261. The Practice of Relationship Anarchy with Ewan McConchie

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Yuin join us for a conversation all about the practice of relationship anarchy. Together we talk about non-attachment with jealousy. Embracing the obstacle and the journey of connecting with your authentic self. Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday.

My name is Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, author of the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and founder of The Pleasure Practice, where I support individuals in crafting pleasurable sex lives and non-monogamous relationships. Dear listener.

Embracing the obstacle. Did you know that's like one of the first things? Well, not one of the first, but one of the many things we talk about in psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, when you have that edge of that obstacle that comes up to get curious about it, to welcome it in, I remember going through my training, uh, to become a psychotherapist, and one of the first things they would say is that, you know, the clients, the things in your life that challenge you the most, that have that biggest reaction in your body, those are the pieces that have so much insight and wisdom to the unconscious of what is going on in your own psyche, right?

So embrace the obstacle by getting curious about what is coming up for you. Wow, what a life. Lesson to truly be curious about the things that we struggle with, and particularly with jealousy. That's a big one, right? In our non-monogamous communities, and whenever I'm teaching about non-monogamy in my pleasure Liberation 16 week program, I always talk about parts work and thinking about how we can have.

Non monogamous parts. We can have monogamous parts too at the same time, and really allowing ourselves to hold that multiplicity. I really wanna invite you, dear listener, to know that it is okay and absolutely normal as much as that word means something to be able to have completely conflicting thoughts at the same time.

And that is so important to know because anytime you come up to a challenge or the obstacle, it's always, there's always gonna be a part of you that's like, I don't know if I wanna do that. I think I could just stay home, actually. Um, as a rock climber, I know this feeling very, very well outside, right? And the reality is you can also have that other part of you that is saying, Hey, we wanna climb.

Hey, we wanna do non-monogamy. Hey, we wanna do this right? And so it's getting curious about the obstacle, curious about the parts of yourself that are ready to expand the parts that are still scared and holding on, and how can we get curious about what they need? And this episode is gonna be such a rich one for you to really get into that deep, critical level of thinking about your practice of relationship anarchy.

And dear listener, I am so excited that you are here.

Alright, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and free resources at. Modern Anarchy podcast.com linked in the show notes below. And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all my Patreon members, you are supporting the long-term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible to all people.

So thank you. And with that dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode.

Dear Listener, there's a space already waiting for you. Where you are invited to let go of every old script about sex and relationships, and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure, empowerment, and deep alignment. I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real trans. Possible, and I'll be right there with you, guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure and visit modern anarchy podcast.com/pleasure practice to apply. And the first question that I like to ask each guest is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:05:34] Ewan: That is a tricky one. Um, I start, I see myself as just the average everyday guy.

Um, I enjoy writing Haiku, poetry and Zen Cohen. And that is how I explore my inner and outer world.

[00:05:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Mm-hmm. Well, welcome to the show. I'm excited to have you on today's episode.

[00:06:00] Ewan: I'm excited to be here. Thank you.

[00:06:01] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so relationship anarchy, what is it to you? That first big question, what is relationship anarchy?

[00:06:12] Ewan: Oh, that's such a deep question. I know. Um, I'm a lay Buddhist. I follow Mariana and Zen, and I find that relationship anarchy is very closely aligned in that it's all about integrity and it's all about trying to find your original self, your original face below all the conditions. And it's just a fascinating way to experience the world.

[00:06:43] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to hear more about integrity, um, the connection to relationship anarchy with that word. What does that mean to you?

[00:06:54] Ewan: Okay, so for me, the integrity is to be able to be as honest and open with others and myself as I can be. Um, and practicing relationship anarchy allows me to be more open and honest with others.

[00:07:14] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:14] Ewan: Um, and you know, I'm also interested in IFS parts work and I also use, uh, the relationship anarchy model to, um, work with PARS as well. You know, because we're not a collection of people, we're a collection of parts. And now that taking part in this practice. It just allows me to see everybody in their unique way and realize that no one's the same all the time.

You know? Everybody's changing. Life is changing. And I guess too, relationship anarchy helps me to remind myself that impermanence is okay.

[00:08:00] Dr. Nicole: Gosh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a huge part of my research with it. It was the embrace of change, right? Which makes sense when we think about something like consent.

Consent is ongoing, and so if we're bringing that into our relational frameworks where we're asking each other, Hey, this way we've been relating for many years, does that still work for you? Does that still feel aligned? The reality is it's gonna change over time, whether it's big or small, but it's always changing, and so if you're having.

Relationships that are deeply rooted in consent, there's gonna be that embrace of change perce like just throughout your lifetime.

[00:08:41] Ewan: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And also, I, I notice in others that, um, many people fear change.

[00:08:50] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah. Yeah. Me.

[00:08:51] Ewan: But, um,

[00:08:51] Dr. Nicole: I, I'm over in that camp,

[00:08:56] Ewan: but I kind of, um, I just kind of remind myself that it's changed. It's what, what brings me the, the beauty

[00:09:03] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:09:03] Ewan: In the world. You know, like if the world didn't change, what kind of world would that be?

[00:09:08] Dr. Nicole: It's so true.

[00:09:09] Ewan: So. And it just, just helps me to value everything a lot more. Yeah.

[00:09:15] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. And I do find that beauty in it, the more you sit with the impermanence, the more you enjoy that moment.

But it's, it's, uh, it's like trying to grasp water through the hands. Time just keeps moving through. You're like, I just had this great moment, and it's God. Oh no. You know, it's like, wait, could something just stay?

[00:09:32] Ewan: Then he comes, he comes the next one though.

[00:09:35] Dr. Nicole: You know what I mean? That's right. Right. Exactly.

Exactly. Exactly. And so what sort of change have you noticed in your relationship and he practices and relationships, what has come forward in your life?

[00:09:48] Ewan: Oh, look, it's just beautiful. Um, it's added so much death to my life. Yeah. Um, something that's been coming up for me recently I've sort of realized is, um, relationships aren't linear from a monogamy point of view.

It's like, stop, stop. You know? Get together, break up, married, divorced, whatever. There's a start and a stop. But what I've learned is that relationships are just constantly flowing all the time, you know, backwards and forwards. You know, sometimes you spend a little bit of time with somebody, sometimes it's a little bit more, you know?

Mm-hmm. And it changes. And they should, that should be fluid. It needs to be fluid for it to be real.

[00:10:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:36] Ewan: So, yeah, that's sort of one of my recent realizations.

[00:10:41] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. The relationship escalator. And I think it's important that we, it's called an escalator. That's from ab Graham's, uh, book, I think it's called Getting Off the Relationship Escalator.

And the more I think about the word escalator, it makes sense, right? It's not stairs. We're not climbing it. It's, it's, it's automatic. You just get on it and our consciousness goes next, next, next, next, next. Next. And when you're practicing relationship anarchy and we're trying to get off of that escalator into a wide open landscape, it can still be really hard.

Right? 'cause that's so deep in our unconscious. And when you do get deeper with someone, and then if you want to reorient and have a little bit more spaciousness in the dynamic, there's often so much grief and meaning making around that, right? If you step back a little bit, the whole relationship is collapsing the whole thing's on fire.

Oh no. And it's like, nope, we're just orient reorienting this one small thing. But we have such a lack of practice in our society of having that sort of ebb and flow in romantic partnerships now friendships, Hey, we've got lots of practice with that. But romantic partnerships, it's like our psyche doesn't have any framework for this being a stable thing as we reorient.

[00:11:57] Ewan: Yeah. Yeah. And uh, I'm also becoming aware of how different everybody is in my world. You know, I. Enjoy composing haiku. Yeah. And usually like, in a kind of a koan style. And I offer that to people and I learn how they work just through the way they understand their own version of that haiku. And, um, I have a really close friend that I can just drop her a haiku with no explanation, and she just loves it.

[00:12:28] Dr. Nicole: Oh. You know?

[00:12:28] Ewan: Yeah. And, um, then I, you know, recently I kind of, I realized I was projecting that onto somebody else. Oh. So I tried the same thing and you're like, what the hell are you talking about? But that's, that's my, that's my lesson, you know, is that I was just projecting one person onto another. Oh yeah.

And that's, that's the whole, um, the whole shooting match right there is, is is just being present with people and just allowing them to be

[00:13:02] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:13:02] Ewan: And discovering who they are. You know, it's a discovery, it's a journey,

[00:13:07] Dr. Nicole: right? Absolutely. Absolutely. It makes sense, right? Uh, we come from these previous experiences of relationships and then we project those on to other people, especially with drama, right?

If you've had a bad experience, which again makes sense, right? Like when we've had traumatic experiences, we're now trying to keep ourselves safe. If there's any cue of danger or possibility, we're gonna project that even faster because that's how we could keep ourselves safe, right? So we gotta have some compassion for the parts of ourself that do that.

Um, and so we're always naturally doing that and, and when we find out that we've projected in a way that's incorrect, right? To readjust, that can be a lot to sit with. Mm-hmm. And as you said, all of the parts, it's not even just one person, right? There's different parts within our consciousness. Yeah. That can be.

At some points completely antithetical to each other. I've had parts of myself that are like super supportive of my partner's expansion with other peoples and lovers. And then my other part that's like absolutely terrified, fuck this shit, I don't wanna do any of it. And they're all existing at once and we get to sit back.

[00:14:14] Ewan: Yeah, yeah.

[00:14:15] Dr. Nicole: And watch both of them and decide who we wanna be. Mm-hmm. That's like our empowerment moment when we get to choose how we wanna show up.

[00:14:23] Ewan: Sure. Yep. Yep. Yeah, I mean, I, I kind of recently went through an experience where I, I felt almost hijacked by my parts.

[00:14:32] Dr. Nicole: Oh really?

[00:14:32] Ewan: You know, like I, I made, I made a decision and I arrived at a place that I really didn't wanna be, and I could see the compulsion.

Mm-hmm. You know, I could see the way I was being drawn, but there was nothing I could do about it except observe.

[00:14:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:48] Ewan: And, uh, at the time it was. A little weird, little weird, but you know, afterwards, after processing it, it's, it was actually an amazing experience.

[00:14:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:14:59] Ewan: So, yeah, I understand how the parts can, uh, the more awareness you, you can have of them, the better off you are.

Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:06] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Any wisdom from that experience that you'd want to impart with your younger self now when you look back after going through the spiral?

[00:15:18] Ewan: Oh, wow. Yeah. Um, so, you know, I am trauma informed. Um, that is part of my past. And, uh, what I took from that experience was, um, just allowing my past to see what happens when they blend.

And watching what happens when my everyday self is at the helm

[00:15:41] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:15:41] Ewan: When they're blended, life can be chaotic. But, um, you know, my, my everyday self, like I, I recently, uh, wound up getting a decent sized raise mm-hmm. Advocating for myself.

[00:15:55] Dr. Nicole: Nice.

[00:15:56] Ewan: But when I'm, when I'm able to just be the everyday self, everything goes beautifully smoothly.

Yeah. You know, and so if I was going to say to my younger self, it would be just, just trust in the process.

[00:16:09] Dr. Nicole: Ah. Mm-hmm. I'm letting that one land for myself too. 'cause you know, it's like, oh, where's the control? Where's the control you're telling me to trust?

[00:16:19] Ewan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:21] Dr. Nicole: Wow. Yes. And I'm curious too, for you, when do you first hear of relationship anarchy?

When does this word come into your consciousness? Where are you, what's happening?

[00:16:34] Ewan: Sure. So kind of a fascinating journey. Yeah. Um, what really struck me was, um, I've been a, an anarchist for, I don't know, 30 years.

[00:16:44] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:16:45] Ewan: You know, political, um, and understand all of the concepts and support community and all of that stuff.

Mm-hmm. And then when I heard about relationship anarchy, at first I was like, that sounds weird, you know? And then I, I, I, I came across the manifesto

[00:17:05] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:17:06] Ewan: And straight away it just, it just worked for me, you know? And, and then I started wondering, how come I didn't think this way before? Like, it's the natural, the natural progression for anarchy is relationship anarchy.

Absolutely. And so what, really, it was almost a shock.

[00:17:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:17:27] Ewan: That I'd been so blind to that. Concept. You know, it, once I understood it and read about it, I was like, this is perfectly logical. Makes perfect sense. How did I miss it? Mm. For 30 odd years, you know? Yeah. And, um, that's kind of, that's where I started questioning, you know, um, who benefits?

[00:17:51] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:17:52] Ewan: What's all this about? You know, the power structure, you know, is this about selling more cars? Is this about, you know, feudal times, you know, land, property, all that kind of stuff. So I, interestingly, I first came across it, I was, I was seeing someone and um, I was kind of wanting a little more time with them than they could offer.

And this person said to me, you know, you need to find someone else. And I was like, oh, like, that's a shame, you know, I'm really enjoying this. Yeah. And then they said, no. You need to find someone else. And for a few weeks I was like, I couldn't understand what they were trying to tell me. And then I realized, ah, okay, I get it now.

So that was kind of the beginning of my journey. Yeah. And, um, like that, that didn't work out. And that's fine. You know, everybody's a teaching.

[00:18:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:48] Ewan: And so then I came across another person who was poly and, um, it doesn't really suit me in terms of, I, I'm, I'm a very organic style practitioner, I suppose you would say.

So e even down to timing, you know, I don't know what I'm gonna be wanting to do next week, you know?

[00:19:09] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:19:11] Ewan: Tomorrow or this afternoon, you know?

[00:19:13] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Thanks for making it for the call today.

[00:19:16] Ewan: Yeah. Yeah. Happy to be here. Yeah. Um, so at the moment, um, I do have somebody sort of close in my life, but they're a long way away.

But, um, with relationship anarchy, I don't know. It just, it distance doesn't matter.

[00:19:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:19:34] Ewan: I'm finding.

[00:19:35] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:36] Ewan: Because the connection is deeper maybe.

[00:19:39] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:19:39] Ewan: I'm not sure why still exploring that one, but, um, yeah.

[00:19:44] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Potentially more authentic. 'cause you're not hiding back so many parts of yourself, of the human condition outta fear that it could cause disconnection if you were to express interest in doing something off the escalator.

Interest in a different person, interest in a different type of way of relating. Right. Which often so many of us hold all of that back 'cause we're worried that we'll lose connection. So maybe there is a bit of aspect of, uh, more authentic and deeper connection potentially.

[00:20:14] Ewan: Mm. Yeah. I, I noticed too that because there's no hierarchy of relationship, I, I'm, I'm also deepening every connection that I have.

[00:20:23] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Yep.

[00:20:24] Ewan: You know, I haven't experienced recently where, huh. I was able to notice that, uh, someone that I'd been seeing on a regular basis, a friend had fallen pregnant.

[00:20:35] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:20:36] Ewan: And no one else had noticed. No one else around her had noticed. Wow. And I just kind of hinted at it and she was like, oh, thanks for noticing.

You know, but this is, this is what happens when you're in the moment with people all the time. You know, you just, you just notice more than mm-hmm. I guess other people do.

[00:20:55] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:20:56] Ewan: So, yeah, it's just another interesting facet.

[00:20:59] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Absolutely. The presence. And I feel like that's a great segue into the next question, which is how do you practice it?

What does your practice of relationship anarchy look like?

[00:21:11] Ewan: Oh, wow. Um, at the moment. Well, I'll go through an experience I had recently.

[00:21:18] Dr. Nicole: Perfect. Yeah.

[00:21:18] Ewan: Um, I went to a, a pro-Palestinian rally. Biggest in the city that we've had and the experience of being in a crowd of 50,000 people. It wasn't a sea of people.

Uh, it was an ocean of parks.

[00:21:35] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:21:36] Ewan: And that's kind of how I, how I am in the world now. I don't kind of really focus too much on this partner, that partner, this friend, that friend. Everybody's just. I guess, yeah. And I'm in theirs.

[00:21:52] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. So I'm hearing this embrace of community, a web of folks rather than delineating of this is the partner, this is the partner, and here's the rest.

It's uh, this is my whole web of all the people that I have and I choose to be present with each one. And the intimacy that unfolds with each one.

[00:22:12] Ewan: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's beautiful.

[00:22:14] Dr. Nicole: Uhhuh Uhhuh. And I can see how, you know, when I first was researching the topic and starting my dissertation many years ago, I could see how mindfulness and the concepts around non-attachment we're so deeply connected to the, I just felt it.

And so I'm curious for you, how do you see those two things being connected?

[00:22:37] Ewan: Yeah, yeah. Okay. So from a Buddhist perspective, we talk about taking refuge in Sangha, and that is the collection of people who kind of. We support each other. It's a community. It's, um, our practice is shared and we learn from each other.

Mm-hmm. And we all have input and everybody is a lesson for everybody else, you know?

[00:22:59] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:23:00] Ewan: Community is just Sanger. Mm-hmm. So, you know, kind of everybody that I interact with, you know, they're, they're a teaching. There's a lesson that I have, you know, even the, and, and from like a Buddhist perspective, another example is even people that annoy you,

[00:23:17] Dr. Nicole: ah,

[00:23:19] Ewan: people that you don't get on with.

You know, there's a lesson in everybody.

[00:23:24] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:23:24] Ewan: And, uh, that's, that's what I'm constantly searching for, is where is the lesson here in everything. Ah. And um, what's also been helpful for me is, um, some time ago I started making the obstacle my path.

[00:23:39] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:41] Ewan: Concept. And um, that really helped me to focus on areas that I was avoidant of.

Mm. And that's really takes me a long way forward.

[00:23:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:23:55] Ewan: So, for example, jealousy.

[00:23:56] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I was just curious.

I was curious. Yeah.

[00:24:00] Ewan: Rather than, uh, running from it, run into it. Mm. You know, try and understand what that is all about.

[00:24:08] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:24:09] Ewan: Um, for me, I found what I was doing with jealousy was, um, objectifying another person.

[00:24:16] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:17] Ewan: So I was projecting my own past

[00:24:22] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:24:22] Ewan: Perhaps trauma uhhuh onto the other person, and I was missing who they actually were.

[00:24:29] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:24:30] Ewan: Um, and who they were was really beautiful people, but, um, letting go of, of objectifying people. Quietening the stories.

[00:24:41] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah.

[00:24:41] Ewan: You know, not allowing the stories to, um, take over and just letting things be.

Um, has been great for practice.

[00:24:50] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I am really inspired by that. Yeah. Going deeper into the obstacle rather than a way. Right. And the transformation that comes on the other side of, I mean, wow. Absolutely. When you go through that to the other side, you're like, wow, I'm much stronger than I ever thought I could have been.

And it's so fascinating as we were talking about with projecting onto other people, you know, all the time we're creating stories and narratives of who we are, you know? Mm-hmm. Every single moment. And so. We create narratives and stories of the people that we're in deep relationship with. And if we're getting jealous about other people, we create even wilder stories about those people.

Mm. Some of which we've never even met before, but we hear 1, 2, 3, 3 things and we're like, Nope, forget that person. I'm done. You know, whatever sort of protection. Yep. And that's what that is, right? Is like, um, and, and sometimes there are people that we need to take space from. So I'm not gonna say that that doesn't happen, but often I think because of the systems that we're in.

And the paradigms where we haven't seen a world of this more expansive community mindset as a safe practice. There's still a lot of fear in the body that's been socially conditioned into us. And so it's very, it's very normal in that sense for the quote unquote, other to therefore be scary because it's an unknown.

And so of course the more you practice this, I do think it gets easier over time, like any sort of exposure therapy, um, with the obstacle. Right. But, um, at the beginning and, and still to this day, you just have to be so curious about what is the story I'm telling myself about this moment? What is the story I'm telling myself about that person and then that other person I don't even know, and how am I maybe trying to keep myself safe?

What am I trying to do here that could be a defensive, protective strategy that I could get a little curious about?

[00:26:41] Ewan: Yeah, yeah, for sure. And asking yourself, is this story true?

[00:26:47] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:26:47] Ewan: You know, how much of this do I actually know for sure

[00:26:51] Dr. Nicole: when I'm activated? I know all of it. I'm confident I know all of it.

No, forget that person. Rock. You know? It's like,

[00:26:59] Ewan: and that's the, that's the practice. You know, like Tibetans have, have a word for both accomplishment and practice. It's called job path.

[00:27:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:11] Ewan: And the meaning I take from that is that the practice is the accomplishment. You know? There's no end goal. There's no, um, wow.

I'm a relationship anarchist. Now look at me. Yay. You know, it's, there's none of that. It's just a journey. Yeah. That, that is the practice is just catching ourselves. Half the time is just before the story starts running away, you know, to just stop and catch ourselves and go, okay, what's real here?

[00:27:43] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. And that's why I love the word practice for this. I think that's so essential because you're right, there's not gonna be some point in our life where we have completely unpacked every system of power and oppression. To think that we could would be silly, right? Because it's the water we live in, it's in the unconscious, it's so much, right?

And so we'll get to the end of our lives still unpacking more and importantly it. We wanna make sure we also celebrate how far we've come from. 'cause sometimes I work with myself, clients, people in my community who are like, Ugh, look at how far I need to go. There's still more. There's still more. And I'm like, can we hold on and acknowledge how far you've already come by confronting so many other obstacles.

And so like. It's that. Yes. And with the practice of of, yes, there is always more. And also look how far you've come. And also it's a practice like any sort of mindfulness. You can be trying to meditate, meditate, and then you get distracted by some sort of thought that comes in. And if your next thought is.

Now I'm distracted. And then the next thought is, oh no, I'm horrible. Oh no, this. And then you just spiral deeper and deeper and deeper away from the meditation. And I think that that's so essential with relationship anarchy too. Because there are gonna be moments, I, I'll say this confidently, where we all mess up, right?

Where we all mess up,

[00:29:01] Ewan: of course.

[00:29:02] Dr. Nicole: We get scared, we're jealous. We don't show up as our best selves, the parts of ourselves that are scared and activated come forward. Right? And we wanna take accountability for that, be there for the repair. Mm-hmm. And also, mm-hmm. Get back into the practice as soon as possible.

You're losing the meditation every time that you beat yourself up for it. Right. It's like, just get back on the horse and we ride again. You know? Easier said than done. Absolutely.

[00:29:29] Ewan: Yeah.

[00:29:30] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:30] Ewan: Yeah. And you know, also thinking about the model of ourselves that we're trying to be.

[00:29:35] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:29:36] Ewan: You know, there's a saying that we are already who we seek to become.

[00:29:41] Dr. Nicole: Oh.

[00:29:41] Ewan: You know, it's not so much about what we need to gain. Mm. It's also about the things we need to allow to let go.

[00:29:49] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:50] Ewan: So often everybody seems to be, you know, I need to be this, I need to be that, I need to get this, I need to get that. Hey buddy. Okay. Back here.

Um, you know, but there, there's a lot to do with, um, actually letting go of stuff like, which is a practice in itself. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:13] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. A humbling one for sure. And so. I'm curious for you. The next question is, why do you practice relationship anarchy? Why is this important to you?

[00:30:27] Ewan: It's reached a point now where I can't be or do anything else.

[00:30:32] Dr. Nicole: You're not the first person to say that.

[00:30:34] Ewan: Yeah. It's, it's like the bell that's been rung that can't be unr. Mm-hmm. You know, it's, uh, sort of step through the door and go, well, this is it.

[00:30:44] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly. And there are days where I've wanted to go back.

There are days where I've wanted to go back. 'cause I'm like, it seemed simpler before it really wasn't. But some days I'm like, whoa, no.

[00:30:56] Ewan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a great practice. Yeah. And I, I, I'm continue to explore it because it's just an exploration, you know, it's, it's not a, a place that you are, it's just a place you explore.

[00:31:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:11] Ewan: But it just really allows me to be my more genuine self.

[00:31:17] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:18] Ewan: And that's. That's kind of my journey.

[00:31:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:31:22] Ewan: You know, just to be as authentic and genuine as I can be in myself and with others.

[00:31:29] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:31:29] Ewan: And relationship anarchy is like a vehicle for that.

[00:31:33] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What do you see it bringing out in you?

What are the authentic parts that maybe were restricted before that, through this new practice and paradigm you have access to, to explore?

[00:31:46] Ewan: That's a really interesting one. There's a couple of things that come up. So I, I was sort of relationship avoidant.

[00:31:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:53] Ewan: Um, dismissive. Avoidant.

[00:31:54] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:31:56] Ewan: And that was like, I'm, I'm straight.

So that was just like female or male I would be avoidant of. And it was interesting, I discovered that the, on the male side, I didn't have many male friends and it took relationship anarchy, the practice of it to really. Be mindful and study that. And I started to realize that from the monogamous model, I was actually threatened by having male friends in my world because, uh, you know, they were gonna take somebody away potentially.

[00:32:32] Dr. Nicole: Right, right.

[00:32:34] Ewan: So, um, that was a really awakening moment and that has definitely changed since I've been practicing.

[00:32:42] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:43] Ewan: So it changes the whole dynamic of the world you live in. Yeah. Such a deep thing. It's, it's sometimes it's hard to describe.

[00:32:51] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. That's where I love that question. Again, I'll pose to you sitting where you're at now with the open-heartedness that you do have, the wisdom that you do have, what would you say to your younger self who is afraid to have any relationships to other men because of that fear of threat?

[00:33:11] Ewan: Uh, look, I'd just say have patience. Yourself trust in the process again, that the world is actually a lot safer than you think it is.

[00:33:23] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:24] Ewan: And there was once a time when I needed to be the way I was.

[00:33:30] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:33:30] Ewan: But now that time's passed and it's just time to, to enjoy. Yeah.

[00:33:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. And were there previous experiences where that actually happened of a threat and loss?

Like that we can have compassion for the self that like, you know, I would assume that you were trying to keep yourself safe. Maybe there was like a past moment or that is what happened and therefore, you know, we, we harden up and we shell up from that.

[00:33:58] Ewan: Mm-hmm. Oh yeah. Absolutely. As I say, I'm trauma informed.

Yeah. So I've only just sort of recently really deepened my practice. Mm-hmm. Um, I lost my 16-year-old daughter.

[00:34:11] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:11] Ewan: Um. Back in 21. Mm. And that was a, a form of ego death. Really. Yeah. Uh, all of the things that I thought were true Mm. I discovered were not.

[00:34:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:34:27] Ewan: And, uh, that's when my practice deepened. Yeah.

And that's, that's where everything has moved from there, you know?

[00:34:37] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:34:39] Ewan: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Yeah. I'm sorry for your loss and also thank you for opening up about it. Oh,

[00:34:48] Ewan: that's okay. That's okay. And then, you know, there are, the thing about grief is that everybody suffers it.

[00:34:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:54] Ewan: That's the teaching for me.

[00:34:56] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:56] Ewan: Um, is that it's not the isolating experience that I thought it was. Mm. Yeah. It's actually a unifying thing that it's all us humans go through.

[00:35:05] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:35:07] Ewan: So I bring it up. In case there is anybody else out there who might be feeling that isolation, to just understand that grief is the universal, everybody suffers.

That's the nature of life.

[00:35:20] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. So reaching out to that listener who does feel that, to know that they're not the only one. Right. Who's moving through that. And, and, and life will bring us many waves of that, you know, it's not just one moment of grief. There'll be many across the lifetime.

And so define, uh, our humanness, our shared humanity in those moments. Mm-hmm. Is really profound.

[00:35:43] Ewan: It is. It is. And to, to understand too, that life isn't a straight line.

[00:35:49] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:49] Ewan: It's a circle, you know, there's no beginning, there's no end. Uh, it's just continual circle.

[00:35:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:58] Ewan: Um, so there's no finish line.

There's no start line. We are just here and now.

[00:36:03] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And. You know, the more you want to embrace pleasure and feel all that is good in our life. 'cause so many people will run towards out of pleasure, pleasure, pleasure. I want this. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I'm wickedly passionate about pleasure, liberation. And the reality is you can't pick and choose what emotions you feel.

And so the more pleasure you feel, the more grief, agony that you're going to feel because it's about expanding your capacity to feel it all rightly. And so I think people have to understand that you want more pleasure, you're gonna cry just as hard. So embrace both. Be ready.

[00:36:40] Ewan: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. For sure.

And that, that's, that's what it is. It's capacity and it's,

[00:36:46] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:36:47] Ewan: You can even tie this back to neuroplasticity.

[00:36:49] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:36:50] Ewan: As the BA brain, uh, changes the path pathway, um, it's gonna feel weird. But that's, that's healing. That's growing. Yeah.

[00:37:01] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Mm-hmm. And so I'm hearing this theme of community and web and trusting in shared experiences and finding belonging, connection there.

And then also how, you know, in the past when men were a threat, I'd imagine more so now this understanding of seeing men and other relationships as a part of what forms the community and the ecosystem and gives it life. And so I think often that comes from an abundance mindset, being able to like know that there are so many people you could connect with around grief, right?

So many people that you could connect with in romantic sense or whatever sense of way you wanna connect. Absolute. But the more you have those options, the less you tightly hold onto control or try to defend it. Yeah, I'd love to hear more about that for you. Absolutely.

[00:37:56] Ewan: Yeah, sure. Yeah. No, uh, abundance is, is, is a huge, huge part of the practice for me.

[00:38:02] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:03] Ewan: That's absolutely essential.

[00:38:05] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:38:06] Ewan: Uh, the scarcity mindset is, for me, the, um, sort of the monogamous angle, the abundance is, yeah. It's, it's huge. You know, it's the whole planet and everything else.

[00:38:19] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. 8 billion people,

[00:38:21] Ewan: my dog, my dog matters, you know? Yeah. Um, everybody matters. Everything matters, and it just changes the whole frame.

[00:38:29] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:30] Ewan: And the other budd of theme, uh, around this is, is the, the concept of interconnectedness.

[00:38:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:37] Ewan: That's really part of my practice as well, is to just be able to feel that I'm a part of something bigger than myself.

[00:38:45] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:45] Ewan: You know? And whether it be happiness or sadness, everybody's going through it.

Yeah. People are teachings for others, you know, we all teach ourselves and it's whether we, it's how deep a lesson we wanna learn.

[00:38:59] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so trusting in that, trusting in the opportunity of people that are around us to learn from, to be with. And I know some people feel like there is a lack of understanding when you say like, oh, there's a bunch of people, like, just go find someone else.

Right. In a way that. Negates the specialness of each person. And so I wanna hold the nuance that of that, right? When we're in these moments, especially around things like jealousy, the reality is there is no other person that is that one person that's you or the person you're thinking about or feeling jealous about.

Like that is a finite resource. That is that one. Person. And so I think we can do, um, the complex holding of both, of knowing that there is that finite person and also there is an abundance of people. And so I say that to acknowledge all the folks who feel like they get written off by the abundance.

They're like, well, I don't want abundance. I want that person. Right? And it's like, I hear you. 'cause that is a finite resource. Right. Um, and also what does it mean to think about it as a garden, right? Um, we, or just any sort of ecosystem in general. Not even a garden, but like you benefit from diversity, right?

We benefit from switching things out, from having different players in the ecosystem, right. To bring in different nutrients and all those pieces. And so I guess just adding that into the conversation around the finiteness of the individual, the abundance of the community, and the benefits of having diversity and being conscious of when you are so tightly holding onto one person, what are the narratives around that?

Mm-hmm. And, and the listeners can't see me right now mm-hmm. Because this is only audio, but I'm like making like a, um, a c clause out and in, you know, sort of like holding, you know, uh, it's, it's, it's something to get curious about, you know, what's going on for you in the psyche when that happens.

[00:40:53] Ewan: Mm-hmm.

And there's another asset, uh, aspect to that too. And that's the fact that even that one person, they're constantly changing.

[00:41:02] Dr. Nicole: Right, right, right, right.

[00:41:04] Ewan: Constantly changing that that one person that you see first thing in the morning this morning is not gonna be the same person you wake up to tomorrow.

Right.

[00:41:12] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:41:13] Ewan: So, you know, whether it be someone at a store, whether it be a partner, whether it be a friend, a dog, they're constantly changing. And so I think it speaks a lot to us learning to adapt, to change.

[00:41:32] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:32] Ewan: And embracing that change, seeing that person change and going, wow, that's really special.

You know, like, I noticed that this has changed in you today. You know? Yeah. That's being present and having an appreciation for other, so when we, you know, when we clinging why we suffer.

[00:41:50] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's the saying that pain is inevitable, but suffering is a choice.

[00:41:57] Ewan: Absolutely correct. Yeah.

[00:41:59] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Humbling. Just humbling is all I'm gonna say. Every day I'm like, damn, that change thing again. And I, I do think I get closer to sitting with that constant every day, but it, it, it always humbles me truly.

[00:42:14] Ewan: Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, it's, it's not easy to, to hold sometimes, but, um, I, I find that in the toughest times is when it really counts for me.

[00:42:23] Dr. Nicole: Right, right. It will pass.

[00:42:26] Ewan: Things are tough. I, I just remember. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And also, impermanence has brought me beautiful things before.

[00:42:33] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:33] Ewan: It'll bring me plenty more.

[00:42:35] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:36] Ewan: So, you know, uh, what am I holding onto here?

[00:42:39] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. '

[00:42:39] Ewan: cause when I'm holding onto something, my fist is clenched.

[00:42:44] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:44] Ewan: It's not open.

[00:42:46] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:42:46] Ewan: And I think that's the, that's the important thing for us to remember.

[00:42:51] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think another spiritual piece that comes to mind was thinking about loving kindness meditations and really meditating on. Loving your enemy, if that's a word that you resonate with you or the listeners and loving the whole world.

Like truly that meditation of sitting with that and trying to visualize all of the people on this planet, all of the entities, let's even go a little bit deeper. I love my cat, right? All of the entities, the plants, the beans, the water, all of it. Yeah. Um, and if you really think about loving all of those people, loving all of those entities, there's multiple relationships for you right there.

Like, that's the beginning where you're like, oh, right. I love every, oh, okay. Well that's definitely more than one. You know? Yeah.

[00:43:37] Ewan: Yeah. And that's, that's the interconnection side of it.

[00:43:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:41] Ewan: You know, we require everything to be as it is for it to be as it is. So to wanna remove somebody from. Doing something, for example, by changing them, you're changing yourself.

[00:43:56] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:57] Ewan: So everything we do affects everybody else in different ways. And so the more. Loving kindness we can bring into the world that the happier the world is.

[00:44:07] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I like to trust in the ripples of that. Right?

[00:44:10] Ewan: Oh, that's, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's huge.

[00:44:14] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:15] Ewan: Yeah.

[00:44:17] Dr. Nicole: And we're also combating a very western framework of hyper individualism.

Right. Where it's like, especially in America where I'm at, which is like, I'm my own entity. I have done this all by myself. Look at me. Right. And it's, it's just funny, you know, even when you really sit with it, you know, from the womb, we have to be held, we have to be fed. Even the language that is coming out of my mouth, did I create these words?

Absolutely not. Did someone teach me these words? Yes. Right. And so it's like every single moment, even from the food we eat, right, the interconnection is there. And so we're combating another deeply internalized system, which is hyper individualism. And I feel like that's very. Uh, a huge antithesis to any sort of anarchist values, which is really about community, right?

Those people who call themselves relationship anarchists and say, no one can control me. You can't make any commitments with me. I get to do whatever I want. I find that much more to be libertarianism rather than anarchy, which I think is actually this deeper embrace of like, wow, we are all interconnected.

And so when I make this move, I need to be conscious that it's not just me, it's also my web of people, their web of people, sometimes even generations later in terms of, you know, the choices I'm making around what objects I buy and stuff like that, right? Like, this is all part of the practice of, of anarchy and not just thinking about the people alive right now.

What are the choices I'm making that are setting up future generations to live on this planet? Well, that's right.

[00:45:47] Ewan: Yep. And you, you, you know, you're looking at a t-shirt, but that t-shirt has come from somewhere. Where does it come from? It comes from maybe a sweatshop. How did that system originate? You know, you just follow it back.

Where does that thread come from? Where was it grown or where was it manufactured? Mm-hmm. The, the poisons that are used to, um, build the things that we consume every day. And I think it, it just helps to be mindful of all the things that we do in that way. That what are we contributing to? Like we're not just going out buying a t-shirt,

[00:46:26] Dr. Nicole: right?

[00:46:26] Ewan: We're buying something else.

[00:46:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:28] Ewan: Um, and is that worth the price? Mm-hmm.

[00:46:33] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. And so we take time and that practice, 'cause the more you have that consciousness, the more you can move through every day. Which is like, well what about this? What about that? Oh my God, what about this? What about that?

So it seems like a scaffolding, like you, you like, you just start with that baseline awareness and you just keep building more and more and more capacity to hold that level of consideration and consciousness for the ways that your, your, uh, actions impact other people or lack of actions. Right. And, and then again, it being a practice, 'cause we're definitely not gonna get it right all the time, but hopefully we're going in some sort of general sense of more and more awareness, more and more consciousness around this.

[00:47:12] Ewan: Mm.

[00:47:12] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:13] Ewan: And we, you know, if we're gonna be preaching to others Yeah.

[00:47:17] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:47:17] Ewan: We need to be pretty, pretty, uh, spot on in ourselves, you know?

[00:47:21] Dr. Nicole: Oh, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I always tell my listeners, I'm like, I'm not, I'm not preaching. I cry every day. Like, you know, I'm just here to explore. I'm exploring with you guys, you know?

No preaching.

[00:47:31] Ewan: Yeah, yeah,

[00:47:31] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[00:47:32] Ewan: Absolutely.

[00:47:33] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Well, so I'm, I'm curious then the next question, which is, how does relationship anarchy impact your practice of intimacy? I know we're hitting on it already in so many ways.

[00:47:45] Ewan: Yeah. You know, remembering that we are a collection of parts, you know, all of us are collections of parts and we all have a space.

And I become more curious about people now that I'm not projecting onto them.

[00:48:03] Dr. Nicole: Ah, yeah.

[00:48:04] Ewan: I become more curious about who this person in front of me really is. Oh God. And you know, sometimes they don't wanna reveal that, and sometimes they do. But the secret for me has been to let go of the stories, uh, let go of what I'm telling myself about this person and just let them emerge.

Let them emerge and let them dissolve and reemerge and mm-hmm. You know, as I say, the person that got on the bus is not the same person that gets off the bus. Uh, so watching that unfold has become a practice for me now. Yeah. So in terms of intimacy Yeah. Things, things have deepened. Yeah.

[00:48:43] Dr. Nicole: Beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah. It sounds like you're really present to each relationship. Each entity person that you're connecting with and allowing it to unfold for the unique experience that it is, which is huge. 'cause then you can actually be with that person. Right. I know my younger self would've definitely, I definitely had in my monogamous framework these sort of, um.

Glasses almost, where I was looking through the world for the one and only the one. Mm-hmm. And you know, you have this checkbox of things and you're like, do they fit this? Nope. Ah, it's toss. Ah, nope, nope. Toss them. Right. You maybe you, maybe you, I hope you fit every box. No. Okay. Right. And so it's almost, it's interesting how in those moments we have such a, not that it's bad to have goals and look for people that you're aligned with.

Mm-hmm. And values, you know, if you wanna do something in your life, you know, you gotta find people who are aligned with that. So I'm not saying that's bad, but mm-hmm. It's almost how we have such a, a vision of what we want with our reality that we only look for things that align with it. Instead of just actually meeting someone and saying, hi, this is who I am, who are you?

I'd be curious about what you do with your life. And if you fit into those visions and value's, cool. Let's maybe go down that way. And if not, what are other ways we can connect? And I think we had much more of that, that sort of. Community based when we weren't so expanded out, um, as we are now, you know, like now we're very isolated.

Communities are so large. Right. It's a mix of those things. Back in the day when you were just this smaller collection of people, you, you found ways to connect regardless of, you know, all of these things. Mm-hmm. It's, it's almost like the, um, the amount of abundance creates this sort of mindset where you can pick and choose whoever you want.

If people don't align at all, you just toss them out the window. It's, it's wild.

[00:50:35] Ewan: Yeah. It's, um, you know, I, I think when you can be your unique self mm-hmm. Uh, you, uh, going to be naturally more aligned

[00:50:46] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:50:46] Ewan: To other unique people. If you are playing a role,

[00:50:51] Dr. Nicole: right.

[00:50:52] Ewan: You're only gonna find other people playing roles, you know?

So, uh, I think by practicing. Presence and practicing being who you are, you just naturally, in my experience, you just kind of naturally flow with other people that are very similar. And the people that don't align with you, they, they just come and go, you know?

[00:51:16] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah, I'm, I'm confident my younger self would not be listening to this podcast.

I was praying to Jesus. I was with a whole different, like, you know what I mean? Like, should I be upset about that right now? It's like, no, you know, there are so many people in the world who are not aligned with me and who don't, don't like the things that I say. And sure, there are times where my ego feels really hurt by that.

Right? But then you remember like, we're all having different values and experience of this life and there's nothing I can do. And so I guess, you know, I asked you in those moments of what you would say to your younger self and. Uh, I, I know that I fall into this trap, um, when I get scared of thinking that I can contort myself into some magical way, and that means people will stay.

And, and it's such a deep lesson to know that there's no magical cutting off of yourself that you can do and sustain a relationship. Maybe you will for a little bit, but you yourself will start to not be able to breathe from how much constriction you've put on yourself to like contort. Um, and so it, that's a lesson I would want to say to my younger self is, yeah, be more authentic and, and don't fear the unknown.

Of leaving behind these people. But I think that comes from having to trust that there are more people that will be aligned. And that's where I, I love this podcast space as a reminder. Like you're in a completely different country on the other side of the world, right? Like it's a reminder of like, oh, there's lots of people doing this.

Right. Sometimes it can be hard to find those networks, those people, but there are actually a lot of us who are practicing relationship anarchy.

[00:52:49] Ewan: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And and there's people who are probably practicing it that don't even realize it.

[00:52:55] Dr. Nicole: Right? Exactly. Yes. Exactly. Mm.

[00:52:58] Ewan: Exactly.

[00:52:59] Dr. Nicole: Exactly.

[00:53:00] Ewan: It keeps coming back to that embracing of impermanence.

[00:53:04] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:53:05] Ewan: I think, um, that is really the key when we can welcome it instead of run from it.

[00:53:11] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:53:12] Ewan: Uh, that changes the whole dynamic.

[00:53:15] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. Exactly. Confront the obstacle, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:53:20] Ewan: Correct.

[00:53:22] Dr. Nicole: And so. Well, that kind of leads again into a good segue, which is, what are some of the difficulties of relationship anarchy?

What are some of the hard things that you've had to uncover in your practice?

[00:53:35] Ewan: Oh, um, I guess one of the things that comes up for me is because I've discovered this late in life, my cohort still haven't embraced the concept of relationship anarchy yet.

[00:53:45] Dr. Nicole: Ah, yes.

[00:53:46] Ewan: So it can be, it can be a little isolating at times, but having said that, I think I'm talking to way more people now than I've ever done in my life.

Mm. Beautiful. Um, I have just so much rich communication with a number of people that I otherwise wouldn't have because I was on the linear. Escalator, you know, this is where it begins, this is where it ends. Um, right. So now it's just people are just floating in and out of my world and it's, it's just great to experience.

So, you know, I'd say probably that isolation can be a little bit daunting, particularly for maybe people in my cohort.

[00:54:27] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah.

[00:54:27] Ewan: I have heard other people you've interviewed, which I just admire so much. Oh yeah. You know, especially us older folk.

[00:54:38] Dr. Nicole: Yes, yes.

[00:54:39] Ewan: Because we've, we've had, you know, we've had 50 years, you know, more of living in a certain way, in a certain paradigm, and then suddenly there's that zen slap and you wake up and go, wow, what is going on here?

And, uh, so we're having to kind of relearn everything again. Yeah. Uh, so, you know, I, I, I kind of wanted to come on the podcast just to kind of get that across to anybody else who's going through a similar experience that, you know, it's okay that it feels weird.

[00:55:16] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:55:16] Ewan: Um, but if it aligns with you, if that helps you to be more honest, well embrace it.

[00:55:21] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I wanna take a moment to really honor that, all of the bravery it takes for you to have to unpack all of that.

[00:55:32] Ewan: It's an interesting process.

[00:55:36] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:55:38] Ewan: Just sort of studying the mind as it unpacks everything. And questioning, questioning everything that you thought was true, everything that you thought was necessary, everything that you thought you needed.

And then block by block saying, no, that actually doesn't work. And then seeing the reality of it. Um, it's. It is a matrix type experience.

[00:56:02] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. That's something that so many guests have said, and the people in my per uh, dissertation said of, once you see life this way, you, you can't go back.

Right. You went down the rabbit hole. Mm-hmm. And here you are. And I think coming into that space of the balance between questioning everything and, and why and how and what's needed, and then actually living it. 'cause I'm definitely the person who can live in my head all day long of like, why? Well, that's not needed.

Well, this, well that, well that, and then here I am at a party around all of the people thinking about like the interplay, the metal level of dynamics and relationships and what's needed. It's like, oh wait, I gotta ask someone a question. Hey, what's a, you know, like, I, you actually have to live it too. So it's like this, like dance between continually deconstructing, but of course also actually living life and not just spending it all on the meta and the reflection.

[00:56:55] Ewan: Yeah. Well, it's, you know, you're rewiring your brain.

[00:56:58] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:56:58] Ewan: You know, um, you're completely rewiring all the neural pathways that have been fraught so often, so long that it becomes unconscious. So you, you are uncovering those neural pathways that aren't helpful anymore, and you are having to rewire all over again.

And, uh, yeah. It's an interesting process.

[00:57:22] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I almost feel like there's so much. Sometimes at the beginning there's so much push to get out of those frameworks where you really have to like extend your consciousness and start thinking really hard about these different things. Almost in a way that, at least in my own experience at the beginning, I like to think that I was holding the consciousness of all of the people around me as best as I possibly could.

And also I think about how when I was first pushing and, and reflecting so much in myself, uh, that, you know, there's so many systems against and you're pushing so hard. It's, it's hard to still be thinking about how your actions impact other people. It's almost like identity formation of a child, right?

Like at the beginning, the child is still trying to find how to walk. They're still at like, you know, all everything's about them, right? And then they kind of grow up and they're, ah, wow. There's other people. And I think maybe there's a similar way to identity formation around alternative relationships where it's like, you're so hard to get out of the systems.

You're advocating for yourself so hard. And then you get there and you're like, oh wait, there are other people. And almost that, that ability to start holding more. And I, I, at least for me, that's come through like. Experience. You know, at times, maybe I'm the person that is pulling away from someone and feeling like it's not aligned and needing to make that shift.

And then I get another experience where someone else does that to me, and I didn't want that. And I have to go through all of the feelings of that. And so next time when I am with someone and I'm advocating for more space, I now have more awareness of what that feels on both sides. Right. And so some of these things I feel like we just, we truly don't have like an ego level consciousness around these experiences until you've gone through them, and then therefore you have more capacity to hopefully be thinking about other people in a way where you can kind of empathize and understand what that might look like.

But at the beginning, you're just, you're just trying to get into the consciousness.

[00:59:20] Ewan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That is an interesting way of looking at things too. Experiencing it from both sides and it humbling. It's what this, what the yeah. What the practice is all about, you know, and it's, it's present, being present in those moments, uh, rather than running from jealousy or, you know, um, running from space or towards space.

It's about just seeing what's going on in there and understanding it. And having compassion for yourself as well as for the other person.

[00:59:52] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I feel like if I could look back on some of the experiences with it for myself, I would say, you know, just take a deep breath. I don't know, maybe go for a walk before you respond to that text.

Like, just take a walk, take a couple of deep breaths. Mm-hmm. Maybe go take a yoga class, a swim in the lake, and then respond. You know? 'cause in the moment you're so impassioned and, and all of that. And I think that's something that we're all having to unpack, which is how much the systems, especially in romantic relationships have.

Push this narrative of you go with whatever your instinct is in your heart, you go with that. If you want to go throw rocks at their window in the middle of the night, you go, 'cause that means what it, that's what it means to love someone and problematic. Mm-hmm. Right. A lot of them films from earlier generations.

Right. It's like that, um, it's a often a very hydrodynamic and the, the female says no, but the male pursues because the male really wants, and that's what it means to love. And we previously used to have like laws that would allow you to murder out of rage of fear of infidelity and other things that were allowed under legal systems as well.

You're in love and you're in Madden, and that makes sense. Right? And so we have this long lineage of, uh, especially around romantic relationships to really go with that initial gut and what you're feeling that's so authentic. And I, and I feel like this practice requires a lot of. Sitting and waiting and trying to not just go from that reactive space.

We wanna respond, not react.

[01:01:25] Ewan: Yeah. Look, I a hundred percent agree with that, sitting with things that we usually don't like to sit with.

[01:01:32] Dr. Nicole: No.

[01:01:32] Ewan: And I, I've kind of, I've kind of become comfortable in discomfort.

[01:01:38] Dr. Nicole: Oh. Uh, yes.

[01:01:39] Ewan: I've had, I've had to embrace that and it hasn't been easy, but, um, it's, it's something that's, that's so important that mm-hmm.

We are able to at least make friends with our discomfort.

[01:01:55] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:01:57] Ewan: Maybe not love it.

[01:01:59] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:02:00] Ewan: But just understand that it's a teacher.

[01:02:02] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:02:03] Ewan: It's a teacher.

[01:02:04] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's like something like the hands. Or like the hands of pain or the gateway to freedom. There's some sort of quilt around that that I've heard, right?

Mm-hmm. Like those moments when you can really stick with it. I feel like, especially around jealousy, when I'm fearing that there's some gonna be some sort of loss, or that someone's better than me to get to the other side requires me to actually make that stance of, no, I'm gonna be okay. Whether this relationship shifts or not, I'll be okay, and I am great, who I am, right?

So like that moment of pain, truly to get to the other side of not being in pain, you have to ground in that. Otherwise you'll just keep spiraling. And so that other place where you find that stability, I do find that to be stronger once you go through the tunnel to the other side of the light, you know?

[01:02:52] Ewan: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I kind of feel like it's, it's actually like the brain is rewiring itself. Yeah. That discomfort is actually. Neuroplasticity at work.

[01:03:03] Dr. Nicole: Yep, totally.

[01:03:03] Ewan: It's, it's not, not, not a ho horrible, scary boogeyman. It's, it's actually your brain sensing the change.

[01:03:12] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:03:14] Ewan: And until that pattern is repeated, you'll feel a little discomfort.

[01:03:19] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:03:19] Ewan: But once that pattern is repeated in a healthy way. That will go away and that that's your new normal.

[01:03:25] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. That's why a huge role of why people are so interested, I feel like in psychedelic assisted work with this sort of stuff, right? Mm-hmm. I do a lot of that work with my clients and I do think the neuroplasticity of that sort of drug induced moment can really pair well to the neuroplasticity you're trying to do around relationships.

And I also. Yeah. When we're talking about abundance, I feel like it's a bit of a moment to be tone deaf if we don't allow for the level of intersectionality. Right. And so, as you were mentioning, your age, your generation, that is a very unique experience. I have clients who are in very rural areas who, you know, they go on the apps, they go on the threads, they try to find people, and it's real that there's a, there's a real scarcity there.

And so it's a really tough moment that I wanna hold the nuance, as you said, of for you, this is extremely different experience than it is for me or someone of the listeners that are tuning in. Uh, because the, the younger, if you're a listener who's younger, it's more likely that your generation of folks is practicing this.

And I've seen research on that. Mm-hmm. Like 40, it was a u gov study. It wasn't, you know, we don't have enough research on it yet, but it had said that 40% of the younger generations crave a non-monogamous relationship. And the older it, it got, the smaller that percentage. Got Right. And so there is a real reality that you have a very different experience with the concept of abundance around this because there's actually more finiteness and scarcity around, um, maybe people who aligned strictly in the sense of the word relationship anarchy.

But I also appreciate what you had said about how there are other people who practice it without the word and the label, and you can still find the values of that in other people.

[01:05:10] Ewan: Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah. It's, um, also, you know, I'm not that old, but as you get older

[01:05:20] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[01:05:20] Ewan: You have a, you understand you have a scarcity of years.

[01:05:23] Dr. Nicole: Yes, yes.

[01:05:25] Ewan: So that's, that's also, you know, when you're young, it's, you're never gonna die. Yeah, exactly. Nothing's never gonna change. It's all fantastic, you know, unicorns in every paddock.

[01:05:34] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:05:35] Ewan: But as you get older, you know, you just realize that, uh, you know, you just, it's just, just normal existential thought.

[01:05:42] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:05:42] Ewan: Uh, but that, that also is an interesting. Juxtaposition to be making as well.

[01:05:48] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I feel like that's one of my favorite, um, practices that I learned from Buddhism around really waking up and meditating on death. That is something that is profound, like profoundly changed my life, uh, to, to start that at such a young age where you wake up and that's, you know, intentionally one of the first thoughts you have is, right, I'm going to die.

That is inevitable, whether it's today or how many years from now. And, and as you were saying, the more you grasp that impermanence, I think the more you can feel the pleasure of the moment or, or the pain, whatever it is, but just to be present with it and feel it all.

[01:06:24] Ewan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That presence is really all you have, isn't it?

[01:06:28] Dr. Nicole: Right,

[01:06:29] Ewan: exactly. Ultimately.

[01:06:31] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. Well, I like to balance this question out with what are the joys of relationship anarchy? What are some of the beautiful things that you've experienced?

[01:06:41] Ewan: Oh, look, just, you know, I'm thinking of. Particular friend that I have, but I have a number of great friends. Yeah. Um, the depth that I've never, ever experienced before.

Yeah. And it's just through this practice, you know, that I'm able to be open enough to, to reach those depths. And I've noticed too that when you let go of all the stories of all of the stuff that was you were holding onto, there's so much more room

[01:07:11] Dr. Nicole: Ah,

[01:07:11] Ewan: in yourself.

[01:07:13] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:07:13] Ewan: And so much more capacity for creativity and like, it's just gone from sort of sitting around the house not doing much to God.

You know, I got so many projects, I don't know which one to do next. Right. And that's just having that clear space.

[01:07:29] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:07:29] Ewan: You know, not, not those worries that I used to have. They're gone.

[01:07:32] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:07:34] Ewan: So I now notice that, yeah. I just have more energy, more internal space.

[01:07:38] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:07:39] Ewan: Um, and. Everything just seems more real.

[01:07:43] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely.

When you get off the escalator, the next metaphor mm-hmm. I usually use is coming to a blank canvas. It's no longer the paint by numbers clearly line track of your life. Mm-hmm. Which can cause anxiety for a lot of us. Right. Of, well, what's the next step? Where am I supposed to draw the line? You know? And so I'm sure every, the artist part inside all of us is, can like, understand what that feels like.

And also speaking to the abundance of opportunities and ways that you can go with your life, right? Like, you have that whole blank canvas and no one's putting you into this small box of a portrait of your life with the white, you know, white fence and 2.5 kids in the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah house. You know, like, like you get this whole opportunity to find life and meaning making and it, and it's really your blank canvas that you're creating.

[01:08:38] Ewan: Hmm. Yeah. In, in Buddhism there's a term, uh, and that's the western mind usually takes that as emptiness, but what it actually is, is opportunity. So within that empty space, there's so much that can happen. Yeah. So much that will happen. So much that can emerge. And the more you sort of get the idea that, you know, that blank campus isn't field of opportunity.

[01:09:11] Dr. Nicole: Hmm mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. All of it is right there. Right there. And so I appreciate your ability to connect those dots from that spiritual framework that is my younger self who is wanting to talk about that is so happy to be here. Right. Where someone else is like connecting them with me. I'm like, yes, it's finally happening.

Um, and so I'm curious, the last question I have, which is. What do you wish other people knew about relationship anarchy?

[01:09:40] Ewan: Uh, look, I, I, I have to speak for my own cohort, you know, I, I'd just like them to understand that change is good. Change is okay. You know, it's okay to be who you are. You don't have to play by anyone's rules and just embrace yourself.

[01:10:00] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:10:00] Ewan: And the rest will come.

[01:10:03] Dr. Nicole: Mm, yeah. Yeah. But teaching and yoga are, the saying in yoga is practice and all is coming.

[01:10:10] Ewan: Beautiful.

[01:10:11] Dr. Nicole: Beautiful. Mm-hmm. And so I think about that a lot with, with any sort of change that you want, right? I, I remember the days I couldn't even touch my toes, right? To now the things I'm able to do and the depth of that physical bend in my body, right?

And so they, they say, yeah, keep practicing, keep practicing, keep practicing. And it's hard because some days you don't see how much you've really gone until you have a marker moment, like touching toes, right? Like that's an actual physical moment where I can be like, whoa, I've actually hit that. And so again, as I was saying, so many of my clients, I think.

And myself included, we get to moments where we're still always looking forward, always looking forward, but this is a part of integration, especially around psychedelic experiences, both with drugs or with our relational practices. What does it mean to take a moment and reflect like, where am I now in this consciousness compared to a month ago, six months ago, a year?

Five? Take time to reflect on that, right? And so that you can honor yourself and how far you have come in that because it is such a practice that we'll keep going, and I really do think it's important to take the time to reflect with that and not just keep pushing for the next, the next, the next.

[01:11:25] Ewan: Yeah. And, you know, um, the older you are too, the, the, you know, the more conditioning you've had

[01:11:31] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[01:11:32] Ewan: Be, be it, you know, behavioral what, whatever you wanna call it, huge. But there's just way more conditioning, way more, um, you know, it's consumerist society is, um, being at play for many, many years and often telling conflicting stories.

[01:11:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:11:49] Ewan: So, you know, you just, you just start thinking one way and then it's not cool and you've gotta think about something else, and that's not cool and that changes.

[01:11:56] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:11:57] Ewan: So you've had this conflicting messaging your entire life.

[01:12:01] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:12:02] Ewan: And this practice is a practice of getting to what's real.

[01:12:06] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And we need people from that lived experience to speak to the others in that space. Right. People look at me, ah, Dr. Nicole's young, she doesn't get it. She, she doesn't get it. Right. And so it's important that people like you. Uh, step into spaces where there are other listeners tuning in who can learn from you and who can see themselves in your story, in their experience as someone who understands what it means to be moving through this with the identity factors that you do have.

[01:12:39] Ewan: Yeah. Yeah. I hope it does help others

[01:12:41] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:12:41] Ewan: Who may be in a similar space. Yeah. Encourage people to, um, just be themselves.

[01:12:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, I know it was helpful for me for sure. And so I trust I trusted the ripples of all of the listeners who are tuning in to feel that invitation. To embrace, embrace the obstacle, embrace change, embrace the finiteness, and also to trust in the abundance of the people that can love you and the entities and the different ways that we can connect across our lifetime.

[01:13:11] Ewan: Um.

[01:13:12] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:13:13] Ewan: Yeah. I trust in that too.

[01:13:15] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Well, as we come towards the end of our time, I'm gonna take a deep breath with you again

and I'll check in and see if there is anything else that you wanna share with the listeners. Otherwise I can guide us towards a closing question.

[01:13:33] Ewan: Oh, I think we've covered enough today.

[01:13:35] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Today. Absolutely. Absolutely. Alright, well, so then the one question that I ask everyone on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:13:49] Ewan: Yes. This question, I have to say that, um, normal is not a word in my vocabulary.

[01:13:55] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. The anarchist check. There we go.

[01:13:58] Ewan: Yeah. If I have to pin it down, I would say people to understand that it's normal to be abnormal.

[01:14:05] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:14:07] Ewan: I think, um, it's normal when you are changing, when you are becoming genuine to feel raw.

Yeah. And it's normal to feel discomfort

[01:14:20] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[01:14:20] Ewan: In change. But if you maintain your identity, if you, uh, get closer to your original face, that will become more and more comfortable.

[01:14:32] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:14:32] Ewan: And that neural pathway will set.

[01:14:35] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:14:38] Ewan: You won't look back. Yeah,

[01:14:40] Dr. Nicole: yeah, absolutely. You'll find that alignment, right?

Where the things that you're, you're doing in your life are bringing you joy, whether it's the people you're connected with or the spaces that you're in, right? When you find that there is so much life force and joy found in that, and again, like I said earlier, when you're having to cut off parts of yourself to try and fit in for connection, which I have so much love for 'cause that's myself and my younger self at times.

Mm-hmm. Again, you, you, you stop creating space for yourself to even breathe. Right? And so when you leave that behind, you start finding these moments of life where it's deeply aligned and you feel joy and, and also all, any sort of revolutionary change is gonna be uncomfortable. You can't fit in with the mainstream.

If you wanna bring about the change and when there's so many broken systems in the world, like would you want to be a part of that norm?

[01:15:32] Ewan: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I mean, uh, like my father died of a, uh, was right-handed and he actually was born, left-handed. Mm.

[01:15:42] Dr. Nicole: Interesting.

[01:15:42] Ewan: Yeah. But at school, they forced him at school, they came his left hand, and he, he became right-handed because he had to be, because that was normal, to be left-handed was abnormal.

So these are the systems that we're, we're having to fit inside of and they're not good for us.

[01:16:02] Dr. Nicole: No.

[01:16:03] Ewan: So, yeah, you can, you can try and fit in that box if you want to, but it's guarantees that a, not a very happy life lifestyle.

[01:16:12] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so I think one of the. Biggest things to finding security in doing that is knowing that there are other people, as you mentioned, right?

Like reaching out to the other people who are in your generation. The, and I hope this podcast is a reminder to that, all of the episodes that are on the show, right? As a reminder to say, you're not the only one. And so in those moments where it's scary and you're doubting and you're wondering to trust that you will find those people, and when you do, we're stronger together, especially against these large systems, the more that we can hold hands in that, the more power we have.

And so I do really hope that we start to find more of that connection to really change these systems and to feel safe, to really push against them and push hard. Yeah.

[01:17:02] Ewan: Yeah. And, and what I reflect on at times is, uh, how in emergencies. Whether it be hurricanes, whether it be floods, whether it be bush fires, whether it be earthquakes.

[01:17:17] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:17:18] Ewan: The people that get systems running are the people on the ground. Yeah. The community.

[01:17:24] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:17:24] Ewan: Uh, they, they help each other. It's just innate in human beings. Mm-hmm.

[01:17:30] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:17:30] Ewan: And then the government comes along later after the dust settled and says, Hey, look at all the good we're doing, you know?

[01:17:37] Dr. Nicole: Right, right.

[01:17:38] Ewan: So, you know, I, I find that helpful to just, to remember that too. And I see it inside community all the time.

[01:17:44] Dr. Nicole: Mm, mm-hmm. A true anarchist. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love it. Well, it's been such a joy to have you on the podcast today. Thank you for trusting me. I, I am always honored anytime that a listener trust me to come onto the show, to be so vulnerable with your life and your lived experience.

It's truly a gift, and these conversations always push me and challenge me. And so I really, really appreciate you trusting me and, and sharing so much with me and all the listeners today.

[01:18:18] Ewan: Oh, you're welcome, and I, I really appreciate the opportunity to be able to reach perhaps others who might benefit.

[01:18:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. Dear listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Modern Anarchy. Thank you for sharing this episode with your friends, with your lovers, with your community. Truly, it means so much to me, and I am so grateful that you are here. If you are wanting to release jealousy in your nonmonogamous dynamics and step into a compersion and pleasure filled connection, you can read my book, the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide.

For free on my website. There you'll also find so many other free resources, including worksheets on how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non-monogamous dynamics and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure filled sex and relationships.

So head on over to modern Anarchy podcast.com to find all of those free resources, and I look forward to seeing you next week.