252. Exploring Your Sexual Pleasure with Dr. Frankie

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Dr. Frankie join us for a conversation all about releasing shame and embodying your erotic power. Together we talk about stretching into your zone of the erotic learning to tap back into play and the importance of lube. Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.

I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, author of a psychedelic jealousy guide and founder of the Pleasure Practice, where I support individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships.

Dear listener. Stretching into your pleasure practice. This is something that I'm always talking about in my pleasure, liberation groups that I run each year. We have the sexuality group in February and the relationship group starting at the end of August, and especially in the sexuality group where we're unpacking how to have more pleasurable connection to your erotic self.

One of the biggest things I am teaching in that space is about the neuroscience, right? We know that what you focus on becomes your reality. And so if you're wanting more connection to your pleasure, more connection to your eroticism, your ability to play, what we know is that practice makes perfect.

Quite literally. We have different neuronal pathways in the brain, and the more you fire and think that sort of thought, the easier and faster it becomes your reality of what you think, right? And so when you're wanting to tap back into pleasure, dear listener, I really wanna invite you like, Hey. In this moment, what pleasure is around you?

Is it the sound of my voice? Is it something that you can see as you're listening to this podcast? Can you feel the pleasure of a deep exhale? Ah. Because pleasure is all around us, right? There's so much. When we slow down to notice and be present with the moment, and of course there's so much going on in the world, there's so much going on in our minds, and so it is a meditative practice in that way, and I really wanna invite you to build your pleasure practice.

This is something that I have a full module for My Pleasure Liberation course about the art of building a pleasure practice, you know, you have to be present for that. You have to be able to learn how to play right. And dear listener, wherever you're at, I just wanna invite you to know that the most beautiful thing about building a pleasure practice is that it will change and expand over time.

There may be days, weeks, months, years even, where you're not connected to your pleasure, but the brain. Is malleable. We have neuroplasticity the way that you think and feel can absolutely change. And it is so, so incredible that I get to bring amazing doctors right onto the show to talk about that and to really invite you to know that change is possible and that pleasure is absolutely possible.

And I am so, so delighted that you are here learning and growing and expanding in your pleasure practice each week 'cause you tune into the podcast.

Ah. All right, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and free resources@modernanarchypodcast.com, linked in the show notes below. And I wanna say a big thank you to all of my Patreon supporters. You are supporting the long-term sustainability of the show, keeping this content free and accessible to all people.

So thank you. And with that dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love, and let's tune in to today's episode.

Dear Listener, there's a space already waiting for you where you are invited to let go of every old script about sex and relationships, and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure. Empowerment and deep alignment. I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real transformation possible. And I'll be right there with you guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure and visit modern anarchy podcast.com/pleasure practice to apply.

And the first question that I ask each guest on the show is How would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:06:01] Dr. Frankie: My name is Dr. Frankie, and I'm a clinical psychologist, a board certified sex therapist, and the CEO of a national matchmaking firm that focuses on lgbtq plus folks.

[00:06:14] Dr. Nicole: Amazing. So delighted to have you in this space today.

Thank you for joining me and all of the listeners.

[00:06:20] Dr. Frankie: Well, thank you and thank you to all of your listeners for having me today. Excited to be here.

[00:06:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. One of the big pieces of the show is always hearing a bit more about the personal journey of each person that comes into this space, and so I'd love if you could share about what made you so passionate about this topic.

[00:06:43] Dr. Frankie: I grew up in New York City. In, I was born in the seventies, late seventies, and really the eighties and nineties around a lot going on in New York. Like just being raised in an adult playground as a kid in New York with parents that were in the fashion industry, very preoccupied and busy. And I was this precocious kid who had a lot of freedom and was pretty much neglected if we're gonna be, if we're gonna be real about it in a way.

Sure, sure. Right.

[00:07:14] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:07:14] Dr. Frankie: Um, but very loved people and loved to explore and experience. And I had a ma I, my mom passed away, but my mother was a nudist and very sex positive back then. Like even today to, in today's standards, I think she would be considered somebody pretty progressive. And I felt very comfortable talking about sex.

Um, you know, it was very normalized, like masturbation was very normalized in my home.

[00:07:42] Dr. Nicole: So Cool.

[00:07:43] Dr. Frankie: Yeah, and it was unusual. You know, like kids a couple times, like I've had, have play dates and it would somehow come up and the parent would talk to my mom about how, you know, it's not okay. Whatever it is. Kids are curious.

Sure, yes. Right. I had books that were age appropriate, um, description, like picture books that would describe what, you know, the birds and the bees and all of that stuff. And at that point in time, it just wasn't, families weren't really talking about it even today. Right. In our society. Yeah. Yeah. People aren't talking about it.

[00:08:16] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:17] Dr. Frankie: Like they should. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I feel like I grew up, you know, in an environment that really fostered curiosity and sexual freedom.

[00:08:27] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Yes. Yay. Did that, that's amazing. So lucky.

[00:08:32] Dr. Frankie: Yeah. Thanks. I feel really lucky and I feel like it's my, it's an opportunity for me to serve in a way. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Um, and support women especially around just like. Body acceptance, acceptance around desire. Mm-hmm. You know, and also recognizing the challenges that we experience as an adult, like trying to figure out how to be intimate and how to ask for what we need. So I just, I do a lot of work in my practice, um, in those areas.

[00:09:07] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And that's transformational work, right? So many people in the world hold so much shame around this topic and there's lots of areas of suffering and the human experience of course. But there is something very unique in our context about sex and the level of silence and repression that is so deep about this suffering.

[00:09:29] Dr. Frankie: Yeah. And it's like, is it safe Right. To talk about. And, um, I think people are fearful of being, you know, put on blast and exposed and. There's a lot of that now, right? The consequences of taking the risk of being curious or, you know, expressing one's needs and desires. There's, there's greater risk it feels like today and

[00:09:50] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:09:52] Dr. Frankie: And it's interesting 'cause we're surrounded with a ton of porn. Yes. Like so much, it's almost like, it's almost like overstimulating.

[00:10:02] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:03] Dr. Frankie: Too much. And yet we struggle to have conversations about what it is that we fantasize about and what we desire and

[00:10:13] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:10:14] Dr. Frankie: Masturbation and, you know.

[00:10:18] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:18] Dr. Frankie: But we can, right.

We can in one click watch all sorts of scenes. All

[00:10:24] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. And advertisement everywhere. It's like, here's this voluptuous look. Come by this product. Like it is everywhere. Right. But God forbid you embody that with power. Yes. Huh?

[00:10:38] Dr. Frankie: Yeah.

[00:10:38] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:10:39] Dr. Frankie: And you're a female. Well, then you must be a whore, a slut. Mm-hmm.

Right? Like

[00:10:42] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:10:44] Dr. Frankie: All of this messaging that we then, whether we like it or not, it somehow gets in there. We we start to internalize it.

[00:10:51] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And so the power of, you know, when you're parenting, you know, having those books that were age appropriate, that's so liberating. Even the words that we use and the tone and the voice at which we speak to it, right?

Oh, those, those are your private parts. We don't talk about that. We whisper about this topic or, you know, this is, you know, often your penis. Right? That one. We can go very direct with that word. Very, very easy. And then, um, you know, for vulvas, this is a kitty. This is a pussy. Like we don't use any sort of anatomical and then that ripples out.

You know, years into so much complexity that Yeah. For as a vulva over an owner myself, I couldn't even name the different areas of my vulva to a partner. 'cause I, I was never taught that.

[00:11:45] Dr. Frankie: You're right. Right. And I don't think sex education, even today in middle school, I think that's when it was like, I don't even think that it's much different than it was when we were there.

[00:11:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, so my, I don't even, I didn't even get sex ed.

[00:12:04] Dr. Frankie: I didn't either. I don't even remember it, but I know somebody who teaches sex ed in middle school. Yeah. And the curriculum is not that different.

[00:12:10] Dr. Nicole: Oh, that hurts. That hurts. That hurts. And it's probably very dependent on the state too, right?

Yes. And obviously private versus public schools. And then if you get into the religious, which is where I came from, I got abstinence only, uh, I had a purity ring. They did the paper test. Have you heard that one?

[00:12:29] Dr. Frankie: No.

[00:12:29] Dr. Nicole: They put like a blue Yeah. Horror stories. Uh, they put a blue piece of paper and a pink piece of paper together with glue and said, this is what happens when you have sex.

And then they ripped the papers apart and it was all like shards of the paper. And I'm like, and this is what happens when you try and leave that person who's going to want this broken piece of paper.

[00:12:50] Dr. Frankie: Wow. Now that, what does that do? Right? How does a child interpret that?

[00:13:00] Dr. Nicole: Well, speaking to my lived experience at the time I was a virgin and so I had my purity ring and I was like, absolutely.

Yeah. And then years later, going through sexual trauma and then trying to stay with that person because I didn't want to have more sex with more people 'cause I'd be more broken. Oh my gosh. Now that's something that I've done like a lot of work with, uh, purity and culture and trauma survivors from that.

And that's actually a very common piece of that, of not wanting to extend your partner list because it feels more and more damaging. And so people often stay in situations that are not for them, not even safer, healthy. So I think that's at least one way that that shows up. Mm-hmm. And, and I just think back to even that moment, you know, like I was a virgin in that moment, but how many other people had experienced trauma and were being told in that moment that they were broken?

I mean, that's not trauma informed. That's trauma inducing. Right? This is not okay. Yeah.

[00:13:57] Dr. Frankie: Yeah. And then like the, the fear, like you just said. So you stay in. Yeah. You stay in something that's not good for you.

[00:14:04] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Isn't that heartbreaking? Heartbreaking. When I look back on that, I'm just like, oh my God.

Younger Nicole. Big hug. Big hug. Right?

[00:14:12] Dr. Frankie: Big hug. Or the shaming of like our natural desire to pleasure ourselves. Like to be, you know, because of religion or whatever, to not be encouraged to explore and get to know your body and yourself

[00:14:29] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:14:29] Dr. Frankie: And your desires so that you can then show up in a relationship with somebody and know what feels good to you.

[00:14:35] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:14:37] Dr. Frankie: How do we figure that out? We don't figure that out under pressure with somebody else being intimately. Like that's what. We're expecting that we're gonna be sexually intimate with somebody else and we're gonna explore our body and figure it out.

[00:14:50] Dr. Nicole: Right, right, right. Absolutely. I'm curious, what do you say to that person who is in that space and struggling and feel so much guilt with that?

How do you work with them and where do you start?

[00:15:03] Dr. Frankie: I mean, think about how many women have not had an orgasm?

[00:15:07] Dr. Nicole: Oh, my heart, no, I can't,

[00:15:08] Dr. Frankie: you know, that stat. I can't. It's so high. Like I think my brain just like refuses to memorize it.

[00:15:14] Dr. Nicole: It hurts. I can't,

[00:15:16] Dr. Frankie: it hurts. It's just not even, it's just, it's high it, and I think a part of that is because, right.

The shame, like we're talking about that, but it's also because we haven't been able to relax enough and be present enough with ourselves privately to understand our bodies and our desires.

[00:15:37] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:15:38] Dr. Frankie: So what would I, what would I say, like in my practice, what do I do in situations like that?

[00:15:42] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:15:43] Dr. Frankie: I first say like, we gotta familiarize ourselves with our vulva, what's happening down there?

Like, get in the mirror. Yes. Right. Get a mirror, get in there.

[00:15:53] Dr. Nicole: Look.

[00:15:54] Dr. Frankie: You know what I mean? Learn some of the names right? Yeah. Lay like all the different, just Yes. Read about it.

[00:16:00] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:01] Dr. Frankie: And then start to touch yourself, like mm-hmm. With curiosity. And you're gonna have probably, you're gonna have thoughts that are possibly intrusive

[00:16:11] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:16:11] Dr. Frankie: That come in like, you know, shameful thoughts and you just use mindfulness.

[00:16:16] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:16:16] Dr. Frankie: Learn a little bit about mindfulness and just let the po the thoughts come and pass like a cloud in the sky, for example. Yes. And you take, take breaths and breathe and try to stay present and keep, and stay in it. Don't try to, don't stop yourself.

Be in it.

[00:16:33] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:16:34] Dr. Frankie: Like, commit to like 30 minutes. Mm-hmm. Like, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna do this for 30 minutes.

[00:16:39] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:16:39] Dr. Frankie: And what do I notice? I always say now sex toys are so accessible.

[00:16:46] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:16:46] Dr. Frankie: And you can get them in a pretty, you know, private a package that, you know, you can't tell that it's a sex toy.

[00:16:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:55] Dr. Frankie: Order something like a vibrator and play. Yes. Maybe order a couple different toys.

[00:17:02] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:03] Dr. Frankie: You know? Mm-hmm. Sometimes it's helpful to have some assistance in that way. Yeah. On your own and figure out how to get to a point of climax and what does that look like and

[00:17:15] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:17:16] Dr. Frankie: Even if you don't reach that.

Right. But to feel like, wow, there's sensitivity on this side of my labia, for example, like I am more sensitive. Most of us have an area that is like. A button. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm.

[00:17:28] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:28] Dr. Frankie: It's not just like, oh, right on the clip. Right. Everybody has the same spot like you have, it's like no.

[00:17:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:37] Dr. Frankie: Not the same for everybody.

[00:17:39] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:41] Dr. Frankie: And Labias look, or Volvos look different. How many, there's like hundreds of different

[00:17:48] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Mm-hmm.

[00:17:50] Dr. Frankie: Variations in color and in, you know, size of the CLD and Right. And all of that. So familiarize ourselves.

[00:18:00] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:18:02] Dr. Frankie: The more exposure we have, the less uncomfortable we are habituation.

Right? Like,

[00:18:09] Dr. Nicole: yes.

[00:18:11] Dr. Frankie: When we don't know, things are scary, the unknown is scary.

[00:18:17] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:18:19] Dr. Frankie: That's what I do with people. I, I encourage them. Yes. And I'm right there with them. Yes. I may even suggest sex toys, some that I really appreciate, that I really like. Mm-hmm. Some that I've heard from clients that are great.

[00:18:32] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:33] Dr. Frankie: And I say, go explore. That's your homework.

[00:18:36] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Learn to play. Uh, I love the mirror ritual. I think that's such a good place to start. Right. To fully embrace and look at your full natural body.

[00:18:53] Dr. Frankie: Yeah.

[00:18:54] Dr. Nicole: Wow.

[00:18:55] Dr. Frankie: Wow.

[00:18:56] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:18:57] Dr. Frankie: And it's hard to, I think it's hard to stay with it

[00:19:01] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:19:01] Dr. Frankie: Because it brings up uncomfortable feelings for a lot of people.

Mm-hmm. So even to endure that and like know that like this is something that you're like, you're stretching yourself. Yep. And you're challenging yourself and you feel like you've. You're accomplishing something.

[00:19:19] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I love that word, stretching. I'm always using that as a good way to describe this.

'cause uh, stretching can be uncomfortable, but we're not hurting the muscle. We're not ripping the muscle. We're stretching it though. And you can feel that. And often there is that relief at the end. You've got that increased blood flow, you're feeling the flexibility. Right. But when you're in it, you're like, ah, you know?

[00:19:40] Dr. Frankie: Yeah.

[00:19:41] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:19:42] Dr. Frankie: And so I appreciate you saying that 'cause it's true.

[00:19:45] Dr. Nicole: Totally. Yeah. I teach yoga. This is probably, yeah. Probably a deep like, connection to the practice. Um, and yeah, like you said, I was thinking about the listener who was tuning in and, and hearing you talk about the pathway of helping people.

And I wanted to ask that listener, like, at what point did your chest feel tight? You know, like at what point did you start to go, oh, oh, well toys, oh, oh oh. Or is it the mirror? Or like, where did you start to feel that? And

[00:20:10] Dr. Frankie: yeah,

[00:20:11] Dr. Nicole: to take a moment to like ground yourself, take that deep breath, remind yourself that you're safe.

And I appreciate the framework of mindfulness because there are so many systems that are so deeply internalized, right? When I was first trying to come out of purity culture, I had my whole, you know, school. My whole educational experience there. My friends that were marrying pastors, my family and all of that deeply existed inside my head.

And we're relational creatures who need social support. And so when I think about taking the step outside of purity culture, I feel like I'm gonna lose all of my community. 'cause I'm gonna be judged. And that is extremely terrifying. And you know, at the time, I don't think we're that conscious as we think about that, but deep within the safety of our nervous system, you know, that's really what we're coming up against is will I be safe if I stretch beyond what society has told me to do?

[00:21:05] Dr. Frankie: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that's why, in a way, it's like if you can do that on your own in private, you start there.

[00:21:15] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:17] Dr. Frankie: And you build some confidence and a greater understanding, then I think it, right. It helps us to be able to stand up to, yeah. Others that have really kind of, whatever, you know, different beliefs or fixed beliefs that are holding them back, and that then therefore get, they hold us back.

To be able to confront that in a way that feels like informed.

[00:21:44] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. You build a muscle resilience. Right. And there's so much empowerment too, and going from, you know, looking at the mirror, feeling that discomfort, sitting with that to then even pleasuring yourself in the mirror, really taking that next step.

And even can you seduce yourself in the mirror when you look in there? Can you feel your power and say, wow, I'm a hot, attractive human being. Like that's the ideal state. Like, I wanna get to that state with all of my clients. Right. Where you really feel turned on by yourself.

[00:22:17] Dr. Frankie: Yes. Yes. Or even like, you're listening to your breath as it mm-hmm.

You know, gets deeper and like just noticing. All of that, like staying connected to your senses, like being aware and feeling, feeling your sexy, getting your sexy on. Yeah.

[00:22:35] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:35] Dr. Frankie: I think it, it, not that I think, I know it starts with ourselves,

[00:22:38] Dr. Nicole: Right. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And as you were saying with the sensation, right?

We know there are so many of us who go through this world, myself included, always a growing journey, growth edges of needing to spend more time in the body, right? I have so much to do today. I have to go to work, I have all these pieces, I wanna create this and that. And so, so much of that is in the cognitive right?

And so we're thinking, thinking, thinking. Often not. Feeling. Mm-hmm. Some of us might have our shoulders up by our ears throughout the day, really not taking that deep breath. And then we come into the space of eroticism and sexuality and just want to feel everything, and that just doesn't make sense. We can't go through our whole day up in our heads and then be like, cool.

Now let me experience all pleasure and feel at all. We just, we're not flexing that muscle.

[00:23:29] Dr. Frankie: Yeah. No. Mm-hmm. It's not a switch, right. That you turn on and off. Exactly. I think it's, it's, you've gotta sort of work yourself into that state and it takes time and it takes a safe environment and just, and confidence and, yeah.

Mm-hmm. I think that we really need to work on, on building that up and, and also just like self-acceptance, like this is, we are wired to connect with each other in this way. We are wired to masturbate, and it's there for a reason, right? Mm-hmm. This pleasure exists for a reason. Um,

[00:24:12] Dr. Nicole: exactly

[00:24:13] Dr. Frankie: right.

[00:24:13] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

'''''''';

[00:24:14] Dr. Frankie: So I think just recognizing that and allowing ourselves to go there is, is it's, it needs, I, I wanna see it happen more.

Yeah. And that's why, you know, I do the work and I wanna encourage and then also be the like, learn. This is another thing that's interesting too, as a sex therapist, the theories and the interventions that I utilize, even back like 20 years ago, a lot of them are the same.

[00:24:42] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:45] Dr. Frankie: So, yeah. I want, I'm like, we could even evolve there.

Yeah. Like, so there's, there's a lot. This is like, this is an area that needs so much growth, so much nurturing. Yeah, I'm here for it and I, I, we need to do it together. Like it's collectively, we've got to work together to move the needle.

[00:25:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I'm curious, if you were to step into that vision of that new way of working therapeutically, what do you see in that world?

[00:25:20] Dr. Frankie: Like more openness, more curiosity and Yeah, and less like constriction and, um, judgment. And I just, I can even, and I know like I'm in the bay, we talked about this before we went, um, on air, but like I'm, I'm from New York City, the Bay Area. It's pretty, I mean, it's progressive, right? Yeah. It's like there's, I've been very fortunate to be exposed to, I mean there, there's the Armory in San Francisco.

I don't think it's, it's still, I mean now I think they do, they shoot porn in there, but it used to be like a sex club.

[00:25:59] Dr. Nicole: Cool.

[00:26:00] Dr. Frankie: Right? There's like in New York City, there, there, there are even now sex clubs. So there's just like, you have exposure in these places, in these big cities that many places in our country that you can't, doesn't exist.

Mm-hmm. So I, you know, I think that. It's just something that we need to, we need to make it more, you know what's making me think of 50 Shades of Gray?

[00:26:26] Dr. Nicole: Oh gosh.

[00:26:26] Dr. Frankie: Right. Remember when that came out and I'm reading it and I'm like, this is so vanilla.

[00:26:33] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:26:34] Dr. Frankie: It blew off the shelves. Blew off the shelves. So this, it's, people want, they want to understand and they're curious and they're right.

It was somehow in middle, like in the middle of the country. Right. These like places that don't have this kind of exposure. They were all reading the books about how to have, you know, build a sex room and

[00:26:56] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yep.

[00:26:58] Dr. Frankie: What does it look like to Spank?

[00:26:59] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. And 50 Shades of Gray is such a bad example of kink and there's so many boundary crossings in that Yeah.

That are so problematic. And yet people are like, I love this. And I'm like, oh God. So much work to do around consent. So much work to do. Oh my gosh. And you're so right. People are like clinging for it. Yes. And more and more and more. And it makes sense. You know, in terms of our life force energy and drive sex is a huge force of energy in our lives that can compel us to do wild, truly wild things.

Some people will destroy a family and a whole commitment that they've made for that. Right. And yes, you know, I absolutely support non-monogamy within ethical frameworks of consent. And also it's. Such an intense pull for people. And so it makes sense that we wanna have more understanding, more language around this.

And so I see that as, as really something that should hopefully help people to release shame, because I know that, you know, you and I both have the, the beautiful benefit of having people come to us with all of their secrets and vulnerable pieces. You know? But I, I just, you know, I have so many clients who say, well, I just don't know why I'm so, like, curious about this.

I feel bad. Like, why am I so interested in this topic of sex? Like, why? And I'm like, everyone's interested in this.

[00:28:16] Dr. Frankie: Yeah. 'cause you're, you're not supposed to be Right. It's so taboo. It's so, you know, and that makes it even more intriguing. It's like,

[00:28:23] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:28:24] Dr. Frankie: It's a no no, don't do that. Yeah.

[00:28:28] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:28] Dr. Frankie: And then it just, it persists.

Right. If we were told No, we really, we want more of that.

[00:28:35] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's like when you tell the kids you can't have the, the cookie, the cookies. Yeah. Exactly. Put it on the top shelf. You know what they do when you're gone.

[00:28:44] Dr. Frankie: Woo. I'll do anything they can to get to that. Yeah.

[00:28:48] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:50] Dr. Frankie: Yeah.

Absolutely. So how do we, I mean, I guess it's like how do we normalize it more and encourage people to take more risks around it mm-hmm. And not be so fearful. And the shame, which you touched on too, here is where they break up families, because I mean, that comes from a place of shame. Mm-hmm. Right? If we're just honest about our needs and our desires and can say, look, this isn't working for me.

How can we think outside of the box? How can we figure out how to get our needs met? In this arrangement, or maybe not in this arrangement, but let's at least have the conversation and explore possibilities.

[00:29:30] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:29:31] Dr. Frankie: Instead of cheating.

[00:29:32] Dr. Nicole: Yep. Some people would rather die than have that conversation, which is where our work begins.

Right. It's like, whoa.

[00:29:39] Dr. Frankie: The harm that we, cause I mean mostly ourselves, the, the guilt and the shame that compounds and we hurt everybody else that, you know, all the fallout that comes from that.

[00:29:51] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:52] Dr. Frankie: So we're sneaky, secretive.

[00:29:56] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Because we feel like that's the best thing to do to keep ourselves safe at the end of the day.

Like that's always that, that unconscious drive is like, how do I keep myself safe? I must keep this secret to keep family safe. All of that sort of stuff. But you're right, the devastating consequences for yourself and all the other people when we could have that conversation. And so just as much as you were speaking to the mirror ritual.

It's a slow process. I hate the cheesy, it's a journey, right? But the reality is when you are expanding to new capacities of pleasure, it's gonna take small little steps, right? Looking in the mirror, feeling uncomfortable, pleasuring yourself in the mirror, learning to pleasure yourself above the bedsheets.

That was always something that got me for myself. And journey is like I was living in my own studio apartment and still masturbating under the sheets. And I'm like, what? What is this?

[00:30:49] Dr. Frankie: You feel like somebody might see, somebody might see you.

[00:30:52] Dr. Nicole: God. He's watching. You know what I mean? At least for me

[00:30:54] Dr. Frankie: or you, you have photographs of like deceased ancestors.

Like for me.

[00:30:58] Dr. Nicole: Yeahhhh

[00:30:58] Dr. Frankie: I have a family member that are, and I'm like, oh my gosh, my grandma's on the wall looking right at me.

[00:31:04] Dr. Nicole: Totally, totally. And funny thing is, your grandma had sex so that you could be here. You know? Like, woo. You know? It's like, so I hear that, I hear that. And so like, I think normalizing that process of one step at a time.

Yeah, just one step at a time. What is that next thing, right? We talk about like micro doses, not doing the crazy big psychedelics. What is that next small dose that feels feasible for you? And trusting that there's gonna be that nervous system adjustment and stretching into that. And then another important piece that you mentioned was community, right?

Finding play spaces, right? And if that is way too much for the chest for folks, right? Finding podcasts, finding books, finding any sort of space where you can surround yourself with more of this content. Because just as much as I was speaking to earlier, the ways in which purity culture was deep inside my head because of, uh, the school, the friends, the family.

When you kind of balance that out with other voices, those two get internalized. And we wanna have some sort of balance, right? Not just all of the societal stuff. We need some other spaces to bring in new content that gets internalized.

[00:32:13] Dr. Frankie: And also being around people that are like-minded that are also right.

You don't feel like you're a freak or you're a weirdo for having these fantasies or desires. It's like, okay, I'm with people who get me.

[00:32:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

[00:32:28] Dr. Frankie: Because otherwise, it's like you sit there in that Right. Shame and it's paralyzing.

[00:32:33] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:34] Dr. Frankie: Mm-hmm. So yeah, community is hugely important and right. We can't thrive without community and a support system, right?

[00:32:41] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:42] Dr. Frankie: So even it's like one person that, you know, that tends to be more open-minded and non-judgmental to even begin, like have some conversations with them. I mean, maybe you'll learn something. It's like maybe they too, they can add to what it is that you're considering.

[00:33:00] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:33:00] Dr. Frankie: Instead of us just sitting with ourselves.

Right. And like wondering and

[00:33:04] Dr. Nicole: Am I broken? Am I weird? Yes. Am I normal? The big questions that I'm sure you see as a psychologist all the time.

[00:33:11] Dr. Frankie: All the time. Mm-hmm.

[00:33:13] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:33:14] Dr. Frankie: Another thought that just popped up about just like. You know, the blowing up families and doing, you know, like cheating and all this.

Yeah, yeah. Like today it is so hard to sneak around. Mm-hmm. We have, like, on our, everything's push notificate, whatever it is, text messages are coming in from my phone on my desktop, all sorts of things. So messages to my son show up on my phone. Sometimes he's an adult, you know what I'm saying? Like, things get, wires get crossed, and so it's inevitable that it's gonna come out anyway.

So in some ways I feel like it forces us to maybe be more honest, maybe be more courageous and bold to have those difficult conversations. I don't know if it's happening, but I, I'm thinking probably people are like, you know what? I don't wanna even begin to sneak around like this. I can tell it's happening.

I'm on the precipice of that and it's too risky. I'm gonna. I'm gonna lean into doing what scares me most, which is the right thing, which is to have a conversation.

[00:34:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I really feel like the digital age is a huge transformative piece of sexuality and always will be because of what you just said.

Right? It's much harder to hide. A lot of people share location, right? Stuff like that. Yes. Um, let alone the transmission of ideas that once before you could only get in a damn often in a library inside a school that you had to get access to and pay. Right. Like now this stuff is so much more available and so there is a huge cultural shift.

And also you're, you know, well we are much more isolated in many ways. And at the same time, the nuances that we are also very connected. And so you can have so many more dynamics going. Right? And so that is all so much change that's coming into our sex and erotic life. And I think that that's really important.

'cause sometimes people get into the very like evolutionary sort of perspective of looking at this and I'm like, yeah, that that's true. And also we are evolving constantly and so what we crave and what we desire is still in a big flux, especially with the liberation of women. Wow. I remember reading data on how women cheat just as much as men, if not more.

And that really took off in the 1970s when we had more financial freedom.

[00:35:37] Dr. Frankie: Mm. Mm-hmm. Makes sense.

[00:35:40] Dr. Nicole: That makes sense. 'cause now if I cheat, I'm not gonna die and be left on the streets.

[00:35:45] Dr. Frankie: Right, right. Yeah.

[00:35:48] Dr. Nicole: Funny how that works.

[00:35:48] Dr. Frankie: Right?

[00:35:49] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:35:50] Dr. Frankie: How about how plenty of women watch porn? Yeah. I just did a talk on that the other day.

[00:35:55] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:35:56] Dr. Frankie: Like. They're seeking out porn for entertainment. Yes.

[00:36:01] Dr. Nicole: Yes. And I appreciate that distinction. You know, when I'm talking with clients about porn, it's how can we understand that it's not bad to look at this, there shouldn't be any shame with this. I think this is actually a beautiful space to be able to explore your fantasies and desires and what sparks that for you and how that changes over time.

'cause that one's inevitable. And also, how do we understand that this is entertainment and not education.

[00:36:26] Dr. Frankie: Yes. So that's important. That's a very important point. Mm-hmm. That distinction, because I think the younger generation is using it as a education. That's their sex ed. I've got twins that are 20 years old and oh my gosh.

You know, can you imagine growing up in my house, just like sex, you know, that I'm doing sex therapy on, I work from home too, so they could hear me through my office door sometimes, and they're like, oh my gosh, mom. You know what I mean?

[00:36:54] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:36:56] Dr. Frankie: Yeah. This idea that like, that is what sex should, should be like with a partner.

And it not necessarily, not everybody wants to be choked,

[00:37:06] Dr. Nicole: right?

[00:37:06] Dr. Frankie: Not everybody wants a cock down their throat. Right? Like this idea too. I don't know what the, what it's called. Maybe you'll, you'll, you'll know, but like when you, you take semen into your mouth and you're spitting it out and you're sucking it back up and you're, and I remember having a conversation like that, like that, it's maybe some people would enjoy that, but don't make the assumption.

[00:37:30] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Mm-hmm.

[00:37:33] Dr. Frankie: Right. So I think that's important for people to recognize that this is like, and you can watch porn in relationship to, to get folks aroused and excited. You can be with a partner and watch, and doesn't mean that necessarily what they're doing in the scene is something that. Just 'cause you enjoy watching it doesn't mean that you wanna participate in it, right?

[00:37:55] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. Some fantasies are truly best in that space of fantasy and not something that we wanna live out in our reality. And yeah, I think when we, when we're talking about porn, we can also get more specific about representation of directors, let alone the people in the content. Of course, of course.

Mm-hmm. Representation across like bodies, races, um, types of hair, even for fem bodies, right? Like queerness, all of that. We can talk about that. And also who's directing this.

[00:38:27] Dr. Frankie: Yes. Yeah. Yes. So is it, is it often, often like, 'cause I certain I like porn. I'll watch it sometimes and I don't, I mean, I, there's like queer porn and, but oftentimes it's very, I imagine it's sort of like hetero normative.

[00:38:46] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yep, yep, yep, yep. Absolutely.

[00:38:49] Dr. Frankie: I'm wondering how that plays into it. It's like when you're watching a queer film and I'm sitting there and I'm like, okay, a straight person directed this film a hundred percent. This is

not, this is not it. Yeah. Indicative.

No. Mm-hmm.

[00:39:06] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:07] Dr. Frankie: So, yeah, I wonder, I'm just thinking now.

I haven't thought about that exactly what you just brought up, but I think. Yeah, it's probably pretty hetero.

[00:39:15] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. I feel like yeah, it's often very hetero. Um, often, yeah. A lot of aggression as you had spoke to. Yeah. Um, which is great if it's consensual, but we need balance. Where's the balance of all of that?

Um, and then often, yeah. It's like so hard to find someone with a full bush, you know? I'm like, where is that? I know know. Like, this is like all, you know,

[00:39:36] Dr. Frankie: it's not in style right now. It's like, oh my gosh. That reminds me, I was a few years ago, I went in to get a, a tattoo coverup, uhhuh. And my tattoo artist, who I've gone to several times, he had the hairiest, it was like pen, it was like penthouse or something.

[00:39:49] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:39:50] Dr. Frankie: Pick on the wall that had the hairiest bush ever. I'm like, wow. I forgot that that was actually what was most desired. That was what was popular. Mm-hmm. I think it was like the eighties or seventies.

[00:40:01] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:40:02] Dr. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But you know, that's gonna come back in style.

[00:40:06] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:07] Dr. Frankie: And then all these women will have lasered.

There's no hair left. 'cause they've lasered it off.

Yeah. It's like, oh no, it's a trend. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. I mean, it's gonna come back and it always does. It's a cycle.

[00:40:22] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Off cycle. Absolutely. Absolutely. And even in that process, like for me, I've, I've recently been exploring, like growing out my hair and especially in like my legs and my armpits and I was just exploring.

I was like, I've never tried it. Let's see how it sits for me. And as I've looked at it, I've been like, oh, like my legs look so gross. Like wow. And I, I'm so sad that that's the thought. And then I'm like, oh, right, right, right, right. Internalized systems. Right, right. And so I've been like just allowing the hair to keep growing out so that I can get to that space of like learning to love it.

And from there if I would like to shave. Good. That's a space of empowerment. Yeah, exactly.

[00:41:01] Dr. Frankie: I like that. I like that Because you're just like riding the wave of like all this programming, slowing down. Yeah. And noticing.

[00:41:11] Dr. Nicole: Yep. Yep.

[00:41:12] Dr. Frankie: And getting, yeah.

[00:41:14] Dr. Nicole: No set of movements waiting.

[00:41:16] Dr. Frankie: No

[00:41:16] Dr. Nicole: tolerance building. Tolerance building.

Let's get to the space of pleasure and then some freedom. Right. What do I wanna do from here? That's a very different space.

[00:41:24] Dr. Frankie: Yeah. I love that.

[00:41:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:41:28] Dr. Frankie: Like let that sink in.

[00:41:30] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, I know. And then I was like, what would my mom say? Right. Oh gosh. You know? So like, that's how deep the relationships go.

And so when I think about, yeah, something like porn, when you're only watching films in this one way, like we are such deep narrative beings, we're always making meaning of our experience and story. And so we look to others, we look to other stories of what is possible. And so if you're in a paradigm where you're never talking about sex with your people in your circle, this is the one space you go.

And then you only see one type of content. And we, and we know that in like history books, even like who's writing. Yes, the history books and that shapes your whole concept. Again, Christian culture, you know, evolution I was taught was very wrong. All that stuff that, you know, like they taught me a deep right.

So with sex, when that, when we are thinking about what we're watching, like what would it mean for folks to sure know the thing that gets you off always. Like that's consistent, reliable, and what's that like, space of curiosity? What's that scene that you haven't seen that you could explore and kind of sit through some of that discomfort?

Just as much as we sat through the discomfort of the mirror ritual, not in a way where we're ripping the muscle, of course, to be very clear, but what does it mean to stretch your zone of the erotic?

[00:42:48] Dr. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And be uncomfortable. Like it's, it's guaranteed it's gonna be uncomfortable. It's like think fantasy, right?

Yeah. We can, there are people that can fantasize. Internally without even touching themselves and get off.

[00:43:05] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Magical

[00:43:06] Dr. Frankie: amazing. Right? Like that didn't just ha I think it's like a muscle that you, you, you learn how to do that so that you can get in there and really feel it in your fibers, right?

[00:43:18] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:18] Dr. Frankie: But to get to that point, I think if it can be, it can feel uncomfortable.

[00:43:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:43:27] Dr. Frankie: For those of us who have, who are fortunate enough to like fall into fantasy and like just be rela in a relaxed way, maybe at a young age.

[00:43:35] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:43:36] Dr. Frankie: We're able to just experience it and build that muscle and that ability skip over the discomfort.

[00:43:43] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:43:45] Dr. Frankie: They're lucky.

[00:43:46] Dr. Nicole: Yes, they are lucky, absolutely.

Mm-hmm.

[00:43:48] Dr. Frankie: But for more of us, it's, it's, it's gotta be something intentional where you're willing to, like you said, be uncomfortable.

[00:43:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. And I think that's where the clinical psychology background that we share is so powerful because sometimes I, I, you know, I was deep in that training going like, damn, I wish I would've gotten a PhD in sex.

I wish I would've gone that route. Damn, damn. But also, there's so much beauty, I think with a clinical psychology background, which is so wide, to take all of that information and then funnel it into transforming a space like this. Because we know that neuronal pathways, you know that you have to use them.

Right. What the practice of actually firing that pathway, like a muscle. The more you lift it, the more you build that. And so my supervisors would talk about trying to build new neuronal pathways, whether it's from depression or anxiety or getting more comfortable with sex. The first time you try to think in that different way, which is maybe gratitude or less shame or whatever it is, it's gonna feel so uncomfortable.

It's like walking through a jungle of weeds and bugs and all these vines, right? Compared to maybe the space of shame is this really well cut pathway, because you think that so often. So you're like, cool, I can just walk right there. And so if you're wanting to go in the other direction, it's like thoughts and thoughts and thoughts and thoughts.

And you have to, like you said, have compassion. Let the clouds, the thoughts pass. Yes. And then keep going deeper. 'cause you're gonna build more of that pathway and then one day you're gonna wake up and it's gonna be so well walked, that that is the path you go. And the other one will start to get all covered with jungle and weeds, you know?

[00:45:27] Dr. Frankie: Exactly. Yeah. So you're walking, you're creating a new pathway. I always say get the machete out. Yeah. Because there's gonna be a lot of debris in the way. There might be fallen trees, you get ready to climb over and climb under. And so I love it. You use a similar analogy. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, and there's neuroplasticity.

[00:45:46] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:45:47] Dr. Frankie: So our brains grow and they can change. And we want to be doing that actively.

[00:45:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:45:54] Dr. Frankie: To stay healthy, our brains need to be flexed.

[00:45:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:58] Dr. Frankie: We keep doing the same exact thing day in and day out. That's not, that's not ideal. It's like if you're sedentary and you're sitting in a chair. On a couch.

[00:46:08] Dr. Nicole: Right?

Exactly. Exactly. Absolutely. So taking that movement, taking those moments of stretching and you know, I remember the first time I had gone to brunch with some really lovely, amazing people in my community and, um, they were like, what, what fantasies do you have right now? And I had never been asked that question from my friends of like, what fantasy is not, you know, I think it's so much more common to come into spaces with friends, especially women, and really complain and like say, this is bad, this is frustrating, this is that.

This is that. Right. This sucks. Versus what are some of the things you're actually excited about? And at the time I was in grad school, so I was like, Hmm, I wanna finish grad school. That's actually the biggest, you know, rod of fantasy I have is to get out of this thing. Um, but it was such, you know, it was something that stuck with me of like, what am I fan?

Nothing. Wow, okay, let me start flexing that muscle. What do I want to dream about? What things excite me? All of that. Right? And so to be able to process that in community transformative.

[00:47:11] Dr. Frankie: Transformative, yeah. Mm-hmm. It gives you permission to be like, to take risks.

[00:47:18] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And as you said, it's about play.

[00:47:23] Dr. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:47:24] Dr. Nicole: Could you say more to that? How do you describe that for folks who are trying to understand what it means to play in their erotic life?

[00:47:31] Dr. Frankie: Yeah, so I think it's, it's trying to get out of like every day we, right day to day, we're like. We have to be here we are, we're psychologists and we're professionals, and we have to, you know, present a certain way to kind of let that melt off a little bit.

Like be able to, or or just even take off that persona.

[00:47:56] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:47:57] Dr. Frankie: Right. And allow yourself to be silly and not feel like you have to get it where all things Right. And not Right. Feel like, it almost makes me think of like ace ecce dance, you know?

[00:48:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yes.

[00:48:12] Dr. Frankie: Feel your body, get in touch with what it's like to be moving in your body and you know, when they do, like, I remember this was like, I don't know what grade I was in, maybe fifth or sixth, and they said, okay, you, you know, turn into a tree.

You know what I mean? Like, and do this, do this position and that. And remember we were all looking at each other, we're so uncomfortable.

[00:48:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:35] Dr. Frankie: As we get older, I think it even gets more awkward. Yes. We get right. We feel more fearful of judgment. Like we feel more concerned that we're gonna, our tree is gonna look stupid.

[00:48:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:46] Dr. Frankie: Even more stupid than we thought when we were in fifth grade,

[00:48:49] Dr. Nicole: right? Mm-hmm.

[00:48:50] Dr. Frankie: So figuring out how to just like, go with it in an, just go with it and around people in community where you, you know that they're doing the same thing. You're not alone in it. And allow yourself to be silly. Yeah. And get it wrong.

And fall on your f you know what I mean? Like, say something or do something stupid and realize, you know what, right? It's okay. No one laughed at you. No one rejected you. We're all still here. And Oh, look over there. Someone else is just whatever it is. You know what I mean? Like,

[00:49:27] Dr. Nicole: right.

[00:49:29] Dr. Frankie: And you, you know, you're noticing your reaction.

And just go for it. And don't feel like we don't, we're not perfect. None of us are, we're pretending to be perfect.

[00:49:38] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:49:42] Dr. Frankie: So, yeah, just like the idea of, hopefully that answers your question, but the idea, when you think about playfulness, I think you've gotta be willing to like be silly and kinda be stupid and silly basically, and be okay with it.

[00:49:58] Dr. Nicole: Right? And if that, doing that in the erotic space feels way too wild. Do it in your day-to-day life. What a great play space to just try that. There is a real reason why theater folks have very fun, playful, set. Right? Yes. Like they practice all of that, the goofiness, they're releasing the sound. And so there's some of the like kinky, wildest folks I've ever met is theater people.

[00:50:22] Dr. Frankie: Yeah, yeah. Because that, again, there's the flexing the muscle.

[00:50:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:26] Dr. Frankie: They're used to it.

[00:50:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:50:30] Dr. Frankie: They've been surrounded by it. It's okay. It's like, this is all good. This is acceptable. Mm.

[00:50:35] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:36] Dr. Frankie: So, yeah. So what would you, I guess what, for our, you know, for your listeners, like what would be, I'm trying to think of like something that's not so intimidating an environment to be in that maybe is not starting with like.

A sex environment where you can be like, there's gotta be spaces. I know Ecstatic dance is one of them.

[00:50:55] Dr. Nicole: Contact improv.

[00:50:57] Dr. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Oh,

[00:50:58] Dr. Nicole: okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is a lot of body movement and just playing off of people in that space. It's like the very theater in that way of being able to do that. And even any sort of dance space is probably a bit of that, right?

Like go to a dance and shake and release even that play. Um, I know some people that do like d and d that's more a space where people do like role play and stuff like that. Um. Yeah, because I mean, look at the way, you know, again, as kids, we have recess, right? And then middle school, we still have some recess maybe depending on your school, high school.

Yeah, no, no more recess. And then you go to your job for eight hours and it's like, sit at your computer, do this and make sure you button it all the way up, right? Because this is a professional space. So like, you know, so like for us to forget how that impacts us when we know that eroticism, eroticism is so deeply connected to play it, it breaks my heart when so many people blame themselves, blame themselves, blame themselves.

And I'm like, hold on. Take that step back. And do you see the system? When did recess get cut out of your life? When did that creative practice that you had, uh, when were you told that that was not profitable and therefore you should no longer do it? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:52:16] Dr. Frankie: Yeah. Like how is that productive? Right?

It's like we gotta be productive and make money and.

[00:52:23] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:52:23] Dr. Frankie: Go, go, go, go, go.

[00:52:25] Dr. Nicole: Right. So this sex better be productive. I better come in five minutes and it better be done by 10. You know, like

[00:52:31] Dr. Frankie: Right, right, right. Yeah. Oh my gosh. That just brought up. And there's so much, I mean, there's so many things that come up, but the idea that like, you know, it takes women longer to orgasm, but in the, you know, in the movies, in the media, no, in porn.

Mm-hmm. It's like, oh, we can just org multiple orgasms again and again. Mm.

[00:52:55] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:56] Dr. Frankie: Quickly. And it just, so then it, what does that do? It gives people this, um, misperception. Yeah.

[00:53:02] Dr. Nicole: Right. And so the internal dialogue that people often I see in my room is, I'm taking too long. I'm taking too long. I'm taking too long.

[00:53:11] Dr. Frankie: Yeah. And, oh, no. Like, I don't, you know, then starting to worry about their partner, thinking like, right. Like, oh. They're gonna think that they don't do it for me. And that the idea of like faking orgasm because it's taking too long and now I have to, let me just pretend, make it,

[00:53:30] Dr. Nicole: oh, my heart. My heart.

[00:53:33] Dr. Frankie: Right.

So what does that do it then? Right? Then it just, it hurts both individuals because one, she's not getting off and then their partner doesn't even know, doesn't realize it, and isn't able

to

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Isn't able to figure out how to, and maybe they were fine with taking a long time. Like it, it was okay.

Mm-hmm. But so, you know, so there's just this idea that it's supposed to look a certain way and, and then we fall. We fall victim. To that.

[00:54:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Again, 'cause we wanna be accepted. Please partner accept me. I wanna perform in a way that is acceptable, right? And so getting into that safe partnership where you can release some of that, right?

And let go of some of that, that's the transformative work. And I think about deconstructing the intimacy escalator, like that expectation of, you know, attraction foreplay, penetration orgasm. And I love the word play. Just like cross all of that out, throw it away, burn it, and then bring back the word play, right?

Mm-hmm. And play is not linear. Play might have three orgasms and it might have not have any, yeah, it might be a hard cock or a soft cock, right? Like all of that is play. And maybe the most erotic space that you're feeling is in between your elbows today or the back of your knees, right? Like, it doesn't always even have to be the genital space, right?

And so there's so much, uh, scripts and narrative and I just wanna like. Burn it all and come back to a playground. Right. Like with your body and the people that you love.

[00:55:12] Dr. Frankie: Yeah. So that's another good point too. The genic zones in our bo there's so like,

[00:55:17] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[00:55:18] Dr. Frankie: Yeah. But we don't even think about that. We're focused on the genitalia and, you know what I mean?

Yeah. Right.

[00:55:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:55:26] Dr. Frankie: Mm-hmm. It's so many like elbows. Yeah. Like all of this, like, you know, neck. I mean, there's just, for everybody it's different, but

[00:55:33] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:55:35] Dr. Frankie: We don't spend enough time in those areas.

[00:55:37] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Especially when you're like, I got five minutes. What are you doing licking my elbow?

We're like, what are you, what are you doing over here? But ideally, yeah, like maybe stepping into a space of, you know, losing the frame of this has to be orgasmic and maybe stepping into more of a frame of curiosity. What am I noticing? What sensations are coming up for me? And then just feeling that, and that actually being the goal.

[00:56:03] Dr. Frankie: Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. So, again, like mindfulness, I think if we can really like focus on just noticing the noticing that we, 'cause it's normal, it's a normal state of being to just have like thoughts that distract us,

[00:56:19] Dr. Nicole: right?

[00:56:21] Dr. Frankie: And to just bring ourselves back.

[00:56:24] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:25] Dr. Frankie: Continuously staying in it. Absolutely.

[00:56:28] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

[00:56:31] Dr. Frankie: Seeing it through all the way.

[00:56:33] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:33] Dr. Frankie: Right? Mm-hmm. Even if it feels like it's taking forever, just be with it.

[00:56:39] Dr. Nicole: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Just notice, just open awareness meditation essentially is what I'm thinking about. The benefits of doing more open awareness meditation, which is something we frequently recommend folks to do before a psychedelic experience is just go out because you know you're gonna be in that state.

Like let's just be open to, all right, so go out into the world. And rather than the meditation of how do I quiet the mind, you're actually just noticing like, what are you noticing? I'm noticing the sky, the trees, the person walking the dog, right? And so that kind of building that awareness. And so if we could bring that into our sexuality of like, what am I noticing with this?

What am I noticing? And right. And then that that narrative pops up. Oh, I'm taking too long. I'm taking too, oh, okay. Back. What am I noticing? I'm noticing this. I'm noticing that. Right. And building more of that, like essentially awareness. Your somatic experience.

[00:57:31] Dr. Frankie: You just brought up psychedelics and I'm just, I'm thinking the other thing is like using that as an adjunct to just like help.

Facilitate and, you know, doing some journey work around it so that you can become, like, it will help build that muscle and it helps you move into a state of curiosity way quick, like Yeah. Expedited right way quicker.

[00:57:54] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:57:55] Dr. Frankie: You just dropped into it.

[00:57:57] Dr. Nicole: Yes, yes, yes. Yep.

[00:57:59] Dr. Frankie: Which we, it takes us so long on our own without any assistance to drop into that.

So this is why I am so grateful. I'm just almost like ecstatic about the fact that it's become, it's like mainstream. It's become a part of, you know, many people are aware of it. They're, they're talking about it. People that you would not have otherwise even thought would be open to it, are interested in it, engaging in it, telling their friends about it, and it's just amazing.

Mm-hmm. How it's opening people up and allowing them to. Love themselves and love others more deeply. Like, yeah. So when I think about sex and how a lot of us are kind of burdened in a way by our, you know, the messaging that society has given us, our families, our religion, our culture, all of that can maybe explore really a safe space, right?

Like somebody who's licensed a professional that like, you know, you trust and can guide you in this way. So you can drop into a space where it can like help you build that muscle even quicker.

[00:59:16] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Huge. Huge. Transformational. Transformational, life changing, right? And the right set and setting. There's so much work that you can do there to be able to explore.

And the reality is a lot of people also have sex on psychedelics. I think there are some that are more. Feasible to do that on versus others. Of course. Um, one of the ones that is a legal psychedelic, you know, cannabis, right? Mm-hmm. That's a huge one that a lot of people do play on, right? Um, I know people with MDMA, right?

For sure. For sure. Even psilocybin, right? And so obviously there's so much context there. I had a an amazing conversation with Britta Love years ago. Dear listener, if you can go back and we really got into the nitty gritty of, of safety and harm reduction around those things because the reality is there's so many moving pieces.

If sex itself is already complicated, we're adding an all. Whole nother variable. Um, that can bring so much risk and safety there. And also when you're in a safe environment, right? There is often a space of play that that can also bring when you're in that safe environment. Big, big, big asterisk, right? But that can also, um, really bring a lot of play into folks because it gets us out of our default mode network.

Mm-hmm. And so that alone, you know, kind, kind of in the same way that someone likes to take that one glass of wine before they go into sex. Right. 'cause it loosens some things up. There are also a space for that with psychedelics, where some people really report having a lot of more play in that space. Of course, with a huge risk and an asterisk of that.

But safe containers.

[01:00:47] Dr. Frankie: Yeah. Yes. I think it just gives you freedom, like you're not so in your frontal lobe.

[01:00:54] Dr. Nicole: Right. Right, exactly.

[01:00:55] Dr. Frankie: And you can just be, you know, feeling and connecting and open. It opens a pathway that. Is very hard to get to otherwise.

[01:01:06] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:01:07] Dr. Frankie: Absolutely. So, so life tra like life changing. I've certainly, I've had the experience of it with psilocybin and mm-hmm.

Um, yeah. I'm not trained in administering it as a psychologist in any way or anything like that, but I'm a big proponent, I think, especially with trauma and, you know, it's so restorative, so healing.

[01:01:28] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:01:29] Dr. Frankie: And there's a lot of, you know, sexual trauma that also, we didn't even touch on that, that, but

[01:01:34] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah.

[01:01:35] Dr. Frankie: It's a big part of it too, right? Like

[01:01:37] Dr. Nicole: absolutely

[01:01:38] Dr. Frankie: feeling disconnected from your body. Dissociating, depersonalizing, it's like, it's a, it's a deal. It's an automatic thing that happens and it's very hard to be present. We're talking about mindfulness and being present. If there's trauma that's not treated right, then like, people may be listening and like, well, I try that and it doesn't work.

And it's like, yeah, because. We've gotta treat the trauma so that you, it's, you work up to this, right? Mm-hmm. And you can, anybody, for anybody who's listening, you can absolutely

[01:02:09] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:02:09] Dr. Frankie: Repair and heal. And you know, I think with, um, journey work

[01:02:16] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[01:02:17] Dr. Frankie: It just, it makes like, it's like, I always say it's like 20 years of therapy.

Huge.

[01:02:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. And so integrating all of that is like, the biggest piece of that, right? Is like, how do we talk about that, integrate that into our lives? And Yeah. When I think about the trauma piece, I, I'm always just gonna shout this out, that your body is trying to keep yourself safe, right? Yeah. Because I know that's such a big piece for something I've experienced and also so many clients of like, why, and do I still feel this way?

Why is my body betraying me? It's like, actually your body's really trying to keep yourself safe.

[01:02:53] Dr. Frankie: Yeah.

[01:02:53] Dr. Nicole: Right? And so. In my own journey with psychedelics, I know I had mentioned like the sexual trauma all the way back from purity culture and that experience. I remember a psychedelic experience I had had, again, in the, the beauty of my, my small, tiny, uh, studio apartment in Chicago.

And I was laying on the floor naked. And what was coming to mind for me was why do I still feel fear in my body? I am safe. I am at home right now. No, like I've cleared off my calendar. Why am I still afraid? Huge experience for me then to just release that. And I don't think I knew how much I was holding until I was in that non-specific amplifier state of really feeling that tension in my body.

And so, yeah, there's some really transformative experiences when you're in a safe environment. Um, and when you have. You know, if you're ever doing a loan like myself now, I know there are things like Fireside where you can call, there's hotlines, you know, so you have support, you know, didn't know those things when I first was gone.

You know, you're just exploring. Um, but, uh, so much healing that you can do when you really reconnect. But as you said, there can be trauma that's so there at the front that needs to be discussed first. And so finding that safe container where you can be held in that, 'cause it can bring up a lot of content.

And I hear you withholding that distinction of the, um, the messy parts of healing too, right? Because I think so many people think, wow, psychedelics, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna play, I have this great time, I'm gonna heal. And the reality is that we both know is often it can be scary before it's bright,

[01:04:28] Dr. Frankie: right?

Right. Yes, yes. Mm-hmm. And it's a process, like most things, it's a process. It's not like a a, you know, one thing is gonna. Fix it all.

[01:04:39] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:40] Dr. Frankie: So it's like, this is, this is a tool, this is a way, you know, a part of it. And, you know, there are other things that we have to do, but it's definitely something to really consider, I think.

[01:04:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And one thing I wanted to mention earlier too, when we were talking about play and what it means to bring in more sensation during play, I love Betty Martin's, the Wheel of Consent. Yeah. Such a powerful piece. And, um, dear listener, there's an episode back in the catalog that you could go nerd out full, full detail on that one with her.

Um, and I think one of the. Important parts of that wheel is also finding pleasure in giving and what it means to do that. And so I think that so many of us like, yeah, I think about, you know, we're working on what does it mean to feel pleasure in the body and notice that for myself and also what does it mean to find pleasure in giving, right?

When you are sucking cock, what does it mean to not just be thinking about what the cock is feeling, but what are you feeling in your own mouth and the cheeks and all that sort of stuff on your tongue? Right? I feel like that's a whole neuronal pathway that so many of us, especially women, femmes, you, myself included, forget, we're often like givers and givers and givers, and that's beautiful too.

We want balance of receiving and also in the giving. Where's your pleasure in that too?

[01:06:05] Dr. Frankie: Yeah. Love that. Yes. Because there's plenty. Right. Many of us love to, I mean, that's a lot of it is the giving. Right. We focus on what we're giving and, but there's pleasure in it for us too, and I think if we're not paying attention, we miss out.

[01:06:22] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:06:23] Dr. Frankie: Un noticing the noticing of it. Mm-hmm.

[01:06:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:06:28] Dr. Frankie: All Also, what about the permission to even enjoy it?

[01:06:33] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:06:34] Dr. Frankie: And acknowledge that. Is that okay? Mm-hmm. To be like, you know, I love your cock, or I love to have your co, like, is that it feels more right? Like, I don't know, people feel, I, I get the sense in my work that there's a lot of discomfort around like.

[01:06:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:06:53] Dr. Frankie: Acknowledging right? Being like, yes, this is, I'm enjoying this too.

[01:06:57] Dr. Nicole: Right, right. I think a beautiful example of that is I just had my birthday and someone was like, oh, sex therapist, I'm gonna get you a sex game. I thought that was very sweet. And so we started to play the game, and it had a couple of questions.

It's like a card deck, you know, you're pulling cards. And a couple of times the answer was, uh, spit or swallow, and I said, spit swallow. What about linger? What about linger? Is anyone else lingering? No, no. It's just spit, swallow. Get that shit out of me. Like, okay. Like, you know what I like, it's, it's like, what is the paradigm that we're in here?

[01:07:33] Dr. Frankie: Exactly. Yeah. That's a good observation because yeah, it's like, it's all black and white, like

[01:07:39] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm. It

[01:07:40] Dr. Frankie: doesn't have to be that linear. It doesn't, there's more to it than that.

[01:07:45] Dr. Nicole: Right. But the game reflects the majority culture. Right. So I thought that was like a really good dichotomy and it's such like a like negative space.

[01:07:52] Dr. Frankie: Yes. Yes.

[01:07:54] Dr. Nicole: Uh uh. Mm-hmm. I feel like one thing that I have to mention in any good sex education talk is also lube. And I'm curious. Oh my God. I know. I was like, we can't, we can't let this conversation end with at least some discussion of lube and so curious what you say. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:08:13] Dr. Frankie: That's just here. It's what I say.

Love, love, love. Lube enhances so much. Hmm. So like, don't be afraid of it. Get a and different, like get a good quality lube. There are different types of lubes too for what you wanna, right. Like if you wanna have anal play mm-hmm. You wanna have a different viscosity.

[01:08:32] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:08:33] Dr. Frankie: The smoother and the juicier. And the wetter.

Right. Like there's less tension, less friction, feels great.

[01:08:41] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

[01:08:42] Dr. Frankie: Don't be afraid of it.

[01:08:44] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. So many of the narratives I feel like are, um, I'm broken. Right. Mm. Especially the vulva owner myself. Right. Is that something I struggle with a lot of? Like if I'm not wet, like I'm failing, I am broken, there's something wrong with me, or there's something wrong with my partnership.

Right. Oof. Yeah. It sounds

[01:09:07] Dr. Frankie: like, or your partner's thinking, well, you're not wet enough. What am I doing wrong? Are you not into me? You're not attracted to me.

[01:09:13] Dr. Nicole: Oh gosh.

[01:09:14] Dr. Frankie: Oh my gosh. It's like, uh, I can't control my wetness.

[01:09:20] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:09:22] Dr. Frankie: Yeah. Like hormonal, like everybody's different. Yeah. Some people get more wet than others.

Also, stress is gonna interfere with how wet you get. Right. So I, yeah, I think it should always be accessible. Yes. It should be in the nightstand wherever, like, and even if you're feeling like. Oh, I feel a little dry. Go ahead and get it. You know? Mm-hmm. And, and that your, even your partner has permission to even get it and no one, it's not like anybody is, needs to feel ashamed about it.

[01:09:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. My partners have all been clearly instructed, where I say always lube. I don't care how, what I am always lube more. I, I take Yeah.

[01:10:09] Dr. Frankie: Like, I dunno. What's the down, like, let's just talk about this for a second, like. Can you use too much lube?

[01:10:15] Dr. Nicole: Mm mm-hmm. Stain in the sheets for sure.

Oh, in the sheets? Because the silicone's hard to get out, you know, sometimes,

[01:10:22] Dr. Frankie: so I don't like silicone only because of sex toys. It ruin includes your silicone, your nice, expensive $300 dildos or whatever, vibrators. So, but the silicone lube too is better for anal sex, right? Mm-hmm. Hmm. It's like that just more viscous that Yep.

And it, it doesn't dry up so fast.

[01:10:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:10:41] Dr. Frankie: But yeah, it stains, that's right.

[01:10:42] Dr. Nicole: It does come out. But I have noticed some of my sheets have held, I was like, oh, okay, cool. Like, you know, reminders of a great time.

[01:10:49] Dr. Frankie: That's all right. Mm-hmm.

[01:10:50] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:10:53] Dr. Frankie: Yeah. I love that you brought that up. Um, yeah. I'm a big proponent Go for it.

And also just trying different ones, like

[01:11:00] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[01:11:01] Dr. Frankie: Yeah.

[01:11:01] Dr. Nicole: Yes. What a fun date night.

[01:11:04] Dr. Frankie: Yeah. Like, don't just go, what is it? Walgreens has the, is it Asher Glide?

[01:11:07] Dr. Nicole: Mm, sure. Yeah. Sure.

[01:11:09] Dr. Frankie: Whatever they have. Like one, maybe now they've got two or three, but like, go to a sex shop. Go online. Yeah. And go to like, there's so many great online shops.

Mm-hmm. And they have like 200 different lubes to choose from.

[01:11:24] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What, what a fun space of exploration. Let's try some penetration with this one. Let's try some penetration with this one. Let's see what resonates. And, and then even the play of every different night, like, maybe I want this one today on this one tomorrow.

Right. Like,

[01:11:39] Dr. Frankie: maybe I want heat tonight.

[01:11:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:11:41] Dr. Frankie: Don't some of them heat up?

[01:11:42] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Coconut oil great for that too. Yeah,

[01:11:45] Dr. Frankie: that's true. Yeah.

[01:11:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:11:49] Dr. Frankie: Many of us already have that in our cupboard.

[01:11:51] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. That's always the go-to. When I'm somewhere I forget. I'm like, do we have coconut

oil somewhere in this kitchen? You know, like,

[01:11:56] Dr. Frankie: yeah. I'm always talking about sex toys and lube and all that. It's like, why not? I mean, you don't. You know, even if you're somebody who's like, I like to be natural, go natural once in a while, it's kind of fun.

[01:12:09] Dr. Nicole: Sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I feel like I wanna ask you the question that I know the answer to, but I just don't think it can be stated enough.

Um, so doctor, I'm concerned if I start using the sex toy, am I gonna just become numb to anything else?

[01:12:25] Dr. Frankie: I love this question. Thank you for asking it.

[01:12:27] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. You know, you know that question?

[01:12:29] Dr. Frankie: Yeah, I do. I do. No. So the thing is, here a minute, just you, you can, if you overuse a vibrator and you're, say you're masturbating two, three times a day, I mean, I've had periods at that point myself and, um, you can kind of get a little desensitized, like the nerves can get a little sleepy.

Mm-hmm. I call 'em sleepy. They're kind of like, they get overstimulated and they get mm-hmm. Kind of desensitized for a small period. So if you, if you lay off of it. A little, or even get one that has a different vibration, change it up. It's just a, it's a, because it's got, it's got the same vibration for so much repetition, for so much time.

It can get a little numb, but it's not permanent temporary. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Take a break from it and then pick up, pick it up again, and you'll see that you're gonna be able to experience wonderful pleasure again. So don't be afraid of it. Mm-hmm. Use it. And if you start to get numb, okay, I need to, I need to take a maybe a week or two off.

Yeah. Or change it up.

[01:13:31] Dr. Nicole: Right. It's like a tolerance break for, because Right, like you take a tolerance break, you come back and you're like, whoa, okay. Right. And so, yeah, have some tolerance to come back and then really feel that stimulus again.

[01:13:43] Dr. Frankie: The other thing I wanna say, 'cause I know that sometimes this comes up too in my practice, which is, well, my husband is concerned that if I use a dildo or vibrator on my own that I'm not gonna desire him anymore, or that he's not gonna be able to.

Get me to climax or, you know what I mean? That I, basically, my toy is gonna replace him. And you know, I say, okay, like you've gotta sit, you gotta have a, this is where com you gotta talk, you gotta educate and talk it, talk it through and help them, them understand. I mean, we were not given the information, we were not educated and they don't know.

So explain.

[01:14:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:14:26] Dr. Frankie: No toy is gonna replace a person that you love and you're intimately connected to.

[01:14:33] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:14:34] Dr. Frankie: A device that has batteries isn't gonna replace that.

[01:14:38] Dr. Nicole: Yes. And there's some great toys that can fit while experiencing penetration.

[01:14:44] Dr. Frankie: Yes.

[01:14:44] Dr. Nicole: With that partner. Yes,

[01:14:46] Dr. Frankie: yes, yes. It just kind of elevates, it can make it exciting and different and interesting and not something that, I mean, you may wanna use it all the time.

And, and maybe it's just something you bring in once in a while and you do it together. Mm-hmm. So it's just, it's not gonna replace anybody.

[01:15:04] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I love like going like natural first orgasm and then after that bringing into like, that's such a fun, like, for me in terms of like keeping the sensitization like first fingers, then go like, oh, you know, and you can go so much more.

'cause vibrators are wild, you know?

[01:15:20] Dr. Frankie: Exactly.

[01:15:21] Dr. Nicole: Wild.

[01:15:22] Dr. Frankie: Yes.

[01:15:22] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:15:23] Dr. Frankie: And like, just slow down. Like we don't have, we're not, we don't have to rush to get to. Right. We're all trying to rush to get to climax. Yeah,

[01:15:29] Dr. Nicole: I know. I know.

[01:15:30] Dr. Frankie: Let's just hang out and be like, really explore and just be in it.

[01:15:38] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:15:39] Dr. Frankie: Not rush it.

Everything's rush, rush, rush, rush, rush. We're even breathing shallow brust. That's why I'm like in the top of our chest. 'cause we're all running, running, running, running.

[01:15:46] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:15:49] Dr. Frankie: Deep breath.

[01:15:51] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:15:52] Dr. Frankie: So it's so. Easy to say that and so hard to write, practice it. So, you know, it's just, we gotta be intentional.

[01:16:02] Dr. Nicole: Right? Absolutely. Absolutely. One of my favorite questions to ask on the podcast too is for, you know, like, you have so much wisdom and insight now at this point in your life. I'm curious if you'd have any words of wisdom to your younger self around sex and relationships.

[01:16:20] Dr. Frankie: Oh my gosh.

[01:16:21] Dr. Nicole: I know, right?

[01:16:23] Dr. Frankie: Oh, my younger self.

I, I feel for her so deeply. I think grace, like giving yourself grace and compassion, kindness. I, I was very hard on myself as a kid. Like I grew up with pretty, like in the fashion industry, grew up with. A lot of like, just, I was never tall and skinny with small, like, I was kind of, not large, but average build and uh mm-hmm.

So there was a lot of like body shaming. I would shame myself. And, um, so just my little self, my little Frankie would be, I would want her to, to know that she can, she doesn't have to be perfect and that she's beautiful just the way she is. And Yeah. And just to love oneself and know, like, I look at photos now and I'm like, I wish of myself back then.

Right. And I'm like, I didn't even realize that I was so pretty. I, no, I was too busy picking myself apart. And now I look, you know, you're talking about like 25, 35 years later you're like, I wish I had only known then what I know now when I look. You know? So that's what I would say.

[01:17:37] Dr. Nicole: Hmm, absolutely. What a beautiful invitation for self moving forward too.

Right? And the here and the now to keep that as well as when you look back and all of the listeners who can be inspired by that, and so much of what we spoke to with the neuronal Pathways is right there in that conversation too. Right? If you're constantly looking in the mirror of like, here's where I'm lacking, here's where I'm lacking, here's where I'm lacking, you're missing the beauty of everything else that is going on.

And I've definitely had like, it, it's an always an ongoing conversation. Of course there are days where sometimes you have that negative influence. It's gotten a lot better over the years, but I remember having a very like stern level conversation with myself in a loving way of like looking in the mirror and saying, are you gonna hate yourself for the rest of your life?

Mm-hmm. This is the only body you get. Yeah. Are you gonna spend your whole time hating it?

[01:18:26] Dr. Frankie: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:18:29] Dr. Nicole: Got it. Got it. Okay. Let's start a new narrative. Even if it's uncomfortable for sure. I'm gonna keep walking in that direction and making that pathway.

[01:18:37] Dr. Frankie: Yes, yes. Yeah. So important because there's plenty of messaging, right to the contrary, all around us that is telling us that we don't fit that idea of beauty.

[01:18:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Buy this product and you will be fixed.

[01:18:58] Dr. Frankie: Oh my gosh. It's the, it's like the largest, the cosmetic industry.

[01:19:01] Dr. Nicole: Oh, my heart,

[01:19:03] Dr. Frankie: I think is one of the largest in mo money makers.

[01:19:06] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:19:07] Dr. Frankie: Horrible.

[01:19:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:19:11] Dr. Frankie: What does that say about how we see and feel about ourselves?

[01:19:16] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely.

Taking a deep breath for that one. Yeah. Ugh.

[01:19:24] Dr. Frankie: Makes me sad. Of course. Mm. Like I can't even, I feel tearful, you know? Yeah. Because it sucks, you know? For women. For us women.

[01:19:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:19:34] Dr. Frankie: Not easy. Yeah. Yeah. And I thought for a while it was getting better and then like, I don't know. Then the Kardashians came on the scene.

Mm. Now we're going backwards, but we're all, I mean, the variety. Is what makes us all so beautiful.

[01:19:52] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:19:54] Dr. Frankie: The differences. Yes. Yes. We don't all wanna look like the same, like that wouldn't be interesting. So boring.

[01:20:02] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And as you reminded all of us having compassion for yourself, because as we're speaking to, there's so many systems that are quite literally profiting off of that insecurity, packaging that and selling it to you every single day.

And so when that thought comes in of judgment in the mirror, rather than going, why am I thinking this again? How about we point the arrow upward and say, right, I'm in a system, or This is what I'm constantly sold. This is not who I am authentically, I'm going in this direction. Right. That distance from that internalized system in our heads Yeah.

[01:20:35] Dr. Frankie: Because it's pulling on you and it's unconscious. You're not even like, it's, it's like you've gotta slow down and notice it because otherwise it's just an automatic thing. Because it's, it's a force that is, it's all around us.

[01:20:46] Dr. Nicole: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.

[01:20:49] Dr. Frankie: So like as a teenager, I didn't realize. Mm-hmm.

Like, I didn't realize, I didn't understand,

[01:20:56] Dr. Nicole: right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I'm so glad that you're able to speak to all of us now. Aw, right. I'm so glad. I'm so glad. And as we're coming towards the end of our time together, I wanna take a deep breath with you

and I wanna check in and see if there's anything else that you wanna share with the listeners. Otherwise, I have a closing question.

[01:21:21] Dr. Frankie: I just, I thank you all for being here with us today. I think we talked about so much and there was so. Really important thing, as I think came up and Dr. Nicole, you asked great questions. I love.

[01:21:34] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, thank you.

[01:21:35] Dr. Frankie: Yeah, so I'm just happy to be here with you all and whoever is tuning in, I'm just like, I applaud you for being here.

[01:21:41] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Sending so much love to that expansion process and that stretching that you're doing and being here is already the beginning of your journey in that

[01:21:50] Dr. Frankie: a hundred percent.

[01:21:51] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:21:52] Dr. Frankie: Yeah.

[01:21:53] Dr. Nicole: Wow. Amazing. So the closing question that I ask every guest is, I know, I know, and I swear, like I say this so many times that now I can't even say it like a normal human, you know what I mean? Like where you just say something too much. So I'm like, I'm always trying to be as natural as possible.

Whew. Um, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:22:17] Dr. Frankie: Oh my gosh.

[01:22:18] Dr. Nicole: I know

[01:22:20] Dr. Frankie: that I wish other people knew that was more normal.

[01:22:24] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:22:26] Dr. Frankie: I think that people's, because we're talking about sex, they're their most outland, whatever, craziest thoughts. Oh, yeah. Or fantasies are actually pretty common.

You're thinking, oh my gosh, what is wrong with me? That I'm thinking this way about this sex act, or about this curiosity or whatever. It's like, oh no, you're not alone.

[01:22:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:22:54] Dr. Frankie: But how would you know? Because people don't talk about it. Right. So you feel like you're the only one.

[01:22:59] Dr. Nicole: Right. Absolutely. Absolutely.

I remember having Dr. Elizabeth Shef on the podcast, who, another great one, dear listener, to go all the way back to. And she, um, does expert, uh, witness testimony work for kink cases. Oh, interesting, interesting. So she's seen some crazy, crazy stories in there. And so I was advocating for BDSM and all of that.

And also I think she had quoted some research of like BDSM fantasies being in like 70 to 80% of people. Yeah.

[01:23:31] Dr. Frankie: I'm not surprised. Yeah. Yeah. That would've been my guess. Yeah.

[01:23:38] Dr. Nicole: And so much shame people have around that fantasy of being tied up or fucked in a dungeon, you know? And so we're holding all of that and yet it is so, so normal.

[01:23:49] Dr. Frankie: So normal. And I wanna say one more thing about this.

[01:23:51] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[01:23:52] Dr. Frankie: My number one most popular. Video on YouTube is about anal sex.

[01:23:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:23:58] Dr. Frankie: And the comments are insane. The criticism, the trolling, the this and that. Meanwhile, it is the most popular video, and I've been doing it 17 years videos. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So you're just like, okay, all this negativity coming my way, but everybody's watching it.

[01:24:18] Dr. Nicole: Uhhuh, uhhuh, uhhuh. There you go. Absolutely. The cognitive dissonance, there is a great term to describe what's going on there. Right. Tell me about it, but don't.

[01:24:28] Dr. Frankie: Right, and you're nasty for talking about it. What kind of doctor are you, but you're not a doctor.

[01:24:34] Dr. Nicole: Tell me more about it, please.

Oh, well it's been such a joy to have you on the podcast today. Thank you, Dr. Frankie. Thank you for joining me and all of the listeners.

[01:24:45] Dr. Frankie: Thank you so much. Yeah.

[01:24:47] Dr. Nicole: I'm sure everyone is dying to know where can they find your content? Your videos plug away all of your resources, please.

[01:24:54] Dr. Frankie: Uh, I don't, Dr. Frankie Bashan.

I've got a YouTube channel. I've got Facebook and Instagram and TikTok. I've got all the things you can just search Dr. Frankie little gay book. Find me that way. Yeah.

[01:25:08] Dr. Nicole: Amazing.

[01:25:08] Dr. Frankie: I've been around a little while.

[01:25:09] Dr. Nicole: Hell yes, hell yes. And I'll have all that linked in the show notes below dear listeners, so you can just go find all of that right there.

So thank you again for joining me.

[01:25:18] Dr. Frankie: Thank you so much for having me.

[01:25:20] Dr. Nicole: Such a pleasure.

Dear Listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Modern Anarchy. Thank you for sharing this episode with your friends, with your lovers, with your community. Truly, it means so much to me and I am so grateful that you are here.

If you are wanting to release jealousy in your nonmonogamous dynamics and step into a compersion and pleasure filled connection, you can read my book, the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide. For free on my website. There you'll also find so many other free resources, including worksheets on how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non-monogamous dynamics and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure filled sex and relationships.

So head on over to modern Anarchy podcast.com to find all of those free resources, and I look forward to seeing you next week.