Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Nicole. On today's episode, we have Marcia B. Join us for a conversation on the
topic of All about communicating your desires. Together, we talk about chasing versus becoming available to pleasure. The vulnerability of claiming your desire. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday.
My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy, and I am also the founder of The Pleasure Practice, supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships. Dear listener, oh my gosh, relationship anarchy, what a very, very, very special topic to me.
Dear listener, if you are tuning in on Wednesday, the day that this is released, then today is the day that I am defending my dissertation, the first research study to ever explore relationship anarchy and. I'm feeling very sentimental about it. Wow. I mean, I started this journey four years ago. It's wild to think that I have been researching the phenomena of relationship anarchy for the last four years of my life and to have it all culminate in a day of a dissertation defense is feeling really, really, really special.
It means I'm one step closer to becoming Dr. Nicole, which is absolutely wild to think about, uh, and all because of the clinical work that I've done, but also this research, right? Contributing to the field and changing the future research that we'll build off of this. And I promise you, dear listener, that I will also make an episode exploring my research and giving it to you.
So, uh, Soon, very, very soon, I will share my dissertation slides and what I talked about during my presentation with all of you relationship anarchists and dear listener, what is four years but a blink of an eye, right? When you really think about it. And, uh, I'm really excited because I'm just getting started.
Four years. Let's see where we're at when I've been studying relationship anarchy for another 40 years. And, dear listener, I hope that you will be along with me for the ride for the many years to come of studying relationships, our pleasure, our joy. Our erotic connection, our desires, and relationship anarchy, this practice of deconstructing internalized power structures to design your own relationships.
Oh, dear listener, I am going to be studying that. Uh, for a lifetime, truly a lifetime, and I hope you are enjoying the journey as much as I am. All right, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and resources at modernanarchypodcast. com, linked in the show notes below.
And I want to say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters. You are supporting the long term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible for all people, so thank you. If you want to join the Patreon community, get exclusive access into my personal exploration and research, then you can head on over to patreon.
com slash modernanarchypodcast, also linked in the show notes below. And with that, dear listener, please know that I am sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode. So first question I ask every guest is how would you like to introduce yourself to the listeners?
Marcia B: Uh, so my name is Marsha Bechinski or Marsha B, and I am a consent educator, relationship coach, communication coach, and my background is as a sex educator, and all of these things sort of come together in an interesting way and have over the course of my career.
I'm the co founder of Cuddle Party. I've written a book called Creating Consent Culture, a handbook for educators. And I do a lot of workshops and group coaching and one on one coaching pretty much around that moment when you realize that you want something and then you have to talk about it.
Nicole: Which is in all aspects of our lives when you really think about that, right?
Marcia B: Yeah. I mean, I started out as a sex educator and You know, I was really loving the work, and I was doing a lot of, you know, HIV prevention, this was back in the 90s and early 2000s. And, you know, we would talk about, like, using condoms and, you know, different prevention things. This was before PrEP. I'm showing my age.
Sure. And, uh, and it was really interesting because I noticed that there's a point where you have to acknowledge that you want to have certain kinds of sex. Thanks. And in order to have the conversation about condoms or testing or what have you, you have to be able to acknowledge that you want it. And that became kind of my fixation.
And then in, um, 2004, 20 years ago this month, I co-founded Cuddle Party. And that was a non-sexual event that was around boundaries and communication and asking for what you want and. Yeah, I noticed the same thing. It's like, Oh, if you're cuddling with somebody and you want to change positions, or if you want to initiate a cuddle, or if you want to, you know, have some kind of specific interaction with somebody, you still have that moment of bare vulnerability where you have to acknowledge that you want something and then find a way to communicate it.
And then I did some polyamory coaching for a while. I've been polyamorous since 1999 and in my own life. And I've been coaching since like 2005, six, something like that. And it was the same thing. It was, Oh, yeah, I want to, I want to open up our relationship. I want to date this person. I want to go on vacation with someone else.
I want to have both of you come to my birthday dinner, whatever the thing was. And then again, there's this bare moment of vulnerability where you have to acknowledge that you want something. And so this has become, how do you even notice what you want? How do you trust it? How do you value it? And then how do you communicate it?
Has become my whole career.
Nicole: So good. So essential and so hard, right? So hard. Particularly for myself, I'm just already thinking about the ways that it's been hard, you know, coming from a purity culture background just to know what I want with sex at all, right? You know, let alone to like stepping into multiple people and what it means to feel into that and all the uh, Conditioning for me as a woman of people pleasing and oh, okay.
Wow. I'm finding this new person. That's really lovely. And I want to make space for them, which means I need to create a little bit of space from here, which means I got to ask for something that might hurt the, you know, like, Oh my God, how do you, Oh yeah.
But you're, you know, so, you know, I know it really well. I know it personally. I know it professionally. I hang out in that space a lot. And I was even thinking like, not erotically to the, the air of consent in terms of, you know, I had a really difficult day in my work, or maybe I heard something that was really heavy as a therapist, right?
And I'm like, Oh, I need, I need some space to process. And instead of coming to someone and being like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And like giving them this big thing. Maybe I check in with them. Hey. Right. Are you at first before I just jumped this a large societal problem, you know, at your feet.
And so, like, even the consent of that, of meeting that space to process, but also having to check in with people to see if they even have that space. Right?
Marcia B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's that's such a crucial part of relating and the world is so complicated and we are living these sort of atomized lives in so many ways.
So that when we come back together, it's a lot of times not the case that. Right. The people that we are close to know what has been going on, you know, all day long or all week long, and there can be some really heavy things. And it's like, okay, some people just do have that capacity most of the time. And then, you know, I'm thinking of a couple of people in my life where I always have to check in before I launch into whatever I read on the news or, you know, and kind of wrestling with internally because they just get stuck.
They're so sensitive and they get buffeted about. And I'm like, no, I want to be, I want to be attuned to that sensitivity. That sensitivity is one of the things I like about them. And I have to be really thoughtful in how I engage with them because then we can both go off the rails. And it's like, well, I didn't get what I wanted.
Cause I didn't even check in to see if it was available beforehand.
Nicole: Which I love that frame though. Taking the intentionality to look at the ways that power dynamics are inherent in all aspects of our life and being able to be very intentional about what consent means in those spaces. Oof. I mean, there's such a juiciness to that level of intentionality when you start to move through the world thinking about that frame.
Marcia B: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
Nicole: And before we started today, I was feeling this desire to start off the conversation with holding space for what your liberation journey has been with sex. And I'm curious, you know, and relationships. Yeah, I'm curious if you'd be willing to share a little bit of that journey, some of the ups and the downs and the messiness for both me and all of the listeners today.
Sure, how much time do we have? We have an hour and a half, so this is your space, my dear. You get to take it up how you want and I will listen and go with you. It's an existential unfolding of your narrative in the moment. Yeah.
Marcia B: I love this question because I feel like there's so many pieces to it and even reflecting on it briefly, you know, I grew up in the South in a conservative Catholic family and My mom was an RN and my mom worked, she worked in a, um, social services agency that worked primarily with youth who were in the foster care system, who were teen mothers, who, um, you know, basically like were, you know, underprivileged, under resourced, however you want to frame that.
The 90s framing on some of that was not the best, and she, she On the one hand was very conservative in her beliefs and on the other hand really truly believed in giving my brother and me fact based sex education and it wasn't necessarily pleasure oriented, but it was I was I could ask any question and I would get an honest answer about.
How bodies worked and how babies were made and all that kind of stuff. And from a really young age, like, she explained how periods worked and I turned around and explained it to my younger brother, like, two days
later. So, like, I think I was, like, born to be a sex educator. Sure. Yeah. And, um, so there was that piece.
And then there was some intergenerational things that I won't go into too much. But, you know, her mother was obviously also very Catholic and conservative, or maybe not obviously, but was also very Catholic and conservative. And, Sexual shame am rampant in that generation. And my mom really wanted to. Her emphasis was on us having a relationship.
She wanted to make sure that I could bring her anything and that it wouldn't break our our relationship as mother and daughter because that was not what had happened with her mother. And so it. It was this complicated thing for her because I was deeply curious about sex,
and she was like, oh god, what have I done to some degree?
So I would not say that it was like a very liberatory environment in terms of, um, feminism or, uh, pleasure based sexuality or anything like that, but there was this foundational, fact based openness that I think was very, um, Crucial and also because she did have such a background and working with basically children who had been pretty terribly abused.
Another thing that she was very big on and also in her own history to another thing. She was really big on was my brother and I having me. Back up if we set boundaries with our body about our bodies. And so she told me when I was really young, you know, if there's something that your friends want you to do that you don't want to do, you can say no, and you can blame me.
Just tell me what you're blaming me for. So I don't accidentally out you. And so that sense that that twofold sense of, like, I can. I could get fact based information and my mom has my back and less explicitly, but also felt like my dad had my back. I think really set the stage for things when I started to get very curious about pleasure and non traditional relating and my own You know, exploration of my sexuality and my own sexual orientation and all of those things.
And then I went to college and, you know, got a very practical degree that I don't use. And, uh, but I, I had a certificate in women's studies. And so that was also like a big, crucial thing of like, Oh, wait, hang on. And I had this, another thing about my family growing up. Um, I give my parents a lot of credit, even though like, they were not happy with where I ended up, but they did set the stage in some very positive ways.
Um, You know, my parents did not have any kind of feminist framework for the world and would not have identified that way. Um, but they were deeply, deeply pragmatic. And so, like, my dad did the cooking and my brother and I were, like, raised the same. We were really close in age. We shared clothes. We shared toys.
We, you know. So everything was gender wise was very interchangeable, not from a not from an ideological perspective, but from a like really pragmatic, like, why would we do this? This is that's buying separate toys is expensive. And so when I came into my adulthood, and I started to really start to see in an intimate context, the ways that heteronormativity played out in other families, I was like, Oh, God, what is this nonsense?
This seems like a whole weird performance. that is expensive and time consuming and limiting. And yeah, it just was really interesting to me. And then that was feminism was my way of making sense of how, on the one hand, my upbringing felt very egalitarian from a non ideological perspective. And then being like, Wait, what is this nonsense about the purity and being in the south?
I was surrounded by this, like, deep purity culture that was very fear based and very anti pleasure and anti frankly, anti woman and certainly anti queer. So, uh, that's, I mean, I guess I would, I would say those are the sort of the foundational pieces. And then I moved to New York City and I found a community of, of course, non monogamous.
So, Queer and, uh, that took me and I was, I was becoming a sex educator and I started Cuddle Party and, you know, co founded it and all of those things kind of unfolded into a personal and professional journey of, you know, Ending up in California, living in a relationship, anarchist, yeah,
Nicole: of course, of course,
Marcia B: as one does, of course,
Nicole: you're on the right show,
Marcia B: amazing, amazing, so, yeah, I don't know, there's a, it's, it's an interesting thing to think about it, because in some ways I feel very privileged.
To not have had to unpack certain things and then otherwise I very deeply have the strain of like conservatism and like certainly the ways that like white supremacy has impacted my life and just like all of the sort of normative American things. That you get when you're kind of raised in that soup.
I've certainly had to unpack a lot of that, and I'm still unpacking a lot of that, and will probably forever be unpacking that. But the things that have guided me along the way, you know, an orientation towards pleasure in my body, not just like what sounds like a good idea, or sounds hedonistic, or sounds fun, but like what Feels good, which includes, like, slowing down and resting, much to my 20 something chagrin.
Uh, when I was in my 20s, I was like, why? Stopping, that seems bad. Um, yes, and also includes, um, kindness and care, and that, you know, I feel like having an ethic of kindness and care and trying to figure out. What that means while taking care of myself and not just falling into people pleasing or some of the other gendered or intergenerational patterns has Been really like just those 2 things alone can have been a lot of my life's work at this point of just what does it mean to to orient towards pleasure?
And what does it mean to orient towards kindness and care?
Nicole: Yeah, thank you for sharing so much of your story and the pieces to getting here. 1st is already just thinking about how we grow in relationships, right? I mean, The culture that you grew up with your family and the egalitarian nature of it is surrounded by the purity culture.
I'm sure. Yeah, that was like a very harsh temperature shock. And then to make it to New York where you have this whole community, which it just reminds me of like going down the rabbit hole, right? Once you hop there at first, what do these people do? What, what, what? And then you slowly start to do it and they grow around you and kind of help you in that process as you.
Yeah. Unpack the psychedelic journey of, uh, deconstructing so many deep laden ideas about love and intimacy, but we do that in community, right? They hold us and they, they pull us in when we're crying about the confusion. And yeah, I was just thinking about like, in terms of following the body, I mean, oh, and pleasure.
For me, that's been such a moving target. Just when I think I have figured it out, it just floats away. And I'm like, okay, so where are we going now, dear pleasure? I'm curious if that's been a little bit of your journey with it all too.
Marcia B: Well, I think, I mean, the thing about pleasure is it's an experience in our nervous systems, right?
It's like, it's like being happy or being sad. If you chase it, Yeah, kind of runs away from you a little bit in my experience. So a lot of the experience has been, and this is really had a strong impact relationally for me is just learning to notice, like, what is true right now. And I love hedonism, but I don't, uh, I have learned to, uh.
slightly distrust it because things can be really fun and not be nourishing. And that is the important distinction that took me a long time to learn. And I also, in terms of pleasure, you know, it's also, I feel like challenging to talk about pleasure because people automatically assume we're talking about sex or orgasm.
And, um, For me, it's much broader than that. It's like, it's kind of leads into mindfulness, almost enjoying the food I'm eating, enjoying that my sheets on my bed, enjoying the texture of the clothing that I'm wearing, enjoying the sun when it is out. And so I find that as I have attention on those things, the pleasure becomes available, even when I'm having a migraine or I'm in pain or I'm suffering about something else or, or struggling with a relationship or in tears about the state of the world or whatever, there continues to be pleasure available, um, rather than chasing it where it's like, what is the fun thing?
What is the, what is sort of more hedonistic thing? Um, you know, I'm all about sustainable hedonism.
Nicole: Yeah, exactly.
Marcia B: There is a distinction for me between pleasure and hedonism.
Nicole: Sure. Yeah, if you sit at the buffet table and you only eat pie on pie on pie on pie. Right, exactly. You're going to suffer even though it tastes good.
And then you might have it.
Marcia B: And you'll miss out on some other things too. Like what about the lobster over there? Exactly, exactly.
Nicole: Or the asparagus, right? Like it's just like, ah, you know. Um, and yeah, I guess I do feel the joy of, you know, the dress I'm wearing and the tea that I have in my. Hand and how beautiful that is that pleasure feels very abundant and here for me.
So I guess For me, it's been the it has been the eroticism that continues to shift like, you know, yeah for sure, right? Just like whoa. Whoa, you know Coming from purity culture. I was fantasizing about marrying a pastor, right? I was like, oh right and this is in a heteronormative frame like oh i'm gonna marry this man who's so close to god and he's gonna lead me and oh, you know and You Just you get out of that and then that shifts and what you start to dream of and what brings you that that life force of eroticism continues to shift for me.
Oh, yeah. Right? I think about kink, the first things I explored to what I explore now. It's just like that, I guess, is the moving target that I continue to kind of like sit with the unknown of.
Marcia B: Yeah, the, you know, speaking of the liberatory journey, one of the things that happened for me was in college. I met somebody who was very kinky, you know, very young, figuring things out.
They were very sweet about it. And we did move to New York together and we joined the English Beatles Society, which is a kink organist. It's the oldest kink organization, I think, in North America. They've been around forever. And, um, I remember going to meetings as like a 22, 23 year old and just like, I was just wrapped.
I didn't, the parties weren't even the most interesting thing. I just wanted to go hear what other people were talking. I am a nerd about sex. Like I wanted to just know what everybody was doing and what they were into and why and what was cool about it for them. And I remember two really interesting things from that time and they're very unrelated.
But one was that. If you look at the lives of the saints, there's a whole lot of them that are doing self flagellation and doing like these very intense physical and like physically intense things in order to access states of ecstasy, which I thought was so interesting as somebody who does not really experience myself as a masochist.
I was like, Oh, tell me more. But I really was curious. I wanted to know about it. I was like, tell me more. And the other thing was, That there was the saying that like, Oh, whatever you say, you will never do six months later. It's going to be your favorite thing.
Nicole: Exactly.
Marcia B: It was such a, it was such a wild, the first one thing was such a wild thing coming from this like very Catholic background of like, Oh, this is.
Physiology like this is this is like our brains ability to access these altered states of consciousness through real and then you start learning about ultra marathoners and people who like do cold plunges and like don't identify as sexual masochists at all, but they're still like, basically hacking the endorphin system.
And you're like, oh, yeah, this all makes sense. And, you know, you can. Reach these sort of altered states and, like, is it pleasure? I don't know. It's also pleasure and pain are such subjective things in terms of, like, how the meanings that we attach to the experiences that we're having. But then the other piece about what you.
I think you're never going to be into it. It's like, you know, it's not, it's not necessarily six months later. It's not always true. Right. But I've seen that in myself. I've seen that in, in other people. I'm currently dating somebody right now where I'm like, I never thought I'd be into any of this. And I'm so into this specifically with you.
Right. Exactly. And so it's this interesting thing where like having that orientation towards mindfulness and curiosity and like, Knowing that pleasure is not something we can chase. It's sort of something we have to be and make ourselves available to. Right. And the sort of like, just ask, like, not just asking questions and that sort of disingenuous.
Internet way, but like literally just continuing to ask questions and have curiosity about your own experience and other people's experience leads to like weird little eddies of pleasure that you would have never gotten to intellectually on your own or like thinking your way through it or, or following.
You know, a any kind of set path. It's just sort of like, oh, here I am. This is fine. And I'm enjoying myself and then having those processes of self check in other check in and that gets into the consent stuff. Right? Um, and and relational skills in general. But yeah, I I'm very tickled in some ways by and annoyed.
Yeah, about how much pleasure can be a moving target. And then, of course, our bodies change. It's like, oh, I figured this thing out. And now I can't even do that position anymore, because now I'm 20 years older. And the things that I like used to love doing it, you know, however late at night, I'm like, can I be in bed by 10?
No, I know.
Nicole: Exactly.
Marcia B: But that's also part of it is that I think that, you know, the way we're sold Sexuality is like, you know, these three tricks and this one special whatever and, and, and also this idea of like knowing what you want. And I really push against the idea of knowing what you want. It's more about noticing what you want because it arises.
I like to make a distinction between what we like which are the patterns we notice over time and what we want. And what we like and what we want may not be the same things. I like sushi. I like chocolate cake. That doesn't mean I want them for breakfast. That doesn't mean I want them for dinner. It doesn't mean I want them at the same time.
I just like them. And if I don't know what I want, I can guess off of one of the things I like And I may get to something that's a pleasurable experience, or it may not hit the mark that day, because maybe I'm craving something, I don't know, saltier, or soupier, or whatever.
Nicole: Mm hmm.
Marcia B: So, noticing what you want versus knowing what you want has been pretty revelatory for me in my life.
Nicole: Sure. Yeah, it's like, uh, the only constant is change, right? Yeah, exactly. What does it mean to embrace that in pleasure, eroticism, relationships, you know, more areas of our lives? Mm hmm. I loved what you were saying about it coming back to a space of curiosity. Okay. I'm curious. How is this landing for me?
And again, even consent, right? Like something could land today and not land tomorrow and you are not stuck in that. Right. And so creating consent, even for your own internal experience, right. That landed yesterday, but not today. And that's okay. Through that curious, You know, unfolding of your own experience, not holding yourself to things in the past that, you know, you said you would never do or did and now no longer want, right?
That's going to be a continual relationship with yourself, right? Of checking in and exploring with curiosity about what it is that's bringing you that life force, that vitality.
Marcia B: Yeah. And, you know, you're talking about checking in with yourself and things landing. And I think a lot about how context affects boundaries.
I see this a lot when people are negotiating, they're not monogamy, but I see it a lot all over the place and it was really kind of a thing that became apparent to me watching and experiencing literally tens of thousands of people, cuddling that our boundaries. Change according to context, right? And an example I give a lot when I'm teaching is so like, I love having my scalp massaged.
Maybe you have a favorite activity. And it's like, okay, so you imagine that you're like, getting this fantastic scalp, scalp massage, and you're just like, oh, it's so good. It's like exactly the right pressure. It's, you know, it's Not messing up your curls. It's all of the things you love. Uh, they just intuitively know where to put their hands.
And then, so that's an activity. Now, imagine that your lover is the one that's doing it, like this, a person that you, or somebody that you just love deeply, your closest friend, your mom, whoever, just like this person, this super special person who like really is like doing it and like getting it exactly right.
And that shifts it a little bit because you have more context. Now, imagine. that it's the same scalp massage, it's still this like very perfect scalp massage, but it's a stranger on the bus who didn't ask. Right. Right, and you're like, I can't relax, what's happening, my brain is going, it's the same activity.
Totally. But your boundaries are going to be different. Your boundaries are going to be different based on where you are in your cycle, and how hungry you are, and how well slept you are, and whether you feel trusting of the other involved. All of these things are going to change. What you want and what your boundaries are and so desire and boundaries change according to context and Emily Nagoski talks about this and come as you are about the contextual nature of responsive desire, like, taking in all of the dishes done.
And, you know, is everything taken care of for tomorrow? I can't get into the mood until all of these things are taken care of.
Nicole: Right?
Marcia B: But yeah, context is something that I think is very. Under discussed because again, there's this emphasis on, like, knowing and desire and boundaries being static. And I'm like, they're not they just aren't
Nicole: sure.
Yeah. And I think this is where, um, I do work with psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, and this is where the framework start to feel very static. In terms of, you know, we're embarking upon an altered state of consciousness, right? When we're in play and eroticism and pleasure, we're hitting that flow state where we can try and turn off that default mode network a little bit to be in flow, whether that's with ourselves, with people, et cetera, et cetera, right?
And in the psychedelic experience, we are actively, you know, you know, Um, co creating, letting go to a substance, um, that is going to turn off that default mode network. And so, in the psychedelic space, they talk a lot about set and setting. The set and setting of pleasure. Whoa. Right. Like the setting. Right.
With Emily talking about like whether we've done the dishes, who's this person that you're connecting with in terms of your safety with them, your connection to your own body, in terms of the setting and the mindset, right? I mean, if you're. Doing non monogamy and you have a don't ask, don't tell, man, that mindset is going to feel real different because you're carrying a level of like, well, God, I can't tell my partner about this because it's going to hurt them and you
know, versus a, Oh, hey, my partner have, you know, and I have my other partners and I have very clear boundaries are of open dialogue about our dynamics with other people. And so I can say, Oh, I had this great experience and we explored that. And it felt this, you know, during the actual experience, you are carrying that with your mind set.
And so there's existentially as well as the setting and, and your own comfort in your body. You're right on the bus. Like, I cannot. Relax, just like I wouldn't want to drop, you know, a psychedelic experience on the bus because it's too intense, right? You know, like, no, no, I want to be out in nature at home or in a dungeon, right?
Like, I don't know where I'm doing sex these days, but like that sort of experience. I think the mindset and setting is so essential in terms of whether we're able to access pleasure. And so for me, these paradigms start to feel very similar.
Marcia B: Very similar. Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.
Nicole: Yeah. And yeah, I mean, I think there's more to unpack with that in terms of consent and the safety around all of it in terms of where you're able to go again, like the don't ask, don't tell being like a key piece of that, that I don't think ever works in, in full actuality is, uh, like you said, even when we started, right, I want to go on vacation with my partners.
How do you do that? I don't know. Like you can't. And so just like, The consent nature around what you're allowed to do or not allowed to do is part of what you're carrying into that space, which subsequently determines kind of how much pleasure you can have in that container.
Marcia B: Yeah, and I mean, I want to I want to sort of make space for the people for him.
That does work. There are people who get off on secrecy. And that might be, it's not my thing, but it may be your thing, or, you know, and I've, I've seen relationships that have gone on for 20, 30 years that have had a don't ask, don't tell policy. And, you know, whether it works is not really for me to say is whether it works for them.
And so that's the thing that I find endlessly fascinating with these things, because I have very strong opinions and values about how I want to do. My relationships and I have, uh, values and I have, uh, biases in my teaching about it because I have an orientation towards openness and transparency.
Nicole: Yeah,
Marcia B: and that's not what works for everybody.
And I know I would be carrying in like, oh, my God, I can't tell my partner. That means I can't relax into this. Like, I would absolutely be doing that. Like, it doesn't it does not work for me. And I, my 1 attempt at it. Granted was when I was 18,
Nicole: right? Exactly.
Marcia B: I was like, oh, yeah, my college, my high school boyfriend went to college.
He was a year older than me. We had a don't ask, don't tell policy. It was a nightmare for both of us. Uh, right.
And like, did we do much? Probably not. I mean, certainly not by, you know, our standard, my standards now, but it was. It was this, it was this level of like, complexity and, and, oh, I want to be close to you and I can't tell you this major thing that happened in my life that I want to unpack and figure out.
And yeah, so that really doesn't work for me, but there are people for whom that is the thing. And, you know, I've seen it work in, uh, in my career and, uh, it is endlessly interesting to me how different. People work like how different we're wired sometimes and how like also things can like work for a long time and then something in the ecosystem changes and then it doesn't work anymore.
And I find that to be really interesting to the number of times I've had people be like, you know, I've been polyamorous for 15 years and I just I don't think I can do it anymore. Like, sure, it was, but it's such a huge part of my identity and. Like, who am I if I'm not polyamorous or non monogamous or what have you?
And it's like, this is stuff that in the beginning of my career, you know, I didn't have the longevity to see. And now that I'm older, I'm like, oh, yeah, there is in the same way. We were talking about pleasure shifting. It's like identity shifting and and what works for you in a relationship. Can be really, really different.
Um, I have some friends who are, you know, they've been married God forever and they haven't had sex. And as far as I know, uh, in probably 12 years and they both in the beginning of their marriage were like, I would never be in a marriage. Where I wasn't having sex and then, like, they kind of reached this point where they're like, we're not actually that sexually compatible, but we don't want to get divorced.
Like, is there another way? And it's like, you think you know what you would and would not ever do and then life happens at you and then you're like, Wait, I value this thing, and then that goes into that unpacking of our assumptions of what relationships are, what they mean, what they're supposed to be, and you're like, wow, okay, I guess I'm in this don't ask, don't tell relationship, and it is working for me, or I guess I am in a sexless marriage, and it doesn't seem to be a problem because we have lovers, we get those needs met elsewhere, and you're a great nesting partner, and why would I want to bust that up just because we're having sex, you know, like, it's, it's so interesting, and I love the Love being, you know, 25 years into my own personal poly journey and, you know, I always joke.
I'm like, I've been doing this since the late 20th century, um, and I don't feel like an elder, but people keep started have started calling me when I'm like, no, I know who I'm talking to, who are my elders, um. But that arc and that like, Oh, what happens when menopause happens? What happens when the kids are out of the house?
Finally, there's a lot of stuff about how to navigate the stuff when the kids are young. What about when the kids are out of the house and what does it mean to, to start swinging in your sixties? And what does it mean to, to like become monogamous after 15 years of. Polyamory, and I am just never going to get bored of these questions.
I say, I say, but who knows where I'll be in 20 years. Maybe they don't get bored. I don't know.
Nicole: I doubt it. Honestly. I mean, again, like, from the therapy side, thinking just about like the existential worlds that people have. Right? So every single human has a different connection, even to the word Polyamory and what it means to them or what it suggests to mean, right?
And so whenever you're working with someone, it's a whole world up there in their head. A whole universe of meaning making. And so the, you know, approach that maybe we have with one person might not work at all. with another person who's doing similar things purely because of their existential world of relationships, what's been modeled to them, their values, their dreams.
And so I think anytime that we get to sit across from someone, it is an honor just to peer into their universe of meaning making and hear where they're going with it. Yeah. And so the, the ways that it unfolds for each person is so unique. And, you know, there's people where Cheating is ongoing and they go to their deathbed with that and thrive without ever talking about that right to their other partners.
And so I think there's a lot of different ways that people can thrive in different situations. Right. And it's, it makes me start to feel a little tumbled up and knots. Cause yeah, when I think about the don't ask, don't tell like, What do you do when your partner asked what are you doing on a Tuesday and you're not supposed to tell right and it's like okay I run the white lie which I guess is ethically okay because that's what you asked for in our framework but I am now like right so it's.
How do you just have plans
Marcia B: like i've got plans
Nicole: right exactly so it gets real complicated but yeah who are we to sit back and say. What is wrong and right? Do you know what I mean? So we sit back and we allow each person to unfold that in their own journey existentially. I'm not God. I'm not here to write.
I don't know.
Marcia B: I thought I knew. I don't.
Nicole: I do think, I do think consent though is important, obviously. Right. And that's the piece of the cheating that doesn't get talked about versus a framework of don't ask, don't tell where it is inherently. Then I would assume giving the for that. Oh, I just generally have plans white lie because the larger framework of consent is to not ask or tell.
So then it's allowing that space. But I just think often about how, oh, you know, freedom and what does it mean for us to live in a world of relational possibilities as a relationship anarchist and the liberation of our intimacy right across all different ways? Because When I was growing up very Christian and had this view of monogamy, these harsh boundaries where I couldn't be in the room with any sort of male because that was too tempting according to everything I taught, right?
Which meant I had no male friends, etc, etc, right? Like that paradigm of worldview at the time I would have said is my identity. This is who I am. This is who I am. To be where I'm at now and then to look back at that framework and ask deeper questions about whether I had free will at that time in my life, because the frame was so created for me.
And this is where I hear my existential professor saying, you know, we have free will with what's within our existential awareness. And I'm like, cool, Dr. Dubose. That's great. Like, I agree. I did have free will within my existential awareness, but that awareness was shaped by purity culture, like, shit. Like, that awareness option, you know?
And so, I just think so much about these movements as we're flowing through them, how much, Our consciousness is shaped by the collective consciousness of what's possible. And so there are so many lives out there and looking at my past too, as well. We're like, I don't know if I really had freedom just because the world of what was presented to me as options was so limited.
Marcia B: Well, when we're talking about purity culture, it's like, it's not just that it's limited, it is designed to curtail. People in general and women in particular's freedom like it is that is the design of it in order to benefit a small select group of men at the top and it's not, you know, it certainly is not hashtag all men because men suffer under patriarchy to write like this is a known thing.
And so when we think about like to be a free will only a free will under oppression do you have free will. You know, you implicitly pick up the lessons that you're not supposed to hang out with those kids because they're this class background or that race. You know, do you have free will? Like, you know, it is.
And when there are larger societal structures that are designed to, you know, Limit freedom, because on the one hand, freedom is actually terrifying, and on the other hand, like, a lot of people really benefit when your freedom is limited. Sure, it's very clear on how to live and worship God.
Nicole: X, Y, Z, do this, good girl, good, go to heaven, great, easier.
Marcia B: Yeah, and even if you're not in that sort of a, as a, uh, strict in a, like, localized community way, like, You know, we live in America. We're in the middle of the empire that is very much designed to funnel money and resources to people at the top. And we're relatively in the middle of that pile. And so we get some of that benefit and then we don't get some of that benefit.
And then it's like, how do we make choices about relationships, about ethics, about sure, you know, what products we consume and, you know, in a system that is. Not really doesn't care about us in particular, but is very invested in most of our class of people. I don't necessarily just mean economic class. I mean, just like our group, you know, most of the people in the middle being sort of like benefiting enough that they don't want to overthrow the thing for the people at the top.
Right? So there's perks. And then there's these other sort of like, complicity and, um, limits on what we're supposed to do. And then you get this narrative of freedom where, like, freedom means you can, like, do whatever the hell you want to whoever the hell you want with no consequences. I'm like, well, that's not a definition of freedom I want to engage with.
That's not liberatory. Um, and I'm much more interested in, like, what does it mean to actually strive for, because I don't think it's something necessarily that's going to be achieved in my lifetime, but, like, strive for liberation in all these different ways. And like form alliances with people who are doing a different part of that liberation puzzle.
Without necessarily trying to take it all on all at the same time.
Nicole: No. Because you can't. It's impossible. It's too big.
Marcia B: No.
Nicole: I am one drop of water in a large ocean of activists that are creating rights beyond me, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. And yeah, we would die, burn out if we tried to take it all on ourselves.
And so the joy of like holding hands as we come together to do this, and I mean, even just thinking about the paradigms of, you know, clear paths, I think about the relationship escalator, right? It's like, This very clear, like, Hey, you're going to go to school. You're going to get this and you're going to get out and get a job and drive and have the two kids, you know, and it's like, ah, okay.
Another thing that we all have to watch, you know, like other systems of oppression, right? We have to watch the ways that they're internalized deep within our psyche, you know, and internalized judgment towards homophobia, internalized judgment towards mononormativity, right? Like all of that is deep within the psyche.
And so I'm curious if, you know, For myself, I think the most sadistic fantasy that I've had is, and of course it does work with some people, but I know it does not work for me and what I want to do, so I'm naming that, but like, this deep sadistic fantasy of like, when I'm falling in love with a new person within my relationship anarchy world of multiple beautiful people, and I love all, oh my god, so gorgeous, but I get new relationship energy, I get excited, and then my brain goes, Nicole, what if this could be the one for all the other lovers and go here?
And I feel like that's like the deepest internalized sadistic fantasy that I keep writing again and again to be like, ah, once this new relationship energy wears off, it's no, you know, and you have to ride that like fucking painful process of like deconstructing the notebook and Taylor Swift and like all of it, damn it every time I go, just make it stop, make it stop.
Marcia B: Yeah. No, I totally hear you. And it's funny because, you know, for me, my version is like, it's not necessarily monogamy, but it's like, the wedding. And I don't even necessarily want to get married. Like, if I'm really honest with myself, I would get married if the math made sense economically. Like, I don't want kids.
So there's not a lot of benefit there for me with marriage and I can have commitments without state being involved, but the wedding, I love planning a party. So I'm like, Oh, but you know, that, that deep unconscious, like, yeah, but that'll be the party. Right. And I'm like, but you don't even want, you don't want that, but you want it.
I want it. Even though I don't want it. And then like, did I get into this thing? It's like, Ooh, are you the one that I get? And the party. Do I want to marriage with this person? And if I do, like, do I want to party? And also, why can't I have like commitment ceremonies with anybody? I want to make it just unpacking.
Even just that tiny piece. Yeah. It's so It's wild in there, man. It is wild in there,
Nicole: absolutely. And then I try to think about, like, okay, that's, that's your existential narrative, my existential narrative, and I, I don't live for other people's existential narratives, of course, but I do think of, oh wow, so if I do have this party, this is going to mean something very specific to my grandmother.
Marcia B: Right.
Nicole: Who's in a radically different generation. And so when she looks at me doing this act, like, and again, I'm not living for her, but I do think about that of like, Oh, say I do want to have a ceremony of love, whatever I want to call it. Like what does it mean to my grandmother or that person's, you know, mother and all that stuff is fun.
And I think for me it's funny because at the beginning of the journey, every time I bowed out to this, like, what if this could be the one it was like, yeah, maybe monogamy maybe. And now it's like. No, what if this is the one I swing with, you know, like, so I'm just like, you know, like, there is no going back to monogamy now in this brain.
It's like swinging totally play party. Yeah. You know, and so I'm only excited to see what, you know, it's like, it's like a psychedelic trip every time. Like, man, you just like, oh, Where's the floor? Where's the security? Where's the grounding? But like, again, monogamy used to be the back default of the, the security moment where now it's like swinging.
So I don't even know. Give me 10, 20 years. This question might not even be on my brain anymore. You know where I'm like, okay, that's been like a solved equation. It's in the box, you know, like, man.
Marcia B: But this thing you just said about the grandmother. Yeah, my grandparents are all gone, but my relatives, I have a lot of extended family and there is this way that, like, there's a desire in this sort of, as you keep talking about it, like, psychedelic journey of wanting to it.
Make my life coherent and knowable to the people in my life who are not as close, but who are important to me. And so I think that's some of where this comes in is like, when you keep asking these questions and you keep leading with curiosity and you keep being open to experience, you end up in some weird eddies and like, I'm not bad.
Sometimes they suck. Sometimes they're great. They're just weird. But they're not coherent to outsiders. And those structures of the wedding party. Okay, now I know who your person is. And like, now I know who to address the Christmas cards to. And now I know who to invite to the family functions. And like, these rituals are how Have Humans make sense of the social network.
And I think that there's some like, and this is the place where when I was younger, I used to be like poo poo it all. And now I have a lot more compassion for the desire that we have to have our networks Be knowable and it's come up a lot. If I may get a little heavy here for a moment, it's come up a lot in the last few years in my community because there's been, there's been a handful of deaths in our extended poly world.
And I have now watched the places where somebody who is very out and very poly and has, you know. A very clear and legible to me network of people that have the sort of unconventional relationship, like the ex that is your best friend that actually is your best friend or like the, the, you know, co parents who like move to another city together, even though they are not real, you know, like these very coherent and legible to me.
Situations that are absolutely illegible when the police are having to be involved because the person who died was part of a crime, or when the family comes in from out of town and doesn't know any of this stuff. And like, it's very up for me at the moment. To be thinking about what does like chosen family polyamorous relationship anarchy death planning look like because these are places where we have to interface with the state.
We have to interface with the establishment. There are in the same way that like marriages are, you know, what gets put in an obituary, who are your parents? Who got married, who were you married to, who were your children, when did you die, you know, and maybe, like, a little bit of other, like, associations that you had in your lifetime, and, like, this is the structure that people use to make sense.
It's also really important from, like, a historian's perspective to know how these things work. connections happened. But then I also am like, what are the historians missing? Because the formal paperwork of death doesn't allow for these relationships and doesn't allow for the ex of 10 years who is still part of this person's life in a way that is kind of incomprehensible to mainstream monogamous culture.
Um, like, what do you mean you're still Making life decisions and involving your ex or what does it mean to like, have your partnership with somebody that you're not fucking even though we don't ask that of monogamous people. We're like, oh, we don't know. They're married dot dot dot. Like, we don't ask questions about their sex.
Like, we make a bunch of assumptions and then we don't ever speak of it again. And so I find this to be. It's just a thing I'm chewing on at the moment. It's not something I have answers to. I know that, um, there are some people doing some Xena Sharman's doing some really good work with that. She helped produce a death planning for, uh, polyamory guide that I was looking at recently and some other folks are thinking about this.
This is not my area of expertise, but it is very much like painful for me as a person who has now gone through 4 of these deaths in the last. Yeah. 15 years, that every time one of them happens, there's this friction of how that person was living their life and the either familial, like the, the birth family or state structures of assumption about what actually matters and like, oh, and they're just like the ways that in much the same way, you know, queer people have free for years until fairly recently had to sweep it under the rug and like, what is the thing that made it possible for queer people to not have to sweep it under the rug?
Yeah. Quite so much marriage, legally sanctioned marriage, so, you know, it's, it's a complicated subject, but I do think that there's a need to think about it and to talk about it and to just acknowledge that no matter how out and proud we are in our lives, like, there's this point where somebody else is writing our story and how can we set ourselves up that the truth of our story is known as much as possible.
When you don't have any control over it. And when there are these like structures that sort of shape it. So, yeah, a little bit of a heavy topic, but I think it's so it's I don't know that it's necessary to think about right off the bat, if you're like listening to this and you're like new to this stuff.
This is this is down the road problems. But it is, it is, you know, especially with all four of these were, you know, young people dying. So it's kind of a challenging. Thing that I imagine is different in your 70s or 80s or 90s. So I'm not there yet.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Challenging down the road. Hopefully. Right. God forbid.
We don't know. I don't know. You know what it is. It's such an interesting question of who has the decision over what happens to my body. Right. Is it? Is it my parents? Because I didn't. Unless you have something written down. Yeah. Okay. Great. So we can see. I don't love that. I don't love that. Right. Because I shared my, uh, My real dream is, um, to, I don't think this is, maybe it will happen in my lifetime, I'll, I'll put it on your podcast and then people will know.
Yeah, dear listeners, keep, keep my family accountable. I, my real dream, I just don't know if it'll be legal. My real dream is to, um, you know, have my body decomposed by mushrooms. psychedelic mushrooms and to have my funeral be like a trip, a general, like, everybody comes together, has the psychedelic experience, reflects and integrates on the joy of my being.
And so I don't know if that'll be legal, but of course my Mormon mother.
Marcia B: Not going to be doing mushrooms, probably.
Nicole: She probably doesn't love that. I dream, you know, all my relationship anarchist community is like, cool, we're down. Where are we doing this? Like exciting, you know, but my mom. So obviously, so this is real, right?
Marcia B: And this is real and like, both of these communities matter and both of their feelings matter. And there's this piece of how do we make our lives legible? When the people in our lives have very different starting points and very different existential frameworks is an interesting question. It's an ongoing question.
And I think it's some of the, um, you know, this is I, when I teach about non monogamy, one of the things I start with is what does monogamy mean? And, uh, one of the things I've found to be The most powerful form of monogamy in a lot of ways is social monogamy, by which I mean not sex or falling in love with other people or sharing bank accounts, but does the PTA know?
Does the, do my parents know? The performance of monogamy, like, Yeah. Thanks. This is a dated example, because, you know, now I work with people who were born in the 90s, but Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton. Do you think she knew after, like, so many news stories that Bill was cheating? Yes, of course she knew he was cheating.
That was, duh. What she was mad about was that he got caught by the press, like, and you can, you can just see, there's a, there's a video of them, like, when it came, the news broke about Monica Lewinsky, and like, they're coming off of the helicopter, and Chelsea's between them, and Hillary's so pissed, right?
And like, it's the social mon the performance of monogamy. Like, you have now made us lower in everybody's eyes because you broke the social contract.
And part of our agreement, implicit or explicit, was that wasn't going to happen. Mm hmm. And, I see this all the time. I dated somebody who when she was pregnant was just I was dating her husband.
She was pregnant. She was like, can you not have dates in the neighborhood? Because I don't want people to think he's cheating on like, we were all open. But she was like, I don't want people to pity me thinking he's cheating while I'm pregnant. Sure. Right. And I was like, Oh, yeah, that's social monogamy at play.
Like, totally. You don't want to like, perform losing social status to the guy at the corner store. Yeah, it makes sense, right?
Nicole: And just the safety of it at times, right? Because this happened to me where I, I rock climb and I started dating someone who runs the gym and the complexities of I go there with my multiple partners.
And now, so if And now people start to know that me and him are dating, which means if I kiss my other partner at the gym, everyone else is either going to interpret that as Nicole is cheating on this partner, or outing to him in a way that I don't know if he's outed to all the staff there, right? So now I'm running these political games of, okay, and I, you know, I had to, in my opinion, ask for consent to be able to kiss my partner before it outed him for the need to have to explain to everybody of, Hey, yes, Nicole and I actually are non monogamous.
This is all okay. And like, does he want to do that or not? Right. And these are the complex. And does he want to deal with that at work? That's exactly, maybe not. Right. Which is why I was like telling my partner, I was like, I don't think we can kiss today now that everyone knows. And then the pain of that for the other person who feels like they're now being pulled out, but the political nature of it where it's like, Hey, there's a.
Conversation about consent going on it because yeah, not everyone wants to tell their whole work staff like, yeah, right. So like, then, like, just the complexities of that. It's like slowing down to make sure everyone's on board. Uh, yeah, there's a lot of unpacking here.
Marcia B: So much unpacking to do. And it would be great if we could just like, you know, go live in the woods and be away from everybody.
But that's how you get cults. So no, we live in a society, we have to figure out how to do it is hard sometimes.
Nicole: Yeah. And I've, you know, similar to you with my relationship with my mom, it's always been this open door to talk about it, which I think, I don't know what your journey has looked like with that.
It's been an open door that has sometimes slammed on my face, right? I say, Oh, I'm queer. I don't want to talk to you.
Marcia B: Oh, I don't want details was what I got.
Nicole: Oh yeah. Or just like a silence when you talk about it. Right. And you're just like, Oh, okay. I can't really go there or, or, or, or stern looks when I talk about it.
And then I'm like, okay, can't go there.
Marcia B: I will say my mother's defense 14 years after I came out, when she was 70 years old, she apologized. And she also apologized for not getting what I was talking about with my trans friends. And, uh, I told her, you know, it's fine, like, it's fine if you don't understand and, like, you're learning.
And at 70, she, like, she took a class about gender variant youth, and her whole career, again, was about young people. So when she, like, got it, then she got it. And then she was like, oh, crap, I really fucked up here. And, you know, it took, it took 14 years, but we got there.
Nicole: Absolutely.
Marcia B: And I'm sure it was hard in that 14 years and then she died shortly after that.
But it was, uh, it was an interesting thing too about, you know, don't write people off either. Like they can surprise you and don't hope for it too hard when you're not getting it. You have to kind of find this sort of Zen middle ground of leaving the door open for people to change without being attached to them changing.
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, but sometimes they can really I didn't expect it. She told she called me. She's like Marcia. I have to tell you about a thing. I did. I'm like. And she was like, really excited to tell me and she told me that she took this tele class and as a very technologically challenged person, I was like, oh, you took a tele class?
That's so great, mom! Like, I thought she was trying to tell me that she'd done this technology thing. She's like, no, no, no, it was about gender variant youth and I learned some things and I need to tell you some things and I need to apologize. I was like, what? Yeah. So, yeah, sometimes, yeah, I did get the door slammed in my face or like.
Just the silence. Yeah, the like, I don't know what like, just again, not my life wasn't legible. Right. And so then in the face of like, wanting a relationship, but not knowing how to like, read what was happening for me, I think, I think it was just really hard for my mom to like, know what to do with the information.
And I've been on the other side of that when people like, I've decided to fill in the blank. It's like, what? Yeah. Absolutely. You're gonna marry that person, you're gonna move to Bali, you're gonna, like, whatever the thing is that people are doing that you're like, it's not legible to me. I'm like. Sure.
Nicole: We have those moments.
Sure. Which at the beginning of my non monogamy polyamory was anyone who had experienced polyamory and then went back. Experience polyamory and then chose sexual fidelity where I was like, what are you doing?
And now that I've been doing it longer I'm like, you know, I could see I could understand why there is a lot of choice To that path. Yeah, let me tell you right like I see it Yeah, well in ways that like when you're first fighting so hard for visibility that you like anyone, you know Turns and goes in a different path.
You're like no we lost her a person of the movement, you know, no, like, that's beautiful, too, you know, and so, well, and also,
Marcia B: I have found that people who do monogamy from the experience of having done non monogamy great monogamy very differently than people who have not ever looked at it or thought about it before.
It's a very different, much more conscious, And I love how you're going back to that other thing, that's like that's like a choice chosen thing. And that's you're going back to that, that, like, do you have free will? It's like, well, do you have free will if you have to stay, Polly? If you start, you know, like, Oh, absolutely.
That's not cool either. We have to have the space for people to make choices that. Aren't legible to us as long as they're not harming anybody even like, well, then it just I don't understand that and that doesn't mean it's the wrong thing.
Nicole: Totally. And at this point, like, I'm trying to like, hop out of even this bucket.
Like, as a relationship anarchist, it's not so much of a question of monogamy or non monogamy at all. Right? Right. I have multiple different relationships. We all have multiple different relationships. And I'm hoping that I mean, language can go wherever it goes, right? And I've heard the word conscious monogamy.
It's a little bit, you know, what does it say about the other side? But I agree with what you're saying is like, once you've seen this world and choose that there's a different level of informed consent to your freedom that, you know, maybe we didn't have before. But I also think there's this world of like relationship anarchy and choosing to practice sexual fidelity within that.
Cause that's what feels good and still be here in the space. That's not breaking it down into this like monogamy, non monogamy, like, no, like we all have multiple. relationships and if sexual connection with one person feels good, then you're a relationship anarchist that practices sexual fidelity.
Marcia B: Oh, and I definitely know people like that.
I mean, it's very telling because the person that they are having a sexually exclusive relationship with Is not necessarily their whole world, right? Um, you know, or like, I have a housemate. One of my housemates is, uh, I would say relationship, but the way that she prioritizes the project of our home and her partner doesn't live with us.
The way that she prioritizes the project of our home is like incomprehensible to a traditionally mindset and so it's like, really obvious to me that I'm dealing with a relationship anarchist because she has a framework for making home. And investing in a home and investing in the relationships with her half a dozen other housemates that if you're following like this, at least the paths of monogamy that I was modeled growing up, like people will be like, what are you doing?
Why? Why are those people even important to you? Why are you doing this? Right? And again, it goes back to that legibility. But it is very much a relationship anarchist approach because it's, it is this like valuing the relationships for what they are.
And like investing in relationships. Because they make sense to your actual life rather than following a script that you were handed.
Nicole: Right. Absolutely. Yes. Which makes me kind of want to ask you, I often struggle and, and keep continuing to like spin the Rubik's Cube on words for language for a lot of what we do as Relationship Anarchists, which is basically, I guess part of the difficulty of trying to pioneer any new movement of words and language and
Marcia B: especially when it looks different for everybody in it.
Nicole: Right. Exactly. And so I, I know the language of like primary includes so much conversation around hierarchy and power structure of, you know, veto power, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, which I don't, you know, agree with and the complexities of that. But then how do we describe partnerships? That are much closer to us.
And I've sometimes heard the word a prioritized partner, like you can have that or an anchor or other things, but it's, I still like shake my brain around it and I've been thinking more about orbits, right? Like in the different orbits, I know we often say constellation and stuff. And so I've been thinking maybe some way to describe it too, is like my closest orbit.
orbiting partner. Like this is the person that I talk to the most and know the most of their existential narrative of what's going on in their world and mine. And that's not to say that I can't have multiple people orbiting at very close rates actually, but these are the people that are close, but I just, God, I just really struggle at trying to find words to describe it that don't say primary or a hierarchy system.
I'm curious if you've found things in your experience.
Marcia B: Um, I do like the language of orbits, because also orbits are not necessarily perfect circles. And that sort of makes, you know, like with a, you think about friendships and like they come in closer and they go away. It's like you talk to your friend a lot and then like you drift for a couple months and then you come back.
Right. Or comet partners, that's an orbit too. Like, so there's the shape of the orbits. I feel like it's a really useful metaphor of like, you know, who's just, who is the moon to your earth? Or who is the lake? Venus to the sun or whatever. But then there's also like, who is the Halley's comet? Like, there's all these different comments that come in and out and like, who are these different people and, and also orbits wobble.
And like, I do really like that as a metaphor. I've been talking lately with Melina Cassidy of Radical Relating, who I think is how we initially made contact about liberatory versus oppressive hierarchy, rather than like, is hierarchy in and of itself. Oh man, a problem. How are we experiencing the sort of hierarchies that arise and how are we Being intentional versus default or, you know, those kinds of things, because in both of our experience, like, I've experienced hierarchy that was very liberatory.
There's that same partner who I was talking about his wife being pregnant when we were dating. That was a very clearly a secondary and it was a wonderfully liberatory. Relationship, because it was one of those relationships where I did not ever have that question of, are you the one? Are we getting married?
It was like very clear. And in that clarity, I experienced a lot of freedom. Yeah. And so, is hierarchy oppressive? Well, with a different person who treated me crappier, or my metamorph who treated me crappier, it probably would have been oppressive, but it was like, we all really cared about each other. And like, I was really invested in her being happy and safe and.
Comfortable in our relation, like, in all of our relating and none of the 3 of us are together anymore and we are all still really tight. Sure. Right. And then, you know, so this, this language of. Primary, secondary, it's like descriptive versus prescriptive, I think, is a really important distinction. And then also, um, you know, I had a really funny conversation with some of my housemates because I was like, all right, so we're clearly all invested in this long term project of home together.
And there are some people in the household where it's like, there's sort of a medium term, like 3 to 5 years. We know that there is another thing that's coming in their life. We don't know what it is, but they're, they're here for for a while. None of us are moving out anytime soon, but, like, in 3 years, something might happen in 5 years.
I think there's others where it's like, yeah, I don't know if it's going to be in this house, but maybe we buy a house together. Like, we don't know. Right. Sort of like, very open ended long term. And I was like, are we nesting partners? And like, none of us would refer to each other as nesting partners. We decided we were a nesting posse.
Um, so I do find a lot of joy in like making up language and my anchor partner, my closest orbiting partner doesn't live with me. And when I moved into this house, I told them, you need to understand that this is I'm not in a relationship with anybody that, you know, they were all new to me when I moved in, but I just knew that I was, like, making a choice to do a big investment of time, energy, attention, emotion that I, Believed in it has proven to be true over time was going to pay off in a big way.
And my partner at the still my partner, but at the time, my partner, um, who is like, such a sweet introvert, doesn't understand Was like, okay, like, I will just treat it like you have another partner, and that these six people collectively equal another partner, and that has been a good analogy. And it is interesting, because like, yeah, we were like, no, none of us would call each other nesting.
Even the people in the house who are dating each other would not call each other nesting, because the orientation is towards the group project, not towards the dyad. Sure. Like, how do you talk about that? How do you, again, how do you make it legible to the public? people on the outside. How do I make it legible on a podcast?
How do I make it legible to my family or to my partner's family? Who's like, why will, why don't you two live together? We're like, we don't want to.
Nicole: Yeah.
Marcia B: Or we do want to, but we want it to be in a duplex and Bay Area housing is too expensive. Right. Absolutely. How do we explain zoning laws? Economic realities to family members who live in places that are cheaper.
Nicole: Exactly. We're making our best attempt at it today, right? And trying to get more language and hopefully through this conversation and the listeners who are tuning in, like gaining more words and other things just to think of and dream of different worlds of possibility, because that's half the battle as we're trying to sit here and and find these words, you know, that's kind of like the movement edging forward, right?
There wasn't a word. Polyamory until recently, right? And so as we push to find more of this language, we're expanding the space for our consciousness to be able to, like, understand our experience. And then, yes, try to, depending on how much we want to put energy into explaining that to our other people in our world.
Yeah, it's so tricky because I appreciate the distinctions of the hierarchy and I've heard some content creators that still like, no, hierarchy is so bad, hierarchy is so bad, so bad, and I'm like, ah, like, part of me wonders if it's inevitable, right? Because at the end of the day, we're functioning in the system where time and energy is limited, right?
Okay, time, energy limited. You must spread out those resources depending on how you want to across multiple different people. And that inevitably is going to create a structure, whether it's like 50 I don't think anyone could ever, you know, 50 50 to be, you know, the math of how this actually works out is that you're going to have a very, you know, a structure.
Stratification of different investment of your time and energy. That's going to create a hierarchical system of who, right? Maybe it's fluid hierarchy, right? But it's a hierarchy. And if we don't think that time and energy isn't political power, I think we're missing part of the conversation here, right?
Is that these limited resources are power and we do have to be intentional about where we're spending it. Spending them because it's going to take more time for me to sit with my mom and try to explain this to her. And so maybe I don't want to do that. And I want to invest my time and energy here. And that in that hierarchy between what I invest in my mom and these other people is a power game that's inevitable.
But. We could probably nerd out on this for hours. A thousand percent.
Marcia B: You know, I mean, the thing about the language is that even the word hierarchy, right? Like, the question I have to ask every single time with all of these words is what do we mean by that? Totally. Because, you know, Some people hear the word hierarchy and they, we all reference something different, right?
When I'm in my workshops and I'm teaching about this, I'm like, okay, everybody close your eyes and picture a tree, right?
And then I go, okay, what kind of tree did you picture? What kind of tree did you picture? And everybody's got different trees. Although oaks are usually pretty popular. And some of them are not, you know, some of them are drawings of trees and some of them are like, you know, weeping willows and some are redwoods.
It's everybody's got a different tree and tree is not a particularly like loaded topic. It's not got as much baggage for most people. It's not got as much power connotation. So we come up with different images in our heads about a tree. We are not referencing the same thing when we say love or resources or hierarchy or power or.
Right. You know, care or any of these things, we are referencing different things. And so before we go off the rails of any argument, it's always like, what do you mean by the word hierarchy? What do you mean by the word care? What do you mean? Tell me more. And that curiosity going back to that curiosity piece of.
You know, we are, we have pictures in our heads. We are using words to reference the pictures in our heads. The pictures in our heads are in our heads. They're not external. Right. And we have seen examples of it, but we haven't seen the same examples of it. And even if we have, we are not picking up the same particular pieces of information.
Totally. Examples. So it is crucial to be like, what do you mean by that? Tell me more. Flush that out for me. When you say this word, I want to know what you mean. Yes, which takes time, but I do think it's really important to, um, to take that time when you're having these conversations because it's the way we get around some of the arguments that happen later.
Nicole: Yes. I so appreciate that nuance, right? It's like kink, right? What do you mean by kink? Yeah, that could be it. What do you mean?
Marcia B: Yeah, exactly. Let's, I mean, for some people, it's marrying the pastor. Hey, that was a role play all on of its own.
Nicole: Oh, you know where my brain goes to first for any scene is some sort of play in that space.
It's unconscious. Um, but absolutely. I, I just appreciate that so much just because I see these, uh, these dialogues going on in Instagram. I'm like, no, no, no. And then people like, well, what about no? And I'm like, God, I think if we could just take a moment to like embody what you just said of the existential realities being different for everybody.
And so we need to get going. Clear on what it means for each person and the way that's lived out. I mean, I think we'd be in a better space. So I just really appreciate that.
Marcia B: I've been a veteran of the internet wars around this for many, many years. Before Facebook. Before that it was, you know, very set life, grind.
net, blogs. Before that it was like newsletters, printed newsletters and letters to the editor. Like people have been arguing about this stuff for a long time. And. I also have a deep belief and this will maybe be the last thing that I'll say on this is that we've got to get off the Internet and get into each other's lives to have some of these conversations because there's too much nuance.
There's too much emotion and co regulation that needs to happen. And there's just too much actual relating. And information is valuable. I am a nerd. I love to read a study. I love to see a framework. I love a Venn diagram, man.
But at the end of the day, we are not necessarily just information robots. We are emotional beings who need to look each other in the eye when we have some of these conversations.
And so if you find yourself getting too upset about some of the stuff online, it's worthwhile to, uh, I mean, as, as the kids, they touch grass, but also go touch grass with somebody else who wants to have that conversation with you and do it in person. Yeah.
Nicole: So beautiful. Yes, I'm holding myself back from the hours I could probably spend talking to you.
And it's been such a beautiful space to unpack the nuance of so many of these ideas with you today. So I really appreciate that. And as we come towards the end of our time, I always like to take a deep breath at the guest.
And then ask you if there's anything else left on your heart that you want to say to the listeners. Otherwise, I can guide us towards a closing question.
Marcia B: Hmm. I would say in the least cliche way possible, be kind to yourself and be kind to other people.
Nicole: Absolutely. What a great invitation. Yeah. So I'll guide us towards our closing question now.
So then the one question that I ask everyone on the show is what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?
Marcia B: Oh, that the concept of normal is fucked.
Nicole: Absolutely! Anarchist checked! Anarchist checked, Vox! Man, that's good. Good answer.
Marcia B: Oh, I could go on and on about that, but the concept of normal is a very recent invention and it's a substitute for do I belong?
Do I fit in? Mm hmm. Am I going to be accepted? Am I going to be wanted? And that, uh, the ways that we use it. are about statistics and not about belonging.
So the concept of normal, that's a whole podcast in and of itself, but I'll leave it there. Absolutely. Like you said, it is a statistic and I'm not normal. You're not normal. And a perfectly
normal person would be really abnormal.
Nicole: Truly, truly. Yeah, absolutely. So I think there's so much there to deconstruct. And, uh, yeah, it's always fun to see where the guests take it. Cause I think there's like two ways to it, right? Of, of the normal of creating some sort of rigid hierarchy of what is, and isn't okay in terms of statistical normality versus the, uh, Uh, what is the shared humanness that we all have?
And so it's really fun because I see the anarchists immediately bite for the bit and go, no, no normal. And I'm like, yeah. So it's a great, it's a great tester and a projective question. So I appreciate that today. Yeah, it was such a joy to have you on the podcast. Where do you want to plug for people who are connecting with you and want to learn more about your book and your work?
Marcia B: Um, yeah, so if you go to my website, askingforwhatyouwant. com, you can find out about my courses. I teach four, four week courses a year, um, about boundaries, asking for what you want, figuring out what you want, and What I call writing your erotic handbook. Um, so, uh, those are my four courses that I do. And I also have a one on one coaching and a group coaching program that I run every year and occasional one off classes.
So I would say go to askingforwhatyouwant. com, get on my mailing list. You can get looped in on all of that good stuff and, uh, yeah, find out what's going on. I, I also am on Instagram at askmarshabee and I'm pretty active there.
Nicole: So. Well, thank you for joining us today. Thank you.
Marcia B: Thank you.
Nicole: If you enjoyed today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast.
And head on over to modernanarchypodcast. com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I want to thank you for tuning in, and I will see you all next week.
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