241. Relationship Anarchist: Kara

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole. On today's episode, we have Kara join us for another relationship anarchy research conversation. Together we talk about the rebellion of queer spaces, the politics of parenting, and deconstructing the myth of romance. Hello, dear listener, and. Welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday.

My name is Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist, author of the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and founder of the Pleasure Practice supporting Individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships. Dear listener, oh, it is such a joy to be bringing you these episodes with other community members and.

Really inviting all of us to expand and see that we all have multiple relationships. You've heard me talk about this again and again on the podcast, how I have two big career goals. One is to dismantle rape culture, and the second is to invite all of us to see that we all have multiple relationships, whether we fuck multiple people or not.

We all have many relationships. And what excites me about that vision and that frame shift is the ways that we'd be bringing more intentionality to all of our connections, all of the people that we meet. Not just the sexual, not just the romantic, actually a much wider expansion to see how important your whole community.

Of people that you interact with is, and the ripples of political change that we can bring when we really see that level of intentionality. And so, dear er, I'm happy that you're here. I'm so grateful that you're learning alongside with me, and it's such a joy, such a joy to be growing and expanding each week as we explore what relationship anarchy means to you.

Ah. Alright. Dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure. You can explore my offerings and free resources@modernanarchypodcast.com. Linked in the show notes below. Dear Listener at the Pleasure Liberation at Sexuality Groups. This is a one-time group that I run each year and February we get really deep into all things sexual expansion, and it's only for six people.

So if you want one of those six spots, if you wanna unpack your sexuality and your eroticism with my pleasure based curriculum and in a community context, hey, all the links in the shoutouts below will get you there and the pleasure practice page. And I just want you to know that, uh, when I run these groups, especially as an anarchist, that no one has turned away for financial inability.

This is a really important part of this for me, and I'm really excited to have that as a part of my annual offering for you as a sexuality group in February and the relationship group in the fall. So we'll talk about that more when I get there. But, and I wanna say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters, you are supporting the long-term sustainability of the show, keeping this content free and accessible to all people.

So thank you. And we have a new Patreon member, Javier. Hello. Hello. Hello. Thank you. Thank you for joining the community. It truly means so much to me each time I get a new Patreon subscriber. It's like a reminder that this work is rippling and getting into so many different consciousnesses around the world.

And so truly, I'm honored when you join the conversation. We get to have much more personal talks over in that space. And so thank you, Javier. Thank you to all of my Patreon supporters who have been along with me for the journey. I'm, I'm really grateful to be in community with you. And with that, please know that I'm sending you all my love.

And let's tune in to today's episode.

Dear Listener, there's a space already waiting for you where you are invited to let go of every old script about Sack. And relationships and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure, empowerment, and deep alignment. I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real trans. Formation possible. And I'll be right there with you, guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure and visit modern anarchy podcast.com/pleasure practice to apply.

And so the first question that I like to ask each guest is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:06:17] Kara: My name is Kara. I am 47 years old. I am queer. I identify as a cycle breaker, which is a really important facet to me. Yeah, when I was thinking about this the other day, I said something to my 12-year-old about.

Being just a suburban mom. Mm-hmm. And she stopped dead in her tracks and looked at me confounded. She's like, I know that technically that is accurate, but it makes no sense whatsoever. She, she literally, my 12-year-old was like, that is the last way I would identify. But, uh, but yeah, I just really wanted to own up to like, I'm just a guy.

[00:07:09] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:10] Kara: And, uh, and that's important, I think. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it's come up because it's important.

[00:07:17] Dr. Nicole: Yeah,

[00:07:19] Kara: absolutely.

[00:07:20] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, well it's a joy to have you in this space and I'm so excited to see where our minds go as we collaborate on the concepts of relationship anarchy. As I was saying to you before we started the recording today, these are truly my favorite conversations on this show to get into the nerdy, uh, the ways I feel seen and the inspiration that comes from each episode as we tap into, um, that another world, right?

That other world that is possible and feel into that sort of energetic space. It's, it's always so powerful. So I'm grateful to have you here today.

[00:07:54] Kara: Oh, thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I'm really excited. Near to bursting.

[00:07:59] Dr. Nicole: Hell yeah. Let's go. Let's burst. Alright, so that first big question, what is relationship anarchy?

[00:08:09] Kara: Um, what a heck of a question this is. I know, and, and I love listening to these episodes, and every time someone else is sharing how. They define relationship anarchy. I take pieces every single time. It's such a valuable question, and I think maybe for me, a moving target.

[00:08:32] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:08:32] Kara: Um, I am a little bit of a newcomer to the philosophy and foundation, um, as a formal thing that already existed.

Sure. Um, perhaps I have had facets of relationship anarchy in my life, maybe my whole life. Uh, which is one of the reasons I was so thrilled to hear about it. Wherever in the universe, the words together came to me. Yeah. Like, excuse me, what did this person just say in this four minute Instagram reel? What is that?

Right. But I have been, um, toying with thinking of relationship anarchy as an identity. A philosophy, and this is something I'm, I'm doing for myself, I'm kind of playing with it right now, and I'm thinking about an identity as an identity. Um, the same way I do with different queer identities and how I'm playing with it is because in that way, all the variables of expression are so valid and it can take the, hmm, the heat out of like those purest arguments about like, well, this isn't technically, this facet that you're talking about isn't technically an al it's Communist or A, B, C, or D or whichever part we're looking at where it's like, and when I happened upon.

The philosophy of relationship anarchy, the way it felt to me was, oh, identify with this so much. Where has this been all my life? Right. Much like I have with other facets of myself as I learned about them, and then proceeded to learn about myself as well. Yep. And so in this way, there's just a freedom and exploration that we are allowed.

And I think that might be really important. And it can be so easy to get really bogged down in the rules. Yeah. And sometimes definitions in the way those are connected. All that being said. Mm-hmm. For myself, and this is, this keeps coming up, but for myself, uh, what it makes me think of, I have a really dear friend who, uh, talks a lot about queering spaces.

Mm. And they say, you know, every time you walk into a room, just by merit of who you are, you are queering that space. And in that way, when we are. And when we are present within the dominant culture, we are inherently queering it. And so then I kind of reflect that onto relationship anarchy and think anytime we are in heteronormative spaces, in corporate spaces.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, just out in the world, these facets of ourselves are inherently anarchical and because of that, it's rebellion, it's liberation. I really feel maybe even more than believe that how we identify as relationship anarchists is like maybe some of the most important work we can be doing to queer the spaces out in the world.

Yeah.

[00:11:56] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:11:58] Kara: I don't know if that makes sense.

[00:11:59] Dr. Nicole: It does, absolutely. I really appreciate that conversation because I think sometimes people think of relationships as to people. I think culturally, a lot of people hear the word relationship and think romance first off to two A one. We can start there and then sometimes there's that space of relationship to people.

And then a lot of these conversations and my training and relational psychotherapy is talked about relationships to other systems, right? Spaces, ecosystems, animals, right? Spiritual entities. Even your gender identity, your concept of self, right? And so I think if we see that as all types of relationships, that we have different ways that we're interconnected, then it makes sense that relationship anarchy and this deconstruction of the power systems that are within our unconscious is gonna be both in the physical relationships to people and to spaces, like you're saying, a workspace.

Right? Mm-hmm. When you come in with that energy and that different perspective, that's absolutely political. It reminds me of the feminist saying that the personal is the political. Yes. And so, yes, it infiltrates into all of these areas, and I really appreciate thinking about it as a practice, something that you can find identity in, right?

As much as other practices. Mm-hmm. And also something that grows with you, as you were saying, that beginner's mindset, right? Mm-hmm. There's so much stretching in this paradigm shift psychologically, and if you think that you've dismantled all of the power structures in our existence, I say think again, my friend.

Right? And so I know that we'll get to the end of our lives still knowing that there's more to reflect on in this practice even more. And so I trust that the future generations will pick up that torch, but we'll, we'll run, we'll run during our lifetime. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm.

[00:14:00] Kara: Yeah. And it, I love even the nomenclature of relationship anarchy because I think for a long time, even before I knew about it, I have very much felt that some of the things that I was doing in my life were really important in a deconstructionist sense.

[00:14:22] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:14:22] Kara: And, um, I will talk a lot about my parenting journey with you. Mm-hmm. Sure. And it is so wildly political.

[00:14:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:14:32] Kara: Uh, our relationships with our children. Yeah. And whether or not they are authoritarian, authoritative, permissive. Even sometimes when I have been incredibly overwhelmed by the society and the time that we live in and just the, um.

The psychological burden of processing, knowing so much Yes. About so many different parts of the world. I mean as, as far as human evolution is concerned, for a really long time we would know about what, 30 people in our little clan.

[00:15:11] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:15:12] Kara: Maybe a neighboring clan or two. Yeah. And that was the entire scope of our awareness of the world of humans.

Yes. So when we struggle to process the global community, good, better or worse, it's, it is just so, it is so much information. It is so much information and like what do we do? How do we fix it all? I, yeah. I can't allow this, this, or this to go on and I can't just pick one and on and on. Right. And, and sometimes the best way for me to battle hopelessness is.

To come all the way back home and think, what do I actually have any agency over? And for me, the most powerful answer is always my relationship with my kids. Mm-hmm. We have potential as parents to stand on the shoulders of the generation that came before us and be taller and be better, and maybe release human beings out into the world who aren't spending their entire adulthood for the first 20, 30 years trying to heal from their, their parenting.

[00:16:28] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:16:28] Kara: You know, maybe this is how I can change the world.

[00:16:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:16:35] Kara: So, so again, it's being relationship anarchy. It, it allows all, um, a lot of different facets of my life and the intentionality that I've lived it with. It gives me permission Yeah. To see these things as bigger. Important.

[00:16:52] Dr. Nicole: Yes,

[00:16:53] Kara: absolutely. Inherently political.

[00:16:55] Dr. Nicole: Yes,

[00:16:56] Kara: absolutely. And I really appreciate that.

[00:16:58] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, so good. I'm so glad that we're gonna talk about parenting. This is an important topic, and I know when I first got into relationship anarchy, it had came from my work with sexual trauma survivors and getting into sex positivity, and then tapping into non-monogamy and going through that lens, and so, mm-hmm.

When I wrote my dissertation and I had research participants who talked about relationship anarchy with parenting, I was very confused. 'cause I had came from that one pathway into it. Kind of missing the whole point about it not being about sex is the highest form of relating. I was like, oh dang. Got it, got it, got it.

You know, so lessons along the way that write relationship anarchies about all of our relationships, not just sexuality. In fact, there are multiple ways to be in intimate relationships and sex is not the highest form, which is often a lot of the ex expectation in our culture. And so I'm so glad that we're gonna be talking about that.

And also, yeah, there's so many systems on a global scale, like you said, that our brain. Had never had to hold before. And so much of that is outside of our control. And as humans, we like control. And so when you feel all of that, the amount of trauma response you can go through, whether that is the fight response, the flight, the freeze, or the fun, I feel like we felt all of them in response to these systems.

And what is powerful is the direct ways that you can impact change. And so your kids, the people in your community, the places that you can really have like, touch sort of, um, impact with, whether that's volunteering or showing up. Like there are so many ways that we can find that control, uh, not the full way.

I get it. We cry about it, but, but, but, but we have to trust that we are all pulling our thread of the larger tapestry to unravel these systems. And so I'm so excited to hear how you practice relationship anarchy. How do you see the values of that translating into your parenting for you?

[00:19:02] Kara: Thank you so much for asking.

Yeah. Um, and there's, I think it touches every, every aspect of my life and I will talk about the other things as well if we end up having time for it. Um, but it, it's, it's kind of funny for me at the moment, just where I am in my life. Mm-hmm. It is really easy for me to disregard the sexual and romantic relationships because I am hanging out by myself right now.

Yeah. Um, and in some ways I'm in a restorative stage. I'm technically deescalating from a heteronormative nuclear family. Sure. But maybe worth mentioning, because I think even my separation and divorce are. Atypical. Mm. And may, and maybe, maybe worth mentioning. Yeah, let's talk about it. I, I just had a really lovely evening hanging out with my husband, my kid's dad, and, uh, and we are divorcing, um, just because the, we're both ready mutually.

We weren't in a hurry for a while. But, um, yeah, we spend time together to talk about, you know, what the kids need, who needs to be where, touch base about finances, and then we hang out because we're friends and our relationship is important. We have another divorce, a contentious divorce in our family, and it's really hard for everyone.

It is the hardest for my stepdaughter, but it, it's like a, uh, it lives in our house if you'll Yeah, absolutely. And, um, yeah, and we've known each other for a really long time. We're, we're friends in our twenties at some point. Uh, didn't see each other. I, I moved here to Colorado and we started spending time together and, uh, very quickly became romantic.

It was lovely.

[00:21:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:21:11] Kara: And, uh, and he had a two and a half year old daughter that I was really close with. Yeah. Sophia and I were friends instantly. Oh. And that was really kind of the, the fun part and maybe the most important part at the time. And Yeah. Um, yeah. And we, we ended up choosing to grow our family together.

Yeah. And I absolutely chose the right human being for it. And some 15, 16 years on, we are in the thick of it. Uh, we've raised our kids, um, unconventionally, so maybe not always the easiest way. Sure. We had started a couple businesses. We had shuttered a business. We had. Bought a project house and did a ton of construction work ourselves.

[00:21:57] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:21:57] Kara: So there's a lot going on all the time and at some point we seem to lose touch with how to be kind to each other. Mm-hmm. And um, how to see each other in the most generous light.

[00:22:11] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:11] Kara: And so we had a conversation, it literally looked like, can we call this before that resentment sticks?

[00:22:20] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:21] Kara: Can we try to salvage the other aspects of our relationship?

Yeah. Can we take the sexual nor romantic off the table and see if we can continue to partner forward with this family? Yeah. Like we intended to and we were still living in the house together and. Really thought that we had to do that financially. Um, and, and, and that was a, a solid year. And about six months ago, uh, we decided to give another thing a try.

And we've sold our house and we live in two apartments in the same, uh, property. Mm. And my kids just come and go all the time. We have family dinner all together on Thursdays. Yeah. So like, we're all in the same space and it remains normal that we're just all together and a bunch of other, you know, like the kids have, um, they don't have rooms in both of our places, but we're really close.

So they can, they can literally come and go and, and they do really cute stuff. They hang out, uh, the three of them, they hang out and have plans and, and then they'll be like, oh, I'm gonna have a sleepover. Like, it's all this really lovely little situation. And, uh, he and I were, were hanging out the other night sitting on my balcony talking and, and, and really like, I, you know, I really appreciate you being open to giving this a try because I feel like we have gotten back to this place where it is really easy to be respectful.

It is really easy to approach each other with generosity. It feels like we're on the same team. Yeah. I really love your company.

[00:23:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:23:53] Kara: I was, I don't know, either finishing cooking dinner or cleaning it up Sure. Last week at family dinner and he was just standing next to me at the counter doing something and I just thought like, this is so nice.

Yeah. And um, and, and really it's just been a matter of like always checking in with each other and. Seeing how we can structure things or restructure things or work together to like, I, I don't know, to, to make it work. Yeah. That's so oversimplified. But I actually, I think that I might've heard the words relationship anarchy for the first time when I was scouring the internet, trying to find some kind of quote unquote unconventional divorce arrangement.

Yeah. Because I just thought like, I don't want this typical parenting schedule. We hate talking to each other. Like other people have to be deescalating from a place of. Mutual respect from love. Yeah. Like it has to be. And, and so, you know, we were talking about how, you know, while we were married, we often discussed how, rather than like a lot of my previous experiences when I felt like I was in love with someone, I was just so high on 'em.

Sure. There was this huge rollercoaster ride and then the crash was epic every time and just gutted me and really brought my life to a screeching halt for months and months. And I always felt that our relationship was more sober. Like our, our love had such intention and we very kind of regularly over the last almost two decades would talk about.

How? Yeah. Like I, I've never been high on you. Mm. I, I choose you every single day I wake up and this is a choice that we make together. Yeah. And some days that looks like I hate you and I'm staying. Right. Yeah. Like, I'm so sick of your face, but I'm not gonna get in my car and leave. It's mm-hmm. It's different, you know, but, but you choose each other and you build your life together.

And what we said the other day was, I, I feel like in this, um, this way that we've separated, I think we were still choosing each other.

[00:26:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:26:10] Kara: And that seems significant to me. Mm-hmm. It's, it's new. Mm-hmm. And so I, I really like this.

[00:26:15] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:26:16] Kara: Um, feeling that I've had, but I, I think something in this, uh, experience in the way that we have deescalated our relationship, I think is very relative to relationship anarchy.

Mm-hmm. And yeah, just really think about how everyone, you know, both, both parties or every party in a relationship or in a, in any kind of a, I always say the word family. Mm-hmm. It would include poly Q and all kinds of other things. Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, it's, it's really like how do we team up and make this work for everyone at the table?

How do we take, uh, the rules we were handed and set them aside? How do we see through those? What are the alternatives? How can we build this thing together?

[00:27:05] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:06] Kara: So, um, so yeah, here I thought I wasn't gonna talk about quote unquote primary relationships at all, but I think it is. It's not nothing.

[00:27:14] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, no.

It's important to talk about and I appreciate the vulnerability to share that journey and what that process has looked like for you. It was bringing up memories of recording with Jessica Fern and David Cooley, who are also co-parents. That, um, followed more of the escalator and then separated, um, and got a divorce, but then lived together again now as co-parents and what that's mean to go through that process for them.

Cool. Yeah. That, that episode was powerful 'cause I recorded them separately and I got to hear their both of perspectives into it. And so it was kind of reminding me of that process of, of that journey, of what it means to take space and then find new ways of relating in a different frame. Right. Different context.

Yeah. Uh, but also finding the intimacy and the love there through that sort of transformation. Mm-hmm. I mean, that's huge and like you said, you were scouring the internet looking for an example of what is possible. Right. And so I think that there's so much power in you sharing your story of Yeah, we have apartments in the same complex and so they cross and they, we hang out and we have family dinners that gives someone a.

Image, right? There's a listener somewhere who's going through the same thing that you're having right now of what does this look like? Where can I go? What can I do? And when they hear your story, it provides a model of what is possible, a new vision. Right? And our fantasies, our visions are so deeply created by the society around us.

And so until we have models like you or other people, it's hard to even think of what is possible. And so I appreciate the vulnerability of sharing that. It provides a template for other people to dream of.

[00:28:54] Kara: That part of it didn't even occur to me. Yeah. That's huge. So cool. Yeah, I just, I just have chills.

[00:29:00] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, it's true. Because so much of the vision we have is, um, like you said, that other marriage in the family, the divorce that you're talking about, like mm-hmm. Hatred, aggression, all this stuff. I feel so lucky that in my community I've seen people go through divorces and we're all at the same sort of like extended chosen family dinner, and we're all there.

And I'm like, wow, okay. So this is possible. This is possible. Mm-hmm. Like, it doesn't have to end up like so much of what we see in the media or even other examples in our lives, it is possible to work through all the web of the emotions and the complexity to find new ways of loving one another. That is a powerful transformation.

One that you've walked and the wisdom that you know and can share with other people of how to do that.

[00:29:48] Kara: Mm-hmm. I mean, it's, it's still new and walking through it together every day. We don't really know what's in front of us, but we're doing it together and it's kind of a point. Yes. Um, and we, and we don't talk in absolutes, you know, like for now, like perhaps when we're old, we'll be next door neighbors.

Yeah. And we'll be harassing each other all the time. Yeah. And it'll be adorable and maybe we won't, you know, but as of right now, this is really working for me. And maybe just reflecting on relationships as a practice mm-hmm. Really brings gratitude to the forefront. And so I have just been feeling, just overflowing.

[00:30:38] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:30:40] Kara: With gratitude for my life and my people, my humans. Yeah. And um, so this is just a really cool time for me to having this conversation. Yeah. 'cause I feel like telling everybody about it 'cause it's overflowing. Yes. It's, it's just so big and beautiful and it's, it. Small and simple. Mm-hmm. But it's important too.

And I, I love those dichotomies.

[00:31:04] Dr. Nicole: Yes, absolutely. Relationships form our reality. They form our quality of life, our mental health, all of those things. And the, uh, feminist training I had done in psychology would talk about that feeling as if this resonates for you. 'cause you're the expert on your life, uh, zest.

A sense of zest for life and that energy where you're just like, yes, when I'm in good mutual relationships, you're like, yes, yes, yes. Mm-hmm. And that's become, for me, a something to really tune into, right? Is when I don't feel that connection of zest with a relationship. What is that? Is that something in myself?

Is that something with the systems? Is it something with this person? Usually it's yes to all of those things and some sort of swirl of all of it, uh, but something that I keep tuning into as a wisdom when forming community and relationships. Mm-hmm. And so I'm curious for you, why do you practice relationship anarchy?

Why is this something that's important to you?

[00:32:07] Kara: Oh, this is a question. This is a big one, but also pretty simple in the moment for me. I think when it boils down to it. What I was offered just doesn't work for me. Hell yeah. Yes. Um, and I mean, and to, to an, a lifelong extent. In fact, I, counterculture has always been a huge part of my identity, and that had to be reflected to me by, um, adults in my life when, as a teenager and things, I didn't even think about it.

And maybe because I didn't have, um, extra bandwidth to think about it, or, you know, we don't really perceive ourselves a certain way. But I mean, to the point where as an adult, I literally was questioning myself like, am I contrary just for the sake of being contrary?

[00:32:59] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:33:00] Kara: I'm not a person who likes to argue or, uh, you know, like the, like the healthy debate and Sure, sure, sure.

So not in that sense, but then I had kids. Mm. And. Not only did a lot of the things that were handed did not work for me, but I, it became really clearly defined like, oh, I'm, this is not what we are doing. Yeah. And I didn't plan on it. I didn't plan on being a radical parent. It was just one foot in front of the other and what we found.

And so I'm, I'm just saying like, I don't think our education system makes any sense. I don't think capitalism makes any sense. Yeah. I was raised not only conventionally, but by some really unhealthy people, and so that was easy for me to rebel against. I'm curious. If we'll get into this particular story of the foundation of my life that started when I was a teenager, but I, I mean, I, I moved outta my house when I was 15 years old.

Mm. It has a lot to do. Sure. Um, with a lot of other things. Um, yeah. But, uh, and even I, I, I never really believed in marriage. Mm. And. I might have been the most surprised when I decided that was something I wanna do, but it was a very pragmatic Sure, uh, proposal. Like, yes, oh, hey, if we're gonna be raising kids together and we're gonna have this house and we're gonna do all these things, like right, there's tax benefits and health insurance, and maybe it just makes sense.

Yeah. So not a ton of romance. Yeah. And, um, I don't, are you familiar with Dean Spade's, uh, work with the Myth of Romance?

[00:34:50] Dr. Nicole: Yes. They've been a guest on the show. Oh. Or one of the most played episodes. I'm sure. I have not

[00:34:56] Kara: gone back far enough. There's like now three episodes you've talked about. I absolutely have to hear.

Yeah,

[00:35:01] Dr. Nicole: yeah,

[00:35:02] Kara: yeah. Um, I, yeah, this, I'm gonna have some homework work, excited about it. I gotta invite them back though.

[00:35:06] Dr. Nicole: I, we talk about their work all the time. Yeah. So I gotta invite them because that was like episode year one of the podcast, you know, we're like four or five years in now, so

[00:35:13] Kara: Imagine. So when I first found, again, I don't even remember how the internet does its thing and gave me this little gift, and when I first started listening, it was just every single thing was like, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Just like, like there's, there's other people steal. Yes, there is. I mean, I just, I look at things sometimes. I love trash tv mm-hmm. As a little entertainment. Oh yeah. That's way to disengage my brain. And I would watched all of Bridger. Oh God. And then I get really stuck in my head thinking like, this is amazing.

This time period is when women were literally sold to men as breeding chattel. Yeah. That was the whole, the entire marriage, uh, contract was literally a buy and sell agreement. And, and the qualities were based on how, how much money can my relationship with her father make me? Yeah. How many children can she have?

Mm-hmm. Are they going to be attractive so I can sell them off? Yes. Whatever the situation is, and here we are all these years later and we are still packaging that story in quote unquote romance for one of the most popular shows and selling it back to us. So we are begging for this bullshit. Yeah. It's such a mind.

Fuck yes. It's like I, I literally like, so maybe I'm not watching it to brain rot because I can't because Totally. I just, some days I'm like, this is so bananas. We are literally begging for more of this show. Yeah. And it is, it is based on. Centuries old propaganda, and I cannot,

[00:37:08] Dr. Nicole: I know. Cannot. I know. It's absurd.

It's tough. Absurd. Yes, I agree. And that's where I've used words like Stockholm syndrome at times because Oh, right. Just to think about it, right? Mm-hmm. Because when you go back to even the nineties rom-coms that were super popular, often when I watch it with the current context of what I understand with consent culture is.

The woman is saying, no, it's all heteronormative, but the woman is saying no, and the male pushes and pushes and pushes, and we see that in that frame as wow, he's pursuing her. And so much so that he passes through her. No, like, and in now context, we're like, wow, that is not consent. This is highly problematic.

Right? And so, but at the time, that speaks to the craving we have. And so yes, I always talk about our desires as being culturally laden, right? Mm-hmm. We have to understand that the level of questioning we have to other systems of our life and how that impacts us, that has to be brought into some of our most desired things, right?

That too is impacted by all of that. So just 'cause it feels good and what we want doesn't mean it is where we should stay. And so something to definitely question, right? And it wasn't until the,

[00:38:22] Kara: and some people would, so sorry.

[00:38:24] Dr. Nicole: No, you're good. I just always wanna say that it wasn't until the 1990s that marital rape was illegal in all 50 states.

Mm-hmm. And so I will never forget that as a stat that, you know, it's been about 30, you know, years since that. Mm-hmm. And so that's always a stark reminder of where the hell we've been as a country.

[00:38:45] Kara: Right. And, and I think that makes me wanna turn that mirror on myself. Mm-hmm. And I didn't tell anyone no until I was in my thirties.

Sure. Yep. And when, when I was growing up literally saying the word no, it was unacceptable that you, you're getting spanked for that, that bad girl. Yeah. It's literally not allowed. Yeah. And your physical safety is at risk. And I was a teenager in the nineties and we certainly didn't know. Nobody knew.

About coercion being a problem.

[00:39:21] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:22] Kara: Even when consent was on the table, nobody was talking about coercion, at least in my life. Mm-hmm. And lines get blurred and sex education didn't even exist in my world. And I'm sure if we had even gotten it, it would've been deplorable. Yeah. I actually remember in ninth grade.

I think we were asking for it and our health teacher was like, oh, you're gonna get that in biology. And our biology teacher was like, oh, your health teacher's gonna do that? Just pushing it off. Literally. There was never a conversation at all. So everything we're learning we're getting from each other.

Yeah. At best. Or maybe, maybe movies or Sure. Maybe some folks were getting stuff at home. I, I don't know. And I think that's really horrifying for some people. Yes, it's fair. But, um, but yeah, and when I think about the myth of romance, I talked earlier about, um, how that love feeling was a high on this other person, and there's new relationship energy and all of those delicious hormones.

Yep. And there's also, I, I, I do think that there's some like attachment. Traumas and we find these little puzzle piece fits with another person and it's like, oh, these are, this is, you know, meeting all the needs that, you know, when I was a child, I didn't get mad. And do we have that conscious connection in real time?

I certainly did not. Yeah, yeah. I hear that. So I don't wanna minimize that. All of these things feel really, really good. And we're told, you're in love, you're in love, you're in love. And I really kind of insist on bringing myself back to like, oh, love is a verb. Is it Mr. Rogers that said that? Mm-hmm. Love is an active verb, like helping, it's something you have to do over and over again.

Yeah. I feel that for me.

[00:41:14] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:41:15] Kara: And uh, and again, it feels really sober and not that I, I don't want some of those hormones in my life. Right. Yeah. Not what I'm talking about. Mm-hmm. Um, but, uh, oh, I've gotten really off. Topic here. No,

[00:41:32] Dr. Nicole: this, so on topic, I mean, the next question is, is how does relationship,

[00:41:36] Kara: I lost the thread.

[00:41:36] Dr. Nicole: No, this is, I mean, well, okay, so this is where I get to be host and connect your dots. Right? If that feels accurate, you can always correct me. Um, but yeah. Okay. But I'm hearing the, the romance myth, like you said, right? The ways that our culture teaches us that this is what romance should feel like.

It should feel like this huge dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin, intense rollercoaster, right? That's, and again, often we see that in media, these intense fights between people because there's so much energy going on, right? That's the quote unquote highest form of romance. That means you really love. That person, right, to taking a step back and really looking at what does it mean to have more of a stable love?

And even as a therapist, I, I know this work with people who are healing in that because often you can have that stable love and we will find it boring. We'll find it, um, uncomfortable. We'll find it strange. I remember my, my colleague at my training site, he was with a client and he had said, um, at the end of a session, well, I really care about you and I'm here to support you.

And the client had said, fuck you, and walked out the room. And I was like, well, you know, and so it's like stuff like that where we were like, fascinating. Like, what's going on with attachment there that's impacting that, right? Where it seems like the safe relationship is actually so uncomfortable. And so I think whether you've had.

Capital T trauma or the trauma that we've all experienced under patriarchy and the romance myth, right? Uh, there's lots of healing for us to do and what it means to find stable, committed, uh, long-term, uh, existing relationship energy that feels nourishing. Right? Kind of maybe like some nourishing food would be rather than a sugar spike.

And so I find all this related because the next question is how does relationship anarchy impact your practice of intimacy? And so I already hear you speaking about finding more stability than the romance myth, but what are some of the other ways you see that impacting your intimacy?

[00:43:38] Kara: I think I wanna talk about three different types Yes.

Of intimacy. Beautiful. Let's do it. At least three. Yes. They're all connected, so it's really challenging to do. Yeah. But I wanna start with, uh. I just wanna make a nod to the romantic and sexual, because I think just because it's not an active part of my life in the moment. Yes.

[00:44:06] Dr. Nicole: Hi Kitty. I love kitty time.

[00:44:09] Kara: They broke the door down. So here we're Hello.

[00:44:12] Dr. Nicole: Beautiful.

[00:44:16] Kara: Um,

[00:44:16] Dr. Nicole: all the listeners are cat fans. Let's just, I'm just gonna make that, that guess right there. Yes.

[00:44:23] Kara: There's, there's another one that's gonna be something. Okay, I'm welcome. Hopefully we don't hang up. That's gonna be my, I guess that's gonna be my one, my one hope. We'll deal with the rest. Um, yeah. Yeah. I mean, and actually maybe, I think my friendships and my chosen family and also romance and sex are all very intertwined and I think I experienced this when I was younger.

I think the way it showed up in my life when I was younger. Was sometimes confusing to me. Like I didn't understand. I have learned that apparently not everybody hangs out with their friends after school and makes out with everybody. Ah. Um, which is was really fun. Yeah. Everybody else thought so too. Yeah.

Um, that makes me think too, I identify as a demisexual. Mm-hmm. I, I absolutely have to have an emotional or an intellectual. Connection with someone before I'm attracted to them.

[00:45:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:26] Kara: Which, uh, is really interesting in the sense that like, I have incredible emotional intimacy Yeah. In my life. Yeah. All over the place with Yes.

With, I think it's probably the most important thing to me. Mm-hmm. In my friendships. It's what I am after I'm diving in. Yeah. We're getting messy. Yeah. I'm gonna celebrate it. I'm gonna beg for more. I'm gonna offer myself up on a platter. Yes. Make you realize like, oh, anything goes, here we go. Like, yes.

This is what gives me life force. I am so hungry for it. I can never have enough. Well, not too much. I definitely get to a place so much. I'm so grateful, you know? Yes. So on the one hand, sometimes I'm like, well, I would think I develop inappropriate, quote unquote inappropriate feelings for people because I get this emotional intimacy with my girlfriend who is straight and married and unavailable in every way.

And somehow I've been really lucky that like, that's just not even an option. It doesn't come up in my body. It doesn't come up in my brain. Yeah. I feel really grateful for that right now, because unrequited love is something. Yes. I did a lot of Ouch for a long time. Yeah. And or, or just, you know, just like pining for people and the kink of it all.

Um, so I feel really grateful for that. Yeah. Oh, oh, okay. I need to come back and listen to this. That's a journal prompt for me.

[00:46:55] Dr. Nicole: Big time. I love that. I love that. Yeah. We're all kinky. You're so right. I know, right? Slap me again emotionally.

[00:47:02] Kara: No, thank you. Oh my God, I have so much to stand up, but I, I'm gonna try to stay focused here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and, uh, but, but nonetheless, uh, you know, I also, um, I don't think I have a single friend that I wouldn't make out there.

Sure. If the opportunity came up or if it was appropriate, and if it worked out for both of us, that can turn into sex and that seems fine. To me, that seems really, really normal. Yeah. And it also makes sense that that would happen with more than one person at a time. And I've never, I haven't practiced polyamory outside of, uh, uh, I've been, I've been living this heteronormative life for the most part.

Yeah. Um, certainly. Um, with a, a mad normativity with those. Yes. Yes. Monogamy, right? Yes. Mm-hmm. Um, so when I have had really big feelings for other people, it's bad.

[00:47:57] Dr. Nicole: Oh, no

[00:47:58] Kara: secrets. Oh no. It has broken things. I have broken people's trust and I wanna acknowledge that. Like it, that hasn't what we have agreed to.

It isn't okay for me. Right. Like, it's all about the consent and the participation of everybody involved, and that's really important, but it's allowed me to forgive myself for old things. Yeah. Being like, oh, I just, this just doesn't work for me. It just doesn't make sense to me. Yeah. How on earth could we possibly get all of our needs met by one human?

Not only all of our needs met by one human, but for the, for forever. Excuse you. Yeah. Yeah. This makes no sense. I have been questioned by a friend of mine. The person, person that I'm in a a, an emotionally intimate relationship with. Yeah. Yeah. He said to me, oh, but don't you think you're having an emotional affair with himself?

He was like literally asking me this question. These words together make me filled with rage. Yes. In the first place. It is accurately so extremely heteronormative. You are saying, I can only have an emotional relationship with this one man. And to be fair, God love him, who doesn't have that much of an emotional relationship with himself.

Sure. He can only meet me as deeply as being met. Yeah. So I'm just. Castrated emotionally. Yeah. But why? Yeah, and and because I'm not straight, that means I can't have any girlfriends either. I know. That is insane. That is complete and total isolation. Yes, it is. No, it's not safe. I absolutely not, I do not concede You don't get to give me your guilt about this.

Mm-hmm. I don't accept. Mm-hmm. No, thank you. Yep. I'm sorry you dropped something. That's for you. Yeah. It does not belong to me. Absolutely. So, and all of these things are so completely intertwined, but, but.

[00:50:09] Dr. Nicole: I see your, your Go ahead. Yeah. I see your, uh, raging fire and I wanna throw more logs on it. I'm like, yes, yes, yes.

You know, because that was the beginning of the journey for me, and I know so many other listeners too. Right. Is stepping into queerness. Hitting that space where you go, oh no, I can't have any emotionally close relationships. 'cause that's emotionally cheating because I am attracted to all gen. Oh, no. And then the house of cards starts to crumble and you start to really rethink.

Oh, that's where it started. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, it's part of that. Yeah. Because then you go, wow, what, and of course, who then, who can I connect with? And you start to realize we gotta rethink all of this. Right? That, but it's, it's such a way that people feel like they'll keep themselves safe. Right? If, if I keep all of the emotional resources here, which let's roll with that fire metaphor, right?

I'm gonna put all of it here. Cover it here, cover it here. You know what the fire needs. Oxygen. You know what I mean? So if you actually really try to hold onto it too hard, too hard, you smother it. And no matter what sort of sexual practices you're doing, 'cause do what you want folks. Every single person on this entire planet needs a full community of people.

And historically, we have never been put into such nuclear families. This is a modern concept and we have the highest rates of mental health, illness, isolation, all of the bad things that I could quote from the DSM. And it's because we're isolated and we don't have enough emotional connection. We can get into the sex stuff, I'll get there, but forget that for a second.

You're practicing monogamy. Make some friends. Make some friends.

[00:51:54] Kara: Well, and it's this like self-feeding monster. Yeah. Because we live these lives that isolate us. Isolation is a lack of connection. And it feels like we're dying. Yeah. Because we're not supposed to be doing this. We're primates. Don't chimpanzees literally groom each other 10 hours a day.

They touch each other and, and eat lice from each other, but it's because they get oxytocin. They touch each other all day long. Yeah. We're supposed to be doing this. Yeah. And we're in our little boxes with and drowning in our lives because none of us are supposed to be doing all of the things, so we're losing connection with ourselves.

I, I mean, really, literally, I, I, I feel like I know so many stories of maybe women and moms especially being like, I, I lost myself Yes. To this, this whole thing that I was doing. I forgot who I was, or I never even figured out who I was. Yeah. I feel like this is a really common thread. And then. With the dominant culture, we're told that the only way that we're allowed to feel connection is with one human in one way.

And they're supposed to meet all of our needs. And that doesn't make any sense. So then we feel lonely in relationship. Mm-hmm. And it, and it's just, it all, it all spirals, it all grows exponentially. It feeds off of itself. Yep. We're isolated. We can't get everything from one person. Mm-hmm. We're more isolated.

Our needs are less met. And I think a lot of really gross human behaviors are coming outta that because we're told that this is the only way. Mm-hmm. And there's, so, I think so much of how misogyny is acted out between human beings in this time and place is, is because we're all starving and, and there's not awareness.

There's not. Skill about how to navigate that, about how to feed ourselves for the love of God. Yeah. You know? Absolutely. And it's, it's just, I don't know, it is a, a wildly fascinating time to be alive, and sometimes when I say that, I say it is a really fucked up time to be alive. Oh yeah. Absolutely. And also I feel really grateful for a lot of facets of it as well.

[00:54:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:26] Kara: But yeah, I don't know to, to circle back, you know, we're not supposed to be in isolation and, um, oh, and, and the, the story starts, you know, with the nuclear families that born into, and maybe especially because of the way I left my parents' house mm-hmm. Chosen family has always been, yeah. Huge for me.

And this is technically, I think, anarchical in relationships.

[00:54:54] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Yes,

[00:54:55] Kara: I have probably more parents than most people. Mm. Because I was hungry for it. And there were grown people in my life, my friends,

[00:55:05] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[00:55:06] Kara: Parents who gave me something I was missing. Mm. And you know, everybody had a little something for me.

And if I felt safe in their house, I was spending a lot of time there. And Yeah. Oh, the, the abundance that ended up coming out of it is, is cannot be overstated. Mm-hmm. And then I have a younger sister, four siblings, but I, my closest in age, my younger sister's two years younger than me.

[00:55:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:35] Kara: And when I finally got on my feet, she came and lived with me.

[00:55:41] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:55:42] Kara: Uh, it was kind of like, you know, I don't, don't know that you wanna stay here and. It was really, really hard getting to this place. So they're just gonna come with me. And, uh, when I turned 18, I got custody of her. Mm. Um, and anniversary that we continue to celebrate 25 years on it is the one holiday I mark every single year, maybe even, uh, a little, um, atypical.

I, I think my story with my sister is the most romantic relationship of my lifetime, and it spans our lifetime. And we have written this story and maybe the romance started as a survival mechanism. Mm. But it has grown to have its own beautiful life that we celebrate and it is. I don't know. It, it's, it is, it is one of the most important facets of my entire life.

It's, it's huge. Yeah. Um, and then as a, as a group, uh, and we lived together and at some point, a high school friend of mine came to visit with a couple buddies, and I don't think they ever went home.

[00:56:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:58] Kara: And then they rented the apartment next door. And so we had these, like two, two bedroom apartments and they had a common balcony across the back.

And then people just came. And I don't even remember the difference between like, kids who just came to party all the time. Uh, kids who straight up moved in and those who like showed up and never really went back home. Mm. But it was this huge group of teenagers, like maybe all the misfits, maybe some folks weren't welcome at home.

Yeah. Maybe. It was just really fun to hang out and be, just be like, it wasn't like somebody's parents were outta town. Mm. And sometimes that showed up in a big party way, but a lot of times it just showed up in a way like. Just restful. Yeah. You know, there's no need to project and we spent years together mm-hmm.

Hanging out after work. It was just this huge group of us. And yeah. Even into our adulthoods, we would all do our, uh, familial obligations on Christmas and then we'd all get together. Yeah. In the evening. Like that was our big celebration. Um, yes. A friend of ours just died a couple months ago and we all went home for the funeral.

And some of us had been out of touch for a long time, decades even. You know, some of us were a little unsure, like, oh, I don't know, like,

[00:58:16] Dr. Nicole: yeah,

[00:58:16] Kara: is it gonna be okay that I'm in this crowd of people? And the way we came back together was just literally every time I saw someone's face for the first time, they lit up.

Aw. And then we would just hug and it was just so beautiful to be like, oh yeah, this is family. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes it's hard. Sometimes we have thoughts. Sometimes we've been separated, but like we have been through some stuff together. And that's important. Yes. It really, really matters. And um, so we are, uh, starting an annual family reunion and just a couple of weeks like, we're like, oh yeah, this is important to all of us still and we wanna make time for it.

Like, we've all moved and we have started families and started businesses and people get busy and all these things happen, but like, like there's just this connection and it's so important. And so I don't really know what the lines are between chosen family and building community. Sure. I think it's all a blur again, like yes.

I think definitions really blur. Yeah. For me, the more and more and more I try to. Things intellectually. It's like maybe, maybe we just let it. Glow over there. Maybe it doesn't need as many words.

[00:59:34] Dr. Nicole: Yes, absolutely. The infinite gray space of human connection. Right. The not the black and the white. Right. And mm-hmm.

I appreciate the expansive understanding of romance, as you were saying, whether that's with your chosen family or with even your sister. Right. When I think about romance, I think about it separate from sexuality and see it as the, the poetical, the soul, the intentional, right? Like you write flower, you write a card, and you show up with flowers, that's romance, and you can do that to siblings, to friends, to family members, all of that.

Even for, for Valentine's Day, my mother would always leave like chocolates and a little bear, right? When I'd wake up like cute, beautiful romance, right?

[01:00:20] Kara: I feel I. Feel like I can be really romantic in all of my friendships. Mm-hmm. And then I think, like, it's not even always that big of a deal. Just little things like, uh, I go to the grocery store and like, I'll bring a little treat home for everybody in my family and just talk about it.

I just leave on the table. Yeah. Be like, oh, she thought about me. Yeah. It's sweet. And I, I try really, it's, it's really just, is it about intentionality? That's what I see it to be. Is it about just the, I mean, 'cause it, there's so many different little tiny, silly day in, day out things that may seem insignificant, but like, I feel romantic.

Yes. I feel overflowing with love. Yeah. When I'm planning something for someone, whether it is I'm gonna get you your favorite candy, or it's your birthday and I'm gonna do this whole surprise, whatever, it's mm-hmm. Like the scale of it, it it, in my. I, yeah. Identify it as romance way it goes in my body.

[01:01:20] Dr. Nicole: Yes, absolutely.

Absolutely. It's so fun.

[01:01:23] Kara: It brings so much joy Yes. To, to do that, to think about other people in that way. Mm-hmm. And make little plans for them. Like it, I could, oh, why wouldn't we do more of this? Yes, the pleasure. This is fantastic.

[01:01:38] Dr. Nicole: Right? The pleasure of giving and loving other people. And often when there's something you're searching for, right?

When you're wanting more love and more love, we actually can find it by giving it to other people and then it comes back often in abundance. And I think I also appreciated what you had said earlier about, uh, your male partner not being able to meet you. I think one important thing as we transition to the next question is, um, you know.

Especially as someone who's like you, a verbal processor, we talked about that like deep into therapy, deep into theory, deep into all this romance, there are people who, when you bring that level of words, like I used to call, um, someone like, Hey, beautiful. They'd be like, why are you calling me that? This makes me uncomfortable.

And I'm like, that. I have a full political message to send you. This makes you a, okay. So that's also something to remember is that, um, the more you open up your own heart doesn't mean that other people will be there. And then the pain when you feel that disconnect, where they look at you and judge for how open you are.

Uh, so, and like you said, the reminders that people can only meet you as far deep as they've gone themselves. Right? And so that's an important reminder when you get that sort of, um, reception back of rejection and discomfort. It can be a part of their own inability to go there themselves, but that's one of the difficulties I've experienced.

I'm curious, what are some of the difficulties you've experienced in relationship anarchy?

[01:03:04] Kara: Well, in some ways I feel like it's hard for me to say because. On the one hand, as I've mentioned, I'm new to the theory, so there's a part of my brain that's telling me like, well, you don't even have that much experience with practicing it.

[01:03:21] Dr. Nicole: Oh, there's the difficulty right there. Right. Like imposter syndrome, right? Yep.

[01:03:27] Kara: Conversely, the other, there's another part of my brain that's saying like, well, but you've, you have always been this way. Mm. This is fundamentally who you are and, okay. Okay. Actually, so how I can, what I, what is coming up for me

[01:03:44] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:03:45] Kara: Is that I, I wanna talk about how we can have imposter syndrome, how we can second guess ourselves, how it can feel isolating sometimes to be an outlier.

[01:03:59] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:03:59] Kara: Because we. Are. Yeah. And whether, again, whether this is part of my curated relationship anarchy practice as a grown person in my, in my pcu or if, if it is just like all of my life I have felt different.

[01:04:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:04:22] Kara: This is something that I think we learn how to carry with more grace over time, but like our journey is never over. And it comes up and it comes up and we all, when it comes up again, so we can look at it from a different perspective and the spiral and it can be really challenging. And I actually feel really fortunate because most of my relationships and how they have presented.

You know, anarchical for the sake of this conversation mm-hmm. Um, I've kind of just been belligerent, like, this is who I am. Take it or leave it. Or that you don't like it, you don't have to be involved and that, that's some, and I think because some of these things have come

by way of survival.

[01:05:07] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:05:09] Kara: And for me, when it comes to survival, the part of me that's in the driver's seat is this assy, badass street kid. A teenage, like nobody messes the car. So it makes sense to me that that's kind of what I deliver with that. However, where I have really, really struggled with second guessing myself and being uncertain is in my parenting.

[01:05:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:05:37] Kara: I threatened to talk about this before. Maybe I can finally bring it back.

[01:05:41] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:05:42] Kara: I also, I, I knew a lot of things about how I did not want parent. Yes. I didn't know what to fill the space with. Mm. Yeah. Um, and so I mentioned I'm a stepparent first. Yeah. And when I first started dating my husband, uh, we took parenting classes at my request.

Oh, I love that. I mean, and, and I really, I didn't, I was kind of just like her best buddy for a while. Like the, the parenting didn't come around it, that aspect of our relationship didn't come around probably until I was like overwhelmed with an infant and just didn't even

[01:06:14] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:06:15] Kara: I didn't quite, quite have enough resources for her to be really honest.

Yes. And so that shifted. But, um, she had a lot of stuff going on in her life and she was having a lot of really big feelings and I was like, listen, I, I know exactly why she's having this experience, but I dunno how to help her. Mm. I, I need somebody to tell me what to do. Like how do I help this poor kid?

[01:06:35] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:06:36] Kara: And so we ended up, uh, taking a series of parenting classes and. It was really helpful at the time. I ended up writing up a bunch of scripts on Post-It notes. I literally put stuff on the wall for me to see all the time because I would have like this reaction and I wanted to learn how to choose a response instead.

Yes. Little kids', big feelings can be incredibly triggering. Yeah.

[01:06:57] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[01:06:58] Kara: And uh, I, I just, I, I needed help. I needed support and, um, I, I eventually, that particular philosophy, I eventually, uh, realized that I didn't agree with. It was like beautifully packaged manipulation. Hmm. It sounded really nice, but like, there are always ways to, like the way it was taught to me, there are all these ways to like trick your kid into consequences.

Oh. Which is okay. Yeah. Anyway, that aside, yes. Uh, so very early experience of like, I, I need some help. Mm-hmm. I had babysat and Ed, but those are very small windows of time. It's really easy to show up and, and. Be fantastic for a couple of hours. Yes. You know? Yes. Very different. And then, um, and then my first kiddo was born and, uh, he was a high risk pregnancy.

[01:07:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:07:53] Kara: And, uh, they put me in the hospital for weeks and weeks and then when, uh, he was premi too. And so then when he came, they sent me home and he stayed for weeks and weeks. And needless to say that, uh, that aspect of my journey started and I was really not Okay. Mm-hmm. Fall. Mm. Uh, my, my physical health was really challenging.

Yeah. Um, I was so ready for him to come home. Like we would drive every day to the hospital to visit and come home. And I'm like, I just want a chance to do it on our own. Yeah. We finally brought him home and I was like, oh, fuck, I can, I don't, I, I can't keep him safe. I can't keep him safe. And he had health issues.

It was, it was really, really challenging. Mm. And, uh, I kind of was like, I wouldn't let anyone even look at him without me in the room. Oh. There was like this intensity that it came. Anyway, I don't know that that has anything to do with the story. It's just the story. Um, but, uh, as, as he started growing and, and then, and then my youngest came along when he was a couple years old.

At first I had, um, a lot of what I now call for myself, arbitrary limits. Mm. I did not allow any. Soda in the house. Mm. No candy in the house. Mm. Um, I had a really bad relationship with junk food and I just, you know, sure. Was reading all this stuff about the best things to do for your kids, and so I wanted them to have whole healthy foods, la la, la, all the stuff.

Lots of, I, I mean, I did a ton of reading and I had Sure. I was onboarding so much information. Yeah. And it's like, oh, you have to do all of these things and you have to be perfect and blah, blah. So Oh no. While I was searching for, you know, um, additional parenting stuff, I was also bringing on like maybe even more than I already brought to the table as far as, uh, anxiety goes.

And yes, I, um, I don't own a television. I only over owned a television when I was married. Uh, I was never allowed to watch it growing up and I had a really hard time controlling myself as an adult. And so I just was like, we have to have screen time limits. And of course everybody tells you I have screen time limits.

And we were just having a really hard time Yeah. In practice with all of these limits, um, not just like toddler feelings and, and, and, and tantrums, but like hours and hours and hours long meltdowns with transitions of any kind. And I just remember literally just time to turn off the TV one night and go to bed and I was holding a kid and.

Just so dysregulated, just so, just going, I mean, like, you know, I'm trying to stay grounded in my body holding this person who is just cannot, and my, this full voice in my brain was like, well, I hope you're ready to deal with this when it's heroin, mom. Gosh. Because what you're doing is raising somebody with an addiction.

Mm-hmm. Like, you better get used to it. I like the, oh, our brains are so close. Yeah. Like, where did that come from?

[01:10:59] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:11:00] Kara: I, I remember this day because I think it was that voice rather than listen to it was a red flag for me. And I just was like, what if we tried something else? I started doing some research and I found out about this philosophy that is called unschooling, and it's for education.

When you, uh, allow it to envelop your parenting, it's called a radical unschooling because it's just the whole child that you, uh, that you treat. But, uh, it's, uh, it turns out it's pretty anarchical and I didn't even put all of this together until, um, on a Facebook group that I'm on a relationship anarchy Facebook group where I found you Yeah.

In your survey. Yeah. Um, someone several months ago posted a question was like, okay, if I wanna bring these philosophies into my parenting, like are there any existing resources? Like, does anybody have any experiences to share? What do I do? And someone came in and said, oh, see this page? And it's something about like relationship anarchy and raising young people or something like that.

And I joined the group and I clicked over the feed is. Full of people that I have been following for years and these thought leaders, ah, because I eventually found out about this idea called radical unschooling. And really what it's about is autonomy, consent, a lack of arbitrary boundaries. Like we partner on everything.

So we went from all of this control to let's just try it. Let's just be like, Hey, kids. Effectively, what they heard at probably three and five years old, what they heard is, there are new rules. You get to do whatever you want. You don't have to listen to your parents, and that's fine. But we took the screen time limits off.

And at first, especially because they still think you're gonna come take it away, they're like, well, I've gotta pack in as much of this as I can until, until they come take it away. Because they always take it away. I mean, just. 12 straight hours a day watching YouTube videos of other people playing video games or whatever it is, just this saturation.

Like, I've gotta, yeah, they're, they're gonna take away, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna take as much as I can. And that is part of the process. And that is appropriate, it's age appropriate. It it's expected so you can deal with it. Yeah. And then at some point when they realize that, when they feel trust and they realize they're not gonna take it away, they self-regulate and they're like, oh, I think I'm gonna go outside for like a week 'cause I'm really, really tired of this.

Um, and the, and same as with food. We had a candy drawer in the bottom, biggest drawer in the entire kitchen that was just full of whatever we had and free access all the time. And it got to the point where like, my kids just really don't even eat candy. And other kids would come over and be like, this is the best house in the entire world.

And kids are like, oh, great. That's from. Two Halloweens ago. Will you please finish that for us? Yeah. There's so much more involved. And it is, it is a, a long process, but uh, it's a huge transition and as a parent you are deconditioning yourself and you're having feelings about him. You're trying to break your brain of what you were handed, of the conditioning that we were given of the rules and the options we were told about.

And there's so much to process that comes up.

[01:14:22] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[01:14:23] Kara: And there's a couple of really, really cool things that happen. Yeah. And one of them for me was that at every single turn, when my kids were allowed to say no, when my kids chose to say yes, when they made their own decisions and partnered with us and asked for us to help them make things happen in their life, every time I screwed up and owned it, and we had a conversation about it every single time, things like every single one of those moments.

Healed me. Yeah, of course. It was like this unknown. I mean, we talk about healing work so often as like this job, and it's a very intentional, it sucks, it hurts. You have to dedicate time and resources to it. It's work. Right. And I have done that and sometimes continue to do that. And yet there was so much going on for me that I didn't even realize.

'cause I thought I was focused on my kids.

[01:15:31] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:15:31] Kara: And learning this new thing and partnering with them and figuring it out together. Like, what are we gonna do? What are we gonna do? And in the background, the entire time, I was reparenting myself Absolutely. In huge leaps and bounds. Yep. And so, along the way, because I, because those parts of me were.

Having their needs met, it got easier and easier, and I was triggered less and less often. Sure. And it's been a partnership every step of the way. I mean, there's been a whole world from that beginning of, of arbitrary, uh, limits and more conventional parenting that I was doing to today. I mean, it's, it's been lifetimes it seems.

Yeah. But really, I think the biggest thing to take out of it is that like our relationships now are fantastic and every step of the way. Mm-hmm. It's, it's so enriching to like, not only be on the same team as my kids, but they feel like we're on the same team too. Yeah. We're, we're partners. Not only do they have agency and these like really rich senses of self, but they know it and they have this self-awareness where like at really.

Young ages. I get this incredible feedback and gratitude from them.

[01:16:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:16:48] Kara: It's, it's wild. Mm-hmm. I mean, you think maybe when your kids are in their thirties or forties, they'll be like, oh, oh, I see what you are trying to do. Oh, I, I realize this now and I appreciate No, like in real time. It's really remarkable.

And they have an awareness that other kids don't typically get this and they have a gratitude for it. And, but I was talking about all the challenges. This, this subjects for all the challenges I, I have over these years just had a ton of fear. I've had people who love me and care about them the most have a lot of fear.

Like, how can you not be doing this structured and how can you not be this, like, this doesn't make any sense. And people are just worried about them. And

[01:17:37] Dr. Nicole: yeah,

[01:17:38] Kara: we're in a place now where. Because they have caught up. It was their time to do so. Yeah. And they're really, really cool people and most people who meet them really love talking to 'em and hanging out with them.

Like it's like, oh, we've gotten away with it. And so I forget about so many struggles along the way when we were breaking the rules at first, like cutting your path sometimes blindly having feeling really isolated. Yeah. Because it's not what everybody else is doing. Yeah. Really not necessarily having a ton of resources, people to talk to.

Totally. And I think there's a lot of overlap here. Again, like as outliers, like community is so, so vital to us as humans, as we've talked about. Mm-hmm. And you have to work harder, I think, to find community when you're living unconventionally like this, I guess. Yes, absolutely. I mean, have you found that you've gone through.

Stages of feeling isolated or has has, it seems from my perspective. Uh, that your celebrity transition into a relationship anarchy could only have been about abundance.

[01:18:54] Dr. Nicole: Ah, wow. Then I have not talked enough about how much I've cried. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. Yeah. I mean, my family's very Mormon, so that's a, you know, that's a lot to transition out of, I guess that, and, uh.

Field of clinical psychology is not always kind to the rule breakers. We can also add that in there. But I, over the years, have built community that see me and understand me and working in psychedelic assisted psychotherapy that is often a more expansive, not always, but the place that I've found more expansive way of thinking about life and things.

Mm-hmm. And so I found all of that to be absolutely transformational. And so, yes, I think that is some of the, the keys of the transformation is to find community. I, I know that to be the heart of it, um, is again, how much relationships form our sense of self, our reality, and our mental health. And so when you don't have community that sees you, you feel wrong, you feel isolated.

When you find that community who does, you feel at home and then you have more strength to withstand the rest of the world where you are often more of a minority. Right. And that's a really important thing to hold onto and I appreciate, you know. Thinking about the difficulties and the joys of relationship anarchy, the ways that you talked about how deep, again, these systems are within our unconscious, it's coming through the ways that you feel like you need a parent, the ways you need to show up.

And so that's, so there again, hitting on the, uh, idea that it is a practice and something that we get better at with time, right? It has to take all that unlearning and small steps, small steps and you know, with your kids, for them to learn their own regulation and not just seek, um, intense levels of the things that are forbidden.

I, I mean. Yes. That is the heart of human nature. Uh, desire is created by an obstacle, right? Something that gets in the way. Mm-hmm. And my, my ideal world is that our desires for connection are created through the quote unquote obstacle of individuation. Right. Um, the separateness of each person. Oh. Rather than the forbidden, wrong and naughty.

Right. That's my preference. Um, but if you wanna play with that too, like go for it. Of course. But I think often a lot of desire comes into power dynamics that are unhealthy because of the obstacle, et cetera. You know, boss state's, employee, et cetera. Um, but, uh, all of that aside, as you were talking about your, your kids and them learning to self-regulate and even not go 12 hours on the screen, I was just thinking about the sex world and how often we've put these boundaries around relationships of you can't kiss this other person.

You can't do that. You can't have sex with any of your other people. The second you get out of that. Oh my God. You run, you run an NRE so hard 12 hours straight screen chime. Mm-hmm. Of just pure pussy popping magic. And then you get out and you're like, whoa, okay. I actually need to find some balance here.

Hold on. Right. And so I think that's a very common journey because all of us, we haven't learned how to self-regulate our attraction in the same way kids to like other dopamine sources. Right. With TV or candy. We're all children. Yeah. That's real here. Uh, and so the joys being like when you're able to see your kids, you know, really learn those skills as we learn those skills as adults, as we help other people in our community with like, Hey, seems like you're going down NRE just checking in with you and you're drugged out state, how are you friend?

You know, like, we come together in that healing process as a collective. And so I see those joys and those difficulties tied together and it. It's making me wanna ask, you know, and check in with that final question too, of what do you wish other people knew about relationship anarchy? What do you think that thing is?

That if you were to say, yeah, you already got it, go for it.

[01:22:44] Kara: I do, I do. And I, this is one that I like, wrote down for myself. Mm-hmm. And, but it's tying in really nicely to being an outlier.

[01:22:56] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:22:56] Kara: And, um, and the challenges that can come with it. When I wish more people knew, just in general, it's like, it's okay to consider breaking the rules.

Oh, yes it is. Okay. If you are listening to a relationship anarchy podcast and still inside of some normative space, but like, you're here because you're curious like. I wanna say like you owe it to yourself to consider what it could look like. And I think if someone was here, they would be considering, but I don't wanna should on anyone.

[01:23:37] Dr. Nicole: Of course. Yes.

[01:23:38] Kara: But I feel for myself, like if I have sometimes even a passing thought, like I owe it to myself to get curious about that and be like, what is that and mm-hmm. What would it look like? How could it be different? Oh, we're not supposed to do this. We're not supposed to do this. But like, yeah, how bad could it be?

Mm-hmm. Should I try it? Could I try it? What would happen if, because I think sometimes like taking that first step, choosing ourselves. Yeah. Sometimes is, seems impossible, right? Mm-hmm. Especially if we are mired in the dominant culture in Yes. Any of a number of ways. And so it's gonna be like, it's okay to break the rules.

You can check it out. Yes, you can try it, you can decide it's not for you. Yes. And I, and I thought that this was the thing I wanted to talk about. And then I, last night I came upon this quote. Mm. And it says, sovereignty begins where obedience ends. Mm. Yeah. And that's my whole point. Yes. Sovereignty begins where obedience ends.

Mm-hmm. Most of us were raised very, very conventionally within the dominant culture, if not under abusive parentage or in really extreme religious context. On and on. Like obedience and control was the entire premise of the first 15 years of my life. And when I have chosen myself and set down that need to be a good girl, to follow the rules, to be obedient, all I keep finding is that I'm sitting more and more in my own sovereignty.

Yeah. I have technically been relationship anarchy, identifying my whole life. Mm-hmm. However, the more attention I give it, the more intention I give it, the more I sit in my sovereignty and self liberation is the seed of all liberation and I am saying like, this is the work we are meant to be doing. It's a big deal.

Break the fucking rules. Give it a shot. Yes. Consider it. Consider yourself like join us. Even if it's a little tiny way. Yes. Even if it's for one little moment, like this is a really big deal. Yeah, it is. Absolutely. I owe it to myself. Uhhuh. Absolutely. We deserve it. That would be another way to put it. Yeah.

We deserve it. Consider it.

[01:26:14] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Civil disobedience is a necessity to get to the revolution that we want, right? Yes. I think about all of the rules that need to be broken. So many of them, I think about the fact that not too long ago. You know, women weren't allowed to get a doctorate. I would, you know what, where would I, God forbid, she can't do it.

She can't do it. Women can't get educated. Who's gonna have the babies? You know? And then also the, even talking about contraception being that being illegal. I talk about sex contraception, all of the things I ha I'm queer. That was illegal. That was inside the DSM of all things, which now I'm in a profession that uses, and I have lots of thoughts about that, but that's another podcast.

But that was in there as something to diagnose and quite literally be put into an asylum for healing in that, oh my God, let alone my interracial relationships I have, which would be forbidden, let alone the drugs of psychedelics that I use for healing that are still actively forbidden in lots of context.

Ketamine is legal, but the rest of 'em, people in jail, I mean, there's so, oh, we, we could just unload, you know, that whole. Yes. Absolutely.

[01:27:28] Kara: And it all starts with like, oh, you are meant to sit still and be quiet.

[01:27:32] Dr. Nicole: Yes, exactly. Cross your legs,

[01:27:35] Kara: you, yeah. No, there's pictures of me, like a little girl. My ankles have crossed my hands in my lap.

[01:27:41] Dr. Nicole: Well, because women were killed.

[01:27:43] Kara: Women were killed. Don't worry, little girl. Like, you're gonna be all right. Like, you're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna be too big and too much no matter what it's gonna be okay. Right. And in the best way. And the most delicious. Way.

[01:27:59] Dr. Nicole: Totally. I know, and I'm always scared to talk about epigenetics and I've talked about the 'cause.

It doesn't, I don't want to like create features where we feel like this is the inevitable, but it is important that with mice, they've done research where they would classically condition the first generation to be afraid of cherry blossoms. And I remember it was, I think. Up to three to four generations later, without the social condition, the without the classical condition of the fear of the cherry blossom, they still had that fear.

Right? And so if we think back to our previous generations, purely, uh, I mean, there's so many identities that we could identify that were crucified and so many different things. Um, the reality is that the space we're in right now is not by accidents. It's years of genocide from patriarchal, white, dominant cultures.

Uh, and so when we go back to those previous generations, our parts of our lineage, especially women, were killed. To do anything outside of the norm. And so when we think about epigenetics and how that sits in our body, I don't wanna say that in a predetermined way, where we're stuck in those cognitive loops, but we do have to think about how fact, how deep that can go both within our bodies and our psyches.

And so I think it is an important thing to like, yes, honor how far we've come and also continue to have that. Critical lens and step outside of that box. Push the boundaries, break the rules, and have compassion for yourself. Because if I've learned anything, the second I cross that boundary, I'm like, hell yeah, I'm such a badass.

And then a few hours later I'm like, oh no, I did something bad. I did something real bad. You know? And so we talk about that as the rebound effect with psychedelics too. Mm-hmm. When you go into those more expansive states and then you come back and so have compassion for yourself folks as you do this work, because it's like any other stretching practice, you're gonna stretch a little and then come back, stretch a little bit more and come back.

And over the time you realize you can touch your toes in ways you could have never, um, before, and now are just ease and you just keep stretching and stretching and stretching. And so

[01:29:55] Kara: I love that you bring up epigenetics though, because for me what it ties it back to is that cycle breaking Yes. That I talked about.

Um, we carry genetic markers, but also history, and it can be directly from our parents, but also from our culture.

[01:30:15] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[01:30:15] Kara: And so it's all completely connected.

[01:30:19] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[01:30:19] Kara: Right. Like love, absolutely love that feeling. And, and it's, I mean, we're supposed to be finding berries and sitting around telling stories, so it's not always important to me that I figure out what my life is about or why I'm here.

Yeah. But this is a, a really driving force. So I claim it as part of my identity being a psycho bigger. Yes. And um, yeah. And sometimes I think like, oh, this was inevitable, like this

[01:30:47] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:30:47] Kara: Whole beautiful cycle. And as I continued to explore, I'm only 46 years old. Like, there's so much more time Yes. To play and expand and challenge myself and be curious and yeah, it's gonna be really fun.

I. I'm excited.

[01:31:03] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Hell yes. Ugh. Well, it was such a joy to have you on the podcast today and get to hold space for your journey and your wisdom so, so much here. And as we're coming towards the end of our time, I wanna take a deep breath with you

and then check in and see if there's anything else you wanna say to the listeners. Otherwise, I have a closing question for you. Hmm.

[01:31:32] Kara: I think I just wanna take a moment and say thank you. Yeah. Before we go, um, this has been a really incredible experience for me. Yeah. Very exploratory. I'm looking forward to listening back on it because I feel like I don't even really know what I've said.

I hear you. I hear you. Um, and so that, that listening back is gonna be another. Expansion for me, and it's just so juicy and it's such a gift, and I just accept this gift with such gratitude. Thank you. This has been really, really, really cool.

[01:32:09] Dr. Nicole: It's such a joy, such a joy to connect with relationship anarchists around the world.

And like I had shared with you, I grow so much too in this space. And so it's such a mutual experience of joy and pleasure to come together and create something that we know, you know, so many people around the world will be tuning into and listening. Ah, like so exciting to know that, to know that your, your wisdom impacts other people and continues the conversation of future people who will come on.

I love that collaborative, decentralized approach to exploring these ideas. And so I'm so grateful that you were able to do this today, and thank you so much for trusting me to hold this space for you.

[01:32:47] Kara: Yeah. Thank you. It's been beautiful.

[01:32:50] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Alright, so that closing question that I ask everyone on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:33:01] Kara: I, oh, I think I'm just going back to like, listen to that voice.

[01:33:12] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:33:13] Kara: The, the questions you have are, you know, even when we've, when we have those moments, like when we're alone and, and, and it's like, oh, this is so hard. This have to be so hard and, and growing doesn't always feel good. That's not the point at all.

But it is really normal living in this society to be like, there's gotta be something else. There's gotta be a better way.

[01:33:37] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:33:38] Kara: And so like, listen to that voice and get, get curious. I really, it it is, it's so normal. It's like not. Our fault that this all feels really, really crazy sometimes. Yes. It's so valid.

Yes. Um, it's kind of saying the same thing I just did, but it's really what's coming up for me.

[01:33:58] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely right. There's that quote, it's no sign of health to be well adjusted to a six society. Oh gosh. Yeah. Right. And so when you have that frustration and that pain and that anger and that rage, which is often a tough emotion for fem folks to tap into, important.

Right. Uh, that's. Valid and make sense. We should be raging and screaming. And the fact that our society isn't, makes it even the worse because then you feel such a disconnect to what's going on in the world and the fact that things just keep moving on like normal quote unquote. Right? Yeah. And so, yeah.

Ugh, tap into that rage, tap into that inner voice that says, absolutely not. There is another world that is possible. And when you feel lit up about that world, follow that. Mm-hmm. Keep following that pleasure and that zest for life. Exactly. It'll take you places that you never predicted and you'll feel so much better for it.

I, I've been following that voice and it sounds like you've been following that voice, and so many of the listeners are, and the people that have come on this show, and, and you feel it. It's a, it's a certain energy that you definitely experience and I'm so grateful that you were able to bring all of that wisdom today onto the show.

And so. Ah, yeah. Thank you for joining me in this. Thank you for co-creating this. Yeah.

[01:35:17] Kara: I really love the experience. Yes. I won't forget this. Yeah.

[01:35:22] Dr. Nicole: Uh, for all the people that wanna connect with you and reach out, where can they connect with you?

[01:35:29] Kara: Um, I would love to be in touch with some more community members.

Yeah. Um, I don't have anything formal to offer, but uh, you can find me on Instagram. My username is yesterday's mascara. Cute. Um, but I think, uh, my full name will be. In the show notes at least. Mm-hmm. If you look that up, there aren't too many Kara Semanski, I don't imagine.

[01:35:53] Dr. Nicole: Yes, absolutely. Yes. So all that will be linked in the show notes below.

So dear listener, you can go find Kara, and again, Kara, thank you. Thank you so much for making this together with me today. For all of the listeners,

if you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast, and head on over to modern anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I wanna thank you for tuning in, and I will see you all next week.