222. Relational Ecology: The Interconnectedness of Our Pleasure with Kristina Scott

Dr. Nicole: [00:00:00] Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Christina join us for a conversation about the collective rebirth of our sexuality. Together we talk about coming home to yourself, trusting in the wisdom of free time. And unpacking the severance from our pleasure. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.

I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in [00:01:00] psychedelic integration therapy, and I am also the founder of the Pleasure Practice supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships.

Dear listener, Ugh. Relational ecology. Yes. Yes, yes. Dear listener, you know, you've been tuning into the show. You know that I'm always talking about community, the way that we, our identity, our sense of self is formed in relation both to the people in our lives as well as the ecology around us, right? The systems, the plans, all of it is a part of how we see our concept of self.

There is only the self in relation, not just the individual. And so today's episode is really getting into how the systems impact us, because let's be very, very clear, the systems [00:02:00] absolutely impact our sex lives. Often on a unconscious level, all of the narratives, the scripts, the expectations that are so, so deep within our unconscious.

Right. And also within our nervous system, the stress of the world right now. Yeah. How are you supposed to feel good in your body when all of that is happening? Right? And so talking about sex and talking about embodying our pleasure through all of this is a hundred percent political. And I am here for you, dear listener, to keep having these conversations.

To keep showing up with real, authentic dialogue with other therapists, activists, other healers, other radicals who are challenging the system. And may all of us continue to tap deeper and deeper to the pleasure that is your right, that is absolutely possible within your body. And maybe do that in community.[00:03:00] 

Dear listener, I'm so happy that you're here and a part of this community. Hello. Hi. I love that you are here. I love that you are tuning in, and I am loving this journey with you each week, unpacking, growing, learning, unlearning, and learning again, and so I really hope that you enjoy this episode today with Christina.

Alright, dear listener. If you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and resources@modernanarchypodcast.com. That's right. Fat Cat linked in the show notes below. And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon porters, and we have a new Patreon member. This is so exciting.

I'm loving this back to back weeks. Yes, hello. Let's keep this running. Ika, thank you for joining the [00:04:00] Patreon community. Thank you for supporting this show. I hope you are enjoying all of the post connecting with other pleasure activists and supporters of this community because it is a joy to have you.

So thank you. Thank you, thank you. Dear listener, if you wanna join the Patreon community. Get exclusive access into my research and personal exploration, then you can head on over to patreon.com/modern Anarchy podcast, also linked in the show notes below. And with that, dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode.

Okay, Christina, the first question that I ask every guest is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners? Gosh.[00:05:00] 

Kristina: Oh, I'm always so aware of the challenge of like looking in on myself and how to frame that. Hmm. I think I'm aware right now. Um. Because I live with my family of origin, just being a human in a family. Mm. Um, a sister. It's my brother's birthday today. Lover of this earth and being on this earth, I think, and the, the beings on it before anything.

And then as far as my work goes, you know, the kind of litany of professional things. I'm an associate psychotherapist as of right now, and I specialize in embodiment and pleasure and sexuality, and five. Connection to the earth and how all of those things go together.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Well, I am so delighted to have you on [00:06:00] the podcast today, and I'm so excited to be here.

Yeah. To see all that we're gonna talk about. I feel like in preparation for your episode, I read what you had submitted in terms of topics that were alive and exciting for you. And I feel like a, a pitcher that's about to throw a nice ball for you to just hit outta the park. Mm-hmm. And so that first question, that first pitch for you is, so Christina, what do you feel like is in the way of all of us collectively accessing our pleasure?

Woo. I know. I was like, right, you got an hour and a half, let's run. So, wow.

Kristina: Dude, I was only an hour and a half, huh? Okay.

Dr. Nicole: Yep. We're gonna do it. We're gonna go, dang.

Kristina: What's in the way of us collectively connecting with our pleasure? Yeah. Oh my gosh. Ooh. [00:07:00] Yeah. That's a big one. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, I was having a conversation yesterday with another, another practitioner and oh, a couple weeks ago, and this image keeps coming to my mind and it's connected to the word severance.

And I'm gonna screw up the name of the book and the movie. I think it's the Golden, golden Compass I wanna say. Okay. Um, there's a movie quite a few years ago now about, I. It was like human beings in this magical realm where they had like an animal spirit that was connected to them. I'm gonna go off a little bit of a weird, let's do it.

I'm ready for story time. Side, side, journey side. But like in the movie and in the book, they had these animals that they were connected to and they're, you know, very real. And something was happening to the kids in this world. Um, they [00:08:00] were getting like snatched off of the street and then coming back and they were like zombies.

And everybody's like, what's happening to these little kiddos? And they didn't have their animals anymore, and which is horrible. It's, this is, yeah. It's like their, they can't be a whole being without their animal person. Mm-hmm. And then come to find, you know, in the movies, Nicole Kidman, she's this evil, bad guy person and they've got some whole nefarious plot.

Um, but in it, there's this horrible machine where they put the kids in and the animals are on the other side and they literally like cut the connection Wow. Between their kids and our animals. Um, and it's this horrible like soul level rupture for both of them, and they just wither without each other.

This is my memory of this story. I apologize to fans of this, this series, um, but I feel like trauma is a word that is out in the world quite a lot right now. [00:09:00] And when I think about that word and what prevents us from accessing our pleasure, I. It's all of the layers of violence that are done to us, all of us to our earth.

You know? And I think that's the original, I think about this. To me that's the original severance from our wholeness. You know, this being taken or pushed out of that connection. The like dehumanization of the earth beings that we live with and our connection to them. And you know, the subsequent layers of disconnection and violence and dehumanization that happen, you know, downstream from that.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Kristina: So, yeah. So when we're talk, you know, when people come in and they talk with me about trauma, what [00:10:00] always comes up for me, and I think something I always speak to is how trauma separates us from ourselves. It separates us from one another. And like, how can you really access, you know, people come in wanting to talk about, I wanna have a better sex life.

I want this, I want that. All of these beautiful experiences, I'm so here for it. Mm-hmm. I love it. Mm-hmm. Yes. Absolutely. And also like, where are you? Are you actually in yourself? Let's talk about that.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Kristina: And let's talk about everything that gets in the way of that. Mm-hmm. You know, so it's, it's huge. And I think that it's very deep and very, it's a long-term process to come back to yourself and I think from that place, be able to connect with, with others.

Yeah. Not that one comes like before another, I don't think there's, [00:11:00] it's like a linear process. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's, it's a hard question to answer because I think, to me it feels so big. Oh yeah. And like so daunting. Yeah. Just like where do we start? Absolutely. Start, my God,

Dr. Nicole: this is about to be the rest of my career and probably your career and until done.

Yeah. For real. One day, right? My last breath will be exploring this very question, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 'cause you're right, it is so multifaceted. There's so many pieces that are all wrapped up in this, and I think about. I think about, you know, like Stockholm syndrome, I think about how deep so many of us are, are carrying tension in the body mm-hmm.

And disconnection and mm-hmm. Not being aware of it. Mm-hmm. Because it is so our normal day to day mm-hmm. That we can't tap into the other world to even know what is possible. And so, yeah. [00:12:00] I do find it important politically to be able to dream of that world, to try and tap into that world and to talk about the things that are disconnecting us from that, which you're already talking about our connection to the earth, right?

Kristina: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Huge piece. Mm-hmm. How often do we have people who are actually feeling their feet into the grass, feeling their feet into the mud and, and actually sensing that experience, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is. Capitalism go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go show up at, at work. Because particularly in America, you can't get health insurance without that one.

Right. So like let's just add all of that into there and that

Kristina: Oh, yeah.

Dr. Nicole: That's disconnecting us from our bodies.

Kristina: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole: It's connecting us from time and community, which is so central to our pleasure. Mm-hmm.

Kristina: Mm-hmm. And very much on purpose, right? I mean, this is where, yeah. I, I don't know how many years I have spent and likely will continue to spend, spend, you know, up on this soapbox of like, this isn't [00:13:00] an accident.

Right. This isn't an accident. Right. The powers that be are, I like to say they're smart people. Uh, you know, to a degree, certainly, uh, calculating kg, I mean, that's how you get into and hold onto such high concentrations of power. So, you know, I mean, when I really get into it with clients who are open to it, not shy about sharing.

The fact that I feel really strongly that part of the end game of constantly keeping people in a state of distress is that's a calculated act. It's inherently disempowering. You know, look, politicians study psychology. They get it, they get behaviorism, you know, they get social psychology and people can't, you know, you were just saying about, you know, being able to like connect with [00:14:00] yourself and connect with other people.

I mean, this is the core of collective action. And so if you're in this constant state of distress and like, I got, you know, I need to keep the lights on. I need to keep, I can't, what am I gonna do about this, that, and the other thing, you know, where is the room for, for connecting to others and taking action against injustice?

There isn't, this is how I got into, into all of my years of. You know, earth based activism and, um, growing food. Mm-hmm. Um, and food security. Mm-hmm. And that's still very much there of just like, well, what the book, like if, what is this? Back in the day we're calling it Food Desert. And I think that the term food apartheids out there more and is more accurate, right.

Of like, no, this was all done deliberately and on purpose to keep you hungry and in distress. So. Yeah. What can, what can we actually do about that? 'cause fuck that. No, not, [00:15:00] I'm not here for it. So, right. What can I do? Right. And I can teach people how to grow food. That was my Oh, absolutely. That was my little contribution.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mind boggling that we live in a world where I believe, uh, when I last looked, it was something like 49% of the global wealth is owned by the 1%. And you're just, the fact that we live in that sort of fact and we all kind of wake up in that every day, and we don't all revolt. It's 'cause we're tired.

Right. And we don't have time and we, you know. Mm-hmm. But I think, yeah. What can we do? What is the thread that we can pull at to support our current generation and future generations? Yeah. Growing food, me trying to help people to have more orgasms. You trying to help people have more of that pleasure, right?

Mm-hmm. I, I wanna believe in the fact that there are people like you, there are people like me, and we are all actively pulling those threads and that future generations will feel that liberation that we might not even get to dream of knowing what it [00:16:00] feels like in our bodies. Yeah. And for me, when I think about the earth, I do think about consent, culture.

What a fascinating look at consent, right? Mm-hmm. Here is this. Say more about that. Yeah. Oh, I'm so curious. Yeah. Here is this earth that I'm gonna take, take, take, take, take. Oh, for sure. Oh, she is starting to scream and say, no, this is actually really hurt. Actually, I'm gonna keep, take, take, take, take, take, take, take.

I don't care that she's screaming. Yeah. Oh. Like that gives me chills in my body. Yeah. The brutality of that.

Kristina: Yeah. Yeah. The brutality of that. Like when you really sit with it, I'm just like, what the fuck? You know? I look, I. I, again, like, I, you know, I don't think that you can, I, I relate to, I'm an animist, right?

Mm-hmm. This is a, this has been a foundation of my values and my belief system and where I act from my whole life. That like, [00:17:00] everything is imbu of spirit. Everything is alive and has its own beingness. You know? And like, what does it mean? How do you relate really, you know, to this other being, if you're actually acknowledging that, you know, the mountain and the stream and the fish and, you know, the little, the little like adorable plants out on my patio right now, they all have their own essence and their own spirit.

And what happens when you relate to them from that place versus this. Again, like, you know, I, I use the word dehumanizing, like super broadly, right? To me, these are other people, plant people, mountain people, insect people. What happens when you actually relate to them from that place, right? Um, versus what we've had for the last however long of [00:18:00] like, no, these are objects, these are resources.

You know, the conquest in that.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. It's a very different world of intentionality when you're looking from that space and, you know, I hate to break it soya, but we're all connected, right? For sure. Regardless of, you know, where you're at in the world, how the, the actions that we are doing to the earth are affecting.

All of us. All of us. And they're affecting future generations. And I think that people forget or don't hold that level of intentionality and connectedness to know that we're actually all on this planet together. Right. And the things that we're doing are impacting that. And I think that it's tricky though, particularly within our context.

We live in, we're, we're one of the countries that is thriving off of all this, you know what I mean? Other countries are producing the. Things that we're buying on Amazon. So I [00:19:00] don't know how much of us are mm-hmm. Are willing to actually wake up to this, myself included. Right. It's nice to have that Amazon Prime delivery and I struggle.

It's so sweet. I hate it. I hate it.

Kristina: Ugh. I can get it in two days. I know. Love. I could get in sometimes now, and I'm like, damn, fabulous.

Dr. Nicole: Oh, it hurts. It hurts. But I think that, all right, so that, that quick pleasure. Right. That's a quick pleasure we get, but the long term ness of it and what does it mean to be intentional about this?

I mean, I think all of this is connected to our sexuality and eroticism because I do see that our eroticism, I I view as part of our life force, truly. Right? Absolutely. I see eroticism as play. I see eroticism as sensuality. I see eroticism as connection, and so I find all of these things to be connected.

Kristina: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So probably one of my, my biggest teachers over the last. Quite a while now, maybe 10, 15 years, not that long, but [00:20:00] mm-hmm. Has been Han he passed a few years ago. Yeah. And some of his dharma talks are where I got the name for my practice. And he talked so much about exactly what you were just saying about inter being, he called it inter being, which I, I loved so much and love so much.

And I think a lot about the impact of the like hyper individualistic soup, how we live in, you know, and what that means for our aliveness, for our embodiment, for our pleasure. And again, back to this, you probably see this too and be curious to know how you feel about it, but so much of. The conversation around sexuality and pleasure and embodiment is like, what can [00:21:00] I do?

Or like, maybe a little bit farther, what can we, two people max, uh, do, uh, about our, our sexual experience? Right. And that's kind of the limit. And it doesn't take in the Yeah. The broader net of, I call it, I've been calling it the, like relational ecology. Sure, yeah. That, yeah, that like supports our own. Like individual quote unquote experience.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I'm, I'm giggling 'cause the, the episode I released today, which mm-hmm. I know this recording will be released in a year. We talked all about relational, uh, ecology with a turner. Yes, yes. Yeah. So I'm giggling 'cause I know that Yeah. That's an alignment. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, I, I think about the ways in which, you know, feminist psychology is always talking about the self [00:22:00] in relation, how we have the self in relation.

Mm-hmm. There's this, uh, I'm gonna read it, this post-it note that's over here. It says the paradoxical truth of the human experience. We know ourselves as separate, only insofar as we live in connection with others. Mm-hmm. And that we experience relationship only in sofar as we differentiate other from the.

And that was from the book in a different voice, which, ah, I forget who wrote that. But, um, one of the like early, uh, psychology feminist psychologist and I've always tried to hold that, that we do have the self, right? Sure. You, Christina, have lived through a series of experiences that I, Nicole have not, and we have had different life paths, but both of us are formed by the relationships around us.

They are mirrors, they are ways that we see parts of us reflected. The language that I'm using was created from beings from way before me. Mm-hmm. These concepts. Mm-hmm. [00:23:00] These ideas. There never is that false self. That's always a self. Relation. And so when we're thinking about something like sexual pleasure, we have to examine all of that, right?

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. It's the self, your relationship with self, the thoughts that are going up here and understanding that all of that is shaped by your cultural context. So

Kristina: totally.

Dr. Nicole: The narratives that you have around sexuality are so deep within our conscious and unconscious. Mm-hmm. And it takes that level of perspective, I think, to get outside of often the boxes, at least in my own mm-hmm.

Lived experience. I grew up very Christian. I grew up under purity culture narratives, and

Kristina: Right.

Dr. Nicole: That specifically taught me a very concrete way of being that was so reinforced by my society, and it took a lot of unlearning and getting into new communities and new spaces to even see a whole different world.

Mm-hmm. And so I think that all of us, if we could take that sort of lens to understand [00:24:00] that it's not just you, it's not just the. Partner or people that you're connecting with, it's also your cultural context. Mm-hmm. What are the narratives around pleasure and sexuality that are being reinforced around you?

Like water, like fish in water that constantly you don't even think about constantly.

Kristina: Yeah, yeah. Constantly. Yeah. And it's like you can't even see it. Nope. You can't even see it. But it's, I think that people feel it though. Oh, I agree.

Dr. Nicole: I think the suffering, they feel it. Oh man, I, you know, I hate the DSMI mean, I, again, I'm here, I'm here, I'm, I'm here for, no, can we have a little DSM bonfire?

Dsm Do I do? Literally, literally.

Kristina: Literally, literally, literally. Oh my God. Like, witches over here. Let's burn. Let's, let's have a, let's have a, like a, you know, a, a worthwhile book burning.

Dr. Nicole: I know. Exactly. And so

Kristina: that's a, that's a book burning, I think.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And I, I definitely hold like, neurological things in those sorts of spaces for the dsm, but the rest of it, I'm like, yeah.

[00:25:00] Do you understand how deeply this is collective trauma? This is relational trauma. Mm-hmm. This is nervous system trauma. Like, oh, we gotta get out of these personality disorders. Damn. Mm-hmm. Um, but in there. Yeah. If we're working within the paradigms of what we've been trained in, you know, um, there is sort of, right, there's female orgasm disorder, and I remember reading about it and it had said upwards of like, 42% of women will struggle with this at some point in their 42.

You're telling me almost half. We don't talk about this.

Kristina: Right. Right. What? Right. Like, and how is it, how is it? Mm-hmm. How is it a pathology if fully like half of us are having this experience and motherfucker like, don't make it about me having a disorder make it about like, what the fuck? Why are 42% of us having this experience?

What is going on? Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: Maybe there's something wrong with [00:26:00] the cage's talk that we're all in. Let's talk about that. Yeah, yeah.

Kristina: Let's talk about that. Right. Like, look, I, I, I've been cracking this joke for a little while now. Uh, but like. Telling somebody like I, so I don't, I don't talk about diagnoses unless somebody ask me explicitly because I gotta submit some documentation and it's gotta have a thing.

Okay. Yeah. Right, right, right, right, right, right. Well, let's, let's have a conversation about that and see where we go. Yeah. Well, it feels right for you. And also, FYI, this is my relationship to diagnosing, um, you know, walk, uh mm-hmm. Just to be transparent. Um, but, you know, that's what I tell folks, right? Is like, you know, I can't diagnose people with capitalism.

Right? So, like, let's talk about that. You know, I can't diagnose people with misogyny, you know, and I like one of my, in one of my fantasies, I have enough time and enough years left and enough energy. [00:27:00] And enough like other people who are down to get into this, I'm like, can we make a, do you remember the people's history of the United States?

Mm, yes. Howard Zen from, oh, I wanna say like the early two thousands. I'm like, man, can we make a people's DSM and, and let's talk about all the things that are actually problematic.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Kristina: I'm here for that book

and the, the like, really severe cognitive distortions that go into things like war mongering. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: Absolutely.

Kristina: What's all about, what's happening for you over there, folks?

Dr. Nicole: Right. There's no, it's no sign of health to be well adjusted to a sick society. Right. All's that, and I think particularly about, you know, specifically women's sexuality there.

Mm-hmm. God, what was it? Uh, about 200 years ago, two [00:28:00] 150 years ago, we had this very specific narrative within our Western context to name that, specifically our Western colonized Christian context, because this is part of the. Bloodshed of what those people spread around the world. But within that context, they specifically said that women are passive and demure.

Mm-hmm. And are receptive to sex, but never initiate it so much so that if you were a woman that was, uh, wanting and craving sex, it was actually actually a diagnosis. Something that could send you to a mental hospital because you were, uh, so lost in your libido and a info maniac that we had to send you to an institution.

And I think people forget that, like that is within our collective history of women's sexuality. So when we're talking about the 42 fucking percent mm-hmm. Hmm. We're talking about that history and how it's only been absolutely less than 200 years that we're still collectively healing from that in our Western context.

Mm-hmm. And so, yeah. Where is that in the dsm? [00:29:00] No, it is actually an individual diagnosis of the individual person. And then they have those sections where they try to talk about cultural consciousness on the dsm, you know, and it's like. Where is that discussion of the history of women's sexuality. Mm-hmm.

To name that, to inform clinicians and to inform all of us, it's absolutely missing. And so, yeah. Mm-hmm. I wanna burn the book, the book that says, mm-hmm. It's your fault that you're struggling with anxiety and stress for working three jobs. Mm-hmm. To be able to afford healthcare in America. That's actually your anxiety, not the system is broken.

What?

Kristina: Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah,

Kristina: yeah, yeah. This is a symptom that's just representative of, of a totally understandable response to all of the things, right?

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And I hope that that level of conversation, I feel like, so then I hit this level of conversation with this where you're like, oh no, it is so insurmountable. It is so all [00:30:00] around me.

And I start to hit that fight flight, freeze. And I think for me or Fawn, right, I start to go into the freeze response where it's like, oh no, it's so big I can't do anything about it. And I just kind of collapse. 'cause when you, when you think about the, the scale of the impact of

Kristina: this, it is huge for sure.

Yeah. Right?

Dr. Nicole: And so then I try to think about, okay, what can we do? Because right, the, the big picture is. So broad, but what can we do in the here and the now? Right. What can we do in our collective communities, in our relationships to actually start to make change? And I, mm-hmm. I think that the, we have to trust in the small acts that ripple out mm-hmm.

The, the ripples that we won't even know the degree to, but to trust in that and for future generations.

Kristina: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. You know, I don't know if you feel this too, like if it's part of, part of your awareness. It certainly is part of mine, but like, also [00:31:00] placing, you know, my, my experience of like the, oh my God, this thing is so huge in the context of time and like the simplicity too of like the awareness of like, who is it?

Rebecca Solman. I think we've heard her talk about like. You know, our, our own narrow little lens. But then like, what happens when you actually like widen that and look at like, okay, well where were we say a few hundred years ago? Yeah. As opposed to where we are now. And this like the paradigm shift in how infuriatingly slow that is.

Oh yeah. You know, and, but like for me, I find some solace in the like, all right, well yeah, big ship moves slow. You're trying to turn this fucking gigantic thing that started on this course hundreds of years before I got here.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Kristina: [00:32:00] Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like, like people time versus like tree time. Sure.

Dr. Nicole: Absolutely.

Kristina: You, I used to work on trees professionally and spend a lot of time pruning trees. Mm. And clients. And still when I talk with, you know, friends and family who wanna talk about what's happening with my tree and like what, why is it doing the thing? And you know, like, man, it's, this tree has been here for 75 years.

It's gonna be here long after you and I are gone. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so you are distress about like, what's happening with my blah blah blah right now? Yeah. And it did this thing last year. I'm like, what do you mean it's helping a loved one of mine with her newly planted little mini orchard, so excited and just in the fall and planted all these sweet little fruit trees.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Kristina: And I had to break it to her. It was like, boo. Uh, I'm real sorry. We're gonna have to take all [00:33:00] those adorable, tiny little baby fruits that you're so excited about. We're gonna have to take 'em off. Mm. Uh, because this thing needs time Yeah. To really get established and get strong and like. Get its structure in place so that it can produce fruit for many years from this like really strong, wonderful foundation.

Yeah. And we're gonna help it do that by like conserving its energy, not making babies when it's still a baby itself.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Kristina: Um, we're gonna have to do that for a few years and then it's gonna be on a roll, man. People get bent outta shape about that. I'm like, but yeah. Apple trees can live for a hundred years longer.

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Kristina: So let's, let's slow it down and think about that. Yeah. Perspective of time. Yeah. Yeah. So I spend a lot of time thinking about like, yeah. When I, when I get stuck in that like, oh god. What am I really doing here? Is this actually [00:34:00] helping? Like, yeah, maybe I should just start a, uh, you know, cupcake food truck.

I don't fucking know.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, totally. Throw the hands up in the air. Something simple. Something simple. Yeah.

Kristina: No, I, because I want, I know, I'm like everybody, I was like, I want things to change yesterday. Like I, I'm here for the liberation now. Right, right. I would like the peace and all of the environments to not have the experience of all of the fuckery.

Right. In my lifetime. Right. I would like that. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that's why it's,

Dr. Nicole: yeah.

Kristina: It's like, all right, well,

Dr. Nicole: yeah. Right, right. And I think that's why it's been so healing for me, I think to like, um, to look back to previous. Societies before the White Western colonized land, and how that impacted our sexuality to learn that there were other cultural lenses, other spaces where women were so deeply [00:35:00] empowered in their sexuality.

Mm-hmm. And so to have that sort of touch point of perspective in years to say, oh wow, this was possible in the past. And we are still healing from the collective trauma of that in our own space. And so yeah, the pain of that. But when we're thinking about years, I mean, this is, I, I, it feels so sad to say that this is my favorite statistic, but I.

Say it often in the podcast, because I think it's important to remember that within the United States, marital rape was not illegal in all 50 states until 1993. Yeah, yeah. So it has only been 50 years. Mm-hmm. That it has been illegal for a man to rape his wife. Mm-hmm. Because mm-hmm. Previously she was your property, right?

Mm-hmm. So I think that that sort of perspective, oh, okay. Wow. This has only been 50 years. Wow. There's so much liberation right here at my hands [00:36:00] right now. Right. We still are healing, but this is also a really big time for us to move forward. It hasn't been a hundred. We are in a period of collective rebirth right now in terms of sexuality of what it means moving forward with this sort of liberation right here.

Kristina: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh my God. I have memories of being a fully fledged human and like participating in this conversation Wow. Around marital rape. Wow. I was in high school. Wow. You know, and it's like, oh, for real? Yeah. Really? Oh God.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Mm-hmm. And so as a therapist, right, as therapists, we have to hold that when we're working with people and the cultural context of how mm-hmm.

Someone understands, oh, I have to give my body to my husband. Right. And they consent all, all that.

Kristina: Yeah. And you know, so much of [00:37:00] why that

so much of being able to like tap into like sexuality, embodiment, and pleasure is a skill. The tools that we have or don't have. We bring with us in this experience, like why there might not be enough in that toolkit for you right now to get you where you wanna go. Well, let's talk about that. Yeah. What can we do now?

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Which makes me think again about relationships. Right? What sort of education did you receive or did you not receive? Mm-hmm. In your context growing up right around eroticism, around connection. Specifically when I think back to my own life, um, I went to a very Christian school and what I was taught was the paper and glue test.

[00:38:00] Have you heard of this one? No, I, I'm, I'm so curious about this. Yeah. You wanna hear a horror story? Yeah. Well, so back in the day I was in chapel, which is where we were having our sex ed. And they specifically had someone come up on stage and they said, this is what happens when you have sex. And they took two pieces of paper with glue at the center and they stuck them together.

And they said, you connect with someone and you're brought together. And then when you break up, they pulled the pieces of paper apart. And as you can imagine, parts of the paper stuck to the other. And they said, this is what happens when you have sex with other people. You lose parts of yourself and who is going to want this piece of paper?

Oh, wow. So that is literally, I kid you not the only sex education I got, I never was taught about, oh. [00:39:00] Condoms. I never got the banana in the condom thing, which often in this podcast and in conversations people say, oh, I only got that. And I say to them, you don't understand how cool that is because I didn't learn how to put on a condom until I was in my twenties.

Like, this is absurd. You know? Yeah. And so you can only imagine how that impacted the rest of my own experience and got me to the space where now I talk about this stuff constantly, um, thanks Christianity, but also as a therapist. Now I sit in that moment and I think about, wow, how many people had experienced trauma?

And we're literally processing in that moment, oh, I'm broken. I've lost Oh, oh, oh my God. Just things that are horrific to think about and to teach people. Yeah. And so, yeah. Whether you were with me in that space or with the space of women being passive or with the space, if you're only supposed to have sex with one per, I mean, the shame when we whisper the [00:40:00] word clit in an education class, I mean you, I don't think anyone got out of this whole thing on unscathed by the trauma of shame around our sexuality because Sure.

When I ask people, how do you like to my, my lovers in my own life, like, how do you like to be touched? How do you like to play? And they go silent. Mm-hmm. That is a trauma response for sure. That our pleasure has been so absolutely cut off from us that we can't even answer that question.

Kristina: Yeah. Oof. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I can't even answer the question. Maybe didn't even entertain that there was a question to be asked. Yeah. Nevermind. Like, something I've been tracking is like how there's this like, um. Like fog around desire. Mm. And even recognizing that like, oh, I had, there's something there that I want.

Yeah. You know, and like [00:41:00] the, I'm thinking about like a castle wall. That's the image that's coming to me. Mm-hmm. But like that, this gigantic barrier that there is, that prevents accessing, even knowing that there is a desire there. Right. Like, that's how complete the, the disconnect is, you know? And like, I think is the function of shame.

Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. I'm just like, I don't need to always be here telling you how wrong and bad it is for you to want this thing. You're gonna internalize all of this really nasty, brutal, violent, horrifying messaging. To the point where you don't even know it's there.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Kristina: Yep. Self-policing. Yeah. I even recognize it.

Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: Right. If you grow up in a space like I did where any sort of fantasizing about sex means that you've literally committed [00:42:00] adultery in the eyes of the Lord Bible versus on that one. Mm-hmm. So it's so deep that I would shut off that muscle. And when we think about the brain as, you know, neuronal pathways and muscles, right.

That is a muscle that is so atrophied and then mm-hmm. When you get into, you know, uh, even outside of that culture, there was still so much of. I couldn't even think about certain acts. Right. Particularly depending on your different gender stereo, you know, expectations. Uh, there's a lot of fear around, oh, if I like to explore anal play as a man doesn't mean I'm gay.

Right.

Kristina: Yeah. Right.

Dr. Nicole: And cool if it does, great. Exciting, but so many people are so afraid of that. Mm-hmm. And again, I think that comes back to the cultural conditioning around gay being a problem. Problem. Right. And all of that. And so I think that, you know, even for me too, when I was in these dynamics with, within a dyad, I felt like I was doing something bad to dream about having sex with another person to dream about [00:43:00] having threesomes or to dream about loving another person.

Mm-hmm. So that was another part of my own internal psyche that I completely cut off. It was like, mm-hmm. How dare you think about having sex with someone other than your partner that you're with right now? That's so wrong. And so. It's been so much unpacking to realize, wow, I can love someone, have amazing sex with that person and want amazing sex with another person and love another person.

That is a muscle that I continue to flex and have to unpack in the same way that I had to unpack the beginnings. It. Mm-hmm. It is really this like neuronal pathway that has been so deeply, like we said, the fish in water situation. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, but liberating. It has been the best thing in my life.

It's caused so much joy and pleasure and vitality and life force, but man, have I cried along the way?

Kristina: Oh, for sure. You know, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Can I ask, you know, when you talk about crying along the way mm-hmm. [00:44:00] That evokes certain things for me, but I'm really curious about like what those tears were Hmm.

For you.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah, I think about, uh, the first time that I had sex and lost my, I'm putting this in air quotes, virginity. Mm-hmm. But within the paradigm that I existed in, that was very real. And I remember having sex with someone that I loved and felt so. Lucky to be able to have that be my first experience.

Mm-hmm. And then after that, going into the bathroom and sobbing uncontrollably that no one would ever want me and no one would ever marry me because I am damaged goods. And I think that you can understand, as I talked about the paper test, that's what that was right in my head of I'm ruined and so.

Sobbed uncontrollably. And even, you know, we're fast forwarding now about like 20, you know, many years, [00:45:00] um, to having my first, um, play experience with multiple people and to wake up the next day. And I wouldn't say I cried, but I definitely felt like a slut walking to go get some coffee. Mm-hmm. And I felt like the, the Scarlet Letter and Nathaniel Hawthorn's book really came through where I was like, I feel like everybody knows that I have done this bad, bad thing.

Kristina: So slight like, not in a, not in a good way.

Dr. Nicole: No. It felt like, I was like, oh my God, I'm about to, man, I, Christina, I woke up the next day and I was like, I need to wear a long dress. I need to cover the body. And I joked to my partner, I was like, someone needs to like. Marry me and lock me up in a house. 'cause I've been a very naughty girl.

Like, it was like uhhuh. It was so deep within the psyche. And, and even now in, you know, these, these beautiful multiple partnerships that I've had, I've just cried trying to unpack the reality that I don't have to compare them. So much of my brain has been taught that there's a one, there's a one, there's a one.

And so I go [00:46:00] like naturally into the space of, well, is this person better? Is this person better? Is this person better? And then I just cry. I'm like, okay. You get to have all of it. You actually get to open your heart up to a level of love and pleasure that you have not yet touched. Mm-hmm. And it keeps cracking me open Kristina to this level of love.

Kristina: Yeah. And it's wild. Yeah. Yeah. Ooh, yeah. Holy shit. Yeah. Oh my God. I, I, I, I'm just noticing in myself like mm-hmm. So much. Um. As you were sharing, like kind of the arc of your experience so far of just like, so much excitement for you mm-hmm. Like in that like emergence? Yeah. You know, from this, and, and this is I think where we're talking about like the word liberation.

I think it's used a lot [00:47:00] right now. Um, but like, when I think about it, it's that, right? It's moving from, you know, and we're saying again, when we're talking about trauma, and this is where I'm like, this is a liberatory practice of what does it mean to move from this, like locked in deeply contracted place to where like, you, you don't even know what you feel.

That there is something there to feel out into like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. The expansiveness of like everything that's available to you. Mm-hmm. I mean, beyond. Mm-hmm. Beyond anything you ever really could have imagined. Right. And that's that connection. That's the interdependence. That's the inner being.

Yeah. And just like feeling that and the fullness of that, I think as much as is possible in this like little human container that we walk around in. Yeah. You know, of like, oh shit. Yes. Right, right. Yeah. And that's [00:48:00] that, you know, for me that's that like. Oh, getting into getting into the religion. So I was raised, uh, Catholic.

Mm-hmm. I was a, a kiddo and had a gigantic rebellion when I was about like 11 or 12 and just fought, you know, mom trying to take me to church and I'm having temper tantrums. Meltdowns. Yeah. Because my, I was, I was born before my parents were married. Mm. And they didn't understand why my dad wouldn't go to church.

And then when I was there, my mom, when my mom couldn't take commun and then started having these discussions, I, I came to first communion. Started asking a bunch of, you know, it came from, you know, people who taught me how to think critically from a really young age. And so started asking questions. I was like, Hey, this is all about, my parents are nice people.

Yes. Why can't they come and get the blessing along with everybody else? [00:49:00] Yeah. Yeah. That's so cool. And I'm like, oh, come to find like they're sinners and they're dams and my parents are terrible people. And I was like, well, fuck this. And I, you know, the wild thing is that I think that like my break with the church came because of one of our, like visiting Jesuit praise.

I'm never gonna forget him, father Simon. And he was the one who, mid homily sermon, I don't know what it's called anymore, but mid spiel at Mass. I started talking about non-dual, non-dual religions. Mm. And Buddhism. Mm. And I remember this moment where he was like, yeah, it turns out we're all. Manifestations of God.

And I was like, well, what the fuck am I doing here? Exactly. Question this. No, you don't. You know? And so like, getting back to this, like the severance again from the earth, from our bodies, from one another, one another. Ultimately, uh, you know, I see it as this way of separating us from our divinity, [00:50:00] right?

From our godliness that's always accessible.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Kristina: It's always there. It's just part of reality. This is who we are, this is the being. These are the being that we are. So, yeah. Again, back to the, the brutality of the level of calculation that goes into teaching people that they're wrong and bad and the only way mm-hmm.

To the fullness of their being, to their own godliness is Yeah. Like through this concentration of power, I thought, you gotta be kidding me. Get outta here. Yeah, yeah. Get outta.

Dr. Nicole: It is so heartbreaking to think about the reality that we are naturally born with these bodies that we have. Mm-hmm. And the fact that touching your own body and bringing yourself to a state of ecstasy and pleasure Yes.

Is one of the most divine things Yes. That we can access and give to ourselves. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And you and I both [00:51:00] know how much shame mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Is tied up in that the body that you were naturally born with.

Kristina: Mm-hmm. Hmm.

Dr. Nicole: Oh my God.

Kristina: Yeah. What am mind fuck? I know. Been here all this time. Really think about it.

You're like, what do you mean? Yeah. Hold on. That is so deep. Well, and I think there's a, yeah, I think this is kind of why, what was coming up for me when I was asking about just your own experience of the tears is like, I imagine that for a lot of folks, there's such a. A grief to that recognition of the, the denial of that

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Kristina: Of something that is your inherent right. Fuzzy human being. Yep.

Dr. Nicole: And I, I think back to my episode with Dr. Rachel Smith, who specifically runs purity culture, recovery groups and mm-hmm.

Kristina: Um,

Dr. Nicole: something that, you know, she specifically named growing up as a pastor's daughter [00:52:00] mm-hmm. That she didn't even know she could masturbate until she was in college.

Oh, wow. I had no idea that that was accessible in her body and specifically that running those groups time and again, again and again, she's heard this common theme of, because of the lack of education, particularly being, I'm gonna say the word groomed.

Kristina: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole: And having experiences that. You're not prepared to have the communication, and that's been my own lived exp experience.

Not prepared to have communicated or have any of that. I'm not gonna place the blame on myself. Right. That's an important part of the story, but it is not me. But I think it's an important piece to know that that deeply impacts us, regardless of where you're at on that spectrum of maybe you, because I also have talked to people who grew up in way worse purity culture than me.

So, you know, wherever you're at on that spectrum, we've all been put into a situation where we have not been educated enough on this topic, [00:53:00] let alone our pleasure. Right. And I think that, mm-hmm. Something to talk about too is, you know, in those moments of crying, those moments of pain about it. I think as therapists, we both also know that someone who has been in abusive dynamics, someone who's been in unhealthy dynamics, when they receive love that is grounding and secure, you know what we first do?

What the fuck? Why are you doing that to me? Hey, get out of here. Mm-hmm. It is, mm-hmm. Fighting. Mm-hmm. Sure. And defense first. Even that sort of love. And so I think that the process of actually getting into our pleasure is going to be messy. It's gonna be crying. It's gonna be fighting. It is gonna be grieving.

Mm-hmm. It is not this pretty picture of just waking up one day.

Kristina: Right, right, right, right. Yeah. I dunno if you've had those with folks that you've worked with, but I feel like. Yeah. So many folks come in, uh, you know, just, or just in conversations with people out and about in the world of like, I wanna access more pleasure.

I wanna [00:54:00] be in my sexuality. I'm, I'm ready. I'm here for it. Yeah. I'm like, are you there? Yeah. You ready to cry? Are you, it's probably gonna hurt. It's probably gonna be a lot more grief involved in Yeah. Getting to having beautiful, expansive orgasms. Then you're anticipating I, I'm like, you know, we're gonna talk about that.

'cause I wanna be really beautiful. Well, y'all, you know, it's like I had a, I had a supervisor a while back here, uh, was talking about, uh, recovering from trauma. Yeah. You know, and I, everybody wants to feel better. I wanna feel better. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, great. Love it. Yeah. I want you to feel better too. Me too.

Yeah. And also, you know what else is gonna happen? You're gonna feel better. You're also gonna feel worse. 'cause you're feeling more, yeah. You're just feeling more, you have access to all of it now. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, you wanna, you wanna get into all of the beautiful, pleasurable, erotic things about yourself and connecting to others love it.[00:55:00] 

And there's gonna be some other shit there that comes right along with it.

Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. The healing journey. Right, right.

Kristina: For real. Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Mm-hmm. And for me, too, a huge part of that has been. Psychedelics. That's been a huge part of mm-hmm. My healing journey. And it's also the work that I'm currently doing at Sauna Healing Collective with working with psychedelics.

And that has been a huge piece of this equation, I think, in terms of, I know you do a lot of somatic work. Wow. We, we constantly talk about in the research space how psychedelics are so powerful for healing trauma. They're not a magic bullet, I'm gonna name that right now. It is something that you do in conjunction with integration and community mm-hmm.

Because the psychedelic alone mm-hmm. Is not gonna change your life, folks. It's not, yeah. It's not gonna Not even close. Gonna see it y'all. No. There you how it is going to amplify things. So it Yeah. Amplifies your cognition, but, and it also amplifies your sensations. [00:56:00] Mm-hmm. And if you take a moment to try and quiet the brain and feel into your body.

Kristina, I've had magical experiences on my body, uh, in my body, and that has absolutely changed the game for me. And I think that I'm just, you know, as a therapist, uh, you, I, there's no world where I see psychedelics being. I mean maybe, maybe future Worlds. Mm-hmm. Right. Where I see like the ability for someone to access sexual pleasure in an office and be able to heal through that and have that experience.

Yeah. That is so far away. So far away. So far away. We sex work is not legal in this. Yeah. So far away. And so like what does it mean to empower people to be safe from a harm reduction standpoint and from a pleasure enhancement sta space to be able to access that sort of tool in integration in communities so that they can process what's coming up in their body.

But like you're saying, mm-hmm. If this is the first time that you're trying to do that [00:57:00] on that sort of medicine, it's gonna be rough. It is gonna be fierce and it's gonna be messy. Oof. It takes the lid off.

Kristina: Yeah, it did. It takes the lid off. I can blow that lid. The Smither Marines, right? I mean depending, can go in a lot of different directions, but that's also a real possibility, right?

There's the like cracking. You know, peeking underneath that thing, and then there's the like, oh my God, what happened to my lid? I needed that. It gone, what's a lid? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, you just said something about the, you know, the dream and that one day maybe, possibly mm-hmm. Of the, like being able to, if I'm, if I'm hearing you right Yeah.

Of like connecting to your atic self and your body and having support with that. Yeah. Like with another being who's trained to support you and not, I share that dream. I, you know, doing [00:58:00] the therapy thing again, you know, putting, putting official things behind my name book. You know, also, uh, slowly, slowly training as a somatic sex educator.

Right. Parallel to that. Yeah. And don't know that I will ever do that as my work. I think that it's deeply informing my therapy practice though. Yeah. But like, how much do I wish that there was more room for that kind of support to people? Yeah, yeah. You know, to just connect with themselves with a totally supportive, safe other Yeah.

You know, where there's no, there's no expectation of reciprocity. There's no performance, there's no, there's nobody who wants anything that I'm trying to get anything out of you. You just get to be completely in. Your own experience. What a blessing. Mm, mm-hmm. [00:59:00] 

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Uh, surrogate partners, sexological body workers.

Right? Oh, yeah. Having that sort of experience with the sexological body worker was one of the most like, transparent experiences of my life. Oh, yes. To be able to, like, I love to hear it. I would love to hear it. Yeah. There was so much release, so much breathing. I will tell you, the first thing we did was some, like tantric breathing with the, the first thing we did was looking into each other's eyes mm-hmm.

And grounding somatically. And that was probably the most nerve wracking part of the whole experience before I even got naked, to be honest. Yeah. Yeah. But it was such a transformative experience. And then going back to right about what this was like. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Wow. I, I, I looked at it a few years later and the one thing that I wrote was kind of like you were saying, to be able to have an ex.

Experience where something was not expected of me because growing up I was taught I'm gonna give my body to my husband. I'm gonna give my body to have this experience where I had paid enough money that I had this experience and I didn't even [01:00:00] have to think about giving it back. Which it did come up.

Like it came up during the experience. So I was like, I feel like I should be loving on him. I feel like I should be doing this. And I had to remind myself, no, you get to just receive right now. Yeah. And oh, it was the first time I had any sort of consent conversation. Yeah. Where he asked me about where I wanna be touched and where I didn't.

I mean, it was, oh, when I look back on my healing, that was a huge part of what got me to this space.

Kristina: Mm-hmm. You know, just, it's something I think that always strikes me when folks talk about their experiences of receiving. Yeah. You know, sorry, uh, gone through, um. The Betty Martin's mm-hmm. Wheel of consent.

Yeah. She was on the pocket. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing human. Oh, oh my God. I'm so grateful for all of her work. Happy to hype her up anytime. Yeah. But like Absolutely, yeah. [01:01:00] Going through that, going through a few rounds of that, you know, doing for like, like a pro training and really integrating that into my work.

Right. And just witnessing folks in there where they get stuck and not even a, not even a sexual experience. Right, right. But just doing catch, that's just like, just your hands, right? Yes. Just doing the, playing the three minute game, um, and being like, well, I, they're, they're doing something for me, but I feel like I should get them a little massage, or I should do so, like how heavy that comes in, you know?

And all of the feelings of it can bring up of like, is it okay for me to just receive, for me to just be in my own experience? And not step out of it. There's nothing else for me to do. Yeah. Just be here in this.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Kristina: You know? Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: And the desire to give back to other people is so beautiful. Right. I love that we exist in [01:02:00] a world where it's like, okay, yeah.

If, if I receive this, I wanna make sure I'm giving back to you. And reciprocity.

Kristina: Reciprocity. Absolutely. Great.

Dr. Nicole: However, I think you and I both know that there is a lack of freedom in the world mm-hmm. Where you can't just receive where it's obligated. This feeling of sense of it's the obligation

Kristina: Yes.

Mm-hmm. That you have to, that you're doing it wrong if you aren't, you know, and for, I think, you know, when people talk about like, I wanna do something for them, there's a, I think there's often this like performative quality, you know, that is, is hand in hand with this experience of obligation. Yeah. That I'm not a good.

Lover or good person. I'm selfish. Totally. If I allow myself to just be in this experience for my own pleasure. And even if that's right, and it can go both ways, like I can be in the experience of my pleasure for myself and [01:03:00] offering you, you know, my touch. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. You know, but that's for me like Right.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Wow. Absolutely. Wow. Absolutely.

Kristina: I can do that.

Dr. Nicole: Amazing. Right, right, right. And I'm gonna say this very specifically because mm-hmm. Whenever I start to talk about my experiences with non-monogamy, people get really upset. And so I'm just gonna say for myself. Mm-hmm. I have felt so liberated. To have these sorts of connections where if I don't want to have sex with this person, or I'm not feeling it, they can go explore that with someone else.

I, in my own personal lived experience, there was this amount of pressure when it was a dyad because that was the agreement that we had. Sure. And so I felt responsibility because we had made this commitment, which is beautiful. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But there was no level of, oh, actually I don't like that kink that you're into.

[01:04:00] Mm-hmm. Or actually, I'm not interested in that. Or I'm gonna take a ACY break for a couple of months, years, I don't know. And so being able to be in a couple of relationships where if someone wants something and I can just be like, yeah, that's fine. Go do it with somebody else. This is fine. This doesn't put the pressure on me.

Yeah. I, Christina, I had no idea what level of. Pressure that was putting on me. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Until I got to the space where I could be like, Hey, we're connected. Regardless of whether we do this, we're connected mm-hmm. Regardless of what types of activities we do. It, it felt like such a, a liberation to feel free in, in romanticism without having that sort of like a economy where there's only one monopoly on this.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I had to play the game, like it's mm-hmm. Been very liberatory.

Kristina: Yeah. Well, and, and conversely, like how devalued or devaluing it can be, like, if you aren't willing or interested Oh, yeah. In, in participating in the obligation of, you know, the quote unquote offer. [01:05:00] Yeah. Right. So like mm-hmm.

You're not a, you're not a worthy lover or partner in some way because you're not interested. You're not able, you know? Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. The scripts, they're deep.

Kristina: Oh, yeah.

Dr. Nicole: So I'm unworthy. They don't love me. Right, right. Oh, mm-hmm. Do we even have security?

Kristina: Maybe I don't love them. Right. You know, because I don't want this thing, we don't want all of the same things together.

Like, maybe I don't love them. Maybe this isn't the right relationship for me. Like there's only one, right. Again, back to that narrative.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Well, I know we've gone so many different places in our conversation, so many places, which I, I really appreciate the, uh, container that we've created together and all that we've explored.

And I always like to hold a little bit of space at the end just to see if there's anything else that you'd like to share with the listeners. Otherwise I can guide us towards a closing question.

Kristina: Hmm. I feel like there's so much I [01:06:00] know, you know, there's so much. Um, I'm just trusting that like, yeah, I know I've got, there's more here for me.

And that'll. That'll make its way out into the world has needed in its own time.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Well, we're lucky to have you.

Kristina: Oh, thank you. Thank you so much.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Kristina: It's been so awesome to just get to take this time and get to connect and like you said, just see where we go. Mm-hmm. What a beautiful thing to be able to do that and just be in dialogue.

I love that.

Dr. Nicole: I know it's a joy. Yeah, it truly is. Yeah. Yeah.

Kristina: I'm so like, I'm so stoked. I'm like, oh, this is such a great thing this human is doing. Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: Aw, thank you. I appreciate that. Okay, well, Christina, if you feel good, then I can guide us towards our closing question. Closing?

Kristina: Yeah, sure. Let's get into it.

Dr. Nicole: Okay. So the one question that I ask everyone on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

Kristina: Ooh. [01:07:00] 

Dr. Nicole: I know

Kristina: you aren't the only one. You know, that thing that you want or that you dream of that really lights you up. That might even be so varied in there that it doesn't even come through as like a conscious clear through line of like, oh, this is the thing that I want. But that thing that you're yearning for, like it's not just you.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Kristina: You know, there are, are so many humans out there, and it's okay to want just like step one. Mm-hmm. What a gift it is to be able to, to want, it's such a reflection of your own agness, so. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Nicole: That muscle we were talking about, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Specifically, of course with eroticism right.

To dream and to feel that

Kristina: Exactly. [01:08:00] 

Dr. Nicole: Activation in the body and say, whoa, I feel alive when I think about this. Mm-hmm. And then to actually make that dream come true.

Kristina: Mm-hmm. Whoa.

Dr. Nicole: Talk about creating your reality and then for that, even outside of a sexual space, to flex that muscle in other creative ways.

Yes, exactly. So this is the life life I wanna build and I'm gonna do it. Yes. And all of that being connected, and I feel like

Kristina: all of it.

Dr. Nicole: One of the biggest pieces of that is finding the community. Right? This podcast mm-hmm. Has been the community that I, for years ago, that I needed, that I didn't even know existed.

Totally. Right. And how much that has changed my life and, ugh. The biggest thing I always like sing again and again to the listeners is find the community spaces where you are seen. Mm-hmm. And challenged. And celebrated in these aspects of your life, and how transformative that will be.

Kristina: Mm-hmm. Truly.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Kristina: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And like the reverberation out from. Your own, [01:09:00] again, back to the like the interdependence, the inter being mm-hmm. The community, the collective,

Dr. Nicole: yeah.

Kristina: The reverb from your one experience of just like, for you like opening up from this place of this deep contraction of like, I can't, I'm not able to, it's bad.

It's wrong into like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. There is so much more out here. I am so much more, and I get to want all of that. And what the fuck happens for all of us when we're able to tap into that? Holy shit.

Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. I'm here for that. Revolution it into it. Yep. Yep, yep,

Kristina: yep.

Dr. Nicole: You know? Mm-hmm. Well, thank you for, uh, taking a part of the movement with me today and for Yes.

Creating the ripples that you and I will never know how far they go. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. It's been such a joy to have you. Yeah. It's been

Kristina: so wonderful being here. Totally. Thank you so much. Mm-hmm. [01:10:00] 

Dr. Nicole: And for all of the listeners that have really connected with you and wanna learn more about your work, where can they find you?

Kristina: Uh, they can find me at my website, uh, the garden of Yes. Dot com. That's me. I have an Instagram too. You can look me up. Um, it's very quiet, but one day that'll, that'll rev itself back up again. That, yeah. Website's the best way for now.

Dr. Nicole: Great. So I'll have all of that linked in the show notes below so that people can find you.

And again, thank you Christina, for joining us today.

Kristina: Yeah, thank you so much, Nicole.

Dr. Nicole: If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast, and head on over to modern anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I wanna thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next [01:11:00] week.