263. When the Sex Party is Home: Power, Play, and Permission with Gili Jala

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Gili join us for a conversation all about the language of desire. Together we talk about the power of curiosity, learning to meet yourself and embracing the gray space. Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted that you are here. So delighted that you are ready to learn and go deeper into the language of pleasure and the embodiment of our desires.

This episode, the title right When the Sex Party is Home, gosh, it doesn't even give enough description to that feeling. Um, if you've ever been in a play party, if you've ever been surrounded by so many bodies and pure ecstasy, the moans, the breath, the laughter, the movement, and had that moment where you thought, wow, why is the world.

Not here. Okay, well maybe we know why the world's not here, but damn, why is the world not here? Like the pain of that, that moment where you feel like this is such a beautiful, natural, sacred, intimate thing, that there are so many invisible walls and borders and boundaries around accessing for our pleasure.

It's just, hmm. It's why I make the show. It's why I'm here. I know that's why you're here and that's also why Gilead is here, right? We're talking about what it means to really step into the body, step into your intuition, and really get curious about the pieces, the experiences that are happening in play spaces.

Yes. Alright, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and free resources@modernanarchypodcast.com. That's where you'll also find more information about my up. Coming psychedelic group therapy experience, we are two weeks away from our first prep session on May 26th.

You have to get in before May 26th. It is a closed group and we will have a one day medicine experience with ketamine on June 13th, and it is all therapy, all of the H-S-A-F-S-A, all those pieces can be used for this, which I think is important to share. So, dear listener, if you wanna join me, if you wanna join me and my collaborative Maggie, and as.

Small group of queer individuals who are really ready to step into their embodiment, into their power, into their healing in community. Then check out More Below with my queer Joy hyperlink. There you can learn all about my upcoming psychedelic group therapy experience. And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters.

You are supporting the long-term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible to all people. So thank you. And with that dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode.

Dear Listener, there's a space already waiting for you where you are invited to let go of every old script about Sack. And relationships and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure. Empowerment and deep alignment. I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real transformation possible. And I'll be right there with you guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure and visit modern anarchy podcast.com/pleasure Practice. To apply,

and the first question that I ask every guest on the show is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:04:51] Gili: Mm-hmm. To answer your question, I would probably avoid at all costs, introducing myself. I think I'll, I think I would like, if I meet somebody in person, I would like start with like body language or some kind of like, like a wink quo or something with my face or like a little wiggle.

Hello? Or just say hello. And, and see what arises. Like I really love this like moment to moment introduction that's nonverbal. And I also really value in the context of the container that we're in right now. The importance of the social ritual of this is who I am, this is how you can, this is what I offer you now to relate to me through and I also resist it because I don't want to offer you a lens to relate to me through.

I would love for you to just relate to me in how you perceive me and how you're with me right now. Moment to moment, just hearing my voice, have not heard my name, have not heard my so-called profession. Where do I position myself, my identity stories, and at the same time valuing that it's really, that it can feel really important and safety creating to.

Actually received that from me. So here's what I think I can offer. I think of myself as your friendly neighborhood pervert, who is also on a spiritual journey, who is deeply curious about the human experience, that of their own, that of their peers, that of the group bodies that we create, and that which is threaded between us as similarities and that which is experienced as a difference, and that which is created through witnessing and expressing ourselves moment to moment.

I feel really, really curious around about topics like permission. And play.

[00:06:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:58] Gili: And presence and power. A lot of P words.

[00:07:01] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly.

[00:07:03] Gili: They love alliterations,

[00:07:05] Dr. Nicole: Uhhuh, pussy,

[00:07:06] Gili: and, and regardless.

[00:07:07] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:08] Gili: I find it fascinating to explore what feels good in the mirror of what feels right or what feels allowed and available and desired.

[00:07:28] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:28] Gili: And how those come to play when we're, when there's more than one body involved.

[00:07:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:35] Gili: And, and towards that, I get more specific. Yeah. Towards that. In the past few years, I have been hosting and curating and facilitating what I like to call spaces of permission.

[00:07:54] Dr. Nicole: Hmm.

[00:07:55] Gili: In particular, uh, an event format that's called Conscious Play Temple.

[00:08:02] Dr. Nicole: Ooh.

[00:08:03] Gili: Uh, which is, okay, I'll just give you the tagline. Yeah. It says Body positive, sex positive, kink and spirituality. Positive space of permission.

[00:08:17] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Juicy

[00:08:19] Gili: And then I often juicy. Yeah. Uh, and then I often follow it up with like, uh, where anything can happen and nothing has to, and you can do whatever the fuck you want.

And it's like a little bit spiritual Yeah. But not deeply. Woo. And it's not gate kept in any particular way except for kind of like presence and being there and being sovereign. Enough choice. And. Kind of, um, an invitation to commit to moment to moment exploration of expression, intimacy, connection, vulnerability, power, weirdness, messiness, grief, sexuality, sensuality, desire, longing, like all the, all the layers in between that lives in, that live in those spaces, and allow them to unfold in a space that has a clear beginning and a clear end.

And everything in between is the ritual.

[00:09:16] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Welcome.

Thank you. Yes, of course, of course. I know all my relationship anarchist listeners are all about deconstructing labels and getting curious about them, so I'm sure you're already resonating with so many folks and it's such a joy to think about the ways. Hi Fat Kat. It's her podcast too. She's the co-host.

Really. It's been here since day one. Um, uh, I was gonna say the ways in which your voice. And the vibration of your voice and your breath introduces yourself before, you know, we even make sense of the words really, right? When someone comes in and they're really, hi, hi, hi. My name's this, all of that. Like, you can feel that in their body before they, we even process the actual language of it.

So I was thinking about that as you were speaking and kind of deconstructing it. You know, so much of your breath and the sound and the vibration of your voice already announces who you are and where you're at when you come in, regardless of the words, right? Which I always find really powerful. And then to think about how that is actively being translated through my body right now, let alone all the listeners who are tuning in and it's vibrating through their body, right?

Like, ugh, that stuff gets me excited. Ugh. So I'm excited to get really into all of that with you today. And. I love to hold space at the beginning of these episodes to really unpack each of the guests personal journey. Before we get into all of the play, the pleasure, the presence that you're helping other people tap into, how did you tap into all of this liberation?

[00:11:01] Gili: How did I get here? I guess I know. Yeah.

[00:11:05] Dr. Nicole: Big question. How much time do we have?

[00:11:09] Gili: The, the way I would frame this is. Started a little bit from childhood, but not go too deeply there.

[00:11:18] Dr. Nicole: I'm a therapist. We can go there. We can go.

[00:11:22] Gili: I mean, there's,

[00:11:23] Dr. Nicole: there's so much we can go into, but Uhhuh,

[00:11:26] Gili: I, so, okay. I remember starting a journal at age 10.

[00:11:32] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:33] Gili: And I did introduce myself to that journal that was pre, um, thinking different things about introductions and so on. And I opened the first page and the first page said, maybe, dear diary, maybe it said, hello, my name is Gilly and I love sex.

[00:11:49] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yes, yes. I love it.

[00:11:55] Gili: And this is like, this is H 10. So H 10.

My concept of the word sex was I believe. Something that is not talked about. Something that is forbidden, but exciting. Something that has to do with body, something that has to do with my body, but also other people's bodies may maybe connected to genitals because those are the most hidden parts, but not like a clear articulation of any framework of doing something with, but just kind of like a vague, maybe it has something to do with that.

And I think for me, sex at H 10 was, I think it was something like arousal. It was something like the excitement that I feel around my own body, or maybe when I'm close to another body or maybe having a crush on a kid at school and mm-hmm. Kinda having like a vague Mm. There's something that can happen there.

And I didn't have scenarios, I didn't have scripts, I didn't have a construct for what pleasure is. I don't know. I don't know if I had a word for pleasure. Maybe I had a word for fun.

[00:13:14] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:13:15] Gili: Maybe I had a word for play, but I don't think I had a word for pleasure. I don't. And, and sex was just like represented to me.

All that is like forbidden and exciting and has to do with body and other, and me and other kids sort of thing. And that's a starting point. And I, and I think in this world of this kid who grew up in a relatively suppressive, I don't know if oppressive, but definitely suppressive environment around.

Around all of these topics. I think I didn't have a word for genitals until maybe that year. Maybe even later. A little bit like there was kind of. There was, I think there was a term of like between my legs or I know that I had ass very early on.

[00:14:05] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:14:05] Gili: And like ASS was around as a kid, but nothing got added to, to that collection for, for much later.

So my most exciting kind of thing in those ages, kind of like 10 to early teenage hood was the idea, maybe no, even before 10, um, was the idea of being naked, being with other kids. Mm-hmm. And like kind of touching ourselves mm-hmm. Or something like that. And I repeatedly got in trouble for trying to arrange these kinda explorations.

Yeah. Um, and I think I sort of, when I, when I think about my journey, I, I do sort of like fast forward through like, um, a rather slutty teenage hood and, um, kind of abundant exploration of connection and rebellious expression of patch and sex and play and bodies and different genders and different identities and multiple people and kind of all of that into a rather busy with work and career and concepts of what to do in society.

Twenties. Yeah. And then a kind of, and then a circle back into. Early thirties in a time of transition, in a time of change, in a time of uncertainty in my life, in a time of kind of lack of clarity and relationship and purpose and what's next, sort of, uh, questions asking my, like, not asking myself, but suddenly remembering the 10-year-old who opened the journal and wrote, this is me and, and what you need to know about me is that I like sex.

[00:15:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:15:54] Gili: And being fortunate enough to just be in a situation in life where I could, where I gave myself permission to explore that for the first time. And then I Googled a lot.

[00:16:06] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, of course. Yeah.

[00:16:07] Gili: I was, I was Googling a lot around, I don't even know what I was looking for. I was, I was in Thailand at the time and I got this idea in my head that there was like.

There's mu there must be a lot of sex tourism in Thailand, isn't there? This, this kind of like mainstream concepts of, of sexuality that, that, that came through and I think it started like typing around that. Mm-hmm. And I found the concept of tan massage or maybe it was yoni massage. Sure. And that was like an entry point

[00:16:40] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:16:40] Gili: That I got. And then I, I went and received a session and that was mind blowing. Right. Expansive kind of sense of, oh my God, this exists.

[00:16:50] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:16:50] Gili: Same. This exists in the world that I'm in. How, how did I not know about this for, you know, and then getting curious and then immediately getting curious about maybe training and like, I, I want this to be my work.

Like, I wanna do this for a living. I, and, uh, getting into that and getting into some, yeah. Also somatic and consent and embodiment, um, trainings and kind of, um, getting into a little bit of overlap also with the spiritual and energetic constructs. Some from Tantra, some from uh, Chinese medicine, but kind of getting a little bit more exposure into that world and to attending my first.

I don't think it was called Temple. I think it was called like a conscious play space or maybe just had a name that didn't describe the thing. Like it had, you know,

[00:17:44] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[00:17:45] Gili: I dunno. Like a like hush hush event or Yeah. Huge play or something like that. And I, um, and I went into the space and I didn't know, I had no idea what to expect.

I had so many different images in my head around what might that be? Like, all I had in my mind was like, like dungeons. Mm-hmm. You know, and like BDA semi sort of scenes and scenarios and like, no idea, like what kind of space is it gonna be? How many people are gonna be there,

[00:18:15] Dr. Nicole: right?

[00:18:15] Gili: Like, all these questions that I, like, I ask myself so often these days when I think about events and I didn't because it was like, I need to do this.

Like I need, I need to get in. I need to get myself in there. And I have very few memories from that night because I think I was very nervous and probably quite like nervous system activated throughout the whole thing. But I remember there was a moment that I was sitting in this big room and the floor was covered in mattresses and there were, I was all very beautiful and minimalistic.

[00:18:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:18:48] Gili: And there were like 30, 40 more people around and a lot were like doing things and some weren't doing anything. And I was kind of feeling a little bit even overwhelmed from capturing what is going on in, in the room this whole time. But within that, a deep embodied felt sense of home.

[00:19:12] Dr. Nicole: Mm

[00:19:12] Gili: of. Holy fucking shit.

[00:19:15] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:19:16] Gili: I'm home. This is where I belong on this mattress on the floor.

[00:19:21] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:19:21] Gili: Surrounded by bodies seeking pleasure, connection, intimacy, vulnerability, play confusion, kink, excitement, romance, everything.

[00:19:35] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:36] Gili: I belong in this world that is a pocket universe within this other world that we're in. Yeah. And it's just as fucking real.

And it's. So much. Even I would say if, if aliveness can be measured or put on a spectrum in a way so much more alive or feels like it infuses a different kind of aliveness in me. Yeah, I, I, I was hooked from day one and then I, yeah, I went out of that event and looked for something similar and then I looked for another thing similar, and a few months later I.

Was sitting, was sitting with one of my friends who was kind of like very curious and tracking my journey, but not attending themselves. Mm. Really wanting to ask all the things and what actually happens and what did you wear and who was, of course, who else was there? I know those people did. Other people what other people I'm gonna go, but

[00:20:33] Dr. Nicole: what did you do?

[00:20:35] Gili: Yes. I wanna know everything.

[00:20:37] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:38] Gili: So I was sitting with my, I wanna know everything friend. One of my wanna know everything friend. Yeah. Very dear creature to me. And, and I noticed myself describing, so I have a little bit of background. This is insert insert background information here.

[00:20:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:20:53] Gili: Uh, I have some background in event management and project management.

Okay. And, and doing these like, kind of like the technicalities of, of navigating. Time and people and resources mm-hmm. And kind of a choreography of a thing that happens in a group thing.

[00:21:08] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:21:09] Gili: But very much from corporate world and that kind of context. And I caught myself sitting with this friend and describing to them like, well, the part that's the opening was like, I really liked that.

And then there was another part after that for the warmups that I, I liked, but like, I kind of liked the one last week a little bit more. And then I was kind of like describing the different steps and stages of what I perceived like this formula of an event.

[00:21:36] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:21:37] Gili: And, and through that conversation I recognized that I've perceived of a formula, or I've, I've kind of conceptualized a, a structure that is now to me having articulated it feels replicable.

[00:21:51] Dr. Nicole: Hmm.

[00:21:52] Gili: Um, and yeah, I guess, uh, project manager ly kick in.

[00:21:58] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:00] Gili: I was like, oh my God, I feel like I can actually do this. I feel like I have the ingredients.

[00:22:05] Dr. Nicole: You do.

[00:22:06] Gili: Mm-hmm. And, um, yeah, and Conscious Temple was born in Ang Mai in 20, I think it was 2019.

[00:22:16] Dr. Nicole: Ah, that's so

[00:22:17] Gili: cool. And we were a group of friends lugging mattresses around Right, right.

The holes into like a secretly rented Airbnb.

[00:22:32] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:22:32] Gili: Because there's no venues, not for or not that we could find. And yeah, like creating like mysterious, uh, suggestive posters to hang around the hippie cafes. And of

[00:22:45] Dr. Nicole: course,

[00:22:46] Gili: just like, you know. Like meeting moment to moment, these questions of like, okay, okay, okay, great.

We, we have a formula. Or like, I feel like I have like a, like a template, but like

[00:22:57] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:22:58] Gili: But what's in it? Mm. And who's gonna facilitate and who's gonna do what and what do we feed them and where do they come from? And, you know, and like engaging with the very sort of pragmatic and material, but deeply creation questions of Yeah.

How do we do this? Yeah. Um, yeah.

[00:23:19] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I mean, each play space is so different depending on the culture and the people and what you're creating. And so, yeah, it is a formula and it has to be aligned with you and your values and then it attracts those people. Right. I, that moment when you were. Feeling like this is your home.

This is your home. It was reminding me of an experience I had had where, um, there is a group in Chicago that has had very like Berlin style, like techno rave where it's on the first floor dance and the bottom floor is all basements with mattresses. And I, I was down there and everyone around me, I was in this like pit and everyone around me was fucking, and you could hear all the like rave music going and I just took this really deep breath and I felt such peace and I was like, yep, I feel tremendous peace in the sex pit.

All the sounds, you know, it's like that same feeling of home where you're like, yeah, there's so much liberation of pleasure and lack of shame. When you're in that space, people are embodied, people are feeling themselves, they're present. We like to think, right? And so all of that, like, yeah, this is the place that I wanna be in.

That's the place you wanna be in, right? Mm-hmm. And also creating pathways for people to access that, because yeah, your 10-year-old self, you know, felt just the longings of creating community and something that was, you know, much more linked to our history as human beings before. A lot of colonization, right?

And so, like, we're tapping back into some history of our, our community roots when we do these things. And it's, it's, so some, some groups, you know, have like that, uh, some groups have the. No one plays until we have the start and we do a consent talk. Right. And then, and then we open up the space. Other places are completely open the whole time.

Right. I'm curious, like what sort of formula have you found for your play events that really elicits the most openness and community connection?

[00:25:15] Gili: Hmm. What a good question. Yeah. I don't know if it's a, I don't know. I don't know if it's a formula per se. Mm-hmm. But my go-to is maximum permission.

[00:25:28] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:25:28] Gili: And finding as multitude as possible of phrasings and framings and invitations and encouragement and celebrations of, my favorite phrase is, do whatever the fuck you want.

[00:25:44] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:45] Gili: I try to say it as early as I can and to an event, and I try to repeat it throughout an event. I aim to contextualize. Every exercise, everything that's guided versus unguided into continuous reminders of this is a space for you to do whatever the fuck you want. And it has limitations, you know, like, Hey, let's not burn the house down.

Please. You know, I don't have insurance. Let's take care of ourselves and each other. Let's keep breathing. You know, like I repeat this kind of like, let's just keep breathing, drink water, don't burn the place down, but really do whatever the fuck you want and give like multiple examples because I find that.

Hearing you have permission is not enough. Often just like the word can be even limiting because when I believe when some of us encounter the idea of permission, we immediately encounter its polarity and its restriction and it can just, the word permission can just as much create contraction as it does expansion because in one moment one can be really immersed and engrossed in, oh my God, there's so many things I don't even know where to start.

[00:26:59] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:27:00] Gili: You know, so, so giving these like. This is the structure. Within the structure. You can do whatever the fuck you want. You can participate. You can be in the room and not participate. You can leave the room and come back, back in the room and participate or not. You can, uh, take a nap in the corner. You can participate in every single thing.

You can leave the building and come back here at the limitations to what happens if you leave the, leave the building. Here are some suggestions. You know, you can be in the room and not do anything. You can be in the room and do something different from what's being invited. Here's the limitation to that.

If you're doing something that's different from what's being invited, please inform the person that you're doing it with. You know, and like really create as much as possible pathways and continuously repeat this. Like, Hey, you know, like I am here with the program. I am also here moving moment to moment with you, with trust and surrender to that.

Whatever wants to emerge will emerge and we can handle it. Mm-hmm. And we'll just see. Because this is life unfolding in front of us. That like the, to me, the, like the magic of these spaces because they have this beginning and an end and, and, and, and in that sense, this sort of form a ritual.

[00:28:14] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:15] Gili: Um, there, it gives an opportunity for life force to unfold in spontaneous, chaotic, unpredictable, ever evolving like emergent manner that just wants to express itself and be witnessed.

Mm-hmm. And we're there for it. We're per, we're supplying, we're supplying our bodies and our consciousness and our right, also our sovereignties and our choice and our decisions and, and our activities or lack thereof. For this thing that wants to be created through us, to form through us. And this is not to take away from sovereignty and from choice because that is part of the ritual, the magic of every individual lives.

Also in their choices. It's not necessarily, I don't know, I don't know if I wanna get into like a talk about predetermined Sure. Uh, pathways and all of that. We could, but I dunno, it's such a highlight for me. But, but kind of just like trusting that something wants to unfold. Bringing yourself to a state of being safe enough, curious enough, surrendered enough to just meet yourself.

[00:29:30] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:30] Gili: Meet yourself. Take a breath with yourself. Feel your own body. Anything can happen right now, including absolutely nothing.

[00:29:41] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:29:42] Gili: And if you could do anything, what would you do with this moment here and now? I dunno if I answered your question.

[00:29:52] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, I mean it does, it does. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think so many things are coming to mind for me.

First, I wanna say how important it is to have that muscle of flexing. Um, if. You could do anything, what would you want? So many of us coming from restricted cultures around dreaming in general, but especially around sexuality and fantasies and dreams, it's been shut off. Whether it's because you've been told that you're only allowed to do it about this gender only in this act only with this many people, right?

There's so many cultural restrictions on our fantasies, and what we know from neuroscience is the pathways we don't use don't fire as quickly. And so if you're trying to think like, wow, I have this abundant space now where I could do anything, that part of our brain is not a muscle that's being flexed, right?

And so you really actually have to start lifting it and, and we know from other sorts of muscles when you first lift it, it's hard. It's hard. And then one day you're lifting a lot of it, right? Because that's how neuroplasticity works. So I just think about people's psychological journeys in that space.

Given the society that we come from, it truly is a muscle to start flexing in terms of, wow, anything is possible. And. Of course within consent and you're, you're saying how, you know, it's great to give people permission, but also they need examples. And I think that that is so essential too. And it's what I really hope this podcast space can be right, is all day long, I could be telling you people around me, the listeners like, you have permission.

You have permission. Go live your liberation. Go, go, go. But that's not how it works. We're so social beings, we need examples of what is possible. And so when you come on this space and say, this is what I do with my life, this is where I feel home, these are the spaces I create and I do the same thing, right?

It really sparks visions for people of what is possible, right? Again. And now we're starting to flex that muscle and we start to actually really go after those things. 'cause we know that there's someone else in the world who's doing that, right? And I, when I think about the various play, like spaces that I've gone into and experiences, um.

It's definitely certain dungeons have different rules and things. One, I know one place, uh, party I had gone to, it was an Airbnb rented house and they did specifically name in their consent dialogue that they asked that no one engaged in, um, consensual non-consent. 'cause it could be triggering for other folks to come into a scene and see that and be very confused and like, I can totally get that.

Um, other spaces haven't had such clear delineations, but that's the only one I've really heard. Um, other than of course, like the basic consent talks and all that sort of stuff, but I could see how that restriction might be a lot for people. And so then it, it's also also a question of size. Like how big is this party?

Right? You know, like, um, can you even ask that of that many people? Or is it small enough that you could have a consent conversation with everybody there? And I'm helping the listeners like see different visions of how to create this in your own life if you can't go to one of your events or, um, any of the events that I'm connected to in Chicago.

Right. Like. If you have a small enough group, you could all discuss that. You're gonna have a non-consensual a, a consensual non-consent scene, right? But the bigger it gets, the more you could trigger people and community and all of that's interesting to think about.

[00:33:09] Gili: Hmm, the parallels, but also the differences between practicing agreements, practicing verbal communication to articulate desires and boundaries, limitations, safe words, body needs, language needs, agreeing on a starting point.

What are we using? Where are we? You know, there's a lot we can do with words and with talk. And I feel like that is fundamental when the average person, I would say, 'cause I don't wanna just, you know, generalize every single person, but like the average adult without much experience in conscious sexuality or or consent talks, enter a space like this.

Um, and it feels really important to practice these, I would even say rather rigidly just to get that initial training going. Yeah. If I use your metaphor with like, with like the gym and training, I think it's really important. Um, to, in the beginning to work with a trainer or to really know how to use a certain device.

Because if you start using or a, a device or doing an exercise and you form sort of a quote unquote bad habits because you don't know any better, that's the thing that your body learns. And that's a thing that can like later down and maybe it feels good because you don't know any better, and then down the line that can cause injury and hurt and, and be harder to break that habit because you've, because you've gotten into it.

So I really, really value these forms, um, that we now have in our social fabrics that are structures of consent and consent conversations and, and agreement forms. At the same time, and this is, there's like such a depth of nuance here and it's a, it's a very kind of interesting area that I, that I really like to visit and walk with and play with and also feels risky and dangerous and vulnerable.

I have this like more of a spiritual notion based on that. That's predominantly based on kind of non-dual vedic structures and beliefs around everything is perfect moment to moment. Whatever experience is happening, that's consciousness expressing itself. Every single body thought form, emotion activity is unified consciousness expressing itself in, in form or in thought or in emotion or in activity and forms like consent and boundaries and ideas about that.

And words are also forms of consciousness expressing itself, just doing its thing. I feel very curious about the space that's created when you, when we also acknowledge the limitations of our minds and the limitations of our learned structures and projected structures, and invite ourselves to, to go moment to moment with experience.

[00:36:20] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:36:21] Gili: As it unfolds. Not to take away from the importance of structure and consent and nervous system and taking care of ourselves and seeing what happens. And I feel like it's missing a piece, what I wanna say. Mm-hmm. I feel like, I guess, I guess what, once, what I, what I feel to say is that I find enormous, precious, delicious magic in the space that gets created when we feel.

Safe enough and curious enough and surrendered enough to the moment and structures like consent and boundaries and agreements and understandings really serve to create that space. And then you create that framework. And then I believe it takes another step to, to walk in there and also accept the unknown.

[00:37:13] Dr. Nicole: Oh

[00:37:13] Gili: yeah. The unpredictable, the surprise, the emergent, the shift of desire, the, the response to a partner, the, the notion of like, I know I, I said I want this, but maybe I, I don't, but I kind of want to experience now this thing that I'm not clear what I want or if I want, or I didn't have words. Yeah. For this thing that I thought that I wanted.

And now it's direct experience and I just wanna be with this right, and walk this line of back and forth. And I also have my human like everyday toolkit of words and communication. And I'm also super fucking aroused. And maybe I'm not finding my words and maybe I'm just going with it and I am in my paradigms and pat and social patterns of like pleasing or retracting or pursuing or withdrawing.

And all of that is perfectly perfect because that's, that's me just performing, like surrendering my system to consciousness, wanting to express itself even if it then gets complicated or blissful or weird or. Everything in between. Does that make sense?

[00:38:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I mean, that's why I like doing kink integration work, right?

I do psychedelic assisted work and integration work with psychedelics, and I also do kink integration works for people who are having massive scenes that yeah, you, you can prepare for that and integrate it afterwards. Just like a psychedelic journey on medicine, right? There's a lot going on in there and you can integrate it for weeks, months, depending on how, what you, what you did in that.

You might come out the other side being like, wow, I'm a whore who took that many dicks? Like, that's a lot to integrate and go back to work on Monday. Like, yeah, there's a lot going on in that process. And, um, it was reminding me of my episode with, um, Dr. Oggi who wrote Sexuality Beyond Consent. Are you familiar with that text?

[00:39:09] Gili: I am familiar with that episode.

[00:39:11] Dr. Nicole: Okay. Okay. I was just say, because a lot of what you're saying was reminding me of what she was saying of like exploring that. To the edge. And then what happens to the concept of, of self, the shattering. Yeah. When you go through that. Right. And there's, uh, you know, my therapist part was like, how do we integrate it moving forward?

And she was like, I'm really fascinated on the lack of integration and the shattering. Right. And I hear some of you talking about those similar, like, like what does it mean to actually step into the unknown of the unfolding, right? Like we of course need safety, uh, to feel pleasure, right? If we don't feel safe, our bodies are gonna be scanning, our thoughts are gonna be running, and we can't actually feel, so there's a reality that the, the safer you feel, the more pleasure and embodiment you can sense into.

And also in that exploration of that, there's definitely a space where you come up to these edges of, of pleasure, pain. And it doesn't have to even be a dichotomy there, but whatever you're pushing into. There's an unknown on the other side of what you'll encounter with your psyche, what sort of person you will be after that.

And that's the exploration, right? So much. And again, similarities to psychedelic medicines, right? Mm. Like where, who will I be on the other side of this? Right? And so, and then even when we start to think about the endorphins, the neurochemicals that happen in those scenes, and subspace topping all, I mean, the parallels start to become just like so clear to me how both of these containers, whether it's actual psychedelic medicines or doing it through, um, endogenous.

Chemicals through our kink and play explorations. Those are both containers where there's immense psychological expansion and exploration that I feel like we're only still just like cracking into, forming the language for, and, and thank, thank you to all of the previous communities and, uh, all of the, the generations of elders who have been in this space that have helped us even get language for it now.

But I we're still always like scratching for more in a society that is so repressed around sex, like you're saying, a lot of people don't have any language formation. I remember myself, even I, that my first kinky play partner asked me a very simple question, how do you like to be touched? And I froze as an adult and had zero words for that.

Right? And so when we think about that to like ultimate dream fantasy placing, there's a huge language formation where you have to really learn like. And often through mess, right? Like, you have that experience, you, that didn't feel good. Okay, I need to learn how to name, don't want that part. You know, like that's a lot of the journey.

It's kind of like learning how to ride a bike. You don't just get on the bike and go, you fall, you scrape your knee, you know? And hopefully we wear helmets, we have good knee pads, we've got good tops, bottoms, you know, people who are willing to communicate with us and hold us in community. But like, you're gonna scrape your knee a few times before you realize like, that's how I hold the bike, you know?

And then you start BM Xing and you know, there's a whole other metaphor. Now we're like really getting some scrapes, but that's part of the fun, you know, now we're here, you know?

[00:42:17] Gili: Yeah. I, I, I, two things come to mind. The. The sort of complicated, extensive, I need to find language to articulate these. Um, yeah.

Really nuanced likes and wishes and boundaries. And how do I do that without, you know, without practicing? Or how do I practice that rather, and it brings to mind, it brings to mind, uh, an exercise that I really love to offer. I don't do it every time, but when I feel inspired, there's something that I like to call desire research.

Mm-hmm. And I invite. Teams of three or triads to sit together where one person becomes the sort of subject of research and the other two are the scientists.

[00:43:04] Dr. Nicole: Mm. So,

[00:43:06] Gili: yeah, exactly. And I get this like, mm, we get to be scientists. I'm like, yeah, but it's, it's just verbal. It's a verbal thing.

[00:43:13] Dr. Nicole: Uhhuh

[00:43:13] Gili: and the person who's the subject is invited to express any wish, big or small, like a starting point of something that they might want to have experienced.

And all of this is framed and none of this is gonna happen. We're just talking about it. So there's no, so it's kind of like a low threshold to express yourself and think about what you want, because when the idea of, and then you have to do it, then you get to thinking, but do I wanna do it with these two people and what are gonna be their roles?

And it complicate, like it contracts the field, so there's kind of the spaciousness of we're just talking about it and we have loads of time.

[00:43:45] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:43:45] Gili: You know, several minutes.

[00:43:47] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:43:47] Gili: And I, and then the, and then the researchers are invited to ask every possible question. It's framed as your job is to, your job is to research, but you're also supporting this person and actually understanding what they want and ask anything.

You can start from, you know, like the sort of, um, where is this happening? What kind of environment is this? How long is it gonna to take? Who's actually participating? What are you wearing? Is there a window? Is there a view? Is your mother in the room? Is there, you know, like, and I, and I kind of like tackle them with like, or like invite them to, to try out like really weird and edgy questions that the person who's kind of like being the subject mm-hmm.

Uh, might not think of when Yeah. Uh, when they imagine their desire. And I really love the things that transpire from these conversations because like, because the, the sort of the people who play the subject get the opportunity to. To be asked. Mm. And to be witnessed. I think there's so much power in being listened to.

Yeah. And there's this like framework of, no matter what I say, it's gonna, maybe it's gonna be met with judgment. I can't guarantee that they're not gonna judge or they're not gonna have their thoughts about it. Right. But the frame that we are in is, I'm not trying to impress anyone. I am not trying to perform any role.

I am the subject. I am the focus of this, and it's my job to explore and tell the truth. Just for myself, I'm the also the main beneficiary from this. This is, for me, this is a tension that I'm receiving right now for me to figure out my desire.

[00:45:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:45:24] Gili: And oh my God, such amazing things go through these conversations.

You know, like I walk around the room and, and kind I, and I catch like little snippets of descriptions or even the, all my, the questions that people ask are fantastic when also they get the permission and freedom to come up with, you know, because like, I think often people would put themselves into, well, I, I, I know it's not about me or about us doing this together, and it's about you, but this is what we do.

We put ourselves through our imagination in that situation, either as the participant, like either as the like subject or a participant or an onlooker.

[00:46:01] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:01] Gili: And then they ask what would interest them in that situation, and they get to learn about themselves. Kind of like what kind of questions they might ask.

When they negotiate a cmex, they get to, they get to also encounter what their questions are as a reflection of what they're interested in and what they might ask. Because I find that, or I notice also about myself that very often when there is like a. A dedicated encounter in a play space or in a date or in an intimate situation where even though it hasn't been discussed exactly what we're gonna do together, there is a framework, you know, there is kind of like, we're probably moving towards intimacy or we might be moving towards some kind of contact or touch, uh, or some sort of pleasure exchange.

Like, you know, there's a framework and then stepping into that framework, it feels like, I don't know what to say. I don't necessarily know what I want. I don't have like a list of things that I wanna try and, and then it ends up being. Something that might be not as fulfilling as articulating a very specific thing.

So the activity itself will end up being, well, why don't we just cuddle and, and kind of see where it evolves, or you know, like, why don't we like start by being naked and like, here are like my scars and like, here's things that hurt and here's the thing that I don't want. Yeah. But I find very often that it leads into kind of, um, simple.

Like if it goes in the vanilla direction, then it goes into kind of like a cute gentle make and then like rolling around a little bit and then maybe some Nike nakedness and touching. Mm-hmm. And, and then like some sort of genital orientation. Uh, and it, and I feel like I have the language of playing with.

Not going into like an escalator story and

[00:48:01] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:48:01] Gili: Taking breaks and changing things, but, but there's, I don't, like, I don't often have the vocabulary of, here is something that I want, and I find this kind of exercise very helpful. Just inviting an audience of, I like to, I mean, I like to work with triads because it gives like more interest and intriguing.

Yeah. And, uh, and spiciness, I guess Uhhuh, but it's also obviously also works one-on-one to just like have an audience to express, to answer questions, to, to be as surprising details and really meet yourself and what happens. Not just like, not, not just the information that wants to come through, but what happens in your body when someone asks something, you know, way out there and you're, and you're encountering like really that contemplation of what that does to you.

I sometimes feel like we lack language in this level of specific. In this level of specificity.

[00:48:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm mm-hmm.

[00:48:54] Gili: To describe explicit, specific nuance desires and boundaries and wishes. And also I feel like we lack the language to or lack the ease of using everyday language to describe the most. Simple, raw, real, like this is what I want right now.

You know, like saying something like, you know, I don't know what I wanna do with my body right now. I don't know what I want you to do with yours. I know that I deeply long for attention, for a sense of closeness, for feeling like I'm being seen and I'm being met and I'm being cared for, and someone is authentically interested in my pleasure, while also feels empowered to express theirs.

And honestly, I would love to just hold hands right now and know that you're gonna be there and that you're not gonna wanna escalate in two minutes because we're on a journey somewhere. I just want presence and closeness and intimacy. And I feel like that level, that that brings a similar level of vulnerability.

As much as the very complicated multi participant fantasy. Sure,

[00:50:16] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[00:50:16] Gili: Like toys and tools and storyline and you know, power dynamics and kinks and all of the, like, everything you can add on it. The most simple, it's just as difficult as like the very complicated. Does that make sense?

[00:50:31] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely.

'cause there's a lot of vulnerability in naming all of that. And so depending on your comfort level with naming any of those desires or feelings, it might be even scarier, especially if you have a lot of experience with bigger scenes. And also if you, again, thinking about the. The attunement to the body and the experience that we have on a neurochemical level, if you're really used to high dose psychedelic experiences, if you're really used to high dose kink sex experiences, it can be extremely vulnerable to really go back down to a smaller dose because we're not used to that.

So it's kind of like, well, what am I doing? What's the purpose? I'm not being blast off into space. It's like, where, well, I'm supposed to just be here with my bo. Like what? Right? And so depending on where someone's at, that actually might be the most vulnerable space. It's often why some of the meditations in, in like sitting are considered the most difficult, right?

Because you're actually just sitting with it all, right? And so I can see how, depending on where someone's experience is at some of these areas might be even more challenging, right? Depending on those experience levels. Um, and so it makes such a different world. I, I've worked with clients in, in sex therapy who, who don't even feel comfortable talking to me as their therapist with the word sex.

Right. It's, it's fascinating the spectrum under these systems, how far we can go into, um, the language formation. And I, I created a worksheet called the Pleasure Wheel, which is very similar to an emotion wheel. Right. And that's what I love to send to my clients who really have, um, who are growing in this area of developing, um, language formation.

And for all the listeners who are tuning in, it's on my website for free and it's like a, um. Essentially like a guided journaling practice where like I invite people to use the wheel to talk about the different domains of the wheel in their most recent sexual encounter in, um, a their hottest fantasy that they can think about.

And then also in a playful san like fantasy, something completely that seems silly. 'cause I think some people forget that the erotic can also be play and giggling and laughing. Um, and so I really want people to get into those different areas of the wheel, right? Whether it's like sensation, um, temperature pressure, uh, power, right?

And like write what they want. 'cause for some people, the idea of sitting with a therapist or sitting in a three person discussion is terrifying, right? And, and I know that that sort of journaling practice helps us form the language. And so much of what you're speaking to is also why. I think that like people who play g and d have some of the iest, right, exactly.

Where it's like their, their brains are already so much in like, what's the world and what are we doing and what do you see? What are you wearing? How do you react? Right? Like, their brain is already so ready. You know, I, granted there is a big shift from like, you know, fantasy to like sexual fantasy.

However, their brain is already in such a play space that like, often so many of us, myself included, who didn't go to theater school, many of my partners did, but I didn't, you know, so like that, that space of play can be very uncomfortable

[00:53:52] Gili: finding your yourself. I guess what I'm hearing is, um, you touching on the, the discomfort of meeting someone who's very, very specific on what they want and maybe that creates.

Um, like a hesitation or uncertainty or like a desire to catch up, I guess, or I guess that really confronts one with themselves. Mm-hmm. What do I do in this moment? How do I respond when the person or persons that I'm with have an, like a specific idea? And what is my relationship with my desires, with my capacity to express myself, with my capacity, to articulate, with my cap, with my, with how I feel about taking up space.

[00:54:38] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:38] Gili: And asking for it and, um, or being guided or being less experienced. It's fascinating, you know, like every time, every new playmate or human that you, that we encounter, this is, this is where my mind is going with your example, is just like such a universe. Oh

[00:54:56] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[00:54:56] Gili: And you never know what you're, what you are going to encounter because.

Every creature that brings their own universe also reflects a mirror to your own and how you can meet them. Like where and where. Do this question of where do you meet and how you meet and what can you do together from where you are in this? Moment.

[00:55:20] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:20] Gili: You know, there's so many, like the, the example that you gave, it just opened up so many kind of like branches of possibilities.

It's just like, what if it was me? You know, would I immediately get super enthusiastic and excited to, you know, just. Just, you know, come along and somebody's very articul, clearly articulated and expressed fantasy. Mm-hmm. Will I contract because I don't feel like I can meet them in the same way. Yeah. And like wanting to meet them in the same way.

Yeah. Will I want space from them to now find my own? Is it gonna get like, so stressful that I'm gonna intellectualize the whole thing and start asking them like, oh, how did you get there? Like, how do you know to like find this information?

[00:55:59] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:56:00] Gili: I don't know. This is, this is where you're,

[00:56:02] Dr. Nicole: I mean, I did do that in d and DI was like, what is the point?

What are we doing here? Like, this is a d and d game. I tried once and I was like, what? What is the purpose? What am I supposed to be saying? Can I do like, I was just over intellectualizing.

[00:56:16] Gili: Yeah. Yeah, because it's, uh, yeah, intellectualizing and then like having a mind that thinks and concepts and structures is as a resource.

It's in our toolkit and like, why not look it out? You know, when we can show it off, you know, of course for someone else and yeah. It's, so, I, I just, I just find it so brilliant to like, and yeah, I keep coming back to this, like the, the magic of encountering

[00:56:40] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah.

[00:56:40] Gili: Someone else's desire and like what that evokes in you and how you Yeah.

Engage with it.

[00:56:48] Dr. Nicole: I think at this point too, I, there's like the magic and the fear, I guess. There's like a, there's been wounding in my experience in terms of like exploring these sorts of dynamics with people and, and noticing, noticing stratifications and experience level with the, exploring some of these things where it feels like I just feel so careful now of who I play with, right.

In terms of. The amount of vetting I want to know that this person feels comfortable with. Like, for example, some of the basics saying they're no right. And some people have a much easier saying they're no sexually, but when it comes to some of the emotional complications around that, so much harder, right?

And so it's like, it feels like the sluttier I get the slower I'm moving because I really wanna make sure that this person is like able to meet me, uh, in a way that feels aligned. Um, and also like so open once I get there with them. But like, it, it's interesting how I'm, I'm getting into such a space where it's like, I really want to vet so hard because as we're noting, there's just infinite complexities going on.

And, and, and like when you play with high dose medicine experiences, there's more capacity for healing and also more capacity for risk. And the same things around sexuality, right? Like when we get into these scenes, it is. There's a lot of healing and transformation and play. Right? We don't even have to put it in a healing frame, but, but there's also a lot of risk for fallout and what it can be on the other side.

And so vetting, like community vetting has been like a huge piece of my journey because I, I like to be wildly optimistic. And then you find out a few times you're like, okay, must go slower. Got it. Got it.

[00:58:37] Gili: Uh, I'm just, uh, yeah. Tuning into how, uh, to, to the lens through which I can relate to this. It feels like I don't, um,

it feels like where I'm at in my journey, in this context is that I'm finding myself more and more protective of my resources

[00:59:03] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:59:03] Gili: To hold space. Yes. Expansive in my demand to be held. Mm-hmm. Or desire to be held. And what I feel like I often struggle with is really that nuance of showing up as someone who would like a high probability of having more experience, more and, and not just like practical experience, but also like emotional experience, felt sense, capacity to kind of tune into.

And, and I by no means am I an expert, but possibly bringing to the table kind of a, a certain level of attunement and a certain level of care for self care for the other and also the, the like noticing. What is happening for the other person? I find it very risky for kind of emotionally risky for me to be the first to notice that something is happening for someone before they notice it themselves.

And then I get into like a whole and integrity questioning and kind of like a power dynamic topic. Sure. Am I really, am I still being met when I'm the first? Like if I'm the one who notices like a change and I'm not, and I'm not talking about like a, like a, you know, like noticing a, a trauma response, but that, that also can happen.

But like, you know, the subtle nuance of like, okay, I notice an energy shift.

[01:00:38] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:00:38] Gili: They don't seem to do I choose to articulate it? How? Like what, what can I allow myself to bring into the space without becoming the holder of it? And, and that's, that's been an unexpected development, you know, in the journey of sort of getting immersed more and more in these spaces, stepping into a space of education and, and leadership and, um, yeah, and, and, and holding these kinds of spaces.

I'm, I'm realizing that I, yeah, I'm, I'm definitely a highlight for me these days is figuring out where does, like, where do I get held or how can I allow myself to get held and, and to be met and be witnessed and be noticed. Mm-hmm. And, and like, I guess I, I hold a certain form of like a very mild, you know, I'm talking like, I'm talking like, about very nuanced experiences, but like a, some subtle flavor of mistrust.

That, um, in how I'm being met and how I'm being perceived and what, and what kind of responsibility am I being maybe projected on as the one with experience, as the one who's a professional, as the one you know, because, you know, yes, all of these topics feel true and real, like the experience, the, you know, the learning, the, the information, and also moment to moment like aroused and, um.

Horny or full of desire or I, I don't know, anticipation, projection, messiness. Like I am, I engage, like my body works the same way. My nervous system works. Maybe not exactly in the same way because nervous system, but my, my nervous system is also a nervous system. My body, like my pleasure body is a pleasure body.

My, my boundaries and boundaries, you know? And yeah, I don't know. That's what, um, I didn't expect to, to get to this topic, but that's a, oh yeah. Build up for me this share. Thank you so much.

[01:02:43] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. 'cause I, ideally, relationships are mutual. And that means that there's reciprocity in them.

And if we take like a large frame to relationships, right? There are relationships like, like say family relationships, for example, with a, a parent and a child, right? There's a mutuality there through that power exchange and what that is, right? And in there's lots of ways that we can create that in different formats.

Uh, when we're playing with folks, you would think that there should be that exchange of mutuality, whether that's you're paying for this as a professional service with a pro dominatrix because. They have the experience and that is the mutuality of that extension through capital. Or maybe it can be paid in another way.

Right? There's money is not the only resource that we can pay. Right. But you do want that reciprocity. And so when, when I'm looking for relationships, I want them to be a dance of a give and take. It's not always that I'm held, it's not always that they're held certain emergencies, certain things happen, right?

But overall, there is this like ebb and flow that creates some level of balance. And that's not me, like ticking a scorecard and being like, well, this many times you came over to my house when I was crying. You know, like, but generally speaking, this felt sense of like reciprocity. And again, there are other ways to get that through money or through, um, exchanging of goods or time or effort or labor or whatever that is.

But like I, I, I definitely want that, right? And because there is so much here, and for me as a rock climber, it would be irresponsible. For me to go outside and climb with somebody who had never had any experience outdoors, that'd be irresponsible. I would need to talk to that person, really get a sense of their experience.

And then if they're less experienced, maybe I need another person. Maybe we don't do this trip at all. Right? And so it's, it's interesting because I think when it comes into the relationship world, like we don't wanna have this hierarchy of like, oh wow, I'm wiser than you and I know more than you. And also there are some areas of the psyche, particularly sexuality.

And even emotional depth of connection under these systems that creates stratifications that I do think we need to be conscious of because the harm is immense. Like when we're rock climbing, we can see like, wow, you could die. Like, you know? And also psychologically, when you're supporting people, there is also so much going on, even just mirror neurons, right?

You and I can see each other right now. And so if I started to experience a lot of pain, it would be on my face and you would start to feel it in your body. And so we are so deeply connected to one another. And so when you are engaging in any sort of relationship, right, like there is that level of connection and potential for harm for both people.

And so like. I, I try to take it that seriously in terms of thinking like, if I engage in this dynamic, I'm opening them and myself up to mutually harm, right? Hopefully healing and pleasure and play, but also this other world. And I think that that nuance of holding all that is what we need to be doing in a sense of like, how do we build community where we don't like say like, oh, sorry, you're not my level, don't wanna talk to you.

But also a level of responsibility that like, I'm not gonna take a new climber up a really hard route that's, that's not safe. Um, and I, and I do think a lot of the kink community has always said like, the more experienced player holds the responsibility of, of doing more of that educational work. So yeah, what does that look like in terms of reciprocity of time and labor and often in, in, uh, emotional labor, which is not respected well under these systems, right?

So there's a lot. There's a lot unpacked here and, and there are a lot of queers and, and women and folks who are really like holding a lot of emotional labor in these spaces. And it's not being respected. Um, definitely not paid for under these systems. Right. And so I think this is a really deep and important topic to explore with no perfect answers, but just, and I think that I love hitting those questions and conversations in this podcast where I can just sit with another person, be like, yeah, the unknowns, lots of gray space, huh.

You know,

[01:06:57] Gili: I love the gray space.

[01:06:58] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly.

[01:07:01] Gili: It's real life. It's such a pleasure to identify it. I mean, speaking of queerness, kind of, it takes me to, um, I, I like to, to speak more when I speak of queerness, I speak more of kind of queer theory and queer philosophy and queer worldview. That actually to me, this is what.

Queer theory does, you know, we, we look at the lines that we think are clear.

[01:07:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:26] Gili: And then we, and then we zoom in and we see the blur, you know, and we're like, why actually, do I have a perception that this line runs over here and this is the limit of a concept? And on the other side of that, it's, it's a non, that concept or it's something else.

And that, that gray area in bet in between that interstitial space between definitions or expand allows the definitions themselves to expand and for us to see reality and kind of like ever kind of like zooming in more and more nuanced ways. You know, I think defining. Concepts and constructs, or being aware that our, our mental and language systems, uh, and cultural coding and what we bring with us do hold some definitions.

Mm-hmm. And then having like an active approach of, and let's look closer and let's look at where, where does it now blur,

[01:08:30] Dr. Nicole: right?

[01:08:30] Gili: Where it becomes just unknown. Where it becomes up to our sovereign current, present moment decision to just make a choice and just to take action without having like a guideline or a rule, you know, of like who holds the responsibility, how does reciprocity flow?

Mm-hmm. How do we create balance and harmony and, and it invites us to kind of attune to present moment desires and values. That are not identity related, but are present moment related in this moment, what does rep reciprocity feels to me? What, what does reciprocity feels like? What am I wanting? What would feel fulfilling?

What values do I bring to this interaction around pleasure, around, around give and receive, around balance? What do I perceive as harmony? What do I perceive even as a reciprocity? Does it have a definition for me? And what would serve, what would serve in this moment for this scene, for now, for this body, for this other body or bodies?

[01:09:42] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:09:43] Gili: Um, if we start from acknowledging the topic and the question, but then dive deeper into, okay, but what's true right now?

[01:09:52] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:09:53] Gili: Does that make sense?

[01:09:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I'm hearing the importance of curiosity. Right, is getting curious about the, the meaning behind these words, getting curious about the lines, as you mentioned with queer theory.

And the important part is that curiosity often comes from a regulated nervous system. When we're not regulated, it's like black and white, there a fucking asshole, blah, blah, blah. There is no gray space. I know the truth. You know? And so it's like, it's like, yeah, that ability to be curious also comes from that grounded nervous system.

Because we're not in the amygdala, we're in our prefrontal cortex. We can kind of hold some nuance and explore different possibilities without it overwhelming the body when we're already activated. Right? And so I, I think about that. It's such a political conversation because these systems run off of us not having enough, um, time.

First off energy and then capacity in terms of community building and, and really like emotional skills to organize on a grand scale. 'cause if we all had that and we were organizing right now, which is really tough to do without time and energy. 'cause you gotta work to be able to do the whole thing, right?

All of that power that we would have if we could organize as a collective to change these systems. It's huge. It's huge, right? And so it's a such a deeply political conversation. Um, you know, as a therapist I have to hold this space of like, you know, my 40 hour work week is spent. All day listening to people and supporting them and forming language.

And so one of my partners really works in native plants. And so all day he is tending to plants and he is helping people with plants. And so there is a quite like real dichotomy in what our time is under these systems, which therefore creates different experience. I fucking love that guy. You know, like he's my, he's with me, you know?

And also like there, there are power, you know, exchanges here in terms of that. And so that's not to say that he doesn't give back in other ways. And that's the beauty of the reciprocity, right? And also like the humility of, of me, but also the, the, the knowledge. I think it would be, I think it'd be irresponsible for me to not acknowledge like the privilege of the education and the positions that we get to sit in.

Um, while also humbly trusting in the wisdom and lived experience of other people. That's like a really nuanced dance to line, uh, a nuanced line to dance. I got that flipped around. Um, yeah, and I, it, I mean, that starts to hit at the like, core of like, uh, capitalism and healing professions and all of that sort of stuff.

There's a lot, there's a lot packed under here and, and I just, I just hope that we continue to find ways where we can honor the, the sovereignty of each person and the lived experience that they have, while also doing it with curiosity, while also doing it in safer ways. Just like we use the metaphor with rock climbing, like, I'm not gonna just take a new person up that climb.

You have to assess out what are your skills, you know, when you're, when you're topping someone, hey, like, what are your nos? What are your hard limits? And if that sub says, I don't have any. I'm not gonna engage in that. We don't engage in that. That's like a, Hey, let's have a conversation and maybe I take a few minutes to say like, you know, I'm sure you do.

Here are some things for me. Like what's, you know, but like I'm not gonna play in that. Like, we have to be able to hold that nuance of like, um, lived experience with also humility and safety complex.

[01:13:28] Gili: I believe that once we gain a new perspective over a topic that was previously unknown to us, but we allow ourselves or just spontaneously encounter or have through lived experience a shift in not necessarily an opinion or an, or a behavior, but literally just experiencing something from a different point of view.

I believe that you can never look back.

[01:14:05] Dr. Nicole: Mm mm-hmm. Yeah.

[01:14:07] Gili: I believe that creates an imprint. And that could be, uh, a moment of relating to your own pleasure. A moment of witnessing, um, someone else, uh, a moment of expressing a desire, a boundary, um, you know, like being afraid or feeling restrictive around attending a certain event or showing up at a certain space and literally just walking in and having like the, like the lived experience of not dying.

[01:14:36] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:14:38] Gili: It's like, oh my god,

[01:14:39] Dr. Nicole: parts of us died. Parts of us died.

[01:14:41] Gili: Yeah. Yeah. Some sort of me is still here.

[01:14:45] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Yes, knew me.

[01:14:48] Gili: Um, and, and, and as far as it relates to like, to pleasure, to language, to meeting yourself, to meeting another, to, to giving ourselves and each other permission to feel, to express, to receive, to limit how much we can receive to offer, and then take away, and then to receive some more, to expand some more.

I think every, every moment like this can create a shift of perspective

[01:15:15] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:15:16] Gili: Around the world. Like from the individual to the global, from the global to the individual. There's like, you know, how, how we perceive our own capacity. For, and you know, like you're, because you're talking about you're, you, you're mentioning I think in a lot of ways systems of oppression.

And when I think about system of oppression, I think about power. When I think about power, oh yeah. I think about consent. So literally coming into spaces that are sure there's sexualized or contextualized in, there's this very, very vulnerable and tender topic and its sexuality and we're gonna be very, very clear and draw very clear lines.

And you use very specific language and practices to articulate consent. But that taps us into the whole world of things we want and things that we don't want. And, and, and I think that's the perspective shift that, you know, that, that, that we're needing, that I, that I really love being a part of cultivating in the world of just encountering that micro moment that you encounter the permission to.

Acknowledge your own desire. Acknowledge your own pleasure, spectrums your patterns, finding the words being heard on that, feeling what it feels in your own body to want just to want and to not want.

[01:16:33] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:16:34] Gili: And, and I think that's something that on, yeah, on a cellular level or like in a, in a very granular, uh, behavioral level, people do might potentially, I don't know if they do, but they might potentially take away from, uh, from conscious play spaces.

And I, I fucking love it. I love witnessing, yeah. Um, offering it, being there, witnessing it, playing with it.

[01:16:58] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:16:59] Gili: Being in this world, I feel so fortunate.

[01:17:01] Dr. Nicole: Oh yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, in honor of that, I'm curious if you would have any words of advice to your younger self to, to the parts of you that have died.

What would you say?

[01:17:16] Gili: You're good. Oh, you're good, babe. You're good.

[01:17:22] Dr. Nicole: Listeners can't see me bending over. It's like, how many times do I need to hear that myself? Damn.

[01:17:28] Gili: Like, you're doing fine. Wherever you're right now is perfect just as you are. And you might struggle to hear it or to receive it, and you might fight me on it, but this is what I got for you and you might roll your eyes at me right now.

Being like, what do you mean it's perfect? I'm not perfect. Well, great. That's what I got for you. And like you can put it in your pocket and like, and, and one day it'll just like, yeah, maybe you'll find it or you'll find it somewhere else and you'll know that I was right, because I'm from the future.

[01:17:58] Dr. Nicole: Right?

Right. Exactly. Exactly, exactly.

[01:18:01] Gili: And, and being from the future, I'm not like, I don't need to be. I don't, it's not about being right. Mm-hmm. You know, I know that you feel right. Well in your own experience. And that's valid too. Mm-hmm. And it's okay that you're rolling your eyes and telling you to fuck off with, with telling you that you're perfect and you're great.

But you know what, bitch, you need to hear it right now. And that's what I'm telling you.

[01:18:26] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah, yeah. Just wait till this episode's released and you have to hear it in the future. Yourself's gonna tell you. That's what I do every week when I edit, I hear myself and I'm like, damn. You know? It's, it's wild.

It is. And I'm, I'm so stubborn. I know if I were to speak to my younger self, I'd be like, you don't get it. You, you don't get where I am. You know, like I'm so stubborn about the isolation. Clearly. It's insane.

[01:18:47] Gili: Uh, so wait, your, your older self is telling your younger self that, that they don't get it, that she doesn't get it?

[01:18:55] Dr. Nicole: I think that right now, if I were to speak to my younger self, I, I, I feel confident, like the first time I went into NRE with Paulie, right? If I were to go back to my younger self and be like, Hey, Nicole, like. Just so you know, it's happening. That thing that the community talks about, that you talk, it's happening.

I know my younger self would be like, no, you don't get it. This is real love. Oh, just, just, you don't even get it. You're not even in my body. You don't even get it. Like, 'cause I'm always like not taking it. So I just know I'm wickedly stubborn. So I don't know how much my younger self listens to the words of advice, you know, uh, continue softening is what is needed.

Um, but I, I do think about like the, um, the very traditional metaphor of the glass half full or the glass half empty. And of course it's not a dichotomy 'cause it's, it's both, right? And so I think as we move through the world with all of these systems of oppression, there's real horrific things going on every single day in the world.

And so I'm not gonna be Pollyanna and be like, just look at the glass. It's half full all the time. It's half full all the time. That's stupid. But if we look at both of those glasses and we hold both of that, that deeper question of what narrative do you wanna focus on? Holding both, right? Not n negating the horrific things, but what narrative do you wanna focus on?

And is the narrative of gratitude, of seeing what's good in your life already, does that actually give you more space to show up for your activism and for your community? 'cause if we're constantly in the narrative of like, I'm not enough, I'm not perfect, I'm in scarcity, I'm in lack, I'm in lack, that nervous system contract, like contraction means that we show up with our community, contracted, we show up for our activism work contracted.

And so I, I'm, I'm not saying to like negate the horrible things that are going on in our world, how can we actually get in more of the gray? And sit with like, wow, these horrible things are happening. And right now I have the capacity to take a deep breath. I have the capacity to buy food right now, which some people don't have.

And so how can I actually hold that frame so I can show up for the people that can't? Right? And so it's like, uh, yeah. So that invitation to say, you are good. I do think that that is political, both for the self and the collective when we hold that with nuance. And so I appreciate that invitation and it's a, it's a good reminder that, that I'll hold on to.

[01:21:09] Gili: Hmm. Thank you.

[01:21:10] Dr. Nicole: Of course, of course.

[01:21:13] Gili: I, I wanna ask you something.

[01:21:15] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, of course.

[01:21:16] Gili: I am curious if a future self. Visits you now the, now you, would you be in that like, oh, you don't know, or do you feel like, do you feel like something has shifted for you on your journey and, and like receiving wisdom and like suspending disbelief and suspending like, I don't know, attachment to ego or story that when something arrives and, and they're like, there is something that you, that I want you to know and it's something challenging, right?

[01:21:50] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:21:51] Gili: It's something that you're not necessarily wanting to receive. What, what, if anything, would be like your, how would you meet that?

[01:22:00] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I appreciate you opening the door for me to rewrite this narrative. I, I do think that there has been a, a death to that stubbornness in some ways where I've, especially with running my own business completely, like completely getting outta grad school and really doing that like.

What the fuck am I doing? You know, like I've, I've reached out to mentors who have given me advice that I've been like, I don't wanna do that, but like, sat with it and like, following their advice. So I do think there is this, this new period where I'm, I'm trusting the wisdom of other people and community with a level of vetting, but like trusting and, and getting more curious about the things that feel tight and where they come from and how can I listen to the wisdom of the elders that are offering to help me.

Like truly like, like one of my mentors, like Dr. Jolie, she met with me. She's like, will you let me help you? And it was funny 'cause right before I had drawn a tarot card and I have this like cat tarot deck and it was like. Do not bite the hand that offers you a treat. And I was like, fuck, fuck. And so I have been like, just like, yeah, like taking a deep breath to like, try and not be so attached to the ego and, and like, listen to the wisdom of other people before me.

And like, what? And like, really trust of course. Like have the self, right. We don't wanna just completely negate the things that feel aligned, but also there are people who have walked these paths who know more than us, um, in their way. And so how do we integrate their wisdom into ours? Right? So that moment of hearing that advice, letting it sit for yourself and if it doesn't, getting curious and then finding that next step that does feel aligned with the wisdom of theirs and the wisdom of your own perspective.

I do think the future is, um, less of therapy, bullshit dynamics where the therapist comes in and is like, I know everything and you know nothing. Um, I think the future is much more in the, um, innate healing wisdom of all of us in our communities.

[01:23:49] Gili: Mm-hmm. Trust that the information is there.

[01:23:52] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:23:52] Gili: You know, it's a little bit woo woo, but like trust that information is already in the field.

It's being brought in in a certain form and in a certain messenger and in a certain way. And to probably evoke as, as little resistance as possible in you. But it still does because this is what change feels like.

[01:24:12] Dr. Nicole: Oh,

[01:24:12] Gili: gotta fucking die a little bit. And that's, and yeah. Um, and just, just trusting that it's there.

[01:24:21] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Already.

[01:24:22] Gili: Yeah.

[01:24:22] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm. Well, this has been such a beautiful conversation. Yeah. I'm gonna take a deep breath with you as we come towards the end of our time. Uh,

that's all the dead parts. Uh, I always check in. Before I have one last closing question, I wanna see if there's anything else that you wanna share with the listeners. Otherwise, I have a closing question for you.

[01:24:51] Gili: Mm. In this moment, what's coming up for me is a certain vulnerability that wants to be brought into the space because part of our conversation today did touch on like a child self and a past self.

And I, I feel like I spent most of the, like last, I dunno, hour or so, uh, speaking with confidence and the security, um, around the things that I feel I know, or spaces that I feel I swim in. And in this moment when you asked this question that was very unexpected and I'm just alive with it, what? The creature that wanted to be heard is the, is an insecure child that wants to say, oh my God, you're still listening.

That is so thank you. Thank you for, for still being here.

[01:25:51] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:25:53] Gili: Yeah. Because it feels at, at the same time as all of this, I don't know, I, I, I get told the word wisdom a lot and experience. Yeah. And, and thoughts and philosophies feel very alive and real, and, and, and valued and, and precious. And I love being able to share that.

I, I so also deeply honor the tenderness and the insecurity and the vulnerability and kind of, yeah. I. I wish to be seen in that as well. Mm-hmm. Like, hey, I'm just like, I'm just your, um, friendly neighborhood pervert on a spiritual journey. Mm-hmm. Just making friends over here and Yeah. Sharing some stories and, uh, yeah.

Thanks for hanging out with me.

[01:26:37] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. The modern anarchy community is committed. There's so many pleasure activists that are like, take this very seriously and know how sacred our pleasure is. Know how essential it is to our collective, not even just the individual, but collective liberation.

And so I am so grateful that you took the time to share all of your wisdom and to be vulnerable. In that, right? I think any person who comes in and proclaims, they're an expert who knows it all should be the biggest red flag of all of us, right? We should be like, okay. You know? But the people who can come in and say like, you know, here's what I know and here's the things I'm still exploring and learning.

Here's the things I really fucked up. Right? Those are the people that I listen to and have much more respect for. So I appreciate you doing that today with me and all of the listeners.

[01:27:28] Gili: Hmm, thank you.

[01:27:30] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Alright, so the one question that I ask everybody on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:27:45] Gili: Oh, can I just say everything? Yeah. Can I just say everything? Yeah. Because you said one thing. Yeah. And I just, everything that thing that whatever thing that you think that might not be included in everything. That everything belongs Ev ev, yeah. Just, yeah. The like, the messy and the weird and the uncomfortable and the, and the painful and the, the, the struggle and the joy and the bliss and where, and that very, very strange fantasy that you, or that, that very, very specific fantasy that you might have a story about.

Its strangeness. Yeah. The, the fantasy is good. The strangeness is good. Your story about it is good. All of it uhhuh, all of it's fucking and completely normal because you're here. So you belong. That's it. You're having this feeling that belongs, you're having the desire that belongs being you fully, utterly, profoundly, deeply belongs in every moment.

Yeah,

[01:28:50] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[01:28:51] Gili: Everything.

[01:28:52] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. I love when people deconstruct the question and expand it so much further, and I feel like as a therapist, there's always, you know, three different questions that are, are really at the heart. A lot of, of, a lot of that work. And it's always, uh, am I normal?

Mm-hmm. Am I a good person? Mm-hmm. And am I loved? Mm-hmm. All of those are interconnected, of course. But I feel like those are some of the three questions that most people are coming into any sort of suffering, like asking that like, is this normal? Will I find community? Am I lovable? Am I a good person?

Right? And so I really appreciate you creating that space to normalize the whole human condition, right? And when we do that, it creates more community and connection, which is what is healing, right? It's the isolation that causes pain and suffering. Uh, and so when we know we're not the only one, that's often that moment where you have that conversation with a friend where you're like, oh, you two, right?

Mm-hmm. Or that moment where you do say the scene that you have a fantasy of, and four people are like, I'm ready. Whereas I'm ready, what, which, which role do you want me to do? Right. And you have that moment of connection. And, and that's really where we move through so much fear and shame and isolation.

And so I'm so grateful for people like you that are bringing that space for folks both in the physical and in the, the audio that is rippling through people's ears today as they tune in. And so thank you for coming onto the show. It's truly been a joy and a pleasure.

[01:30:26] Gili: Mm. Thank you so much. I loved it.

[01:30:27] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, of course. For all the folks who wanna connect with you and learn more about your work, how can they find you?

[01:30:37] Gili: Well, uh, for folks that are in or around or accessible to Berlin, Germany, um, that's where I do, uh, most of my work in person, and I do mostly work in person. That being said, who knows what's gonna be possible, I don't know, um, by the time this airs.

So you can also find me ASM Gili, which is M-X-G-I-L-I. That's my handle on Instagram. That's also my website, M gili.com. And I'm gonna prepare a page m gili.com/modern anarchy with, I don't know, I don't know yet. Um, it's future, future Gilly knows. But you, you might find something reflected reflections on this episode or the topics, or maybe a free resource or yeah, maybe a way to keep in touch with me or share your questions and wisdom, love.

[01:31:31] Dr. Nicole: So amazing. I love that. I love that. And I'll have that linked in the show notes below, dear Listener. So you can just go into the show notes. It'll be hyperlinked so you can dive in. And so thank you again, Gilly, for coming onto the show today.

[01:31:46] Gili: Such a pleasure.

[01:31:47] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Amazing. Dear listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Modern Anarchy.

Thank you for sharing this episode with your friends, with your lovers, with your community. Truly, it means so much to me and I am so grateful that you are here. If you are wanting to release jealousy in your nonmonogamous dynamics and step into a compersion and pleasure filled connection, you can read my book, the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide.

For free on my website. There you'll also find so many other free resources, including worksheets on how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non-monogamous dynamics and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure filled sex and relationships.

So head on over to modern Anarchy podcast.com to find all of those free resources, and I look forward to seeing you next week.