258. Your Empowered Pleasure-Based Sexuality Narrative with Jane Downey

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Jane join us for a conversation all about liberating our communities and stepping into empowered pleasure. Together we talk about the bravery to be curious, integrating the wisdom of a dominatrix and doing the Lord's work of pleasure, liberation. Hello, dear listener.

Welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, author of the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and founder of The Pleasure Practice, where I support individuals in crafting pleasurable sex lives and non-monogamous relationships.

Dear listener. Your empowered pleasure based sexuality narrative. Y'all know every single time I have a guest on the show, one of the main questions I ask is, uh, what was your sex ed like, if at all, if you got anything. Maybe they had abstinence only education too. But many guests have talked about their sex education journey, and rarely ever is there a pleasure based narrative.

My God, my God, I'm so grateful to be doing the work that I'm doing in my sexuality program and my 16 week programs, because that's all of what it's focused on. Quite literally, pleasure, liberation, and you can feel the energy in the groups and the things that we're talking about in terms of expanding your narratives.

I'm really big on narrative therapy and love the frameworks that that brings to our psychological experience. And the reality is that because we're so restricted in this world around sex positivity and pleasure based narratives. We have to get creative folks. We have to dream and get creative and see worlds of possibility in our own lives, in our communities, around pleasure based sexuality that have not been given to us in the culture that surrounds us.

And so. I really wanna invite you this week as you listen to this episode and as you move this week, to think about what are the narratives of sex that you have been sold and how could you step into an even more pleasure filled frame to your exploration? Alright, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and free resources@modernanarchypodcasts.com.

And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon members. With a big hello to our newest Patreon member, Tucker, hello is such a joy to have you in the Patreon space. It's such an intimate, private space where I share so much more of my personal life, and it is a joy to have you in that space and to be growing and learning together.

And thank you for supporting this show. We don't run any ads anymore, and so it's all Patreon funded and so thank you, Tucker. Thank you so much. If you wanna check out the Patreon community, learn more about how to support the show and get access to some of my personal posts in that space, the Patreon link is down below, and this is also the last call to join the querying psychedelics Zoom workshop that I'm having this weekend on.

The 11th. So we're meeting at 10:30 AM central time. The link is in the show notes below, I have my full psychedelic team. We're gonna be talking all about what it means to bring the frameworks of psychedelic assisted psychotherapy into your psychedelic practice and also what it means to do that from a particularly queer lens.

This is an all queer staff of providers and I am so excited. So many of you have already signed up, so many of you, and I'm so excited to see you there. Fat Cat is so excited to see you there as well. And of course, all the links to that and so much more are in the show notes below. And with that dear listener, please know that I am sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode,

dear Listener. There's a space already waiting for you where you are invited to let go of every old script about sex and relationships, and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure. Empowerment and deep alignment. I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real transformation possible. And I'll be right there with you guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure and visit modern anarchy podcast.com/. Pleasure practice to apply.

So the first question I like to ask each guest is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:06:11] Jane: I would say, hi, uh, my name is Jane Downey. I am a 24-year-old woman from Cleveland, Ohio, and I currently work as a sex and relationship therapist. Cincinnati, Ohio.

[00:06:25] Dr. Nicole: Well, welcome to the show, Jane. It's so exciting to have you here today.

Hello.

[00:06:30] Jane: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited.

[00:06:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, of course, of course. Well, I think a good place to start would be, I would love for you to share more about your story and pleasure, liberation. How did you become passionate about this work? Where does that journey start for you?

[00:06:48] Jane: Yeah, so I would say it's funny listening to your show and then being so excited to like, I'm trying hard not to fan girl.

[00:06:56] Dr. Nicole: Oh, fan girl. Let's do it. Come on. I'll fan girl back. Ah,

[00:06:58] Jane: yeah, I know. But um, yeah, so it's funny because a lot of the themes in the episode I listened to you are very comfortable and your guests are too, talking about Catholic shame. Yeah. Catholic guilt, the seeds of that. So I come from that background a little bit too.

More so with like, how that shaped my perspective growing up where I was in the Catholic after school. Oh. But a public school student.

[00:07:25] Dr. Nicole: Okay.

[00:07:26] Jane: Like during the day,

[00:07:27] Dr. Nicole: the world Hannah Montana, you've got the one wig, you know?

[00:07:32] Jane: Exactly, exactly. So it was, um, para School of Religion is what it's called. PSR.

Okay. And it was like instead of Sunday school, 'cause you would go to mass on Sunday and then you would do Monday evening, like Sunday school.

[00:07:45] Dr. Nicole: Okay.

[00:07:46] Jane: Basically. Um, and that you would meet all of your same milestones and everything.

[00:07:50] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:07:51] Jane: As we move on from that, my public school, I had like three different sex education experiences.

Oh. All of which left a lot to be desired. Okay.

[00:08:02] Dr. Nicole: Tell me about them. I'm so curious.

[00:08:04] Jane: Yeah. Yeah, because the suburb where I grew up is like very um, Irish Catholic, like suburb of Cleveland. So a lot of people were like in the Christian denomination like that, even if they went to the public school there.

[00:08:18] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:08:19] Jane: So still very homogenous and like the religious way. So lots of biases running around there. Of course.

[00:08:26] Dr. Nicole: Oh, I can imagine.

[00:08:27] Jane: So first I had like the birds and the bees talk from my mom in the fourth or fifth grade, I think.

[00:08:34] Dr. Nicole: Okay.

[00:08:34] Jane: Yeah. From a Viagra commercial.

[00:08:36] Dr. Nicole: Oh, interesting. Yeah. That's a place to start. Yes.

[00:08:39] Jane: Yeah. Which is hilarious because I was like, what? I was like, what's that for? It was like this weird like 50-year-old man, and like he just looked despondent in this commercial and I was like, what's Viagra? And my mom was like, well. It's time, I guess. Like you're gonna learn about it next year.

[00:08:55] Dr. Nicole: All the rapid text could cause death.

[00:09:00] Jane: And I'm like, oh my God, that's terrifying. Is he to die? And she's like, no, he just wants to have sex. And oh by the way, sex is

[00:09:09] Dr. Nicole: this thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay.

[00:09:12] Jane: Yeah, but so I had like a heads up going into it, but sixth grade is when we had like the science class first, like intro to sex ed and it was a couple weeks, I think it was like we learned about puberty and then sex ed was like three days of the puberty section.

[00:09:29] Dr. Nicole: Got it. Okay.

[00:09:30] Jane: Right. There were, whoever answered the most questions like throughout the class period would be crowned the puberty king or queen. Well this was my male science teacher. Okay. Honestly, his name was Mr. I. He was hilarious.

[00:09:46] Dr. Nicole: I'm processing. Yes,

[00:09:48] Jane: absolutely. Yeah. He was hilarious. And he did make it like very normal to talk about and engaging as he did for a group of sixth graders.

[00:09:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:09:55] Jane: Good. So he did a great job. Okay. With what he was given.

[00:09:58] Dr. Nicole: Right, right, right.

[00:09:59] Jane: Um, but about two and a half days of that, of the sex ed once we got to those days, was all about penises to not my surprise now, but I was like, oh, we have to be getting to 'cause I am hadn't gotten my period yet then. But you know, you're thinking about it, your friends have gotten their periods.

Sure. Like bodies are starting to change everything. Yes. And I wanted to learn about it more. And we spent exactly half a class period on periods.

[00:10:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:10:35] Jane: And this is from my memory. Yes. I just remember being so like. And what, like what's following up after this? Yes. And then there was like not a follow up.

[00:10:44] Dr. Nicole: Hmm.

Interesting.

[00:10:46] Jane: Yeah. So I was just like, okay, that was puzzling. And so if we, so that was sixth grade.

[00:10:52] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:10:52] Jane: Still in my public middle school. Yes. Mind you. Yes. So eighth we pivot to eighth grade.

[00:10:57] Dr. Nicole: Okay.

[00:10:58] Jane: And my public middle school brings in this program that, I'm curious if you've heard of it. It's called Project Keepsake.

[00:11:08] Dr. Nicole: No. But I don't like the name and what we've been talking about. So I'm afraid of the purity. I've already sensing it, but tell me about it.

[00:11:16] Jane: Yeah, because I can't remember. I was just listening to one of the ear episodes. I think it was like, yeah, I don't remember which. It was like episode 230 ish. Okay. But someone was talking about a program that was a very similar purity culture one, but basically it was, instead of going to our social studies class for a week.

We had these two people, a man and a woman that came in to be a part of Project keep sake,

[00:11:42] Dr. Nicole: classic, classic Mom, dad. Here we go.

[00:11:44] Jane: And, and you bet your bottom dollar, it was all about celibacy.

[00:11:48] Dr. Nicole: Oh, oh, no, no.

[00:11:51] Jane: You bet your, you wish, you wish it wasn't, but you bet, you bet. It was,

[00:11:54] Dr. Nicole: uh, classic.

[00:11:56] Jane: And so yeah, they split us up by gender, um, by girls and boys in rooms across the hall, um, in our social social studies room for a week.

And we do, we hit all the highlights. So it was the STD, uh, genital slideshow, a kind of like humiliation role play event where, I don't remember exactly how it functioned, but someone had a label that they were a porn addict. And it was like how that made them. Grosser or like le like it was a really weird labeling thing.

[00:12:35] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:12:36] Jane: And I think maybe it was like, you never really know what people are doing. Very untrustworthy. I forget. Yeah. The undertones were, were not great

[00:12:46] Dr. Nicole: listeners can't see my faces of cringe that are happening and I'm just like, oh god. Okay. Okay. Wow.

[00:12:52] Jane: I know it was a lot. Um, and among some other activities, I also remember chief among the things I took away from that was.

That if you kiss someone while you're lying down that you will get pregnant.

[00:13:06] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:07] Jane: But of course.

[00:13:08] Dr. Nicole: Right, right.

[00:13:09] Jane: Of course.

[00:13:09] Dr. Nicole: Of course. Right, right, right. I'm like, I'm like, asterisk, please, listener. You know, we're joking. Right. You know,

[00:13:15] Jane: I'm like,

[00:13:16] Dr. Nicole: the tone was there

[00:13:16] Jane: sarcasm heavy, please.

[00:13:17] Dr. Nicole: So sarcasm. Exactly. Someone's reading the transcript and not listening.

They're like, what are these people saying? It's like, no,

[00:13:23] Jane: look, the show is not about what I thought it was at all.

[00:13:26] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Dr. Nicole, who, right? Yeah, I know.

[00:13:29] Jane: Literally no, very much sarcasm.

[00:13:31] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:13:32] Jane: But basically we got to the end of this week, and so on Friday of that week after this paralyzing terror, um,

[00:13:39] Dr. Nicole: yes.

[00:13:40] Jane: Um, this like quote unquote sex education.

[00:13:43] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:13:43] Jane: We then, all boys and girls all get rejoined in the same room, and they hand us out these little sheets of orange paper and they had like a line on it and like some text and a line, and we didn't know what it was. What do you think they. Handed to a group of eighth graders to sign

[00:14:05] Dr. Nicole: a commitment pledge to say that they weren't gonna have sex until they were married.

[00:14:11] Jane: Indeed, you would be right, right.

[00:14:13] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Well that's why I'm here. You know what I mean? I'm like, this is, I know. I was like, uh, for sure. Commit pledge.

[00:14:19] Jane: I know. So not a condom will never forget. I know. Yeah.

[00:14:24] Dr. Nicole: Not a condom or a dental. Damn.

[00:14:26] Jane: No, no, never. It could never be that. 'cause that would be too, um, yeah. So they handed them out to us and I distinctly remember I was at sitting at my table.

Keep in mind by this point I have been reading like fan fiction on Wattpad, which is like very s muddy.

[00:14:46] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:14:46] Jane: Like basically stories written about bands and like the one direction one is the most famous. Right. Okay. Where it's like ya, novels, romance, like all the most ridiculous things. Yes. So I have been reading.

These books on my iPad, like into the early hours of the morning for a while now in middle school. So I and my friends all at my table have as well. And so I will never forget, all of us just got up and threw them in the trash. Like I, and I looked at our social studies teacher who did not endorse like this education.

Like he just had to let it happen in his classroom. 'cause he was told to, um, like he wasn't the one teaching us any of the material. And he like looked at us. He was like, hell yeah.

[00:15:31] Dr. Nicole: Huh.

[00:15:31] Jane: And I went home and told my mom and she was like, proud of you. Like that is 'cause it, it's so creepy. It is the creepiest premise.

It is such a creepy premise.

[00:15:39] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And as a therapist, right, thinking about trauma informed care, you have to know that there were people in that room who had already had sex. Right? Absolutely. Some of that essentially. Absolutely. Some of that. Non consensually. Right? And so the messaging that they give in that paradigm around that, it's so lacking trauma-informed care that it genuinely makes me concerned for the ethics of the people that are impacted by that.

I think it's a very delicate balance as a therapist, because we want to be culturally. Humble to different practices. And so like, how do I respect that practice and that being balanced with my understanding of trauma informed care. Right. And so if we're bringing in something like that that does not have a trauma informed understanding of, again, the fact that many people will have already had sex at that point, and some of that being especially non-consensual sex, like Right.

Huge problems. And so I think that's what the ethics of a therapist being between the lines of cultural humility and, and doing the best that we can for our clients and our community really comes to head in this very complex way. To which I say, uh, that's not ethical. That's where I stand. You know, that's where I'll put my, my mind flag, you know, in terms of saying like, yeah, no.

You know what I mean? I, I wanna respect, but no.

[00:17:03] Jane: Right. Absolutely. And I think something, as someone who I, my attention was always turned towards psychology. Mm-hmm. Like, especially when. Later on in high school and everything turning towards a career and thinking about college majors, I genuinely could not see myself doing anything else that would be even close to fulfilling.

But on that journey there, I think the journey towards being a sex and relationship therapist, a huge part of that was receiving all of this media and shame and all of the layers of guilt that we associate with sexuality that's handed to us on silver platters our entire life. But at the same time, seeing the resilience and thought that I had my friends, have my family, other people I associate with purely from the bravery to not just settle for the baseline of what's being told to you.

Yeah. Like the bravery to be curious and to, mm-hmm. And to know that you deserve to be confident in your pleasure like that. There's always such a. Disconnect there. Mm-hmm. Like when there's any kind of conversation surrounding limiting sexuality.

[00:18:24] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:25] Jane: And if you take the fulfillment and the curiosity of sexuality, then what else do you have?

Like, there's nothing like there, there's no humanity left of it. Yeah. Like, it's just like, what is the purpose of it at that point?

[00:18:37] Dr. Nicole: I mean, Handmaid's style procreation at that point, you know, that's what, hundred percent. You know? Yeah. Like, yeah, for sure. And so I, I'm, I'm thinking about in your story, the power of different systems, right?

When you are a student. There's a power dynamic with your teachers and the leaders there that you have to legally be in that space because, you know, America requires a certain level of education and it's easy to go through this format, right? And so here you are, where you're sitting down, someone else is standing up and they're telling you, right, thank God you had, thank the universe that you had other friends who also ly threw away the orange piece of paper.

Because that's where we get so much of our resilience, right. Is in community. Um, it's why I love having a podcast like this that is global, right? Because I know so many of my listeners have tuned in from areas like rural Idaho who don't have anybody, you know, who are here in this kind of consciousness.

And it's like, no, don't worry. There are, there are people around the world.

[00:19:35] Jane: Yeah. It's like, queen, we're here. We're here for you. We're here for you, queen.

[00:19:38] Dr. Nicole: Exactly.

[00:19:38] Jane: Yeah,

[00:19:39] Dr. Nicole: exactly. Exactly. And so, and we need that to feel empowered to throw away the orange piece of paper. Right? And so, metaphorically. In so many different areas of my life.

[00:19:50] Jane: Yes. I love that

[00:19:51] Dr. Nicole: Fat Cat is agreeing. Yes. Um,

[00:19:54] Jane: oh, adorable.

[00:19:55] Dr. Nicole: She will bite me. I gotta, I gotta be careful again. It's her house.

[00:19:59] Jane: She's looking sideways at ya.. Why is that? Yeah.

[00:20:00] Dr. Nicole: Her podcast. I'm just happy to be here. Hope you're happy to Fat Cat. Great. Um, um, and then also your parents, right? So when you come home and your parents were supportive of you Huge.

Where my parents bought me my purity ring, right. So I don't think I could've came home. To throw away the piece of paper for them because they wouldn't have accepted that. Right. So part of your resilience comes from you who you are as a being, as well as your parents, as well as the other classmates.

Right. And so it really changes that moment of what it means for you, whereas, oh, 100%. Yeah. If you came home and your mom was like, how dare you, why didn't you Right. You'd be facing a really significantly more complex situation, and I'm sure you've seen that in the clients that you work with and the clients I work with in terms of how hard that is.

Um, when parts of our expansive sexuality, expansive relationships are not met with the minimum of acceptance, I, I like to think encouragement. But the minimum of acceptance, it can be so hard for us.

[00:21:06] Jane: Right. And the freedom to reject without it leading to conflict.

[00:21:14] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:21:14] Jane: Like rejecting an ideal because. It doesn't serve you anymore, doesn't mean it's negative or that you're demanding.

It also has to get taken away from someone else, but especially within family dynamics within how we understand our relationship dynamics around us, and like you said, the environment. Like that's something that can make such a poignant difference and has to change to make a poignant difference a lot of the time.

[00:21:45] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:21:47] Jane: Which can be incredibly difficult when if someone is suffering or someone is

[00:21:52] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:21:52] Jane: Doesn't feel like they can look inwards and be curious about their identity without being bullied or ostracized, isolated anything that separation. He holds us back from so much.

[00:22:06] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. 'cause we're social beings.

We thrive in community. And from an evolutionary standpoint, it's how we survived. We were in groups, right? And so when you are ostracized, that is one of the most dangerous things. That's why, um, isolation is a form of torture for humans, right? Yeah. We will literally torture people by putting them into isolation.

And so,

[00:22:29] Jane: and it's an extremely effective

[00:22:31] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:22:32] Jane: Form of torture as well.

[00:22:33] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. And so when there are parts of ourself, this is what the feminist would call the relational paradox and psychology, if there are parts of ourselves that we fear bringing into the relationship because it could cause disconnection, that's the relational paradox.

That moment where you're like, wow, this authentic part, do I bring it in and fear the possible threat of disconnection? Or do I hold it back, which means I disconnect from myself? Ooh. Yeah. And of, of course, I think as a queer person, I'll, I'll add my own addendum into that of, of, of, or just like any marginalized identity that like, we're not truly cutting off from ourselves when we hold that back.

That is also an act of protection and empowerment and choice, because these environments are not always safe. But that like relational paradox right there can say so much. And they would say that our suffering comes from disconnection. So the more parts of yourself that you cannot authentically bring in, the more suffering that you have.

Right. And so,

[00:23:35] Jane: right,

[00:23:36] Dr. Nicole: if, if you are in a workplace where you can't be authentically queer, hopefully you have a group at home, a community, friends where you can be more of that authentic self because that can bring some of the balance under these systems right now.

[00:23:49] Jane: Right. And carving out those spaces for you where it is possible.

Like yeah. Whether it is online in person. Mm-hmm. However it can be manufactured. But it's so interesting that you mention. That relationship paradox feeling and just reality. Because something I, it made me think of something I discuss very often in the clinical setting and it can come up really about anything, but especially when discussing relationships and sexuality.

Uhhuh is that vulnerability a lot of the time feels very similar if not the same as embarrassment to us, like physically as we exist in our bodies. Like to me it is kind of parallels how anxiety and excitement can like shoulder one another. Sure.

[00:24:40] Dr. Nicole: Exactly.

[00:24:41] Jane: Yeah. And so talking about how we can hold ourselves back from being vulnerable with people because it's comfortable.

[00:24:49] Dr. Nicole: Right? Right.

[00:24:50] Jane: So we don't get that flutter of worry. That feels like, oh God, I'm about to embarrass myself really bad when in reality it's

[00:24:59] Dr. Nicole: right.

[00:25:00] Jane: Oh, I'm about to open myself up and turn towards this person in a way, right. That could make me so happy.

[00:25:08] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:25:08] Jane: But also could hurt me a lot.

[00:25:10] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:25:11] Jane: And that's what I'm afraid of.

[00:25:12] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:25:14] Jane: So it can be very similar to embarrassment, but it goes like a step in a different direction almost.

[00:25:20] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. And I think that's where it's about the container of who you're doing it with. Right? So when we think about therapy, I, ideally, therapy is this container where you're able to authentically express yourself and be held in positive regard, loving regard, reflection, challenging all of the good things.

But it's a container where you can be your authentic self and still be in connection. That's huge. Right? And so. In terms of sexuality, which so many people feel uncomfortable talking to their therapist about, which breaks my heart and it breaks my heart even more when I hear that people are uncomfortable to talk to their couples therapist about sexuality.

I'm like, what? Oh, the fuck are we doing here? But I get it, the systems, you know, so it's like, please talk to your therapist about sex or come work with a different one. You know what I mean? Like, whoa. Um, yeah,

[00:26:12] Jane: absolutely.

[00:26:13] Dr. Nicole: You know, if they're uncomfortable, find another one. You know, like we'll give you some resources.

Um, yeah. But, so in, in theory, right, that, that space that you're supposed to have, but for us who are all practicing this in our actual personal lives, right? It's really predicated upon your previous experiences with relationships, not just sex, but generally. Right. So if we look back to, you know, I'll use myself as an example.

If we look back into family dynamics, where if I expressed my no, I was told that I was being selfish, right from my mother. A woman is supposed to give, give, give, give, give. If I say no, I wanna do my own thing. No, Nicole, you're being selfish. That's wrong, right? Mm-hmm. So. That's from my own family dynamics coming back, very younger, young as I can begin, um, as I can remember.

And then also being taught that as a woman, it was my job to give my body to my husband, give my body not co-create pleasure, but to give and satisfy my husband. So you can see that language coming through. And so then when I'm first having sex with folks, I, for years, I don't think it was until my, like mid twenties that I could actually say no during sex in terms of, Hey, I wanna take a break.

Hey, my vulva is sore. Hey my vagina, I need more lube. Let's take a pause. Like, Hey, I need to pee. Hey, I'm just not feeling it anymore. No. Like that right moment of getting my voice out, you know, you can see how from the beginning of my upbringing, right? If I'm told that to do that makes me selfish. It trickles into that moment.

And then the next piece is who's holding that container with me? So if I had a, luckily I had a great partner, okay, but if I had a shitty part, well, that's not yours. Shitty. If I had a partner who is messy and still growing, they might look at me and say, no, Nicole, I want sex. Come on, put out, put out, put out.

And that's gonna be a really hard moment where I've brought that vulnerability and then I'm getting pushed into even more self negating. And so I've seen clients have that. We know people who do that on both, all types of genders. Luckily I had a lover who said, thank you. Thank you for telling me what you need.

Thank you for telling me how I can support you. Yes, absolutely. Let's stop. Let's pause. And that is the healing moment. 'cause we, we get hurt in relationships and we also heal in relationships. Right? So you can see that full circle moment from. My family upbringing, lovers, and then into this moment where a lover says it's okay, and then that starts a whole new path forward.

So I I, I say that to the listeners who are tuning in, who are like, I've tried to express my no and nothing happens. Part of me is, is curious like who are you saying it to? Because if you say it to someone who continues to pressure you, which is unethical and not, not okay in terms of consent frameworks, but there's so many people that do, right.

That is gonna be a hard space to find your known. That's not necessarily a reflection of you and your inability, but more so the context and the sentence setting that you're in for that moment.

[00:29:23] Jane: No, absolutely it is, especially when that vulnerability isn't comfortable being sat in for very long. Like, because of that like panic that can come up, especially based on what our previous relationship experiences are.

It is amazing. What, explaining to people what coercion Yeah. In a sexual situation looks like and how many people, myself included in my own like relationship history, like how often that is just viewed as the norm or just how like a hookup goes and it's the reality of the situation is that is nothing of the case, but it is something that defies any age of any client.

It defies age defies gender, like coercion in actually talking about it. We still have a lot of work to get done in like the giving people a heads up about that.

[00:30:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:26] Jane: On the way to sex education.

[00:30:28] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Because there's a lot of subtle ways that you can put pressure on people and dynamics and mm-hmm.

Um, so many people feel uncomfortable having a very direct conversation, which for me is one of my favorite things to say, like, Hey, like, we're going to a play party. What kind of scene do you want? It's almost like, it's just like tantalizing to start dreaming and fantasizing. You know? It's like when you're creating a delicious meal and you're like, what do we wanna make for the party?

You know, like you get excited, right? You're like the pie, the, this, the, that. You know, like, I guess you could just show up in the kitchen and throw some things together, but it's also nice to like plan and get excited about what you're baking, right? And so I, I, I do think that that almost is predicated upon generational, uh, experiences as well, where the further you go back in generation, because it wasn't until 1993 that it was illegal in all of the states for husbands to rape their wives because.

Prior to 1993, there were some states that still had women considered to be property. And so there was a complete ability to see your wife as an object that you could have sex with at any time. And that was completely acceptable. And again, so that wasn't outlawed until 1993. But looking at the last, you know, 30 plus years right here, and that I think is an important, I know it's a heavy fact to bring into the space, but a necessary fact to remind us of where we're at.

Oh, absolutely. Uh, in terms of this conversation. And so when you're working with people who are older, or dear listener, when you're thinking about your mom, when you're thinking about your grandmother or anyone of that lineage, you have to remember that they grew up in a world where. They were property.

And that was very normalized. Mm-hmm. And so this expectation of having to give your body to survive, let alone the fact that we couldn't have credit cards until the 1970s. Right. And so you really couldn't,

[00:32:27] Jane: I was literally just gonna say,

[00:32:28] Dr. Nicole: yeah, there you go. Exactly right. And so it's like you really couldn't live on your own, get your own bank account, all that sort of stuff until then.

And so we have to hold that as the context of what we're all unlearning and getting out of, especially if you're a woman or a femme. Like there is a long lineage of all of that. And so, yeah, the older you look back, the more you can see just like, uh, highly problematic sexual encounters. You look at movies from the eighties, from the nineties.

Oh yeah. It is cringeworthy in terms of stuff that they're doing there.

[00:33:02] Jane: Oh, absolutely. Especially just completely disrespecting. The word no.

[00:33:11] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:33:11] Jane: At any point possible.

[00:33:13] Dr. Nicole: And that being romantic.

[00:33:14] Jane: Yes. And like going outta the way to do so, going out of the way to show a woman at any opportunity, going out of their way to say, to show a woman saying, please, please leave me alone.

I do not like you. I am not attracted to you. You are bothering me. I am upset. I do not like you. Leave me alone. I will not date you. And then a guy saying, oh, Sweetums, you don't know what you're talking about. Like, that is so like way too much. For what? It's not funny. Like no one, I, was it funny then? I don't think so.

Oh.

[00:33:51] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. And so I think this is where our cultural conditioning is. It's such an important mm-hmm. Thing to talk about with this because, you know, sexuality, there's pieces to this that are innate and I wanna honor that, right? That absolutely. I wake up and from my young age of, um, middle schooler, I can re God, even elementary school, I can remember being attracted to women.

And that is something that is innate in me and a part of my story. And also, I think it's important to remember that our sexual desires, our relational desires, are also impacted by the culture that we live in. Right? A great example is ankles, right? Yes. Not erotic in our current context of No. The 2020s, you know, uh, however, back in the day when you were not allowed to show your ankles, like you could be in big trouble for being a whore if you showed your ankle.

Right. There was people getting arrested in Chicago for wearing bath bikinis back in the day because that was too scandalous. Right. Things that we adjust to over time. Right. And therefore have a different response to where now when I see an ankle, I don't get like ridiculously turned on in this like whoa way.

You know? Right,

[00:35:10] Jane: right.

[00:35:10] Dr. Nicole: Or even when we do multicultural research, we'll see how. Folks will be attracted to different body sizes, right? Mm-hmm. And so in, in areas where maybe there are more, um, diseases like malaria, that it can impact your body size and impact, your, your ability to live a fuller body is often associated with more health and therefore more attractive.

Where in America, we had the nineties and the skinny jeans and the, the thigh gap bullshit that like,

[00:35:38] Jane: I know

[00:35:38] Dr. Nicole: deeply impacted all of us, right?

[00:35:41] Jane: Yeah. Yeah. Beyond that as well, like how much we can even see the cycling of based on geographic location, but also I love like body image throughout history. Mm.

Like anything relating to that, I find it captivating to see how rapidly body cycles come in and out of fashion.

[00:36:04] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:36:05] Jane: In such a morbid fascination way. Because it is a map of expectations that have been. Actively used to belittle and put down for thousands of years. Absolutely. I just find it so interesting.

[00:36:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I mean, I think it's a really big indicator of the self in relation. Mm-hmm. So there is a self, there's a Jane, there's a me, Nicole, there's a you, dear listener who's chaining in right now. And the reality is our self is always in relation, right? Mm-hmm. So I am always interacting with my world, and that is forming my reality and who I am.

A great example of that is the fact that this language that I'm using to express myself comes from people who I do not know directly, but who have taught me how to speak, taught me what these words mean. Right? So just a pure example there, right? And so, mm-hmm. When we think about our sexuality and our desires as something that is in relationship with our culture, then yeah, ankles, body size, all of this sort of stuff.

And so I want to be able, as an educator in this space to walk the very thin line of honor. Someone's innate desires of this is what I'm actually attracted to, this is what I want, this is what feels good for me. And holding space for the very necessary curiosity and critical examination of what those things are.

Because we live in systems of oppression. And so we can't just go, ah, that's my innate desire. Don't, don't tread on my sexuality. You know, or whatever. It's like, it's like, hold on a second. We're in some fucked up system, so we need to make sure and examine how deep those systems go into that sexuality.

Yes. And that's tough work. It's uncomfortable work. And I'm always reminding listeners of the show is like, who said that dismantling systems of oppression is easy? It's not. Yeah. And it's also work we need to do. So. Welcome to the show.

[00:38:05] Jane: No, 100%. Especially what we, you were even mentioning earlier with like the intergenerational connection as well.

Yeah. I've been making just like Canva, PDF

[00:38:16] Dr. Nicole: cool

[00:38:17] Jane: handout things basically.

[00:38:19] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:38:19] Jane: Um, but for a family friend specifically surrounding like allyship. Mm-hmm. Um, like with the LGBTQIA plus in specific. Sure.

[00:38:31] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:38:31] Jane: Um, and even more specifically surrounding like gender pronouns, everything there.

[00:38:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:37] Jane: And my family and I, we talk a lot about like generations and how it shapes our view of the world and perspective.

And out on top of that, we also talk about. Almost like Adlerian psychology. Like the, like the family, um, constellation and everything. Yes. With like the birth order and stuff.

[00:38:55] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:38:56] Jane: Mostly as like jokes and everything, but

[00:38:57] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:38:58] Jane: It's interesting because I, especially while making these handouts have been doing everything I can to make it acutely approachable.

Coming from the perspective you were saying where it's a lot to hear from someone when you've been going about the world one way for 40, 50, 60, 70 years, understanding this world in a much more binary perspective, it's a lot out of the blue. If you piss someone off somehow, which is like warranted. Like if someone is okay to be pissed off, it's warranted to be frustrated that the world has changed and we've never had more access to more information ever.

It is so daunting for all of us. So when making these, I wanted to do everything I could to. Make it approachable and deconstruct the idea that mm-hmm. This generation understood it wrong the whole time. Yeah. I'm like, there's no wrongness happening here. Hmm. We just had a sliver of understanding and now we have a much larger picture.

So coming at it from, a lot of people probably don't know yet, even though to us like working, like being like in the field of advocacy and like wanting to make sure we're multiculturally competent. Like this could be something that to us we're like, yeah, I've known about that since my freshman year of undergrad.

[00:40:30] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:30] Jane: But the dude in the finance class, two buildings away. Yeah. He wasn't gonna learn that.

[00:40:36] Dr. Nicole: No.

[00:40:36] Jane: So if we can repair it while trying to foster this curiosity and like this interest because. People do like history, even though you could argue that we don't really wanna learn from it ever.

[00:40:48] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:40:49] Jane: People do like understanding a historical framework, whether or not they agree with it is a separate thought, but coming at it from, how can I encourage them to be curious first?

Yeah. Like exactly what you said is huge.

[00:41:04] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And that, I think that's why books like Sex at Dawn, I think have mm-hmm. So much pull within the community because people are looking for more facts. You know, give me history, give me another way to see this. Give me another lens. Right? And so that gives them some sort of tangible point where they're like, oh, okay.

And that's a lot of what my dissertation was on relationship anarchy, going back into the history of marriage, the history of romantic relationships and seeing, oh, this is actually a very. New concept. Wow. Okay. Yes. Right. And so, yeah, when I am in my sex education class, they're not giving me this perspective of, Hey, throughout history, human beings have done lots of different formations of types of relating.

And specifically most of it was not monogamous. But more recently, in this current context, we are, and here's the thing, but also outside of our white Western bullshit, there are actually cultures that do currently practice things that are way outside the boundaries of monogamy, or even the frame of non-monogamy.

'cause that's a boundary that's formed by the majority. Right? And so there are people around the world, currently today that practice different types of relational ways of being, and it's great. They're having a good time, they're thriving, right? And so it's just this, it's so problematic. Essentially. The question here is who's writing the history, right?

Because.

[00:42:31] Jane: Absolutely.

[00:42:31] Dr. Nicole: Many of the writers of the history were white men who have decided to throw away all the other lineages. Lineages where sexuality is spiritual and in deeply connected to that practice. Yeah. The lineages were women are empowered, right? Yes. The lineages were two-spirit non-binary, the whole thing.

Right. All of that gets thrown away through genocide and coloni, colonization and all those sorts of pieces to give you this very digestible, here's the story, here's all you need to know, and now go to work Monday through Friday and make us money. Thank you. Yeah. It's fucked. Exactly. It's crazy when you think about it.

[00:43:10] Jane: No, exactly. And even our obsession specifically in like more Western, but in the us mainly the obsession with hyper monitoring other people's sexual lives.

[00:43:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:43:25] Jane: And sexual interests. Of the day-to-day person, not the government officials, but of the day-to-day person. We need to very strictly police their sexual proclivities.

Of course, sarcasm. Yeah. Um,

[00:43:38] Dr. Nicole: for the transcript, who cannot hear the tone

[00:43:40] Jane: Yes. For the transcript, for the, for the listener That can't see me like squinting my eyes really hard, staring at the call, basically.

[00:43:45] Dr. Nicole: Exactly.

[00:43:47] Jane: But I have to wonder if any of it stems from the indi individualistic culture to begin.

[00:43:56] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:43:56] Jane: Like here, we're so hyper independent versus a more collectivistic culture. If I view, or if I'm in an individualistic culture, innately my perspective is going to be more self-serving. Mm-hmm. Because that comes with the property.

[00:44:14] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:15] Jane: So if I hear your sex life and what it's like for you and what you're interested in.

For some reason I am disturbed or confused or don't understand, or have been taught to react a certain way to that negatively. I could understand why it would be like more likely that we take it personally and then make it everyone else's problem.

[00:44:40] Dr. Nicole: Hmm.

[00:44:41] Jane: Whereas in a collectivistic culture, you're like, we're all just here for the good of the people.

We're all chilling, they're not disturbing anyone. We're fine.

[00:44:50] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:44:52] Jane: Explaining that in a very simplistic way with that not being a fully formed thought at all.

[00:44:57] Dr. Nicole: I mean, I I I'm picking up what you're hearing and what you're putting down. I think, I think it's a, an important thought. It's the reason why no wants to do group therapy, you know what I mean?

Like,

[00:45:05] Jane: oh

[00:45:06] Dr. Nicole: my gosh, gimme the one-on-one. I just wanna say right now, dear listener, that I run groups and I think they're one of the most powerful ways to transform, dare I say, more powerful than one-on-one, but as a whole other podcast. But it's because of this literal thing that you're hitting on right now, which is the Yes.

I love groups

[00:45:23] Jane: as well.

[00:45:24] Dr. Nicole: Me too. I love my groups that I run. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I I think we, we see how the more restricted you are in your own sexuality, the more that you want to police and control other people. Right. Because for your, for your own self, there's so many internalized rules and boundaries and things that are contracting you, contracting you, contracting you, contracting you.

Yeah. And so if you see someone else running without all of that, wait, without all of those boxes, you say, how the hell are you? Do you, you know, look at all these boxes I have. You must have all those boxes, or there's something wrong with you. Right. And so yes, it's, it's, it's almost this way of when you are so restricted and you see someone else with freedom, it comes from jealousy and fear of the unknown.

It's very. It's very evolutionary for us to be afraid of the other, of like, what is this unknown big box? Don't know what that is. Right. And so, yeah, if you come, you know, like myself, when I, when I was younger, I was the first person to condemn homosexuals. I like always talk about on the podcast how, uh, I was in college and I was in a Bible class.

'cause I went to a, a Christian college as well. Yay.

[00:46:38] Jane: Oh my gosh. I went to a Catholic ionist college.

[00:46:41] Dr. Nicole: Ah, so fun. Wasn't that great for us. Yes, it was so great.

[00:46:43] Jane: Great. So mine, mine actually was, I did have a good, like, mine was not, mine was University of Dayton.

[00:46:49] Dr. Nicole: Okay, got it.

[00:46:49] Jane: So it's not honestly, I have yet to be to a college campus where more heathen activities have happened.

[00:46:55] Dr. Nicole: Okay.

[00:46:57] Jane: It's good. So in that capacity, it was very low stakes. Good in terms of religious restriction, which was amazing.

[00:47:03] Dr. Nicole: I love that for you. That's beginning of your liberation journey.

[00:47:06] Jane: Exactly. Go fire, go Fires.

[00:47:09] Dr. Nicole: Um, and so I was in my, I was in my bible class and they had different topics and one of them was homosexuality.

And I chose that topic intentionally and I chose to argue why it is sin, which is crazy when you think about me in like early middle school, elementary school, having these desires, having a big crush on Meg from Hercules, having a crush on Megan Fox and Jennifer's body. And that scene with Amanda. Oh, of course.

Oh my God. Dying. Wow. Wow. Um, and so like,

[00:47:40] Jane: okay, so you're, you like burnett's them, come on.

[00:47:42] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I mean, I like them all. What can I say? I like them all. Beautiful. Um, and so it's wild because you think like, wow, okay, here, here I am clearly having these desires. Why in college am I the one to get up and say it's absolutely sin, right?

It's because I've gone through so much restriction during my education in Christianity that this is a sin. And so I have high levels of cognitive dissonance where anytime I have that thought, I'm like, wow, I'm sinning. Please God forgive me. Please God forgive me. I won't do it. And so I am putting so many boxes because of the society.

I'm around box, box, box, box, box, and I have to restrict so damn hard that if I see you moving out there with freedom, I'm like, how dare you? I have worked so hard to manipulate myself into this extremely small box, and you are not. Mm-hmm. Absolutely not. Right. And so you can see the rage that starts to come from the psyche when you've been restricted so much.

Yes. Um, it, it just, and

[00:48:43] Jane: that does make it feel so personal.

[00:48:46] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. 'cause you're like, I'm in the box. Why are you not in the box?

[00:48:50] Jane: Yes. I'm gonna yell at you, so then I bully you into getting in the box with me because it's lonely in here and this sucks. And I want you to be miserable too.

[00:49:00] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:01] Jane: Wow. I was talking about something so similar in session maybe a couple weeks ago, where we were talking about a relationship dynamic, specifically focusing on one partner being more free.

Hmm. Like more, more generally laid back and go with the flow and not as type A and planning everything out to like, whatever. And how the more laid back partner. Would frustrate the very not laid back partner a lot and that would be not necessarily a source of conflict, but make conflict a little bit closer to the surface.

[00:49:45] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:46] Jane: Than it would've been otherwise.

[00:49:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:48] Jane: Yeah. It's very interesting because it is in a way this like overcompensation, right? Where, okay, if I deep down am scared that I am bi or gay or like women, as someone who grows up in this very strictly Christian or Catholic framework, how can I make sure and massively make sure that no one suspects and no one can sniff me out?

[00:50:16] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:50:17] Jane: Like anything. Yeah.

[00:50:19] Dr. Nicole: It's exhausting.

[00:50:22] Jane: It is. Right. But it's so interesting. I love the way you described that though. Because it really just does paint such a spotlight onto why people behave that way.

[00:50:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And so I think I, I hold that as an opportunity to have compassion. Absolutely. For, for that person.

The person that you see yelling. Profusely to have compassion for them. And I don't say to turn the other cheek in the Jesus way. Right, right. I think that you do have to protect yourself under these systems. And so when we are being actively harmed when the state is causing violence against us, like some of the stuff I'm seeing now in Chicago with different groups of people, I'm not saying turn the other cheek in any capacity, um, but Right.

But does that give us a little bit more to go to bed at night when you see that person? Holding, holding that sign, you know, a little bit like, wow. They are psychologically going through so much cognitive dissonance and manipulation and propaganda that that's what they're in. Right? Yeah. For me, that makes me sleep a little bit better at night, but that's not where the story ends.

Uh, that's where we start more activism. We do more. Exactly. We don't necessarily immediately invite that person into our circles 'cause they're not safe. Right. Right now. Right, right. And transformative justice, the whole thing. Right. We got figuring all of that out. It's a long, long, complex conversation, but I think, at least in my own life, that that gives me some, some grounding and then from there, like you just the, the spectrum of things that you can grow into.

Right. When you were talking about vulnerability, uh, I had one supervisor who talked about sex being so vulnerable and for me. I had such a hard time hearing that word with where I'm at now. She's like, well, socks can be so vulnerable. And I was like, is it, I I, I don't think it's vulnerable. It's fucking empowering.

I am roaring up in there. I am growling. I am in my body. I am strong. I am empowered. What do you mean vulnerable? Like I am not a little, little dog over here crawling away, like ready to get kicked. I'm fucking on top. Like, what? You know, like, I, I don't like, so it's so interesting, like the different frames to what people have.

Yeah. And see that act. I mean, I can see how like, yes, inherently it is vulnerable. Like sleeping is vulnerable right when you're sleeping. Right. You are quite literally in a vulnerable place where a lion could come get you. And if you are having sex, yes that is a vulnerable space where the lion could come eat you.

However, like the frame to it all, I'm like, damn, I see this as empowering. Like a moment we can step into our power and and hold it, you know? So it's really fascinating the language around it.

[00:52:55] Jane: Totally. Or even a little bit differently. I've talked with and like experienced some moments of this within myself, but some people where like the vulnerability part of sex isn't really present.

Not necessarily because there's an overly positive like confidence or empowerment factor like you were, you were describing. But because they've become very comfortable with their capacity of sexual performance rather than focusing on their own pleasure.

[00:53:26] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Which could be way more vulnerable.

[00:53:30] Jane: Oh, totally.

Which. Go this kind of, when I'm saying that, I kind of mean it separate from the faking IT performance generally, even though that is absolutely a performance.

[00:53:42] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:53:42] Jane: Um, but even beyond that, a performance of like every time you have sex is for the other person. Like you are not having sex for yourself or for your own experience of pleasure because either you weren't in a position to be curious about it, you don't feel safe or comfortable enough in your body to explore your sexuality in that way.

Yeah. And et cetera. Like many other reasons. But I think that piece as well of why there could be a disconnect between kind of the external sexual self and my. Internal metric of pleasure and experience is because of that performative piece.

[00:54:24] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That's something that I'm always, uh, talking about in teaching in my pleasure, liberation sexuality groups, when we talk about that as being able to like differentiate between the external and the internal pleasure.

And I recently wrote a newsletter for my pleasure activist newsletter, and I titled it, uh. Spit Swallow Saver, which I thought, oh, you did, you saw it. Okay.

[00:54:54] Jane: I saw it and my eyes went big. I was like, Ooh, what's the swallow?

[00:54:56] Dr. Nicole: Ooh, what's this one about? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's literally, I think about that. I, I mean, I thought that was such a important piece.

So people are like always like, spit or swallow. I'm like, what about savoring this? What about, what about enjoying what, you know?

[00:55:10] Jane: Um, you're like, I bet you guys didn't think about that one, did you?

[00:55:12] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Did you, did you, hello? Hello? All the people subscribed. Hello. Um, and I think it's reminding me of what you're saying because.

The, in that newsletter I was talking about how so many of us have been socially conditioned to, specifically in this example, to suck cock and do it for the other person. Do it for the other person. And I was thinking about Betty Martin's wheel of Consent. Yes. And part of her wheel talks about, um, the ways that when you're giving it can also be for your own pleasure.

And so I think so many, yeah. So many of us, when we're, myself included, when we're giving, we're thinking, okay, how do I move my mouth and my tongue and my hand and my other hand? 'cause I like to get really deep in there in ways that help that person, help that person, help that person to feel good. Get them off, get them off, get them off.

Get them off. Right. Right. And so my brain is not thinking. Wow. How do I feel their shaft around my lips? How does that feel sliding down my own tongue? How do I actually make this feel good for me as well as them, right? And so it's a balance, but I think for the majority of us, it's been really lopsided where the thought is like, give, give, give, give, give.

And the reality is we can also give while receiving our own pleasure. Hence the newsletter. Hence what I was trying to hit there. And I think what you're speaking to is like so many people are focused on the external and there's still a way to give to others and also internally receive pleasure while you're doing it,

[00:56:46] Jane: right?

And this is not an original thought of mine. I read it somewhere. I can't, I wish I could remember where discussing it literally could have been you. Honestly. I'm like, hmm, I wonder. So let me know if it's, um, but the power dynamic that's present. Within, let's say within a heterosexual relationship, like mm-hmm.

Vulva owner, penis owner.

[00:57:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:57:11] Jane: And within that typical dynamic, the societal expectation, it would be for the vulva owner to be more in that giving of pleasure rather than expecting to receive pleasure.

[00:57:24] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:57:24] Jane: Um, typically, and we're flipping the script, we're working to flip it, and we're changing it every day, um, which is amen to that, but

[00:57:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly.

Amen. Lord's work.

[00:57:33] Jane: Lord's work. Yes. There we go. There we go. Truly doing the Lord's work. But the power dynamics present in that are typically associated with the penis owner having the power in that exchange. But in reality, thinking about the power that you hold as the person giving the pleasure in that moment, truly in my 24 years, never once has someone said that.

And said, did you ever think about the power you have?

[00:58:03] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. That was in the newsletter? Yeah.

[00:58:06] Jane: Yes. Okay. I knew it was you. I thought I was saying it. I was like, this was totally, I was like, no one's ever said that to me.

[00:58:13] Dr. Nicole: Oh

[00:58:13] Jane: wow. And I was like, I like, yeah.

[00:58:17] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:58:17] Jane: So that resonate, that landed like that very much gave, I love when, and I tell this to my clients in session too, when you have like one-liners in therapy that you're like, I ate with that one.

That one was so good. You're like, I know. I know. That one hit, that one hit so good. And they're like, that was good.

[00:58:33] Dr. Nicole: Amazing. And I have all respect to pay to the dominatrix that have been on the show. Oh yeah. Over the last five years. Uh, because. I didn't have that consciousness before. And they were like, no, Nicole, you are empowered.

Sit them down. And I was like, what? What do I do? What? You know? Like, like what? You know, like, just like she, and you're like, yes ma'am. Yes ma'am. Got it, got it, got it, got it, got it. Okay. You know what I mean? And so it's like, uh, I have all respect to pay to them for like opening those doors to me of seeing

[00:59:07] Jane: like a hundred percent.

[00:59:08] Dr. Nicole: You know, the, again, as we're saying, the narrative is like you suck cock to give to that person. You're, you know, blah, blah, blah, and

[00:59:15] Jane: that it's your obligation. Yes. This is how things work. You have to do this X, Y, Z.

[00:59:21] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:59:21] Jane: Meanwhile, it's like the penis owner is just showing up and leaving.

[00:59:26] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, think about the fact that you could bite that dick off at any point.

[00:59:30] Jane: Right.

[00:59:31] Dr. Nicole: Talk about the power, like are you like, okay, we're not gonna do that 'cause we love our people, but like, do they have the power you have right there? Like right there? They're very tender in your mouth. Let's be very clear.

[00:59:41] Jane: And it does like, it is cyclical to any kind of giving of, of pleasure. It is vulnerable just as much for the person giving, whether it's involving a penis or a vulva.

[00:59:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:53] Jane: Like whoever is the receiver of the pleasure is both experiencing a lot of positives in that moment and. Exercising so much trust.

[01:00:04] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And that's the transformation. Once you have that frame shift, you're able to go into the act, even though the act itself might be the same, right?

Right. You might be doing physically the exact same things, but the psychological frame shift is completely different. And as a therapist, like we know how important it is to have a frame shift, even if the outcome is the same, the frame of that, rather than I'm giving and I'm giving my power away to. No, I'm commanding this moment and I'm holding the power.

I'm holding the tenderness yes of the moment as I suck this cock. That is a huge frame shift, that then you hold more confidence in your body and you have more pleasure doing it. Right, and so

[01:00:48] Jane: right.

[01:00:48] Dr. Nicole: The mind is so powerful. We are powerful story making monkeys with souls and hearts and we, we will fight about the color of a towel inside a home and we will.

Say we won't have sex for a three letter word called God, right? Mm-hmm. And the stories and the meaning making and the sacredness around that is different across cultures, right? And so we are lacking, I would say in our current context, a empowered pleasure based narrative around sexuality, specifically for women femmes folks who do not conform to the gender binaries like we are lacking.

Yes, we're an empowered narratives, non-monogamous narratives of what it means to do that, which is why I find it such an honor to be able to create this space and honor to have people like you who come onto the show and honored to have people who are tuning in and the ways the newsletter is rippling through consciousness, the way the episodes are rippling through consciousness.

Because that's how we create real change, is it's not overnight. It's these small little steps where we now start to carry ourselves in completely different ways. And my favorite part about it is that. How you show up in a sexual dynamic reverberates through other areas of your life. Yes. When you come into that space, whether it's a dungeon, whether it's outside in nature, some of my favorite spots, whether it's in your own house, right?

When you show up at that confidence, you are gonna show up to that next meeting at work with a much bigger chest. As long as you work through all the shame that might. You might hold as you like space and code switch, which I hate that we have to live in that world. But you know, you still come in with more confidence of, I know how to ask for what I want.

I know how to command this moment and I know what I deserve. And that's where I find this work to be so deeply political. It's almost like a door into so much more politics where I'm like, oh, you're interested about sex? Yes. Come talk to me. Come, come, come, come. You know, like, right. What voice is that?

Like a witch? Like am I like inviting people into my house? I'm like, come, come.

[01:02:59] Jane: Yeah. Like maybe, I don't know.

[01:03:00] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, I know. I think so. Yeah.

[01:03:02] Jane: Yeah. No, it is mind boggling. Especially, and this is something that, I mean, anyone working in any kind of mental health field could tell you, but especially within sex and couples therapy and how stigmatized it is, people think it is something that, it really is not at all.

And same goes for therapy, largely in general, right? So like we can say that. Alone.

[01:03:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:03:28] Jane: But for me, I always tell clients even just to put at ease. 'cause I always want there to be a mutual sense of collaboration in agency Of course. Because I feel like people lose that understanding. Yeah. In therapy.

Yes. They forget that it's a collaborative experience that like you also are responsible for running the shit like it's a responsibility. But within the taboo surrounding couples, uh, sex therapy, I just wish people would understand how little, sometimes we actually talk about sex in the room.

[01:04:01] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah.

[01:04:02] Jane: Where it could be two and a half minutes of describing a sexual experience and then 48 minutes of talking about context ranging from childhood to work-life balance stress to religiosity, to insecurity. Past relationship dynamics, cycles of abuse cycle, like consent, we like anything. Yeah. Like it is truly how little we sometimes, sometimes we are gonna talk about sex a lot, but I always emphasize so much to clients, especially when we're first building rapport, number one, that I'm a perfect stranger and I am happy to help.

And we can do as shallow of a dive or as deep of a dive as we would like to go, but I'll go at their speed. Um, but especially when we're starting out and beyond that, that we really don't have to talk about the nitty gritty, like stop by, stop moment details of their sex life if they don't want to.

[01:05:02] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:04] Jane: And I think that's very shocking to people. Mm. Like they don't expect that.

[01:05:07] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:07] Jane: And I'm like, you want to fix or build insight or attempt to gain more knowledge in whatever area.

[01:05:17] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:05:17] Jane: That's great. But it just, it doesn't have to be. As intensive as I think as a lot of people think it has to look

[01:05:24] Dr. Nicole: right.

Yeah. I think it's nice to describe it as a spectrum, right? Where we could absolutely be getting into the nitty gritty, the specifics of what hole with what vibrator, with what thing, and how that created, gosh, even, even for myself, I know like, uh, I'm remembering a moment where like I was getting fucked from one of my partners with penis and then he was using like a dildo in my mouth.

And the idea of me potentially getting fucked by two penis holders at the same time just hit this moment where I shattered of all of the purity culture stuff. And I was like, oh my God, I'd be such a whore if I had two cocks and now at the same time, oh, and I just start crying, right? Like, yeah, like maybe we gotta get into the specifics of where you were being penetrated, why, what was happening.

It hits something.

[01:06:11] Jane: So there might be snafus along the way, like that's gonna happen too. And it's okay. Like, but we just, we have to be able to work through those and prepare ahead of time for those.

[01:06:21] Dr. Nicole: Right. And also maybe, like we said at the beginning, maybe we're processing from the very beginning how my mom called me selfish for having boundaries.

Right. And sex therapy, because that's actually the roots of it all. Or, and also like with all the stuff going on, we were talking about the protest that's going on for today, right?

[01:06:39] Jane: Yes, yes.

[01:06:39] Dr. Nicole: Sex is about play.

[01:06:42] Jane: Mm-hmm.

[01:06:43] Dr. Nicole: You cannot play when your world is on fire. You cannot play when your government is actively attacking you.

When your government is, act actively making it unsafe to have the identities that you have and the things you wanna do like, so when my clients come in and saying, I have no sexual desire right now. Yeah, that makes sense. Under these current systems, I too would not want to be playing under these current systems.

Right, right,

[01:07:10] Jane: right.

[01:07:10] Dr. Nicole: And so I, I think there, like, I, I appreciate what you're saying about sex therapy being more expansive, right? It's not always just like this, then that, then this, then that. We have to be able to understand that sexuality is, um, it's like a systems level perspective, right? There's multiple systems here that impact this.

And so when you're working with a sex therapist, you're gonna go into all these different areas, uh, and, and it's all a part of the process. And I love doing integration work. I, I do integration work with, um. Psychedelic assisted psychotherapy. And I also love doing integration work with scenes and people like myself.

That scene I had where there's a dildo and a partner and I'm like, shattered. You know, like, what does this mean anymore? I like, there's so much to integrate. I, I've had so many clients who were like, I had this scene last year and I still am processing what it means for me and my community and we can like walk through that.

Right? So it's like the full range of possibilities is here. And I, and I, what I appreciate about sex therapy is it opens the door into a, a world where so many people do feel so uncomfortable. And, and hopefully through that, that act of talking to someone like you or talking to someone like me, every time you do that, you're building your capacity through exposure therapy to be able to name your experience.

Right? And that I can confidently say leads to more pleasure. The more you flex that muscle of speaking what you want, what you need, what happened to you, that leads to more pleasure.

[01:08:36] Jane: Right? Could not agree more with everything you just said. On top of that, so much of what I am discussing with people day in and day out has to deal with either grief or safety.

[01:08:49] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:50] Jane: In some capacity.

[01:08:51] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:08:52] Jane: So just like you were saying, if the world around us is imploding and hate speech is flying around everywhere and everything feels so incredibly suffocating, of course that's going to affect your desire because that's affecting the safety of your reality. And even more so your mental landscape.

[01:09:19] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:09:20] Jane: When we think about how much of sexuality and of our sexual experience is happening in our head, but we aren't socialized to understand that part about ourselves, we're not socialized to be kind to that part of ourselves.

[01:09:35] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:09:36] Jane: And then talking about safety and processing. What is required or what is in our control to make our environment feel safe?

It really is. Yeah. It's incredibly difficult. It's very frustrating because it's focusing on what you can make your frame of reality, like what can you control in your day-to-day life that will make things a little bit easier for you to wake up tomorrow?

[01:10:02] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:10:02] Jane: A little bit easier for you to run up and give your partner a kiss on the back of the neck when they're making dinner, just because

[01:10:09] Dr. Nicole: Yeah,

[01:10:09] Jane: absolutely.

Like what'll make it more likely for you to turn towards your partner when, rather than like snap at them when you're pissed off or something.

[01:10:16] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:10:17] Jane: And with grief, additionally, like talking, I talked so much about grieving not only like past relationships, but like past identities of the cell. Mm.

[01:10:28] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah.

I was a different woman after that scene I'm telling you about, you know?

[01:10:32] Jane: Oh yeah. Yeah.

[01:10:33] Dr. Nicole: Oh, different woman.

[01:10:34] Jane: Yes. It's so important too. It's so important because. We especially, and again, like Western culture, us the whole thing. But we aren't very good with change. We suck with change and we suck with grief.

And I think they're very interlinked. So like we are Oh yeah. Socialized to responsibly handle grief a lot of the time. And we're told to just turn towards religion and spirituality, which can be wonderful and peaceful and reparative, but that's not always reparative for the day to day ins and outs of the experience of grief.

[01:11:10] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's connected capitalism. It's, uh, grief is not a productive emotion under capitalism. Yeah. And so it's highly connected. And one of my favorite things I always say on the podcast is that I cry hard. I come hard. And those two things are absolutely connected, right? There we go.

It's about being able to feel in your body and to be able to release in your body and to be able to have both of those. Mm-hmm. And the, the reality is that no matter what emotions we're talking about, you can't pick and choose which ones you feel. So if you want to feel more pleasure, you're gonna feel more pain.

So welcome to the human existence, giving you a hug. Love you, dear listener. Hello. Welcome to the Journey. But that is what it is. Becoming a pleasure activist means you're gonna cry a lot more. Right? So you, gosh, you have to be able to sense, you have to be able to feel, and I think it's so important too with these current contexts where there is so much going on that's outside of your control, as you said, like focusing on what is within your control, showing up at that protest, being able to have these moments.

And also, you know, there's top down processing in terms of the brain impacting the body, right? So from like the top, the brain to the body down. Although it's all the body, but that's figuratively how we talk about it in the field, right? There's also bottom up processing, essentially focusing on the body to help the mind.

And I'm always reminded of the earlier research on hysteria, which I have lots of thoughts about as a feminist psychotherapist. So we don't even have to get into that, but back in the day, I'm like, we could talk about, oh, week could chat next episode. No, no. Yes. Um, but back in the day, vibrators were created as a tool to treat hysteria, and so they would bring people with vulvas to climax, to treat hysteria, right?

A lot has changed in the history since that time, but there are also ways of, I'm not saying you have to do this, but an invitation where sometimes under these systems, I have no sexual desire. I look at the news, I look at all the stuff happening, and I'm like. Fuck. And also I can sit down if this is an empowering moment, I can sit down and say, I have this vibrator.

I am going to use this right now to bring myself some joy and pleasure so that way I can get back into living my life and the activism work that I do. And I, I say that because it's not always, I think sometimes people are waiting for a desire. They're waiting for that moment. They're waiting to feel, which makes me think a lot of Emily NGO's new book of come together and, and rather than waiting for the desire, just actually doing the act and feeling the pleasure of it, right.

Because sometimes we get so locked in, like waiting to want the ice cream. Why don't you just go buy the ice cream and trust that when you take the bite you'll want it. You know what I mean? Right, right. And if you don't, you can throw it away. So like, you know, like. I, I say that as like, as someone who's living in these systems as much as you are, and all of us, your listeners of days where I just feel like I have zero sex drive because the system is so fucked up and I can still sit down and create a time for myself to really take care of myself with a vibrator, putting it there and creating that experience of endorphins in my body so that I can feel good again.

[01:14:24] Jane: Yeah.

[01:14:24] Dr. Nicole: And sometimes I don't, sometimes I don't come. We just put it to the set. And that was great too. But like, there is ways to do bottom up processing too, right? And so I wanna invite all the listeners to know, like, there's that moment where you can choose to do that and not just wait for the desire, which might be really tricky under these current political systems.

And also, of course, you don't have to do that at all, right? There's, there's this space and opening. It's a, it's an offering to take what resonates with you and leave the rest always in this space, you know?

[01:14:52] Jane: Hundred percent. And I think an ongoing conversation that I've been seeing a lot, like online, social media, what have you, especially when like with this broader conversation of, hey, so tyranny seems like it's here, y'all and I have to go to my nine to five because it's such a common emotion, it's such a cohesive feeling that all of us have right now, um, or many of us have, should I say, or honestly at the very least, knowing that something is unsettled and wrong with how things are going in whatever direction, what have you.

But like it's distracting. But I have found pieces of empowerment in, well, is it not just the most massive fuck you to in the face of this disgusting and deplorable. Environment that has been curated by these terrible people wanting to do no nothing but harm. Is it not such an ultimate act of rebellion?

To maintain joy where I can and to find pleasure where I can and to manufacture that for myself to go out of my way to make some damn time, even though I have none of it, none of us do. None of us have the capacity for anything that's not already on our plate. But would it not be just even a little bit more of a fuck you to give this gift to myself right now?

[01:16:24] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And there's a long line of lineage of, of queer liberation with that Right. Of stepping into joy. Oh, absolutely. Right. Yeah. Of like, yeah.

[01:16:34] Jane: Queer people bipoc absolutely. Like, like these are like echoes of experiences that mm-hmm. People that do not look like e or us have been telling the stories of for a very long time.

For the listener to white women. Yep. But like, learning from and lifting up the experience here is something that we have the privilege to take action on, and in whatever capacity that action can be taken. If you can't be in person at a protest for whatever reason, doing what makes you feel fulfilled.

[01:17:06] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:17:08] Jane: In getting creative with it. Even just drawing out a sign or something, like doing something that makes you feel included and empowered.

[01:17:16] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. There are many ways, many ways, and we all have our threads of the tapestry to pull, right? And so,

[01:17:22] Jane: yes, absolutely.

[01:17:23] Dr. Nicole: Trusting that you'll find your, your thread and pull it, find that, and whatever it is, you know, being conscious of where our money goes, being conscious of what we're spending our time and energy on, right?

Like all of that really does dismantle the system very slowly, as much as I wanna light it on fire. But, uh, very slowly we are doing that work, right? Yeah. And so, yeah. It's been such a joy to have you on the podcast today, Jane. Such a joy.

[01:17:48] Jane: Yes. I, I feel like this flew by. I Oh, that's a good side.

[01:17:52] Dr. Nicole: That's a good side.

[01:17:54] Jane: I'm so overjoyed that I got to talk to you and just so happy to be on. So, yeah. Thank you so much.

[01:17:59] Dr. Nicole: It was such a joy. Such a joy. People have always asked me like, how did you do this while grad school? And I would say, well, the things that, um, are authentically joyful to you, bring you so much energy, right?

You have a conversation that flies by and you're like, whoa, okay. Right? And so in inviting all of us as much as possible to find those things and trust in those things. And so as we're closing out together, I'll take a deep breath with you

and I'll check in and see if there's anything else you wanna share with the listeners. Otherwise, I have a closing question I can ask you.

[01:18:38] Jane: Hmm. No, but I think I'm good.

[01:18:40] Dr. Nicole: Okay. Okay, great. Well then the last question that I ask all my guests on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:18:55] Jane: I think I have to say arousal, non concordance, the understanding of it. I feel like the only normalized piece of it in sexual experience is like a whiskey dick.

[01:19:08] Dr. Nicole: Hmm. Sure.

Molly dick.

[01:19:10] Jane: Or like Yeah, like when you're, or just like when you're too drunk, whatever and can't get turned on. But the reality of what arousal non concordance means, and like that mind body connection.

Exactly what you were describing earlier, but it was something that I didn't have a term to describe and even just hearing about. Because like within my friend groups, I like it did not like lose my virginity until like a little bit later on, which was fine.

[01:19:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:19:41] Jane: Like hearing about everyone's sexual experiences, I was always confused as to why there was a disconnect between when someone wanted to be turned on versus when their body couldn't, or like frustrations with that.

Especially with like all being young women and Volvo owners, everything like that. It was something that was very confusing to me and something that would get pinned and blamed on the person that wasn't feeling sexually responsive or could not have that experience in that moment for whatever reason.

So just the pure validation that I experienced knowing that

[01:20:17] Dr. Nicole: yeah,

[01:20:18] Jane: a trauma history surrounding like relationship and sexual trauma was not in my history.

[01:20:24] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[01:20:25] Jane: So knowing how deeply affected I was by that and knowing that terminology. Knowing that my depth of experience was incredibly shallow here, it's something that I wanted to spring from the rooftops, like, and Dr.

Emily Dki. Like for TED talk, like when I was in college, I worked for a peer educator organization. Mm-hmm. Um, it's called pave. It's at, it's at University of Dayton. It's lovely. Mm-hmm. Um, it's peers advocating for violence education. And we did like consent cultures. We did domestic violence, like just trainings for students, for student athletes.

For teachers. Mm-hmm. Basically anything with what relationship violence would look like and sex education on college campuses.

[01:21:06] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Which

[01:21:06] Jane: was really amazing.

[01:21:07] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:21:08] Jane: So I found out about like, come as you are and everything from that, but I didn't know that it was a term arousal non concordance. Yeah.

Until my junior year of college.

[01:21:17] Dr. Nicole: Dang.

[01:21:17] Jane: And I was like, this is crazy. Like, this is such a powerful term. Yeah. And I told every one of my life about it and they were like, oh, that makes perfect sense. That sometimes. Even if everything is lined up perfectly or if things are going wrong, like just the reality that your body can respond in a way you don't expect it to.

Mm-hmm. And that it's not anyone's fault.

[01:21:39] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely.

[01:21:40] Jane: Is something so powerful that should absolutely be normalized me.

[01:21:43] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Yes. So very needed. So very needed. Yeah. I can respond more or less than what you've wanted or desired in that moment. And, uh, just wait till you get my newsletter on lube. That's, that's one definitely.

It's, it's come before you. It's coming.

[01:21:59] Jane: There we go. Okay. Can't, can't wait.

[01:22:01] Dr. Nicole: It's all about that, right? Of like forgetting the, at least, uh, for, for the, the thought that like, we should be wet all the time. Like, and then there are moments where you're not, and, and this is a whole other podcast that we could go into, which is, um.

Habitation in long-term relationships. Right. And where it gets much harder to get wet in long-term relationships because of habituation. And to clarify, not a lack of love. Often we have significant, no, not at all, significant love in those relationships, but because of, um, habituating to a stimulus, there is lack of response in the body, right?

And so that can be so frustrating, as you're saying, of like, I have this desire to have sex. I want to connect to my partner, and why is my body not wet? Right? Which to, I say, that happens habitation. Throw lots of lube on there. Let's have fun. Right? You know, and like forgetting all the stigma and the whatever, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, about lube, right?

And so,

[01:23:00] Jane: right.

[01:23:01] Dr. Nicole: A long life ahead of career here and pleasure, activism.

[01:23:07] Jane: Oh, I'm so, yeah. I, yeah. I'm just so excited to keep things going. Yes. And I have loved learning from you and learning from your work. You, it's been such an incredible thing,

[01:23:18] Dr. Nicole: such a joy.

[01:23:19] Jane: Thank, I've recommended your podcast to clients. I like, truly, you're just such an incredible resource and especially being in this field and like being such a fan of this world for so long.

And yeah. It, there's something so gratifying to me about like starting my program a couple years ago. I would be over the moon to be working where I am now and like being, speaking with you and everything. Yeah. Um. Congratulations. I could not. Congratulations. You made it. Yeah. So I'm, I'm just very, very excited to keep things going and I cannot thank people like you more, more for that because you, you, you laid the groundwork, you've done the whole damn thing.

Like you're still doing it.

[01:24:03] Dr. Nicole: Ah. Thank you so much for that. Thank you so much for that. It's been such a joy to lay this groundwork and there's been times of tears and and scared as I went through. The programs that I went through, my, which I'm sure you can understand, are not always supportive, and so it feels really good to be on the other side with the doctorate as a bit of protection to keep going into more like radical and radical and radical areas and be like, Hey guys, I graduated top of my class, try and come after me.

I got a 4.0. What can you say? You know what I mean? Yeah.

[01:24:35] Jane: Please.

[01:24:36] Dr. Nicole: I love that, that I did that for myself and that I've been able to then share that with you and then that you trust me to come onto the show and have vulnerable conversations like this or sharing it with your clients because this is work that we do together.

Right? And so I, I couldn't do any of this. Work without people like you who trust me, people like you who are sending this to your clients, listeners like you who are tuning in and sending this to your community. Like it is a community effort that we're doing here. And 100%, yeah. I hope that the day that I, I die, that there's been a serious dent made in on rape culture and a serious shift in how we look at our relationships.

And I, I will die happy with that. And so I'm, I'm grateful every day that I get to continue to work towards that, that life dream here with people like you. Yes.

[01:25:21] Jane: Oh, yay. Thank you.

[01:25:22] Dr. Nicole: Of course, of course. Well, Jane, I'm sure everyone is dying to know, to know where can they find you? Where can they connect with you?

Plug away all of your resources and how people can find you to work with you.

[01:25:35] Jane: Yeah. So I think, yeah, psychology Today is a great place to find me. Um, that's just Jane Downey. I do have a LinkedIn, so that's Jane Downey as well. And yeah, I am a LPC based in person and online. I'm licensed in the state of Ohio and I'm located at Integrated Heart Therapy Center in Mason, Ohio, which is just outside of Cincinnati.

[01:25:59] Dr. Nicole: Beautiful. Awesome. Well, I'll have all that linked in the show notes below so people can find your content. And again, thank you Jane for coming onto the show today.

[01:26:07] Jane: Oh, and we have an Instagram, it's AB Integrated Hearts therapy Center, so very easy. We do have an Instagram and I do all the social media or a lot of like majority of the social media marketing.

[01:26:17] Dr. Nicole: So cool. Awesome. I'll have all that linked in the show that's below, so that listeners can go straight into there and find all of your content. So again, thank you, Jane. Thank you for coming onto the podcast today.

[01:26:29] Jane: Yes, thank you so much. It was so lovely.

[01:26:31] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. So dear listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Modern Anarchy. Thank you for sharing this episode with your friends, with your lovers, with your community. Truly, it means so much to me and I am so grateful that you are here. If you are wanting to release jealousy in your nonmonogamous dynamics and step into a compersion and pleasure filled connection, you can read my book, the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide for free on my website.

There you'll also find so many other free resources, including worksheets on how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non-monogamous dynamics and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure filled sex and relationships.

So head on over to modern Anarchy podcast.com. To find all of those free resources, and I look forward to seeing you next week.