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124. Play as Rebellion: Eco Sexuality, Kink Healing, and Somatic Connection with Elmo Painter

Nicole: So how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

Elmo: Hi, I'm Elmo Painter Reddington. I am a somatic therapist and relationship and empowerment coach. My specialty is people who feel like they don't fit into a box. My business is called Weird Light Coaching. I worked in clinical settings. I've been a therapist for since 2016, and I've worked in two different group practices since then that were both somatically based and they were both wonderful places to work.

I just, I have always, I. Kind of just needed to be on my own. And I started this business about a year ago, and it's really fun. I, I specialize in seeing folks who are lgbtqia plus, plus polyamorous folks, consensual and non-monogamy folks like my, that's the relationship coaching part is I specialize in coaching folks who are either opening their relationships or have been not consensually non-monogamous for a long time and are kind of like coming in, like running into some things.

I myself have been polyamorous for over 20 years, so I've got a lot, a lot, a lot of real life experience and learned experience coming into that. Same with kink and the B D SS M community. I've also been a part of the B D SS M community for over 20 years. People started calling me an elder a while, a couple years ago, and I was like, no.

But I was like, oh, it's been a generation since I've been doing this, so maybe, maybe,

Nicole: yeah. I'm not gonna lie, the thought was going through my head. I was like, yep, here it is. Hi.

Elmo: Oh,

Nicole: well, I'm very, very excited to talk to you then and, uh, how exciting. Congrats on a year of your practice. Thank you.

Elmo: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, uh, so essentially weirdos, anybody who's like, I'm a weirdo. I have artists, activists, and I myself am neurodivergent, so I love working with neurodivergent folks and just like bringing yourself back to your weirdness and letting it just Yeah.

Shine bright. That's my whole thing, is let your weird light shine bright so the other weirdos know where to find you. Aw,

Nicole: I love that. Yeah. That authenticity. Yeah, that I feel like always keeps speaking to people. Like that gentle knock at the door, and then you open it a little bit deeper and then deeper, and then you get into the space and it, I don't know, it feels good to me where I'm at in my life with listening to that little whisper.


Elmo: Mm-hmm.

Nicole: And I know we said we were gonna talk about, or at least start, who knows where we'll go, right? Yeah. But start with play as rebellion. Yeah. I'm curious what that means to you.

Elmo: Yeah. So I not think, no. Like there, there's so much. Burnout in our world. I mean, we're, we're working, some of us are working multiple jobs, you know, taking care of people, family members, community activists who are working their ass off against huge problems in the, you know, huge cultural problems.

And, you know, there, there's so much, like, there's so many really important things to do and they are very important. And I think we get into, and just like, you know, when we have chronic anxiety or things like that, we get that neurological wiring starts, those pathways start getting deeper and deeper. And that just starts being how we operate.

Play gets forgotten. Like, I think even outside of the, 'cause we all also have like a self-care to-do list, right? Like we all have to-do lists and sometimes the self-care to-do list is also kind of becomes a to-do list item of like, oh, I should meditate, I should like, I should do this. Yeah, I should do, you know, these shoulds start popping up and up and up and up.

Part of my somatic practice is helping people relocate their yes. Right? Like where in your body is that? Yes. Like when you think about the thing, like your self-care item, does it light you up in any way, shape, or form? Yeah. And, and, and if not, maybe that's not a self-care item. Maybe that's something that some, somebody told you you should do with your body or your time.

Or your energy. Mm-hmm. And maybe that doesn't work for you. Mm-hmm. Meditation not for everybody. It's not, you know, and there are lots of different kinds of meditation too. Like there are so many different kinds of meditation. Mm-hmm. And there can be something that, that lights you up. Or maybe movements, maybe, you know, movement, maybe dancing.

Maybe that's your meditation, maybe. You know, so maybe making art, maybe coloring, like there's so many, there's so many different ways of finding a little bit of play. Yeah, in yourself and yeah, kind of going against this, you know, capitalist, patriarchal expectation of work, work ethic, right? Like, oh, I have a good work ethic.

Like, okay, who told us that was something important to have? You know, so refining, play, play as rebellion just means. Finding pleasure in. Yeah. Whatever. Whether it's putting extra glitter on your face, whether it's mm-hmm. Painting a room bright pink, whether it's like going and dance, jogging. I used to like, I would, I would like, I was like, I wanna jog, but I also wanna dance.

So I just did this. Hell yeah. Ridiculous. Like, came up with this thing where I was just like, like dance as if I was in a musical around my neighborhood. And I was like, this is what I'm, this is where I'm at. I'm this person in your neighborhood, y'all. Yeah. Why not?

Nicole: Yeah, why not? It's like me. I've been following, um, some YouTubers that put like dance workouts.

Yeah. And I will like do that. And like even the word workout, I've been trying to let go of that and use the word movement. Yeah. Um, my dad was a bodybuilder and like was in that sort of range. So I like very much so grew up with like, you gotta take care of the body. You gotta do this, you gotta do this.

And I think at least now getting to the space where like running doesn't bring me joy. Working out in the gym does not bring me joy. Mm-hmm. Yoga brings me joy. Rock climbing my walks, you know, dance little things on YouTube, like how do we tune into those pieces instead of the shoulds, I should go run on this treadmill, you know?

Yeah. Or even all that, you know, just letting it go. And when you were talking about finding the Yes, I immediately thought it was like, oh, okay. The body. Right. Like how do you teach people to tune into the embodied? Yes, yes. That could probably be maybe a whole course, you know? Mm-hmm. Whole lifetime. Yeah, absolutely.

But I also think it's so crucial in terms of kind of like what you were saying earlier, like the weight. That we're carrying purely because of our access to the internet and awareness of issues and larger things that are going on. At least for me, sometimes that puts me, I feel like, into this like trauma response, right?

Mm-hmm. Of like flight, fight, freeze, fawn, you know, whatever. All of the, you know, like what do I do when I see all of this world going on? Yeah. And I think that it is so radical to not be in some sort of like Pollyanna, the world is super beautiful and everything's great, but to like recognize how much pain and problems and issues exist, and also how can stepping into our play and our joy be a part of how we counteract that Because we can't stay in the trauma response, right.

Elmo: That's what I say to my activist clients. There's this like, if you're not angry, you're not paying attention. Right. And I think that's such a toxic belief because you can be paying attention and take care of yourself, and the more we take care of ourselves, the longer we can stay in the movement. If you're burned out and you're hitting the floor, you're not helping the movement.

Mm-hmm. We've gotta take care of ourselves. But yeah, like finding those. Finding those spaces of play and bringing play into, and having dance protests and, you know, like there have been all these beautiful, beautiful like musical movements and artist movements and like making art and creating art and putting that out there and having that be your activism is also, it's, it can marry the two.

And you know, I love comedy. I love comedy. And there are a lot of standup comedians who are fucking preaching. Like, they're hilarious. Yes, they are. And they're, you know, they're bringing that, they're bringing change, they're changing people's minds and perspectives mm-hmm. On stuff. And like, you know, there are so many different ways of being an activist and you can make it playful.

Nicole: Yes, yes. And then I think that's like the long run, right? Like we have, if we're in some sort of war right, of like bringing more authenticity in the world and having more space to do that. Like, we have to think about what's gonna allow for the longevity of this. Situation. Yes. And it is not gonna be fighting and staying because like quite literally, our body can't stay in that right.

Space. Right. And thrive. Right. So like being able to acknowledge the ways that like joy needs to be present in this in a way that doesn't, like disavow the privilege of that experience. Right. I think that's the nuance where we're like, yeah, I must state and fight otherwise I'm not seeing it. But it's like the longevity of your work, some sort of like utilitarianism framework to this is not to be enraged the whole time.

Elmo: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Mm-hmm. And just how rebellious is it to be a queer person? Uh, you know, like any level of those, like intersectional sectionality of like a queer person, a person of color, a neurodivergent person, somebody with a, like any other disability who is happy and playing. Yes. And being like, you know what, I'm not falling for your work ethic.

Bullshit. You know, like these, uh, cultural ideas that. Lauded misery in, in all these different ways. And it's like, how, how about, no, how about I'm, you know, I'm gonna put on some this really fun outfit and go out. Yeah. And you know, like when I go to a protest, I do like a makeup. When I, I call it my game face, I'm like, this is my game face.

And I'd go, you know, I'd go, I go out, you know, like with a snap. Yeah. It's so, it's so important. So important. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Nicole: I love that. As you said that the game face, I'm thinking like sparkles, like, yes. Yeah. This is my game face. Yeah. And I think for me, I'm curious how play comes into. Kink for you.

Elmo: Oh, yes, I know.

Oh, here we go.

Nicole: Okay. Yeah, let's go. Go for it.

Elmo: So another thing that I do, part of, another part of my activism is that I, um, I guests speak at grad schools and I train future therapists, um, in the ways of queer and kink and polyamory, normalizing. And like, not only normalizing, but bringing in like how we can heal with kink and how, you know, like there are so many different ways of thing.

Not, not even just de-stigmatizing, but encouraging and, and being like, hell yes. I'm so happy that you found out that thing that you like. That's like, you know, like, let's check out or check out FetLife or, you know, find some events nearby or classes nearby, but also something that I love. Is when I go into a class and I'm talking about King, I'm breaking it down.

Like what does the B, what does the D and Ss and D and you know, like all of that stuff. Like what do these things mean? And then I start talking about how it's play. I'm like this because people have this idea that there's this like stone cold, like top person who's like being mean to this other person who's just taking it.

And I'm like, y'all, it is not, it can be, yes, it can be for some folks and, but like for a lot of people it's fun, it's playful, it's ridiculous. It's sometimes, and it's like, you know, I know all these, I know Kinky clowns, you know? I know like so many people who are in for the play, play, play, play aspects.

Nicole: Yes. Yes. Which I love. Yes, me too. And yes, and I think so. I never really know who the demographic of my listenership is at times I assume it's me, you know, and people here, and at times I assume maybe it's people lurking who are like, this is so interesting, but I don't know anything about it. So I try to like, kind of like take a moment to ask.

What do you mean play? Like how is kink play?

Elmo: Yeah, for sure. So play for bo like body play. Any, and this is like sensuality, this can be vanilla or also known as non kink. So like anything that's not kink is known as vanilla. Mm-hmm. Which I always say is also delicious, but vanilla's hella delicious. I love all my flavors of ice cream.

Yeah. Love it. Bringing it back to finding the yes in your body and, and like where like if you think of, oh man, how far back am I gonna go? No, let's here. And I'll put in that. So, Finding ways that you like to be touched. Mm. And that can start. Okay. I am gonna go back. So find that can even start with like, what kind of clothing do you like to wear?

Mm. What is comfortable? Yeah. On your body, what kind of textures, what kind of fabrics, what kind of fit? Mm-hmm. How do you like your clothing to be on your skin? What kind of pressure? Like what kind of looseness, what kind of tightness, what kind of softness? You know, like all these things and colors. Like there's so much sensory, there's, there's sensory goodness or yeses, sensory yeses, nces, sensory nos are so informed in what somebody puts on their body.

Right. So I love to start there with folks. And then like thinking about that and then how you like to be touched. Mm-hmm. And what lights you up? What gives you that warm feeling in your belly? What gives you that tingle, you know, in your neck? Like what's like, Hmm. Like what is that really yummy? Like how can you tell in your body that something is yummy and not just in your mouth?

Like if you think about, even if you just think right now about your favorite thing to eat or your favorite thing to smell, right? Like what do you notice? Mm-hmm. Let's just do a little bit right now, Nicole. What do you notice in your body? What happens? Hmm.

Nicole: When I think about what I like to eat?

Elmo: Mm-hmm.

Nicole: Oh, I do ask this question to myself a lot because I live in Chicago, which is a beautiful location, and I can have like any type of cuisine essentially, right?

Because of this location.

And so usually

I feel like into my gut, some sort of like, Ooh, yes, like rah and sounds good tonight. And I can't really describe it anything more than that. Ineffable, like my body tunes into it and says, yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to describe, but it's been a practice. Mm-hmm. For sure.


Elmo: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, you know, there's something that you know mm-hmm. That your body is telling you and you, and there is like, uh, there's a knowing there. Yes. So, what I like to do with folks is kind of get into the details of that, get into that nitty gritty, like what happens in your muscles.

Mm-hmm. What happens in your breath and your pulse. Mm-hmm. You know, starting there and then thinking about emotional sensations. If I see a, like a bush of jasmine growing, I'm like, oh, yes. Then I'll go and just like, lay my face in it and just smell it. I have not learned enough about equal sexuality yet.

I'm getting there. We're getting there. Oh my God. Alright, put a pin in that, Nicole. We're going there next. I'm ready for it. I need some info. I don't know much, but I did connect with a flower this morning. Yes, yes. Oh, okay. All right. Our list is getting long. I know. So I'm gonna go back into the, the KY play right now.

Yeah. So, so fi it's like finding, starting. It's okay to start slow with Yeah. With, uh, with somebody that you're playing with. And I always say that like people, there's like a, there's so much culture around like, especially like dating app culture and things of, like people, a lot of people on dating apps like to move faster than others and.

It's okay to have different speeds. So that's the really important thing when you're learning something new or learning a new body, or learning new things about your own body. Yeah. Um, and helping a new person learn your body. I mean, there's this whole process that can really be slowed down, I think for everyone, but for kinky play, experimenting with like, how does this feel?

Do I like this? Do I like a slap? Do I like a thud? Do I not like pain play at all? Or do I just like role play, like, you know, like top and bottom, like kind of role play? Do I like receiving specific instructions? Mm-hmm. Do I like giving specific instructions? Mm-hmm. And like, how wonderful is that? When in our other life, in our non play life, we are like, okay, I don't wanna be too bossy.

I don't wanna do, I don't wanna be seen as this kind of person, but when we play, Ooh, we can play with that shadow. Ooh. We can bring that shadow out to play. Yes. And that's, you know, that's the play like playing with our shadows. Mm-hmm. And shadow, like, you know, to explain shadow a little bit more. That part of us that we sometimes don't like to admit is there.

Or sometimes that part of us, those parts of us, that we. Don't think should be there again, that word. Should I? Yeah. Like my biggest, what I love to ask of people is to just scratch that word outta your vocabulary. 'cause they're, it's coming from somewhere. It's coming from somewhere outside of yourself.

Yep. But yeah, playing with shadow in, in scenes, in kinky scenes, experimenting. 'cause there's a whole gamut of things. Yeah. Like when I think when a lot of people think of kink, they think of just the SMM part. Yep. But there's so much more. Mm-hmm. And bondage is. You know, people will be like, why do I love this so much?

And I'm like, well, if we're getting into the nervous system, I can tell you that as babies, when we come out of the womb, what do we love? We love being swaddled held super tight and contained in that way. And when we practice bondage with a, with a trusted person, we can get to some of those same spaces.

And our little baby, our like inner baby is like, oh yes. Yeah. This is so nice. I feel so held, I feel so like Yeah. Contained and cared for. Yeah. And it can so many beautiful things for your nervous system. Mm-hmm.

Nicole: I know. Which makes me wanna ask like a spicy question, I guess. Yay. I don't, maybe it's not spicy depending on who you ask, but like, is everybody kinky?

Mm-hmm. Because I feel like sometimes when we think like into the. Okay, so kink is, I mean, I've, I've looked for definitions, lots of different definitions, right? Like who's to name the definition of this term, but like anything that's the not normative practice of sexuality. And so when I ask bigger questions about what the hell is the normal practice of sexuality, right?

Like, right, maybe the scripts of, you know, a heterosexual, monogamous, cisgender, you know, we can put all the labels up into that of what that is. Mm-hmm. And then we deconstruct that. Okay? So anything that falls outside of the scripts, essentially any sort of play that is outside of that then falls into kink, which makes me kind of sit and think like, isn't everybody kinky when it comes to a level of like pure sensory embodiment?

Like, say you wanna focus on that rather than the B D S M pieces of this, right? Like, isn't everyone enjoying this kind of play, but maybe not aware that there's more space to play outside of the scripts?

Elmo: So, I think, no, I don't think everyone is kinky. Yeah. I think that like, there are a lot of people, I think you and I live in a subculture probably where like it feels like everybody's kinky.

Yeah. But no, like that there are a lot of people who, you know, where there is a little bit more of, uh, this is like, I, I have this idea of sex and like some of it's cultural. Yeah. And like, not everyone is super embodied in themselves and then in their pleasure and X, Y, Z and I think kink is a practice.

Mm-hmm. Uh, also like I don't, and like it can be a little bit more of can be an identity or not. Right. And it can be, yeah. A practice of like, Ooh, how. You know, and I think, I also think queerness as a practice too. Mm-hmm. Like I have like a, how can I make this more queer, kind of, you know, sure. In my life, how can I make my life more queer?

How can I, you know, and, but like, yeah, I don't think everyone is kinky, right?

Nicole: Yeah. 'cause I think the fear there's them, by doing that, then I'm erasing the uniqueness of, of the practice, right? Mm-hmm. Of the identity of that. Uh, I think it's always hard for me too, is like, I study like feminist theory and I see the ways in which, like, just even in my past experiences and heterosexual dynamics where like I was craving this sort of man that would come in and be like, All controlling, all this sort of stuff.

And I watch how many people like crave that sort of man that comes in and does everything and controls the scene and is all like that. And I'm like, damn, that shit sounds pretty Dommy to me.

I don't, I don't, I don't know y'all, I'm just


these cravings for this prince charming that comes in and does that.

I'm like, that sounds like a dom. I don't know.

Elmo: Yeah. And I, and I do actually think that is, I think it is too. Yeah, I think that is pretty dummy. Like that's pretty much, oh, like, okay, you're craving some top energy or craving some daddy energy. Okay, get that girl. All right.

Nicole: And I think that's where, then I'm like, damn, is everybody kind of kinky?

But then obviously then you do that, then you might take away from Yeah, the whole respect of the culture and the practice and the, the, I read this book called Pain Play and Religion, like. The gestalt, like the actual practice of kink for its own thing. So yeah. Nuanced conversation around that. But like, Ooh, that's why I was like, this is a juicy, like spicy question to start with.

Yeah. I it, but I'm always curious about it. Yeah. But I can see how it's so healing, right? Like when we're thinking about at least, God, my own past, I don't know about you, but like I grew up very fundamentalist Christian. The idea of the body was sinful. Like there was no connection to the body. Like going through that space of tuning into your embodied Yes.

Of what feels good to you, and then taking that on, like all levels of pleasure, whether it's kink, whether it's uh, sex, whether it's food, all that like that is such a healing journey to reconnect to that, that everybody I think needs.

Elmo: Yeah. I mean, I'm here for it. Like, you know, the whole I am, I do somatic experiencing.

Yeah. In my practice that's my, that's where my somatic training is from. And you know, I've seen people come in and say like, I've been in therapy for X number of years. I just haven't gotten me a whole lot of places. We start doing the somatic work and they take off and they're like, whoa, I forgot this part of myself.

Oh, and I refound this and. You know, like I, they suddenly somebody who came in not really having a lot of boundaries and, you know, being in relationships that they were not satisfied in or feeling taken advantage of or, you know, things like that. I specialize in trauma. I specialize in interpersonal trauma.

I specialize in grief and I get a lot of folks who are people pleasers and perfectionists and, oh, here we go with that. Recovery. I mean like get Yeah. Right. Ruining my teeth over here. I don't dunno. Getting into the body and finding authentic. Yes. And authentic no. Can help you move in whatever direction.

If it's a yes, moving towards something, if it's a no. Maybe taking a little bit of space to saying goodbye. Don't necessarily need to say goodbye if it can be there's some space there or, you know, whatever that is. So, man, I went off on a tangent and now I don't know where I was.

Nicole: No, but I, I will just like underscore that I'm still learning that so much.

So like, even when you asked about like how I know in my body, um, of the food, I feel like I am still just like scratching the surface of understanding my body reactions because where I'm training at, we do a lot of psychedelic work and a big piece of that is connecting to the body, right? Mm-hmm. Because there's particularly so much trauma.

Coming into that sort of client presentation. Right. And so we had done some sort of like didactic training where we put out this, um, rope as a boundary. I don't know if you Yes, yeah. Yes. That's a great one. Yes. You put out the rope as the boundary and you say, this is, you know, this is my space, this is my claim.

And you know, the other person starts to move towards you. And the invitation is to check in with your body and notice how it feels at each point. Can this person come closer? Are they too close? How do you notice that in the body? Right, exactly. I know you're like, yeah. And I, you know, I'm like doing it as the therapist in training and then like afterwards, later that day, I was like, Ooh, I'm noticing in my body that this invitation to spend some time later tonight, you know, is bringing up this reaction in my body.

Maybe that's 'cause I'm overworked and I need some time alone. Right. And I'm, and, and it like just that spark enough to start thinking about that in my day to day. I'm like, I'm the therapist in training. Like I still feel like I'm scratching that surface of like learning what my body has to say to me.

Like, yeah. Wild.

Elmo: Yeah. Yeah. It's a practice. It's not something that we're really taught growing up. We learn, you know, like especially, oh God, man, this okay going far back, how far you wanna go, right? How far back are we gonna go when a lot of us are growing up, go hug your aunt. Oh, you know, you don't know her, but go, you know, you're supposed to go hug her, right?

Like we learn to shut off our. You know, like people train us, people accidentally, accidentally train us to shut those parts off, to shut off our intuition and do what we're supposed to do. Supposed to, whatever that means. Yeah.

Nicole: Right, right. So then when you ask someone, how do you tune into your embodied Yes.

For pleasure. I don't know what that means.

Elmo: Yeah. And that's why, especially because I work with trauma survivors, that's why I start back with

what kind of clothes do you like, what kind of,

what's comfortable on your skin? What kind of clothing? Because that's not even a person. There's not even a person there.

So that's, you know, like what kind of things do you like to smell? Mm-hmm. You know, what colors do you fill your home with? What kind of objects are around you that are interesting or mean something to you? Mm-hmm. Like, we start there, like, what are your favorite holidays? Like, what kind of, what's, what's your favorite?

We start with like, really way, way, way back away from, away from sex and like even mm-hmm. Even like interpersonal sensuality. We start all the way back here and then mm-hmm. You know, eventually there can be like, I am so like, I'm like this level of kink, I didn't even, I didn't even know, you know? Right. Or not or there, you know, or there'll be like, I've discovered that I'm not kinky.

Mm-hmm. Or I've discovered that I'm not poly in this process. Mm-hmm. And like this isn't, this like really isn't for me and it really isn't for everyone, you know?

Nicole: Yeah. And how great, right? Yeah. I always get afraid of someone who's, you know, non-monogamous that like, I'm, I'm talking about so much of the greatness that it feels like it's preaching to say that everyone needs to do this.

And it's like, that is not at all the reality because people feel good in different relationship structures. And my dream is that people have the informed consent to know the different types mm-hmm. And decide the one that feels the most pleasurable to them. Mm-hmm. And follow that until the end of your life.

Trust that inner calling that feels that pleasure.

Elmo: Yeah. Or until another point in your life when it, it changes for you. Exactly. Yeah. Either. Yeah, totally. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Following that, and there are so many, there's monogamy and there's consensual non-monogamy, and within consensual non-monogamy, there are a million different ways of doing that.

Like there are, you know, I hear so many people say, I must not be poly because X, Y, Z, or like, I wasn't into this kind. And I'm like, no, that's you. That style of it is maybe not for you. There's so many different ways to do it. You and your partners, like, you know, well, whatever that feels and looks like.

Have you read Poly Secure? Yeah. Oh yeah. It's required reading for my clients. I love that this is, this is the work that we're doing. So, yeah. I mean, yeah. Getting some education in there and yeah. Feeling out. 'cause I've really, I've had folks who are like, this isn't for me. Mm-hmm. You know, and whatever that meant for their relationships.

And then sometimes you get those people who are matched with people who have relation, different relational styles and oof. That's such a hard one to work through. It's not impossible, but it's close. You know, when you have one person who is monogamous and another person who is, you know, not, you know, not, and really has that need and they both have that need, right.

I mean, it in certain circumstances, it can work. So I've seen it work for folks when the person who is monogamous who's like you, do you? Mm. Like, I'm gonna be over here doing my thing. Yeah. But you do your thing. Yeah. And you know, but so like I have, if that is kind of the case, I've seen it work. Mm-hmm.

But otherwise people are sacrificing huge pieces of who they are to be in the relationship. It's which you can do, which is a choice. Right. That you can, you know, that you can do.

Nicole: Right. That's kind of where I've sat back with it too, is like, okay, like what's your value system? You get to choose Yeah. You know, how you whether to stay in that relationship and cut off that part of your authentic expression for the value of staying in that relationship.

Mm-hmm. And then I also ask like a bigger question too, where I'm like, damn, like when is it also our responsibility to talk about the reality that because of the system that we live in, specifically within America, specifically within this puritanical based society and the shame around sexuality that has.

Taught us to repress a lot of it. Like when is it also important to talk about the reality that it will feel selfish that is in big air quotes over here, to follow that authentic expression in this society. Mm-hmm. And that should not be the case. It should be maybe one that's equally valued as like different ways of choosing to live and choosing to enact your own value system.

But like in our system, that one gets such a lack of respect, I would say.

Elmo: Yes it does. Yes it does. 'cause again, follow it goes back to play and work ethic. Yeah. You gotta work at this. You have to wor and make it work. The, you know, and like following your authentic joy is not something that I think it's getting better.

I think more people are talking about it now. Yeah. And especially back in when I was like a teenager and in my early twenties, A generation ago. Um, that was, that, that was, that breaking up with somebody was like a punishment.

Nicole: Mm. Like they had done something.

Elmo: And I think that's still really holds true that like, what did they do?

They're such a great person. Why did you break up with them? They're so awesome. And it's like, you know, there's this guilting that comes in with that. Like, this person is amazing and you dumped them. And it's like, it doesn't have to be like that. It doesn't have to be that they did something wrong. Right.

It can be two wonderful people. I. Who have different paths and different needs.

Nicole: Right. Right.

Elmo: That's it. Mm-hmm. That's it. Mm-hmm.

Nicole: And those are maybe some of the, hopefully the best, you know, deescalations that we can have is ones where we can sit across from that other person and say like, I love you. I see you.

We have different value systems and we're gonna go our different ways to like build that path. And hopefully like at the end of that is pleasure for both parties rather than this like tug and pull, I guess I've. Had that as someone who tried in the past to bring a partner into non-monogamy because it was such a, like, strong desire I wanted to follow where I was like, please, like, let's do this, let's do this, let's do this and that polling, and it was not what they wanted to do.

Right. And I, I have, you know, different opinions now on doing that to people. Right. In general. But like at the time I was trying to pull so hard, and I don't think I understood this lens to it, of people have different value systems and are gonna have different happy lives in different ways. I, it, it's like very much so like kids to me, I think like, not everyone wants to have kids.

Some people really want to have kids. Mm-hmm. You put those two people together, it's gonna be complicated.

Elmo: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. There can be, there's some real big deal breakers mm-hmm. That are in there, you know? Mm-hmm.

Nicole: And in that, once you start following what you do want, damn. Does it feel good?


I'm kind of angry these days. I was, um, trying to find more research on libido. Mm-hmm. And all of it's very gendered, which is the frame we work in, of course. Sure. So like, that's all I really I can speak to, but like, the research that I have found really speaks to like women's libido dropping off after a year.

And that was like, regardless of the confounding variables of I know. I love that you're already shaking your head. I would love to hear what that you're to say. Um, but like, it was like that was taking apart the, uh, taking out the confounding variables of like child rearing, other sorts of pieces. And like obviously I understand the larger context of like the scripts around sexuality, the orgasm gap, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

I, I, I get it. But like, you know what pisses me off as a researcher. Is that we have all this data and you know, one really big confounding variable is not addressed in there. I haven't seen a single research paper talk about libido and the difference between someone who's in a monogamous relationship and non-monogamous relationship structures.

And so I ask a really big question, what would that research look like? Yeah. I don't know.

Elmo: I think it goes even deeper than like monogamous versus non monogamous in this research. And number one, there's so little research on non-monogamy in general, which is changing more and more right now, that more and more people are coming out, um, as being non-monogamous and practicing non-monogamy.

Yeah. But for me it's like, who are you playing with? Mm-hmm. You know, like this libido thing. A lot of people have responsive desire. Totally. Like, you know, like Yeah, same me too. Same me. Yeah. And like who are you playing with? Is there a mismatch there? Again, that can be like two people who are like two bottoms together, who want the other person to initiate.

I mean like there's so many things. Even if like that's not language that you're using. If there are two people who like are responsive and neither is an initiator, that can just be like, okay, like let's figure out this practice and things like that. Is your partner or your partners curious about you and have you gotten curious about your body?

Do you continue to be curious about each other? Hmm. That is what I think keeps desire going. Yeah. Is like that curiosity and play always comes back to play. Are you playing. Like, or is it that like after that kind of new relationship energy tapers off that the play goes away and we get into our to-do lists and we get into our lives and we get, like, we call each other like, you know, we get into like a pet name.

We stop using our person's name. We just, we only use their, you know what I mean? Like, is it like, do we start taking each other for granted? Totally. I feel like there's so much more of that in that one year drop off of libido. Mm-hmm. Kind of. That's what I hear when I hear things like that. That's what my brain goes to.

Nicole: Sure. Which then I think like, you know, as a perfectionist type a person over here, like play is hard.

Elmo: Mm-hmm. Yeah. You've to unlearn a lot of stuff to invite play.

Nicole: Yeah. Do you have any advice? I'm, I'm still learning that practice how to get more comfortable in play. Yeah.

Elmo: I'm actually, uh, right now and next week I'm recording downloadable workshop.

Cool. Um, called Play School for Adults, essentially. I'm gonna be doing that, so. Mm-hmm. What I wanna, some advice that I give is thinking about what you did to play when you were little.

Nicole: That's what I was gonna say. Yeah.

Elmo: Yeah, yeah. Like what would you, what did you play with when you were little? How did you play?

What kind of, did you play Dress up? Did you play games? Did you collect, like what kinds of things did you collect? Yeah. What did you like to surround yourself with?

Nicole: Yeah, I like to dress up. That was definitely dress up and dance and perform. Yes.

Elmo: Thing. Yes. So, for you, I'd invite you to like, go to the thrift store and get some like super fun clothing that maybe you wear outside, maybe you just wear at home, just to like, feel awesome.

Like if you wanna go further, Take a class, you know, take a, like a, maybe a burlesque class, maybe, you know, clowning class. Like what kind of performance? Taking improv comedy. I will preach improv comedy until I die. It's so, it's like such a, a way to rad. It's a radical acceptance practice. It's a mindfulness practice.

It's an active listening practice. It's a yes. And like bringing that yes and into your life will change your life forever, even if that classes aren't there. You can just like be a ridiculous person in your living room. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Do you know, and by I say ridiculous with all of the love and the, and my little clown heart, like, you know, bringing absurdity into your life.

That's another big thing I love to invite in. Sure. Like, how can we bring absurdity back? Like bring it back. Totally. You know?

Nicole: I know the second you said the comedy piece, my head was about to say I can't, like, I literally can't. And I clock every time I use that word. I can't. 'cause I think


an interesting one at like the shoulds.

Yep. Um, 'cause I definitely can, however, my God. Trying to on the spot do stuff and like stand out in that way. It is absolutely terrifying. And I'm also processing how like this podcast is an act of that. But like I go back and edit it, right? Like I can do whatever I want, you know, kind of really at the end.

So like that's my easy out for my perfectionist anxiety stuff. 'cause I get the final say. You know what I mean? But like, do you not stuff in person. Oh

my God, are you

kidding me? But you know what then happens is when I am playing with my partner, that same sort of like, Ooh, I don't wanna go there because what if I say something stupid?

What if I say something silly? And then like, my deeper subconscious is going through this process of like, if I say that, then I'm gonna be rejected. Then they're not gonna like me. I'm gonna lose connection, I'm gonna lose all that sort of stuff. So like, I better not play that way because dear God, what if you know?

Elmo: Yeah. So, and then you've lost that connection opportunity. Mm-hmm. You've taken that opportunity from yourself and your partner to know you in a different way. Mm-hmm. And

Nicole: I think that for me is like the beauty of a longevity, uh, the longevity of a relationship. Like the, the deeper I connect with people over time and energy.

And I always like to use the framework of like learning how they like to be touched in their bodies and played with as like an instrument that I'm learning, like a unique instrument, one of a kind instrument that has these different chords that I can learn how to play. But like, the safer I get in these long-term relationships, man, the more space that I feel able to just be absurd and go to all the places and, you know, how many more orgasms

Elmo: I am having in my life.

Yes. A lot, you know? Yes.

Nicole: So it's like it's all connected.

Elmo: Yes. Yeah. I mean like, that's just, it, like the long-term relationships. There's this this idea of like, oh, the honeymoon phase is over. And it's like if you are living in curiosity, that honeymoon phase is never fucking over. Yeah. Because there's always something new to learn about your person and yourself.

Mm-hmm. There's always something new to learn about your partners always, always, always. Mm-hmm. I don't care if you've been with them for 50 years. You, they are evolving. Yes. They have. We are all evolving all the time. One of my favorite quotes that I've ever heard about relationships is mm-hmm. When I think I know my partner, I have stopped them from growing in my presence.

And that's not, no, it wasn't partner. It's someone when I think I know someone, yeah. I've stopped them from growing in my presence and that is a hundred percent true. And I, and we get to know each other through. Hello play, you know? Mm-hmm. Like we learn to play in different ways.

Nicole: It's a biological


Elmo: It's gonna keep bringing it back to play because do it, it's

important. Hell yeah. So like when we think of, if you think of puppies and kittens or any baby mammals in the wild, not even baby mammals, like adult mammals too. Like

Yeah. Play the rough and tumble play

that happens. Like that is how mammals learn to navigate social nuance.

That's how we learn each other is through play. Mm-hmm. Biology. It's not just me like being a weirdo and just saying like, we did all play. It's literally biology, it's evolution. It's a need. It is a biological need. Mm-hmm.

Nicole: Mm-hmm. And I would say that that's like, Life force in some way. Mm-hmm. Right? Like the ways in which I am playful in the bedroom slash dungeon slash nature.

You know what I, we gotta get to the eco sexual part too.

Elmo: Oh, we're getting there though. We're getting there.

Nicole: Um, the ways that I play there then directly translate into the ways that I play in non-sexual ways with people. You know, I'm a little bit more like, oh yeah, this or that, you know, a little bit more and like, hence why like that comedy or any sort of like, play classes kind of play in, in all these ways.

Like, I don't know how to use the words to describe it, but like, it ends up being then you're like, Energetic presence in the way that you carry yourself and interact with other people. Like it changes and, and I feel that with people, I can have a conversation with someone and like kinda like gauge what their level of playing is, you know?


Elmo: Yeah. That's what I look for in partners. I know if somebody's super serious, I'm like, we're not gonna get, this isn't gonna work. Like, no. What are your green flags? I'm curious. Ooh. Ooh. I love that. I love it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Playfulness is a huge one. Mm-hmm. Openness and curiosity, that's a huge thing.

Like curiosity, openness, acceptance. Like how gracious are they with other people? You know, gracious as in non-judgmental of character and like, oh, maybe this person's having a rough day, or maybe they're going through a thing right now. Like that kind of thing is like that is a green flag and I mark it and I put it in the file, you know?

And patience and kindness because you can be. Something that I tell my clients a lot is that when somebody is angry with them or they've like done something and they're like, man, I really fucked that up and this person's really mad, and my client is accepting mistreatment because of that, I correct that and I say, you can be angry and kind.

You can be both angry and kind. Yeah. You don't, it doesn't have to be one or the other. It's not that like being mad or at something that somebody did excuses, name calling or shaming of that person's character, criticizing that person's character. That stuff is not, it's just not okay. Mm-hmm. You can be angry and say this, you did this thing and I feel really hurt and angry about that and you know, I needed some time to sort through this.

You know, I'm gonna come back to you and maybe we can sort this out, maybe we can't. But you can be angry and kind.

Nicole: Yeah. And dare I say, we should be angry, right? Like that's another one of those like body reaction emotions that shouldn't be tapped off. And it is often societally tapped off for a lot of people, depending on various intersections of identity that hit there, right?

Mm-hmm. Like anger is not a safe place to go because of how it looks, right? All of those sorts of pieces. But like the ability to feel that in your body and then make the choice of how you respond to that, I think is the key, right? The yes and of like anger, and I love you, I need space and I'm feeling this and I'm not gonna cut off this response.

Maybe I'm gonna go for a walk. Maybe I'm gonna take a kickboxing class today. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like listening to what the body needs in that is so crucial.

Elmo: Yeah, a hundred percent. And that's another thing I love to help people reintroduce. We get so cut off from anger, especially people assigned female at birth.

Right? Right. And raised a certain way that like, you know, you don't wanna be angry refining that. Anger and becoming friends with it and turning it into power empowerment. That's, and I'm like, that's what happens when you have a healthy relationship with your anger is that it becomes empowerment. Right.

And then you don't have to, you learn that you don't have to take that mistreatment, that you don't have to take that when somebody is speaking to you a certain way or treating you a certain way. Mm-hmm. You know, that like, no, my worth is different and I, you know, my worth is more than this and I'm gonna do what, you know, what I, what I need to do to

keep myself healthy and safe.

Nicole: Absolutely. There's a post-it note somewhere on my wall of beautiful ideas that have come to my head at various points in my life. Um, and I'm trying to find it, but I'm not going to, um, 'cause there's too many. But one of them was talking about like, you know, as a woman myself, like, yeah, the amount of times I've been told to be soft and I can't get into my anger.

Like, but man, how I have stepped into that, the amount of fury that I can bring into a play space within my partners sexually, like mm-hmm.

Elmo: Woo woo.

Nicole: There is a lot there.

Elmo: Mm-hmm.

Nicole: Mm-hmm. And there are so many people that I don't think have tapped into the righteous amount of play that can be there with that anger.

I know you're responding. I'm like, yeah. How many of these people could be opened up from just that? Yep. Mm-hmm. I know.

Elmo: Yeah.

Nicole: I recorded with the dominatrix who kind of helped a little bit, like getting into that, like talking about like how to start doing that. But because I think it's uncomfortable at first, at least for myself.

Nice. It's uncomfortable to like control and be like, fucking bow down. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like that.

Elmo: Energy is different. Yeah. Yeah. And practicing that in your kinky play can help bring that into your interactions with the rest of the world.

Nicole: Oh yes.

Elmo: Like I just had this beautiful creature bowing down at my feet last week.

How am I gonna sit here and take this treatment from this motherfucker at the grocery store? You know what I mean? Like, no, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna, exactly. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Nicole: And then this is how it's healing, right? Like, and I'm just, I'm always just like scratching my head going like, how did psychology miss all of this?

I mean, I think we could answer that, like how it missed all of it, but I'm like, damn. Like how is it missing all this like super juicy, transformative content.

Elmo: Mm-hmm. I don't know. I mean, I think we're getting there. I think there's more research going out. I mean, I'm certainly trying to do my part in that by like by, by training future therapists and going back and, uh, you know, teaching at grad schools and stuff like that.

There is more research being done around that and it's just, man, that progress is slow. Mm-hmm. And like even, I mean, if culturally there are so many, just talking about sex and pleasure, like sex for pleasure is a bit, is, it's really hard for a lot of people to talk about and acknowledge. So like the kink element is like, we're, yeah, we're a little, there we're a ways off from that.

Mm-hmm. Like, unfortunately, we are just based on the way culture and reality. The, just the reality of our culture and like how that works. Totally. It's a little ways off. It's getting there. And there are more and more kink friendly, kink aware, poly aware therapists in Chicago. Like, 'cause I'm part of the Chicago community too.

Like there's like, it's amazing. K Kpac is just, it's in full force, you know, kink and poly aware kink and poly aware. Clinical therapist is something like, something like that.

Nicole: I'm on the same list serve,


Elmo: don't even know. I've been in it for years, but I forget what the C stands for. But there's so many. Yeah, there's so many here.

It's a wonderful place to be kinky or polly. So easy to find a therapist, uh, in this area. But like in a lot of other


it's not like that because

I do coaching, I

see people. Everywhere. I have a person in the uk, I have East coast, west coast mountains. I, you know, every time zone in the country, I see people who are like, don't have access to the therapists like us and like mm-hmm.

Need support. And that's another reason I think it's really important to have this, the coaching element of my practice because I can see people from anywhere and people need that. People need this everywhere. Yep. I

absolutely agree. That's a hundred percent what I do too. And like having that space to be able to do that, you know, and access to care that is needed, I think is the ethical decision there?

A hundred percent. Yeah. Especially when we think about all the pieces are that are connected to that with healing that we've been talking about. Like this is absolutely necessary work and especially for me as someone who like. Before, or what brought me into the field of psychology was my own trauma, probably like many of us.

But apart from that, like volunteering, um, in sexual assault, the er being able to do crisis counseling there. And so like, that was kind of like a big push into the field, seeing the lack of conversations about this and then like the whole healing continuum back to pleasure and thriving. Like what does it mean to be thriving sexually?

Ooh, thriving sexually. I would, I would even bring that back to sensually. 'cause like for a lot of folks there, sex is not, there are a lot of ace folks and more and more people are realizing that they're ace. Like same thing that, like not everybody's kinky, not everybody's poly. Not everybody is sexual.

Um, not everybody has interest in romantic relationships. So like thriving


is engaging in things that bring you. That feel good engaging

in things that feel

good. Mm-hmm. Whatever feel good is, whether it's things you like to smell like, like I am this ama amazing collection of different like oils and ugh.

Yeah. No good. Yeah. And right. Or like being in nature. Okay. We're, and we're, I know, I was like, we're getting there, we're getting, we're ingre teasing me. Conceptual topic. So like bringing, so like, bringing in like what, what kinds of things do you, do you like to cook? Yeah. Do you like to make crafts? Do you like to decorate your house a certain way?

Right. Do your garden. I mean, there's so many different sensually, thriving and then interpersonal, sensual, thriving, curiosity and play. Mm-hmm. Don't ever stop playing. Don't ever stop being curious about your partners, about yourself, about your body. 'cause our bodies change. Like we change, our interests change, our bodies change as we age.

And they are gonna be interested in different things. I used to be. A super heavy masochist in my twenties. Mm-hmm. Now in my forties. And I'm like learning more about my sensory needs. My masochism is, Different. Mm-hmm. It looks different. The pain levels are not as high as they used to be. I like different things now and like, that's


And like that's kind of part

of this acceptance. And like, there's part of me that could be like, oh, I'm not as men as it, but it's like, no, I'm just literally like, my body is changing and my needs are changing and I like different things now. And that's as, it's as simple as that. Mm-hmm. So never stop playing, never stop being curious.

That's really it. And like, find people to play with who are curious about you and wanna, and like, wanna explore you and slow down and really be like, you know, let's experiment. What are the ways that I touch you that you like the most? And you know, like really having these mindful sessions where you're just.

Touching each other and just being together. Curiosity, openness, acceptance and love. Mm. Ah.

Nicole: You know, like such a beautiful, yeah. Like, absolutely right. Like, oh, it's like, it's so packed right there. And in the ways that that comes across different pieces too. I remember recording with, uh, Ray McDaniel from Practical Audacity Yeah.

Yeah. About gender magic. Right. And like I was talking about kink and we were talking about like the unfolding that occurs in. Life, right? Yeah. With all of these different pieces. So I think play as an idea, as like a radical act of rebellion and pleasure in our society Yes. Is so, so important. I was just in this, like one of my, um, ketamine assisted, uh, psychotherapy sessions with my supervisor.

We do co-therapy and they were talking to someone and like, I think part of it is that like when someone's on a psychedelic experience, there's a lot of pieces moving, right? There's a lot of like, things going on. There's a lot of things happening. And, um, we'll capture it for people if they talk about it during it, but they were like, oh, I, I, it's just happening so fast.

It's all moving. And my supervisor was like, yep, that's okay. That, that happens in like normal life too, right? Like, there's a lot to go on. You could probably look around. And it, it really struck me in that moment just to think about like, wow. Yeah. Like when you really slow down, I'm missing so much. Like, I'm moving so fast, like mm-hmm.

I could look around a, a store even. Right. And like probably see a different thing every time if I slow down mm-hmm. A different piece of Chicago every time I slow down to see the architecture. Mm-hmm. And I think that same level of presence could be brought to our relationships of like, oh yes, this person is changing every single day.

Yeah. You are changing every single day. Like Right. We could spend our whole life just trying to understand one another. Yes. Whole lives. Yep. I know. So like that curiosity and it's like, we like the schemas 'cause it's faster, right? Like this is, this is this person, this is what I know, I know that. But like, if we can slow down to like open ourselves up a little bit more, like Oof.

Elmo: Yeah. We love to categorize things and we love to feel smart. We love to feel like we already fucking know and we don't like we, we need to keep asking questions, you know? Totally. Our brains love to categorize and breaking that stuff down. It takes focus. Yeah, it takes practice and it takes things like play and curiosity, which are things that we have learned are not adult values, that they're childish, that they're young.

There's so much of that. Culturally what I see when I see people who are, you know, judging and, um, discriminating based on all these things, it's because we've, we're not in touch with our curiosity. It's because we're categorizing and judging and being like, no, these boxes are where these people belong.

And this other box is where I belong. And you've got, you're just causing pain all over the place. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Nicole: And if you're not in my box, then what does that say about my box? Mm-hmm.

Elmo: Yeah. Yeah. And then you have to look at, you have to take it. If you're like looking at other people, then you have to start looking at yourself and you're like, I don't wanna do that.

Nicole: Yes, I know. I know. The radical act is to stay in that pleasure to, to have your confetti, like we talked about earlier, your game, face your joy because you know what's there. And people will, will come on their own journey of their own time and figure all of that out on their own time and space. Mm-hmm.

But I'll ask and beg now. Gimme the eco sexual, like little bit of net. Yeah, let's bring it in.

Elmo: Yeah, let's bring it in. Oh man. So I, somebody just sent me, uh, this really small video of this gorgeous,

it's like a black

leaf with a bright pink center. Mm-hmm. And then the rain is falling on it. And I was like, oh my God, I'm so turned on right now, like watching this thing.

I said it to my friend, I was like, this is the eco sexual test. And he was like, uh, well I passed. Thank you for sending this to me. I love that. Yes. But like, yeah. So eco sexuality is a thing that Annie Sprinkle and her partner Beth kind of coined a number of years ago. And that it's like essentially, Being aroused by nature or being attracted to elements of nature, like thunderstorms.

There's some eco sexuality in that and like, you know, I mean like when have you like made love during a thunderstorm and it wasn't awesome. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. It, it's, that's like elements of, its kind of sprinkled into, yeah. Into n normalcy quote marks all, all over the place already. So, but then it kind of goes into like what I was saying, like when I see a jasmine bush, like when I'm in San Francisco and you know, I used to get, I used to be late to stuff 'cause I was smelling all the flowers in San Francisco.

'cause like I'm always like, like, you know, just having these beautiful, sensual experiences on my way to work. You know, I wasn't like, I wasn't usually late to work, but Sure. Stuff. Yeah. Um, and people just kind of learn to accept that about me, which is great to get you some friends that understand you.

Sure. Um, amen. So, You know, I've had like fantasies about the moon and I mean, I mean there's like so many And it's your own relationship to nature. Yeah. I mean, how do you experience it? I'm curious to hear about your experience.

Nicole: I just feel like I'm a little baby again. Right? All these different practices.

I'm a little baby, I don't know, but what I do know is that That's good. Yeah. They're curious. Yeah. Yeah. I hope, I hope this podcast becomes a learning space for the rest of my life. Just a little public learning space, which is terrifying, but like I think there's a lot of shared experience with people, so bringing it into a space can do a lot.

Yeah. Is my hope. Yeah. For me, I've always really enjoyed having sex outdoors. I love the, like, primal nature of it. I love feeling the wind touch me. Like it's a, it's kind of like, like, I guess it's some of the same ways that I enjoy impact as like a, a sensory experience that brings me really into the present and like creates additional experiences during my play.

So when I'm outdoors and I can feel like. The sun on my skin or the wind moving my hair, like, it's just, it feels like another level of the central experience in which nature is playing with me, kind of like a partner. Mm-hmm. You know, in that same sort of way, it's bringing that for me, I haven't felt like a very strong genital response to it yet, but I, I try not to like center that in terms of anything sexual these days in my life.

I do love like bringing sex to sensual space, right. Of mm-hmm. Yeah. I was walking down the street and I saw this beautiful flower I went to go. Smell it. And as I smelled it, I like took in that smell and I could feel like the soft petals on my cheeks. Yeah. And like what a sensual experience. Mm-hmm. Of like maybe getting a little kiss from a flower, right?

Mm-hmm. Like what an interesting space. So I feel like I'm just at the little beginnings of it.

Elmo: Yeah. I love that. I've made, I've made out with a number of roses in my name, so Very fun. Very fun. A I love the taste of Rose. Is that the next step? Yeah,

yeah, yeah. So I'm learning, yes. That's so fun. Yeah. Great. Keep learning. Exactly right.

Nicole: Keep playing curiosity, keep exploring and following, you know? Yeah. What we talked about earlier, what's in the body. It knows. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I wanna hold a little bit of space as we come towards the end of our time. I know we talked about so much, but when I wrap up, I always like to hold space in case there was something on the guest heart that for some reason we didn't hit to that you wanted to share.

Otherwise, I have a closing question I ask all guests. Okay.

Elmo: Um, I mean, we ran, we were in a pretty good gamut. I know we did. I was really pretty good conversational gamut. So, um, I don't think I have anything lingering. I think we wrapped up a number of things. Yeah. We got to the eco sexual parts and there's so, I mean, there's so much more to explore about that.

And like I talked more about eco sensuality and like my experience and like we were both talking about our eco sensual kind of experiences. Sure. And like, There are more kind of sexual experiences I've had, like having fantasies about nature and like feeling kind of the energy and from certain things and nature and like, man, yeah.

I think we're good. Yeah, I feel good.

Nicole: And yeah, and people can only meet you as far as they've gone themselves, so maybe I'll have to invite you back on in a couple of years since I've explored and can have a deeper conversation about the eco sexuality too.

Elmo: Yeah, totally.

Nicole: Well then I will close with the question I ask all guests.

Mm-hmm. Which is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal? Ooh, I know. No pressure. Yeah.

Elmo: What is one thing?

Nicole: Yeah, only one. The part,

Elmo: there's one's I'm like, I feel like this whole episode has been about that question. Yes. Yes. That is usually the theme of the show. Yes, yes, totally.

What is one thing. I'm gonna say Neurodivergence. Hmm. I'm gonna say Neurodivergence. A D H D. Autism, it's more normal than a lot of people think. And this is something that there's a little bit more public education and awareness around autism and what it actually is and what it actually means to be autistic.

And so more and more people are being like, oh shit. Like, that explains my whole life. Creating more spaces that are sensory friendly, creating more spaces where you're not judging people for being, you know, awkward in situations or that, I mean like, there's so many things and like that would be, that's a whole other episode.

But that's, I just wanna like ex encourage people to read books like Unmasking Autism by Dr. Devin Price and like really educating yourself. It's really important, um, to. Make, make those spaces more inclusive, I think.

Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think we're moving towards that future when you're mm-hmm.

Talking about that in this space, right. And creating more conversation, more openness to have these dialogues that we can create that space. Yeah. Well it was such a pleasure to have you on the show. Where do you wanna plug so that people can connect with you and all of your services, that new workshop you're releasing, all of those fun things.

Elmo: Yeah, so my website is weird light You can also find me on Instagram weird lights underscore coaching. Yeah. So you can find me those places.

Send me a

dmm, I'm down to chat. I love answering questions and you know, talking about stuff. So, yeah.

Nicole: Great. So it was such a pleasure to have you on the podcast.

Thank you for sharing all of your expertise. Thank you. Thank you for having


Elmo: This was really fun. This was a really fun conversation. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

1 Comment

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determinant logic
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