breath. Yeah. It'll become clear again, you know?

[01:05:25] Ally: Yeah. It's like noticing it versus attaching judgment or assessing it in any way. It's just like, oh, I notice I'm not experiencing as much pleasure. I'm not drawn to pleasure as much that's happening. Huh? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. No assessment. It's just there. Yeah.

[01:05:41] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. That's hard for me as a, you talked about being a nerd.

As a nerd, that's really hard for me. 'cause my brain's like, what's going on? Yeah. Let's figure this out. Yeah, exactly. Like there must be something, it's like, yeah, no, taking a deep breath. And then also thinking about. Connecting to your pleasure as a muscle, right? We talk about neuronal pathways, and the more you practice that pathway, the more that neuronal pathway fires and becomes regulated.

I think that connecting with your pleasure is very similar. It's a muscle. Mm-hmm. So if, if you've never expressed your pleasure, if you've never centered your pleasure, it's gonna feel. Scary. And when you do that, you're activating a part of yourself that maybe has not been tapped into, and we often have rebounds.

Wow. So you can have a bit of that rubber band pull Oh yeah. And then contraction. But the more that you keep flexing that muscle, the stronger and stronger it gets. I'm sure you can speak to that in your own life of like, your pleasure is forefront and all that you do now because you've centered it

[01:06:35] Ally: well, and I know what it feels like when I'm not.

Yeah. Sometimes it takes me a minute, I'm not gonna lie. Sure. I'm like, why am I so miserable? Oh, yes. Right. None of this is bringing me pleasure. Right? Yes. So do I need to be doing different things or doing need to be doing what I'm doing differently?

[01:06:53] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[01:06:53] Ally: Something needs to change.

[01:06:55] Dr. Nicole: Yes. What are your signs for a listener who might not be as in tune with being off in their pleasure?

Like what do you see and notice?

[01:07:04] Ally: I think I get a lot of, uh, you know, symptoms of anxiety, I would say is a big one. Racing thoughts. Yeah. Having a harder time focusing concentration, um, being, um, impatient, uh, shorter, uh, yeah. Being impatient, more irritable, things like that. Uh, everything just is shorter and more compressed.

I don't feel like I can languish in anything.

[01:07:28] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:07:29] Ally: Whether it's, you know, languishing and I don't know the answer to this.

[01:07:33] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:07:34] Ally: Or languishing in, wow. I just achieved something I've been working really hard on. Yeah. Languishing in any, is is that emergence or that urgency to get to the next thing, whether it's quote good or bad, whatever I'm going through, there's no, um, there's no integration of whatever the experience is.

Mm-hmm. That is my biggest key of like, ooh. I am not motivated by pleasure at all right now. Mm-hmm. Where can I find it? And I start little. 'cause I, I don't go like, okay, I need to clear everything. Yeah. I'm doing nothing but touching myself for the next 24 hours. I mean, sometimes, no. Yeah. Uh, but I like little, I'm like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take my lunch in the garden or like, I'm gonna chew very whatever.

I'm gonna change something here. I need a pattern interrupt is a big tool that I use in this area. I'm gonna do something differently, motivated entirely around and only for pleasure. Mm-hmm. Right now it's five minutes, you know, five breaths depending on the day, you know? Yeah. Something, I'm creating this container for this.

Mm-hmm. Just so I can remember this relationship. Right. And then you just a little bit more and a little bit more habit stacking pleasure. Yes.

[01:08:39] Dr. Nicole: That's what it becomes. Yes. The mindfulness of pleasure to connect back to it and start that meditation again. Honestly.

[01:08:46] Ally: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. 'cause it is, everything is, everything's practice relating is practice.

It's what you said earlier about that habitualization of, of long-term relationships. It's easy to do that. But if you remember relating, it's, it's a relat trip, I like to say. Oh, it's an ongoing practice. Yeah. Like you're on a journey. Do you wanna turn off a different exit than before? Like you can, you, it's, it's an ongoing practice.

You are practicing relationship with someone. Mm-hmm. And if you can come at it from that viewpoint, a big one that I hear, I love this from, especially, you know, couples that we finish each other's sentences and I just go, isn't that called interrupting? Like, you don't actually know what they're gonna say.

They might have a higher probability based on past experience, dah, dah. But you have no idea what happened to them that day. That may have totally changed their, let them surprise you. Yeah. Enable them to surprise you. Beginner's mindset. Right. With all the things. It's lovely to have a long-term relationship with someone you feel like you know.

Oh yeah. In and out, and you trust that is wonderful and juicy and let them surprise you. Yeah. And I don't mean like unpredictable in an unsafe way.

[01:09:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:09:53] Ally: But what, you know, what can you invite with that beginner's mind, that curiosity.

[01:10:00] Dr. Nicole: And, ugh, it's so hot. Like I love simmering in that of like this other person, as a whole person with a whole universe of thoughts in their big, beautiful brain.

And even if I spent, oh my, every single moment. Every single moment together, which is not possible, but if I did, I still wouldn't even know all of the intricacies of their complex, beautiful universe of thoughts. Mm-hmm. Because of just how we live as humans as two separate embodied humans, like mm-hmm.

And so when you really sit with that of like this person before you, it is, that is erotic to me. I'm like, wow. Yeah. Damn. Okay.

[01:10:37] Ally: Like I get You wanna get real nerdy, go for it. I like to remind myself very pragmatic, like, so we've agreed that this color is green. No. We've agreed that this range of light refraction is something we call green.

They are seeing something different than me. Right. Their version of green, and it's within a range that we've all agreed generally is green. I have had a turquoise Prius sea for about a decade or so now. Mm-hmm. And there are camps of people in my life that call my car green, and there are camps of people in my life that call my car blue.

Right. This is like really incredibly interesting to me. Sure. So remembering mm-hmm. When I'm feeling stagnant in a relationship or something. Getting like really, um, getting really nerdy about stuff like this. Yeah. Of like, oh, like. He said he put his blue shirt on and like we, this is blue, but it is, he is seeing something very different than I'm seeing right now.

That's fucking wild.

[01:11:35] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. The integration really. Yeah. Slowing down to be present with it. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, well it's been so fun to have you on the podcast. I'm sure we keep going back and forth for hours, four hour episode recently. Yeah, exactly right. Listeners will tune in. I'm confident.

I'm confident. Uh, so before we close, I will take a deep breath with you.

Nice. And then I will see, are there any other things you wanna share with the listener? Otherwise I can guide us towards a closing question. And I'll also give space for you to plug all of your stuff at the end too.

[01:12:13] Ally: Thank you. I think, yeah, if you can really come, curiosity has been such a gift in my life.

If you're noticing that tightness, that moving away from that, just like. Reaction. I mean, within safe circumstance, get curious about it. Because I think there's a lot of, uh, we've merged unsafe and uncomfortable in western society especially.

[01:12:37] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:12:38] Ally: And really getting clear on where that line is for you is super important.

Curiosity can help you do that. And within that space, there is so much growth and expansion in every area. Yeah. And it benefits every area of your life. This work has been emotionally fruitful as much as it's been financially fruitful, as much as it's been familially, like everything shifts.

[01:13:02] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:13:03] Ally: I encourage curiosity on all fronts.

Absolutely.

[01:13:07] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely.

[01:13:08] Ally: And backs.

[01:13:09] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And, and the pleasure is not hedonistic in this like, negative way. I, I honestly feel like pleasure is also pain, the suffering to really feel mm-hmm. For me, like pleasure is, it is sweet. Yeah. Feeling all of it. The light and the dark. Yeah. Because without that contrast, you don't have contrast.

[01:13:28] Ally: You don't get to pick which feelings you, yes. You pick how deeply you feel. Yeah. And then you're going to feel deeply, all of them.

[01:13:34] Dr. Nicole: Yes. We cry hard and we come hard in this space. Yes, exactly. And sometimes at the same time. Time. Yep. And those are radical healing spaces.

[01:13:45] Ally: Hell yeah.

[01:13:47] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah. Well, if it feels good to you, I'll guide us towards the closing question.

[01:13:51] Ally: Beautiful. Yeah.

[01:13:52] Dr. Nicole: Cool. Okay. So the last question that I ask every guest on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:14:03] Ally: Oh, normal. What a word. Anarchist check. Can I say, I say, can I say common or share?

[01:14:11] Dr. Nicole: You can say whatever you want. The fact that you question today, I always joke is the anarchist check when someone goes normal,

[01:14:17] Ally: normal?

[01:14:18] Dr. Nicole: What, what, what is that? Define that. Yeah, exactly. Exactly, exactly. So you pass the secret test. Yeah.

[01:14:26] Ally: Get my badge in the mail. Exactly. Fantastic. Um, it was more shared. Um, I would say something that is, I find to be very common both in my personal journey and in my work with clients that it's okay and very common not to know.

That is a great space to exist in for as long as you need to.

[01:14:52] Dr. Nicole: But Ally, I want to know, I, I'm telling myself this. I like

[01:14:57] Ally: type A, one of the class like you're telling me. Of course, this has been like a lifelong lesson. The patience with the I don, I mean, oh, it's to not know, especially as someone who, you know myself personally as someone who educates coaches, things that like I, that pressure to like have the answer.

And sometimes the answer is, you know what? Actually I don't know right now. You know, I'm, I'm gonna sit with that or I'm gonna investigate that, or, you know, whatever that is. But like a lot of people don't know. In a lot of different areas at different times. Yep. And that goes kink, you know, sexuality, relationally, professionally, there's a lot of, I don't know, in this world.

Mm-hmm. A lot more than we let on.

[01:15:43] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[01:15:43] Ally: It's okay. 'cause the world is still functioning to some extent and there's a lot of, I don't know. So this feeling that I don't know is wrong, bad, detrimental, let's let go of that. Mm-hmm. There's a lot of, I don't know. And it's okay.

[01:15:59] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And so finding the peace in that because, oh man, let's sit with me.

Because the second, I don't know, I'm like,

it's like, whoa. It is hard. Very hard. And even when I'm Oh, me too. Yeah. Yeah. And when I'm training other therapists, um, I've had the joy of like teaching psychiatry residents who had no training in therapy at all, which was like, so fun. So fun. What a challenge. Um, and they'd be like, well, what do I do when I don't know what to say when they've given me all this trauma and this grief and I just truly don't know?

And I'm like, can you say that?

Like, wow, this, you've shared so much that I'm at a loss for words and I don't know what to say next. And they like, they like shake it the thought. They're like, no, but I am that doctor. I must know. And I'm like, I think it's okay to be human. And I often feel like we most heal when we are human with people, which is often that I don't know how to sit with this.

I don't know what this means. I don't know where I'm going. And that's okay. Well, I think, yeah,

[01:17:00] Ally: it's the difference of of, I don't know when we're fucked. Yeah, exactly. I don't know. And we're gonna sit in that Yeah. Together. Being an example of, I don't know, is okay. Because if, yeah. If you deliver that with, you know what you've said all this stuff and like, I don't fucking know.

Right. Right. That's unsettling. Right. You're like, but if it's like, yeah. Wow. Those, those are a lot of big feelings you shared with me and I'm not quite sure how to respond like that. Are you comfortable sitting in that? I don't know. With me.

[01:17:26] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:17:28] Ally: That's a totally different response. Absolutely. With the same context.

[01:17:33] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. And so therapist, Taylor, coach, or not in our community, a dear listener. Mm-hmm. Like we need more of that space. When you're supporting people, when you're with people, it's okay to say you don't know how to show up and be in that space with them. I honestly feel like that is the most transformative thing, is to be with another person, to be present and not try to fix and have all the answers.

I feel like we find most of that healing when we're, we're holding hands with that person saying, Hey, I'm with you. I'm with you. I don't know what to do in this moment, but I'm with you. And that being so therapeutic. Very, yeah, very well. It was such a joy to have you on the podcast today. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Yes, thank you. I'm sure all of the listeners are so curious how they can connect with you. Where can they find your stuff?

[01:18:21] Ally: Well, I applaud that curiosity, as you know. So follow that curiosity to passport to pleasure.com, and that's the number two, passport to pleasure.com. That's my inclusive relationship education platform.

I provide tons of content across YouTube, Instagram, substack. I want you to have the tools and the skills that you need to build the relationships that you want and deserve. So I create a lot of content around that. I have resources on my website, courses, things like that. It's, it's really me. I'm a real person.

You can reach out. Um, I do coaching as well on a case by case basis. Um, so yeah, I mean. Passport to pleasure on all the platforms, and I look forward to hearing from you and, and seeing how that, uh, curiosity journey unfolds.

[01:19:08] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Beautiful. I'll make sure to have all of that linked in the show notes below dear listeners, so you can find that.

And again, thank you Allie, for coming onto the show today. My pleasure. Yeah. If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast, and head on over to modern anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode.

I wanna thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.