257. The Voice of a Liberated Orgasm with Dr. Jen

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Dr. Jen join us for a conversation about building the courage and skills needed to talk about sexual pleasure. Together we talk about expanding our comfort zone. Habituation in long-term relationships and cross-cultural sex education. Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.

I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, author of the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and founder of The Pleasure Practice, where I support individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships.

Dear listener, did you know that I have Fat Cat on my lap right now? I'm in the studio and she is on my lap. She is puring. She's puring very gently. I wish that this mic could pick it up. Fat Cat. You gotta tell them how happy you are to be on my lap. In the recording studio. Oh dear listener, this episode is so powerful, man.

Anytime I get to talk to people that our disgusting cross-cultural sex education Mm. Ah, chef's kiss, like, dear listener, there's so much to learn here. Okay. You know, I talk all day long about our psychology and what's really profound to know about our psychology is that we are impacted by our relationships around us.

Yes, our relationships to culture, and it is on a unconscious. Deep, deep level. And so there's so much enlightenment when we study across cultures to realize the variations of the different patterns, the desires, the things that we crave. And so I am so excited to be bringing this episode to you, dear listener, all about what it means to have the voice of a liberated orgasm.

Alright, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, I'm gonna explore my offerings and free resources@modernanarchypodcast.com. Linked in the show notes below. Dear Listener, that is also where you find all the information about my upcoming free workshop, queering Psychedelics, the set setting, and sacred joy in queer community.

If you are queer, if you are doing psychedelics. This is the workshop for you. We are meeting on Zoom, okay, on a Saturday from 10:30 AM to 12:00 PM Central standard time, and so many of you have already signed up. I know we have 300 tickets available. It is on Zoom, so there's a limit to how many people can come into that space, but so many of you have been sharing this with your friends, with your community, with your lovers, and I'm so, so delighted to be welcoming all of you into this upcoming workshop and to really talk about what it means to have pleasurable queer psychedelic experiences.

If you wanna learn more, that is also on modern anarchy podcast.com, and I'll have the links down below in the show notes for you. And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters, you are supporting the long-term sustainability of the podcast. Keeping this content free and accessible.

So thank you. And with that dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode.

Dear Listener, there's a space already waiting for you where you are invited to let go of every old script about Sack. And relationships and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure, empowerment, and deep alignment. I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real trans. Formation possible, and I'll be right there with you. Guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure and visit modern anarchy podcast.com/pleasure practice to apply.

And so the first question that I ask each guest on the show is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:05:32] Dr. Jen: A I am, I go by Dr. Jen, uh, the doctor. Part of that is my PhD in sociology and, um, which really frames a lot of my work and how, um, I view the world and was trained to view the world just through the lens of groups of people and patterns of behavior.

And, um, my specialty area in sociology was around. Marriage and relationships and sex and sexual health and yeah. And so with that, I've gone on and I've had a private coaching practice for 17 years doing relationship and intimacy coaching. Um, but my real passion all along is the public speaking. Getting people together in groups to talk about these uncomfortable, vulnerable, taboo topics that are some of our most important topics, whether emotional intimacy or sexual intimacy and, uh, letting people know it's okay to laugh together and be awkward together.

So, um, yeah, and there's lots of other stuff, but that's a good overview.

[00:06:33] Dr. Nicole: Well, uh, it's such a joy to have you on the podcast today. Thank you. I'm so excited because, uh, cross-cultural research, I think is one of the most liberating things around sexuality in my. Opinion.

[00:06:47] Dr. Jen: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, both like comparing the, the US culture in general to other societies and cultures currently and over time,

[00:06:56] Dr. Nicole: yes.

[00:06:57] Dr. Jen: But also all of the subcultures within the United States and you know, and I, I. Travel around the United States and around the world, public speaking on sex and intimacy and marriage topics. But within the US there's so much variety in how I shift up what I'm speaking, or the people that are like challenge us, push us out of our comfort zone.

We wanna go to the edge. And then other audience. That are like, this is gonna be classy. Right. That's their main concern.

[00:07:22] Dr. Nicole: Where are my pearls? Where are my pearls?

[00:07:24] Dr. Jen: There's a lot of, there's a fair amount of collection of the pearls in Texas. Yeah. Mm-hmm. But they, but they wanna talk about these topics and they appreciate them and they push themselves out of their comfort zones.

And that's, you know, the most I can ask for any of us. Can we, are we willing to be a little, are we willing to be a little awkward and a little uncomfortable to have the conversations that we want to have or need to have, but have been avoiding?

[00:07:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. I can already tell we're gonna go so deep with this one.

Before we go there, I wanna ask you, what was your personal journey to getting to this space? How did you become so fired up about sexual liberation?

[00:08:04] Dr. Jen: Yeah, it, so I was raised in a small town in Pennsylvania, outside Philadelphia, was raised Catholic. We great, great family parents still together. They actually, yesterday was their 58th wedding anniversary.

Aww. Which is amazing. So just really grateful for that stability. Um, but we did not, we didn't talk about sex, uh, almost at all. And the sex education wasn't so great. And this was, you know, primarily in the eighties. So I went to college and, uh, my roommate my sophomore year joined the sexual health peer educators where you get to go around to the dorms and do condom demonstrations and safer sex talks and uh, healthy relationships.

And she was having such a good time in the group and she was also learning public speaking skills, which actually was one of my motivations. Because I would be so nervous. Those group presentations at the end of the semester, we had to give in college, I would just be so anxious and some classes even anxious to raise my hand and I thought, well, if I can get public speaking skills and if you could stand up and talk about sex in front of people, you could probably talk about anything.

But here I'm 32 years later and I just never stopped talking about sex. Mm-hmm. Amazing. So, and one of the things that really hooked me a couple things, one was how much fear and shame. There is how much misinformation there is and how interesting, and from a sociological view, gender power dynamics about how we're, how we're raised differently.

We also sometimes feel emotions differently or have different needs, but we're really not, we don't get good education around that. And it's, it's tough to know it for ourselves, let alone to communicate it to a partner and then let alone in the moment with sort of the power dynamics of like, and this was college students, so it's like, should we use, can we put a condom on or not?

Can I ask to use a condom? I know that was kind of the basic sort of point of contention, um, for a lot of folks then. So anyway, yeah. So it, it hooked me and I became really fascinated and realized there was so much. Um, you know, I became comfortable talking about it and realized that that was so, you know, I could bring that to any space I came to.

Yeah. Which then gave permission for people to talk about things that matter to them or things that they're interested in learning more about, or things they're struggling with, but they're afraid of being judged or stigmatized or shamed or just don't have a space to get accurate information. Mm-hmm. So here I am, 32 years later, pretty much every space I go into.

Oh yes. People like, I play beach volleyball every Saturday, mostly with a bunch of guys. And people will absolutely make more sexual jokes or bring up sexual conversations and uh, and somebody will be like, oh, did Jen start this conversation? I was like, dude, I didn't start it at all. I haven't said a word.

I was like, I think just my presence helps facilitate it. But that's lovely. I, I. I love that. I love playing that role.

[00:10:56] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I hear you. I hear you in so many different ways. Uh, the people that will come up to me and be like, Nicole, I had my first threesome. I'm like, that's so great. Like, we've never talked about this before, but thanks for telling me.

Thanks for knowing. I'm the person that you could tell that too.

[00:11:12] Dr. Jen: Like, yeah, a lot of people are like, can I show you pictures? It's not, it's I'll, I'll, I'll cover, I've, I'm covered enough, but can I show? And I was like, sure. Because they're like, so proud of what they've done. Can I show you me at my first, you know, dungeon up on a St.

Andrew's cross? I was like, yeah, that's awesome. Good for you. And I'm always like, oh, I don't know if I needed to see that. Sure. But they're so proud and I know I like want to be that safe space.

[00:11:38] Dr. Nicole: Of course, of course. I know the cat. That cat.

[00:11:42] Dr. Jen: I know. What's your cat's name?

[00:11:43] Dr. Nicole: Fat Cat.

[00:11:44] Dr. Jen: Fat Cat?

[00:11:45] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:11:47] Dr. Jen: Oh, I love fat Cat.

[00:11:48] Dr. Nicole: And she's not even fat. She's very petite, but she is the co-host of Modern Anarchy, so. Yay. So she loves to come in.

[00:11:55] Dr. Jen: Cat's pretty perfect.

[00:11:56] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. I know right now it all adds up.

[00:11:58] Dr. Jen: It adds up.

See what we're doing here.

[00:12:01] Dr. Nicole: I didn't plan that

[00:12:02] Dr. Jen: for this.

[00:12:02] Dr. Nicole: I didn't plan this. I fostered and then she stayed, you know?

[00:12:06] Dr. Jen: Yeah,

[00:12:07] Dr. Nicole: yeah, yeah.

[00:12:08] Dr. Jen: Oh, that's lovely.

[00:12:09] Dr. Nicole: So,

[00:12:09] Dr. Jen: yeah.

[00:12:10] Dr. Nicole: Um. But yeah, I hear you. And, and as a psychotherapist, I think about how, at least the frame that I was trained in would say that our suffering comes from disconnection.

[00:12:20] Dr. Jen: Mm mm-hmm.

[00:12:21] Dr. Nicole: Whether it's from, you know, systems of oppression that cause that to our interpersonal relationships.

Mm-hmm. It's all connected and. Sexuality is one of the top suffering points for people. Yeah. Yeah. And also one of the most difficult things to start a conversation with. Mm-hmm. Even with a therapist mm-hmm. In this super confidential, safe, I know space and it's still hard, right? And so when you hold that space for folks, that connection is healing in so many different ways.

[00:12:53] Dr. Jen: Yeah. Thank you. That's lovely. Yeah, and I was thinking too, over the years, the number of folks that have come to me and they're like, well, we have a, we have a couples therapist, but we don't feel comfortable bringing up sex with her. And I was like, dude, like you should, like, that's, you should be able to, but they very well may be reading something in that person.

Oh right. But that person isn't comfortable with it. So I think often they're, they truly are picking up on something. And the thing is, if their therapist or counselor isn't asking questions about their sex lives, right, they probably aren't comfortable with those topics. They probably are avoiding it, so.

Mm-hmm. Yeah,

[00:13:30] Dr. Nicole: absolutely. The listeners couldn't see my face of just jaw drop when you said that. You know, like, mm-hmm. That's so wild. That's a huge part of couples therapy.

[00:13:39] Dr. Jen: I like, I think, I think it's changing, you know, 'cause I've been doing this for so long in the past 17 years that I've been a coach, there has been a lot of shifts.

But when I started, I. I feel like in San Diego, I know I was one of the, sort of the few safe. Truly non-judgmental spaces that folks were gonna find around these topics that they knew that they could show up with any, I, I'm like, I don't care if you're queer, kink, poly, whatever, like this, if everybody's consenting, like, and you, and you've got some issues that you are, you know, wanna be vulnerable and work through, great.

Come. Come, let's do it. Mm-hmm. So, um, but that's definitely changed a ton, um, in the past 17 years, which is lovely. So it's so much more part of our public discourse and normalized to talk in general about these topics can certainly work with professionals around these topics. So thank goodness.

[00:14:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Five years of a doctor in clinical psych and no training on sex though. So careful. No dear listener. Careful dear listener. Yeah, I didn't get still no, my nothing. Yeah, there was nothing in my training on sexuality at all.

[00:14:41] Dr. Jen: Oh my gosh.

[00:14:42] Dr. Nicole: I think the most we ever touched on it was in a diversity course and it was, you know, one piece of diversity and that was it.

[00:14:50] Dr. Jen: Oh geez.

[00:14:50] Dr. Nicole: So you have to, that every single psychologist who's coming out doesn't have a single requirement. I know it can change per state. Stunning. Too stunning. Like I know California does have it where you're at. Yeah. Illinois does not have that as a requirement, so. There's a bit of wisdom there.

[00:15:05] Dr. Jen: Oh, that's super disappointing.

Yeah. Wow.

[00:15:08] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. So as you said, having discernment, right. You can feel when the clinician is uncomfortable about that. And if that's the case, find another person, find another coach, another healer, someone

[00:15:19] Dr. Jen: you can bring all of of you to your sessions.

[00:15:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Were you given abstinence only education or what was your sex ed like?

[00:15:28] Dr. Jen: We didn't get that. Yeah, so this was in Malvern, Pennsylvania in the eighties. We, it was very, no, we did, I mean, we did to the credit of Pennsylvania in the eighties, like we got sex ed, but it was very, it wasn't abstinence only. We got some birth control anatomy stuff, but it was just that very sort of disconnected that, that that disconnected clinical version of it that I, I never really understood how it connected to me.

Mm-hmm. Um, and there. Really did have more of that vibe of like, oh, sex and pleasure desire is all in the boys' realm or in the men's realm. Yeah. There was definitely no understanding or reference to it to girls or women's experiences of our bodies. Or, or, or sexual experience. Sexual desire, sexual pleasure was definitely not a part of it.

And the one thing that was absolutely missing from the curriculum was the clitoris. Mm. So I did not learn about the clitoris till I was 18 with my first boyfriend, who thankfully did know that I had a clitoris.

[00:16:26] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. So you's got more nerve endings in the penis. How are we missing out on this?

[00:16:31] Dr. Jen: I know, I know.

[00:16:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Oh, gosh, gosh, gosh. Well, yeah, for me, I did have abstinence only education. Right. It was the paper test. Uh, and it was horrific. And I know that, that that's what led for me my first sexual experience to the sobbing. That deeply occurred afterwards. Oh, yeah. Which I,

[00:16:55] Dr. Jen: yeah.

[00:16:56] Dr. Nicole: Would I have this podcast if I didn't go down that path?

[00:16:59] Dr. Jen: There you go.

[00:16:59] Dr. Nicole: Probably not. I would've been like a pottery designer just hanging out, you know? But instead the universe.

[00:17:05] Dr. Jen: Yeah.

[00:17:06] Dr. Nicole: I'm curious for you, how do you think that. Disconnect in your education impact some of your first sexual experiences?

[00:17:14] Dr. Jen: Yeah. So first of all, and I am really grateful. I was one, I was a late bloomer.

[00:17:19] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:17:20] Dr. Jen: And I'm really glad I was, uh, so I never, I didn't get my period till I was almost 16 Mm. Um, so I wasn't really interested in boys till like later high school or they, you know, there was some interest directed towards me. And I was like, I, I don't know what to do with this. And it was just scary. It all felt scary.

Mm. So, and I'm grateful for that actually. And yeah, and I, I think because of that then when I started having some sexual experiences, not till like 17 really, 18, I had a stronger sense of myself and boundaries already. And Yeah. And then, you know, it was only a few years after that, then I was in college and then I started becoming a sexual health peer educator.

So it was normal to me to talk about these topics. And it was normal to me that nobody. Should ever make me do anything I don't wanna do. Yeah, good. And of course, if I don't wanna do something, I have the right to say no. Yeah. So thankfully, um, I, despite not having great education and not really knowing my own pleasure and being a late bloomer, when I started exploring and getting into that, I, I just was more, was more of an adult actually.

Mm-hmm. And I'm just, I'm really, I mean, it made me not cool at all. And, but, but it, you know, it also protected me because by the time I was becoming a sexual woman, I just had more, you know, developed prefrontal cortex. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Basically, and sense of self and confidence. So, yeah. And, and thankfully then, you know, when I started learning, so this was like 93 when I became a sexual health peer educator.

Mm-hmm. It was in the AIDS epidemic. Mm. And it was the early nineties that they realized like, oh shit, college students could also get hiv aids. We better be educating them around that. And we better. Teach them something called outer course. Mm-hmm. So how do you have a fun sexual encounter with pleasure, but not have the main exchange of fluids through intercourse?

Mm-hmm. Or any, anything penetrative.

[00:19:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:19:23] Dr. Jen: So I immediately, my introduction to sex in that way was all creativity and was all thinking outside the box. Yeah. Which has been great. Which has been so great for my pleasure and for exploration and for then having a private practice and helping clients think outside the box.

Right. So I was, you know, started learning this stuff and teaching about it when I was 20, so like 32 years ago already. So I think I am, I, I got. You know, a a combination of factors thankfully, kind of protected me otherwise. 'cause if I had, you know, gotten my period at 11 and, and had a sex drive and desire already, oh God, I would've not had a good head on my shoulders.

Mm-hmm. Um, probably would've gone along with a lot of things I didn't wanna do. Mm-hmm. Or like wanted to be liked and mm-hmm. Um, and just gone along with things. So I, yeah. I avoided that plus like, I didn't start drinking till I was maybe 25, like in grad school. Wow. Again, because it just didn't feel right for me.

Mm-hmm. And I, everybody was doing it and I was like, it doesn't taste good and it doesn't feel good. So there was a lot of, um, really not giving into peer pressure and not being cool. Mm-hmm. But thankfully to like really listening to my own. Inner sense of self and what was right for me, which is interesting.

'cause that wasn't mm-hmm. Wasn't instilled in me or taught to me. Yeah. It was just, I just feel lucky actually. 'cause I, I don't, you know, that I don't, that wasn't of my own doing to end up with that confidence. Yeah. Um, and sense of self, so.

[00:20:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Any good role models that you could think of during that time?

[00:20:58] Dr. Jen: No, that's the thing.

[00:20:58] Dr. Nicole: It's not like, that's my next thought is like, right.

[00:21:00] Dr. Jen: No, I know. It's interesting. I was just thinking about it for myself.

[00:21:03] Dr. Nicole: Not that I can't be innate. Maybe I can just give that to you too, but like, we're so relational. I was like, is there a model?

[00:21:08] Dr. Jen: Right. I think it, I. Yeah. I, part of it is probably playing sports growing up.

Sure. Starting at age eight, and that is the thing of being, feeling strong in my body. Yeah. And a confidence and a sense of self and communicating in that way. I really do think, yeah. Like I said, it's the late bloomer thing. It was a, you know, a stable, loving childhood. Yeah. And, um, but I mean, we never talked about boundaries.

Sure. It wasn't talked about, like not, sex wasn't talked about. Yeah. None of it was, there's just something about a sense of self. Yeah. I just think it's a, a lucky combination of factors. Totally. Because that's the thing I wish. I wish I could, you know, break apart the pieces and be like, this is how I constructed this when I was 16.

And here you could do the same thing thing do. Yeah. But some of it is, it's just luck.

[00:21:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. I hear you. And even sports is a good too,

[00:21:57] Dr. Jen: but yeah, I do. Probably there is a strong sense of that. Yeah.

[00:22:01] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. 'cause you have to be embodied and as an athlete mm-hmm. You know, this is where my boundary is, or I'm gonna get hurt if I keep pushing it with this practice.

Right. Yeah. And so I'm so glad that you had that because I do think, as you said, being able to in the classroom talk about sexuality, that requires a certain level of confidence. Yeah. When you're with your partners to share, um, what you want in that moment, that requires a certain level of confidence that translates all the way across.

And I'll tell you, when I was in my training, there was like two topics that would always shift the tone of the room, and it was definitely sex and psychedelics. Anytime I brought those into the classroom, everyone kind of like tensed up. I was like, Ooh, what's up with this? That you shift and you can feel it in the room.

Oh.

[00:22:46] Dr. Jen: Right. So interesting. Yep.

[00:22:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:48] Dr. Jen: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:22:48] Dr. Nicole: It's like everyone holds their breath for

[00:22:50] Dr. Jen: good for you

[00:22:50] Dr. Nicole: a second. Thank you.

[00:22:50] Dr. Jen: You're like, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna drop plant this little seed and see what grows here.

[00:22:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. They'd be like, oh,

[00:22:56] Dr. Jen: you have to do drop this bomb.

[00:22:58] Dr. Nicole: Right. They'd be like, here's a, uh, topic. Do a presentation.

I'm like, pelvic floor therapy. Oh, here's this other things that I was just like bringing it, bringing it, and so everyone knew me as the sex girl, you know?

[00:23:08] Dr. Jen: oh so good

[00:23:10] Dr. Nicole: like, yeah, yeah.

[00:23:10] Dr. Jen: That's good. So, yeah. But the service you did to them, no doubt what they gained. Thank in comfort and normalizing and topics they learned.

That's awesome. Good for you for being that person.

[00:23:18] Dr. Nicole: I appreciate that. I appreciate that. Truly, we need more people. Doing this work.

[00:23:24] Dr. Jen: Yeah.

[00:23:25] Dr. Nicole: Because, yeah, I think about the bodily autonomy and the way that the, again, that translates to so many other areas of your life. My voice was so small and now truly, I mean, it's not all about orgasm, but the harder I orgasm, the stronger my voice becomes.

Oh, interesting. And even that true is a voice experience. Right. The more I let that pleasure truly come out of my body, the more I am embodied, the more I stand tall and I'll growl, laugh, cry with more force.

[00:23:55] Dr. Jen: That's awesome. That's awesome. So it's just sort of like the floodgates open to your, dropping into your authenticity, uh, leading through like sound and voice.

That's awesome. Mm-hmm. And pleasure.

[00:24:06] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I did appreciate that. I was reading one book called In a Different Voice. Forgive me, I forget The feminist writer. She would talk about how women's voices changed in groups depending on where they're at, and quite literally the sound of that.

And even when you think about the sixties, let's think about women's voice. Hi, I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is what I do. Right. Versus like that deeper. So I've always been curious about, you know, orgasm and pleasure and, and the breadth that is required in that. Mm-hmm. And how that could be constricted if your voice all day long is in such a tight space.

[00:24:44] Dr. Jen: That's so interesting. That is interesting. Yeah. Because I know there's been research connection between our mouth and our throat and our genital areas and all, and like connections between like opening them up together. I feel like there's some interesting research around that, but I, I think there's also just this like.

Um, this normalizing of us being louder and taking up more space and, and focusing on our pleasure and release in that way, like all of that, the more we get comfortable doing that and normalize doing that and normalize being witnessed in that way, I feel like that carries over to all of our, the rest of our lives.

[00:25:25] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think one tricky area. Is masturbation and mm-hmm. Self pleasure. I am such a big fan of people building their own creative solo pleasure practice. Yeah. And also, I know, you know, my internship year was in Indiana, in Gary, Indiana. Right. And so I was working with a much more conservative folks Yeah.

And on sex topics. And so I knew that that wasn't always something that I could even really touch. I would try, and then there was a lot of pushback and obviously I'm not gonna push my own ideas.

[00:26:03] Dr. Jen: Yeah.

[00:26:03] Dr. Nicole: Right. Um, but I'm curious for you, like you, you mentioned even Texas, like how do you navigate?

[00:26:09] Dr. Jen: Mm.

[00:26:10] Dr. Nicole: How do you navigate?

For me that feels like such an essential part of this, of, of being able to quite literally touch yourself and know your own pleasure and know that, uh, how do you navigate the cultural sensitivity across so many spaces as you started with.

[00:26:24] Dr. Jen: Yeah. You mean specifically around masturbation topics or? Sure.

Let's just, there, let's there, yeah. So I would say masturbation is more a topic I talk about. Um, like when I'm working with college students mm-hmm. And talking to them. Um, one of the main audiences that I work with at this point is actually high level CEOs and their spouses and partners.

[00:26:43] Dr. Nicole: Oh, sure.

[00:26:44] Dr. Jen: So it's a very unique space that I feel really lucky I've gotten into, um, especially in my unique field, so much less likely to talk about masturbation just in those groups at all.

Oh. Um, 'cause they tend to be in long term relationships and there's just, you know, I only have a limited amount of time. There's other topics that are more important to focus on in those spaces. I will though often try to figure out how to work in like a masturbation joke. You know, one of, there's certain audiences, um, like southern audiences.

I will do more in the beginning of talking about. This is awkward, this is uncomfortable. And that's okay. We're all feeling that we're all in the same boat. What I encourage to each of you is to sit and find what you know, study where your own comfort zone is and how do you just lean a little bit outside of that for today and you might notice your heart pounding a little bit or getting a little warm play in that space for yourself.

And because that is, that, that is where growth and juiciness and happiness and true intimacy really is, and where it lies when we're able to get outta that. So I'll spend more time sort of encouraging that, but I truly, I do that with any audience. 'cause there's always, you know, I'm gonna have a mixed bag.

I'll always have people that are like. You know, you know, go to swingers clubs and other folks who really never talk about these topics. And my audiences range like with the CEOs and their spouse partners. It could be somebody who's 30 to somebody who's 82 mm. And sometimes they're all mixed in the same audience.

Mm-hmm. Really different generations. And, um, so I've just, because I've been doing this for so long, I've figured out what, like what are the fundamental underlying things that will connect to all ages, audiences, and comfort levels, but so everybody is. Uh, getting skills and ideas, and even if they're super comfortable with this, they're still gonna get a little gem.

They're gonna get a little nugget, a little something. Yeah. Uh, to be able to take home and to try differently. So, yeah. And then I, I use humor, I will use, right. If I'm going to an audience that I believe is more conservative, I will literally say, I'm like, okay, we're gonna do some cheesy sex jokes here.

Because, because I like 'em and because I know this is uncomfortable, but it's okay that we all laugh together. Yeah. And so I will just like, call it all out good. And then, you know, use humor, show people we can laugh and be silly. And, and that's good. And it opens up that space. And then I love, by the time I get to that, you know, the end of the talk and folks are, you know, yelling jokes out at times and stuff and it's great.

Yeah. You know, like, that's perfect. I mean, granted, there're usually a few drinks in by then, which helps, but still, you know, we're normalizing these topics, so

[00:29:19] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. What a immense skill you have when you're traversing so many different cultures, generations, frameworks. That's a very, yeah.

Nuanced skill. Truly.

[00:29:30] Dr. Jen: Thank you, Uhhuh. I think between, you know, having my PhD in sociology and so I was just so steeped for years into viewing these topics and viewing people right as being. Exposed to different sociocultural political geographic beliefs around sex and marriage. Mm-hmm. And so it's so much in how I view things.

Um, plus it really does help. And I've, I noticed this change. You know, I mentioned I'm 52 now. I've noticed this change once I got into my fifties because, you know, I've looked at our, our field in the sex field and I was like, why does it seem that, like Dr. Ruth didn't make it till like her sixties or something?

Esther Perel, I think, till she really hit her stride was like mid to late fifties. And I was like, what is it, is there something easier to, something about, about this field? Are we only comfortable with older women talking about these stuff?

[00:30:19] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:30:19] Dr. Jen: About, or older women with heavy accents.

[00:30:21] Dr. Nicole: Yes. I'm talking to that one too.

[00:30:23] Dr. Jen: I know, I know. I've, yes, I've sociological. I was like, oh, this is very interesting to look at. Yeah. But I have noticed there is a. There is a, an aspect of wisdom that having th you know, 32 years that I've been talking about these topics and studying them also, I have seen so much cultural shifts. Plus in that time period in college and grad school, I was also learning about the fifties, the sixties, the seventies, like all of it leading up to a plus earlier, uh, feminist movements and suffrage movements and social movements in, in US society.

So there's just been, I have such a, a depth and a breadth of understanding, and so much of it lives in me now, having experienced it for so many years Yeah. While watching it and, and noticing patterns. So I do feel like there is something in the fifties that I was like, oh, this is, this is the word wisdom.

Mm. I was like, oh, oh, it, it really feels different and there's a confidence around it. So I was like, oh, maybe that's part of it around this field that there is something of experiencing enough things. Yeah. Um, and, and witnessing all these shifts in society. So anyway, just a thought.

[00:31:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Aging like fine wine, right?

Like we're getting richer every day through experience, right? Every trip is more wisdom. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think about Dr. Ruth, uh, I watched one of her documentaries that she had out. And one of the most fascinating pieces of that was they had a listener write in a letter, and one of the letters was about what Dr.

Ruth did when she was younger. And it was essentially aen, uh, asking if, I think she had sex before marriage or something. Something, something. And she essentially said, well, I had multiple children, so something happened That's, and my heart just dropped. I was like, my God, you are making a sex documentary and you couldn't

[00:32:18] Dr. Jen: ah,

[00:32:18] Dr. Nicole: possibly say I had sex.

Oh, that's interesting. Even for procreative sex.

[00:32:24] Dr. Jen: Right.

[00:32:24] Dr. Nicole: You know, sex for a Pleasure. I can understand how that was tricky for the time, but like you had children.

[00:32:30] Dr. Jen: So you don't think she was just making a joke? You think there was actual something?

[00:32:34] Dr. Nicole: I feel like even if that's a joke, that's not funny to me.

Right. Yeah. Because I'm like, you had sex. Yeah. Great. Like, like why do we have to put that as the joke? Like make it about the orgasms you had during it, you know, like

[00:32:46] Dr. Jen: Right. Sure.

[00:32:47] Dr. Nicole: Push the edge there with that.

[00:32:49] Dr. Jen: That's interesting. Yeah.

[00:32:50] Dr. Nicole: So I was just so like, and I understand like, thank you Dr. Ruth, like gratitude for the way that she paved so much of

[00:32:57] Dr. Jen: She really did for us.

Yeah.

[00:32:58] Dr. Nicole: Yes. And also then being able to see like the limitations. Yeah. Right there. I was like, damn. Oh,

[00:33:04] Dr. Jen: I was her the fourth edition of her, um, sex for Dummies books. I mean, 'cause what She passed away like two years ago.

[00:33:11] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:33:12] Dr. Jen: So, and I think this was maybe like. Six years ago or something. I was asked to be the technical editor for her, the fourth edition of, wow, congratulations.

Yeah. Thank you for her. Uh, unfortunately I never had to talk with her. 'cause apparently they, they had like multiple levels. They're like, yeah, no, you'll probably never talk to her. She's got multiple levels in between her. But the main thing. Uh, 'cause they wanted an updated version of it, specifically for, so this was probably six years ago or something.

I think they were targeting like millennials. Mm-hmm. But her views were so old school on consent. And I kept, I kept, you know, adding notes in the margin saying, Hey, if you really wanna target a younger generation, I go, this is offensive. Yeah. Women and girls keep getting blamed

[00:33:56] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:33:56] Dr. Jen: For, you know, being attractive or taking their top off that then the boys or the men can't help themselves.

And that really was the messaging. Ugh. And so I was like, this is not you. This, you can't, like, you can't have this in a book at this point and not with your name and all. And so I kept, you know, at various times I was like, don't mean to be a broken record here as I'm typing it into the notes, but I was like.

This is, you gotta take this line out or, or try it this way. Yeah. So I did go and look and they made changes good. And made some substantial changes around it, thankfully. But that was one thing she was known for, even when she was asked questions, you know, 'cause she was still speaking some in her late eighties, early nineties.

Mm-hmm. Occasionally, I think. And, um, that topic, like she would definitely ruffle feathers when folks asked around consent. Mm-hmm. So it was, I mean, a very different generation, so. Yeah.

[00:34:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. A very common experience when you look back on any historical figure is the context of where they were at.

Yeah. The ways that they were messing up, and I know people do the same thing to us as we

[00:34:56] Dr. Jen: Oh yeah.

[00:34:57] Dr. Nicole: Continue the lifelong journey of deconstructing the systems. Right. Because it's like,

[00:35:01] Dr. Jen: but ideally with compassion.

[00:35:02] Dr. Nicole: Yes, yes. Understanding, cancel culture. Yes, yes. Yeah, exactly. Calling people in as you were in that moment.

Right.

[00:35:08] Dr. Jen: I know. Yeah. Because I was like, I'm pretty sure whatever you're doing now in a few years, it's gonna come back and bite you in the ass. So, mm-hmm. Maybe a little more awareness and, uh, kindness and compassion right now. I know.

[00:35:19] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:35:20] Dr. Jen: It's not my favorite part of our field about how people eat each other,

[00:35:24] Dr. Nicole: so.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So we live by different values in those moments, so, yeah. Thank you.

[00:35:30] Dr. Jen: Yeah.

[00:35:31] Dr. Nicole: I appreciated what you had said too, when you're speaking to so many wide audiences about essentially the window of tolerance is what I was hearing. Mm-hmm. Right. Uh, for the listener, it's that, that space of capacity, especially as an athlete, like you mentioned, right?

[00:35:45] Dr. Jen: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:45] Dr. Nicole: You notice there's a window of tolerance when you can push yourself and your muscles to do a little bit more, and then there's also that window of hurting yourself, right? Yeah. If you push too hard, you've broken the muscle. Yeah.

[00:35:56] Dr. Jen: To give a really good analogy for it.

[00:35:58] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. And so when we think about.

As we named, right? There are systems of oppression around sexuality that will be unpacking for a lifetime. And this is work that we all need to do to unpack our cultural bias around these topics, right? And so when we're doing that work, we do have to think whether it's you, yourself, or you're an activist like you, right?

[00:36:18] Dr. Jen: Yeah.

[00:36:18] Dr. Nicole: Um, thinking about that window of tolerance of how far can we go with pushing people's capacity and if they get to that space of where they're breaking the muscle, we can think about that in terms of the neuroscience as getting into our amygdala and the fight flight. Mm-hmm. Freeze fa system, right?

And so being able to notice when you've gone past that, because once we get there, dear listener, that person shuts down.

[00:36:43] Dr. Jen: I know

[00:36:43] Dr. Nicole: it's pure defense. They're not gonna listen to you. Nope, nope, nope. This lady is crazy. That doctor, I don't trust her. You know? Right.

[00:36:50] Dr. Jen: That's

[00:36:50] Dr. Nicole: whatever.

[00:36:50] Dr. Jen: That's inappropriate what she's saying and doing and Yeah.

Yep. So it is a fine, and, but the thing is, it's completely different for each person, you know? So like when we work with private clients, we could find where that realm is. Yes. We could feel it in them. We could see it in their body language. We could hear it in their tone of voice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When I've got an, like, I was just in Miami last week speaking to 60 folks and, and especially, and I'm up on a stage too, so I'm not even like down with them.

Yeah. And I'm like, and there's lights on me and I'm looking, and I was like, okay, they're pretty quiet, I think. I think they're still with me. Something. I think they're good. And it was, I mean, it was a two and a half hour talk, and like, they hung in it till the end. Like they were there and they were participating and they asked good questions.

So I was like, okay. Yeah. Because in, you know, in other audiences, if people are quiet or whatever, it might be like they're detached or they're on their phones. But so often with our topics, they're just, they're reflective and there's. They're sitting in that discomfort, but they're staying there. Mm-hmm.

They could walk out if they wanted to and they're not. Mm-hmm. They're sitting there and they're taking notes and they're doing the activities and they're asking questions at the end. So, um, but yeah. I love that analogy to sports that you gave. 'cause that's a really good, because I talk about you don't wanna get too far outside your comfort zone because you're around these topics.

You could be, um, out of integrity with your values. You could do something that you're like, oh, you're having some drinks or something, and the next day you're like, I didn't wanna do that. That wasn't right for me. That's not who I am. So I was like, what is that thing that feels uncomfortable? I like to use the example, 'cause this works with a lot of my audiences.

If I told you you had to go home and read some erotica out loud to your partner, that is one that hits a lot of these audiences, right? For me, yeah. I'd be like, I like to guess. This is exciting. But for most of these folks, first of all, they don't read much erotica, even themselves, and. And they certainly wouldn't wanna read it out loud and have to hear it in their vo, you know, their own voice, uh, especially the women.

And so that, and I go, that whatever discomfort you're feeling right now, that's what I want you to play with. Because there's nothing in that that's out of integrity with your values. There's nothing that's gonna, you know, mess you up or your relationship, anything like that. But that sort of awkwardness, embarrassment outta your comfort zone, um, play with that.

[00:39:03] Dr. Nicole: So yeah, that's such a good invitation. Such a good invitation. I've learned from so many amazing guests on the show. And a few years back I was recording with dominatrix and I was trying to unpack all of my internal messaging around womanhood. And I had subbed before, but never dawned. Right. And so that was something that they had recommended to me to read erotica.

And so I did. And it was hard like a few years back to like, hold it with power, you know?

[00:39:29] Dr. Jen: Yeah.

[00:39:29] Dr. Nicole: She's like, this is your fascist state. Control it. And I'm like, I. No. How, you know, like it's just like, ah, you know, but like I can't now and play, you know? But like at the time it was just so like, and again, thinking about the voice again, like where actually it's really true.

Yeah. Opening. Do we need to do to be able to read that with confidence?

[00:39:50] Dr. Jen: Yeah. That's good voice. You're making me think, I just wrote the word voice down, which I'm gonna look back in like an hour and be like, what the hell? Why did I write the voice down the podcast?

Yeah, I know. I was like, the world, why did that stand?

What you're making me think of, and I, I mentioned this before we started recording, is so I. So this summer I launched something new called the Center for Courageous Intimacy. Mm-hmm. As a hub, uh, for online resources. I real, my biggest goal was that I really wanted it to be like a community service for people to be able to come and get free resources.

So one of the headings at the top is free stuff, free tools. Yeah. And folks can go in and there's worksheets from different things that you wanna build to have more gratitude. You wanna talk about desire with your partner, red and green flags in dating, and I'm gonna just keep adding more and more. Yep.

And folks can download them for free. They don't even have to gimme their email address. Nothing. I really, I just, it, it matters to me because where can we get good information like this? Where can we get a tool like that? Um, because I, I realized. Over my 32 years of, of all the audiences I've worked with.

And it's funny to think like, you know, between working with Girl Scouts Mm. And working with senior citizens and college students and CEOs and, um, I worked at the LGBT Community Center and with HIV positive folks and, you know, gave a, gave a talk on consent, half naked at Burning Man. You know, I love that.

Like the whole, yes, this broad range of things I've done, but I realized regardless of, of the audience and the context, fundamentally what I'm most teaching people how to do is to have the courage and the skills to have the conversations they most want to have or need to have, but they're avoiding for some reason.

Mm. And like that, that piece is what ties it all the way through. So that was the, uh, the, uh, impetus behind the Center for Courageous intimacy of like, how do we, how do we bring more courage to our deepest connections with others? And, and then how do we, with that courage then step into a space of learning tools and new skills and then practicing it.

And so my, I have a. Like a, a community gathering aspect of this new center called, um, an intimacy speakeasy. Mm. And I had my first one last night. Beautiful. And it went beautifully. Yeah. And I had 30 folks in an actual speakeasy. So an actual hidden bar in San Diego. This super swanky, awesome space. We had a DJ there playing yacht rock.

Everybody got a complimentary drink and um, I broke them into small groups mm-hmm. And gave them question prompts. Mm. To talk about things we don't normally talk about. Like the first question was just to kind of get them going. Like, what's a topic that's really taboo that you wish wasn't so taboo?

Mm-hmm. And was more normal for people to talk about. Mm. And so, and I opened each one by sharing an example to help them. 'cause I was like, they're not gonna know like how deep to go or how Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know what to do. So like that one I was like, I wish we talked about masturbation more. I wish we talked about, and especially how women.

Positions, how they touch themselves, what they're thinking of, toys, lube, are they laying down? Are they using pillows? Yeah. How long does it take? The whole, all of those details. We almost never talk about that. I wish that was normal. And I could saw a couple will be like, their eyes got big and they're like, oh, okay.

We're, oh, we're doing, we're going here. Okay. We're okay. Amazing. So, but that voice that, you know, what you were saying about voice I, that is, I want to help people find their voice around these topics. Mm-hmm. And encourage them to have a stronger, while still compassionate, but stronger voice around these topics.

And whether it's the depth of their emotional intimacy and fears and shames. Um, to their sexual needs and desires.

[00:43:31] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. And there's so much power when you hold that conversation like you just did with confidence, right? Yeah. It's, um, you know, when you listen to sad music and it makes you feel sad.

[00:43:46] Dr. Jen: Yeah,

[00:43:47] Dr. Nicole: yeah. Right? Because the vibrations of the musical chords, you know it Yeah. They're, they're coming into each ear, right. And so everyone listening to this podcast right now is hearing you inside their body. Right? So you, the music of your voice that is playing with confidence, right?

[00:44:04] Dr. Jen: Yeah.

[00:44:04] Dr. Nicole: That is transmuting that to folks.

And so when they hear you say it, oh, you're right. Maybe I could say this later today with that kind of confidence that I heard.

[00:44:13] Dr. Jen: Hmm. Thank you. Thank you for saying that. That's lovely. That's a lovely reflection back. I appreciate that.

[00:44:18] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious, what were some of the other questions that were in the

[00:44:24] Dr. Jen: i

[00:44:24] Dr. Nicole: the lineup?

[00:44:24] Dr. Jen: I mean, I had an opening one, um, in small groups and they were just introducing themselves why they were at the event. Sure, sure. And also, what's the best compliment they ever received? 'cause I just want, I wanted people to have, you know, fun with that and maybe get a little spicy or, you know, depending on their comfort level and just start with something that felt really positive.

And then, let's see, another question was, um, which topic is hardest for you to talk about, whether it's emotional intimacy or sexual intimacy in dating or relationships? And why do you think that's so hard for you?

[00:44:57] Dr. Nicole: I had one guest talk about enema play, and I realized when I edited it back, I was like, I didn't even know how to respond at the time.

I was like, she was like, it's great. I'm having so much fun. And I was like. That's great. Next topic. You know, I was like, I just, I didn't even know what to say. I was like, whoa.

[00:45:14] Dr. Jen: Yeah,

[00:45:14] Dr. Nicole: it was like anal cool, but like, wow. Now we're talking enema. Like what?

[00:45:18] Dr. Jen: Yeah. What? Well, so I love that you said this too. So one the thing, I talked them through this concept that I called generous listening.

Mm-hmm. And four steps. So I did like this 10 minutes of teaching about generous, how you be a good listener, how do you listen with an open heart and kindness. How do you not judge, not give advice, not interrupt, and then when somebody's completed, how do you ask a curiosity question? A genuine curiosity question because right, with these topics, so much like we, we freeze up if we're, we're not comfortable with it and we're not familiar with it and we don't know what to do, or, or we wanna like judge in some way.

Like that's often what people do. And obviously you were doing that, of course. Sure, sure. But that's so often what we do. And so I taught them all these skills. I literally gave them a handout that had a list of curiosity questions to ask. That's good. Yes. To be like, oh, tell me more. I don't, I don't know a lot about this.

Tell me more about like, why you enjoy this so much, or what this is like for you. And so just so they could learn those skills together. So yeah. And the, the final question I asked, there's one more and I can't remember what it was. Um, final question I asked though is. What's a conversation that you're avoiding right now and whether in, you know, a romantic or intimate relationship or a bigger relation, you know, other relationship?

'cause a couple folks, people were there, some in, in couples. Yeah. Some single folks. Some people I told them, I go, if you're here with a partner, you could choose to stay with them in these small groups. Were gonna have two different small groups. So the couple question, you could choose to stay, you could split up for the second group, you could split up the whole time.

And that was really interesting to see what different couples did. Yeah. Um, because I think some couples were there because they wanted to and, and I got that feedback afterwards. This is exactly what we needed to start talking about. Topics we're not talking about. And I'm like. Like, it makes me wanna cry.

I'm like, that is exactly right. What I wanted here. And like one guy wrote me afterwards and he goes, it was amazing. Like I heard her talk about things I can never get her to talk about. Mm. And she did it and she said she enjoyed the event. And I was like, Ugh, that's amazing. So good. So good. Um, yeah. And like a couple people shared, like somebody said, there was some folks that were single there or dating and one said, you know what?

I haven't been dating in like three years and this is making me realize like I need to have that conversation with myself.

[00:47:24] Dr. Nicole: Oh wow.

[00:47:24] Dr. Jen: And see what I'm avoiding and why. And someone else was like, ah, somebody that's recently divorced and is dating and was like, I am dating somebody new and I've been for a year and I.

Don't actually know how serious or committed he is, because I'm afraid to ask

[00:47:38] Dr. Nicole: oof.

[00:47:39] Dr. Jen: My heart. My heart. So stuff like that, my, like, it was just beautiful and it was all over the map. What folks, you know, because we had some folks that were like hardcore poly kink folks

[00:47:46] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:47:47] Dr. Jen: In the lifestyle, all of that. And other folks that I know were like, I don't even know what they're talking about.

I don't know what those words are. I don't know what pro dom is. Yeah. I don't know any of these things.

[00:47:57] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:47:58] Dr. Jen: So, which was amazing to get such a variety, um, in a space like that. Yes. Yeah. Can I'm, I'm just delighted It worked.

[00:48:06] Dr. Nicole: So good. So good. So good. I mean, that's political, that's activism, that's changing lives.

That is essential. That's how we end rape culture is by talking about pleasure and getting it out there. So hell yes to that and I appreciate that. The way you set up the container was an invitation to either stay in pairings Yeah. Or to separate, because I,

[00:48:27] Dr. Jen: yeah.

[00:48:27] Dr. Nicole: I'm remembering, uh, I told you about that relationship anarchist series.

I do.

[00:48:31] Dr. Jen: Yeah.

[00:48:31] Dr. Nicole: I had one guest who came on, um, their name was Juno and they talked about some of their relationship anarchy communities. And one thing that they regretted out of the community events that they held was that they would force people upon entering to separate from, because they were trying to do like non hierarchy and building community.

But Juno was like, when I look back on that, I think it scared a lot of people who felt like they couldn't come in. And so I appreciate the framing you have of that, which is not forced. It's an invitation. Mm-hmm. Like you can separate, there's benefits to that. And also when you're talking about such a complex topic for most folks, it makes sense that you would want that buddy or two or three or whatever group you're running in.

Right.

[00:49:10] Dr. Jen: Because yeah, there ended up being two folks that were cousins there, and I was like. I go, you can choose me with your cousin if you want. You don't have to you. Yeah,

[00:49:18] Dr. Nicole: yeah, totally.

[00:49:21] Dr. Jen: Yeah, it was um, yeah, no, that, thank you. And it was really, um, and I think part of it probably is so many of my audiences now, you know, are like wealthier people who just really are not used to talking about these topics.

But they want them, they're hiring me to come in and do it. 'cause they realize it's important. Yeah. Um, and they wanna address it and they wanna normalize it and learn skills in it. So for me it's so much like I, I'm always like, I Right. I, I encourage you to be uncomfortable, but you never have to say anything you don't want to.

And if this per, if you wanna stay with this person, know that it might Right. It was what was interesting is like some people having their partner there, I think it made them feel more free. Yes. To open up another and share. And then other people it absolutely, yep. Made them feel more closed up. And so Totally.

But I wanted everybody to choose that for themselves. Or I love the folks that like stayed together for the first pairing of two questions and then switched to and split up and switch to other groups. Um, I think that was probably like a good mix for them to experience it both ways. So.

[00:50:24] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And what kind of sex educators would we be if we force people to do things, you know, like that, like, that's not

[00:50:29] Dr. Jen: right.

Or to have our comfort with stuff, or they have to have our

[00:50:32] Dr. Nicole: failing consent 1 0 1, you know, like from the beginning.

[00:50:35] Dr. Jen: So, exactly.

[00:50:36] Dr. Nicole: So like, I appreciate that frame and I also really appreciate the frame of curiosity questions. When I was in grad school, we had a required group psychology class, which was really fascinating experience for another podcast, uh, because it was like all my co like a small group of my cohort, probably about eight.

[00:50:56] Dr. Jen: And you were all studying each other in the group together. I love that.

[00:51:00] Dr. Nicole: That is fascinating. That is so great. The tricky part about it, it was a classic process group. And so our, our professor would come in and be like, we need to talk about the here and the now. And we'd be like, what does that mean? He's like, the here and the now.

And then we'd all try to figure it out and we'd get frustrated, which is like a classic thing.

[00:51:15] Dr. Jen: Yeah.

[00:51:15] Dr. Nicole: But he'd like call us out randomly when we were doing it wrong. It was very confusing, but classic. Processing group style, so it's fascinating. Interesting. It's a whole other conversation, but,

[00:51:25] Dr. Jen: but is it meant to not be, feel so safe and comfortable?

[00:51:29] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, I think it's, it's supposed to. Bring out everyone's difficulties. Right? So you could see how people who struggle with unknowns started, you know, how they reacted. Yeah. Yeah. So yes, it is supposed to bring out stuff of people. Um, and so one of the things we did do in that though, was at least like a highlight of our week to start it off before we got into the deep processing group of the now.

And I remember. I was in that group. And the night prior I had gone to my first like play party and had my first exhibitionist scene with one of my long-term partners. And it was kinky and amazing. And I came out glowing, just like glowing. And I remember having that circle moment with all these other therapists and it's like, what's the highlight of your week?

And now I'm sitting in my chair going like, well, this is the highlight of my week, but is this the space? I can say this. Right. Luckily the profess So did you? Yeah. Well, yes. And so luckily the professor was queer and talked about how he had done research in the kink and B-D-S-N-B-S scenes. So then I had a little bit of a like, okay, if everyone hates this, at least the professor I know will be on my side.

[00:52:34] Dr. Jen: Oh yeah.

[00:52:35] Dr. Nicole: So I was like, and also, what does it mean in the field of psychology if I can't name this? Like we study the human condition. If I can't say this pleasurable consent thing that happened to me, what the fuck field is this?

[00:52:46] Dr. Jen: Yeah.

[00:52:46] Dr. Nicole: And so I did. And the whole room for room went silent. Silent.

[00:52:50] Dr. Jen: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:52:53] Dr. Nicole: And I went home that day and cried. Well, correct, because I was like, oh. But when I came back the next week, one of my, um, colleagues, Rebecca, she was like, I just didn't know what to ask you. Mm-hmm. I didn't know, like, would it be inappropriate to ask further questions? I'm thinking about your curiosity questions, and I will say one of the people in the group two years later did say, Hey, my friend's looking for like, spaces to go play.

Like you talked about that once in class.

[00:53:20] Dr. Jen: Hey. Yeah.

[00:53:21] Dr. Nicole: So it did, it did. You know, like research is

[00:53:23] Dr. Jen: That's awesome. But it's like, I feel like, and I, I could tell you and I are both those people and have where we sort of, we know we have, I think both the commitment to showing up and being us, and we know we have the inner strength even when it's really hard mm-hmm.

To be that person. And I wa I mean, some of what I did last night absolutely. Where I. Wanted it's role model for them, sharing a really uncomfortable answer. Sure. And, and I did, I pushed myself like to say, uncomfortable thing, and my boyfriend was there as well, and I know, and I was like, I'm not even gonna turn and look at my boyfriend's face.

Right. Nowt,

[00:54:01] Dr. Nicole: you can't.

[00:54:02] Dr. Jen: He can. He's a, he's a cancer researcher. He is not in this realm or world at all. Yeah. And like, let's just, yeah. So, and to his credit, he participated in the whole thing. He loved it. Love that. He was like, lovely. But I, but that space where we, we push ourselves to, you know, to be the, the role model and confident because we know we can handle it.

But it reminds me of, of Brene Brown's work and her talking about we need to be mindful of who we share our vulnerabilities with.

[00:54:30] Dr. Nicole: Oh my God.

[00:54:31] Dr. Jen: Yes. You know? And are they can, are they, are they, are they, are they gonna judge us? Are they gonna shame us? Or if we're sharing a shame, are they gonna add shame to that because of their own discomfort?

Are they gonna be true, safe witnesses and containers for that? And I know I, um, I push myself in that realm a lot. 'cause there's just a lot of spaces that I'm in that I, I could tell by the vibe of the group, this is not a vulnerable group. That's what I'm here though, to teach them. And I need to be that person leading the way to do that and to normalize it.

And afterwards, I've had so many people who do thank me or they write on evaluations, oh my God, you made these topics so normal right from the start. And yeah, but it's, it's like, it's hard. Like there's a, you know, an inner fortitude and that sometimes afterwards I was like. Well, shit, that was really fucking uncomfortable.

Yeah. Like I, I did it and I know it had a good purpose, but boy that is sitting in me not so well.

[00:55:27] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:55:27] Dr. Jen: Um, 'cause they were not the safest con container for that vulnerability.

[00:55:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:55:32] Dr. Jen: So

[00:55:33] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm definitely not doing that in all the circles I've run into.

[00:55:37] Dr. Jen: Yeah,

[00:55:37] Dr. Nicole: for sure. Therapists tell you I'm a push you.

Right. Grab your, grab your pearls and we're going, you know, like you, this is for your future client that's gonna thank me.

[00:55:45] Dr. Jen: And, and if you're judging me, that's all you.

[00:55:48] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Exactly.

[00:55:48] Dr. Jen: It's all on you.

[00:55:50] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And so being able to gauge that, you have to, to be able to stay safe for yourself.

Right. Appreciated. Brene Brown, the metaphor she gave to her daughter was a marble jar. Right. So when you have a. Deeper conversation with someone and they take it well to put a marble in the jar. And over time as that jar fills up,

[00:56:12] Dr. Jen: oh,

[00:56:13] Dr. Nicole: it's a reminder. Okay, wow, there's a lot of marbles in this jar I can shake.

It's time to go even deeper and I can share something really vulnerable. That's, and so essentially that skill of like pacing and and titrating to find out like how safe these people are with that. And I do think if I were to say that to my younger self, she'd probably be like, well, how do you know? And I guess it's almost such a felt sense now.

It's, I know, but I think is connected to how. Deeply connected, I am to my body and pleasure. Yeah. That you're more sensitive to people and how they react when you put, you gotta put at least a little bait out there, you know? Yeah. And like see, you know? But from there, I feel so in tune now that I can pick up on the small Yeah.

Body language and all that sort of stuff. Yeah. So I do think that that is connected to more embodiment and pleasure.

[00:56:56] Dr. Jen: Yeah. And I would also add to that, because I get that. Question a lot. And so for me, like how do I, how do I, how do I trust my intuition with someone else? How do I trust my read on somebody?

How do I know who's safe? How do I know? Yeah. And I always say, I mean, it starts with ourselves. And the, the space I'm always teaching people is the, the somatic mindfulness aspect of it. Like, we need to study ourselves, our emotions, our patterns, our motivations, our desires, and get intimately connected to them and understand them and study them and know what it feels like.

Um, and I, I take as part of that and as a sociologist and, and looking back at these topics of where you got your first messages. Yeah. And do they feel like they, they serve you? Um, or are they, you know, insulting and hurting you at this point and, and look at that and journal on it and feel into it and really get connected to where you're feeling these different emotions and.

Stories you've been told and beliefs inside in your, in your story inside of you. Uh, and the more intimately connected we get to those nuances, we could start then reading, you know, like, ah, something's not quite right. Like, they're saying all the right things, but something's, something's not matching. And let me, let me listen to that voice.

Let me reflect on this right now. Let me have the courage to ask questions I wouldn't normally ask. So it is, it, it starts with, yeah, it's a different aspect of embodiment. Mm-hmm. Um, of awareness of, of really feeling into ourselves and studying that.

[00:58:26] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So much. And I find it so. Sad and comical all at the same time.

When you get that client that comes into your office and they say, oh my gosh, I want a better sex life. I want a better sex life. How can you help me do this? And you say, well, how about you meditate? What about that? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I don't have time for that. I don't have time. Just tell me how I can have better sex.

[00:58:50] Dr. Jen: Yep.

[00:58:53] Dr. Nicole: Tell, tell me what pill I can take. Right. Like what pill? I know. You know, and it's like, okay,

[00:58:58] Dr. Jen: it's so good. But that, that shift from, 'cause like what they're doing is like, is like, you know, like the pushing or the pulling instead of like the allowing and the surrendering. Yeah. Yeah. It's a really big shift in energy.

And then they're like, yeah, no, I don't have time. That's uncomfortable. I need to be doing something.

[00:59:16] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:16] Dr. Jen: So,

[00:59:16] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It's good. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I feel like the ability to actually feel pleasure, I mean, the research says we can't multitask as much as. I try every day. I'm a modern woman. What can I say?

You know? But we can't. Right. And so when I think about being able to receive pleasure, if my brain is going well, I gotta edit that podcast, and then that client and this, and then that. We're not able to feel right. And so I think the more time that we can be able to spend meditating. Mm-hmm. And that doesn't have to just look like sitting in silence and Right.

Breathing it can, you know, I teach yoga. That's another thing. And so it, that's a great way where you're doing movement and mind body, right? Yeah. It's a little bit easier. They, they would say the highest form of meditation was in stillness. And so the Austin, as the, the practice of the movements and the postures was to help get there.

Right? And so, like, that's one way to help that for, it's also for me, rock climbing, that's a great thing where when I am literally up there, uh, if I start thinking about my day, I will fall. You know? So it's like, it's like, nope, I feel my body holding here and move there. And so it doesn't have to be dear listener as

[01:00:30] Dr. Jen: That's amazing.

Yeah.

[01:00:31] Dr. Nicole: Static, right? Like, and for you, it sounds like volleyball, right? Like whatever it is for you, that movement practice, find something that you love that's not torture. 'cause I think that's the first step. People think, oh my God, I have to sit. Ugh. Ugh.

[01:00:45] Dr. Jen: Right.

[01:00:46] Dr. Nicole: Which can be pleasurable. There's a moment where the breath can be pleasurable too.

Oh my gosh.

[01:00:49] Dr. Jen: It feels amazing. And then I'm like, why don't I do this more?

[01:00:51] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:00:51] Dr. Jen: This feels lovely. I don't wanna leave this space right now.

[01:00:55] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:00:55] Dr. Jen: It's amazing.

[01:00:56] Dr. Nicole: Right, right. Exactly. Exactly.

[01:00:58] Dr. Jen: But it's getting over the hump to doing it.

[01:01:01] Dr. Nicole: Well, yeah. There's so many systems going on right now. I'm like, what time do I have, I need to help end rape culture here.

Let me make another worksheet that I can put on my website. Like, let's go, let's go, let's go. And it's like, no, Nicole, like rest. You have to rest too.

[01:01:14] Dr. Jen: I know. Like I know. I know. And the worst is, yeah, when I'm sitting in. Like, you know, meditating and, and then I was like, oh, that's interesting. My brain went to that place.

Oh, that'd be a great, that'd be a great substack blog post on that topic. And I was like, oh dude, you're doing it again. Stay in the moment. You don't have to be productive right now.

[01:01:33] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Which can also come into your sex life as a sex educator. You're like thinking that, you're like absolutely thinking that.

You're like, wow, okay. I should write a letter about how this,

[01:01:41] Dr. Jen: I know I'll be, and I was like, oh shit. This is that thing that person mentioned recently. I was like, oh my God, do not think about your clients right now. This is so distracting. And I was like, oh, shit. I should have said that thing. 'cause that's helping me right now.

[01:01:52] Dr. Nicole: Right now.

[01:01:53] Dr. Jen: I was like, is it helping me right now? Am like distracted. Right. I know. The same day. And then I was like, dude, let them go be here.

[01:01:59] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:02:00] Dr. Jen: I know.

[01:02:00] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So what are the things that help you step into your pleasure with all of that going on? Like how, how do you step into that in today's world?

[01:02:11] Dr. Jen: Yeah. I, I mean, Annette, it. 52 and being really perimenopausal and so many ups and downs and, um, just a, I mean, it's a really definitive, um, time period of inconsistency in what my body feels like gaining weight that I don't have control over. Being bloated, not, or orgasm being harder, not feeling much desire.

Um, and then just feeling like this anxiety that I've never had before. So I'm just, it's a really unique time period that it is much harder to connect to pleasure. Um, my pathways in though to sexual pleasure tend to now need to be other forms of pleasure, of relaxation. Mm-hmm. Like my boyfriend earlier this year, um, we tried out in his backyard to see if we liked it in inflatable hot tub.

Ooh. Best fucking investment ever. It is so good for me. Yeah, it is so helpful. And to sit in there and relax and I'll do some meditation and we'll be there together. I'll bring a little, um, uh, waterproof vibrator with me and to start kissing and it's just like I need other. I need more to get my head and emotions and body to a space to be able to drop into a sexual space.

Uh, I just, yeah. I need a lot more like support around that. And I know, and I know what works. So. Yeah. And the hot tub's been amazing. Um, you know, for me, I cannot access that space after like 10 o'clock at night. Mm. Um, and it is, it's like a, it's more downtime. Some of it is, um, like reading for pleasure.

Sure. Um, and just feeling like there's just this, um, like these, these spaces to like calm my nervous system.

[01:03:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:03:58] Dr. Jen: And to feel more present in my body.

[01:04:00] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:04:01] Dr. Jen: And most spaces then help. So it is, you know, for me and my boyfriend, we've been together a little over three years. It's a lot of intentionality, but thankfully, like, this is what I do and this is what I help people do, and I'm just practicing what I preach.

Mm-hmm. And thankfully he's so, um, he's so loving and understanding and like such a good partner around this and teamwork around this. And he, he never. Which is amazing. Never feels like I talk about perimenopause too much, which is amazing. Uh, he goes like, I wanna be in this babe with you. I wanna be a partner with you.

This, this is both of us. And which is lovely. So, yeah. So for now, like, access to sexual pleasure is through relaxation and other bodily pleasure. Mm-hmm. And like a, a nurturing, a feeling like an a self nurturing aspect and then shifting into, um, yeah. Sexual exploration and pleasure.

[01:04:56] Dr. Nicole: So, yeah. Yeah. I'm hearing how the connection to the erotic is the frame I usually go through.

Right. The connection to the erotic is in all areas of life.

[01:05:08] Dr. Jen: Yeah.

[01:05:09] Dr. Nicole: It's not like you can just come into sex and just have that be this like box that we step into. No, not at all. You know, like,

[01:05:15] Dr. Jen: yeah,

[01:05:15] Dr. Nicole: not at all. How, how you move through the day. Yeah, in all the different ways, whether you're rushing to that appointment, which I tend to do, or rushing to do this thing, and then that thing, and then that thing.

And then you wanna sit down and then feel pleasure with your vibrator in the hot tub. You're gonna be like, go, go, go, go, go, go. Right? Like,

[01:05:33] Dr. Jen: yeah.

[01:05:34] Dr. Nicole: You have to be able to like find that piece in all different areas. Right? Or if you are trying to create the container for it, still allowing yourself to come into that rhythm.

It's a running on the treadmill, right? You run on the treadmill for so long, you get onto stable ground, you're like, this feels weird. Like what? Why? Why is this ground not moving? You know? Like, and it's like, whoa. Um, and so i's a similar thought like, you're running, running, running. Then like, and now I'm gonna solo push what, what, what, what do we do?

What do we do? What do we, you know? Yeah. And so the brain just cannot. Yeah, attuned to that. And so I appreciate, as you mentioned, this is something that comes through multiple different areas of pleasure, really slowing down Yeah. To be with yourself and your body, not just in the sexual, but in all areas of pleasure.

[01:06:16] Dr. Jen: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[01:06:18] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah,

[01:06:20] Dr. Jen: yeah. And you know, living in a place like San Diego is helpful. Like before we got on this call, I went out on my little deck and I was like, oh my God, this sun feels so good. I was like, and I was just feeling the sun on my skin and my face and doing a little meditation and I was like, oh God, these like simple pleasures like that.

Yes. So, yeah, again, it's like, it really is an intentionality, um, and giving ourselves permission to. To take little times like that. Um, but knowing, like for me, it makes, it's just such a difference in my overall happiness and mm-hmm. Ability to connect with others.

[01:06:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm curious too, I feel like another area that's not talked about often is the habituation that happens in long-term relationships.

Yeah. Not a lack of love and not a lack of desire, but the very natural, uh, occurrence of habituation. How do you live with that in your own relationship as well as work with clients in that?

[01:07:22] Dr. Jen: Yeah. Um, I mean, I'd say with clients it's, it's probably, you know, one of my specialty areas of, like I'd mentioned before, like thinking outside the box,

[01:07:32] Dr. Nicole: right?

[01:07:32] Dr. Jen: Um, and, and even, you know, and whether, well, like when I'm with an audience, giving them a worksheet, I have like an erotic play worksheet that they can go through, um, and just to be reflecting on things or maybe something they used to do, they haven't done in a long time, or something they've never tried.

And, and just normalizing this idea, like our bodies are always changing, our lives are changing, our hormones are changing our priorities. Our kids, you know, everything's always shifting and. Changing so your sex life can also, or needs to also. Uh, and there's, that doesn't mean there's anything wrong. You know, if your partner says, Hey, I'd love to try new things, it doesn't mean they're unhappy with you.

It, it means they just, you know, wants to bring some new energy in or, or explore, you know, being able to explore something new with somebody is a form of intimacy. Mm-hmm. Of taking that risk together and being vulnerable together.

[01:08:22] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:08:22] Dr. Jen: So, um, yeah, and then I, in my own relationship, I'm, I'm in a space right now that we're just, we're having some conversations around this, so I don't wanna share too much 'cause it's not fair to him at all.

Sure.

[01:08:33] Dr. Nicole: I hear you.

[01:08:34] Dr. Jen: Um, but, um, yeah, so for me it's just a, a reminder to practice what I preach and then, and it is, it's the intentionality because we both have really busy careers. We both travel for work, we travel for pleasure also, which is great. He's got his kids halftime. Like there's just a, there's a lot of.

Um, competing priorities. And so yeah, it's then being like, okay, let's, okay. I got a worksheet for that. I got a worksheet for everything. And so I'll be like, I'll be at your house Thursday night. Like, I, let's do a half hour, 45 minutes of this worksheet. And I'll be like, okay, sounds good babe. Nice is good.

Whatever you say, you're expert here. Yeah. Well, and part of it is I think. And I, I've, when I work with just small groups of women, sometimes I'll say, I'm like, if you want more emotional intimacy, if you want to be having sexual conversations, if you want, you know, quality time and all. So like, are you the person who's better at these topics in your relationship?

Because I've noticed for my, like, I will always be the person better at these topics. It's almost impossible. I'm gonna, you know, find a man, uh, who, who is more equipped in these areas and coaching and, and knowing how to tackle concerns or disconnect. And, but sometimes I am waiting for him to initiate the conversation or start it, or we started a conversation but he's not doing anything differently.

And I realized I would get so frustrated and then I was like, well, Jesus Christ, he doesn't know how to do that. Like this is none of his work at all. And this is literally what I. Live, sleep, breathe, eats every day. And what I help other people with, and I'm really good at it and I, when I've worked with other small groups of women, I've been like, are you waiting for them to do something that you're actually way more skilled at doing and initiating or creating a conversation around?

And they're like, oh shit, you're right. And I'm like, if you bring it up, will he have the conversation with you? Or doing, they're like, yeah, actually he probably will. I just need to initiate. And I go, maybe this is a place that we just say, hey, this is a strength of mine. Mm-hmm. So stand step in that strength.

Step into your power in that way. If this is something you want and you're getting frustrated or you're disappointed they're not doing something differently. I, I mean, there may be an issue with commitment there or, you know, not taking things seriously or not prioritizing either, maybe. But it also just may be that literally they have no idea where to start or what to do.

Yeah. And if you do, then get it started and do it and own that as a strength of yours and what you're bringing to the relationship. Mm-hmm. So that's something that's helpful for me to remember. And then also, yeah, I've had just a lot of women clients, especially women like, you know, around in their fifties, sixties, and they're like, oh yeah, no, yeah, no, we've been married 30 years.

This is definitely not his strength. And so like, what am I doing here? Just waiting. Let, yeah, let me start initiating these and, and, um, and without, and doing it with like pride that this is a strength versus, and this is a gift I could bring to the relationship versus resentment or disappointment.

[01:11:30] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

So many of our partners just don't know. Right. We're not mind readers. We can't know. Right. Yeah. And so how do,

[01:11:37] Dr. Jen: well, and it's when we're in the field, there's so much we know and that we forget that other people don't know any of this stuff. We're like, where to start is often the point. Like where to start.

[01:11:44] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:11:44] Dr. Jen: And I was like, oh, I always could find a place to start.

[01:11:47] Dr. Nicole: For sure. For sure.

[01:11:48] Dr. Jen: Just need to do it.

[01:11:49] Dr. Nicole: Well, yeah. And even uh, outside of that, when I'll have very, as we were saying earlier, having very deep vulnerable conversations about emotions or sex. And I'm like, did that, like, I just can't even gauge anymore with small talk.

[01:12:00] Dr. Jen: It feels so like, did I cross a line? Mentioned anal beads again. Was that the wrong time to make beads machine?

[01:12:09] Dr. Nicole: Should I have not asked about your relationship to your father? No. Too, too far?

[01:12:12] Dr. Jen: I know it was.

[01:12:13] Dr. Nicole: Got it, got it. Oops, my bad. I, I felt something, but I, you know, it's a good, I don't even have a scale reference anymore, which like,

[01:12:19] Dr. Jen: I know. Same.

[01:12:23] Dr. Nicole: Good, bad, and otherwise. Right. But yeah, there's so many years of societal conditioning too, specifically where, you know, a lot of women are taking up this call here, even in the polyamory space, so many women are taking up the call there. Mm-hmm. Um, not necessarily in the, the concept of expanding sexuality, because if anything in that, um, sense, men have had much more freedom.

Yeah. And expectation of sexual liberty than, yeah. Women have. But the concept of sex with emotions, right? Mm-hmm. That is a space where women are ex. Selling in the polyamory space in ways because of, not because of an innate sense of more capacity. I think it begins all the way at that first moment when you see, not me, I don't have kids, uh, but like culturally, when we see a small boy start to cry and you say, man up and go back.

[01:13:15] Dr. Jen: So,

[01:13:15] Dr. Nicole: right.

[01:13:16] Dr. Jen: I'm so sorry.

[01:13:17] Dr. Nicole: Right. And so then you think about that years into existence and here we are with all of that now. Right. And so there is a real reality based on the gender roles that I know a lot of women are leading these conversations. Mm-hmm. And it can be frustrating. So frustrating. Yeah. And also, what does it mean to have compassion for our partners?

Mm-hmm. What does it mean to assume good intent? That's something I'm always working on when we get a fight argument, right? It's like mm-hmm. Good intent. Good intent. We're on the same team. We're on the same team. Mm-hmm. And then being able to like really slow down and bring in more curiosity into that conversation.

Because again, they might not know. They, they often, our partners don't know how to touch our clitoris. Right. We gotta get more specific. I like the circles bring on the lube. Right? Like,

[01:14:03] Dr. Jen: I know.

[01:14:04] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah,

[01:14:04] Dr. Jen: yeah. Or definitely harder. More on that side a little bit. Yeah, exactly. Oh, no, no. Now it needs to be softer.

It's just gonna keep changing.

[01:14:12] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:14:14] Dr. Jen: So, but all of that is, um, there's just so like, it's so, so raw.

[01:14:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:14:21] Dr. Jen: You know, we have, you know, to have none of our, uh, armor up in those situations and to be able to really meet another human in that space and make it safe for each other to communicate from those spaces, um, it's amazing.

I think that's the most beautiful thing to, humans can share, uh, that emotional intimacy around sexual intimacy, but it's also one of the scariest things and mm-hmm. I can even think for myself, when I was younger of times, that maybe my reactions, like I unwittingly shamed somebody. Mm. Sure. 'cause in the moment I was just sort of like.

[01:14:53] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:14:53] Dr. Jen: You know, shocked or stunned or uncomfortable basically. Right. And then we react from the, and all of us have had that happen to us in one way or another. And sometimes the other person maybe really is a dick, but sometimes they were just unskilled, you know?

[01:15:05] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly.

[01:15:07] Dr. Jen: So, um, yeah.

[01:15:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Window of tolerance, as we said and mm-hmm. And when you do say, I need more force or at this speed or this rate, I think in my own personal journey, one of the most transformative things was having, the first time I had a partner say. Thank you for telling me that. Aw, lovely. The first time I had a partner who didn't go into the ego problematic of, oh, I'm not doing it perfect.

Ugh. You know, like whatever that bullshit is. Yeah. That first partner that says, thank you, that's great. Is there anything else? Grace, even more space. So amazing. I know. Anything else you need. Right? And so my heart goes out to my younger self and for all the people who are listening who have shared that with someone and then that person got activated.

Yeah. I hope whoever is listening that that resonates with, they can know that that's not a reflection of you As much as that person got triggered in their own performance ego that they need to release.

[01:15:58] Dr. Jen: Yep. Yeah. A while back, I, um, was one of the leaders in a group called Sex Positive San Diego.

[01:16:04] Dr. Nicole: Okay.

[01:16:05] Dr. Jen: And one of the main things we taught folks is we trained them and taught them in consent, and then we hosted different events and all that, like sort of different levels of play levels and touch levels is, um, the response when somebody says no to something or puts up a boundary, say, thank you for taking care of yourself.

And it's so, you know, it's kind of cheesy and it's contrived, but when somebody said it to me, like, it literally makes me wanna tear up right now, it feels so fricking honoring. Yeah. And when you just said you're like, when they thanked you for like, it feels so honoring that like. No, you're not gonna get pissed.

You're not gonna get mad, you're not gonna try to push, you're not gonna try to take, you're just like, oh yeah, I see you and yeah, you said no to summer. Put up a boundary. Great. You're taking care of yourself. I was like, that is amazing. That feels amazing. Mm-hmm. I, um, that is not at all part of how people communicate sexually in general though.

Which is, which is sad.

[01:17:03] Dr. Nicole: I know. But you did so much work today to challenge that with your voice. Ah.

And then truly we'll get to the end still unpacking more and still doing more teaching, which is a joy, truly, and, and I always have so much hope for the younger generations who are starting in this. Place, right where we're leading these conversations. I'm like, oh. I was like, you future feminists are gonna take this so much further than I can even fathom.

Like, I'm so excited for you. Right?

[01:17:33] Dr. Jen: Yeah, yeah. Especially if we like, you know, I, and I feel like you know, where you and I definitely overlap in our work is this like, right, this voice of talking about what's hard to talk about. But that compassion piece also and like that combination of those things in feminism has certainly been missing at various times in history.

Um, but compassion towards our self and compassion towards others, that to me is really the, the only way you make really lasting social change. Um, and not that there's not a place for like anger, 'cause there is definitely a place for anger, um, and, and protection and, and wall walls of keeping people out.

Um, but if that is your only tool in your toolbox, um, I don't think that's how we make lasting change. And we're also not like happy and healthy in the process. So this, it is really to do, um, activism and social change through, uh, both confidence and compassion.

[01:18:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:18:32] Dr. Jen: It's, it's hard. It hurts. It's really hard.

[01:18:36] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:18:37] Dr. Jen: Yeah. Mm-hmm. So, but, and I could speak for myself. I am, I'm a much stronger person for it, and I am, and people are able to listen to me more.

[01:18:47] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. We change with curiosity. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, well we've had such a great conversation today. Yes. Lovely. Yeah. Alright, well as we come towards the end of our time, I'm gonna take a deep breath with you again

and check in and see if you have anything else that you wanna share with the listeners. Otherwise I have a closing question for us.

[01:19:16] Dr. Jen: Yeah. I. Just one last thought to kind of pull it together is like you, I guarantee never sort of emotions or things you're stuck with or fears that you have or insecurities you are, you are not alone.

You are absolutely not alone and we. All, all of us have, um, emotional hangups and fears and insecurities and shames around sex in our bodies, like all of us in one way or another. So please know you're not alone And consider like who, who can you start talking to around these topics and create safe space for each other if it's not something you normally do to help, to help build the courage and the skills for yourself around this.

[01:20:02] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. And that's the only way you can step into compassion, as you said, right? Mm-hmm. Is if you think I am alone, I am broken, I am this horrible, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, fill in the blank. That's the opposite of compassion.

[01:20:16] Dr. Jen: Yeah. Right? Yeah. Actually, part of what I said was, I was like, oh, yeah, that's part of the practice for self-compassion is that common humanity of one, realizing you're struggling, that mindfulness, and then second, realize you're not alone in this, and then take that, um, compassion you feel towards others and, and bring it in towards yourself, and then use that as a, as a launch point for your courage to start these conversations with others.

[01:20:37] Dr. Nicole: Right. Right. Finding community. Go to the speakeasy, continue to listen to the podcast. Find a community wherever you're at. Right, because that's that next step, right? Is like, have compassion, you're not alone. And then find the others and you'll find resilience through that. Our resilience is not, uh, just our independent existence.

Sure. That's there, but it's interdependent. It's also based on the community that you live in. So finding other people who share those values will give you such strength and that, that voice as we spoke to today.

[01:21:09] Dr. Jen: Yeah.

[01:21:10] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:21:11] Dr. Jen: Amazing.

[01:21:13] Dr. Nicole: Okay. Well, the one question that I ask everyone on the show, which I always say so often, that I now can't even say it without it becoming like a song.

So I'm gonna continue to try and not do that. Um, what's one thing is just so there I I we're, here we go. What's one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal? Mm.

[01:21:40] Dr. Jen: Gosh. I mean, there's so many directions I could go. I know, but I'm gonna, what comes up at the top is the thing, I was just saying this, um, that we have fears, we have fears and insecurities and shames around these topics.

Um, yeah. I think my final point is the, is the same one here too, because that is so normal across the board, yet somehow we feel isolated in those struggles. I, I mean, certainly the nuances are different for each person, but the underlying emotions are often the same.

[01:22:15] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, connecting with our shared humanity in that.

[01:22:22] Dr. Jen: Mm-hmm. Yep.

[01:22:24] Dr. Nicole: May that provide relief for the suffering that we experience in the journey. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, well it was such a joy to have you on the podcast today. Thank you. Thank you. This was awesome, Nicole. I appreciate it. Yeah. Yes. So fun. I know so many of the listeners are gonna be wondering how can they find all the worksheets that you mentioned, all of your stuff, right?

Right. Yes. Where can they find your stuff?

[01:22:49] Dr. Jen: So two different things. So the new thing, um, is, is the website, courageous intimacy.com. Um, or if they just type in the Cent Center for courageous intimacy, um, that will come up. The website will come up. Um, and yeah, there's free tools on there. I mean, there's tons of podcasts, like up, you know, this podcast interview will end up on all sorts of, you know, news stuff.

I've done my TEDx talks, my book, all, all the things, um, a podcast that I did for like six years. So all of those things are on there. And then also, my thing that's been my work for the past like 20 years is my Dr. Jen's Den stuff in the Den with Dr. Jen. So it. D-R-J-E-N-N-S-D-E n.com. Again, if you just type in in the den with Dr.

Jen, you'll, you'll find it perfect. And that's been my hub for, yeah, like I said, like I think I created that website, a version of it, back in 2006, so wow, that's been my hub all along and like tons and tons of free materials and everything's on there, so go explore.

[01:23:45] Dr. Nicole: Great, great, great. I'll have all that linked in the show notes below for you, dear listener.

And also let me directly say thank you for your many years of service for the movement.

[01:23:54] Dr. Jen: Thank you. Oh, you just gave me chills. Thank you. I appreciate that.

[01:23:58] Dr. Nicole: Of course. Truly many years. Thank you.

Dear listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Modern Anarchy. Thank you for sharing this episode with your friends, with your lovers, with your community. Truly, it means so much to me and I am so grateful that you are here. If you are wanting to release jealousy in your nonmonogamous dynamics and step into a compersion and pleasure filled connection, you can read my book, the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide for free on my website.

There you'll also find so many other free resources, including worksheets on how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non-monogamous dynamics and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure filled sex and relationships.

So head on over to modern Anarchy podcast.com. To find all of those free resources, and I look forward to seeing you next week.