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118. Dating A.I.? Exploring Intimacy Under Capitalism with Laura Mae Northrup

Laura: So, yeah, I'm ready. Let's do this.

Nicole: Okay. Let's do this. So the first question I would ask is, how would you introduce yourself?

Laura: Hmm. I mean, in this context, I guess I would introduce myself as a psychotherapist and somebody who's, uh, an advocate for survivors of sexual violence accessing healing. I, I'm not sure, you know, in a lot of contexts, I would just introduce myself as a human and kind of let people experience me.

Nicole: Totally. I think that's why I like the question. It's almost like a thematic, you know, sort of opportunity to see where the person takes that, right? They could take in lots of different directions. So I like to like throw it out there very blanket and see what happens. Each guest.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting question because so much of our lives are structured around creating these identities of ourselves that like, sort of allow us to survive capitalism.

So, you know, of course I'm like, okay, I don't wanna waste people's time. 'cause that's a precious, you know, a precious thing to people. Just answer with the thing that's the most aligned with that. But yeah, of course. Ultimately I'm a human being, being just like everyone listening. Exactly. Exactly.

Nicole: And yeah, I'd be curious, you know, thinking about today, what are you most passionate about?

What is that thing that's lighting your fire up and keeping you going?

Laura: I gotta pause. These are, these are deep questions starting off easy. Yeah. You know, I would say one of the things that I'm most sort of passionate about right now, I'm working on a new season to my, um, podcast. And so for people who aren't familiar with it, I made a podcast that's like a, it's almost more like an audio series that's, It was released as a podcast and then, um, that would kind of be considered season one.

So I'm making the second installment, but this was, I released it in 2019. Mm-hmm. So, you know, there's like a four year break in between. Sure. But it's about people using psychedelics and entheogens to heal sexual trauma, which is like very important thing to me, near and dear to my heart. But one of the things I've been thinking the most about lately in relation to healing and as I'm like writing this second installment, is just, um, how powerful community is and how much isolation we live in, and how that's a function of capitalism and kind of having this question, you know, I mean, I pray for capitalism to end, although I think when it, when we do transition out of it, which we will at some point, I think it'll probably be pretty brutal and not that great.

Mm. Uh, despite all the, you know, revolutionary fantasies we'd love to have. Mm-hmm. So, so one thing I think about though is just like, while we're here in this very disconnected, violent, exploitative system, how do we engage in meaningful community? Like, how do we engage in meaningful community when for a lot of us, we're so busy that most of our community is just our jobs and the little tiny bit we can have outside of that.

Yeah. And, you know, our jobs, our families, whatever. Just kind of, yeah. Like if I have to spend an hour today, I spend an hour on the phone with the, the internet company today. Like, I don't know. I'm just, I guess me and that person were connecting. It's like, how do we maintain connection, you know? Yeah, yeah,

Nicole: yeah.

Yeah. I feel like I wanna like set you up for a pitch to hit a home run in asking, well, Laura, how has capitalism messed up our ability to be in community? What, what are you meaning by that?

Laura: Yeah. I mean, I guess for people who, who are, where that's like maybe a newer concept. Mm-hmm. You know, capitalism, one of the.

Components that goes into a capitalist landscape is that the worker is able to be removed from their communities so they're able to like go to a factory or, you know, go to go to a place where the work is. And we evolved doing our, you know, work in our communities, say people weren't moving, you know, across a country in order to work at this point.

Now even, you know, with remote work, people are like, it's this really exciting, luxurious lifestyle to like be a digital nomad. But you know, when you talk to people who do that, a lot of them are actually really lonely. Yeah. Because there's something about relationship to place and ongoing relationship to community, not just sort of community you just made that year that's really powerful.

Mm-hmm. And meaningful to human beings. So yeah. Capitalism, you know, one of the main components is that we can, we're, we're fungible. We can be moved from location to location in order to extract resources from one location or make it to a factory in another location. And that means that we are not that connected.

We often move away from, and it's a blessing and a curse for a lot of people. It's exciting to move to another place. But the other thing about capitalism is that it just consumes, um, so much of our time, so much of our time goes into work or goes into, you know, I just actually watched this person give a really funny meme the other day about she was complaining about doing, um, those things where like, you're gonna log into your bank and then they give you a code and then you have to enter an access code mm-hmm.

To like, get to your bank. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And she was saying how, you know, if I, this is like I'm wasting my life doing this. She's a person who talks about death. And it's true, but you know that it is a waste of time at the same time that we have to do it. But sometimes I think about why am I entering this access code?

It's because we live in capitalism and I have to protect this money because I have something that I don't want other people to take from me. And then other people that part of, you know, how they're surviving in the world is that they need, and they might be taking from somebody else because they don't necessarily, you know, have that thing.

And there's this dynamic where we spend so much time protecting resources because we live in a society that doesn't share resources where we want it to be the case that like some people can be very, very rich and other people are destitute. And I mean, I don't think we all want that. I think a lot of us are just kind of forced into it.

Mm-hmm. But so, so much of our time is spent working or like protecting our assets, you know, like even when you make an insurance claim, I mean, all these things just take so much time out of your life. It's like, okay, well. Like why? Why is this the life that we're living? If we were living lives where we were sharing more this, this actually wouldn't really be, I wouldn't need to spend all this time doing this.

Right. Which is like a fantasy. Like we're not, not saying, oh, and then we can just suddenly do that, but more just sort of observing, like this is part of living in the system. Mm-hmm.

Nicole: And that the system capitalizes off of our lack of awareness of that, right. Our lack of awareness of community and connection, you know, those relational skills.

We should all, I would say, be taught as a value in our society. I think coming from the therapy lens, I'm always thinking about that. How so many of these skills I think everyone should know, but when you spend your whole life having to work a nine to five or even more multiple jobs to be able to survive under this system, where's the time to learn those skills and to be in community to use them?

It's not helpful for you to have those because then you'd be not wanting to maybe do it.

Laura: Yeah. Well, you know, and another thing I think about is like, so another big, uh, I'm assuming people who listen to your show are like a little bit, maybe have done some study about capitalism, but one of the, I'll just say this in case people haven't, one of the big, uh, sort of, um, tragedies or arguments, uh, that people bring up is the loss of common space.

Mm. So the loss of shared. Communal space in public that you don't have to pay to access. And I think that's a lot. It's like if you want to, you know, get together with friends or enjoy some time with people, um, in public, you have to pay to enter a place to do it. And then spaces where you don't have to pay like a park or things like that.

You know, I live in Oakland, in the Bay Area and. People often don't wanna go into spaces like that because there are many people who are houseless who live in those spaces. Mm-hmm. But you know, why do they live in those spaces? Because capitalism is so incredibly exploitative and, and I understand like you know, that there are many people who are living that are houseless, that are really, really, really struggling.

And I understand that that is hard for people to interact with. Maybe somebody who has like, is having a mental health crisis though I also think, you know, there's another layer to not wanting to be in space with people who are houseless. That's about not wanting to see that thing that reminds us of not just like suffering in the world, but also of what we're trying to, to work so hard to not have to suffer through.

There's such a, a, especially on the West Coast, there's such an intense conversation going on right now about houselessness and, um, people are so disdain, like there's so much contempt and disdain for people who don't have homes. But in a sense, there's, I really see that as such a, like, pushing away that potential because people don't wanna face that.

That is a lot of people who are houseless or people who, you know, ha maybe had some serious medical thing happen, um, or are living through generational poverty, whatever, and this is the way the society's treating them. And that could happen to any of us in, in, you know, in the wrong conditions. Mm-hmm. Um, so there's a lot of not wanting to look at it for, for that reason, et cetera.

Lots of reasons. Anyway, going back to my original point, common space where you don't have to pay to access it and it feels like the, you know, safe and like the people who are in that space are well, is really difficult to, to access. Yeah. And.

Nicole: What does that mean? That like we don't have spaces land earth that we can just access without having money to pay for that.

Laura: I mean, what does it mean? I don't know. I, I, I think it means that we become extremely disconnected from space, but also that we are, our lives are very, um, very constructed around engaging in capitalism. Yeah.

Nicole: Yeah. I was watching a documentary on climate change, um, I think it was called The Last of Eden. I don't know, I'll have to put that in the show notes.

But it was talking about how in Alaska they were selling off large chunks of land for, to sell the wood and the timber and all of that. And it, it just is an interesting question of like, who has the rights? To sell that land. That has large effects on all of our experience with capitalism. So when you start talking about like free space, I just think about, it's just, it's weird to think about the reality that we don't have spaces that where we can just go without having to pay for that and that other people can sell off those pieces without our

Laura: control.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, land privatization is not good. So much power to some with so little power to others in or, and is, I mean, it's not good. Capitalism's not good. I know.

Nicole: And when you say capitalism, what do you mean by capitalism? Because I think that sometimes when we throw that word out and we're always critiquing it, there's not enough nuance to what that means.

And so each listener is gonna interpret that in their own way of what you're really trying to hit at. So I'd be curious if we could unfold that word too more.

Laura: Yeah. I'm using that word to mean a system in which there is an A value placed on increasing capital that has a disregard for the quality of the life of the people who are being exploited in order to CRE increase that capital.

Mm-hmm. So essentially, I. Workers' wellbeing. I mean, as long as a worker is alive and functioning, they are useful, but their comfort can not be important. Even their health in a lot of ways can not be important. Obviously, you know, wanting to keep, like there's a, there's a need to keep people alive so they can keep working, but there are many, many conditions people work in that are really bad for their health.

And this is so that people who are benefiting from capitalism can make increasingly larger profits. So not even just like, let's make the same thing as, you know, each year let's just sort of basically like, let's have the resources to live our life, but we have to actually have more and, and access and hoard wealth.

So that's essentially like how I'm talking about capitalism. I mean, many more complex layers around it, but Yeah.

Nicole: Right. That's it. Right? And I think that some people hear that and think that we're trying to come after people's money and that we're trying to destroy that when I think there's a nuance to the level of conversation about capital, right?

The people at the very top. And how much space there is between that and the average person.

Laura: Yeah. You know, and when people are kind of like, yeah, but you know, whatever, I don't wanna have to give up what I have. Yes. So one thing is it's people at the very, very top that really would have to give up something.

Something that they're never gonna use anyways. Like people have the top, have more money than they could spend in their own lifetime. Um, unless they were like, I'm gonna buy a, I don't know, a glass of water for a billion dollars. But even then, even then, even then you're like, could you still get rid of all of it?

Or will you actually make that much money that faster, that that transaction is actually meaningless? Yeah. But you know, the other thing I would say is like, I do think there's a lot of wealth hoarding that can happen below the, the billionaire level. Right? I mean, I, I know a lot of people are kind of like, yeah, you know, it's not millionaires that are really the problem and I'm not gonna say that any particular amount of money is or isn't the problem.

It, I think the problem is the system itself and Yeah. And I also think a lot of people are really entrenched in the fantasy that they will someday have that money. I mean, especially in the us you know, where we're speaking from. Like there's such an, um, an emphasis on not sort of taxing the rich or forcing the rich to give up some of their funds because we fantasize we're gonna be that someday, even though it's incredibly unlikely that we will be.

Yeah. So I'm also just like, but how much money do you need? Like, there's many people that you know, I mean, I am going after your money. I am saying like, you probably shouldn't have that much money and other people need it. But what if you lived in a world where, uh, You didn't have to constantly fear that your money would be taken away.

I mean, that's what, yeah. A whole, a whole other aspect to being in a system like this is the fear of the loss of the money. Mm-hmm.

Nicole: So then it keeps you stuck in that cycle, right. Where you're like holding on.

Laura: Yeah. Like constantly trying to make more of it.

Nicole: Holding Yeah. Yes. And dreaming that this is gonna be some merit-based society, which is clearly not Right.

Where you could accumulate all of that and get out of this, like you said, so many people are stuck in that space. And I hear all this and I'm, I'm curious if you have an idea of what the future could be. I, I critique it. I get angry and then I'm like, well, what is the other option though?

Laura: I have no idea.

Yeah. Are people you'd say that, who are, well, you know, I think there are people who are coming up with alternative ways that a business could run and sort of alternatives to capitalism. And I am glad they're out there thinking about it and coming up with the ideas, because that's not my department.

Mm-hmm. I, I mean, I'm critical of it and I'm. Talk a lot about kind of how to survive within it, but I don't have, I feel like someone who actually understands business more would be able to speak business and politics at the level that they'd be able to kind of comment on, like, what would actually have to happen for this to be different.

Yeah. And I mean, communism, socialism is something that many people kind of point to and they're like, no, this, you know, and to, to date, we have not seen necessarily, um, some of the best rollouts of that. So tricky.

Nicole: Right. And whatever it is, I believe that it will be a collective uprising. It will have to be lots and lots of people coming together to see this and demanding fighting for a change.

Laura: Yeah, certainly. You know, I listened to this podcast a while ago that was, um, they were talking about how some people say that they are, uh, you know, revolutionaries and other people say that they're reformists and they were making the comment, you know, What actually happens or what actually sort of is, um, a politicized life is being whatever needs to happen right now.

Mm-hmm. So for example, when there's a mass movement towards like a zeitgeist toward revolution, stepping up and being a revolutionary, but to be, um, That, that these are really things that are outside of our individual control. So if we're living in a time where, you know, the, the masses are moving toward reform for some reason, that to be reformist is engaging in politics and to sit there and be like, I'm a revolutionary, while no one else wants to revolutionize anything, in a way it's sort of misattuned to the political needs.

And I don't think reform is necessarily wrong. Um, I'm not a person who know, I know this can be kind of an argument like revolution or reform. I don't think it's wrong at all. Um, I think there's just two really different, uh, ways of interacting, um, with larger systems and yeah, like you kind of need a mass movement in order to get something going, which

Nicole: I think highlighting the ways that it's keeping us disconnected and the pain, I think that's what's gonna wake people up to it.


Laura: I dunno what will wake people up? You know, this is an interesting question. Yeah. Because a lot of people in the psychedelics world, you know, think psychedelics are gonna save the world. Mm. They think like everybody's gonna take psychedelics and then everyone's gonna be like, we love the earth. But what we're actually seeing is that people take psychedelics and they're like, oh my god, I could, you know, make more millions of dollars or something, you know?

Mm-hmm. Like, people use it as like, you know, hacks for their business. Yeah. Um, so I don't know that seeing pain will wake people up. I don't know that psychedelics are gonna solve things. I do. I think it's interesting 'cause so I've been like critiquing capitalism for a long time. Mm-hmm. It's interesting how much that narrative has become more popular in mainstream post pandemic.

How so? Um, I think a lot of people in the pandemic, at least in the US, have gained a deeper understanding of what is happening in the world. I mean, I think people just kind of hit points where they. Where like, I am under a lot of stress and I hate my job, and I don't actually know that I want to keep doing whatever I'm doing, which is, you know, maybe beforehand was like, I'm gonna work 80 hours a week and crush this and get a promotion.

Ah, you know? So I do think there's more people critiquing capitalism. I think seeing some of the ways that the US government engaged with the pandemic and I kind of different, different aspects of that. Even like something as simple as student loan, uh, pause. Just like, wow, wait, this whole time, this whole time y'all could just pause the student loans.

And it's like the whole world's not falling apart and like, you know, and many, many people are in extreme debt, so, I do. I think that's been a big push. I, I'm shocked how many more people I just kind of hear talking about capitalism with much, much more nuance than previously.

Nicole: Yeah. Right. And even to think about the fact that we capitalize on our health.

I find that an interesting one. Like I can see a world of capitalizing on goods and other things, but the fact that we capitalize on our actual health and wellbeing, doesn't that just like strike? I guess I'm saying that as someone who has a very conservative family that goes down that way, and I recently visited them and had some conversations about this and that seemed to like strike nerves.

And I'm curious like through these different pockets of beliefs and viewpoints, like what are those common things about capitalism that we can sit and look at collectively and be like, that seems wrong. Maybe we shouldn't capitalize on our medical treatment and ability to live.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, I hear you that sometimes you have these conversations and people can be really defensive about it, and I don't understand that frame.

I don't understand why I. People are so attached to something that's harming them. I can understand it. You know, if I put on my like therapist ad, I understand, you know, but like on a just deep heart level, I'm like, but what if we just didn't have to pay, you know, go into mass medical debt for having a, an emergency.

Nicole: Totally. Which then maybe it is helpful to put on the therapist's hat, right? And think about it as like an abusive relationship in some ways, where this is what you've been taught is the reality of the world that you live in. And so you're conditioned to be like, yeah, this is how I live my life. My nervous system is attuned to this level of constant stress that if I go into the er, I might have medical bills so high that I could go bankrupt in this country, in this country.

Which is wild.

Laura: Yeah. And you know, I also think that we, I mean in the US like we are extremely attached to individualism. So there's a lot of, you know, I don't wanna be paying into a system that other people are abusing. Mm-hmm. The idea that, you know, if there was, um, Universal healthcare. Some people, some people would be going to the doctor too much.

Um, I mean, I know this is an argument that I've heard and people are like, I, you know, I don't wanna do that. We're really attached to our narratives of, of what we've been told is the truth. And like, is that really a problem in countries that have universal healthcare, that, you know, some people are going into the doctors too much.

Mm-hmm. I, I have not heard that. Yeah.

Nicole: Right. And I'm thinking about like the existential connection to the narrative of what America is and all these other ways that it is connected to the identity of the concept of America and these other sort of pieces. So you're right, it's connected also to like the narrative of this society, but I think it's an interesting time to be alive where we can see other countries doing it differently.

And once you start to hear of other countries having that, you almost kind of step back for a second and say, well, they haven't, and they're okay. Why don't we.

Laura: Yeah. And again, I don't understand, you know, like, I mean, I'm like, should I bring up Bernie Sanders? Interesting. Well, it's like an interesting kind of thing that happened in the US because here's a politician that's coming up and saying, you know, hey, like people deserve universal healthcare.

People deserve to not be, you know, living in destitute poverty, et cetera, et cetera. And many, many, many people who could have turned that vote, you know, didn't support him. Mm-hmm. And I, and many people who would've really benefited, like from more like, I guess I would say like more socialist structure, uh, would benefit, um, and then, uh, do not support it.

I think because of political ideology, I mean, it really speaks to how important beliefs are. I think I talk about that in my book. But yeah, like it really speaks to just like, you know, for example, This sort of masochistic, if we're gonna put on the therapist hat idea of, um, I don't want there to be universal healthcare because some people mm-hmm.

Aren't doing enough. Mm-hmm. Like, these people shouldn't get that. For example, I don't want immigrants getting this, or I don't want, you know, x, y, and Z group to get, to get this universal healthcare. And I'm just sitting there thinking, you're gonna give up your opportunity at having universal healthcare to stop other people from having it.

It's a very masochistic behavior, but that's a lot of, you know, that's a lot of how thinking, mass thinking in the US I think plays out. Mm-hmm.

Nicole: Mm-hmm. And the same thing with student loans. Uh, if, if I've paid all of my student loans off, then I'm absolutely not gonna sign off on you getting yours forgiven.

Laura: Yep. That's another argument. Yeah. Which it just seems ridiculous. Yeah. It's ridiculous.

Nicole: I know. It feels very like toddler, like, like right. When you really think about that, like, I did this, you have to do it too. Hmm.

Laura: Yeah. Like for sure. I do think that that's, uh, a very, uh, Astute observation about politics in this country.

Toddler. Like, I mean, that there is, there can be a lot of, you know, I'm mad so I'm gonna, you know, you guys can't do this or I don't know.

Nicole: Yeah. I know, I know. And I think it's interesting 'cause then the therapy space like directly starts to hit that. And I think that's a lot of what your book in many ways was speaking to of like, how do you form a healing practice under capitalism?

Laura: Yeah. How?

Nicole: Yeah, that's a great question. I don't, I mean, it's inevitable that you have to work within it to survive, right? So that's never, I mean, a list, I don't know, unless we do some sort of complete trading of goods and go back to, I don't know. I don't think there is any way to, I mean, to be a therapist, you're doing it under a license, which goes under a whole thing that is controlled in the system of capitalism.

I don't think there is a way to do that. At least Healing may be, might be different depending on the context.

Laura: I think it's really difficult to exit capitalism. Yeah. But I think, you know, to some degree people have, um, Many, many, many times ever tried to exit capitalism. And I think it's a very difficult project because I actually think it's, at this point, entirely impossible.

Mm-hmm. Even just the fact that land is, is privatized. Mm-hmm. Makes it so that it's, you know, you can't really exit capitalism. Um mm-hmm. Because if, let's say that you were like, okay, I'm gonna buy some land and then live on the land and then we're gonna live free of capitalism on the land, okay? You had to buy the land, right.

And you actually still have to pay, pay land tax. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, you still have to be having money. Right. Even if you could find a way to barter everything. So I think exiting capitalism is not an option at this moment. At least as an individual, obviously. Yeah. In a mass movement, you know, more likely.

But it's not an option. And so the question is just kind of like, how are you gonna live in it? Mm-hmm. How are you going to practice a kind of returning to your values at the same time that you're existing in an environment that's constantly pulling you away from them? I'm assuming that. I guess I should say my values because it's possible people are listening that love capitalism and don't wanna be pulled away from that.

Nicole: Yeah. But I, I really don't know who does love capitalism though. I really wanna push on that. I don't think anyone actually does. I think that when people are stressed out about getting healthcare, when people are stressed and working jobs that they're not passionate about or feeling lacking in their life because they're working a job that doesn't have meaning, I, I would stress that majority, the majority of people are not thriving in the same way that we can hold nuance for the fact that like men are equally suffering under patriarchy, whether they're aware of it or not.

I would say that we're all suffering under capitalism, whether we're aware of it or not.

Laura: Right. Yeah, for sure. And I think that's a whole other kind of, Yeah. Layer of conversation that I don't, I don't know, gets spoken to off often enough, um, about how much people who, um, have a lot of wealth are actually injured by the wealth.

And that's not to say that they're experiencing the same injuries that people who are experiencing poverty experience, because that's, it's very, very serious to not have money in a country or in a, like, in a global economy. Even that, uh, you know, requires it, but also, yeah, wealthy people are really injured by their wealth mm-hmm.

And injured by their wealth and just by living in a capitalist system.

Nicole: Right, right. I'm curious then, do you have any ideas for activism, for hope on what that looks like of how we would get towards a different world? Like the small little steps we can take and maybe community is one of them, like we started at the beginning of this conversation?

Laura: Yeah. You know, I don't feel that I don't have. Like, uh, that would be overstepping for me to say that I have like a bullet pointed bullet, bullet pointed plan that's the manifesto on, on how, how we're gonna transition outta capitalism because I do not. Um, but I do, uh, I do think a lot about how we're, how we can continue to survive and it, yeah.

Um, and I, and community is one of the big ones. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I mean, really just investing in our relationships, I think is one of the most important things we can invest in. Mm-hmm. You know, I think it's good to save for retirement and whatnot too, but I also think that investing in, um, the, just the strength of your connection with people is a.

It is a powerful life-giving act. And ultimately I think about things like, okay, you know, we all wanna save for retirement because we don't want to have, you know, kind of basically have to work until we're, you know, it's, you're suffering because your body is, is, um, not able to do the work anymore. And also there's sort of this fear of like, not getting enough medical care as you age.

Mm-hmm. Even if you have lots and lots and lots of money, you're still gonna die and you're still probably gonna suffer and be ill. I think that one of the things that is the most powerful in, in our suffering is can people be with you? Mm. Like, do you have relationships with people who can be with you even though you're suffering?

Yeah. Um, so that's one of the reasons I think community is really important. And I also think that's, it's a really important, you know, for people of all. Classes and you know, kind of all identities just to have people around us that support us and mm-hmm. Can sit with us and also can go with us through hard times.

Yeah. Like that's another thing is, you know, people talk a lot about how like when you get ill like really ill, that you lose people because there are some people who just can't. Face it. They can't look at your illness and say, wow, okay, I'm gonna stick with you through this. Yeah. Even though it reminds me of my own mortality, even though I'm worried about losing you, et cetera, et cetera.

Uh, even though you will have a lot of needs and need is very sort of like criminalized or looked down upon, um, in this country. And so, you know, building, not just building good relationships, but also like building our capacity to be in very real relationships, very intimate relationships. Ones where we say, okay, like you are ill, your body is changing, your needs are changing.

Mm-hmm. Uh, your life is dramatically changing. Can I stick with you through this? Mm-hmm. And I keep a relationship with you. Mm-hmm. And will you do the same for me? Absolutely.

Nicole: Instead of this sort of like extraction use relationship to be actually be there in the full reality of what it looks like to be there in relationship with another person.

Laura: Yeah. It's hard, you know, we're not great at intimacy. We're not great. Intimacy and money mediates a lot of our intimacies, so it's, I mean, I think that can be sort of, it makes it really difficult to develop healthy intimacy.

Nicole: Laura, tell me why we're not good at intimacy. Let's go there.

Laura: Well, you know what I, God, I love this conversation.

Yeah. You know, um, one of the reasons I think that we're not great at intimacy, and I, I talk about this a little bit in my book, is probably because we have so much control. Mm-hmm. Over intimate relationships and people with increasing levels of power and money have even more control. You know, in the most basic ways we have control.

Like you can actually just block somebody on social media. You can just say, I never wanna see or hear from you again. And I'm not saying you shouldn't, but it's interesting that somebody can make you upset and you can actually just do this thing where you cut them out of your life. Mm-hmm. And you're not gonna see them in the common area that you all go to.

Yeah. To, you know, you're not gonna sort of be forced to grow in community together. So you can do that because a lot of community is in spaces like social media, uh, or you know, online. So that's like the most basic way that I think a lot of people control relationship. Even just like the fact that you can quit your job and go get another job, which you should be able to, like, I'm not saying like, oh yeah, people should just stay at their jobs, but more so what I mean is that.

When we have so many options to cut off from people and we don't experience the intimacy of being interdependent, um, I actually think that it makes it so that we don't necessarily grow and also communities aren't responsible to themselves. So for example, let's say that you want to block someone or quit your job because somebody is treating you really poorly at your job.

I'm not saying you should stay there to be in the intimacy of somebody treating you poorly. I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is, wouldn't it be amazing if we lived in the communities where that person who's not treating you well and you would be held by the community to transform that dynamic instead of needing to exit the community and then this person just, I don't know, continues to be harmful to other people?

That's like a way that I think we don't necessarily grow intimacy, but then. You know, as you are sort of looking at people who have more and more wealth access, even just something as simple as you are sick and instead of your community supporting you, you're just on, you know, food delivery apps, on grocery delivery apps.

Kind of like getting, and I'm not saying that's wrong to do, like that's actually might be what you have to do. But there's this way, you know, even like contactless delivery mm-hmm. I know that that came about because of Covid, uh, because people don't wanna give each other illnesses. But isn't it interesting how much people just don't want to have any intimate interaction with the people who are serving them?

And Yeah, it's, I mean, all of this is, it's all kind of arenas where. You know, in the context of not wanting to interact with someone who's like, let's say, delivering food, I have a question of why. Is that because you're worried about getting sick and you're worried about covid or you're worried about them getting sick and covid?

Or is that because it's so uncomfortable to acknowledge exploitation? Because so many people who are, you know, doing this in the gig economy are being heavily exploited.

Nicole: Mm-hmm. And or you're from a younger generation who grew up with the internet at your fingertips and now it's uncomfortable, like quite literally uncomfortable to have any sort of conversation with a human, where it's like, I don't even wanna make a phone call.

Mm-hmm. I think that's what I hear a lot from people my age or even younger of like this, like, I don't call people, you call people, and then we continue to go into like deeper, deeper silos where it's like, yeah, I don't want to have someone drop off the food because what if I have to have a five second conversation with them?

I'm not prepared for that.

Laura: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Such a trip, which I'm, I mean, that's, I'm scared.

Nicole: What is our society gonna be like with that?

Laura: You know, one of the kind of fantasies of our, um, of, of like the American dream is like, you know, you, you own your house and you have all this sort of land. You're, you're, you're away from people or you somehow get to like, have a lot of control around you.

And I often say, I think it's really good for your mental health to have annoying neighbors. And I, I say this because it's like, yeah, like, you know, the annoying neighbor is this kind of this, this like, oh, I wanna get away from my annoying neighbor, or I wanna get away from my annoying coworker. Or, you know, just, there's sort of this idea generally speaking, like I wanna, I wanna be able to control who I'm around, even if they annoy me and annoy, I am not talking about somebody who's harming you or anything like that.

Right. But like, What an interesting thing to have to interact with people. Mm-hmm. Who you don't agree with them. You know, you have to listen to their needs. You have to think about their needs and yours. You have to advocate for your own needs as they're advocating for theirs. And they're not always in a, in agreement.

I mean, we're just not that good at that because we avoid it. At a lot of costs. And of course this is also, you know, I'm a white person and I wanna name that because this is a, I think this is like a very big issue for white people. I think that across race and class and like kind of cultural lines, this plays out really differently for people.

Yes. But definitely I think the mainstream narrative in the us, which would be like a white and wealthy narrative, is one that's of like, essentially isolate yourself and try and control your environments. You know, living your best life. Hashtag best life is not having to deal with anybody who annoys you.

Nicole: Right. Hyper individualism, which is also making me think, as you were talking about how this really amplifies cancel culture. Mm-hmm. You know, when you're in community with people and you have a transgression and there you can be held by community to grow in that together and realize the humanness. All of us in that and the fact that we all mess up, I don't wanna, and holding us accountable for that, whatever that looks like in a system that's different than what we have now.

Right? I'm dreaming of this other world, but in the world we have now, when we're so disconnected, we can absolutely cut block and then utterly destroy anybody who has any idea of a belief that you might not agree with. And it's scary how deep that is on the internet and how people's lives can be completely ruined by this level of energy that people are coming with to community and connection.

Laura: Yeah, it really the cancel the canceling. I, I'm like, is canceling still happening? I mean, I'm hearing yes. I'm also hearing a lot of like critique. You're like, yeah, it's, I'm hearing a lot of critique of, of cancel culture, uh, in the past several years. But yeah, you know, complicated thing. On the one hand, I have a background in transformative justice.

I, I am like, on the one hand, I'm like, let's, you know, let's all basically like talk it out and get people support and, and heal and, and stay in community together. Mm-hmm. And on the other hand, I'm like, you know what if that's not working, is there a reason? Actually, for example, people sometimes ask me what I think about callouts online.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Especially because a big thing that I get asked a lot about is, um, sexual violence that's in psychedelic space. So like when a provider, for example, is sexually harming people who they're working with, on the one hand I'm like, yeah, approach that person. You know, invite them into conversation, um, et cetera, et cetera.

And on the other hand, If that person is not going to to stop and not gonna be accountable and not going to engage. Yeah. I support a public callout and I support a public callout because I don't, I want other people to know not to work with that person. I wanna help people stay safe. You know, my primary interest isn't stopping harm.

And so I do think there's times where public callouts actually just make the most sense, even though it's not, you know, it's not the thing that I think is, um, necessarily the most healing. Like, I, you know, I've talked to many people who have been called out. Very few people are like, Hmm. When I got publicly called out, it totally helped me become accountable.

Usually people are pretty pissed, right? And they dig deeper into, you know, defending themselves. A lot of times those people who have been publicly called out did not listen in the first place. Uh, and they didn't listen after several attempts. So it's not that I think it's like a great tool, but I do think sometimes we just need to protect community.

Nicole: Right. And that reminds me of like group psychology theory, right? That when you know something's going on, when it can be voiced by the whole group, and you look around in a circle and you see everyone critiquing you with that same feedback, it gets pretty hard to think that you were in the right once.

You look out at multiple faces who are looking at you and giving you something else, right? Mm-hmm. And thinking about maybe that like group psychology on a larger scale with something like a call out to have that moment where enough people look at you and it hits you in a different way.

Laura: Yeah. You know, this is also kind of an interesting intersection with, um, capitalism because, um, there's this movie, hollow Water that is about a tribe, an Ojibwe tribe, that is doing, um, in Canada, that's doing, um, basically a version of restorative justice.

Okay. Where some people, and I, I highly recommend this film if people are interested. It's basically some people, um, in the tribe have sexually abused other people, and rather than, you know, reporting them and, and sending them away, the tribe gives them a certain amount of time that they have to basically like, come to accountability.

And it's a lot of time. Hmm. It's a lot of time. Like, I think it's maybe even, it's, it's more than a year, I think. And so they're doing their accountability work in this environment, you know, and, um, They managed to have a pretty profound restorative justice process. So it's a really beautiful film. I think it's really, it's really amazing and it's such a gift that they were willing to let that be seen publicly, um, so that people can, can watch it and learn from it.

But one of the things that's interesting about it, when we're out here, not in a tribe like that, saying, uh, you know, how do we do restorative justice and transformative justice? It's interesting to look at that case. It's a case where, There's such an important emphasis on being with the tribe. Mm-hmm.

Like not having to leave the tribe. Yeah. That there's a really big motivation to stay in the community and because of the way that capitalism impacts many people and that we are moving in and out of communities all the time, and we believe that, that's fine. You know, we're, we're, we're many people who are sort of entrenched in capitalism don't necessarily see the value in staying in the same community your whole life.

Not that I'm saying you should, but just that there could be a value in that. And so what that ends up meaning is that. It's a lot easier to kick someone out of a community. It's a lot easier to leave a community if you've done a bad thing. And it's easy, even for all the people around that, even people who didn't do the bad thing or didn't experience the bad thing, just feeling like this is too much and I don't wanna be a part of this community.

I mean, I've seen whole communities kind of fall apart. Mm-hmm. Um, because there's so much room to make new community. And why, why is that the case? Because of the way that capitalism has disconnected us from land-based, disconnected us from, from each other. So then we're just disposable at that point.

Yeah. I mean, disposable, interchangeable essentially. I think it really affects their ability to be accountable. Yeah. It affects our motivation to be accountable. Mm. Say more. I mean, I think just wanting to stay in the tribe. I. Is a reason to be accountable. And when I say that, I'm not speaking specifically about that movie, but just for anybody like wanting to stay in the group.

And, and for a lot of people staying in group is about survival. You know, that's another thing about sort of like privilege. Like some people do not have the privilege to recreate a new community somewhere else. Somewhere else. They do not have the means to move away or exit. Um, and so then, you know, being able to stay in the community and, and work things out in the community is a, um, is a really valuable skill.

And then other people have the means and the privilege to exit communities and start new ones and. And do. Mm-hmm. And without sort of necessarily, um, having that motivation to stay in community and, and, and change or be accountable. Right.

Nicole: Right. And then hence how intimacy becomes a sort of take, well, it's good and good for me and feels nice in the second that it doesn't, I'm no longer responsible 'cause there is another community over here, or there's another person I can find on this dating app or there's another thing over here.

Rather than staying in that the reality of what a human relationships, what community actually is.

Laura: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, of course I'm like, we're speaking about this in some ways from kind of a, an imaginary place and like, I don't know that, you know, how this would all play out if life was different, but I do, that is a, that is a thing.

I get the sense of that. Yeah. There's, in being so sort of movable, uh, and, uh, disconnected from each other that there's less motivation to really do the work. And then of course, we just also live in a society in the US that's just, we're very focused on not being responsible, you know, it's the foundation.

The foundation of this country is like, I don't wanna be responsible. I don't wanna be accountable. I don't wanna admit that, you know, a slave that enslaved people produced a lot of the wealth that this has made, this country so wealthy. You know, things like that. It's like, I don't wanna acknowledge that.

Not me personally, but we, we don't wanna acknowledge that we're, we're, we're a society that's very built on not being accountable.

Nicole: Yeah. And maybe once we acknowledge that, then we'll critique capitalism enough to realize that it started off on an unequal race. Yeah. Yeah. Like there, it was not fair for everybody.

Right. This whole idea of fair work your way up. But it's like the whole thing was started. Yeah.

Laura: I don't know why anyone thinks capitalism is fair and you have to work your way up. I feel like at this point we've gotten that one that is, well, I feel like Gen Z is really totally challenging. Yeah. That so much.

I feel like Gen Z is like, I'm like, I'm rooting. I feel like Gen Z is a me too, a generation where I'm like, I, I get the sense that they are just like, no, that's not how it works.

Nicole: Yes, yes. But then here's what I find interesting, right? Is the idea of like these relationships where you're take, take taking, and then something like AI comes out, right?

And you know, Snapchat gives you my AI and you have this little AI that talks to you and it gives you compliments and all these nice things. And my supervisor had mentioned, yeah, why would I wanna talk to a human with all their messiness and mood changes when I could just talk to my ai?

Laura: Yeah. Wow. I mean, Yeah, we'll see what's gonna happen with ai.

I'm curious. Yeah. You know, at some point things just have to get so bad that we will revolt.

Nicole: Yeah. Because I think when you're talking about intimacy and not wanting to stay in community with humans let's up, that let's up that to a community where I could be with AI instead, who's gonna tell me I look pretty and I look beautiful and my ideas are great every day.

Laura: Wow, that's so intense. AI could be your friend.

Nicole: It is. It already is. And I thought that was way far off until I literally saw Snapchat come in with my AI and, and then I was like, oh my God, it, it's right here. It's already right here. It's already happening. So I'm really curious what you're talking about give that 10 years with that being in the equation, I am curious if it's gonna get even worse or if we'll hit this tipping point where we come back, we go so far that we come back to it and are like, wow, we should maybe stay with humans.

Laura: Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, oh gosh. I'm just sitting here thinking like, well, how are we gonna do this? How are we gonna get people interacting? I don't know.

Nicole: I don't know. I know the future holds and it makes for quite an interesting space, don't you think?

Laura: How do you mean?

Nicole: Just all of this?

I think when people ask about like the future and what it's gonna look like, I think with when these sort of things are coming out, like, will I one day be providing therapy to someone who's dating ai? Just like the movie her, like, will that be my work one day?

Laura: Uh, yeah. It might be. It might be. Certainly. I have definitely encountered scenarios where it seems like people have really deep relationships online.

Yeah. And have never met people in real life or even seen them maybe just seen a photo, you know? Right. So, I mean, I think that's, we're definitely seeing that, but Wow. Yeah. Dating ai. That might be the case. Mm-hmm.

Nicole: Mm-hmm. And who am I to judge, right? Yeah. And who am I to judge what is right or wrong in the world?

I think I have a bias already against that of preferring human to human relationships. But I think that will be something that we'll have to unpack if that continues and you have, you know, in your pocket a, a relationship with ai and the fact that that's just gonna continue to be part of how we step up into this world and the younger generations that are gonna be living with that as a world that they step into.

Laura: Wow, I, you're blowing my mind right now. Yeah. I just, I didn't realize that was maybe a thing that could be, that that does No, it does sound like, yeah, I could see it being around the corner.

Nicole: You can send pictures to it. I've, I've tried it. I play around, like I sent pictures of me and my cat, and it's like, your cat's so cute.

Don't you love furry friends? And I'm like, yeah, I do. Yeah, exactly. So like, there you go. Like, I could be sending it pictures every day. And at that point it might even feel good to have someone who communicates and is positive. So then I start to think like, okay, like maybe this could be healthy in some way because it's teaching.

Like imagine the person who's always had a relationship that has been abusive, and that's their family structure that they come into. What if my AI becomes their only relationship where they receive positive feedback? I'm like, okay, maybe that, maybe that's good. Maybe we welcome that because then that is like a healthy correctional, like relational dynamic where they're receiving positive regard.

Laura: I don't know. Yeah, no, that's a really good point. I mean, yeah, I, and I'm with you on the, like, who am I to judge? And, you know, kind of not, not knowing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, if something allows people to engage in, you know, being empowered, engaged in their lives and protective and supportive of people and animals and plants and things around them.

I'm like, then, you know, so be it. But yeah, that'll be interesting how that plays out. I, I'm actually like, not following a lot, well, I follow a little bit on the AI stuff, but like, I'm not, for example, not like trying out all the apps. So I've like dabbled a tiny bit in the, what is it called? G g Chat. Chat, G B T, chat, chat, G b t, you know, a little bit and, and kind of in that, so, um, So this is like new to me.

I'm like, oh yeah, the technology's already there. Yeah. For us to have relationships with AI where that Yeah, you could be like dating ai.

Nicole: Totally. And then sex robots. Right. The second we can program that into a whole thing. Oh yeah. Right. And then oof, what about a future where maybe you could like, have relationships, kind of like, um, deep fakes.

What if you could have a relationship with someone who's famous? Interesting. That seems really plausible too, right? We have deep fakes of world where you can create videos and things like you could date. I don't know. I, wow. You know what? I hope it's beyond our lifetime. I hope that I am not a psychologist working through this, because that's like, now we're stepping into Black Mirror, right?

Where people can recreate their partners, other sorts of things and live with that. I mean, but it, it doesn't, honestly, it does not seem far off.

Laura: Yeah, no. Everything you're saying doesn't seem far off to me either. Like, I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah. It can chat with you, right? Yeah. You know, can there be a robot? Oh, okay.

Yeah. Like, could you make that a famous person? Okay. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

Nicole: yeah. Even editing the podcast, there's some softwares that I can use where, um, I can clear out what I said and then type in what I want it to say, and it will use my voice from the thing to recreate that and create my own voice.

Yeah, I know. So then I'm freaking out over here like, fuck, like I make a podcast. You make a podcast. What happens when someone takes our clip? Just goes to recreate and said, Laura said, and then it sounds exactly like your voice, my voice. Wow. I know. And that technology already exists. And I thought about that.

I was like, how are they protecting that? Where someone couldn't take my podcast that's available, download it, and then use it into that and change it already. And I don't think that there's gonna be.

Laura: I think it's, it's gonna be, I think it's going to be the case that it totally transforms how we relate to media because there was a time when a photograph meant the truth.

Yes. And you know,

Nicole: it's, yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. What is truth gonna be? That's been something I've been like thinking about. I was like, what is truth going to be? Because, go ahead.

Laura: Well, I'm wondering if this will be the thing that drives us to be more in person. Mm. I love that take. Yeah.

Talk to me. You know? 'cause it'll be like, I don't know what's real unless it's happening in front of me. Yeah. Damn. Wow.

Nicole: See, I find this more of a fun conversation than they've been like, Laura, tell me about sex and Psychedelics, please.

Laura: This is definitely, I, I mean, I love the kind of, uh, associations conversations where we're just kind of Yeah.

Rolling with it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I, I'm curious about also my mind works like that where I'm like, and then I can go back to what I said 20 minutes ago, but I am curious about that. Will we become so isolated and simultaneously things will become so unreal, essentially. So, so that we don't know what truth is that the only real thing is being in person potentially,

Nicole: as you were saying, that I was thinking about my experience growing up as a younger person with social media, like right in my pocket.

Right. And that like loving it, doing it. It's the whole thing. It's the whole thing. And then getting to this point where I'm like, I want off of it. I want done with it. You know? And a lot of people's taking that big step back from it. And I'm curious if Yeah. Something similar would happen in our large trajectory of like, yeah, getting so deep into it, really liking it and eventually completely pulling back and being like, yeah, that was maybe not for Betterment.

Laura: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It'll be interesting. Yeah. You know, I think about how in the late nineties there was like such a big push to stop watching tv. Mm-hmm. But TV was not good. TV was really, you know, a lot of bad storytelling, a lot of bad acting. Like TV had just become, I think, a thing that a lot of people weren't that interested in, and it wasn't novel.

Um, so there was such a big push. And truly everyone I knew, most people did not watch television. Many people did not have televisions in their homes, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. Fast forward like 15 years and television is in its prime. Mm-hmm. It's so good. It's so interesting. It's got all these different kinds of people.

Yeah. You know, like telling narratives and stories that you normally wouldn't hear. Um, I mean, I think I have read, I read an article not so long ago that we've hit peak television and peak television is mm-hmm. You know, kind of fading or whatever. But yeah. And the fact that you could have a computer, you know, people would sort of have, have these things that it wasn't like a huge device.

It was like something you could kind of put away. Or now they have, um, televisions that it goes on the wall and it, it looks like a photograph, like a picture. All the time. Interesting. And then you can, I wanna say it's made by Samsung and it's called like a picture TV or something. Huh? It literally looks like a picture frame.

So you could have like a gallery wall Yeah. Where you have lots of pictures and you wouldn't realize that one of them is a tv. Interesting. And then when you're ready to watch TV, you can watch. So, you know, and more so I started telling the story though, because there was this time where it's like, okay, people are like watching less and less TV and then, you know, capitalism response and now people are obsessed with tv.

So with the, the kind of social media and AI and stuff, I could definitely see us going through a cycle of, you know, becoming, I, I, I think a lot of people that I know are like a lot less interested at this point in, um, in social media. That could also be a generational thing and sort of where I'm at in my life.

But, um, Less interested. However, if that becomes a mass movement of being less interested, there will be, you know, there will be some kind of creation to bring people back into Totally. Sort of consuming our attention. Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Nicole: There'll be that poll somehow. Some way it will get us. Ugh. I don't wanna say it's all scary because, like you said, the Gen Z, I feel like I have so much hope.

I think that we'll continue to have conversations that I think hopefully inspire people to realize that man again and again. I am seeing that the importance of nuance, right? And letting go of black and white thinking. All these things have very nuanced approaches that we should be looking at these things.

It's not like AI is gonna ruin the world. It probably will bring a lot of great to the world. Oh yeah. But it's gonna have to be such a nuanced thing with lots of critical thinking about how this is gonna change intimacy relationships work, particularly there's, I mean, I'm not even, you know, within my own scope to start talking about how AI is gonna change capitalism.

But that's a huge one too, right? And all this is gonna take such a nuanced conversation of how we navigate it all.

Laura: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Nicole: I know. I was like, deep breath on that one. So as we come towards the end of our magical co-creation of a conversation, I'm curious if you had anything going into today that was on your heart that you wanted to talk about that maybe we didn't hit that you wanted to share with a listener.

Laura: I don't know that I do have anything like that. Mainly, I just wanna say I'm glad that you're having a, having a show where there's so many different intersections of conversation and that it feels like you're creating an environment where, um, everything can be talked about. Mm-hmm. Um, and that's, I think just again, In this capitalist landscape, there's so much emphasis on conversation being, you know, kind of like high value, really specific, really oriented toward a certain thing.

There are many things we cannot talk about. Then there are the things that we do, et cetera, et cetera. And to be able to be in an environment of sort of exploring complexity and, and all the different topics, you know, even just the idea of like an AI partner. Like the, both, the juxtaposition of that being on the one hand, like no isolation on the other hand, like, is this, could this potentially help you to experience healthier relationships if your AI partner is healthy interacting with you?

So really appreciating that aspect of this conversation in a space you're making.

Nicole: I appreciate that and you sharing that. It, uh, reminded me of, uh, I'm still in school, right? So like the ideas and the theories are all really fresh for me. Mm-hmm. Um, of existential therapy and like creating the space for the unfolding and the magic that can happen when you kind of take that step back to be present with someone and see where that goes.

Laura: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I know like what happens when instead of trying to control something or go to an outcome, we just experience it and allow it.

Nicole: I would say magic, magic, magic

Laura: or that is where magic happens.

Nicole: Totally. It is. And our inner healing wisdom and all the things that I, I trust, it's a conversation that needed to be happen.

Needed to happen. Right. And needed to be shared. And it will be something that will take on its own entity in its own way. Yeah. Yeah. As we close our time, I'll ask you, the one question I ask everyone is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal? You get to take that anywhere you want in any capacity.

Laura: This is gonna seem really basic, but I wish that people knew that it was normal to have needs. Hmm. There's a lot of ways that we talk about need, especially in the US, that sort of indicate that we think it's abnormal or wrong or a sin or criminal. Or, you know, too needy. Mm-hmm. And actually we are extremely needy.

We need a lot, and I, I wish more people could appreciate that, myself included. There's many, many, many times when I'm completely lose sight of that, just that mm-hmm. Other people having needs and myself having needs, it's just, it's normal. Yeah.

Nicole: Yeah. I'm thinking about that hyper individualistic society message that we get, especially in the West.

Right. And the reality that, dare I say, with confidence, we all need relationships and community of some sort. Whether that's more distant or super close, I would say pretty confidently that we all need relationships.

Laura: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I would even say we need a relationship with Earth and Yes.

You know, non, non, yes. Non-human kin, but, Many people would probably disagree with that, but I think it's a need.

Nicole: Absolutely. I'm right there with you. Uh, well it was a pleasure to have you on the show and co-create this conversation with you. Would you wanna plug people to your podcast, your work? Where can they find you?

Laura: Oh yeah. My podcast is called Inside Eyes. It's on every podcasting app and my book is called Radical Healer. Um, how to Build a Values-Driven Healing Practice in a Profit-Driven World. And it's also available pretty much anywhere that books are sold.

Nicole: Perfect. I'll have all of the links below. Thank you for coming onto the show today.

Laura: Yeah, thanks for having


Nicole: If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast and head on over to modern anarchy to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I wanna thank you for tuning in, and I will see you all next week.


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