265. Premature Ejaculation of Vulnerability: the tension of erotic energy with Aaron Frazin

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Aaron join us for a conversation about the sexual tension between safety and risk. Together we talk about following your erotic compass, the existential obstacle of isolation, and coming to our life intentions.

Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I'm so happy that you are here, uh, tuning in to another episode each Wednesday. My name is Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, author of The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide, and founder of the Pleasure Practice, where I teach students from around the world how to craft pleasurable sex lives and non-monogamous relationships.

Dear listener, may you continue to find the places, the people, the spaces that provide you enough safety to take risks with your vulnerability. Aaron and I get really deep into this concept of what it means to play that tense line between safety and risk, and we both explore how the more safety you feel, the more risk you can take, right?

So I am feeling that right now as I just closed out my, um, pleasure liberation programs, the sexuality programs. Folks just graduated this last week, and mm, to see people slowly build into trusting one another and the ability to take risks and express their vulnerability around their growth edges with their sexual pleasure and their connections, I mean- Tears.

So many tears were shed in this year's cohort. So many tears were shed. And really, you know, the movement comes from the vulnerability, that moment that you take a risk to share when there's that safety, right? When you've built that container, right, you can share and be held, be seen, be attuned to. And that's where we can do so much of the healing from these experiences where the systems or past people or lovers have dropped us, right, to step into more connection when there is that safety to take those risks.

And dear listener, just know that wherever you are in the world, I'm sending you the, the biggest hug if you would like one. And just really, really, really rooting for you to find the people, the spaces, the community that can hold you so that you can keep taking those risks of your vulnerability. And in doing so, step in even to more groundedness of your own energy and ability to support others with feeling that groundedness in their own life.

And that's how we're gonna create the world that we dream of. All right, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you wanna join some of my pleasure liberation programs, get a touch into some of the things that I'm speaking about here and this vulnerability and the growth and the transformation, you can learn more and gather so many free resources at modernanarchypodcast.com, linked in the show notes below.

And I wanna say a big thank you to all my Patreon supporters. I truly could not do this work without you and your support, so thank you for joining me in this. Thank you for supporting me, and thank you for supporting the show for the last five years together. And with that, dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all of my love, and let's tune in to today's episode.

Dear listener, there's a space already waiting for you where you are invited to let go of every old script about sacri- and relationships and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure, empowerment, and deep alignment. I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together, we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real transformation possible. And I'll be right there with you, guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure and visit modernanarchypodcast.com/pleasurepractice to apply.

And the first question that I ask every guest on the show is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:05:05] Aaron: Well, my name's Aaron Frazen. Uh, I'm a sex and relationship coach. I focus primarily on couples who have lost the spark or one person wants it a lot more than the other. And then I also focus on men's issues, so premature ejaculation, erectile dysfunction, and delayed ejaculation, and porn.

And I love, I love witnessing people or couples move from sex being such an anxious thing- Mm ... to something that they feel so, mm, excited to- Yeah ... have or just excited for the anticipation of it. Yeah, I witnessed that transformation in my own life and love walking along- alongside people as they get to do that too.

[00:06:06] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. It's so transformative. It impacts- Mm-hmm ... every area of our lives. And so- Mm-hmm ... I'm sure we can really speak to the transformation that that has brought in many of our clients, right? It's such an honor to do that work with them. And also, I would love to hear about your own personal journey. Where do you become passionate about this?

What lights the fire for you to do this work?

[00:06:32] Aaron: Hmm. Well, I, I originally got into it because- Outwardly, I had it all. I was running a multi-billion- a multi-million dollar, I wish it was billion- ... a business, and I was married to a doctor. Mm. And I, I had my hobbies and I had so much of my life together. But even though I had a lot of, like, the social accolades and the life I thought I was supposed to have, inwardly I was just, like, dying.

Mm. And I was not happy.

[00:07:06] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:07:06] Aaron: And one of the things that was way off was my sex life, and so I was always listening to podcasts, like, trying to figure it out. I went to grad school to become a, a therapist, really trying to figure it out. Yeah. And years later, it... Like, through this work, I really felt, like, a profound shift from doing what I thought I should do to, like, really tapping into, like, what do I want?

Not just, like, on a grand vision, but just, like, every moment. Like, what smells good that I want? Mm. What looks good that I want? Yeah. What... You know, how can I move through life, like, totally tapped into myself? And my life started to balance from really trying to make sure everyone liked me and, um, just, like, kind of manipulating the external world to, like, really noticing my internal world and not abandoning myself.

[00:08:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:10] Aaron: I think everything slowed down for me.

Mm. And I got really lucky to get into this work. Yeah, I get to just be with people experiencing some of the things I experienced- Yeah ... some things I've never experienced, and help people connect again with their own desire or their partner.

[00:08:31] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean, the pleasure of being present, right?

If you're going so fast, you won't even feel it, right? Mm-hmm. If you're- I fall into this often. Like, eating food so quickly you don't even taste it. Mm. Right? And so I- Yeah ... I hear you in terms of what it meant for you to have all of these, quote-unquote, "societally deemed pleasures", but there wasn't that alignment in your own lived body with the things that you were experiencing.

And so I'm curious if we were to go back to that time, what were some of the things that you noticed in your sex life that now you look back on and see how out of alignment they were? What were the things that were coming up for you?

[00:09:15] Aaron: Well, I had premature ejaculation.

[00:09:18] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:09:19] Aaron: And I was obsessed with fixing it-

[00:09:25] Dr. Nicole: Yeah

[00:09:26] Aaron: and never could, even though I tried all of the things online. And the moment- I lo- like my marriage actually at the time ended. The premature ejaculation never came back.

[00:09:42] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:09:43] Aaron: And that was shocking to me because that taught me the relational element of all of this work. Sure, there's like in, in like a lot of masculine scripts there's this like, "You should be stoic.

You should be able to do all the interpersonal... Like, the inner work," but it was amazing that sex dramatically changed for me when my relationship shifted. And so the- we're, we're all interconnected. The things that are happening inside of me occur in we, right? Yeah. So, um, that was one thing. I think another thing that came up for me was I didn't own my desire.

[00:10:28] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:10:29] Aaron: I, I wasn't able to like sit in my own body when I was turned on-

[00:10:35] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Mm ...

[00:10:35] Aaron: by my partner or someone.

[00:10:38] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:10:39] Aaron: And let the other person see that. I had to like move fast. Uh, I wasn't able to just like be like, "Yeah, this is good that I'm in my wanting energy, and I'm gonna stay in it, and I'm gonna let the other person see it."

[00:10:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm. The tease.

[00:10:57] Aaron: The tease, and also just like I'm happy this energy- Yeah ... is here, and I don't need to run from it by like moving with it really fast or run from it by not initiating or s- like- Yeah ... being seductive. I made friends with my own desire, and once I like befriended it... Like, I don't know. I, I think I was taught a lot of things as a guy that told me that desire was bad.

[00:11:30] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:11:31] Aaron: Or desire and what I could do with it reflected my self-worth.

[00:11:35] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Yep.

[00:11:37] Aaron: I, I think I had a, a mentor once that taught me to stay in my own desire and stay in relationship with other people, and, uh, that was really helpful for- Mm. I think I... That, that younger me couldn't do that.

[00:11:55] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Yeah. I'm sure the younger me was like, "What do you mean?"

Like, "Stay with what? What, what?" Right? If you were to try and give some words to that younger self, because I'm sure there are listeners who are equally asking that question, what does it mean, Aaron, to stay with your desire? I hear you saying that it's not that lunging forward or that recoil back, but what does that actually mean with y- when you sit with it?

I'm, I'm thinking discomfort truly, but I'm curious, like what did you experience when you sat with it?

[00:12:27] Aaron: Erotic energy is in part tension

[00:12:30] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:12:30] Aaron: You're saying, "I want something." Right. And it's vulnerable, and the more you linger in the energy, the more there's tension. It's like flirting energy. It's like building tension, but you're not just like suddenly making out right away.

Like- Right ... you're, you're, you're living in this like we're enjoying each other, but there's still space between us.

[00:12:50] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:12:51] Aaron: Learning to just say yes, like, "Oh, that person turns me on," and I, and stay connected to my senses. Like, here's what I'm enjoying about this person in front of me-

[00:13:03] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:13:03] Aaron: while also... So like really like breathing into myself, allowing that energy to expand, allowing myself to want, while not collapsing the energy between the other person.

Yeah. So like really staying like if I'm... Like, let's say if I'm single-

[00:13:21] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:13:22] Aaron: I used to be someone that never flirted with a random person. Mm. But then it's just like you can like look at someone in the eyes and show that. Like if you're- Yeah ... connected to your energy, you can let them see that you're interested, and if they keep looking at you, well, maybe that's an invitation.

But if they turn away, move on.

[00:13:41] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:13:42] Aaron: You know? Staying in relationship with s- you know, the other person-

[00:13:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:13:47] Aaron: um, gives you a way to have your energy, but yeah, just do no harm with it either.

[00:13:56] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah, of course, being conscious. Mm-hmm. And, and where do we even draw that line of what flirting is when erotic life force is running through every moment, right?

It's an interesting line to think about. Uh, I remember as you were saying that, as a child, I would always be called a flirt in such a negative context, right? 'Cause so modern normative growing up, people were like, "Nicole flirts with everybody." Now I find that as a high compliment, but back then, I was really shamed.

And I always just felt like I was being bubbly and present and interested and making eye contact, right? It's so heartbreaking- Mm-hmm ... to think that even eye contact can be so difficult for people. You invite them to do just some breathing together with eye gazing, and it's some of the most terrifying things for people to be seen in that level of present.

And that's not even bringing even sexuality in the quote unquote understanding we have out of it. You know, if we wanna get into the sacred energy exchange sort of language, then like yes, right? But otherwise, that's just a moment of breathing together, and even there, so many people would be terrified just to be- Mm-hmm

seen and sit in that for that amount of time.

[00:15:08] Aaron: Yeah. For any listener, if the next time you're making eye contact with a person today or tomorrow, like see what happens- Yeah ... in your mind. Do you believe the other person's thinking something about you?

[00:15:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:26] Aaron: Do you feel like you should be doing something different?

Do you feel yourself stop breathing?

[00:15:34] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:15:35] Aaron: Do you feel excited? I, I don't know. Yeah ... but, like, it, it's, like, interesting what we do to escape out of control, to escape vulnerability-

[00:15:45] Dr. Nicole: Right ...

[00:15:46] Aaron: instead of just... Mm. I, I, I guess what's interesting is, like, a lot of people either feel like the other person's judging them or feel like they're bad.

Mm. But both of those are actually just ways to feel like they're in control again. And so what's it like to just breathe in this, like, out of control moment and not believe any of those- Right ... thoughts because you don't know.

[00:16:14] Dr. Nicole: Right. I know. I know. And so, or do I, right? There it is. Do I know? Well, I mean, you do,

[00:16:19] Aaron: but no.

I mean, I do. Right. No,

[00:16:23] Dr. Nicole: I'm a, I'm a humble beginner every day. I'm humbled by the universe, you know? I keep asking for it to give me all the lessons I need, and it does every day. Mm-hmm. Um, but right, as you were saying, you know, when you do meet another person in any context, we can't read minds, as you're alluding to.

Mm-hmm. And so our mind will make so many different narratives. Aaron's thinking this. Aaron's thinking that. Maybe it's this or that because, uh, you're right, I'm trying to find control of the situations- Mm-hmm ... that I know what's happening, right? And it's often very uncomfortable to surrender to the unknown.

But it's funny 'cause that's what we love in human relationships, right? Is this, the unpredictable. It's like w- I, I like to hope that many people will not get deeper into dating AI and these other sorts of ways because- Hmm ... there's not so much of the unknown, of the unpredictable of what a human is, right?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like, it's not as controllable. We don't want the fake flowers. We want the ones that live and die, right? And so when we think about relationships, there's some sort of magic and beauty to the unpredictable, but it's also the suffering, right? 'Cause you're like, "Well, what are they thinking?

What are they thinking? What are they thinking?" Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so you get more comfortable with that. And I also really appreciated how you talked about in your marriage the, the shift that occurred for you in terms of that big shift of not having, you know, the same issues once you stepped out of that dynamic, and I think it really points to a lot of my work with psychedelics.

And the framework to that sort of work when I'm doing psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy is the importance of the set and setting, right? And so I bring that into all of my work with sexuality is what is the set and setting? And so if I'm thinking about your experience, right, the setting of that container and that marriage- Right?

Playing such a huge role. And I think so often we go into the individual, especially in our, like, white Western patriarchal models where you put the diagnosis on the individual, not the context of the situation, but the individual, right? And so when I think about your situation- Mm-hmm ... I expand out from that to, like, what is the setting along with your mindset, right, that played to that?

And I really do hope that we can bring more of that systemic, wider setting lens into our sexual healing work.

[00:18:44] Aaron: Mm-hmm. Right. Whatever's happening in your sexual world is happening in a certain context, and it's not just happening inside of you.

[00:18:55] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:56] Aaron: And so it's amazing when I'm working with couples, like sexual performance anxiety, which- Yeah

can contribute to premature ejaculation- Right ... erectile dysfunction or just not good sex or whatever it is, can go away with work on one or two areas. One being, like, the individual work of, you know, regulating your body instead of going into people-pleasing mode.

[00:19:20] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:19:20] Aaron: But also... Or, or fight or flight.

Fight, yeah. You know? But also the other thing is your relationship. You know, when I see a sexual pursuer and a sexual withdrawer, someone wanting sex more and someone pulling away, sometimes I've seen that go away when the pursuer learns to, um, really ground themselves in their desire to be wanted and breathe with it, instead of this, like, really anxious energy.

But learn- Yeah ... really to tap into the pleasures in the room, their nervousness, hold themselves. But other times I've seen it go away, I mean, it's usually a combination, when their partner pursues them or tells- Mm ... like, says something in some way that says, "I do want you," and then it slows their partner down, and you can handle it as a team.

The more you want me, the less I'm hungry, really starving, going into a buffet and being like, "Oh my God, I need to eat everything really, really, really quickly." Right. But the more you feel like, "Oh, I feel wanted," the more it's like you're going into that same, you know, buffet, but you're kind of satiated.

And so it really does, um... You know, there's a big focus on the individual lens, and especially in, mm, like masculine ideals that, that we're- Mm ... taught around you should be able to fix it all within yourself, I feel like fails, uh, a lot of people because it's happening in a relational element.

[00:21:05] Dr. Nicole: Right.

Absolutely. Absolutely. All the messages, right? We're talking about premature ejaculation, needing to have that hard cock the whole time. Mm-hmm. Like, the amount of people who can't fathom having, like, a soft cock erotic experience- Mm-hmm ... is heartbreaking. Let alone the taboos of any sort of, like, anal play or prostate play.

Mm-hmm. That isn't just coming from the individual or, or even the partner, right? Like, it's that larger system that tells us what's the narrative of, quote-unquote, normal sexual relating. And anything outside of that makes you, quote-unquote, abnormal, which threatens disconnection, which is one of our deepest needs evolutionarily, right?

We know that, um, one of the worst forms of torture is to be isolated, put into isolation, right? Mm-hmm. And so we have these deep needs to be connected. And so if you're telling me that I go do that anal play, I might be disconnected. It's often not that conscious, right? It's not like we're like- Mm-hmm

anal play equals this. But we n- like, know subconsciously that that's not cool. If I go tell my friends, they're gonna shudder at me, right? And so then there's that moment where you don't express that desire to explore that because of so much of the context of the relationship and the systems that are so deep.

It's, it's a lot- Mm-hmm ... of work with the unconscious, I feel like, here. And, and bringing it into more consciousness so that we have more embodied awareness and autonomy to choose. Like you're saying, to be with your desire rather than just reacting. Being at that buffet, like, scarfing it down. It's coming back to slow down so that you respond rather than react.

[00:22:46] Aaron: Right. So you have choice in the moment. Mm-hmm. As opposed to just feeling like this is automatic.

[00:22:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And I have so much, uh, understanding for how restricted we are. I wrote this newsletter for my Pleasure Activist email list serve, and it's about the forbidden cookie jar, especially in non-monogamy, right?

How if we, if we know with kids, right, if you tell them, "You get one cookie and only one cookie, and I'm gonna put the rest of the jar up here on this tall shelf, and you can't have any other cookies," the second the parents are gone, that kid runs and has no understanding of what it means to, like, pace yourself in terms of sweets.

Often you get that horrible stomach ache. Similar things with a buffet, right? Mm-hmm. And so I think about so many of us have been restricted, restricted, restricted, and then when you get access, we're just, like, gorging. And especially I see that in new relationship energy with folks who are opening up their relationships and just starting to get into the possibility of having multiplicity.

And so then you're like, gorge, gorge, gorge, gorge, gorge, gorge, gorge. New relationship, new relationship, right? And then you come back to that moment and you're like, "Oh, shit." A lot of wreckage around, like, all the people that maybe... You know, I like to hold that nuanced dance of accountability and also understanding of what the s- the systems have done to us, right?

So there's accountability in that NRE that we need to be holding, and also an understanding of how, because of the restrictions, it makes sense that we wouldn't have that sense of, uh, internal regulation around our desires and pleasures.

[00:24:30] Aaron: That's such an, uh, intoxicating energy-

[00:24:34] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:24:34] Aaron: to be in new relationship energy.

Which I think you you mentioned the f- the forbidden or- Yeah ... like, it, it brings up in me this sense of like the most exciting sex is when there's both safety and risk. Mm. And in new relationship energy, you don't yet have security with this person. Yeah. They're, they're new.

[00:24:59] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:25:00] Aaron: So there's a lot of risk.

[00:25:01] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:02] Aaron: But they're also, you know, showing you a lot of signs they want you.

[00:25:05] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:25:05] Aaron: So there's this, you know, safety and, and it's a really exciting energy.

[00:25:15] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And as we were saying before in terms of the ways that we make narratives and trying to find control, right? Some people will meet someone, they're like, "This is my person.

We're getting married." It's been one day. "This is my person. I'm getting married." "I know it. I'm so confident." And I'm like, "Whoa," you know? And so it's like- Nicole,

[00:25:35] Aaron: we just met.

[00:25:36] Dr. Nicole: Ah, exactly. I know. I had one of my clients though say that. I was like, "Okay, like I wanna hold space for like what they're experiencing and honoring that.

And also maybe we can slow down a little bit," right? Because I actually did have that on a second date. So I'm gonna get this. I was on a second date with a polyamorous person, and he, we were telling each other all about our partners and all about this, and he's like, "My partners would say I'm being so bad right now, but Nicole, we could get monogamously married.

I could see it for us." And I was like... I was like, "You're telling me, you just told me about all your other partners. I'm telling you about mine. You're telling me on a date two we could get monogamous?" Mm. What? Like, there's so many levels to that problem. Anyhow, coming back.

[00:26:23] Aaron: Well, look, I mean, I mean, I think- No, let's go for it.

that that really connects to like what this- Yeah ... this podcast is about, which is sexual performance anxiety. Yeah. Which is what do we do when something feels vulnerable for us? Yeah. What that person did, and I think a lot of us maybe have done that at points. But you r- you, it kind of like explodes out of you.

You're like- ... "I'm feeling so much whatever it is for this person." And- What am I gonna do with it? Like, it's gonna just explode out of me. Yeah. And there are consequences to- Yeah ... to what, you know? Like, that, that might freak you out- It did ... or like, that might set a lot of high expectations if it didn't freak you out.

But like, instead of being able to go and handle that energy of like noticing like, "Oh, I'm feeling a lot of pleasure with this person," can I breathe into that? Because if we can't breathe in those vulnerable states, then you're actually in fear. I think the, the thing that's interesting about fear versus excitement, and this connects to performance anxiety, is like they show up almost the exact same.

Mm. Right. They're almost identical patterns in the body. Elevated heart rate. Right. Both fear and excitement have tension, heat.

[00:27:46] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:27:46] Aaron: The only consistent difference is in excitement, we're breathing.

[00:27:51] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:27:51] Aaron: In fear, we're holding our breath.

[00:27:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:27:55] Aaron: And so when you're like, sexual performance anxiety's coming up or you're feeling like, "I need to make sure I give my partner an orgasm.

I need to make sure they're, I look good." Or- Yeah ... you know, "Why am I not getting hard?" Or like, "I need to stay hard," or, "What if I come quick?" Or whatever, however the anxiety's coming up, like, can you check with your breath?

[00:28:15] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:28:17] Aaron: And can you slow yourself down? Because anything you do from that really fear place isn't gonna be that sexy.

[00:28:25] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:28:25] Aaron: Even if you're doing the things your partner wants. But when you slow down and you breathe... What I've noticed is when people connect with their erotic energy and they slow down, just connect with their body, anything you say or do from that place is pretty sexy.

[00:28:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:46] Aaron: It's the difference between like, "I really want you to want me," in my words or my actions-

or like if I take a few breaths, and even if I still really want you to want me-

[00:28:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ... it's like, "

[00:28:57] Aaron: I want you to want me."

[00:28:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:59] Aaron: It's like you can say the same thing, but when you're- Yeah ... when you're accessing your breath, a lot of those things go away. So.

[00:29:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. It comes from that space of trusting in the self, right?

Mm-hmm. And so when you're able to take that deep breath and you haven't had too much caffeine, right? I'm like feeling it in this current moment. Um, when you haven't had too much caffeine, you can really slow down to be with that and not grasp so hard. It... What was coming to mind for me was a premature ejaculation of your vulnerability, right?

Not just your, your sperm, right, but your vulnerability and the speed- Hmm. Juicy ... at which that comes through. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What does that spark for you?

[00:29:48] Aaron: Well, it's just- Yeah. That spilling out that that person- Yeah ... you mentioned did of like, "I need to control the moment, so what am I gonna say?"

"Because I'm experiencing so much like for this person." And then it's like- ... we're gonna get married. Yeah. We're like, we're gonna monogously get married or whatever. But it is like a premature ejaculation, which is really just saying, "Oh, I'm experiencing so much tension and I can't contain it." You know?

Mm-hmm. And can you come back to the senses? Can you come back to s- to... I, I... You could be the s- the senses, like what do you see, what do you smell- Right ... that you enjoy. Or I really think the key is to come back to the breath.

[00:30:31] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Yeah.

[00:30:31] Aaron: It is nearly impossible to stay in the fight or flight state when you're breathing deeply.

[00:30:38] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:30:38] Aaron: And, you know, erection or wetness, both come from the parasympathetic nervous system, which is rest and digest. It's like feed and breed. It is slowed down, it's relaxed. And orgasm comes from the sympathetic nervous system- Yeah ... which is like fight or flight.

[00:30:56] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:30:57] Aaron: And so erotic energy has tension.

[00:31:01] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:31:02] Aaron: And if quickly you move to, "Oh my God," fight or flight- Yeah ... well, you're either not gonna be in parasympathetic, which is when blood flow goes to the genitals, so you're either not gonna get hard, not gonna get wet. Or if you go to sympathetic really quickly, that's where orgasm comes from- Mm ... and you might come quickly.

[00:31:26] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:31:26] Aaron: So reframing the story or whatever aside in your brain, if you can just breathe yourself down.

Whatever you do once you get calm again will probably be sexy.

[00:31:43] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:45] Aaron: And whatever you do when you're in a frantic mode probably won't be that sexy.

[00:31:51] Dr. Nicole: Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:31:52] Aaron: And so when that whole time you're, you're trying to get your partner to orgasm or, or get your partner to like what you're doing or make sure you're looking good or whatever it is, it's a paradox of like sexual performance anxiety because performance anxiety is one of the most frustrating sexual experiences- Mm

because the very thing you do to try to fix it- Yeah ... is often what, what disconnects you even more. You know, really hyper-focusing on the other person's experience is actually gonna cause, you know, further anxiety and may even push them away, which make, might make you more anxious. Whereas coming back to yourself is the very thing you need to do- Mm

which most people don't do.

[00:32:41] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Yeah.

[00:32:42] Aaron: They focus, hyper-focus on their- Either how they're bad or their partner.

[00:32:49] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Heartbreaking to think about. Mm-hmm So many lost moments of pleasure in that spiral.

[00:32:55] Aaron: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:56] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And I mean, this is why I love teaching yoga so much though, right? Mm-hmm. And to do it in person, to really, really be with the breath, to invite people to slow down, and my practice when I was teaching used to be so fast, I think because I was in grad school and there was so much that I was carrying that I had so much tension in the body.

It was like, "Go, go, go, go, go, go, go," like this fast- Right ... crazy Vinyasa class that I would teach with some EDM music. If only I

[00:33:25] Aaron: perform this yoga right. If only I teach right. If only I make all them feel good- ... then I'll feel good. Oh, yeah. But that's just anxiety talking. Oh,

[00:33:35] Dr. Nicole: and get this. As a teacher, I'm, I'm like, "Hmm, what if I slow down?

I feel like people are gonna hate that." They're gonna hate it because I, as a Type A business woman building all this, I'm very fast, right? Like, I do all this stuff, right? Mm-hmm. So the idea of slowing down for me, and teach, I just start projecting out my own performance anxiety, right? Right. Is like, my students are gonna hate this.

[00:33:59] Aaron: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:59] Dr. Nicole: 'Cause I have a hard time with it.

[00:34:03] Aaron: Right. Yeah. And so That's exactly it. It's you go into, like, your own sense of badness because that allows you to feel control. "Oh, I know what's gonna happen."

[00:34:13] Dr. Nicole: Right. "

[00:34:14] Aaron: M- they won't like me."

[00:34:16] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:34:16] Aaron: Now I get to feel control instead of... I like to just, like, name what's true for me in that moment.

If I'm not focusing on breath, it's just, like, noticing, like, I guess in your example, like, hmm, or may- maybe we'll go to a more sexual example. Like- Yeah ... noticing when that energy comes up, like, "Oh, I want to feel wanted."

[00:34:38] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:34:40] Aaron: Of course, and, like, to even just say yes or of course.

[00:34:44] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:34:46] Aaron: Like, if my head's doing what your head did in the yoga class of like, "They're gonna not like me for this," it's like- Yeah

"Oh, I really wanna feel wanted right now." Yeah. Yeah, so that. I really wanna feel they, like they, they lust for me. Right. And just say, "Yeah." And then for whatever reason, that really helps me. It's just returning to my own experience.

[00:35:07] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, and then can I source that for myself?

[00:35:12] Aaron: Mm. Same one.

[00:35:16] Dr. Nicole: Of course, as I spoke to earlier, we all need to be loved, and so we're not an island. You can't just always resource all of that by yourself. However, in that moment, following with you, right? "Oh, I'm anxious that they're not gonna like this. Oh, I really want to be wanted." And then the next step of, and I know that what I teach is powerful, and if these aren't the right students for that, I trust that the right ones will come.

Mm. I know I have that. Right? So, like, sourcing that internally. Like, I, of course I'm hot, of course I'm sexy, of course this person wants me. Mm. So that next level of narrative, which is really affirming the self. And of course, we, we do it, we're interconnected, so there is no individual, right? Like, we find our resilience, our strength through our community and all of the relationships that we have.

So I, I acknowledge that. My ability to say that is because I have other people who have loved me and, and affirmed me in that, and students who have come, right? But there are moments where those people aren't in there, and can you, like, truly in the moment physically, they may be in your head, right? But can you source that in those moments too, rather than going down the other one of the spiral of the doubt and the shame and all of that sort of stuff.

I think that's the nuanced dance of interconnection, right? Mm. Individual and the community, to hold both.

[00:36:40] Aaron: Mm. Yeah. To be able to stay in your individuality and to stay in community, and to tap into the resourcing that- Yeah ... both of those can provide.

[00:36:51] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm. And so I'm curious for you, Aaron, in the here and the now, right?

We've talked a little bit about your past and the things that you've worked through, and the presence that you've come to, the slowness, the breath. What are you exploring in the here and the now?

[00:37:09] Aaron: Mm. So many things. Yeah. Uh, do you like Esther Perel?

[00:37:16] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Yes, I do. Of course, of course.

[00:37:18] Aaron: And, and like, I know of course, and like, it's, like, easy to idolize Esther Perel and how her, like, love is the language of having, desire is the language of wanting, and, like, it's all about creating mystery.

Mm. And I f- used to work so much with couples on creating that sexual excitement, r- right? Rebringing individuality and rebringing obstacles, and that is true. But in doing so, I lost a little bit of touch with the roots of those things naturally occur- Mm ... when there's safety-

[00:37:59] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:37:59] Aaron: and closeness, and a couple has repaired.

And I have... It's been so alive for me to just help couples not necessarily create more mystery-

[00:38:22] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:38:23] Aaron: create more obstacles that can create hot sex, and all the things that Esther Perel really made me excited about.

[00:38:34] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:38:35] Aaron: But actually, to recreate the spark in a long-term relationship- It's incredible what slowing a couple down and having them state their more vulnerable emotions when it comes to sex.

Like, "Oh, when you initiate, there's a part of me that feels pressure because I feel like I'm gonna let you down if I don't say yes."

[00:39:00] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:00] Aaron: Or, you know, "I don't initiate because I don't think you want me," or, "I initiate so frantically, but underneath that it's because I don't think you want me." And, like, to help people actually navigate the more vulnerable emotions and not turn to their automatic response of, like, "I'm not even gonna turn on my erotic energy because I don't want my partner to get turned on.

I don't wanna feel guilty if I say no." But to, like, choose to do something different with your partner. Naturally, once you unfold and create a safer environment for the more vulnerable emotion, naturally couples start to just really have hot sex.

[00:39:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:39:48] Aaron: And so I think it's a lie for me because with Esther Perel, I'm actually falling a little out of love with, like, this person who I really, really, like, idolized.

And I'm realizing, not that her stuff isn't amazing, but the emphasis once there is a safety for the more vulnerable parts of what's happening underneath people's behavior and sex, and an understanding of it, people end up having hot sex.

[00:40:19] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. We can have our critiques and admiration at the same time.

I've got my critiques. I've got my thoughts. Uh, we see the, the beauty of that moment in our sessions. Not necessarily the hot sex, of course. But when you're slowing that couple down to talk about those tender parts, and then they lean towards one another. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. Or it's a kiss or a hand hold, which is, uh, you know, truly merging the bodies together.

Of course, there is the sex that later happens and all of that. But you see those moments as, as a healer- Mm-hmm ... as a person holding that space where you really get that vulnerability out, and then they look at each other. And I've been there, too. I still, I still do couples therapy and own therapy for myself 'cause I find it fascinating just to put myself-

[00:41:11] Aaron: And they see each other anew again.

Yes. And they lose the responsibility to need to caretake their partner, but instead try something new.

[00:41:19] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. And so what I l- love and would like to add to Esther's discussion of the obstacle Right? Like, there's so many maybe, like, structural obstacles or these other sorts of, you know, like, longing in terms of a new person or longing 'cause there's this forbidden power dynamic and I'm not supposed to want my blah, blah, blah, whatever.

You know what I mean? Personally, my favorite obstacle is our existential isolation.

[00:41:51] Aaron: Why?

[00:41:56] Dr. Nicole: Hey, man. Uh, my, my theoretical orientation is deeply feminist and existential. Yeah.

[00:42:00] Aaron: What does that mean? Yeah, yeah. That existential isolation turns you on?

[00:42:04] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, it does. It fucking does turn me on. It does. It does. You know, because it's the ultimate obstacle, and sometimes we for- we can't... I also actually-

[00:42:15] Aaron: Wait, what does it mean?

What is it? Yeah, yeah. What do you mean?

[00:42:17] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So

I am a meaning-making creature. Mm-hmm. And so constantly right now I'm making narratives of narratives of narratives. And so even if theoretically you and I sat together through every single moment of the rest of our lives together, I am still gonna look at you and there will be millions, billions of thoughts that I will never know that went through your head, Aaron, because I couldn't possibly because of our ex- like, isolation.

Truly, there's so much in here going on in my head, so much in your head, that we could constantly try to tell each other, and even then we're only still saying, "Here's my page. Here's your page. I think I see what's going on in your page," but I will truly never be inside your psychological existence in your head.

I can't. And that's part of the existential, like, psychotherapy lens of one of the givens, right? It's death, existence, isolation, and meaning, right? So isolation. We truly are up here in our heads by ourselves. And so my addition to Esther Perel's sense of the obstacle is, what if the obstacle is truly our individuation existentially?

And often we forget that, right? We get into these long-term relationships and we're like, "I know that guy. I know what he does. I know what he says. I know how he's gonna respond." And that's a lot of the work we do as healers, is trying to bring in more curiosity to the fact that our partners, our lovers, are constantly ever-unfolding and changing, right?

Mm-hmm. And so in that moment where you just think you know what your partner's gonna say, you think you know how they're gonna respond, you're forgetting how separate that person is, the entire universe that they have inside their head, right? And so if you really sit with that, that starts to become almost a spiritual practice, 'cause now you're like, "Wow, this person across from me is constantly changing, a whole universe of meaning-making and billions of thoughts that I will never know, and even if I tried, I couldn't?"

Ooh. Like that does do it for me. I'm like, "Wow,

[00:44:22] Aaron: okay." Well, what that brings up for me is one time I was in a training and the teacher brought up if you're ever bored on a date and you think, "This person is so boring," tap into your own sense of curiosity.

[00:44:41] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:44:42] Aaron: Like what would be fun for you? Instead of putting all of that responsibility in their hands to...

Like if you're... Like there's probably something that e- even outlandish that you could do that would entertain you. Uh-huh. Like let your mind go-

[00:45:02] Dr. Nicole: Uh-huh ...

[00:45:02] Aaron: and, and don't place the responsibility on the other person. So if you're like in that long-term relationship like you're saying and you're like- Yeah ... "Oh, I know this person's thoughts, I know this person's..."

That is maybe true. At some point, like you know a lot of things about this person. But also, you're... Whether or not that's true, whether y- or not you believe in Dr. Nicole's existential isolate- ... isolation thing being hot- Yeah. ... uh, you can re-tap into like, well, if it's a date, like what am I curious about? Or what would be fun for me?

Or what do I wanna order on the menu that I want?

[00:45:42] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:43] Aaron: Or if it's sex, like what would feel pleasurable to my eyes? What would feel pleasurable to say? What would feel pleasurable to hear? What would be, you know, pleasurable to feel? And what would feel edgy for me? It's like in Adrienne Maree Brown's, like scream your own name.

[00:46:05] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:46:06] Aaron: And there's the curiosity of another person, and then there's like letting go of the, the steering wheel and letting yourself be surprised when you just ask yourself like, "What am I curious about?" Or, "What would be fun for me?"

[00:46:22] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:24] Aaron: And waiting until something appears. Yeah. Mm. Yeah.

[00:46:30] Dr. Nicole: Sounds like play.

[00:46:32] Aaron: Yeah, I think that is play.

[00:46:33] Dr. Nicole: Right? Right? Like learning to play more. Mm-hmm. Trusting the unfolding of what arises. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I'm curious for you as someone who's equally in this work, there's so much in our heads when we play. How do you let it all go to be in the moment?

[00:46:59] Aaron: Well, naturally when you're feeling- Safe, like you can, uh- Right

with someone, you end up more in that. If you imagine the people you feel most playful with- Mm ... you're probably feeling not judged with them.

[00:47:15] Dr. Nicole: Right. Right, right, right.

[00:47:17] Aaron: How do I let it all go?

[00:47:20] Dr. Nicole: Uh, 'cause I'm- Mm ... like mid-orgasm going like, "Fuck, that's a good research study on this. That position, that thing we just...

Oh, my God." You know? And I'm like, "Damn, girl, you gotta just calm you know?" You know, sometimes. Some, some days are better than others,

[00:47:33] Aaron: but- Well, and I think- ... I think, like, that's your experience mid- Yeah ... uh, mid-orgasm. And I think for a lot of men- Yeah ... or maybe sometimes me- Yeah ... the experience mid-orgasm is, like, uh, vulnerable thoughts of like- Mm

"Well, now I'm done," you know? Oh, yeah. Like, "Now this is done," or whatever. And I think there's a moment where we are most losing control-

[00:47:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:47:56] Aaron: where a part of our ego wants control again.

[00:48:00] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:48:00] Aaron: And sometimes I just label, like, out of control. And then I'm like- Yeah ... "What does the feeling of out of control feel like?"

Mm. "Oh, it feels like my breath is tight, my chest is tight. Mm. Can I experience out of control?"

[00:48:20] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:48:21] Aaron: And then what happens in my ch- like, just saying yes to experiencing it.

[00:48:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. '

[00:48:26] Aaron: Cause I feel like thinking is just a way to leave our experience- Mm, mm-hmm ... and to find control again.

[00:48:31] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Depends.

And- In fantasy play.

[00:48:37] Aaron: A fan- go, uh, go on.

[00:48:38] Dr. Nicole: Uh, like s- uh, I can know that certain narratives will, like, really get me off, whether it's coming to a vision, like truly Mm ... coming while thinking about a vision in terms of that sort of meditative practice. Have you ever done that sort of, like, embodiment? That's usually something I do in my solo exploration.

Um, no?

[00:49:04] Aaron: That sounds delightful. It sounds very energetic.

[00:49:07] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, 'cause I am thinking in those moments, um, I, I have not formally trained in any of that world of, like, sex magic and people that kind of practice that. Uh-huh. That is not something that I've yet tapped into, uh, of any caliber.

However, like, the, the ability to, like... One of my favorite things to do in preparation for my podcast work is to, like, masturbate and have that full experience where I am really aligning with the vision of where I wanna go with my life as I come. Like, that is what I'm coming to. And so I don't know if that's just control or if it's more so really aligning my, my pleasure and my body's response truly to where I wanna go with my life.

And that, like, wow, that is, uh, a rocker of a practice. I think that's so lovely.

[00:49:52] Aaron: I feel like any in practices where we come to our intentions-

[00:49:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:49:58] Aaron: of life and to have ritual around intention. Yeah. So easy to get lost in the day. And for me, like, walking just, like, in, next to some trees or a body of water, and having the intention or the, having the, like, thought of, like, "Okay, every time I walk this certain path, I go to this one tree, and I re-find my intention."

Mm. And for you it's, like, when you masturbate.

[00:50:27] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:50:28] Aaron: I, I feel like how lovely to have that way to f- re-find yourself and your deeper intention.

[00:50:35] Dr. Nicole: Right. 'Cause it takes a lot of shame release, you know, to do that. Hmm. Yeah, that part. Well, to, to come on top of money or to come on top of a vision or come on all, any of that, like, that...

You know? Like, there... You know? That takes a lot of shame release. Like, there's previous versions of myself, uh, I still wear my purity ring. I came from purity culture. That's-

[00:50:56] Aaron: My family is Mormon ... that's fun.

[00:50:58] Dr. Nicole: You know?

[00:50:59] Aaron: I, I think it's lovely. I think that's so lovely to take something, anything, that at one point you felt shame with-

[00:51:07] Dr. Nicole: Right

[00:51:08] Aaron: and own it.

[00:51:10] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:51:13] Aaron: Exactly. Own it. I guess that's why, like, me, I was talking about desire earlier. Right. For me, like, really owning it. And that took the shame away and allowed me to connect- Mm ... with both other people and my own desire so much- Mm ... more richly. And I'm guessing for you, this practice allows you to connect to your orgasm so much more richly.

[00:51:37] Dr. Nicole: Right. Yeah, 'cause it's not under the sheets anymore. It's not this scared performance. It's, um... It's not performance, it's embodiment. It's almost kind of the opposite, right? It's, uh, rather than the external, it's the internal in that moment. Like, truly- Mm-hmm ... for me f- or for yourself in that moment where you're walking to the lake, right?

And you really come back to your intention. It's, you know... I love working with my clients and inspiring them to really pair together their erotic energy with their life desires, and not to have those things be so, um, put into two boxes. I really do think that your erotic life force is tied to your alignment.

And so if you're in that job that you hate, if you're doing these things, the relationship that's not in alignment, like, you're not gonna feel that desire. I think the more that you're in alignment with those pieces, the more that erotic energy flows. And so it's much easier to come to a vision because- Yeah

[00:52:32] Aaron: so much of that is- You can use it as a compass. You can- Right ... like, walk around and drop into your pussy or your cock, whatever bit you got, and let, instead of your mind or let your, or, or your eyes just, like, constantly checking in, like, "What turns me on? What turns me on?" And I feel like it's an interesting experiment to use that as a compass.

Or, like, what, not necessarily turn you on, but what are, where- Where does my, you know, my cock or my pussy or whatever- Yes ... like want me to go? What decision I'm the, do I need to make? And just using that twinge down there as- Yeah ... yeah, that's, that's where I wanna go.

[00:53:11] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely.

[00:53:11] Aaron: It can be really interesting.

[00:53:13] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And I've... So many educators have spoken about that, like follow your pussy, follow your cock, right? Love that. Now, I walked into a web with that, as any new poly person does, in the sense of, um, I wanna encourage listeners to do that, to follow that with the discernment that comes with what we spoke to at the beginning with NRE.

Because what I know, especially around women's desire, is that women's desire drops off faster in long-term relationships, way faster than men. And we also see how when women go back into the dating field, it really pops up, and so, in terms of desire. And so there's these deeper questions right now that I have as a researcher about eroticism, and specifically women compared to men, given that research in monogamy, wow.

Um, what sort of novelty do women truly crave? And we could get into evolutionary theory. It's a lot... I have talked about that on the podcast. But even if we put aside the why for now, and we, like, see the research that novelty is really important for women, you could start saying, "Wow, my pussy's responding to this novelty, this novelty, this novelty, that novelty."

And the reality is my long-term relationships, I start to hit some level of habituation. Mm-hmm. And that's not to say that I don't love these people that I've been with for three years. But there is a real reality that with any pleasure in life, the more you are exposed to it, the more gratitude and intentionality it takes to actually really feel the pleasure, 'cause that's in a habituation like with anything.

Well, I think you've lost risk.

[00:54:47] Aaron: Mm. You've lost risk in a long-term relationship. Mm. And now what part of you can you try or expose? What would be the most risky thing that you could, that's within your limits, that you'd wanna say or wanna hear? And... 'Cause the feeling you get in a new relationship is when safety meets risk, and now you're in a long-term relationship and you just have safety.

But it's on you to tap into yourself. If it's, i- you know, you have to see which lever. Is it the safety lever? Mm. Do you not feel emotionally safe with your partner? Mm. Well, that's, that, then you gotta address that. That's the foundation. But then there's, what makes you feel vulnerable? Maybe even slightly embarrassed or out of control.

What would it be like just right now to think of some things that feel a little either wrong or scary or out of control around sex that you either wanna say or do Or hear or receive that feel a little bit edgy for you. And if you bring that back into your long-term relationship, you're getting the same thing that makes a new person so exciting.

[00:56:16] Dr. Nicole: Do you really b- Mm ... like, do you believe that at the core? I, I have, I have thoughts, but, like, do you... Like, I, I feel like monkey- Do I believe that at

[00:56:22] Aaron: the core? Yeah. Yeah. I'm like- I'm like,

[00:56:24] Dr. Nicole: Oh.

[00:56:24] Aaron: I'm like, with my partner, I am, like, really aware. Like, I'll, like, let myself say something- ... that I'm like, "Oof." It doesn't always need to be, like, the really sexy trope.

It could be like- Yeah, totally ... a really vulnerable thing.

[00:56:42] Dr. Nicole: Oh,

[00:56:42] Aaron: usually it is. Or, you know, like, being in an energy, like, a really dominant energy- Mm ... or a really submissive energy. Something- Yeah ... where I'm like, "I'm not sure," and then getting it met and- Mm ... feeling devoured in that energy or trying something different.

Like, y- yeah.

[00:57:03] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:57:04] Aaron: I know that once I stop doing that, like, my sex life is gonna suck.

[00:57:11] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:57:12] Aaron: Or at least be somewhat boring.

[00:57:14] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:57:14] Aaron: And it's on me to keep playing with what feels edgy for me.

[00:57:19] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, 'cause, I mean, you're bringing in novelty through that, right? That's the experience. Well,

[00:57:26] Aaron: I'm bringing in novelty.

It is novelty, but I think the ingredient that makes it most tasty is risk. Or it's- Yeah ... vulnerability or there's an out of control. Yeah. Or there's a way to say it and that's what was in a early relationship.

[00:57:45] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:57:45] Aaron: Accompanied with enough safety.

[00:57:48] Dr. Nicole: Right.

Yeah. I mean, the reason why I- But you seem skeptical. I, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're like, "

[00:57:58] Aaron: Do you really believe that?"

[00:58:03] Dr. Nicole: I, I wanna believe it, and I, I hear that you do. And then my s- next thought is, like, well, what if this is the manifestation of the research showing itself? Like, I, you know, like the gendered bias that we have between our two experiences of life.

You know? If we see- Well- ... that in long-term relat- And granted, we know that in monogamous relationships there's a slew of gender factors, social expectations, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I feel like there's a real grief to acknowledge that I'm an animal and a monkey, and that the human brain has craving for novelty in a way that is fundamentally, like, wired.

[00:58:46] Aaron: Yeah.

[00:58:48] Dr. Nicole: I think that's what I just sit with the grief of. Not that, not to s- I want to be clear, like, I'm having hot sex with my long-term relationships, and I do. Like, we play, we do new scenes, we do all this. But I feel like there's a grief to acknowledging that the, the novelty of something new, it's always there and always tantalizing in a way that cannot be- Yeah, but you-

cannot be equated. Not to say that I don't enjoy the sex I have, and I do. I love what we do, and I love the novelty we walk in together with scenes and vulnerability and all of that. But then the novelty of, of the unknowns is just so... wow.

[00:59:23] Aaron: Yeah. So in life, it's to keep finding the unknown. You can get it through new people, or you can get it through exploring your own edges with...

Either way, you're tapping into risk again. Risk m- and safety and attraction.

[00:59:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:46] Aaron: You know? You can do it in any of these ways. I mean, it's like, you know, let's take it out of sex and into a hobby. When the hobby, whatever it is, you master it- Mm-hmm ... and it becomes predictable, it becomes boring. And kind of the opposite, where if at the beginning you don't have, like-

[01:00:09] Dr. Nicole: Right

[01:00:11] Aaron: if it's too hard, and it's just, like, totally unpredictable, and you just can't figure out how to do it right, you wanna give up. But there's a sweet spot, which people call flow state, in between when there's difficulty, but also a sense of predictability, but enough unpredictability. And that's w- the juiciest thing, 'cause you can lose yourself in it.

It's both exciting, but it's also like you can just stay in it.

[01:00:43] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:44] Aaron: You know? Uh, so I th- I, I just think that's what we're talking about. Um, what do you say the research would... Well, I guess to put a bow on that, you can get that in a new relationship, you can get that in a long-term relationship, but your sex needs to keep evolving.

[01:01:05] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yes.

[01:01:07] Aaron: Do you wanna see your partner flirt with someone else in front of you? Do you wanna be tied up? Do you wanna say... I, I don't know, say something that you feel would be hot to say or hear something, or is there something you've wanted to ask your partner for?

[01:01:24] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:01:25] Aaron: And just, like, constantly exploring that.

[01:01:28] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[01:01:30] Aaron: But you're saying the research doesn't Say that

[01:01:33] Dr. Nicole: I mean, I'm not saying that. I- Well, what we know with the research is that women's desire drops off faster than men. Now, the interpretations we make from that is kind of the space you and I are sitting in, right? Is, and I'm wondering if it's about novelty, and, and you're talking about the vulnerability pieces of it, and the novelty of continual exploration.

I think I was bringing in the novelty of multiplicity of new people because of the, um, the factors like we were saying when you're like, "Oh, I know how this person works. I know how all of that..." Like, you can't really get around the complexity that when you meet a new person, it's a blank s- space of all the novelty there.

And so, like, just feeling that monkey brain moment where the monkey's like, "Oh, a new shiny thing. Whoa." And, and at least personally for me, I felt my pussy react to that and not... Like, like my pussy is so much wetter for a new person than for my long-term partners, and that's not to say that the sex isn't hot, not to say that I can't get to amazing psychological places, but to fundamentally acknowledge that just the-

[01:02:32] Aaron: How can you experience yourself newly in your long-term relationship?

[01:02:38] Dr. Nicole: I mean, I don't just make myself wet like that. Like, it's, it's, it takes-

[01:02:41] Aaron: But how are you experiencing your... How can you... What situation would you be in where you could experience, and you don't need to answer this, but, like, where you experience yourself newly in an energy that would be edgy for you in your current relationship?

[01:03:00] Dr. Nicole: With, like, masturbation myself or with other people?

[01:03:03] Aaron: Uh, other people. You could do both, but I think here we're talking about other people.

[01:03:18] Dr. Nicole: I think, uh, more kitchen table poly dynamic sex, not at play parties, 'cause I've done a lot of that at play parties and it's a set container. So I think more at home vulnerability of the domestic with all of my partners together.

[01:03:37] Aaron: And how would it ex- what new parts of yourself that are, like, sort of edgy would you be faced

[01:03:45] Dr. Nicole: with?

It's continually that fear that, which i- is, is diminishing each day, but that-

[01:03:52] Aaron: But it's causing you to smile. Yeah. So something is still edgy about it, yeah.

[01:03:56] Dr. Nicole: Well, like, like, my, uh, my, my... One of my partners said like, "Oh, let's have Thanksgiving." I can use names. One of my partners, Rashid, was like, "Let's have Thanksgiving and have Cooper come."

And I'm like, great. Okay, so now I'd be at my partner Rashid's family, who's like newer... They... No one else has been polyamorous before, and here's Cooper together, right? So that sort of stuff where it's like really hitting the reality of what I'm doing in like generational pieces. That's like, whoa. So bringing that into a f- a- So it's a lot edgy.

Yeah, it's edgy to be, it's edgy to be that vulnerable with the, the reality of what I actually practice. I do it in a podcast space. I do it here and there. But like the second we bring in parents and then judgment of the parents, AKA why it's probably a little bit more exciting to do it in a home domestic space than in a play party, which has that like edge.

You don't tell your par- your parents about the play par- you know, like-

[01:04:49] Aaron: Uh-huh ...

[01:04:49] Dr. Nicole: there's a different space for that.

[01:04:50] Aaron: But it's like, will I be l- will I be liked or like-

[01:04:53] Dr. Nicole: Um, it's like will I be approved and will they not leave me for seeing all that? Right. Yeah.

[01:04:59] Aaron: Which is the same thing you're getting in an early date.

[01:05:05] Dr. Nicole: The early... No, maybe this is where-

[01:05:07] Aaron: Will I be approved?

[01:05:09] Dr. Nicole: No, 'cause I know I'm fucking amazing. I know that. That's why like I'm not worried about that part. And if they don't like it, don't come to my yoga class. That's fine. I think it's the novelty of like, I... This is, it probably stems from that beginning premise of my difference with the existential isolation and you feeling like you might not get, like agree with that part.

That might be the differentiation we're having. Because for me, I'm looking at this new human like, wow, like a whole universe I've never gotten to see anything into. What is this? So I- Mm-hmm ... when I meet a new person-

[01:05:40] Aaron: So I, so I was wrong. Yeah. Yeah, and I appreciate you- ... uh, you know, correcting me there. Yeah, yeah.

But, but there is, you know, while that part I think m- maybe my head was in the, didn't... Mm, my presumption wasn't right, and thanks for correcting me. Mm-hmm. Either way, there's something edgy that you can tap into- Look at that ... or you can experience yourself in a new way.

[01:06:07] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:06:08] Aaron: Which I am imagining where it almost feels like, oh my God, I don't know what's gonna happen because now my partner's parents are meeting me in the context of my other partner being there.

Mm-hmm. I don't know what's gonna happen, and something is sexy about that.

[01:06:30] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, it is.

[01:06:31] Aaron: But there's also the safety of having your partners there.

[01:06:34] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:06:36] Aaron: And I think if we just spend some moments constantly tapping into what new ways can I experience myself- That are sexy and a little edgy for me with my partners.

We can create some really interesting things, and constantly do that

[01:06:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. I don't disagree with that part.

[01:06:59] Aaron: But yeah. Regarding the research, I do... You know, we're talking about some of the most fun parts of sex-

[01:07:09] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[01:07:10] Aaron: which is, like, the novelty and the fantasy. But I do see the bigger problem in long-term relationships being a lack...

Uh, like pe- a couple ends up in a cycle-

[01:07:22] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Yeah ...

[01:07:23] Aaron: where they're both a little triggering some of the prickly parts of each other, and then they feel less safe. And arousal goes down-

[01:07:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[01:07:35] Aaron: because some of the prickly parts are getting triggered. And then it's actually less on the exciting stuff we were talking about, the risk.

It's more- Yeah ... that arousal starts to die-

[01:07:48] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[01:07:49] Aaron: because the safety, the emotional safety to be really who you are goes down.

[01:07:56] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I feel like that's often learned through... I mean, obviously there are big ruptures that happen, but sometimes it's very small ruptures. Mm-hmm. You come home. You had some sort of day.

You try to make that bid for affection, if we wanna use the Gottman terms, and your partner, "Ah, sorry," keeps texting, keeps texting. Oh, okay. Well, okay. Wow. I can't, can't bring that, you know? And then that repeated, that wear slow, wear down, wear down, wear down, wear down. Right. Yeah, 'cause I think some people think, "Oh, well, we didn't have a big rupture."

But when you look at the history of the relationship, you can see how there were these slow moments of it building over time. And now we can get into the level of classical conditioning, where this many exposures to this stimulus with this pairing, now your brain is expecting that. Mm-hmm. And we have to have a huge pattern interrupt if we're gonna have any sort of change with that.

[01:08:52] Aaron: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that's a big turn-off.

[01:08:57] Dr. Nicole: So what do you recommend your clients do?

[01:09:00] Aaron: Well, when I see a couple, it... We'll talk about the sexual cycle that they're in. You know, who is the initiator, the pursuer? Who's the withdrawer? And then we'll start to play out what happens. What happens when you pursue, and what ha- what shows up in you, the withdrawer?

Like, what is... Why... What happens inside of you when you're pulling away? Sometimes it's guilt. Sometimes it's resentment. Sometimes it's anger. Sometimes- Uh, it's I feel like I need to take care of. Yeah. Or sometimes with the pursuer, they're not pursuing necessarily out of erotic energy. They're pursuing in a way because they're not feeling wanted, and they're really trying to feel wanted.

And there starts to become this tape that shows up that's probably been in your life since before the relationship-

[01:09:59] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ... of

[01:10:00] Aaron: like, "Oh, I'm really a bad person if I let this partner, if I let my partner down."

[01:10:04] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:10:05] Aaron: And then that just shuts you off from your- Yeah ... arousal, or a tape of like, "Oh, if they're unavailable, it means I'm not a wantable person."

And then it's like your partner who's right next to you, if you say, "I'm not available right now," they just go a thousand miles away- Mm ... even though they're right next to you. Yeah. And it's about really exploring those tapes and choosing a new path. So for withdrawer, I mean, there could be many things, but it's like is there a way you can say no without feeling guilty about it?

[01:10:42] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:10:42] Aaron: And for a lot of people, they say no, but in order to leave their own vulnerability, they criticize their partner, or they say, uh... They kind of, when they say no, they go a thousand miles away, away even though they're right next to their partner because they feel so guilty about it.

[01:11:00] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:11:01] Aaron: And to their partner who's pursuing them or initiating, the most painful part might be that they lose their partner- Mm

a thousand miles away. And so they're, like, really unwinding the cycle and seeing the more I do this, the more it triggers my partner to do this. The more they do that, the more they pursue, the more I withdraw, which triggers in me a certain feeling. The more I withdraw, the more they pursue because they're feeling unwanted, and then it's not like either of you are recognizable to each other.

[01:11:31] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:11:31] Aaron: It's like the both of you are actually just not really who you are but who you are in fear.

[01:11:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:11:37] Aaron: Even on smaller scales, it's about returning to the more vulnerable emotion, naming that, and starting to change your actions.

[01:11:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:11:48] Aaron: Mm-hmm.

[01:11:49] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:11:49] Aaron: And recreate safety in those edgy moments.

[01:11:53] Dr. Nicole: Right. Absolutely. And even thinking about some of the client sessions I've had this week where people have felt like, "Wow, there's this thing I really wanna tell you, but-" I don't think I can.

I'm scared. I don't think I can." To, like, slow down with those clients too and even ask, "Well, what's the fear if you did s- share?" Whatever that is, right? Yeah. Not... Don't share what it actually is right now. We're not, we're not doing that, 'cause that's the big fear, right? But what is the fear beneath that, right?

And I feel like that's an invitation for all of the listeners to think about. If there are these pieces that you do feel like, "Wow, I, I don't know if I can share this with my partner. I don't know..." What would it mean to come to your partner and say, "I have these pieces that I'm scared to tell you," and actually process what your fear is if you were to process it, right?

It's kind of like- Yeah ... circling the plane before you land it, right? Like, we're finding the right time to land that, you know, and give yourself that space. I think it kind of... And I'm sure you know that, right, in terms of all the training you did as a therapist, that trauma, we don't just go deep into it.

We'll talk, what would it feel like if you shared this trauma? Mm-hmm. What would this, and right? And that creates the safety to be able to go there.

[01:13:00] Aaron: Mm-hmm. And here we are in now, now there's safety, but there's also risk- Mm-hmm ... because you're in this new territory, and it can be really sexy.

[01:13:11] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah. Well, I appreciate you challenging me. It's fun to be- ... met with some challenge in this space. You too. Yeah.

[01:13:20] Aaron: Yeah, yeah. I like when you challenge me. It removes my existential isolation.

[01:13:24] Dr. Nicole: Oh, there it is. Oh. Well, Aaron, I'm curious, is there anything that you would want to say to your younger self?

If you take a moment to really ch- connect back to your younger self, who is having premature ejaculation, all of the performance anxieties. What would you say to your younger self?

[01:13:45] Aaron: Hmm. I see how bad you want to be wanted, and I want you even in this state.

[01:13:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Mm. Hence the projection.

[01:13:58] Aaron: I, I w- yeah. I wrote a little about, like, insecurity on my website, which is aaronfrazin.com, which I guess I explore that a little on, 'cause what he needed was, like, work around-

[01:14:11] Dr. Nicole: Yeah

[01:14:12] Aaron: I mean, yeah, insecurity.

[01:14:15] Dr. Nicole: Do you think maybe that's why you projected that to me in that moment of the example with a new person? Um- 'Cause you're like, "Oh, you wanna be wanted." ...

[01:14:23] Aaron: totally could have. Yeah. Totally could have.

[01:14:26] Dr. Nicole: I'm seeing that. Okay, okay. Yes, that makes sense. That makes sense. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, if that's the place it came from for you, then that's, that's often what we see in other people, right?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ugh. Well, I appreciate you being s- Called out. Ah! Called in. Called in. We, we were going for it. We're, we're opening up. Um, but I appreciate you, um, being so vulnerable about those piece- b- pieces. Because what I do know is that- There are so many people who are going through the same things, and you being so vulnerable about your journey and the work that you've done with clients, it really opens that door to release the shame, to know that they're not the only person going through this, and that there is another side, right?

You're a testament to that, that there is another side to this- Mm-hmm ... when you do the work and when you get to those vulnerable, tender parts of yourself, that there's hope. And so I'm, I'm really grateful that you came on the show to offer that- Mm-hmm ... and all of your wisdom today.

[01:15:27] Aaron: Thank you. Yeah. I, I loved doing this with you.

Me too. And, um, it was delightful.

[01:15:33] Dr. Nicole: Amazing. All right, Aaron. So as we're coming to the end of our time, I'm gonna take another deep breath with you.

And I'll ask you the closing question that I ask everyone on the show, which is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:15:56] Aaron: Hmm. One thing I read in my studies of premature ejaculation is most men start as early ejaculators.

[01:16:06] Dr. Nicole: Hmm.

[01:16:08] Aaron: The majority of men start off that way. I think that's an interesting thing, 'cause you see one thing in porn- Oh, yeah

and you hear one thing in stories, but you might be more normal than you think.

[01:16:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Definitely. And with that normalization comes conversation, right? Community. Mm-hmm. And knowing that you're not the only one, which I think eases that moment as you were talking about all the narratives that go in your head, right?

So when you know that you're not the only one going through this, I think it makes it an easier time.

[01:16:43] Aaron: Hmm. I love that question.

[01:16:45] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Thank you. It's been such a joy to unpack it over the last five years and really see where people take it. Oh. Well, Aaron, it's been such a joy. I'm sure all of the listeners are dying to know, where can they find you?

I know you plugged your website. Anywhere else where people can find you and all of your content?

[01:17:02] Aaron: You know, I'm off social media- Health. Good for you ... but I have a, I have a newsletter and a blog.

[01:17:07] Dr. Nicole: Great.

[01:17:08] Aaron: I've written a lot recently about porn- Good ... about jealousy-

[01:17:12] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[01:17:12] Aaron: um, about reconnecting intimately in your long-term relationships, about losing the spark.

And so it's at aaronfrazin.com, which is A-A-R-O-N F-R-A-Z-I-N.com. Yeah, if you are a couple or an individual who wants to start a new chapter in your sex life, you could reach out to me there.

[01:17:39] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Great. I'll have all of those links in the show notes below, dear listener, so you can find them right there and connect with Aaron.

And so thank you again, Aaron, for coming onto the show today. Thanks for having me. Dear listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Modern Anarchy. Thank you for sharing this episode with your friends, with your lovers, with your community. Truly, it means so much to me, and I am so grateful that you are here.

If you are wanting to release jealousy in your non-monogamous dynamics and step into a compersion and pleasure-filled connection, you can read my book, The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide, for free on my website. There you will also find so many other free resources, including worksheets on how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non-monogamous dynamics and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure-filled sex and relationships.

So head on over to modernanarchypodcast.com to find all of those free resources, and I look forward to seeing you next week.