245: Relationship Anarchist: Jezebel

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Jezebel join us for another relationship anarchy research conversation. Together we talk about the power of curiosity, learning to reconfigure relationships and surrendering to the ego death of relationship anarchy. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists.

From around the world. Tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, author of the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and founder of The Pleasure Practice, where I support individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships.

Dear listener, happy New Year. Wow, 2026. We made it here, folks. We made it here. And you know what? Each year, the embodiment gets deeper. The pleasure gets a more ecstatic and the orgasms get bigger and better. Folks, full of tears, joy, laughter, and mutual care in our communities. That's the kind of mutual aid I'm here for.

Okay? And I am so delighted that you are here learning alongside with me, tuning into these episodes. And I have so much gratitude for Jezebel, for joining me and for all of the people this last year who have committed to the relationship anarchy research over these last couple years. Truly, thank you.

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And so the first question I like to ask each guest is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:06:34] Jezebel: My name is Jezebel Blessing. That is my chosen name, and I am a relationship anarchist. For the past nine years, I've practicing relationship anarchy and solo polyamory. Oh, i've been polyamorous for about 27 years, so a little over half my life.

This was a conscious decision that I came to when I found that monogamy was, the constraints of monogamy were not working for me, and I decided to just remain single for the rest of my life so that I could have the freedom that I wanted. And that I met somebody and I fell in love with that person and I said to him, I am not monogamous.

And he said, that's okay. I'm polyamorous. And I said, what that, and literally, that was the rest of my life. Ah, wow. Who introduced me to so many people and. Good and bad and up and down and everything has just always been the way I love people is to be open and free with that. In addition to being polyamorous, I am also, I identify as a queer pansexual.

And in addition to that, I'm also a goth, which means I follow the gothic subculture. And my hobbies are, I create beautiful gowns and festival wear from recycled materials.

[00:08:16] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:16] Jezebel: And that's what I do for fun. Mm-hmm. Um, and I'm just very eclectic person. I study magic. I, um, also have a motorcycle. So I just follow my bush no matter where it leads me.

Um, and I, I enjoy relationship anarchy because it gives me the freedom to be able to do that.

[00:08:39] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Ah, well, so exciting to have you on this show today. What a gift.

[00:08:47] Jezebel: Oh, thank you. Mm-hmm. Thank you. I appreciate being here.

[00:08:50] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. So many years of, of knowledge and wisdom. I'm curious even before we get into the RA question, what's one of the biggest things you've learned in all of those years of being polyamorous that you didn't know at the very beginning of the journey?

I know there's probably so many things, but

[00:09:09] Jezebel: there, there are so many things. Uh, I think the thing that I have carried with me was a few, a few pointers. Um, my early in, my early in my journey. One of my mentors, uh, morning Glory Ze told me that I needed to be comfortable with the word no. Mm oh gosh. Yeah.

And I needed to learn how to accept that with Grace and to understand that it wasn't a personal upfront and to honor somebody's no. Because that would mean that their Yes was also honest. That's probably one of the biggest lessons I've carried with me for 27 years.

[00:09:59] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:10:01] Jezebel: And huge. Yeah. And that love really does come in all flavors.

Mm-hmm. From deep lifelong commitments to brief friendships. Yeah. To somebody you meet at a party and you end up talking to them. For two hours and it just vibes that is love. Mm. That is a form of love.

[00:10:28] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:28] Jezebel: There. And that each part of that love is precious and beautiful and should not be discarded as, oh, well that's not the real thing.

'cause it did last and they never called me and Mm. So each, each love is a wonderful experience and we should just lean into that. Yeah.

[00:10:48] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:49] Jezebel: Because this world needs more of it.

[00:10:51] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. It's a bit of expanding that frame to see more intimacy and gratitude really. Right? Yes. Rather than just looking as love is one thing.

It's, it's seeing it in all of it. And when you start having that perspective, that frame shift, you feel the abundance of that love so much faster.

[00:11:10] Jezebel: Yes. For for sure. It also comes from loving yourself.

[00:11:14] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:11:15] Jezebel: If you love where you are at, you are not seeking validation through every person. You have your own strengths and your own weaknesses, and you're comfortable with that.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:11:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. That's a really huge foundation, right? Mm-hmm. When you have more of that internal source, you're not always looking so much the external, some sort of balance between the two, right? That loving community. And loving self, right. That that harmony between the, the outer world and the inner world mm-hmm.

I imagine makes it much, much more of an easier process. And I appreciated what you had said about the know, because Yeah. Personally, I mean, we know this in kink, right? That you, when you're playing, like you're the person you're playing with, you need to know that they have that no somewhere. And if they don't, that's the scariest thing.

It's really unsafe to play with someone who doesn't have that. No. And that limit, and I think that could be applied to all areas of life, right? In terms of trusting that that person has to be able to say no, even as just something as simple as like, do you wanna go get coffee together? Right. If that no.

Isn't there, like you can't really trust them as you said otherwise, that they'll be able to advocate. When you get to much more complex nuance, often conflict that happens in every human relationship.

[00:12:38] Jezebel: Correct? Yes. They'll, they'll, you need to have that trusted agency. That each person has a personal responsibility for their choices.

[00:12:48] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:48] Jezebel: And you know, especially when you start getting into matters of the heart and matters of intimacy with the body. Um, yeah. How do you navigate negotiation if both parties aren't at the table at the same level of power?

[00:13:08] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking about running down this line of conversation too before we get to the questions because I, I remember recording with, um, David Cooley who co-authored Polly Wise with Jessica Fern and the book that they wrote together.

And his advice was to wait to attach until you've seen people in conflict and Oh, sure. Which is, yeah, a beautiful concept. How you do that in practice, I think is tricky and nuanced. Um, but even this too is something I've thought about more, like, how can I wait to really get into deep connection with someone until I've seen them advocate for their no and trust that they have that.

Like it's, you know, like conflict is one area. I also wanna see that this person has clear boundaries and like isn't afraid to express that. And so I'm curious for you, how do you gauge, how do you gauge that when you're coming into new connections?

[00:13:59] Jezebel: Well, a simple thing like negotiating your schedules.

Mm-hmm. You want to see this person. You both have busy calendars and you, you're both excited to see each other. Do they honor their prior commitments and still find space for you? Are they comfortable with saying. When you say, how about this time? They say, oh, that doesn't work for me. How about this time?

Does that work for you? Mm-hmm. Or do they offer help me?

[00:14:37] Dr. Nicole: Hi, Fatcat

[00:14:37] Jezebel: Or they offer.  Speaking of negotiations of space.

[00:14:38] Dr. Nicole: Fat Cat said Yeah.

Exactly. Exactly. She has no boundaries. It's complicated.

[00:14:49] Jezebel: But do they offer a variety of times when they're available and we can find somewhere to, to connect, uh, that's comfortable for both of us?

Do they rush to put me into their schedule and. Don't show up on time or mm-hmm. You see, that's where, yeah, that's where those nuances come in. How do you show up for each other in that space and how, and I allow people to organically show me how they show up. Where, where are they at, where is their life at?

Do they have space for this new connection, or is this not the right time? And maybe we'll circle around later.

[00:15:38] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:39] Jezebel: Uh, I try to do the same thing for, for the people that I connect with in. Creating space for them, uh, showing up on time, being ready to a hundred percent. Connect with that person. Maybe take a few moments to decompress for the, from the day Yeah.

Before, before I meet with them. Mm-hmm. Even if it's a deep breath in the car.

[00:16:06] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

[00:16:09] Jezebel: That kind of work has been something that I've been perfecting over these past nine years of relationship. And learning how to bring my authentic self to the table as my relationships progress, and I live more of this lifestyle and this lifestyle in a more authentic way.

[00:16:35] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. This is so much of the wisdom that I appreciate. You know, when you've been doing it for so many years, the nuance of these things that you see, the green flags that you're looking for, right? Mm-hmm. Are they attuning to the other people in their ecosystem? Do they have the ability to like regulate and show up with presence?

Right? These are the things that I don't think I knew at the beginning of my journey, right, to look for is like green. Flags, you know, it's like, oh, I'm attracted to that person. I'm attracted to this person. Cool. Like, let's explore it. All right. And so coming to a bit more of like a nuance of like, okay, wow, I've, I've ate a lot at that buffet and I have a stomach ache.

Like how do I do this with a bit more like balance and making sure we got some nutrition and some sweets, like the whole thing. Right.

[00:17:25] Jezebel: And, and that takes a lot of self work as well. Yes. A lot of self-reflection. Yes. Um, I have a long history of being attracted to people who, um, exhibit narcissistic traits.

Oh, no. Because I had so much of an emptiness inside of myself that was looking for someone to tell me what to do and what was right. If, if I only do these things, I'll be perfect. So every person that came along who told me, well, if you just did this, then you'd be perfect. I would internalize that and try to mold myself around it, and then later find myself angry and resentful at them.

But really, I was angry and resentful at myself for not being authentic.

[00:18:17] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:18:18] Jezebel: I took a couple years of off dating Nice. And reflected if this was during the pandemic, so it was kind of, uh, convenient. Uhhuh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it took a couple years off, reflected a lot on myself, uh, did a lot of self work, came back, fell right back into the same traffic again.

Mm. But thankfully, this trap didn't last very long because I had done that self worth and I said, thought, wow, here I am again. Mm-hmm. Why am I, why am I here? Right. I'm here because I'm not listening to my authentic self. Mm. Okay. So we need to get away from this person. And then get back to our authentic self.

And then once I got back to that place and started listening to that authentic self taking self responsibility, responding to my independence and my unique connections from my own space. And if it didn't work, it wasn't a feeling. Mm-hmm. It was just not a com, not a compatible mesh. Right,

[00:19:29] Dr. Nicole: right. Exactly.

Exactly. Yep.

[00:19:31] Jezebel: And showing up that way. Stopped the narcissist trap. Mm-hmm. They stopped showing up in my life. Look at that. Oh my God. It's amazing. It's magical. Yeah.

[00:19:46] Dr. Nicole: Very. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I'm glad that you are deeper in that practice to notice. And it sounds like in a, in a new space, it reminds me a lot of the practice of meditation.

Right? When we're meditating, we say that it's never that you turn the mind off. It's more that noticing, right? And so mm-hmm. In, in the growth journey, it's, it's often that spiral, right? Where eventually in the spiral you hit that same point again, but maybe a little deeper. And this time, you know, the thought's still there.

Maybe that narcissist is glowing in, in attraction, but we at least recognize we're deeper in the spiral and we can recognize, take a bit more of that observer's mindset and say, yeah, we're not gonna go down that anymore. Right. And it's that awareness.

[00:20:30] Jezebel: Yeah. And sometimes just saying to that person, uh, disempowering the situation and saying, saying, I, I hear you and I understand that that's your perception of what would be perfect for you.

If that's what you need from me. I'm not your person. Yeah. And how do they handle that? Yeah. Speaking of perceptions and green flags, how do they handle my, no. My boundary? No, I don't want to do that. And they say, but if you, uh, but, uh, well, that's my answer. Hmm. I also have to be mindful that I don't do the same to them.

Right, exactly. It's never a one-sided street.

[00:21:27] Dr. Nicole: No, no, no. It's a very humbling, humbling journey, for sure. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I know. We're, we're getting into it deep here, which I love. And I'm also curious, I'm curious for you, how, how do you define relationship anarchy?

[00:21:44] Jezebel: Uh, let's see. Well, that is, wow. I know defining relationship anarchy is like trying to name a many headed beast.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Uh, I would say, let's see. I took, I made some notes because I knew that this was gonna happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I would say that relationship anarchy for me is a. Definition, there's a freedom of choice. Anarchy offers you options and choices, and what works for you, what works for your community, what works for the place that you want to be in life.

And that can be an ever shifting puzzle. Or it can be a static foundation with a kaleidoscope of different backgrounds. The other part of relationship anarchy that feels like relationship anarchy for me is the responsibility of being an independent person with overlaying interdependence.

[00:22:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:59] Jezebel: I myself, take care of my own financial freedoms, keep a roof over my head, close on my back, and gas in my car.

That's my responsibility to take care of that. I take care of my health. I take care of my mental wellness. There are many people and there are many factors that help support that, but it's up to me to foster and continue those relationships that keep that strength of independence going. And that's part of relationship anarchy.

And then there's the other part, like an underlying factor of anarchist thought is the power dynamic is more of an equal playing field. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. We all have something to contribute. How do we come together? To have this responsible independence so that we all have enough to share with others.

Mm-hmm. And that's, that is the part of anarchy mm-hmm. That I find so fascinating. A relationship anarchy is how do we be good on our own, but better together. Mm. And sharing in that way is, is just the beauty of it. Mm-hmm.

[00:24:42] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. I love that word of interdependence to describe that, right? To understand that we're all connected in this and our ability to, to be strong as an individual is so deeply connected to the community.

That's really what I love a lot about the training and the lens and theoretical orientation. I went down for psychology was the feminist orientation that came around in the seventies when women started being able to go to programs, uh, in America. And so they brought in this like whole new lens. Um, it's not that long ago folks, you know?

I always try to remember that. Sure. It's not that long ago. Um. That's the time I was born, so, yeah, exactly right. Yep. But that's a bit

[00:25:30] Jezebel: earlier than that. But yeah.

[00:25:31] Dr. Nicole: And so I try to remember that historical fact is when women were starting to make field, like contributions in the field in terms of theoretical views, um, around feminist thoughts specifically.

'cause there were some other folks, but they, the research I had done with the relational cultural theory, they would say that the self is formed by our connections, right? Mm-hmm. And so even this language that I'm saying out of my mouth, I didn't write this or create this, I learned it through social dynamics, right?

And so everything I've ever learned in my entire life that forms this consciousness I have is created through outside relationships that I have. And then of course, my internal combination, the way I swirl all of those together to make a beautiful, you know, experience. And so. I love that word of interdependence, right?

Where it's like there is no complete individual, we're always in connection and in that Yeah. How do we resource ourselves so that way we can also share with other people, as you said, like, um, being strong on your own, but even better together. I think that's a really powerful frame to look at it, right?

Um, 'cause we're stronger when we're in that collective and we can give back to other people who maybe don't have as much resources or access or privilege in all those sorts of ways.

[00:26:53] Jezebel: Correct. Correct. And I think that is why this podcast culture, the internet culture, the uh, free and open sharing of resources and information is so vital.

[00:27:09] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:27:09] Jezebel: To. Global consciousness. I love hearing from other cultures. Yeah. I love hearing from other backgrounds, choices that people make and why they made those choices and where they sit in comfort in that place. There's a beautiful sharing of understanding of our trials and tribulations as human beings.

[00:27:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:40] Jezebel: That transcends borders, that transcends, uh, languages at this point because we have wonderful tools that will allow us to communicate with people that we would not have been able to say 20 years ago.

[00:27:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:59] Jezebel: Um, to bring in understanding. Just in the past 10 years, I understand so much more about the cultures that would've probably frightened me several years ago.

[00:28:18] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:28:19] Jezebel: Because all I was told was what I saw from the news and relationship anarchy goes beyond just sex and intimacy and romance. It's also relationship anarchy of branching out, expanding, breaking down the borders in order to listen to what everybody has to contribute. And I think that is one of the overwhelming.

Dynamics of relationship anarchy that maybe doesn't get touched on as much. Mm. Most people just wanna talk about sex and romance and

[00:28:58] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:28:59] Jezebel: All that juicy stuff, and that's great. Yeah. But there's a relationship that we have that we can have when they start breaking down barriers and stop being afraid to be wrong, to, uh, be right, to be somewhere in between, just to share ideas.

[00:29:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, a big part of relationship anarchy is removing the. Prioritization that we place on sex and romance, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So it makes sense to be having that level of conversation about all the other types of intimacy, as you said at the beginning, right? Mm-hmm.

There's so many ways that we are connected to folks and that intimacy is right present in our lives. And so when we get out of the frame of only sex and romance, which I'm. Super passionate about talking about, 'cause Lord knows that is a very sticky place for so many of us, myself included in that. Like lifelong learning in that, that area and also, right, exactly.

So that's where I'm like, I'm honing in. That's my focus. Um, and, and also there relationship anarchy as a practice is so much deeper than that. And so if we only look at that, we're only seeing a part of relationship anarchy rather than the whole, um, practice itself, which as you're saying is much more, um, wider looking at platonic connections, looking at the global connections, looking at all the power structures.

I've even had people who talk about. Climate change is a part of their relationship anarchy practice, which makes sense to me. Like, look at the relationship to the earth that we live on. Mm-hmm. And then what are the power structures that are impacting our relationship to the land and to earth. Right? And so I see all that as connected.

I've seen some people talk about relationship anarchy to spirituality, which is also a place look at the power structures that have colonized different areas based on a he, him god, you know? Yes. A white, he, him god often. Uh, wow. You know? And so like there's so many power structures that you could get into that are way beyond just sex and romance for this conversation.

[00:31:19] Jezebel: Oh, correct. That could go on for days.

[00:31:22] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Isn't that beautiful? It's, it's lots of fun. Yeah. Sometimes when people ask like, what is relationship anarchy? I'm like, well, what is it not? Let's, maybe

[00:31:34] Jezebel: that's probably a shorter list.

[00:31:35] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And sometimes that is very common in the anarchy philosophy.

Rather than trying to define it, they're like, well, it's not this, not that, not this or that. So I think that's definitely in line with a lot of anarchist like lineage in terms of defining it by what it's not. 'cause it is so expansive in that sense. And so like, it's definitely not like hyper individualism, you know, or, or control over people and power structures in that way.

And so removing those things, it's much, much more expansive. And so how do you practice relationship anarchy? What does this look like in, in your daily life and your lived experience for you?

[00:32:13] Jezebel: I like to practice relationship anarchy by constantly remaining curious and open to learning. There needs to be, for me, this way of organically observing what is going on around me in order to create better relationship with the people and things that share my life.

I don't want to get locked into a dogmatic way of thinking that only this thing or only this way will do. I practice with being open and honest with myself. I keep an ongoing open dialogue with the people that I work with and, uh, share intimacy with and my friends. How do we learn from one another? Um, how do we help one another learn?

This is all part of this ongoing practice in relationship anarchy, of honoring ourselves as individuals and honoring our community as a organic growing being.

[00:33:50] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:52] Jezebel: We have a practice of sharing without fear we can open up and say, talking about this is very scary for me. And that communication, that honest communication means that the people around you can hold space for that.

Say, I see your fear. You can let go of it. You're safe with me. And this practice has brought me to a strength that I never knew I had a strength in that vulnerability that offers support for people who are also vulnerable. And so that practice of relationship anarchy brings us back to that honesty with self and with community.

[00:34:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:34:54] Jezebel: That is so amazingly liberating. Mm. That I didn't know. I existed before.

[00:35:05] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:06] Jezebel: Because before I existed in a place in my mind where if I show vulnerability, that means I'm weak. Oh. That means I'm not honored. Yeah. That is that place of that rigid dogmatic thinking that if you're not empowered, then someone will have power over you.

Mm-hmm. A relationship anarchy doesn't offer that relationship. Anarchy is a place where the power dynamic, dynamic, the power structure is broken and crumbles into a more smooth foundation for everyone to have a voice for everybody. Mm-hmm. To have strength.

[00:35:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:56] Jezebel: And so that, that is a big part of my practice of relationship anarchy is.

How do we dismantle this culture of power over and create a foundation of, uh, power with if that, I feel, I think that makes sense. It does to me.

[00:36:18] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So thank you for coming onto the show and sharing your voice to, to do that, right?

[00:36:25] Jezebel: Like yeah. That, that is the main reason I took the invitation is I felt like I've been doing this long enough that I have some valuable things to share.

Yeah. And I want people to understand that they don't have to know everything in order to live their lives the way that they wanna. It's okay to. It's okay to experiment, it's okay to fail. It's okay to pick yourself back up and do it, do it again a different way. Yeah. It's, it's all to choose your own adventure.

[00:37:10] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And that's a part of what it means to be human. Right. I think sometimes we look to other people, myself included, as if they have it all figured out and no one does. Right. You know, we get a little bit more, yeah. We get a little more clarity as we go through it, you know, like, okay. Mm-hmm. But at the end of the day, you'll still, you know, be crying one day confused at what's happening.

And, and if you're not, like what does that say about your life? If you're not hitting points where you're. Questioning and growing and learning, right? Like, to be in that sort of sort of stagnation where you're not continually unpacking things, it feels mm-hmm. To me, that feels like dead. Like, like quite literally.

Think of like stagnant water and stuff grows in that too. But for me it feels like, it feels like death. And so I, I hope that I'm still getting to the end of my life going, wow, I learned something new today. You know, like, because I'm growing in that expansion process, you know? And so I think Oh, correct.

Yeah. Yeah. It's so important to be humble about that. And I, I think that's also where it's really powerful to share, like you mentioned, your vulnerability with other people to say, I'm confused about this. I'm scared about this, I'm unsure of this. And to find strength and the ability to name that and to know that you'll be okay in that.

Mm-hmm. Man, you know, it's, it's, um, there's that word, vulnerability, hangover. Have you heard of that?

[00:38:32] Jezebel: Yes.

[00:38:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, I've experienced that. I, me too, just recently, you know, like just crying like a baby and next day being like, wow, that was a lot. You know? And it, it's, it's a part of process. Right. And I think it's beautiful also too, that there are people that we feel safe enough to even go to those spaces with.

'cause for myself, I've noticed like, um. Depending on what I'm talking about, if I'm talking about something really complex, uh, if I'm in a safe relationship, it's almost like the emotions bubble up without my control. Like, they just start to come up really strong in a ways where if it's a newer connection, I almost, my body's like keeping it kind of down my psyche.

The second I'm in like a deep, loving, caring relationship, I'm talking about something heavy, I'll cry like the biggest baby. And it is intense. It's intense, and I'm like, damn, what is this connection pulling out of me? You know? And it's the safety that creates that vulnerability.

[00:39:32] Jezebel: It it is, it's, I, I had that recently.

I met someone and fell for them and felt really strong emotions for this person. It's beautiful. Yeah. It's also terrifying. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Real, especially after, so, because I'm, I'm a very deep, loving person, and when I feel that for someone that sparks all kinds of internal dialogue about are you safe, are you going to get hurt?

Are you, um, are you giving too much? Mm. Are you, you know, the, just that internal dialogue, right, of the, all of those protectors that go on inside of me were really freaking out. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And eventually I gathered all of those protectors up and I said, okay, okay kids, I understand what you're trying to do and I hear you and I appreciate you, but we're going to fall in love.

And we're going to trust that even if this person turns out to be a dirty, horrible, cheating, awful person, which they didn't, but good. Even if they did, we can still pick ourselves up and get on with our life. Yeah. With, and just be richer for the experience.

[00:41:07] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. Right. To know that even if that worst case scenario comes out, right, you're strong enough mm-hmm.

And you have a web, a community of people that will be there with you. And so you're not alone. You're never alone, right? Mm-hmm. The the different things that you're connected to, again, the earth, the people, my cat, right? Like all these different things are connected to, so you're never alone, right? And so to trust that, um, in taking that leap of faith where we gauge if they have their no, we gauge their conflict skills, all that sort of stuff.

And even if you feel like you did the perfect vetting. Because what does perfect mean? But even if you feel like you did it, stuff happens. Right? And so if that happens,

[00:41:48] Jezebel: people can surprise you.

[00:41:49] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah. People surprise you. Years in, years in, you're like, what is this? Because people change.

[00:41:57] Jezebel: People change, and we all do.

And you change too.

[00:41:59] Dr. Nicole: Yep. Yep. Which was making me think about just our, our human desire for control. You know, we, we want to know what's going to happen to us. We want to know what's next. Mm-hmm. We want to know where our safety is. And so the amount of control we want, and I think often that's where we can find ourselves getting into narratives of a certain way of relating, uh, and finding control in that.

Because if we follow this path, it's very clear and controlled and defined, and nothing is going to change. But that's just not how life works. That's not how humanness works. Change is the only inevitable. Right. And so I think that requires a big embrace of grief. I can't control all of this. I can't control this person, and there may be things I wanted out of this path that change and evolve.

A vision maybe I had of where I was going with my life is no longer happening. And how do you sit with that grief, the acceptance of that, and then the ongoing consent of it all, right? Because when you're in relationship with people, just because you said, Hey, we have this vision of doing A, B, C, and D together.

That's an ongoing conversation of consent, right? And so, right. You have to be able to go through that with folks and just as much as in sex, right? That when someone says, no, we accept that and we embrace that and we say thank you. Like, I think it's hard when you've had a vision of maybe, you know, some clients that I've worked with have had visions of, um, living together and then one person decides that they don't want to live together anymore, and.

They wanna stay in deep relationship. And that is heartbreaking for the other partner who is not thriving with that. Right? And so how do you embrace that moment of consent that that's what your partner is asking for? And the tender parts of us who, when we hear that, say, I'm being abandoned. And so you wanna lash out at that person who's not trying to abandon you, but maybe just live in a different way of relating, Ugh.

Like what a moment of tearing open your heart to sit in that complexity. The grief of the vision, the ongoing consent of it all, and to not blow up the whole system because of how hard it can be to sit with that and how much it can feel like abandonment in the moment. That is, wow. Those are really, really deep skills to learn in the complexity of relationship anarchy.

[00:44:19] Jezebel: Yes. For for sure. And I, um, God's blessed the amazing therapists who have been in my life to help me navigate. That and to come into practice, I think the greatest tool one of my therapists ever gave me was Internal family systems.

[00:44:40] Dr. Nicole: Yes,

[00:44:41] Jezebel: absolutely. The IFS system.

[00:44:42] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:43] Jezebel: Because I have all of these voices in my head all of the time.

I, I have a Greek chorus with costume and props that are in constant dialogue with one another. Yeah. And IFS gave me the skills to be able to stop being the observer.

[00:45:05] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:06] Jezebel: And just being drug along through the, the mental play in my head and start being the director. Mm-hmm. But when disappointments come up in relationship anarchy, one of the beauties of this system is to be able to say, I hear you.

I understand you. I need a moment to wrestle with some of my desires and expectations and come back to this conversation and to this negotiation in a place where I feel I'm not reacting from my needs and my fears. Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So hard. So hard. In a more traditional setup, you have this, somebody shattered the magic mirror and the kingdom is going to fall apart.

Mm. So everything that you dreamed was your fairytale life is now being destroyed. There's no room for rebuilding until you've slammed the proverbial dragon and gotten back to that fairy tale again, and relationship anarchy. The magic mirror has been shattered. The kingdom is falling apart, and instead of suddenly seeing everything as an enemy in order to stop you from having your magic kingdom and your happily ever after, you would look at this as possibly saying, well, that's not the kingdom we have anymore.

So how do we rebuild?

[00:47:14] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:16] Jezebel: What is the new kingdom gonna look like? What is the new power structure gonna look like? How can we come back to this? In a way that we can both survive and thrive. Maybe it's a parting of ways for a while. Maybe it's a restructuring of the relationship. I don't know. It's fluid, it's changing, it's frightening.

[00:47:41] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:41] Jezebel: But it's not the end of the world.

[00:47:43] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:45] Jezebel: And that was such a big leap for me in relationship anarchy. To not see a breakup or a deescalation as a failure. Mm-hmm. As a, you know, something must be wrong. It's not happily ever after. Right. And coming back to that relationship again and saying, well, we still have a relationship.

We still care about each other. It's just not the way that we thought it was gonna be. So what do we need to do in order to support one another through this transition, which used to, you know, that transition used to mean break up, never see that person again. Yeah. Everybody took post stuff on the internet and says horrible things about each other.

Yeah. And then, and then nobody talks again.

[00:48:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:47] Jezebel: Now, in relationship anarchy, it's, our relationship is transitioned. It's something new, it's a friendship. Maybe it's a more casual thing. Maybe if we honor each other and see each other once or twice a year, depend, you know, somebody has to move away. But those structures, that connection, that it, that the threads that connect us just got longer.

Yeah. And instead of breaking entirely. And I think that that's a, a part of relationship anarchy that I really value.

[00:49:24] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:26] Jezebel: That we can change things without having to destroy them.

[00:49:31] Dr. Nicole: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, that's why I love the word reorienting, right? Mm-hmm. For sure. Yes. We're not breaking up, right.

We're not ending this. We're reorienting, we're finding new ways of relating, right? Even if that means, as you mentioned, a lot of distance in the connection. And I think that takes so many skills as we had spoken to, with grief, with, uh, letting go of control to a vision and, and embracing what is in the here and the now, right?

Rather than the past and the amount of regulation, self-regulation it takes, or maybe, I don't like that word, the amount of. Connection. You have to have introspection. Yeah. Like introspection and, and self, self connection with your body to be able to ground yourself. Right? Yes. In terms of, 'cause I want people to feel their experiences.

Of course, regulating is kind of a complex word of like what's allowed and not allowed, you know, in terms of regulating the body. But, uh, I just want people to be embodied so that we can have those sorts of changes in our life without, like you were saying, blowing it all up. We're starting campaigns against people.

Mm-hmm. Like, everyone hate this person. They're horrible. Right. The whole thing. Um, which is obviously a very nuanced topic of like, what do you do when there is. Problematic actions happening within your community, and how do you hold people accountable if there are mm-hmm. Uh, problematic actions happening.

Like it is important to share within the community for some sort of accountability model, right? So I think there's a fine line between starting a campaign against someone and also, hey, this person has done harm in the community. We need people to know. And that's a fine line. I could probably write a book on like, how do you find that out?

You know what I mean? That's complicated.

[00:51:20] Jezebel: You probably could, especially in our. Current, yeah. Uh, in our current system of knee-jerk reaction and cancel culture.

[00:51:31] Dr. Nicole: Yes, yes, yes. And I probably,

[00:51:34] Jezebel: but again, that could be another podcast entirely. Totally.

[00:51:37] Dr. Nicole: And it's probably a lot about introspection, you know, like in terms of like how active are you from other stuff versus through reality of the situation.

But that's, oh yeah. Uh, so I'm, I'm hearing for you this like ex spaciousness of possibilities with relationship anarchy. And so I'm curious, why do you practice relationship anarchy? Why is this something that calls to you?

[00:51:59] Jezebel: Uh, this call to me, oh my gosh. Well this really called to me because even though I've been openly polyamorous for so many years, there was still such an underlying foundation of monogamy culture, or as I like to use the term.

The Couplehood cult, this cult of being coupled that you have your primary relationship and then from your primary relationship you are allowed, and I use air quotes with that, allowed to explore other possibilities because you have this foundation of the couple, well, that was far too restrictive for my whimsical heart.

I, I don't have whatever that gene or desire or DNA makeup or however that happens in order to have. Only or prioritize, prioritize one relationship over the other. Mm-hmm. For me, love is a mini splendor thing. I have love for everyone and I want to explore those connections with freedom and security. So I came to relationship anarchy after a divorce 'cause I had tried everything including legal marriage.

And I met someone during that time that I was married just as I was contemplating divorce. And again, another, another partner in my life said, well, I'm so polyamorous and a relationship anarchist. And I said, well, what that and. Started, he started to open my eyes to this idea that relationship and polyamorous, solo polyamory can be an individual journey and not just a journey of couplehood.

[00:54:37] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:39] Jezebel: And that is how it kind of came about and why I practice relationship anarchy is I had always craved that individual freedom and sovereignty over my own life, over my own choices and my own decisions. And breaking free from that valuing or Yeah. Valuation of being a couple mm, felt so much more authentic to me.

[00:55:15] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:55:19] Jezebel: Because. We have a culture. We have a culture that values pairing up. Yeah. And how do we, how do we honor the individual? How do we elevate our personal freedoms,

[00:55:34] Dr. Nicole: right.

[00:55:36] Jezebel: And create a relationship with ourselves.

[00:55:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. We have a modern day culture that really values, well, we have a western, white, modern day culture that really values that, right?

Like, you can look around the world and that's not the case across the world. And then you can also look to historical beyond the last like couple of a hundred years. Right. And you're like, oh, okay. Okay. Wow. Okay. Got it. Got it. Mm-hmm. You know, so like this, it's always funny, you know, like this, this period of time we're in, in terms of human history is such a small, little, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, but just like, you know.

It was only 50 years ago. Women are coming into school. You know, we forget how close that was, you know? And so it's like this, this period where we're So nuclear is actually such a small little blip, but it feels like everything. 'cause it's the water that we're living in right now, right?

[00:56:30] Jezebel: Correct.

[00:56:30] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And we have,

[00:56:32] Jezebel: and we have these social cues.

Yeah. Of rewards for your complicity.

[00:56:41] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah. And that Tax benefits. Yeah. Tax benefits.

[00:56:47] Jezebel: You get a big old diamond on your finger. Right. Um, you get your tax benefits. Financial benefits, health, healthcare benefits.

[00:56:58] Dr. Nicole: Death. Death. Who takes care?

[00:56:59] Jezebel: Death benefits. Yeah. Everything from cradle to grave. Yep. You wanna be a parent, you need to be partnered.

[00:57:07] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:57:08] Jezebel: There's

[00:57:08] Dr. Nicole: to one, not three. I think three partners would be wiser. You know, let's have three adults in there, but what No bad.

[00:57:15] Jezebel: At least Yeah. Bad. You know, I mean, who's the actual mother? Who's the Oh, Jesus. The actual, actual father. It's like, ah, no, no, the two, this child is loved. That's all it needs.

[00:57:31] Dr. Nicole: If two is better than one, lemme tell you three is better than two.

You know, like that, that's just basic math. Let's keep going. Correct. Oh, I know. It kills me. It kills me. I, I honestly,

[00:57:41] Jezebel: go ahead. Yeah. No, this, but this is part of that nuclear couplehood cult. Oh yeah. That is so interwoven into our culture and it take, it's taken me a long time to deprogram myself. Sure. I even now, I still have twinges.

Oh, totally. I still have, oh, I still have those moments, especially when, when the people I love hit certain couplehood milestones with their partners. And while I don't want those things for myself, that doesn't mean it doesn't sting.

[00:58:20] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:58:21] Jezebel: To see them hit those milestones and be like, uh, what does that mean for me?

Mm. Does that mean I now have a lesser position in their life? Mm. Those are uncomfortable conversations.

[00:58:36] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, definitely.

[00:58:38] Jezebel: Definitely conver but valuable conversations. Yeah. Um, vulnerable conversations.

[00:58:45] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's like any exposure therapy, I feel like the deeper I go into the practice than less, unless I care about those societal things, you know, the sting of that becomes less and less where I'm just like, you know what?

I'm, I'm gone so far down the rabbit hole, I'm just gonna keep going deeper. Like, you know, like the surface level's getting further and further away where I'm like, yeah, I'm not really looking for like a tax. Marriage here, you know, like, and that being the highest significance of my life that I would be legally by the, by the United States government.

That's what I want for my, like, if anything, I want that further and further away from me. You know, like why, you know, if I'm gonna get tax benefits, I get that. But like, that is, for me personally, that's not the highest form of love to be like, sanctioned by the US government. That's, uh, you know, so like, correct.

So, yeah. You know, so just the further I go, I'm like, ah, yeah, I, I feel like, um, one of my. My biggest goals for my career, two of my biggest goals for my career would be to end rape culture and put as much end to that as I can in my lifetime. Yeah. And then to also invite the world to realize we all have multiple relationships, and I think that's the frame of relationship anarchy is it's not about sex, actually.

Right? You could have sexual fidelity and have sex with one person for the rest of your life and be a relationship anarchist that you don't have to fuck multiple people if you do. Beautiful. Hey, I do too. That's so great. But you don't have to, right? It's more so about that community embrace, and so I think that frame begins with the reality that we.

All already have multiple relationships, every single one of us on this planet because mm-hmm. When you're a baby, you cannot survive. We're social creatures and we need that for our mental health. And even if your relationship is to the earth, to the plants, to the animals, right? Like you're in deep relationship.

Right. And so what does it mean to start from that frame? I think it opens so much more. 'cause then we're looking at each individual relationship and how much intimacy, what sort of actions do we want in our life, you know? Mm-hmm. And how do we wanna connect with that person and that individual connection, rather than sometimes even the polyamorous lens can be like a monogamy plus lens as you spoke to.

Mm-hmm. Where it's like, instead of just one partner, now I have two and these are my partners, and the rest of the people are like, not my partners. They're like, not important, but these are my partners. Right. And so it's like, yes. It's like, ah, okay. This is where the relationship anarchy frame comes in.

Again, it's not about how many people you fuck, it's about the fact that you already have multiple relationships and can you sit in that regardless of how many people you're kissing, having sex with, or whatever. And so I'm curious for you, how has that changed your practice of intimacy coming in with this frame,

[01:01:31] Jezebel: uh, coming in with that frame?

My relationship to intimacy has changed. If anything, it has expanded. Yeah. It expanded in a way that I can feel like I can have intimate relationships, even if we're not getting naked together. Yep. That intimacy and the relationship with intimacy has opened up a glorious garden of delights. Beautiful.

That makes every single person. Around me, a, a new flower, a new fruit, a new feast of the senses. That doesn't mean that I have to consume those things. Like if you're, you know, you're walking through a garden and you see a beautiful flower, like that's a beautiful flower. I wonder if it smells nice. Oh yeah, it smells nice.

Oh, what a lovely thing. And then you walk away from it and move on to the next thing. You didn't pick it off of the place where it was growing, so the next person can enjoy that flower. You're not constantly go, I'm not constantly going around consuming people or consuming things. Yeah. Um, the practice of intimacy is more nuanced and just how I interact with everything and how I.

My own gifts to the table. Like I can be intimate with someone, share that intimacy of a conversation. Maybe it's just a, Hey, nice shoes. Yeah. That's an intimacy in, in and of its own. And I could do that with wholeheartedness without attaching a need to reci, you know, a need for reciprocation from that.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And the relationship anarchy has allowed me to gain that perspective because it's no longer, it takes the commodification I think out, or the consumption.

[01:03:47] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:03:47] Jezebel: Outta intimacy. And

[01:03:51] Dr. Nicole: yeah,

[01:03:51] Jezebel: offers a collaboration with intimacy that was not available to me before. Everything felt like it had to be a push pull or a consumer kind of society.

[01:04:10] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely, absolutely. Such important insight. Right? Again, look at how the systems are impacting our ability to love and Yeah. When we live in a society that, you know, you're, say a piece of clothing or some sort of object breaks, the first thought we have is to, oh, throw it away and get a new one. Mm-hmm.

How do you think that impacts our relationships? If that is how we deal with other things in our life? That means those neuronal pathways are much more myelinated, which means they. Happen much faster. The electrical current of our thought goes much faster. And that's the pathway we go down. And then you have that sort of built with all of these other relationships to objects, and then you have a human in your life.

There's some sort of conflict. Ah, yeah. Throw it away. There's more. I can just get another one. And like, how do you think that, what do you think that results in as a society when that's how we treat other things and, and, um, of course humans are not objects. However, there's a lot of psychodynamic theory that says people treat each other like objects.

Right. Where you can, you're so self-absorbed in your own experience that you like, feel yourself so much so, and other people are these object things that we, that's not really a line of thought I went down much, but there's whole like lines of theory about that. And so if you look at the way we treat other objects of, in a consumer culture yeah.

Look at this sort of pickup toss and discard sort of energy mm-hmm. That comes into our connections. And it, it's scary. It's scary the more we get into. Um, hyper individualistic spaces, the more the internet provides our ability. Like these days, if I want a recipe, I don't have to call my grandmother anymore.

You know, like, I wanna know how to change a tire. Like I can just look it up, you know, like I don't have to ask my brother, you know, like, so it's really fascinating to think how this is, how these pieces are impacting us. And so I see relationship anarchy is trying to really, uh, live into that new world.

That sort of like prefigurative politics of the values we wanna embody are much more tending to caring for slowing down. Mending ruptures rather than throwing away people or objects. Right. And so, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I, I hear that. And, and, and as you were saying this, this embrace of love and feeling more of it, I feel like that's a slow exposure process.

It's not like you flip a switch and you wake up and you're like, wow, love is abundant as much as like some psychedelics can give us, you know, you take the psychedelic, I feel it, you know, and so it's like, I think it's like a slow come up process depending on how fast you jumped into the community. You know what I mean?

If you jumped into a deep RA community, immediately you might be like, wow, this is, this is a high dose psychedelic, you know? But, uh, otherwise I feel like it is that slow, like. Frame shifting, frame shifting. That can be, um, as with psychedelics, a difficult ComeUp at first where you're like, wow, this is, this is a lot, this is a lot.

And so I'm, I'm curious where you, like, what were some of the difficulties of your, your ComeUp into relationship anarchy?

[01:07:12] Jezebel: Oh, let's see. Well, some of the difficulties, the first challenge that I hit was how to value my own desires without, like you just said, about consuming other people value of my own desires without consuming other people, bringing authenticity to what I wanted with a desire and a connection.

That fed both parties. Mm-hmm. Um, that was probably one of the biggest roadblocks to overcome some of the other difficulties is the limits that I placed upon myself in order to have authentic connection. Mm-hmm. Overcoming those limits, breaking them apart, dismantling them probably and saying. Well, it's not real unless X, Y, or Z happens.

[01:08:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:08:25] Jezebel: I had to break apart those thoughts. Well, where does that come from? Why is that there? What, what are the values that you placed on that and where, how does, how does that way of thinking limit you to, from experiencing a more open and connected experience and then that fear of not having control? That was a huge one.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Very real. Real and, and also the fear of control.

[01:09:01] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:09:02] Jezebel: Uh, early in my therapy, I had a therapist who helped me with some of my fears around. Situations where I felt uncomfortable. Mm. I was carrying a lot of fear around lack of control and a lack of agency and social situations.

[01:09:23] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:09:25] Jezebel: And so we explored where that fear came from.

We explored why that fear was coming up, and then finally started to work on giving myself permission to control the situation with my own boundaries that don't impact other people or take away from other people. Mm. You're can have boundaries without having rules. Mm. You can hold space without giving yourself up.

Mm. That that was a big. Challenge and a, and a big leap forward in that experience. And the further I get along this, the more difficulties I overcome, the more I have the freedom of agency in order to define my relationships or not define the relationship as I choose.

[01:10:28] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:10:29] Jezebel: And it's all about that choice.

These difficulties are self-imposed, but looking at the roots of where they come from, um, in our society and paying attention to how the tales of boogeyman have, have, uh, created a difficulty for you. Um. Mm-hmm. How, how did you, how do you dismantle your fears? Mm-hmm. It's, it's really, it's so nuanced when you talk about difficulties because you're talking about just the, the different places where everybody hits as an individual.

And you can have a difficulty with one person and not with another. You have a d find a difficulty, difficulty in yourself that challenges you. And I think that's a big part of relationship anarchy. That's kind of fun. Yeah. In its own way.

[01:11:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Learning type two,

[01:11:35] Jezebel: learning. Yeah.

[01:11:36] Dr. Nicole: Type two fun.

[01:11:40] Jezebel: Mm-hmm. Learning what difficulties are learning what your, where your, where your limits are.

[01:11:46] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:11:47] Jezebel: Um, do I want to overcome that limit or am I good where I'm at? Mm-hmm. Um, being aware of it. I mean, society, society will throw difficulties in your way no matter what. There's that. Aspect of not being recognized as a valid or sanctioned relationship.

Oh yeah, totally.

[01:12:06] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:12:06] Jezebel: You could be in a relationship with somebody for 20 years and because you don't hit X, Y, and Z mark right. Your relationship is devalued and the difficulties arise when you have an emergency situation. Mm-hmm. And you know, say God forbid somebody you love and care about passes away suddenly.

Mm-hmm. And you're not set up as their

[01:12:37] Dr. Nicole: right

[01:12:38] Jezebel: next of kin.

[01:12:39] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:12:40] Jezebel: Or their, or their emergency contact. Suddenly the government or whatever entity of power is in charge of that is calling their second cousin twice removed, who's never met them.

[01:12:53] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:12:54] Jezebel: Or to make funeral arrangements, right? Mm-hmm. And you're cut outta the situation entirely.

[01:13:00] Dr. Nicole: Yeah,

[01:13:00] Jezebel: absolutely. 'cause you're not family. How do we overcome that difficulty? We overcome that difficulty with powers of attorney.

[01:13:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:13:09] Jezebel: We overcome that difficulty with living wills. We overcome that difficulty by creating a mindful foundation of connection that is not, it is possible to overcome, but it takes conscious effort to create those connections in a way that isn't automatically sanctified by the powers that be what would happen to my cats if I didn't come home?

[01:13:42] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:13:42] Jezebel: Um. Yeah, I think I have a house.

[01:13:45] Dr. Nicole: No not Fat cat. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:13:47] Jezebel: I have a housemate next door who knows exactly who my wishes and knows exactly what, you know. She would take them, it would, I don't have to worry about that because I've set up a foundation to overcome that difficulty.

[01:14:00] Dr. Nicole: I've done that with the podcast quite literally.

My partner Cooper is like, if I die, you're, you have to produce all the episodes that are in the queue. You know, like, here's my, my password to my computer. Here's a plan. So dear listener, I have a plan for you. Right. We got a plan for the cats plan for the listeners.

[01:14:18] Jezebel: Exactly. Yeah. These are all difficulties that I wasn't expecting in practicing alternative relationships.

Yeah, because even in a primary based polyamorous relationship, you still have your one person, right? Or maybe your two people, your partners who are there. You know, who would pick up the pieces for you? Well, if you're relationship anarchist and say a solo polyamorous, how do you do that for yourself?

Mm-hmm. And I find the more and more information is coming out. More and more podcasts are being produced that are based on alternative solo relationships and supporting of ourselves and our community to overcome these difficulties that were unforeseen when not living in a nuclear, uh, nuclear family.

And it's not an easy path, but it's definitely a path where you can. Overcome some difficulties that you never thought you had.

[01:15:27] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Building that muscle is not easy, you know that first time. Mm-hmm. If you're running the marathon, that first mile is rough. That first time you try to lift the weight, it is rough.

Right. And so in our society, it is not built right now. It quite literally, our society capitalizes on our lack of emotional and relational skills. Because if we had more of that, we would come together to dismantle some of the power structures. Right. It's much better when correct. That people, uh, don't know how to communicate with each other and don't have a lot of skills for that.

'cause then they're better cogs in the machine of the factories to support the higher powers. Right. And so if you're trying to build these skills, which we're not taught in school, we don't spend 40 hour work weeks studying and getting deeper in, then yeah, it's gonna be hard that first mile, those first couple of lifts.

And it sounds like it's also something that you've gotten be better at, deeper with, and obviously there's always more to learn. Wow. What a humbling journey. And so I, I hear the difficulties of that and also a bit of the joys I imagine. So I love to always balance this question out with what are some of the joys you've experienced through that journey?

[01:16:41] Jezebel: Oh, the, well, the joys are. Thankfully more bountiful than the difficulties. Exactly,

[01:16:49] Dr. Nicole: yes. That's why I love this, this question. Yes, let's run with it.

[01:16:53] Jezebel: The joys of it. Oh my gosh. There is an underlying security that as a anxious attachment person that I never thought I could find when I have a freedom of choice.

Mm. Anxious attachment style used to be my foundation, constantly seeking security through the next person and the next person, and the next person. Well, this person's gonna gimme what I need. Well, that person's gonna gimme what I need. When I give myself what I need. I'm not anxious. Yeah. I can be attached or not attached, and I'm still okay.

And that security gives me a freedom. I didn't know was possible before. And it's exciting and heady and, and a crazy joy. Sometimes I just feel like just bursting out, laughing just at how incredible it is just to have that, and that that's what, that's probably my most overwhelming choice sometimes. Mm. I get to do whatever I want because I wanna.

Mm-hmm. And the other part of that is part of the ability to advocate for my needs without implied threat of disaster. I can say that I want something or need something, and even if the other person says I can't or I won't. It's not the end of the world. Mm-hmm. I can listen to that and I can say, okay, that's fine.

I guess we won't do that together.

[01:18:49] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Alright. Yeah.

[01:18:50] Jezebel: We'll do these other things together. Just like I said, the power of being able to accept no with grace and with love is part of the joy of relationship anarchy because it's not the end of the world.

[01:19:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:19:10] Jezebel: When you hear no, and it's not Also you're everything and end all.

Be all. If you get Yes. Mm. This isn't the only person that can give you what you need. Mm-hmm. This isn't the only person who can bring you what you want. Yeah. If that person goes away or if that situation changes, you have other outlets. Mm-hmm. You're not stuck with your kingdom in, in pieces and Right.

And, you know, having to rebuild because you are, you are the one who's built your own kingdom. It's an abundance mm-hmm. That I hadn't expected before. Mm. And then another joy, I think that extends also to the people in my life is being able to honor and hold space with our individual truths, because we're not carrying an agenda of escalation.

Sure. Yeah. We're able to honor that space and hold that for one another with, without devaluing the experience and the process. I have a very hard and fast rule that I have no interest in living with anybody else. Yeah, I hear that. Or having anybody live with me. Yeah. And I bent that rule a little bit for my best friend who needed a place to stay for a month while he got his life together in a way to be able to move on to, uh, move on to the next stage of his journey.

[01:20:55] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:20:55] Jezebel: And I was like, okay, I respect you enough and you respect me enough that I think we can live together for a month and have it work out fine. And it has, it's worked out great. Mm-hmm. There's a timeline.

[01:21:08] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:21:09] Jezebel: The honor came in being able to offer that to him without an agenda of, well, this, if you live with me, then that means that we're back together again.

Or you. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. There's, there's, um, there's a lack of agenda. There was just that honor in saying, okay, my, this person that I care about needs something from me. I can offer that to them for X amount of time. And it, it's a open flowing experience to be able to have this time together.

Yeah. And then we both move on to the next stages of our lives without it really having to have an agenda behind it.

[01:21:59] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:22:00] Jezebel: Uh, but I still have my hard and fast rule that I'm not living with any romantic partners.

[01:22:05] Dr. Nicole: I hear you. It's important for the revolution. A lot of privilege. And I'll, I'm so grateful for the ability to do that.

[01:22:14] Jezebel: Oh, so much. So much. And I do definitely value that privilege quite a bit because I do recognize that there are a lot of people who can't. Make that choice who don't have that ability.

[01:22:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I remember. But yeah, go ahead.

[01:22:31] Jezebel: Um, but that's, you know, that's another joy of, of relationship anarchy. Totally.

Isn't it? Like that joy of saying it doesn't mean that we're better, it means that we're just different and we can help each other. By recognizing the strengths in both positions,

[01:22:57] Dr. Nicole: right? Yeah. 'cause it's a power over model. If you look at other cultures and say, you're doing it wrong, I have the way Right?

That's a power over controlling model. And so that's not what we're trying to do, right? And so creating space for the diversity and all the different ways that people wanna show up, that's a part of their freedom and ability to choose and, and their empowerment with all of that. And, and for me, like we said, I I, women couldn't have credit cards.

They couldn't have bank accounts in their own name until the seventies, right? So I, I hold that with a lot of knowing historically and saying like, yeah, I'm gonna use my own bank account for my own studio apartment. And that's a really important piece of what I wanna explore with my time on this life because, uh, a lot of women.

Didn't have that opportunity. And so for me, I, I wanna do that. That is a part of my politics with relationship anarchy, is to experience the psychological head space that that even creates. I remember Virginia Wolf used to talk about a woman having a room of her own. Right. Just a room. Yes. And the psychological transformation that that could be.

And so yeah, picking it up in our modern age, very curious studio, apartment of your own, what does that create? How do you experience the world in very different, different paradigms? And, and so I, I hear you that very, very deeply and think it's, it's something that I share residents for prioritizing with my, my life.

And I hear the ways that you've stepped into flexibility to support your community when that is needed. Right. Ongoing evaluation of your values and, and when something's in alignment or not. And the ways that this practice has brought so much abundance into your life of intimacy, an opportunity because.

What I understand of relationship anarchy is it's about that mutuality. We're not in these dyadic connections where we're like expecting the other person to meet all of our world, right? And so when we're not in that paradigm, we're able to that cat crawling straight by the mic. Uh, when we're not in those dyadic worlds, it's about meeting of mutuality.

You know, you can say like, Hey, this is how I'd like to relate. They say, yes, that's great for me too. Great. We'll meet there. And if they say no. Whether it's you, me, or that other person, that's okay. I support you Finding those desires with other people. What are the ways we can relate together? And so that creates so much freedom, as you said, to do the things that you wanna do.

And holding that balance between our freedom and the community care to like walk both with that hand in hand and it, and it creates a lot of space of mutuality to come together through that. Mm-hmm. Which is, is such a beauty. And I'm curious for you, you know, the last question, which is, what do you wish other people knew about relationship anarchy?

Given all this time, the wisdom you've had to sit at this practice, what do you wish other people knew?

[01:25:58] Jezebel: Well, it's a challenging thing to say because I know for myself sometimes when someone would say this to me that you can choose. You want in life and still be valid and still have your life be a valid expression of your individual desires.

And that is such a double-edged sword because there are times in my life when I did not feel like I had a choice because I had not set myself up into a position to give myself that choice.

[01:26:39] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:26:40] Jezebel: And so I know that when I say you can choose and still be valid, that does come from a position of some privilege because of the work that I've done and because of the choices that I've made, that choice is not a magic pill that makes everything amazing.

That choice is hard, that choice. Is a sacrifice sometimes. Mm-hmm. That choice can also be terrifying, but it's still a choice that I want people to understand They have. Yeah. You really can, even if you have to work three times harder than the other person, even if it means moving away from your family or maybe the place that you, that you're, you grew up, you still do have a choice in order to make that happen.

And I want people to understand that that's valid, even if it scares somebody. Even if somebody says, but I don't want you to. Making that choice can mean. Hurting people. It can mean scaring people, but it's still your individual choice. Yeah, and that's a big part of that relationship anarchy that I want people to understand that the path may be hard, but that individual reward of living your life on your own terms is worth it.

The other thing I want people, gosh, I wish I could make people understand this, is that all forms of love and pleasure are sacred. And holding that sacred space for one another is one of our greatest beau most beautiful gifts that we can give to the world. That sacred form of love and pleasure and delight is what makes life really.

Worth living. Yeah. And you can have that for yourself without denying it for other people. Mm-hmm. And I, I have a sign on my front door. It's a heart with a rainbow that says Love is love.

[01:29:18] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:29:19] Jezebel: And that every day is that love. It's a verb. It's an active, yeah. Working thing that we do every day in order to bring to light and joy and beauty into our lives, into, uh, onto our planet and to our culture.

[01:29:41] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:29:42] Jezebel: That is not a finite resource. It's infinite and can be expressed in so many beautiful ways. Oh. So that's what I really wish that people just. I mm-hmm. Like their souls that I wish people knew that they had choice and that they could be in love, and that they can live in love.

[01:30:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm mm Well, you did such a beautiful job bringing that love into the podcast today.

I, I'm really grateful. Thank that you could bring all of that wisdom into the space and share all of that with the listeners.

[01:30:23] Jezebel: I am very, very happy to, I, um, yeah, it's an ongoing journey and I hope that it really helps other people see that their choices are valid as well.

[01:30:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. 'cause I think when you're following what.

Your alignment, the things that bring you joy, your authenticity, there is that individual joy for it. And I also think that's a collective joy because when you are your authentic self, you're in your fullest expression of that. I, I fundamentally believe that we're social beings that thrive when we are in deeper connection and, and happy connection with one another.

Um, you know, they're rewriting the theories on evolution to be more collective because we, we needed each other to survive. Um, and so as we get into more spaces of realizing that other differences between us are not necessarily a threat as much as it was, you know, in times where resources were more scarce as we were developing as a species, and when we had much more fear of anything that was different and we're still learning to get out of that.

But, uh, I truly do believe that the more we are in connection. The happier we are. And so when we, we follow our authentic self, I think it's easier to come into connection. 'cause in, like we talked about earlier, right? The, the internal and the external, if you have that internal love. It's much easier to give it to other people.

And so if you're battling internally, like, you know, like maybe in my younger years, like, oh God, I'm queer and I want multiple relationships. I'm so wrong. I'm so wrong, I'm so wrong. How are you supposed to extend love to other people when internally you're going through this whole battle of self-judgment?

Right? And so the more you can step into love and authentic expression of yourself, I think it's much easier to give that to other people. And so that individual opportunity to come into alignment, I think is also a collective opportunity. And the more that we allow that space for ourselves, the more we allow it for other people.

I do think that we're gonna start dancing more in harmony in, in my belief. And so I'm so grateful when people like you do come onto the show to speak about the journey, to speak about the messiness, the vulnerability, the lessons that come through that, and, and the acknowledgement that. It's only just the beginning.

Right? There's still so much more.

[01:32:44] Jezebel: There's still so much more to do. I know It never ends. And that's, that is just the excitement of all of this.

[01:32:52] Dr. Nicole: Of course, of course.

[01:32:54] Jezebel: Is the, is that thrill of what's next. Of course. What else can we do? Totally. What, you know, especially, especially right at this moment with our world and so much turmoil Yeah.

And our society, and it feels like a battle to the death. But if it's a battle to the death, then what I wanna see die is that division and hatred and fear. And what I want to see survive is love and interconnection and experience of community and how we can support one another. If we have to battle, let's battle for that.

[01:33:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:33:41] Jezebel: Mm-hmm.

[01:33:42] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, Jezebel, I wanna check in and see if there's anything else you wanna share with the listeners. I know you shared so much wisdom, otherwise I have a closing question for us.

[01:33:56] Jezebel: Okay. Um, I want to share, I want everybody to encourage everybody to just open up and consume as much knowledge and information as you can of all of the amazing people who are doing so much work

[01:34:16] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[01:34:16] Jezebel: Around dismantling our limitations and seek them out. Read their books. Yeah. Listen to their podcasts. Talk with them. Be out, be loud, be proud.

[01:34:31] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:34:31] Jezebel: And to keep love in your hearts and joy in your mind and move forward.

[01:34:38] Dr. Nicole: Mm Oh, so beautifully said. Yes. All right. Yeah. So good. Well, as we come towards the end of our time, I'll take a deep breath with you.

Mm-hmm.

And the last question that I ask every guest on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:35:06] Jezebel: I wish people knew that it was more normal to love and abundance than it is to be closed off and frightened of loving. Our natural state is to want and desire and need connection.

I hope that through our global community, through our global connection, through our world, that we can understand that you deserve to be loved. You deserve to be celebrated, and you deserve to be supported by other people who are in the same situation. And maybe there's some nuances that make us a little different, but you're not alone.

Yeah, you're not isolated and you. Can experience love, even if it's just loving yourself. Yeah. And who you are.

[01:36:30] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:36:31] Jezebel: It's an infinite loop and there's no end to it.

[01:36:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm mm So beautifully said, and I'm, I'm so grateful that you were able to embody that by coming onto the show and sharing that love with all the listeners, inviting them into that space, into that open heart.

Right. You did such a beautiful job at that today. Thank you. Thank you.

[01:36:55] Jezebel: I, I really appreciate the honor and the privilege. It's to be on your show. So much fun. Oh my goodness. And to enjoy this. To enter this space with you. Mm-hmm. Thank you so much for the time and platform.

[01:37:13] Dr. Nicole: Of course, of course. Truly, I, I couldn't do this part of the show, the series without people like you who trust me to come onto the show and to share their wisdom and to be so vulnerable, so truly, thank you.

[01:37:25] Jezebel: You're welcome. Very welcome.

[01:37:29] Dr. Nicole: If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast, and head on over to modern anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I wanna thank you for tuning in, and I will see you all next week.