266. Cry Hard. Cum Hard: the connection between pleasure and grief with Jess DeVries

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Jess. Join us for a conversation about normalizing the full range of the human existence. Together we talk about embracing the surrender of orgasm, learning to trust your intuition, and feeling the sounds of the body.

Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. Welcome to another episode. I'm so delighted to have you here and ready to dive in. Ready to dive into a new episode today. My name is Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, author of The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide, and founder of the Pleasure Practice, where I teach students from around the world how to craft pleasurable sex lives and non-monogamous relationships.

Dear listener, you all know we cry hard, we come hard. We cannot pick and choose which emotions we numb. If you try to numb one, you will numb yourself out to all of them, right? And so when you open yourself up to having that big, big, big scene, an orgasm and joy and connection with folks, it also means that there are tears.

There are many tears to be felt, especially in these systems, right? And so today's episode is really getting into that. How do we honor especially the grief given that it is such a social taboo, right? Grief is not a productive emotion under capitalism. No, no. Go back to work. Please don't cry, right? The whole thing.

And yeah, if we really allowed ourselves to feel all the grief, what, what, what kind of world would it be? Would we all stop? Would we all stop and create a new system, right? I think there's a lot of us, all of us, who still just don't even have the space to feel everything that is happening because of the survival of go, go, go, go, go.

And so just a big invitation to you, dear listener. How can you be with your body? How can you feel some of the grief that you might be running from with other things in your life, other connections? How can you slow down to actually feel that and know that it is absolutely important for you, for the collective, for everybody to be more in touch with our experience and That's not easy.

It's often really, really, really uncomfortable, but I know that you are strong, and I know that you have people who love you and who care for you and who will support you and hold you and see you in those tears. So thank you for joining this space, and thank you for being committed to your growth and the growth of our collective.

All right, dear listener, if you're ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and all of my free resources on my website at modernanarchypodcast.com, linked in the show notes below. And I want to say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters. I could not do this work without you.

You have been supporting me for the last five years, and I am so, so grateful for all of you who continue to do that, who see value in this show and want to support it so that it can stay free, a free resource that is accessible globally. So thank you, thank you, thank you. And with that, dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love, and let's tune in to today's episode.

Dear listener, there's a space already waiting for you where you are invited to let go of every old script about sex and relationships and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure, empowerment, and deep alignment. I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together, we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real transformation possible. And I'll be right there with you, guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure and visit modernanarchypodcast.com/pleasurepractice to apply. And the first question that I like to ask each guest on the show is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners? Ooh.

[00:05:16] Jess: It's always changing.

[00:05:17] Dr. Nicole: I know.

[00:05:18] Jess: Um, like the short version I'm a queer witch that likes to create things and grow things and help people be more in their bodies. Mm-hmm. Um, if we're talking professional roles, I am a somatic sex coach and grief worker, which are five words that mean a lot. Yeah, it does. You know, narrowed them down.

But yeah, I spend a lot of my time loving people for my job, and spend a lot of my time outside of my job with plants and people and creativity.

[00:05:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Beautiful. Beautiful. I'm excited to unpack all of that. Yes. And also to welcome you back on the show for round two. This is very exciting. I know. I know. We have a little anniversary.

Hell yeah. Amazing, amazing. So I know today you wanna talk about pleasure and grief, and the connection between the two. I am so here for this conversation. I, I will let you know, I, uh, I created a tote bag, okay? And I've been walking around the city. It's, it's on the website, uh, that people can buy, and I have been walking around the city in it.

And it says, "Cry hard, come hard." Very right there. I think that's the heart of the show, right, is that when you feel, you don't get to choose which things you feel, right? Yeah. So if you're opening yourself up to feel more pleasure, you're gonna feel more pain, and that's part of the, the revolution right there.

Yeah. And so I'd love to hear your take on the connection between pleasure and grief.

[00:06:55] Jess: Well, I'm excited about that bag. I have a class called Come and Cry. Oh. That's a queer grief-

[00:07:00] Dr. Nicole: Okay, look at that ...

[00:07:02] Jess: uh, queer grief, um-

[00:07:03] Dr. Nicole: It's aligned.

[00:07:03] Jess: Mm-hmm. Pleasure and grief ritual, uh, learning space. Yeah, I mean, I got into this work, and I think we probably talked about this the last time that we recorded, because I wanted to help people learn how to use masturbation as a way to process grief and trauma, specifically from leaving the church.

Mm-hmm. That has since expanded. Of course, most people that come to see me are queer and trans folks who have some sort of religious trauma, so it's still, it still fits. Yeah. Um, but, like, before I knew what was possible in the work, like, that was kind of what I was going towards from my own lived experience.

And then over the time of, like, professional trainings and personal learning and, you know, reading books and learning through community and things, really, like, beginning to understand... Like, we know pleasure's an embodied experience. Like, you can't be feeling pleasure if you're not in your body.

[00:08:11] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:08:12] Jess: But when I started more actively learning about grief, the way that it was taught to me was that it's a physiological process- Right?

And so when we experience a loss, um, whether that's, like, a death or a breakup or a loss of a dream or, you know, the fact that the world just doesn't treat us as whole humans or, you know, on and on and on.

[00:08:36] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:08:36] Jess: I mean, griefs are many. Our body automatically starts grieving, whether we want it to or not.

Like, it just knows what to do. And then part of, like, what is happening now, like, in my work and the work of colleagues, and you're kind of seeing more and more collectively around, is, like, people realizing that, like, we don't have a lot of space for grief, ritual for grief. That's on purpose. We can get to that later.

Yeah,

[00:09:06] Dr. Nicole: I'd love that-

[00:09:06] Jess: Um- ... part of the conversation. But- but, like, g- grief, if you think about it similarly to, like, labor, so someone who's pregnant begins to go into labor. They are having, like, a physical, emotional, spiritual, full-body, overwhelming, transformative experience. We don't also talk a lot about birth and what actually, like, is part of that process.

And so, like, in the fact that we don't name how grief shows up in the body, that it is- Mm ... quite a lot like a traumatic brain injury, that you lose access to memory, that you lose access to faculties, that things that previously were easy are not. Your emotions show up differently. Your sexuality shows up differently.

Like, we think that there's something wrong with us. And so, like, part of my work in this is, like, everything that's happened to you is normal.

[00:10:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:10:09] Jess: The overwhelming, the numbing, the erratic behavior. I'm giving air quotes. Yeah. You can't see me- Yeah ... we're on a podcast. But, like, if we can understand that, like, our body is going through a process, can we come alongside it?

Can we come alongside it with other people, tending it the same way that, like, all of us sexuality professionals are like, "Tend to your pleasure. Like, spend time with your pleasure. Be intentional with these things," we can also do that with grief, and it's not going to, like, take it away faster.

[00:10:44] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:10:46] Jess: Um, it's not going to, like, fix it.

Like, I think that's a lot of people, like, "I just wanna fix it. I want this feeling to be over." But we get to show up more on purpose, more wholly, letting our full human experience be accepted.

[00:11:00] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:11:01] Jess: And so that piece, and then coming back into the pleasure and masturbation of it all. Yeah. When I was learning initially, this was, like- Mid 2020, after experiencing a whole bunch of losses in my life, um, I ended up doing a training in Toronto.

Or not... Yeah, in Toronto on- online from folks in Toronto called Being Here Human. They're no longer around, but it was, like, non-pathologizing, holistic, intersectional grief- Mm ... literacy. Cool. And the two women that ran it, you know, phenomenal, phenomenal women, Michelle and Rochelle. Um, but they were saying, like, if you look across cultures across the world and places that still have, like, active grief ritual that has remained-

[00:11:56] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm

[00:11:57] Jess: there's three things that, that are a part of that-

[00:12:00] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:12:01] Jess: to help metabolize grief in the body and in the community-

[00:12:04] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:12:04] Jess: um, which are movement and sound and a way to share the story. Mm. And, like, when I learned that, I was like, my label was like, "Movement and sound. Masturbation. Masturbation." Yeah. Like, it makes sense that, like, my body knew to do that as a way to process.

And then, like, okay, so movement and sound are part of this. That can mean anything, and how do you, like, in your own embodied sovereignty, like, in remembering your lineage, like, what are the ways that, like, you can bring that forward in your own grief process? Can pleasure be a part of your grief process?

Like, yes. Like, I think it's a necessary part of the grief process. But, like, that embodiment piece of, we have been taught to numb out and push away and try not to feel, and bringing the body back online and being like, "Yeah, this is awful, and I can be here with it, with myself or with you, where we're all together."

It's really, like... I'm a little bit of an evangelical for grief practice, so. Ah.

[00:13:21] Dr. Nicole: I'm here for this conversation. Throw that word in there. I- Yeah ... am here for that conversation. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm thinking so much about the discomfort, as you named, when you're sitting in that space, and it's something I really struggle with when I'm moving through grief, is how fast I wanna get to the other side because I, I feel like I have so much to do, right?

The capitalistic push- Mm-hmm ... go, go, go, go, go, go. You're telling me that I feel horrible and I wanna cry and all the other slew of things, and I'm just supposed to sit here and I'm not, you know- I have to stay here? Like, I got things to do, right? And so it becomes that, um, inability to sit in that discomfort when you're there and, or, or so many medications, right?

To, like, change the experience of what you're feeling, right? And not wanting to sit in that either. And so I feel like the ability to expand our, our range of discomfort here is an essential part of the situation, because, you know, you said we'll, we'll get to the part where the systems really capitalize on us with this, right?

Because- Yeah ... something horrific happens, we hear it in the news, we see it, and there's often no time off from work and the system and the structure. It's, "Go. You saw that thing on the... Nope, go to work. Here you go," right? And so I just think- Yeah ... about how much every day we are numbing. We're numbing. Every day we're seeing these horrific things, and you just have to keep going, right?

So there's this, this disconnect between what's going on in the world and what we're having to do in our workplaces often.

[00:14:53] Jess: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of, I think, shame around grief. Mm. Of the, like, I'm not doing it right. It's too much. It's too little. Like, why am I not crying? Why can't I stop crying?

Mm. Just offering the, like, it's an embodied experience, so whether you are doing anything or not, you are grieving. Like, we are all currently grieving right now. We have less access to that experience depending on, like, what we have to do in our day-to-day and our capacity. But then also, like, if we're talking about the, like, fact that most of us don't have grief ritual, don't have time to take time off-

[00:15:42] Dr. Nicole: Yeah

[00:15:43] Jess: or desire to take time off, you know, like, that there is a big fear that, like, we know. We know, like, if I start to feel this one, I'm gonna feel all of them. Mm. And that is, like, existentially terrifying, honestly. Like, like... And so the, like, finding the titrated way, the, like the little dip the toe in to start building the capacity to be with those things, um, is a lot of, you know, what I do with folks, where it's like- Mm

oh, we're gonna take two minutes to talk about this hard thing, and like, now tell me about your cat. Like- Mm. Mm-hmm ... you know, like, can we for 30 seconds, for 90 seconds be with the emotion, feel it well up, if we're lucky, name where it might be in the body or what color it is or give it words, and then like, all right, like, Grey's Anatomy has a new season out.

Have you been watching it?

Like- I know ...

in, in that, like- I can be here for a second, and then I have to, like-

[00:16:54] Dr. Nicole: Right ...

[00:16:54] Jess: pick it up to let the body kind of learn how to be with that again. Um- Right ... and especially in witness of somebody else, right? Like, it's one thing to have your feelings in your own room or in the forest or, and a completely other thing to be like, "Now we're in shared space."

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And someone else gets to see my pain. Um-

[00:17:16] Dr. Nicole: Right. Yeah,

[00:17:17] Jess: absolutely. It's very vulnerable.

[00:17:19] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. You get to co-regulate with that person and have that moment. And, uh, my brain's like, "So many people are using AI for that." That's a whole other conversa- the deep breath. I know. So I'm like, "Oh, yep, here we go."

[00:17:34] Jess: AI can get f- get fucked. Ah. Like, and I'm officially on the record for that. Like- Nope, nope, nope.

[00:17:43] Dr. Nicole: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah.

[00:17:45] Jess: And so- But we're not gonna go there.

[00:17:47] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, I know. I was like, that's a whole other topic. But so people are starting to use it for, like, quote unquote therapy, which is not what I think therapy...

You know, it's bringing up a lot of existential questions.

[00:17:55] Jess: Or to talk to Jesus. Have you seen that?

[00:17:56] Dr. Nicole: Oh, I have seen that. I did see that.

[00:17:59] Jess: Yeah.

[00:18:01] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

I don't know how much silence we would need to hold for that. Woo. Yeah. Okay. Tech, tech bros are not Jesus. No. I'm just saying. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Okay. Sorry.

Oh, no, no. Progress. It's a needed conversation. It's, no, it's so, it's, it's on point. W- okay, how I feel is that, like, you can't, like, it's got the ums and the tone now, like, but you're not really co-regulating with it. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's fascinating, the voice stuff that it has and it, you know.

So what I think is real is that when you're with a human, you're co-regulating with them, right? It was as, uh- Yeah ... you share grief, as we sit with people who are sharing theirs with us, right? We're co-regulating together, and even if, quote-unquote, AI could ever do that for us, the reality is that we are still human beings that hold the h- like, the story that is being shared, right?

Like- Yeah ... there's actually such a beauty in that. There's another human being right here who's with you, who's truly not- Yeah ... just listening, also remembering. Like, remembering the things that you've said, remembering your experience, and truly knowing you. Yeah. And that connection being what I think brings so much healing as we're speaking here, right?

Is we need places where we can do that. And also, you, you really spoke to the nervous system attunement process, right? Where when we're retelling these difficult experiences, we're kind of really expanding our zone, uh, of comfort, our zone of, of discomfort, truly, really, with many of these stories, where you, you start to talk about it, some of the memories flood in.

You see, feel your body start to react, and then we can pause, as you said, and, like, talk about something else. Maybe a TV show, a positive memory. Maybe you do the body scan. And essentially what you're doing to your body is that gentle exposure therapy, right? Where you're like, "Here's that thing that happened, and I'm safe now.

Here's that thing that happened." Mm. All the memories, memories, memories, memories. Wow, I'm feeling a lot. Okay, deep breaths. I'm safe now, right? And so you start to teach the body that what happened is in the past, and that now where we're at, we're safe and we can really actually feel it, but in a titrated amount so that we're not going into that complete zone of dysregulation, um, and trying to, like, stay in that little edge of the stretch.

I usually talk about it as stretching a muscle rather than actually snapping it, right? Where you have an injury- Yeah ... and something happens. But, like, when you're stretching, it's not comfortable. It's actually really uncomfortable, and you have to take some deep- Yeah ... exhales to keep letting go, you know?

[00:20:27] Jess: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and also, like, you sharing that reminds me of,

[00:20:33] Dr. Nicole: um,

[00:20:34] Jess: um, Camille Sapara-Barton. Yes, who's been on the show. Yeah. Lovely, lovely, uh, grief worker. Mm-hmm. Um, and been in one workshop with them, and we were having a conversation about, like, there's so much focus in Western culture about, like, big transformative experiences.

Right? And catharsis and this whole, like, piece of like, "Oh, if I just do the thing, then, like, it will be over," and really, like, the, the pace at which the nervous system wants to move with grief is much slower than that. Same with fucking pleasure, right? Yeah.

[00:21:18] Dr. Nicole: Like,

[00:21:19] Jess: there's so much bypassing that happens in, "Oh, I'm gonna get to learn my body," and like, your body needs to feel safe with you first.

[00:21:28] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:21:29] Jess: Right? Um, and this, like, desire to, like, I don't wanna say, like, blow it up, but, like, you know, like, we want to, like, go to a retreat and change our life. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Mm-hmm. And it's like that is a, like, massive opening thing, and, like, everyone who has gone to retreats or big things like that, you know that there's a constriction after because it's usually too much, too fast, too soon.

[00:21:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:21:58] Jess: Some of it is wonderful, but, like, in that space and in that collective energy, like, we often do more than we're ready for. Yeah. Um, and so, like, in the drive to be over the grief, I just wanna stop crying about this, like, well, you... It's a relational wound. Whatever it is, whether it's a dream or something based on your identity or ac- an actual relationship that you lost through death or breakup, like, you are in relationship to that loss for the rest of your life.

[00:22:33] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:22:34] Jess: Some of them will be, you know, "Oh, yeah, I dated that person for six months," and then I'm like, you know, eventually move on and it's fine. Some of our losses, like, we will feel sad about them until we're no longer here.

[00:22:49] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:22:50] Jess: And, like, that piece also of, like, it's a lifetime relationship with the grief-

[00:22:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm

[00:22:58] Jess: is not something that people really like to hear.

[00:23:00] Dr. Nicole: No.

[00:23:01] Jess: Um, but also in the same way of, like, if you know the true reality of a thing, then you can face it in a different way. Yeah. Like, it's not a surprise that it lasts forever because you already know that, like, you know, in 20 years I'm, I may still get teary-eyed at the first figs I have in August because that's that thing that I shared with my friend Brooke.

[00:23:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:23:28] Jess: And that's okay. Like, that's our love and our friendship enduring-

[00:23:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:23:34] Jess: over time.

[00:23:35] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's no timeline on when you're, quote-unquote, "supposed to be done with grief," unless you're a psychologist who's giving you prolonged grief disorder. Just to take a shot at my own field.

Right? I've- I'll take many shots at my own field.

[00:23:55] Jess: The swear words that came out of my mouth when I learned that that was now a thing, um- ... I think I threw my phone across the bed, actually.

[00:24:06] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, to literally, for the listener who doesn't know, the DSM, there's a, there's a disorder in there called prolonged grief disorder, which I could give to a client who's sad, right?

So for, you know, for example, say you have a parent who lost their child, right, who is still, and I'm using that word in air quotes, "still" grieving years later. They come into my office, I'm like, "Yeah, your, here's your disorder. You're just grieving way too much," right? Versus having that deeper understanding of what grief can mean across different cultures.

And clearly what it means in this culture is that it's supposed to have a really neat timeline where you go back to work, right? And you're not in a therapist- Mm-hmm ... office for, quote-unquote, "healing" around that grief that's h- making it difficult for you to live in these systems. It's, it's horrendous, truly.

Yeah. And so I appreciate the cursing- Yeah ... and all of those feelings because it's at the heart of what you're speaking to. Like, how do we hold more capacity to, to really feel these feelings without pushing them away or putting them in a box? But here is the, quote-unquote, "field" of mental health saying, "Uh, no, that's a disorder.

We'll put that on there."

[00:25:16] Jess: Yeah. There's something completely wrong with you. Yeah. I mean, like, the other piece to that, like, I think one of the main, like, cultural understandings that people, again, Western culture have about grief are- Mm-hmm ... like, the five stages of grief.

[00:25:31] Dr. Nicole: Ah, yes. Right ... dismantle it, please.

[00:25:33] Jess: Which was observations and study of people who were diagnosed with terminal illness. So, like, yes, if you know that you have ALS and you will die, have a shorter lifespan than you were expecting, and you are aware that that is what is happening to you, the five stages of grief, yes, those are for you. It's not for everybody else.

Like, it's not, it's, it's the, like... It's, like, a helpful understanding, like, yes, anger can be there. Great. Anger is an important part of grief. Rage is an important part of grief. But, like, it gives a neat package to a thing that does not have a neat package for most people.

[00:26:17] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:19] Jess: Which I understand.

[00:26:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:26:22] Jess: For me-

[00:26:23] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:26:24] Jess: like, part of my work, even with pleasure work, you know, like, the top five tips for better blow jobs. Or like, do this and you will save your marriage. You know, like that, like- The world is uncertain. We have control over very little of it.

[00:26:41] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:26:41] Jess: So we want things that make us feel safe, a structure to make us feel safe.

And yeah, you can move through those five stages, and then they start all over again. Oh, yeah. Or there's, you know, and more that we could put in there- Exactly, exactly ... that you were not expecting. Yeah. Um, or you're in stage three, and then you have two more deaths in your life, or you lose your job, or have a hurricane come through and decimate your community.

Like- Mm-hmm ... it's, it's always there, so. Yeah.

[00:27:18] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah, it's, it's never linear, those five stages. Never linear. Like you said, six, seven, 10, 20 more stages, right? And so one of my favorite classes when I went through my training was a class on grief, and it was such a, a beautiful space to really dismantle, like we said, the diagnoses, the, quote, unquote, "five stages of grief", right?

And what I appreciated about that course was also talking about the ways that we grieve so many things every day, right? There's, you know, if we use the capital T trauma, little T trauma, like maybe we do the same, you know, capital G grief, little... You know, and, and where do we define all of that? Mm-hmm. But if we're talking about little G grief, right, um, my professor had talked about, you know, the grieving of when you go back to your hometown, and you see that that favorite restaurant that you went to for years shut down, right?

Do we really see that- Mm-hmm ... as a grief? Like, I, I do. I think that's important, but I think many people, like, write that off and don't think about that as, like, a loss that they're experiene- experiencing. Or even, um, when you have, uh, people who decide to have children, right? And they have that first day with the baby, which is so exciting, so exciting, what a...

And, and scary, right? Like, what are you doing first day, you know? Yeah. Um, and also, there's just the significant grief of the pairing, whether it's, you know, in, in school he used a dyad, but I'll use my polyamorous perspective, whether it's a dyad, triad, or a polycule, that previously had that dynamic where there were no children, right?

There's grief- Mm-hmm ... in that previous identity that is now gone, even though there's the excitement- Yeah ... of this new beautiful gift. And so it was so much to sit with just the reality of how much every day there are beautiful things being brought into our life, and also loss at the same time, and often they're deeply connected.

You get one, and you lose another. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, life seems to move in that sort of, like, continual pairing.

[00:29:13] Jess: Yeah. So much of, like, oh, if we do the right thing, everything's gonna be fine. Mm-hmm. And it's like, no, we're h- we're humans on a planet that is- Having a really hard time because of choices that, uh, have been made by the rich and powerful Mm-hmm.

It's a constant flow of what is good, what is hard.

[00:29:40] Dr. Nicole: Yeah,

[00:29:40] Jess: absolutely. What is unima- unimaginable in both directions. Like, great, great love, great, great enjoyment-

[00:29:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:29:48] Jess: and great, great destruction and sadness.

[00:29:50] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm curious for you some rituals that you have or invite people to explore.

I'm looking up at a Post-it Note that I have that says, "What to do when you're sad." Uh, and there's a, a whole list of things I do when I'm feeling sad, um, to, to be with it, and I think I should add on there probably a last one, just, like, just be with it, 'cause I have all these things I do, right? Mm-hmm.

Like, going outside, watching a movie, a sad movie and crying, reaching out to community, uh, journaling, dancing, right? But I, I definitely don't have on there, like, actually just be with it. So I'm curious for you, what are some of the grief rituals that you invite people to practice and bring into their own life?

[00:30:39] Jess: Yeah, I mean, I, every two weeks I hold, um, mindful erotic grief. Mm. Which is, I think March will be three years of doing that. Nice. Um, yeah. It's a really special- Yeah ... space. Um, and really it's like, one, having a continual space, like, that people know is there, right? I rarely take Wednesdays off. Every, every once in a while.

My body knows, like, on Wednesdays, like, this is the time. Like, this is the time that we have set aside to be with grief- Yeah ... to be with whoever shows up. But the invitation is really, like, what does my body need, and what does my grief need, and can pleasure be here if I want it to be, right? And so there's a guided meditation to kind of be like, "Where is grief in my body?"

If that you have access to that. And then there's a 40 to 45-minute playlist where I pipe it through the Zoom, everybody's cameras are mics, and mics are off, and then people practice, like, okay, like, what does my grief need?

[00:31:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:31:55] Jess: In that, like, movement, sound, what is, you know, what is true for me? What is true for my lineage?

What is true for this moment in time? And so, like, sometimes people masturbate, sometimes they take a bath- Mm ... sometimes they just, like, lay on the floor and sob. Mm. Dance to the music, write songs, journal. Like, there's just, like, whatever it needs to be, but we're here together, we're in community. There is time at the end to speak to it if you want to.

Or ask people to just be like, "I want someone to see my face being sad."

[00:32:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:32:33] Jess: And, you know, hold that in silence. But what it does is it, like, puts the power and autonomy back in the person.

[00:32:42] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:32:43] Jess: Right? 'Cause it's like, "Oh, inside of myself I know how to find where grief is."

[00:32:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:32:49] Jess: Does it want touch? Does it want to move?

Does it want to scroll? Like, does it, like, it's like, "Fuck off." Like- Yeah ... "I know we're here, but like- Yeah ... right now I'm just gonna scroll on Instagram 'cause I don't wanna be with it." And so there's choice. You're not alone in it. Like, yes, we're on Zoom, but, like, it's held. And then because I've been doing it for all of these years, like, I weave a web of everybody who has been there.

[00:33:16] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:33:17] Jess: And so it's like, maybe it's six people on Wednesday, but it's actually, like, 500 people-

[00:33:24] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:33:24] Jess: that are also holding this grief with you. Like, that's- Mm. And so there's a lot of magic in that space. Um- Yeah ... and the, like, please go and, like, build ritual for yourself. You have the ingredients, like, movement, sound, sharing the story.

[00:33:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:41] Jess: How do you get it outside of yourself? But we all get to, like, you know, pass it along. What do you like- Yeah ... if you're in Colorado, like, do you and your friends want to go to the mountains and, like, scream off- Yeah ... the edge of the mountain, and then write about the feelings that are coming up? If you're like, "Oh, we need to go," like, "Our friend just died.

They loved dancing, like, we're gonna have a fucking dance party."

[00:34:08] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:34:10] Jess: Great. Like, are you someone who wants to just be with the trees? Mm. Mm-hmm. Go be with the trees. Like, there's no, there's no wrong way to do it. It's just, like, we need to do it.

[00:34:24] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:26] Jess: Mm-hmm. That piece is there. I'm working on one which feels, like, complicated and edgy- Mm

but of actually doing, like, a more specific, like, we are here to masturbate together guided process that kind of weaves in all of those same things, and then really it just is, like, what, what feels true for the moment for the person. There's a book, The Care We Dream Of. Mm. It's by Zena Sharman. It's about queer and trans healthcare in the big picture.

[00:34:59] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:00] Jess: And one of the essays in there by Blythe Barno talks about, like, ritual, and queer ritual, and, like, disabled queer ritual, and, like, it doesn't have to be elaborate. It just has to be on purpose. Hmm. Yeah, intentionality. And so it's like, oh, right now, like, what are we grieving, Nicole? Like, what can we do about it?

Are we going to take three minutes and name the grief? That's true for us right now, and then, like, play a song or- Mm ... move our bodies or, you know, like, light a candle. Like, it just- Mm ... it gets to be this creative, alchemical process- Mm-hmm ... depending on the moment and the people and the grief that wants to be honored.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:35:51] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, and so I hear that intentionality to all this, right? You could just light a candle or you could light a candle with intention, right? Of honoring the grief, right? And that being that- Yeah ... that shift that makes so much difference here, as well as the community that you're sharing it with and you're telling about.

And I'm curious to hear more about the trickiness of the space you envision with the masturbation and that being the intentional focus. Obviously, I know there are so many tricky pieces to that, and also I think back of the work of Betty Dodson, who used to hold those masturbation circles and do work like that.

So I'm, I'm curious what you see and how you see that as healing and the tricky nuance of that.

[00:36:34] Jess: Yeah, I mean, at this moment in time, the main piece is, like, I only work virtually.

[00:36:39] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Yeah,

[00:36:39] Jess: yeah. Um, I'm currently in an immigration process where I can't work where I am. Mm-hmm. I can work online. Mm. I have a business in America.

Um, and so guiding multiple people through a process online is harder- Oh, yeah, of course ... than if we are in person where, like, part of that collective piece. Also, so much of my work is about safety and choice. Yeah. And so any time I do any sort of thing where people may be enjoying self-pleasure, it is a cameras off, mics off situation so that someone who might not be able to come to a group experience where they have to hear other people or have other people witness their process can be in a group space and start to learn how to, like, be in pleasure collectively.

Right. It's more of, like, me knowing where everyone in the room is when I can't hear or see anybody in the room.

[00:37:42] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:37:44] Jess: If I'm, if I'm doing, if I'm doing a guided thing, right? Right. Um, it's very easy for one-on-one clients doing that where it's like, "Oh, yeah," like I know what's happening. We are in conversation.

I can notice how they're breathing, offer suggestions, like if they need to stop for conversation or like, oh, this is actually where we have moved only into tears, like pleasure is not here anymore. Like- Mm ... there's a, there's an ability to tend that in a much more attuned way. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:17] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely.

That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Right? The nuance of the online versus the digital and- Yeah. All of this is definitely making me think about a deeper question of the erotic and pleasure in the sense that I imagine so many people, my younger self certainly, would be like, "Yeah, but Jess, how am I supposed to feel, quote-unquote, turned on?

Like, what do you mean that I'm gonna do this while I'm also sad? Like, what does that even mean?" I, I think my younger self didn't have, like, a deeper understanding of eroticism and touch without a goal and stuff like that. And so- Yeah ... I'm curious how, how do you answer that person who's like, "What do you mean I'm turned on am I sad at the same time?

How does that work?"

[00:39:06] Jess: Yeah. I mean, that's a very good question.

[00:39:08] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:39:08] Jess: Like, I, I typically start with, like, "Well, have you ever, like, cried after having an orgasm?" If you've had an orgasm, like, if that has been an experience that you have known- Mm-hmm ... you already know this. Anecdotally, most people are like, "I don't wanna talk about that."

Yeah. I'm not supposed to cry after I orgasm. But, like, you know, in the way that, like, what is it? 90 seconds? It's 90 seconds for an emotion to flow through the body if you'll just let it do it. Mm. Like, I remember times, you know, this is post-church, pre-sex coach, where, like, I would just be masturbating and then, like, I would cry or I would...

I couldn't scream, but, like, I would, my body would silent scream. Yeah. Um, and I would, like, check. I'd be like, "Is this okay? Is this what's going on? I don't know. It feels okay." Like, you know, also coming from traditions that, like, talk about, uh, demon possession- Right ... and things like Right ... you know, like just being like, you know, like all of that complicated stuff in there.

And then, like, for my body, once that, like, sadness or rage or terror, like, whatever it was, like, got to crescendo and be felt, my body could come back to pleasure again. Sometimes that would be two minutes, sometimes that would be, like, it would take a day or two. You know, like, and so in that allowing all of our, ourselves to be present, if there's a, like, space of like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna masturbate or I'm having sex with my partner, and, like, we have a picture of like this should be like this.

Like, it should be sexy, it should be fun, it should be hot, it should, like, orgasms, whatever. But if it's like, oh, I'm showing up to my body, my body's building arousal, and then it's like, oh, no, I... Now I need to be sad for a minute. Part of that self-pleasure, self-honoring, honoring the erotic- And pull in Audre Lorde's- Yeah

uses the erotic here. Like- Yeah ... that the tears are just as important as the arousal, the orgasm, the turn on. And I think the discomfort comes because we have a picture of what it should look like. Mm. Instead of like, "Yeah, I'm just, I'm just here." And I mean, like, you can if you ask my wife, like, quite often, like, I need to cry before I can have sex.

Mm. Like, I need that to be, my day was hard, or my body just has some backlog of stuff. I'm like, "Yeah, I can't actually show up to you until I, like, let this move through, and then we can hook up."

[00:42:07] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Uh-huh.

[00:42:09] Jess: Like, you know? And, like, and they know that about me. And, and so she's like, yeah, that's, for me, that's a part of my process.

Also, like, I nerd out about this stuff. Yeah. This is my life's work. Yeah. And so I have much quicker access to that than maybe the average person does because I'm swimming in these waters all the time.

[00:42:30] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um- Mm-hmm ...

[00:42:32] Jess: and so, like, just wanting to know, like, I'm saying all of these things, and, like, it may not be your experience.

[00:42:39] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:42:40] Jess: Because it takes practice.

[00:42:42] Dr. Nicole: Right. Exactly.

[00:42:43] Jess: And permission, and, like, safe partners who are okay with that being part of the process and don't shame you or shut down, or if they do, they come back and repair. Like, there's a lot in, in that of building capacity within relational space to have that be held, and then also to, like, trust that you can be witnessed in that.

Mm. Mm-hmm.

[00:43:10] Dr. Nicole: Like, yeah. Yeah. It's a lot of vulnerability and empowerment, right? Both/and- Yeah ... to be in that space. And I think about the orgasm and, and those times when I am holding so much, the orgasm and the breath that I have in those moments is fundamentally different. It, it feels almost- Mm-hmm ... like, like it's, it's not an actual cry.

I have cried, but, like, often when I'm holding so much stress and tension and feeling that weight, like, I can feel the orgasm more as like a exhale, cry out when it actually happens. It's very, like, deep and cathartic in a way where it's- Yeah ... almost like shatters that open for me, right? And I think it's really interesting to think about the orgasm, the breath, and even breath when we're crying, right, and the connections to the body and h- and how different all of those experiences can be depending on what you're holding and bringing into the container.

And as you noted, the setting and of who you're with, right? And so if you're not with- Yeah ... someone that you trust to go to that space, very, very similar to the psychedelic work I do, right? Like, if you don't trust the container- You won't, you won't go that far. And, and, and you might not even feel anything.

I've had some clients who, like, really don't feel anything even though we know we've dosed the appropriate dose, right? Because the container doesn't feel safe yet enough for them, right? Yeah. And so it's very similar with our pleasure here, where, like, if you don't feel like you can cry, I do ask that deeper question.

Like, do you feel like you can really orgasm? And I know some people do. Mm-hmm. But I, I would argue that even if you can, I feel like there's a deeper depth that is- Yeah ... reached when you feel like you can cry with that same person.

[00:44:51] Jess: Yeah. And, like, that is beautiful part of relating. Yeah. Um, the other piece, like, as you were talking where, like, part of orgasming is, like, there is a loss of control.

Mm. Oh, yeah. Right? Like, there is that, like, point where it's like, "Yep, here it goes." Mm-hmm. I can't really, you know, do anything about that. Um, it's just going to be what it is. But that also mirrors the grief, right? Of like, I'm trying to control this, I'm trying to hold it in, I'm trying to, like, be presentable for my family or, you know, whatever.

And so, like, the erotic energy, the arousal, the orgasm of it, like, also helps to usher the grief through. Because it's like, oh, here's a, here's a point where, like, you don't have everything clutched so tight.

[00:45:41] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:45:42] Jess: And so now this is, like, it's able to come out. And that's why, you know, one of the reasons why people cry.

Cry hard, come hard, right?

[00:45:51] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly.

[00:45:51] Jess: Um, because you... Your body is taking the opportunity to move some of those emotions that you have stuffed down-

[00:46:01] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... through that process. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And as you said, it's a practice, right? We don't just- Mm-hmm ... you know, wake up one day getting to cry that hard and come that hard.

You actually have to really intentionally work with it, which often includes, again, as we spoke to, the discomfort, identifying the containers where you can really be held in that both with yourself and other people. And you spoke a little bit to your previous consciousness and the tears that used to come when you would self-pleasure.

And for the listener who hasn't heard our first episode, I know we went so much deeper into that paradigm of- Yeah. ... Christianity and purity culture. So maybe go back and listen to the older episode, dear listener. But I'm curious for you, the, the tears and the orgasms that have come over the years in your own self-development.

I think there's a lot of grief in that, right? How, how much do you change over the years, the things that turn you on over the years. What have you learned- Mm-hmm ... in your own relationship with grief, um, and pleasure over the many years that you've been doing this work as a nerd on these work- Yeah. ... you know, like, in your personal space.

Yeah. I

[00:47:10] Jess: need to push, push my glasses up to get nerdy. Yeah, exactly. Tell

[00:47:13] Dr. Nicole: me about it.

[00:47:15] Jess: I'll tip back a little bit into our previous episode, but like I left the church in my mid-20s-

[00:47:22] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:47:22] Jess: and really was like, "I have no idea how to be sexual. I don't have like-" Yeah ... you know, like, I don't know what to do, and I feel like I'm way behind and whatever.

So it was in this weird space of like don't really know things, don't have the skills to talk about sex and pleasure. Right. Don't know who's safe to talk to about that because of the culture that I came in, so I was alone. Like, very, very alone in that and in this process. And like my body was doing all of this like beautiful, like in retrospect, like beautiful healing work.

Yeah. I didn't talk to anybody about it for probably 10 years. Mm. Wow. Because like who do you... Like if you're not in communities that talk about sex, like, or grief, who do you talk to about, "Oh, yeah, I was masturbating my sadness away"? Right. Like I think what is really important and special now is that like community.

Like- Yep ... that there are people, and like part of that is like I have created that.

[00:48:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:37] Jess: I have made it a space. Like people find me because they're like, "Oh, I lost my husband, and I am so horny, and nobody will talk to me about it." Oh. I'm like, "Yeah, we can... Like, let's talk about grief and sex. Let's talk about grief and pleasure."

Great. You know, that that like, the tab- the, the double-ended taboo of like we don't talk about grief, we don't talk about death, and we don't talk about pleasure. Yeah. And like, yeah. Yeah. So I can talk about all of it. Uh-huh. Mindful erotic grief, like I made that because I needed a place, and my body loves self-pleasure.

It loves masturbation. So like that's like was the baseline of that, that piece. But what feels very different now is like it is a conversation.

[00:49:24] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:49:25] Jess: There are lots of people who are coming in and out of this, like what does it mean to utilize pleasure in our grief practices? And like erotic, sexual, sensual, I mean, yeah, all of those words we could go into what do they mean for everybody, but- Yeah

like there's the sex of it, but then there's also just the like we have sensory inputs in our bodies, and like can we really just like enjoy this recipe-

[00:49:56] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:49:58] Jess: of our great-grandma who's no longer here?

[00:50:00] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:50:00] Jess: And like the pleasure of that being part of our grieving of this person. That is also like in that.

I think that's the biggest piece is like- I w- felt very alone for a long time, and now- Mm ... I do not feel alone. And the people that are interacting with my work are also experiencing that, like-

[00:50:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:50:24] Jess: I don't feel alone. Yeah. And I can be this, like, have this weird, like... Oh, you know, like I was thinking about my ex and, you know, we- they're gone, and I fantasized about fucking them and had a great orgasm, and then a great cry.

Mm. And, like, and I can say that and be celebrated and- Yeah ... be asked questions, and I, like, don't have to be alone in the fullness of, of my grief, right? Right. Um, and then also within, like... I'm just gonna, like, shout out my wife. Yeah, do it. They are also a queer ritualist. They're a widow. And, like, we get to make magic in our own relationship to each other, and then of course, like, in the ways that our polyamory, like, extends out into, into the world.

Um, but there's something about, for me, like finding people to be in sexual and intimate relationships with where there's like, "Yeah, we're gonna show up to the sadness. We're gonna show up to- Yeah ... the kink. We're gonna show up to the perversion," the, like, all of the goodness of what can exist here, and just fucking play in it.

Like- Oh, yeah ... I don't know. Like, are we going to include rope and include poetry and include this? Or like, is there going to be edging until crying? Is there going to, like- Yeah ... like, what is... Within our relationship, there gets to be ritual around all of these things too, like when we're like, "Yeah, this is what I need."

[00:52:11] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:11] Jess: Sometimes also not, like- Right, yeah ... as we, you know, spoke before, it's like, yeah, that, that orgasm brought along with it all these other feelings, right? Right. Um, and so that is really special to be inside of. Mm-hmm. 'Cause it is, like, the collaborative experience of creating grief ritual is really, is really important.

[00:52:38] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I'm hearing this continuing thread of how essential community is, right? Yeah. These things that we feel like we're the only one, that no one will understand us, that we're so alone, that we're so blank, blank, blank, blank, blank. And then when you find community of people who can see and understand that, what powerful medicine that is for that sense of isolation and disconnection.

It really is that connection- Yeah ... that heals so much, right? And I think it's wild to me that- If someone were to come r- not really to us, maybe our younger selves, but, uh, come to us and say, "Oh, um, I'm going through all this grief, and so I scheduled a massage to take care of my body and really feel good," you know, people are like, "Yeah, like, that's so great.

That... I'm so glad you're taking care of yourself." However, if you came back- ... and said, "Yeah, I'm moving through so much grief, so I masturbated and I had this massive orgasm," like, "You did what? How dare you destroy our narratives of what grief looks like. You're supposed to wear black-" Yeah ... not be using a magic wand," right?

Like, what are you... Like, what... It's just these narratives we have so deep, right? And so as you're saying, when you find community- Mm ... who can understand that, um, a massage, masturbation, laying snuggled up in a blanket or Shabari, right, where you're really tight, really held, right? Yeah. All those things are beautiful ways to be able to process grief and the experience, right?

And, and we just have such- Yeah ... narrow narratives of what is possible around that. And so I, I'm, I'm really grateful that you're speaking to a more expanded view of the ways that we can grieve, because as we've named throughout this conversation, it's also the ways that we just feel flat out, right? And so when we create more space for grief, we create more space for feeling, and we create more space for pleasure.

[00:54:37] Jess: Yeah. In the same vein, like, I think about with, like, pleasure work. Mm-hmm. It's like, oh, well, like, how do you know what you want? Right? Like, how do you figure that out? How do you, like, test it out? And then, like, also in the grief space, like, how do you know what you like? Do you like to be around a lot of people?

Do you like to be really quiet to yourself? Is a massage a thing that's, like, really nice for you, or is that gonna, like, send you off into, like, "No, thank you," like, "I haven't been touched since my partner died, and I'm not ready for that yet."

[00:55:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:55:11] Jess: Like, starting to learn the ways that our body and our heart and our spirit, like, needs support in those times, 'cause then we can ask for it, right?

Like, the same way that I can be like, "Oh, yeah, today I wanna feel, like, really submissive and turned on, and I don't wanna have an orgasm, so, like, can you just, like, eat me out until I say stop?" Like-

[00:55:37] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:55:38] Jess: if you know that about yourself, you can ask for it and get what you need. Right. And in the same way with, like, grief, it's like, "Oh, I really, like...

Can we go for a hike and just not talk about it?" Like, I don't wanna be alone. I need to move my body. I need to be outside. But do not mention the sadness. Mm-hmm.

[00:55:57] Dr. Nicole: Right? And then

[00:55:59] Jess: it l- allows, like, our people to show up for us. It allows us to get what we need and- That all takes practice. Yeah.

[00:56:09] Dr. Nicole: Exactly.

Exactly ...

[00:56:10] Jess: and trial and error, and being like, "Oh, I thought I wanted to go, like, to this dinner party. This is the last place I wanna be." Like- Yeah. ... "No, thank you. No, thank you." Like, "Get me out of here." And be like- Right ... "Oh, yeah, like, seeing a bunch of people being happy right now is not where I wanna be." Mm.

Mm-hmm. Or with all of the shit that's happening to queer and trans folks in the US right now, like, maybe I don't wanna spend as much time with my straight friends. Yeah. 'Cause they, they do not understand in the same way, and that's okay. Like, knowing who can, what can hold your grief-

[00:56:52] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:56:53] Jess: and that it's okay to have boundaries around that.

Um- Yeah.

[00:56:57] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, and it's an embodied-

[00:56:58] Jess: It's really important.

[00:56:59] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely, and it's such an embodied, ongoing experience. Like you said, you might say, "Sure, I'm, I'm down for this party," and then you got there, and you're like, "Wow, this does not feel right," right? And so, um- Yeah ... or you do hang out with your straight friends thinking it will be okay, and then it's not.

Or you say no, and then you really want to, right? It's that ever-evolving- Yeah ... relationship to yourself and to your pleasure. And so I think it's so beautiful to invite all of us, you know, when we have these moments in our lives of decision, which is endless, there's so many in just a day alone- ... of, of what you can do with your time, right?

To take that body scan and really feel into, "Okay, what does feel aligned with me?" And then how can I have the compassion to also assess as I get to the actual experience whether it still feels aligned, right? And when it does feel- Yeah ... misaligned, how do you reorient? And, and, and of course, as we noted, there's so much grief in that, right?

Like you, you plan to go to that party, and then you just don't feel like it that night of or whatever experience. There's grief for that whole night of what you thought could happen- Yeah ... where you would go, what you would do, all of that, or even the great things that happen, right? We often, like, fantasize about, "That thing I'm gonna go do is gonna be so great, so great, so great," and then we have to get there, and it's not the same thing, you know?

It's never what we think it is. Yeah. Confidently we can imagine, and it's never what it is, right? 'Cause the universe always gives you something else, you know? Yeah. Uh, because we can't control it all, right? As much as we want to of like, "I'm gonna go here. This is gonna happen and that." It's rude. I know, right?

How dare it? How dare it keep things exciting and interesting? Um, but, like, that, that continual embrace of, like, knowing that grief is gonna be an everyday situation, and so is your pleasure. And also, how do... can you deepen that relationship of really being with yourself and your community, right? That interconnected- Yeah

dance of how you show up for yourself, and those days where maybe you don't wanna show up, but it is a community moment, and you're there, right? Uh, and like you said, it's a practice because every time you're taking that scan, you're building the neuronal pathways- To actually sense- Mm-hmm ... into those areas of the body, and then even just having that sense is first, first step.

There we also have to find language to communicate to the people around us what we're experiencing. Yeah. And that's difficult in grief, 'cause we don't have a lot of experience with that, and it's d- really difficult in the erotic space, right? Like, how do you wanna be touched? How do you wanna be held in this moment that you're crying?

Some of us are, like, so, so s- myself included, still trying to find even more language to describe that. And, and so I really appreciate you bringing in that invitation of this as a practice. This isn't just a quick pill that you're gonna take and wake up. You don't just t- read one book, one workshop, one this.

This is long-term relational practice. Deep work. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:59:51] Jess: Yeah. You really never know. No, you don't. What's gonna, what's gonna happen. Like, that piece of, um- Oh ... yeah, like, there's, like, with this, the mindful erotic practice that happens every two weeks, there's some times where I'm like, yeah, like, I feel ready to grieve, and then, like, I get there, and I'm like, "Nope."

Nope. I'm like, "Okay." I don't feel it. Or, like, other times I'm like, "I'm feeling really g- like, I'm feeling good today. I'm feeling whatever," and then, like, something hits in my bo- like, whether it's, like, a lyric from the song, or, like- Yeah ... a thing that somebody named on the way in, and then I'm like, "Oh- Oh ... I'm gonna have to, like, give myself enough time to come back to be able to, like, hopefully be able to facilitate the last 15 minutes of this thing."

Like, you know, it's, like, there's no rhyme or reason.

[01:00:44] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:00:45] Jess: And, like, saying that as someone who practices this pretty consistently- Yeah ... um, as a way to be like, if you are overwhelmed or surprised by what occurs, like, that is very normal.

[01:01:00] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:01:00] Jess: And may never change. Oh. Um, yeah. There's two things, um, as you were speak- speaking, that, like, I just wanna name out- Mm-hmm

into the space. Yeah. Um, one of them is, like, if you take two minutes a day to, like, check in and name how you're feeling. So, like, if I do it right now, I'm like, I'm feeling excited and slightly depressed and hungry right now. Mm. Mm-hmm. That, like, taking the time, and I did that really quickly, like, it will likely take you longer than that.

But to touch into, like, what is true for you in this moment, you start to build allyship with your body and the, like, what is actually happening. And I think in that piece of, like, oh, we have to go to work, or, like- We've been seeing livestream of genocide for over two years, and then also influencers telling you about their awesome vacation in Bali and, you know, the day-to-day of living life in countries that are not being bombed.

[01:02:21] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:02:22] Jess: Being able to be like, "Yeah, I feel, I feel safe and also horrified." Those get to exist. They get to be here. Then the, like...

I'm ca- I'm thinking of the word. The cognitive dissonance. There's the word- Mm ... I'm looking for, of like my current reality and then, like, the greater reality or the ways that my internal and external go together, like, get to kind of come on alignment and build allyship. Be like, "Yeah, what you are experiencing, like, yes, you are safe and warm and also full of great sadness."

[01:03:01] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:03:03] Jess: And people might tell you otherwise or try to be like, "Oh, well, why are you feeling this way about this? Like, look at your life." Mm. Or, you know, like, "You're in a better place. Be grateful for what you have." Like, you know, like all of those things that we say-

[01:03:17] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[01:03:18] Jess: 'cause we don't know how to be with the sadness.

Right. That within yourself you can know it's true.

[01:03:26] Dr. Nicole: Hmm.

[01:03:27] Jess: And then the other piece, I will name-drop Gina Breedlove into the ether. Uh, she's an excellent grief worker based out of New York City, and she talks about being with grief. She calls it griefletting, like, like bloodletting, right? Like, you have- Okay

to do it on a regular basis- Yeah ... so that it does not back up.

[01:03:52] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:03:53] Jess: So that it can be part of... We feed our- We try to feed ourselves every day. We try to drink water. We try to, you know, do these things, like, also, like, letting your grief be present a little bit every day as a way to be more in alignment, right?

And I don't know, when I first heard that terminology, I was like, oh, like that, like, that made a lot of sense in my body.

[01:04:19] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:04:20] Jess: And so just as a way to be like grief tending, grief- Right ... support, grief, like, whatever the word is that, like, feels right to you. Like, if griefletting is the one that makes it make sense in your body, like-

[01:04:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm

[01:04:35] Jess: run with it.

[01:04:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, staying in connection with it rather than, as you said, letting it back up and, like, and be unable to flow, being completely dammed. You gotta create, like, a consistent flow out, right? Rather than then, like, really building that up and having an explosion, right? We wanna have these, like- Yeah

titrated experiences where you stay in connection. And so- I'm curious, Jess, with all of your wisdom and everywhere that you've gone, what words of advice would you give to your younger self who's just starting this journey of the connection between the erotic and grief? I know you're laughing. Um- Yeah ...

[01:05:13] Jess: I think that, like, it's really funny 'cause, like, I don't know if this is true for you, but there's, like, there's pieces of Christianity that remain, like- Oh, sure

like in, and I'm like the still, small voice. Ah.

[01:05:31] Dr. Nicole: Right?

[01:05:32] Jess: Like, just keep trusting-

[01:05:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[01:05:36] Jess: that. You know, which like, in the words I would use now, is your intuition. Yeah. Right? In the church, you know, that voice is God, and God is outside of you. But being like, "Okay, like, you feel alone, but, like, keep trusting that thing that feels true."

[01:05:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:05:56] Jess: Because it eventually, like, I was very alone. I'd lost most of my community, and now I, like, am in this, like, sweet spot of queer folks who are pleasure and body and grief nerds- Yeah ... and, like- Yeah ... we get to be in this, like, these questions of how do we embody all of this more. And then I think the other piece, you know, and of course this is, like, the same for any trauma abuse survivor, right?

Like, your story is your story whenever you want to tell it.

[01:06:35] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:06:36] Jess: But, like, to my younger self, like, you can start talking more explicitly about the trauma of the church- Mm ... sooner. Mm. Like, you don't, you do not have to keep the secrets. Yeah. 'Cause that, like, has informed all of my work. Like, all of it is subversive in the like, yeah, teaching you more pleasure.

Oh, we're gonna learn how to grieve. Oh, this, like, this. But, like, very specifically to dismantle Christian, white supremacist, patriarchal, fascist power structures. Like-

[01:07:16] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[01:07:17] Jess: the hearts of my work, you are not alone, and fuck the system.

[01:07:20] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:07:22] Jess: Uh, but, you know, just little by little. Oh, I mean, you're doing it.

You're doing it. I'm, I'm doing it, but it's like, it's not, like, that's not what I lead with. Oh, of course. Of course, of course. I hear you. Right? Yeah. But that is, like, the underpinning weaving of that is, like- Right ... the reason we are where we are is because of- The church.

[01:07:47] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, years of ge- genocide from the Christians.

I mean, that's how we got to this culture, right? It's ins- Yeah.

[01:07:57] Jess: Um- ... and the way that they did that was to keep us away from our pleasure and our bodies- Yeah. Yeah ... and our grief process to be- Mm-hmm ... they're better off in heaven. No, they're not. Mm. So.

[01:08:12] Dr. Nicole: I really hope you can feel the power of the work that you're doing every day.

[01:08:17] Jess: I do. It's pretty- Yeah ... magic. Yeah.

[01:08:21] Dr. Nicole: Hell yeah, Jess.

[01:08:22] Jess: Just over here in my little corner in the trees.

[01:08:24] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Yeah. You're doing it. You're doing it. I love it so much. Doing some shit. Oh. Ah. Dismantling things one pleasure orgasm at a time. Yeah. And tear. Mm. Yeah. Jess, so it's been such a joy to explore the connection between the erotic and grief today.

And as we come towards the end of our time, I'm gonna take another deep breath with you.

And I'll check in and see if there's anything else that you wanna share with the listeners. Otherwise, I can guide us towards our closing question.

[01:09:04] Jess: Yeah. What feels important to say in the current state of the US political climate, but also, like, the general, like, climate catastrophe we are- Yeah ... in, is to, like, not discount the places where you have choice-

[01:09:28] Dr. Nicole: Mm

[01:09:29] Jess: and to exercise those places. Like, as small as, like-

[01:09:35] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[01:09:35] Jess: I really should have this for lunch, but I want to have this. I said I was going to go to this barbecue. I need to rest. In the places where we can do something from our own truth and autonomy and power, as little as it may be, shifts things,

[01:10:00] Dr. Nicole: right?

[01:10:00] Jess: Mm-hmm. So when it feels, oh, like, "What can I do? What can I do? What can I do?" Like, in the same way that we titrate everything else, like, we can't do the big things if we don't first learn how to do the small things, and that's, like, just as important. Yeah. Absolutely. One step at a time. Step at a time. Yeah.

[01:10:24] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Jess, it's been such a joy to get into this, so much so, and the nuance of it, and I hope it's inviting ... You know, it's certainly inviting me, and I hope it invites all of the listeners to really go slow with themselves, to find community and the people who can continue to grow in this area with them, because you spoke to that in so many different ways.

Um, the communities you're building, your wife, the people who have been there along for the ride, right? We hold hands in this work as we do it, and that's what makes us so strong and resilient against all of these systems, right? And so I'm really grateful for all the places that, that we journeyed to today with that.

Yeah. And yeah, the last question I have for you is the question that I ask everyone on the show . And that is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:11:19] Jess: Ooh, that's interesting. I was just kind of surprised at what is coming up. But, like- Mm ... I feel like ... The thing that popped in, so we're gonna say it, 'cause still s- still small voice.

Let's, like, let's follow that. Yes. All of the noises and vocalizations that you need and want to make are important. Yeah. Like, whether that is in sex- Yeah ... you know, growling, screaming, crying. I remember one time with a partner, I made a sound that was very much like a Muppet-

[01:11:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm ... laughing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[01:11:59] Jess: Um, which, like, then led to, like, minutes of laughter again.

Yeah. Yeah. Emotional release, and then tears. Mm. But, like, it was like that was the sound that came, like, from my pel- ... Like, I felt it move all the way up. Yeah. Absolutely. But the, like ... I think there's a lot of focus on, like, can we have words? But can we just let the sound sound, right? So yeah, whatever sounds you make while you're fucking, while you're crying, while you're doing whatever.

Like- They're normal.

[01:12:36] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. And they're good. Yeah. Yeah. You know? Yes. I mean, society has so many rules on what's, quote unquote, "normal" and not normal. Yeah. What sounds are allowed, you know, in private, public, all that sort of stuff. I, I just, I think it's comical that, like, as you were doing that, I had a, had a burp, like, come up, and so I muted- Uh-huh

the mic. Like, I literally muted the mic. I was like, "Oh, I don't want my burp, like, in this." And you're like, "All the sounds are good." And I'm like, "Oh, oh, mm, hmm." Yeah. But there's so much of, like, oh, you're doing, like, a recording, a show. You don't put that in there, right? But then what does that mean if I'm with a lover, right?

And I do feel comfortable, but, like, if I'm with a lover and then it's like, oh, I feel this burp coming on. Or, like, people always talk about, like, the queef or the fart. Oh, God forbid. Right? Like, God forbid, you know? And so it's, it's interesting, like, those moments where we do pause and you hit mute on the mic.

Like, what, what i- what does that say about our society and our culture about what areas of the body are allowed in the public space, in the private space? What things are we supposed to be afraid of, shameful about, right? It's a whole thing. Yeah.

[01:13:40] Jess: Yeah.

[01:13:40] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:13:41] Jess: And then you're like, "Oh, I'm constricting. I'm this."

Right. Letting the voice not be heard.

[01:13:47] Dr. Nicole: Right. Let me button up my shirt- Yeah ... a little bit taller. Like, just- Yeah ... really hold it back. No. Yeah. It's very serious. Yeah, exactly. Well, I appreciate that invitation to let all the sounds out. I, I think my... one of my most attractive traits in people who, um... is when people can laugh really fully, 'cause it's such an embodied- Mm-hmm

thing, that they fully get to that, whether it's, like, goofy or silly or, or quote, unquote, "strange laughs." When I hear someone really hold that in their body, I'm like, "Oh, that's someone who's connected to their pleasure, and can really, like, feel all of it." Yeah. Uh, and so what a beautiful invitation for me and all of the listeners to really allow ourselves those sounds that come out, and, and truly to play with them.

Yeah.

[01:14:31] Jess: Yeah. Yeah. Make your noises. Exactly.

[01:14:35] Dr. Nicole: Uh, well jess, I'm sure everyone is just dying to know, where can they learn more about you, your grief- Mm ... rituals, your groups? How can they connect with you? Yeah.

[01:14:46] Jess: So my website is, um, belovedcoaching.net. I'm most actively on social media on Instagram, @belovedcoaching.

Facebook and Blue Sky exist, but I don't really use them.

[01:15:00] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:15:01] Jess: And kind of the regular grief and pleasure spaces that I hold are Mindful Erotic Grief, which is for 18 and older. Mm-hmm. Um, but all grief is welcome there. Once a month, I do a COVID pandemic solidarity grief space for people who are still taking precautions for COVID, um, 19.

And then, uh, my spouse, my wife Corey, and I just started a queer, kinky, non-monogamous widows grief circle. Cool. So if you are someone who has had a partner, and that is very loosely defined, um- Yeah ... so comets, fuck buddies. If you are a full service provider and/or client, it's a really open, open space. But queer, non-monogamous, kinky, those are the intersections to be able to talk about partner loss and grief- Yeah

without having to, uh, educate people on what-

[01:16:04] Dr. Nicole: Right ...

[01:16:04] Jess: the 24/7 dynamic is or- Yeah ... Shibari or- Right ... metamours. Um- Right ... so those are the, like, regular spaces I hold, and I teach a lot of other things and work with people one-on-one.

[01:16:20] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. Beautiful. Such needed work, so thank you for all of that.

And- Yeah ... I'll have all of that linked in the show notes below, dear listener, so you can just go s- straight into the show notes and find all the links to connect with Jess. And so thank you, Jess, for coming onto the show today.

[01:16:36] Jess: Yeah. Thank you for having me. It's nice revisiting. Such a joy.

[01:16:40] Dr. Nicole: Yes, such a joy.

Yeah. Dear listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Modern Anarchy. Thank you for sharing this episode with your friends, with your lovers, with your community. Truly, it means so much to me, and I am so grateful that you are here. If you are wanting to release jealousy in your non-monogamous dynamics and step into compersion and pleasure-filled connection, you can read my book, The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide, for free on my website.

There you will also find so many other free resources, including worksheets on how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non-monogamous dynamics and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure-filled sex and relationships.

So head on over to modernanarchypodcast.com to find all of those free resources, and I look forward to seeing you next week.