Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Nicole. On today's episode, we have Katie
Sullivan, Join us for an open hearted conversation about transforming pain. Together we talk about the medicine of authentic connections, riding the waves of life, and finding your alignment. Hello dear listener and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode.
each Wednesday. My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy, and I am also the founder of The Pleasure Practice, supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and Intimate relationships. Dear listener. Ugh. Change, change, change, and more change.
This episode was recorded in February. I knew that I'd be starting my internship in August. That is currently where I'm at. That's my final goal. final year of my doctoral training is my internship and I recorded so many episodes for you, dear listener. I truly have content planned through November of 2025.
I, you know, I'm gonna be around here for you. I hope you love stability and consistency because You and I, dear listener, we have a secure relationship, and I'm gonna be here, okay? And, yeah, in all of that change, you know, I'm always talking about pleasure, I'm always talking about pleasure, and the reality is that You can't pick and choose which emotions you feel.
And so when you feel all of the pleasure, you are tapped into your emotions, and you're going to feel all the pain, okay? It is the light and the dark, and you embrace the pain. Both when you open up your heart to really feel and gosh, I really hoped, dear listener, that you have relationships that can hold you in the waves of joy, in the waves of sadness, because relationships create our sense of self.
They create your reality and you good relationships Bring you joy and that energy and that zest for life And they will hold you in the deepest moments of despair. Oh dear listener I hope you can follow those relationships, right? The relationships where you can spend hours with that person and feel Lit up and more excited for life.
Again, that zest, you know, Katie and I talk about finding your alignment, finding the people where things start to come together and you find more and more of your community and you feel that energy. You feel that. Life force flowing within you as people see you and understand you and you're able to have more of that energy to put towards helping others, helping change the world because you have that community that holds you in all of the waves of life.
And I hope for you, dear listener, that you can continue to find those folks. I hope for myself that I can continue to find that community. One thing to trust in is that we are building that community here, right, with all of you dear listeners, of all the podcast guests, we are creating a community space that I hope you can really feel your heart open up through these vulnerable conversations, and I hope you can just really feel me being here.
Alright, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and resources at modernanarchypodcast. com, linked in the show notes below. And I want to say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters. I love getting to share my personal insights with you, okay?
For all of my Patreon listeners. who know the grief that I am moving through from my last post. Thank you for your love, thank you for being a part of my community, because wow, grief is intense. Oh my gosh, uh, thank you, thank you, thank you, so if you want to join the Patreon community and get exclusive access into my personal exploration and research, then you can head on over to patreon.
com slash modern anarchy podcast. linked in the show notes below. And with that, dear listener, please know that I am sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode. The first question I like to ask each guest is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?
Katie: Oh gosh. You know. You're starting with a tough one.
I know. Um, well, um, you know, I'm Katie Sullivan. I am a nurse practitioner. Well, I guess I'll start with my career. Yeah. Um, I'm the founder of Modern Compassionate Care, co founder. Um, my partner in business and in crime is Beth Lupo. She has been a nurse practitioner. One of my nearest and dearest friends, truly a sister for 30 years, uh, three years ago, we started a practice.
She is a licensed clinical professional counselor and a psychedelic assisted therapist. I am a family nurse practitioner with a specialization in medical cannabis and psychedelics. And, um, we've teamed up to try to create. a different type of kind of healing experience for people. You know, we're a small practice, but we were doing work that we really find important.
We love and enjoy, you know, a lot of our interests is around healing trauma. That's what we do. You know, I'm also a, a mom of an 18 year old, just turned 18. Um, and I am, you know, I, I got into. Nursing because I was the family member. I was the wife of somebody who had a chronic complex illness caused by toxic exposures in Iraq.
Um, my husband was a Marine. He passed away in 2009. So prior to his death, I was not in the medical field at all. I was on, I worked in civil rights. I worked for the national fair housing Alliance doing housing discrimination cause I still love and support, but after my experience, I went into this field to try to people and families dealing with difficult times navigate, um, you know, kind of like the Western medical system.
And, uh, you know, and, and from there, you know, I, I went, I became a nurse practitioner. Um, I did family practice. I did women's health. And then I ended up opening Modern Compassionate Care. And really focusing on this area that I'm super passionate about, which is, you know, helping people reach new levels in their healing and find, you know, some way to kind of navigate this very complicated system that we have for people to try to get healthy and get better and, you know, kind of opening the, The, the window to what healing looks like, what it can look like and trying to empower people.
So that sounded kind of full of myself, but like, that's, that's my goal and that's what I do. So right now that's who I am today.
Nicole: And I want you to be full of yourself, right? Like that, that desire to serve, right. And to dedicate your life to that and people and supporting them. I think that's a beautiful cause to celebrate and be proud of for yourself.
And so I will hold the container for you to shine that light and be that person. So thank you for joining us today. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. Yeah. And, um, I'm thinking too, just, you know, about your own personal journey with your husband and the pain of that. And I'm curious how, you know, if you're willing to share these drugs, right, how they supported you and your own experience with this.
Katie: It definitely, um, you know, and it's, it's, um, it's been a journey for me to try to heal from grieving. I mean, he, um, you know, it's, it's 2024, this is, um, marking 15 years, actually the anniversary of his death is in two days. It's February 16th. So it's, it's kind of timely, you know, and it's, um, my healing journey.
Journey through grief. You know, I've been through ups and downs. It's, it's really been a defining, you know, part of my life and who I am, you know, I, I, I'm not the same and what I've learned through it all is I'm really grateful like for the people around me. I'm really grateful for the good things that I have in my life and I'm grateful for having even the ability to do the work that I'm doing right now.
Because as I, like, try to assist other people on their healing journey, that's healing to me.
Nicole: Right.
Katie: It's a beautiful thing in my life to be doing the work that I'm doing, and I, I, I am privileged to be able to do that. So, no, I, did I even answer, did I even answer your question, Nicole?
Nicole: Yes, yes, I, I'm hearing the ways that being able to, you know, Give back to other people is a part of your healing of grief, right?
Yes. And that grieving continues, right? It, it, it doesn't have an end point. It is a part of your story. It is a part of your narrative now that moves with you.
Katie: Totally. And, and know. And now I, now I kind of remember the main part of the question that you asked me, which was the, you know, the, the medicines.
And so I, you know, I focus on medical cannabis and right now at Modern Compassionate Care. We do ketamine assisted therapy. That's what's legal in the state of Illinois. Um, you know, but I am a student of and quite, you know, looking forward to seeing other forms of psychedelic healing being available. You know, we have HB1 that's, that is now, um, in Illinois.
We're passing a bill to make, uh, the use of psilocybin legal for therapeutic use. Very excited for that and that substance is actually very important to me. I, I had a total career highlight last year where I was interviewed with some of my colleagues by High Times Magazine. And I got to share, um, how I use psilocybin for grief and how profoundly some of my experiences, particularly, you know, I had, I had one real, Um, you know, solo journey using psilocybin where I set the stage for myself to do some work around the loss, you know, the, the huge amount of survivor's guilt that I felt even, you know, six, seven years after my husband had died, um, you know, and I'd done, I've done all the therapy, I'd done the EMDR, um, you know, cannabis has been a part of my health regimen and mental health routine for a long time.
But Psychedelics, you know, it's sort of like they always say, like, you know, opening a key to your unconscious or your subconscious mind. It helped me to resolve my guilt around, you know, the survivor's guilt of, you know, my, my husband passing away, even though literally there, there's nothing I could have done, but I still feel, you know, kind of powerless and the, you know, kind of just, you know, Self compassion that I was able to access for the first time, a true forgiving of myself for the, the things that, you know, I perceived that I had done wrong.
And, you know, the, I had sort of a, you know, like a spiritual experience connecting with my, my late husband where I felt his presence and it was so healing. And I mean, that was, I would say seven, eight years ago that I had that experience and it just persisted. Like I forgave myself on that night, and it worked.
Like, I mean, I still feel that way. It persisted beyond. And to me, I had been already doing seven years of grieving work at that time. Because, um, you know, I mean, at one point I was like twice a week in therapy, you know, doing all the things. Wow. Doing everything. And it was like, truly, this, this one particular experience was so transformatively healing for me.
That's when I started becoming very interested in the therapeutic use of these substances. Because it's like, sometimes we are standing in our own way, due to our wounds.
And this is something that can help you have a radically different perspective. And, you know, I mean, You know, I think it's, I think it could change the world.
I really do. And, you know, I mean, I will start sounding like a, you know, I've drank the Kool Aid here many times in this podcast, but the truth is I have. And, you know, I mean, I'm not saying there's no risks. I'm not, you know, and anything like that, but the healing potential and to do this correctly and to create safe containers, you know, that's what we're trying to do here at Modern Compassionate Care.
It's SANA Healing Collective. That's the work that they're doing. We were big fans of the work that they do there to me. This treatment not only, you know, accessible, but affordable for people who, you know, that's the big issue with this right now. We don't want to see this become into a treatment for the elite.
This is plant medicine given to us by the earth. Right. So, you know, we're, they're always going to try to commodify and capitalize this, but you know, we need to fight against that because everyone deserves this healing. And I do not believe that people have to Be going through, like, some devastating grief to get benefit from this medicine.
Yeah. Every single human could benefit from the, the perspective and the, you know, just experience that you can gain from using these substances. They are safe. You know, if done in the right way, this can be a very safe method. Safe with a lot of the other options that are out there for people right now.
And potentially. Much more effective,
Nicole: right?
Katie: Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You've seen it in your own life. You've seen it in other people's lives. And I appreciate the nuance of what you were saying of, you know, it's not without the risk and it's, it's about having those safe containers. Right. My research with, uh, sex and relationships, I think a lot about kink, right?
Like something that could have the potential to be, um, harmful when done in a wrong container without, you know, the intentionality of consent and drugs have the same potential, right? Like there's that potential for risk, but within the right container. the right holding space. There's so much healing here, right?
And so just thinking about the world of what it could be when this medicine is more accessible compared to like, yeah, just give them an SSRI, give them some Klonopin, like give them like all these other drugs that we go to first that, you know, at times like dampen our experience compared to amplifying it, you know, and I just think about what it means for, you know, like when you were you're grieving and holding that pain and and so much of of holding the past of feeling bad about certain things to be able to have this moment of maybe tapping into more of your, you know, um, inner compassionate self.
That's something that I think we, we, depending on where we're at in our life can lose connection to, right? And we get this negative voice, negative voice, negative, negative. And, you know, it's not always what happens on the drugs or the medicine, right? But sometimes it blossoms up and you just start to turn up the volume on that more compassionate self that said, Hey, Hey, Hey, you are doing your best.
Did you know that? I love you. You were doing your best, you know, and then we cry, we have that moment and And what it means for you then to be integrating that even like right now in our conversation, right? As we're talking about it, you're integrating still that experience from the past, your narratives unfolding with me right here as you make sense of that journey and what it means to continue to carry that forward.
Katie: 100%. I mean, integration is ongoing and that what a great, you know, comparison analogy with kink or, you know, BDSM, you know, I think of like, that could be exploitative and hurtful in the wrong situation and in the right situation. Some people find a lot of pain. Healing in that and great analogy. And I mean, it's so true.
The same thing with with the psychedelics creating that safe space. You know, when I had this great experience of mine, I was really prepared for it. And I mean, it wasn't in a professional setting and, you know, don't come arrest me federal government in an undisclosed location.
Nicole: Well, apparently we still have free speech.
I've asked, uh, Geoff Bathje about that one a handful of times. What do we talk, how do we talk about this? He's like, you still have free speech. And I was like, great, thanks.
Katie: Okay, I definitely trust Geoff. Great, Geoff. I, um, yeah, and so that, um, you know, I had, I had prepared a space for myself physically, emotionally.
I was ready to have that experience. And it, you know, I Potentially, it was a seven years of my hard work that got me to the point where I was ready to forgive myself and to, you know, accept what I had already known from like, you know, losing my husband, I had a very like vivid dream right after he was buried really at that with him kind of, you know, me saying, I don't know what to do.
Like we had a three year old, you know, I don't know what to do. How am I going to do this without you? He was always like my rock and my strong person that, you know, he was not. Scared of her about things. And in the dream, he was like, you, he gave me a book, like a big book. A really big book. And he is like, you, you, you know it, you got this, you know?
Mm-Hmm. Like I already had known that he, you know, forgave me for any perceived slight, it was me that needed to forgive me. Mm-Hmm. It was me that needed to believe that. And so, you know, that's just, you know, that's like deeply the work of my life that, that I'd done. And. You know, this is like a big part of who I am today and like what drives me, you know, and, and I had to do that at that time because like I said, I had a three year old.
She turned 18 last week. So, you know, like, she's the greatest gift of, you know, my life. And so, you know, there's so many beautiful things have come out of, you know, You know, experience that was so difficult and, you know, I'm, I'm just one person that's walking this planet, dealing with something devastating and so difficult, you know, we all have this stuff to bear.
And it's like, if we could just open our eyes and have, like, more empathy for each other, have more authentic conversations like this. I don't mind talking about my personal experience in this way because it, it ripped me apart, ripped me apart. And I built myself back from that again, and I am stronger.
I'm made of stronger stuff now. And so. You know, I always have that with me, you know, I always felt like after this big, his death, you know, I mean, I was 27 when it happened, I was Still very much a kid, to be totally honest, I know that's typically an adult, but, and I was a mom, but I still was like a child in some ways, and it was just like a veil ripped, ripped from my face, where I never saw anything the same again, and like, as much as I would want, you know, that to have never happened, the, the knowledge that I have now, that was very hard won, and it's precious to me.
So. And I know so many people are feeling that way, and when it comes to grief, like, I was so blessed because I had resources, I had people that reached out to me, and you know, there's kind of like the initiated people that have been through dark time like this, have had a very serious loss, they are there, they kind of come out when that happens to you, you kind of can tell, it's like a kindred spirit, someone that gets it, and then all the other people that maybe couldn't understand what I was going for, but like, just were there for me.
And so, like, I was surrounded by, like, radical empathy from people and radical love. This world is good. Like, you can't, you can't tell me it's not when I've seen that evidence so powerfully for myself. Totally. So, like, you know, the work that I'm doing and I think the work that you do, it's like, what is at the basis of all of it?
It's love. Love is Everything, you know? That's where I'm trying to operate from these days, is just like, hey, we have unbridled, like, unending well of that inside of us that we can tap into at any time. And psychedelics can be a path to tap into that source of unconditional love. It really does exist.
Nicole: Yeah.
Katie: For yourself.
Nicole: Yeah. That softening that it brings to the soul, to the ego, whatever words we want to use to describe it, that kind of, you know, maybe melt some of the boundaries between you and I or other people, between me and the plants and the cats, you know, and you're like, okay, you know, where is that line?
We love all of them and that feeling and yeah, that's so powerful. And yeah. Yeah, I mean, my, my heart breaks for your 27 year old self with a three year old daughter and just the complexities of what that would be to go through that and just the pain of that. And, and like you said, vulnerable conversations like this, I believe, and this is why I started the podcast can change the world, right?
Because we know, or at least that is what we see in therapy. That is what we see in our healing and our communities. But so many people are moving through the world. Holding these pain points, feeling like they can't talk about it. And there is this complexity that in our capitalistic culture, where our main mode of production is efficient, yeah, efficient productivity, right?
Grieving does not have space for efficient productivity. We go, go, go. You need time. What? You need time off? Get back to work, right? You know, so like this system that we're in kind of keeps all of us away from being able to sit in the complexities of that. So, you know, you had your community around you, and I'm sure even then, and maybe even still now feel the difficulties of when you do share this with people.
I'm sure people tense up. Oh, oh, how do, how do I respond to this? Oh no. You know, and like, because our culture is not as comfortable with sitting in grief with other people. Right.
Katie: Right. We always want to make someone else feel better. And you know, in a way that's like very self serving, cause it's like, you're uncomfortable.
I'm uncomfortable. How do I stop that feeling? Let me make you feel more comfortable. I didn't say anything. And it's like, you know, but the truth is, is like, You know, that's the, that's the big thing, you know, with the work that you do, the work that I do, I sit in intimate conversations with people about their like worst, you know, things that have ever happened to them, the darkest things that they're going through.
And it's like, what a privilege to do that. I'm not like a great small talker. I love this conversation because we just launched right into it. I'm like, I'm a widow. Let me tell you about it. But you know, that's me. So like now, you know, me, you know, like that's, I'm showing you me. And so, and I love when someone does that to me.
And that's. Healing. Like, you know, a lot of what we're doing here is like shadow work. Shadow work is, uh, like it's, it's what I do, but it's like hard. And, but it's, it's about shining a light on those parts that feel ashamed, sad, afraid, you know, and, and a lot of times it's like our little inner child there.
And it's like. They're afraid of the dark. Shine the light on them. You know, bring them out here. Be there for them. That is a part of you that's crying out for attention. That's crying out for that love that you can shine on them. That's what the light is. So, you know, I, I feel privileged to do this. I feel privileged to be even having this conversation because it's a heart and soul conversation and those are healing.
It's healing for me to talk about this with you. So thank you.
You know, and even now, 15 years later, still on the road to grieving, you know, and when you really love somebody, that's a testament to it.
You know, it's like, I'm not going to bury that. I'm going to embrace it for what it is. And so, you know, and I, and I see so many people that are kind of struggling with that.
And, um, they don't have the language or like the safety of their own nervous system to be able to access those feelings. Because a lot of the people that I see and that I work with, and I'm sure you too, because we're all doing this all the time, is like a very dysregulated nervous system.
Someone that is in that fight, flight, bond, freeze mode, living in survival mode.
And, you know, a lot of the clients that I see, because I'm a medical provider, they're experiencing physical symptoms that are often really tied into Their grief, their trauma, and so a lot of the work that we do, step one here is like helping people achieve like just a felt sense of safety in their body.
It's like, we're not going to go totally deep right away. What I would like is to let's practice feeling safe in our body sometimes.
And even the work that I do with psychedelics, often it's kind of become a little joke at this point. It's like, what's my intention for this trip? And it's always like accessing joy.
I'm accessing joy. She's like, you love accessing joy. It's like, great. Um, you know, some, but sometimes. Um, even though that's your intention, you know, that's not what's going to happen. So you got to be, you got to be open. You got to have a commitment to seeing the experience through no matter where it takes you.
Um, so sometimes accessing joy happens. Sometimes it's like, Ooh, no, Katie, it's time for you to get, you know, Hey, did you remember this in the somewhere that's really musty and dirtier. I use the analogy a lot of time with the clients that I'm talking to them about our ketamine services as like, you're mining down inside of yourself.
And as you do that, you kind of hit pockets sometimes where I buried that really well. And like, now it's, now it's open. I've busted into that cavern filled with feelings, big feelings. And so like, it's not. You know, I don't like to give people the expectation of like, here's a happy pill. It's going to change your brain and make, it's like, you got to be ready for this work.
And you got to be, you know, you're facing your shadows, you're digging down, you are mining for gold, but that's really what you're doing. And you're in, and this is, you know, and you might find shit down there, excuse me, coal, you know, you're going to turn it into gold, you know, cause in the, truly this is like the work of like alchemy.
If we make something bad and turn it into something beautiful, and my belief is yes, we can. You know, but it's, it's, it feels great to be in this community of people that think this way. As soon as I started doing this work, I have to tell you, I have had this just very, very Intense sensations of alignment with so many people that I've met where it's like, ooh, and to me, that's a sign that I'm on the right path.
Oh, yeah. It's like, bing, bing, bing, I'm getting all these good feelings. You know, when I connect with someone and it's like, ooh, they're, they're walking a parallel path to me. They understand what I'm talking about. And it's like, that's why I think when it comes to this kind of work that we're doing community, Is really important like individual healing is important, but like, I think healing and community this individual healing that we're doing is also in service of the world.
The community when we heal ourselves and are we, we love and accept ourselves. We can shine that out to the rest of the world. And so that's why I think psychedelics can make things better. That's why I think, you know, in psychedelics, you know, or. Even just like mental health care opening up, you know, like releasing the shame that we're a shame based society.
Like, it's good for the economy or something, you know, and it's like, come on, this is horrible. We shame ourselves. We shame each other. The internet is like full of kind of toxic. It's a toxic soup. I mean, I try to. Be involved in that as much as I can and try to engage with like the, the right kind of content so that the algorithm doesn't stick me into some kind of horrible spiral.
But, you know, I, it's just like, that's, you know, there's so many issues in the world right now, right? Like everything bad going around, we're looking around, you know, at everything that's happening, it's playing out on TV in front of us. And then everybody has an opinion about it, but isn't doing anything.
It's like, number 1. Heal yourselves. Like, we don't need to be spewing even more grossness on top of an already bad situation. And I'm not talking about people that are, you know, speaking out for rights or raising awareness. But like, just people that have something to say and it's something kind of gross.
And then we're all exposed to that. It just, the internet, doesn't it feel like Everyone's kind of like barfing out into the abyss and we're all getting hit with it sometimes. And it's just like, what if we stepped away from that? Like, just turn inside for a minute and like, what's, what's hurting you, bro?
Find out. So that's, you know, that's, that's what I feel like about the work that I'm doing. It's like, let's put this shit aside. The stuff that's regulating all of us and like focus on creating safe connections. Whatever that looks like safe therapeutic containers, like you said, for people where you can be yourself and be accepted.
And that in itself is like the best medicine. Oh, yeah. Right. Like, just feeling seen and I feel seen. Thank you for letting me monologue a little bit, but I'm feeling seen being able to speak to you like this because it's. My innermost thoughts and yeah, you need someone to witness that and hear that and you know that it feels good when someone Looking back at you and nodding and making you feel
Nicole: Yeah, I mean everything you're saying it reminds me of at sauna healing collective the saying is Community is medicine, right?
You can have the drugs, the medicine in a scary container and it can make it more difficult. Or, you know, we see the research on extremist groups that do psychedelics and feel more empowered in their extremist mentality. Right? And so this wider lens to understanding that, you know, The drugs are a tool, a lubricant, whatever word we want to use, but it's about who's in the circle with you because like you and I both know when you take the drug and then you go, wow, this is really powerful.
How do we capitalize on this and make a ton of money? Right? That circle is very different than, wow, how do we make this accessible for all people and actually work on collective healing? Right? And so then it's about that circle. circle that you're in in terms of who's seeing you and shaping you and the way that we then internalize those relationships.
And so we all heal in community, heal in relationships. Like you're saying in this moment here of me seeing you and right when you were talking earlier about your husband and the, the, the power of being able to talk about it in this space and the healing nature of it, you know, I felt your emotion there.
I felt the tenderness of that. And You know, I'm with you in that a feeling that that moment for you of what we're co creating here in this space and definitely want to invite you to be able to feel all of those feelings here because I do think that is what the healing is right to sit from another person be like, I can hold your tears.
I can hold this moment with you and be with you in it. I feel it. That's the most healing thing we can do with one another. It's not that we have to have the words, the perfect words. You know, I think a lot of us get locked in these moments of like, Oh, what are the perfect words? I do that all the time as a therapist.
What are the perfect words? And it's like, I see you, I see you.
Katie: Perfect. Perfect. It's perfect. It's true because you know what? You're not asking anything from me in that moment. You're, you're being a like, Very receptive energy that feels good, feels like I'm throwing you a ball and you're catching it, you know, and that's, that's what I love that.
And I think, I think you're so right about this. I love SANA's community healing model. I've been dying to do one of their group sessions. One of the issues in our world is isolation. We are isolated. And when you're depressed and when you have shame, you isolate yourself further. I mean, it's something that, you know, I'm always like having to be like, you're doing it again about myself.
You know, when I'm not. Feeling my best, I tend to isolate rather than seek community. And that's just a protective mechanism and sometimes you need to do that. Sometimes that has to happen for you to be then ready and open to bring people in. But to me that like, there's no better thing than having other people with you.
And one of the things that psychedelics really do, is show how we're all connected. You know, it's, it's, it's going to be interesting to play out those two groups that you were talking about, the community healing and these capitalists that are trying to just make money off of it. And it's like, that's so out of alignment with what psychedelics teach us that it's going to be, how does that sustain itself?
Because eventually the medicine is probably going to tell you like, you're not doing this right, man. This isn't the way. I, I just really believe that. Like, I don't, it's not compatible. That, that model is not compatible with the true message of these medicines are, which is like, you know, here I go again, liberation of the planet.
Like, I mean, like, full liberation of people, you know, like, and that group of people that are just trying to make money off this, this just kind of represents like the worst, you know, impulses of humanity, really. Um, and it's, it's another example of taking medicine that's supposed to be healing and turning it into a business and causing harm in the process, as we've seen with every treatment.
You know, even though I'm trained as a Western medicine provider and I do practice in that way, I'm, I'm actually like the system is broken and I don't really want to participate in it. Like being outside of that and in practice for myself now feels more alignment with like, I can, I don't have to compromise my integrity or ethics in this situation.
I actually can choose. How to handle things and it feels like totally good to be able to do that again a privilege because we're in a system like, you know, we're in a system so like a lot of us have do stuff that we don't necessarily want to in order to survive. And so, yeah, you know, yeah.
Nicole: I mean, how crazy is it that like, I sit down from a human and, and our relationship, they have to pay for, right?
Like, just like, what? Like, what? Like, this healing love of like, my relationship sitting with them and they have to pay for that. But you know who has hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt? Me. And so, I,
Katie: you know. Ya, same., I mean, it's the same thing and you're right. It's hard as a independent practitioner.
This has been the biggest thing because prior to this. I never dealt with billing at all. It was like the, the insurance, the people in front are going to handle your insurance stuff. Like I'm just here to see the patients. Now that I had to put a number on my services and because of the work that we do, we don't take insurance right now, at least like for my portion of it.
You know, it's, ketamine is off label, medical cannabis is still schedule one. So, which is why I end up, you know, Namedropping sauna to a lot of people because they're a nonprofit because they have some pathways for a cheaper thing and I mean, I, as we're trying to do stuff to make it more affordable for people but like, you know, I'm sitting in an office that we pay for every month and to be properly insured for the work that I'm doing is quite expensive.
So it's like, how do you, yeah, how do you be a healing provider in an ethical way?
Nicole: Right. Yeah, I know. It's a it's dizzying. Yeah, it's a dizzying, you know, math conversation here because Yeah, it's wild to do sliding scale down for me, but not up, right? Like there's people who can do the up So it's crazy that them therapists get put in the center as like you need to solve the large Capitalistic economy that was built before you and is actively oppressing you as well by you being the person that only slides down I'm like no slide that skate thing all the way up and then And down, right?
Like let's charge according to means, right? What an idea. I don't know. It's not my fault that the system is broken, but also I don't want to perpetuate the further capitalization of other people. So how do we do both? Right. And all of us are going to have different journeys with that. And for me, it's, it's, you know, charging what I charge for myself, if individual work, but then having, you know, the podcast space, this is free.
I put. So many hours into this baby, like so many hours, but anyone can tune in. Right. And so you and I having this conversation, maybe someone doesn't have access to work with either of us. Maybe they're in a state, a different state, right. But being able to hear this conversation, I hope it can serve as a resource for so many people.
And so I think that for me, I try to think about what it means to work within and against the systems. Cause, uh, yeah, I've got thousands of dollars of debt and I can't just drop out. You know what I mean? So it's like, Okay, I'm in it. But what does it mean to be in it and actively against it at the same time?
And yeah, when you were talking about the group therapy, I mean, there's just so much juicy content in there, right? Like when you're, um, having your experiential and you, you know, hear the person who is having that difficult trip next to you, that, you know, we're in that altered state of consciousness where we have the amplification on our, you know, um, we say a nonspecific amplifier, right?
So say you are a caretaking person. You know what's going to happen? Your direction of focus is going to go directly to that person. You're going to be like, oh my god, oh my god, are they okay? Are they okay? Your whole trip is going to be there. And that's happened in group work at sauna, right? Where I've seen that with clients where they're like, I couldn't focus because this other person was struggling.
And then you might come out being like, wow, I didn't get the trip that I wanted. But also, whoa. What insight in terms of the trip that maybe was needed, right? Like, okay, like this is a path that you usually go down. Let's be curious about this. And so there's so much beauty in the group dynamic, let alone the fact that like, it's been done like that for, you know, years prior to this individual Western sit down from a therapist, you know, the stuff has been done in groups.
But it's so little, you know, it's, it's rarely done in groups, unfortunately. But I think, you know, as we continue to build and, and even just for you to have that experiential, you know, as a trainer, uh, someone who's training in it and for me to have my own experiences, you know, as a therapist who works that, so that we know what the hell we're, we're helping other people do with, you know, I don't think you could ethically be a therapist in this space without having experience.
And there's been research on that, you know, just. Like you, you don't know what you're guiding people into if you've never walked the path yourself. Complicated. Um, but it's just so wild to me that, you know, I might hear someone say, Oh yeah, like my work team, we went out for this conference and then afterwards we got food and then we all like got blackout drunk and like went, walked around the city and blah, blah, blah, blah.
But God forbid, I say, Oh, my team sat down with ketamine and we integrated and journaled about how we want to show up better for one another. Now that's crazy. Damn it. Damn it. This doesn't make any sense.
Katie: You are so right though. And it's like, you know, that's, that's kind of like what we're up against here, but you know, it's like, it doesn't surprise me that, you know, like alcohol is so accepted, it's, it's, it keeps people down, it keeps people stuck in the system.
It's not something that, you know what I mean? I'm not like a. No shaming, but like, it's not going to help you rise up. It's not going to be, it's, it's something that, you know, it can take the edge off of life. It can calm your nervous system temporarily, but it's not, you know, it's not going to get you to that point of, you know, you're not going to have some great realization while you're blackout drunk and you're not going to remember it the next day, at least.
And you know what I mean? It's sort of like, why is that? Okay. And I do think it is because. No one's getting drunk and like having profound insights and questioning like the fabric of society or like what is the system we're in and psychedelics tend to have that effect on people. So, I mean, like, yeah, it's so true.
I mean, I do think that, like, doing that with the team and the people that you're working with, or as somebody that's working with these compounds, I agree with you. You, you do need to have the experience. I mean, how would you even describe it? How would you even describe it if you haven't been through it?
And, you know, you know, I think that there's a lot of places that are offering psychedelic assisted therapy in a way that to me feels like this is totally unsafe. You're opening Pandora's box in some ways, you know what I mean? Like you, you have to be prepared there with a net with, with the container to support whatever might come up and come out.
And, and some people are, you know, like there's, they're administering ketamine and there's like no therapeutic whatsoever, which to me is like, The therapy's the point. Hello. The therapy's the point. Like, that's why I'm involved with, like, the Illinois Psychedelic Society. And the people, you know, IPS, Jean Lacy, the executive director, they're like great people.
The events that they've been putting on, so awesome. And the, the motto of the psychedelic society is of course, like, find the others. And I really do feel like I have found the others in that community because it's that alignment, you know, it's like the people and, you know, the, the, the people that I've been involved with.
Been privileged to meet through this community, you know, it's just been gratifying and awesome. And I mean, really, like, you're one of them, you know, like, I'm so glad and I'm so glad we're in the same city. I'm looking forward to us connecting in person one of these days. Because, you know, I think that we need to Find our tribe and stand together strong.
You know, we can do more together than we can do separately. Oh yeah. And so again, like for people that aren't in Chicago, your city probably has a psychedelic society. And that's a good place to start when you're looking for this type of thing. Find the psychedelic society. Those people are going to probably be more I don't know what you'd say knowledgeable about this, you know, consider it, you might get a better result than just going to, you know, whatever's coming up on your Instagram feed or whatever, right?
Your Google search. It's like, you know, and, and, and not to say like, I don't, you know, have, I'm not calling out specific companies or anything like that. It's just like, you know, if you're considering doing this, especially if you're naive to psychedelics, you want to find a program that is, you know, There has therapy part of it.
The theory is what you're looking for. Like just taking the medicine is not, you, you might get some symptomatic relief, but it's like, that's, you know, that's not going to last. That's already shown to be temporary. It's the work that you do in that moment of neuroplasticity that the psychedelics can give you.
I mean, we know that about the ketamine, it increases neuroplasticity. So it's like, you've used this medicine and you've created a fertile ground in your brain. What are you going to do with that? You know, and. That's the time to do that work and you need the people, the right people to support you to do that, you know, and, and, and that really matters to like finding the right fit for a therapist.
Don't feel bad if you reach out to someone and you're not feeling the connection. It's like, it's okay to look for a different therapist. Like nobody's saying anything personally, they shouldn't be. And I think a good provider. would be open to that conversation and even give you some referrals. So right.
So that's, that's what ideally what you'd want. You know, it's like that's a true therapeutic relationship where someone can be honest and you receive that with grace and assist them to find the help that they need.
Nicole: Totally. Yeah, I mean, talking about other psychedelics, you know, the ethics of having a practitioner who's done the psychedelic and the benefit of that so they can understand.
I mean, for me as someone who practices, you know, sexual self governance, non monogamy, all of this, I mean, like, you Uh, I want a therapist who's done this drug because it is wild, you know, like I want that container. And so, like, depending on various identities and things, it makes so much sense to want someone who's kind of walked this path enough to know the context.
And, you know, for me in this space, my areas of sex and relationships, you know, I, I come from purity culture, which is its own trauma, right? Dr. Rachel Smith episode, your listeners, that, and then my own sexual trauma assaults. And that's what brought me into starting to volunteer as a sexual assault counselor, which is what made me switch from pre med to this, and then to do all of this work and to now be here with, you know, sauna and be thinking about psychedelics.
And I'm sitting at the space, you know, I'm not certainly not the only one, but one of the people in this world sitting at the space of, okay, what does sexual healing look like? With these medicines. I know Laura May Northrup is also one of the like psychedelic therapists that I know does a lot of sex, um, healing work and also has a great book on what it means to be a healer under capitalism.
Katie: All right, I'm going to get that from you later.
Nicole: Yeah, we, we recorded a great episode and didn't talk about psychedelics at all. We just talked about capitalism, which is great. But, um, it's yeah, it's a great, uh, great time. Um, but yeah, when I'm sitting at this of like sex, And psychedelics, and I think, wow, what healing here, and what power for bad things at the same time, right?
We're amplifying all of this, the complexities of consent, the power di oh my god, you know? I just looking at the top of this mountain of, Oh my God, how are we going to do this? I'm sitting with Vilmarie, you know, my mentor, Vilmarie Narloch. And I'm just like, Holy fuck. Like, how do I do this? Well, like there's so much complexity to this in terms of just safety and consent, but there's also so much healing.
And so when I think about that work, you know, the biggest thing being, being in community, like with you, with Vilmarie, with Geoff with all these other people who can look at me and be like, No, Nicole, that's, that's not a great idea. Like I need that. We all need that. So I get afraid of any sort of person in the space.
Who's like, I got it all and I can figure it out. It's like, you're going to need some blinder, you know, to see where your blinders are from other people. And so I'm definitely scared in terms of what it means to kind of like navigate this. base because it is so much complexity in it, but I'm also really excited to be doing it hand in hand, you know, with other community members who can, you know, join me in this conversation because there's really a lot of healing benefit here. Totally.
Katie: And I mean, number one, what a great mentor to have. Like Ville Marie, I don't know that well personally at all. We've met before, but I'd love to get to know her better. And I'm so impressed by all the work that she's done. We first got to know each other because she was, um, working with the Cannabis Equity Illinois Coalition, which is another organization that I.
Um, freaking love. They're amazing. And, um, doing it because of Vilmarie's background with Students for a Sensible Drug Policy. Um, doing a peer, peer led drug education for young people, teenagers and young adults. And so I was like so impressed with her by the first time I met her. She's amazing. So cool to be in, you know, the community with her.
And, and Jeff, great as well. You know, I guess I'm really singing the praises of Sana here. Um, you know, Beth I know wouldn't mind me saying that she, um, used, she got a chance to use their services and had a great experience with them. So it's time for me, uh, to maybe, but, you know, just so cool. Um, but also just, I'm so glad you're here.
I'm so glad you're part of this because your background here, In sex and relationships, you know, I'm also like a survivor of rape and the number of times that that has come up for me doing this work is quite a lot and a lot of my healing work is doing it and I do like a somatic based therapy around it.
I, I truly hold that trauma in that area of my body. Still, we need. Therapists that are informed like you, coming from your perspective, that can help people heal from sexual trauma, liberate themselves and embrace their sexuality in power, you know, in feeling in power. And so I love that. I'm so excited.
You know, it's like I could really benefit from your service. We'll talk later because I'm like, I want to work for my clients. to you, but you know, like that we need this and we need to have more conversations about this because it's, it's a big thing for people that have been through sexual trauma, you know, any form of trauma, but particularly for that, being prepared for that to come up during.
And also you're, you're putting yourself in a vulnerable state here. So to have that. Yeah. Yeah. Safe container, consent, you know, like, we know that there have been abuses in the psychedelics community, sexual abuses of people that are vulnerable, and we have to safeguard against that, you know, we have to be vigilantly safeguarding against that for the people that we serve, and so like, you know, we need informed clinicians, so I'm so excited that you are, you know, one of those people doing that because it's, that's, you know, our sexuality is, you know, It's so deeply, it's, it's, it's just one of those deep down things.
And if that's ruptured, if you know what I mean, if that, if, if the, the wholeness of that is ruptured, if you have been abused, if you have been raped, if you have been made to feel unsafe in a sexual situation, it's a trauma and it's a deep one. It's right down there in your deepest guts, and so, like, we need to proceed with sensitivity and caution, you know, with all patients, but I think especially with patients that have had this kind of in their, in their background, because we are asking them to get very vulnerable.
And we need to make sure that they are safe when we ask them to do that, that they are feeling safe and that we're keeping them safe in the ways that are within our purview to do, you know, totally.
Nicole: Yeah.
Katie: Thank you for your work.
Nicole: Thank you. I appreciate that. And I'll sink my damn teeth into the patriarchy in terms of like, if you're an American, you've experienced trauma about sex, right?
I mean, it's. It's wild to me that, um, I believe the stat, I believe the date is in that marital rape wasn't illegal in all 50 states until 1998. So,
Katie: Oh my God, I was kind of thinking like the 80s, which is still appalling 1998.
Nicole: So until then you could just rape your wife because she's your property, right?
So like, Ooh, Ooh, let alone the puritanical stuff of, you know, the founding of our country, not this land, but the founding of this country, right? Of the puritanical nature. Women give your body to the man, the husband, the heteronormativity that, you know, so it's like, Right. Oh, it's, it's deep. I don't know where the end of that ends.
You know, I, every day I'm unpacking that for myself of where the end of that ends. But man, Katie, if I could sink my teeth into it and let it bleed, uh, you know, that's going to be my lifetime. So it's, it's a fun space to explore, certainly.
Katie: I mean, I totally agree with you. And I mean, and those are the things that it's like, Hey, this is putting us in the position to have these types of conversations from, from a different perspective and from a, you know, a higher eye.
You know, and I have a lot of faith in the future generations that are coming up. You know, like I said, I had like my 18 year old daughter and last night her, her best friend lives with us at our house. And my mom stayed with us last night. And those two girls, you know, my mom's sitting here and like, God love her, you know, but she is.
Yeah, you know, just come kind of coming from that, you know, like, I don't know, 70 year old person's perspective about things and I mean, you know, and my daughter is to say to like my daughter came out as a lesbian in when she was 15 and she's a quiet kid. She's somebody it's like. It's been the proudest moment to see her step into her own like that and, you know, be someone that is going to be unapologetically herself and, you know, to our family, like I just, I could even choke up about her bravery that she's shown throughout this, you know, I'm just, I'm so proud of it in love with my daughter, but, you know, props to my, you know, even my mom who, you know, it's like, she loves my daughter.
So she is growing and accepting. Right. Her like this. And so these two girls last night are sitting there and kind of gave my mom a little bit of a like dressing down or talking to about like the concept of virginity being bullshit and like that and I'm like, it's the ugliest, I can't, no one's still shaming in my house here.
That's like a patriarchal construct. And it's like my, my kid, you know, my kids are over here saying that and it's like, okay. Damn, ladies. Yes. You know what I'm saying? Mom, this is the sexual liberation that your generation fought for in action right here. They, you know, they have higher standards for themselves.
And they should. And, like, they're not, they're not being fed these lines anymore. And I was, like, so proud. So, you know, that, that's You know, another big reason, like, why to do this work. It's like, not just those of us here that are healing as adults, but like, these kids rising up, which I, you know, I've, I've, a lot of my work has been around working with teenagers and adolescents actually within, um, sexual health.
So like prior to me doing this. So like,
Nicole: So cool. Yeah.
Katie: Uh, you know, super rewarding, super awesome to be able to have real genuine conversations about, you know, like safety consent, you know, making sure that you're feeling into, you know, I guess, you know, that self respect inside whatever decisions that you make, just be in alignment with yourself, be safe.
You know, here's the facts that you need to know. And here's some birth control. There you go. You know, like we're, we're, and it's free, ready to help. So it's like, you know, that, what a great job that was. And, you know, something that I. Possibly will be returning to someday just because I love for it, but yeah, through that work with teenagers that like has been one of the coolest populations to kind of work with.
Because it's just like, you know, I don't get it when people are complaining about this younger generation at all. I'm like, they seem cool as hell. They're not here for your bullshit. They're not here for your bullshit. They're talking truth. And I'm going to support that. I love these kids. They're the next people that are going to benefit from this type of work.
And at that age, sexuality is so big. You know what I mean? Your hormones are raging. You're not fully, you know, you don't have a lot of experience. A lot of times that's where traumas can happen in there, but it's like, you know, with the right support, we can empower kids and we can protect them and we can make sure that they don't have the same hangups around sex and relationships that we, we got brought up with.
And I'm like, yes, like that, that last night it was just like, Oh, you were good conversation. I was like, yeah, I'm just not going to say anything. You know, usually it's talking back to my mom about whatever she's. With the girls. And I'm like, you can make me proud kids. You've made me real beautiful.
Nicole: Yeah.
Yeah. So good to see them changing the narrative and standing up to your grandma. I love that. And calling her in,
Katie: right.
Nicole: Rather than calling her out, calling her in closer.
Katie: Exactly. You know what I mean? That was the nice thing. At the end of the day, everyone gave hugs and went up to bed. And you know, it's just like, my mom gets that.
It's like, she's from a different generation. So she's the one that's gotta. Learn about that. You know, like life moves forward, no, no offense, but it's true. Like, you know, life is moving forward. The future is not something to be feared as far as I'm concerned. It's something to be like, embrace we're evolving as a species.
Like let's, and the more of the type of work we're doing, I think we're going to try to evolve the right way. You know, like I'm always, my visual is this like upward spiral, which is, you know, a common one, but I really think that's true because it's not a. A linear straight up to the top, but rising, we're rising together and we're growing in knowledge, understanding, empathy, consciousness.
I think we are. I mean, maybe and maybe it's just the people I'm surrounding myself with, but I really feel like we are. You know, I'm like, you know, and I, and it's, that's, that's a good feeling and we want to bring more people into that tribe. We want to initiate more people into this way of being. And I feel like that's going to be, you know, these steps that we can take right here within ourself is what's going to make a difference.
Yeah. In the world. Big time. So, yeah, I'm, you know, I, I love the work that you're doing. And for me, sexuality has always been, um, a big area of interest. Like, you know, one of my first jobs was working at a sex shop. So cool. I mean, I guess, maybe it was one of my first jobs, but one of my early jobs was working at a sex shop.
And it was funny because I really took the job so seriously. Cause it is serious. It's still fine. Well, I'm like, I don't want anyone to feel shame coming in here. I want this to be a totally open place for people to be cool. And, you know, the company that I worked for wasn't actually like that elevated. I was like, I'm going to need to open my own shop if I'm really going to make this work.
But, uh, you know, who knows? That might be my retirement. Um, the sex toys that are available now are just, you know, To be insane. So yeah, I like, you know, like I'm, uh, um, I, I feel like, you know, that's, that's something that I always had a big connection to. And so like, you know, it didn't end up becoming my life's work at this point, but like, it's always been part of what I do and, um, important to me too.
And I think that, you know, like we need more people doing the work that you're doing because, you know, it's true. Like, you know, the, the. Let's just even say, like, if you're part of the kink community, or, you know, like that community needs support, that community needs support, they experience a lot of stigma.
You know, that's not your issue, guys, it's the people that are stigmatizing you that have the issue, but like, you know, let's, let's make it safe for people. That's gonna make it safer for people to explore these things. You know, and like, sometimes we need to explore that deep side of us, that dark side of us, those, and it can be an extremely, I think, and I mean, I know I'm speaking to the expert here, but like, a way to process trauma.
Like, it could be an extremely powerful way to process trauma, like you said. If you do it in a safe container, um, and have that deep type of healing.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think so much about the BDSM community and kink as like a direct parallel to psychedelics, right? And drugs, the drug community, harm reduction, right?
And pleasure enhancement. What does it mean to pull that out of needing to hide? And the healing, the safety that comes when we pull that out. I mean, particularly within the kink context, it's a little bit complicated because part of the, uh, subversive nature of it is the fun part, right? So pulling it out, you know, it's like, ah, like, you know, it's kind of fun to keep it in this like, Ooh, naughty box.
Right. Rather than pulling it fully out, but there's a lot of, uh, safety healing benefit that would come out from, uh, creating more space for these conversations of, of what it can be. Yeah, I mean, if there's so much empowering, uh, at least in my own life of lived experience of playing with kink and power dynamics and what it's meant to be able to, God damn it.
Like get so much more understanding of consent. Geez. Like just being in this community, I've learned so much about what consent means that, uh, I had no idea previously. So there's been so much empowerment here. And, you know, again, if we go back to that question of how deeply society has messed all of us up, whether we call that trauma or not, I do, but is it muddy in the waters of the word?
I don't know, but there's still healing to do within that. What does it mean for me to be a dom and to dom a man and to have that moment of taking the power that as someone who was taught as a Christian, that I would be submitting my body. To my husband, what does it mean for me to dom a man who wants that right to have that sort of pout?
That's I would say play therapy, right? That's healing, right? And so there's just so much there and even just outside of a trauma framework if we want to let that go right Existentially we live in a void where so much is out of our control Our control, right? So how fun to be let's play with control.
Let's play with this. Let's play with archetypes. Let's play with narratives and and the things there. So yeah, more space for these conversations, I think, are going to change the world. And, you know, for me, even just yesterday with my client work, I was I'm just having some sessions and you know, it's like every single session is about sexual trauma and even just coming out of my last one and it was like childhood sexual trauma and I'm just holding this and I, you know, I'm just like walking away just like feeling tears come up of just like, fuck, like this is so it's, oh, you know, and of course we're in a container where we see much more of it.
So my lens is a little bit more, you know, probably confirmation bias in terms of seeing it everywhere. But. Oh my God, it's everywhere. And I just, you know, you feel this overwhelming sense of wanting to just like save that person from the pain and the experience and everything. And I'm just sitting with that and talk about survivor's guilt of just the complexities of sitting with this person in that and being like, okay, now I'm going to go off to my little party with my friends.
Like, how do I sit in this world of like, oh my God. And just, you know, so I, I just, I was like, I was processing afterwards and the pain of holding this was like, well, the sky is blue. That's really beautiful. And I guess this is why I do the work. Like, this is why I do the work. This is why I have the podcast.
This is why I do this because it is so prevalent. And I want to, with my short chance at life here, I want to make a dent in it. Right. And I know that. The space I'm standing in right now is like a queer or sex radical is, you know, in, in, in, you know, complete honor to all of the feminists that fought in the 70s for birth control and for liberation and all of this.
And so when I look at my niece, who's just a little baby, you know, like, Oh, I'm building this world for you to step into. And I know I'm going to die. And just. Thinking about the longevity of the work and the beauty of what that can be. I, I hope that it continues to get into a space of more liberation for all people in this world.
Katie: Yes.
Nicole: 100%.
Katie: Like this has given me so much to think about. I, I hadn't really ever considered the parallels between BDSM, kink community, or just, you know, any, anyone that's doing sexual. Exploration and psychedelics. I mean, it's, it is so true. Like this is just, you're giving me a lot to think about here. And I.
I see there's a lot to mine in here and, you know, that, that kind of work though, the kind of work that you're doing that's like allowing people to, it is, it is a form of shadow work too. And like we're trying to bring out of the shadows and it's totally, it can empower people. Like, I seriously, I'm like, I have a couple of people, I don't know, good science, but like, you know, that could really benefit from this because they need to have someone help remove the shame.
Yeah. To allow them to do what they, that, that, that they're actually like kind of being called to do. Yeah. In a way that isn't self defeating, but empowering. So you know, this to me is, this is all, it is the same type of liberation work where it feels so good to be part of that. It does. It feels good to be part of something like this.
And I mean, that's why I, I like just even like your podcast, you know, because you, With your, you, you branch it out and you're making these connections between, you know, not just the work that you're specifically doing, but what other people are doing in, in service of. Shaking off these shackles of some of the things that are holding us back that don't need to be, you know, and it's based on shame and self social control and, you know, like, you know, just even, you know, purity culture, how damaging that is.
It is damaging and especially and mostly to women, you know, that that's who that's who's the real victim of that. And often, you know. The people that are doing that to their kids, you know, they believe they're doing the right thing. It's like, you're so misguided, you know, this isn't going to help, but, um, you know, it's, it's, so everyone needs to be liberated there.
And, and, you know, as a woman, you know, like, Yeah, I mean, flipping the script, feeling the power. We need that. We need that. And, and in, and in doing it within a safe container with a partner that is receptive, supportive. equally as enthusiastic, get it girl, you know, like, that's awesome. And that shouldn't be something that is looked down upon.
And there's always going to be, you know, haters going to hate. There's a reason that's phrased, but like, we don't need to pay attention to them. They're just probably sad they're not having as good of a time, you know, like, right. They have more work to do inside of releasing those content. Constructs within them that are preventing them from being an actualized human being, you know, and I mean, and that's the work of all of us is to really probe our debts and understand, you know, like, that's what I want to do on this planet is to, like, feel the.
fullness of human experience. And sometimes that's like, you know, I'm in the throes of, you know, grief. I told you, like, you know, I'm, I'm going through a breakup right now. It's Valentine's Day and I have, I've had a really rough month. My dog passed away. My companion, you know, like in, in these, those things like that are, you know, it's like, Oh, it's, why did this just happen?
And like, while I'm feeling so, you know, but at the same time, it's like, well, I'm, I'm feeling the pain of a relationship that meant a lot to me. And I'm, I'm going through the the grieving process, which I'm, you know, I, Hey, I've walked this path before as we've talked about. So, you know, and can I do it kind and can I do it well?
And can I offer love to the person I was in a relationship with? And, and, you know, if it's, you know, you're leaving a relationship, can we learn how to leave someone? Well, can we learn how to not traumatize the people that we've been in an intimate relationship with and instead offer love and offer, you know, peace and best wishes and, you know, like.
Honor the, the sacredness of the relationship and how much it meant. Yeah. I think I'm ready to do that. You know, I think I'm, I've grown enough as a person where like, that seems the only option for me when it comes to, you know, a relationship. So that's, you know, it's like as rough as a breakup can be like, Whoa, you know, if I look behind me at like where I've come from and like, Hey girl, you're, you know, you're This feels right.
You know, it's, you can't always control the outcome of things. And, you know, some, some relationships are not meant forever, you know, and it's, it's like hard to consider that when you're, you were thinking this, this is the person I'm going to be with, but, you know, like, does that mean that had no value?
Like, does it mean that it wasn't important in my life and that I didn't learn and grow from it? Um, no, like not at all. And, you know, like, wow. It's like, I just feel like. Yeah. You're kind of mature now, Katie. Good job. Like, you're doing it. Uh, you know, that's like, it's a win for me. So, you know, even in, even in that, that's, that's what we really want.
We can't, life is so, you know, unpredictable. And it's like, it's just about riding the wave, knowing yourself and like the word alignment is so much to me. Like, it's been about like clarity and alignment and it's like being in alignment with yourself. People can leave you in many ways, but if you're there for yourself and you're grounded and centered in who you are, and the work that both you and I are doing is in service of, I believe that, where it's like, you know, I can feel myself in my own backbone, standing there holding me.
And so like for Valentine's Day for me, like I was saying to you, you know, when we first started talking, it's like, yeah, this day feels about self love, you know, like I, and I self love and love for the people around me. And I have like a group text with my girlfriends and it's like, that's the first thing I did today was to tell them happy Valentine's Day.
I love you guys. Because. Yeah. You know, those are the people or the, you know, the people in my life, you know, even like, you know, my mom, I'm arguing with last night, we had breakfast together this morning. And it's like, you know, I'm so glad you're here and thank you. And I love you. And love means a lot of different things.
It doesn't have to always mean romance, although like that's a freaking great, you know, like. Sure. I'm not getting laid tonight, Nicole, but I'm okay with that. You know, I, yeah. Yeah. I'm like, I'm pretty, you know, like in touch with myself. So we'll just be like that. Um, so, you know, you can give yourself self love in many forms, you know, like many forms and, you know, like it might look like a eggs and bacon for breakfast, a bath, uh, yeah.
Watching a movie, like. I want to pour love into me and, and, and the people around me, but like first person to me, I got to do it first year and, and that, that, you know, just like they always say, you know, like it overflows onto the other people in your life. And so I've always kind of been like, eh, Valentine's day Hallmark holiday, but you know what, fuck that this year.
It's not, it's like self love, self love for me and self love and love for other people and sending love out to everyone. You know, you didn't send out. Love to my ex today, you know, and you know, like it's cool, right? So yeah, beautiful
Nicole: What an exciting day for you to be celebrating yourself and your love and then giving that out to your community And you know, my dissertation was on the concept of relationship anarchy and you know this this yeah It's a really it was a really fun to get into and kind of deeply connected to the podcast and the name and all of it in terms of You Seeing the expansiveness of all of our relationships, right?
So like you're saying, you know, maybe there's not that romantic partner right now, but your family, your daughter, you know, all these other people that are around you that do give you love. And what does it mean for us to expand our perspective, particularly on Valentine's Day, right? Beyond just. the one person to a much more wider, wow, like you said, texting your friends in the morning, Oh, I actually have so much love around me and to feel into that.
And so there's so much there for that shift that, you know, it's beautiful to be with you on this day and to be a part of your journey in terms of opening up to that love. And it's, it's such a spiritual practice, right? For me, and that word is complicated, right? Particularly because of the Christian background, but, uh, just, just the concept for you to sit back and say, wow, like.
Change is inevitable. This relationship, you know, it worked when it worked and it now no longer is serving either of us. And so I love you. I wish you the best on your journey and we'll part our ways. Oh, what, what a selfless spiritual experience to have that kind of love and, or. For me, last night meeting another one of my partners, other partners, right?
A metamore, which, goddammit, this psychedelic trip, the amount of times that I wanted to rip my teeth, I mean, years of social conditioning of women against women, right? And just wanting to be like, am I prettier than her? Am I cooler than her? Versus what does it mean to come into a spiritual state or come into a space of love and be like, We're on the same team, like we're all in the same community, we're on the same team.
That doesn't mean the thoughts don't come up in securities, let me name. But like, just to like, start with that frame of like, Oh, okay, like we're, we're in the same community. I love this human, like, how can I step from that frame? And that's been such a spiritual practice that continues to crack my heart open further and further and further.
And I've cried a million times and difficulties of this, right? Scary psychedelic trip, but wow. Like, what does it mean to actually expand these concepts of love? Particularly on Valentine's day. I mean, I God, Audrey Lorde, like I'm just so much there, you know, like I'm continuing to learn. I bought the book all, um, all about love back behind me that I'm excited to, uh, crack into, and for one of my partners as his gift as well.
And so I'm just, I'm excited to keep being in this space and expand what love means.
Katie: I think that's so great. And I mean, that really is a radical. spiritual practice. It is, it is driving at some of your like deepest insecurities. And so like props for doing that. You know, like that, that to me is what's the, at the heart of all this, I think.
And you know, like, I, I, you know, I don't have the, the, I have no experience in a poly relationship or anything like that. Like when you say that, you know, like those feelings coming up, it's like, Oh, I can totally see. Oh, I want to bite. I'm not, I'm not like, I haven't, I haven't, but I totally, you know, I mean, I can see where that would be like, oh God, difficult.
And so like working through those feelings and, and having this different type of experience in a relationship that isn't, you know, in my mind, it sounds like it's not, um, The lack of possessiveness, which we tend to have, and, and that can be actually kind of toxic, um, the possessiveness. And so, like, well, there's a lot of stigma against, like, the, the polycommute, like, the, the just people that are like, I don't get that or whatever.
But it's sort of like, you know, have you met anybody? Have you talked to anybody? Because it seems like, you know, some, some deep works going on here. And it's another way to, you know, we learn and heal within relationships. Well, relationships can take so many forms and, and, and, and they can become complicated.
But you know what, if you, again, if you're grounded, if you're centered within yourself, that's, that's what it takes to do this kind of work. Totally. And it's like, and sometimes we lose our footing and then find it again. And if you're in a safe relationship with, with others that care about you and that are on the same journey as you are, in some ways, you know, it's like healing and community.
Totally. Totally.
Nicole: It's polyamory, right? Totally. Yeah. And I mean, I'm here for all the different types of love that people, you know, I, monogamy is a beautiful practice. You can be a relationship anarchist who's monogamous and practices sexual fidelity. I'm here for all of it. And I also see the joys of the, uh, less complexity of that path because you're not having to sit with this like a mess that sometimes I spend so much time processing that we don't even live in the relationship.
Whoa. But like, um, and I think it's like outside of even these binaries or these, the spectrum of relationships, we all have situations where we're deeply in love with someone and then they meet a new friend, a new person, whether they have sex with that friend or not, whatever, you know, but like you watch them get excited about this or a new, They have a video game and now they want to spend hours with the video game and you're like, Hey, what about me?
Right? So like, we all go through this in different ways in terms of like possessiveness over people's time and energy and space. And so it's not even so much of the poly non monogamy monogamy binary. It's like, We all go through this, right? In terms of what does it mean to like love another person without that form of control in a way that's still attached and committed, but you know, to be able to allow the people in our world to blossom and bloom and to have that space, those are things we're all going through.
Katie: I mean, what a good point. See, like I have a lot to learn from you , and I think that, um, you know, that's. It's so wise of a way to put, because you know, at the end of the day, we're all working on the same issues in different ways. It's like, it's, it, you know, no matter what circumstance you put yourself in to do that.
And those are like inner wounds. Those are those things again, like crying out for heal me. Shine your light on me. What does this mean? And, and at the end of the day, like, the answer to that is always almost like what I keep repeating. Like, feeling centered, feeling I got me, and like, if you can come back to that, that is Self perpetuating, self love, like you can, you can, you can be a generator of that within yourself and that's the goal, right, like to generate that love, to alchemize our pain into that, that then we're able to let that flow and like, you've taken it a step further as, Being of service to other people in the way that you are, which holding space in the job of a, of a therapist, like, I just have a lot of respect for it because it's so needed.
We have come away from those kinds of conversations. Not always, you know, we have the supportive people in our life and things like that, but it's being this receptive, you know, kind of reflection, positive regard, you know, being there for another person. And like, That is so healing, and that can be done in so many different contexts, but, you know, I just.
I want more of this in life. You know, I want more conversations like this. I want more openness and acceptance. I want more curiosity when someone talks about their, you know, their life, which is different from yours. And like, you know, there's always points of connection here. We are humans. And, you know, if you, if you subscribe to, you know, again, what, like, Okay.
Psychedelics really make me feel is, you know, we're one, we're one thing. We're all coming from the same source, having these individual experiences, but we are very much one, very much connected. All of this planet and so we've forgotten that we've forgotten that so much and it's like sometimes all it does is take like that that touch of openness, empathy, a moment of connection to make you realize and it's like so much of the hate in this world and so much of the crap that gets thrown about, you know, the toxic internet that I was talking about before, like, You know, what's missing in so many of those interactions is just like empathy and like, you know, and, and, uh, we don't need to be afraid of each other.
Like, we don't need to be afraid of somebody that's different from us. We all have something to teach each other. Embrace it, everybody. Embrace it. Take some drugs. No. You know, like, I really do feel like psychedelics facilitate that, but so does therapy. So does this sexual work that you're doing. It's a point of deep connection with somebody.
There's an intimacy in both of these things and you can't hide it from it because you are putting yourself in a vulnerable position and we're also guarded. We're also guarded because we're protecting our hearts and we're protecting ourselves and what we've been through. And it's like, The safety to let down that guard and to let someone else in that's healing.
That is, that is where we can start to make some changes. And it is really like a balm to your soul sometimes, you know, whatever that looks like, even just a conversation like this. You know, it feels heart to heart and it feels healing and it feels intimate and I love it, you know, like I, I really, you know, I appreciate this about you.
I don't know why right away. It's like I could just talk to her. So, you know, it's another, this is another moment of alignment for me that you're on the right path. Like you've connected with another kindred spirit. Someone that is doing some amazing stuff. Wow. I'm just so interested. I'm so interested.
I'm, I'm a big, I'm a big fan of your work. And I think how cool, how important, how, um, radical relationship. Anarchy. I love it. And you know, it's like, hey, you know, like, hey, I'm, I'm just like floored that this is something that we are now out in the open, talking about, we're able to have conversations like this.
You're right, Jeff, we do have free speech still. And this is what's awesome because we can make, make it. Easier for other people to have some of these conversations. And I think that's what you're doing with the podcast. I, you know, and I, I can only imagine how much work you really do put into this. And it is a truly, it's a true labor of love for you.
And I think that that's, that's beautiful, but I think there's a reason too. People are, people have been connecting to podcasts, you know, it's, it's a counterpoint to those 15 second clips that we've gotten so used to thinking. We're having a deep conversation here and, and, You know, we're like diving deep.
I love that. I love that. And I think that's why people like it too. You know, I, I mean, I, I think that that's, we miss so much of these authentic deep interactions in our life and this is a beautiful space to do it and, and, and a great person to facilitate it. So congrats on this awesome podcast.
Nicole: Thank you.
I really, really appreciate that. And I couldn't do it without vulnerable guests like you who do trust me, right? That is on you. Sure, I create the container and stuff, but also it's you, right? And so co coming together to create this, it's, it's a really a gift of intimacy every single time that I get to make these special conversations and particularly the way of how the show works.
Um, I'll talk to you about this afterwards, but everyone who comes on the show gets to nominate who goes. Next, right, in terms of anarchist philosophy of de centering the power. So, sure, I might go to a Illinois Psychedelic Society and pick someone and be like, Oh, that's cool. Let's talk. But then from there I hand over the power and I say, who do you think I should talk to?
And so I've talked to just amazing people around the world that I would have never touched otherwise. Right. And, and it's been such a journey of letting go. And so it's, it, it really is, you know, to be sitting here right now with you is my work every week, but it's also a large work of, um, At this point, hundreds of other people that have gotten me to this point.
And so it's a very special space and I'm glad to have had you here today. Oh, gosh. This is like, I mean it today.
Katie: This was a perfect, um, I'm so glad I picked Valentine's. Valentine's Day. Hell yeah. Because this just seems perfect. It's, you know, and, um, you know, I, I just feel like, Hey, the more, the more kind of times that we can connect like this, the more conversations like this.
Like it, it just feels great. Like, I don't honestly, when I'm on a podcast, I like hate to go back and listen to myself speaking. I think I'm always like, what did I say? What do you think? I do every week. This one, I'm going to definitely shouldn't combo back because I need to hear your words again. Not no offense.
I have listened to some of my podcast appearances. There's anybody that's listening to this that has had me on their shelf. But sometimes I'm like, oh my gosh, what did, you know, I, sometimes I feel like I'm blacking out and that's usually the ones where I'm like giving a lot of factual information or like studies and stuff.
Like I, I definitely remember this conversation now in it. So that's a good sign that I'm not, um, slightly dissociated out of nerves or something. Totally. Totally.
Nicole: Well, good. Well, then I'll have you take that deep breath with me.
So. Towards the end of every question, I always check in with the guests just to make sure there wasn't anything still lingering on their heart. Otherwise, I have a closing question that I can ask you.
Katie: I do not feel that there's anything. I kind of dumped it all on you. Um, and I'm just looking forward to talking to you again.
I'm, you're gonna, you're gonna hear from me. I'm going to be seeking you out, girl. So great. Say the final question on me. I'll see how I can do.
Nicole: All right, Katie. Damn. So, the final question that I ask every guest who comes onto the show is, What is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?
Katie: Oh, gosh.
Nicole: I know. What a projected test right here. You can take it anywhere.
Katie: Yes. Uh, oh my gosh. So many things. But, You know, I wish people felt it was more normal to have moments where they feel completely lost, where they feel like they've lost the plot. They're off their path. That is a universal human experience.
Nothing to be ashamed of. A lot of times, people that come to see me, that's kind of where they're at. And And they're feeling deep shame about it, especially if they've been like a high achiever or somebody that, um, has been, you know, brought up to look to external approval as a, as a way to know, Hey, I'm doing well.
And then when they, they fall off or they have a mistake and, and they feel the shame on that, it's like, Oh my God, you're just being a human. This is the work of your life. Fucking up is. Making progress to be fully honest, that's like no person has ever never made a wrong step. That person is delusional.
Likely they believe. So, you know, I, I don't and I don't know if this is like the right way to, you know, sum up what our conversation has been, but truly like, you know, in that dark night of the soul in those moments where you are feeling, you know, a call from your shadow that that you have, you know, If you've lost the way, that is the moment when you can start doing some radical work.
And that is the moment when you're really, really human. And that is the moment to seek out the safe people in your life. The people that love you, a good therapist, you know, good, a safe person to be with. That is the magical step. Like, your darkest moment is your Catalyst for change, catalyst for growth, and to reframe our failures, as I put it in quotes, visually for you here, into strengths, into even just data and information for yourself.
That's what we really need to be doing. Let's, and I do think it kind of caps on it, shame, like the shame, the shame when it comes to sexuality, the shame when it comes to, you know, for some of my patients using cannabis, using psychedelics, there is stigma against that. They have been told from young age that it's a horrible, you know, terrible drug and you're doing it wrong.
Let's shake off the shame and like, let's just deal with the reality. And so literally, if there's one thing I could do for people on Valentine's Day to lighten their heart a little bit, it would be to just like, remove a little bit of that shame.
Nicole: Yeah. Remove some shame. Yeah, absolutely. Damn, growth is so uncomfortable.
Oh my God. Right? Like, yeah. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh, you know, and you're in it. And when you're in it, you're in it. And it's intense, right? I. And I love the metaphor of, of thinking about those moments like the weather, right? If we are the sky. Oh, yeah, there are days of thunder, lightning, hail, rah, you know, like, and you're in it.
And that might be for weeks, you know, sometimes in Chicago, it's foggy for weeks. Whoa. Where's the sun? I don't know, man. You know, but, but to remember that we are the sky, right. And that we are not those emotions, but we feel them and we don't, you know, block those out. We feel them and we're there, but we're also in it.
Right. And just like you said, finding community for those moments, because that is what is so healing. And so I'm just really thankful that you were, you know, you took a step in terms of opening up yourself here in the space with me and with all the listeners today about, you know, the vulnerable parts of your journey so that you can be that catalyst, right.
To inspire people to maybe talk to their friends about it and just the ripples of the work and these conversations. I believe in them. So, and so I want to say thank you for joining me today and all the listeners.
Katie: Thank you so much for having me this this. I feel like I've just been in therapy. Should I pay you for this session?
This has been so great. I'm and I'm so glad to have gotten to know you a little bit. I can't wait to connect with you more because truly the work that you're doing, I think, is. Fully important, you know, you have a fan and you have a, uh, potential referral source.
Nicole: Great. I love that.
Katie: I mean, you know, so thank you for having me and, um, can't, cannot wait to follow, see what you're doing. Continue listening and, um, connect soon.
Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you so much. And for the listeners who are enjoying you and want to learn more about your work, where do you want to plug for them to find you and all that you're doing?
Katie: Oh, okay. Wonderful. All right. You can find me, you know, we have a website, moderncompassionatecare.
com. Um, our office location is, you know, in Chicago. Northwest side. Um, I also see people for telehealth and you can also find me, um, you know, I'm part of the Clinical Education Council for the Illinois Psychedelic Society. Please check them out if you're local here in Illinois. I have to plug Illinois Cannabis Equity Coalition, Chicago Normal, my other OG, you know, community members that are doing the work.
So you can find me either at my business or helping out these other organizations whose missions I completely love and support.
Nicole: Well, thank you so much for joining us today.
If you enjoyed today's episode, then leave us a 5 star review wherever you listen to your podcast. And head on over to ModernAnarchyPodcast. com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I want to thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.
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