Nicole: The first question I like to ask each guest is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?
Sarah White: How would I introduce myself? I feel like right now at the space of my life, I would introduce myself as an alchemist, like a sensual whisperer into like a new world, using all the different skills and different romances and different things that excite me to activate people's curiosity around how to disrupt in a way that feels good.
Nicole: We're going to have a whole hour to unpack that sentence right there. So, I mean, where do you want to start me in unfolding what that means?
Sarah White: Yeah, I think that I have been studying the power of people and listening to our bodies for a long time. Maybe since I was born in this earth, I've kind of always gravitated towards that, but also with science and I've always just as an inquiry and contrarian disruptor.
I've always been curious about what science can teach us, but how much we already know. So I've used that into all these different worlds. I've worked as an artist. Um, I do healing, like helping people get back into their bodies, but even more so now as an older mother, you know, I'm 42, um, tapping into, like, even disrupting my internal bars, you know, the ways I was taught I should be and how sensuality can be a pathway or like a river into.
The floodgates of my pleasure and of my fullness.
Nicole: Yeah, yeah. I'd love if you'd be willing to share, like, what was your own personal journey with sensuality?
Sarah White: I'm still on it. Yeah, yeah. I think that I was in a relationship where because we decided to have children and, you know, I thought I needed to, like, follow a certain pathway.
I watched myself slowly turn off parts of myself, maybe parts that he was attracted to initially, or the world was attracted to initially, but I'm like, now that I'm a mother, I. I need to put this part away and I didn't notice until it had been about 10 years, how many parts of myself I had away. And so I slowly started to play with it again.
You know, I'd say maybe 8 years ago, you know, with the way I dressed or with things I said, the way I grinded on stage and. Just kind of watch the feedback. Lots of it was so negative coming from other women coming from, you know, ex partner, just coming from even inside. And so that made me really curious.
I'm like, why is it that I can't allow every part of myself to exist? And from there, I guess, just slowly, it's just deepened. Um, bringing us into the pandemic where I found myself alone and celibate and had plenty of time to explore that.
Nicole: Yeah. So back when you started cutting off or or, you know, putting away the parts of yourself into maybe boxes I'd be curious like what parts were those that were starting to be like clamped down?
Sarah White: Well, so I was a full time musician, artist, singer. And so I guess I first started to notice it with the ways I thought about my words. Like, oh, don't, you know, they don't want to hear that or that shouldn't be there. Like the should and shouldn'ts. Is where I started to see it change me and even to the point where I would think about what someone else would think before I put on something or chose what I was going to wear into a space that really stuck out all of a sudden, you know, and it's it became integrated into the ways that I was choosing to exist.
And it was hard to look at hard to admit that that was something as like, a powerful activists and, you know, like, mother integrated into me internally. So, yeah, that's where I guess I 1st, I started with that.
Nicole: Yeah. And where do you think that was coming from? Do you think it was like the identity as a mother or like what other pieces do you think were you kind of like fighting against at that time?
Sarah White: My goodness, we would need hours. I mean,
I mean, I grew up. With, uh, like a really like rigid spiritual household, um, around, you know, what would bring you to hell and what wouldn't. And so that fear got spanked into me very young, you know, like how to behave, how to comply and, um, which parts of myself were allowed to exist. I think it only got more amplified by the systems.
By white supremacy by, you know, patriarchy and also, yeah, just by the reflection you get back to, to yourself of yourself from society. I started to believe it, you know, at some point. It's almost like I just caved to like, this is who I am. I forgot about some of the things I left behind in childhood, you know, slowly remember that as we age and re embody ourselves and.
I don't even look at it. It's not even like painful to me anymore. It's more just like a curious place as I work as, you know, someone who does play with alchemy and healing and, and using the power of what the system can't take from us to rediscover ourselves. I find it a beautiful dance, um, pain and joy, you know, agony.
Nicole: Yep. We need the light and the dark. And I guess. For me, I guess I'm thinking about how many people might not be realizing how many parts of themselves they're clamping down.
Sarah White: Yeah, and that's what's really beautiful about creating practices for yourself, like minute practices for yourself, like, even decolonizing the idea that you have to be like a Yogi, or you have to like, be a certain way to meet yourself.
It's like, who you already are is already enough and there's nothing more you should be. So can you take three minutes to maybe just write about something that you miss? Or like, can you take three minutes to sit in silence and listen to the scary things that might be repeating on autopilot in your brain?
And like, yeah, just allowing the small things and they grow and expand and then you start to remember.
Nicole: Absolutely. For me, I like to think that all of us have like internal compass of some sort, right? That When we start cutting off these parts of ourselves, we might not realize it at the time, but we start to feel like something is off.
And I'm, I'm curious if you started to feel that in your journey, just like this rigid, like something was missing
Sarah White: 100%. It was like a, a dissonance and I feel dissonance really often because I'm a human design projector and I feel like. I kind of, like, know where I think, where I think I create the world to go.
And so I'm always just like, what is taking so long? Like, we're still dealing with these, like, petty, like, systems, you know, so I'm already bitter and, you know, feeling that. But to me, it was like, I looked in the mirror 1 day. I just didn't even recognize myself anymore. You know, I'm like. I'm looking at myself as an outside.
Yeah. And it's okay. It's like, we don't have to be ashamed about who we are now. Like, but if we feel some discomfort, even if someone asks you to do something and you don't know why it just doesn't feel right. That's your compass trying to communicate. It's like, Hey, you know, and sometimes it's the softest whisper and.
I think the more we sit with, like I said before, sit with ourselves, but sit with the whisper, sit with the question, the more space we allow for our full selves. To kind of take up space again in our bodies.
Nicole: Mm hmm. That's why it's a journey, like you said, something we're continually on, like deeper and deeper connection to that internal compass, that intuition, that gut, whatever we want to call it, that is guiding us in these situations, right, of, of feeling like something's maybe too restrictive or feeling like something is the expansive way.
So yes, absolutely. And I'm always talking about like. Getting quiet because I think that that's when we're able to hear it. If we're constantly in the go, go, go, when am I going to hear that until it's too late, right? Until it's too late when I'm sick on my face, sad crying. And then I'm like, what's wrong, you know, right?
Sarah White: I still land on my face crying often and I'm like, shoot, you know, like I never say any of this as a preacher because the journey is continuous, you know, but yeah, I still find myself finding out the hard way. You know? Mm-Hmm. .
Nicole: Mm-Hmm. . Are there any recent lessons that you feel like you'd wanna like, share that you've been like chewing on?
Sarah White: Mm, yes. Yes. Yeah. I recently went out of town with someone that I've been relating with, and I feel like there's things that I know internally that I need to say or question. Mm-Hmm. And I'm finding this like, you know, maybe some attachment. Issues are patterns coming up around me being afraid that if I say, whatever, I'm feeling really deep gutturally that I'm going to lose connection and that I'm going to be alone.
And so I chose just to be like, it's fine. It's not a big deal. You're overthinking it and I went. And then a few days later, my throat started hurting and, you know, the air is. Really questionable these days, you know, the Canadian fires and there's like alerts. I understand that. But as a spiritual person, you know, it got so bad where I couldn't swallow.
I couldn't speak. I've never in my life had such a throat issue and it was so painful that I had to leave early. You know, I did get to say some of this stuff on my mind, but the pain that I'm still healing from right now, this is just a few days ago. Like my voice is different right now. It's always raspy and sexy, but just kind of like not listening to myself showing up physically was such a reminder that it's okay for me to ask the questions.
It's okay for me to risk being alone. It's okay for me to choose myself. And it's while that 42 to still have to remind myself, we almost get choked down, you know, by my choices and I don't regret going at all. I had a great time, but, um, just kind of it tempted me to spend some time alone and do some reflection and get clear on.
You know, what my desires are.
Nicole: Well, it's so hard when, like, uh, you set it up exactly right. Like, you're threatening a connection. Like, will this person leave me if I express that?
Sarah White: That's terrifying. Yeah. It's like the biggest fear, I think, for most of us as humans, even though Yeah. Yeah. This current wave of where we're at is like showing who we are as humans is like, we're all okay.
Like I am in this selfie. It's I'm just kind of like, you know, I'm scared to be alone. You know, the world feels intense right now. And I want to be loved like everyone else. I want to be soft.
Nicole: Absolutely. I mean, I think we could take even like from an evolutionary perspective of like the safety being in the herd, right?
It's like the idea of being outcasted is, you know, from an evolutionary standpoint, our brain's scariest space to go to. And then from my psychology lens, you know, we're forced to like have a theoretical orientation to understand humans and suffering and et cetera. Um, and I tend to pull from a lot of different things, but one of the ones that I study is, um, like feminist psychology talks about relational cultural theory.
And it would say that like, All of human suffering comes down to this exact question that you're talking about of like, are there parts of myself that I can't say or express? And the more that we turn inward and inward and inward, then that's where we might see things like schizophrenia, other sorts of things.
There's so much of our voice that has been clamped down out of fear, out of losing connection, plus the systems. You know, it takes a larger perspective. But so like, as you're saying that, that's like always what I'm thinking about through my lens when I'm working is like, what is that part of ourself that we're so afraid to say?
And maybe then we hold in shame or we disconnect, um, and how that creates our suffering in many ways. I think it's more complicated than that, right? I don't think it's just that, but it's a big piece, like you said.
Sarah White: No, that's like even somatically gave me a big exhale just to hear and remember that that is, you know, it's not.
Always something that we can logically figure out, you know, it's our amygdala. It's all the parts of our brain. It's all of our wiring. That's begging to be whole begging to be seen. And I think sometimes. Where I get in my head about it is that outwardly, you know, I'm someone who's on stage. I'm someone who's holding other bodies and guiding other people and like, you know, really outwardly confident.
And then inwardly, I'm having this internal conversation about, am I going to be left? Am I going to be left, you know, on repeat? And it's, it's so interesting just to sit with that. It's a discomfort that I'm learning again to be curious about. Yeah. And naming it, other people have space to name it too, you know?
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. So you're doing so much holding for other people, but then the reverse.
Sarah White: Yeah. People are like, you're afraid, you know, that's why I'm holding you, you know?
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. But then the power of naming that in relationship, like I'll get into some sort of like, you know, um, argument or certain sort of difficult conversation with one of my partners.
And then I'll just be like, okay, so you're not leaving me, right? Like, that's where my brain is going right now. Is that like, you're saying this and you're going to leave and you're going to bolt and, or I tend to do the same thing, which is like, um, sometimes I'll see something that will get me upset. And then I'm like, well, I'm done internally.
I don't leave obviously, but internally my brain's like, I'm done. I don't need this person. Goodbye. I have my out plan. You know, like it's just fascinating. These internal thoughts that we have that are so fast and being able to like name them and tell one of my partners, like that's where my brain went.
That's not where I'm going, but that is where my brain went in my like, yeah, amygdala when it got activated. Right. It's hard. It's really hard.
Sarah White: So automatic. Yeah.
Nicole: Yes. But being able to acknowledge that that's not then our reality, right? Like we are not those thoughts. I think that's the biggest piece, uh, being able to like know that we can have those thoughts and still name them.
That's like the humanness, right?
Sarah White: Yeah, but it's, it's separate from the we, the big we, like, who we are inside. It's not the monkey, you know, spiral of thoughts. It's not the in and out. It's, it's just like, we're still there in the center. Centering is a huge part of my practice in my life right now. Every day, because I sometimes wake up.
You know, ready to jump on the wagon and run around and spend everywhere and yeah, things from the past, things from the future, you know, and the work I do, I feel like I'm working with the past and the future. And you know, that's a lot to sit with if you're not grounded in yourself.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. What sort of grounding practices do you engage in?
I'm curious maybe for the listener to like, yeah, be inspired by some of the work that you do to keep that grounding.
Sarah White: Yeah, I've studied a lot of different techniques. I feel like a really simple 1 that I can just share that only takes a few minutes. I'm kind of just settling into even if you're standing up or wherever you are, hopefully not driving a second, but just kind of sitting down and feeling if you have feet or a seat that is touching something kind of just feeling not even if it's like a back leaning against a surface.
And just feeling that that's there for you. And maybe if it's safe, dropping your eyes for a second and just noticing your breath, you don't have to judge how it is. It can be slow. Maybe it's rapid, but kind of seeing if you can slow it down a little bit and bringing everything inside, feeling your, your center line, maybe tapping into your spine for a second, maybe even rooting down into the earth by tapping into your pelvis and letting the earth come up and meet you like little roots coming up your legs.
or tapping into the skies above you kind of flooding the galaxies. Down onto your head.
And when you're ready, you're just gonna wiggle your fingers or toes or legs, maybe spin your neck around and really slowly blink your eyes open and come back.
Nicole: Thank you for sharing that. That was beautiful.
Sarah White: Thanks for letting me.
Nicole: Yeah. I think it's. Sad, hilarious, funny, whatever we want to say that like going through all of my training as a psychologist and training There's not a single class on the body Not a single class on the body and so I'm always talking with clients about how like we could spend like all this time thinking about the up here and the Cognitive right and like I think some of that is important.
We can't just Only I mean, maybe, but I think that like, because we're beings with histories and narratives and, and always moving forward into new narrative creation, like there are thoughts up there that are going to happen. So being able to process that is important. However, doing what you just brought us through.
Being able to have that, like, I think people forget that, like, we can work from like a bottom up way. Like if we can work with the body and relax the body, it helps our brain go out and away from the amygdala into our prefrontal cortex enough to just breathe and be there.
Sarah White: You don't even have to stay there very long to have significant shifts in the way you feel if you're in a panic, you're not able to use your full brain.
Anyways. Yeah. All the degrees all the logic. It's not accessible. And so, if we're able to get into our bodies for a 2nd, we're able to, like, see each other different work together differently. Work with ourselves differently, you know, bring in that compassion. And as a frontline activist, I've tried all different ways.
You know, I've studied I'm deep into intellect and I also see the importance of us being able to, like, see each other for a second, see ourselves for a second. And I think I think it's a really big radical act that nobody can take from you.
And tap into yourself for a 2nd and get access to, like, the. The everything that you are, you know, because we're not, we're not only like this moment and I, once I got into that, I was like, oh, this is, this is my activism, you know, like getting people into themselves and just taking a second to not worry about everything else.
Nicole: Well, it's so hard though because the world's on fire.
Sarah White: Oh, I think about it with my eyes closed.
It's not going to change it. You know, 3 minutes of us closing our eyes is not changing the fire yet.
Nicole: I know. I know. I know. I know. I was just talking about this with like, one of my partners is that like, I feel like in this activist space, sometimes it's like, always critiquing, always noticing the problems that need to be changed, which is great.
Yes, but then like what happens when you're so completely burnt out on continually in being in that space that you can't be an activist anymore.
Sarah White: Yeah, I mean, I didn't come into the healing world by choice. I wasn't I'm like, let's storm, you know, like, but I did activism for 20 years and I started losing friends to mental health to suicide.
And I'm like, these are the front liners, you know, like. We're missing something here, and I'm not saying that I have the ultimate answer, but I'm saying there's thousands of ultimate answers. That's why the diversity of who we are as creatures is the way it is. And for our survival, I think we need to come together and access more of ourselves.
That's that's my dream. You know, that's what I try to lower people into, whether it's with, like, twerking or breathing or dancing or farming, you know, I'm like, just come home.
Nicole: Mm hmm, mm hmm, mm hmm, mm hmm. There's so much power in that, because I think that when you're in that space, the way that you show up for your community is different.
Sarah White: Mm hmm. Yes, and I just feel like I think about Octavia Butler. I just think about all of the wild fantasies that are now happening, you know, out here. How so? Well, just the Armageddon of life, just kind of like, yeah, it was like, oh, this could happen. And it's like, no. Well, this is happening, you know, and how can we dream here in this space?
And I think about my ancestors, how they had to, I couldn't even imagine being in a situation on a plantation, dreaming of a future of someone else. I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful. I give so much honor to, to their creativity to still make love. You know, to still find ways to find pleasure, to make food, to break bread, to sing, to have ritual, to brainwash people.
And I don't think the world looked any less crazy for them than the world that we're seeing right now, you know? Mm hmm.
Nicole: Mm hmm. And when you see that future, that revolution, what do you see?
Sarah White: I mean, I would have said something really different 3 years ago, you know, with the uprisings in Minneapolis, where I live here, I think healing from that time and space.
Steel has made me see a future of like people, especially black, black and brown bodies laying preferably naked laughing in soil, you know, like running through sunflower. Farms, like, just like frolicking, breathing, mourning in circles, just, just like a natural animal instinct without having to look back.
That is what I feel is like a way to start healing, just create enough spaciousness where you don't have to worry about anything for. A significant amount of time and you can, like, bring your whole get the fight or flight out of the automatic, you know, and and access the parts of yourself that can arrest and restore.
I think I think there's a lot of people and generations of people that have never experience. Rest. Yeah.
Nicole: May it be so. Right?
Sarah White: The future is rest for me.
Nicole: Yeah. And I think we, we know that like we, we get used to whatever sort of condition that we're in. Right. And so like for many of us who are running, running, running, it is like, it seems normal.
Right. I mean, I think I've heard a lot of people who are like, As we're adjusting from COVID, right? This space of like, I used to do so much more. I used to do so much more. But now when I do it, I'm exhausted. It's like, well, yeah, you got off the treadmill if you were privileged enough, right? To get off the treadmill enough to realize maybe we don't want to run that fast anymore.
Sarah White: Well, that's the thing is the way it is currently because you were asking me about the future, right? But right now, I don't think it's even fair to put rests on the table for so many people, you know, and I'm not trying to be condescending about that dream. That is a dream that I want to speak as a, as a voice of power to bring that forth for us but that is something that I know that even myself as a single mom.
It's sometimes a joke, you know, for me to even like, think about how, when can I stop, you know, I stop and do I lose our place to live? Do I lose these things that I need? And yeah, how can I play with my dream? And my reality is kind of just. The current, you know, weaving.
Nicole: Yeah, weaving is like, I love that word.
Um, one of my colleagues had used the word like dance. Like how do we step into the space of like doing the work and then coming back to rest? I'm curious how you, yeah, navigate when you are a mother and having to hold all these different responsibilities in the world in our current society.
Sarah White: Yeah, it's day to day.
It's not all, but I, I'm in a, I'm studying this Rasa yoga teacher training right now. I kind of find things to learn that help me adapt when I get into a place where I feel like I'm up against the wall and that might be my, like, toxic trait. I'm like, I need every certificate. Like, I just, I love information evolving.
So I'm like. I could use Tantra to shift paradigms, like, bring Sidney up, you know? Um, so I'm currently in a program that's all about Tantra and weaving from the innermost cave of the heart. So the innermost cave of the heart being on our ally when we're stuck in our head. And we're stuck and trying to figure out how, like, learning how to actually, like, lean into and breathe into that softness.
And it's honestly just so sexy and romantic to me that, like, It keeps me coming back, you know, when I'm feeling like I don't know how I'm going to make this work. I go to my studies. I go to my spiritual practices, you know, and I go back to movement. I go back to breath and. It just kind of gets me through until the next day and I do it again.
I do it every day I check in with me, and some days it's like turmoil, I don't like it in there, I don't want to go in there, but I do it grudgingly and I normally come out like with less of a chip on my shoulder.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah, this makes me curious if you'd be share, if you'd be willing to share what that practice is and how it is sexy and romantic for you.
Sarah White: I think a lot of things are sexy and romantic. I love that. I feel like I, for me, I use romance and sexiness. As a fire to keep me going when I'm looking at chaos in life, like if I'm at home, one of my practices is with what I create. So even with my morning coffee, like there is maca powder. There is like my powders with mushrooms in it.
I normally put on some really good music and burn some copal just kind of to get the vibe going, sexy music while I'm boiling my water. And then, you know, I put in fresh cinnamon nutmeg, like you don't even need all that, but I want to feel. That this cup is just like, this is my moment. This is for me.
This is my alchemy. This is my romance. And like, I try to make little moments like that in my day, even if I have a full day, I'm like, what part can I ritualize for me? What part can I be extra and take up extra space in, you know, like, where somebody else would be like, Oh, my God, you know, you don't need it to be this way.
I'm like, I want it to be this way. It's not mean this is the 1 place that I can go from not necessity, but from desire. And I use my desires as my little map, you know, to, to tap into my larger sensual body. But also into the work into going into the heart and another way I would say is, you know, when I am feeling angry or like, bitter, I kind of go into the heart and ask, you know, what do you need what do you want from this?
For real? And normally it's not what I think I'm mad about. It's not it's not necessarily like, when pointing the finger at it's something I haven't said. It's something I'm afraid of. It's something that I didn't deal with that has been following me. Um, those are kind of a couple of the ways, but I also study, you know, the, the texts, the ancient spiritual texts, the mudras, the mantras, just because I'm a group that I'm like, tell me everything.
Nicole: Yeah, I've got the sutras up on my wall over here. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, the first piece you were talking about, I was thinking about the importance of the frame, right? I think that I try to do something similar when like, when I'm cooking, like this is my artistic practice. I am not a good cook, but I try to make it like a spiritual practice, right?
Like how can I connect to this and the art of what I'm making and the way that I'm cutting and doing this, right? And I'm thinking about kind of like, The frame that you talked about creating your coffee in this, like, pleasure desire state, rather than this, like, Oh, I have to cook dinner. I have to make coffee because I have to go to this and I have to do that.
Like flipping that frame to like, where can I find my pleasure and my desire in this? Even if it's a five minute window before you're running out to go to work, right? Like how can we create that frame of pleasure?
Sarah White: Yeah. Cause it's not always easy. And There's plenty of days that I forget to blame it as much as I, I wish I would've, you know,
Yeah. But it's so easy to get caught up because there's so much to catch you up, you know? But yeah, it's again that compassionate, you know, no judgment place. I keep it at no judgment place. I could forget for days, and then I'm like, oh, yeah, all good. We're back.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And in the days when we're not there, it's because there's some sort of other fire going on, right?
Like, I don't think it's like we choose to get out of that state. It's like our nervous system is seeing some sort of threat in some sort of way. And so we're trying to attend to it. And I get stuck in that all the time where it's like, I can't even think about my pleasure because it's like, well, what happens when this happened?
And then you start that spiral and you go there and it's like, our brain is just trying to keep us safe in that moment. Right? Like, yeah. If we're beating ourselves up for getting out of the practice of pleasure, wherever we're at with that journey, like it's because typically there's some sort of threat we're perceiving and real threats, right?
Like that is taking our brain there. And so being able, I liked what you said earlier about like the breath is something that no one can take away from us. Ever, right? Like, we can always come back to that.
Sarah White: Well, even that feels kind of cryptic with the air right now, you know.
Nicole: Don't take me down the climate change rabbit hole, I can't.
Sarah White: No, we're going to come back up. Um, but it did make me think of one more thing, though, I want to say, because I think the word pleasure and the world of pleasure is starting to get, you know, commodified by the beast as well. And I think that for a lot of us, You know, trigger warning that are coming from a history of any type of physical or sexual abuse, you know, coming into pleasure.
Also can feel scary and I feel like I've self sabotage often around choosing my pleasure because there's something hidden in there. That is scary to what has happened in the past when you've taken up too much space, you know, and. I think it's okay to allow all of those feelings to be there, allow all of them to be there.
And maybe that means you need to, like, you know, have a therapist. Well, that comes up for sure. Have some support write things down. You know, I'm not I'm not a therapist. I'm a pleasure rebel who wants to understand more on how to exist in my body because my tendency. Is to leave and so it's just something that I'm, I'm playing with, but I want to say that with the softness and understanding that pleasure means something different for all of us.
And, you know, my, my prayer is that we all get to feel everything we want to feel more. Oh, we're overflowing, bubbling. Yes.
Nicole: And I'm a therapist trying to deconstruct the power of therapists because I've seen some bad ones. Let me tell you. Yes. Uh huh. So yeah, I'm curious for you. I've talked a lot about like my healing journey of what that's looked like in terms of connecting with pleasure, but I'd be curious to, for the listeners who are more familiar with my journey, like how did you start to tap into more of that pleasure for you and your body?
Sarah White: Can I say anything?
Nicole: You can talk about sex, psychedelics. You can talk about sex work. You can cuss. I mean, what are the other bad cardinal sins that I can think about, right? That might be on there.
Sarah White: Um, so I came from a really like superficial place. I would say this is. Where I met myself in the pandemic when I realized I cut off everybody in my life, and I was going to be like, forced into some celibacy.
My goal was to come in a way that was like. Wet and explosive, like, I wanted to squirt that was my intention squirt and I didn't know how much was like, underneath that, you know, like, how much my goal was orientated towards something happening and not internal. I was like, this is what I want. This, you know, would be sexy.
And so I got a pleasure daddy or pleasure therapist that I worked with and we did like one on ones, you know, over the phone and started to go in. And I was like, man, this is not as sexy as I thought it would be. I thought we were going to like, do some kind of like, you know, squirting, but no questions about insecurities and questions about.
Okay. 1, I'm afraid of, and, like, you know, the ways I 1st touched myself as a kid and, like, what happened? I'm like, this is not this is not what I thought. I had bought all these, like, glass and crystal and I was just like, you know, I was ready to go, but it really it took a quick shift right away into the internal and.
Honestly, I found so much in there is that's what led me towards daily meditation. I signed up for a six month meditation teacher training. Cause that's like my go to, uh, when I want to learn about myself and it really shifted my pleasure into understanding. Yeah. More what feels good, small things that feel good.
Not the big goal of the explosive squirt everywhere, fill up the bed, but like, you know, just remembering how I used to like grind and touch myself and remembering, like, Yeah, which parts of myself I like to like sit with and feel and breathe with and I found so much discomfort in sitting with the parts of myself that, yeah, it really threw me off.
It really threw me off. I thought I had known everything about myself and now it's luscious because so many things are brand new again. Like, I get to practice asking other people outside of my body to slow down. Even if I have to say it over and over again to a point where it might be like, this feels like it's too slow for the way I learn.
I'm born or I learn through partners, but this is how slow I want it and. Man, there's something so powerful about trusting yourself in your pleasure and letting it be any color, any shape, any temperature, letting it be, you know, slow as molasses or like fast and hard. I mean, it's, it's really, it's changing me from the inside out.
That work first that I didn't I wasn't looking forward to doing and I think I have a lot more of that to do Hell
Nicole: yes, and me too and that journey, right? I mean as a sex educator I'm always like well, I'm not talking about positions and I'm not talking about blah blah blah, but like I think that behind those like basic things of positions or whatever, whatnot, I think that you'll figure that out through play and exploration, because I think at the heart of most of our struggle is like kind of what you said earlier.
And my own experience is like, you know, like when did shame come in? So pleasure with your body. And for me as a Christian growing up, that was day one, right? Like there was shame laid in across that whole thing. And so when people like pleasure themselves and then have, you know, some sort of release or don't, but like have immediate shame afterwards and then go into the, Oh, what did I do?
Let's close the laptop. No one saw that, right? Like, that's fine. Right. Okay. Like there's a law there. You still do that.
Sarah White: Yeah. And. Well, it's and it's just kind of creeps in, you know, my dad was a Christian. I grew up with, like, a Christian church. I went, like, 4 days a week. I was like, slain of the spirit on the floor, like, all the time of my childhood.
So, like, that lives in me, you know, that understanding of that powerful force, but I was taught in a way where it was outside of me. That I could do things to bring myself further and further and further away from access to it. And so sex and pleasure definitely are the first shame for me for sure. Right.
For sure. And it's sometimes I, it comes up when I'm getting close to something really pleasurable. It's like thought of God comes in and then I'm like, everything like shuts off and I'm like, whoa, it's still in me. You know? Yeah. And, and, and that's okay. I'm more Mm-Hmm, .
Nicole: Absolutely. It reminds me kind of like at the beginning of our conversation, we were talking about like the threat of disconnection, right?
Like from the young age of the messaging around what we were taught. What you were taught was that if you engage in this sort of pleasure, then yeah, it takes you further away from God. which is into internal damnation. I mean, depending on what sort of messages you were taught, obviously not all Christianity does this sort of messaging, but the one that I got, and maybe you got cause you're nodding was that, uh, yeah, you will be in hell for all of eternity with fire and teeth gnashing at your skin.
So yeah, when we think about pleasure in the body, and if I do that, then that's what I get. Like, of course there would be such. deep, deep pain in this area. And I think that at least in a lot of making of this podcast, I get so many comments from people who have said that like the piece around Christianity and all of this has been really hitting home.
So I think that there are a lot of people who have like come to the, you know, the space in their life where they're relooking at the ways that those messages like impacted their ability to connect with pleasure in their body. We don't even have to get into the queerness thing of my, you know, that journey for people and myself included.
Right. And or any of that, but like, just purely pleasure at all, you know.
Sarah White: Yeah, so deep and I feel like I'm still kind of definitely very queer, but still unpacking what that means for me because. You know, I find myself still I don't, I don't think I'll ever necessarily have a conversation with my parents about it because they still are making comments that make me feel ashamed about who I am as a 42 year old mother.
And I don't think that they're doing it on purpose to hurt me. But I do think it's hurtful to continually hear that patterning at this point in my life. And so I've just kind of settled into understanding that the ways I express myself and the ways I live will be queer for me and for everyone around me that is welcome to dance with me in it, you know, and the people that.
Um, wanna keep spitting the other patterning at me might not have access to my fullness. Yeah.
Nicole: Yes. Which is your empowerment, right? Like that is your empowerment that you get to choose that you're going to keep that part for yourself sacred, right? And that those people won't access your full embodiment.
That is your choice.
Sarah White: Yes,
Nicole: and hopefully my dream is that through conversations like these that we can, like, gently change that future for other people. So they don't have to make that choice, right? That, like, the world can expand to have more compassion for the ways that people show up for pleasure.
That's a long game. That's a long game.
Sarah White: You know, that's what I think about when I look at my, my beautiful daughters, you know, like they're all, they're living in a different world, at least maybe because of the types of people we've attracted into our lives. Because we speak this way, you know, because I do, I'm on my Instagram and my lingerie, like making food, you know, twerking.
I'm like, this is who I am. And I know I don't fit the box, but this is who they know as mama. And because of it. Yeah, they just have such a different perspective. No, it's their friends are all different genders and express themselves all different ways. And sometimes I'm just like, baffled by it. I'm like, wow, you know, we would have been like, made fun of or, you know, exiled and like, they are creating a new world to, you know, and they're, they're the ones that are going to be in it.
So I like to really surrender and be curious to my inner youth. You know, my inner child, but also what they're saying, you know, they meet me at the table eye to eye and I'm always down to let them have a conversation with me and they call me out on consent and things like that too, you know,
Nicole: love that. I love that.
And then you don't threaten connection from them, right? Like you love them. Yeah. Tell me, tell me.
Sarah White: Yeah, no, I mean, I'm just learning. Honestly, it's like the hardest job that I have, you know, because it's a job that looks you back in the face and they know me so well that sometimes they can call me out when I don't even see myself, you know, the ways that I'm my mental health is, or, you know, the ones I'm speaking to them about things, you know, and we listened to a podcast once me and my youngest around.
Kids and phones and kind of how, like, what it does, the harm it does, how condescending it can be to, like, take a phone away as, like, discipline when they look and see you scrolling. And so that's been brought back over and over again. Like, you know, you didn't ask, or you're doing this. To try to get me to do something else.
And remember, we talked about this is the way to I would like you to ask me to do this. You know, I would like to see me in this. I'd like you to understand, like, we went through and learned about. You know, my mental health, and this is the way it helps for me and I forget sometimes because I was just talked down to, you know, I was told what to do and it's yeah, it's really a vulnerable, vulnerable place to be.
I'm like, I'm still a kid too. You know, I really, I really, um, I say that all the time to them. I'm just like, you know, meet me where I am. I'll meet you where you are. I don't know. all the answers. I know that I'll try, you know, I'll be here.
Nicole: That sounds like beautiful parenting to me, right?
Sarah White: Yeah, it's pretty messy.
Nicole: Which is exactly how it should be, right? Like in all relationships, parenting or not, right? Like we're coming together with two messy humans trying to build a relationship where we're both growing and it is always going to be messy. It's like, it's that dance where we step on each other's toes and we come back together into rhythm, right?
Sarah White: Thank you for that reminder. Yeah,
Nicole: and thank you for your, like, what you're doing with your children, right? To create that space because they then go on to do that for theirs, right? And continue, like, that's the power of love, right? And so let's get woo woo. That's the power of the love that you pass down, like the ripples, right?
Sarah White: Yeah, you're talking my language right now. I'm just over here melting.
Nicole: Well, because it is, I mean, especially hearing your parents, right. And like hearing that pain point of view and the, the, your own truth and the ways that you can't share that with them. And again, the empowerment there for that, but like, Ooh, the, the space that they are then creating for your children.
And the ways that that will then go on,
Sarah White: I mean, I have to say, I've seen such a dramatic shift in my relationship with my parents as I've stayed true to who I am, you know, they kind of are coming back in a way that it really just blows my mind because it's like some of my perceived projections of who they were.
It's like, as a 3 year old, that's what I'm perceiving, but maybe I couldn't see what they were really experiencing and now. They're fighting the vocabulary through the ways that I'm living and expressing with my kids will go into things that they were taught to never talk about and talk about them with me, you know, and that's that whole generational healing part.
That's that piece that changes. Humanity is we can look at. The hard things together and not know the answers, but, you know, there's conversations that I'd rather not have that have came to me from my parents recently where I'm like, shoot at the end of this. You're just a child to, you know, like, you didn't have everything you needed.
You were afraid you were going to have something taken away and you're afraid I was going to get hurt. You're trying to protect me. And that's not to justify any of the means that may have happened to so many of us, but it has really just. Given me a little more juice to to question and again, be curious.
Curiosity is 1 of my biggest words right now, because we're looking to everybody for answers. And I think a lot of the answers are inside.
Nicole: Yeah, I'm, I'm happy to hear that you're having those conversations and it makes me think about, yeah, like the generational divides. I mean, there's a lot wrong with the internet, right?
But there's a lot of good. And I think that part of that is like providing, you know, educational content about conversations and how to have those that maybe, yeah, like your kids have that, you know, You know, your parents, my parents did not have access to, right. And like the ways that that then is showing up.
And I guess it makes me think too about like this deeper level where it's like, it is so hard for us to see that with our parents. And so then how much harder it becomes to see that to the person that's causing harm, that's not even related to us biologically. And so then we're like that. Piece of shit person, whatever negative derogatory thing we want to throw out, versus like this view of seeing them as a child that is harmed and wounded, and like you said, does not discredit the harm that they're causing, but to like have that compassionate take is so hard.
Like we can barely do it for our parents, let alone the person that we see outside of our structures.
Sarah White: Let's be honest. Most of us can barely do it for ourselves, you know, to me, that's the juice is like There's no way you're going to be able to change outside. If you can't sit with inside, you know, I just think there's all of us inside of all of us.
Nicole: So, dare I say, we're all 1
Sarah White: all of us inside of all of us. And that might be also coming back to my studies, but, you know, in the studies, I just keep learning about. Especially with Tantra, it's not pushing away the dark or the light. It's not trying to get completely clean or to be completely dirty. It's not trying to like. Leave the world or be consumed by it.
It's leaving all of it. It's yes. It's yes. And it's no, we're going to, we're going to feel connected and we're going to feel loss. We're going to feel the ultimate moment of bliss with the divine, maybe a peak orgasm, and then we're going to feel the shame that came from the lack of connection afterwards, you know, and, and I've never liked that to be the answer.
I thought I was going to go towards ultimate bliss. You know, that was my goal. The goal was that, you know, shooting orgasm, but. I am finding some, some really deep resonance and pleasure with being okay with, like, starting to just ride the waves because the waves seem to be continuous.
Nicole: It's like the cheesy quote, right?
Like, it's not the destination. It's the journey, right? Like, we could apply that in so many different ways that if we're just like, yeah, I want to squirt and have a sort of experience that you miss all the, like, soft. delicate nature of pleasure that is possible in touch. But again, yeah, if our thoughts are running all that sort of, it's just so hard to come back to, you know?
Sarah White: Yes, I understand. I agree.
Nicole: I'm always trying to stay in the joy. Like that has been my activism, right? Is like, I, I talk about like, yeah, what does it mean to dream a different world? Like we see all this pain, we see all this suffering. What does it mean to dream that different world? And so I'm wanting to stay in the joy and the gratitude as a practice of activism.
But then, yeah, when I, I'm sad and have a bad day, you know, how can I stay in the dark and allow that to be there in a way that's not trying to like completely negate its presence. At least that's what I was thinking about and trying to integrate as you were talking about integrating both the light and the dark in that way.
Sarah White: Yeah, I, I think my dance is similar where I think my superpower is when I'm tapped into, like, the light of my heart, which that was, like, something that I, I was ashamed of growing up. I was so soft and sensitive, you know, tapped in, like, people would want to gravitate towards me. And so I, I learned how to create a shell.
And so my other side of that, my shadow that is like protection, pushing out, pushing everybody away, protecting myself. And so I go back and forth between. Yeah. Really being open and magnetizing people towards me and just letting my love flow because I have so much love to share and then protection lockdown and I allow myself to open and close, you know, like wings because.
It inevitably I need both in this world, you know, but I just, I love to love that part of myself again.
Nicole: That's a beautiful place to come back from and like to focus on the love. Like how can I show up with this person? I think intentions are so powerful, right? Intentions are so, so powerful. Even if we came into like difficult conversations with, um, people in our community and like, try to put that as our intention, that would change so much.
So I really love what you're saying about like coming back to the heart and, and yes, opening and closing that as you need, because we can't just be this open floodgate all the time. Like people can harm us. Like at times, disconnection is, is the way to have more connection to yourself. Right. So like, it's, it's definitely that fluid dance to it, but I, I feel very inspired by everything that you've been sharing about like coming back to the heart.
Sarah White: I feel inspired by you. Thank you for sharing this with me.
Nicole: Yeah, of course. I want to hold a little bit of space as we come toward the end of our time. I typically ask each guest in case there was something you wanted to share, if there was anything you wanted to share with the listeners that maybe we didn't get to.
Otherwise, I always have a closing question and I'll allow you to like plug for all of your artwork and everything later.
Sarah White: Yeah, um, I guess the only thing I would share just kind of around wanting to create a new world. Yeah, I recently received 40 acres of reparations in the Midwest and so I'm kind of just just putting it out there and calling in others that feel activated by a dream of, like, starting a relationship with the earth.
This land has been, you know, maybe not listen to for a while, you know, maybe some of the, the heart and beauty is kind of cut away to create agricultural practices, but now it will no longer be used that way. And so I'm kind of just spending time with it and figuring out how to create. Earth ship healing center, using all of this garbage that's been dumped in the woods there for generations, probably 50 years.
There's just so much and creating a space for people to come and rest and heal for free. So, that's my, that's my goal and that's my vision. And so I just want to put that out into the airways. If anybody has access to resources, or just even wants to dream and put some more energy into it, just send it my way.
Nicole: I got some chills again. May it be so.
Sarah White: Ashe. Yeah.
Nicole: So then the question I ask every guest on the podcast is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?
Sarah White: I would say being afraid of people not liking you. I think that, yeah, being afraid of what people think. I think we all know it's normal internally, but I just think I just, when I look at Instagram, it's like everybody's showing their most confident selves and I do the same often and like people are shocked when I speak about how afraid I am to not be loved, not be liked.
It's kind of where we started this conversation, you know? Yeah. That's, I wish more people could, um, know that it's normal to be scared. Connection. Yeah.
Nicole: All the time. All the time. Right. And I think it's, it's even harder if you've had past experiences where being your authentic self in whatever capacity that is resulted in disconnection, right?
Because then we have. Experience that shows us. Yeah, I can't do that here, right? So then it gets really hard. We're trying to like change our pathways and so like to have that. It makes a lot of sense.
Sarah White: Yeah. Yeah.
Nicole: I'm curious. How do you kind of ground in that for you?
Sarah White: I think I've just been like saying it more, you know, just kind of demystifying that I know that I feel secure, you know, just like I feel nervous that, you know, if I tell people what I really think, you know, if I create the stuff I really want to create that people won't like it.
Like me, you know, and then I feel better. It's just off my chest. I'm like, I said, this is what I feel.
Nicole: Yeah, totally. Yeah. And then being able to get that, like, feedback from other people where they give you maybe their perspective, which is, you know, typically much kinder than the 1 we have for ourselves.
Right? They see it much better in this light. And, and for me, like, I guess when I go into like, larger social groups, and I have, yeah, that feeling of like, Dear God, is everyone is, are people going to hate me, et cetera, et cetera. I usually like try to like tell myself, like, I belong here. I am loved. I belong here.
I am loved. I don't care how many times I have to say that again to myself, but like I do like as a pep talk, if I'm coming into a large new group, like as some sort of grounding. Cause yeah, it's hard.
Sarah White: If I can add one more thing, this makes me also just like with pleasure, I would want more people to know and understand that it's okay to not know what you like.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. You want to say more on that?
Sarah White: I mean, I'm still that's like, that's where I have to say I can be here. I am loved. It's okay that I don't know, like, over and over again, because the, the shame sometimes gets louder than the receptors in my body. And yeah, I feel like a lot of us are feeling that way, but overcompensating and, you know, acting and then.
The person on the other side can't really, really meet you where your pleasure center is. And so, yeah, it's okay to not know and be in play.
Nicole: Yes, absolutely. That play perspective is huge, right? Cause there's, there's no wrong way to play, right? Like you can't mess up at play. And so having that, and I think that if we were to like, look at our pleasure as like an, you know, expansive.
Sky full of stars and distant galaxies that we don't know the end of, right? Like there's a space where that could become, Oh my God, I don't know it all. I don't know it all. I don't know it all. Versus like, wow, I don't know. And there is a whole beautiful space to explore and to learn more. So I think that frame again can be so powerful because like, I'm still figuring out what I like every single day and it gets clearer and clearer, but I'm still like, what?
What distant galaxy is out there? Cause I had no idea. And like, what joy there is in that through that like different framing with play.
Sarah White: A hundred percent. Yes. I feel like I could have a chess the size of a house filled with all different knickknacks and, you know, potential things to play with. And. Yeah, it would only be the beginning.
So I'm excited to be here.
Nicole: And I'm, I'm just so happy for your kids that have you as a mom that is doing all this to like create a new narrative. That's really powerful.
Sarah White: Hmm. Thank you.
Nicole: Of course. Of course. Where would you want to plug so people can find, yeah, your new land, all of your work. Yeah. Where can people connect with you?
Sarah White: Um, so, uh, I'm on Instagram at Aquarius Sun, Venus, also at New Neuro Studio, which is like the, my Healing Space. So that's, um, at N-U-N-E-U-R-O Studio, you can find my website. It's neon, so SOU l.co. And from there you can look up Huck. communion. That's the name of the project. Um, I should have more linkages going soon with that, but, um, right now I have a YouTube video that kind of like explains what I'm looking to do and kind of shows the land itself.
So you can see the blank slate, um, of, of something that's just starting to come together. And yeah, I'm really excited to do beautiful things there. Yes. I'm
Nicole: excited for you. Yeah. Thank you for coming on the show and sharing about your heart and your practices and the future that you see.
Sarah White: Thank you for having me and thank you for being who you are.
Oh, thank you. I appreciate that.
Nicole: If you enjoyed today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast. And head on over to modernanarchypodcast. com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I want to thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.