243. Owning Your Consent and Sexual Agency with Kitty Stryker

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Kitty join us for a conversation all about dismantling rape culture. Together we talk about the sexiness of nuance, getting an A plus in sex, and the need for transformative justice. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world.

Tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, author of the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and founder of the Pleasure Practice supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships.

Dear listener. Ugh. I feel so lucky to be bringing these episodes to you with people like Kitty who can get so deep into the conversations that we need to be having about consent. I know it's hard. I know we all want that very simple black and white answer of who is good and who is bad, and the reality is that there's so much nuance to this conversation.

I kept feeling like this is the moment where, you know, the magician pulls out the scarf and it just keeps going, going, going, going, going. That's a lot of what I felt like this conversation was. We're like pulling one thread and then there's another thread, and then there's another thread, right, which is so reflective of the human experience.

Nothing is ever black and white. There's a million ways that you can look at one situation and then all the narratives. That we can tell ourselves about that situation. And so one of the biggest things when it comes to consent and sexual agency, right, is growing and expanding in community, honoring all the ways that we are growing and having to mess up in the human experience.

And the ways that we can hold one another accountable for that transformation. Huge. And these are the conversations I'll be having in this space with you for many years to come, dear listener. And I truly feel so, so grateful that I get to bring you these powerful episodes with experts and leaders in the field.

And truly, truly, it is such an honor.

Ah. All right, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and free resources@modernanarchypodcast.com. Linked in the show notes below. Dear Listener, that's also where you can learn more about my upcoming Pleasure Liberation Sexuality Group starting the first week of February.

Again, this is only six spots. This is a deep, intimate container that I do. Once a year every year, and we get into conversations and neuroscience backed curriculum in ways that helps us to truly expand our erotic empowerment, our erotic intelligence, and bringing more pleasure into our lives. And so, dear listener, if you wanna learn more about that, you can go into the show notes below.

Head on over to the work with Dr. Nicole tab on Modern Anarchy, and I look forward to seeing your application soon and seeing you in February. And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters. You are supporting the long-term sustainability of the podcast. Keeping this content free and accessible to all people.

So thank you. And with that, please know that I'm sending you all my love. And let's tune in to today's episode.

Dear Listener, there's a space already waiting for you where you are invited to let go of every old script about Sack. And relationships and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure, empowerment, and deep alignment. I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real trans. Formation possible. And I'll be right there with you. Guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure and visit modern anarchy podcast.com/pleasure practice to apply.

And so the first question that I like to ask each guest is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:05:44] Kitty: Well, I am Kitty Stryker. She her, I am a writer. I am an activist. I am an anarchist. I'm a cat mom. Yeah. And I'm an avid Dungeons the Dragons player.

[00:06:02] Dr. Nicole: Ooh, so fun. Love to hear that. Well, it's a joy.

[00:06:05] Kitty: The only place I could tolerate rules.

[00:06:07] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:06:07] Kitty: Ooh,

[00:06:08] Dr. Nicole: I love that. Yes. Well, it's a joy to have you on the podcast today. Thank you for joining me and all the listeners.

[00:06:15] Kitty: Yeah. Thank you for having me. Yeah.

[00:06:17] Dr. Nicole: One of the key pieces of the show is holding space for everyone's personal journey. I feel like that provides so much context to the education and your wisdom and your lineage.

And so I'd love to hear how did you get into this space of becoming an educator on consent and all of these topics?

[00:06:38] Kitty: Well, that started in my early twenties. I was having a conversation with a friend of mine who. Also elected, also a sex worker. And we were talking about our experiences in the kink community in the San Francisco Bay area.

And as we were talking, we began to realize that we had had so many experiences of our boundaries being pushed or our consent being violated, that we were expected to chalk up to part of the learning experience. That this was just part of being somebody who did submissive things or bottomed in these communities, and it couldn't be helped.

It was just part of, part of that experience. Yeah. And we asked ourselves, why? Why is that? Why is that so, not only why is that true or assumed to be true, but why is that? An expectation. And what if it wasn't like that? What would that mean? What would that look like? We were both really interested in philosophy and psychology, and so we began to look at the framework of these spaces.

There's particularly kink spaces, but mm-hmm. Polyamorous spaces as well, sex parties, burning Man. Sure. All of these alternative communities. And we began to notice that consistently, generally, white, cisgender, straight men tended to be the ones with the most resources and therefore had the most power, and that was unquestioned really?

That was just part of the landscape. Again, we were like, well, that's interesting because these are alternative spaces. Right? So then why are we just falling into the same tendencies? Yeah. As the world at large. Why is it that when abuse happens within these communities, so often we're expected to handle it internally, but we don't have a framework or any standard of behavior of how to handle it internally.

There's a lot of conversation about like avoiding rape culture and avoiding abuse, but there's not really a lot of conversation about how that, like how to do that and what that looks like. So we started to figure out like first of all, what the extent of the issue was. Mm-hmm. And then my friend burned out on it very quickly.

'cause this is emotionally extremely intense. Yeah. And I continued on to keep working on it, keep talking about it, blogging about it, writing about it, turning it over in my own head. Yeah. And um, yeah, and challenging a lot of these sort of inherent beliefs that seemed to be part and parcel with these, with these spaces.

Yeah. So I guess that's how I started it then got very frustrating because yeah, consent culture as a term kind of got taken away from the alternative communities in which it was being discussed on these power dynamic levels on this. Well how are things in the mainstream and how is this challenging it?

How are we replicating the prison industrial complex? Right. And how we handle Yeah. Things like, um, victims and perpetrators. Yeah. Yeah. And it went to universities where a lot of that got taken out and it was just about enthusiastic yeses in college sex. Yeah. Between heterosexuals. Mm-hmm. Which was not the framework we started with at all, but I'm, I guess I'm glad that people were talking about it there.

Uh, some

[00:11:03] Dr. Nicole: progress. Yeah. I hear you. I hear you. Uh, well, okay. Powerful beginnings. Right. I'm curious as you're saying that, you know, people are always on different ends of that. Or people are always in different places of that learning journey. Not to say there's even a final destination, but when you look back on that, are there any glaring lessons that you wish you could tell your younger self that stick out that might resonate with a listener, depending on where they're at?

[00:11:34] Kitty: Oh boy. Yeah. I know. If I could talk to my younger self, I think some things I wish I could have told myself though I don't know that I would've been in a space to hear it, which I think is important. Isn't that the truth? Yeah. I think as I was reacting to these, this anger really of having experienced abuse in these communities and had such a pushback from the community, I was ostracized from the community for quite some time for talking about these issues.

Even though those communities turned around years later, it had. Okay. You were right. Damn. Yeah. These frameworks are important and we don't want to call cops into our spaces, but that does mean we need to handle these things in a transparent and consistent way, and we don't know how to do that. Sorry.

Yeah. At that point, I was already like, you know what? Fuck all this. I don't even wanna be in this community anymore. Mm-hmm. Like I have other things to do. I wish I could have told my younger self that being quiet for the sake of being liked is generally not worthwhile. I wish I could have told my younger self that it is possible to love being a sex worker and to be a sexual.

Mm-hmm. I put myself through a lot of stress by thinking that because I enjoyed sex work so much. But didn't really enjoy or seek out, I should say, sex in my personal life, that there was something wrong with me or something wrong with my partner. And it just turned out it wasn't a priority for me off the clock.

I liked sexual performance. I didn't really care about it. I'm, I'm not sex averse. I just sort of am sex apathetic. Sure. And I wish I could have told my younger self that because God, that would've saved me so much time and energy. Oh yeah. Um, because I really enjoyed being a sex worker. And when you're, especially during that time, if you were a sex worker, you had to either love sex and you were in it 'cause you loved sex so much or you hated sex and you were doing it for financial coercion.

Sure. And I was a weird person in the middle where I was like, I'm definitely doing it for the money. But I also kind of enjoy the performance aspect of it. The fact that it's sex is kind of irrelevant to me. Mm-hmm. I think especially because I was raised pagan. Mm-hmm. And so I wasn't raised with the purity culture, shame culture that is so per like permeates.

Yes. A lot of our society, I didn't grow up with that at all. So I thought, oh well if sex work is not abhorrent to me, it must be because I love sex. Why am I not loving it in my personal life? Ah, yeah. Is it me? Is it them? Sure. Is it that I am not dating the right people And uh, yeah. I wish I could have told my younger self.

Yeah, you just, you, it's not a priority for you in your personal life. You love doing it for money and you don't really care about it outside of that, and that's okay. Mm-hmm. Uh, that would've really helped me out.

[00:15:03] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I can imagine all of the, probably so much time spent in spirals, right? What's this? Why that?

What's this? Why that?

[00:15:10] Kitty: And punishing myself. And punishing my partners. Really? 'cause I, I felt like if I wasn't having sex that was enjoyable. It must be that I wasn't working at it hard enough. Mm. I think that there is an area of sex positivity that sort of blends into the Protestant work ethic. Sure.

Where sex becomes another thing that you have to practice and embody and take classes and do research, and it's. Can become kind of a chore. Mm-hmm. It becomes less about just inherent pleasure and more about being great at this thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. In a way that is weirdly competitive and kind of, I don't know, contrary to relaxing and enjoying your body.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like getting the a plus and sex, you know? Yeah. And like it's, it's kind of funny because I think where my thoughts on a lot of these things started to shift was when I started reading, there was one blogger named, I wanna say Lisa Milbank, who was a trans woman who was also a radical feminist.

So was a trans positive, radical feminist. Which was already kind of a contradiction of terms, especially since I think she's based in the uk, but also was not as inherently anti-sex work as a lot of radical feminists can be. Her understanding of consent and those dynamics was much more nuanced than the ones I had seen out in the world, which was very much at that time.

Yes means yes, no means, no vocal, everything if you have to know yourself well enough to know the answer all the time. So when I started doing consent work, I was very much like, kill your local rapist. Mm. Yeah. Like these people know that they are doing wrong and they should be punished, and why aren't we punishing them?

And I still think that's true sometimes. Sometimes I think there are people who are just absolute manipulative jack offs. I also think that's the minority. I think that there are a lot of people who are very entitled. I think there are a lot of people who have been taught by a capitalist society to keep pushing until they get a yes, which they're taught to do when it comes to the workplace, for example.

So like it's harder for me to be angry with them when I can see now that our world gives people that messaging, especially in the United States, in all these other aspects of our life. Of course, it's going to seep into sexuality. Yep. Mm-hmm. So that complicated things. Re reading Lisa Millbank was like, oh, maybe a lot of the attitude that I'm seeing in the San Francisco Bay Area that's.

Marketed as sex positivity is actually a weird morphing of that into sexist compulsory, which is sort of when sex positivity gets I to use judgmental language. Tainted, sure. By capitalism, by patriarchy, by white supremacy to say, I want this and therefore you should want it because I want it. And if you don't, then you're not being sex positive.

It's because of shame when it's not necessarily that. Mm-hmm. So like that just rethinking sex positivity and saying, oh, maybe there are ways in which this term is being misused for manipulative purposes. Mm-hmm. Maybe that's what I'm reacting to. Mm-hmm. That was a huge revelation in my consent culture work.

Similarly, she has the same issue with, uh, sex negativity, where there is this sort of radical feminist sex negativity, and then there's sex as moralism. Mm-hmm. Which you get from, again, patriarchy, uh, Christo fascism. Those influences end up warping sex negativity, or sex neutralism into desire is immoral.

Mm. Mm-hmm. But that's not inherent in sex. Negativity any more than sex being compulsory is inherent to sex positivity. And that was just like, whoa. That exploded my brain in a bunch of delightful ways and caused me to look at the whole issue in. A much more complicated way, which also broke my brain for sure for a few years.

But I feel like now my attitude around consent and morality and I don't know the influences of our society is, is much more subtle and more compassionate and more. Guiding rather than scolding, I guess.

[00:21:00] Dr. Nicole: Sure, yeah. Which is powerful, right? I mean, people respond better to, uh, curiosity often, and like you're saying, guiding, helping people in that sense, um, rather than getting the defenses.

I think about that as a therapist. Like, how can I, rather than coming out in like naming something directly, how can I ask a question that gets the person to see that through, through their own process, right? Very much so. Yeah. And so the power of that 'cause, because our egos are always so defensive, right.

Uh, and definitely and I just think about yeah, the, the. Systems that we all come from, right? And that delicate balance between pointing the arrow upwards towards the system that produces the behavior, the ways that we relate, as well as accountability and what does that mean with restorative justice?

Those are questions that I certainly do not have the answer to, but are certainly things that we explore in this space, right, of accountability. And so I, I think about, you know, this is where I like conversations about the erotic, right? How do we even define sex in the first place? Can we maybe break down that box, right?

And then beyond that, getting to a space of focusing on embodiment of pleasure, regardless of what that looks like. I really appreciate that conversation. Um, rather than sex needing to be any sort of specific act with some sort of escalator, linear type play of what that's supposed to look like. How can we work on embodying more pleasure in whatever way speaks to you and your body and what that means?

I find a lot of revolution in that vision.

[00:22:31] Kitty: Yeah, for sure. I mean, also just embodying curious, like I, I'm sure I'm not alone in this, but like, I don't know, once I've hit my forties, I suddenly had to be in my body in ways that when I was in my twenties and thirties, I could be much more apathetic about it.

Yeah. Like now I have to go to bed at midnight, my body demands it. Mm-hmm. I hold my back because I probably turned over in bed. Yeah. And like wrenched something. Mm-hmm. I have to pay attention to my body and what it needs on a level that isn't encouraged.

[00:23:16] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:16] Kitty: It's not even necessarily about pleasure, but just like existing in a meat sack Yeah.

In the world and saying, okay, rather than taking pain pills and pushing through. Rather than taking cold medicine and pushing through, I'm going to try to build a life where I can take a step back and say, okay, I need to rest. Mm-hmm. Let me rest before I'm forced to.

[00:23:45] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Right. Which is part of the importance of the, like disability movement and speaking to that too, as someone with rheumatory Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. Someone with rheumatoid arthritis, like, I've had such a relationship with my body since I was a child with chronic pain in that way, that it's, it's a forced reality. And so mm-hmm. So many advocates that have come onto the podcast before, I've talked about how we will all face that at some point in our life, whether you're disabled or differently abled at this point, there will be a point in your life where that will become a reality as we age.

Right. That's Aly inability of the human existence. And so, um, even just in these current timeframes, like how are you supposed to be in your body with everything going on?

[00:24:27] Kitty: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and what, I mean, I think it's, it's an interesting, because I know a lot of people who are afraid of aging because they are afraid of that.

They are afraid of the pain. They are afraid of the loss of mobility or the loss of mental faculties. And I understand that though, as somebody who has had mobility issues for most of my adult life. There's also a part of me that rolls my eyes as Sure, yeah. Welcome to my life. Yes, yes. But I also think, wow, what a luxury that we get to grow old enough.

Mm-hmm. Where that becomes an issue that we're forced to deal with. Yeah. Because we're not dying in factories. Mm-hmm. Thanks to eight hour work days, you know? Right. Exactly. Exactly. It used to be so much worse. Uh, it used to be so much worse when we didn't know what. Penicillin. What? Sure. I'm a massive medical history nerd, and so whenever I feel frustrated at the world, I just remember that 150 years ago, we still weren't entirely sure that germs existed.

Yeah, exactly. And I remind myself a long way, baby. Like Yeah, absolutely. So there is a part of me that's like, wow, you know, you could just, you can reframe some of these things as, wow, I get to grow old. Yeah. I get to learn how to, to take my time. I get to learn how to engage with the world in a different way.

Mm-hmm. Because I haven't died. Of some communicable and preventable disease. Right. Good for me. Like Exactly, exactly. This is great. So you know that not to be like a Pollyanna, because I'm definitely not. I'm totally cynical. I just think that it, it does remind me to be grateful that I get to. Experience the world in these different ways.

Absolute. When not everyone does. Right. Right. And that that's important.

[00:26:39] Dr. Nicole: Yes. And I hear that as holding the Yes. And, and then choosing which frame feels the most helpful for you. It's a yes. And of this hurts. And also, wow, how lucky am I? And then at the end of the day, which lens do I wanna look through?

It's not ignoring the reality, but I. Feel better when my frame is through the gratitude lens and I'm building more neuronal pathways there. Right. And so that's, I too try to do that as much as possible. 'cause what it was Margaret Sanger being arrested a hundred years ago for talking about contraception and public papers.

And so you and I could have this conversation right now and not be arrested, which is such a great joy. Right. There's also horrible things going on in the world Absolutely. Of reproductive justice. And so it's that deep. Yes. And at the same time. And so I like to dream of that other future, even the getting to the five day work week.

Right. People died, the hay market riots for that. And so I'm like, yeah, let's, let's not stop folks. We're not done. Let's keep going. Right. Absolutely.

[00:27:36] Kitty: Absolutely. And like, you know, I mean, even thinking about Marco Sanger like, great, when it came to reproductive justice, terrible when it came to eugenics.

Mm-hmm. You know? Exactly. Now we're having the conversation about eugenics on a much wider scale again, and it's. Yeah, that you've gotta be able to hold nuance. Mm-hmm. And I guess that's ultimately what I've learned so much from my consent work. Sure. Is nuance is key. Yeah. Nuance is vital. And we do not encourage that in our media.

We do not encourage that in our politics. We do not encourage that in our schools probably because holding nuance means critical thinking. Mm-hmm. And that is not something that an authoritarian mindset really wants to encourage people to do.

[00:28:25] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So getting into some of that nuance with your wisdom and expertise on consent culture, you know.

I'd be curious, your thoughts on my education, of course, from purity culture was, woo. We can, we can step forward a little bit further from that. When I was, at least in college, I was in, um, trainings in frat and sorority life that would say, uh, they did the tea video. I'm sure you're familiar with that.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so there was this big discussion about how any sort of drug use while having sex was not consent. And it was this very hard line that I feel like is not a reality even in, uh, gay queer culture. Drug use is so common. And I remember having my conversation with Brita Love and made the joke at the beginning of that episode that I was on an SSRI for many years and was having sex on that.

Like, what does that mean? That's a true mind-altering substance. You know, I'm drinking coffee right now. Right. Thank you. Yes. Yes. Yeah. It's a, my framework with psychedelic therapy definitely starts to come into this conversation. I, I'm curious, what are some of the nuances to consent like that, that you feel like we don't really talk about as a society?

[00:29:40] Kitty: I think that a lot of the conversations about consent that we have as a society are focused on legality Mm. What is going to pass or not pass in a court of law as the ultimate arbitrator of morality. Yeah. Which there are a lot of fucked up laws. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe because I've always been an aab anarchist, thanks to my mom.

Mm-hmm. Lucky, uh, I, I just never had that as part of my. Framework growing up. I mean, I was going to take back the night rallies with my parents when I was a wee child. Wow. I had a little pin that said I'm a mini feminist. Wow. I would go out and protect abortion clinics from, uh, anti-abortion protestors with my dad.

Yeah. Uh, my grandmother used to tell me a story. Apparently I walked up to one kid who had a sign that said, uh, here by chance, not by choice. And I just said, probably not Thinking about how much of an asshole I was being, oh, you weren't a choice. I was choice. Which is so mean when I was like, I don't know, six.

So I don't think I was aware of how catty I was being. Sure. So, yeah. All that to say, I think that there has been a lot of education that's been focusing on. How do you protect yourself in a court of law, rather than what is something that you can do in your day-to-day life that normalizes these behaviors?

Mm. Like paying attention to other people. Mm. And I don't know, maybe again, because I have never really cared that much about the court of law, I have not had that as a core part of my framework. Yeah, that makes sense. It's good to be aware of legalities when it comes to things. For example, like naming your rapist in public.

That is something that can have consequences, even if you are absolutely right to do so, you could get sued. Yeah. And the government may well support you being sued. So that is something that you have to keep in mind. A perfect example of. The legal system not being your ally. Right, when it comes to moral frameworks.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I have paid a lot more attention to things like body language, like being able to understand, is this person more of an ask culture person or a guest culture person? Do they tend to ask upfront for the things that they want or need, or do they tend to prefer a guest framework that's more subtle and more, I mean, I'm an as culture person, so my brain says more passive aggressive, but that's not necessarily fair.

There are a lot of people who grew up in guest culture who are, are really good at reading body language and understanding subtlety in ways that me, as somebody who's been. Encouraged to be an ask culture person. I just don't always catch those cues. Yeah. 'cause I'm just accustomed to, you will tell me what you need and want.

So I think there are things that we can each learn from each other in that. Mm-hmm. That are not things that are easy to teach at a university when you're trying to do a rape prevention class, because it's all very messy. Therefore, a lot of my consent education has focused a lot more on how to own up when you have crossed a line, because you cannot control somebody else and their understanding of consent, but you can control yourself.

[00:33:49] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:50] Kitty: And you can navigate your own consent. You can understand. How you feel. You can acknowledge this was beyond my boundary. Mm-hmm. Or I am unhappy with how that went down, but I also understand how that happened and no one's necessarily at fault. Mm-hmm. Those are, they're very different things. Yeah.

But we're often taught that they're the same.

[00:34:19] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:20] Kitty: I don't think that does anybody a service.

[00:34:22] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:34:23] Kitty: I think it makes it scary to take accountability when we mess up, which we will inevitably do. Right. Because we are humans in a society with other humans. I would much rather live in a world where we are encouraged to own our mistakes and make restitution so that we are centering consent rather than centering punishment.

Mm-hmm. I think that's also a lot harder to. I don't know what the right word is for this, but like it's, it's harder to replicate on a larger scale because it's about trust. Mm-hmm. It's about knowing your community and trusting your community. It's about self-knowledge, which is hugely influenced by your environment, how much you are encouraged to know about yourself, how much you are encouraged to trust in authority or trust in some innate biological, whatever.

That makes a big difference. As somebody who has been raised to believe that men are inherently the head of the household and they are the authority over women is going to have a very different understanding of their own consent than somebody who is raised in a household that firmly believes in gender equality.

And even then, as somebody who is raised in a very feminist household. I still ran into issues where my consent was violated, or I wasn't sure if my consent was violated or not, and I had all of the tools. Mm. So if I had all the tools and all the framework, and I went to model mugging and I learned how to beat up a rapist if they jumped out at me from behind a bush.

Sure. And I still experienced sexual assault because I hadn't been taught the subtlety of, Hey, sometimes it's a person, you know? Yes. Usually it's a person, you know? Yes. Usually it's a person you've trusted. Yes. And sometimes because of that trust, it takes you a long time to really understand what the power dynamic was and Oh, right.

I couldn't leave this situation, so my consent was challenged from the beginning. Even then, what do I wanna do with that? Like, what do I, what is the transformative justice that I seek here? What would make me feel better? Is that something that requires the other person, or is this something that I can work on myself because, you know, I, I can't trust the other person to have my best interest at heart, clearly.

[00:37:15] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:16] Kitty: I think it's very complicated. Yeah. And I think that we live in a world that really wants it all to be very simple, right? Like, you are a rapist or you are a victim. You said yes or you said no. And I don't know, I think most human interactions are blurry and complicated if you said yes, because you are living with this person and you can't afford to get another apartment, right?

You said yes. Officially, according to what you're taught in college, A verbal yes is a yes. Right. I would say that's more complicated. I would say the coercion is a dynamic that's often not discussed because it's so much messier and you have to, I think when you talk about coercion, you have to accept that it is complicated and that you can fuck up without meaning to.

Mm-hmm. And I think that because of the dynamic that's encouraged of, there are rapists and there are victims, to acknowledge that you crossed a boundary is to label yourself a rapist. Mm. And that, and then you should be ostracized from society and you should never be around other people again. Mm-hmm. I think that has the opposite effect of what we are actually seeking when it comes to accountability.

Mm-hmm. That is. Additionally complicated because I don't think that a victim should have to be part of the rehabilitation process of somebody who has crossed their boundaries. I also have to acknowledge that a lot of the time in communities, it ends up being marginalized. Fms, who do a lot of that rehabilitation.

That's a problem, you know? Mm-hmm. I can understand communities being like, you know what? I don't care. I don't wanna be part of the rehabilitation of yet another cisgender white, hetero leaning man who has crossed multiple boundaries, and God knows the sex positive community, especially in the Bay Area. I can't count the number of community leaders I say in quotation who have had that happen.

Mm. And it's mostly been the fems of the community who are expected to hold this person's hand and walk them through the process of. Transformative, justice, transformative. Is that in fact transformative or is that mimicking the same society that we're trying to challenge and do something different from?

It's exhausting. Yeah. Like its exhausting to live. It's exhausting to be in my own brain. I hear you where I'm thinking about this stuff all the time. I hear you. I think that, yeah, it's just our society wants it to be really, really easy because they want to know where they stand. And I think that's a very human thing to want.

And I also don't think that is. The way of the world?

[00:40:25] Dr. Nicole: No, not at all. Not at all. Right. We want clarity, we want easy boxes. But like you're saying, we live in the nuance. We live in the gray space. Yeah. And so I have so much sympathy for the experience of your brain. 'cause I feel like I live in a similar space, uh, as someone who thinks about these things constantly and has worked with perpetrators of violence even before, who refuse to disclose that to me.

But I had known through, uh, like parts of the people they had abused in the same organization, stuff like that, where I'm just like, how do I sit in this room and do therapy with this person who refuses to tell me this piece that I know? Like, like, ugh. You know? It's just like stuff like,

[00:41:07] Kitty: yeah. Am am I enabling it?

Yes. Am I not immediately challenging it? It's just like, oh my God, it has to be, Ugh. It has to be more nuanced than that. Mm-hmm. And I think. I think strangely, as much as I have been a rabid anti-fascist mm-hmm. For, again, my entire adult life, I have also become more subtle. Mm-hmm. In that I have gone away.

I, I still agree with and support that, for example, punching a Nazi I think is an inherent good. I also think it's important to recognize that I wanna be damn sure that the person I'm punching is in fact a Nazi and not just an edge Lord. Because the morality of just punching an edge, Lord, for being edgy, I mean, I'm not gonna cry over it, but it's not personally my vibe.

And that led me to think a lot about things like even guillotine jokes. Sure, yeah. Eat the rich Right. Except I have a lot of friends in tech who are doing incredible things with their, ill-gotten tech money to support sex workers, to support houseless people, to support people who've been thrown in jail for, you know, psychedelics or marijuana charges.

Yeah. I don't want those people to be first against the wall just because they happen to have more financial resources. Mm-hmm. I think they're being as responsible as they can be with those. So it, again, it, it just becomes complicated. I also know support people who are real dicks. Yeah. So like, I dunno.

Mm-hmm. I don't think that just because somebody is this identity necessarily that should impact them forever. I think we gotta look at behaviors. I really liked how Mia Mackenzie, who used to write Black girl Dangerous, she wrote this. Piece where she talked about not using the word ally anymore, that you were either working in solidarity with or you weren't.

Mm. Being an ally was an active term that you had to be constantly choosing allyship. Sure. And it wasn't something you got to decide for yourself. Other people had to decide that for you. Mm-hmm. I think that works really well for me as a framework where it's about what are the consistent behaviors, because I'm, I'm not inclined to call somebody an abuser because they fucked up once.

Mm-hmm. Necessarily. Mm-hmm. I mean, if it's really severe, maybe what really severe means relative, who am I to decide that this is why I'm not a judge. On the other hand, I'm much more inclined to look at. Consistent behaviors. Sure. Is this something that they do with multiple partners, with people at their workplace?

Even if it's more subtle? If it is more consistent, I am going to be much more wary of that person because I have seen a tendency, mm-hmm. Rather than a mistake. Mm-hmm. And for me, I feel like that has been a lot of my education with consent culture stuff is looking at those tendencies. Looking at those tendencies within ourselves.

You know, I had to think a lot about the fact that I was raised to be very vocal. Sure. And therefore, when I'm in a conversation with somebody who is more marginalized than I am, I have to be really aware to take a step back to allow them to take a step forward so I'm not steamrolling over them. Right.

So. There's a lot of self-awareness that comes into play and a lot of acknowledging that even if you mean the absolute best, sometimes you're gonna fuck up. Mm-hmm. And that is okay. How you respond to that is an extremely part, important part of that. Conversation, you know?

[00:45:29] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. I hear again, big word nuance, right?

Yeah. Nuance in this conversation, which there's often not enough of. 'cause we want those answers, you know, even Absolutely. The I, for a long time I thought the power dynamics of even the workspace was absolutely provi prohibited from ever engaging in any sort of sexual dynamic where there was that power structure.

And for me, I had such a mind, fuck when I was dating a like climbing gym manager who started dating one of his employees, and I was like, how could you po? There is a power dynamic, right? And I. Ended up walking away from that relationship and then everyone was telling me, yeah, but this is service culture.

This is such a normalized thing. And so then just even expanding that to like how these things that I felt like were so black and white that like as a manager, you should not date someone where you have financial power over, and yet it is super common. That doesn't make it okay, but. If this person's wanting it, they're saying, I am choosing as an adult.

But then you have years later where, you know, people come back and say, that wasn't a full choice. Like you're saying stuff like that, that like, when I was in it, I was like, this is so disturbing to be around. Or even when I hear stories about therapists who have crossed that line and had sex with their clients, and then they say they're full consenting adults.

What's wrong with that? And so this world, like I, for so long, I thought it was much more black and white that the legal system would uphold this. I started volunteering for sexual assault counselor as a sexual assault counselor and going into ERs and doing that sort of work and realizing that's actually not the case.

Most, you know, cases Yeah. Will not be upheld, you know, and so it's, it's really jarring, like you said, exhausting and painful to get to the space where you're like, wow, this world is so much more in the gray space, so much more in the unclear of all of these topics.

[00:47:17] Kitty: Yeah, and I think one of the things that doesn't get talked a lot about, and I do understand why, because it is kind of scary to think about is that sometimes you tell yourself that you are making a choice. Because to understand the ways in which coercion comes into play makes you aware of the lack of your own agency in your life. And that's terrifying and, and horrifying and upsetting.

And a lot of people don't wanna have those thoughts. I get it. Like I, it completely ruined me to think about that for a while. Sure. I, I wouldn't say it's exactly the same, but in all of my reading about deconstruction that I've been doing to support, I, I mentor an evangelical teen. Mm-hmm. So I've been reading a lot about deconstruction to support him, even though I was raised pagan.

So yeah, all of that stuff is foreign to me. I joke with him a lot that I've probably done more Bible study with him than I've ever done in my life. Um, but like in learning that and like learning about his growing up, it also taught me a lot about the ways in which he had to believe that he was making choices for himself.

Even though to me it was very clear that there were external influences over almost every aspect of his life. He was homeschooled. He was going to church three or four times a week. His family really didn't encourage him to have friends outside of the church. Like every aspect of his life was controlled.

But for him, he sort of protected his brain that. Well, but I get to choose this church group or this church group. So that's a choice that I get to make. Yeah, yeah. I get it. I totally get it. And I had to be so careful talking to him about deconstruction in the gentlest ways, because I didn't want to break him.

Sure. I feel like it's very similar when it comes to sexuality and sex positivity. I can't count the number of, particularly women I have spoken to over the years who say, I thought I was being really sex positive, but now I realize that I was getting sexually used by men in this community. Mm-hmm. In order to feel wanted.

Mm-hmm. And I thought I was consenting. Yeah. I told them I was consenting. Right. I can't really blame them for thinking I was consenting. Yeah. There is no social reason for them to question my consent. Why would they, it benefits them, you know? Yeah. But it can be really emotionally intense to then look back and say, oh God, like I don't think that this was good for me.

Mm-hmm. But it's not really my fault and it's not really their fault. And society wants me to blame somebody. Yeah. So what do I do with that? Yeah. You know? And I think that's why you see a lot of people who come out of those communities and feel this pressure to blame somebody. And so are like, yeah, sex positivity, culture made me do this.

Mm. And maybe in some ways they did. Maybe they did it unconsciously. Even maybe sex positive community is being influenced by this sexist compulsory and hasn't really explored that and hasn't really thought about who's on the art. In their sex party spaces. Sure. Is it mostly white submissive women? Yes.

And dominant white men? Yes. Like how do you think that might subtly impact people in those spaces? It's a lot to think about. Mm-hmm. And so I think there are ways in which we can be aware of those larger dynamics, but at the end of the day, I think the only sane thing to do is to own your own shit and to offer space for people to begin to wrestle with these complications.

Mm-hmm. Without having to make a firm decisions. Mm-hmm. Without having to criminalize somebody or guilt somebody or guilt themselves. Mm-hmm. But to just exist in that nuance of complicated feelings and. For example, in, in your example of the climbing gym situation, you get to make the choice to say, you know, I'm uncomfortable with this, so I get, I get to walk away.

I'm not gonna tell you guys what to do, but I don't want to be involved here. That makes me feel uncomfortable. Yeah. And that's okay. Yeah. You know, to take it outside of sexuality for a second. Sure. My mother was an alcoholic. Mm. And that was a big part of her self-medication for trauma. Mm-hmm. She dealt with horrible trauma as a child.

Mm-hmm. And it definitely was negatively impacting her health.

[00:52:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:47] Kitty: And at some point I noticed that my dad didn't wanna talk to her about it because he was never somebody to like lay down the law and God knows. Yeah. Yeah. Like my house was definitely a matriarchal one. Yeah. And I was wrestling with having gotten sober and not wanting to make demands on somebody else at the same time, I felt if I didn't say something, would I regret that.

Mm. And I remember having a conversation with my mom that said, look, I'm not going to tell your doctors stuff that you are not comfortable with. I do think that there are things that you are experiencing that are being negatively impacted by the alcohol you drink. Mm. However, you get to make that, it's your body.

It literally is your body, your choice. Mm-hmm. So as long as you are aware and you are making an informed decision, I am okay with that.

[00:53:49] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:53:51] Kitty: I, I let go.

[00:53:52] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:53] Kitty: Of that. Mm-hmm. But I do want you to be aware that this is part of the choice that you're making. Even if nobody else is telling you this.

[00:54:03] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:04] Kitty: I say that without judgment.

I say that without an expectation of what you should do. I just want you to, to think about that. And that was really powerful to have that conversation, you know, to, to have that feeling of, of being willing to let go. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, it was, it was hard. It's really hard to accept other people's consent.

Yeah. When you think they're making a bad choice. Yeah. Like, you don't get to decide that for somebody else. Mm. Mm-hmm. And that is maybe one of the core tenets of my anarchy, is that I do not control anyone but myself. Mm-hmm. But I do control myself and I do get to decide for myself what my limits are.

Right. I don't believe in the libertarian, like every person is an island ideal. I think that we are, of course, all interconnected islands aren't islands. Exactly. Yeah. Let's, let's update that. Islands require a lot of support from other people. Yeah. But I do think that letting go of the desire to control other people is a constant practice.

Mm-hmm. Of surrender, which I hate. Mm-hmm. And I take a lot of psychedelic in my exploration of understanding, my reluctance to let go of control. But I think that is really important and I think that is part of the nuance for me as well, is acknowledging that people make choices that are not always what I think are best, but I don't know what's best for them.

Right. And all I can do is ask people, do you want advice? Do you want sympathy? Or you do just wanna be heard, right, first of all, and then do that thing. Mm-hmm. They actually are asking for mm-hmm. Rather than giving them advice that they don't want, or, you know, giving them sympathy when they aren't looking for sympathy.

Yeah, it's uh,

[00:56:25] Dr. Nicole: yes, the humbling journey, right? Yep. To sit back and say, I do not know what's best for this person. I think that was something I really struggled with, with working with, um, domestic violence survivors. Right. And when someone's in that sort of, or, or even actively in it, right. That, or even.

Less even into that spectrum. But when I hear things in a therapy office and I'm like, why don't you leave this person? Leave them now. And obviously there is a, a, a complete range of danger and needing to evacuate. Yeah. But there is this, this in-between space where my brain would constantly like, leave this person.

My supervisors would always remind me that just 'cause that person leaves that person, it doesn't mean they're gonna get into a better situation. It could actually be worse Nicole. And so what if you sit back and hold that space and hold the space of maybe they leave or they don't leave and you support them in that.

Right. Obviously there's that danger full like risking of life, death situation. But a lot of the rest of this is like, how can we sit back and ask for what people need and harm reduction. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Exactly. And

[00:57:28] Kitty: I mean, it's the same thing mentoring this evangelical team. Like there were definitely moments where I was like, run away, run away from home.

And I had to be like, no, no, because. This kid has no experience of living in the real world. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And like maybe there are ways that we can give him access to, for example, we talked about, okay, you're homeschooled. Maybe we could persuade your parents to let you go to community college. Mm-hmm. To take some classes to supplement your homeschooling because it will be cheaper for you to go to community college and then transfer your credits than for you to start at a four year university.

And that would be a way for you to begin to learn things outside of this enclosed environment. But we are selling it to your parents under the guise of something that they are more inclined to support. Mm-hmm. So they're like, which then we had a whole conversation about like, is it moral to lie to your parents?

Right. And it's like. Sometimes nuance. Yeah. Yeah. Nuance. Nuance. Um, which is why I'm like my next book is, um, I've been, I think the title is actually going to be what I've been jokingly calling it, which is A Good Kid's Guide to Rebellion, which is that I want to write about ways in which you can encourage critical thinking and learn about harm reduction and learn about things like financial choices when you have lived in a high control environment.

Yeah. And you have not been exposed to that kind of nuance. It is overwhelming. Mm-hmm. To leave a high control environment and suddenly be confronted with all of this nuance. Yeah. Some kids, I think, go out into the world and become hyper religious as a way of protecting themselves and closing down, because that feels safer to.

Maintain what they've known. Mm-hmm. And other kids go the complete opposite direction, have zero harm reduction strategies in place and go wild. Yeah. Both of those are totally understandable reactions. Mm-hmm. But I do think there are ways to prepare teenagers for that world without all or nothing. Right.

Yeah. And who better to teach them than a pagan anarchist who has been a bad kid their whole life? Uhhuh. Um, it feels like, I joke a lot with this teen that I am the snake on the tree of knowledge of good and evil, saying, oh sure. Well, do you really want knowledge or no? Mm. Like how much control do you want to have over your own life?

Mm. Is free will like. Do you want free will? Yeah. 'cause I don't think that you're being given it by your church. And so like let's step into it for real. And I think that is. Something that people need a, a soft on-ramp for. Yeah. Absolutely. Even if you're not growing up in a high control environment.

[01:00:40] Dr. Nicole: Right, right, right.

Absolutely. Yeah. I've seen, uh, journal entries from my past in that framework where I would pray that God would remove any of my own desires so that he could speak through me and use me as a vessel for his proclamation. Right. And so repeatedly denying self for the good of the church. Right. So it's, it's creepy, jarring to look back on my consciousness in that time and see how it was a product of its own environment and continues to be today.

Right. And so that deeper question about Absolutely fruit will, isly and like always interesting.

[01:01:14] Kitty: How can you know what you don't know? Right. Right. So like how can you give informed consent if you're not given information? Mm-hmm. And. So I what? It's funny you say that. 'cause when I was growing up, I grew up with a, a druid dad.

Mm-hmm. And a shaman inclined mother. Mm-hmm. And so while my parents liked to do drum circles and Sure. Meditative journeys, and my dad was like making appeals to the gods, I was like, don't call me. I do not wanna talk to you. Like, I'm just gonna live my life and be as ethical as possible. Oh. And you be cool.

Right, right, right, right. But don't call, I will not pick up. You will go to voicemail. Yeah. And that has been my relationship to spirituality where I think of myself as an atheist, but in the most apathetic. Way of like mm-hmm. I don't know if there are gods or not.

[01:02:12] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[01:02:12] Kitty: They do their thing. I do my thing.

We seem relatively cool with each other and I'm fine with that till I die. Mm-hmm. Like that sounds great. Staying humble sounds like a really different, again, experience of religion where like I wasn't raised with the idea that Yeah. God said nothing better to do than pay attention to me and my choices of life.

Right. Exactly. It was kind of more of a like, hey, like you make an appeal and they might or might not pay attention to you 'cause they're busy. Mm-hmm. And then I would speak to my Christian friends, were like, oh no, God was watching, watching all the time. He watches masturbate. Really? I like how Yeah, exactly.

Why? That seems weird. Yes. So it's just like such a different environment. Mm-hmm. That I was like, yeah, maybe I should write about this and say like, Hey, like. I know I'm an anomaly, but also there is another way to relate to the world.

[01:03:07] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. A very needed perspective. And I'm curious too, something that was sitting with me in simmering was this, the ways that I've seen consent culture almost weaponized now.

I, I jokingly when I go camping, make the joke that I did not give consent to the me the mosquito to bite me. I'm like, Hey, I did not give consent to that. You know, like jokingly. But I'm curious about, like, I've heard in the community, people who say like, I didn't give consent for you to write a letter to me.

Or I, I, you know, people who come into conversation and they're like, do I have your consent to share a story? And the story itself is like, something very, like, easy, normal. It's just like literally bringing it into the dynamic of the conversation and changing topics. And like it's, and at times I've looked at that person, I'm like, why is this?

No, you don't have to ask consent to show, to. Like, tell me the story about the cat that like your friend found and show me the picture. Why are you, you know, like, do you ever see it overused and weaponized in ways against people?

[01:04:11] Kitty: Well, I would say the first example is an example of weaponization of the second example is using consent culture in a sort of timid way.

Mm. Um, I don't have so much of a problem with that. I think as you get to know people, you begin to know what you should ask for and what you shouldn't. And mi being mindful of body language and stuff sure. Helps with that. You know, I think most people would say, yeah, if you've been a re in a relationship with somebody for five years or something, you probably aren't asking them if it's okay to hold their hand every time.

Right. Because you've gotten to know your partner's body language. Does that mean that you can't still mess up and maybe try to hold someone's hand when they don't want you to? Even if you've been together projects. No, absolutely. You can mess up, you know? Yeah. Like, God know, I've had partners I've been with for a while who came up to like try to massage my shoulders and I was mad with them.

Yeah. And even if it was fine for them to do it, when I wasn't mad with them, I definitely didn't want it now. Right. So I think, of course it's complicated. I'm fine with people erring on the side of asking. Um, however, again, I think that's, it's really different those two scenarios. One is about telling somebody else that they didn't do it right.

And one is taking ownership for yourself. One is saying like, I would like to tell you this story. Is it okay for me to take up that space right now? Which I have a best friend that I've known for many years who does have a tendency to like change the topic to herself a lot. And so she's learned to say like, oh, I'm so sorry.

Can I make this about me for a bit? Sure. And then we'll get back to your thing. Sure. And that's great. I love that because it makes me feel heard and seen as somebody who's less inclined to do that.

[01:06:09] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:06:10] Kitty: So like in that case, that's wonderful. I think in the case of people who say, I didn't give consent for you to do this thing, sometimes they're correct.

Sometimes it's being used as a way to needle at somebody else. Yeah. I think the perfect example of this for me is the people who say, well, I didn't consent to seeing leather daddies at Pride or drag queens at Pride, so therefore they shouldn't be there. I would say by being in the space of pride, you have given nonverbal consent to what happens at Pride.

You can look at what 30, 40 years of what is that pride? Mm-hmm. To have some good inclination of what's going to be there by go to a horror movie and there is Gore. I can't really be surprised. Yeah. Like I can do my own due diligence. This is me taking care of myself and say, oh, I don't wanna go to a horror movie where rape is a core thing that happens.

And so I boil a lot of movies for myself because that is something that's important to me. I want to go and enjoy the movie and I want the person who is with me to enjoy it as well. And so therefore, if I'm bummed out because something happened that I don't really like as a storytelling device. That's gonna ruin it for me and for them.

Sure. So I'm happy to spoil these things for myself so that I can make an informed decision.

[01:07:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:54] Kitty: The ways that I can take care of myself is by doing that, by letting people know that if they want to take me to see a horror movie, that there are certain things that I'm not into. I'm not into jump scares, I'm not into sexual violence as a core component most of the time.

Sometimes I think some horror movies do it really well. Sure. But that's rare. Sure. So I have restrictions on that. So I advocate for myself. If somebody takes me to a horror movie and there's a bunch of jump scares and a lot of sexual violence, I might turn to that person and say, I kind of feel like you bait and switched me here.

Yeah. Like, you really wanted to see this movie. You know, these aren't my things.

[01:08:37] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:39] Kitty: That makes me feel kind of bad. Yeah. I wouldn't necessarily frame them as, I didn't consent to that because again, I kind of did. I consented to what I had information about.

[01:08:51] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:51] Kitty: The information that I had was, this person knows my limit and I'm trusting that they have done the research.

I also have to acknowledge if I didn't do the research as well there. Right. I do have some ownership there that going to see a horror movie is already kind of a danger zone. If we're gonna go see a Disney movie, I could be pretty sure there aren't gonna be jump scares and there aren't gonna be sexual violence.

[01:09:20] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:09:21] Kitty: So like I, you know, there are areas where it's a little more risky. Sure. And I have to decide how much of a risk I'm willing to take. I think if I had repeatedly told this person these limits, or they repeatedly broke those limits, I would say. I really can't trust you. Mm-hmm. To respect those limits.

Mm-hmm. And therefore, I'm not going to go see movies with you anymore. Yeah. I can't control that this person might not remember those things because for them it's not a big deal. Mm-hmm. Or maybe they think that if I just build up a tolerance, I'll be more okay with it. Yeah. For me personally, and this isn't to say this is the right way, I don't care which one of those two things it is, I care about the result, which is that I am being exposed to something I have clearly stated I don't wanna be exposed to.

Mm-hmm. And that has impacted my trust for this person in making those kinds of judgment calls. Yep. I wouldn't be wrong to say that I didn't consent, I wouldn't be entirely correct either. I think that's where you get into that nuance in that like. Sort of coercion zone or like little manipulations where if somebody really wants you to do something mm-hmm.

They'll kind of block out the reasons why you wouldn't want to Yes. And favor the reasons why. Why they think you would want to. That's just something humans do all the time. So do I think it's malicious? Mm-hmm. Not necessarily. Is it exhausting? Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Um, I think it is really hard to figure out where are the lines when it comes to things like consent.

I don't agree that pride needs to take into account sex repulsed, asexuals. That's just, it's not a space where that is guaranteed. That is okay. I think for the greater good of that space being held for things that society has considered sexually deviant for a very long time, I think that's important to have in public.

Mm-hmm. And if I am not feeling that vibe, I just won't go. I don't think they have to morph to me. I think I have to make a decision for myself. Do I think it's frustrating that many pride things are at bars or where alcohol is extensively available? Yeah. I don't go to a lot of pride stuff because of that and it's kind of disappointing.

If I wanted to change that I would probably do something myself and create a space. But I am that kind of person who will make an event, will find a way to ha create the space I wanna see. I have the time and the energy to do that. Not everybody does. So I, I see that argument as well. Mm-hmm. You know, like, yeah, it would be nice for more, um, pride spaces to have less sexual, at least sections or sober sections and I mean, in San Francisco that those exist.

Yeah. So I think you can have both of those things. I don't think it has to be an either or. I think it can be a yes. And, and I wonder why there is this tendency to say, I want this, and therefore you all have to conform to that. Yeah. I think it is a very Christo fascist idea. I want. To have a life that is surrounded by Christianity and therefore everybody around me, the entire United States must do that as well.

Yeah. Why? Yeah. You know, like you're perfectly capable of living in that space. If that's what you want, why do I have to do it, you know? Mm-hmm. 'cause it that person, you know? Yeah. I think that's where, but that's controlling. Mm-hmm. That is you trying to control other people and their decisions based on your own desires.

Right. Right. Yep. So yeah. Gotta let go of those tendencies. Mm-hmm. Um, I don't know what the answer necessarily is. Yeah. When it comes to, I mean, I, I will say I am very dismissive of people who don't want leather daddies and drag queens to be a pride. I think they have more Right. Contain, be a pride than basically anybody else.

Yeah. They fucking started it. Um, but I do have some sympathy for people who. Are trying to be in queer spaces who need something, a little more S date. I think it is possible to make those spaces and to find those spaces. And if it is a priority for you, I think you can do that. So I think both of those spaces are important.

Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. I do see a lot of people like weaponizing therapy speak more generally, like everybody who acts selfishly as a narcissist. Yeah. It's not statistically possible. I think unfortunately, we live in a society that really encourages and prioritizes selfishness and entitlement, and therefore people act in that way.

Does that mean you're a narcissist? No. Does it mean that you are acting in a narcissistic fashion sometimes. Those are different. One is a diagnosis and one is not

[01:15:11] Dr. Nicole: sure, and I'll burn the diagnosis and like say this is all a spectrum anyways. You know, so like, you know, so it's like, ah,

[01:15:18] Kitty: I mean, kind of like, like what happened with, um, borderline personalities disorder mm-hmm.

That became a whole, like every, every teenage girl for an extended period of time had borderline personality disorder and or bipolar.

[01:15:34] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:15:34] Kitty: Which feels like a jerk when a lot of it was being a teenage girl in a society that didn't think you had much work. You know, like Right. Yeah. Yeah. It so much more complicated than anybody wants it to be.

Yes. And I think we love boxes and labels and diagnoses because we can encourage conformity.

[01:15:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:15:57] Kitty: If we, if we can decide what is deviant, then we can decide what is right. We can punish the deviant or we can medicate the deviant and make it right. Yep. And that's just not how people are. Yep, yep, yep.

People are complicated. People can be assholes one day and be the nicest people the next. A lot of religious people are both things all the time. Mm-hmm. You know, Reverend Jim Jones of all people was initially trying to do something anti-racist, you know? Mm-hmm. He did it badly and it had disastrous results that ended up being actually super racist.

I think it's important to acknowledge both of those things because I think it's important to acknowledge the complications and the nuance and that you can initially mean well and lose the way you can. Never have meant well, but be able to manipulate people by making them think that you meant well.

Yeah. Sometimes you don't necessarily know the difference. Yeah. It's gonna take you time to figure that out. Right. I definitely had a moment where I realized that I was kind of a bully to my friends in high school. I didn't know that I was doing that. I didn't mean to be doing that, but I can definitely look back and be like, oh, wow.

There were a lot of times where I took charge of my friend group and decided that what I wanted was the most important thing.

[01:17:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:17:27] Kitty: And it was very humbling to take ownership for that and to reach out to those people and say, Hey, I, I've been thinking about this. I realized I was doing this when we were teens and I'm really sorry.

I really feel like I didn't validate you and your choices and I didn't. Acknowledge that you were your own individual person. Mm. And not just an extension of my will. Mm. Mm-hmm. And that was because I was young and selfish. Mm-hmm. And I'm really sorry about that. I think I wanna live in a world where people feel comfortable doing that.

[01:18:02] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:18:03] Kitty: And not in a world where people feel like they have to double down because to acknowledge that you fucked up is going to lead you to be isolated and demonized forever. Mm-hmm. Because the strategy of isolating and demonizing people forever, it's clearly not working.

[01:18:27] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Which is part of why I don't like the DSM.

Right. So you can come to my DSM burning party, you know? Yeah. Like, just throw it on the fire.

[01:18:36] Kitty: We can see that the person industrial complex doesn't work. Mm-hmm. So if we're gonna rethink those things, like I, I think you had mentioned briefly about restorative justice. I went to a really good talk, um, where one of the questions asked was restoring to what?

[01:18:55] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. That's a good question.

[01:18:57] Kitty: the question feels complex has always been Yeah. Problematic. Yeah. And I was like, oh shit. Oh my God. You're right. Oh God. And that's when I started using transformative justice, because I thought that was such an interesting critique. That was a really. I don't know.

Provocative normalization. Mm-hmm. Of the idea that there was something to restore to that was better.

[01:19:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Ideally. Community, right? Like community. Yeah. Community care.

[01:19:27] Kitty: I just, I love those kinds of thought puzzles. Yeah. But also it is, I mean, I'm a professional writer, so I get to take a lot of time to think about these things.

Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't understand if I was working a 40 hour a week job. I would not want to think about this stuff as much as I do.

[01:19:44] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:19:45] Kitty: Right.

[01:19:45] Dr. Nicole: And then we, that could open up the next level conversation about liberation and the systems and being hogs in the system because you have to work the job so you don't get to work on these skills and these concepts and these ideas and all this feels like the, uh, the magician who starts pulling the scarf outta the hat and then just.

Pulling it, pulling it, pulling it, pulling it. Yeah. And there's no end, you know? So like, yeah. Uh, yeah. I feel like some of the, the biggest things that I'm hearing you say, you know, in, in summary as, as we're reflecting and integrating are the nuance of all of these things, the tendency for the human mind to want patterns and clear A or B, black or white, when reality is that's not life.

That's not how the human existence works. And so getting into more of that gray space, unpacking the preference for a clear narrative and what does it mean to get into the murky as well as what does it mean to grow and change over time. And be humble about that process and where it takes you, um, the moments where you see other people doing things, how can you understand a little bit of context of where they're at, as well as how they'll change over time.

As you spoke to, and I've spoken to, um, and so I, I, and this conversation was so powerful and getting into so much of the nuance that I think we lose in a lot of onlines. Spaces a lot of communities. Yeah. And so I'm, I'm so grateful that you were able to be here with me to pull out all of the tissue, you know?

Yeah. And keep pulling it together.

[01:21:04] Kitty: Well, thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. I mean, and when I, when I worked on my workbook, ask yourself the consent culture workbook, I wrote it specifically with the intention that there were 28 prompts, so you could do the whole thing in a month if you really wanted to. Sure.

But I also said multiple times throughout the book, you don't have to do that. That's a lot. And that is gonna be really intense. Yeah. So feel free to do, like, you can skip around. All of these prompts are independent. You can decide that you wanna work on this section and then work on another section.

[01:21:41] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:21:42] Kitty: You can decide that you wanna do one prompt and then you put the book away. Yeah. For a month or a year. That's okay. It is made for that.

[01:21:51] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:21:51] Kitty: I think that. Was really important to me because I read a lot of workbooks that seem to insist on a consistent practice. Mm. And I think there is value to that.

I just think that there is also value to giving people permission to take a break. Oh yeah. And I think for me and for what I'm working on, it is more important to encourage people to own their own consent and their own agency. That is the important work. The workbook is kind of a tool for that work.

Mm-hmm. But if part of that work is to say, I need to put this down. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Awesome. Good job knowing yourself. Yes. I didn't want people to feel like that wasn't okay. Mm-hmm. And I think, um, when I did the teen version, uh, say more consent conversations for teens, it was very much with that idea as well of like, skip around to what you're struggling with right now.

You don't have to do this in order, you don't have to do this with your parents. I think I actually wrote a forward for parents that was like, or for caregivers because it's not just parents. Sure. Um, exclusively. Sure. But give this to your teen and then leave them alone. Yeah. Like don't check up on them about it.

That's not your place. Like you've given them the tools and now it's their opportunity to explore it however feels good for them. That is the first step to giving them the agency you want them to have.

[01:23:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:23:26] Kitty: And I know that's hard 'cause you wanna check up on them and you wanna be involved. If they want you to be involved, they'll come to you.

[01:23:33] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:23:34] Kitty: But you gotta trust them.

[01:23:35] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:23:36] Kitty: And you gotta give them the space to come to you. Yeah. Um, and I think that has been. Probably one of the more provocative things that I've ever written in a book. Yeah. Uh, but it has been really well received and I think that, um, I mean that book is really gonna inform the Good Kids Guide to Rebellion in that I am going to write it in a similar way.

It's, while I think it's going to be relevant to a lot of kids who have grown up in religious totalitarian households. Sure. I'm definitely going to write it without that veil, I guess, or like without that focus. Because I think these things are true in a lot of different kinds of authoritarian household.

Mm-hmm. Or even high control households that aren't especially authoritarian, are just really tightly controlled for other reasons. Yeah. So, yeah, I think it's, it's interesting to like explore. Giving people information as they are ready to receive it and trusting that they will be ready to receive it at some point.

Right, and just being there for when they are. Yeah. Rather than. Insisting that people do it on my timeline. Yes. I mean, I'm a Capricorn, so I absolutely know what's right and everyone should do stuff by my timeline. But my big work is letting go of that and letting people be sure with their own vibes, I guess.

[01:25:08] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, I hear you. I hear you on that journey. I hear you on that journey. Well, and that's why I love a podcast space, right? Like this is a space people choose, opt into. Exactly. Can listen to at their own rate. So I love doing education in this way and I was so grateful to have you on the show and to share so much of your wisdom with everybody about these topics.

I can feel how many years are vibrating in you on these topics that you can get and then this and then that, and then this, and then that. So I feel the mind journeys you have traversed. Um, and so as we're wrapping up, I'm gonna take a deep breath with you. Okay. Uh,

and then I wanna check in and see if there's anything else that you wanna share with the listeners. Otherwise, I have a closing question for you.

[01:25:58] Kitty: I think the only thing I would want to share is that it is okay for this to feel overwhelming.

[01:26:06] Dr. Nicole: Uh, yes. It should

[01:26:08] Kitty: it is okay to take a step back, to slow down to fit with something for a while.

I think that if you allow yourself to do that, you are less likely to be avoidant of it. Mm. And so I will encourage you to do that because it is important to think about these things as hard as they are, as complicated as they are, but. It's also important to take a break Yeah. And go outside. Yes. And literally touch grass.

Yes. So the grass is actually really fun to touch. There's lots of different kinds. Yeah. Allow yourself that. Yeah. Because if you do, you will be able to do it more sustainably for longer and more deeply than if you try to just push yourself.

[01:27:00] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Ugh. Such wise words of wisdom. My, my plan after this is to immediately go outside and, and go enjoy that fresh air.

[01:27:07] Kitty: Oh yeah. Just sit in a hot tub, you know? Exactly the dream. Yeah. Just check out for a minute. It's okay.

[01:27:15] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Uh, well then if it feels good to you, I'll guide us towards our closing question. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So the last question that I ask every guest on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal

[01:27:32] Kitty: uncertainty.

Ooh. Yeah. I think people think other people know stuff that they don't know. I think so much social media, jealousy and competition is because you think that other people have it more together than you do. I think so many people get sucked into cults and MLMs. Yeah. And controlling religions. Yeah. And controlling relationships because they think that other people are more certain than them, and therefore they should trust that certainty.

[01:28:15] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:28:17] Kitty: It's not true. Mm. I think most people don't know what the fuck's going on. Sure. And like I think the people I trust more and more are the people who just own up to that. When I first started the consent culture journey that I've been on. I initially would say that I was a consent activist because that felt more comfortable.

And as I've continued on, I have become super suspicious of people who say that they're consent experts because I don't think that's possible. And I think anybody who markets themselves as a consent expert, you should kind of look a little Yeah. They probably don't mean anything by it. Yeah. But how is anyone an expert on anything?

Yes, yes. We're all constantly learning. Mm-hmm. And so uncertainty is normal and is cool. It's actually super exciting to be in a state of constant learning. Yeah. Like that's actually awesome. I think the more that you can sit with that uncertainty and be comfortable with it. The less likely you are to be defensive, the less likely you are to not trust your own gut.

The less likely you are to get sucked in to somebody else's certainty, the more you're going to be willing to ask questions about somebody else's certainty, which I think is good and healthy. Yep. So, yeah. Yeah. I would say uncertainty.

[01:29:50] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Absolutely. Right. I feel in some ways privileged as a therapist because people bring that into the room and they're like, I don't know what I'm doing.

I don't know this. I don't know that Rin. So, and I'm surrounded by that. That gives me that reminder that I'm not the only one who's equally wondering, what am I doing? Am I doing this right? And so often I wish I could give some of my more anxious clients that same experience of having a full caseload and seeing how many other people are like what?

Right. Yeah.

[01:30:19] Kitty: I think maybe one of the most provocative things my therapist ever said to me, I was freaking out about like, oh, what if I'm not handling? Like, what if there is all this trauma in my life and I'm just not handling it well, yeah. And I'm putting it all into boxes in the closet to deal with later.

And one day I'm gonna open the closet, it's all gonna come boring at me. Yeah. And she said, what if putting it into boxes in the closet is you dealing with it? Yeah. Organizing. And I was like, oh. Oh, that's interesting. I never thought about it that way. Like maybe that is the process of handling these things.

Mm-hmm. Is that they don't necessarily have to go away, but like now I know where they are and when I need to take that look at them, I know which box it's in. Yeah. Oh, maybe that is actually functional.

Maybe that's not something I'm doing wrong. So like that was very much learning to live with the uncertainty.

Learning to be the The tarot card. The fool, yeah. And trusting that I can step off this ledge and it will be okay. Mm mm-hmm. And at least it'll be different. Yes. And I'll probably be okay at the end of it. Yes. Either way.

[01:31:27] Dr. Nicole: Yes. You know, change is the only inevitable and I'm a humble learner of that process for a lifetime.

Yes, absolutely. Uh, kitty. Well it was such a joy to have you on the podcast today. I'm sure everyone is thinking, where can they find you? Where can they get your book? Please plug all of your resources that everyone can come and find you.

[01:31:49] Kitty: Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, you could find my books at Thorn Apple Press.

Um, I think you can find them on bookshop.org, which is where you could order them. That will go to indie bookstores. If you don't wanna use Amazon, you can also probably find them at your local library. Uh, my name is Kitty Stryker. That's K-I-T-T-Y-S-T-R-Y-K-E-R. And you can find me. Less so on Facebook.

I'm trying to wean myself off of it, but I have a page there officially Kitty Stryker, where you can find out book events that I'm doing or podcasts that I'm on. See a little bit about books that I'm working on. I do have a Patreon Yeah, that you could sign up for, which is just kitty Stryker. And that's where I post, uh, excerpts of books that I'm working on.

I get feedback from people and I'm also a medium as kitty Stryker. Basically, if you, if you Google Kitty Stryker, you will find me in a lot of different places. Uh, that's probably gonna be the easiest. 'cause every once in a while I have to change it to like pity underscore or something. I will say, don't Google me if you are at your workplace, because not all of the links will be safe for work.

I did work in adult industry for 14 years, so just be aware of that. But for the most part it's probably gonna be my books and me ranting about payment processors.

[01:33:20] Dr. Nicole: So, ah, so good. So good. And I'll make sure to have some of those links that you sent me in the show notes below. That way. Perfect. For some people.

Dear listener, if you don't wanna go through the process, they're linked in the show notes, I will have them for you. So, uh, kitty, thank you so much for joining me and all of the listeners today with sharing your wisdom.

[01:33:41] Kitty: Thank you. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This was really fun.

[01:33:44] Dr. Nicole: Of course!

If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast, and head on over to modern anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I wanna thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.