264. Burnt-Out Libido: When You Need a Polycule to Afford NYC with Justine Ang Fonte

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Justine join us for a conversation about the adult word pleasure. Together we talk about how sex education differs across the states, when receiving pleasure is difficult, and moving through a miscarriage. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I'm so happy that you are here.

So happy that you're tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, author of The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide, and founder of the Pleasure Practice, where I support individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships.

Dear listener, the humanness of it all, the burnt-out libido. I think all of us pleasure activists have been here before, especially with summer and all of the events and activity and experiences that start coming up in this time. Wow, what an invitation to slow down What an invitation to honor your capacity, your time, your ability.

Dear listener, I just wanna invite you to, like, feel into your body right now. Are there areas, aspects of your life that need more tending to? Do you need more rest in this season? Because your rest is revolutionary, and it is so, so important that you're tending to the care that you need, the care that you need to provide to the people in your communities.

Because the more that we do that on the individual and our small collectives, the more that will continue to ripple out and create that other world that we dream of. A world where these systems are not what they are. A world where we are able to tap into more pleasure collectively. All right, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my free offerings and resources at modernanarchypodcast.com.

And I also wanna say the biggest thank you to my Patreon supporters. Thank you for supporting this movement. Thank you for joining me. Thank you for making this show possible for the last five years. So thank you, thank you, thank you. All right, dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love, and let's tune in to today's episode.

Dear listener, there's a space already waiting for you where you are invited to let go of every old script about sex and relationships, and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure, empowerment, and deep alignment. I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together, we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real transformation possible. And I'll be right there with you, guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure and visit modernanarchypodcast.com/pleasurepractice to apply. And the first question that I ask every guest on the show is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:04:05] Justine: Hi. I'm Justine, and I am a tired sex educator.

[00:04:14] Dr. Nicole: I hear that. I hear that. Justine, tell me what w- the exhaustion. Tell me what's going on for you.

[00:04:22] Justine: Um, I had a very big ignited flame. What was that? In 2008- Mm-hmm ... when I started this journey, um, working in an eighth grade classroom, and I had taught students who were pregnant but in eighth grade, who were already parents but still in eighth grade- Yeah

and a particular student who showed up for half the school year because she had a period, and every time it happened, she just thought she was sick and broken- Oh ... so she wouldn't come to school. Gosh, gosh. And she failed eighth grade three years in a row. And so this, this six-week summer school experience as a math teacher was really the origin story of my sex ed journey- Wow

because I was tasked to teach math, but clearly there was a health disparity that nobody was willing to address impacting their ability to achieve in mathematics. Yep. And yet people were just still teaching us young teachers how to teach to a math test- Mm ... and nothing of actual relevance to them.

[00:05:28] Dr. Nicole: Gosh.

[00:05:29] Justine: And so I was so invigorated and, um, you know, bright-eyed and bushy-tailed that I could do something about, you know, the American public education system through health education. And for the last 15 years, I have absolutely answered that call. Mm. And not just because of the current political climate, but sexuality has always been stigmatized- Yep

always been marginalized, and I've just always been in this uphill, um, battle, whether it be in, you know, personal one-on-one conversations with parents of schools that I'm working in, or Sean Hannity on Fox News. And so the, the battles just feel so big- Yeah ... that I just keep saying to myself optimistically, "We'll all have a job forever."

But the actual goal is that I won't have a job in this- Mm ... because people will already be so sex positive and- Ah ... affirming of bodies and promoting pleasure- Yes ... and their liberation. Um, but I'm also human Oh, yeah ... and I have other, you know, identities besides being an educator. Right. And I'm feeling like some of those identities and those roles and interests are getting compromised because of how- How much is just being sucked out of the one identity as a sex educator.

So I'm tired. Oh, yeah. I'm still passionate, but I'm also wanting to, you know, prepare to be a good ancestor, to pass- Yeah ... down the torch and the baton. Yeah. Because I don't know how much more I have left in me to keep being the one to lead the charge.

[00:07:25] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, which is important to recognize for yourself- Yeah

right? Where is the pleasure calling to you? Mm. And you have so much wisdom that you can share with other people who are ready to pick up that torch, and are- Right ... feeling that same fire and that liberation. And so it sounds like that transformation into your role that you play in the revolution.

[00:07:44] Justine: Yeah.

I'd like to think so. Mm-hmm. But it's, it's, I've been confronted with that more recently as I got married, wanna start a family- Yeah ... and I'm so tired that I don't feel like I can invest in those parts of my life in the way that I would want to, because I'm so, um, passionate and energetic, and putting all that energy into sex education that-

[00:08:11] Dr. Nicole: Yep

[00:08:12] Justine: is often very thankless. Yeah. And not profitable, so. Yeah. It's ultimately me just like, "Okay, you wanna start this family, that means money- Yeah ... in this, in this century." Right. Even though, you know, it's might seem easy or a given thing for people to just pop out kids. Um, but I'm a very intentional person, and I plan on, I've planned on always having a planned parenthood, and I am- Yeah

now planning for that. And- Absolutely ... that takes energy and time.

[00:08:46] Dr. Nicole: Oh, huge. Huge amounts of energy and time. And our current climate is hostile- Mm-hmm ... in America to planning- Yep ... for a family. Yeah. You have to have so much privilege and abundance to be able to- Totally ... pay for those things. And so it's important to recognize how hostile this space is.

Yeah. Uh, all the changes that are happening even to insurance right now. Yeah. I mean, like, it is not... So it makes sense that you're really having to sit at the intersections of the politics of this work- Right ... for your own personal life-

[00:09:16] Justine: Right ...

[00:09:16] Dr. Nicole: and, and the professional space. And as we, we talked about a little bit before even getting onto here, like, that martyrdom complex of I must give- Mm

I must give- Mm-hmm ... especially in motherhood and all that that comes out. Right. Like, it's beautiful to be setting that boundary for yourself to say like, "I need a shift in this 'cause I have other priorities. I'm not just this martyr-less sex educator- Yeah ... who's gonna keep giving, giving, giving and burning out."

Yeah. Yeah, trying, trying Totally, totally. And even myself today, I was in supervision. I, I continue to seek supervision for therapy work. I think it's so... It's a weird job. It's a weird job of, like, so many- Yeah ... relationships, and so I, I love having mentors who I can, like, process the- Totally ... ever-evolving reality of this.

And for me recently, I had a couple of clients who actually go to the same play party spaces that- Hmm ... I've been going to for years. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. That's fun. And so, right, I've been like... I was like, "Do I have..." I'm, like, crying in supervision, "Do I have to give up my space- Yeah ... in this community because of the professionalism and what that requires- Right

out of these-"

[00:10:22] Justine: Right. Right. Yeah. So

[00:10:26] Dr. Nicole: I feel you- You know? ... just in the, the work of this of, like, okay, I'm an educator in this space, and what does that mean for my own personal life? Yeah. And what does that mean for my goals? And it's- Yeah ... and it's a lot to sit through because, like you named too, like, sexuality has so much stigma.

Mm-hmm. And so when you're thinking about family, who might be- Mm ... tuning into this conversation- Right ... we're navigating so many multiple layers of, uh, of, like, double think of- Right ... what is this person gonna think? What is that person gonna think? What will my licensing board think if- Mm ... you know, this situat- Mm-hmm

like, it is a lot to think about all of the political context, and here we- Right ... are trying to, like, bring this liberation. Yeah. And we have to sit with all of this nuance.

[00:11:02] Justine: Yeah, yeah. And being reminded about how much so much of that infrastructure is built on white supremacist tenets. Yeah. And yet we're trying to really just burn that whole house down to build a brand-new one when we're really just doing little renovations bedroom by bedroom- Yep

and hoping it doesn't just get re-renovated again by the people that actually have power. Yep. So it's just... It's a little bit of, like, how do you play this game that was never built for you- Mm-hmm ... while still also maybe on the side creating a brand-new house that everyone can move to later? Yeah, yeah.

And that you might never live in because you'll be dead by then. Right. And you be okay with that. It's a lot.

[00:11:45] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. It is, absolutely. Juggling so many different hats, and so hence where you're thinking about handing that torch down to recognize- Right ... how after we die there's gonna be some younger, passionate, liberated person who's like, "I got this," right?

Right. And that's a huge part of this work is dreaming and knowing that another world is possible- Yeah ... while also existing in the current context that we're in- Yeah ... and really challenging those systems.

[00:12:09] Justine: Right, and building that legacy while you're still here. Mm-hmm.

[00:12:13] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I'm curious for you, if we dream of that new world, what do you see?

You know, you said the other house that we hope- Yeah ... we could step into. Like, I love dreaming, and, and I'd be curious.

[00:12:26] Justine: Um, it actually feels really optimistic, only just because of the experiences that I've had with- My Gen Z students who have now already graduated college- Mm ... and seeing what they're doing with that and how different it was for me post-college, and how, like, stunted and restricted I felt, but how much audacity they have.

And the, the leaders that they're able to look up to that are almost just, like, just above their peer group. Mm. I mean, thinking about, like, any of my Gen Z students who are, let's say, 25 years old, and they have a new mayor in New York City that is just eight years older than them. Right. Right? Is like, whoa.

Like, I still had to think about Mayor Giuliani, right? Mm. And I'm like, "Okay, this is just how it's always gonna look like. Okay, there's Bloomberg." Ah. Like, they just all look the same. Like, and to know that especially my students of color who are no longer students and very much, you know, maybe even, like, running that campaign- Yeah

seeing the fruits of that labor pretty immediately, versus us in our generation, like, we had to do so many, like, decades until we finally saw people that looked like us or believed in our same value systems, whatever. I feel like they're so fueled and they see more immediate impact with their activism than the slow outcomes of, of mine.

Mm. So I have a lot of optimism that they have already gone to Lowe's, bought all of the supplies- ... and they already f- have the blueprints- Yeah ... ready to start building. And, you know, they want me as an elder to come in and, like, maybe consult once in a while- ... but then basically tell me, "We got this." Yeah. "We just wanted to confirm this is what you were, you know, radically teaching us when we were- Yeah

in high school." Right. Right? Because you're o- one of the few elders that already, like, got it when we were young. Mm. Mm. And then I'm learning a lot from them, too, about things that I haven't kep- kept up with. Yeah. So there's a lot of optimism, and that's, that's exciting. And I, I rarely turn down mentorships- Mm

for young BIPOC public health professionals because, um, all of, all of my mentors were, were white men, 'cause it's all who I had, um, and in public health. And as that started to evolve and change, um, I'm excited to be able to pass down what I know to the, the little mes that are looking for, you know, similar support.

Mm-hmm. So optimistic is- Ah, so good ... overall, like, how I'm feeling, which is nice. Love that. So, like, I can die and it's gonna be in good hands. Yes. 'Cause I feel like it's, I'm already seeing the change now.

[00:15:25] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. It's so exciting to think about that, right? The places that they're gonna go to- specifically because they get to stand on the shoulders of giants, right?

And so knowing that they're already starting with this landscape, granted- Right ... it's really complex now. Right. Right? But, and it, it's always complex, but they get to stand on the shoulders of those giants and keep running further and further. And, and I think it's really important as educators or anybody in this space to acknowledge that my frame, my lens, all of our lenses are impacted by our cultural conditioning, our generational conditioning, and all of that.

And so I repeatedly tell people, like, there's absolutely gonna be some fiery liberatory activist who comes up and is like, "Hey, Dr. Nicole, you missed all of these parts." And I'll be like- Yeah ... "You're right." Yeah. "I absolutely did because I'm the product of my environment." And like- Yeah ... I'm trying every day, but Lord knows- Yeah

we're not gonna be at the end of that point where we figure it out. Yeah. And so the younger generations that can challenge us, that's so essential to this long-term work. Right. Right. Totally. And so when you think about that, that dream and that vision, in terms of sexuality specifically, what are you seeing?

[00:16:45] Justine: Um, I'm really appreciating this, this, uh, I don't even know if it would call it a trend, but I've been seeing multiple things as s- as I'm scrolling now about the unpopular experience of a girl having a boyfriend. Hmm. And I was like, "Whoa, what is this?" "Is this just like clickbait headliner?" And then I'm, like, reading this, I'm like, "Oh, this is, like, The Atlantic or something."

I'm, I'm really, like, impressed 'cause I, I, I didn't read the whole, all the articles, but the gist was saying that, like, it is so heteronormative, and that's now uncool that you are just some basic, like, straight girl after a straight boy. And, you know, we can unpack so many layers of that around orientation, around gender, but also, uh, just really appreciating that they're...

How I'm reading that, I hope, is that they're letting their instinctual desires lead them and not the scripts- Yeah ... that they have been taught or have been modeled to them. Mm-hmm. And that's super beautiful because we have way too many socially constructed structures that have been in place that just because someone in power made it up, we're supposed to follow it, and it's the cause of so much pain and, um, oppression.

So just, you know, reading- These headlines, I'm like, "Great." Yeah. I don't even wanna read the rest of this article. Yeah. It's about fucking time- Yeah ... that it was uncool to just do whatever the norms and scripts told us. Mm. Mm-hmm. So, um, where I'm seeing it go with sexuality is also really optimistic in that- Yeah

they really are seeing the spectrum of experiences that they can subscribe to- Right ... and not just the ones that we're told they have to. Ugh,

[00:18:53] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[00:18:54] Justine: And not out of also, like, spite or just to rebel, but really just like, "Why? That's stupid." Yeah. Right. Like, why- Right ... would you tell me I have to walk into that box just because this is what my genitalia looks like?

Mm-hmm. And so, you know, it's, it, it, it's just really, um, encouraging. Yeah. And it reminds me of, like, one of my early years teaching sex ed, I was already feeling encouraged, but it was, I think, just a special environment where it happened. I think I was doing some lesson on, like, you know, um, sexual attraction and orientation to- Mm-hmm

a group of sixth graders, and, you know, af- and I was very new. I was still in grad school in this work study. And at the end of the 45-minute session, one of the sixth grade boys was just like, "I don't get it." Mm. And I was like, "Oh, what do you mean?" Yeah. "Why is this even a lesson? Like, yeah, there are gay people, so what?"

And I was like, "Well, it's because, you know, they don't have the same rights as, you know, people who are straight, and we wanna make sure they're..." Like, yeah, but like, it's... What's the big deal? Like, love who you love. Why does anyone else care? Yeah, agree. And it was like a very fun- Um, it was a very fun, uh, resistance- Yeah

because I came from Catholic school. Yeah. I was raised in a Filipino household. Right. And, you know, here's a sixth grader. I hadn't even gotten sex ed yet in sixth grade in m- my upbringing, and I was like, "This is, like, the best response to my sex ed class, a waste of time." "This is so obvious. Like, why is this even a lesson that I am..."

I'm taking up space where they could be doing their robotics. Like, they already know sexuality is a spectrum. Why am I wasting this, you know, a l- 12-year-old's time? Absolutely. And I was just like, "Wow." And it was only my second year living in New York City. Wow. And so I was like, "Is this what New York City kids are like?"

Yeah. Wow, what's sex ed gonna be like if this is it? And, you know, I think, and I said that this was a special environment and school that I was at, so- Right ... of course I've reached a lot of resistan- met, met a lot of resistance. Right, right, right, right. And in New York City, but it was a, a really nice thing to happen early in my career- Oh

so that I wasn't... I had, like, a perspective of like- You're gonna chip away for a long time in some places, and in others, you're gonna be just skipping so far ahead- Yeah ... and be able to, like, live in the future now with certain groups- Mm-hmm ... when you live here in New York City. Mm-hmm. And, and that has definitely been the case- Mm

because I feel like I still have to go backwards in some states where I'm hired. Yes. And I'm like, "I'm not in New York City." Yes. And then I'm in New York City, and I'm getting slammed by the New York Post for teaching a lesson about boundaries to first-graders. So I mean, e- you know, it fluctuates, but having that sp- experience really early on was like- Good

"Oh, there is a glimmer of hope."

[00:22:00] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:22:01] Justine: And it was a nice way to get some immediate gratification of like, I'm not always going to be climbing uphill. Absolutely. Someone is gonna offer me a rest break every so often, and that's just what I'm experiencing right now with this 12-year-old. Yep. So fuel up, rest, recharge- Yeah

in this type of space, and maybe- Yeah ... you know, skip a few steps with this, 'cause now I know that these students can, can absorb more- Yep ... than the basics. But then also know it's not always gonna be like this.

[00:22:36] Dr. Nicole: Right. Absolutely. Such an essential point to talk about the different cultures, again, that we start- Yeah

in, and how that creates openness, uh, defensiveness- Mm-hmm ... right, all of the things to these topics. And so especially something that's so taboo, we have to be so conscious of, what is the conditioning of that person that's creating, uh, the responses? And so yeah, I can imagine how you're getting so many different reactions across different cultural containers, which is pretty state-specific in- Yeah

the United States, right? Right. And so I can imagine how deep that goes, and it is such an invitation, though, to remember and be hopeful about that. Yeah. And it was reminding me of the historical context that I would wanna provide. Even in my, in my training for my doctorate, there was one of my professors, Dr.

Paul Larson, who talked about how when he first came into the field as a gay man, homosexuality was still a disorder within the DSM. Mm. And so he's doing his clinical rotations terrified-

[00:23:37] Justine: Right. Right ...

[00:23:38] Dr. Nicole: that if I disclose this part of my identity- Right ... I could be legally reprimanded, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so I think as a person in that field, as a queer person, like, I forget that part of, right- Yeah

very recently, here's my professor, who was absolutely terrified when he was my age going into this field. And so, like, that child is like, "Why do we talk about it?" It's like, 'cause historically, America- Yeah ... and specifically- Yeah ... professional fields Yeah ... like the APA, have really weaponized sp- Yeah ... and that's, and keep asking those questions, kiddo.

Right. Right. What else are they weaponizing right now? Right Even if we put in the historical context of, um, the '90s when marital rape was outlawed in all- Yeah ... of the states, right? Until then, women were property that you could rape because they were an object, right? Right. If we go back to the 1970s with women getting the first access to credit cards, right?

Mm-hmm. These are huge things that... The '90s? That was 30 years ago. Yeah, yeah. The '70s? Yeah. 50 years?

[00:24:35] Justine: Yeah, yeah. I love the context that you're speaking to all of this because it felt refreshing that to this sixth grader, I should have framed this class as a history class. Mm. 'Cause it already was in the past to them.

Like, this is old news. I learned when I was five that I could have an uncle who's gay. Let's move on. Like, give me the next thing. And I had been under the assumption that this little New York City school- ... was still a little school in Alabama- Yeah ... where they needed, like, the fundamentals, and this is current, you know, contemporary issues and not- Yep

a history class.

[00:25:20] Dr. Nicole: Uh-huh. Absolutely. Yeah. Uh, even recently someone sent me a picture of... This is interesting. Um, it's an advertisement for, like, watches or something, and it was, like, discounts for everyone in your polycule. Whoa. And it had multiple w- I was like- Yeah ... wow. Okay, so we've hit the point that in- Yeah

like, this urban cityscape- ... we're advertising to polycules? Right, right. Okay. Like- Yeah ... things are happening. I've seen those on the subways in New York City. Yes? Yeah, yeah. Okay, okay. Now I have a feeling my clients in rural areas- Oh, yeah ... have not seen this. Or don't even know

[00:25:53] Justine: what the word means.

[00:25:56] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah.

Curious about your takes on the politics of that.

[00:26:02] Justine: Um, I, I'm, I don't feel like I know enough and am an expert enough to share it. Mm-hmm. I think, like, like, the politics of polycules or the advertising to polycules? Y-

[00:26:18] Dr. Nicole: yeah, I think, I'm thinking about the structural locations and the narratives. Like, why is that an ad in New York and not- Oh, I see

an ad in Iowa? Like, what are we looking at here in terms of our politics that makes that New York and not Iowa?

[00:26:31] Justine: Hmm. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think one is, like, the education and exposure to, let's say in this example, like, polycules is, tends to be different in terms of safety to be visibly in a polycule, and so you might see that more in New York, which therefore normalizes- Yep

it so that then if you see it as an ad, you're like, "Oh, yeah, I've seen that once," or, "I've heard of that once," or, "I'm in one," or, "My friend's in..." whatever it is, that it's not some, like, foreign thing. And- They obviously exist in Iowa, but it's probably unsafe to, unsafe emotionally or even physically, to market yourself as someone, you know, who is a part of it, and therefore the closeted polycules have a right to be.

And so if, if you were to advertise it there, I imagine it would turn a lot of heads on like, "Wait, what even is that?" Yeah. Because the education is lower. Um, the exposure is lower, um, because there's just not enough that is exposed to that type of education. Um, and so, like, I think logically I think it makes more sense versus it for me being, like, a political statement.

I think it makes sense to have s- ma- take some steps before people are, quote, "ready" to receive a certain marketing campaign that they can actually understand. Mm-hmm. Um, I think New York City will not always be responsible with how they will market certain things without seeing the repercussions of them.

For example, like, I've seen in New York City, uh, you know, a lot of different, like, plastic surgery ads for different, like, firms and practices. Um, but then instead of actually saying labiaplasty surgery, they'll call it vaginal rejuvenation. And not an ad I'll probably see in Iowa, so- Right ... but it doesn't automatically make New York City then the healthier, better- No

place just because they have that. Right. It's more like, what are you selling here? And politically, what are you trying to leverage? Mm-hmm. Oh, you tr- are trying to use this capitalist city- Yeah ... in the farthest extent- Mm-hmm ... by further emphasizing the beauty standards that are so unrealistic, but realistic if you pay this money to completely- Yeah.

change your body. Ugh. Here's how to do it. Yeah. Not all marketing, just because it exists, automatically means that there's a health in it. No. But particularly on, like, the polycule a- ads that I've just seen, it's more like StreetEasy or, like, Zillow will be advertising- Mm ... like, start looking for a new- apartment, or no, is it, or what was it?

Like, um, the only way you can afford in New York is to have a polycule or something. Right? So- And so, like, that's how they'll use it. And for me, I'm like, "This is just true." And, like, sure, I'm sure they're just wanting to use these buzzwords to hit- ... a New York City, like, like liberal, like, agenda or whatever.

But also it's hilarious and not wrong. Um, and won't work in Iowa. Right. But, um, but yeah. So I feel like- ... sometimes it's great, sometimes it's not.

[00:30:13] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah, absolutely. And it reminds me a lot of my, um, work in the psychedelic space, right? There's so much, um, "Oh my God, psychedelics are healing. They're so therapeutic.

They're so this. They're so amazing. They're so amazing." And the reality is you can do lots of psychedelics and spiritually bypass so much of the growth that comes with that. You can do psychedelics and be really entrenched in certain ideological views and never get challenged by them. Yeah. Extremist groups take psychedelics and go deeper into it.

Mm-hmm. And so we have this view that like, oh, yeah, sure, you've got the polycule. That doesn't mean you're actually doing it in all the ethical ways, right? Right. That are complex to that. Right. Just m- as much as psychedelics. And so getting into the nuance of some of these things is that, like, it's really messy, and there's messy humans everywhere.

Oh my God, yeah. Every identity. Yeah, totally. Like queer people, poly, e- everyone- Everyone ... has the work to do. Yeah.

[00:31:03] Justine: Um- And people are mis- are, are abusing also, like, the... They're abusing what that term or what that identity means to just further serve their individual needs, and then put that on their dating app profile like they're some, like, super progressive, open-minded-

you know, ethical person.

[00:31:28] Dr. Nicole: Right, right, right, right, right. And then enacts a one penis policy, you know? Like it's like the- Yeah ... oh,

[00:31:33] Justine: wow,

[00:31:34] Dr. Nicole: wow.

[00:31:34] Justine: Like, the number of inethical ethical monogamists I know. Oh, for sure, sure, sure. You know? I'm just like, "Don't even label yourself that. I know you." Sure.

[00:31:45] Dr. Nicole: Which is fascinating, 'cause, um, one of the representatives from Ashley Madison came on the show.

Mm-hmm. And I had so much thoughts about that. I was like, "Do I, do I engage in this convers- do, do I..."

[00:31:55] Justine: You have to. Do I... Like,

[00:31:57] Dr. Nicole: right. Well, that's what all my friends were like, "Journalistically, Nicole- ... go for it." And I was like, "Ah," but my values of ethics, you know? It is interesting. More recently they've, like, expanded their dating site to people who are open, right?

Mm-hmm. So it's not just unethical. Mm-hmm. It's also, like, people who are consciously choosing that. Mm-hmm. So that's a new rebranding for them that they're working through. But- Wow ... anyhow, I found the most important piece of this to be that they have the capital to pay therapists and researchers to do infidelity research and all of that sort of stuff.

Yeah, yeah. 'Cause there's a capitalistic incentive for them. So, like- Yeah ... in a society that doesn't fund research, I am super curious, what are y'all seeing around the world? 'Cause that's a global site. What do you see? And it was fascinating. He was like, "Well- In France, there's no market for this because that culture already has this incorporated understanding of multiple sexual dynamics as a part of your lifestyle.

Wow. And so in France, no one's signing up. Wow. And then, you know, in the States, you know what state has the highest level of users? You wanna take a guess?

[00:32:54] Justine: Um, let me narrow it down by region first. Is it the South? Mm, mm-mm. Whoa. See, I would've already gotten it wrong. Um,

New York? Utah. Oh, that makes sense. Repression, repression, repression. I, I, I forget- ... I forget there's another South. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the Midwest? Yeah. I literally always forget, like- Or this is West. Yeah. Yeah. This is the coastal elite in me. I'm just like, oh, South? That just means South. But I'm like, no, everyone in between.

Mm-hmm.

[00:33:36] Dr. Nicole: So Utah, right? Utah. Yeah. One of the most- That tracks, yeah ... Mormonism. My family has, is Mormon. My mother is Mormon. Uh-huh. Right? Like, I'm, I'm right there in terms of me getting out of that lifestyle. Yeah. Um, and so Utah is the highest user base of people seeking unethical, non-consensual, non-monogamous dynamics.

So yeah- Wow ... I have lots of questions about how in New York, yeah, here's the apartment for your polycule, here's the watch for your polycule. Yeah. And then in Utah, we have the highest rates? Yeah. Like, d- literally, I'm gonna say this word intentionally. God forbid you actually do that in the light.

[00:34:17] Justine: Mm. I see, I see, I see.

I'm starting to understand your initial question now better. Do I have a revised answer?

It's fascinating. I mean, I think that goes into, like, the psychology of marketing- Mm-hmm ... and maybe less on the politics, because I just don't trust politics to be health and education- Mm-hmm ... anyway. Yeah, that's really interesting. Yeah. Right. I'm gonna have to let that one simmer.

[00:34:54] Dr. Nicole: Right. 'Cause we see, we see this differentiation between more urban spaces and more rural spaces.

Yeah. Yeah. So something is happening there in terms of, I like to think maybe exposure to different worldviews- Right ... and how that expands your consciousness of what's possible. You work through the levels of acculturation, which maybe starts with potentially disgust, fear, whatever, X, Y, Z negative response.

You have that one friend who's in a polycule. You work through all your judgment. That one friend who's queer, right? Like, you work through all of that judgment, and then maybe get to a space of more openness. You keep seeing it, all this stuff, right? In a more rural space- you're not seeing that, right? And so you're not getting into that expansion.

And so I'm, I'm thinking about like, like density, like truly density. Yeah. Like, we see this in bigger cities, right? And so there is something happening- Yeah ... there. Right. Right. Right.

[00:35:47] Justine: I mean, that, that is, that is why I've chosen to, to root in New York City- Yes ... and why I've been so happy here for 15 years is because even though it is a city that has so many transplants, as a result of that, there's just so much beautiful flow of difference that's coming in and out constantly, quickly, and it's always changing.

It's, it's like going to a restaurant that has a different menu every day. Right. So you're just always going to be, um, surprised, nourished in a new way, and expand your thinking in a new way all the time because it's different than the day before. Mm-hmm. And then others who love and crave that same diversity are gonna be surrounding you to have that meal with you, and you get to unpack that with each other as, you know, often or as little as you'd like.

And I, I really love that because it's, it's really... To my parents, it's made me some extremist. And they're in California- Right ... but it's even still not as diverse as New York City. Oh, yeah. And, and I think that's why, yeah, I think it, it, it's created such a, a beautiful type of like kindness, but like an efficient kindness- Mm

that can be interpreted as rude to people. Mm. But we're, like, efficiently kind. Mm. Like, no bullshit, like, you're walking way too slow carrying that mattress. Just give it to me. I'll do it for you. But I'm gonna do it for you 'cause I know. I've been that. I have moved apartments in the rain before- Yeah ... from that block to that block.

So, like, we're efficiently kind. And, um, and when you see that with, you know, sexualities, with professions, with body types, with ethnicities, like, you're seeing that constantly in New York, and it's just, it, it normalizes diversity here. Yeah. That then we can see a Polycule ad and be like, "Yeah, I've seen it.

I know it." Yeah. "Or I'm proximate to it." Mm-hmm. "And therefore I don't have a fear of that- Mm-hmm ... even if it's not something I am, you know- Right ... a part of myself." Right. And I really love that, and I, I wish more of the world got to experience that taste of New York City- Right ... because it's, it's really healing, and it's really affirming And obviously, you know, opening Yep.

[00:38:31] Dr. Nicole: Yep. And at first it might be really intense, right? Mm-hmm. Like, it's like a high-dose psychedelic. If you've never- Totally ... seen that kind of expansion-

[00:38:38] Justine: Yeah ...

[00:38:38] Dr. Nicole: you get dropped in, you're like, "Wow, the walls are melting. I see queer content everywhere." Yeah. "What is happening?" Yeah. And that's when- Yeah ... like people rebound and really shut down into safety, right?

Right. And so, uh, it's like how do we bring that, that space of that message, that conversation in ways that can open people up? These are great conversations. What I think about is how liberation is found when we have a multitude of options, right? Mm-hmm. When we think about the long work that feminists have done and are continuing to do, because wow, um, the choice to not have children.

Yep. We are still actively doing work in this country- Mm-hmm ... with Roe v. Wade and the whole situation- Mm-hmm ... to have the right, the respect, the care for that. Wow. And there's so much work that feminists have done to create space for a lot of people who decide to be child-free, right? Yeah. And so that liberation comes when we're able to say, "I could choose this path- Yeah

of child-free life, and I'm not gonna be criticized. I'm not gonna be- Yeah ... ostracized from all of my people, from my community." Now, the reality is with the sexual spaces, whether it's queerness, whether it's kink, whether it's polyamory, whether it's any of that, we currently don't have a culture where you could choose that and be accepted, which means the liberation work is still here.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like, we still need so much more liberation work where when, when you see the polycule, someone doesn't go, "I could never do that 'cause I'm jealous." I want the response to be like, "I don't want that in my life." Mm-hmm. It's possible, but I don't want that time and energy in my life, right? Yeah.

Um, all of the, "I don't wanna be queer 'cause I could- couldn't do it from my parents." No, the response would be like, "I'm just not queer," right? Uh-huh. Right. Right. Like, this liberation work, 'cause then we know that if we put that sort of ad in Utah, they'd be like, "What is that? I must go to the church or the temple," right?

Yep. The temple. The Mormon Temple- Yep ... to pray for that.

[00:40:33] Justine: Right. Right. Pray in a way that is, I already feel guilty even just having read it and being exposed to it, and there's al- what do I do with all this shame and guilt and Yeah. No, I love New York City 'cause it's- Ah ... not-

[00:40:50] Dr. Nicole: I love Chicago for that too ... not.

I love Chicago for that too. It's safety. Yeah. It's so much more safety. And, and even then- Yeah ... you know, you're still battling through specific things, especially the field of clinical psychology. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, but there's so much more capacity, and we know that we're relational beings. Mm-hmm. And so our, our wellbeing is found in community, in connection.

And so if there is a part of yourself that if you bring that into the table you might fear being cut off, that's one of the deepest psychological fears, right, is, uh, being ostracized from the community. And so the, these pieces that we're still working for, it comes into very deeply unconscious evolutionary needs around survival.

Yeah. And so, yeah, I'm not gonna- Totally ... I'm not gonna go to that play party, 'cause what happens if this happens? What happen... Like, there's so much unconscious risk that exists both in the mind and the body- Mm-hmm ... that happens.

[00:41:46] Justine: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's real.

[00:41:51] Dr. Nicole: I gotta take a deep breath for that one. Yep. Yep.

Sometimes as a host I'm always like, "Next topic," right? But it's like, that's, that's something to breathe into, how much- Yeah ... that's impacting all of us- Mm-hmm ... in unconscious ways.

[00:42:05] Justine: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:10] Dr. Nicole: And so when you think about your expertise, your wisdom, a lot of people have asked me on the podcast, how do I talk about this with children? Now, I feel tapped out at that level because I work with adults. I have lots of clients who are adults. I work with many therapists who come to see me for this work.

Like, I don't work with kids. What my working understanding is is how we bring in discussions of pleasure that are age-appropriate. Yeah. So maybe if you're, like, combing your child's hair, like asking them, "How does this feel for you? Is there anything I could do that could make this feel better?" Like, bringing, like, just pleasure conversations around bodily autonomy and consent.

Yeah. But I'm curious with your expertise, like, how do you see having those conversations? I know that's a huge question, but, like, what are some of the wisdom pieces that you've learned in your work?

[00:43:01] Justine: Yeah. Um, that kids love talking about pleasure. And they might not use that term, but they have plenty of synonyms, and they have plenty of lived experiences, fortunately, where they can understand that what I'm trying to convey to them around pleasure is something that they need to now start applying as a way to assess their friendships and their- Mm-hmm

relationships, and if they conjure the same type of joy, fun, happiness that this example they came up with To share with the class, you know, is real. Mm-hmm. So it might be something like I- and a lot of it is really, like, naming and giving them vocabulary and language around pleasure. Mm. I really never use the term pleasure- Mm

because it's, again, not, not, it, it's not developmentally, um, aligned with where they're at, but they know fun, they know happy- Yeah ... they know joy. Yeah. Um, and so, or, or if they can't describe it, I push on to ask them, like, "It's really cold out, right? And you got your, you got your mittens on, you got your, your beanie on, you have your puffer jacket, you have your wool socks, but your face is still exposed 'cause you're not wearing a face mask, and you have this blizzard that you're going through, but you finally make it inside your apartment, and your parent hands you a hot cocoa in your favorite mug.

When you take a sip of that, how do you feel?" Mm. And, like, immediately their face is just light up- Yeah ... and like, but the... And they're not saying, "Pleasure," right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're saying, "I feel calmer. I feel happy. I feel relaxed. I feel excited." Um, you know, whatever it is, and I'm like, "But you know that feeling that you have, that sense of, you know, yearning for, for this, but you're out, like, you know, trudging through the snow, and you finally get that hot cocoa.

You have this feeling, right? Now tell me what you're thinking about when that happens." It's like, "Oh, it reminds me of when I had hot cocoa with my best friend, you know, at our birthday party. It reminds me during Christmas where I have it with my family." I'm like, "And how do those moments make you feel when you think about that?"

And they're like, "Well, happy 'cause I'm with my best friend or happy 'cause I'm with my family. Um, you know, like, everyone was laughing and blah, blah, blah." I'm like, "That, my friends, is the adult word pleasure." And then we'll get other examples like, you know, and I'll, I'll set the scene of like, "You've, you're holding in your pee in this car ride- Yeah

for a whole hour, and your parent says that there is no exit for another 30 minutes. What's happening in your body right now?" And then it's like, "Well, you're, I'm moving around a lot. I'm like, I have my hands around my tummy, and I'm trying to squeeze my legs together so it doesn't come out. I'm, like, really, like, anxious and da, da, da, da, da, da, da, oh, whatever."

Okay. You finally pull up at a gas station, and then you get into that bathroom, and then what do you feel when you finally let it out and you can finally pee? And they all like, without even me saying, they all like- ... just, like, release- This f- this audible gasp, right? Yeah. And I'm like, "Whoa. What's this sound you're all making now?"

And then they're like, "Well, it's just like relieved." And I'm like, "That's also pleasure." And so like I'm giving just them all of these examples that they've already had, and then giving them vocabulary. Now, we transition. We have all these examples of this adult big kid word named pleasure. What does this have to do with our friendships?

Mm. Are these people that you're playing with, do they give you that same feeling, that hot cocoa feeling, that relief feeling, that joy, that happiness- Mm ... that laughter feeling? And in what ways could they show that to you? "Well, like when I'm having a hard time they'll, you know, talk to me, they'll hang out with me, or they do my favorite hobbies with me."

And what does it feel like when you need those things but they give you the opposite of that? Mm. What does the opposite of that feel like? And they're like, "Well, they're mean to me. They don't let me play. They don't invite me. They say something rude." And I'm like, "Is that what a friend does? Let's define what a friend is."

So it's really a vocabulary lesson-

[00:48:00] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:48:00] Justine: to attach to experiences they've already had. Right. And then it turns into a f- relationship assessment. Is your relationship healthy? And like we're doing this in first grade classrooms. Mm. Obviously, I can do the same thing in a seventh grade classroom. The examples are just slightly different.

Right. We've already known to be doing this in high school classrooms around, you know, sexual abuse prevention in their- Right ... relationships. Domestic violence, when we're talking about, you know, you know adult couples. Like, all of this is- Yeah ... you know, developmentally congruent. It's just how do you talk about it to a six-year-old versus a 16-year-old versus- Right

a 36-year-old? But Fox News is scared of the word pleasure- ... and kids. Yeah. And I'm like, "I'm talking about hot cocoa and having to pee really badly, and that's what you're canceling me for?" Did that happen? Oh, yeah. It happened bad. It happened bad. Um, you can- Damn ... Google my name, New York Times- Shit ... and that's the real narrative.

Shit. But it all started because of a 11th grade lesson I gave about pornography literacy, and a first grade lesson that I gave around body awareness and, um, and genitals. And parents thought, "You're teaching first graders how to masturbate, and you're wasting 11th graders' time talking about showing porn when they should be studying for the AP History exam."

Um, and that was enough for- All of Fox News and the alt-right to bash me for a year, which led to my resignation at the school that I was a director of health and wellness for for nine years, uh, which led to my freelance career, which is how you ended up learning of me because of the work I've been doing as a small business owner now.

Wow. But that's what I was teaching. And that's what I'm still teaching, but now just on my own terms- Yeah ... calling my own shots- Wow ... in schools that are ready to back

[00:50:05] Dr. Nicole: up that curriculum. Oh. Wow. The listeners could not see my face and how much my jaw was dropped- ... during that entire li- I was like, "No." I'm so glad- I know

that you're doing the work that you're doing. It's so needed, and it's such a reflection of, um, the long history of feminists getting in trouble.

[00:50:26] Justine: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. This is old news. This is old news. Mm-hmm. I just happened to be the target of 2021. Yeah.

[00:50:34] Dr. Nicole: And let's be clear, the research shows masturbation typically occurs can- really young ages.

Oh. We know, like, two to six- Yep ... but even younger in just terms of touching body- Yep ... not necessarily full masturbation, but touching body and genitals and feeling- Yep ... pleasure. And so I- Yep ... I find it really fascinating how people are like, "Oh my God, not the children." But it's like- Yep ... we n- we scientifically know.

[00:50:56] Justine: This is normal. Yeah. Right. This is normal, and it's not sexual most of the time. Right. It's curiosity. Right. It's adjusting to not having a diaper anymore. It's a new sensation in their growing body of a zipper touching it versus, you know, like, I mean, like, I mean, little, little babies are getting erections when their diaper is being changed simply because there's touch involved.

Has nothing to do with this three-month-old being turned on by their babysitter. They have no awareness of what's happening. It's just their body responding like a human. Mm-hmm. That's it, right? But adults are just so cringe around kids and their normal bodily functions, automatically not empathizing with a kid's body, but empathizing as if this kid is a full adult- Mm

and then remembering they're not an adult, and then therefore- Mm ... calling it inappropriate. Mm. Mm. You know? Mm-hmm. Like, even just, like, their, their s- parents are so scared of the where do babies come from question because they're not rememing- remembering that their child is a child asking a geography question, whereas this adult is thinking about- intercourse after a date, after a bottle of wine, and many other adult things in their answer.

It's like, hold on, this child is just asking a geography question. That's it. Babies come from a uterus. Mm-hmm. End of story. You know what their next question is gonna be? When's lunch? Right. Can I go and play my Legos now? Right. But they're, they're, they're hyperbolizing their answer suited for another adult that they think they have to tell a six-year-old.

That's not what this is. You're talking to a six-year-old, think about what a six-year-old is thinking about only- Right. Right ... and their world. Mm-hmm. But, um, it's, you know, it's just so uncomfortable for people where, you know, they would rather just attack that situation and call it inappropriate, predatory, pedophilic, which is a complete misuse of those terms because this very type of education is exactly what prevents predators- Right

from predating because now they are confronted with a child that actually knows how their body works. Oh, yeah. And they're empowered by knowing its functions and being able to name what parts they have, so should you ever dare touch it without their permission, they'll know exactly what to tell their trusted adult- Yeah

because they know exactly the part you touched that you were not supposed to touch- Yeah ... 'cause they did not allow you to touch it. And we know that sexual predators have said, "These are the kids I can't predate." Right. Because they're not vulnerable, they're empowered. Mm-hmm. Yes. And yet education around this to protect children is being called sexual predation.

Mm-hmm. Um, hence meaning me having to resign from my school. And me being many of so many teachers that are doing this important work and being compromised as a, as a result, which just further empowers the predators because there are less educators who are able to do this work. Mm-hmm. Because they're afraid of their principals, of their parent community, of Fox News canceling them.

Yep. Yep. Yep. The politics. Remember when I said I was a tired sex educator? Ah! Oh. All that. But

[00:54:57] Dr. Nicole: I love, I love it. I love that fire because it's so needed. I've- I've had conversations on this podcast with other sex, um, Soleil, who is a sex therapist who got fired from their job from doing sex education with a puppet- Mm

and literally was told, told that that was inappropriate, fired immediately on the spot. It was a big corporate... Like, similar- Yeah ... I mean, the amount of stories of sex educators who repeatedly have to face these larger systemic pieces and then ultimately end up creating their own ecosystem- Yep ... because these systems are so...

That is a huge part of the journey of anyone in this space- Yeah ... and going, "Wow, I walked into a few of those bureaucratic red tapes." Yep. "Holy shit," right? Yep. And so you gotta create your own space, and it's so, it's so wild to think about how wise and perceptive children are because the beginning of shame and repression, all that stuff starts right there.

And that's not to say- Mm-hmm ... that it's permanent, right? Like, you're- Right ... proof of that, I'm proof of that, that you can absolutely work through those upbringings and change to a different space.

[00:56:03] Justine: Yeah.

[00:56:03] Dr. Nicole: However, when your parent comes to you s- say you're someone with a vulva, right? And you're a child asking, "Well, what, what are my parts?

What are my parts?" And you go, "Oh, those are your private parts. We don't talk about that." That whisper, that moment of there, of the shame, that is the beginning. Yep. And children attune to what is around them. And so, um, when you're able to come in as a parent and say, "This is your labia. This is your clitoris," right?

"These are parts that you- Mm ... are yours and other people don't touch," right? Like, that, as you're saying, is what's empowering them, and it's already beginning that space where they don't- Yeah ... feel the shame because you're right, a predator comes in and now there's all this, "Well, we don't talk about those parts," so this thing happened to this part we don't talk about.

[00:56:47] Justine: Yep. Yep. Yes. It seems so obvious, and yet so hard for adults to, many adults to just accept. And th- their own shame around this and their own repression around this, without saying they're oppressed, repressed, or shameful around it, just gets passed down from their tone- Yeah ... their avoidance, their own body language and lack thereof around, you know, uh, something that is just so normal and human- Mm-hmm

and is the cause of so much pain- Mm-hmm ... if, you know, if it's really not addressed in the way that it should be, which is normalized.

[00:57:37] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And this is where, again, my work in psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy really comes to the forefront because these are deeper questions about bodily autonomy.

Yeah. And so what we do know is that research shows harm reduction- Drug education prevents overdoses, right? It prevents that sort of use. And so when we are withholding that sort of education out of fear that it will promote more children using drugs, what we're actually doing is creating the circumstances where they have no education around this, right?

Yeah. And the reality is there are many drugs that are legal, including alcohol, a huge one that many children drink too much to overdose, excess- Yeah ... ending up in the hospitals. There's a car... right? Right. Like, the whole list, right? And so the, the need for drug education across so many different, um, capacities there.

We see other countries which have normalized different drug use and given that education, and we see less rates of drug use- Mm-hmm ... right? And so it's like these areas of bodily autonomy, whether it's sexuality or the drugs that we're putting in our body, where we have such restricted narratives of what is possible, and it's ultimately leading to even more harm, right?

Yeah. Rather than going into the center of the issue and say, "Hey, people use drugs." Blow your mind. Yeah. Just gonna blow your mind right now. Yeah. People use drugs. Don't forget, alcohol used to be one of the forbidden ones for a good time in America. Like- Yeah ... people use drugs. How do we do that safely?

People have sex. People have genitals. People want to play. They want to have pleasure. Yeah. How do we do that safely?

[00:59:16] Justine: Right. Right.

[00:59:20] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And so the burnout, let's talk about that. Yes. When I get burnt out, my libido is out. It is no longer present. I don't wanna fuck. Yeah. I just wanna lay down. I wanna be held by my partners and- Yeah

given some chocolate. I don't know. Yeah. How do you, like, deal with that level of burnout in your own eroticism?

[00:59:45] Justine: Yeah. How do I deal with that? I start looking for other jobs. Um, and I think, like, I never thought about it in this way, so I'm, I'm really glad you're asking me 'cause it's super timely. Mm-hmm. I- I've been burnt out for a while, but I think I've only started to do something actively about it because I am relying on my libido to make a child, and I've never wanted to make a child until this year.

Mm-hmm. Um, and now that I'm like, "Okay, I have a new, like, goal in my life, which is to become a parent"- If I want to do that, what are the ways? Okay, I can do that with intercourse. I can do that with IVF. I can do that with... Wait a minute, I need a libido working for any- Mm ... of this. Yep. I need energy. I need desire.

I need drive. Yeah. I need interest. Yeah. And I don't have time for any of that, or there's none of it left because it's being completely consumed in this, in this taxing job that I've chosen, ironically, in sex. Yeah. Um, and so I was like, "Okay, well, you've always been burnt out, but now it matters- Yeah

because it's impacting your ability to, um, actually create a family now that you're ready for it and want it." And so, um, it has, you know, it's, it, there's been, there's been stress, uh, around, you know, should I leave it completely? Should I do a little bit of other things? 'Cause I'm clearly passionate still, but I don't know if I have enough fuel- Mm

to sustain it anymore, but I wanna do a little bit. What is something that can sustain me? Well, I have- Mm-hmm ... you know, other pleasures, and I have other interests. Maybe I can start tapping some of those that aren't as, um, you know, hard on my body, like- Yeah ... the, you know, speaking tours that I'll be on, that I'll have to fly and be out of town for, um, or the longterm projects that, um, you know, are just so time-consuming and very, like, academic and not maybe as social.

So I'm, like, starting to trim, um, with the different ways I can still be a sex educator that isn't through traditional settings of speaking, being in a classroom, training, facilitating, designing curriculum. Yeah. And so my answer to the burnout is keep a foot in sex education, but start to explore other ways that that one foot can be present.

Yeah. And start looking at some other things that Justine Engfontes is about- Yeah ... that's not just as a sex educator. And maybe she will, um, return to a vibrancy and a vitality- ... that she might have, that might awaken- Yeah ... my eggs in a way- Yeah ... that, you know, is positive. So, you know, a lot of that has, is super recent, um, in, in wanting to do that.

And I think, you know, now having already had my first miscarriage is another reminder of, like, okay, see? So the plumbing works. Yay. Mm. But what are you still not doing in your life- Right ... to create the peace and the pleasure- That are required to host this embryo for nine months. And so I'm like, "Okay, Justine."

Inside Justine, I- I'm listening- Yeah ... and I'm gonna try to do something about this. Oh, yeah. So, um, been, been, uh, been on indeed.com- Yeah ... and just seeing, like, what is out there in the world that, um, I can monetize from skills, skills that I already have. Right. So that's how I've been, um, uh, addressing the burnout.

No- I mean, this is so brand new, and maybe when this, you know, episode comes out, I'll already have, like, executed on a lot of these. Yes, yes. That would be awesome. Yes. Let's speak it into existence. Um, right. But, but, you know, uh, I'm, I'm a public speaker. I am, um, someone who loves therefore to either emcee events- Mm-hmm

or host events, or, uh, be, you know, the face and voice behind, um, other events, or be, you know, behind the audiobook. So I'm just like, all right, it might have nothing to do with sex ed- Yeah ... but maybe it's, you know, something else that requires a dynamic, charismatic voice about something that isn't maligned with my values- Mm, mm-hmm

but not sex education work. Right. I've, I've been a maid of honor three times. I've been an emcee at a wedding three times. Maybe I should just be a bridesmaid for hire- Wow. Yeah ... on the side. You know? Maybe I'll just become, like- ... you know, Adam Sandler wedding, you know- Oh ... emcee that have senior.

[01:05:08] Dr. Nicole: What's the Hourly rate,

[01:05:09] Justine: yeah. You know, I'm like, I can do those things.

[01:05:12] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And,

[01:05:13] Justine: you know, I can do them super well. Yeah. I've just done it for cousins and best friends. Right, right, right. So I didn't make money off of that- ... but maybe I should. So, you know, I'm, like, looking at all different types- Yeah ... of options.

Yeah. Uh, just to, like, keep my spirit alive and re- be reminded, like, not everything has to be centered on sex ed, even though I've tried to make my life

[01:05:35] Dr. Nicole: that way. On it. Right. Absolutely. And so the dreaming, the possibilities- Mm-hmm ... the creativity, I mean, that's eros, right? That life force connection, the possibilities.

Right. And it sounds like there's something I, I've definitely talked a lot about on the podcast, that concept of how your pleasure evolves over time- Yeah. Yeah ... and also the grief with that. You know, the, the exploration- Mm-hmm ... wow, so much joy, this ever-evolving relationship to pleasure. Right. And every day it's new.

And also the grief where you're like- Wow, I used to... This, whether it was a fantasy, a job, a relationship, right? This type of sex that you're having. Like, there was this thing that turned me on for so long, and where I'm at in the here and the now, it's not aligned anymore. And you have to grieve that part of yourself, 'cause there's, there's scenes I used to have that turned me on so much.

And I would love to have that level of just, you know, like, when coming from purity culture, anything around sexuality was so charged.

[01:06:34] Justine: Right. And like,

[01:06:34] Dr. Nicole: I loved how turned on I... Wow.

[01:06:37] Justine: Mm.

[01:06:38] Dr. Nicole: However, I don't love what came with all that. You know what I mean? No, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. But like, there's a grief process where, like- Yeah, yeah

when you study sex every single day- Yeah ... when I hear about something, when I watch porn, my first thoughts aren't always like, "Wow, hot." It's like, theoretical research and how does this apply to my... Like, there's a- Yeah ... grief process- Right. I know ... for what that is. Yeah. And so, like, for you it's like this e- evolving conversation where you're thinking about, like, what is that next door so that I can find balance in my life?

Yeah. 'Cause you've gone to such a depth with this work that so many people will never understand.

[01:07:09] Justine: Yeah.

[01:07:10] Dr. Nicole: And also, where is your next balance? And as you're saying, your body is this space where you're wanting to carry another human being and having that ecosystem. For myself, I've been so, so passionate about this work.

I'm like, I'm working unhealthy amount of hours. Let's just name that. I love what I do, but like, this is... I'm in a very classic early stage of a career. Wow, so go. And also, I've been struggling with BV.

[01:07:33] Justine: Mm.

[01:07:34] Dr. Nicole: Re- recurrent BV, and the doctors keep telling me, like, "Stress is a huge part of this, Nicole. Are you relaxed?"

Yeah. And I'm like- Yeah. ... "Well, I love working around sexuality, yet here I am working so hard in it that my own pussy is saying- Yep ... 'Absolutely not. No one's going in there.'" Yep. So I'm like, "No!" Yep. Yep. No. Oh, shit, right? Yeah. So like, wanting to have the baby, wanting to have the- Yeah ... penetration. It's like I have to take my own medicine, which is like, where is the balance in this work?

I can't- Yeah ... you can't just work yourself so hard to the bone for the activism of all the world of what we need.

[01:08:09] Justine: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:08:10] Dr. Nicole: Oh.

[01:08:13] Justine: Yeah. The burnout is real.

[01:08:16] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:08:17] Justine: The burnout is real.

[01:08:19] Dr. Nicole: And I can still do a lot with my clit, right? That's the big thing- Yeah ... I've been going through- Yeah ... is like I don't need penetration right now, but that clit is great.

It's got a lot of capacity.

[01:08:26] Justine: You know, like, you brought up something around like, uh, I, I think when you were saying when you were watching porn you're like, "Okay-" Yeah ... "theoretical, th- theoretical frameworks," and- And the same way with like al- like not just sitting in an entertainment and being entertained by it, but intellectualizing it and figuring out, how can I use this in a curriculum, right?

I know, I know. Do, do something with it. It's just like, Justine, just watch the damn movie. I know, I know. And not like how you're going to unpack it with your students for a media literacy lesson. And in that same way, literally on Sunday, which was four days ago, I was at a pleasure parts and crafts, um, workshop.

Cool. And it was like a holiday edition that my friend was, uh, running, and so had all of these art supplies. And we were supposed to like... Not supposed to, but we were invited to, you know, use any of these supplies and, um, you know, maybe, you know, build your own vulva. Yeah. Build your own, like, clitoris.

Build your own whatever you want, but here's, like, felt. Here's pipe cleaner. Here's glitter glue. Um, like those, uh, w- those, what is it? Those wobbly eyeballs- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... kind of things. Like jingle bells. There's so many different thingies. And so, you know, and then she had her template of like, for example, here's how I made, you know, this vulva.

And, um, so everyone's working on them. Even my own partner was, like, building this beautiful vulva to put on top of the tote bag that we were gifted. And then another friend was making, um, brooches for- Yeah ... for her and her wife. Um, and I was like looking. I'm like, "Oh." A- and I'm artistic in a different way.

Totally. Not in this way. Yep. But I'm, like, looking. I'm like, "God, I don't know what to make. I don't know what to make." And then she, like, taught us, like, "Well, if you want, here's pipe cleaner. Here's how I, how I make a, a cl- clitoris out of it." And so she does it or whatever, and she goes, "And this would be really cute, you know?

You can put it right on top of your, um, like, Christmas gifts, and it can be kind of your ribbon." Oh my gosh. And then when she said that, I was like, "Oh, caregiving? Gift giving? Doing something for something for other people instead of for myself? I know that really well. I'm just gonna make up a whole bunch of pipe cleaner cl- cl- clits for my gift wrapping."

So everything I'm making will not stay with me- Mm ... and is not for me. Mm. I'm immediately making it- Mm ... and now have this drive and this motivation- Mm ... and an incentive to please others with the literal clits that I'm making- ... for not myself. Yeah. And I made 14, Dr. Nicole. Wow. Which wa- it was very fast, but I'm- what I'm saying is everyone else made one or two for themself at this pleasure crafts session, and I could not think of anything just to make for myself because it was pleasing to me.

The only thing that pleased me was to make A gift tool for somebody else. Yeah. I'm like, "What the fuck is wrong with me?" Yeah.

[01:11:39] Dr. Nicole: It all hits at that moment. You're like, "Whoa. It's here."

[01:11:44] Justine: Ugh. Like, one of my best friends will gift me thank you cards- ... like, blank thank you cards- ... because she's like, "You don't, you never like anything that I give you, but I know that what will make you really happy is buying you expensive thank you cards, because you love giving thank you cards to people."

Yeah. But you gotta spend the money at Papyrus for it, because it's Papyrus. Yeah. So let me gift you- Wow ... with cards you're gonna give someone else. Wow. And I, and when she gave this to me, I was like, "Oh my God, I love this gift." Yeah, you did. Of course. I'm just like, "What the fuck is wrong with me?" Oh. Why can't I just receive- Mm

and have this for myself? Mm. And there was another instance, a friend of mine was like, "Jacine, you need to think of something that is just for you." Yeah. I was like, "Yeah, yeah. I signed up for a leather wallet making, like, crafternoon." And he's like, "Okay." So I did it. I made two cute wallets, and, um, uh, and he's like, "No, no, no."

And he was there with me, and he's just like... I, initially I was gonna make, "Oh, I think I wanna make a clutch." Yeah, yeah, yeah. "That'll be a really cute gift for, for my cousin." Right. Yeah. And he goes, "No. Make something for yourself." And I was like, "But I don't need anything." And he goes, "You're just, you don't need to keep it.

You just need to do this exercise and build something for yourself. This is you being here for yourself." And like, it was so hard, but I was like, "Okay, okay, okay. I'll make a business card holder." No. My business cards. Oh, no. And that was the closest I could get to making something- No ... for me. Mm-hmm. So I have two rinky-dink, you know, leather- Amazing.

wallet business card holders that I made. But without him, like, pushing- Yeah ... I would've ended ma- making clutches for all my cousins. Right. Right. Right. And it's just like you're already doing this crafternoon session for yourself- Mm-hmm ... to decompress, to relax, just have fun, get to know strangers in this New York City workshop, and again, you're there to work, to give to somebody else.

And it's just, it's so ingrained in me, like my gift-giving language is so strong that it's now become my pleasure, where like, I love gift giving- Yeah ... but I won't gift to myself. Mm.

[01:14:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. It's the pattern, right? You've done that for so many years of your life, right? And so, you know, in this podcast space, I've loved asking people what they would say to their younger self.

[01:14:35] Justine: Mm-hmm.

[01:14:36] Dr. Nicole: And in this moment, I feel an invitation to ask you, Justine. Yeah. This podcast is gonna come out many months from now.

What do you wanna say to your future self who's gonna tune in and hear this?

[01:14:52] Justine: Um, okay, I'm gonna phrase it in a way- ... that will make me feel guilty if it didn't happen. Ah. So it's kind of like my accountability thing.

Like, if I'm gonna say it now- Mm-hmm ... I'm gonna have to do it so I won't feel guilty later. Yes, yes. Justine, six months from now, I am so proud of you- Mm ... for choosing joy for yourself by gifting yourself things, whether it's material or experiential or emotional, that only serve you and aren't for somebody else.

Yeah. And that you did it more than twice- Mm ... in these next six... in the, in, in the past six months. Mm. And that it inspired you to do it again for these next six months.

[01:15:52] Dr. Nicole: Mm. May it be so. When you hear this back, may it be so. Mm-hmm. Let's hope. Mm. Let's hope. Mm.

[01:16:04] Justine: I said it, so now it has to happen.

[01:16:06] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah. Yeah,

[01:16:06] Justine: yeah, yeah.

I always do that. I'm very driven by guilt as a- ... beautiful Filipino Catholic daughter. The Catholic. Yeah,

[01:16:11] Dr. Nicole: I was gonna say, there's the Catholic coming out. So

[01:16:14] Justine: I'm like, okay, use it- Use it appropriately ... in the way that actually benefits you.

Guilt-trip yourself in the most productive- ... uplifting, empowering way.

Oh, that's so funny.

[01:16:25] Dr. Nicole: That's so funny.

That's so funny.

[01:16:26] Justine: This is how I rig the system, is that- Yeah, totally.

[01:16:28] Dr. Nicole: You have to. You have to. I play with myself, too. Like, um, when I come into the recording, I have a little bit of a n- recording intro that's just me talking- Mm ... to my future self. Like, "Hey- Mm ... I hope you're relaxing, dancing.

Hope you're coming hard. Hope you're having a great time," you know? And I see it in a couple months- Yep ... I'm like, "Oh, shoot, I did not." I didn't do that. Oh, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So we'll play with the time capsule here, but I, I feel confident you'll be there. Thank you. Yeah. I hope so. Well, Justine, as we're coming towards the end of our time for today, I'm gonna take a deep breath with you.

And check in and see if there's anything else you wanna share with the listeners. Otherwise, I can guide us towards our closing question.

[01:17:12] Justine: I've said this in a, in a tweet a while back, and I feel like this particular episode's conversation Really aligns with it, that I wanna share it and remind myself that I've said this, that I need to live by it too.

Um, which is the first step of experiencing pleasure is recognizing that you deserve it. Mm. And I've said this before, but now in context of our conversation, in the little moments where you've chosen to gift give, to care give, to give pleasure to others, Justine, know that you are also deserving of that- Mm

and you can care give and gift give to Justine. Yeah.

[01:18:05] Dr. Nicole: Don't forget to do that. Right. And that can be fun too. Right. There's the balance- Yeah ... the reciprocity. Yeah. Oh, such a good invitation for you, for me certainly, and for all of the listeners who are tuning in to find that, that balance between the giving and the receiving that we all deserve in this life for our, our longevity of this, this work that we're doing as political activists in this space.

[01:18:31] Justine: Well, thank you for prompting it. I don't think I would have- Of course ... thought of that statement that I have preached, um- Oh, yeah ... in, in this way after this conversation without it- Yeah ... so thank you.

[01:18:44] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Such a joy. Such a joy. Well, Justine, the last question that I ask everyone on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:18:59] Justine: Hmm. Uh, miscarriages. Because I already knew they were normal, I think my experience of my most recent one was not as painful as a result, but actually empowering knowing, like, the plumbing worked, and here's what needs to happen going forward versus shame, blame, guilt that it happened- Yeah ... and that I caused it.

Right. And I think if more people knew that was normal, they might have a similar experience of, "Okay, that sucks, and now what do I do about it?" Versus internalizing a blame that is false about yourself.

[01:19:56] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Huge. Huge. And it's, it's so normal in the first three months that it's often not even-

[01:20:02] Justine: Yeah

[01:20:03] Dr. Nicole: considered a miscarriage, right?

[01:20:05] Justine: I h- You know, s- actually, a, a doctor- This is the first ... called it, uh, to me, um- What do you call it? So when was your abortion? Oh. I was like, oh. Fascinating. I mean, yeah, I guess it's called a spontaneous abortion also. There it is. Yeah, that's the word. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

[01:20:18] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[01:20:18] Justine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But this was also in Texas when it happened. Ooh, yeah. And anything that, where an embryo doesn't make it- The A-word, yeah ... they're just calling it all an abortion.

[01:20:27] Dr. Nicole: Whoa.

[01:20:27] Justine: But yeah, I mean, they, uh, well, they'll, they'll call it... They'll, uh, they did call it a miscarriage. Mm. Early pregnancy miscarriage.

Mm. They have called it a spontaneous abortion. Mm. Um, but yeah. I just think in general, like, I, if I didn't already- Yeah ... know it was almost a quarter of pregnant people- Right ... before I started my fertility journey, I would have f- felt very different. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. And actually, like, a lot of the emotion that came from...

You don't have to include this part if you don't feel. Oh, please, I want to. Yeah. A lot of the emotion that came from my early pregnancy miscarriage was more on, like, as a sex educator- Mm ... and again, as a caregiver- Yeah. Yeah, yeah ... of like, fuck, I'm actually now experiencing a thing that I've talked and taught about- Right

in my past, and I'm also privy to so much of the politics, the anti-feminism- Yeah ... and all of this, like, societal strife that falls under this experience, that now that it's something that I'm going through, I really hate that it can't just be about, oh, the embryo didn't make it. Yeah. But I have to think about my identity as a woman- Yeah

as a daughter, as a, as a, as a, as a person who's trying to get pregnant in a geri- in, in a reproductively- Yeah ... geriatric stage. Yeah. I have to think about what state this is happening in. Yeah. I have to think about what kind of doctor in America under our healthcare system I have helping me through this.

Yeah. It's just like, fuck. Yes. And like, and I discovered it in the bathroom on my break from a brunch- Whoa. Whoa. A lot ... with someone I'm not wanting to openly share it with- Oh ... because I wanna take care of them because I know they are gonna be traumatized- Yeah ... that, or feel obligated to take care of me, when I'm actually like, "Oh, shit, I'm spotting."

And then immediately I just started thinking about the world- Yes ... and how the world regards miscarriages, and the people who experience them. And my friend I have to go back to finishing my, you know, eggs benedict with- Yeah. ... versus me just being like, "Oh, shit, I gotta text my partner and let him know." Yeah.

And that be the only thing I have to focus on. Yeah. So the emotion at the airport when I was leaving after the brunch- Ah ... was so much just about, like- This world sucks- Yeah ... around birth and- Yeah ... fertility and pregnant people and expectations and pre- just so many things. It was about that- Yeah ... and not just, like, what my body experienced and that be the only thing.

Ugh. And so that was just a really, um, insightful experience that I didn't think I would have. And also, just, like, I, I also, like, love seeing how people react and the diversity in how people react to this because it also tells me a lot about their own history and experience with- Yeah ... proximity or directly with miscarriage.

And I've actually found that anyone in the sex educa- or sexuality field that I have shared my miscarriage with have all reacted the same, which is very much like, "Yeah, it's normal." Yeah. Like, "How are you doing?" Yeah. As opposed to, "Oh. Oh, my God. I will pray for you." Mm. Or like, you know, my dad, "What did you do to cause this?"

[01:24:17] Dr. Nicole: Oh, God. Really? Fuck. Okay.

[01:24:19] Justine: I love you, Pops, but- Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know? And so it's just ... It's really, it's, it's really mind-boggling, the, the reactions that I'm getting and how affirming it is that the people in the sexuality reproductive health space are like, "Are you good?" And, "You're normal.

You know that." And their face being like, "I'm letting you f- I'm following where you're at with it." Yep, yep. As opposed to, you know, like a parent scared of pleasure and their kids and whispering- Yeah ... and lower tone. Yeah, yeah. Just being like, "You tell me where you want this conversation to go." Right. Like, "Are you good?"

Right. And I'm sure it would've been different if it was, like, a four, five, six-month- Yeah ... pregnancy,

[01:25:03] Dr. Nicole: right?

[01:25:03] Justine: Right. Um, but they, they, they let me continue to captain that ship on where- Mm-hmm ... this conversation goes. Um- Beautiful ... and so that's been really interesting, like, seeing a sex edu- sex educator or a sexologist respond versus my parent- Yeah

or my, you know, my cousin or- Yeah ... you know, like a, a random family friend that I ran into at the grocery store. Right. Um, but yeah. Ugh. It, it, it was just, it was a lot only because I was thinking about miscarriage in society- Everything, yeah ... not my miscarriage.

[01:25:42] Dr. Nicole: Right, right, because your work is so at the heart of the personal, which is something I can deeply relate with.

Every single relationship conflict I'm going through, I'm like, "Here's my work right here. Oh, my God." Right. Right? And so it brings up so much. And yeah, it reminds me of, uh, the child who scrapes their knee, right? Mm-hmm. Falls off the scooter, looks back at parents and says You know, waits for their reaction.

If the parent goes, "" then the kid, "Oh, no." Right? And so it's such a reflection of how relational we are. Yeah. And so you're right. When you are going to these sex educators, they're like, "Yeah, and so how are you?" Versus your parents, these other reactions. And, and so it's, it's an invitation for all of us, I think, to be curious about who are the people that you're putting into your life.

Yeah. You know, the listeners who are tuning in want this sort of content. Yeah, yeah. So like, "Hey, so happy to be here with you." Like, such a joy. Yeah. And the continued consciousness of who you put in your circle creates your reality.

[01:26:36] Justine: Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Totally. And I often choose my circle to be circa New York City Yeah.

As a result.

[01:26:48] Dr. Nicole: I hear you. I hear you. Oh, Justine, well, it's been such a joy to have you on the podcast today. Well, thank you for having me, Dr. Nicole. So much fun. Yes. Yes. Where can all of the listeners find you and the work that you're doing? Where can they follow you through this evolution of your next chapter?

[01:27:06] Justine: My website is justinefonte.com. You can follow me on socials at imjustineaf, and I have an Audible out called How to Talk to Your Kids About Sex. Would love some reviews that aren't only from my trolls who gave it one star. Oh, God. Um, and I'm a co-editor of a, a brand new academic textbook that was just released this past summer- Um, from Rutledge Press.

Nice. And, uh, would love more people in the sexuality field to get their hands on it. It's fundamental concepts and critical developments in sex education. Um- Oh ... we have a whole Justice League lineup of authors who contributed to it. Um, and we are looking forward to it's being in college campuses- Yeah

in more clinicians' offices, and in more sex educator classrooms.

[01:28:00] Dr. Nicole: Ah, amazing. And listener, I'll have all of that linked in the show notes below so you can find all of those pathways to follow Justine, learn more about her work. And again, thank you Justine, for coming onto the show today.

[01:28:13] Justine: Thank you so much for your trust in me to have me on.

[01:28:16] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Such a joy. Dear listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Modern Anarchy. Thank you for sharing this episode with your friends, with your lovers, with your community. Truly, it means so much to me, and I am so grateful that you are here. If you are wanting to release jealousy in your non-monogamous dynamics and step into compersion and pleasure-filled connection, you can read my book, The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide, for free on my website.

There you will also find so many other free resources, including worksheets on how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non-monogamous dynamics, and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure-filled sex and relationships.

So head on over to modernanarchypodcast.com to find all of those free resources, and I look forward to seeing you next week.