253. Chill Polyamory and Intentional Community Building with Genevieve

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole Try, but she's screaming inside. Try.

On today's episode, we have Genevieve join us for a conversation about transformational interdependence. Together we talk about taking a break from edging your reality, learning how to swim in non-monogamy, and the nuance of hierarchy. Hello, dear listener, and. Welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday.

My name is Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, author of the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and founder of The Pleasure Practice, where I support individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships. Dear listener, this episode is so special, Genevieve, and I share so much similarities in the craving to edge reality, and I'm sure you do too, dear listener, because I know so many of you, the listeners who have been listening to the podcast for the last five years, like, Hey.

I love you. Thank you. Thank you for joining this wild, wild journey. And so for all of you that have been here for that ride, gosh, it was like a full year of the podcast that we talked about, spiritual trauma and healing from that, and the control of all of that, because that's where I came from with purity culture.

And we talk about coming from cultish religions today. And when you get out of that, yeah, there's such a craving to keep edging your reality, edging your reality, because you already got out of something that was painful and difficult, right? So it's like, well, what else am I not seeing? You know, that held me back for so many years, or restricted me and hurt me in these ways.

And so there's always that craving for like, what's the next expansion? What's the next level that I'm getting to in terms of my consciousness? Yeah, it's somewhere to take a break from that, right? Just really celebrate, dear listener, Hey, you're in this space, and you know what that means? You're a pleasure activist.

You've unpacked some stuff. If you're listening to this content, you're comfortable with things that so many people in our culture shy away from, are turned off from, or scared to even have just a frank conversation about. So yes, let's keep edging our reality. 'cause of course there's always more systems to go.

But also, dear listener, can you see how far you've come? Can you see how far you've changed? How much transformation has occurred in your life? And. Yeah, Genevieve and I talk about the pleasure of getting to share those nuggets of wisdom with you, with others in our community, and I really, really hope you take away some valuable insight about what it means to build community and to get deeper into these concepts of hierarchy here.

And again, it's such a joy to be connecting with different leaders and activists and healers in different areas of the world, like Genevieve, and to come together and create this powerful content with you. So thank you for tuning in, dear listener.

Alright. Dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and free resources@modernanarchypodcast.com, linked in the show notes below. And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters. You are supporting the long-term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible to all people.

So thank you. And with that dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode. So,

dear listener, there's a space already waiting for you where you are invited to let go of every old script about Sack. And relationships and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure, empowerment, and deep alignment. I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real trans. Formation possible, and I'll be right there with you, guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure and visit modern anarchy podcast.com/pleasure practice to apply.

And so the first question I like to ask each guest is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:05:49] Genevieve: Sure. I'm Genevieve, I'm online as Chill Polyamory. Um, a name that was chosen because I was like, polyamory can be boring. You guys, it can be pretty relaxed. Like it can be a goal to be kind of normy a little bit.

Mm-hmm. Not normy maybe, but, but yeah. It's, um, I'm polyamorous and non-monogamous for 13 years.

[00:06:09] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:06:10] Genevieve: And I educate, I do entertainment, um, short and long form. I'm doing a YouTube series on non-monogamy and media. So we can look at fictional examples, so that way if I'm tearing 'em apart, I'm not destroying real people.

Right, right, right. Um, and, and I also, um, am in developing an anthology of non-monogamous examples called, uh, I could Never, it's a podcast. It's a story time series. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, just talking about non-monogamy, especially from like a leftist and relationship anarchist point of view. So,

[00:06:46] Dr. Nicole: well, you're in the right place.

Welcome, welcome. Such a joy to have you on the podcast today.

[00:06:52] Genevieve: Thanks for having me.

[00:06:52] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. So I'm curious if you could start us off with your personal journey to this space. So when you're first hearing about these concepts, where are you, what are you thinking about it? When you first hear it, tell me the story here.

[00:07:08] Genevieve: Yeah. I was single when I found the word polyamory. Um, I had always felt kind of nihilistic, a little bit about monogamy of just like, well, either I get with someone safe and I cheat on them. Like, not that I had cheated, but I just thought, I can't do that forever.

[00:07:26] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:07:26] Genevieve: Or I get with somebody and they cheat on me.

It was like I, and I grew up seeing each of my parents get married and divorced three times each.

[00:07:33] Dr. Nicole: Wow.

[00:07:34] Genevieve: So I also had modeled for me that like long-term monogamy, I didn't see that. Right. Um, not that it can't happen, but um. Yeah. So I was single after a three year long attempt at monogamy, and I broke up because I had an attraction to a friend and I still loved my partner, but that was a deal breaker.

[00:07:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:07:54] Genevieve: And so then someone, uh, I, I started getting a crush on someone who was like, oh, I'm in this. I'm polyamorous and I'm in this community and come meet my friends. And I was like, oh my God, there's a word for it. Oh my God, there's a word for it. Oh my God. Like, it was like everything had opened up and I felt optimistic again and.

So, but you know, not to say that it's not scary, right? I think it was similar to when I realized I, it was okay for me to be queer, but then dating started to be very scary, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, so that's very similar to how polyamorous exploration in practice was. And I was very, this was 13 years ago. I had not done as much therapy as I needed to do.

I was, I, I responded to being scared by just like, trying to get a strangle grip on situations. Like if I put everything in a box, if I have a label for everything, like I wanted control.

[00:08:50] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:08:51] Genevieve: Um, and I, like, I have a warmth and an empathy for that part of myself. And I do think it would've been nicer to everyone involved to do a little more work before I jumped in the deep end.

Um, but yeah, we learned the hard way. Like I, I started dating that friend who introduced me to the community.

[00:09:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:09] Genevieve: And I was like, I want, I want this to be like you and me, and then everyone else is extra. Like it was coming from a very terrified place.

[00:09:18] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:09:18] Genevieve: Context as well is that at the time my dad was dying and so I was like.

Also facing this grief. And I was like, I'm bonding with you. I don't want more grief or loss. And that's not to excuse that I was, I was gr grappling with like, something out of, um, without it being self examined. I was searching for something, insisting upon something when really I could have been looking inward at why do I want this?

But yeah, so at the time he, he was like, yep, that sounds good to me. You know, we'll build a life together. And then in practice we just started hurting people's feelings. Mm. You know, like that's ultimately where that ethos leads is. Like, why welcome people in if they're gonna feel like a. Like they matter less or like a second class citizen a little bit.

Mm-hmm. You know, and that wasn't how I framed it in my mind.

[00:10:09] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:10:10] Genevieve: But it was, um, what it made people feel. And so we were just getting feedback from people of like, Hey, this sucks. Or why is this rule in place? Like, why can't I sleep on your boyfriend's bed? You're not here. You know, like these rules and all that that can come with that.

And so one by one it just started like people were pulling at the threads of why, why, why do you need this? Why do you want this? Why is this what you think safety is? You know, and luckily I was getting a mentor around that time, this sort of big sister type in a polyamorous community that was, she wanted or she had what I wanted.

And I started hanging out with her and then one of her boyfriends was like, Hey, who are you? And started spending time with me and uh, I was like, oh my goodness, I think I might be falling in love a second time.

[00:10:59] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:11:00] Genevieve: And that's really when it got confronted. I was like, oh, I can't do this. One person is on top of everyone else's second.

Like, that's not apparently how I even love.

[00:11:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:11:10] Genevieve: I was choosing that to have this sense of control, but I actually don't want that either. Um. So that partner pushed back on things with sort of like a, I am not gonna do this if this is, if these are your agreements, if this is your rules with that partner, I'm not gonna do this.

Yeah. And so that was a firmer, you know, um, challenge that I was willing to do. And so I was dating both of them for a while. It was, it was rocky with that first partner to, you know, it always kind of is of like, will I still be okay if I don't have this status?

[00:11:44] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:11:45] Genevieve: But that partner and I wound up breaking up because he kept cheating on me.

So that was gonna end anyway. Like I, you know, yeah. You saying I'm number one, you keep breaking my heart. What, what's even, what even is this, right? Yeah.

[00:11:57] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah. I see.

[00:11:58] Genevieve: It just goes to show you, like, you, you can get, you could get the ring and the title and the home and the, you know, 2.5 kids or whatever, and still not be safe if you can't trust the damn person.

Right.

[00:12:10] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:12:10] Genevieve: So, so yeah. Um, I think that also revealed how like. My desire for that sort of primacy and love was also because on some level, I didn't trust my partner because the second partner that I fell in love with, who I'm still with today, 11 years later, um, I didn't need that with him. Mm-hmm. Like, I didn't have that desire.

I was like, oh, I trust you.

[00:12:37] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:12:37] Genevieve: I don't think you're lying to me. I don't feel the need to force anything or impose anything or, so That's good to know. Apparently, yes. You know, trust is coming from, you know, safety is coming from trust in words and actions, not in like a, a sort of label or limiting what other people are allowed to do.

[00:12:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:58] Genevieve: Um, so yeah. So. I have been, you know, dating and in like gradually from 11 years ago to today has just been increasingly year over year more radicalized,

[00:13:12] Dr. Nicole: resonate with that

[00:13:13] Genevieve: until, yeah, until like, you know, five, four or five years ago I landed with relationship anarchy, feeling like it resonated a lot and going deeper into that and even then still shedding the layers of how does practice conflict with theory and

[00:13:29] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:13:30] Genevieve: Um, so yeah. So during that 11 years, just meeting so many beautiful people and I feel like I don't, I rarely lose people from my life. They just might change shape. Of course. Yeah. So, yeah, I have a lot of people I would consider long distance comets or spicy friendships that I've had for 20 years, you know, before I found polyamory and now I'm like, Hey, this, do you wanna hook up sometimes whenever we're in the same city?

And like, is that cool with you? And. Um, so that's been really nice to feel pretty, uh, limitless and free in how I express care. Um, and at the moment I have two partners. One is that partner that I mentioned earlier. I can say his name, ISIC. Mm. Um, because he's public now, he co-hosts the podcast with me. Oh, beautiful.

Um, and I have another partner who I just met a few months ago, but we, it's already like, oh, I've only felt this kind of love like four times in my life. Sure. Like this is specific.

[00:14:30] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:14:30] Genevieve: Um, and that's been a really easy process, uh, which is such a relief. So coming back to how polyamory can be chill, like it's not that there wasn't tumult, it's not that there wasn't a lot of having to confront yourself, um, but doing a lot of that heavy lifting now.

If a person happens to me, for the most part, it's pretty easy. We're even having easy conflict, you know? Mm-hmm. And, um, so that's been feeling really good. Um, I went to Ireland and I met his partner, um, and we all played together and it, so it's feeling really open and flowy and, um, so, and I'm going on a date next week 'cause a cute girl from Brazil was like, can I take you to this party?

And I was like, absolutely. I'm saying this to this. Oh my goodness. Yeah. So it just feels like now you've caught me in a season of opening up to a lot of people. Um, not that I was closed before, but you know, I think when it rains it pours. Sure. Um, so yeah. And I tend to, um, give a lot of energy to my creative projects, so it's only if I feel like a connection is.

Yeah. Um, yeah, something that I feel I wanna do. I'm not like out looking, but if a connection finds me, yes, please.

[00:15:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:15:48] Genevieve: Um, and continuing to invest deeper into all of my relationships, you know, not having romantic connections be the central point. Yeah. A lot of my longer term life decisions would be like made alongside people who are more interdependent, which would be.

You know, at the moment is currently romantic partners. Mm-hmm. But I have friendships that predate them. I have friendships that are like so dear to me, and I do not cancel my friend dates for anything unless the house is on fire. And, and so considering them as part of, um, my, my priority as well has helped keep things feeling balanced and stable and has really made a feeling of community that I didn't, I didn't come across organically, had to be built, you know?

Mm-hmm. Um, so that's how I would sum up where I'm at and where I come from.

[00:16:41] Dr. Nicole: Beautiful. What an amazing space to be in, and I feel like we could unpack all of that truly over multiple episodes. You hit on so many key things, and so I'd love to go deeper with you on some of these pieces. Even starting from the beginning of wanting control.

What a human experience, right? Oh my God. Mm-hmm. Truly is like, where's control? Where's control? And not just even in our romantic sexual relationships, platonic relationships, but all areas of life. Mm-hmm. It's something that we feel like if we can pin it. Right down here in this box, we'll find stability.

Mm-hmm. And I feel like one of the biggest things I'm always processing is how change is the only constant.

[00:17:23] Genevieve: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:24] Dr. Nicole: And I think that's a deeper and deeper process. Right. Of acknowledging that. And there's also a lot of grief in that. For me, the deeper I go in that, right. It means that these moments of joy are also fleeting.

Right. You get so excited. This feels so good, this relationship. And I ideally we, we want that joy to keep going, but the reality is that's not promised. Right. Yeah. And so there's a lot of grief as you feel that, but also I feel like paired with that grief is a lot of savoring of the present moment where you're like, right, this is, this is it right here, and I'm gonna be right here in it.

And I'll get to that other thing down the line. Down the stream when I get there. Right. But I think a lot of us. Based on the narratives we've been given. Yeah. We find security and control in this is this partner with this label, these are these things we can do with each other and you can't do it with other people.

And yet we know the stats on infidelity, relatively, the research isn't too great. No one wants to admit like, yeah, I totally cheated on my partner. Right. That's very hard to find people who wanna self-report that, as well as the complexity of what is cheating. Right. We can get into the emotional infidelity, which is something I have a lot of problems with as a concept, to be very clear.

Mm-hmm. But depending on how you define that for folks, it's so unclear. But we do know that it's somewhere between like 50, somewhere between even 70%. I've heard quotes before of monogamous relationships, experience infidelity, right? Mm-hmm. And so even if we put that somewhere around half,

[00:18:56] Genevieve: mm-hmm.

[00:18:57] Dr. Nicole: You know, if someone told me, Hey, you're gonna get on this plane and there's a 50% chance it's gonna crash, right?

I would not be going on that plane. I just wanna be very clear. Yeah. I'd be looking at that and going, that's not a safe plan.

[00:19:10] Genevieve: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:11] Dr. Nicole: Um, even if I wanted sexual fidelity, I'd be doing a lot of work to have some really direct conversations and I think that's why I appreciate the frame of relationship anarchy.

'cause you don't have to have multiple sexual partners. You don't have to have. Any sexual partners, right? Mm-hmm. And you can still be under this frame. And so I really appreciate that lens of the intimacy of each relationship. How can we construct these relationships in mutual ways of ongoing consent, right?

Mm-hmm. All of those pieces. And so I find that framed be something that's applicable to all people regardless of what, you know, the amount of people you're having sex with. It's truly not about that. And, um, for context, for myself and, and the conversation as we go in deeper, I did not come from the frame where you did of joy when my first partners, you know, told me about this.

I came from a very Christian background.

[00:20:03] Genevieve: Mm.

[00:20:04] Dr. Nicole: I always joke about the pain of how. At the time, one of my partners in my monogamous relationship wanted to get coffee with a friend from college that was a woman. And I was in a very heterosexual frame, had not yet unpacked my queerness, all of that joy. Um, but I freaked out.

Mm-hmm. You're gonna get coffee with a woman. Mm-hmm. And it comes back from my paradigms of purity culture of men and women cannot be in the same space without it being problematic and dangerous and full of sexual sin. Um, and so I bring a lot of that lens into this work. Right. And so. When I think about these things, I think about the starting points we come from.

Right. I'm curious for you, what was the, like sexual paradigms that you came from, your sex education, how did that kind of lay the land where this felt much more open, I think, than what I experienced?

[00:20:57] Genevieve: Well, yes and no. I came from purity culture too, for sure.

[00:21:00] Dr. Nicole: Okay.

[00:21:01] Genevieve: Um, yeah. To, to not make the, the episode totally about something else.

But I left, um, home when I was 15 because it was a very, uh, abusive household and I was even supported by my parents to leave and get help with disordered eating. Okay. Speaking of wanting control, right? Sure. Yeah. Um, and. It was this community of about 200 people that I have since understood. Is a cult.

Was a cult. It disbanded after the leader died in like oh seven. So when I was from 15 to 21, I was in this high control group. Wow. Of people that you, the whole narrative around sex and lust was that it is, um, they didn't use religious language, but they used 12 step language. Like it's an addiction or it could easily become an addiction.

If you, if you wanna touch yourself, you know what's going on with you, they would pathologize it. What's going on with you, wrong with you? That you would want that? Let's unpack that in therapy. That you found somebody hot. Right? Like, and that fucked with me because I'd not yet been sexual. Um. And they, the minute that I started wanting to watch porn or I had a crush on somebody, they're like, you need to go to Sexaholics Anonymous.

Oh gosh. Preventatively. So from 16 to 21 as a virgin, I was at Sexaholics Anonymous. No, just Yeah. Here every week hearing how sex ruined people's lives. Yeah. Sex and love. And so I was terrified. I was terrified, but I was a horny teenager. Right. Yeah. And like reconciling that was really tough. Um, and actually I think I was in touch with my queerness long before I sort of assimilated.

'cause I am bisexual. I like, I was like, okay, it's okay for them, uh, for everybody if I date a dude. Mm-hmm. But the first person that I started like kissing and spending time with was a girl. Uh, when I was like. 13, 14.

[00:23:07] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:08] Genevieve: And that got completely shut down. No space to e explore that. Men over here, women over there at this community.

So I had like a glimpse, you know, of a cute, fledgling little love, um, and then just shoved it right back down.

[00:23:22] Dr. Nicole: Oof.

[00:23:22] Genevieve: Um, oof for a time. But I, I was happy to have that because I could remember it and be like, wait, wait, wait. This was me before them. Um, good. Yeah. So, but yeah, so there was a lot of fear of sex, but when I went to college, I saw people just like going and fucking in the bathroom.

Yeah. Like going, that's, and I was like, but they're fine. They're, they're fine. They're not, you know? Yeah.

[00:23:47] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:23:47] Genevieve: They're not falling apart. Like, that was what the community leaders would always say is like, if you break these, um, you know, ways of life, you're gonna be dead in the gutter like that. You, you're, and I was like, so they.

Went and they had sex in the bathroom real quick. Went to class. They're not dead in the gutter. Like everything that you're saying is so wrong.

[00:24:06] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:24:07] Genevieve: What the fuck? You know? Yeah. And, um, so that's why I left that community is 'cause I wanted to have sex. And they were like, Nope, that's, that. There was a way, a right way to do things, which I'm sure you experienced, right?

Yeah. It was like they, they were like, you have to, um, talk with them in group. They have to be an approved person, then go on a chaperone date with your, you know, mentors and then you can hold hands after a few months. And I was like, fuck all that. I wanna know what sex feels like. I'm 21 years old. This is weird.

Yeah,

[00:24:38] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[00:24:39] Genevieve: Um, so yeah. So, but that then, like, I lost my whole community too

[00:24:45] Dr. Nicole: rough. Yep.

[00:24:47] Genevieve: That was a few years prior to my dad getting sick. Mm-hmm. And so I had lost like 200 people.

[00:24:53] Dr. Nicole: Wow.

[00:24:54] Genevieve: Sort of rebuilding. I was like, I only had my blood family. And I was like, they let me live with them and I was just trying to get, and they were again, I left their home when I was 15.

There was a reason. So it was like, not the best, but they were a landing pad and they wanted me to be out of that community. Um, but I was starting from scratch. The only friends I had were like acquaintances in college. And then I started to fall in love as my dad was dying. And I was like, this love needs to not go anywhere, right?

Be everything. I was strangle grip, please, you know, I need to have security in my life. And it's because I felt. So unstable internally. Yes. So I was like, I needed external stability or illusion of stability. 'cause again, I was being cheated on. So, um, yeah. So I, I think I didn't find kink until I had a lot of healing around that cult.

Um, and I didn't actually start digesting that until like 2016. I left in 2007.

[00:25:51] Dr. Nicole: Okay.

[00:25:51] Genevieve: So it took the better part of a decade to like, feel like, okay, I'll, I'll look at this. I'll accept the C word, like I'll, you know.

[00:26:00] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:26:00] Genevieve: And, um. And then, yeah, untangling that. Like I actually liked the idea of being told what to do.

I felt relief at that and maybe that actually played a role in why I liked the community, but they abused that in a very rigid, you know, power imbalance system. Like in a kink context. If I say I don't wanna make decisions tonight, and I get told what to do all night, well that's relieving. Yeah. Wait, so I can still get that.

I can still get that fed and watered in a way that's not. Abusive or controlling. And so, mm-hmm. Um, I really started entering kink in a non sexualized kind of way. Um, yeah, it depends on how you define sexualized, but yeah, sure. Yeah. I was, I was being like, bound with rope, but like cloth and then told what I was gonna eat and where I was gonna sit and, you know.

Mm-hmm. And so it was very, um, it was very nourishing in that way.

[00:26:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:59] Genevieve: Yeah. And I think just like with each new experience being a feeling of freedom, and even if I hated it, I don't ever have to do it again. And like it was just, and I didn't die and I'm not in the gutter. Yeah. Like, so I think the extremity, the extremity of, uh, an upbringing like you were describing, like I had.

Is that it's never that dire, like sex can be fine, it can be regular, it can be boring, it can be mundane, it can be thrilling and deeply exciting. You know, it can have traumatic moments and so it can be whatever a relationship is and all of these consequences of fire and brimstone and, you know, mortality like, and your value as a human being.

You know, if you're feminized growing up, like yeah. That all of that in practice wasn't playing out. Mm-hmm. And it kept losing its power, the more exposure I had to something different. Yeah. So I'm very grateful for that, and I'm grateful for the sweet people who were like understanding and holding my hand through it and like not rushing me.

Right. And still aren't rushing me, you know? Yeah. I'm, I'm going deeper in exploring what kink would look like in a DS dynamic with my new partner. Mm-hmm. And we're going slow. We're building trust and we're going slow and it's really nice. So

[00:28:16] Dr. Nicole: I love that.

[00:28:16] Genevieve: Yeah. I, we probably, you and I probably have more overlap than might appear, you know, even though the, the, the, you know

[00:28:25] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:28:26] Genevieve: The curtains were different colors. Right. Like, I think at the core of it was like this control over sexuality. Mm-hmm. And this instilling fear in it that it loses its power once you're grown and you're like,

[00:28:38] Dr. Nicole: yeah,

[00:28:39] Genevieve: it's really not that bad you guys. It's kind of nice. Yeah,

[00:28:42] Dr. Nicole: absolutely. Absolutely. I feel like I wanna take the biggest deep breath for both of us of just like,

what a journey to get outta that free. Yeah, exactly right. So free. And, um, I still, like, you know, over the weekend I had this, uh, play party that I went to and I had this massive scene in this like orgy pit, and I still went to work the next day and I was like, hmm.

[00:29:10] Genevieve: Love that for you.

[00:29:11] Dr. Nicole: You know, you know, I'm like, I had this yesterday.

I'm here today. Yes. I'm respectable professional doctor. Yes. Hello. You know,

[00:29:18] Genevieve: Uhhuh

[00:29:19] Dr. Nicole: and I still think that were I to have children one day? That's a whole other Madonna who complex of like, can the mom also have the orgasm in the pip, you know, with all these people around her. Mm-hmm. And also go pick up the, the kid in the preschool line and be respectable.

[00:29:36] Genevieve: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:37] Dr. Nicole: We'll see when I get there. You know what I mean? Yeah. But I, I still feel like there's, there's gonna be a lifetime. Of deconstructing all of these things because probably as much as you understand every step you go deeper down the rabbit hole, you find more freedom and also a new edge, right? Of like, what is that thing that's still holding me back?

Why can't I make porn as a therapist? You know, what is the world, you know? Whoa. You know, there's so much there. And so I, I feel like I'll ask if you're like me in the terms of loving that, that edge of like, what's that next thing? And also needing to learn to celebrate where you're at because I feel like that's something that's common in people maybe like us who have come from a very control restrictive space.

There's been so much pushing.

[00:30:26] Genevieve: Hmm,

[00:30:27] Dr. Nicole: this isn't true anymore. Okay. What else isn't true? And so you have that like urge to keep pushing and pushing and pushing and pushing. And so I feel like that's something I've had to learn with myself of like, yeah, we can keep pushing. And also, what if we relax? What if we find some chill?

[00:30:43] Genevieve: What if you enjoyed this for a minute

[00:30:46] Dr. Nicole: instead of edging my reality every single day?

[00:30:50] Genevieve: Yeah, yeah. No, it's true. I, um, yeah, my therapist is, is implying, she's like, I'm not diagnosing you with anything. But she was like, you show some overlap with traits of OCD around like moral. Scrupulosity or religious scrupulosity of like an, almost like an obsession with being a good person.

Um, which means if I discover any, like flaw I am, I'm obsessed with it. Or if I think I've hurt someone, I'm, I've, I've lost my day, you know, trying to figure out how to fix it or, and I was talking with another friend who grew up in Mormonism. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And she, she also struggles with that kind of, um.

Yeah. Obsessive and compulsive approach to being a person who stumbles and makes mistakes like, and I was like, oh yeah. I guess that would track, like if we had from a very young age this fear that if you make a mistake, you might lose everything.

[00:31:50] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:31:50] Genevieve: Then this hyper vigilance, and so for sure, I, that's what I'm working on is hyper vigilance around, you know, just being a person.

And trying to let go of control of how I'm received. Mm-hmm. Um, being so public online, I'm like, I wanna act within my values and here I've made this thing that I think says what I wanted to say. And then it's misunderstood. Yeah. Like every time, every time, every time there will be people who are like, this moved me to tears and people who are like, I think you're the worst person I've ever seen.

Yes. And it's the same piece of media they're reacting to. Right. And I'm like, so it's impossible.

[00:32:27] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:32:27] Genevieve: Which I think, I think in that space, it has forced me to try and chill out on being so intensely focused on the next thing I have to fix about myself. Mm-hmm. Um. You know, of, of the things to struggle with.

I am glad it's like on, it airs on the side of self-improvement or self searching, right? Yes. Like, that's cool. But yeah, I, I can have friends periodically say, just for the love of God, enjoy this. Like you've said, all the things you've, you've prepared and planned. It's just nice. Please just enjoy this. And I'm getting better at letting go and enjoying it.

Mm-hmm. Um, which is funny 'cause Yeah, like in general, my interactions with my people are pretty relaxed. Like we move through conflict pretty quickly. Um, we're all pretty good with like nonviolent communication and we don't see it as an attack and all of that. And so I've even had like on a podcast episode, a conflict played out in real time.

I love that. And yes, and I was like, people might think this is planned because it sounds so much not like a conflict. We're just like pushing back on each other and then accepting, you know, and like. And that's cool. I love modeling that. Yes. Because that really is how a lot of my conflicts go. But internally, conflict with self is still quite, uh, you know, um, I speak to myself in a way that I would never speak to someone else.

Mm. And I'm working on that. So, yeah. I don't know if that answers your question about like, always searching, what's the next, you know, what's the next thing to overcome? Mm-hmm. Let's pace ourselves so we don't like wake up when we're 80 and be like, now I can enjoy it. Right. Exactly. I'm done. Now I can. No, we're living now.

Let's enjoy it now. Mm-hmm.

[00:34:12] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:34:13] Genevieve: So,

[00:34:14] Dr. Nicole: in honor of that, I'm curious, what's something that you're proud of for your journey?

[00:34:20] Genevieve: Ooh. In relationship professionally. Sure. Short,

[00:34:24] Dr. Nicole: sure. Whatever speaks to you first.

[00:34:27] Genevieve: Hmm. And what do I feel proud of? I am very proud of a lot of things. I'm very proud of myself.

Um,

[00:34:36] Dr. Nicole: hell yes.

[00:34:36] Genevieve: I think Oh, from what to choose. Mm-hmm. I, I am proud of, uh, actually stepping away from my family of origin, um, finally. Yeah. Uh, because I relied on them so much when I left the cult. Mm-hmm. That I got back into old cycles. And so real bad. So like two years ago I finally, after like a decade of a lot of stress and struggle and shaming and, you know, being called a whore by my own mother and all of that.

[00:35:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:09] Genevieve: I've heard that all that did not improve.

[00:35:12] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:35:12] Genevieve: Just got worse with time. Um, I finally was like, I just am gonna cut my abusers out of my life. Right. And I'm just gonna trust that chosen family and found family will continue to come and let go of people that are. Harming me consistently, you know, gave it my good college try, but like it's just bringing me down and not lifting them up.

And so yeah, so that was about two years ago and that was probably the hardest thing, was walking away from the last of my blood family. So I'm very proud of that because. All of this opened up, like really how I'm feeling right now. It's really been in the last two years that I had more creative energy.

I started my YouTube channel, started my podcast, da da da. Yes. I said, yes. I had all these ideas. I was like, let's, it's like all of this background processing is like some ram got freed up, right? Yes. And I just wasn't bracing for the next hurtful text from 'em. Absolutely. And so I'm really grateful for that.

And I'm just really grateful that I'm surrounded by people who are invested in autonomy. And so we have community again, and I'm building and stretching and deepening in that way. 'cause that was terrifying for a long time. I was like, I'll make friends, but none of them can know each other. 'cause I don't want the cult thing to happen again where they all gang up on me or where they all gossip about me.

So I would have these very like, compartmentalized friendships that were deep, but I was scared for them to have relationship with each other.

[00:36:36] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:36:37] Genevieve: And it's not like I stopped them, it's just it I, they would be in different countries or something, you know? Mm-hmm. Um. So I'm pushing past that in the last two years and really being like, okay, let's open up, let's have community take what is nice about having a lot of varied relationships and let go of the centralized power, let go of the authoritarian overtones, uh, let go of anything about controlling people's bodies or decisions.

In fact, quite the opposite. We're all pretty committed to, you know, you are your own person and I'm not your keeper. Mm-hmm. Um, and that doesn't mean it's anything goes. Mm-hmm. We have agreements, we have relationship. Please love on me, you know? Right. And if you don't love on me, here's what I'm gonna do then, you know?

Right. Um, but it feels really beautiful to not completely stay in that overcorrection of hyper independence and to find my way back to community, but in a way that feels balanced and loving.

[00:37:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:37:37] Genevieve: So yeah,

[00:37:38] Dr. Nicole: absolutely. Interdependence. I love that word. Right. I use that word right. Uh, so much of us can go into a codependent space of needing one person to be able to walk, um, versus thinking that we need no one and we can be an island.

Mm-hmm. And what does it mean to find that in between space? To know that your own sovereignty and power and ability to hold yourself and to also know that that strength comes from your connection to other people and to community. Mm-hmm. And so it's that delicate dance in between the two and your journey with family is something I can certainly resonate with my family and Mormonism fun and yeah.

Fun.

[00:38:22] Genevieve: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:22] Dr. Nicole: And, uh, um, laugh says it all, and it's something that I know most queer people can resonate with. The reality that some of the most abusive dynamics are, are blood family. Mm-hmm. Who refused to. Sometimes even just accept, right? Refuse to even just accept the reality of who we are and what we do, let alone the space of outright attack and things that are unacceptable.

And so it's a really important piece of relationship anarchy for, I feel like my listeners know this, but if I can speak to my younger self, right? Relationship anarchy is not about sex. It's not about romance. It's actually about deconstructing the importance that that is in society, right? And so we can apply that to our family dynamics, right?

And looking with intentionality there. Um, and so when we think about those sorts of relationships, if they're hurting us in that way, we, we. Need to remove ourselves. It sounds like you gave your family multiple opportunities to be able to show up and grow and have some sort of transformative space for them, but to ultimately take that step back, I feel like that's one of those moments where you have to deconstruct the internalized power systems, which say family is everything and you're a bad person if you're not showing up there.

Right. And so it's another moment where you have to deconstruct the mainstream norm to write your own narrative. And of course, this is a very common thing with the queer community that we've all gone through. Many of us, I believe. Um, but it's still extremely challenging because especially in a field of clinical psychology, I hope you had a great therapist, but some therapists will come in and say, well, you're really messed up and broken.

How could you leave your family? Yeah. You're gonna have all these attachment issues. All this are gonna be permanently broken.

[00:40:15] Genevieve: Hmm. I can't imagine.

[00:40:18] Dr. Nicole: Oh, I've been there. You know, I've seen them, you know, in the field. I've seen them in the field. Who would say that walking away from that is, is like an attachment issue to want to have multiple relationships.

It's the fact that your parents didn't support you. That's why you want that. Right? And so, so fast, um, that diagnosis can come in there to really attack people and pathologies, people who go outside of the mainstream narrative.

[00:40:44] Genevieve: Mm-hmm. Yeah. The obligation approach to like, you know, um, I, uh, there was a point where like an indigenous, an indigenous friend of mine was saying like, why are white people so obsessed with, uh, blood quantum?

And I was like, right, right. Like this whole like blood family, like, oh, I'm point percent, you know, uh, Cherokee or something. Therefore I've proven it. And it's like, but. They don't accept you, you're not part of the community. You don't, you're not in relationship with them like you. So, so this sort of differing idea that a lot of these conversations have been with like Yeah.

People who just grew up very differently than me in a different, uh, understanding of family and a different understanding of community. Um, like a lot of my, like Black American friends grew up with like, people who you're, we're not related, but you're my cousin, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, and that being just exposed to that on the sidelines.

Yeah. Having that described to me, I was like, that feels so nice. Mm-hmm. And that was so foreign in my upbringing, in white suburbia in the US it's like. You know, blood and marriage. Yeah. Blood and marriage is family and everybody else can fuck off. You know, it's like we are looking out for number one and number one extends to this limited narrow group.

But like, and so I think I was still in that head space of like, obligation of like, because we're blood related, I need to sacrifice everything, drop what I'm doing, you know, take leave from work to go help you, give you all of my money. Like, I was very much like, you know, um, martyring myself Absolutely.

And participating in that kind of thing. And then just getting shit on shit, on shit, on, shit on. And I was like, but we're not in community. We're not like, I don't, I don't. I don't feel loved by you actively as a verb. I don't feel like this is, is nice to be in. I don't wanna be in this, you know? Um, yeah. So I'm not, you know, all or nothing, and I'm not advising anyone who's listening to like, do anything in particular.

But for me it was so freeing to realize like, oh, these people that have been in my life for 10 or 15 years, they're my fucking family. These people that will stop whatever they're doing and have my back and they are my safety net and vice versa. Like, they're my family. I don't know these people, you know, I, I really don't think they know me.

You know, they, they're still relating to me as an idea projected onto me, right? Of who that, who I was when I was five, or who they always wanted me to be or like, we're not actually in relationship. And so that, that was, I think part of what helped me get over was, was starting to. Realize that the idea of family didn't have to be what I was told.

It has to be. It's sometimes something I'll hear when it comes to, uh, polyamory. Sometimes people will say, well, who's gonna take care of you when you're old?

[00:43:42] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:42] Genevieve: Like, I wanna have a spouse and kids so that when I'm old, they'll take care of me. And I was like. Ooh. Well one that's optimistic. Right? Right.

'cause people go in no contact left and right. Right. So, but like, what a, it felt like such a cynical like place for the mind to go and I get it. If nothing else was ever modeled for you. Right. And you're thinking about security, so I don't fault people who can't yet imagine something they've never seen.

[00:44:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:10] Genevieve: Exactly. I was like, who's gonna take care of me when I'm older is like a dozen people. Yeah,

[00:44:14] Dr. Nicole: exactly. A whole community

[00:44:15] Genevieve: and their their kids. Right, right. Like, I don't wanna, I don't want to raise a baby from scratch. I'm still gonna participate in parenting because a lot of people I love have kids.

And so it was, yeah, I think the narrow, tight, controlled approach to love and relationship holistically had to be confronted and dropped. And doing it in one area really helped in doing it in others. Yeah,

[00:44:42] Dr. Nicole: absolutely. Absolutely. I feel like it's so important to look at the historical context of where that comes from, right?

We know historically that we were more nomadic and we moved in communities, right? And it wasn't until we developed farm and agriculture, specifically the plow, something to be able to plant crops is a huge piece of the history. That really shifted everything as a culture, because we could now be stationary.

We could now have. Property, we could now have something that we were going to pass down through our lineage. And so we want this very clear, you know, bloodline of, I'm gonna pass down this property to the people in my bloodline. And so we have this way of relating now where it becomes very insular of these are my people, rather than the community that we previously needed to be able to survive the seasons of just what it means to be on this earth.

Right? You couldn't just sit in your little, you know, nuclear family over there. You wouldn't survive. Right? You needed other adults and people. And so once we had this big shift in how we were able to obtain food and work in that way. We were able to start getting really specific about what we are passing down, and that's where we begin to see things like marriage and the passing down of property and the ways in which women specifically were property and men had that ability to go out and be free and have multiple sexual partners and then try to produce this like very clean bloodline, right?

That's why marital rape wasn't illegal in all 50 states until the 1990s. Nineties. Ah, let's be very clear. So that's only been 30 years, folks, right? And so like, okay, so we see that history as a culture, right? So right bloodline, not community, bloodline. I'm gonna give all my resources here, here, here. So yeah, the person who's like, who's gonna take care of me, right?

This is a product of capitalism and all of the years of that, of, of course, the only people who are gonna care for me are my bloodline because we're so broken up in rather than connected in community. Right. And so the, the joy of making content to some of my earlier episodes when I was wrestling with some of these ideas, that's something I specifically asked in an episode.

I remember with someone who was polyamorous and I was like, who's gonna buy my cough medicine? Who's gonna buy my cough medicine? You know, like exactly. It was that. I was like, I dunno, you know, no one was there for me. And that person kept telling me, you're gonna have multiple people. Yeah, you are actually gonna have multiple people who would do that.

One might be busy, the other might, you know, be busy, but you'll have someone. And I couldn't really trust in that. Mm-hmm. And it's something that, as you spoke to, it takes years to build these slow, intentional relationships. And then once you do, you feel like you can see it, as you said, you can't fault the person who's never had the example, 'cause they don't even know what's possible.

And so then you step into that space and start to feel that abundance and trust and you see other people's constriction and you're like, Hey, this okay. Like, it's gonna be okay. Just build some community, you know? Um, but that's not, certainly not an easy process. And, and I also think the reality is there's a very unique experience for queers when we do step away from our family, as you said.

Right. The freedom it creates in our lives, in our head space, because each relationship is internalized. Our, our mental health experience is formed by our relationships. And so that relationship sits in there and it has lots of chatter to say about who you are, and you have to create narratives of how to respond to that, how to work through that.

And so when you remove that, there's all this free space.

[00:48:19] Genevieve: Hmm.

[00:48:19] Dr. Nicole: And this reality that the more I've had to step back from my family because they're not able to meet me there for my own safety, that means I have a lot more free time to make other connections.

[00:48:33] Genevieve: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:34] Dr. Nicole: So that's also a really big piece of this.

'cause sometimes people who have really deep relationships with family in a healthy way, which is like so cool. Wow. Like, love that for you. Yeah.

[00:48:44] Genevieve: I look at that like an alien. I'm like, what? Yes. You're so, that's so wild.

[00:48:49] Dr. Nicole: You like your family. Wow. You feel good. Wow. You know? And also

[00:48:54] Genevieve: love that for you.

[00:48:55] Dr. Nicole: Totally.

Time and energy. It's fine. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And so when I remove that, it does mean I have more space for sexual exploration. I have more space for community building in these other ways. And so I think that's also a unique give and take of that For sure.

[00:49:11] Genevieve: Yeah. And it can be compounding. Like people will say, you know, how do you have all of the time and energy to be polyamorous or to have multiple partners?

And I was like, well, like we hang out. Right? All, you know, like I don't have to give a different day to each person that I care about. Like quality time can be cumulative, can be compounded, can, and everybody needs different things, you know? And so I have people in my life that if I wanted contact with them more than like once or twice a month, they would feel overwhelmed.

'cause they're so busy and they have so many things going on in their life. So like, both of us want one or two days a month with each other, and that's what we have and our needs are met and it's nice. Mm-hmm. And yeah, so I think there can be an overwhelm too of like, how, how is that possible? It's like, but right.

How is any ecosystem possible? Right? There will be some that, like some parts of an ecosystem that it's a daily, you know, interaction and give and take. And then there will be some parts that are just like you, maybe you don't even interact, but it's influencing you. Like the partner of my partner of my partner Right.

Is doing something. Um, we approach that with like resources as well. 'cause money is finite. Yep. Um, if someone in the extended poly Q is low income or is unemployed or struggling, then it's like, okay, well I have, if my partner is dating someone who's struggling with money, then my partner's going to probably pay for the bulk of their dates together.

And if I'm in a position to then I might pay for the bulk of my dates with my partner. Sure.

[00:50:42] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:50:42] Genevieve: Because, you know, so just like that of. Imagining all of us as part of an ecosystem. Mm-hmm. It doesn't mean I have to be friends with everybody and tight with everybody. It just means they matter. Mm-hmm. And collectively, can we look at where is the need and where is the abundance and move it around so everybody's taken care of to the best of our ability.

Yeah. Um. And that's a really safe feeling because if I am in a position to give, I know I'm also in a position to receive. Mm-hmm. And if things ever aren't okay for me, people will rally for me. So it's okay to give today, 'cause tomorrow I'll receive, you know? Right. Um, so that was also something that I had to like undo when you were talking like private property and like passing things down in blood family and stuff.

Yeah. Which, mm-hmm. First of all, even owning land is wild, right? Yep. Let's go there. Um, that's a whole other conversation. Yep. Um, I like the connection of owning land and owning people. People.

[00:51:42] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:51:43] Genevieve: Yeah. But, but I think that, um, that has really helped, like working on all of these things in all areas of life have helped all of the others, you know, um, collectively.

And so rather than hoarding or holding onto or saying, this belongs to me because I earned it, you didn't earn it. Right? Like that sort of cold, you know, um, approach to resources which lacks empathy and lacks com like, uh, collaboration, um, yeah, yeah,

[00:52:12] Dr. Nicole: yeah, yeah. I'm thinking about the trees and how we know they share resources amongst one another, right?

These are things that we see in nature, the cooperative, uh, qualities of it. Even rewriting some of the evolutionary theory to be more cooperative because we didn't survive just by ourselves. We actually had to work together, right? And so it is really interesting as we're stepping into the current context of modernity, where.

You don't need that anymore because if you have enough money, you can outsource everything.

[00:52:46] Genevieve: Yeah.

[00:52:46] Dr. Nicole: Now of course, I think the reality is that you can't outsource love you. You know, you think you can pay for that, but you really. Can't. Mm-hmm. But we're in such a space where people are like, oh yeah, I'll pay to get the nanny.

I'll pay to get my food delivered. I'll pay to have my clothes that I didn't make myself. I'll pay to have the, uh, chat GBT robot that's telling me I'm great. Right. Like we are in a society now where we don't need. Like in terms of, um, survi like survival pieces. Uh, I hope we can hear the nuance of that when I'm saying that we, we still need love to survive of course, but like we're in this space where compared to previous society, there's so much more opportunity to be deeply individualistic.

And I would say that's more and more of our suffering is coming from, that we're experiencing as a society, the pain, the depression, all of these experiences, it's a deep part of how disconnected we are from each other, from the products of our labor and the work that we do from the earth itself, right?

So I find all of that to be deeply connected to relationship anarchy. If we're talking about deconstructing the power systems, that's something that's here, that's impacting all of us in the ways that we love. And so I really appreciate that frame as you're, as you're sharing of, um, the resources, the mutual aid, being able to trust in the abundance of the web that you're building with other people and.

Like you said, so many people have a hard time envisioning what that looks like in terms of time and energy. Like, how could I have all the time and energy to do this? And again, I get that right? Like that's a piece of my journey too, where I was like, how do you have this many people? And you know, part of my, my big goals for my lifetime, which I love dreaming really, really big, is ending rape culture and inviting the world to reflect on the reality that we all have multiple relationships.

Mm-hmm. And so rather than thinking like, how could I have multiple partners, my, usually my thought process with that person is, let's pause for a moment. What other relationships you already have in your life. And then they can start to say, oh yeah, I have if, if we're in a heteronormative context. So I have my wife and then I have my guy friends that I hang out, and then I have my coworkers, right?

And so in that frame, you know, depending on how open they are, what if you were to able to have sexual and romance and intimacy with some of those other friends you have, right? Mm-hmm. Let alone even non-sexual forms of intimacy. But I think that that starts to get the wheels turning for people where it's like.

Sex and romance specifically is one of the most tricky ones, but for that it doesn't have to be such deep coupling and enmeshment and the narratives of the romance myth and the relationship escalator. What if that was actually a path of intimacy that you could have with multiple people that, like you're saying, I see once a month, I see once a year.

Mm-hmm. Maybe I only do this in a group dynamic. Maybe we don't have the intimacy just one-on-one, but I really love when we get together for a board game night or we get together with a scene, but it's not a person I get coffee with one-on-one. Right. That can be really hard to fathom, but I think the framework of friendship and then the idea of through friendship, what if there was a more intimacy options can kind of make that feel a bit more of a possibility.

[00:56:02] Genevieve: Yeah. Yeah. I try to offer that to anyone who struggles to imagine like the autonomy of their sexual partner, the autonomy of their romantic partner, um, sort of. Imagining. Well, if they go and they connect with someone else, then I'm not enough. That's a commentary on me to become one. I'm supposed to be their other half, so if they need something else, therefore I'm an incomplete half.

And like all of those messaging we get from a very young age when it comes to mono normative environments. But we have a lot more models for friends. It's not that jealousy doesn't exist in friendships. Possessiveness can very much exist in friendships, but we have more models of not being possessive towards a friend enjoying another friend, or not trying to control and experience.

Um, I think it might have been last month where you, um, in your newsletter were talking about exclusivity.

[00:56:56] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:56:56] Genevieve: Um, yeah. And exclusivity of an experience. Forgive me if I'm misquoting you.

[00:57:01] Dr. Nicole: No, you're, you're great. That's awesome.

[00:57:01] Genevieve: Versus exclusivity of connection. Right, right. And, and I think a lot of people are like, I'm, it's what's what makes us special?

Right. If everybody can do anything, then how am I your partner? How are we romantic? Right. And that can be a, an exasperation at the idea of anarchy. Of like, well, if anything is anything, then one even matters. And I'm like, settle down, breathe. Break it down a little bit. It doesn't have to be that dire. I get it.

I get it. There's overwhelm and like. You can have specialness, you can have, um, you can have uniqueness. And it doesn't mean having like propriety over an experience. People will say, well, this is our activity, right? Like even within polyamory, okay, you have sex with other people, you love other people, but if you do this kink with someone else, yeah, that's not okay.

And I think it's fine if, if organically you only want something with one person. But if it ever feels forced or imposed, like I'm not okay, or I don't know what we are, if we're not the only ones doing this, then I do encourage like. Digging a little deeper because with our friendships, we've probably already experienced, you know, the abundance of that, of like, they can go and enjoy a restaurant doesn't mean they hate my cooking.

They, they can go to the theater and love chilling on the couch with me watching movies. Like, and so if we scale that up of like, they, like a partner could very much enjoy a DS connection over here. And then if we, if I'm also a sub, like I'm a totally different person, I'm a totally different sub. Mm-hmm.

It's a totally different connection. We're learning different things even though maybe the optics look similar, we're fundamentally, you know, we have an exclusive connection that

[00:58:44] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:58:44] Genevieve: Can't be replicated. And so I really liked that in, in, in what you wrote because that was like so succinctly saying what I think can be hard emotionally to internalize.

[00:58:56] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. Just trying to write letters to my younger self, you know?

[00:59:01] Genevieve: Yeah,

[00:59:03] Dr. Nicole: yeah. Who's scared and shaking and how do I find security in this? Yeah. You know, you know, 'cause you, you see it deeper down the rabbit hole, down the spiral. Right. You find that reality where you're like, right, I'm special because no one else can be me.

There's only that one person that I'm connecting with, and there's only me. And so the unique bond we make is something that no one else will ever have, regardless of whether they go to the same restaurant, watch the same TV show, use the same sex position, go to the same parties. It's still about. Them and me and the magic that that is, and that's something that you can never take away.

And so it's almost like redefining where we find our identity, redefining where we find our control and our safety and, and that's a huge nervous system rewiring work that you have to take these slow steps, especially depending on where you come from, like us, right? Mm-hmm. That's, that's, mm-hmm. That's a slow nervous system rewiring, like you said, when you got into a safer relationship where there was consent and you weren't being cheated on.

[01:00:14] Genevieve: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:15] Dr. Nicole: There was a lot more safety, and I think that's where I always bring in my work with psychedelic assisted psychotherapy. Mm-hmm. Right? You get those people who have had a difficult experience on a drug and they will say, I will never touch that drug again. It was horrific, scary. One of the worst experiences of my life.

And then you'll get someone else who's like quietly like, okay, like I see that for you. I've had like beautiful experiences on this drug, right? Mm-hmm. And what's the difference? It's not that the drug is bad, and that's a whole political conversation I could get into. There's no bad drugs. Very clear.

Mm-hmm. Um, and specifically it's about the set and setting, right? Yeah. What's going through your mindset, the narratives, the experiences that you're having, how you're understanding this, and then the setting the different context and the external parts. You know, if the mindset's the internal, the external.

Is what forms the setting. And I get really deep on the fact that, you know, as a therapist, the internal is formed by the external. Mm-hmm. So I just start to, you know, it gets very murky. Yeah, sure. But for, for clarity of mine and just some simplicity, we've got the, you know, the internal and the external, and that's what makes the drug experience, right?

Mm-hmm. And so I always apply that to polyamory too, or any form of expansive relating is you could have an experience with a relationship anarchist where you say, that was a nightmare. I'll never talk to one of those again. And part of that is also that it's a minority culture. And so we don't have a, a lot of examples, right?

You'll get someone who's messy in, in monogamy, and we don't go to this next step of, I'm never doing monogamy again, because it's the majority culture. So you get a minority culture, you have and you're like, I'm done. Right? Forgetting that. Humans are. Humans are fall and they're fallible, right? We make mistakes.

We grow and we learn ideally. And also it's more about that setting of the experience than the actual identity of non-monogamy or the practice of relationship anarchy. And so I think that's a really deep lesson that I continue to sit within this space for folks.

[01:02:22] Genevieve: Yeah. Is there a new area that you've realized that in recently?

[01:02:28] Dr. Nicole: Mm, yes. Specifically going back to the dungeon scene where I got fucked with by, by my two partners. It was a period of exploring nom monogamy with someone who was new to polyamory and supportive. But there was this tightness in his chest about it, which like I totally respect, and that's his journey. And what I didn't realize was how much of my caretaking capacities were coming in where I would want to do these things.

And I didn't feel like I was outright letting them go to keep that person safe. Mm-hmm. But when I look back on it, I was constantly kind of looking back and like, Hey, are you are? Are you okay? And he'd be like, yeah, go to the play party. But I could feel the tightness in the chest. Yeah. And when you think about like a kid who wants to go play on the playground, right?

We're talking about attachment, right? If you're a parent, say, yeah, go play on the playground. And then they're like kind of pouting. As you do that as a kid, you're gonna constantly look back and be like, Hey, hey, hey, hey. You good? You're good. You're good.

[01:03:25] Genevieve: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[01:03:26] Dr. Nicole: And so like I have respect for where he was at.

And I think learning now, um, a bit more just insight to realize that I have to be really careful with who comes close into my orbit, because that really deeply impacts me. And for a while I was like, I'm fine. I've got all these different connections who are totally here. We're all at the play party except for this one.

Like, I'm good. Right. And I was reading this psychology book, the Relational Revolution in Psychology, and it's all about the feminist take on how relationships form our experience of life. And it had talked about tuning forks.

[01:04:05] Genevieve: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:06] Dr. Nicole: And when you have eight tuning forks in resonance, but then the ninth comes in.

It changes the whole pitch and frequency of the experience.

[01:04:16] Genevieve: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:17] Dr. Nicole: And so that was something that gave me a bit of peace. Right? Mm-hmm. Where it's like, it's not about my weakness. I do have eight tuning forks who are all with me. But this ninth one that is coming into my consciousness is shifting my frequency, and it's making it real hard to have this scene where I'm having sex with multiple partners because of that ninth tuning fork.

And I think we can lovingly remove that tuning fork or just take more space. Right? Like even as we're talking about parents, like you spoke to the power of your creativity taking off, when you remove that space where you're having to process and process and process, that's a tuning fork that's messing with the frequency you have.

Mm-hmm. And so like how is we, how do we as relationship anarchists do this in a way that's not cutting people off who aren't here? 'cause we're definitely not gonna get to liberation if we're just like, you're not here. Fuck you. Goodbye. That's not the space either, right. Um, but like, how do we find the balance?

How do we find the level of distance and space we're able to do that, you know, political work in our communities, but also have the freedom to really move in the spaces that are in alignment for you. And I think for myself, that's something I've learned about proximity and the sacredness of how close someone can get and what I share and what sort of feedback I'm open to.

'cause like you said, even with your content, some person thinks it's great, the other person thinks that you're, you know, fucking the devil and it's like, wow. Mm-hmm. You know, it's like I can't,

[01:05:44] Genevieve: like y'all are watching the same video.

[01:05:46] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I can't internalize all of that, you know what I mean?

[01:05:49] Genevieve: Yeah,

[01:05:50] Dr. Nicole: yeah,

[01:05:51] Genevieve: yeah.

Um, I don't know if you know Libby Sin Back? Yes. She goes by that Poly Am mom. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, she and I were talking once where she was like, yeah, basically I, I named the shape of. A relationship with a person of like, at what distance can we be, where we both still care about each other and aren't trying to change each other.

[01:06:09] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:06:09] Genevieve: And that acceptance of like, I don't have the power to change you even if I want to, no matter how much I might want to. Right.

[01:06:17] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:06:17] Genevieve: So I'm accepting that you're in charge of, of that. And so how far, how close am I gonna be from you? And it doesn't mean we throw people away. Right. You know, I think that's very much a last resort for somebody who's like physically unsafe.

Mm-hmm. Um. But it means like, I might not wanna, you know, talk to you all the time if you keep doing passive aggressive things, for instance. Right. Not I I'm saying you and I'm looking at you, but I'm not talking about you. That's, that just messed with me a little bit. Um, but yeah, like if, if a partner were to have that tightness, like you're saying, and now I'm in my head, yeah, okay, well maybe I need to like not be that person for you, not be in that role for you because I'm worried or I'm holding myself back.

I'm self-censoring and you're not asking me to. Right. But I've noticed this affects me when we are in this role. So maybe. Maybe I see you less often, or I see you at events, or you're not my first emotional support call. You're the fifth person I might call. Or Yeah. You know, just really getting into the practicalities of like, what do we need to stop doing or do less of in order to stop being frustrated that the other person isn't changing.

Mm-hmm. Um, and I do that even with like partners that we wanna keep the shape of relationship, but I do quite well with structure and routine tend to fall for people who are quite a DHD, beautiful butterflies. The balance and our, our concept of time is different. And so how much of it is me, you know, trying to meet them halfway and how much of it is me wanting their brain to work differently, you know, of if, if they lose track of time or can't commit to a date.

Am I asking something that, that they can't give, and so I'm gonna be perpetually upset. Mm-hmm. And so even in that way with relationships that we're at a good distance, but maybe what we're expecting should shift, um, to keep trialing and erroring that until it feels like for the most part it's in harmony.

And if things aren't working and somebody is like, well, I want them to work, I'm gonna change this in me, you know, that needs to be internally motivated. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, I think, I think acceptance as the answer to all things beyond my control, like I am when it comes to interpersonal relationships, you know, it's like I am not going to, I don't have the power to change you, I can tell you, but I think I can tell you how I feel.

I can tell you what I want. Yeah. I can tell you what your behavior does to me and mm-hmm. You know, all of that and what I think about it, but. I, I, I literally can't make you have a different routine. I literally can't make you look at your trauma.

[01:08:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:08:57] Genevieve: You know, I can't make you get sober. Like, you know, I've been to plenty of valon meetings of just like, letting go, letting, letting the whirlwind be a whirlwind because it's bigger than you.

And, and not confusing that with like, at a larger scale. Obviously we wanna push for like, change legally, socially. Like, let's rally, let's organize to get, you know, bigger change from the bottom up. But interpersonally not trying to impose on each other, this is how you should be. This is like the correct way to be.

Um, but to try to see each other where we are and then adjust our own internal boundaries based on that, you know? Yeah.

[01:09:39] Dr. Nicole: Uh, I love a good work. You know, that's some hard work. Yeah. I was thinking about my mom, I was like, oh, yeah. You know, 'cause you like see deeper into Mormonism control structures and it's hard to, especially where I came from, to get out of that, to see that and you want to say, Hey, don't do this.

Mm-hmm. Just even more complicated in a power dynamic like that with child mother. Right. Very complicated. And so yeah, that question of how close can we be so that we're in a space of allowing each other that freedom. Right. That's tricky. And I think part of the nuance of that is not ghosting people in that process, I think for a while.

And by ghosting I don't mean completely not responding because that's not necessarily what I'm, I'm referring to, I guess I'm, I'm saying ghosting in the process of taking.

[01:10:35] Genevieve: Hmm.

[01:10:35] Dr. Nicole: Right, because some of us might notice, oh, I'm, I'm feeling like you know, this connection. They're not showing up for me. Maybe they're not asking me enough questions about my life.

And it feels like they're only in their own head. And so we slowly tar start to take these steps back from the dynamic without naming any of it. And I think that's something that I've done in the past of, because of this, this heart here, right? Right here of I can't control this person. All I can control is myself.

So I'll just start taking steps back. But in that process, I am a kind of. Ghosting that person by not coming to the relationship and saying, Hey, I'm noticing these things. Can we work on it together? I'm not really giving it that opportunity to be able to change and grow. I'm just kind of like ghosting by slowly walking away and just maybe taking longer to respond, maybe not showing up.

Right. And so I think there's even nuance to that of of, of course there are certain relationships I think, where we can look at it and say, wow, if I pour my time and energy into this connection of trying to explain the conflict that's going on, I don't think it's gonna land. I don't think this person is gonna receive it.

And so at times, maybe that is the right step to not put our emotional energy into that space for safety or even just the concepts of emotional time and energy and, and kind of knowing that where that person is at and also how can we show up in our relationships and actually name. Get comfortable with conflict and say, Hey, I'm noting noticing some lack of accountability in your actions here and I'm really struggling.

Can we have a conversation about this together with curiosity and openness? Damn, those are some hard skills to learn. That is not what society models to us and any capacity. And so it's often this like scratch internally of like find new language. It feels like I'm tunneling, like to find new space and words to name some of these like smaller emotions that so much of our society doesn't spend time.

Again, let's make it political, right? The cog in the machine. Right? Like a, a worker in a capitalistic structure that lives at a, like in a factory essentially working all day long. They're much easier to control if you don't have a lot of emotional insight and skills and relational skills. 'cause you know what would happen if we did?

We'd all ban the fuck together and say, Uhhuh, what the hell is this shit? Uhhuh? And so the more you keep them in the workspace and working, working, working, not building these skills, the easier they are to control. Yeah. Right? And so it is so real and so inherently political. I love relationship anarchy, right?

To take that frame and understand that this struggle, we all have to find these words to find the way to communicate this. It's a hundred percent political and a part of the structure that keeps power at the very tip top.

[01:13:16] Genevieve: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. If we're all exhausted and burnt out and in survival mode, then we're not gonna be pushing for any kind of change.

Um. Yeah, Michelle, uh, polyamorous while Asian, um mm-hmm. She is describing how like her first, uh, realization of that was why, why isn't there in the middle of suburbia? Why isn't there, um, a laundromat in the middle that everyone can use? Why does everyone need to buy their own washer dryer? And we're not all sharing, and we're not all communi, like communicating and meeting in a central place.

It's like, because that structurally benefits, like if everyone has to buy their own, then that benefits the company selling them. But also it benefits people to really stay closed to their nuclear family. Mm-hmm. And just in the get up, you know, feed the kids, go to work, come home, exhausted, go to bed. Yeah.

Like, and so yeah, I really think like, um, and there, there are monogamous people I know who practice relationship anarchy, and they're just like, I don't. Tend to want more than one romantic or sexual person. Sure. But, but here I am like trying to decentral decent decenter Decenter. Yes. Um, uh, romance from huge my relationships and, and work on community.

Um, yeah, there was something else you were saying about Oh, so meeting people where they're at. If, if people really are out of practice of naming what their feelings are. Um, I think it can be easy in a lot of our spaces, um, or at least what I've experienced is people have read a lot of theory and they have a lot of language that resonates.

And the practical application of it can sometimes be hard to explain.

[01:14:59] Dr. Nicole: Oh my God. Yeah.

[01:14:59] Genevieve: And, and so I'll see people be like, well, you practice hierarchical polyamory, therefore you're bad and wrong and therefore you're unsafe and I don't wanna be around you. And I'm like. But did you ask them what that means?

Mm. Like, you know, because obviously, like I said, I definitely know firsthand what it can be to choose, um, and, and impose a hierarchy to other people's, uh, detriment. Obviously, I'm, I'm pro questioning.

[01:15:25] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:15:26] Genevieve: But. I was talking to this girl who's like, yeah, I practice hierarchy. And then she started explaining how she handles conflict and explaining how, uh, she treats everybody and explaining what her priorities are.

And I was like, oh, so you just like have a spouse, right? You have a spouse and you have kids and you do have asymmetry, but like, you and I actually overlap in a lot of our values and in the way we treat people, and you're using that label. Whereas I've seen people use the RA label and then tell their partner, you have to spend this many days per week with me, otherwise it's unfair.

Oh God, I should be able to dictate your schedule, da, da, da. And I'm like, where's the, in my guy? What? What? You know, like, and so, so really getting into the plain language and like you said, coming with curiosity, but really just boiling it down to what are we literally doing? Mm-hmm. You know? And. Instead of, do you have hierarchy?

I will ask people like, so if your wife feels upset and we have a date planned, how do you handle that? You know, and going to a vulnerable place of like, 'cause I'm scared 'cause the last person I dated who had a wife, I got dropped when she had a meltdown. And like that. That's way more honest and vulnerable, but it's also more specific.

So I'm probably actually gonna get my question answered right than asking this more theory thing of like hierarchy, right? Mm-hmm. People often don't use that word in a way that. We're even saying the same thing. They'll use that word to say 12 different things and I'm like, this is not a productive chat anyway.

[01:16:59] Dr. Nicole: So. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I hear that. I hear that the nuance that is lost in a comment section, right? Mm-hmm. The fights that can break out there rather than, like you're saying, getting, getting into the practice of what that actually looks like. Um, I was very new to the concepts of all of this and was writing my dissertation as I was learning about it, which was quite the journey.

And so I had so much language, but my body had not adjusted yet to the practice. 'cause you can write, you know, essentially you can read books all day long about swimming.

And then you get in the water and you're like, how do I do that thing? Which is, yeah. You know, it's like the body experience of that. When you hear your, your partner's going on a date with someone else, you know what the word conversion is, but your body is having some other reaction. And that makes sense.

Again, given the systems. Right? And this concept of hierarchy was something I had thought about with my dissertation for so long of removing the hierarchy or rewriting it. Rewriting the meaning of what it, what it can be. And I ultimately landed on that title because I, I was really thinking about the ways of.

What is hierarchy doesn't mean that if I have four partners, I go 25% here, 25% here, and 20, you know like

[01:18:17] Genevieve: mm-hmm.

[01:18:18] Dr. Nicole: Originally, I actually thought that. I was like, great, I'll do very clear, like four of them. We spread it out, and then once I got deeper into the concepts of family and friends and the whole reality that it's not about partners, right?

I was like, oh, wow. So how many people do I have in my life? How do I, okay, you're right. I cannot equally spread all this out. And so no matter what you do, there's gonna be a stratification of these limited resources called time and energy. Love is abundant. Yes, absolutely. But there are these finite resources of time and energy.

There's 8 billion people on this planet.

[01:18:55] Genevieve: Mm-hmm.

[01:18:55] Dr. Nicole: There is no way that you have the same level of connection with 8 billion people. So accept that grief and let's step into the next space. Okay. There's the stratification. Great. How can I be so conscious of the fact that time and energy are political resources?

[01:19:13] Genevieve: Mm-hmm.

[01:19:15] Dr. Nicole: What does my community look like? Does it have a mix of identities, abilities, um, socioeconomic status that we're sharing, resources, all of that, right? Like those are inherent pieces to this of where am I using this very limited resource of power in the natural stratification. So I won't even use the word hierarchy 'cause it just sets off so many things.

Mm-hmm. The natural stratification of the finiteness of our human existence. Right. You're gonna die. I'm gonna die. Right. There's only so much time here. How do I want to spend that? Right. And I'm much more interested, like you said, in if your wife is having a conflict, are you just gonna drop me and say, sorry she can't do this.

Or are you gonna work through that together? Do you have a plan to be able to work through that discomfort so that you're not treating me like an object to spice up your marriage and that every now and then when you want this cute little object thing to come in and spice up your life. Right. Like.

That's the nuance, like you're saying, when you ask that question more directly, you get into that. Mm-hmm. Rather than this question of do you practice hierarchy or not, which like, I, I agree. Tells me nothing.

[01:20:23] Genevieve: Yeah.

[01:20:24] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:20:25] Genevieve: People don't know. People can't self-report sometimes because they don't actually know what.

That means. Mm-hmm. And or they, or they've associated hierarchy equals bad and I'm not bad, therefore I'm not hierarchy hierarchical. And I'm like, ugh. Um, yeah. Yeah. And what you're saying, like, just brings me back to this idea of the ecosystem of like, if you look at the complexity of an ecosystem, it is asymmetrical.

Mm-hmm. It would be weird if like a gator and a frog and the swamp and the algae, if they all had like equal rolls. It's like, that's straight. That's not how it works. I'm from Florida in the upper,

[01:21:01] Dr. Nicole: I can hear it

[01:21:02] Genevieve: swampy. Yeah.

Um, I have a, a life-sized alligator tattoo from my neck. Love that neck to my knee hot.

Um, so, but yeah, it's like we're, we're all doing different roles and we can all be like happy in our different roles and, and if I want, if I wanted to be someone's, you know, cohabitating partner and they don't want that with me, they want that with someone else. Like accepting that that's not. Injustice.

Right? They just don't want that with me. And like grieving that, that, that is very different than them saying, well, because I cohabit by default, I make decisions with them and I just tell you, I update you. I don't make decisions with you. Right? Mm-hmm. I see that as uncool. Mm-hmm. I would like to be included in decisions that affect me, you know?

Yeah, yeah. Um, so, you know, trying to flatten the, the power dynamics to the best of our ability while still existing in a world that caters to couples, um, yeah, but not. Confusing that with like equal distribution, that everyone gets the same stuff 'cause mm-hmm. That's just not, that's that. I think that that is forcing on us a relationship structure.

It's, it's artificial, it's imposed, which is what we're trying to get away from. Right. You know, you're, you're not a resource, you're an autonomous person and if you wanna be with one person five nights a week, you are allowed to want that and do that, you know?

[01:22:27] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:22:28] Genevieve: Um, and it just matters how people are treated and, and how it's all communicated.

Um, right. But it's tricky 'cause it's emotionally charged. Mm-hmm. And hard to, hard to talk with people about, because we've all been in some kind of, if you're, if you're polyamorous, you've been in some end of that equation where it's a very personal hurt Yeah. Specific person you're thinking of. Yeah. Uh, and so talk about that specific person and how they sucked, you know, and like, um, yeah.

To not zoom out and try and control other people's actions because of like unresolved pain or, you know.

[01:23:02] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:23:03] Genevieve: So, yeah. No, it's really lovely talking with you about all of this, like mm-hmm. It's just very easy. Um. You're so, you've spent so much time sitting with it, you know? Mm-hmm. Like reading, reading your research, reading your, um, your newsletters.

I'm like, there is, it's so clear when someone can explain simply such heavy, complex things. I'm like, you've been thinking about this. The work that goes into saying so little to summarize so much, you know? So I see that. I appreciate that about what you do.

[01:23:37] Dr. Nicole: I appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you. I can resonate with the frame of the OCD and I wanna burn that for you if it feels accurate.

I wanna honor if it feels authentic and also like what is that muscle that we have, right. Because that's a part of what this has been for me is that, yeah, I think about this stuff all the time.

[01:23:58] Genevieve: Mm-hmm.

[01:23:59] Dr. Nicole: All the time. All the time. All the time. And I think that. It's such a joy to do that because it's a part of the revolution that I really hope for the world, right?

Mm-hmm. Is that if we can spend this time getting into the nitty gritty of what this looks like, maybe that younger version of, you know, humanity that's just coming in that's gonna be able to read the books that we write, listen to the podcasts we have, they get to start in such a, a more open space than you and I ever did.

Mm-hmm. And so I have so much joy in like seeing where we're at. Mm-hmm. In the position of history. Right. Again. Marital rapes not illegal until 30 years ago.

[01:24:42] Genevieve: Yeah.

[01:24:42] Dr. Nicole: Look at where we're at right here. Where that's not something we're concerned about in America. Right. Um, for now. And, and the reality of the younger generations who get to like, listen to this content we have, like, they are gonna go so much further than I can ever even imagine.

And yet, while I'm here, I'm gonna spend so much time, so much time thinking about it and trying to form language to it because it's what we need. We need more language to be able to practice these things. We need models of people like you who can speak to what it looks like, um, people like me who can speak to that dungeon scene, you know, and wanting to have a kid one day where I pick them up the next night at preschool, right?

Like all of that. We need examples of that so that the, the revolution can happen, right? We're, we're such a small blip in the time of humanity, right? And so. Ah, it's just a joy truly to like really devote yourself to a subject. Like one of those things where even the days where you might get a little bored, you know, bored, quote unquote, like, like a relationship, right?

[01:25:48] Genevieve: Mm-hmm.

[01:25:49] Dr. Nicole: It's something like, anytime I feel like, ah, I've, I've looked at it all with sex. I'm like, okay, hold on girl. Let's take a step back some curiosity. Remember where you've came from, and that's a beautiful invitation for any of our long-term relationships, right? Whether it's to a human. Sometimes you're like, ah, I know every bit of this per, okay, let's, let's take a step back.

Remember the individuation, the journey of where you've come from, the ways they're always changing, the relationships you have to space, right? The alligators, the swamp, right? Like that impacts who you are. And so I, I see relationship anarchy as such a deep embrace of not just relationships to people, but also relationships to space, to our time in history to the earth, right?

All these different things. I really do see that as part of the practice and the joy of knowing that like, yeah, we still will get to the end of our lives one day and being like. Damn, there's more. And also I did a good job really unpacking what I could, you know what I mean?

[01:26:46] Genevieve: Yeah, yeah. You know, no, I mean, sometimes people will, will say like, oh, this sounds like so much work, this, all these relationships, and yeah.

And I'm like, yes and no. Like Im, I'm happy to have the luxury and the nerd, the relationship nerdiness Yes. To think about a lot of stuff for you. Um, not that, you know, you don't have to resonate with me, but like to think about a lot of stuff so I can try and condense it into a bite-sized package. Yes. I was thinking about this y yesterday when I was putting a bandaid on and I was like, the amount of knowledge of studying plants and what heels and what adhesive is not going to make people allergic and like the amount of people being nerdy about a specific kind of thing that got me this bandaid right now.

Yeah. Yeah. That I can benefit from that. And I don't have to be in all of that digging around necessarily, like to understand I, I can just. You know, stand on their shoulders and, and benefit from their work. And so that's, that's the work that I want to do, you know, not to like, you know, fuel us up too much of like talking about how you deserve it, how, how much we work,

[01:27:46] Dr. Nicole: take it.

[01:27:47] Genevieve: I just, I, that's a very counterintuitive thing, but I, I'm grateful, I'm grateful for the luxury of being able to, um, think and talk about relationship anarchy stuff. Yeah. Because then for the person who's coming home from work exhausted and feeding the kids and just like has maybe an hour to themself, like, I would love to give you a bite sized thing so that you don't have to read a whole bunch in order to feel more liberated in your relationships, you know?

[01:28:13] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely.

[01:28:14] Genevieve: So, yeah.

[01:28:15] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. I hope you can be proud of the work that you're doing and the impact you have on people.

[01:28:22] Genevieve: Yeah, it's, it is the, uh, I don't know. I, I've, I had it ingrained very young to be like, I am one among many and I'm happy for that role. Yeah. Um, which I don't think is a bad place to be.

Mm-hmm. But I do have all of my friends pushing me to celebrate wins as well. So I, that's probably where I still have to work on, but mm-hmm. Um, I'm grateful for, yeah, the, the chance to be able to tell my story, but also tell other people's stories and model, give more models, give more examples so that.

People can be like, oh, I, maybe I can do this.

[01:28:56] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And I appreciate the acknowledgement of privilege in that, right? Like, that's such a huge piece of that, right? To understand that there's so much privilege here to have that. So I appreciate holding that and, and the dichotomy of holding, like the strength you have to do this and the privilege, right?

And so that's a very, um, important dance. And I think I wanna, you know, before we move to our closing question, just, you know, remind the listeners something that I've. Learned through my training with psychedelics. We often talk about the inner healing wisdom, right? We've created this like healing container.

You come in, you're having your psychedelic experience, and we wanna invite you to trust yourself. And as you were speaking about the bandaid, it was bringing that up for me because part of what we say is in the same way that a flower right knows to turn towards the sun, it's very intuitive for them, right?

The same way that if you have a scar, it cuts, you need a bandaid. This the trigger, right? For that, the connection point, um, the body naturally knows how to heal. And so I wanna invite all of the listeners to, to trust in themselves that those things that speak to you, those things that turn you on, not even just in a sexual way, but truly in a life force, excitement, joy, alive way.

Those are important. And I feel like that's your inner healing wisdom. Speaking to something that is calling to you just as much as relationship anarchy spoke to me. I'm sure it spoke to you, right? There was a life force to that. Mm-hmm. And so you can trust in that, right. Dear listener. You can like really trust in that and continue to follow those threads down the rabbit hole because there's so much healing and liberation there.

Mm.

[01:30:38] Genevieve: Yeah.

[01:30:38] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Well, I'm gonna take a deep breath with you as we're coming towards the end of our time. Okay. Ah. And I wanna check in and see if there's anything else that you wanna share with the listeners. Otherwise I have a closing question for us.

[01:30:58] Genevieve: Hmm. No, I don't, I don't think I have anything else at the moment other than like, I just really wanna encourage people to build their trust in themselves.

[01:31:09] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly.

[01:31:11] Genevieve: And, and listen. Listen to your body and listen to yourself. You know, it's all good info, even if you don't like what it's telling you. Yeah. You know,

[01:31:20] Dr. Nicole: insight, insight lessons.

[01:31:22] Genevieve: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:31:23] Dr. Nicole: I'm curious then, for you, if you were to try and go back to your younger consciousness, what words of advice and wisdom would you share with her?

[01:31:33] Genevieve: Hmm. I wonder if, if she would listen. Oh, because I can be quite stubborn. Mine

[01:31:40] Dr. Nicole: would not

[01:31:40] Genevieve: under that. Um, I don't know. I can be quite like, Nope, I've got it figured out. I used to be, now I might be too far in the other direction. I hear you. The more you know, the more you don't know. Um,

[01:31:51] Dr. Nicole: yep. Yep.

[01:31:53] Genevieve: What I say to her, like, just, I don't know.

Hmm. When I say, do you have to do this alone? Oof. Would probably be a question I ask her.

[01:32:06] Dr. Nicole: Ugh.

[01:32:07] Genevieve: Do you have to, you know, what, if what, what if you trusted somebody to help you with this? That would probably be where I start, because I think it might be too big a leap to be like, what if you imagined community?

[01:32:22] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:32:22] Genevieve: But more of like

[01:32:23] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[01:32:24] Genevieve: What if you let your armor down a little bit? With who? Who might you, what hypothetical person might you let your armor down? What do they sound like? What do they, what do they do? What are the green flags like to practically try to imagine who to go towards, to start to feel safer and start to feel like it could be okay to trust again.

[01:32:45] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So powerful when you lose your whole 200 people, community and your family.

[01:32:56] Genevieve: Yeah. Hyper individualism can be a survival skill. Yeah. That's why I have so much empathy and love when I see people who are in that space and that really guarded space and it's exhausting. It's so exhausting and unsustainable.

[01:33:12] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:33:12] Genevieve: So imagining the, the small pockets of space where you can let your armor down a little bit, I think is, I think every hyper independent person wants some relief. Yeah. So absolutely you can have that. You can totally have that. You know, there are people who will do right by you, I promise. You know?

Absolutely. It's just a matter of finding them. Yeah.

[01:33:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Such beautiful words of wisdom. Yeah. Alright, so the one question that I ask everyone on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:33:52] Genevieve: Hmm.

The first thing that comes to mind is awkwardness in sex. Yeah.

[01:34:02] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:34:02] Genevieve: Like I just, I every, and maybe it goes back to the beginning when we were talking about letting go of shame and stuff. I imagined and would and would mask and perform what I thought good sex was like.

[01:34:19] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:34:19] Genevieve: And I was not connecting with the person.

Mm-hmm. I was just concerned with like the image of it and. To be able to start and stop to be able to say, oh, weird. What is my body doing right now? Yeah. Like to be in the middle of a hot and heavy kink scene and then Yeah. You fart like Yep. You know? Yep. Like that kind of realness is so freeing. And to be with a sexual partner who rolls with it with you and lets you have a body and you let them have a body that's deep trust, that's like, oh, you still find me really hot and I have an awkward body.

Yeah. Right. Like that. And then it's, that's when I really started to find pleasure was in getting back into my body and not performing and really trying to be present with the other person. Um, but there was so much shedding that had to happen before I could enjoy. What we were doing together and get out of my head.

Um, so I do wish people knew that was more normal as they explore new things. Um, because for so many people, we don't have enough sex education. Sometimes porn is their sex education. For me, Sexaholics Anonymous was my sex education, you know, and like it's just, you know, to, to, to embrace the humanity of, of the moment.

Um, and that's where I've found deep intimacy. Even if we don't keep having sex, even if nobody climaxes, like the safety of being held and being allowed to just be everything you are actually everything you are, you know?

[01:36:02] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I'm hearing some emotionality there.

[01:36:05] Genevieve: It's so touching. It's just so warm. It's just so safe feeling.

And I think it compounds with what I said of like, you can trust somebody. Again. It's like trusting that somebody will still want you if you are your yous, you. Mm-hmm. You know? And I'm so grateful that I took the leap of faith as an educated guess. It was a kind person we built trust, all of that. But like, I'm so grateful to be letting my guard down with people because it's so nice to know you don't have to do this alone.

Yeah.

[01:36:43] Dr. Nicole: Hmm. Yeah. I can really feel that.

[01:36:47] Genevieve: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:36:48] Dr. Nicole: Transformative. How you then show up for yourself in other areas of your life, how you show up in your community and. It's certainly not all about orgasm, but I will say the orgasms in that space

[01:37:03] Genevieve: can be very nice.

[01:37:04] Dr. Nicole: Wow.

[01:37:05] Genevieve: Very nice.

[01:37:05] Dr. Nicole: Wow. My last one, I was like, I think I released six demons in that last one.

Right. When you really Cool say for like, wow, what was that? I feel very free now. Wow. You know, Uhhuh. So those are the beautiful play spaces. Truly. Truly. Mm.

[01:37:23] Genevieve: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:37:25] Dr. Nicole: It was such a joy to have you on the podcast today. Oh my.

[01:37:28] Genevieve: Thank you so, so much for inviting me. This is a pleasure.

[01:37:32] Dr. Nicole: Of course. I know all of the listeners are gonna be dying to know where can they find your content, your podcast, how can they connect with you?

[01:37:41] Genevieve: Sure. Um, I'm at Chill polyamory in all of the places. Instagram, TikTok. I'm on YouTube. I have two YouTube channels. One, uh, has the media analysis, so that's non-monogamy and pop culture, and that's chill polyamory, and then chill Polyamory two TOO. Uh, that is where I do long form question and answer. It's more of like a polyamory advice channel.

Um, so I have resources on patreon.com/show polyamory. That's where I offer pen pals and, um, live chats as well as a couple hundred. Yeah, resources. And what is the other thing? Oh, my podcast. A podcast called I could Never, um, I could never. It is a non-monogamy story time anthology. You know, it's. It's bringing people from all over the world and being like, what's it look like for you?

Tell us everything. Yeah, beautiful. The gossip, the heartwarming moments. So that's, I could never, and that's on all of the places you get podcasts.

[01:38:37] Dr. Nicole: Amazing. Amazing. You're doing such great work in the world, and I'll have all of that linked in the show notes below dear listeners, so you can go and find the links and connect with Genevieve there.

So thank you again for coming on the show. Thank you. Dear listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Modern Anarchy. Thank you for sharing this episode with your friends, with your lovers, with your community. Truly, it means so much to me and I am so grateful that you are here. If you are wanting to release jealousy in your nonmonogamous dynamics and step into a compersion and pleasure filled connection, you can read my book, the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide for free on my website.

There you'll also find so many other free resources, including worksheets. On how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non-monogamous dynamics and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure filled sex and relationships.

So head on over to modern Anarchy podcast.com to find all of those free resources, and I look forward to seeing you next week.