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111. The Ethical Argument Against Monogamy, and Becoming a Dominatrix with Mistress Sybil Fury

Nicole: Okay. Cool. Well then let's dive into it. If, if you're feeling good with it, I can start asking you questions. And then I know we talked a little bit about like navigating the, the personal, um, space of this, and I'm hoping that I could ask you like your journey into becoming a dom, if that is a part of your story that you're willing to share and feel comfortable with.

Mistress Sybil Furry: Mm-hmm. That first. Is that where we're gonna start?

Nicole: That's where I would like to start. I would love to hear about your journey into becoming a dom. Yeah. And where that started and all the steps that I'm sure are a part of that journey.

Mistress Sybil Furry: Yeah. So I think that I had a really, I. Bizarre entrance into this world, which I actually, I think is the true for everyone.

I've been doing interviews of Doms who've been in the scene for more than 20 years, and every single Dom story of how they got in is bizarre and completely different. I feel like it's a kind of world where. Your way in is always a little bit surreal. Mm.

Nicole: Divine. Dare I say it.

Mistress Sybil Furry: It feels divine. Yeah. Very much so.

Divine. So I was working as a labor organizer. Mm-hmm. And I was, I. Trying to apply to grad school and just was quite burnt out from the experience of being an organizer and didn't have the time to apply to grad school. And my then best friend and now wife was an artist and was kind of just giving jobs on Craigslist and found this job listing to beat up men for money.

And she was like, well, what if you just quit your job and we do this? And at the time I was in a monogamous long-term relationship with a man. I had never explored kink in my personal life, and I had actually just a few months before that she and I had both confessed that we had had a. Fantasies that were sort of non-normative for much of our lives.

But I was so terrified of those fantasies as someone who was raised Catholic, that I had never looked for porn, ever. I had never searched for it. I had never talked about it because I was so afraid of finding myself in that media. So she knew that I kind of had this inclination. Yeah, and she talked me into it because she's really good at talking people into doing things and.

It was the sketchiest fucking dungeon.

Nicole: Oh God. Of course. It's of course

Mistress Sybil Furry: dungeon is like a really generous term. I showed up to an Airbnb on the Upper East Side and it was like this man with this like flat room hat who just was like, all right, you wanna do this? Great. Cool. You over 18. Excellent. Uh, pick from this bag of duffel, bag of lingerie, and we're gonna take your picture.

And I was like, woo. I, I put on like a superhero mask because I thought that's what you were supposed to. I, I was like, I'm gonna, I'm not gonna show my face. And my wife actually came up with the name cause I had to find a name right there on the spot. And, She knew kind of my own interest in kind of Greek mythology, and she was like, well, you're a really perceptive person.

You're someone who seen a lot. Like what if you're like one of the CILs, like someone who sees, and this all happens within the first like 20 minutes of getting to the dungeon. And it's wild to think of how much I've grown into that name since. But yeah, so I, all of a sudden I'm mistress. I'm in this lingerie, and I remember.

This session request comes in and this woman who was sitting on the couch was in like sweatpants, like eating like seamless takeout, and I watched her get the request and just transform within a matter of 10 minutes to the most incredibly stunning person I've ever seen in my entire life. I mean, she's in these like eight inch pleasers, this like PVC outfit, and I was just, Beside myself.

My sexual awakening will happen soon.

Nicole: Please. I love this.

Mistress Sybil Furry: When I watched her go into the room with this man and I started to hear the sounds of her laughter and the impact and I, it was like something inside of me just snapped. I was like, I don't know where the fuck I am. I don't know how I ended up here.

I don't know what's happening, but this is, Right. And so everything kind of came out from that. Like I then kind of found out, I, I like started, I googled what BD s m was, I started looking up what kink was. I like, helped blog before I knew what it was. Wow. And that was wrong in those early experiences, um, that everyone turned out okay.

But yeah, it was this like, Really, you know, the cart was before the horse and I was trying to catch up to what was happening, but it was like the plan was already in motion. I was already gonna be a dom, and it was just that I had to get there.

Nicole: Wow. Which I can imagine is quite the journey. You said you came from a Catholic background. How do you think that played into all of that?

Mistress Sybil Furry: I mean, it's a huge part of it. I, it's a huge part of it. I think that so many people experience this and, you know, I, I, when I was younger, my, my early, now I understand my early kink memories.

I remember like I. Getting off on seeing the bruises on my classmates' knees during Lent, because I went to like one of those Catholic schools where you had to pray in front of all of the station to the cross, and as the Wow lent went on, you know you're doing it every single day for an hour. So you would get these bruises and I remember like, Like looking at the bruises, we were going from station to station and then looking at these like amazingly graphic images and like thinking, praying, and thinking about the nails and like, you know, and we would often be like instructed to really meditate on those like experiences of flesh.

That was huge in terms of like me, Experiencing that eroticism. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I actually, in college, I had kind of shied away from Catholicism after, you know, as I was kind of growing into myself in my teenage years, and then got into college and was really fortunate to be in a religion department.

Mm-hmm. Where everyone that was there was really interested in kind of feminine. Poetry and Femini and I started learning about Catholic mystical practices and was like, oh, there's a Catholic tradition that I am a part of that I resonate with. That takes the experiences of spirituality that I've had for my entire life and demonstrates.

So that's actually a part of what it means to feel faith and that is part of what it means to God. I was like reading about Angela a Fello, like slicing her tits open before I was. Knew that I was kinky.

Nicole: I don't know that story.

Mistress Sybil Furry: What is that story? Oh my god, Angela, I'm looking, see if I have her book in here.

I do. Angela Fellini is this amazing Christian mystic, and she would just have these like, Amazing visions. Like she couldn't go into, she was like banned for most churches because if she went, she would immediately strip herself of all of her clothes and just jump onto the cross and start like gyrating against it.

And everyone knew that it meant that she was like divine. But people were like, we can't have masks.

Nicole: I love this crossover though. I love this crossover.

Mistress Sybil Furry: And, you know, she would like bleed from her nipples and know that it was like her stigmata on her chest. Yeah. And was like meditating on visions of like god's, you know, like the, the wound from God as not just like, you know, on hi on Jesus's side, but also, also also like a life giving cunt.

Yeah. Like these were like, you know, this is fucking 13 hundreds, I think 12 hundreds. Wow. So I was like reading all of this in college, like I'm super vanilla. This is just homework.

Nicole: Right, right.

Mistress Sybil Furry: Yeah. So I think that was a huge part of the Catholic like thread.

Nicole: Totally. And I think that's what I find interesting too, is that when you were in that stage, there was maybe like a lack of awareness of what was going, I mean that that's something definitely I felt as someone.

Who is queer that went through the church and then would be like using, you know, queer content to masturbate. But I was like, of course I'm straight. Like this is just what I like the, just this lack of awareness of what I was doing and where like the implications for that. So I'm curious how, yeah, like you had these desires but it didn't register for you as kinky at that time in your life.

Mistress Sybil Furry: Yeah, I mean, and I think this is something I, as a dom, I feel really grateful for the fact that repression is on the surface. I mean, this is like, Freud tells us this, like we think that repression is deep down, repression is always right there. I think at one point he describes repression is like, you know, it's like a code that we just don't have the key for, but other people do.

And I think as a dom. A lot of my practice is really paying attention to the things that are just under the surface for someone and knowing that I can play with them. Mm-hmm. And this was part of mine, like this, this was right under the surface. It was so obvious to everyone that was around me. I'm mean, a very good friend of mine in college, a a gay male friend gifted me a Wartenberg wheel in my other junior year and he was like, just hold on to this.

I think you're gonna want this one.

Nicole: So everyone else felt it but you.

Mistress Sybil Furry: Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like now it feels really wonderful to be in the PO position where I can feel other people's secrets.

Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. And I guess it makes me so curious too, for like all of the people out there that think they're not kinky, that.

Might just not know.

Mistress Sybil Furry: Totally. I mean, like, this is just, it's about language. I mean, these are like, if you don't have the framework to understand this, how would you know? And, and you, you hear about this from a lot of people who the shift from. Of client experiences from the nineties to the odds. Mm-hmm. And the dawn of the internet, I mean, people who had these vague senses of things that were kind of non-normative about their sexual practices, suddenly for the first time ever are like, oh my God, there are people out there who shared this with me and they had the internet.

Completely transformed that. So yeah, I think that having that like link like language framework changes so much for people. And if you don't have that, how do you make sense of the ways in which you're just. Confusingly different. Right,

Nicole: right. Exactly. Right. And so being able to have the space to see that, the content, to see that, or the people to see that, I think that was a lot for me.

And I, even though I do extremely kinky things and play with my partners, I still have a hard time watching content in it. And I think that's part of like the disconnect from the. The intimacy of the person. Like I found for me, I'm able to do so much like dark play with someone that I know and trust out.

Like in that, and when I watch it, it feels disconnected. And so I don't enjoy it as much. Which makes me think too, like all the people who go to watch that sort of content and then say, oh, that's not for me. That's not for me. But it's also like maybe you haven't met a person in your life that you trust enough to go to that space with and have that connection with.

At least that's my lived experience. Right? And so it's just like, I think. People need someone who can show them this world.

Mistress Sybil Furry: Totally, totally. I think, and this is like a huge part of leather history. I mean, leather history was about, you know, finding someone who could be your guide into the scene. You know, and, and making those connections and those relationships and we can, you know, debate about the difficulties now of the fact that you can kind of enter the scene at anyone.

But I think ultimately, I think you're right, that even if you are just entering the scene as someone, eventually you need someone. Who can help you engage in that dialogue with yourself. Mm-hmm. I mean, like this is a relation between self and other with the self as one of the others.

Nicole: Yeah. Say more

Mistress Sybil Furry: So in order to experience yourself as other, you need a third to in play that dance with.

Hmm. And I think that is one of the real values of protons. That's something that we do. You know, I think there's so many parallels between what we do and like the psychoanalyst, because we are the other. Upon which someone can like project their shit and who can then like take those projections and do something with them, lead someone to somewhere.

Obviously there's so many ways this snap could happen in people's personal lives, and when it does happen, it's amazing. Mm-hmm. But for many people, that's just not possible. Hmm.

Nicole: Right, right, right. And so is that what you feel like you had in that experience when you first stepped into that room and. Or maybe not because did you not have that?

Who, who taught you? Or how did you then yeah. Step into

Mistress Sybil Furry: that? Yeah, that's an interesting question. I don't think that I was taught that at that moment. I, and I think it's also like as someone who came into the scene in the way that I did, I don't think that I'm someone who had like a, A mentor or like a guy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I think that I had moments. Like small moments throughout the years in which I've been taken in deeper and shown more. Yeah. By someone. I had an early dynamic with someone who was a submissive for many months, and I would say that our scenes were the first time when I was like, I.

Oh, this is a me. Your desire for me, your worship for me is showing me a version of myself that feels right, and it's a wild feeling to feel yourself reflected back via someone else, but know that what they're showing you is you, you know, it's like kind of a, a, a mind fuck. But that was the first time that happened and you know, it's happened continually.

I mean, I was just thinking actually today about the first time that I played with like a queer. Uh, masochist. Mm-hmm. And like the first time that I like hit her really? Mm-hmm. Hit her. I could feel like a shattering in me. Oh, there is a death of my desire to ruin someone that I, it actually, like, I remember it terrifying me in the moment and I had an impulse to like really pull back from the experience.

Yeah. Fortunately trusted myself and she trusted me and I trusted her that we were able to kind of go there. But that was, you know, only maybe two years ago. And that is an instance where I was taught more of myself. Mm-hmm. Through someone else. Totally.

Nicole: Which I think makes sense within like the psychological realm of theoretical thought that I study, it's always talking about how our sense of self is created in relation with other people.

Right? Like my identity is created through all the mirrors of relationships that I have, so it makes sense that. We would have a mirror who shows us a different part of ourselves that might not be activated. Maybe Wednesday I'm with my mom, right? Like that's a different space, a different part of myself that is not coming through compared to a relationship where this is being activated and brought out.

And so I think part of that then is like, yeah, how do you get access to those mirrors? Where is that space to be able to have that? Because I think about part of the people who are in more like monogamous dynamics and don't have space. With you, but I think about the people who are in those spaces too, who like want to explore these things and I want to help people in that space to be able to explore these things.

And they don't have access then within the restrictions of, of their commitments to be able to do that. And I think it gets tricky because then I'm like, how does some person step into this when this is the mirror that you've had? For your whole life. And I, and I, I would say you need a different mirror.

Mistress Sybil Furry: And I think the part of this that I've been thinking a lot about, I actually, I, I've been reading, I don't know if you've read Qui Telus Sexuality Beyond Consent. It was just, no, I'm gonna write it down, is an amazing book that completely unraveled me. I read it nonstop for five straight days, and it was an, an incredible, incredible book.

But it really helped me understand for the first time, The importance, like the specific importance of erotic containers. Mm. Because I think that's something that really. You know, I think that I was someone who wasn't a monogamous relationship before I started being a dom and remained in that relationship for several years into starting this work.

And I think one of the things that was the most surprising to me was how these sessions that I was having with Submissives, we were going places with each other that. It's different from just meeting someone on the street. It's different from like having coffee with somebody at a coffee shop. Like it's not just the, like the basement and the abjectness of the encounter.

It was like in this sexually charged place, they were discovering things of themselves and their desires that were completely, oftentimes, completely new to them and vice versa. I was having those same experiences and it was really surprising, especially when, you know, like, Not all clients are, are the people that you're normally attracted to.

And it was, uh, incredible to, you know, be in a room with someone that I would not be normally attracted to, who's the same age as my grandfather, um, who has different politics than I do, has different life experiences, and yet we have some kind of erotic exchange that allows us both to go somewhere with each other.

What I've come to understand is like, Yes, in your, if you're in a monogamous relationship, you can have friendships, you can have therapy relationships, you can have all different kinds of relationships. But if they are not erotically charged, you are missing some of the core dark corners of your psyche.

That's where shit happens. And if you only have one erotic mirror, I mean, there is so much. Of this part of you. I'm like gesturing to my heart that is not able to speak. And I think that if there is an ethical argument against monogamy, I think it's that. Ooh. Ooh, I fucking love it. You know,

Nicole: I fucking love that as a title.

My God. The ethical argument against monogamy. Hey man, I've sat with them multiple times on this podcast of like as, as someone who had stepped into this space of trying to figure out whether polyamory or monogamy was. For me and navigating that and even finding these partnerships where I felt like this person met all the boxes and yet they weren't willing to play or go into the spaces that I wanted to do, and like I wanted to be able to access these de different parts of myself that come out through different relationships, and that just being an inherent reality of the situation.

And so feeling like, yes, parts of my identity would be quite literally cut off by only having one. And I'm always conscious too, of like not wanting that to ever be an attack on monogamy, but also I feel like there is really an inherent reality to the fact that you have different parts of yourself activated through different relationships.

Sexually or not. Right. And I think we understand the non sexually part of having different friends that have different parts of you that activate different things, but it's like somehow we forgot because of multiple things that sexuality isn't that much different

Mistress Sybil Furry: or it's very different. It's, it's, I think it's extremely different.

Mm. I think it's a place where, The more and more can happen, right? Yeah. The more and more of experience can happen. It's the place where like those forces that try to bind you together are put on the chopping block. Mm. Like put up at risk. I think there's an obligation to like encourage the people that we love to like experience those aspects of themselves because what we experience in those erotic domains can translate into lasting changes for ourselves and our identities.

After the fact. I mean, this is why this, in this text sake to a lot about slave play mm-hmm. As like a, a reason for thinking about this. You know, thinking about the, like antebellum, he like sexual healing or, um, I think whatever it's called as like, You go to this space to have these erotic experiences that are challenging, that will bring up desires that you want, you didn't ask for.

I mean, this is a huge thing about eroticism. We feel desires that we did not choose, we did not check off a box that says, I want to get off by being like dominant. I wanna get off by sucking toes. Yeah. The, the erotic desires us. Yeah. And if we don't have any place to reckon with all the messiness of that, then we're holding repressed like hangups around that in our day-to-day life.

So I, I do think sexuality is different.

Nicole: Yeah. The repressed parts of ourselves and come out and maybe I. Problematic ways, right? Like that repression. Yeah. Say more. I feel like it's coming up for you. Something with that,

Mistress Sybil Furry: I mean, yeah, I feel like I see those, you know, I've been on, I've gone on a whole journey with this with clients because I've seen clients who want to play out.

Complicated experiences of misogyny for them. Yeah. And even those who are looking for kind of fan femdom fantasies, they're often really shrouded in sexualized and racialized fantasies, even if that isn't spoken. Yeah. And I. You know, as the person who was kind of the object of that, the other of that exchange Yeah.

Experience that person's kind of sexual drive and from, I think a few years when I first started, felt really complicated about it was like I'm learning that so many men have really fucked up understandings of women and people that are going about in their normal day-to-day lives are harboring these things that are quite violent.

And I think that's true. But I think that. When pro bombing is done right. Or when V D S M is done. Right. The tops and those experiences can create containers in which we can allow for people to have cathartic, cathartic release from those desires and then come out the other side different. Yeah. And then not bring that into their everyday life.

Yes. Where it could be silent to a whole different degree. Yes. Yeah. Yes, yes.

Nicole: Within a safe container with all of that, it's a space to be able to, dare I say, move through those emotions. Which is a lot of what psychology is teaching me to help people do, right, is to talk and to embrace those feelings and to move through them.

And so, you know, I asked the field of psychology, why do we not recognize this as an important way for us to embrace those feelings, those repressed, shameful, quote unquote right parts of ourselves? And to be able to have a safe container to play move through, embody. Those feelings.

Mistress Sybil Furry: Yeah. I mean, especially because, you know, talking is.

Important, but actually like dramatically experiencing them. I mean, totally different. I, yeah. I don't know if like, I, I'm really someone that I returned to a lot in thinking about this is, is Franz fan's work on the psychology. He was a psychoanalyst and activist from the early kind of 20th century, and while he was in Algeria working with Colonized peoples, um, developed this idea of social therapy where.

For people who couldn't, like, if you're a marginalized person, his conclusion is that you can't feel okay. In the normal, everyday world, it's not gonna feel good for you if you're a trans person, if you're a, you know, a woman, if you're a black person, if you're a disabled person, like, and you are, feel experiencing psychosis or you know, any kind of mental illness, he's like, what am I, what are you gonna integrate into a system that is.

Demanding your negation like that wants to destroy you. You have nowhere to go. And so his idea was like creating group therapy experiences in which people collectively imagined worlds in which they could exist in which their existence was possible. Ooh. And I think of B D S M scenes like that. Yeah. I think of bd s m scenes as opportunities for us to create worlds in which the kinds of identities and experiences of self that are otherwise impossible.

Become possible. Mm-hmm. For this, even if it's just temporary, even if it's just fleeting, but it still can provide relief and maybe it can show us the way to something. New, you know? Yeah. So I think that's kind of the ethical dimension of it.

Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious if you could fi uh, think of an example to give people a sort of story of what that sort of looks like.

Cuz I'm vibing with you, but I think a lot of people who have never engaged in this would be like, yeah, what are y'all talking about? Like, what is this transformation thing you're saying? Cuz I've never done this and I don't know, these people are crazy. Right. Like, give us some context. Yeah.

Mistress Sybil Furry: That is true.

Fair point. But I love it. I'll think of, I, the, the, the scene that comes to mind immediately is like, I had a scene once with a non-binary person who was like really early into their journey into transness and like trans experience and. Was like at a place of like really intense dysphoria around their genitor.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, or around their genitals and their, their sexual organs. Mm-hmm. And wanted to do a scene that was a ritual in experiencing their body differently. Yeah. So we did this scene where I, cause I love genital torture, it's like one of my favorite kinks. Yes. Um, give me any kind of genitals and I will fuck them up.

Yes. Um, And so we did this scene where I turned every single nook and cranny of their body into a cock and a pussy. Mm-hmm. I like bound their elbow together, for example, and like made the base of their elbow like a cock. And I like bit it, and I squeezed it and like scratched it. And then I flipped the elbow around the crease and like ate it out as if it were a pussy.

And so went from their head to their toe and helped them discover all of the different places in their body that could become their genitals of any kind that they wanted. Yeah. And experience the full range of pleasure and pain and sexuality from finding their genitals everywhere. Um, and so in this world that we created, their gender was all over their skin and.

You know, obviously they're gonna go back to a world in which they, you know, have to like, engage with their dysphoria and it's every day, and it's not like it's going to be cured in an instant, but I hope that that experience help them shift something in their journey to understanding that, right? Yes.

Nicole: A different relationship to their body in the space that they can take up.

And so much of this I'm hearing is like the power of play, right?

Mistress Sybil Furry: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I feel like. Play is like making up a world play is making our own rules. And the rules are real in play. The rules are very real. I'm like, how amazing that we get to make up our own world, you know? And a world in which we're like, if we don't like the world that we're in, in our every day, let's make a world in which it's different.

Yeah. And like how great that we can do it. And it's. Not just imaginative and generative, but also super sexy. Mm-hmm.

Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Mistress Sybil Furry: That is like the ultimate Yes. That is what we're striving for here. Yes.

Nicole: And I think so many people deserve to have that space to, to play in that and to have their sexuality be seen through that lens of, of adult play and imagination and being able to explore different parts of yourselves.

I think so many people, Don't see sexuality through that lens. They see it through a very scripted experience, which I mean so many people are. The reality is so many people are in pain about their sexuality and feeling like something's wrong with them because they're not enjoying the sex that they're having.

And I'm just like, there is so much more. So much more. Like that experience that you just talked about, right? Like when someone thinks about kink or BDSM or play, like, I don't think anyone would think. About that world. And I think part of that is pointing to our lack of creativity. Mm-hmm. When it comes to sexuality.

Mistress Sybil Furry: Totally. And I think this is even true for kink. I mean, I think that when I first started, you know, I was brought up to be like, all right, well, you know, you, you start the scene by like putting the collar on. They kneel on the ground, they kiss your right foot, they kiss your left foot, then you beat 'em for a little bit.

You like give 'em a little hand job, you like beat 'em a little more. Wham. Bam. Thank you, ma'am. And I feel that that is a s like. God, that's how we're gonna think about. I mean, the, like, the beauty of King, not the tools that we use or the activities that we engage in, though many of them have storied history and traditions.

And we should feel like reverence for the ways in which some of the practices that we've had have been passed on through generations. Um, I feel reverence when I see cans of, you know, think of cans of Crisco that have been, you know, looping up people's hands for decades. Right. Um, and. You know, the traditions of cane making and frogger making, but also like kink is like in the imagination.

It's like in what you can do with someone's body and the world, and if you're not having fun, then. Maybe you wasted your money on a flogger.

Nicole: Right, right. Yeah. One of my friends just this week got tied up, um, completely in war. It was a little surprise planned thing, but um, wore like, A Miley Cyrus White Tank and Calvin Klein, like sort of high wasted underwear and got tied up with a ball to do a wrecking ball scene.

Oh my God. With some like serious bondage, suspension and like was swinging and you know, completely tied and suspended and the music was playing in the space. And I was just like, this is hilarious. Like there's space to play with these things and have more capacity to have fun. With the imagination and what we can do with that.

Mm-hmm.

Mistress Sybil Furry: Mm-hmm.

Nicole: And I feel like that's so activism. I think that's how I see activism and part of this space is just like helping people to imagine more play that you can embark upon than like the scripts of what we're given. There is so much more space.

Mistress Sybil Furry: And imagine who else you can be. Like we have stories of who we are, but like, who else can you be?

You know, like, can you be someone who is submissive? Can you be someone who will push yourself? Can you be someone who can endure something? Can you, might you dare to experience your femininity or your masculinity? Like how can these spaces be places where we risk the experience of trying out different parts of ourselves that might feel like they're not safe or they're not right in our every day, and then see what happens, right?

I like know a dom who is like a, a masculine person and experiences like pleasure in feminizing themselves. You can play with it. And because it's play, there's not the same stakes.

Nicole: Right. Right, right. Exactly. So I ask you, Mr. Civil, as someone who would like to be a dom, right? As someone who feels very comfortable, easy in the submissive role, but would like to explore the other side, I think I have a hard time.

We could call it imposter syndrome, whatever we wanna call it, but like I have a hard time being able to embody that identity or to know what that would look like. I think part of that for me is like the social conditioning of the world that I was brought up in. Right. As someone who's been socialized as a woman and you know, particularly within a Christian dynamic, particularly someone who was watching the Notebook, Titanic and Taylor Swift, I mean like.

I know, I mean like I'm gonna be saved by this prince and you know, in a castle, which like, I love the romance, don't get me wrong, but also I think that that has resulted in a concept of self where like I don't see myself as a powerful dom that would come in and control that sort of energy, and it's something I want to explore, but also feel like, how does someone do that?

How does someone start to do that?

Mistress Sybil Furry: I think the first thing that I will say is, You can be waiting for a prince and be dominant. The trick that it took me a long time to learn, I think it takes everyone a long time to learn is not that you need to, that you need to embody sort of the message of feminine dominance or dominance at all that we get from the or that we see on the internet.

It is about finding what feels dominant for you. Mm. And what dominant look dominance looks like for you. I mean, There is incredible power in making someone go through quests and, you know, battle dragons and run around the kingdom while you're sitting pretty in your fucking castle. Like, are you kidding me?

Real in that scenario, probably not. The prince who's sludging through mud in the moat battling alligators. He's the symp in that situation. Mm-hmm. As far as I'm concerned. And so I think it's figuring out what are the narratives and ideals and stories that feel exciting for you, and then asking how dominance is working in those scenarios.

Mm. It's not about picking up a blogger and telling or telling your partner barking orders at your partner. It's really doing that internal in introspection. But I would also say this is like, my, might sound silly as advice, but I think it's. Helpful that when you start exploring dominance with a partner, Going as slow as you possibly can.

I think that especially if you're new, you feel afraid that you have to razzle and dazzle and you have to make them feel overwhelmed and you have to show them that you're in charge and you have to do all these things right at once. I mean, in my first sessions, I would. Go through my whole list of things that I was going to do, and then I would look at the clock and 10 minutes had passed and I would still spend 50 minutes on the clock, and I would be like, what on earth am I gonna do with this man for 50 more minutes?

Oh my God. And that taught me the value in slowing down. Mm. Because when you slow down, You actually give yourself permission to ask yourself this question that is forbidden for so much of us. Mm-hmm. Which is, what do I want in this moment? Yeah. What do I actually want to happen? Yeah. Now that my partner is kneeling or is sitting on the bed, their eyes are blindfolded, they're waiting, what do I feel like doing?

And I think once we dare to ask ourselves that question, a dominant voice will start to emerge. And it might take time and it might feel scary and it's gonna, it's gonna feel uncomfortable. But I think you're finding your dominance is learning to listen to that voice. Mm. And trust it. So yeah, the practical advice is to really.

Slow down and see what happens. See what impulses get generated in you. Right. And learning to trust yourself to follow them.

Nicole: Totally, totally, totally. And that's. Beautiful. And I love that idea. And the other half of me really struggles with it. Cuz I think that like, first stepping into more like, uh, kinky play relationships, people would ask like, yeah, what do you like?

And I always was like, I don't know. You know, like I have no idea. People would ask me and just without having experience in this, like I couldn't even fantasize or think or just like have any sort of grounding outside of the script of like pv, this, that, you know what I mean? And so like, When you're saying this, I'm like thinking to myself like, okay, like what, what do I want?

You know, like I'd love to be worshiped or to have people like, and so like, maybe it does start to come out in some ways that is different than what you're saying, but like, I still feel like I'm just grasping for that voice and, and struggling to hear where it's at or what it is. Cuz I just feel like there's no, no example.

No.

Mistress Sybil Furry: Ugh. I mean, I think that like, I'll say two things on this. One, I think that impulse of wanting to be worshiped is a place to start. Totally. Totally. It's extremely dominant to be like, yeah, I what I want from you and what I want you to do is worship me in this specific way and make me feel this way.

Right. Giving yourself the space to actually ask that of someone. Recognize that you want that and feel what it feels like to get it is you. Building the muscle of your dominance. Mm. And I think also something that, um, this is not my idea. This is Mistress Trinity's idea. She's someone like, she's a collaborator of mine and she once told me that she differentiates between not just tops and bottom, but active and passive as two energie that you can have.

So you can be an active top. For instance, I am a fan of hurling people into walls. Mm-hmm. I greatly enjoy, I would, I would say that I'm more of an active top. I don't love being worshiped a ton. And active bottoms are service bottoms. People who want to, you know, do work for you, do worship for you, versus a passive bottom who wants to be strapped up to the bed and just be taken on a journey.

Mm-hmm. You can also be in a passive top. Yeah. My wife, Mr. Cleo is. Passive top par excellence. Yeah. Tell me. In her sessions. And she just like lounges on the bed. Gorgeous cat. And just like demands someone do exactly what she wants them to do and the way that she holds space, like, Only three things will happen in like 45 minutes, but it's so riveting that it feels like everything is happening and you can feel how much her bottoms are obsessed with her as well.

They should be right, you know? And she can throw her whip two or three times, but knowing exactly when to do it and doing it only when she wants, and only giving as much as she wants and not giving anymore because she's a fucking princess, that's dominance. And so I think. Letting go of the myth that dominance has to be active.

Totally. Is a good first step and journey. Yeah. I think, and I'll say one more thing on this, who we are as we're discovering our dominant voice, it's a work in progress. Totally. We try to, maybe at the beginning it's like all that I can think that I wanna do is be worshiped great. But then maybe as it happens more and more, you're like, well, it might be kind of fun if I worshiped you while I was like, Pinching your nipples.

Sure. It would be fun to kind of hook my hand into your jaw and guide you to get places in my body. Totally. And you'll start to kind of evolve and shift and you will have different eras of your dominance and follow that trajectory. So, you know, if at first it doesn't feel like it's quite right, but it's something.

Follow that thread because something is better than nothing and it's leading you somewhere.

Nicole: Totally, totally. That face play is very, very fun and very like charged as something to do. You know, something that you don't get to do with most people, like just in our normal day to day of like grabbing someone's face and having that power with that.

Right. And I think like even the idea of being worshiped brings through these other concepts of like the. Quote unquote selfishness of just receiving, right? Like, I think this is where it gets tricky of like all the psychological layers that come out with that voice of like, yeah, I'd love to be worship, worshiped and have people at my feet, right?

And then my other, the other conditioning goes, well, that's selfish, Nicole. What are you giving back to them? And it's like, That is what I'm giving back to them. Right. Like and being able to like challenge those voices. I'm just, I'm curious how many people out in the world might have these thoughts like me and then have all the other conditioning that is just coming in the way that is getting in the way of hearing their inner dumb voice.

Mistress Sybil Furry: Yeah, a lot. I mean, I think this is the trick. This is the thing. If you have that impulse, The daring, but exciting, and I promise rewarding thing is what if I dare myself to have a safe, consensual negotiated experience in which I'm selfish? What happens if I dare to let myself go there? Yeah. This was actually a huge part of my.

It was not quite selfishness. That was my drama. But I am someone who is, you know, an organizer. I'm a, I'm very community minded. Yeah. I strong anarchist politics and my entire life. I also wanted everyone to just do what the fuck I tell them to do. Line. Yes. For my entire life, it was like there was these two wolves inside of me, right?

There was this community minded person who believed in collaboration. And this drive to be in control and exp and I would always suppress that part of me cause I thought that it was wrong and against my politics and. In these scenes was the first time that I dared to feel what it would be like to be someone who just was in fucking control.

Like, fuck, communism, anarchy. We're in a fascist state right now. What I say, and honestly, it was terrifying. But also extremely hot. Yeah. And it means much easier to collaborate in my everyday life because I have a container for those feelings now. They don't grip me anymore. And so if you allowed yourself to be like, just like indulgently selfish with someone, how would it make your, the rest of your life different?

How would it space for you to not be afraid of being selfish? Because you have a place where you can get that out. Yeah. Safely in a hot fucking way.

Nicole: Right. Right. And I think the crucial part of that is that you mentioned at first it felt terrifying. Yes. Can you speak to that? Because I think a lot of people will get to that point, look at the mountain and say, I'm not climbing that cuz I'm scared.

Mistress Sybil Furry: Yeah. I think I was like, I. The feeling is like, what will this mean for me? Oof. Yeah. What does it mean if I am a do, if I literally am ordering people these like naked men on their knees and like demanding that they do things and I'm getting off on it. Yeah. What happens if I leave a scene and I'm wet this?

What does it make me? And I think that. That's a really real fear. It makes sense. We are told that we can only be one person. This is like a myth that we've been taught. I held that fear. I moved past it in my case because I was on some fucking mission to figure out what was on the other side. And when I did, I found that it didn't change who I was.

Mm-hmm. It allowed me to come to peace with parts of myself. Mm-hmm. I think that if you feel that fear, it's like a good clue that there's something on the other side of it. Yeah.

Nicole: Yes, absolutely. And dare I say that divine intervention of like knowing that within yourself that there was something more that was just waiting to sprout.

Mistress Sybil Furry: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I think a lot of us feel that. I think if you're someone who's like interested in kink, it's probably because you feel there's something in you that is destined to sprout that hasn't sprouted yet. And if you feel afraid or if you feel nervous, or if it like gives you a tingly feeling, I think that that is not a sign to shy away from it.

That's a sign that like, It's like something is happening here, this is the path. Like keep going down that road because there's more to unpack and discover. Oh

Nicole: right. And like the difference between anxiety and excitement can be really, really small. Truly. Right? Like we're getting that activation in our body.

We're feeling that energy and being able to decipher the two I think can get really tricky cuz they get kind of close to one another. And also the. Uncomfortable nature of growth like that just is a part of the equation, right? And so there are many things we do in life that are uncomfortable leaps that we take and we grow through.

And so I think getting comfortable with that is part of the process of your own evolution. Wherever that takes you.

Mistress Sybil Furry: I mean also kink is about transgression. Mm-hmm. Like we have internalized very deeply that there is a certain normal order of the world that we are supposed to fall into. And there are like internal policing mechanisms that are there to stop us from trying to challenge that order.

Yeah. I mean, I have a lot of clients who are like, why aren't there more fem female doms? And I'm like, they're out there. They just haven't. Figured out how to move past those internal policing systems. They haven't figured out how to risk yet. Pushing past that message of what femininity is supposed to be, what womanhood is supposed to be, and dare to experience something else because of all of that indoctrination.

Yes. So if you're feeling that like anxiety, it's because you're getting somewhere close to where you're gonna start. Challenging systems of meaning, systems of power that you're not supposed to be challenging. Yes,

Nicole: yes. I'm like, bring me some Foucault, like I'm up here in it. Let's go. You know? And I'm always trying to tell people like, you wanna see the patriarchy?

Like look to your sex lives. There is no further place you need to look than to right there. And it is a bed for all of this. Because I think, you know, as someone who's a woman, like the amount of times that you know, I'm taught to say sorry for my existence, let alone to step into what we were talking about earlier of like, This is my fascist state and I'm gonna claim this space.

Like what? Like, you know, like I'm apologizing for just taking up space, let alone to actually take that up and control that. Like there is a lot of psychological control from the system that is deep, deep, deep in, you know, the barriers to get to that. And so like you're saying, when you start to break those down, you start asking questions.

I'm really good questions, dare I say.

Mistress Sybil Furry: But I also wanna say just to like, you know, make sure that I'm hitting both sides of this. Like it's just as risky to be like, I'm gonna be a woman in charge as to say I wanna be objectified as a full-on bimbo. Like that is also risky because we're not really supposed to desire that.

We're supposed to just be at discomforting. Peace with it. And so like fem bottoms or mask bottoms who like want to kind of indulge in the pleasure of patriarchy, the pleasure of objectification, just as risky, just as scary, and just as transformative. Ugh. I've loved it

Nicole: like, like just talk about taking off the cognitive brain and just being a piece of meat.

Like it

Mistress Sybil Furry: Yeah.

Nicole: It feels it's so hot.

Mistress Sybil Furry: Yeah, exactly. And you know, it feels like the first time that I like played with a bimbo, I was like, this feels wrong. It feels wrong to really objectify a woman. Yeah. But also then, Thank God we have spaces where we can feel these things that are wrong, and thank God that she can experience this in this hot negotiated container as opposed to some fucking Rando Tinder date who's not gonna appreciate the risks that she's taking, the surrender that she's going to, and the awareness that she has nearly as much as I will.

Absolutely.

Nicole: And all of that creates a crucially different container than experiencing objectification on the street through random catcalling. That does not feel good. I do not like that, right? I'm putting that into a container where someone honors the intensity of that sort of experience and what you're giving through being submissive in that creates a radically different container that leads to a radically different transformation.

Mistress Sybil Furry: A hundred percent. It's all about the container. Yes.

Nicole: Always. Always. And it's so funny, like I remember recording with Empress Wu like early on, like two years ago at the very beginning of this like podcasting journey and just being like so enamored. With them and just being like, this is amazing. And then following them on Instagram being like, I want to be this.

And it has been such a light, I would say like, you know, an angel in my life of some sorts of being like, there's someone who does this and I could be like this. I could be like this. I want to be able to be like that. Right. And like it's just so crucial to see those, like you were saying, these callings.

And ourselves that are, are gentle and light at that time and being able to start to explore and play with them and have the space to like live that out and the transformation that can come through that.

Mistress Sybil Furry: And I think that we live in a really exciting time where like, you know, leather has changed so much and it constantly changes, but I think we live in a really exciting time where people.

Like Woo. People like Mr. Zte, people like Cleo, people like Lucy Sweet Hill, people, you know these doms who are thinking Dia dynasty, who are thinking about kink in this like radically kind of transformative, ritualistic, yeah. Native artistic way. Yin Q. Obviously these are people who are really opening up, I think kink to a whole different.

Genre, um, of experience and doing it in ways that are like blatantly queer, even though it's also within the kind of commercial B D S M space, which I think is super exciting. Yeah, I think bringing in like a different aesthetic, you know, the classic FDO aesthetic is amazing, but I think they're opening up kink experiences to a different kind of aesthetic that is, Making it something that people who didn't identify with the like red, black dungeon, mean leather, you know, vibe.

Can now identify as something that they can see themselves in. Mm-hmm. Which, mm-hmm. Yeah. I feel really excited that I can be part of that generation and meeting with, and playing with a lot of those people. Yes,

Nicole: absolutely. Because that's activism, that's providing a. Example of how to show up in the world that we don't see otherwise.

And like you said, it creates an ability for someone like me, other sort of people, to look and be like, I could do that. Mm-hmm. I could definitely do that. Look, I like that. And until we see that person embodying that, sharing that with the world, we just. Don't even know that that's possible. Yeah. You just gave me so many good recommendations for the podcast.

I'm like, y'all, where you at? I need to talk to every one of you and we're gonna work on this together.

Mistress Sybil Furry: Ugh. Yeah. They're all amazing and I feel really like, I think one more note that I'll make about on that kind of group of people is that I feel like something that's really different about pros today is that we.

Invest a lot of time in turning these energies onto each other and ourselves. A lot of the people that I've mentioned are people that I've played with personally and who I know have asked for scenes from each other and other doms. You know, we, I think, take really seriously, uh, commitment to. You know, some of the things that I've talked about and that we've been talking about around kind of the political aspects of King, the transformational aspects, the capacity for it to unha, shatter the power of play and imagination.

And it's something that we create for ourselves. And like I'll tell you that having a bunch of doms creating a container for each other, nothing feels like it. That is magic. Yeah, that is power and. Yeah, I think it's a really, I think it feeds all of us and it ends up really informing all of our practices.

Nicole: That makes sense cuz we grow in relationships. Right. Yeah. So then you bring all that energy together and you grow together, and the co-creation of that sort of space sounds so empowering. Yeah.

Absolutely. And man, if I could gift that sort of experience to everyone. That's my goal. Like how do we get everyone to feel that level of embodiment in whatever capacity that is for each person and their own identity. But man, I want people to feel that level of sexual embodiment and power,

Mistress Sybil Furry: the next stimulus package from Biden to just be like, One session with a dominatrix for every,

Nicole: I think that that would change the game.

I really do. I really do think being able to like sit and be with someone who knows how to embody that space, it will bring out those parts of you that you didn't even know existed, that you didn't even know existed. Speaking from personal experience, right? Yeah. I wanna hold a little bit of space as we come towards the end of our time.

Do you feel like there was anything that maybe we didn't talk about that you really wanted to hit on today? Otherwise I have a closing question that I can bring our experience to.

Mistress Sybil Furry: Mm, no. I think we covered a lot of, we covered a lot. Yeah. Good, good.

Nicole: Well then the closing question I ask everyone on the podcast is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

Mistress Sybil Furry: Was more normal? Oh my God. Yeah.

Nicole: Easy question. Easy.

Mistress Sybil Furry: I'm conflicted about this question because on the one hand I'm like, So many kinks are normal and people don't think so. I mean, every single client that I have comes in and is like, I bet you've never heard this before, but I actually have a foot fe and I dunno, do, do, do that kinda thing.

And I'm like, brother, every man on this fucking planet has a foot fetish, but. I also wanna just advocate for the value in thinking that something is not normal. Because if we, on, once we understand that something is normal, I think it loses a little bit of its erotic, uh, distillation. So I actually think it's great when people don't realize how normal something is in terms of their erotic desires because it allows them to like indulge in the thrill of it a little bit more.

I think it would be a really sad world if kink was totally normalized. Mm-hmm. If like, it was just as basic as going to this, you know, buying a donut and having a cup of coffee. Mm-hmm. So I don't know if anything that I wish people knew was more normal. Yeah. I think we should protect the, uh, Marginality and transgression

of came.

Mm.

Nicole: Yeah. I feel like if I had like a box for like what it means to be an anarchist and the amount of people who I've given this question to and be like, well, I don't agree with normality. I'm like, I'm like, you're checking the boxes. There's many guests who have come in and been like, no, Nicole. And I'm like, that's right.

That's the right answer. Right. Um, but totally. Yeah. So, so like, Normalizing the non-normal nature o of the eroticism,

Mistress Sybil Furry: maybe anything normalizing the, the, the experience that of something foreign and scary being inside. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe that, yeah. Maybe it being something that we all, we all know that we all have.

Weird, bizarre, unspeakable, erotic, fixations and fantasies and desires. And just because we have them doesn't mean we are a horrible person. Yes. But what those are, I think should remain perverse weird and not normal. Yes,

Nicole: yes, yes, yes, yes. I love that. And then being able to play with that in a consensual container.

How transformative and transgressive. Yeah. Yes, yes. Uh, it was so lovely to chat with you and get to learn from your lived experience, and it was just such a pleasure to bounce off ideas with you.

Mistress Sybil Furry: Likewise. That was really fun. Yeah.

Nicole: Where would you wanna plug so that people can connect with you, find your stuff, and yeah, connect deeper with you?

Mistress Sybil Furry: So I, you can find me as at Sybil Fury on Instagram and at Sybil underscore Fury on Twitter. And then my website is www.sybilfury.com.

Nicole: Ooh. I'll have all of that linked below. So

Mistress Sybil Furry: amazing. Yeah. Thanks for coming on the show. Yeah, totally newly.

Nicole: If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast and head on over to.

To modern Anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I wanna thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.

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