221. Relationship Anarchist: Erin O'Daniel

Dr. Nicole: [00:00:00] Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Aaron join us for another relationship anarchy research conversation. Together we talk about queering the narrative, sensual ways to be in conflict and rewriting our hierarchy of needs. Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world.

Tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy, and [00:01:00] I am also the founder of The Pleasure Practice, so supporting individuals and crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships. Dear listener, oh, you know, I love every relationship Anarchy episode.

It is such a joy to get to continue to nerd out on relationship anarchy. Dear listener, if you are new to this series, this is the continuation of my doctoral dissertation on relationship anarchy, which is available for free on my website if you want to check it out. The link is in the show notes below and.

Yeah, every time that one of you listeners trusts me to have such a vulnerable, raw conversation about your practice of relationship anarchy, I'm honored, and Fat Cat is also honored. These are [00:02:00] powerful episodes for the movement, right? We all need community spaces where we can hear the stories of other people who are practicing to know that you're not the only one crying about these things.

You're not the only one laughing about these same moments of discovery, and so. I am honored to be sharing this episode with you today, dear listener and the invite, the door is open for you if you are a relationship anarchist, to answer the same questions in the form below. I would love to get to hear about your practice because relationship anarchy is not defined by the experts, right?

It is defined by the community. And so each one of us, every single one of us has a lens, a view, a perspective on relationship anarchy that deserves to be elevated and seen and heard. And so I am delighted to be sharing [00:03:00] this episode with all of you dear listeners from Erin, and I hope you enjoy it just as much as I did.

Ah. All right, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and resources@modernanarchypodcast.com, linked in the show notes below. And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon members, and we have a new Patreon member. Crystal, hello. Thank you for joining the Patreon community.

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And so the first question that I ask every guest is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

Erin: My name is Erin. I use all pronouns. I live on what I call the big lake in northern Minnesota, lake Superior, and I write a lot about queer and Tennessee place.

Dr. Nicole: Mm.

Erin: And uh, certainly informed by the North South dialectic that I've lived in this country.

Born in Miami, Florida. I've, [00:05:00] I've truly like. Moved from north, from south to north to south to north over and over again. And it again has informed how I build relationship with people, with place, other kin love, and both my craft of writing and, uh, the practice of being a pleasure activist.

Dr. Nicole: Mm. You're in the right space.

Yes. Yes. I'm so excited to have you here today and get to talk all things relationship anarchy. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, the first big question is what is relationship anarchy?

Erin: There's invitation to people. To do relationship differently. Mm-hmm. I think there are a lot of fantastic ways that people are querying the language and the practice of relationship, relationship, anarchy, tivity, uh, you know, challenging the scripts.

A lot of people are talking about unlearning, relearning, rewriting the scripts. [00:06:00] To me, that's all about like querying, which, you know, I use that verb a lot. And to me it speaks to, um, decolonizing many of the things that we've been taught and just challenging the status quo. So I think, I mean, you just look at the words paired relationship anarchy.

It's about doing things differently, about doing things more clearly. And I think really it's, it's also an invitation to like tune into ourselves and our collective communities and to think not only about like individual wellness, wellbeing, but also like collective liberation. Those are all very much woven into people.

Thinking about how to connect in ways that serve us and the, the collective in ways that are just beyond what currently exists. So there's a lot of imagination in it. Yeah. To me that's an element of queerness. Yeah. And just connecting with community, redefining community, rebuilding community, and [00:07:00] also just holding different levels of both like vulnerability and strength at the same time.

You know, that the ability to, to like grapple with the both and instead of black and white, certainly digging into the binaries that have landed us where we are

Dr. Nicole: Yes.

Erin: In ways that, that keeps us isolated and feeling alone and, um, unable to express ourselves fully

Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

Erin: In like all the different arenas of life.

Dr. Nicole: Yes, yes, yes. Another world is possible. Envisioning that world, seeing it, feeling into it, and then embodying it in the here and now, even though it's not here right now. Right? But how can we live into that, into our relationships? And one of my long-term clients had recently shared with me that when he first heard my dissertation was on relationship anarchy, he was very adverse to it.

He was like, relationship anarchy, you mean you're gonna blow up everything that I've ever done with my life. He is come around [00:08:00] now to be like, I've learned so much from you. You know? It was really empowering in that sense. But I think, yeah, so many people hear those two words put together and have, um, because of the cultural connotations around anarchy, often a misconception about what it is.

And what I hear you saying is, is really community based, caring about our community, trying to get out from under these systems, right? To rewrite a new world, a new world of possibilities, of liberation.

Erin: Yes. And, and I also think, again, this like was finding pleasure in connecting with oneself because I think so much of the script of like an older script, the older scripts of the more normalized, socially normalized scripts of building relationship have to do with this, like, whatever the language is, mesh, togetherness, interwoven ness.

And I think once we intimately engage with ourselves, then we can connect with, you know, others community, the wild, [00:09:00] um, and just profoundly alive ways when we're not following, you know, literally like directives from systems. And it can be partners, it can be parents, it can be institutions. So we're, we're like playing with all these things.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And making them around and. And like there's a lot of rediscovery. I mean, I think there's also like, I, um, do a bit of meditation and I think like especially in 2025, like revisiting the, the practice of like new beginnings and just thinking of beginner's mind and Sure. Shedding older skin.

So

Dr. Nicole: yeah.

Erin: And doing it in like radical ways. Mm. Ly I think it's a radicalness to anarchy that a lot of people are afraid of turned off by. And then the pair it with relationship, you know, some of the most there is within that like the, the possibility to be tender and vulnerable and [00:10:00] sexual and creative and.

So it's as a, as a writer, I just, I, I love how those words work together and shake, shake shit up.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. The radicalness, as you're saying. Mm-hmm. And so I think that's leading into the next question, which is how do you practice it? Right? You were talking about the relationship to self, this radical vision.

I'm curious, how would you describe your practice of relationship anarchy?

Erin: I'm not from Northern Minnesota, so again, like born on big water in Miami, Florida and have for the last 20 years chosen this place as a home. I've come, I've gone and I've overturned. Yeah. And I think that is part of my practice, Nicole.

It's, it's choosing again, like to center a queer intimacy of the place that allows me to, affords me a lot of spaciousness. Sure. This place that's, um, it's a value of mine and I didn't have that language for a long [00:11:00] time, but, you know, I came because of the water and I knew that it was a place where I could create things like one of only two abortion funds in the state and do, um, pleasure activism work and, and really define a writing life.

I think that's part of the practice of like, again, um, creating this relationship, prioritizing this relationship of myself and then, you know, like embedding myself in community and make really radical notions of building community. And I think it's been an interesting place to do that because the culture of Northern Minnesota is very contained.

And so when you're passionate about pleasure and such a healthy sexuality and reproductive justice and relationship anarchy, um, you're, you're gonna, there's gonna be some friction there. And also people who like, surrounded by people who don't, who are averse to conflict. And so I think there's like, there are healthy ways to be in conflict and [00:12:00] sensual ways of being in conflict that allow us all to grow.

And it's just a, a weird, wild, ridiculous thing that, you know, I'm here and I love it and. Struggle with it at moments. I just spent five weeks in Texas. I, I grew up there as well, and my mom was still there, and so I called Dallas, my big D and Duluth, my little d and the cultural shift when I go between these places is wild.

But, um, tongue in cheek, I give Texas the credit for why I do the work I do. And growing up in the nineties there, it just really taught me who I didn't wanna be and what I did wanna fight for and allocate for and

Dr. Nicole: Sure.

Erin: Yeah. So, um, it's, it's been around, it's been a very like, non-linear, queer process of defining myself.

And I think that like, as my, you know, as a poly solo person, that's so central to how I form relationships with others.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Erin: And again, like that [00:13:00] includes place people, right. Other can love, so

Dr. Nicole: absolutely

Erin: risky creativity. That's something that's really important to me. Yeah,

Dr. Nicole: yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, our sense of self is formed by relationships and not just relationships to people.

Right. The relationship to your location. Right. And so you feel that difference in Texas. Right, right. And, and so I think that it's important to talk about all of our different relationships, including the relationship to self with relationship anarchy, the relationship to place, right? And what sort of power structures are impacting those relationships.

Right. And so I, I hear exactly what you're saying, starting that abortion fund in your location, right? That is a part of relationship anarchy, your location and all of the political forces that are there, that are impacting you as well as all of the people in that location.

And so I'm curious, you had said that there is a sensual way to be in [00:14:00] conflict. Uh, in my dissertation, I remember interviewing a relationship anarchist who talked about conflict, uh, doing it in like a fishbowl way. Have you heard of this? No. Yeah. It was really fascinating and, you know, and it sat with me for, for a while.

When people in their community would have conflict, they would have the two people or whatever amount, process it within the whole group. And so the whole group would watch and then they would group would give feedback and listen and be a part of the conflict mediation. And it's something I've just thought about a lot as a researcher, because often my interpersonal conflicts are done in a private space, right?

Sometimes people have a therapist or a coach healer that kind of witnesses, um, family dynamics often have this, but um, in a lot of our interpersonal relationships, it's very private. So it was really interesting to hear about an anarchist group that was doing conflict as a fishbowl style and, and just. I wonder if we would show up better.

You know what I mean? If you [00:15:00] had a bunch of people around you in a ring, like watching you, you know, if that sort of influence would make you show up in a different way. But yeah. I'm curious what you have to say about the sensual ways of being in conflict.

Erin: That's fun to ponder. I know, right? Use the language alone also.

Yeah. It makes me think of restorative justice and how, you know, that that's, that like holds people accountable in different ways and also offers a supportive community to think about it with like, you know, like a more intimate circles. Yeah, I like that, that fishbowl metaphor. I know, I know, right?

Because we, uh, my, I'm part of a meditation group here and we talk a lot about, uh, we've been meditating together for 14 years. Wow. Every once a week. And Wow. So much of it has been, again, like breaking down so much of what we've been taught and, and really being honest with ourselves and with each other about the masks that we wear.

And I think that certainly translates to any and all relationships, you know, how we show up. And [00:16:00] so yeah, people really could choose to do that differently in say, a group when you're navigating conflict. Mm-hmm. We also immediately think of just the, the different skills that people bring to communication styles and skills when we're navigating through, you know, harder conversations, intimate conversations, sensual conversations.

Yeah. Um, so if you can, you know, rely and, and, and play with other people and different style. I, one of my loves is in Minneapolis St. Paul. I don't know if you spend a lot of time, there's a very, I think they're very queer pockets, you know, like incredible, um, ways of querying. I mean individual relationships and then the, the Creative collective and the neighborhood that they live in is called the PowerPoint Park neighborhood.

And I refer to it as the sex portal because it truly is like on a park and it's just like everybody knows everybody. Everybody's loving everybody, fucking everybody. And then like digging in. And so sex [00:17:00] portal, AKA fishbowl because they're like finding ways to just move through hard things, you know, like that come up in the neighborhood that come up nationally, so,

Dr. Nicole: right.

Yeah. Which is very different than in a lot of, uh, dating culture. You know, you particularly often in monogamy culture of you date someone and then you break up and you leave and you never see them again. Right. There's not as much rupture and repair work that often happens in. Particularly queer communities because we're so small often.

Right. And so it's like you gotta, right. Uh, and so it's interesting to think about the importance of rupture and repair and conflict as a really crucial skill that a lot of us don't have education in when it comes to building community. Mm-hmm. So when you're talking about sensuality with it, I, I think about embodiment, right?

How many of us when we are [00:18:00] getting in conflict can still feel our toes on the ground? You know, how many of us can notice that our chest is tightening that, um, you're feeling that activation in the body? I think a lot of us go straight up into the cognitive and stop feeling altogether.

Erin: Agree. I mean, and that's one of the many reasons why I live here, because there's something about, you know, whether it's zero degrees in March and or, you know, I'm standing right next to that big water.

There's something just ultimately incredibly sensual. Mm. Every season, every day that puts me in my body, you know, brings me back to my body. The other thing is a person who's like moved many places and very intentionally chose this home. I'm surrounded by people who have lived here their whole lives and this family, like they have deep roots and I'll say like, many of those folks are white.

And, you know, alongside that, the city is so predominantly white, very segregated. And there's an incredible indigenous community here that also, like intimately sensually [00:19:00] connects themselves with this land and ritual in a way that, you know, white folks won't. And so I think of like, there are different ways of being sensual.

Specific to this very place that I, I write about and I think about and

Dr. Nicole: yeah.

Erin: And for me, like, I am white and I, you know, again, have chosen this home and I'm here 'cause of the wildness and, and the relationships I've been able to build. And it's also though, like, there's a lot of privilege in that. So like, how do I hold the sensual with, um, you know, the advan the, like, the, the advantages I have because of this racialized culture that I've mm-hmm.

Landed myself in. So I think it's really important for me to hold, like, it's easy, especially as a writer, to quickly really romanticize the sensual

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Erin: And to hold it with, you know, the, the, the realities of settler corneal

Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

Erin: History and present day.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Erin: So it's part of, like, I've, [00:20:00] I've been lucky enough to study quite a bit with Long Rod Owens.

I don't know if you know his work. Um, he wrote Love and Rage. And, um, he's a, a self-proclaimed Buddhist, fat bipoc queen.

His practice is so, so rooted in being in the body, both with like, you know, what he calls an erotic ethic. I love that language. You know, just like a trash more trashy practice. It's in challenging, like, the really rigid structures of these systems and also being deeply connected, like the practice of being connected with our grief and our heart brokenness.

Mm mm Alongside like, you know, a spiritual practice, sensual practice. And I think like, that's lot to hold, but it really is, feels very, very deeply important for me to hold it all as often as I can. And so that is part of my sensuality. Connecting, like staying in my body. But, and also, you know, like learning how to grapple with these ideas and concepts and [00:21:00] definitions that have been forced on, forced on many, many people.

You know, definitions of self definitions, of other definitions, of ways of living. So I think that's like, there's, there again is like a subversive nature to the boldly being queer, sensual. And that's something that I practice here, in this place, you know, in terms of my sexuality as a pleasure activist and with other people.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Erin: So, and I'm lucky enough in my work too, you know, like along with the abortion fund and I, my day job, pay job is with Planned Parenthood, and I'm working, you know, hand in hand with sex educators. So we're,

Dr. Nicole: yeah,

Erin: working a lot. We're rooting ourselves in the bodies. We're, we're like, you know, lucky enough to teach alongside teens who are doing, you know, pure, yeah, pure sex ed.

That is also like, they are the people where they are like, they're the safe, the safe folks to have, you know, like their classmates talked [00:22:00] about sex and sensuality and their bodies, and so,

Dr. Nicole: Hmm.

Erin: There again, a non-linear answer. That's how I love it. Put myself and communicate and I mean, that is sensual, right?

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. So, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, such a good answer. I was thinking about the field of clinical psychology and the way that it's pathologized so much of the human existence, right? I, I specifically think about, uh, prolonged grief disorder. Hmm. And the thought that we would diagnose someone with a problem depending on a arbitrary amount of what is too much grief.

Right. Interesting. Yeah, exactly. Right. Even possible. Right, right. Well, in this moment, like, exactly. Exactly, exactly. And, you know, like, hey, I'm all for, like, getting access to coverage under systems and using a label and all of that stuff. But at the same time, a label like that is really interesting, right?

And, uh, grief under [00:23:00] capitalism is not an effective mode of production. Right? You're not, if you're grieving, you can't show up on Monday, right. For work. And so it's this constant push, push, push, push. And I always have talked about in the podcast how, you know, I, I deeply believe that your ability to experience pleasure in the erotic and to orgasm, to have that co, that release of the body is deeply connected to your ability to cry.

Right. I, I find those two things very connected. You know, the, the vulnerability of allowing your body to release, whether it's pleasure or pain, I find those to be a connected thread, which, uh, is what I'm hearing from you is how your grief work is so deeply connected to your pleasure work

Erin: one physiologically, I mean, the, the diaphragm is, I was actually just having this conversation right next to the big lake with, um,

Dr. Nicole: yeah.

Erin: A beloved of mine who is grieving, um, the rupture of a, of a relationship and yeah, she was using that language too, like, are they gonna lean towards repair, [00:24:00] rupture? And I was talking about how like, I think a lot of the heaviness of this current moment, I can cry, I am a crier, but I, it's, it feels very repressed right now.

And so I do a lot of fake crying just to engage that part of my body, which, similar to like, yes, orgasm, laughing orgasms like right. It's just like the places in our body that hold. All those emotions. Mm-hmm. There's, there's certainly a wellness to that.

Dr. Nicole: Right. And you can't choose what you feel. Right. So the more that you open yourself up to pleasure, you know, the more the pain you're gonna feel too.

Right? Mm. And so you're, you're really just expanding your capacity, which means you're gonna feel all of it.

Erin: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Feel and note, note it and, yeah. Yeah. Take that.

Dr. Nicole: I'm curious too, you've talked about a couple of different community spaces that you've existed in for many years. Uh, I'm curious [00:25:00] what lessons you have learned in the longevity of those communities, the many years that you've spent with all of those people.

I know we talked about conflict. Are there other lessons that really feel prominent to you when you think about the years that you've spent in these communities?

Erin: I appreciate that question. I, I mean, it's still baffling to me that I've been here this long. Yeah. And. Um, you know, the hot, the hot militia, the abortion fund mm-hmm.

I co-founded in 2022 or in 2002, and so celebrated 20 years in 20. Congratulations. It was just like, so we were all together last night, our Monday meetings were organizing our spring event, um, navigating some community conflict and Mm, yeah. Um, using, uh, a letter to express ourselves. And, and so we worked, you know, collaboratively on penning that and editing it.

It was so, it was such a rich process, Nicole. It was beautiful. That's something we've never done in the 20 years. We've done many things and I think there's like [00:26:00] one, we're just all so, so committed, uh, in that space. And then, um, we just also, I, I try to insert as much play as possible. Mm-hmm. You know, when you're looking at abortion rights, abortion justice, there's Sure.

Again, a heaviness. And we, um, we really do that well. Like, I think there were moments where we just, you could tell, I, I actually joked, I'm like, this is why we get paid so much to do this work. Yeah, exactly. And, um, but I, I think of just, you know, like, so recognizing that, recognizing the intensity of, of what we come like come to do.

Mm-hmm. And then also, you know, organize events like our bowl of on. And so like, you know, inviting the community to have a bowling party with us after we raise all this money that will support the [00:27:00] fund for the next year. And, um. The other event we have is the hot dish bake off. And so they're again, like plain off food culture that is, was not mine when I moved here, but that's like 20 years strong now, that event.

And so inviting the community to have fun and to show up for these issues and to, you know, to support the work we do and one another and, and, and have a goddamn damn amazing party, you know, like the midst of it all. Yeah. So I think that's like, I've gotta play, you know, I love the intensity of this work and it's, it's also just an innate part of myself to infuse it with play.

So whether I'm writing, whether I'm organizing, whether I'm fucking, you know, like sure it's biking, it's there with me. And I, I think like it's been a powerful thing to do that in this pretty stoic community.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Erin: And um. Just always, ultimately al always find the receptivity there.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Erin: And I think people, like people have other skills [00:28:00] that I'm so grateful to be lucky enough to like infuse into my life.

So I think that's a big one that has led to like the longevity of the militia. I'm 14 years strong in the meditation group.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Erin: Planned Parenthood 16 years, which is wild to celebrate my anniversary. And, um, and then part of a very like, beautiful multiracial, intergenerational writing group, creative nonfiction writing group.

And I think that too of like, we lend support to one each, one another. And there it, it's though, it, it is not, it's not about, it's certainly about growing together and individually, but it's not about striving like beyond.

Dr. Nicole: Mm.

Erin: Any one person or right, like the collective identity, like we're really invested in that collective connection.

And I just think that's something that has never been lost on me of like, again, Duluth was not on my radar and I have been gifted these phenomenal opportunities to be in and with, you know, just like the [00:29:00] building of intimacy with so many different kinds of people. Yeah. Oh, so beautiful. Yeah, it really is beautiful.

Yeah, I mean, it's something very special. My, you know, sister's in la my bestie of almost 40 years is in New York, you know, mom in Dallas, dad in Chicago, and, and I just feel really grateful. I call this little place my home. Yeah. And I have other homes, but this is, it's. It is special what, what I have here.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Erin: And, and how it all like, has built on the different piece. Like one piece is built on the other piece and made it all stronger. And at the core, this, you know, ultimately pretty radical work of Yeah. However you wanna coin it. Relationship anarchy, certainly at the, at the center of it. Mm-hmm.

It's been like, you know, I came out as poly in 2003

Dr. Nicole: mm. And yeah, there wasn't

Erin: even the language really. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like,

Dr. Nicole: yes, yes. Thank you, thank you. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Erin: So I just wanted [00:30:00] something different and mm-hmm. It certainly wasn't reflected. Mirrored around me, and now more and more it is.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Erin: And you're doing this amazing work. So yeah, it's just fun to like grow my community, grow our community, right?

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. To connect with people from around the world and, and feel seen in those two words, right? Mm-hmm. And yeah, I'm hearing the power of the collective, the power of diversity.

And I am, it was reminding me of, um, therapist Danielle Herrera, who had came on the show at the beginning of 2024, and she had done a couple of talks on decolonizing therapy, which is a never ending conversation, surely. And one of the things she had pointed out was, you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs at the very top is the individual.

Right. Like, like the, the individual, not the collective. Right. Which is what she was trying to rewrite. [00:31:00] Like if we were wanting to decolonize therapy, even that sort of concept that the highest peak of ultimate self-actualization would be the individual versus, oh, actually I'm a part of a community. I'm a part of a collective, I'm a part of a generation even.

Right. So just re um, changing our frame here from the individual into the collective, which is what I hear you saying, just how much. Beauty and life you've gotten from all these different people and also the, the importance of pleasure, like you were saying, right? As an activist, there's a never ending well of things to be working on in this system, right?

And so you can burn yourself out so fast, just going, going, going, going, going. And so needing to find that dance between, you know, the activism work and the pleasure work for yourself to be able to rejuvenate and still dance. Finding dance as a radical form of political activism, right? To feel that joy in the body, especially as a queer person who's navigating all of these different, um, systemic forces.

Erin: I [00:32:00] took tap dance, Nicole, for the first time in 43. I took a 43 year atu. How? Because you know, when you're writing a musical, you sure you, you gotta have some tap skills. Yeah. It was so fun. It was actually, their first class was on election night. Oh. That was needed. Lots of stomping into that. It was needed.

It was needed. That shuffle step came in handy.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I did it as a kid. I haven't done it since, but maybe I gotta get some shoes and start making some music. It came back pretty fast. Amazing. Amazing. Well, I feel like we're already hitting on some of it, but I'd love to hear more about why you practice relationship anarchy.

Why is this important to you?

Erin: I could not, I know, right? I hate to answer in the negative, but I, I love that answer when people are like, well, why do you write? And I, I couldn't not write, you know? And I just think it's like, it's how I'm. Here to be in connection again with people placed other can love. And, and I do, I really trust that.

[00:33:00] Like the fact that you're doing this and I'm doing what I'm doing and you know, I just learn about more and more people, you know, across identities that are drawn to finding something that brings them more pleasure, that makes more sense, that connects them more widely.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Erin: To, you know, a another live sensuality, uh, a thing that they can embrace fully and make their own and yeah.

Queer the fuck outta and mm-hmm. I mean, it's fun. It's, it's just, it's a way to be really honest with myself and the world. I think that maybe if I need to pare it down like that, it just is honest, like, you know, when you just Yeah. Something just intuitively, truthfully, just. Settles in your body. It's such a visceral knowing.

And I just read this phenomenal essay by Jessica, the feminist, Jessica Valenti, feminist and journalist, and it, it's a book about, um, women [00:34:00] and gender expansive folks trusting their intuition. And she shared the whole story of like, you know, which we've heard, you know, a young Jessica trusting, learning to not trust, and then the process of like repair of, of relearning.

And that, I think I read it a week ago, and it's just one of those. Those pieces of work, pieces of art that has, again, lodged itself in my body and it's allowing me to look at like my existence, the world in a different way, frame it in a different way, and it's just so, so helpful. Mm.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Erin: And I, I feel that way about relationship anarchy.

It's a, yeah, it's a, it's a whole different way of seeing myself, seeing the world, seeing one another. It's, you know, as a, as a creative, as an artist, it's, it's a re-imagining. Mm-hmm. So it's like, yeah, I, I can't not, because what I've seen in my, like nuclear family, immediate family didn't seem to work. I mean, I do actually have quite a few beautiful [00:35:00] examples of, you know, mono normative, intimate relationships, um, working.

And I celebrate those again, the both and, right. Yes, absolutely. Um. But not for me Right at this moment. If it shifts, great. And I just think like to create those spaces where, you know, people see me that way as like somebody who's tried something different on over and over and over again. And I, I heard a quote by a musician of just that like, you're ultimately striving for failure because it means that you're growing in the process.

Mm-hmm. And that like, each performance is, you know, so different, but you're getting to know the music and the make music differently. Yeah. And I think of that as relationship, you know, like relationship in the same way of, you know, like the actual, like definition of anarchy fits all of that, right. Like we're busting up the old recreating something different.

[00:36:00] Mm-hmm. And that's a. Raw definition, but Sure, sure.

Dr. Nicole: I hear it. How do you define anarchy? Oh gosh. What a question. See, I say you can ask me questions, then you turn the table. I'm like, damn. Um, in this moment, how about in this moment? Right? And that's, yeah. Yes, yes, yes. Humbling. Um, yeah. When I think about the first time that I read about the concepts of relationship anarchy, there was something that spoke to me in my body as well, and you had shared about that you're not the first person to say that.

Many people I have talked to just felt and knowing. Some people have called it, uh, like a bell that they just heard ringing and vibrating in their body that spoke to them. And there was something very similar to me of reading it and just feeling like I remember reading it and then going for. Uh, a walk and just joyfully skipping and feeling like I unlocked something of like, there's so much possibility in my life, um, that I had [00:37:00] never thought of before.

So I think when I think of anarchy right now in my life, I think about it as community, which is a humbling journey. And, and hence I think where when we started this conversation, I was talking about conflict and what it means to go through those things because, uh, I've also been reading Dean Spade's book, uh, loved in a Fucked Up World.

Have you. I love that the listeners can't see, but they just pulled up the book. Yeah. Yes, yes. Exactly. Exactly. And it was cute. 'cause Dean was writing that when we first recorded, like many years ago on the podcast. And so it's so cool to have their book out now and be able to go through that. And they talk a lot about conflict and all of that.

And what it means to build community, I think is going through conflict and holding one another. And I, I particularly think about that as a therapist, right? Because often we get into this space where like, oh, this person has all these issues, they should go see a therapist, right? And so we kinda like push people out into a, a profession under capitalism, under this whole system, right?

And what does it mean to actually hold each [00:38:00] other in our actual communities and not just be like, oh, outskirt this sort of difficulty, I'm, these are the things I think about And transactional most, almost always.

Erin: Oh yeah. Pay for it and Uhhuh. Yeah, he, while playing the clef capitalist card, uh.

Dr. Nicole: Yes, yes, absolutely.

And so I think about all of that. I think about, uh, the feminist saying that the personal is the political, which means every single conversation I have is political. The one we're having now, every interaction, there are a multitude of forces that are at play. And so I believe that the revolution begins in our relationships and there's so much that's outside of our control right now, so much.

And so what does it mean to be present with you? To be present with the people in my community, actually slow down and see them. That's what I think anarchy is right now in our current day and time. And so I'm very humbly moving [00:39:00] through the multitude of lessons of the different people that look at me and call me in, not out, but call me into deeper expansion and growing, uh, gratitude for the people who have done that.

And then how do I do that kindly to the people around me? I mean, it's, it's a humbling journey that I am confident I'll get to my deathbed whenever that is still going. Wow. I learned so much. And there's still more to go, you know?

Erin: May I ask you another question?

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Keep 'em coming.

Erin: We really appreciate that you've centered conflict here in this conversation about intimacy and relationship anarchy.

Yeah. And, uh, we're the, the package MIA is navigating, uh, again, uh, some conflict in our community with one of our community partners longstanding. Mm-hmm. You know, as an abortion fund, the issues. Very stigmatized. Sure. And so to build community is, it requires strategy and, and humility. Certainly. Yeah. And one of the things that we've most recently been met with is that this [00:40:00] partner is no longer willing to hang up, say a poster for our upcoming event.

And one of the things that, some of the language that they used was that they're now taking a stance of neutrality and that they want to be there for everybody. And so thinking about relationship anarchy, I've, I've heard people who say identify as queer, poly, trans, you know, would identify as like, you know, part of communities on the margins say that they do relationship in subversive way, subversive ways, but yet anarchy just doesn't feel right.

And I would love to hear your thoughts in terms of like, if people are challenging you or these ideas in ways that like are trying to stay more neutral.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Erin: Um. That more people can relate to or find themselves in.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. So I feel like I'm hearing two questions there. If so, let me know if I'm hearing that correctly.

Uh, a question about neutrality under the current systems as well as a question of anarchy and helping people to see what it is.

Erin: [00:41:00] And how, like you would locate either one of those arguments or how you do in say, like the larger umbrella of relationship anarchy. Like people are turned off by, you know, the words an, the word, an anarchy maybe as much as they're turned off by the word.

Maybe not as much, I don't know. We don't have to quantify it. Abortion. And, and so I'm just thinking like many things that I've, um, listened to. Kim Tall Bear is an incredible mentor of mine, and, and I know she's grappled with that too. You like, loves what relationship anarchists have lifted and centered and, you know, in terms of challenging the settler state around intimacy and pleasure and relationship, and though chooses to not identify as a relationship to anarchist.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Erin: And I think some of that is certainly grounded in her identity as an indigenous woman, an indigenous queer. Um, I would just love to hear your perspective on that and if you've, if you have moments of conflict that you can remember that are somewhat related to that room. Parallel to,

Dr. Nicole: yeah. I mean, neutrality is still being complicit. [00:42:00] Right? I don't think there is such thing as neutrality.

Erin: Right. That's what we argued in, in, in the meeting last night for about 45 minutes. Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Erin: We weren't arguing amongst ourselves. We, we were in agreement and, um, just trying to, uh, you know, figure out how to assert ourselves.

Like especially right now, there's nothing, there's no such thing as neutrality. Right? And like, again, especially around issues that are so diverse of like body autonomy and relationship anarchy. I mean, those are all woven together. They're not separate uhhuh.

Dr. Nicole: Ah, absolutely. And so I would, I would agree that there is no such thing as neutrality, especially under our current conditions, right?

Mm-hmm. And I appreciate even, you know, the Dean's Spade book that we're talking about there. It has, it's not titled Relationship Anarchy. And yet so many of the same concepts are there. And so often I, it's not that I have to come forward and be like, hi, I'm a relationship [00:43:00] anarchist. Are you one? You know, like that's not always the most powerful way to connect with people.

I would much rather hear someone say, yeah, I care a lot about mutual aid and showing up for people and trying to expand how these, uh, systems are impacting us and becoming more aware of it so I can better show up for the people that I love around me and to write our own narratives of relating. That's beautiful.

I don't care whether you call that relationship anarchy or not. Like it's about the values. Right. And so I think often if people are put off by the concept, uh, sometimes that can be exciting 'cause it pulls them in, right? So much of sexuality, I feel to be like this really juicy candy, like, you wanna learn about this, you wanna learn, like, come, come.

Like, let tell you all of the systems that are present, right? It pulls so many people in. So I think anarchy does have that of pulling people in out of curiosity. But for the people who are turned off by it, there's so much more to speak to the values without having to name it directly. Do you know what I mean?

Erin: Mm-hmm. I think fun when you talk about the candy [00:44:00] too, it's fun to layer, excuse me, layer these identities of silly gender, sexuality, mm. Relationship.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Erin: And then, I mean, really those words, you know, I think they draw people in Yes. In different ways. You know, like whether from say, like a place of pleasure and or a place of resistance.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. 'cause it's often, you know, one of the big things I talk about is how deep it is within our unconscious.

Erin: Yes.

Dr. Nicole: Right. We talk about all the different isms and mono normativity, tivity, all of that is a part of this as well. And it's deep in our unconscious. And I think that's something for me in my own journey to have compassion for when I'm going through.

Moments of expansion, right? You were talking about it like a dance. I often think about yoga and movement. You know, stretching is often uncomfortable, right? We don't wanna pull our muscles and actually harm ourselves, but that space of a little bit of discomfort as you're [00:45:00] stretching to expand the muscle can be really uncomfortable.

And so in my expansion process around these ideas, there's been so many moments of discomfort and kind of battling with, uh, let's not use a language, right? Exploring my relationship to responses of, of craving something, and then getting curious about why I crave that. Because maybe it's part of these deep systems that have been internalized, right?

And so a big thing of my practice has been, Hey, I'm having this thought and I don't wanna be attached to it. You know, I'm noticing the thought. I'm not gonna ignore it. But I'm not attached to it. I wanna get curious about it for myself, or if I'm in relationship with someone, I'm curious about, about where this thought is coming from.

Right. And so I think about that as a part of the expansion is knowing how deep all of these systems are within us. And so getting out of it is gonna take a lot of internal reflection in community, but a lot of internal reflection, discomfort, and realizing that some of our initial reactions are not things that we should [00:46:00] be attached to.

Erin: I love, I've been reading, uh, devouring, spreading the word widely about the book Secure relating by, uh, Sumer named Kelly.

Dr. Nicole: I'll have to check it out. Yeah.

Erin: So, so good. So good. They also do a podcast called, um. Therapists uncensored.

Dr. Nicole: Oh,

Erin: yes, yes. They've been doing that for a long time. And you know, they're, they're bringing their many, many years of experience as therapists, researchers, and queer southerners and badass Texans.

Hell yeah. Texans. And, and they're just like looking at how, again, our attachment styles are shaped by, you know, from subconscious to learned behaviors to, and then like challenging the ways that we, I. Navigate or, or respond in relationship. And one of the things that Sue says over and over is like, you know, like, give it four or five seconds, or, or no, give it the, like the fourth [00:47:00] or fifth thought, the fourth or fifth thought.

She's always referencing that. You know, it's certainly different parts of the brain and how we respond. So it's not you, it's, it's your amygdala. That's one of their places I love. Sure. So,

Dr. Nicole: sure. Absolutely.

Erin: It's, it's been fun to, to like, just hold very dear the work of Dean Spade and both those women.

Mm-hmm. Um, those queer women and the start of this year. Thank you. Thank you, goddess. Yes. Absolutely.

Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. I feel you on that. And the importance of those resources to really change our consciousness around these topics, right?

Erin: Yeah. And such goods like. Good systemic, real systemic grappling in, in very different ways in both texts.

Mm-hmm. And all their research and work. So absolutely. I'll have to check

Dr. Nicole: that out. I love all the resources I get from every conversation. I'm like, yes. Like, so good, so good. Yeah.

Erin: That's the co-learning. That's the co-learning.

Dr. Nicole: Exactly. Exactly. And I'm curious then, we're [00:48:00] talking about it already in so many ways, but to ask more directly, how do you think relationship anarchy has impacted your practice of intimacy

Erin: in many ways,

Dr. Nicole: right?

Yeah, exactly.

Erin: Um, again, first off, I have to, to lift where I live. It's real, you know? So I think there's a part of my practice as a relationship anarchist that recognizes, you know, like what Dean, Dean speaks. So. Uh, broadly about this, you know, just like the things that we carry with us, the things we've learned, and also the, you know, 'cause he's, I think, challenging the fact that he has written a fantastic self-help book and like, look at the systems that allow the self-help industry to Right.

Make millions, billions of dollars. So it's like, yeah, look at the self and then take a step back and look at the systems. And so I think, you know, when I first came out as poly and then later as poly solo and, you know, have tried on and had [00:49:00] fun played with, um, you know, identities like relationship anarchists, it's been part of, you know, just like do doing again, doing that dance, doing that tap dance of like kind of in and out mm-hmm.

Of like seeing those things, seeing like what, what shapes me? And so it's a lot of that is not, it's physical, but it's also heady. Mm-hmm. And so how does that. Yeah. How I, I'm constantly asking that question of like, and I do the work, like I'm, I'm in, I'm literally situated every day in the reproductive justice and sexual health movement.

And, you know, people have their own responses to that. So it's, it's like, again, coming back to my body and my community and, and a very racialized identity, you know, of, of like, how do I, uh, also show up as a pleasure activist and recognize like what that means as a white person to say Sure. You know, and, and to say, you know, to like advocate and organize events.

I, I create an event called, um, pleasure Bodies and [00:50:00] Justice PB and j, inviting the community. I love that to like be together and really dig into a lot of these ideas. And recognize like, well, this event would be very different, say if it was in Minneapolis than if it was here. Sure. And so to like, let people have their responses to these, to these ideas, to these ways of, of expansion that are quite specific to this place.

And so, I mean, I say all of that, but it has been a, a, like a grappling like, it, it drives me bananas at times. Mm-hmm. That there's, the resistance there is that I, I write a f blog called Sex in My City that literally explores the sexual climate of northern Minnesota. It, it's part, you know, creative.

Project, risky creative project, part survival, living here.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Erin: And just, you know, like it's part of my practice to meet people where they are, meet myself where I am.

Dr. Nicole: Right.

Erin: To like, get outta my head to be really proud [00:51:00] about how my own sexuality is loud. You know, I was told last week that like something that I really believe in and I am like a hundred percent committed to advocating for until the, like, until I croak and I'm not in this meat suit anymore.

That it's, it's too loud that we're being too loud. And I think like, you know, we can, we can unpack that in a million ways. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but I think that's part of it too, of like recognizing when I need to turn up the volume and when I need to turn it down. Especially as a white person. Right. Exactly.

Yeah. I think that that's exhausting. And this is a place that, again, the culture is. Contained.

Dr. Nicole: Mm.

Erin: And I, I need to feel the feelings I have about that and also find ways to respect it and, and accept it. Maybe accept it is a better, I think that's a constant part of the practice, so

Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

Erin: That all informs who I am.

And, and I do, again, I come back to the [00:52:00] wildness of this place because I think think there's something in that, that just, you know, offers a, a just a way of being that the work, the creativity just can't. Mm-hmm. I don't know if that makes sense, but it, it is, I can see it now, you know, 20 years in that it's, in some many instances it feels like hitting my head against the wall.

And though it's been so beautiful to, to, to stay really present, to stay here, to stay here, you know, to not to leave with them, to come back and. I was reading a har, uh, Haki murakami's newest book last night mm-hmm. And a complicated, uh, literary figure. And though I, what I love about his work is that he centers this stillness that I think is certainly part of the eastern culture.

There was a sentence that stood out to me, Nico last night that just said, and I was writing about, like, even before I read this segment of [00:53:00] like, why? And I'm thinking like, why am I so drawn to his world? Why have I been, but it's that he, he centers the stillness. And there was a character that said in this place, because there's a, a world within a world, he's an incredible world builder.

And that like literally within a wall and, and this character says here, we allow things to just take their time. Mm. And and I think that's such a part of this work. You know, certainly a part of like we are essential beings and, and advocates for like, again, like a larger collective knowing of pleasure.

And yeah, I think, I think part of this has been like, uh, you know, like I have a lot of fire in me.

Dr. Nicole: Hell yeah.

Erin: And just balancing like when to, what is it, Valerie car speaks a lot and revolutionary love about, you know, like breathing and then pushing. Mm. And that has been helpful to me. Yeah. Breathe. And then push and push some [00:54:00] more and don't forget to breathe.

Um, but I think that's still part of this work that we do mm-hmm. Is that it's a lot of many things that allow us to like. Both take our time and then recognize that time is, is, is a limited resource and like people are dying. Oh yeah. People are, you know, people feel unsafe because of lack of, you know, access to resources and um, you know, inability to find a language that that resonates for them related to sexuality and relationship and practice that resonates.

And there is an immediacy to this work to get these ideas out. Oh yeah. And to like create safe space for people to talk about them. Like they're not to like center scarcity thinking, but, and there is not enough space here. Yeah. We'll just stick to my community for people to have honest, [00:55:00] real conversations about sexuality, pleasure, queerness.

Trans safety, trans visibility, and the intersection of all these things, and relationship anarchy. You know, I mean, there's just, people are hungry. I mean, I could feel that at like PB and j, like people just were like, thank you for this. And anything that that appears that is out to offer down the community that allows us to be, you know, like our full selves.

I mean, I think when, when I was, you know, like deciding to do this work, I just was like, wait, people talk about this part of themselves and this part of themselves. And it's like, but we never talk about who we are as sexual beings. Oh yeah. And I just was like, wait, why is that pushed off the table? And so I think that's been a part of this work is like, well that part deserves, you know, time and space too.

And then if you look at it in terms of through a collective lens, that part deserves time [00:56:00] and space too.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Erin: So. I think, you know, like the work you're doing is an invitation to give those parts more space and it's,

Dr. Nicole: yeah. Completely

Erin: invaluable.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, I appreciate that. I cried a lot and was really scared to do it publicly while in grad school.

Uh, but it's okay. It's all worked out. I'm very grateful. I'm, as you were speaking, I was thinking about one of the people in my community, um, they work in a government job and also do burlesque. Right? And it's, they're also queer, poly, all the things and the fear they have about their job ever finding out about the burlesque that they do, right?

This really big divide that we have between the personal and the professional and what's allowed to be talked about at work versus not, right? And so, like you're saying, when we don't have language for sexuality, any of these other pieces, part of it is all of that structure where God forbid you let that out.

You could lose your government position because you'd no longer be what respectable. [00:57:00] I, you know, let alone the sexualization we have on even like things like breastfeeding in public, one of the most like natural experiences of our species. Right. Being so utterly forbidden because of what it's sexual.

Yeah, yeah. That's what I'm saying. What is that? You know? Yeah. Yeah. When you really think about it, and I find all of that be to be connected about what we put in, whether it's conflict, like we started talking about at the beginning, put in the private sphere or, or pleasure or even just sensuality, or even just the basics of feeding a human being from breast milk.

Like all that stuff gets put into the privatization, and then that's where we see a lot of, you know, hurt and conflict and all that stuff.

Erin: Because you what I mean, like you were talking about earlier, right? Yeah. Pay for it for both. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Alone in an individual one-on-one, because who wants to do group therapy?

I want all that time on me, right. Oh gosh. You know, like when you, [00:58:00] it's like wow, when you put it all together, uh, yes, absolutely. And so then the power of our voice here. The power of all these other people that have come forward to create resources for the movement that are slowly changing our consciousness.

And, and, you know, it's, it's rising in that sense. Even just, uh, for my dissertation, a very basic Google search, you know, in terms of the rates of people searching, relationship anarchy has increased dramatically. Right? And so there is a cultural consciousness that is forming around these concepts.

Erin: Certainly, yeah. I mean, language and, and also wanna give that to like a younger, younger activist, a pleasure activist who have just, you know, centered language around all the different ways that we can define our sexual selves. And I mean, that. Talk about paradigm shift in the last five to 10 years.

That's an enormous mm-hmm. Enormous dec degree. You know, just like demanding more space for these parts of ourselves in really dynamic queer ways.

Dr. Nicole: Love it. Yeah. [00:59:00] Yeah. The liberation of bringing all that into the light to lift up and release shame. Oof. I'm very excited. 'cause I know when I think back on my past consciousness and my Christian purity culture days, I was the one who was condemning homosexuals, you know, very strongly.

Which is funny to think about now as a queer person, right? To think why was I so passionate about it? Right? And so when I see all these people who are yelling so loudly at us, it's like, what is going on in there for you? That this is such a touchy subject.

Erin: Yes.

Dr. Nicole: Right.

Erin: Think about that often as a queer, trans person and all, you know, like, um, literally on, you know, very risky creative counter protest lines where we're, you know, sharing space with anti-choice folks and Oh yeah.

Lots of questions. Yeah, lots of question.

Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Well, I'm so thankful for the work that you do, [01:00:00] and you know, the abortion that I had when I was in my early twenties, you know. Is the reason that I have the space to do all of this. Mm-hmm. I don't know what my life would've looked like if I didn't have that opportunity to do that.

I, I, sure I could have maybe gone to grad school and done all this stuff, but it would've been a very different world. And so I'm so, so grateful for the people that do that sort of work because it's absolutely needed. So thank you for the work that you're doing in that space. Yeah.

Erin: Sharing your story, and that's so important.

Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. And so, I'm, I'm curious, the last question that we have of the research is, um, what are some of the difficulties that you've experienced with relationship anarchy and some of the joys?

Erin: Last question. Um,

Dr. Nicole: I, I actually have two more. Sorry. I forgot. There's also, what do you wish other people knew?

So I'll, I'll, I'll bring you to when we get there.

Erin: Um, I think the difficulty is choosing this is. [01:01:00] Choosing to live where I've, where I live. Sure. And love it. Love the wildness. And also recognizing that there, you know, and we've talked about this already, um, that there are just like cultural limitations, um, right.

You know, like I, I think many relationship anarchists and similarly identify identified folks are, you know, challenging the systems in terms of like how to be, you know, um, more represented. Um, whether it's in, um, like therapeutic, like therapeutic institute by therapeutic institutions, um, healthcare, medical, industrial complex, just to be seen and to be cared for.

And, um, and then I think when we're talking about whether it's middle America or rural America, there is an element of, and you know, the internet works for some people. I'm very much like preferred to be, you know, creating relationship and intimacy in [01:02:00] person. And so I think there is a challenge that's, that's important to be really honest about.

And again, that's part of why I do the blog or point writing Sex in the City, um, sex in My City because. It is different here than it is even in Minneapolis, you know, referencing. But certainly like the stories I hear about, um, being a poly solo, you know. Queer, trans anti-racist in LA and New York. And I, I think that like, those stories need to be told and it's, it's been, you know, I also am like, I'm 47 and I, and I, and so I think, like, I have been doing this work in a way that's like, it's located differently than say, folks who are in their twenties or early thirties.

Dr. Nicole: Totally.

Erin: And have, have, uh, a vast community of people that are also grappling with these same things. A lot of people have in around, like in my generation, have decided to do relationship in a more normative way. Right. And so there is, uh, is there [01:03:00] is a, a part of this that is, um, like part of my process has been to like hold space to connect with other people and to queer that process but also be really real.

Like, this has been intense to do this work at this, to put it time, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I love my solo space and. I love being in community, but that has been part of like me, again, like being just really honest with myself and with others. And it has, you know, certainly informed my art. And so I think there's just been a difficulty in like, where I am, where I call home.

And it's not just here, like Durham, North Carolina is another home and you know, like I love the southernness there, there's like a grittiness, there's like creative pulse that is like no other. Yeah. And that too was an interesting place to be, you know, relationship anarchist, I'm sure. And, you know, queer and trans and, [01:04:00] and so I completely trust these places though, these relationships that I've, um.

I have made with place.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Erin: And the people that come my way. So part of it is just allowing it to, like allowing people to, again, like allowing it to take its time.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Erin: And to. Be present with my heart brokenness in that. Sure, sure. Absolutely. Yeah, so I would say that has been the difficult, it's like we're just, we're, we're the folks pushing, we're like at the edge and it's amazing to see.

Uh, I long talks a lot about, he's around my age and he talks about being an elder in training and I'm only, I really have, I just had the most amazing elders in my life starting my very beloved Grandma Ruth. And so I'm like, if I can aspire to, that's what I'm in training for. That's part of this. And so it's interesting to think like, I've had so many people.

The, the language, the feminist [01:05:00] language of like, you know, the people before me. The Oh yeah. People that have laid the groundwork and just like, such reverence and appreciation. And now I'm one of those people and it's, yeah. You know, and the person who's lived in Minnesota is like, oh God, that's too much.

That's too big. I can't claim that. I'm gonna probably claim that like, oh yeah, I have elder in training and you know, I, I've done a lot of. Many years of work here, figuring myself out and lending those experiences to the community, so

Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

Erin: It's been profound and beautiful, and I just have the, the most stunning community of folks around, certainly around the country.

And I was lucky enough to bike tour across the country twice for reproductive justice, and that was hell yeah. The queerest like hell yeah. And the, the, the queer who organized the, the first tour and then was on the second as well, was writing her masters in the politics of Sexuality, and she had biked towards [01:06:00] solo, and then she was like, what?

No, the next year she's like, I need like a g. We bikers. Hell yeah. And it was so phenomenal because there were like such an array. There were those of us who had like a really developed intimacy with our bodies in relation to bicycles. And there were people who had never biked more than 10 miles.

Dr. Nicole: Wow. Wow.

That's a big shift.

Erin: And we, yeah, it was huge. And we biked the first tour of New Orleans to New York City.

Dr. Nicole: Mm.

Erin: And I think like locating myself within that group, almost everybody else was from Urban America.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Erin: And had very different relationships with reproductive justice. So we were also navigating that.

We would roll into these communities and we would have, we had organ pre-organized community conversations about body autonomy and the movement and reproductive health activism. And it really was an invitation for me to just look. On a national scale of like, oh, that's what this means to be me, to be doing this work where I do it.

Mm. And I actually thought I was moving from Duluth at that point. [01:07:00] I mean, I packed up my whole life and then I was like, no, it's the place to go back to. Yeah. Like, it's the place to do this work.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Erin: So

Dr. Nicole: all of the roots that you've built mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. An elder in training, again, the community focus, the highest joy to be that community focused rewriting Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right?

Mm-hmm. To more of a community focus here with that. And so I, I see so much of that and yeah, there's so many people who have reached out to me who talked about the difficulties of trying to do this in more rural areas because. It's harder to find people in those areas who share these values. And so I feel very lucky to be in Chicago to find so many people that resonate with this.

And so there is definitely a privilege to that of living in a cityscape. And so the, the more that you're in rural areas, I can imagine the more that you have to go through conflict, even more so, right? Because. Those are the people you got. When we think about queer community having to go through conflict and you add relationship [01:08:00] anarchy on that, and you're in a rural space, now you're really going through it because these are the people that get what you're talking about.

Right. And so I do think it's beautiful to think about the ways that, you know, these situations force us to develop these skills in ways that I think is really, really strong when we look at our community.

Erin: Yeah. And they can be, they can not get you too. Yeah. They can be like your community and then they can not get the parts of you that they can feel really threatened, um, by say the relationship anarchy to queer ways of doing.

So. That's been interesting too, to like build community around identities and issues and then to have. To me, identities and issues that perfectly compliment like queerness and transness. And yet for many folks in that community, they, they don't, or they don't yet, and sort of feel, you know, the aversion there too.

Dr. Nicole: Right? And even the people that we do have that value [01:09:00] to value alignment with, it's always important to remember that. We exist in our own perspective, our own lens of reality. Right. And so you are existentially locked within your own perspective. The existentialists often use like such negative terms.

They, they would say, uh, I have a post-it note somewhere up here, and it says, uh, we are all condemned to be free. Right? It's like condemned. I'm locked A list of their favorite word is crisis, right? Yeah. Crisis. Right, right, right, right, right, right. Exactly. Exactly. You see it. Okay. Um, so yeah, if we're locked in here, we're condemned into our own perspective, right?

It, it means that even the people that we feel, wow, I have the same values, the same thing. You know, even our lovers that we spend time with, we think we're seeing the same story. But the reality is you have a story and I have a story, right? There is no capital Teach Ruth. It's the mix of both of our perspectives.

And I remember, um, there's a book from Irving Yalom, who's. More of a existential relational therapist who [01:10:00] was providing therapy to another psychotherapist, and they ended up taking notes at the end of each session about what was most significant that they thought out of the session. And when they finally compared all their notes, they were completely different things.

So my supervisor told me that to be like, you know, Nicole, like do your best, take accountability, learn, you know, all of that. But also at the end of the day, the things that you think are really helping someone might not be any of the things, right? And so I think even when we do share values, it's inevitable.

Hence where conflict comes up, right? It's inevitable that we're always working within our own lens. And so a bit of humility there to know that there is no capital T truth. There are always two sides, three sides, four sides. How many people are there, right? But we all have a bit of the experience and there is no capital T truth in that.

So, so always honoring that, which is also what I find so beautiful about relationships, to know that even the person that you could spend every day of your life with is still a complete individual being all of themselves with so many deep rivers and oceans of [01:11:00] thought that you will never even be able to tap into.

They're a complete universe of a human before you. And so it's hard to feel that in the day to day when you're just rushing through things. But if we really stop to think about the profoundness of the human existence, like you, Erin, are a whole human with a just multitude of stories and wisdom and meaning making that, you know, it's so beautiful.

I think when we really can slow down to tap into that level of. Ness for the people around us.

Erin: Yeah. I, I appreciate you lifting that of like, there's no capital T truth, there's no capital s story too, I think.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Erin: You know, we're talking about that on many levels in terms of like a, a different, I think it's like deeply woven into like old meditate, mindfulness practice, um, about being aware of the, you know, the stories, thoughts, but I think that too, and then you, then you blow up the notion of say, being in intimate relationship with one person.

So you're [01:12:00] literally weaving together like our internal stories and the many, many stories of the multiplicity that you're Yeah. Connected with.

Dr. Nicole: Mm.

Erin: Mm-hmm. Powerful meta there, but it's true. Yeah. No, but it's all

Dr. Nicole: right there. Yeah. Right.

Erin: And that's part of like, again, creating. Time and space to like be with ourselves and then to be in connection there.

There's a lot there that I think wasn't acknowledged for so, so long. So like the complexity of who we all are. I mean, ultimately that's what we're giving space to and the work that we're doing.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Erin: And then inviting others to do the same, so Absolutely.

Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. It's a humbling journey. That is my favorite word of this.

Humbling. Uh, well, I know we touched on some of the difficulties and you also shared some of the joys with community. And so I'm curious for the last question. What do you wish other people knew about [01:13:00] relationship anarchy? There's

Erin: a shimmery, shimmery shay quality to it. Mm-hmm. That is. Like nothing else.

It's, yeah, it, it makes me think of, you know, I'm here less than a mile from the Big Lake, from Lake Superior, and not everybody resonates with big water, but a lot of people do. And I think there's something in it. Nicole just held up for him.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Erin: yeah.

Dr. Nicole: I'm from California, so I grew up at the beach, you know, that's so essential to me.

Yeah.

Erin: Yeah. And I, I think it is, I think because there's a depth to it that, you know, I think the words language can be somewhat limiting. I love both those words. I love how they're paired. Yeah. And the, the like, elementally, what's there is, is that vast, and I think it's, it really does, I keep using the word invite, but I really do think relationship anarchy [01:14:00] invites every person to like, redefine, reconfigure, rediscover these parts of ourselves that have been defined and configured by other entities.

And I think just right there is, again, we can make that headache, but we can also be so completely in our bodies and in community with these ideas. And I think there's, I mean, I'll center freedom here. Yeah. There's a freedom that is here within the practice, within the knowing, within the connecting about relationship anarchy that I feel, say when I'm standing next to Lake Superior and I'm, you know, like fucking another person, right?

When I am like climbing a tree, when I'm bicycling across the country, when I'm organizing an event, when I'm really loud about injustice. Mm. When I'm writing a piece, editing a piece that just, it's like, how did I not tell this story before now? Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Erin: So I think it's all those things. It's, [01:15:00] it really is just, it's.

Sensual, it's alive. And I, I like, I want people to, to know that and to try it on for themselves if it feels right. And we are like right at the beginning of this. Oh yeah. There are so many people who want to like deeply, deeply desire ways of doing relationship differently. Yeah. And I just, that excites me.

We're in this together. That sounds somewhat cliche, but like we are like, it's such a collective effort and I think sometimes people feel really isolated. You know, I lift that in terms of the difficulty, but it's, this is like, this is movement work. Oh yeah. And as a person who's like rooted, you know, themselves in movement work for my, my per my adult life.

And I even before that, like that to me is so profound. It's like we are so ready for this. And I think that trusting that is something that like. [01:16:00] Galvanizes me and gifts me with like, pleasure and, and trust. Mm-hmm. In ways that like, maybe right now, this moment in 2025, you know, seemingly few things do, but I come back to that a lot.

That's why I'm doing the work I do. Like I wanna share. Yeah. You know, because I really hate to have that, to have that trust in, in it, in all the people that are being drawn to it is. Mm-hmm. I mean, just an incredible gift. Like, just like full body gratitude, right? Yeah. Yeah. The way I would define love that I get to live and practice love.

Mm-hmm. It's, yeah, I mean, it's radical. It. Invites me to engage my imagination alongside other people. Mm-hmm. And those are the things I live for. So.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I can feel it in the ways that you're speaking about it. The way that it lights you up, it gives you that zest for life.

It's difficult work, [01:17:00] challenging work, but it's also pleasure filled. Right. And that being, that balance between the two. And so it's been the coolest people are doing it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. We are a ball to hang out with the most amazing people. Yeah. And I always think about it too as, um, a sort of metaphor.

If we think about our relationships as a paint by numbers, right? Relationship anarchy would be coming in to say like, Hey, well let's think about these lines. Let's think about the, the colors that they've chosen. Let's think about who sold you the paint by numbers and said this is what you were supposed to do.

Who's benefiting from that? Are you benefit? You know, and then transitioning into a blank canvas. Which, you know, the existentialists will say that anxiety is the dizziness of freedom. It's ard I have up there like Right. So when you look at a blank, can you say that again? Uh, anxiety is the dizziness of freedom.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so [01:18:00] when you think about a blank canvas that can be very jarring, right? What am as an artist, I'm sure you understand that, right? What am I putting up on there? We're all artists. I'll also stand for that. Um, and, and let, at minimum in the narratives that we create about our lives and the stories of who we tell ourselves we are.

Uh, but when you look at this blank canvas of relationships and you have all of this freedom, it's the joy and also the fear of that, all of the endless possibilities that you could create. But I, I will choose that any day over the paint by numbers and being put into a box and sold something. I will choose the freedom and the fear and the unknown of whatever I'm creating for the joy and the life force that I feel in my body when I live into this.

Like you were saying at the beginning, the authenticity and the honesty that you find in your relationship anarchy practice.

Erin: Yeah. Yeah. I love that we circled back to paint too. That was the, the very first couple sentences that we shared.

Dr. Nicole: Ah, [01:19:00] absolutely. And when you were sharing about nature, I was just thinking about how I, I feel like, um, maybe not answers to life, but just the wisdom of life being paralleled in lots of different windows.

Right. Whether it's painting or nature or these other moments where you can kind of look and see wisdom from all these different things that parallel out. So

Erin: yeah. Offers just, uh, connectedness. Mm-hmm. That is very alive. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Dr. Nicole: Well, as we're coming towards the close of our time, I'm gonna take a deep breath with you.

And I'm gonna check in and see if there is anything else that you wanted to share with the listeners. Otherwise, I have one final closing question for you that I do for all of the guests.

Erin: Oh, very content.

Dr. Nicole: Okay, great. Well then the last question that I ask every guest is, what is one thing [01:20:00] that you wish other people knew was more normal?

Erin: Hmm. I often choose to not use the word normal

Dr. Nicole: anarchist check. And that is, that is the secret test. There you go. Yeah.

Erin: Uh, it's a pleasure, is a really fun word to use. Out me.

Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah. People always think I'm talking about sex. Whenever I use that word. Immediately, I'm like, wow. Expand folks. Expand. Have you ever had a bowl of ice cream?

Wow. Like pleasure. Pleasure.

Erin: Yeah. I think that, you know, just like go use the word, let's all use the word pleasure more. Mm-hmm. And queering too. I love the word queering. They go so well together. Like queering pleasure. Hmm. I'm in. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. Does that answer your question? Yeah.

Yeah, it does. I think queering pleasure is a great [01:21:00] answer. Yeah. And I feel they're everywhere.

Erin: Like they're everywhere.

Dr. Nicole: Yes. Right. And I find that to be so deeply connected to relationship anarchy and everything that you have shared today has been that deep embrace of the pleasure and the pain. Right?

What does it mean to work within these systems and against these systems and to have hope and trust in. That another world is possible and that we can bring that world closer into our current reality through our interpersonal relationships and trusting just as there are people who have come before us, right?

We stand on the shoulders of giants as you've spoken to, that we are also laying down that groundwork, like you said, and elder in training, right? For the future generations to run with the liberation that we could have never even dreamed possible. I, I hope their psyches are less burden with some of the stuff that you've gone through, that I've gone through and, and that brings me joy every single day that I do this work.

Erin: Yeah. [01:22:00] Thank you so much for this conversation.

Dr. Nicole: It's been such a joy. And before I let you go, I wanna make sure I also, uh, ask where can people find you who have really enjoyed everything that you've shared? How can they connect with you?

Erin: Well, I have a blog called Sex in My City and it's at aaron teo daniel.com.

I'm on the socials but sparingly 'cause I choose to be in the wilds. Yeah, so, um, I do keep a running. You can find my handle at Instagram is O Daniel Aaron and I use it as a virtual library. So a lot of the, the texts that I referenced, uh, will be listed there. Great. Many, many, many of them. Center pleasure, activism and relationship anarchy.

And so I know many people enjoy taking a look. Amazing. Amazing. Well, Erin, we'll also share one with hot Dish militia. You can find more about the hot dish, hot dish militia abortion fund, uh, online. [01:23:00] And I don't think there are any other hot dish militias in the the world. So yes, enjoy the search. Enjoy the search.

Dr. Nicole: Yes. Well, Erin, it truly was such a joy to have you in the space and to be building community and resources for the movement with you today. So thank you.

Erin: Thanks for your work, Nicole

Dr. Nicole: If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast, and head on over to modern anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I wanna thank you for tuning in, and I will see you all next week.