242. Pleasure is the Power: A Female Led Revolution with Dr. Tammy Nelson

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole,

but she's screaming inside at me. Try.

On today's episode, we have Dr. Tammy Nielsen. Join us for a conversation about the power of liberating our collective pleasure. Together we talk about the vast continuum from monogamy to non-monogamy. Releasing the restrictions of shame and some extremely necessary updates to our sexuality research.

Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. I'm Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, author of the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and founder of the Pleasure Practice Supporting Individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships.

Dear listener. This episode is so good. This episode is so good. I am happy that you're here because there are some much needed updates to our research, and I love how Dr. Tammy Nielsen just came in and said, yeah, that's some bullshit, and we gotta update all of this. Right? I remember having this recording with her and feeling the confidence in her voice.

Dear listener, you know, I'm always talking about the body. It's so connected to our pleasure and the voice being so connected to our breath, our orgasms being so connected to our breath, and when we're scared, right? We, we tremble and we have this, well, well, maybe the research needs to be updated. I don't know.

Right? Versus. No, absolutely not. It's crap. It has not been replicated. And what we're seeing now is that women grow tired of monogamy faster than men. That's a fact, right? We're seeing that in the research. And so I love the empowerment of Dr. Tammy Nielsen's voice here, and I love how it brought me into even more confidence to assert these things, to talk about the research, and really leave behind all of the patriarchal bullshit in the past.

And so, dear listener, thanks for being here. Thanks for sharing these episodes with your friends, because it's about time that we update this stuff. All the females out there, all of my Afab folks, all of my open-hearted queers. I see you, and this revolution is gonna be led by us. The people who are really looking at the modern research and saying, Hey, these storylines, these narratives from the past, they are not accurate.

Who are they serving? Who have they been here to serve? It's not us. That's for damn sure. And so I am so excited to be in this space with you, dear listener, where we are writing a whole new narrative. A whole new narrative. And each week, dear listener, we're gonna continue to go deeper and deeper into our collective pleasure liberation, and I am so glad that you were here for that.

All right, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and free resources@modernanarchypodcast.com, link in the show notes below. And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all my Patreon supporters, you are supporting the long-term sustainability of the show, keeping this content free and accessible to all people.

So thank you. And with that dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode.

Dear listener, there's a space already waiting for you where you are invited to let go of every old script about sex and relationships, and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure, empowerment, and deep alignment. I am Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real transformation possible. And I'll be right there with you guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure and visit modern anarchy podcast.com/pleasure practice to apply.

And the first question that I ask every guest on the show is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:05:53] Dr. Tammy: I am Dr. Tammy Nelson. I am a board certified sexologist. I'm a certified sex therapist, a certified sex and couples therapists, um, a professional counselor. I'm an Imago relationship therapist.

Mm, mm-hmm. Also the founder and director of the Integrative Sex Therapy Institute. And I'm the author of six books, which we can talk about. I'm a TEDx speaker and I'm the host of the podcast, the Trouble With Sex.

[00:06:19] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Such a joy to have you on the podcast today. Thank you for joining us. Thank you.

[00:06:24] Dr. Tammy: Yeah.

[00:06:25] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I had read your book, open Monogamy when I was working on my dissertation a few years back, and just ate it in a couple of days. Just gobbled it down, you know? It was so good. I was like, yes, yes, yes, yes. Read it. So, it's such a joy to have you on the podcast today.

[00:06:40] Dr. Tammy: Thank you. That's really nice to hear.

You know, people read an average of like four chapters in in books like that, so they hear that you like actually read it is such, it's so flattering. Thank you.

[00:06:50] Dr. Nicole: Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. I read it so quickly and that's when I know I found something that I really like. You know, I think it's the therapist lens and, and my lens as well.

So it just aligns really quickly and you can just eat that up like candy, right?

[00:07:04] Dr. Tammy: Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot of stories, a lot of like real people and, and also, you know, choice. I think that's all about choice.

[00:07:12] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And so I guess my first question when I was preparing for this interview was thinking about, given all your research and the lens that you have on the world, what do you see for the future of relationships?

What are you seeing in your positionality of where we are moving and going as a culture?

[00:07:33] Dr. Tammy: You know, it's so. It is such a weird time, isn't it? Such, yeah. Messed up time. March, 2025 or whenever this is gonna be released. This timing is just fascinating. Like we are at a place in history where this sort of disempowerment and disenfranchising of women and people in alternative relationships and alternative orientations and bodies and just this sort of repression, I think goes, you know, way back to the repression of pleasure.

Yep. And pleasure as a sin. Like Eve ate that damn apple and brought down the whole world and we're like back to that. Like you can't be naked because you will. You know, the power of our sexuality is gonna destroy the world. And it's just such a fear response in this sort of patriarchal way of saying women's pleasure responses, anything to do with women and pleasure has to be repressed.

'cause we know we can see it coming, it's gonna take over the planet. So let's put our thumb down on it as much as we can now. Yeah. Before we're all ready and gone. And try to leave our mark because I really do believe that pleasure is where the power is. And so we are changing that conversation. It's just gonna be painful.

[00:08:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. '

[00:09:00] Dr. Tammy: cause we're not gonna do it. Like men do it like we're not gonna fight. Like pleasure isn't about fighting. Right. It's almost the opposite of that. So it's gonna look much different. And plus we're just exhausted.

[00:09:14] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:09:15] Dr. Tammy: We're tired.

[00:09:17] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, even the research I've seen at non-monogamy being often led by women.

Right. I feel like that's a part of the conversation is the ways that women have been because of societal conditions. So relational. So relational and often leading more of these conversations than men.

[00:09:37] Dr. Tammy: Yeah, I mean I definitely see that and well, in heterosexual couples, what I see is interesting, like the guys will open the conversation, they'll say, you know, let's do some variety.

Let's open the relationship, takes the heterosexual women a little bit longer to make the decision, but then the men will try to shut it down faster and women don't shut it down. Like it's open. They're like, no thanks. This is great and it really works for me. And you know, multiple partnerships. And the more support, the better, right?

The more people that have an eye on my kids, and the more people I can experience pleasure with, like the better. So why would I wanna shut that down? Right? Right. Hetero couples. Yeah.

[00:10:21] Dr. Nicole: Uhhuh. Yeah. I mean, I love the way that it raises the standards. It's definitely something that I've experienced in my life as a polyamorous person with open relationships, right?

The more connections that you have, the more you can take a full assessment of how you're being treated in each dynamic and realize, wow, actually this behavior over here really isn't okay anymore. Right? And so it continues to raise that standard. And I think given the patriarchal society that we all live under, the more that women realize that and are able to upgrade their level of treatment because for years, we have not been treated well.

Right? So I think that that is a part of the dynamic that is unfolding.

[00:11:00] Dr. Tammy: I love the way you said that, and I think it's also, it's more of like a matriarchal. Culture where it, what are you gonna bring into this group? Like what do you have to offer instead of what are you coming in to suck the life out of?

Like the patriarchal structure is, is sort of the pyramid that the, the mother load is at the top of. And that's where the resources are. So you have to step over everyone at the bottom to get to the top. But the way that we're doing and seeing open relationships now, it's uh, it's much more collaborative.

Mm-hmm. So, you know, if you have something to offer that's gonna improve the, the relationship, then great. It's not about sucking the life out of it. So it's a different way of looking at resources too.

[00:11:44] Dr. Nicole: Right. And I think that's where I think about community and conflict and what happens when you are connecting with so many different people and you see someone in their relational trauma as you were saying.

I'm thinking specifically about a recent experience I had traveling in. A connection of a handful of people who we were all inter relating sexually and romantically and going through lots of conflict. And you know, when you travel you get to see a lot mm-hmm. Of people and in ways that, especially in open dynamics where you might not be living together, you might not be seeing each other every day.

So you might see each other once a month and then you go travel and you see a lot of that person, right. So, so when you see that and you see someone in their trauma and the ways they relate, I have trauma, you know, we all have different things that we're working through, but when you see someone where there's a lot of healing to be done and you care about them, it's like, how do I keep you in my community but not hurt myself in that proximity?

I think these are the things I'm exploring with relationship anarchy as I've expanded into lots of romantic sexual different connections is, you know, how do I love these people? And also. Manage myself at the same time.

[00:12:53] Dr. Tammy: Yeah. That's really nice. I like the way you said that.

[00:12:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's tricky.

I think that's where I start to think about the structures of, uh, therapy being how, you know, when you see someone that's hurting like that often you'll say, oh, they need to go to therapy. They need to do this. Which is, you know, a helpful space. But this way that we often, in our relational webs will push people out who are hurting onto a paid, capitalistic way of healing, which is really fascinating.

So I, I think as a relationship anarchist, I see a lot of the structures in the, the micro ways that we manage community.

[00:13:27] Dr. Tammy: Mm-hmm. I mean, because I'm a therapist and because I'm in that privileged position. I'm not gonna say that these people shouldn't go to therapy, right? Everyone should go to therapy. Um, but I think there is a shift in the way that we're looking at therapy that it's not that I'm the privileged person that's holding all the answers, and if you just paid me enough and came enough times, I would give it to you and, and that you don't really know what's best for you.

I can tell you how you should have your relationships and how you should act. I think, you know, for me and for other therapists that I know that are doing the work, we really do see that people have their own inner wisdom and their own. Guides to, um, what could work best for them. And that's a difference.

That's a shift in how Psychotherapy's done.

[00:14:15] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Big shift. I think if the listeners don't know, so, you know, the fields of psychoanalysis, of always presuming that the therapist has way more knowledge than the client can see into all of their unconscious blah, blah, blah. Right. That, that is a big shift.

And I think for me, I'm curious about the systemic realities to all this. You know, you talked about the world that we're living in now and that is something that came through my dissertation research, you know, the correlation between relationship anarchist and high levels of educational privilege, masters doctorates.

Right. So I think that there is a, a, there's obviously a connection here to the level of, um. Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? The more that you have that space to devote to more complex theoretical, you know, philosophical topics as well as relational skills, we're seeing these shifts towards new types of relating.

And so it makes me really think about the systems that we live under and the ways that these systems are preventing us from more expansive, relating.

[00:15:15] Dr. Tammy: Well, I think it's working both ways. Like I think if you are working all the time because you don't have the privilege of household help or multiple partners or you know.

It, it can be exhausting to think about, wait, when am I gonna have time to think about finding another partner? Or when am I gonna have time to think about being in an open relationship? Like that's exhausting. I really, it's a privilege to have that time and that space to do that. On the other hand, if you're working all the time and you're exhausted, what a better way to spread out the, the, the, uh, responsibilities than have multiple partners that can do multiple things for you.

And I think we saw that a lot in the pandemic. Mm-hmm. That one person, you know, can't just be the one that forges for toilet paper and homeschools the kid. And you know, like it helps to have a bunch of different people that are that the skillset.

[00:16:11] Dr. Nicole: Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And I think that's where the frame shift of wanting another partner versus acknowledging that we all have multiple relationships, I think can be really profound.

'cause we all already have. Multiple relationships. Mm-hmm. Most of us do not have sex with more than one person in this current cultural context in White Western America, because we both know there are other cultures that have practiced different relational ways. And in hist history there's been different practices.

Right. In our current cultural context, all of us have multiple relationships, but many of us don't have sex with more than one person. And so I find that shift to be really profound. Right. To realize that we all already love multiple people. We all already are in deep relation with multiple people,

[00:17:04] Dr. Tammy: and I think a lot more people are having sex with more than one person.

Yes. They're not honest about it. Right. So all the people that say that they're monogamous, you know, a lot of them, I call them like pretend monogamy.

[00:17:18] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:19] Dr. Tammy: Um, you know, to. Say that you're traditionally monogamous and you wanna hold on to that description and those values, and at the same time, to be in an affair or to be having sex with more than one person isn't representative of what really it, it's not a fair representative of what's happening in the, in, not in this country anyway.

Right? So even though we say, well, most people are monogamous and they're traditional and they're not open, and not everyone would describe themselves as open, not everyone would describe themselves as having multiple partners. Even people that clearly I might say, oh, you are definitely polyamorous. They might say, no, we just have friends with that we have sex with on the weekends.

Like it's not, we'd never call ourselves polyamorous. Like it really is, I think, a generational thing as well. And it depends on where you live in the country. And as you and I were saying, it's um, you know, there's a religious connotation for people and. And for some it's just scary. You know? It could be really scary and threatening to come out and say, well, yeah, I do have multiple partners.

[00:18:25] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I know you've been part of some of the infidelity research, right? With Ashley Madison. That's someone I just recorded with 90 million users. Right. So I think, yeah, I, I really struggled to find research on infidelity when I was doing my dissertation. It was really hard to get accurate data on that.

And I think, you know, for the listener that makes sense. Who wants to say yes? I've cheated on my significant other in the past, so I'm, I'm curious. Yeah. What have you been seeing as a researcher?

[00:18:57] Dr. Tammy: Yeah. Well, most people. Can't get really good research on, you can't get good numbers on how many people are cheating because cheating is based on dishonesty, right?

So people are dishonest to the researchers. Um, men tend to brag more and women tend to downplay it because it's still dangerous. And so the threat is also contingent on what we even mean by cheating. You know, what does it mean to have an affair to cheat? Or, you know, is it, it really is dependent on your monogamy agreement.

Like that continuum of monogamy for some people fantasizing about somebody else's slippery slope or looking at pornography and masturbating. For other people, it's like. Unless I'm in love with someone else, I'll let you know. You know? So it's hard even to find out how many people are cheating because everyone defines it differently now with technology, it's, it's hard, it's hard to know if sending a picture of yourself in a bathing suit on social media or liking it, it's when someone else does.

Is that problematic? Um, but you were saying the research that I did with Ashley Madison, they gave me, um, profiles. Mm. And I was able to interact with people, and I didn't, it was kind of like being outside the, instead of swimming around with the fish. But I did have a profile as a man and a profile as a woman.

I also had a profile as a gay woman, but no one answered me. Oh. So that's not a great way to shop for relationships. But, um, when I was. The male and I gave very little information about who I was. I was like six feet tall. I was blonde. I think my, my name was Tom or something. And you know, I was kind of middle aged.

The women that responded to me sent me, uh, pictures of themselves in bathing suit tops, in lingerie, in kinky outfits, um, boob shots. And all of the women said, I just wanna have sex with you after I put the kids on the bus. I don't need to see you ever again. Please don't tell me about your problems. You have a wife for that.

I don't care and don't complain. And I don't need a relationship. I just want hot sex. And when I was a woman. The men sent me texts saying, I really want a partner. Like I want a parallel relationship to my spouse who's ignoring me, and I wanna be able to text you every day and I kind of wanna fall in love and I don't want you to be sleeping with a bunch of other people, by the way.

And are you gonna be available for that? And I so that, and I got that from everyone. Yeah. So this is really flipping the script on what everyone thinks. It's not true that men want sex and women want love. It's actually right now the opposite. And I mean, I have a lot of theories on route that, but it really, I'm not the only one that found that like other people who've done research, um, particularly in this fish bowl, have found the same thing.

Yeah. Well,

[00:22:05] Dr. Nicole: I'm curious about your theories about that, because when. I hear that. I think about yeah, the years of societal repression for women and the ways that we have been, yeah. So told that we only want one person forever to quote unquote, based on evolutionary theory. The listeners can't even see how like, like, you know, restricted.

I'm with my body right now, um, based on quote unquote evolutionary theory that we need someone to, you know, we're going through this big evolutionary process of having a baby. And so we need this like person to keep us safe, right? Um, and so. We've been told that narrative and told that narrative. And also, we have so many traditionally women, right?

Again, are socialized very relationally. And so we have lots of loving relationships because generally when women get together, we talk about our lives and other things. And then generally when men get together, right, it's like sports or these sorts of activities, and they're not as much deep relational.

Um, connecting, generally speaking. I know we have exceptions and I love the exceptions, right? But, um, men are needing so much more emotional connection than they're ever getting in their relational worlds. And so it makes sense. We see how often men put all of that emotional labor onto women, right? And so if they only have one partner, it makes sense that they would be craving that in a way that women are wanting, you know, the, the novelty and the play and the liberation from the restriction.

That's kind of how I see that, and I'm so, so curious, like your perspective on that data.

[00:23:31] Dr. Tammy: Well, I think the data. Is skewed around evolutionary theories. It's just not true. Like, thank you. Yes. Um, you know, if women really needed a male partner to keep them safe, then if you just thought about that for more than a hot second, you would realize, well, more partners would keep me safer.

Thank you. Thank you. Yes. I mean, I would have, if my partner gets sick, I'm, I'm screwed. Right. So I should have a lot of people waiting in the wings, just in case. If we're really talking about safety and evolution, I'm gonna live a long time. You know, we used to be, when I was bored with them, I was dead. So now I'm gonna like outlive a whole bunch of 'em.

I better stack them up. Yes. And also there's new, there's new research that's a. Women get bored much quicker with sex and marriage than men do. And men, heterosexual men will continue to have sex and women will either stop or seek out alternatives. So it just doesn't work for us as long as it does for men.

And that's just statistically speaking. And the last thing I wanna say is about this frigging fruit fly. Shit that's not true. Yep.

[00:24:50] Dr. Nicole: The research. Yeah.

[00:24:51] Dr. Tammy: Yeah. This research that says that, you know, men have to spread their seeds and to propagate the species well, that's based on a 1940s research project with fruit flies.

That was never, um, it was never redone to prove if it was true or not. It's never done on humans or even animals. So it is not true. And actually females in most, um, primate. Groups will, you know, pick out a monkey and drag 'em out into the jungle, have hot monkey sex, and then bring 'em back and take another monkey.

Like we are much more likely to have multiple partners to ensure the propagation of the species. The birds will, you know, go out and sleep with multiple partners so that they have a variety of eggs that will live, but they might be emotionally monogamous with their goose husband. But, um, we have a lot of like really messed up myths that are not based on anything.

True. I would, um, recommend that listeners read, um, Wednesday Martin's book. Yes. Yes. Yes. It's really, she really excited of, lays it out really well and like, challenges all the research and, and you know, just says, look, women are actually pretty darn sexual, so let's not repress them.

[00:26:05] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. That is another book that I completely gobbled up, right?

Like candy? Yes, yes, yes. I think, you know, there's almost a meta-level conversation I wanna have with you here. I, I appreciate the way, when you name that research, you name it as such a clear fact and the absurdity of the evolutionary research. Because as someone who was doing her dissertation, I'll just name for you, going through my school, the amount of professors that looked at me like I was absurd for doing the things that I was doing and quoted lots of quote unquote research at me.

Right? And so this whole time, my voice, which is a lot of what I studied in relational feminist theory, is how the voice can be restricted. I always talk about this on the podcast with the listeners of the way that, you know, women's voices used to be like this because that's how restricted we were in our bodies.

And so your voice, when you name that, like this is very clear, right? I, my voice has been scared to name this research and to talk about this because of how many times I've been shot down. You know, this podcast has been such a. Space for me to find my voice because I meet with experts like you who can be like, yes, Nicole.

Yes. And so every time I have these moments, it makes me get louder. But it's a part of everything that we're talking about that me, that I'm scared to name research that I am finding for my dissertation. 'cause my professors in a field CR created by men are telling me that I'm wrong. You know?

[00:27:26] Dr. Tammy: Yeah. The research is really limited by gender.

Sex. It's not, it's not diverse enough. We don't have enough cultural diversity. I mean, if you have listeners that are studying to be sex therapists or sexologists or therapists at all, we need more voices. We need more diversity. We need more women. Hmm.

[00:27:48] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely, absolutely. To rewrite the narrative. And so, you know, as someone who came from purity culture, I know there are more restrictive religions than what I came from, but from someone who came from that, the first time that I had sex, I was sobbing.

Mm-hmm. It was with a loving person, but I was sobbing on the floor because I had, you know, a purity ring. And I still wear it because I love the reminder of that journey. Uh, so I have it on now, but uh, I just remember sobbing on the floor and thinking no one is ever gonna want me because I've had sex and I've ruined myself.

And it was one of the deepest cries I've ever had had in my life. Right. And so that is a part of what we're talking about with all these cultural narratives, wherever someone's coming from, right? Because I know there are more restrictive religions than even I came from. And there are people who grew up in more hippie communes that were a different world, right?

So wherever you're at in that journey, there's a whole psychological process to unpack. The first time I had sex with two people at the same time, I felt like a whore. It is so much internally, so much societal messages and every single journey that you, you know, you have dear listener, is gonna be unique.

Every single person is gonna have a meaning making journey of what it means to be a person that has sex with more than one person. And it is a mountain to climb for sure, in our current cultural context. Mm-hmm.

[00:29:11] Dr. Tammy: So much shame. Yeah. I feel so bad that shame around pleasure. You know, you're not allowed to move your body.

You can hire someone to move the bed, but you can't move your body like. Uh, you know, and it's mostly around women and shame, right? Like the shame quotient goes way up when you talk about women in masturbation versus men in masturbation, you know, guys have to do this. So that's just, that's just a guy, you know, women who sleep around are slut shamed.

You know, it's all about the pleasure. I, it's not really about sex, and I, I wanna make that clear what I mean, it's not so much putting tab A into slot B and whatever slot that happens to be, and whatever tab you have. Um. There really is a, a very old cultural prerogative around who gets to have pleasure in our westernized culture.

If you work really hard, then you can binge on pleasure on the weekend, but then you're gonna come back to real life, get back to work, maybe be hung over, maybe have, uh, less money. But so the idea is that pleasure's for the privileged, right? So that the top 1% can have. All the pleasure they can have all the helicopters, they can have all the sex, they can have the island full of sex and all the women and whatever they want.

And there's no, there's no consequences for them. There's no consent. 'cause they have earned somehow the pleasure of being in the 1%. But the rest of us, you know, if we're too exhausted, then we don't have time for pleasure. Mm-hmm. So, you know, we're gonna just work harder, work harder, put it in the bank.

Eventually you'll be able to take a vacation and maybe you can have sex with your partner or someone or yourself, or maybe you'll just lie on the beach and have pleasure. So it's really this idea that somehow we have to deserve it. And the second thing is that relationships are work, quote unquote. So if relationships are work, then that implies you have to work to get to the pleasure instead of the pleasure being the whole point.

[00:31:12] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yes, absolutely. And so you can see how then that plays into why people stay in relational dynamics and situations because like, I have to keep working on this. I have to keep working on, there's something wrong with me. I need to keep working on myself. And it's really interesting. I, you know. So often I hear research about the amount of time it takes for a woman to orgasm.

Right? And so like 20 to 30 minutes. And I don't wanna discredit any of that of like, you know, the time for the blood to go to the genitals and engorge the, you know, all of the beautiful organs that we have down there. Right. That is important. And also it's really fascinating to me, again, just lived experience here.

Novelty, right? I can have a partner that I've been with for years and it does take that amount of time and I'll explore some new sort of connection and I'll orgasm in five minutes. You know what I mean? Like the novelty of these. So it's just really interesting when people are like, it takes 30 minutes for women to orgasm.

And I love the amount of time that that is creating for us to not feel like we are doing something wrong. Like there's any sort of issue with us, but also at the same time, where's the like, asterisk of like, it can take that long. And also if you're having novel experiences, novel people you feel safe with, that also might be much faster.

Right? Like the, this part of the discussion here, I, anytime I read a book that's talking about, um, building long-term sexual satisfaction that doesn't take into the discussion of craving novelty of new experiences and new people and new opportunities, it feels like it's a, a crucial piece of the equation is missing and, and not giving enough for the, you know, informed consent for the person to know that there's just so much more at play here than just.

The one person that you're relating with,

[00:32:52] Dr. Tammy: well, you're talking about arousal and there's a difference between, between desire and arousal. Sure. Yeah. So, um, I think it, I think it's a yes and like I agree with you, and it works the same with desire. Like,

[00:33:06] Dr. Nicole: I,

[00:33:08] Dr. Tammy: I have women that say, you know, I have no desire. I have a desire issue, I have low libido, I have a hypo desire, I, you know, struggling.

I need a pill. And then they get divorced and they wanna sleep with everyone.

[00:33:20] Dr. Nicole: Exactly.

[00:33:23] Dr. Tammy: So desire and arousal, they're two separate things and they can definitely be affected by relationship one way or the other. You know, the other thing I wanna say is, 'cause you're clearly much younger than I'm, um, is that people in my generation, let's just say sometimes look at.

Younger people and say, well, you are just in an open relationship because you can't handle commitment and you have attachment issues. And so I, I just wanna hear from your perspective, like how do you respond to that? Like, I used to when I was young, I was like, uh, I'm just dating. I'm not ready to commit.

That was real. I would never have thought, oh, I'm an, I'm an open person. So tell me the difference for you. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I'm just fascinated by it.

[00:34:12] Dr. Nicole: Yes. And so your question is responding to the assumption that I don't wanna commit.

[00:34:18] Dr. Tammy: Yeah. That older people are looking at younger people saying, oh, these young people that they all wanna be polyamorous, they just don't know how to commit to a relationship.

And I'm like, I'm looking at 'em sideways going, well, I don't think that's true. And I think some people really do wanna be naturally non-monogamous and that's just who they are. And probably will be always like, how do you respond to that?

[00:34:39] Dr. Nicole: I guess maybe that is a part of my story is, you know, growing up in the lens that I did grow up in, I wanted to find my one and only person to have sex with for the rest of my life.

That was always my desire, the one that you know, and after failing that. Happily so today, but failing at that, right? I was in relationships for, you know, multiple years and experienced what is very commonly researched now is the, the drop off of desire in long-term relationships. And this is the beginning of my research because this is where I start reading, meeting in captivity by Esther Perel and going, wow, okay, so maybe part of the way that I can maintain a long-term connection and erotic connection, not just long-term connection because I can have a long-term relationship.

I loved that man that I was with for multiple years. I was struggling with the erotic desire to have sex with him. And that is a very unique thing and I think a lot of people resonate with that. And so for me, I thought, wow, okay, I'm gonna dive into everything that I can on sex one. 'cause I was also repressed from it so much.

So I started reading. Everything that I can, reading the research about how women's desire falls off, and I said, well, the novelty, the, the multiple people, these different experiences, the diversity, you know, when you have the, you know, you have, you love ice cream, but you also love a brownie, you know, you also love every other type of dessert, and you start to bring in more desire, you crave more of that person.

And so for me, my interest in non-monogamy was never to have sex with multiple people. It was to be able to like have long-term relationships with erotic desire. And I say that because I have cried so much in the unpacking of trying to be polyamorous because it is scary and everything you can probably imagine from my lens of consciousness to unpack all of that and still feel secure has been so difficult and challenging.

And so for me, it has been about the ability to maintain long-term relationships and not just long-term platonic loving connections, long-term erotic connections. And so that is truly the reason why I did all of this research was how can I still have these loving relationships where we can see each other grow through all the years of our life and hold hands as we walk through that experience and still wanna fuck each other.

And that is what I want. I'm still craving and building every single day. So it's, it's funny, that person who says that, it's like that's actually why I've cried so much and learned so much about my attachment, is to try and form these long-term relationships where we can still experience pleasure. And so I'll get to the end of my deathbed and write the memoir for them, you know, and so, and tell them what I did with all of these people that I love.

[00:37:21] Dr. Tammy: Yeah. That's beautiful. I really like that. And I like that response. I think, you know, the couple of generations now that, of kids who've grown up with parents who've gotten divorced,

[00:37:33] Dr. Nicole: right.

[00:37:34] Dr. Tammy: And or cheated on each other, and now can say, look, just 'cause I'm married, I'm not dead. Like I'm gonna be attracted to other people and maybe wanna have sex with them and maybe fall in love with them.

I just don't wanna lie about it. Right. I don't wanna lie about it. Don't wanna cheat, I don't wanna hide. You know, so the way that I describe it in my book is that it. Marriage and commitments based more on, not morality and shame if you do it wrong, but integrity. And that's not a moral issue. Integrity just means being able to integrate all the parts of yourself and say, this is who I am.

Like I, I can be whole and honest and transparent with you, and what a gift that is to bring into a relationship instead of out of shame, compartmentalizing and hiding and dismembering disintegrating those parts of myself.

[00:38:23] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I know I shared with you a little bit about my family and the listeners definitely knows.

And so what's been interesting about my positionality is to bounce all these ideas off of my mom, for example. Who's Mormon, right? Oh my God. Right. Because I'm going through research, I'm writing my dissertation, mom, you know, like, you, you gotta listen. You know, these are my thoughts, these are my theories, you know?

Um, and so it's interesting to bounce stuff off of her because, you know, she comes from a diff different paradigm based on her religious context. And so I would talk to her and she would say, yeah, but I could just never do it. I could never do that. I'm just not that person. Like, I'm not the person to have sex with multiple people.

And I wanna hear her and respect her sense of self, of who she sit, you know, believes herself to be. 'cause that is, you know, she's the expert on her lived experience. And also based on my positionality as a therapist and one that works within a systems lens, it's so crucial to understand that all of our consciousness is a reflection of our culture.

And so when I go back to watch the rom-coms from years past, yeah, the amount of, you know. Poor communication projection, just literally no communication. You know, you just see each other and everything unfolds. Right? We're coming from a society that has had such a script that has been written by the white patriarchal Christian narrative in America, and that is so deep within all of our identities.

And so like when I look at my mom saying that, I never wanna say to her, you're absolutely wrong. You don't know who you are. Right? Because that's, that's problematic. And also, how do you take this lens to say, wow, you are a product of your environment. And that is deep within you. As much as it's deep within me and it's in within our unconscious, that's the fun journey, right?

It's like, how do you hold that dance?

[00:40:12] Dr. Tammy: How did you do it with Mormon wives being on tv? I'll be honest, I did binge that whole show. I, I really liked it. But like, how do you, how do you, how did you do it? I'm just so curious about you. You seem so strong and independent.

[00:40:27] Dr. Nicole: I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah. I think, um.

It for me, it comes back to reading feminist texts and feeling really connected to these stories of women that were empowering and reading into research on that. And I was an English major, so I read a lot of stories and wrote, every single paper I wrote in my undergrad was like, look at the woman doing this.

Look at her doing that. Look at her doing this. And that sort of began my journey. And then getting into my doctorate, I was really passionate about feminist psychology. Right? And so that was always a lens that I sort of went through. And you know, Virginia Wolf's a room of one zone. That's why I have my own studio apartment.

I live by myself. Like I see a vision of what that means to have your own space, right? And so it's a mix of that deep lineage of women's voices. You know, I stand on the shoulders of giants who have come before me to create this space, right? And so that. Is a part of it, as well as the story I shared earlier about loving someone so deeply and eating myself alive for the fact that I didn't wanna have sex with them.

And, and feeling so torn up about that and that beginning this journey to get to where I'm at now and, and then lots of tears and community that held me through the expansion process of non-monogamy because Lord knows that was whoa. You know, like a journey that I'm still unpacking every day. It's not done, you know, beginner's mindset, very humbled by the journey.

Yeah.

[00:41:53] Dr. Tammy: No, that's great. I, I don't mean to in interview you, I'm just so curious. I love it. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.

[00:41:59] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I mean, I hope it feels like a conversation between you and I, you know, we can ask each other because I think that that's all, you know, the personal is the political, so the more personal we can get in this, the more political we are really hitting into.

[00:42:14] Dr. Tammy: Yeah, I like that you said that. I, the personal is the political I, um. You know, I was sharing with you, I just recently had like this trauma

[00:42:24] Dr. Nicole: right

[00:42:25] Dr. Tammy: where I was assaulted on the street and you know, I've been spouting off as a trauma therapist, as a, uh, relationship therapist for years and years about how connection heals trauma.

Connection heals trauma. Well, lemme tell you, connection really does heal trauma. Like, uh, you know, I had childhood trauma, but it's been a while. Aside from cultural trauma and what the whole world is going through and has gone through to be that directly punched in the face by trauma, literally and figuratively, the way that this did not become post-traumatic stress disorder or hasn't yet I'm giving it a yet, is because of the friends in my life.

[00:43:06] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:43:07] Dr. Tammy: Like the people that have reached out, the support, the friends, the lovers, the therapists, the legal system was supportive, which surprised the hell outta me.

[00:43:16] Dr. Nicole: Yeah,

[00:43:17] Dr. Tammy: yeah. You know, I really have felt held and supported. So it just makes so much sense that the answer for the world right now where that we're in this loneliness epidemic where people are feeling disconnected, they are feeling traumatized.

I mean, there's, I live in California, there's like climate trauma here. Right. You know, like I tried to go to the doctors today and they're like, oh yeah, that burned down. Sorry. Yeah. And. It makes so much sense that being connected, having more connection, not less, having more, not relying on one person to give you that because maybe they can't be there all the time or maybe they're not the right person for this, or maybe it's retraumatizing for them to have 16 people check in on you instead of one.

Like that really is healing and honest, honest honesty for, you know, someone who has done therapy for 35 years and been in therapy on and off, um, you know, I'm not just talking outta my ass anymore. Like I really, it's really true.

[00:44:22] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. Because the self is formed in relation, right? My, your concept of self, my concept, all of us we're formed by our relationships when we, you know, emote, we look to the person across from us to engage and say, yeah, you're on the right track.

Or Hey, what are you doing? Right? And so therefore our sense of self gets created. Right? When I was in purity culture, I was with other women who were getting married to pastors, right? This is how that was. Yeah. Straws. This is how that was reinforced. And so it's a whole reason why find podcasts and other sorts of books, right, to be so influential because these are moments where you can transform your relational community, right?

To be able to step into, see another consciousness like yours, an open monogamy, or write the podcast here it for all the listeners that have reached out to me that say, I live in rural Iowa and I have no one else who's doing this. How do I. That's why this podcast is here. Right? Here's a consciousness that you can tap into and listen and realize that you're not the only one doing that.

And you know, as I, I go deeper into this journey, you know, it was all about sex. And at this point I'm like, damn, I really just hope people can be touched. I really just hope people can be touched by multiple people. Mm-hmm. I remember. Go ahead. Yeah,

[00:45:39] Dr. Tammy: no, that would be lovely. I, I think it's time, attention, affection, and sex.

So I have an issue with time 'cause I'm so busy. Sure. But that is my, you know, re My Language of love is a resource. But you know, you need time to pay attention, to be affectionate, to have sex. Like those are resources that are really valuable. And imagine getting that from multiple people. And just so people understand what Open monogamy is.

It's where you have one primary partner or essential relationship, and then anything else you negotiate. So you can have a flexible and fluid relationship agreement. And that could be, that could be somewhat traditional or it could be wide open anarchy, like you said, but not total polyamorous anarchy in the way that no one else has the privilege of a partnership.

Because what I've found for my, um, my clients, they want more sexual fluidity or emotional fluidity or romantic fluidity, but they still want to come home to their partner. And it's interesting because now for people that are able to navigate that world, then they can transition to coming home to multiple partners.

But to know that you can open up and be flexible with one partner, knowing that that's a solid home base can heal a lot of attachment stuff. Sure. So then people tend to like even broaden it in different directions, either vertically or horizontally. I think it's fascinating. I really do think it's a sign of the times, like, of course we need a village.

How do you survive in this world on your own? I mean, we learned that, right? So, but I, I'm so glad that you're bringing up like people in the Midwest who might be isolated and feeling alone. You know, the internet is like the central nervous system of the planet. You know, if we didn't have that, we would be in big trouble.

And now I think there's some fear around. Internet because there's so much misinformation. And now the weaponization of information against us, like, delete all your stuff and don't put things in writing. And I think we have to just be cautious and at the same time know that this is where we find our people.

[00:48:01] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. Where you can be seen and that being the healing, right. We heal in relationships to be seen like you're set, like you're saying here, and to be in community. I, I love rewriting the evolutionary research of that, of like, of course I would need multiple people to take care of me.

Right. And so we're, we're writing a new narrative here and, and even in past histories, like we're in such a unique time where you can have so much connection with so many people. It is a completely new world. And when, yeah, it's not as formidable to have children based on the current context. Like I'm gonna have a lot of relational time.

If I'm not having kiddos, you know, where do I wanna put that relational time? Yeah. To people that can bring me pleasure. Right. And I remember, um, having this experience with an underground community that did sort of, um, tantric embodiment nights. And it was a really profound experience that I think has really sat with me as a sex researcher in that they, you know, offered to have you receive touch from multiple different people and you could undress to your comfort level and receive lots of different touch.

And I remember laying down, they had consent cards, they named what was okay, what was not okay. And that was blindfolded. And then this whole group of people that I didn't know, you know, like 20 different people came around me and touched me and like, you know, had feathers on me and fed me grapes and chocolate.

And it was such a moment to unlock something. I want more people to have that level of experience. Like whether you have sex with multiple people or not one day, hey, up to you, but gosh, to be able to be loved, cared for. Touched by multiple people was one of the most erotic experiences of my entire life.

And it was non genital focused, right? I was just feeling so much pleasure from the pure stimulation of so many people. And I have been able to take that into group sexual experiences where I've had multiple people who I love and feel safe with, who gave me expansive experiences with my genitals. And that was really built off of that experience of feeling safe enough with multiple people in my body.

But what sex or not like, there's just so much sensation and pleasure from having multiple people that it breaks my heart to know that some people will never, ever experience in their life. And this is not even, the first experience wasn't even sexual. It wasn't even sexual.

[00:50:22] Dr. Tammy: It sounds like it was very healing for you.

[00:50:24] Dr. Nicole: It was. I think that would be healing for lots of people.

[00:50:28] Dr. Tammy: See, I, I wanna be happy for you. That sounds horrible to me. Really? Yes. I don't, I I would not do that. And I know those workshops and I have led, like pujas and stuff. I, to me, I'm like this extroverted introvert. Mm-hmm. Like I love to be around other people and I get very energized.

Mm-hmm. But over the years, I've like grown into sort of this introverted person where my, um, who I share energy with is very, uh, restricted. So I'm very careful because I don't have a lot of it, you know, I have grown kids and I have a thousand patients and or clients and I have a ton of colleagues and I have friends and I have partners.

And like, I am very stingy now with my energy, not with my time or attention so much, but there is a certain energy exchange. Yes. With just that consent. And I want, you know, because I also do ketamine retreats with couples, I think maybe I'm more tuned into my own, like boundaries around my energy. And I think in the past I probably was looser with my boundaries and like let people access my energy.

And as I've gotten older and gotten more into psychedelics and therapy, I also realized how sensitive I am to that and to other people's energy. I don't think I ever really realized it. So I can see the like pleasure, like I did my dissertation on erotic recovery after infidelity.

[00:52:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:52:11] Dr. Tammy: And I remember like I went to all the dungeons in New York City.

True. And I interviewed people and dragged my husband at the time around and went to a lot of play parties and sex parties and stuff. And today my interactions are much more like intimate and connected with people that I know and care about and love. And I never would've said, oh, when I get older I'm gonna be polyamorous and I'm gonna like really sort of be not as playful, I guess.

I don't know. I sound so old and. Cranky. I'm saying it out loud. I'm like, oh my

[00:52:48] Dr. Nicole: God, she's so old. Like, what happened to her? I'm here for you. I'm here for you. I'm listening. I'm having my therapist right now. I'll hold the container. I got you.

[00:52:59] Dr. Tammy: I mean, I don't think I ever realized it until this moment of like how my boundaries have changed.

Because when you said that I had this like visceral reaction, oh, don't touch me with a feather, please. Um, um, yeah, it's really interesting and maybe it's just a like another phase in the journey. Sure. And. Certainly, I'm probably gonna go through another phase after having this trauma experience as well, which was not anyone in the community, by the way, sole stranger.

I'm really curious about how people negotiate their boundaries and their energy and their consent, and what I hear you saying is I want people to have really pleasurable experiences and not be ashamed like that. That's really powerful to me. Like to not be ashamed and to not be ashamed to say, no, I don't want that.

I think that's the reaction I'm having in myself. Like, should, should I be saying that? Like, is that okay if I don't wanna do that? Like there's a little bit of like, it's almost like I've come all the way around to the other side and now I'm shaming myself for being like too open and more open.

[00:54:07] Dr. Nicole: Right, right, right, right, right.

No is a full answer and embody the answer and embodied answer. Right. And,

[00:54:13] Dr. Tammy: and being picky about no, like I'm, I'm mostly a hell yes person in general about a lot of things, but as, uh, this, this life sort of, um, continues and maybe it's the current like political environment that I just don't feel as open a little bit.

[00:54:34] Dr. Nicole: And maybe it's, you know, from my experience, I don't go to that space anymore where I have that experience, right? And so you could ask me why. And I would say because energetically I don't feel aligned with that space and the people there, right? And I have noticed that I have been trying to cultivate that level of experience through my community of like developing mul multiple people that I love and care about and close with that I trust with that I could make that big of a circle.

Um. I love that. So I resonate with your discussion of energy, of trying to be intentional about who comes into my field and my space, because I do believe that all of that does contribute to your life, right? And so I, I agree. So I'm curious if that is maybe part of the journey too, is like, yeah, I, I did go to that event and then realize, well, I don't really like as many of these people, can I create this on my own?

So there is a number of people that I feel safe with right now that I can do something similar, but it's a smaller, much smaller group that I have been building for many years now at this point.

[00:55:32] Dr. Tammy: I love that you're doing that. It feels so empowered to me. I wish I had a bigger group that I could do it with, but I feel like you making that choice and saying, no, I still wanna do that, but I wanna pick the people, right?

That feels like, holy shit, you're a woman that is picking the people you wanna have pleasure with, and you're creating this pleasure community around yourself, surrounding yourself with people that are just dedicated to your pleasure. Oh my God, you're a goddess.

[00:55:59] Dr. Nicole: Thank you and theirs, right to give back.

That's the joy too, is to be able like to, to give to them, right? Like when we recently did this experience, we took turns right? As a group of four people and we took turns four people, much smaller, right? But we took turns. And so to be able to give back to those people that you love and care for, um, is also an immense part of the joy.

And I can imagine, like you were saying, like you're already, you're doing all this research, you're doing these couples retreats like you are finding pleasure in so many different areas where you're relating with lots of different people, right? So for you, like you're, you are getting that pleasure with lots of different people and it sounds like you're really have a very fulfilled research and personal life and that connection to it.

[00:56:40] Dr. Tammy: Maybe I have more than I thought I did. Maybe, you know, maybe as we're talking I'm like yeah, I have a lot of pleasure in my life. Maybe I, you know, it's funny 'cause I don't think we. Talk about or tolerate even joy very well. Like we don't bond with each other over our joy. Like, let me call you and tell you this great relationship I'm in.

We like call each other and say, oh, lemme tell you about this fight we had. Right? Oh, I can totally relate to that. We relate to each other's pain. It's almost like we don't wanna brag and, and I can feel myself doing it in my own head, like if I'm too happy, I'm like, oh, don't get too happy. You got to pay taxes.

Don't forget your taxes. Right. You know, like it's almost like I'm like bringing myself down and I'm sure that's from my own childhood, but there is this thing culturally of not being able to even tolerate joy for very long, to give yourself permission. And so you're describing creating this life for yourself where you're like, hell no.

I'm gonna tolerate joy and I'm gonna create it and I'm gonna be with people who wanna do it. And I love that.

[00:57:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I'm also in community mental health right now for my internship. Right. And so you know what that means as like a therapist and that's like bootcamp. Yeah. I guess for the listener who doesn't know, like I, you know, it's an interesting word that we use community mental health.

Right. What I, I'd be curious to learn more about the lineage of that, but what it often means is sort of underfunded Medicaid therapy with clients who are not able to pay or have insurance other than Medicaid. And so it's been interesting to, you know, go from a space where I was doing psychedelic assisted therapy, which is often out of pocket, right?

So there's a certain level of privilege to that. And then to be working in Medicaid and so just to hold the pleasure of my life while I'm also hearing my clients who are. You know, just worlds away in terms of socioeconomic situations, right? So it's a lot to hold all of that. So, and I know listeners will resonate with that as you look at the news, right?

And you see everything that is happening in the world and then you have a good moment, but you're holding that nuance and duality, plus everything you shared, right? And the, just, even as women here, there's so much about that, right? Where it's like, no, be quiet, don't talk too much about yourself. Don't, you don't wanna be full of yourself.

Absolutely not. And then male privilege just walks in through the room and shouts the answer, right? So, so I think all of that is at play for all of us right now.

[00:59:06] Dr. Tammy: God, you're so right. And it's like everything that's going on in the world you wanna stay on top of. And then you also have to just ignore it.

And then you're like, oh no, I'm ignoring it. So I better catch up. And then catching up is just so traumatic. So we are in a weird time. We are in a weird time. And I do think, you know. Alternative forming alternative pleasurable relationships in whatever style works for you. Bringing more love into your life, bringing more pleasure, bringing more partners.

I mean, I think that's the way we're gonna survive. Honest to God, I really do. They're gonna be female led. They're gonna be pleasure focused, they're gonna be multiple partners so that we, you know, maybe we need that financially. Like I, I really think that that's the future.

[00:59:52] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Community is medicine.

Exactly. Um, well Tammy, it has been such a joy. We've talked about so much today, and I wanna check in with you and see if there's anything else that you wanna share with the listeners. Otherwise I can guide us towards a closing question for today.

[01:00:10] Dr. Tammy: Well, I mean, I just wanna be clear that there is. You know, a continuum of monogamy here, like, and you know, the, so, 'cause sometimes the open people don't like that.

I use the word monogamy and the monogamy people don't like that. I use it open, but it really is, monogamy means being married to one person versus polygamy. We're really talking about commitment. So if you replace monogamy with commitment, like open commitment, what does that mean? You know, you, the important part is the communication about your commitment.

What is important to the two of you? I don't care. I can't decide for you. I don't think your church should, I don't think your synagogue should, I don't think the government should. I think the two of you or more need to, and you know, we renew our license every couple years. You should renew your monogamy agreement probably even more often.

Right? So it's not a one-time deal.

[01:01:02] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. And just because you step out into the water doesn't mean you have to swim. You can always come back onto the land, right? You can go through different periods of different, you know, styles of relating that feel authentic to you. You're not always committed to one type, right?

So lots of different people will go back and forth and try all different shapes and sizes, right? So it's so fluid. So I appreciate you naming that. Thank you. Yeah. Well, the last question that I ask every guest on the show, Tammy, is what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:01:35] Dr. Tammy: I wish that other people knew that, um, modern anarchy was more normal and that they could find your podcast and they could hear powerful feminine energy that you're bringing to the, to the world.

And so, you know, the, we, we can amplify that voice for each other in a collaborative way. I think. We need to know about each other and to be able to support each other in the world and get messages out there about, um, how to survive right now, you know, and to talk about pleasure and joy and relationship and connection, and that we're, we're here for each other.

You know, it's not about polarizing. These people are wrong. These people are right. You're doing it the wrong way. You're doing it the right way. Like even in the open community, if you don't call yourself the right thing, like you get canceled. Yes. Like, that's ridiculous. Let's just all get along. So listen to Nicole's podcast and send all your friends and go to my podcast, the Trouble With Sex, and we are here for you.

[01:02:37] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Thank you. I really appreciate that. I really appreciate your authenticity. The sharing of, you know, everything that happened with you recently and your vulnerability and that, and I think, yeah, authentic connections, relationships, these moments like this will really change the world. So thank you for joining us today.

Yeah. Yes. Thank you. For the listener who wants to find your book and all of your content, your podcast, where can they find you?

[01:03:04] Dr. Tammy: Um, you can go to dr tammy nelson.com, so it's D-R-T-A-M-M-Y-N-E-L-S-O-N. And actually, if they tell, tell me that you connected us, you know, like I heard you on, on Modern Anarchy, then I'm happy to send them a free ebook, sort of like how to open the initial conversation around your monogamy agreement.

Just let me know so you can contact me through the website. My books are there. They're on Amazon. The podcast is there. Stay in touch. I'd love to hear. Amazing. Yeah, such a joy.

[01:03:34] Dr. Nicole: I'll have all of that link to the show notes for us, so thank you. If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast, and head on over to modern anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode.

I wanna thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.