260. The Collective Power of Queer, BDSM, and Non-Monogamous Communities with Liam Wignall

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole. On today's episode, we have Liam join us for a conversation about the transformative power of community. Together we talk about an evolutionary perspective on non-monogamy. What happens when you see your therapist at a dungeon and the ethics of privacy versus transparency in non-monogamy? Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.

I am so delighted to have all of you. Pleasure activists from around the world. Tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, author of the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and founder of the Pleasure Practice, where I support people in crafting pleasurable sex lives and non-monogamous relationships.

Dear. Listener. Ooh, this is a good episode. This is a good episode. I love getting to nerd out on the power of queer BDSM and non-monogamous communities because we have a lot of wisdom. We have a lot of wisdom about what it means to build community. We have a lot of wisdom around consent, and we have a lot of political activism, energy that I am so, so passionate about being in collaboration with, with the guests on the show.

The people that are in my programs that are doing the work with me in my 16 week programs, y'all are some of the most amazing pleasure activists I have ever met that inspire me so much so, and it is such a joy, truly, to do this work. And you know, it's important to remember that. Gosh. Yeah, homosexuality was in the DSM, y'all, if you are not familiar with the DSM, that is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Psychological Disorders.

This is what the field of psychology and psychiatry uses. And it was not that long ago that homosexuality was in there. And so I know all of you know, to challenge these systems, but just a reminder, even the mental healthcare systems, if there's any question in your mind about what needs to be challenged, it's that too.

It is. That too. I know some of you are probably like, yeah, Nicole, like we know. We know those systems are also fucked up, but like I'm just putting it out here again to remember that. Yeah. Very recently homosexuality was in there and it is. So important that we continue to challenge these systems and really step out into these conversations in vulnerable and visible ways, because these are the conversations that we all need to have building skills, truly in terms of language of how to talk about our sexual pleasure, and it is such.

Such a joy to be in this space and making these episodes for you, dear listener each week. So thank you for joining me here, and thank you for sharing all of this educational wisdom with your community, your lovers, and your friends. Alright, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and free resources@modernanarchypodcast.com, linked in the show notes below.

And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all my Patreon members, you are supporting the long-term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible to all people. So thank you. And with that dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love and let's tune into today's episode,

dear listener. There's a space already waiting for you where you are invited to let go of every old script about sex and relationships, and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure, empowerment, and deep alignment. I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real trans. Formation possible. And I'll be right there with you. Guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure and visit modern anarchy podcast.com/pleasure practice to apply.

And the first question that I like to ask each guest on the show is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:05:28] Liam: Um, I would just say I'm Liam. And in terms of like the additional fluff in terms of like who I am and more about. Yeah, I think that all just. That generally comes naturally. But for the purpose of the introduction, I'm Liam.

I'm a senior lecturer in psychology, um, in the UK at the University of Brighton. And I'm an academic who focuses on sex research in general, specializing in BDSM, kink and digital technologies.

[00:05:57] Dr. Nicole: Amazing. You're in the right place for sure. And it was also really exciting and you were a nomination from a relationship anarchist that I had on the show who had recommended that I reach out to you.

So I love these moments where it's community referrals through referrals, through referrals. That was how I started the show, truly as each guest who came on nominated who I went to next. And so. Been following that thread for five years.

[00:06:25] Liam: And I think that's kind of so important. 'cause it feels like you are speaking to a community of people who are like-minded and have similar views.

[00:06:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:34] Liam: Um, it, it creates that kind of nice conversational experience.

[00:06:39] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So thank you for saying yes and coming onto the show today.

[00:06:44] Liam: You're very welcome.

[00:06:45] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Well, one of the first places I love to start every episode is taking a moment to really dive into your personal connection to this topic.

And so I'd be curious for you, how did you become passionate about sexuality and BDSM and the online spaces? What lit that fire for your passion?

[00:07:05] Liam: It was kind of pure in my adolescence growing up as a sexual minority in a world where the internet was really just starting to flourish. Mm-hmm. Um, and, you know, I had my first computer.

Like 13, 14, I think. And it was one of those huge ones that took up a big space in the room. It was the computer room or computer area, Uhhuh. Um, so I always kind of experienced in my adolescence and the key formative years alongside changing digital technologies. Um, so when I was. Sort of 15, 16, 17, experiencing my, my sexuality, um, as a sexual minority and navigating the world and realizing, oh, I don't fit in and the information I'm getting given is all presumed heterosexuality.

Yeah. Like we, we still exist in a heteronormative world. And that assumption. So I had this kind of personal connection to always wanting to find out more about myself and about sex in general. Fast forward, I started to, or I did a psychology degree towards the end of my degree, there were opportunities to explore topics related to sex and sexuality from an evolutionary psych perspective.

[00:08:29] Dr. Nicole: Fascinating.

[00:08:30] Liam: And one of the things I argued was the benefits of consensual non-monogamy from an evolutionary perspective.

[00:08:38] Dr. Nicole: I love that.

[00:08:38] Liam: And it's just so counter to evolutionary psychology and my, oh. That's who marked my essay, which just like, I, I struggled to agree with this, but you are not wrong. Like, it doesn't, you know, you are argue with good points.

Yeah. So then I was like, okay, I've got a, like a, I've got knowledge and insights on this.

[00:08:59] Dr. Nicole: Can we pause there? I, I totally wanna talk about that for sure. Because, you know, as someone with ovaries, you would think right, that if I had a bunch of different sperm, the best sperm would win out, right?

Evolutionarily, I should want lots of different sperm inside of me. The strongest one is gonna make it to the ovary and of course the ovary also. Um, or make it to the egg, right? And the egg also moves and envelops. The sperms. We don't have to tell that whole, like, patriarchal bullshit about like the a uh, the sperm being the only thing that moves and the egg just sits back.

Mm. For the listener who doesn't know about that, right? Like that's an important reframing of the, the science. Um, which is also maybe an important point to talk about is that the science, it's there, but we're always, um, we're always learning more and we always have narratives to it, right? And so for a long time, dear listener, if you were not aware of this, the, the lingo around this was that the egg is docile and just sits back and the manly sperm goes all the way through and makes it and penetrates and is so strong and the egg is just sitting back in docile.

And more contemporary sciences realize that's actually not the case, right? The egg plays an essential point of really like really moving towards sending all the hormones and then enveloping the sperm, right? And so moments like that where we have to be conscious of the science was really lacking in the narratives.

And so I think evolutionary is another huge one where they were like. Oh, you know, survival of the spit is you want this mate, you wanna pass down your lineage, you're gonna pick one, blah, blah, blah. Mm-hmm. But from a genetics perspective, wouldn't we think like, again, more sperm means I'm gonna get the best sperm.

And also if any of those people think that it's their child, now I have multiple, potentially willing to take care of me because we can't determine the paternity. So now I've got this group, this group of sperm donors who are willing to take care of me. 'cause they can't tell.

[00:10:53] Liam: Yeah.

[00:10:53] Dr. Nicole: I don't know. Yeah. So tell me your, tell me your work.

I'm, I'm curious,

[00:10:57] Liam: well, with that, like, and this is from like an undergraduate psych student who was Sure, yeah. Trying to kind of piece things together that weren't meant to be pieced together on a good path. I think some of my, I think some of my arguments were around thinking about a, a poly household.

Yes. Um, or kind of. The creation relationship, an anarchy, and thinking about kind of chosen families if there are multiple resource incomes. Yeah. Um, sharing responsibilities from a biological perspective, if your children are in this household, they're gonna have stronger relationships in terms of attachment styles.

They're gonna have more opportunities in terms of access to resources and, you know, touch what it didn't happen. But if somebody in the, in the family structure kind of passed away, there would be then more support to look after the child. Yeah. Um, so I kind of, I argued, you know, the benefits of, I think more so kind of polyamory, but like touched on open relationships for the idea of the importance of sex for, for different people and healthy sex.

Yeah. And people having sex that they enjoy that actually. Yeah. Maybe a, a relationship and a couple could focus more on the procreation and get re recreational sex elsewhere. I can't remember exactly what I said, but um, I got good marks for it. But then what you spoke about in terms of the, the science not catching up, I was still there in evolutionary psychology.

I'm reading about myself and my rationale for as a sexual minority existing was the gay onca hypothesis. Oh, was the idea sick passed upon? Yeah. And it was just like, oh, well, I mean, I am a gay uncle, but, you know, is there more to my existence from an evolutionary site perspective than like helping raise my nieces and nephews?

Um, yeah, it was, I have, I have mixed feelings. I think a lot of Evo Evo psych makes sense and then a lot of it just doesn't, in terms of like, keeping up with Yeah. Contemporary society, contemporary relationship understandings.

[00:12:59] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. It makes me sick. It makes me sick. Genuinely. I, um. For the clinical psychology pathway in the United States.

I'm not sure how it's, it is in the uk 'cause I know it's different in every country. You have to get your doctorate, which I did that part. But now I need to study, I need to get a certain number of hours for my postdoc and then take an exam called the E Triple P. It's a whole licensure exam. Anyhow, my, one of my supervisors gave me this like, huge deck of flashcards to study with.

The listeners can't see. It's, it's bigger than my face, you know, it's, it's, it's pretty sizable. And so I had a moment where I was like, okay, I'm gonna shuffle these cards and I'm gonna pull one out, like a tarot deck, just as like an, an invitation to what I'm about to study for this stupid ass test. And the first card that I pulled out said, provide a evolutionary based perspective on gold diggers.

That was my first card.

[00:13:56] Liam: Wow.

[00:13:57] Dr. Nicole: To which I flipped to the back. And you know what it said? It said women. First off, because apparently only women can be gold diggers. Let's just start with that first word. You know, like, like, it's not like, it could be like all genders, which is like what the, okay. So women have learned that they can sell their bodies by, and therefore get more access to privileges.

And it said also use the hedonic treadmill as a frame. And so it said, women know they can sell their bodies to male partners to get more access to privilege and then get really used to that lifestyle and then want more and more pleasure. And that was the answer. And it made me sick. The fact that, again, we're only talking about women and there's no level of structural conversation about capitalism and how women have been, you know, uh, kept away from access to fair labor and blah blah, like.

I just started crying. I was like, you're telling I'm gonna spend all these hours studying for this, where I'm gonna get into a test room and I have to answer a question that I don't even fundamentally believe with the answer, but to get a license under this system, I gotta keep playing this game. So then I started going through it and looking at all the different things around sexuality, and I pull out one card that's like, what is the, the current theories on queer relationships.

Me as a queer person, I'm starting, oh, fucking curious about what this card has to say. And it says, current research shows that most people explore hetero, um, different sort of queer dynamics and then come back to heterosexuality. And it's just an exploratory phase.

[00:15:26] Liam: Wow.

[00:15:29] Dr. Nicole: I wanna burn those cards. You know, if I gotta, if I got, if I wanna play the game and get my license, I gotta do it.

But like, damn, like how am I gonna answer that on an exam?

[00:15:40] Liam: And I do. Yeah, it is. It's difficult going up against kind of such a huge, powerful monolith as kind of individual queer people. Um, and you know, it's why kind of, there's so much power in queer families and queer unity. I absolutely kind of have that same mindset when I'm doing my teaching that, um, when I'm teaching on sexual orientation development or pornography or, um, digital technologies or that kind of stuff, like, and other kind of subtext I teach at the University of Brighton, which has a very queer, liberal, great, uh, university cohort because the city is kind of very queer and liberal.

Love that. Um, so kind of whatever I kind of teach and, and look, these are the main articles on the topic or the main theories. Now let's actually apply them to or beyond, um, a gender binary or a, a heteronormative kind of ideal. So yeah, kind of nine times out of 10 it will be, here's the slide. I, now here's Liam's interpretation of it that is, is needed.

So, you know, I imagine when you're kind of doing those answers in an exam, it's, well, this is what the answer says. I don't agree with it, but this is the card that you want me to remember in the rehearsed answer. It's, yeah, it's crazy.

[00:16:55] Dr. Nicole: Uh, the listeners can't see my face. I'm just jaw dropped. Yeah, absolutely.

My, one of my mentors used to say that, you gotta hail to Caesar. And just get your union card and then get the hell out of that place. And I'm like, got it. Yes. Right. Right. All queer relationships are just experimental. Got it. Check. Got that answer right. Here's my license so that I can help people get out of this paradigm.

Like fascinating. Right. And so I, I am so grateful that your, your younger self is already pushing the edge there. Right. And I'm also grateful that your professor or whoever was grading that didn't take that as a moment to fail you. Mm-hmm. There are some professors who would've absolutely been like, this is completely wrong.

Like, I appreciate that they were able to take that moment and step back and say, it's maybe not right for me. But you have a sound argument here because, yeah. I remember one of my professors, she really specialized and was like a leader in EFT emotion focus therapy. And she gave me this whole paradigm on couples work, couples work, couples work, couples work.

And I said, what if we expanded this to Poly Qs and other sorts of frameworks and a bit more expansive dynamics? And at the time, I'm a student, I'm sitting down, she's standing up leading this lecture and she goes, well, you know what I've seen clinically is that that never works. There's always one person who wants it and the other person who doesn't.

And I was just dumbfounded at the time because I'm a non-monogamous, polyamorous person myself. In all of these relationships where we want it, I have my whole community. But here's a moment as a student with the power dynamic where it's like, do I speak to the power and the authority that's standing up in the room?

Who's gonna grade my paper that semester? You know what I mean? And so I did. I was like, you know what? That's not what I've seen in my own community and in my own life. And she was like, well, great, then you can write the book on it. And I was like, you know what? I fucking will. I fucking will. You know what?

And so, but that's a moment where if I was a bit more demure. I could have been like, great, okay, doctor, blah, blah, blah, says that never works. I should give up all of my dissertation. I should give up all this stuff and I should listen to the expert.

[00:18:55] Liam: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's crazy. And what you were saying about like the, um, when you, what you were describing there reminds me of kind of the almost like dangerous stereotypes I've seen on, on social media in terms of three reasons why non-monogamy doesn't work, or, uh, you know, three reasons why polyamory is basically cheating.

Oh. Um, like it's, these are dangerous and actually, you know, reflecting on your comment a little bit more about like the cue cards for somebody like yourself thinking I'm just gonna get past the post and then think about how to implement change. There's gonna be other people who will just take that information to heart.

Yes. The other thing is your questioning the cards that relate to queerness and, and relationships and sexuality, but. And this isn't a critique of you, but you are then accepting the other cards that focus more on, well, this is how the, this therapeutic approach works and this is what the research says in this area.

Um, and I wonder if people who are coming to kind of clinical therapeutic training who potentially have experience of different clinical approaches would look, would, you know, accept the gender and queerness and sexuality cards, but then look at the other ones and critique them. Mm-hmm. Um, I think it's, yeah, I, I, I suppose it, it broadly speaks to the importance of individual life approaches when we think about questioning.

Everything. Totally. You know, I view the world, I view, I view the world through this kind of sexuality lens. Mm-hmm. Whether people will view it through more of an intersectional lens or whatever lens is kind of important to them and who they're

[00:20:37] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. Me search. Right. You're passionate about the things that apply to you and, and yeah.

I mean, I wanna burn all of it down. You know, it's, it's fascinating and I got into it and I was like, this is all really problematic. Like, even all, all of it, the fact that I had to pay hundreds, I, I have half a million dollars in student loans to get this education. I'm a first generation student. This was the only way that I was gonna get through that.

My parents couldn't pay for that. So this is how I do this. Okay. So you're telling me I paid that amount of money to get this amount of training, which is about relational skills, mental health. Every single person on this world should have access to that. That is insane that I had to go to that amount of money to get, to be able to help people with things that we should all have the time and space and access to.

But on our capitalism we don't. And so we create this weird, fucked up thing where we work for the rich and then people can pay me money to access me. It's, it's, oh, yeah. Like the more I got into it, the more I'm like, oh, I wanna burn this all down. Because, you know, psychology in this field was created, what, 200 years ago?

It's not that long. Mm-hmm. What the hell did we do before all this? We had community. Okay. We had community. And so yes, my dream goals are to get back to a space where we could community hold one another and not have to isolate into these broken silos of, of, you know, like, um, individual therapists and these broken systems where if, if you are suicidal and you need to be hospitalized, here's $20,000 of debt for your hospital bill that could send, you know, like, yeah, yeah.

I do wanna burn it all. So all the flashcards, we can burn the whole deck. Um, I do wanna help people. I wanna be clear, I wanna help people expand, and I want people to have really good experiences in life. And I don't think that I, I personally don't believe you can be someone in this profession and be apolitical.

I think that's negligent.

[00:22:28] Liam: Particularly when you're working with minoritized individuals who are so impacted by politics.

[00:22:34] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[00:22:37] Liam: And I do similar things with my students. I, you know, I remind them that this, at university, they are paying, they are paying money, you know, and, and again, kind of in an ideal world, we would have government foot or more government funding to, to the higher education institutions.

So the burden and the debt didn't fall on the student.

[00:22:58] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:22:58] Liam: But, you know, yeah. Access to education should be free for all. I, I remind them that you are paying, in the UK it's about 9,000 pounds a year. You need to ask questions, you need to challenge me in these spaces. You need to not just kind of sit back and, and listen to my information.

Like this is, it's so, it's so, yeah. I don't, I never quite know how to get the message across to students, just how important the university can be for. Intellectual curiosity for developing critical thinking, for having the opportunity to go back and forth today. Like coincidentally was the first time in one of my seminars after four or five weeks of teaching, um, where a student kind of came back at me and said a few things.

Yes. And the rest of the class like laughed. It was, you know, I, I create a kind of inclusive environment so it felt like banter. Um, and I was like, brilliant. You know, you're the first person to do this. And it led to just more conversations back and forth, like, we need this space to debate and. Deconstruct knowledge.

[00:24:03] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so inviting, I mean, speaking about BDSM, empower dynamics, it's a power dynamic, right? And I think that's an important thing that one of my professors, Dr. Braden Burkey, who had helped create the a PA guidelines for working with kinky folks, he, he helped me to really see that like power dynamics are everywhere, constantly all the time, right?

And so it's always happening. So even in that dynamic with student and teacher, there's a power dynamic there, right? And so becoming more aware to all of those power dynamics, I think does make you a better player in terms of creating containers and scenes or whatever word you wanna say around that. The more you have consciousness to all the ways there's power dynamics constantly ongoing in the world, the more awareness you have to the, the nitty gritty finiteness of the power dynamic that you create in a actual container of a scene.

[00:24:56] Liam: I, I think it kind of, yeah. For, for, on a personal level, it goes kind of beyond that for me, that when I am in, in these kind of k spaces, regardless of kind of the motivation behind it, whether it's social, whether I'm giving presentations, et cetera. Mm-hmm. Um, I'm aware that there's a power dynamic because I'm a researcher of these K communities that involved in podcasts and all these different stuff talking about,

[00:25:18] Dr. Nicole: right.

[00:25:19] Liam: Um, the, the academic psychological aspects of kink. So yeah, there've been several, many times where I've just had kind of people, or one of the examples, I give regular talks as part of London Fe Week organized by recall. Mm-hmm. The social media cipher, um, kinky men more broadly, broadly speaking. And I get presentations each year and I get people coming up at, you know, afterwards or at different points throughout the week.

I have no idea where, like why they're coming up to me. Whether it's they wanna be friendly, whether, you know, whatever. And constantly in my head it's like, well obviously they're now, they now know they're speaking to Dr. Lee and Al doesn't matter what I do in terms of making them feel comfortable, et cetera.

There's a power dynamic.

[00:26:01] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:26:01] Liam: Um, and this is people who play with power dynamics, so I think it's potentially even more complex for them.

[00:26:07] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm curious, uh, you must have, right, this is another moment where I. I, you know, we, we talked at the beginning, I got your consent to ask about your personal life, right?

And so the tabular rasa, blank slate thing of the therapist, which I think is a reinforcement of, of privilege and specifically often white, uh, you know, heteronormative, we can throw the whole thing on it. Privilege. Because the more you align with the system, the more you can appear, just blank. If you, if you visibly do not align with that, you are outing yourself.

If I have tattoos, if I cut my hair in a queer way, if I have, I, I literally have hair out of my armpits right now, right? Like, that is pretty, like, Hey, I'm a queer person. You know, it's, and so like, there's so many ways that you like out yourself and, um. I have had clients who are, you know, I'm in Chicago, which is pretty big, but the more rural you get and you're a queer person, the more crossover there is in queer spaces.

There's only so many queer spaces. If we're talking about queer and kinky now, there's really only so many play spaces. There only so many dungeons. And so, so many therapists are like, you know, like Tabula rasa, never say hi to the client outside, but what happens when you're like me and you're a queer therapist, a kinky queer therapist, and I'm at a play party and there's only so many of those in Chicago, and I get a client coming in for therapy, and it's like I go to the same play space.

[00:27:37] Liam: Yeah. Yeah. It's, um, I mean, there's no right or wrong answer.

[00:27:41] Dr. Nicole: Right, of course. Yeah.

[00:27:42] Liam: And actually, as you were, as you were kind of saying that, it made me, you know, I, I've not thought about this before, but kind of my own journey with

[00:27:49] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:27:50] Liam: Um, identity and representation that early on in the PhD journey or kind of.

Once I kind of got the doctorate

[00:27:57] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:27:57] Liam: Was kind of given academic talks. I always had the mindset that I, because I'm speaking about such minoritized, stigmatized communities, if people believed that I was an insider of any sort, there might be that assumption of like, oh, well that's, you know, it's that insider talk about the insider perspective.

I thought actually it would be stronger and better for the communities I research to come at this as, look, I'm presenting this as, as an academic, as a unbiased person. Um, and, you know, kind of having that shroud of science.

[00:28:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:34] Liam: And, you know, my position has totally changed now that actually I, I think there's some utility to that, that I need to, you know, show that what I'm doing is scientific in the type of research, but there also needs to be authenticity for.

For thinking about why is this person doing this research? Why should we, you know, listen to this person. And then on the flip side, when I'm presenting to king communities, I want them to to know, again, kind of this is an authentic voice, conducting research and having K's best.

[00:29:11] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. And then often people trust you more, right? Because they know that, that you, you've walked this and that, you're not hiding from that, you're naming it, which puts the power dynamic right there so you can have a conversation about it. Right? I, I know many of the listeners on this podcast, um, are also therapists.

And so like, like you said, there's no right or wrong way to answer that. I think each person is gonna have a different felt sense of what they're comfortable with for, from. To answer it too, in terms of what I do. For anyone who's like listening, I'm very curious. One of my couples therapists, um, she came in and first session was like, Hey, I'm also in these spaces and um, it, you might see me there.

I'd be willing to talk to you about that. And if there's a day where you really want to go to that space and you feel like you cannot, because I'm there, I'm willing to have that conversation with you and like abandon that space that you can have access to it, which I thought was a really beautiful way.

And my professor, Dr. Burkey, again, had always said that like, it's essentially a question of acculturation of like, how deeply acculturated is this person to this dynamic? Is this the first time that they've ever been to a dungeon and they're seeing you mid scene? 'cause again, I can't control if I'm mide and a client walks in.

But if this is their first time doing that, that's a huge drop compared to like a, you know, 60-year-old ster who's been in the scene for 30 years, seeing many people on the cross, whatever. Oh, my therapist is here. Oh, okay. That's like seeing your therapist at the grocery store for them in some ways, right?

Mm-hmm. And so that, that level of deeper reflection of a acculturation. Now what I think is fascinating is, um, in my, in my post, in my internship year, I was doing community mental health in Indiana. Which for context, I, I don't know how much you know about the states. Indiana is very conservative. Very conservative.

And I was in a room with many psych, uh, psychiatrists who had never had any sort of lesson on psychology and how this, and they're learning how to do therapy. And so they were talking about their own discomfort of if a client saw them drunk, outside, yada, yada, yada, what is it like for a client to see them drunk?

And they're like, you know, like, I wouldn't want that, but also it's human and all that sort of stuff. And I had brought in, I was like, well, and again, the more marginalized your identities are and the more smaller those communities are, like for me as a queer, kinky person, there's only so many dungeons in Chicago and there's a real reality that I can run into clients there, and that's something clinically I need to be prepared for.

Now get this, I have that lecture with them where I'm teaching next week. I come in the first topic that they all say to me, Hey Nicole, we were really uncomfortable that you brought in content about your own sex life. And we feel deeply uncomfortable that you talked about that in this space. Wow. I was shook.

I was like, I. I need, I mean, professionally, this is, this is something I feel like, what, you know, but that was a big moment for me where I was like, okay, what, this is the comfort level of the temperature of what I'm in. Like I think clinically they need to confront that. That's in a real reality. But there's still just so much professionalism and depending on where you're at, like I can actively get told that I'm doing something wrong, right.

By having that conversation by them, even though clinically that is something that I need to be prepared for. And all of my kinky therapists who are listening right now in this, in this podcast episode, like that is something you actively have to be prepared for in your small communities, right? And so it's, it's just, it's, it's more of like the flashcard moment, right?

Where like there's a specific way to do this thing in the professional way and you've gotta button up and do it that way. And the more marginalized you get in identities, the more you have to change that system and risk these moments where people look at, you're like, we're uncomfortable that you have that conversation.

And I'm like, cool.

[00:32:49] Liam: Yeah.

[00:32:49] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:32:51] Liam: Yeah. I, I can't come back on that. Yeah, that's, that should, I think it is about the stigma attached to kink. Mm-hmm.

[00:32:59] Dr. Nicole: Um,

[00:33:00] Liam: and this kind of misunderstanding of actually importance of BDSM and kink to people's identities that,

[00:33:07] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[00:33:07] Liam: One of the things I've, I've tried to kind of document to talk about in my research is that kink is an orientation that for some people it's completely sexual.

For some, it's about, um, the, the behavioral physiological things. For others, it's about identity and community. And the way that kind of, I get my students or, or non academics who do research, not inter section Eds m et cetera, is by having those comparisons that actually, if I was to tell you about the gym, like the gym, going to the gym is one of my interests.

It's what I spend hours and hours doing. Um, it's a big part of who I am. It's important that, you know, I don't need to tell people, but it's important that. If it comes up in conversation or if actually people ask about like, oh, how'd you unwind? Et cetera. I wanna feel comfortable enough to talk about that stuff.

And yeah, BT SM is just not there yet in terms of people, you know, realizing that, oh, I don't need to know about your intricate details about how you engage in it, but just like, yeah, this is one of the things that's important to me. That's not a sexual conversation, that is just a, you know, yeah, here are my leisure pursuits or Le leash,

[00:34:14] Dr. Nicole: right?

Absolutely. And so it's almost like the, the stigma around sexuality just in general to name any sort of sexuality pleasure and then kink and BDSM even gets this higher level of stigma because it's even more forbidden, right? If, if I were to be, thank God I'm not in this anymore and this is how I get to have this voice, 'cause this isn't my community.

But if I was in a nine to five button up job and someone asked me, Hey, what did you do this weekend? I can tell them that I went to this queer play party and had this amazing rope scene with my fem partner where we like, you know, like I, uh, that was a huge part of what my weekend was. It was amazing. You know what I mean?

But I, I can't say that because, but I, you know, if I were to say, oh, like I had this great am amazing meal and a dinner, that's okay. Both of those are pleasures, right? Mm-hmm. Both those are embodied somatic pleasures, but one of them is absolutely forbidden. And like the added edition of Rope, right?

Freaking people even more out. Now you're talking about restriction, right? Like, those are things that would be sent, I'd be sent to HR and kicked out of that company real fast, right? In a very buttoned up space. And so it says a lot, it says a lot about what sort of pleasures are okay and what sort of pleasures are absolutely forbidden and not okay to talk about.

[00:35:31] Liam: And this is beyond the, the, the scope of a 90 Minute podcast, or certainly, you know, beyond the scope of me. But yeah, like pleasure, sexual pleasure is long been, um. Chastised governed, controlled for multiple different reasons like that. Yeah. There's entire books on it. Um, I think of, um, Julie Pick, Julie Mann's book, the Pleasures All Mine.

[00:35:53] Dr. Nicole: Oh, I had that one.

[00:35:54] Liam: Which different chapters of different components of sexuality. There's a book, um, I think it's 4,000 Years of Desire. Again, kind of just, you know, it's been so long since I've read it, but just great arguments documenting how kind of through the ages, sex was one of the ways that people were controlled, where sex was used as a tool to make people into villains.

Like bunch of different ways a sex being Yeah. Employed as a tool.

[00:36:20] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah. And we also, there are other cultures where sex has been deeply revered and a part of the spirituality, and there are also many cultures that have been burned and texts that have been burned. So I'd be curious, you know, like truly in the historical lineage mm-hmm.

How many more there, there really were that based on the genocide of Christianity that really globalized and colonized the world. Like, uh, you know, like how many more texts would we, would, would we really have? But there are certain spiritual traditions where sexuality is actually a deep. Part of the spirituality.

And so this is where, I mean, all of this is political, but really coming back even then to the politics of the genocide of Christian thought and the way that, that colonized the world and created this reality where, again, yeah, the nine to five, like that is all of the trickle down of that. And so it's, it's really fascinating when you're like awakening to that insight, truly, which is, is is realizing how deep the systems have impacted us.

And then when you're awakening that into your own subconscious, where you're like, oh shit, the things I like and the things I don't like, the things that make me uncomfortable, the things that turn me on. All of that is deeply impacted by the years and years and years of all those cultural systems, that's a fucking wake up.

That's a, a daily one that I do every day of my life. And I know I'll die to the end still being like, wow, I didn't see how deep that one went over here in June. Okay. You know, it's like, like it is awakening process to realize that and get critical about that and also embrace your desires and not always be, you know, questioning yourself, but still having a bit of curiosity and critical engagement with your sexuality.

I think it is essential that we have critical engagement with these things.

[00:38:05] Liam: Mm-hmm. And you know, I think there's a difference between. Recognizing how deeply ingrained some of these things are. The need to think critically, but actually there's a step on, we're not always told how to act on that, or, you know, how can we start to come to terms with those different things?

And you can't, I I it's gonna take hundreds of years, um, and fundamental shifts in attitudes before, you know, we can forgive ourselves.

[00:38:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I'm curious, how, how do you see that process unfolding? The first thing that comes to mind for myself is community and the importance of rupture and repair and growing together in community and transformative justice, and not just throwing people away when we have a mistake.

Right. All that sort of stuff. And, and for you, like how do you see that, that growth process for folks as, as we awaken to the insight of needing to be critical about our sexuality?

[00:39:07] Liam: I think it's exactly the same. And I think about, as in, I think it's community, I think it's finding support networks and people who can see you for who you are and allow you to explore different aspects of yourself that, you know, this is absolutely still things I'm doing in, in my relationships now of, uh, a space, a community, uh, a social network that allows me to make mistakes and explore myself in ways and, and, and think about, yeah, who I am, my relationship myself, and how that then impacts with other people I think is so important.

[00:39:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:46] Liam: Going kind of beyond, you know, say me and my social circle, you have examples throughout history where queer communities have come together in times of, in terms of need, in terms of crisis. You know, I would argue that it's, it's a shame that it needs a crisis. For that community to come together.

And I wish it was a bit bit more integral into the forefront. Yeah. Um, same for, for BTS m communities. I think at the fire, the fires of, um, San Francisco that Gayle Rubin speaks about in, in their research, what Ruben speaks about is how the, the leatherman and the, the kinks of the San Francisco were the people who really came to the forefront and helped help the community at the time.

I think it is just, yes. I, I, I agree with you that I think how we change and find spaces to be authentic and explore critically who we are, including in our sexuality, is having a comfortable environment and, and community.

[00:40:45] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:45] Liam: How communities develop, I think is a completely different question, and I don't have an immediate answer for that.

Some of them are gonna be. Grassroots and just authentically finding people who are like-minded, who share your interests, who share your identities. I'm all for kind of digging on the internet and technology as being awful in some respect, but things it was super useful for and powerful for was allowing for that connectivity beyond geographical boundaries that, you know, the, the person who might be your soulmate in terms of just like your thinking and, you know, the connection that you may have could be on the other side of the world.

[00:41:24] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:41:26] Liam: So I, I, I think technology is gonna still play a pivotal role in helping these communities develop, but I, I think we would need to kind of have technology as a tool for communication and connection and then move it offline.

[00:41:39] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because rupture and repair is hard to go through.

Online. Right. So much of communication is in the nonverbals. And so when you're having that with just text alone, it's hard. And, and, and granted, we can still get into, you know, like you and I are on, on a call right now, we can see each other, right? And so mm-hmm. There is benefit in that compared to just the written word.

But even now, if, if you and I were to go into our rupture, it'd be nice to have a moment where we could hug afterwards and have a bit of somatic grounding together. Right? And so there are limitations to online cultures in the, the levels of, you know, human experience you can go through with rupture and repair and community building and all of that.

And also it is huge. This is playing. Huge role. As you said, we can talk shit about the internet all we want, but like, it's playing a huge role in our liberation right? Now. Think about this. Before, when you had that now quote unquote, I'm not gonna say it's weird, but you know, you're thinking to yourself back in the day, like, I have this weird kink that no one knows about.

How the fuck would you find out? Right? Word of mouth, someone maybe drops, you see leather, right? Here we go, you see leather, right? So all these sort of code switching, but that is so hard to do nowadays. You, you can just type into a search, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh wow, there's this whole Reddit community.

There's all this, oh wow, there's, there's that event you were speaking at, right? Like you can tap into network so much faster, which also, uh, eliminates some of the shame. And I've, I've spoken with previous, um, educators in the space specifically about the edge between this, where it's like. Yes, it gives us more access to the community.

And that can also be dangerous in the sense that some people will, will learn the lingo of the community, but maybe weren't going through the community building to learn the skills of how to do rupture and repair. You know, like the, like the dom who learns it can be any part, but let's say like a dom who learns all of the lingo of safe words, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

But has never like actually practiced all of any of that, but has gone on enough online communities to know the words, to say, to signal to someone like a sub, like, Hey, I'm experienced, right? And then these horrible things happen because there wasn't this sort of vetting that used to happen through word of mouth.

So like, we're in an interesting time where like I, I love the. The, um, lack of shame and the openness and the connection that internet is bringing. And also it's a time to be critical about like, uh, how deep is this person in the community? Do they just know the lingo and are they sort of like, um, value fronting to pull you in when they actually don't have community where they've gone through a lot of this learning?

And that's, that's a risk for sure.

[00:44:18] Liam: And I know we kind of went off on a complete tangent of it, but you know, in terms of the, the journey into kind of this research area mm-hmm. It was those sorts of things that I was thinking about. Mm-hmm. At the same time doing that evolutionary psychology essay that I was thinking about how useful the internet was for allowing people to, to find people like them.

The research I was doing at the time was only talking about sexual minorities in general or kind of, you know, specifically kind of gay, lesbian, bisexual people at that time. Mm-hmm.

[00:44:49] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:50] Liam: And then I was kind of simultaneously reading research on kink and the internet just wasn't mentioned. I was like, oh, okay, well, you know, this isn't gonna be happening in a vacuum.

If it's happening for one community or one minoritized group of people, it's gonna have impacts for others. Amazing.

[00:45:06] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:45:07] Liam: Um, so that was basically my research journey that I started looking at the internet's impact on, on kink. And everything you said is basically the, the stuff that I tackled in the interviews that mm-hmm.

Um, like one of the key things I argued, and others have done it as well, but, um, in my, in my PhD research and in the book is just how integral the internet has been for helping people find, find people like them, not feel like they are the only person in the world. And some of the, um, interviews I did with participants were so powerful that, um, like not, um, a direct quote, but one participant was describing how they didn't wanna feel alone, and by connecting with other people online, he, and it wasn't.

What we would kind of class as niche kink, that was mm-hmm. You know, something like bondage or something. Mm-hmm. Just being like, I thought it was just me. Mm. And having that opportunity to feel that connection, feel that, yeah.

[00:46:04] Dr. Nicole: Huge.

[00:46:05] Liam: Or there's a range of kind of social psych research into the importance of identity construction and how we need to feel safe and confident and secure and Yeah.

If we know that there's aspects of ourselves that other people share, um, and we view those people in a good light, it, you know, it makes us feel better about ourselves.

[00:46:22] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:46:22] Liam: On the flip side, the main danger I came up with, or the main danger I, I spoke about was people bypassing the traditional in, in air quotes, traditional ways of engaging in kink.

That used to be you would earn your letters, you would

[00:46:37] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:46:38] Liam: Kind of build that reputation. You couldn't wear a particular thing until, you know, A, B, and C in your community. Yeah. You know, sometimes signed off officially. Other times it was, you know, there was a ritualized enjoyment aspect of it, whereas.

It's, it's two things now that have changed. There's number one, the internet in terms of getting the lingo, in terms of developing a reputation in other ways. So on various kink platforms, you can have friends, you can have recommendations from other people. They don't signify anything. They don't signify safety, knowledge, experience.

You, you run on fe life, you can tag all the different things that you're into on other platforms. You can have a bunch of different pictures of gear and, and all that kind of stuff. Right? It doesn't mean, and then the other kind of main thing that has impacted it, um, which impacts most things negatively is capitalism.

[00:47:28] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:29] Liam: Yeah. That, that people have, the middle people have the money to purchase gear. If you see somebody in a play space and they're in full leathers, or they've got that very particular niche brand of things, you're gonna look at them more favorably. Yep. Just because they, they could afford to go into a, you know, fall into a kink shop and just say, I'll take it.

[00:47:51] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:47:52] Liam: That there was something about the un underground nature and the recommendations of Yeah. How you, how you get involved with certain people, or how you get access to different forms of gear and equipment, et cetera. And it has led to kind of horror stories, sadly, of people not, I won't go into too many specifics, but it's led to horror stories.

[00:48:12] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. My latex wear is expensive. It is very expensive. I love it. It is expensive, right. And so there's capitalism at the heart of this too, and I think for me, one of the. One of the things that was coming to mind, which as people in the king community, we know how problematic this is.

But the thing about the, the scale of 50 shades of Gray. Like, just think about the scale of how many people bought that book, how many people have seen all three of the movies. And granted, me and my poll q were watching that movie this weekend as we did the RO scene, which was like interesting, like sort of um, like we would all just like laugh at every five moments and be like, that is so problematic together.

And so it was like a comedy moment for us, but there were so many people. It was great. It was great. I loved being tied and like watching and just being like, this is crazy. Um,

[00:49:10] Liam: I love the idea of. Thinking about 50 shade degree as a comedy. That is,

[00:49:14] Dr. Nicole: it was

[00:49:14] Liam: excellent.

[00:49:15] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. You know, you're like, oh, man. Yeah.

But the problem is, many people watch it and then go, wow, this whole world, I could do that. Why don't I do it? Mm-hmm. Right, right, right. And they don't have that same lens. And so as you're, as you're saying, community is such an essential piece essentially for, for like the, the ability to grow and checked and be checked and called in.

That's an essential part of community as you're saying that we're, we're lacking around this. And so finding our feet in this as we're building safely, I, um, there's the Kink and leather archives in Chicago. It's a museum. I don't know if you've been mm-hmm. Um, yeah. Beautiful.

[00:49:54] Liam: I've nothing, but I've had wonderful things.

[00:49:56] Dr. Nicole: Well, let me know when you come out. We'll go together. Um, this, okay. This museum, uh, they had these, um, they have the paper notes of where they would post these listings. Like Dom seeking experience, sub blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and these different networks. And so it was beautiful. You could see the responses to different threads and where people would respond and leave a phone number and how they would get into contact.

And it was really beautiful to see you. You might really enjoy this, like see some of the written notes of how people connected before the internet. And it was also really interesting. I remember reading a plaque that had talked about how if, um, the community leaders who had those boards and were vetting that.

If you had had a bad experience with someone, you could write into them and they would remove you from the community immediately. It wasn't like a moment where you got an opportunity to have a conversation about it and kind of like present your case and you know, all that sort of stuff. You just got dropped immediately.

And so it's interesting to think about how that creates a culture where you, ideally, the person who would make the complaint would really hold that with a lot of care that if I make this complaint to the community leaders, this person is gone. Mm-hmm. And you would hope. That, that also keeps the other player like accountable.

Like, wow, at any point someone could make this. Um, but you, you, you can see the complexities of that now. Like how do we get into systems where people are held accountable? And also what does it mean to hold space for transformative justice under these systems? Because the, the impact of all these systems is wide.

And, and then there's a, there's a dance between taking accountability for your part of this, IM this system that's internalized and also acknowledging that you didn't start this problem, right. This is, this is a dynamic relationship with all the systems as we noted. And so it's, I think it's really interesting to think about vetting right and community standards, both pre-internet and, and with the internet now.

[00:51:46] Liam: I think some of that kind of community I think is, is still there in terms of the events that I go to and, and what a presenter and the community links that I have. Like I'm, I'm aware of the gossip that happened, um, within and potentially. Calling gossip is kind of underplaying what it is, but I'm aware of like things that go on within the community and some of the kind of community pushback that you can see people's profiles on different platforms become a bit more reduced or they become a bit more, a bit less active on social media and think about, okay, well they've got, reconsider how they engage with it.

So I, I, I think those community dynamics and the ways that we think about reputation and consequence of behaviors are still there, but that is the kind of rewind. Mm-hmm. In my research, in the book, I identify community versus non-community members. Mm-hmm. And the community members are people who often attend events, will have online profiles and have a lot of information, have friendship networks and kind of a blaring of the kink and normal, in quotes, identity on their profiles.

And then you have the non-community members who are. On these sites functionally for, for sex, for BDSN that

[00:53:02] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:53:02] Liam: They, there's different examples of how they engage with it, that they will create a profile message, somebody have kinky sex and then delete the profile. Yeah. Or will have minimal information, will go on it once every six months, or will be on particular websites, but not attending community events.

So if they do, they're only, if they're in the dark room and they're not going to. Bondage 1 0 1 or consent 1 0 1.

[00:53:24] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:53:24] Liam: Um, so you've got kind of broadly, these two groups of the people. They see k as a social and a sexual aspect of their lives. And for the other people it's just completely sexual and they don't feel that kind of same need.

[00:53:36] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:53:37] Liam: For those non-community people, that's where potential concerns arise in terms of where are they learning the knowledge about how to engage in kink, in a, I suppose to say safe, say in a consensual way, but, um, no, in a risk aware way in. Right. You know, the mantra that I follow is, um, or I'm, I'm aware of, and, and praise the four Cs, which is care, caring, caution, communication, and consent.

Mm-hmm. Where do they learn those kind of terms and that ways of, of practicing kink, they don't. And then where do they find out about the community justice of, oh, this person has broken safe words or has, you know, done not very nice things.

[00:54:15] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:54:15] Liam: They don't learn about that, that level of reputational damage of accountability, et cetera.

And so. Again, there's, there's pros and cons to A, the internet, and B, how king community and subcultures operate today.

[00:54:30] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Which makes me want to deep dive into the word gossip. When you started, all of that we're, I know there's no magical answer for this, but boy do I want that magical answer with the context of what you just said.

Where is the line between gossip? And community safety, and particularly about something like sexuality, which is not always BDSM, but if we're mixing all of that into this, where is that line of gossip and oversharing details that maybe you don't have consent for versus, Hey, this person was unsafe in this way and so I'm going to cross those boundaries of consent where they did not wanna tell me because I'm genuinely concerned for the safety of other individuals who are non-community members who are doing this.

Like, oh, I wish there was some magical God that could tell me in those moments when you're with community, like, yes, Nicole, great answer. You totally tell people versus no, and the reality of ethics is it's always gray and it's always nuanced, and I hate that, that the part of me that wants to be right, hates that.

But I'm curious for you, like how do you, how do you end up defining that difference between gossip and community care?

[00:55:46] Liam: I am a unique entity given my role as the academic kink researcher. Yeah. Um, the eth ethics and consent are kind of at the forefront of everything I do. Yeah. Um, that there are, there are moments where people who I've interviewed as part of my research are in the room and I'm talking about, um, or I'm using data that they've given me.

I've using, I'm using quotes and all anonymous. Sure. But, you know, I do that, um, looking around the room, not looking at anyone in particular or that kind of stuff. Um, yep. So I've been in kind of those interesting situations and

[00:56:19] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:56:20] Liam: You know, similar things have been, oh, I've, I've read one of your papers.

Is this the participant you interviewed? But I, I, I can't tell you.

[00:56:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:27] Liam: Um, oh, I'm friends with them. It's fine.

[00:56:28] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:30] Liam: I can't go and ask them. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I think I'm a bit more unique. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I would just think that there are differences between. Speaking information that is relevant to decisions you want to make and information that isn't needed.

Mm-hmm. So I think it's so perfectly acceptable to look at people's online profiles. You're speaking to them and then you find out, or you look at their friend list and, oh, I know that person. I think a good technique. And one of the things my participants spoke about, they will then email the people they know and and say, oh, you know, we've both got a connection with person A.

They're on your friend list. Have you played with them? Do you, um, yeah. You know, a is it worth my time? Are they a catfish? 'cause that's often one of the things that we have to think about. An online environment. B, have you played with them? Was,

[00:57:22] Dr. Nicole: yep.

[00:57:22] Liam: Was it a good experience? Yep. And I think that isn't. Did you enjoy yourself?

Because actually there are experiences where we might not have enjoyed ourselves, but it's nothing to do with the individual people. It's the chemistry wasn't right, right. Was not there. So I think gleaning information about people and about, you know, whether you should engage in risky activities or vulnerable activities or, or whatever with them is a perfect line of questioning.

You know, questions around how big is different body sizes, um, yeah. You know, what, what are their interests? That kind of stuff.

[00:57:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:57:58] Liam: I think there's a difference between, you know, let's say you are only involved in bonds that you are just rigor through and through. It potentially skips a few steps if, oh, I see that person over there.

Do you know them? Yeah. They're not in bondage. They hate it. Okay, cool. You know, thanks for the heads up, right? You, you've saved both our time. You've potentially, you've sure potentially avoided awkwardness, but that only works in a conversational friendly approach. So yeah, there's. As you say, kind of it's, there's no binary answer of like, this is the way to do it or this isn't, it depends on the situation.

Right. But I think broadly speaking, will the information inform whether you will play with that person or not? And it would you feel comfortable, other people sharing that information about you, I think is a good way of framing it.

[00:58:44] Dr. Nicole: That's tough though. 'cause I have a lot of stuff. I'd be totally cool with people sharing, you know, and then some, and then, so I, I think that makes me think about the acculturation of people's comfort level with sexuality 'cause mm-hmm.

'cause for me, I'm on, you know, I'm on the 1% of the 1%, like, like you who studies this and I was like, totally cool. Yeah. Like go for it. Like, share that. That's fine. You know, and so whoever's tuning in to be like, you're not alone in figuring out this. I think this is what it means to, um, to be exploring new areas of relationality.

Right. In terms of, I can even get into you with some of this, like my Poly Q network is navigating how much to disclose around STI status. So like one of my partners is exploring with someone who has, um, a positive HSV one diagnosis, right? And so that introduces risk into the system. Granted, there's so many people that have HSV one, it's very common.

I'm sure you know that for listeners, it's very common. Most of us have it. This person has had an outbreak before, right? Which means that there's more, um, chance of spreading the virus than people who have never had an outbreak. I did a lot of research on this after that. And so then my partner got tested, and this is even just with oral sex, which there's, there's risk of even just any sort of contact, even if you're using a condom.

The risk of even, um, the general area, just being contacted from the labia, from the scro, the whole thing, it's, it's possible, right? Mm-hmm. And so now we're talking about percentages. He tested positive for HSV one, but never had an outbreak. He's one of the normal, like asymptomatic carriers. So now I'm sitting here thinking, how much do I disclose?

I do not fluid bond with him in the sense of we use condoms, right? But for oral sex we do fluid bond. So I don't fluid bond in a term of penetration. How much do I need to disclose to my fluid bonding partner about this risk? 'cause it's not, it's small, but it's still real, right? And then when I disclose that risk, my partner is only having sex with one other person.

It's a small community. So the second I say, Hey, other partner in Fluid Bunny, my other partner over there is having sex with someone who has a positive STI status that out, who that person is really fast without their. Because there's only one. There's only like, if you know who my different people are and you know who that other person is that now.

So you see the layers of like mm-hmm. And then, and then how often do I have to, like, do I need to say, Hey, you know, he's having sex with this person this many times a week, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So that they can know the real risk. 'cause if it's once a year, that's less than every, like do you see my mind just like shattering here?

Mm-hmm. At like, how do you do this consensually in ways that are authentic to all of the risks, which we shitty research on. First off, we can't isolate the variable of oral sex. So many people have genital and oral sex. So, so to your listener, like it's, it's really hard to get research on what the actual risk is for that.

So we're already playing with like a deep unknown, but in that deep unknown, like how much do you disclose and it starts outing people.

[01:01:46] Liam: I imagine it's gonna be personal. Yeah. Individualistic approach in terms of how to deal with it. Because you know, options that come to my mind is just like, initially I would just be like, it's full, open communication.

Yeah. Yeah. Like that's what whole point of how consensual NoMy works is, you know, chat about everything. And it's certainly one of the integral aspects in my own life. It's, you know, clear, transparent.

[01:02:15] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[01:02:15] Liam: If people get hurt, they get hurt. If people feel a particular kind of way, we talk about it, but then actually there might be other options where having all four people in the room Yeah.

To discuss like, okay, you know, I wanna clear the air. I want to chat about this. So we are all informed and about the risks that are. Being good to take and even say are small percentages. It's important everybody knows. There's also then different steps of like, you know, hypothetically, I wanna sit you down and tell you like, if this happened, what information would you wanna know if this happened?

What information would you wanna know? Right. And, and then the final thing is like, if somebody works something out based on the information you've given them, that's, I don't know, it's, it's potentially a way of easing your own blame around it that mm-hmm. You didn't disclose anything. You disclosed the important pieces of information.

Right. And then what people have done with that in terms of like making the next steps, you know, that is somewhat outta your control. Right. But you felt yourself, this is the information that is important to me to disclose to others. Sometimes there's kind of no get around it.

[01:03:22] Dr. Nicole: Totally. I appreciate that.

Yeah. I'm just sitting in it all really. And I think it's essential to have these conversations. 'cause there are so many people that are moving through this and we don't, we don't have that worksheet. Like you've got a worksheet on that flow chart, which, which maybe I'll make after this conversation of like, you know, like, 'cause that's what I want.

You know, it's like, okay if this, then that, if this, then that. And I really do love that image of like a kitchen table poly dynamic where we all come together and have a conversation about the risk and the safety and do it in a way where we're all sitting in a circle and being like, this is what we've got.

And I, I think as we're saying about community, I would imagine that pulls people together to be really intentional. Because you're right, if you have this risky moment, you are inducing it into a. System of people and can then pass that risk into a system of people. Now, my thoughts are, again, I just went to that queer play party.

If I'm having a pickup scene with somebody and they asked me about my SDI status, do I have to then say, I have these partners. They have the, like, you know, like how, like how long is Kitchen Table dynamic? Cool. Ongoing partners got that? Like, yeah, let's have that moment where we all come together. You're at a pickup party doing play like.

Like, how long is that conversation? You know? And maybe that, and maybe that is the right route to go. It really gives, you know, like when you have a surgery, they give you that point, point, point, 0.02% of your LASIK surgery that you could go blind. And that's the ethics of it. You sign that document and you say, I know that that's that small, small percentage that if all things failed right now, you know?

And so it's just like, wow. Like I just really, you know, I'm, I'm passionate about helping people figure this out and man, I really wish we had like some really great like, flow charts for this to be able to like rest my ethics soul right now of like, what is the best way to do this.

[01:05:07] Liam: Uh, there's something about, you know, once we know about.

Once we have information about risk and different variables, et cetera, that's where it suddenly becomes like a sticking point. So, yeah, you know, in your example, the minute you know that there is a potential source of something, that's when it's like, actually we, we have this moral obligation to talk about it.

But, you know, part of that conversation can just be, you know, the, the risk is small and this is a risk that we are aware of where we are comfortable navigating, you know, it's not the best in the world, but this risk is potentially lower than the pickup parties, than just like the ra random casual encounters.

So yeah, drawing those comparisons and saying, look, if this happens, blah, blah, blah, but actually there's bigger risks of A, B and C in these other spaces. And I think at the end of the day. The thing that you're discussing is being mindful about the people that you engage with, and that's the most important thing.

[01:06:11] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and doing the emotional work for the person who maybe has never even heard of HSV one and then goes and SDI about, oh my, oh my God. Oh my God, dear God. Right. And now we're doing community work with one another to be like, Hey, this is a very normal thing. These other are, you know, like that's a lot of community work that you're doing together.

And I just, you know, as I was processing this with my partner, as we were exploring it all together, it's like. Shit. Like you, you go through all these conversations, all of this, I'm looking at the ethics, the risks all, and now you tell me that I'm supposed to just go into oral sex the next time and be super excited.

You know, like mm-hmm. Like, I just, there's so much more consciousness back in the day, you know, it'd be like oral sex. Woo. You now, now you're like, wow, okay. Like the risk, the ratios, the people I'm connected to, and it's like, you know, talk about like trying to get out of your head and actually just enjoy the like, moment of ex receiving head, right?

Like there was so much going on in my head now about the ethics of it all. And so it's, it's like interesting how the more. The more aware you are, I'm not gonna say the less fun you have and the more you know sadness that comes. However, it's just you're wholly much more consciousness, which means there's much more to surrender into the moment, to the more you become aware of sexuality and it's not just this like thing that you tap into occasionally, the more you really, I'm sure you've experienced this as a researcher, like the more you really commit to it, the more there is going on psychologically in your head every time that you have any sort of play.

And it's like time to turn that off and just be present with a sensation, you know? That's a lot.

[01:07:46] Liam: And it's one of the main things that people in my research I spoke about in terms of the benefits of kink and achieving that sub space on space.

[01:07:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Turn off the mind. That's where I love a good bondage, right?

It's like truly like, put the ball, gag, restrict me. I will let go. Like there's, I can't speak anymore. You know, like I will let go.

What an amazing conversation.

[01:08:13] Liam: I mean, it certainly went down different pathways.

[01:08:16] Dr. Nicole: That's the beauty of it all right. That's the beauty of trusting the unfolding. And before we come for it to close and all that stuff, I, I wanna make sure I take a deep breath with you. Ah, and I wanna check in and see if there is anything else that you wanna share with the listeners.

[01:08:35] Liam: I feel like I've shared a lot, a lot throughout the last, um, 90 minutes. No, I just, you know, it's, it is very useful to check in with people who have similar thinking as you and actually take a step back, like sex is, sex is brilliant, relationships are wonderful. Actually, as, as we said earlier, like it is important to critically reflect on them and think, you know, and check in with yourself.

And part of. What I think these conversations do, and I've done other podcasts and the talks they do wherever, is kind of thinking about my own accountability and my own, you know, what is the research I'm doing? How is it gonna inform different perspectives and how can it be used to, you know, impact the people I'm working with?

So. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it has been a great conversation. Thank you so much.

[01:09:26] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. It's such a joy. It's such a joy. You know, I record with so many different people and when there are values that align and experiences, identity factors that align the depth of conversation that you can go to. Right. Like, I love those moments where you and I are like really going deep into it.

I'm not having that moment where I have to explain what the B-D-E-S-S Mm. You know, like, so you just like the different variations of how deep you can go in connection with people. And so I, I love those moments where there's someone who gets it and I can really just like mm-hmm. Let's go full into this, and like really into it.

And so it's such a joy to be able to like process the unknowns with you. Right. Not the simple, like, here's the A, B, C, D of how to have a great sex life. Mm-hmm. Or whatever the fuck some people do. Like to really like sit with you and the like, there's no answer for this. Wanna talk about it? You know, like, yeah.

That's very real, very human. And so I'm, I'm grateful for the nomination that came from another guest to be able to talk to you and to like commi, uh, continue that community conversation with these deep unknowns.

[01:10:29] Liam: Yeah. It was a journey. Yeah.

[01:10:31] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:10:31] Liam: Thank you very much.

[01:10:32] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Alright. So the one last question that I ask everyone on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:10:44] Liam: Hmm. God, there's several things that come to mind. I think the two in my head, 'cause there's kind of a pessimistic one of like, we aren't as unique as we think we are. Mm. And I mean that we have more that connect us than separate us.

[01:11:01] Dr. Nicole: Beautiful.

[01:11:01] Liam: Um, but I think kind of more so on this topic, and I suppose related, there are people who will get you, there are people who will understand you.

It takes more time to some than others, but. Once you achieve that, it is worth it.

[01:11:19] Dr. Nicole: Mm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. And as you said, the internet, look at us using the internet to connect right now, right? Yeah. So like, yeah. Great. You know, um, and so many of my clients, I have clients who, who reach out to work with me from rural areas and they're like.

Dr. To Nicole, like, how do I find people? Right? And that is often where we are getting on the internet to find events, to find munches, to find this or that, or people or apps or whatever. And it's serious work. And I know so much of, um, people trying to trust in the abundance of the people that are out there that you can connect with.

And I really love this podcast as a testament to that. Like you can see all these 200 plus episodes that have come of people who are similar. Like it's there. And then also that real reality that the more marginalized you are, the more you're in rural areas. There's a real scarcity to that. And so like, holding that reality.

And what, what I hope out of that is, as we we've spoken to, is there'll be more community care, right? Mm-hmm. In a society that's so quick to just toss anything, toss anything. Oh, it's got a broken thing, we'll toss it. I don't need to repair that. I'll just buy a new one off of blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever, like.

I would hope that like so much of the queer lineage has been like really caring and coming together and going through the hard stuff, and so I hope that as we're continuing to expand, we can slow down and really be with the people that are around us, to really go through those moments of rupture, which are inevitable in any human relationship, and to grow together through that.

That's, that's my hope for humanity with all of this.

[01:12:56] Liam: I think that's so powerful.

[01:12:58] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Well, what an amazing episode. I'm so grateful that you took up the call to come onto the show. Thank you.

[01:13:08] Liam: Thank you so much for the invite.

[01:13:09] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[01:13:09] Liam: Yeah, it was really, it was a wonderful conversation and you know, a breath of fresh air compared to some of the stuffier acting conversation I'm used to.

[01:13:18] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, man. I'm using the academic card to like really dismantle that, so I'm glad you feel that. And it feels good.

[01:13:24] Liam: Yeah,

[01:13:25] Dr. Nicole: yeah. No. Um, well, for all the listeners who really want to connect with you and have fallen in love with your perspective, your mind, your work, where can they find you? How can they connect with you?

[01:13:36] Liam: I'm on Blue Sky and Instagram, I suppose. Blue Sky is kind of the best. Way in terms of like the more academic perspective type thing just at, and then on Instagram is just a way of connecting, but it's mostly just me posted pictures of food and landscapes or wherever. Um, but yeah, if you Google my name, there's various kind of.

Blogs and podcasts and other different things I've done. 'cause I think it's so important to kind of have that community accountability.

[01:14:06] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'll have all of that linked in the show notes below so the listeners can come and find you and just go straight into the notes and connect.

So thank you again, Liam, for coming onto the show with such a joy to have you today.

[01:14:20] Liam: Yeah. Thanks for the invite. Cheers.

[01:14:23] Dr. Nicole: Dear listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Modern Anarchy. Thank you for sharing this episode with your friends, with your lovers, with your community. Truly, it means so much to me and I am so grateful that you are here.

If you are wanting to release jealousy in your nonmonogamous dynamics and step into a compersion and pleasure filled connection, you can read my book, the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide for free on my website. There you'll also find so many other free resources, including worksheets on how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non-monogamous dynamics and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure filled sex and relationship.

So head on over to modern Anarchy podcast.com to find all of those free resources, and I look forward to seeing you next week.