255. Embracing Authentic Queer Sexual Pleasure with Melissa Fabello, Ph.D

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Melissa join us for our conversation about aligning your sex life and your politics. Together we talk about decentering men being witnessed in peak orgasm and burning down the word foreplay. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world.

Tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, author of the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and founder of The Pleasure Practice, where I support individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships.

Dear listener, wow, I am so excited to be back to editing and producing episodes. Dear listener, I had edited such a good chunk of episodes ahead because I was onboarding this year's pleasure liberation sexuality groups. Okay, yeah. Uh, knowledge here. If you didn't know Dr. Nicole, me. Hi. Hello. I have been editing this show for the last.

Five years of my life every day in grad school. When I was working towards that doctorate, I was also building the space and building this gift to all of you in terms of the educational content and the conversations and the things that we have explored in this space together over the last almost five years, dear listener.

And so I'm back in my studio recording and I am so excited to share that. The Pleasure Liberation Sexuality Group, my 16 week group program sold out, and I have the most badass, rad, amazing queer people, non-monogamous people in these communities, and I am having so much fun getting to support all of them and expanding into deeper pleasure and.

Dear listener, I have been enjoying my group work so much that I have decided to have a free workshop. I wanna connect, I wanna see more of your faces, and this workshop that I'm going to be running is all about queering psychedelics. It's called queering psychedelics, set Setting, and Sacred Joy in Queer Community.

If you are queer. And you're exploring psychedelics. This is the free workshop for you. I'm gonna have it on Zoom on April 11th from 10 30 to 12:00 PM CST Central Standard Time. The link is down below. Dear Listener, we're gonna talk about how to enhance your pleasure and your psychedelic experiences.

What is unique about being queer and doing psychedelics, and how can we step into building even more sustainable communities to really deepen our ability to transform, step into our authentic self, and really be stewards of these medicines in our communities? And so there are only 300 tickets available for this free workshop on Zoom, so go snag yours before they sell out.

Share it with your lover, share it with your family, share it with your friends, and I'll be so excited to see you all then. All right, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and free resources@modernanarchypodcast.com. Linked in the show notes below. And I wanna say the biggest shout out and thank you to our newest Patreon member.

Stephen, thank you so much for joining me in the Patreon space. It's a deeply personal and private space where, yeah, there's a lot of personal things I've shared over there. So thank you for joining me in that smaller community, and it was such a joy to have you on the show as the last Relationship Anarchy series episode.

Dear listener, if you wanna hear Stephen's episode, you can go just to the last episode that came out a few weeks ago and check out my episode with Steven. And with that dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode.

Dear Listener, there's a space already waiting for you where you are invited to let go of every old script about sex And relationships and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure, empowerment, and deep alignment. I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real trans. Possible, and I'll be right there with you, guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure and visit modern anarchy podcast.com/pleasure practice to apply.

And the first question that I like to ask each guest on the show is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:06:23] Dr. Melissa: There's so much that is possible to say. Yeah. But I think in this context, I would say my name is Melissa fao. I have a PhD in human sexuality studies, and I work as a relationship coach for leftists, essentially.

So I work with a lot of people who are trying to figure out how to align their political values and their interpersonal relationships. It mostly ends up being a lot of bisexual identity and polyamory. Mm-hmm. People new to polyamory. Mm-hmm. Um, but you know, that can, a lot of different things can fall into that category.

Yeah. I think for like, for, for this purpose. That's who I am.

[00:07:07] Dr. Nicole: Great. Amazing.

[00:07:08] Dr. Melissa: That's who I am right now.

[00:07:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Well, welcome, welcome, welcome. Uh, I'll be excited to see where our minds go because I got my doctorate in clinical psychology and as I went through the program and got further and further into the messy, messy space that that is, I kept saying, damn, I should have got my PhD in human sexuality.

Damn. I should have got my PhD in human sexuality.

[00:07:30] Dr. Melissa: So, you know what, uh, no, you shouldn't have really, I. It does, it does. It does not help your job prospects at all. How about that?

[00:07:43] Dr. Nicole: Mm sure.

[00:07:43] Dr. Melissa: It's not it, it's just a financial drain. Yeah. There's nothing comes back to you.

[00:07:46] Dr. Nicole: Sure, sure. I hear that. So I hear that. I hear that.

Yeah. The practicality probably, but

[00:07:53] Dr. Melissa: But topic wise,

[00:07:54] Dr. Nicole: yeah, topic wise, I'm like, dude, I was studying the war shock for weeks. Like you think that

[00:07:59] Dr. Melissa: Yeah, right, right.

[00:08:01] Dr. Nicole: I don't care about that shit, you know? So, but I hear you. I hear you. So,

[00:08:06] Dr. Melissa: mm-hmm.

[00:08:07] Dr. Nicole: Okay. Okay. So talking about your personal journey, I love to get into the personal connection to these topics.

What's your story? How did you get to the space of liberation for you?

[00:08:18] Dr. Melissa: I, you know, I wish I could put that very simply. Let me think. How did I get here? I think, you know, it's actually, it's interesting. I'm actually in a really interesting place in my life at this moment where I am living in the house that I lived in when I was a teenager.

[00:08:35] Dr. Nicole: Oh, wow.

[00:08:36] Dr. Melissa: Oh yeah. So I,

[00:08:37] Dr. Nicole: everything's coming up.

[00:08:38] Dr. Melissa: I have, everything's coming up. I'm currently in the town that I went to high school in.

[00:08:43] Dr. Nicole: Okay.

[00:08:44] Dr. Melissa: And this of course brings stuff up. Um, but some of what it brings up is I think a lot about, you know, people will ask that question, like, what would your 16-year-old self think of you today?

And I turned 40. Well, actually by the time this comes out I'll be 41, but I guess that doesn't really matter. Yeah, yeah. But anyway, I recently entered my forties and thinking, what would my 16-year-old self think of me today? And my answer is generally there are things that she would be like, huh, I wouldn't have guess guessed that, but like, it makes sense.

But for the most part. I feel like I'm the exact same person. I feel like my 16-year-old self will be like, this makes total sense to me.

[00:09:24] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:09:24] Dr. Melissa: For me, I feel like the way that I saw the world and understood the world was always the same. It's just add, I've just had layers added to it, more information added to that convictions maybe getting stronger the more information that I have.

But I think in terms of this question of like, you know, trying to practice authenticity and trying to practice, uh, a liberated life isn't necessarily something. That I struggled to come into. Mm-hmm. I actually just recently emailed the current student advisor for the GSA at my old high school. So when I, so I, because me and my friends founded the GSA in the early two thousands, and at that time it was Gay Straight Alliance.

Now they're calling it the Gender and Sexuality Alliance, which is way cooler.

[00:10:20] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:21] Dr. Melissa: Um, but my point being like, okay, my 16-year-old self

[00:10:25] Dr. Nicole: was there

[00:10:26] Dr. Melissa: was, yeah. Was do. That's what my 16-year-old self was doing, you know, and so my. Journey to where I am now, I think was more of a shedding of, you know, my parents as I grew up telling me, calling me a bleeding heart liberal, or saying that I was, you know, oversensitive or that when I, as I got older, I would understand things differently.

Hmm. You know, like that joke, like, it's not even a joke. It's actually like research based, which is that most generations have gotten go further to the right as they get older. And millennials are the first generation where that's not happening.

[00:11:06] Dr. Nicole: Love that.

[00:11:07] Dr. Melissa: Yeah. Love that.

[00:11:07] Dr. Nicole: Love that. Yep.

[00:11:08] Dr. Melissa: That feels, that feels right to me.

Yeah. So I think, I think my journey has been my entire like coming of age and at this point in my life I feel really solid. In, you know, who I am and what I believe.

[00:11:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:27] Dr. Melissa: But it's, but that doesn't mean it isn't an, a challenge,

[00:11:31] Dr. Nicole: you know?

[00:11:31] Dr. Melissa: Yeah,

[00:11:32] Dr. Nicole: yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I love that grounding for you and that you're able to continue to build like more and more layers to what you've believed in.

And I imagine deeper embodiment of it, more language, uh,

[00:11:45] Dr. Melissa: language is a huge one.

[00:11:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Oh yeah.

[00:11:47] Dr. Melissa: Like my 16-year-old self would not have identified as a feminist.

[00:11:51] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Wow. Okay.

[00:11:53] Dr. Melissa: But my 16-year-old self believed in all of the things that feminism entails. Just, you know, like that kind of language stuff.

[00:12:01] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I remember. So I grew up very conservative Christian. I still wear my purity ring now as a reclamation and of a long journey, uh, which is not anywhere where I'm at from the beginning, but, um. I remember going to Christian school and one of my, uh, teachers, he was like, well, someone said, oh, you're a feminist.

And at the time I was like, well, that's bad. You know, that's bad. Feminists are bad. And he told the, the girl, you're not a feminist. You don't have your hair grown out on your legs and you're wearing makeup. When you're really a feminist, you don't wear any makeup and your hair starts growing out on you.

[00:12:34] Dr. Melissa: It's, you know, it's, it's why that, that, you know, this is what a feminist looks like. Yeah. Became a thing at all. You know, I unfortunately am clocked that way.

[00:12:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:12:47] Dr. Melissa: Um, for better, for worse. But I have all the telltale signs of a feminist, but physical aesthetic science, however, yeah. It's a really. We've, I, I think that there were things I had to learn, obviously over the course of my life, but I don't, like, I talk to so many people in like your position, who are like, oh, I have completely flipped

[00:13:11] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:13:12] Dr. Melissa: Over the course of my life and had to, and it's like being a queer person, I'm being a woman, you know, et cetera in the world. There are things I had to learn and claim for myself and struggle through and continue to do so, but my like values have not had a huge shift.

[00:13:30] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I'm so excited to tap into that and the wisdom of that, you know, and get to speak about that today and.

It is true. I have started growing out my body here, so maybe my teacher was right.

[00:13:44] Dr. Melissa: It does it. Yeah. I mean, there's, there's truth in jest, you know,

[00:13:49] Dr. Nicole: Uhhuh, Uhhuh, Uhhuh. Maybe that's a good place to start. I know you wanna talk about decentering men, right? And so even there, I can imagine how, you know, the, the traditional patriarchal views of women and what your body hair should even look like, all of that, right?

Um, there's a long history to what that looks like of colonization and trying to really split genders and the whole thing. And I'm curious, where do you wanna start that conversation of decentering men?

Yeah. That deep breath is so real.

[00:14:23] Dr. Melissa: Where does, where does one start? Um, you know, I think that the conversation about Decentering men has become. More mainstream in the past, like six months.

[00:14:34] Dr. Nicole: Okay.

[00:14:34] Dr. Melissa: It's something. Or maybe over the past year.

[00:14:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:37] Dr. Melissa: Not that this isn't, not that this hasn't been a conversation people have been having for a really long time.

Yes. But I'm noticing it becoming like more mainstream. Mm-hmm. Even I see when we talk about the male loneliness epidemic, I see so many comments from women, you know, on TikTok or Instagram under posts about men saying they aren't lonely enough. You know, like when, when there's like, you know, a story about like a man doing something horrible, they'll be like, they're not lonely enough.

[00:15:02] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:15:03] Dr. Melissa: And, and that is becoming so mainstream in, in a way that I find really fascinating. And so, yeah, I think that this is such an interesting conversation about the exhaustion that so many marginalized genders and perhaps women especially feel. Around men and a desire to figure out how do I live my life outside of, um, trying to gain approval or validation from this group of people who ultimately, I don't even really respect as a group.

Maybe not in like, obviously there's individuals, but like as a group, I don't even respect at this point, this group of people. Um, why am I trying so hard to like, um, I don't wanna do that anymore, and which I think is really cool.

[00:15:51] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, there's so much in the unconscious and so much in survival, right?

When we think about the fact that. We are social beings. Granted, our modern technology is making that more and more possible to be hyper individualized, but mm-hmm we also need people. And so part of that survival need and, and basic social need means that we wanna be accepted by other people. And so if the systems that we live in have been controlled by men, set up by men told how to be approved by, by men, right?

We're living in a world where constantly for our survival, we have to be approved by the system that they built. And so I have so much empathy for my younger self and for all of us even today who are like still like, uh, why do I feel like I need to show up in this way? Even though I know like critically that I don't want to do that?

You know, like, why do I feel like I need to perform and all this? It comes back to that survival need that our whole system, especially in America, I always, you know, love to think about the fact that look at even our dollars. Oh yeah. Tell me, do you, do you see a femme body on one of those fucking dollar bills?

[00:17:01] Dr. Melissa: Yeah. You know, like, and, and, and it's exploitative, like ultimately it's like you're saying there's so much, obviously that can, and that of so much of what we do that can be tied back to our evolution in our social needs, like you're saying. And I feel like these systems and institutions exploit those needs, um, because we don't need patriarchy.

Mm-hmm. We don't need that at all. Yes, though. If we start to associate, for example, when you think about the science of, you know, quote unquote mate, attraction and selection. There is a clear biological and social need to be, you know, cared for in that way, to have a partner that it makes sense that that is something that we desire.

That's something you see across the animal kingdom. It's not unique to us. What is kind, what is unique to us is the desperation with which we are like taught to seek approval from men to self abandon in order to be chosen to be mate selected. Mm-hmm. Um, and it's, I think that we are just starting because marginalized genders.

Are having these experiences in the world, it's still an unsafe place for us. Um, and trans people especially. However, there is also this piece where, for example, I can have a bank account

[00:18:28] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:18:28] Dr. Melissa: In the last years. So I don't Yeah. So only

[00:18:31] Dr. Nicole: 50 years though.

[00:18:31] Dr. Melissa: I know. I know how lucky, how lucky I am. Um, but, so it's like, well, okay, so the, the socialized ways in which we, particularly as women, have been taught to depend on men, some of that stuff is like fading away.

Yeah. And I think men are freaking out about it.

[00:18:48] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah, for sure.

[00:18:49] Dr. Melissa: That's, that's where the male loneliness epidemic kind of comes in. Mm-hmm. To the conversation. But it's like women, let's say, don't need men the way that we have historically. And so we're not. We're starting to let go of all sorts of stuff.

[00:19:05] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah, absolutely.

[00:19:07] Dr. Melissa: You know? Mm-hmm.

[00:19:08] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. So I'd love, love to slow down and unpack so much of that. Right. Because right. Women couldn't have their own bank accounts in their own name in the, that's a last 50 years development, and I think sometimes we forget that that's a hundred percent political.

Last 50 years has, oh my gosh.

[00:19:26] Dr. Melissa: And even 50 sounds like a big number, but we're talking about the seventies.

[00:19:30] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:19:31] Dr. Melissa: Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Do you know, like, it's kind of wild to think of the seventies as being 50 years ago, but that's literally like our parents.

[00:19:39] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:39] Dr. Melissa: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. So don't forget that one, dear listener, when you're moving through the world. Right. And so, and then when I think about the socialization to want, um, uh, even the biological frame, right, to want a male partner, right? We, we know that. Before colonization. We moved in larger sorts of groups where it, of course, like in terms of the biological, to create another human, we would need sperm.

Right? But, um, the, the need for a partner is very new, like that frame of a partner, right? We always lived in much more group nomadic moving in, in, in collective units. And so it wasn't so much of a need of a person. And even in my dissertation, there were some different groups around the world where they would practice, um, having sexual dynamics.

But not stepping into what we might put a frame in our western con concept of romance mm-hmm. Where they would just like have sex and then come back into the community and part of their frame was that like a, any sort of romantic relationship hold you away from the community and actually was dangerous.

Mm-hmm. Right. And so it's like, I think that's something I had no idea. My 16-year-old self, 16-year-old self, like deep in Christianity, had no idea that, hey, like Nicole previously, before all this white colonizer bullshit and what we did to indigenous people in America who weren't practicing mono, like horrific things.

Mm-hmm. Um, we were in groups of people and sure you would mate, but you were held by the full community. And so even this pressure to have one male, one straight heterosexual monogamous relationship is a very recent concept.

[00:21:20] Dr. Melissa: Oh yeah. And when we think about the ways in which that upholds the state

[00:21:25] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:21:25] Dr. Melissa: When we think about the relationship between what we're taught to need and the government, you know, it's like people ask me all the time, oh, you're against marriage. Like you don't believe in marriage, so do you, what happens if people you love get married? You know? And I'm like, well obviously I celebrate them.

I go to their wedding and I appreciate their individual choice to be married, I guess. Sure. But overarchingly, you know, one of my examples that I give people is, why do married couples get a tax break?

[00:21:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:21:53] Dr. Melissa: Why do married couples get to share health insurance? You know, whether we're talking about financial security or we're talking about our literal like access to healthcare.

Tho those should be human rights. Those should not be things that are unique to people who are married. In what ways does the government, does the state. Push us into, in a way, nuclear family systems. Yep. And like you're saying, the nuclear family, the silo of the nuclear family is not natural. Mm-hmm. It's not natural, it's not healthy.

It's why a lot of us are unhappy. Mm-hmm. I think too about, um, when the whole like, world shut down because of COVID in 2020 and the rules that were placed on us. Mm-hmm. Like, oh, you can have your, like, you know, your group, your pod, your bubble of people that you live with, nine times outta 10, that's a nuclear family.

[00:22:43] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:22:43] Dr. Melissa: That's who you're allowed to see. You're not allowed to see your community. And the way that we accepted that is Okay. That makes sense. Not all of us. Mm-hmm. But that we accepted that because we're also used to rules being like you're saying they're patriarchal, they're white supremacists, they're, you know, the symptoms of colonization.

We accept something like, oh yeah, I can only see my nuclear family for the foreseeable future. Um, without thinking about. How completely unnatural that is. Mm-hmm. And how desperately we need community.

[00:23:17] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:17] Dr. Melissa: Actually to survive. And how many people became incredibly depressed, but during that time

[00:23:23] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah.

Yeah.

[00:23:24] Dr. Melissa: And like why do you think you're depressed? Yes. Obviously there's something horrible happening that is like terrifying and traumatizing. Mm-hmm. But there's also this piece of you're humanity is being taken away from you. Your access to community has been taken away from you.

[00:23:38] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Oh yeah.

Absolutely. And thinking about men have way higher rates of suicidality. Right. And part of that comes from the hyper individualistic, no emotions disconnect that I will say is not innate to men in any capacity, but it's a part of what we teach to young boys from a very young age of, Hey man up, stop crying.

Your sister over there, she can cry. She's emotional. She has these cycles and these things, you know, like, so like totally. These narratives start to really, and I think that's where we see it long term. And as you're saying, the system creates, it shouldn't, let's be very clear, I think probably most people listening to this podcast are, are questioning of the systems and the government, right?

But for our mainstream consciousness, it creates this frame of what's okay or not, right? Oh yeah. If the government says it's, it's approved and legally, then it's great alcohol, right? It's approved, it's legal. It's one of the most dangerous drugs. I work in psychedelic assisted therapy, so this is part of the frame is like alcohol is one of the most dangerous drugs, the most like deaths and experiences, suicides on it.

It's huge, right? Compared to something maybe like mushrooms, right? Illegal.

[00:24:43] Dr. Melissa: Totally

[00:24:43] Dr. Nicole: illegal, bad,

[00:24:44] Dr. Melissa: totally

[00:24:45] Dr. Nicole: bad. It's like, uh, okay. Okay. So like you're saying like. What's legally sanctioned by the state then becomes acceptable. Right. So monogamous, this nuclear family, acceptable. Even if I wanted to, quote unquote play the heterosexual game, can I marry two men?

No. No, you can't.

[00:25:03] Dr. Melissa: Right?

[00:25:03] Dr. Nicole: No, you can't.

[00:25:05] Dr. Melissa: Right.

[00:25:05] Dr. Nicole: Why, why not? I was like,

[00:25:09] Dr. Melissa: truly.

[00:25:10] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. You're like, why not?

[00:25:12] Dr. Melissa: Like truly, if we're gonna have marriage, why can't we have more of it?

[00:25:15] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly.

[00:25:16] Dr. Melissa: Yeah. It's, I I think what Yeah, what you're saying makes complete total sense. And it's, it's, it's so hard because we're also socialized not to think about these things.

And like you're saying, me and you and the people listening to this podcast are people who have already, who are already like, something's not right. This isn't right. So it's not us per se.

[00:25:38] Dr. Nicole: Right?

[00:25:38] Dr. Melissa: Right. Although, you know, there's things we learn every day that's like, oh my God, here's another thing.

[00:25:44] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:25:44] Dr. Melissa: That, that's fucked.

[00:25:46] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:25:46] Dr. Melissa: Know. Um, but it's like. In general, most people, like, I'm sure the listeners like have this experience when you try to talk to people about being queer or non-monogamous or decentering men or any of those. Not believing in marriage, not wanting to have children.

[00:26:03] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:26:04] Dr. Melissa: People are like, what?

Like people, the general public really struggles with it. Because I remember my mom one time made a comment where she was going through some kind of like training at work, I don't know. Mm-hmm. But she was like, is nothing that I think. Coming from my own brain. Then she was like, have, I've been taught to think everything that I think, you know?

And I was like, yeah, actually.

[00:26:30] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, actually.

[00:26:31] Dr. Melissa: And it's wild. It's actually wild when you realize it.

[00:26:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:26:35] Dr. Melissa: None of this is my real opinion. Even these conversations, we can sometimes pat ourselves on the back, like, we're so radical and different and counter-cultural, but like there's still, uh, some kind of system or, or like hierarchy of thought, right.

That brings us to, well, this is what I think. Right. Even if it's radical, I'm still learning it from somewhere.

[00:26:56] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:26:57] Dr. Melissa: We're social learners through and through.

[00:26:59] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:27:00] Dr. Melissa: Speaking of our evolution.

[00:27:02] Dr. Nicole: Right. Absolutely. So I think that talks about our interdependence.

[00:27:06] Dr. Melissa: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:07] Dr. Nicole: Uh, and that's where I think the concepts of free will and that question can become very interesting.

And if you see freedom as being completely outside of the influence of other people, then we have no free will. Absolutely not. Like, you know what I mean? So it depends on how you wanna define freedom and what that looks like. I, when I think of freedom, I still think of interdependence as an anarchist.

[00:27:26] Dr. Melissa: I, I, yes.

I still think we should be responsible to other people. I think there's a difference between anarchy and a complete lack of responsibility. Yeah. And I think people, not you obviously, but I think ideally people, people mistake those things. You know? And I, I, I totally like, I think it's about choice. It's like we should have all the information available to us.

And then we should be able to make decisions. Like, I'm not anti monogamy. I'm anti compulsory monogamy.

[00:27:53] Dr. Nicole: Right, right.

[00:27:53] Dr. Melissa: You know?

[00:27:54] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, totally. Totally. When we think about even the language that is coming out of our mouths right now, I didn't create this language. It was taught to me.

[00:28:01] Dr. Melissa: Exactly.

[00:28:02] Dr. Nicole: Right. And so, and we know there's like the SE four hypothesis sort of thing, and it's a general concept that our language shapes how we think, right?

Yes. And so even this language that I'm speaking is from other people and impacting. And I think as you step into more expansive relationship styles, it's always, at least you'll, I'm sure you'll resonate with this scratching for more language, hence compersion or these other sorts of dynamics that we're trying to like figure out, especially with sexuality of like, how do I name what I want and what's going on here?

Um, 'cause that's not a practice thing, right? And so we're like scratching to find the language of this. And so when it comes to. Choice. It's, it's hard because our set and setting right now is so not ideal. Right? So we think we have freedom of choice, but do we really? Right, right. Uh, the container is, is definitely not, not great.

And, and as you were speaking, even with having kids, right? We've, we've worked to such a space to be where we're at now, and it's still fucked up. I'm gonna be very clear and there's still way more to go. And also I think we can recognize even the last 50 years with birth control and all that sort of stuff, we are in a different space where there is more acceptance, right.

But with things like expansive relating and, and even with kids, right? And the fucking body hair that I'm growing out. There's this world where when you do that, people look at you with disgust and judgment.

[00:29:23] Dr. Melissa: Oh yeah.

[00:29:23] Dr. Nicole: Uhhuh. And it really taints the ability I think of, of choice and freedom when that's, again, coming back to the unconscious and the social desires to be accepted.

It's a very hard space to see that as freedom when the the choice is going to get me ostracized, potentially kicked out at work, potentially legally. Some people have gone after people who are polyamorous with kids to add, to say that they quote unquote, aren't stable parents. Like that's not a free space to choose.

[00:29:51] Dr. Melissa: No. And I think that it becomes why we end up in these like bubbles of, you know, when I step out of my radical leftist bubble of people that I know and I'm like, oh wow. You know, it's like. I forgot, you know, like, I, like, theoretically I know the world is like this, but now I'm in a conversation at the grocery store and I'm like, what the fuck?

Yeah. You know, it's, um, and I think that's why sometimes we create, end up creating those spaces and, you know, people have a lot of derogatory kind of things to say about the idea of an echo chamber. And yeah, obviously we want there to be diversity of thought, right? That's how we make our own choices and, and process things and come to our own conclusions.

But I also think it makes sense that a lot of us, particularly as you know, as your beliefs and values become more extreme, quote unquote, it becomes important to be surrounded by people who understand you. Mm-hmm. And understand what you're talking about. And like you're saying, language can be so powerful.

As a way to help us. It's also limiting, but it can be really powerful in helping us understand ourselves, like you're saying, whether it's defining my sexual desires, my sexual identity, um, how I experience relationships. I need these words. Um, but yeah, I also need a community of people who understand what I'm talking about.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then, look, here we are, then we have our community and our social needs being met.

[00:31:20] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:31:21] Dr. Melissa: Outside in some ways of the system. We're all inside the system, but. You know?

[00:31:27] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. It builds resilience. I think the more that you have that, um, yeah, I won't even use echo chamber or bubble 'cause it does come with such like negative connotation.

The more you have that circle in your community, the more you can have that conversation at the grocery store, which is a moment of politics, right? Like how are you gonna hold that conversation? And I think when you have that circle of people who do see you, you have more grounding and somatically you feel.

Seen and, and held in such a way that I think you have a bit more softness when you can come into that conversation. Yes. And so that, that like identity formation model of getting to a space where you do need, when you are a marginalized identity, you do need a community so that you can feel safe and understood and um, yeah.

It's, it's truly just not safe often. Right. There's, um, I'm currently in Indiana for like a weekend getaway with some queers, which is like super cool because someone has a house out here. But like, wow, you do go into these other coffee shops or these little spaces and you're like, wow, this is, there's a lot of America flags.

There's Yeah, there's a certain energy here. Like I don't feel safe kissing my partner who's a femme here. Like this is a little bit of different, um, and, and not even, 'cause I think I would be hit physically, but. Also just blanketly sexualized in a way that I'd probably be stared at in a way. And it so it doesn't feel safe.

And then also there is even more of a spectrum where, like my, my therapist, I've been with her for like seven years and I love her and adore her. She's also monogamous. And so there are these moments where these like, like micro ruptures in her level of understanding where like,

[00:32:54] Dr. Melissa: sure,

[00:32:55] Dr. Nicole: recently I was with one of my partners who's starting to date this other person.

And so I met her at a party and I was like, oh. So I met this, this other person that my partner Cooper's starting to date. And she went, oh, oh, how was it? You know, as if like, that's like something that to brace for in her own body as she's experiencing it. Where I think that when I say it to my other, you know, polyamorous friends, they're like, oh, cool.

Like, what was she like? You know, like, yeah. And so that tone shift where then I have to go to her and be like, no, it's okay Heather, I love you, but like, it's okay. Like, don't worry. You know? And so like there are these moments whether it's like actual, like safety, physical safety, more like emotional safety and then like shared understanding and all of that is.

Draining.

[00:33:36] Dr. Melissa: Yes.

[00:33:37] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:33:37] Dr. Melissa: It is draining. It's very draining. And it's draining to feel like people don't understand. I mean, I think of like being a white Mm. I guess I'm middle aged now, relatively young, you know, cisgender, like woman moving through the world in a lot of ways. Yeah. I mean, I have a lot of privilege moving through the world.

Mm-hmm. Including in my queer relationships, visibly queer, you know, relationships. And yet, I mean, I experienced a few years ago a trans partner of my being spat on,

[00:34:12] Dr. Nicole: oh God,

[00:34:13] Dr. Melissa: that street. In Philadelphia.

[00:34:15] Dr. Nicole: Wow.

[00:34:16] Dr. Melissa: You know, like you're talking about Okay. Being maybe in like rural Midwest.

[00:34:19] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:34:19] Dr. Melissa: This is a northeastern damn, one of the largest cities in the country, you know, and it's, and so there can be these moments of like, you know, I think people think, oh, it's safe now, you know, to be queer, to be trans.

Well, I think a lot of people say that it's not safe to be trans right now. Yes. But like, it's actually not, it's not safe to be. Queer out in the world, to be honest. Do I move through the world fearful of being hate crimed? No. Um, because I live in major cities, not right now. Mm-hmm. I'm living in Maine.

Mm-hmm.

[00:34:52] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:53] Dr. Melissa: But, uh, most of the time I'm living in major cities, it's not usually a concern for me. Uh, and yet I can be very surprised that, you know, oh, yeah. When certain things happen. Or like you're saying, being femme when I've dated other femes, the level of sexualization. Yeah. And it's not even just stares, it's things people will say, Ugh, men especially.

It's like, and, and sometimes I wanna say to people, yeah, of course I have a lot of privilege in the world. Do you know what it feels like to have the person you love being sexualized by like a man? It's like doubly bad. You, you know, being cat called is bad enough. Imagine being cat called with your partner, you know, or watching your partner get cat called.

It's mm-hmm. Awful. It is. I mean, even just right now I feel like visceral disgust. Yes. You know?

[00:35:38] Dr. Nicole: Yes, absolutely.

[00:35:40] Dr. Melissa: So there are these experiences that are like God, like sometimes even in my own, whether it's my, you know, my social group that I'm with. Mm-hmm. Or just the amount of privilege that I have, I almost forget Yeah.

That these things can happen.

[00:35:54] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:35:54] Dr. Melissa: Um, and, and it's, yeah, it's disturbing.

[00:35:57] Dr. Nicole: Totally.

[00:35:58] Dr. Melissa: Which is why. We decenter men.

[00:36:00] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. And I, I love when

[00:36:02] Dr. Melissa: do you like that segue? Do you like Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I brought it back.

[00:36:05] Dr. Nicole: It's all together. Uh, and I, I think it's so wild too, because that's when I, when I, and I know not all play parties and spaces are the same, so I wanna say that of course.

But in like, these ideal spaces where I'm at, where it's like a queer kinky play party, and I am basically naked in like extremely sexualized where, and like, um, embodying all of that, and no one says rude comments to me. No one touches me without my consent. Right? It's all like, it's so beautiful in these spaces where I can be actually so in the sexual, but because of the community and the values there, it's so safe in that way.

And I know, you know, it's not a monolith, there are play parties with lots of complexity of course, but like, when you're in that right space, the values, right, it's, it's. So jarring to me how I would go out to bars and be like, touched Yeah. Non consensually by men and I'd be like in, in less revealing clothing, you know, never to blame myself, but like, just the context of it is even less sexual and more scary in terms of sexuality than stepping into a hundred percent sexual space where it's so deeply consent based.

[00:37:16] Dr. Melissa: Well, right. I mean, I think that's the thing that makes the difference Yep. Is like, I am choosing to be in this space. I have, we have shared values. I know that in this space, if someone does something that's assaultive, they will get kicked out.

[00:37:31] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:37:31] Dr. Melissa: You know? Mm-hmm. Versus walking down the street. I mean, I've been groped just like in broad daylight.

[00:37:38] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:37:38] Dr. Melissa: You know, by men more than once, you know, it's like, and it's. In the world, you're not safe. No. Which is like, this is why I think those spaces get created or we create these social groups where we feel, and like you're saying, they're not actually safe. Nowhere in the world is actually safe. Right. Like you can be assaulted by anyone anywhere.

[00:38:00] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:38:00] Dr. Melissa: Um, you know, lesbian relationships, queer relationships aren't safer. Yeah. You know, per se. But it's like there's, there's a way that you are seen as an autonomous person in certain groups that you're not in the world at large. So why? Why would I wanna be out in the world at large? I told, rather than in my quote unquote echo chamber, you know?

[00:38:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:38:23] Dr. Melissa: Or my bubble, like well's, my bubble. I know that if I say someone sexually assaulted me, probably people will believe me.

[00:38:32] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:33] Dr. Melissa: You know, and have like an accountability process with the person who assaulted me. Mm-hmm. Versus out in the world, I have to just keep walking.

[00:38:41] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:41] Dr. Melissa: That's horrible.

[00:38:43] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:43] Dr. Melissa: That's horrible. There's nothing I can do in that situation.

[00:38:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. You can even become the president.

[00:38:54] Dr. Melissa: Right.

[00:38:54] Dr. Nicole: You can fucking do all that shit and become the president.

[00:38:57] Dr. Melissa: Yeah, sure can.

[00:38:58] Dr. Nicole: Yep. Exactly, exactly. Drinks tea. Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so then thinking about how much that impacts our body, right?

Because I do feel very lucky to have the community that I have and to live in Chicago and to be running in queer community. And so like that provides such a, like a level of, as you were saying, like when you're thinking about being sexualized and your partners and these different experiences, like you feel that in the body.

And so I'm always interested in the somatics of the experience, especially around sex, which is somatic. There's brain stuff too, but like so deeply sematic that like, uh, when you are walking through the world with all of that tension and tension and tension that's going to impact your ability to access pleasure.

[00:39:44] Dr. Melissa: Oh, I mean, yeah. And we are not taught to access pleasure at all. Women, especially like, or anybody who's not a cis man, essentially.

[00:39:56] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:39:57] Dr. Melissa: Um, I think a lot about actually how our sexuality, you know, is stolen from us before we're even able to be sexual beings. We're not really sexual beings until puberty.

And how many young girls were assaulted, abused cat called before hitting puberty?

[00:40:16] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:40:17] Dr. Melissa: Almost all of us. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. Most women that you talk to will be like, oh yeah, the first time I was catcalled I was 10

[00:40:23] Dr. Nicole: mm.

[00:40:24] Dr. Melissa: You know? And it's like our sexuality is. Four men is, is stolen by men before we even get to figure out what our own desires and boundaries are.

[00:40:38] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:40:39] Dr. Melissa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that is so deeply disturbing. Mm-hmm. In my last partnership, uh, my partner had. Three small children. Uh, and I remember one night with my stepdaughter who was probably five at the time.

[00:40:51] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:52] Dr. Melissa: Um, I was like rubbing her back to sleep because she specifically asked, can you do this?

And then she would be like, Melissa, can you rub my arm instead, Melissa, can you? And then she'd be like, okay, I'm done now. You know, she was very clear and I remember just thinking there's gonna come a point in time where she's not comfortable anymore expressing clearly her desires and boundaries

[00:41:13] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:41:14] Dr. Melissa: Around her body. And that is so sad.

[00:41:17] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:17] Dr. Melissa: Like, it's so sad that you can watch a small child, uh, a little girl express how she wants her body to be touched, and when she doesn't want her body to be touched and to think, how long is this gonna last?

[00:41:30] Dr. Nicole: Hmm.

[00:41:31] Dr. Melissa: You know? Yeah. And I think that so many of us have that experience of, oh, I had to come into my authenticity.

I had to fight for it. Uh, and I think that's really common for women in their thirties and forties. They start to be like, wait a minute. You know?

[00:41:46] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:41:47] Dr. Melissa: It's why a lot of like later in life, like lesbians or, or bisexual, like women come out Yeah. Is it's, it's not because necessarily something that you were doing, it's because of the way that you weren't allowed to access your authentic sexuality for most of your life.

[00:42:03] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:03] Dr. Melissa: You know? Mm-hmm. It was assigned to you.

[00:42:07] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And even when you think about the words that are used, I'm pretty sure the ental nerve that runs through all of our generals, right? It, it means shame, you know? So like in Latin, so if you just, even if you go back to the names, if we start there, right, in terms of the basic anatomy, which most of us are not even taught the basic anatomy.

No. Right? Oh, it's a pussy. It's that, or it's like you're never taught, like here's your labium major, here's a, here's the clitoris, right? Here's all no.

[00:42:35] Dr. Melissa: Even, you know, it's usually just down there.

[00:42:38] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Private parts.

[00:42:40] Dr. Melissa: Yeah. You don't even get, you don't get any name at all. It's, it's just,

[00:42:44] Dr. Nicole: which

[00:42:45] Dr. Melissa: a, a gesture.

Uhhuh.

[00:42:46] Dr. Nicole: Yes. And as can you touch down there? Well, where, uh, well, uh, uh, well, I, oh God, I actually don't know where, you know, and then I think for me, it wasn't until I was like 27, 26 that I really said no for the first time in a sexual dynamic, which is heartbreaking to say out loud. But it also have very real reality that in the paradigm I was taught to like, give my body, give my body, give my body to my future husband.

And I was working through that as I was having sex with other people and feeling like broken and all of that fun stuff. Um, but to really like be in the middle of a sexed act and actually pause and say, no, I wanna stop right here. Oh my God. Yeah. 26, 27 to have that liberation of my voice to say no. I

[00:43:33] Dr. Melissa: mean, it's still hard.

[00:43:34] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:43:34] Dr. Melissa: It's, you know, like it's, it's, even when you start to practice it, it can be really difficult. Um, especially in certain gender dynamics. It, it can be really hard to be like, this doesn't feel good. I don't wanna do this, you know?

[00:43:50] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, totally. And um, recently when I was home for hanging out with my mom, we were decided to watch like an old film.

And we watched 16, I think it's 16 candles.

[00:44:02] Dr. Melissa: Mm-hmm. With Molly Ring wall,

[00:44:03] Dr. Nicole: yeah. Mm-hmm. And when was that movie made? The eighties.

[00:44:06] Dr. Melissa: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:07] Dr. Nicole: Okay. So we were watching it and there was the scene where, um, I think it's like the homecoming queen, the pretty blonde girl, the classic traditional, she's like drunk at the party and she has a boyfriend there.

And the rest of the guys are going, why aren't you going and fucking her, like, while she's passed out drunk, like, why aren't you going to do that? And he is like, I don't know, I just don't really want to right now. And so like, the, the frame of that isn't like, please don't have sex with this unconscious woman and rape her.

It's like, why aren't you raping her?

[00:44:36] Dr. Melissa: Mm-hmm. And, and I think so many jokes, and this is something people, you know, 'cause they'll say it's not that serious. It's just a joke, but a joke, humor is a social tool. And, and, and humor only works in the con in the social context that it exists in. It's like, it actually is really important because you need a, you need a context for the joke.

And so. What is that context? What is the container we're all in? And it's misogynistic, it's violent.

[00:45:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:09] Dr. Melissa: We are used to and in a, in a scenario, I think like every woman on earth will know Exactly. Will have tons of, uh, memories of this experience. If you push back on a joke, whether it's sexist or it's racist or it's whatever, and you're of the marginalized group being targeted, the response is, why can't you take a joke?

[00:45:30] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:45:31] Dr. Melissa: You're right. Yeah. And so then you're like almost gaslit into thinking that you are annoying. You know, it's the, um, kill joy, you know, it's feminist kill joy or whatever. It's like, oh, mm-hmm. Yeah. You can never make a joke around this person. They take things too seriously and it's like, yeah, I'm sorry.

I took it seriously that you're joking about sexual assault. That's not funny to me.

[00:45:51] Dr. Nicole: No.

[00:45:52] Dr. Melissa: You know.

[00:45:52] Dr. Nicole: Exactly, exactly.

[00:45:53] Dr. Melissa: Um, but you're still the one who's wrong mm-hmm. In the social context that we're in.

[00:45:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. God forbid you're hysterical right there. It's Oh yeah. Like mm-hmm. Gosh. She's so hysteric.

Wow.

[00:46:05] Dr. Melissa: Making a big deal out of nothing.

[00:46:07] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. It was wild. Do you, um, do you, the naked bike ride, do you have those where you

[00:46:12] Dr. Melissa: Yep.

[00:46:12] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Okay. So I participated in the Naked Bike ride this last year, which I have done in years past and had great times. And obviously there's always like an interesting range of reactions from people like completely cheering you on to being like shocked.

And this year when I was riding it was really interesting. Um, there was this group of, of men outside of a restaurant and this very tall white guy who yelled at us. And as we biked by, he literally yelled and I will quote. I hope you all get shot in the fucking head. Cool.

[00:46:47] Dr. Melissa: Cool. Why, what are you mad about? And that's like a credible threat. Not that I think he was threatening to do it.

[00:46:56] Dr. Nicole: Right. Right, right, right.

[00:46:57] Dr. Melissa: But you know, that's actually a credible problem in the United States. That's not just like a throwaway comment. I mean, how many times are women told like, I hope you get raped.

I mean, that's not unusual. That unfortunately is not unusual. Especially if you're someone with any kind of public platform where you're speaking out against these things. It's, you can look at it as, it's kind of funny 'cause it's like you're actually proving my point. Um, but there's this other piece of it where it's like, this is the world we live in.

Yeah. Like, this is the world that we live in where

[00:47:30] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:47:31] Dr. Melissa: People, mostly men feel completely comfortable saying stuff like that.

[00:47:36] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:47:36] Dr. Melissa: You know, I saw a video on Instagram the other day where a woman who was formally a, a stripper was telling a story essentially about a client of hers. A regular of hers who she found out that this man was like, oh, my daughter looks just like you.

You know? And yeah, every single woman is like, oh, that's, I know exactly the inference there.

[00:48:00] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:48:00] Dr. Melissa: Wow. But there were all these men in the comments who, unsurprisingly, who either didn't get it, were like, nobody knows what you're talking about. And all the women were like, no, we do. Um, but a lot of them were like, oh, cool.

So you're a stripper. That we're just like, completely like,

[00:48:15] Dr. Nicole: oh gosh,

[00:48:16] Dr. Melissa: you know, giving her shit for being a dancer. And it's like she's literally talking about a man with like these like incest fantasies. You're not worried about him. You know? Yeah. Like, but that's, you're, this is where you're going with this, is that you just hate women.

You just hate women, and you think that women should be punished. And, and here is this woman on a public platform, simply naming that she's been a dancer and you, you go-to is to degrade her.

[00:48:45] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:48:46] Dr. Melissa: Who's surprised?

[00:48:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:47] Dr. Melissa: I'm not. Mm-hmm. I guess when I see things like that, but again, like that is the context that we live in.

[00:48:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. The, the levels of cognitive dissonance to hold all of that is so jarring to me how people,

[00:49:02] Dr. Melissa: it's actually amazing. It's like, that's honestly incredible, uh, that that's how, that, that's how you move through the world. That's terrifying.

[00:49:10] Dr. Nicole: Oh my God. Oh my God.

[00:49:11] Dr. Melissa: I know. Sometimes I just wanna be like, have you actually ever spoken to a woman?

Ever?

[00:49:14] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:49:14] Dr. Melissa: Sometimes when the things I see men say, oh, like, oh, she's making this up, or like, whatever. It's like, clearly you don't, clearly you're not safe enough for women to talk to. 'cause I guarantee almost every woman, you know, has a story.

[00:49:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:27] Dr. Melissa: About being

[00:49:28] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah.

[00:49:29] Dr. Melissa: You know, violated.

[00:49:31] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Oh, yes. I don't think I know a single woman who doesn't have a least a story of violation.

[00:49:37] Dr. Melissa: Yes. Some kind of violation.

[00:49:39] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah.

[00:49:40] Dr. Melissa: You know, and the ones who claim that they haven't, you know, is, is usually just a misunderstanding of what violation is.

[00:49:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And there was some other podcast I was listening to where she was talking about like how deep patriarchal society is and how much it's influenced, especially America, right?

It's puritans who really like, did all the bad things to to, to the people puritans. Um, and so when we think about that, um,

Sheda said like, oh, so if you feel like you have not been impacted by purity culture, like great love that for you. Now let's go into this thought experiment. If there was a video of you in orgasm that became public to the world, would you look at that as one of the highest forms of your embodiment and empowerment to have the world to see?

And if not, what does that say about sex?

[00:50:34] Dr. Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. Well, exactly. And it's like, is is that about me and my relationship to sex, or is it about my, like, first thought around something like that was like, I don't wanna be seen by men.

[00:50:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Because of those Yeah.

[00:50:49] Dr. Melissa: I wouldn't mind that. I wouldn't mind just like women and queers seeing such a thing.

Yeah. But cis men, no thanks.

[00:50:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah,

[00:50:55] Dr. Melissa: no thanks.

[00:50:56] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:50:56] Dr. Melissa: I don't want that.

[00:50:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:57] Dr. Melissa: Um, ever. And the safety.

[00:50:59] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:51:00] Dr. Melissa: Yeah. And so, and it's, and it's like, but exactly what you're saying is what have we been taught around our own sexuality that takes us away from that sense of authentic desire. Mm-hmm. In what ways have we been taught to be ashamed of ourselves that are just deeply, deeply, deeply patriarchal.

[00:51:23] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:51:24] Dr. Melissa: You know, or what ways have we had to feel. Learn how to like, protect ourselves, you know, from men. Mm-hmm. And how does that impact how we move through the world? I mean, like, I'm like exactly the fact that you said that and my first thought was like, oh no. Like I, you know, and that's not about how much of, that is about my own inherent shame.

We don't have inherent shame. It doesn't exist.

[00:51:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:51:53] Dr. Melissa: It's created, we are born with shame, you know?

[00:51:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:51:56] Dr. Melissa: So, yeah. Where does that come from?

[00:51:59] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Well, and we could get, uh, and I'm always, I always tread this conversation with so much lightness, but the concept of epigenetics there. Yeah. Uh, for the listener, I've talked about this before, but, um, they had done some studies with m.

And we're not mice, but a lot of our research comes from mice. Um, and so they had classically conditioned the mice to be afraid of the smell of cherry blossoms. And so they'd like bring in the smell of cherry blossoms and then bring in some sort of negative stimulus, usually like a shock or something else to pair the two.

And so then they didn't do that for the subsequent generations of the mice that they bred, and it was up to, I think three or four generations that they were still afraid of cherry blossom. So, mm-hmm. Let's remember, like we said 50 years ago for, uh, our ability to have credit cards and a bank account or name.

It wasn't until the 1990s that marital rape was illegal in all 50 states in America,

[00:52:55] Dr. Melissa: 1993.

[00:52:56] Dr. Nicole: Thank you.

[00:52:56] Dr. Melissa: Took, took until 1993.

[00:52:58] Dr. Nicole: Thank you. I love that. You know that.

[00:53:00] Dr. Melissa: You know, the only reason why I know it is because my favorite movie of all time, Jurassic Park, was also released in 1993. Yep. And so whenever I hear about 1993, it sticks in my head.

[00:53:10] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Because I always mess with the day.

[00:53:11] Dr. Melissa: I'm 90. 90, I'm not 90, it's just, uh, I associate it with dinosaurs. So,

[00:53:17] Dr. Nicole: great, great.

[00:53:17] Dr. Melissa: Yes. 1993. Mm-hmm.

[00:53:19] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. I love that. And so if you think about, okay, what that's, you know, very recent thinking about the epigenetics of fear in our body, right? That's one generation.

What is two generations? And the generation before that, and especially when you think about, like, even just in terms of birth and the experience where, um. When we are in utero, we start to form the eggs, right? Mm-hmm. So my mother's eggs were formed in utero with my grandmother, right? And so what was the embodiment as a woman for my grandmother and whatever epigenetics she was carrying?

What is she holding that has been transferred to me and it. A lot. Mm-hmm. And obviously I say that within the context of like, you can also pass down the resilience mm-hmm. Of your community and your ancestral line. And you can also change that, right? We're not mice, we're able to do exposure work and therapeutic work and healing work.

And so I say that not in a way of saying like, we're broken and it's inevitable. 'cause I think that's a very close narrative that could start to happen from that. But also, let's have a bit of scientific context of how some of these things are actually. Coded because of safety and years of social conditioning.

Mm-hmm.

[00:54:30] Dr. Melissa: Absolutely. Absolutely. It's not just your own experience and the trauma that you've gathered over the course of your life, which is bad enough, but yes, it goes back and back and back.

[00:54:42] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:42] Dr. Melissa: And how serious is that, Barry?

[00:54:44] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so I feel like there's a, a level of acculturation as you start to step out of this, because like you were saying, when you're at the grocery store and you're having that conversation, you're like, whoa, what is this?

It's almost like, um, gosh, my younger self would be like, what is this crazy girl talking about? But resonance and energy, right? A, a sort of frequency. And if that feels way too crazy for the listener who's tuning in, it's like, it's like music, right? There are certain songs, which by the way is vibration and frequency and energy, but.

You know, uh, there are songs that you resonate with and you're like, wow, this sounds good to me, and others that you don't. Right? And so when you're, when you're coming into this world that we're speaking of, of our echo chambers and our bubbles, at least for me, it was a slow acculturation process of getting closer and closer and closer to these sorts of groups.

And it sounds like for you, you kind of started in that space. And so depending on where your positionality is, dear listener, in this social system, you'll have ha walked like a different journey of getting closer and closer to these values that maybe at once, like for your 16-year-old self, you're like, cool, this is all in alignment.

My 16-year-old self would be praying for me, like mm-hmm. Constantly, literally. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:56:05] Dr. Melissa: Yeah, it's a journey. Yeah. It really, it really is. And when you think about something like the amount of work that we have to do, um, to try to come back to what is our birthright?

[00:56:17] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:56:17] Dr. Melissa: You know, like our sense of authenticity.

We have to fight so hard to come back there and, uh, but thinking about, you know, the work is never done. We uncover certain things and that's beautiful and that's awesome. And we step into our authenticity in lots of different ways, but like, how many things, what's gonna come up for me in 10 years and be like, wow, 10 years ago I wasn't even thinking about that.

Like, it was not even clear. Did you ever feel like, um, psychologically with yourself, with clients, whatever, where it's like, okay, I, I, I worked really hard on this, let's say pattern or this trauma or whatever, and now it's like healed enough. You know, and then it's like, hi, you know, there's just some brand new thing that you're like, well, I didn't even know this was a problem.

Mm-hmm. Like, what is this? Mm-hmm. It's like no matter how much work you do, the work is never over. Um,

[00:57:05] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[00:57:05] Dr. Melissa: But how do we see that instead of seeing it as kind of like, what is the, what is the point?

[00:57:09] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, totally.

[00:57:10] Dr. Melissa: This is exhausting, but rather like, oh, look at all of these, these ways that if I put the work and the energy in, I actually can start to heal these things that have essentially, honestly ruined my life.

[00:57:22] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:57:26] Dr. Melissa: How do I say no more? Mm,

[00:57:28] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm. Yeah. And the orgasms are more powerful on that other side of the no more, right? Mm-hmm. The more you get that no, the more you can come harder. And I, yeah. I think it's important in that journey to, you're right, it's never gonna be over.

That can feel just like you wanna throw up your hands in the air. And usually when I feel that feeling, I remember the history, right? Like we were talking about the nineties, 50 years ago, let alone a hundred years ago. You know? And so I, I take a moment where I take a step back and think, okay, I'm gonna do my.

Most badass effort to unpack all of it in my lifetime and trust that I am leaving seeds for the future generations who are gonna take it. Mm-hmm. Even farther than I can possibly conceptualize because of my positionality. So I take some sort of deep embrace of the finiteness of my life, the inevitability of death, and the continuation of future activists who are gonna take this much further.

[00:58:29] Dr. Melissa: Yes.

[00:58:30] Dr. Nicole: And also like taking a moment to look back. That's where I think it is helpful. Like, look back and see how far you have come, because you're right when you're climbing the mountain, if you keep looking up and up and up, you never look back down, which is sometimes a skill if you're afraid of heights.

So maybe, mm-hmm. Maybe. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Maybe just keep looking up, you know, because you don't wanna look back, you know? That's one way. But I do think when you look back down, it's, it gives you that context. You're like, whoa, okay. I have climbed.

[00:58:56] Dr. Melissa: Absolutely. And I think remembering too, that. We are all future ancestors and I, you know, I'm gonna get a little spiritual for a second.

Go for it. But we're all future. I feel it's really important to talk about spirituality detached from religion.

[00:59:12] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:59:12] Dr. Melissa: Um, so that's

[00:59:13] Dr. Nicole: decenting men.

[00:59:14] Dr. Melissa: It real, like truly, it's, it's actually like super radical.

[00:59:18] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:59:18] Dr. Melissa: Um, the more people I talk to about it, you know, they're so blown away by this. That's a whole other topic.

[00:59:22] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:59:23] Dr. Melissa: But, um, we're all future ancestors, whether or not you have children.

[00:59:28] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:59:28] Dr. Melissa: You having children is completely irrelevant to the fact that Yes. In a traditional sense, we talk about ancestry as like a family tree, but in reality, think about the relationships that you have with other people. And let's say maybe those people a, are having children and then your presence is impactful to them.

Mm-hmm. But also I believe that. We will be assigned in the afterlife and, and you know, that we will be assigned people to care for and to look out for. And we, and even if you don't believe that, even if you wanna look at this in a super kind of material list way, we have an impact on the world.

[01:00:14] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah.

[01:00:14] Dr. Melissa: And that has an impact. These little ripple effects have an impact on future generations. So like whether or not you have children is irrelevant to the fact that you are an ancestor. You are.

[01:00:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:26] Dr. Melissa: And when you talk too about looking back, speaking of ancestry.

[01:00:29] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:00:30] Dr. Melissa: And whiteness and colonization especially.

Mm-hmm. I think it's super important for white people to have a relationship to their in ancestral journey.

[01:00:42] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[01:00:43] Dr. Melissa: I think that a lot of one, the assimilation to whiteness. Um, that we have experienced over time has detached us from that. I think that's where sometimes a lot of like cultural appropriation and stuff comes from is a lack of relationship to our own ethnic culture or cultures.

Um, but I think that also looking back shows us the resilience of those who came before us. Mm-hmm. And like you're saying, like how that lives in Me too, and how do I pass that on?

[01:01:13] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:01:14] Dr. Melissa: So it's deep.

[01:01:17] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah.

[01:01:18] Dr. Melissa: Yes. It goes beyond just this current, again, whether you're taking a spiritual, you know. Uh, lens to that, or just a material lens to that we are not, the present is not all that there is.

[01:01:33] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:01:35] Dr. Melissa: Mm-hmm. So that's important.

[01:01:37] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. It's fun to know that the listeners who are tuning in, like our voices are vibrating through their bodies currently. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, it's like, whoa, like you're tuning, like this is inside you. Did you know that? Yeah. You know, like, did you know we're inside you?

Yeah. Oh, I love that. Yeah. And so like, knowing that, that even our laughter, right? The moments we take like that is rippling through that person and rippling through their consciousness. And so yeah, we trust. In those ripples on a broader scale because no, no single one of us is gonna change this whole system.

Right? No. We all have to be pulling our thread on the tapestry. And so it sometimes you're like, I just have this thread like what is this? This, this thread is not enough. I see the tapestry, right? But it's that moment of trusting that if we're all doing that together, it will slowly start to unravel. And man, I'd love to like unravel it faster, but like just the context of time,

[01:02:28] Dr. Melissa: there's only so much that we can, the context of time, like, you know.

But I also think it's a very western and white and individualist viewpoint to feel like speed time, but also to feel like I have to do more. We all could do more, of course, but that feel like trying to, bringing it back to the idea of community. If you imagine each person in your community holding a thread, you know, that's actually hugely impactful.

[01:02:55] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:02:55] Dr. Melissa: Um, and it doesn't have to be about each one of us has to solve a problem. You know, like, I can't solve world hunger. I wish I could. Yeah. You know, I can't. Yep. But. How do we move toward that solution together? Mm-hmm. I think is powerful. Yeah, absolutely.

[01:03:12] Dr. Nicole: These systems are huge and there is a lot we can do there, and we need that.

And also the personal is the political. And so that grocery store moment is a moment of your politics. Mm-hmm. Even the choice of what grocery store you go to with your money, Uhhuh, with all the mail faces on those money, right? Mm-hmm. Like on those dollars, that is a political choice of where are you going to use that resource and give that power over to, and then write.

Um, all of those sorts of moments are politics. And so I think often we can get overwhelmed by how big the empire is, not just in America, but globally, and the, the tendrils and the roots that that has around. And it can feel like it, it brings me into this very common space of trauma response where it's either like, fight, fight, freeze, um, fawn or flight, right.

And. I think it's important to remember that there's still control in the personal right. And so trying to move with your value systems and embody that in the relationships that you have as much as possible. And like we're saying, trusting in the ripples of that to really make change over time. And, and that's where I can find a little bit more of control in the deep, uncontrollable ness of what it means to be human.

[01:04:26] Dr. Melissa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Thinking about the choice that you do have, respecting the choices that you don't, right? Like your financial position mm-hmm. Might not give you as much choice to decide what grocery store to go to, for example.

[01:04:39] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:04:39] Dr. Melissa: Um, and it's like, um, what choices do you have? And not that any of us are perfectly living our values because not a single person on Earth is, and, and remembering that too, that you, that your imperfection is also normal.

Um, but yeah, that we do have. Choice. We have choice in like who is a part of our life. We have choice in how we, um, operate on like an individual level, just like moving through the world. And that stuff is important. Like you're saying, that moment in the grocery store, you know, is a moment of how am I, how can I be true to myself?

[01:05:21] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[01:05:22] Dr. Melissa: Yep. That the best I can in this moment.

[01:05:24] Dr. Nicole: Yep. Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely. I appreciate that reminder that we're all not living it fully. Right. I, I I think that's something to embrace the humanness of that. And so that's why I like the words practice, right?

[01:05:37] Dr. Melissa: The practice intending toward is something I talk a lot about, like when people talk about being anti-capitalist or even like relationship anarchists, it's like we are intending toward that because it's almost impossible to be that perfectly and purely when you're in the system that you're in.

Mm-hmm. So, um, yeah. How do we intend toward. The values that we hold, right. How do we practice them?

[01:06:02] Dr. Nicole: Right? And I see that as deeply spiritual, right? What a spiritual practice to be that intentional with your time, your energy, and all of that. And

[01:06:09] Dr. Melissa: mm-hmm.

[01:06:10] Dr. Nicole: I appreciate the, I talk about it often or I'm, I'm finding resonance with you in terms of the sense of we're gonna get to the end and always be like, wow, there's more.

And the humility that comes with thinking, wow, I've gone so far. And then you like, find this new, do we wanna say web? Like you walk into a spider web, right? Or something, something, whatever frame we wanna use for it. Um, maybe we, we find a mirror, you know, somewhere where we now have to look at ourselves.

Um, and I think for me, one of the most, um, in terms of like decentering men drawing it together, um, one of the biggest things for me is the, our space of desire, right? And there's so much of our conversation that comes to this, like, oh, this is innate. This is what my desire is innately within me, and therefore respect it.

And part of that is also to get to a space of liberation. To have different identities around desire that need to be respected. So like it's innate and Nate, and also the cultural critique of how much of our desire is based on society, right? We know when we do research cross-culturally around even body size, that different cultural context will have you be more attracted to one size than the other.

Cut the nineties in America. Fuck. Um, where in countries where more like, you know, malaria and other sorts of things, like that's a sign of like death and like, so that thinness would be not attract, you know? So be. I hope the listener gets that. So, um, or I know my listeners get that. Let's speak with confidence.

Um, and so when we think about that, so we have to hold that context where all of our desire is also a part of the system and something to respect as deeply innate, but also something to have a critical eye to, right? And so I remember earlier in my journey, obviously like way in Christianity not being attracted to queers at all, despite having queer longings because too much cognitive dissonance to hold all of that, right?

And then being in a space where I was unattracted to men who cried, being in a space where I was unattracted to bisexual men, right? Mm-hmm. Which is like now my most like ideal world. Like please gimme a queer like mask person who can cry. You know? So like watching how that evolves over time. Some of the things that I've noticed with my, my life of decentering men is still how even in polyamory I would put men at the center.

And maybe now it's not just one. But it's like multiple men and really centering them and noticing how much more cultural narratives are there. And I feel like this is something I hear a lot with my clients and in the community of my queer relationships feeling less sticky. I can see more movement and and possibility with them, I think 'cause there's less narratives there.

But then in the relationships with men, there's so much re um, relationship escalators and societal expectations. And so even though it's multiple of them still finding myself in a space where that's where I look to.

[01:09:00] Dr. Melissa: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I mean. To decenter men. Like we don't inherently decenter men by decentering monogamy.

Do you know what I mean? Like those are two completely different. Yeah. Yeah. It's like those are two really different Oh,

[01:09:16] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[01:09:16] Dr. Melissa: Uh, domains, you know, that you have to, that you have to move through. There's a decentering of patriarchy I think that can happen.

[01:09:23] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:09:24] Dr. Melissa: Inherently with decentering monogamy. Yeah.

Um, but I do, I know lots of, uh, and I mean, we could unpack this forever, how this happens, but I know lots of polyamorous women who will have like four partners, but they're all men.

[01:09:38] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:09:38] Dr. Melissa: You know, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it's, it's, it is like a, how did that happen? You know, like queer women who it's like, it's not as simple as, oh, well that's just who I fell in love with or whatever it Well, how did that happen though?

You know? Mm-hmm. There's, you do have autonomy here. Um, and why is it easier? Socially, like it's not even necessarily about the individual, but what makes it easier for this to happen? Um. Mm-hmm. And I mean, I talk to clients all the time when they are talking about, you know, I want to focus on queer dating.

I want to have queer experiences, but I keep finding myself falling into relationships with men. What should I do? And I always have to be like, take them out of your dating pool. It is actually the only way.

[01:10:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:10:26] Dr. Melissa: Because of how we're socialized. It's so easy to. You know, find comfort and safety and familiar familiarity in relationships with men.

Um, whereas if you're queer dating for the first time, the amount of stuff that you have to unlearn, relearn, yeah. Yeah. Learn, yeah. You know, about cultures, you know? Yeah. Like queer culture that maybe you haven't, you know, been in in that context. Yeah. Like, there's so much work actually that has to be done to do that, that it's like, oh, this is just, you know, it's just a neural pathway of like, this is easy, you know?

Mm-hmm. I know what this feels like. I know what to expect. Brains love to be able to predict things, like mm-hmm. This, I can predict this queer relationship or queer sex is so unpredictable,

[01:11:12] Dr. Nicole: right.

[01:11:12] Dr. Melissa: Because they don't have a cultural context for it. Mm-hmm. That, yeah. It's like the, the amount of work that it takes to unpack.

Any of this, you know, is a lot. And, and, and speaking of threads, you know, it's a bunch of threads. Mm-hmm. It's not, um, and they're different. The, the threads are different. Mm-hmm. It's not as simple as, once I unpack this, it's like so many people will be like, once I came to my sexual identity and understood that, all of a sudden gender came up, it's like mm-hmm.

It's like that's gonna happen. If you're like, I'm unpacking, you know, cis heteronormativity, it's not unusual that then you start to question monogamy, you know? Yeah. It's like they're all connected, but they are separate. Mm-hmm. In a way. Mm-hmm. You gotta unlearn 'em all. It's an adventure.

[01:12:01] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. It's a journey.

Yes. Mm-hmm. Follow the white rabbit down the matrix hole. Mm-hmm. Yes. And once you get there, you're like, whoa. There's lots of systems actually that are, are made up. Why am I following these? Right? That's something I definitely saw in my dissertation, uh, on relationship anarchy. It was all queer, gender queer folks.

And for once, my, my limitation in my research was, wow, I didn't have any like cis hetero people, you know, like mm-hmm. Which is usually the flip. And so part of like the discussion part of the dissertation was talking about how yes, when you live outside of the, the norm in an identity, whatever that might be, you, you naturally start to question the whole thing.

If the tooth bury isn't real, then maybe Santa and the Easter bunny aren't real too.

[01:12:49] Dr. Melissa: That's exactly how it happens. And it's, it's not. There's a reason why there ends up being just like so much overlap where it's like, oh, so many non-monogamous people are queer. So many queer people are non-monogamous or whatever.

It's like, yeah, once you start to question one thing, right, you start to question a lot of things,

[01:13:06] Dr. Nicole: right? Yeah. And thinking about my different experiences, I'm thinking about like group play that I've done with different men in my life. Like there's a way where you can be like, cool, I've unpacked purity culture.

I'm having this threesome. It's so great. I have these two men here. I'm, I'm shutting all of that. But you can still recapitulate the expectations of sexuality where, um. If we want to be objectified hot, awesome. That's what we want. Great. And there's also a way where sometimes I feel like we can do it unconsciously, where we're playing into the scripts.

Totally. Or totally. I'm being totally double teamed.

[01:13:41] Dr. Melissa: That's, and that's a hard thing to, it's like makeup. I love makeup, you know, but it's like, it, that's such a, it's like a, how do I know if I'm using the makeup because of me versus the way I've been socialized. And at some point I just tell people, that is a thought experiment that is not useful because you're never gonna be able to solve it.

So we're never going to not live in the vacuum.

[01:14:03] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:14:03] Dr. Melissa: But yeah. So that question, I hear it come up with, let's say, group sex, uh, that like queer women are having with like a, let's say just as an example, a cis woman and cis man

[01:14:14] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[01:14:15] Dr. Melissa: Where it's like, how queer, quote unquote, is this, because in what ways am I performing for the man

[01:14:21] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[01:14:21] Dr. Melissa: Who is in the room?

[01:14:22] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:14:22] Dr. Melissa: And not that like, obviously if you're. A lady going down on a lady. Yeah. Like you're having queer sex. I'm not trying to say that that isn't what it is, but in what ways are you doing it for the male gaze?

[01:14:33] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:14:34] Dr. Melissa: And in what ways would you have sex, let's say differently if it was just you and the lady?

What would, would it look, would it look different if you weren't doing it while a man is in the room?

[01:14:44] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:14:45] Dr. Melissa: Um, you know, in what ways do we just inherently perform for men? Because we have been taught to perform for men. Right. So. Right. Um, it's, and it's why I feel like for me, in my journey of decentering men, a lot of where that, I think people assume that comes from like a hatred of men.

It doesn't come from a hatred of, of men, actually. It comes from a love for myself.

[01:15:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:15:08] Dr. Melissa: And my realization that. In my connections with men, romantic, sexual, platonic, whatever, in those connections, I cannot help a fawn to men.

[01:15:20] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:15:20] Dr. Melissa: And I just, I don't wanna do it anymore.

[01:15:22] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[01:15:23] Dr. Melissa: And the only way to, to stop that is to stop having relationships with men.

[01:15:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:15:27] Dr. Melissa: Um, and that being a very active choice for myself. Sure. Because I find that in my queer relationships, in my friendships with women, you know, in queer sex, that the level of authenticity I'm able to achieve has always been, and I've been in queer relationships having queer sex since I was a teenager.

I have always felt safer. Mm. More comfortable. Mm-hmm. More myself. Mm-hmm. In those connections. So, at some point in my life, like 10 years ago, I was like, why am I even accepting what is, to me almost always gonna be subpar?

[01:16:04] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:16:05] Dr. Melissa: With cis men. I'm done. Yeah. I don't wanna do it anymore. I don't wanna put my energy there.

To me, when we're talking about decentering, it's, I don't wanna put my energy there. Yeah. I have limited energy. I want to give my energy to queers. I wanna give my energy to femmes. I wanna give my energy to marginalized genders. I don't want to give my energy to cismen.

[01:16:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:16:26] Dr. Melissa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um. And Yeah.

And thinking about, like you're saying, the resource of money.

[01:16:31] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:16:32] Dr. Melissa: Your energy is also a resource that you get to decide where you're

[01:16:35] Dr. Nicole: gonna put it. Oh, yes, yes. You know? Yes. Huge part of relationship anarchy, I think in the terms of like non hierarchy and what that means in our limited finiteness.

Absolutely. So, mm-hmm. I, I imagine there might be space then where it feels more aligned with like, uh, like mask non-binary folks or like trans folks in that sort of sense. It's like the cis hetero that really like, is that space for you?

[01:16:58] Dr. Melissa: Yeah. Oh, definitely. And it's like, you know, in what ways? Even when I think about, I love the sexual dynamic that I have with masks.

Mm-hmm. I love that sexual, it's very different

[01:17:09] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:17:09] Dr. Melissa: From the sexual dynamic that I have with fems. And I, I love to play with the, the gendered piece of that. Yeah. And what I've noticed is having sex with masks versus having sex with cis men mm-hmm. Is. There's a socialized piece that doesn't exist.

[01:17:27] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

[01:17:28] Dr. Melissa: With men, it often feels like, here's the expectation of like what this dynamic is gonna look like. Right? Because I'm a man and you're a woman, and this is what we do.

[01:17:36] Dr. Nicole: Yep, yep, yep. Here's a script,

[01:17:37] Dr. Melissa: you know, versus exactly the script versus whether I'm having sex with masks, femes, it doesn't really matter.

There is no script there, and I feel like with masks, that sexual dynamic, it's not that I'm unattracted to masculinity.

[01:17:50] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:17:51] Dr. Melissa: You know? Or Or not into penetration.

[01:17:54] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:17:54] Dr. Melissa: Or something like that. Yeah. It's like, but this is way more fun for me.

[01:17:57] Dr. Nicole: Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:17:58] Dr. Melissa: And having a lot more fun in this context and this dynamic.

Even if I'm having tons of fun, I've had great sex with cis men. Totally. Like, it's not like, like I've had great sexual dynamics with cis men in the past.

[01:18:10] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:18:12] Dr. Melissa: At the end of the day, where did I feel safer and more myself and less performative? Yeah. It's always be a queer relationship. Sure.

[01:18:18] Dr. Nicole: So

[01:18:18] Dr. Melissa: why don't I focus my energy there?

[01:18:20] Dr. Nicole: Right. Which is so real. Which is so, so real. Yeah. And

[01:18:23] Dr. Melissa: shouldn't be as radical as it is, or like why Yeah.

[01:18:26] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:18:27] Dr. Melissa: People find it like they cannot even wrap their head around it. That you could make that intentional choice.

[01:18:32] Dr. Nicole: Right. Because of everything that we've spoken about. Mm-hmm. Right? Like all the context, the unconscious, the safety, the, the world that we live in, that makes so much sense that it would feel so radical to folks.

I, I love domine, cis heterosexual men. Like, I love, like I love Domine. And I think for me, I found so much joy in when I am with like queer men or even cis hetero men to like really step into the space of like, for, for folks that have penises, like, I find so much empowerment in knowing that like, I get to come and orgasm as many times as I fucking want during that scene.

And they do it once, you know, theoretically some prostate orgasms the whole thing, but like I can come as. Many times,

[01:19:18] Dr. Melissa: you know, I think it's so funny, I, I don't have multiple orgasms personally. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, um, I don't like relate to that. Sure,

[01:19:25] Dr. Nicole: sure, sure.

[01:19:25] Dr. Melissa: I, but, but I do think it's like the penis envy

[01:19:29] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:19:29] Dr. Melissa: You know, belief that people have Oh. And like, whatever is, I'm like LOL even as someone who only has like one orgasm.

Yeah,

[01:19:36] Dr. Nicole: yeah, yeah.

[01:19:37] Dr. Melissa: Um, at a time. I'm like, I would never, I would never give up what I have. Like, you know, even when people are like, what if you woke up and you like, were a man? I'm like, I'd be horrified.

I would not be like, people are like, oh, like I'd obviously, I'd have a wink or whatever. I don't know why I'm using like, like I'm British, British, but you know what I mean? Like, I'm like, I, I would not,

I would actually be horrified, but like, I think, um, yeah, I think it's such an interesting, it's just so funny the way that we tend to believe certain things, you know? Or even, you know, even if, if you take the multiple orgasms out of it mm-hmm. It's even like the, the clitoris has more nerve endings Oh, yeah.

Than the entire penis does. Which part of that is, you know, a problem with, um, circumcision, which, you know, is a topic for another day, but it is like, I'm, I, I like what I've got.

[01:20:28] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:20:29] Dr. Melissa: I like what I have. Thank you.

[01:20:31] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:20:33] Dr. Melissa: And

[01:20:33] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[01:20:35] Dr. Melissa: It is truly, I think, yeah. Finding those, those ways where, oh, I just feel more like I.

Um, a pretty through and through with masculine energy sub. I don't, I can switch, but I'm like very, very suby. Mm-hmm. And, um, I find so much more freedom and. Fun.

[01:20:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:20:57] Dr. Melissa: Subbing for queers than I have had. Oh, yeah. And I have had a, I have had a ton of fun subbing for cis men. It's not, again, it's not that that's not possible, but the dynamic is just, it's just different.

[01:21:08] Dr. Nicole: Totally.

[01:21:08] Dr. Melissa: It's just different. It's, and I feel so much more in my power

[01:21:13] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:21:13] Dr. Melissa: In queer sex than I have ever felt.

[01:21:15] Dr. Nicole: Totally, totally,

[01:21:16] Dr. Melissa: absolutely. And sex with men, um, even when I've had a ton of fun.

[01:21:20] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And I think that's the joy of it, the psychological expansion where some people would say like, oh, you've been, you've subbed before.

How is it any different? It's radically different. Off,

[01:21:30] Dr. Melissa: it's radically different. I don't even know how to explain it.

[01:21:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:21:33] Dr. Melissa: You're about to tell Nicole,

[01:21:34] Dr. Nicole: RAWR uh, it's, each person is different. I think that's an important thing with any sort of expansive, non-monogamous dynamic is to understand that each person is a whole universe in and of itself.

So it's gonna be different. Yes. But then also, yes, all of the things we talked about, and then also the gender dynamic, the scripts, and that's in all of us, like we're saying, it's a lifelong journey of unpacking that. So all of those scripts come into that moment, and literally on my agenda today, after this, as I'm getting domed by my, my queer partner, Catherine, and I'm very excited for it.

And it's fundamentally different than when I'm with my other male partners like Cooper Rashid, where it's like a very different space and energy because of all the context that we've talked about. And so there, the, the removing of the scripts creates so much opportunity for new ways to, to, to play and, and new expectations.

[01:22:27] Dr. Melissa: Go ahead.

[01:22:28] Dr. Nicole: Even,

[01:22:28] Dr. Melissa: I'm just getting really excited.

[01:22:29] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, even the voice, like think about the voice and the embodiment and how that shifts. And like we were talking about vibrations and so when you're getting a dom with even more of that, like deeper tone that I could imagine from my male partners versus the softer whisper, you know, or the embodiment, like all of those tones and frequencies do create a different song that you're experiencing.

[01:22:48] Dr. Melissa: Yeah, definitely. And I think it's also like I hear a lot of people, you know. I work with a lot of people, women who are bisexual, who have only been with men. Mm-hmm. And this fear of like, I won't know what to do in a queer sex situation, which is totally valid. Yeah. Because we don't have the scripts for it.

And how do we reframe that though to like, that's what makes queer sex the most fun. Yeah. Is like, you have to be like, what do you wanna do? Like, you know, because there isn't the step one, step two, step three. Yeah. Where like that we tend to follow. Mm-hmm. And that lack of, uh, that lack of a script creates a lot of freedom, I think.

[01:23:25] Dr. Nicole: Totally. Yeah. This is something I talk about in my letters. I have an educational newsletter that I send out to folks who are subscribed on the website, and I talk about the, you know, we know the relationship. Escalator and there's also the intimacy escalator. Mm-hmm. So thinking about those as two spaces and where there's that expectation, it's very heteronormative of, you know, attraction, touching, kissing, quote unquote foreplay, which is a word I, oh my god.

Like to burn down.

[01:23:52] Dr. Melissa: Same, same. It's so funny you say that. I have like an Instagram post in my head that I really wanted

[01:23:58] Dr. Nicole: Please do it.

[01:23:58] Dr. Melissa: Like why foreplay?

[01:23:59] Dr. Nicole: Please do it.

[01:23:59] Dr. Melissa: Stop using that word.

[01:24:00] Dr. Nicole: Please do it. I get a lot of people who like pitch themselves to come onto the podcast and so I'll do some vetting and if I see them use the word foreplay and I'm like, Nope.

This is not right by you. You're

[01:24:10] Dr. Melissa: This is not right.

[01:24:11] Dr. Nicole: nope nope nope

[01:24:11] Dr. Melissa: is not right. Stop using that word. It's homophobic. Like I'm not even trying to be's funny. It's It's homophobic.

[01:24:17] Dr. Nicole: Yes, it's homophobic. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So on my website, I have it in like quotes and then like penetration, right? And so if we are talking about removing the relationship escalator, removing the intimacy escalator, we step into this wide open prairie right of opportunity.

Or what I like to say is a blank white canvas. We had the paint by numbers. And now there's the blank white canvas, which often when you're an artist, that can be really overwhelming.

[01:24:43] Dr. Melissa: Yeah.

[01:24:44] Dr. Nicole: What am I putting on this page? What am I doing? Yeah. We become overwhelmed by the freedom of it all right? The opportunity, the choice, right?

And so yeah, that work cognitively to rather be than being afraid of the blank white page to really. See that as an opportunity to create your own life. And so that is a muscle, like you said, with the, the brain and myelination, right? The pathways that we think get more and more myelinated, which means they go faster, faster, faster.

Mm-hmm. And so we can walk that path. I use the metaphor of even like if you're going through like, um, a lot of weed areas and you're trying to create a path, it's really uncomfortable at first, but once someone has made that path, then it's easier to go. So, dear listener, you have to think about your brain in that same way.

The more you think that path, it's myelinated, the electricity goes faster, and your brain thinks that so much faster. And so if you're trying to build a new path and it's a blank white canvas, that is really, really overwhelming. But the more

[01:25:40] Dr. Melissa: I think it's

[01:25:41] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm. Go ahead.

[01:25:42] Dr. Melissa: I was gonna say, nope.

[01:25:45] Dr. Nicole: But the more, yeah, I love the passion.

The more we start lifting that muscle and starting to paint and paint and paint, you're gonna build that muscle and that pathway and that freedom will start to feel like your natural state of being and you will become so much more open to it. And the you have to start somewhere, right? Every artist starts somewhere and you practice and all is coming.

You keep practicing and practicing and practicing and the masterpiece you will have by the end of your life is delicious.

[01:26:13] Dr. Melissa: Yes. And I think that's why, you know, when people will talk about, I don't know if I'll like queer sex.

[01:26:20] Dr. Nicole: Hmm.

[01:26:21] Dr. Melissa: I don't know. I don't know how to date, like in a queer context. I don't, you know, all of this.

I don't know how, you know, and I think that holds people back.

[01:26:32] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:26:32] Dr. Melissa: And instead, it's just like so many things that are hard, but so worth it in life you have to create. Your own way of doing it. Even when we're talking about like undoing some of our maladaptive patterns, we're doing the same thing. It's like I this path from like, I don't like this conversation so I'm gonna shut it down.

That I'm like used to doing. If I wanna learn to be a better listener, you know, or be more vulnerable or be less conflict avoidant, I have to try really hard

[01:27:00] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[01:27:00] Dr. Melissa: To do that. And I feel like it's similar when we're talking about, yeah, just have fun, go out there and have fun. Stop thinking so much about what feels easier.

But I think that that,

[01:27:10] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[01:27:11] Dr. Melissa: People will often say to me too, if, or if I present the idea that could, is it possible. That your experience, your somatic experience of being attracted to cis men and your attraction to other genders could show up differently in your body.

[01:27:24] Dr. Nicole: Oh

[01:27:24] Dr. Melissa: yeah. And that's why you think you're not actually attracted to other genders?

Mm,

[01:27:28] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[01:27:28] Dr. Melissa: Do you know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. Yes. Like, I feel like people will have that experience. I must not really be attracted to women because I don't have an instant sexual connection with women. Is it possible that that's just how your attraction to women.

[01:27:40] Dr. Nicole: Totally. Totally.

[01:27:41] Dr. Melissa: It's just different.

[01:27:42] Dr. Nicole: Totally. And I'm sure you know this. And so for the listener, there have been research on, on women and people with vulvas where they will provide some sort of sexual erotic stimulus and have the person rate whether they were turned on or not, and also had a probe inside the vaginal canal to notice any sort of shifts.

And there was often a disconnect where people would say, oh, I didn't feel anything, but there actually was an experience happening in the body. Right. And so there's even deeper questions there of are you connected enough to your body to even notice?

[01:28:14] Dr. Melissa: I 100%.

[01:28:15] Dr. Nicole: Oh.

[01:28:16] Dr. Melissa: That is a whole other like fascinating conversation that like about gendered attraction and how yeah, it can feel different in your body.

And how do you, how do you tune, tune into that? Mm-hmm. So that you're not kind of self-sabotaging your queer experiences.

[01:28:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And I think there are definitely queer experiences that we can have with Cismen. I'm thinking about my most recent experience where I was at a play party and having like.

Me standing, having both of my male partners like literally go down like on their knees to give oral to me and tag teaming that out. And there was also an experience of like, there was, we were taking different substances and that re resulted in like softer Cox, which is also a beautiful thing. Thank you.

Let's say that out loud. And I, so it felt very queer to have this sexual experience with soft cocks and two like cis men, right? And like be practicing all of it. Like I find that queer to find sexual play in that, even though, you know, my partners don't identify in that way. One of them does, but the other does not.

And even though that's like, not all the, the conjoining identity factor, the actual sex that we're having with soft penises and other sorts of ways of accessing pleasure is so, so queer. I, I see that there. It,

[01:29:33] Dr. Melissa: I struggle with calling. Sex queer. That is not with queer bodies, however, or like in a, in a very sp if the world wouldn't see it as queer, I struggle with that.

However, I do think that there is this conversation that is important about queer as an identity and queer as a verb. Mm-hmm. And I want that to present, think that we can queer actively as in, um, challenge. I think when we are challenging cis, hetero, patriarchal.

[01:30:03] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:30:04] Dr. Melissa: Um, uh, values, systems, whatever. Yeah.

When we are challenging that, including in our quote unquote straight relationships, like if you're a cis man and a cis woman, I personally see that relationship as straight because that's how the world sees it. Um, and I think that's important to acknowledge that privilege. But like you're saying. It, it, it is challenging cis heteropatriarchy to have all of the things that you're talking about.

Mm-hmm. So it is still queering the sexual experience, right. Like, it is, it is not following Right. The, um, the script, the cis hetero patriarchal script that exists. Mm-hmm. And, and I think people don't realize that, like, even challenging gender roles in your relationship.

[01:30:45] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:30:45] Dr. Melissa: And you know, your straight passing, however you wanna think of that relationship is.

A queer act. Mm-hmm. And, uh, you know, as a, a, I think queer is like an academic term of like

[01:30:57] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:30:57] Dr. Melissa: Something that is outside of the norm.

[01:31:00] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Right.

[01:31:00] Dr. Melissa: And I think that that's really like powerful and important for people to have that experience. Right. You can queer your straight sex. Yeah. You can like have, uh, you know, how do we do this outside of how many people are in relationships where they're not even talking about the sex that they wanna have, they're just following that script.

Right. Inherently being like, let's take this domino out. We're actually not gonna do step three, you know, or we're not

[01:31:24] Dr. Nicole: gonna

right

[01:31:24] Dr. Melissa: talk about this as for play. Like, you

[01:31:26] Dr. Nicole: right

[01:31:27] Dr. Melissa: like, this is just part of sex. Or guess what, nobody has to orgasm for sex to be good.

[01:31:33] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:31:33] Dr. Melissa: You know? Mm-hmm. Those are all challenging, a cis hetero, patriarchal understanding of sex.

And I think that those things can be a very intentional queering. Right. Of what's going on.

[01:31:44] Dr. Nicole: Totally. Absolutely. I love that as a verb. I think that's a very important way to look at it. Yeah. And 'cause like in that experience for me, like I'm definitely queer in all of the ways that I understand that word to be.

And then my other partner is, uh, gender fluid queer. And then I have a cis hetero like, and so even in that dynamic of the three of us, to define it as not queer, I think would be centering the one. Cshe partner in that. Right. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like I, I'm not about to define that as straight, you know, even, you know, 'cause I'm like, there's too, no.

Like, that'd be centering that lens of it all. And so whether, and it's like, who, what, what are even these boxes and labels? And so I appreciate that frame of bringing it into the verb of so much more so of like, what does it mean to, to really dismantle these scripts and not get so lost. Mm-hmm. I think that's often something our communities can do is like, what's the box?

What's the box? What's the box? And it's like, mm-hmm. Let's just come into this fluid, more space of the actual actions and the verbs of it. So I really appreciate that.

[01:32:41] Dr. Melissa: But yeah, what is the intention behind what we're doing and how we're doing it, I think is something that we can challenge and, and that we often don't.

Yeah. And it's definitely worth doing that.

[01:32:52] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's very clear that I could talk to you for hours and hours about all of this, so you'll have to come back on the podcast in some day. Yeah, I'm doing cycles, so now I've started to go back to some of the people from the beginning who came on five years ago, so we'll maybe check in again.

Yeah, that's so funny.

[01:33:09] Dr. Melissa: I see you in five years.

[01:33:10] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. See you in five years. See where you're at. Uh, hopefully even more and more empowered. Right. Um, and so before we come to the end of our time here, I'm gonna take a deep breath with you

and I'll check in and see if there's anything else that you wanna share with the listeners. Otherwise, I have a closing question for us.

[01:33:35] Dr. Melissa: I have 4,000 things that would, I know would like to share and so therefore I'm going to say no.

[01:33:42] Dr. Nicole: I love that

[01:33:42] Dr. Melissa: you go on a stay tuned, real tangent. Yeah, exactly. Stay tuned.

[01:33:47] Dr. Nicole: Alright, well then the last question that I have for you is a question that I ask everyone on the show, and that is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:34:00] Dr. Melissa: What is one thing I wish people knew was more normal? Oh my God. Everything. I wish I know, right? I wish, I wish that we stopped using the word normal.

I wish that we saw things, and this is not a criticism of the question, just in, uh, like in general. I just wish that we could see things as normative. Like they, this is when people tend to have sex for the first time. That is normative. It doesn't mean it's normal because then that means that you're abnormal if that's not the experience that you have.

So I feel like any. Sexual journey that you're on, whatever your experience is, you're not the only person with that experience. Yeah. When we're talking about sexuality, there actually is no normal. Mm-hmm. There is a lot of normative

[01:34:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:34:49] Dr. Melissa: Ways that people do things, but I would say, I would say whatever your sexual journey experience, your fantasies, your desires, your boundaries, that it's normal.

Whatever you're doing is normal, I promise.

[01:35:04] Dr. Nicole: Mm mm-hmm. Yeah. You passed the secret test. I, I didn't start this as a test, but I will say that over the five years of doing this podcast, um. Every anarchist that comes on, they always do that. They're like, no, really?

[01:35:25] Dr. Melissa: That's so funny.

[01:35:26] Dr. Nicole: Yes. That's why I'm like, it's become a secret test where it's like, ooh.

They de they deconstructed normal. Like, you're an anarchist. Cheers the trophy.

[01:35:34] Dr. Melissa: Yes. Like they can't even answer the question.

[01:35:36] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And of course there are anarchists who answer the question Yes. In the line of the show. So thank you also to them. But it's just funny. It's been this like ongoing joke.

I'm like, oh, you passed. Um, so yes, absolutely. When you're doing things that are consensual and, and autonomous and choosing to do that all together, like all that full, full, full range, the human existence is normal. And what a beautiful thing to have so much creativity. Right? Our creativity isn't just in our art, our spiritual practices, it's also in our sex, which I find to be art and spiritual.

Right? Um, but it's, it's all there. And so I think you did such a beautiful job of, of really. Laying out the context of the world that we're living in and how that impacts us and these opportunities for us to keep growing and and expanding. And something I keep coming again, again too, is like. What part of us thinks that this work is gonna be easy?

What? Like who are we to think that dismantling systems should be easy. It's gonna, it's really hard. Hard. Yeah. And also trusting the immense pleasure that is on the other side that I know you can speak to and that I can speak to. When you go through those mo moments of stretching your consciousness and breaking down who you previously thought you were to step into more radical, empowered, pleasure filled aspects of your life, and then like, ugh.

Mm-hmm. It's difficult, but so, so worth that. Like birth of the self, truly.

[01:37:00] Dr. Melissa: Yeah. Absolutely. It's worth it. Yeah.

[01:37:04] Dr. Nicole: Such a joy to have you on the podcast, Jay. Wow,

[01:37:07] Dr. Melissa: thank you. Oh my gosh, thank you. So thank you so much.

[01:37:09] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah.

[01:37:10] Dr. Melissa: It's always good to talk to people who just like understand what you're saying.

[01:37:13] Dr. Nicole: Right?

Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm sure all of the listeners are wondering how they can connect with you, where they can find your content, where should they find you?

[01:37:24] Dr. Melissa: Um, the easiest place to go is my website, which is melissa fao.com. From there, there's links to my Instagram. There's links to signing up for my newsletter.

There's information on working with me as a coach. It's all there. So I feel like that's the easiest place. Just go to melissa fao.com. Perfect.

[01:37:41] Dr. Nicole: Perfect. And dear listener, I'll have all of that linked in the show notes below, so you can just go to the show notes and go find the link and find more Melissa there.

So thank you, Melissa, for coming on the show.

[01:37:52] Dr. Melissa: Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah.

[01:37:55] Dr. Nicole: Dear listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Modern Anarchy. Thank you for sharing this episode with your. Friends with your lovers, with your community. Truly, it means so much to me, and I am so grateful that you are here.

If you are wanting to release jealousy in your nonmonogamous dynamics and step into a compersion and pleasure filled connection, you can read my book, the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide for free on my website. There you'll also find so many other free resources, including worksheets on how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non-monogamous dynamics and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure filled sex and relationships.

So head on over to modern Anarchy podcast.com. To find all of those free resources, and I look forward to seeing you next week.