249. Relationship Anarchist: Stephen Symington

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Stephen join us for another relationship anarchy research conversation. Together we talk about finding security in community, slowing down intimacy and anarchist calisthenics. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you. Pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday.

My name is Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, author of the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and Founder of The Pleasure Practice, where I support individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships. Dear listener, you know, every single relationship Anarchy episode has been so, so special to make for you and with you.

All of you who have submitted your answers to these questions, these questions that started with my dissertation research, many. Years ago. I have so much gratitude to be in community with you and for all of the learning that we have done with these research conversations, and this is going to be the last Relationship Anarchy episode.

It has been so meaningful to create this special, special series of the podcast with you. For the last two years, I have learned so much, truly, so much with every single one of you that have come on the show, all of the submissions, all of the wisdom that we have co-created in this space together. And of course, with the grief of something also comes life, right?

One door closes and another opens, and I want you to know that I will continue to bring relationship anarchists onto the show, and we will continue to explore in less structured ways what the practice of relationship anarchy means. And I am so, so, so, so excited to continue that journey with you, dear listener, and so grateful that you're here and sharing these episodes with your community.

So thank you for being a part of this special series and for tuning into the last relationship anarchist episode.

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Keeping this content free and accessible to all people. So thank you. And with that dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode,

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And so the first question that I ask each guest is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:05:10] Stephen: My name's Stephen. I've been, I don't know, trying to practice relationship anarchy for like 10 years or so. It's been pretty nice. I am, uh, a software developer live on Vancouver Island remote work. Um, I don't know.

A lot of my life has been prioritizing that management of late. Work life balance and like being able to invest in the things that I wanna spend my time doing. And I'm feeling feeling pretty good about where I'm at right now. I'm enjoying life. Obviously some stressors come up, but it's been pretty, um, pretty stable for the last while.

[00:05:51] Dr. Nicole: Amazing.

[00:05:51] Stephen: Except for, you know, any politics you're paying attention to.

[00:05:54] Dr. Nicole: Right, right, right, right. I hear that. I hear that.

[00:05:57] Stephen: Personal life though. Pretty good.

[00:05:59] Dr. Nicole: Good, good. Well, welcome to the show. It's a joy to have you here today and get to talk about relationship anarchy and your practice.

[00:06:08] Stephen: It's a pleasure to be here.

Yeah. I'm loving your, your cat going on right now. I know. They look very friendly. Yeah.

[00:06:15] Dr. Nicole: I told you I was like, the second we start, she's gonna come in and command the space. So I, I always joke, it's just immediately Yeah, I know. I always joke that she's the co-host of the podcast, so I'll respect a fat cat.

[00:06:27] Stephen: What's her name?

[00:06:28] Dr. Nicole: Fat Cat.

[00:06:30] Stephen: Fat cat.

[00:06:31] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she's rather petite. So it was, it started as a joke and then a joke that stuck, so.

[00:06:36] Stephen: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:37] Dr. Nicole: She lives into it with power. Awesome. Okay. Well, so the first question that I'm gonna ask you is, what is relationship anarchy?

[00:06:48] Stephen: I mean, my interpretation of it is just like the custom built relationship one, where you go into a relationship, you try not to set expectations for the other people unless you've all agreed to them, and you just try to meet each other where you're at, and you know, take that relationship where it will go based on what everybody's looking for without, and like, I don't know, trying to be really on top of the stories or narratives that we fall into without.

Addressing them or thinking about them.

[00:07:21] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And you had said trying to practice relationship anarchy. I'm curious in that art of learning to examine expectations, get curious about them, communicate them, agree to them, all of that, your practice, what has that looked like for you in the last 10 years?

[00:07:44] Stephen: I started off like, I didn't really start. Dating, I guess, until I was about 24. And I started looking at like dating apps and like, I think I started with OkCupid and just answered a bunch of those questions and found that the people I ended up like matching against all generally ended up being polyamorous.

Mm. Mm-hmm. And like, so then I started looking into that a little bit more. And then from there I found the term aromantic, which I like, kind of identified with. And then from there, I think ran into relationship anarchy. And it's just like reading these things all like clicked and made sense the way that I think I've, um, navigated romantic relationships.

And like a big part of it is the focus on romantic versus friendship versus family. And like how it's never quite sat right with me. That, um, like the romantic relationships also always seem to get like that priority or that focus or that, um. I don't know. Yeah, I think priority is probably, probably the main word.

Mm-hmm. Just, and that's the narrative that I think has just followed mm-hmm. Um, normative approach to relationships. Mm-hmm. And so each, each kind of, each new term I learned kind of felt very like, um, comforting and like, oh, there's a community there, there's people that are navigating this as well. And then I ended up finding somebody who kind of was at the same place at me as me the whole way.

So we've kind of like moved along that

[00:09:20] Dr. Nicole: beautiful

[00:09:21] Stephen: together.

[00:09:21] Dr. Nicole: Beautiful.

[00:09:22] Stephen: And that's been like super helpful in being able to like. Deliberately practice those and try to like, break out of patterns that we're both kinda like, uh, yeah. I don't know how we feel about that. And like mm-hmm. Yeah. I think it's having somebody to practice that with along the entire way has been what has been able to make it feel like a practice.

It's always a bit more of a hurdle trying to jump into those things with new people. Mm-hmm. Like using the relationship smorgasbord sometimes when meeting new people to like, just try to get those awkward conversations outta the way Yeah. As soon as possible so that you've like established a kind of communication style or communication guideline that you can move forward with.

Mm-hmm. So it doesn't feel like a big thing to bring up every time, but it's definitely been the easiest as a practice with somebody else who's kind of like at the same place I am and has been practicing it as long as I have. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like is as invested in, um. Kind of like detecting those unsaid narratives and trying to, you know, is this actually something we want or is this something we're just going along with?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. How about you? Where's your, do you consider it a practice or is it more of a Yeah,

[00:10:43] Dr. Nicole: yeah. I, I do, I consider it a practice when I think about. The, for me, I view the heart of it being deconstructing the power structures that are internalized, that are impacting our ability to love freely.

And so when I think about that, there's so many systems in this world that to assume I will have deconstructed all of them, all of the systems of oppression is I think a faulty assumption. And so I think that. I will continue to go deeper down the rabbit hole, deeper down the spiral, right? In terms of awareness.

Ideally, hopefully, ideally getting more and more aware with that and showing up better for the people around me. So I don't think there's a final destination for that where you get to be like, I'm completely liberated from all the systems of oppression. Super cool. So in that sense, I do think it, of it as a practice, like you're saying, something that we get better at with time and something that it's also really beneficial to find other people who are practicing too.

Right? I, I remember during my internship, I was talking about my dissertation on relationship anarchy to some of the new interns that we're coming in, and one of the interns was like, can I ask a question? I was like, of course. You know. I'm talking about it. She's like, what's non-monogamy? I was like, whoa.

Like first off, how are you like a soon to be doctor in this program? But, but whatever. You know, this is Yes, yes. The systems and like thinking about like, how do I even start that conversation with her? What non-monogamy is, let alone more expansive ways of relating, let alone something like relationship anarchy that.

Quite literally tries to deconstruct the binary, even between the two. You know, I was just like, well, you know, so of course I, I hear what you're saying in the nuance of finding people who are way deeper into that practice, finding resonance and then actually growing together in that, because there is that shared understanding.

And so the space that you're able to traverse the, the exploration that you're able to do together so much deeper, um, of course beginner's mindset, I, I learned a lot by trying to explain to that person what non, non-monogamy is. So like, yes. And also, right, it's really important to find people who see you and understand you and get what you're going through.

[00:12:56] Stephen: Yeah. I mean, we've talked about it lately, but yeah. Trying to find new people. Mm-hmm. Where that feels accessible doesn't always feel the most, um, approachable. Mm-hmm. Um, and. Because it being a practice and like trying to break down those hierarchies, I think is one of those things. And like, so coming into it and almost coming in as somebody with more experience creates that hierarchy already and then like trying to navigate that with a new person when you're trying to like explicitly not engage in those things.

Um mm-hmm. I think is, yeah, it's just another one to navigate and interrogate and I think isn't always the most fun.

[00:13:45] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. How do you navigate that in your own practice? What are some of the things, the values that are important to you in those complex moments?

[00:13:55] Stephen: I think it's one that, you know, I don't have the best maybe structured approach with.

Mm-hmm. But it's. Yeah. Trying very much not to be like, this is the way you do this. Mm. Um, just like offering tools and kind of putting the other person in a position where they're choosing them without trying to like guide the whole process and then set yourself as that person that's like, I am in charge of how this is going.

'cause that's like the opposite of what I'm looking for.

[00:14:28] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, you know, when you sit back and really think about revolution in the first place and wanting to have more people adopt a way of expansive relating, the reality is that if you come at them and tell them what to do in the first place, like no one wants that, you know?

Yeah. No one likes that. That's not helpful. Um, and. The psychedelic space that I work in often gets very vitriolic about that. Like everybody should do psychedelics. Right? The non-monogamy space can be like that too. Everybody should be doing this, you know? And the relationship anarchist too can fall into that, which almost feels so antithetical to the practice, right, of removing power structures, as you're saying.

Yeah. And allowing each individual to really craft their own life and what is resonant with them. So I appreciate the nuance of what you're sharing in terms of saying, you know, like, Hey, this is what I do. I'm not gonna tell you what to do with your life. Like, this is what I do, these are some things I've experienced.

And then keeping the relationship mutually empowering, which means trusting that that other person is the expert on their life. Right. As especially as a therapist. That's something I'm always thinking about too, with the power dynamic of that, right? Is like, I have all this training, but like I'm not the expert on that life.

Yeah. I can give things, but. They're the expert. And so I think about that same sort of perspective when we meet people who are new to the practice. So like this, this delicate balance of acknowledging the wisdom that you do have in 10 years, and then also the wisdom of that new beginner, that beginner's mindset who's just seen it all too.

[00:15:59] Stephen: Yeah. Mm-hmm. And the, yeah, the navigating the, if it is something they're interested in and using you as a resource is almost like, like, I don't know. Again, you're put in a position where you're like biasing their learning, their, their process of like coming into it and it's, yeah. I don't know. Not wanting it to be like, this is how I take all of this and this is how I processed it and here's what I came up with and mm-hmm.

Yeah. And then putting them in like, this is the right way to do it, as opposed to, I guess. Having that space to watch them learn without really influencing. Mm-hmm. It super heavily, I think is, yeah, not, yeah, I don't know. Something that's hard to navigate and I'm not really, I don't really have an answer for it.

For the, like. Yeah. When you're talking about not trying to, um, engage that power dynamic to the same level while still being a resource, while wanting somebody to practice those practices with mm-hmm. Is, yeah.

[00:17:07] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. When I was in my first experience of NRE, there was no one that could have told me I was in that.

'cause I'm wickedly stubborn, you know? I was like, no, no, I'm not. I'm grounded. Don't know I'm grounded. You know what I mean? And so it's, it's hard because, uh, I did have community members who I think were trying to say like, Hey, like, just, just check in, you know? But it's hard when you're in it, you know, and the, the ego, the ways that we always want control and it's hard to take that feedback.

And so, at least for me, I found a lot of resonance in, um. Outside of a therapeutic container, like, Hey, this is just my life. You know, I, I trust you to live yours. And then when I am in a, the therapeutic container, trusting that that person knows what they wanna do and asking the questions that help them elicit that, right?

So rather than saying you're, I think if, if I could go back to my previous self and my community and NRE, it would be really effective. Rather than saying, Hey Nicole, you're in NRE, you're really fucking this up. It would be like, Hey, like what does NRE feel like to you? Right? Have you noticed, like, what are some of your own warning signs for yourself?

And like the curiosity of someone asking me that. And then I would probably slowly start to process it on my own, which is much more of what the ego likes, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Of like, I got to this answer by myself, you know? Um, and so that's kind of the nuance of how I handle that.

[00:18:28] Stephen: Yeah. That. If that makes sense.

Mm-hmm.

[00:18:32] Dr. Nicole: And so for you, you were talking a little bit about how you practice relationship anarchy, and the next question is very much so that, and so you talked about the ways in which platonic relationships are just as valuable as sexual and, and romantic relationships, deconstructing the relationship escalator.

You talked a little bit about the smorgasbord and getting to design your own relationships. How else do you practice relationship anarchy?

[00:19:02] Stephen: I mean, kind of similar to what you said earlier about like interrogating the way that, um, like power structures show up in the relationship. Um, interrogating ways that, um, I mean I guess there's probably a lot of, um, emotional navigation in there too, and trying to, I.

Navigate the feelings that arise around things compared to the maybe outcomes or the values that I'm trying to live, live into. Mm-hmm. So like when I think about having a relationship with somebody and like valuing the autonomy and the ability to, um, live the life that they wanna live, and thinking about how sometimes when I'm interacting in relationships, is it coming from a place where I'm trying to support this person to live their, the life they wanna live and the best way they wanna live it?

Or how much of it is like attachment stuff, trying to be like, I need them to be this for me, or I am looking for this from them. And if they're not offering that to me, is that a problem for me or is this. Or if that's not something they wanna offer, um, how is that sitting with me such that, 'cause Yeah, I mean, I'm not looking to practice relationships in a way that is making somebody compromise, um, the life they want to live to satisfy what I'm looking for.

Mm-hmm. Like, yeah, ideally everything's mutual, but, you know, sometimes feelings don't always align with those values. And I think it's a matter of like working through, you know, discomfort sometimes to, I guess learn that those values are approachable and that you can find safety in those things. And I mean, having a safe person to relate with and like have those conversations with and know that they're like care for you and are looking at for you while you're navigating those is super important.

Yeah. But yeah.

[00:21:10] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:21:11] Stephen: I think that's a big one.

[00:21:13] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. The mutuality of relationships, that's a huge piece of the manifesto. And something that, again, a lifelong practice of what does it mean to come to relationships in that mutuality, that mutual pleasure and joy, as well as the commitment that you make in that.

Um, which can include days of pain and frustration and anger, of course, 'cause we're all humans. Uh, but that mutuality of choosing one another and choosing the ways that you're relating with them, and so. I think that often the narrative of what we've grown up in, particularly in our western context, more recently, not lifelong, right, but more recently with the romance myth in the last, you know, 200, 300 years, um, is the lineage of property and the passing of that property through marriage and the ownership of women and the ways in which that sort of lifelong path of a legal system got translated into romance.

And the ways that we are still feeling like the only way to be a good partner is to go until the deathbed, right? That very traditional relationship escalator and. There are obviously people who really thrive in that and find a lot of joy and benefit, and that's so beautiful. And also the reality is there's a lot of people that are in situations where it's no longer mutual and they feel obligated to stay in these dynamics because anything other than that would be wrong morally unethical, even for some folks, right?

And so we find these spaces where there's a lack of mutuality and then often a lot of suffering. And then also if we get beyond the ethical, moral. Things of divorce and all of that. You know, there are also so many folks that ha then have a scarcity mindset of what is on the other side. If I were to find more mutually, you know, fulfilling relationships, could I ever find mutually fulfilling relationships?

And I think it's been really beautiful to see how the more you, you find those relationships, the more sort of trust you can have of the abundance of those sorts of connections. And therefore you don't hold onto one too tightly. You, you ideally build a circle of beautiful people that support you, right?

And so that mutuality, I think, is a bit more free flowing when you have multiple connections that can support you in that. And, and the transition from a one emotional resource into that big circle is a pretty big journey for most folks to traverse in our current hyper individualistic, capitalistic health space.

You know, like wow.

[00:23:58] Stephen: Yeah, absolutely. And that, I think that definitely plays into like stepping away from the romantic primacy too, or like building a circle like that becomes way more difficult too if you're expecting all of those people to be romantic partners instead of like reliable friends, reliable family members.

Reliable community members. Yeah.

[00:24:21] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that's one of the biggest things I saw in my dissertation is the frame shift for relationship anarchist is that it's not just the romance and the sex, which is often the frame of monogamy, polyamory. Of course there are asexuals, a romantics who practice polyamory, but specifically relationship anarchy really goes with this frame of all relationships being important.

And so you're so right. We're not just looking for romance or sex to fulfill all of these needs. We're finding this within family, whether chosen or biological. Right. And the coworkers that you're in and the people that are in your community. And often I've heard folks speak to the way that that frame shift, you know, it.

It quite literally expands your heart to notice that you have more love around you rather than just looking for a one, A one, a one. You're like, wow, I have multiple ovarian orbits and proximities multiple people that care for me and are there for me. That's sort of grounding and, and love is really profound.

[00:25:27] Stephen: Yeah, I think I, I would agree. Yeah. Compared to the, like, I either have or don't have a romantic partner, so I either have or don't have support. Yeah.

[00:25:37] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. The paradigm of I'm single really hurts me. Every time I hear it, um, I, I hear where that person is at, and also it's just the reality is that the narratives we tell about ourselves create our life.

And so when you say, I'm single, I'm single, I'm single. Right? I don't have someone who's supporting me. That impacts the way you live that life and feel that right versus Wow, I'm supported with so many different people. And even if you don't have a quote unquote romantic or sexual relationship, I have this full community.

And so you walk around feeling much more resource and grounded. And so I'm always inviting people just to get curious about the language that we use. And as an anarchist, I'm sure you're aware of prefigurative language and the importance of getting really critical about the language that we use in these dynamics.

[00:26:30] Stephen: Yeah. Although pre configurative is not a word that I'm super familiar with.

[00:26:35] Dr. Nicole: Sure. Absolutely. Uh, it essentially, like my understanding of prefigurative language and politics is about using language and actions that take us into the world that we want to be in.

[00:26:50] Stephen: okay

[00:26:50] Dr. Nicole: so like the, the power of that to actually get us there.

Then other words possible. Yeah, that makes sense. Totally. It reminds me of the, uh, distinction between partner and friend that some relationship anarchist practice. I, I use lover, I like partner. I use lots of different words, but some people get really specific about you're smiling, you got a feeling story.

[00:27:10] Stephen: Oh, I just try to use people's names. Mm. Because like, yeah, trying to like,

[00:27:15] Dr. Nicole: yes.

[00:27:16] Stephen: Slot those boxes and like they are who they are to me, and it's like, yeah. You know, the whole label thing is helpful, but like, I don't know, sometimes it doesn't feel like it does a justice.

[00:27:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:27:28] Stephen: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:29] Dr. Nicole: Because sometimes when we use those labels, they end up becoming boxes, right?

Yeah. That come with expectations that. Permeate the way we end up showing up in that relationship. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:27:42] Stephen: But yeah, so definitely very much on board with the choosing your language matters, you know?

[00:27:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so for you, why do you practice relationship anarchy? Why is this important to you?

[00:27:54] Stephen: Like there's a couple, I guess, influences that I feel are pretty relevant. Yeah. Like things about like the course, course construct of your own identity being like you build them on like different pillars of your identity and like. If you don't have enough pillars, if one of those pillars is like questioned or whatever, that's where your ego gets defensive.

That's where you step in and like start trying to protect yourself. Mm-hmm. And I feel like that applies to a lot of, you know, different aspects of how you build your life, including the relationships that you have in it, such that your, you are creating so much more intensity around your specific relationships when it become, when it's the only pillar, your, like social or community or, um, like life is based on.

So if that relationship then comes into like conflict or it doesn't feel as safe anymore, your entire life is now put into a place where it doesn't feel safe anymore. Whereas if you have those multiple pillars, multiple structures, to like provide that stability if you have one that's kind of like a bit shaky at the moment.

It doesn't completely destabilize you in the same way. Um, and it because you're not as destabilized, it's a lot easier to come to that shaky relationship and approach it from a, like, calm or more collected place and work it out instead of coming at it with like, all this energy that's like, this needs to work out or I'm in trouble.

Mm-hmm. Um, so just like how important it is to have those, that base of support and community just to even support every individual relationship you have so that you can show up to it in a way that's like, I wanna support this relationship in a way it needs to be supported not from a place of life or death.

Mm. Where certain outcomes need to happen to, um, for you to be okay. Right, because then, yeah, I don't know. I think that's when you get into the like behavior where you need to control the other person and need to like dictate how they're living for you to be okay. Mm-hmm. And that's like the antithesis of what I'm trying, when you're trying to like relate authentically with people, you're, you want to relate with who they are and not who they are to meet you.

[00:30:18] Dr. Nicole: Right. Right. Absolutely. Ideally, right? Ideally, the highest forms of love, right? To support that other person in their own spiritual individuation journey, right? And to come together in that rather than controlling is huge. And so. What I'm hearing you say is the importance of having multiple pillars, uh, multiple people in your circle.

I always talk about connection as a fundamental human resource and need, right? Food, water, love. Yeah. We are social beings. You cannot go through this life alone. Even in the most remote of remote of remote places, there's still people in that person's life. Connections to nature, animals, right? We're relational beings, and so we need emotional support.

And as we were talking about, you know, in this hyper individualistic, capitalistic world where so much of us are quite literally working jobs that keep us in the machine and not learning emotional skills and relational skills, ooh, um, then we only end up having quote unquote, one. Romantic partner in this paradigm, right?

And then that becomes our whole source of our identity, because that's the one space that we can be authentic, we can be loved, we can be seen, we can be vulnerable, all of that. And so it is devastating to folks when that is that relationship ruptures. It is whole world catastrophe because we're taking away food, water, love, right?

Mm-hmm. And so I, I hear you in the importance of building more pillars, building more circles, more people, so that way the resources of love can flow into you. And that way you have more resilience to withstand the inevitability of change, you know? But are these people we love could disappear. They could by that mean die.

And that's a real reality that we live with every day. And so the more resources that you have, the more grounded and resilient you can be. And, and I think that. If we're thinking about it as a resource, right? If you, I've used this metaphor before, if you have one river of water and someone says, will you share that one partner you have, and that's your only river in a dry desert of patriarchy and capitalism, fuck no.

Am I gonna share that Wi River? I need all of that for myself. I'm not getting enough outside of this river source. Right? Versus having multiple and someone says, can I have some of that? Right? Not that we ever own, but again, in the paradigms we feel that way. Um, and so when you have multiple, it's less of a threat to your nervous system needs of support.

And so that, that transition into more pillars, into more community, I find to be the most important part of the practice and to relieve a lot of suffering in that transition.

[00:33:05] Stephen: Yeah. I think in, I guess like anarchist spaces or just like, I think. Maybe leftist spaces too. It like the, the conversation becomes a lot about like how structures influence behavior and when you, you are thinking about, um, like how to structure your life or your relationships to influence the behaviors that you have in those relationships.

Um, so like a yeah. Trying to like set up relationships and, you know, safety and how you navigate life in such a way that the structure that you've, you know, tried to structure your lifestyle and pushes you towards decisions that you wanna be making. Mm-hmm. Instead of every day having to make that decision to, um, not do something or do something that's against your values and having to Yeah.

Make that decision over and over again. Mm-hmm. Instead of that being set up to be the default decision. Mm-hmm. And I think, um. When thinking about like, structures of, yeah, like monogamy and marriage and stuff. Those ones are like, they don't have to be comp like complicated or necessarily oppressive, but like the structure is.

So if you're not making that decision to not be oppressive around it, like every day you're just gonna fall back into that pattern where you're not necessarily, um, you might be like fighting against your, your values or fighting to live up, up to your values every day instead of trying to like mm-hmm.

Structure your lifestyle and. Um, which I mean is obviously limited given we live in a capitalist patriarchy, hellscape. Um, but I guess relationship anarchy is part of the, I have some amount of control over my personal relational landscape, even if I don't have it over the political or economic landscape.

Mm-hmm. So it's kinda like the one place where we do have enough power to like change the structures that we exist within. Yes. To try and influence our own decisions and make it easier to live up to values instead of Yeah. Putting ourselves in a place where you have to. Decide every day to live up to that value.

Mm-hmm.

[00:35:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. The personal is the political. So it's a powerful space to really enact the politics and trust and the ripples of that. 'cause as you were saying, so many of these systems are, are outside of our control, but this is a space where we do have a lot of autonomy to be able to choose to do the work, hence practice, right.

Lifelong practice. And so taking accountability and reflecting on that, and I feel confident in saying today, at least in this current consciousness, that some things that are oppressive, at least in my view, the concept of emotional cheating.

[00:36:05] Stephen: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:36:07] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Yeah, like I support, I support sexual fidelity. I support that. I find the concepts of emotional cheating, oppressive, the idea that you can't have any sort of emotional connection that's deep. With another person. And often that paradigm, I believe, is usually in the frame of someone of a different gender or the gender that you're attracted to, right?

By saying that you can't have, that feels very oppressive. Um, if someone's consciously choosing that, I guess that's their choice. And I'm not gonna say I know more than that person. However, just sitting where I'm at feels oppressive as much as the same frames of like purity, right? That after you've had sex with one person, you're somehow broken or less than, which I feel like lacks a, a real trauma-informed lens to reality in this life.

And so I find those things out of that paradigm problematic. But the, yeah, the, the ability to practice sexual fidelity run in it, folks enjoy that. And I, I appreciate your nuance of saying that when you're consciously choosing that there's nothing wrong. But inherently we all need to do the work of deconstructing internalized mono normativity, all of us.

[00:37:25] Stephen: Yeah. And it's not easy. Yeah.

[00:37:31] Dr. Nicole: Hence the practice. Yeah. Hence the practice. Um, and so thinking about all of this, I'm curious, how does relationship anarchy then impact your practice of intimacy?

[00:37:45] Stephen: I feel like it lets me slow it down a lot in ways where, because the scarcity, like very trying to not act out of the scarcity mindset, get to lean into.

Maybe like that slowness and that enjoyment, like something I like to do at the start of relationships is like really slow down the like different escalations. 'cause you only really get to hit each point, like the first kiss, the first time you sleep together. The first like every little bit of it can be so rushed and you're like jumping sometimes past those things.

And it's just like really nice to be slow and like experience each kind of intimate escalation for like a little while before trying to move it to the next one because you don't get to go back, you don't get to re-experience that. Like those, like, I don't know, the butterflies or the excitement or like the anticipation I think is the big one.

Just the anti anticipation of the like next new thing. And if like mm-hmm. I'm trying to hit too many new things too fast. I feel like it's not savoring the experience and I, I don't know, that's something I, I like when I'm looking at a new relationship, especially like a, uh, romantic or sexually intimate one.

But, um, yeah, for friendships, finding somebody that wants to engage in like the, the vulnerable conversations of like, what are you looking for? And like navigating that weirdness of like, I don't know, laying out an expectation to a stranger and be like, but you know, we're working towards it. Like maybe it's something we want.

Maybe it's something we don't. Just like being open about what you potentially have open in your life. Mm-hmm. And like, I dunno, it can be a little, little awkward to dive into with somebody, but like. If you do and the conversation goes well, like it helps build that connection. It helps build that like trust with each other.

And then it gives you like expectations that you've set for each other that you can live up to, to like start building trust in that slow way and that deliberate way instead of, you know, having unsaid things where you're like, I'm trying to figure out if I can trust you or not. Um, by watching for unsaid expectations.

And then, you know, you don't trust, you like lose some trust because they're not meeting things that they never, you know, agreed that they wanted to meet or, but yeah, finding people that are willing to engage that I find like the trust and the safety comes a lot more, not, not necessarily quickly mm-hmm.

But like stably or incrementally or like mm-hmm. Giving it a chance to like, feel like a safe relationship to lean into and be vulnerable and, yeah. Yeah.

[00:40:40] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. I've always joked that the sluttier I've got the slower I move because

[00:40:49] Stephen: Yeah.

[00:40:49] Dr. Nicole: There's a lot to gauge. Right. In terms of, like you were saying, safety vetting, you know, in the kink community it's very common to take that extremely slowly.

Yeah. And to not do intense edge play until you've done a lot of prep work with the person that you're playing with, and to really ensure that you are able to express your no. Both as a top or bottom, whatever you're doing. Right. But that you've gone through that work where you understand the limits, the boundaries, the capacity to say yes and no.

And the same thing happens in platonic relationships. There's people who you will offer them, you know, some sort of moment like, um, say a birthday invite for example. Oh, I'll be there. I'll totally be there. Great. They don't.

[00:41:37] Stephen: Yeah.

[00:41:38] Dr. Nicole: It's like, okay, the integrity of that word. Obviously people have life moments, you know, but hey, what about communicating that?

Also a thought, but you know, like the integrity of someone's word when they say like, oh, I'll show up. I'm so excited, I'm so ready to be there. And then just completely no shows for me. I would much rather someone say like, Hey, I don't have the capacity. I don't have the ability to show up right now, but like happy birthday.

And that for me feels like a really clear no. Where I'm like, wow, that's a friend I can trust. Absolutely. I actually really like that. Right.

[00:42:09] Stephen: Yeah. Having like a way to develop the trust. 'cause I, yeah, I feel like, um, the conversation of like, do you trust somebody? Do you not trust somebody and like, needing that safety and that trust, there's not always like a very well-defined way of like, you either trust somebody or you don't.

I feel like a almost an uncomfortable amount of it comes, like when you're meeting new people, it's like, I can trust this person because they haven't done anything to break that trust yet. As opposed to, I can trust this person because they've shown me that I can trust them in a bunch of small ways before I lean on them to trust them in a big way as opposed to, yeah.

They've never broken my trust before, so I can lean on them in a big way. Yeah.

[00:42:50] Dr. Nicole: We know that's not a safe way to play with kink. Yeah, absolutely. Lemme tell you, it's not a safe way to play platonically either. You know what I mean? Um, David Cooley, who had co-authored with Jessica Fern, the Polly Wise or Polly?

Yeah. Polly Wise. Uh, he had said that he recommends waiting to attach until you've gone through conflict with someone. Yeah. And I found that to be a really profound way of, you know, I think the reality is when you start to get closer to someone in orbit, orbit closer and proximity or frequency, there is some level of attachment that is going to come naturally.

But the awareness, as he's saying, of being conscious as much as possible to wait to place that attachment and that, uh, visioning of a life or whatever you're thinking and that, that way of relating until you've seen that person go through conflict. Because that's often when a lot of our. Unconscious difficult parts come up that you don't really see until you hit that moment.

And the reality is that conflict is an inevitable part of the human experience when you're in close proximity. 'cause we're humans and we're messy. And so we need to find people who can go through that with grace and, and growth minded perspectives is

[00:44:06] Stephen: uh, yeah, absolutely. Um, you say yeah, like when you're talking about preventing yourself from attaching in a certain way, do you have strategies for like, how you approach that and, uh, to like not build that attachment?

[00:44:20] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:44:20] Stephen: When you're somebody

[00:44:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I started it off as saying, Hey, when I was in NRE no one could have told me. Right?

[00:44:25] Stephen: Yeah.

[00:44:26] Dr. Nicole: Uh, um, yeah, looking back, I think some things that come to mind are. Slowing it down as much as possible because you know that when you get that really exciting connection, whatever it is, whatever type, you see them one day and you're like, I wanna see them tomorrow.

I wanna see them tomorrow. I wanna, uh, again, again, again, again, again. Right? So trying to slow that down as much as possible so that, that way there can be time for a body and your nervous system to, to ease. And then also doing the more mindfulness work of when you get excited, um, you know. Gosh, I remember making out with this beautiful human in the winter and I was like, wow, summer's gonna be so great.

We're gonna be on the beach together. It's gonna be so exciting. And that was a moment for myself of like, I just love summertime of summer baby, and my birthday's in August. You know, it's all there, but why is my brain already going to some future moment, three months, you know, down the line, you know?

Right. Five months down the line, six months down the line. Uh, 'cause it was winter. And, and, and that's a moment where I think we can get critical about like, what are we envisioning? So I, I don't wanna take away the joy of connection, right? We're like, wow, we could do so much. We, we could do so much. But having that level of critical awareness as much as we should with all desires, right?

Because all of our cravings are impacted by the system. So we gotta be critical about those. So honoring them and that critical reflection. I don't wanna take the joy of romance, the, the joy of connection, but just. Reflect, how far are you envisioning? Ouch. And then I think the tricky thing about that is depending on what frame you come from, that can be harder to do.

Because when I came from purity culture, having sex meant that I was going to have the rest of my life with that person. So it's been so much unlearning of like, oh, I'm crossing into romantic space. Got it. This is forever. Right, right, right.

[00:46:19] Stephen: Yeah.

[00:46:19] Dr. Nicole: No. Oh, oh, got it. So like I came from that frame, so there's so much more to watch how fast I go.

So kind of like check in with yourself. What are the scripts, the narratives, how far do you go? And then, and then trust yourself, like you were saying, the pillars. Make sure you keep leaning into those pillars. Ask them, am I, do I seem different? You know, like, do I seem grounded? You know,

[00:46:42] Stephen: and then learning how to trust that I think is like, because yeah, you can like, it's pretty easy to like reach out and be like.

Solicit that information from people you trust. Mm-hmm. Uh, it's a whole different thing to be like, okay, actually putting what they tell you into that, where it's like, yeah, you need to slow down. And it's like, okay, but I don't feel like I need to slow down, but like, don't tell me what to do. That's, that's why I asked you.

So like, and actually listening to them I think is like, yeah. Much more difficult than asking them, Hey, do I seem different? Am I like. Maybe going into this a little bit too hard. Yeah.

[00:47:20] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And sometimes you gotta go on that bender to learn the lesson, you know what I mean? We, if we think about connections, they're not just drugs in the brain, of course, but it does produce an unique neurochemical cocktail in the brain.

And so if you think about drugs, right? There are often some people who try that and then get really attracted to going and going and going. And then often hit a point where they drop and hit a wall and say, wow, I need to find a more stable relationship with this. And so for some people, that is gonna be their practice like, like myself, right?

Of going through deep NRE being completely shattered and then going, wow, I wish I was a bit more conscious of that and now I can be moving forward. Yeah. Um, yeah. Lessons learned on the journey, right? And,

[00:48:08] Stephen: um, do you have, like, when you talk about trying to move slow, do you have any like maybe structures you put or do you just feel it out depending on the relationship?

Like

[00:48:19] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, I feel like at this point I am really interested in starting with a friendship.

[00:48:25] Stephen: Yeah.

[00:48:25] Dr. Nicole: Yep. Can you show up consistently? Can you communicate, you know, are you gonna show up for the hangout we planned? Are you going to, uh, be there for support if something comes up? Right. Those sorts of basic things.

Can you play. Yeah. Can you play, can you play in our friendship and should those things be aligned slowly crossing into that, um, space. And especially with where I'm at now, so much of my interactions are deeply a webbed in community. And so it's not like I'm finding very, like, random intermixes of, of new novel people.

It's like a pretty established community. Like we share community spaces, right? Like a rock climbing gym or, um, therapist circles or psychedelic communities. And so the amount of layers and that, that has, I'm gonna be in those spaces for a long time,

[00:49:18] Stephen: right?

[00:49:18] Dr. Nicole: I'm going so slow. I'm not interested in any levels of chaos because I'm gonna have to sit there if that shit blows up.

You know what I mean? Like, there is no out of this. So I've got lots of time to take that one slowly, you know? Yeah.

[00:49:32] Stephen: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:34] Dr. Nicole: And I think, um. Part of the hierarchy conversation is the reality that there is gonna be that stratification of connections that we're close to right in this, this planet of 8 billion people.

I'm not gonna be close to every single one of 'em. There is gonna be a stratification of, because of the limitness of my humanness and time and energy of who's closer and who knows me more and all that sort of stuff. And I don't find that to be wrong. I find that an inevitable of the human experience and how I think we prevent some of the.

Complications of hierarchy is extremely clear, li uh, communication about our limitations. So hence like that birthday for a very simple, easy example. Hey, thanks for the invite. I'm feeling really saturated. I don't think I can make this. Rather than saying, Hey, I'll totally be there, but in reality I'm just gonna spend the rest of that is the time prioritizing other people.

I think that's where the hierarchy becomes dangerous and problematic, um, is when we're not able to name the, the limitations that we do have with our finite time and energy.

[00:50:37] Stephen: Yeah. And uh, that definitely being a practice as well. And like, I don't know, you like having a friend be able to tell you that I don't feel like coming 'cause I'm not there is like, there's also, there's a barrier to entry there too.

'cause like people generally don't. Come to you with that. Like I'll be there and then don't show up as like the first response. It's like, that's usually like a learned pattern where like that is the safest way for me to interact in these, you know, situations. But. Yeah. Not that it's like, I totally get you.

That's super frustrating and like trying to find, find that space between like, you know, I can only do so much to be like, I am welcome to this. I prefer this, please do this. Um, and like I get that maybe that's not your default, but like, I kind of need that. So,

[00:51:33] Dr. Nicole: right. Essentially the, like we were saying, the ability to say no a yes is just as valuable as the no.

And if someone can't say no in a kink saying, hell no. Am I playing with that? Hell no. Hell no. You know, and so, um, but you're right. I think that it is such a learned pattern of safety to, to people please upfront and then not deal with the consequences. Right. Or, or seemingly just let them pass by.

Especially in a digital age and era, you know,

[00:52:01] Stephen: the whole ask forgiveness, not permission thing applies to saying no sometimes too, I guess, you know?

[00:52:07] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, we're hitting on some of the difficulties, but I'm curious for you, what are the difficulties you've experienced with relationship anarchy?

[00:52:18] Stephen: I mean, it's still mismatches in expectations no matter which way. Like you can try to be as clear about them as possible. And like, I think it's especially when, um,

like navigating the things, like telling people that this is where you stand and this is how you, you know, act, behave, like, try to be consistent to those things. And like, I don't know, you still find people listening with their desire instead of their ears, I guess. Mm. Um, and like, not that I would, I obviously do that the same way too, where you like, try to, communication is as limited as communication is and you can be as explicit as you want and you still, um.

Run into like the, the gaps and like figuring out how to navigate those gaps, I guess is like a big part of the exercise. Mm-hmm. But, um, yeah, I guess trying to, the biggest ones has been like relational priority and being like pretty clear about where my priorities are and like how I'm gonna fall into something.

And then just running into a lot of things where I think people just expect it to change if I get to know them better. Yeah. And then when I'm consistent and I stay where I'm at, that then comes from being like, it's shifts from being great to being, oh, I care about you more than you care about me. And I've like hit that a couple times.

Yeah,

[00:53:49] Dr. Nicole: yeah, yeah.

[00:53:50] Stephen: It just doesn't feel like maybe as explicit as the communication is, it's not necessarily being received. And I think because relationship anarchy is trying to break outta those boxes, it's. Yeah, I guess probably the difference between like embodying knowledge and like technically understanding or intellectually understanding it where it's like, I understand you're saying these things, but I don't like recognize what it means with my body.

Where it's just like, yeah.

[00:54:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Hence the practice. Right? Always getting more skills. I think there is definitely a younger version of myself with one of my connections and he had expressed, you know, I, I really practice relationship anarchy and I have a deep community of folks that I love and I'm connected to.

And seeing each other once a week is really what fits within my world of possibilities and connection. Love, clear communication. Great. Wow. Uh, at the time, you know, my consciousness going, yeah, he's saying that now, but. If we fall in love, he's gonna wanna see me every day. Maybe we'd live together. Shit.

You know? Like, yeah. And like, where is my mind going? This person has very clearly said, their boundaries, their values, and my mind going, yeah, but if we go deeper, I'm gonna get 'em. And it's like, whoa.

Yeah. When people say who they are and what they want, why don't we listen to them?

[00:55:18] Stephen: And like, because it is hard. 'cause sometimes that does change and like sometimes of course you do decide you wanna live with somebody. Yeah,

[00:55:23] Dr. Nicole: totally.

[00:55:24] Stephen: It can't be necessary if you're not. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:55:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The thought I guess, of coercion there of, or like presuming that I'm going to change them, right.

I think that's the nuance of if, if you and the person that you're relating with change together and reach that space, that's very different than thinking I will change them or time will change them. And that's one of the key things in any sort of relationship we wanna be conscious of, of assuming that this other person's gonna change and that we're waiting for that change.

Yeah. Rather than being with what's right in front of you.

[00:55:56] Stephen: Uh, yeah, absolutely. That's where I don't know what percentage of resentment comes from. Exactly.

[00:56:03] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. And then the stubbornness, you know, some patterns here, the stubbornness of my, you know, young clinical psychology brain going, you know what?

Just one day a week, he's got an avoidant attachment. That's why he doesn't wanna see me more than one day a week. You know? Yeah. Which, if I, if I can speak to my younger self, it's like, and I probably wouldn't have listened, but hey Nicole, the internalization of all of the romance myth, the relationship escalator and the field of clinical psychology are creating a paradigm where you think health is this escalator.

And anything outside of that is quite literally pathology, which is what the school thought that you're being trained in. So like, I acknowledge where you're coming from and another world is possible of much more expansive ways of relating in a circle with multiple pillars.

[00:56:57] Stephen: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, other ways that it might be.

Hard is, I guess like when you talk about the slowing down, I often find I'm on the side of wanting things slower than a lot of people that I navigate things with. And then, yeah, I guess probably similarly comes into that coercion thing where it's like clear about it and then always having to be the one that again is like, no, like, no, like I'm looking for slowness and being like, even if they agree with it, always being put in that position of having to like reinforce that, um, that slowness instead of like being able to come at it together, I think.

Yeah.

[00:57:43] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. You know? Yeah. Which sometimes reminds me of the concepts of emotional blue balling. Yeah. The term that I've been using, you know, at moments that. We, we can recognize how if I said to you, Hey, I wanna go really slow with our sexual connection, and then you kept coming back to me and saying, Hey, let's go, let's go, let's, let's have sex.

Like wow. It's hurting that we're not having sex. Right? Right. I would say this is pretty problematic and emotionally coercive. However, we do a lot of the same in terms of attachment and emotionality of like more and more and more you've said no multiple times. More, more, more, more, more. And it's like, hey.

[00:58:21] Stephen: Yeah, that's a good, that's a good term. Uh, yeah. I wasn't emotional welling, but Yeah.

[00:58:27] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. 'cause some people will be like, it hurts that we're not connecting deeper. Why can't we see each other more? Please. It's hurting me so bad. I love you so much.

[00:58:34] Stephen: Yeah.

[00:58:35] Dr. Nicole: It's like, whoa. I think. Go ahead.

[00:58:39] Stephen: I was just gonna say, uh, kind of those difficulties in line with where you run into difficulties or is there other places you're like, you know?

[00:58:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, I think finding people who understand is really difficult. Um. Part of my dissertation was also about the way that providers can cause a lot of harm. I've been working with a, uh, couples therapist for one of my relationships who's from a polyamorous relationship anarchy lens. And the last session that we had has really been sitting with me and a like, deeply painful way that I plan to talk about in session tomorrow to try and go through some rupture and repair.

But so it's very front of mind for me right now of, um, there was a moment where I was in distress and I was talking to one of my lovers and I had said, Hey, I really wanna talk to you. And he didn't perceive that as being immediate, and so I felt kind of dropped in that, um, because he prioritized some other things.

But I, I re resourced, I reached out to other lovers and was able to get support there. And I was explaining to my therapist that I don't need my partner. I need a circle. I need my community. I need emotional support, but I want it from my partner. I don't need it from my partner. And her response was, I think because of queerness and all the other ways that your, your family has not been able to support you from their lack of emotional maturity, the ways that they've dropped you makes it hard to say that you need other people.

And I was like, I think that's a frame. But in for my lens, it's relationship anarchy. I'm saying I need the circle. Like that's actually what I'm saying. And so it's something that was really painful for me 'cause she like stuck to the interpretation and was like, I hear your relationship anarchy and I still think that because of your parents were struggling to say you need someone, right?

And I'm like, did did you miss the part where I quite literally said, I need a circle? Like, did you miss? Yeah. A specific

[01:00:29] Stephen: individual, but I do need people. Yeah.

[01:00:32] Dr. Nicole: And I think that's the heart of my dissertation right there of like, we see a moment where even someone can apply a poly frame like that, you know, like, hey, like you need your partner.

And I'm like, I, I, I wanna step more into the frame of what you're saying, multiple pillars. And when you're in multiple pillars, then you get to say, I want that connection. Mm-hmm.

[01:00:55] Stephen: Yeah. Uh, yeah, that absolutely. And yeah, need doesn't feel as weighted. Yeah.

[01:01:02] Dr. Nicole: Right. Because if you need that person, like you were saying, then we start beginning the coercion, right.

Of how you get. Yeah, exactly. Like you can't go do that with that other person 'cause I need you. I need you. Right. And so I think my, my, I, so I was trying to process it with some of my lovers in a circle and get more feedback. And I was like, what do you guys think about this? Like want versus a need distinction.

I think that if you guys were to die tomorrow, I'd be, you know, like, I'd be okay. I don't need you. And they're like, what Nicole? Like whatcha saying? I'm like, I'm like, of course I'd be sad you guys, of course. But I think this is an important distinction that like we all thrive in community and like we need the community.

Right. I'd be devastated if any of my partners died. And also I'd be okay.

[01:01:50] Stephen: Yeah. I guess that's like a define. Okay. Yeah, exactly.

[01:01:53] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. And define. Okay. Like I'd be crying. Absolutely. And you know what? I would need my community in that moment.

[01:01:59] Stephen: Yeah. And you, yeah. If because of the practice you'd have one that you could lean on, right?

Like yeah.

[01:02:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Exactly. So I think I find moments like that tricky where sometimes people, often people of power, a therapist, uh, can come in and say. You have an attachment issue because you won't do this way of relating or use this language or do that. And I find that to be very jarring. And again, I saw it in my research.

And so I think that, you know, so many of us are really coming up against these systems and having to say, Hey, I know another way is possible. I get what you're saying. But I know. And so I think that there's a lot of resonance in harmony when I share a space with another relationship, anarchist like you or all the other people who've been on the podcast before who see that.

And I think that's, you know, we heal in relationships. And so when we're seen in that way, I can at least take that deep breath and go, you're right. I'm not the only one facing this bullshit out there. You know what I mean?

[01:03:00] Stephen: Absolutely.

[01:03:02] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:03:03] Stephen: I guess that comes like the, the practice, practice not perfection.

Mm-hmm. Um, ideal of maybe like. The worst because relationship anarchy, we talk so much about how having various relationships is so crucial to wellbeing, but also the practice of relationship anarchy I feel like really cuts out a lot of like potential relationships because of the way you're looking to navigate those relationships.

So can be isolating in the same way where it's about like generating those connections and those safe communities, but because of the way it's practiced and maybe the ways it steps outside of like mono normativity and like other structures, it's also in a sense isolating you from a lot of relationships and like how do you like, do you like navigating that dichotomy of like a practice that is specifically about cultivating relationships?

Does a really good job of making a lot of them not available.

[01:04:15] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. How do I navigate that? Yeah. Oh, I cry about it. You know, like I cry about it all the time. You know, diving

[01:04:24] Stephen: deeper into it seems to like you're just gonna keep narrowing down that hole of what's an acceptable looking relationship.

Yeah. And that doesn't seem great either, though.

[01:04:33] Dr. Nicole: Well, yeah. Hell yeah. To raising standards like hell yeah. Hell yeah. Because you know what? You can have so many poor quality relationships, but the quantity is so high and that shit does not hit at the end of the day. You know, he had all those people who, who will, will.

Yeah. It just, we thrive off of quality rather than quantity, and so I would rather have a couple of really deep people who get it than a whole collective. Right. And so, um. The deeper you go into the practice of relationship anarchy there, there might, at least for myself, there is this space of acknowledging how deep the systems have impacted all of us.

And through that, some humility and at times lowering of expectations of the ways I can reach intimacy with these certain types of people. So I have some friends who are deeply monogamous and have not explored any. Critical exploration of any other way of being. Right? And so that is their way of, of existence.

And what I acknowledge is that these are not the people I can necessarily come to, to say, Hey, I'm having this conflict with my meta more about this and that of this agreement, all of this. Because often what happens is their reaction is, wow, I could never do that. And I'm like, okay, that's not really the what I need, but you know what I can do?

I can have a great camping weekend with them where we play at the beach. We can go to see a show together. We can laugh and watch a movie together. And so the types of intimacy I can get are still really fulfilling, but there are these areas where it is lacking. Um, but I, I kind of acknowledge those expectations.

And I think very similar with, with my family being Mormon and conservative, right? It's like, uh, lowering expectations and finding ways that feel mutually desirable to meet together, knowing that they're not going to meet me in these areas and. I think for a long time I was thinking that it's a sign of weakness if I don't come forward with all of my identities all the time, like politically, how could I be so weak to not be out there all the time with what I do?

And I think there's also a real reality that when you are going through these systems, it can be empowering to choose to protect yourself. So when I was at that internship site where that person didn't know what non-monogamy was, I didn't talk about my practice,

[01:06:48] Stephen: right?

[01:06:48] Dr. Nicole: It's all the research I did. I didn't say I was personally doing that because I was in conservative Indiana, and I didn't trust that that would go over well with my professional development in that space.

And that's not a lack of empowerment. The empowerment was the choice to keep that to myself and bring it into other spaces. But I could share a lunch with those people and find intimacy. So I think for me it's about the politics of seeing where someone's at. Adapting my expectations and knowing that the revolution is gonna happen collectively.

And so there's still ways I can relate to that person, um, and not, not create such a hard other rain where I'm not communicating with people who don't resonate. You know? Yeah. What do you do? Because that's, that's a personal individuation journey there for yourself. What do you do?

[01:07:32] Stephen: Yeah. I mean, sim similarly, like, it's the, I think it's, yeah, the depth of the relationship is, I think the, and like finding people where that depth feels safe from a place where like, because of the hierarchical nature of like maybe experience or whatever, it feels somewhat equal.

Like obviously never, it never, this is never gonna be perfectly right, but like, having both people trying to like get it there I think is more what I am navigating. Like, yeah. Having friends that don't practice it in the same way, I think is, I mean, you're, that's. We live in the world where that's the like Yeah.

And I wouldn't wanna give up those friends like, but in terms of, yeah, like the depth and the communication and the vulnerability and the understanding and the like meeting, that is definitely the few, few high quality like feel seen and try to offer that to them as well, I think is more yeah. The, um, style of relationship that I am.

Yeah. Referencing when you're like, when you try digging deeper and deeper and deeper and you're understanding kind of shifts and shifts and shifts. Yeah. And I think this applies to a lot of like, not just relationship ban ory, but whenever you get into like any type of like activism that calls for a certain like, understanding of oppressive systems and Yeah.

Where like you could, you can end up so far into it that your, your like stance on it isolates you from other people that have a very similar but not exactly the same stance and like, whether that has value anymore, like whether that in, in increased understanding and, um, differentiation stops providing the value that you're trying to get from the practice because it's now creating, I don't know, maybe like more irreparable connection, connected dis differences, I guess, and like mm-hmm.

I don't know, maybe that's where my head has been at a little bit lately, where like, because it is such a thing about creating community, entice knit community and like trying to offer and receive that kind of understanding. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Whether the intellectual, like continuous intellectualization and like need to go deeper doesn't then conflict with the practice, I guess.

[01:10:02] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I think about there's a lot of psychology identity models that speak exactly to what you're talking about, where, you know, there's the if especially minority identity models where. There's the majority culture, you step into the minority and then you have this immense period where you excommunicate anybody that doesn't share the same identity as you often for identity formation and protection, right?

Where you're like, I cannot communicate with anybody that doesn't do this. 'cause you're having to deal with so much backlash from the majority identity anyways. Um, and the, the model kind of moves to the next space, which is, it's not linear. We can go back forth up, down, sideways, and spiral all through it.

But there is a space of finding more security in who you are and therefore being able to go back into more majority spaces and feel grounded in who you are and not feeling so vitriolic. So I see a lot of that as safety making. And then also the, the more resilience that we get, which comes through.

Community. So the more connections that you get where you're able to be seen in that, the more tolerance you do have to go into those other spaces to potentially be unseen, to potentially slow down, to have a conversation with someone if they're receptive. Obviously we don't need to throw ourselves in the way of harm, you know, and what other people can say about the ways we practice.

You've gotta avoidant attachment style, you're fucked up, you're gross, whatever the, you know. So we don't have to put ourselves in the way of those bullets, of course, emotionally. But, um, there is a world where I think, do you think we need to have as political anarchist and understanding of why someone would be in that space in the first place and how the systems are all conspiring for us to not have these skills and how the systems literally thrive of us saying, I don't wanna talk to that person.

They don't get to talk to me.

[01:11:57] Stephen: Yeah.

[01:12:00] Dr. Nicole: A practice. Yeah. And so balancing this question out, I love to keep it, keep it even. So what are some of the joys that you've experienced with relationship anarchy?

[01:12:14] Stephen: I think the biggest one is just being like having relationships where we're like being authentic is the goal.

Almost being put in a position where if I know, if I'm like keeping something to myself or whatever for the sake of peace or whatever, then that's gonna be harmful and the other person's gonna find that harmful. Mm-hmm. And like navigating from a place where like authenticity is demanded or like means that I have a, a structure that's forcing me to try and be authentic and try to be honest about what I'm experiencing and like, feel supported in that journey from a place that's about me making it through the, the process in a way that's like best for me.

And like being able to trust that instead of, you know, having to wonder like. Is this an attempt to like, get me to behave in a certain way? Mm-hmm. And it also means I can show up and it, you know, feel loved for who I am and feel cared about for who I am. Mm-hmm. And provide that to other people in a way that feels authentic.

'cause I think it, it hasn't always been, there's been like the value versus practice thing where like, the value's always been like, I want you to live the life that you want to live, and I don't want you to be like, compromising that to cater to me before. It's like, yeah, being catered to would be nice, but like I have practicing enough, it's like seeing somebody catering to me is just, it feels wrong now.

Mm-hmm. And it doesn't feel nice and it feels like. If it's coming from a place where like that's what they wanna be doing in that moment, that's lovely. But if, you know, you can kind of sense when somebody's like, not really there, but they're doing it 'cause they think they should. Right. Instead of because they want to.

Mm-hmm. And like, I don't know, being able to trust that and feel that care. And also like having a framework for almost understanding where Yeah, like quality of relationship can be built. Like it kind of all gets mixed in together, like relationship anarchy as a practice. But it like really gets into like the navigating your own defensiveness, your own ego, your own preconceived notions of things.

And it's like forcing you to, I don't know, build more resilience in yourself, both with community but also with regulation skills and like mm-hmm. Understanding. You have to really understand what's important to you. You it like, it's not a lesson of like, this is what should be important to you. Like I think for the first 20 years of my life, like going to school, it was just like, oh, I got these grades in this class, which means I should go to this course in university and I don't really want to do those things in university, so I'll do that.

And just like following this path of like, this is what you're supposed to do with your life and this is what's gonna get until, and like relationship anarchy has been a way to be like, okay, no. What do I actually want? Yeah. I have to be able to name that. I can't just be like, well, I'm just avoiding discomfort.

Or like going with easiest thing because I don't know if you know what I want is accessible. It's like a practice of trying to make what I want accessible and like leaning into it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, just the like the friendships where I really lean more into that. The narrative of like, support and like trying to be them are like my favorite relationships or like, mm-hmm.

Favorite's probably not the best word, but like the ones where I feel the most seen and feel comfortable planning around and like, structuring life a little bit around, um, making those relationships easier to access and easier to, uh, lean into. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:16:18] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I really appreciate your mention of values.

That's something that's really important here, and the ways that they shifted over time, where now if someone's being inauthentic and maybe people pleasing or acquiescing to shoulds, it feels incongruent with your values in a way that almost feels like nails on a chalk. Sport or something that you can feel in your body as this doesn't feel right.

And I, I can definitely resonate with moments of wanting to support my lover's autonomy and them like saying they want to go do something, and I am just like shaking, you know, and being like, uh, like my values say I want to support you in this freedom. And I'm also having this reaction, but my values, like I'm working from values, you know?

Yeah. And so like, I'll, I'll usually say like, can you, can we co-regulate together? Can you help my body with me? Like, I need some breath, I need some snuggling, I need some affirmations. I need this. And I'm also gonna provide it for myself because I'm not a damsel in distress. Right? Yes. And interdependence.

Um, and so, uh, in those moments, it's so important to, to see the power of that, that we are not just animals and that we don't just go with our first response, and that we are able to have that reaction and then choose how we wanna show up based on our values. And as we've spoken to, unlearning systems of oppression is not comfortable.

And so there are gonna be moments if you want to do this practice, right? There are going to be moments where you will feel, uh, scared or afraid and choose to align with your values and stretch through that discomfort. And usually what I say is we don't wanna stretch to a point where you're completely dysregulated on the floor.

Like maybe I. Did for my first play party experience, where I was like so scared that my partner would go run off with somebody else, and I'm like crying before we leave to go in the car. You know, like maybe we could do a microdose and kind of work within our zone of tolerance. Um, and so, but the, but waiting for this to feel comfortable, I think you'll be waiting for a lifetime.

You'll be waiting quite literally for a different world, which is certainly not gonna happen in our lifetime. And so the politicalness of actually grounding in your values as, as guiding lights of how you wanna show up despite the body reaction, tending to it of course, but despite it is a really powerful part of the practice.

[01:18:40] Stephen: Yeah, absolutely. And it, it's like. Again, it's uncomfortable till it's not, where it's like you experience that discomfort enough times and you realize that there isn't actually the danger that you think is associated with it until, yeah. It's not only, uh, not uncomfortable anymore. It's actively uncomfortable if it's not happening.

[01:19:01] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm curious if you would've said that to your younger self, do you think you would've listened?

[01:19:08] Stephen: Um, I. No, I think, I feel like that's a lesson that everybody needs to learn. Like it's like the definition of embodying something right? Is like having that internal sense of this has changed for me, or like, I have a body sense that I have an understanding of this.

And like until you have that experience of recognizing like, uh, your body sense has changed about something, uh, yeah. I don't think it, you're gonna feel like that's possible to happen, um, unless you've experienced it yourself. But if you've experienced it yourself with one thing, I think it becomes a lot easier to believe that you can experience that with another thing.

And then, yeah, I guess it just becomes a, an exercise in what things are worth going through that discomfort for and. Yeah. Whether you have the resilience or the community to navigate that discomfort mm-hmm. At whatever time you're, you know, trying to navigate it.

[01:20:12] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I really appreciate that you had said it's an embodied experience, right?

One of safety that you get through essentially exposure therapy, right? Exposure to the stimulus, all the fears of fear, blah, blah, blah. And you realize there's still safety there, right? And so over time, finding more exposure and ability to withhold that, watch the narratives that start and stay grounded and that that's something you have to go through.

And like you said, if you've done that in one area, it often translates. And so in my research there was often people who, uh, were queer. That's a moment where you have to be able to withstand a lot of tolerance of internalized normativity. People who are kinky, people who are of minority identities, whether it be race or spirituality or ability, age, right?

Like the whole thing. When you've gone through that level of individuation from the systems and the majority thinking, you've already gone through a process of realizing, wow, there's a lot of bullshit out there and I'm not gonna internalize all of that and cleaning that out is actually uncomfortable, but I'm gonna do it 'cause it's for my betterment and all of that, right?

Um, there's a lot of listeners on the podcast who, who like me, who have come from purity culture, from fundamental Christianity. People talk about that, right? Once you've deconstructed that whole worldview, you go, what else?

[01:21:29] Stephen: Yeah. What else? Absolutely.

[01:21:30] Dr. Nicole: The tooth fairy isn't real. Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny too, you know, you get a little numb to that reality.

Sorry if I burned anyone's dreams of the Santa Claus today on the podcast. You know,

[01:21:43] Stephen: kids are listening.

[01:21:44] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, I know, right? Oh no. Uh, and so the next question is, what do you wish other people knew about relationship anarchy?

[01:21:55] Stephen: Probably just like how comfortable it is existing in like, some relationships where like, it's so not necessarily well divined 'cause like creating space for like mystery and like whatever is like really fun, but like having such a stable structure and like, even like that term of, um, what's the, the polyamory term where you're like watching somebody else and like enjoying it for like conversion?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Just like try like navigating past the sense of like dread that comes from like worrying about your needs if somebody else's are like maybe conflicting with it. I think just you opens up space for a lot more joy in your life because you're not just experiencing your own joy from a sense you're experiencing other people's joy from a place that's like supportive and like again, like you can feel it and it's not just a values thing, but it, yeah, it takes time to build that safety that like not necessarily their wellbeing or like them excelling is like gonna be detrimental to you in some way, or like there's, I think applies to like.

All your relationships, friendships, and otherwise, but like leaning into that ability to deliberately create safety and trust and connection in your relationships opens you up a lot more to like all the joy that all the people in your life are experiencing. Yeah. Instead of just your own, I guess.

[01:23:39] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely.

The fruits of the labor there, truly. Right. Yeah. I'm curious, is there any advice that you would share to your younger self who 10 years ago is just starting the journey?

[01:23:53] Stephen: Uh, I guess, well, I'm thinking about that. Yeah. What are your favorite parts of it? Like what's your, uh, like, you know, where's your joy come from

[01:24:02] Dr. Nicole: for relationship anarchy?

[01:24:04] Stephen: Yeah.

[01:24:07] Dr. Nicole: Um. Like you were saying, every day I feel like I'm stepping into deeper pleasure, both through the walking through the by walking through fire of jealousy and the moments where I've looked at people and said, they're better than me. They're doing something I can't do. Whatever that is. That doubt and self fear that came up.

And then to walk through the other side to reassure myself of who I am and the value that I bring to my connections. That muscle is really strong through the fire of walking through that and also the beautiful community that I have of people who really can express their yes and say their no. And the way that that has brought such safety in my own nervous system because I trust that the people will communicate with me and I trust that they will be there on the days that I'm.

Sobbing because the world is the world and life has thrown something at me and they'll also be there for the days of celebration. And that kind of resilience and groundedness and safety in who I am is something that is like, what else is more valuable in life? You know, at the end of the day, like I'm loved and I love and that.

You know, as well as the view of the political purpose that it brings into my life of why this is important and how much liberation. And sometimes I get really excited about how much liberation can happen and I feel way too responsible for it, which is not accurate. Um, but I wanna do so much and that I to sit back and like a future generations are gonna take this up.

I've got my chance, but future generations, I can't do it all. Um, but that purpose that it brings when I, when I am in community with people like you or other people who see it and see that another world is possible, and to know that even the, the freedom we have now of this current world is built on people who worked hard before us to get this sort of liberation.

Like I, I feel my place in the position of history to know that I'm gonna be a part of the freedom that future generations are gonna get to live into. And I'm benefiting from the people who came before me and that. That foundation and purpose connectivity is, is is my life force at the end of the day.

[01:26:17] Stephen: Yeah. Yeah. That's nice.

[01:26:19] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:26:21] Stephen: Yeah. The love, love and be loved.

[01:26:23] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:26:24] Stephen: Bigger and bigger ways. Yeah.

[01:26:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Keep stretching.

[01:26:28] Stephen: Um, yeah. Something I would tell myself, uh, 10 years ago Yeah. Is probably the, like that yeah. Discomfort is sometimes the point and the sooner you start addressing it, like the sooner you'll be past it and like, just waiting on it just means that five years down the road, you're gonna have to deal with it then and like, figure out what your values are and then live towards them and navigate the discomfort until it's small enough that it's not stopping you from doing what you wanna be doing.

[01:26:59] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[01:27:03] Stephen: Maybe. The, the notion, I, I don't know where I got like the, have you heard the term like an anarchist, calisthenics or whatever?

[01:27:12] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Like muscle building in terms of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:27:15] Stephen: Like break, break some rules so that when you need to break rules, you're comfortable breaking rules.

Mm-hmm. And just like, kind of applies to like the emotional thing too, where it's like, if this makes you uncomfortable but it's something you feel like you should be doing, maybe, maybe just the whole do it uncomfortable, but Yeah. Um, start small ways and I guess like what is, what is one of the small ways you can.

I don't know. Send, send friend messages to your friends telling you, telling them how much you love them. Yeah. And like, don't expect anything back. Just do it because you wanna share that. And I guess that's like a small way to lean into that discomfort of what trying to relate authentically as like, I guess.

Yeah,

[01:27:58] Dr. Nicole: yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I love that invitation to share more love and to, it sounds like always to remember that. We have the ability to become the person we want to become. I feel like so often, especially in the field of psychology, we go, well, what's the past? What's the past? Let's look at the past.

Like what does the past say? Who am I in the past? Right. And I think that is a valuable exploration because some of the, the sticky points that we get enraged about or upset about, sometimes they're valuable reasons of rage. 'cause the systems are fucked up and other times it's hitting into tender roots of our own journeys and relational pieces and it's hitting something.

So yeah, the past is valuable. And also, what about the future? Who do you want to become and can we trust that muscle? Like you said, the calisthenics, that you get to become that person. And it's not overnight, right? It's not like the athlete wakes up one day and says, cool, I'm gonna be a professional. Or the rider wakes up one day or the marathon runner, right?

It's like all these small things. Hence practice. Right. Uh, someone recently asked me, uh, on Monday, they were like, were you always super social for the podcast space? And I said, absolutely not. I was diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder and I was on an SSRI and I thought everyone hated me and so I.

To find my voice and language. You know, so many years into the practice, it wasn't like I just woke up and was like, cool, here I am. Everyone. It's like years and years and years of work. So when you see someone, you're like, wow, that person's an athlete. I could never do that. Whatever that thing is that you want, start building that muscle of working towards it and, and it's.

Practice. You know, I couldn't touch my toes in yoga for many years, and now my full hand is on the floor. That happens in small days. Little tiny adjustments, but it adds up over time. And so, yeah. Uh, I can hear that in your practice of relationship anarchy, the things that scares you at the beginning and are not the things that scare you today, you've built so much tolerance and resistance, um, and resilience in that to be able to go through these, these experiences that are outside of the norm and to build that other world through practice.

And I really appreciate that you, you grounded the beginning of the conversation in that and also the end truly of, of the beginner's mindset and knowing that growth is always a part of this. Okay.

[01:30:19] Stephen: Yeah. And how important it is to find people that it's safe to practice.

[01:30:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Can they say no?

[01:30:26] Stephen: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately. Yeah. Being a relationship practice, it's not really, it's like pretty hard to just be like, I'm gonna do this by myself. Like Right,

[01:30:38] Dr. Nicole: right. Exactly. Despite what All the self-help, self-help, lemme say it again. Self-help books say not community help books. You know what I mean? Uh, so, so yes.

It was such a joy to have you on the podcast today. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I wanna hold a little bit of space as we come towards the end of our time to take a deep breath with you.

And I'll check in and see if there's anything else that you wanna share with the listeners. Otherwise, I have a closing question I can ask you.

[01:31:13] Stephen: Um. I don't, yeah, I don't think so. Bian. Yeah. Like, I appreciate you mm-hmm. Doing the work you do, like having, yeah. Something to listen to that's like, yeah. Again, in line with these values that we're talking about is like super important and like definitely has probably influenced how I approach it and like mm-hmm.

Just seeing other people's perspectives of like why they do it and how they do it. Just open up more and more, kinda like paths of practice or like understanding or even interrogating like, huh. Is that why I do those things? Mm. If they've like shared some, yeah. Like development that they've gone through, but mm-hmm.

[01:31:58] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Well, thank you for that. It truly is a joy to be in this space and to learn with you, right? Learn with guests like you who come onto the show who, who trust me to have these conversations, who can be vulnerable about the things that you're learning in your journey. I truly would not be the person that I am today without every single one of the guests.

That have come on the show, who have challenged me, pushed me, um, asked deep critical questions and shared their own vulnerability. And so I'm really grateful when someone like you, another relationship anarchists, trust me, to come into this space and to share so vulnerably your own wisdom. And, and like you said, um, we grow together in that relationship.

Anarchy is not defined by the experts, it's defined by the collective. And so each day we're co crafting that understanding of the practice and what it means. And so I'm excited to keep learning and unlearning and learning again in that practice. Yeah. Alright, so the closing question that I have for you is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:33:05] Stephen: Emotions coming up or things coming up or like desires? Um, fears. None of that doesn't come up. Like it's, there's like the internal world, I don't think. Is like just a, like a light switch change or anything? I think it's just tools and understanding and repetition for safety that is like, helps feel it, not feel as big or as scary and like, again, the resilience.

So I, yeah, I guess it's like, I don't know, I don't feel like my mind isn't, like, has completely changed through this process or like anything don't come up. It's probably just the intensity of 'em and the way I respond to them. So I think jealousy comes up a lot where it's just like, it's normal to feel jealousy even when you're navigating a bunch of relationships that, um, you know, the purpose of them is to have other relationships.

That jealousy still exists. It's just mm-hmm. You, you know, it's important to pick the right person so that that learned response of jealousy stops being as big because there's not actually the. I don't know, abandonment or lack of care, or lack of love that is kind of assumed by. Mm-hmm. I mean, your body's response to it, so Yeah, probably.

Yeah. Feelings don't go away. Their intensity and the way you manage them changes, I think.

[01:34:32] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. I hear that. The invitation to our humanness. Yeah. Yeah. And I think a, a good pleasure practice embraces that. There'll be days of confusion, pain, isolation, suffering, joy, happiness, ecs, static, you know, feelings, all of that.

'cause that's what it means to be human. All of those ranges are possible. And like you said, there is that muscle building. Um, the person who has done hundreds of psychedelic trips sometimes gets an ego and says, I could never have a bad trip. And I always, uh, I'm there to say, you know, on the right set and setting, it's absolutely possible.

Right? And so I hear how with lots of practice, jealousy does not become as prominent or at minimum the things that one set us off. You know, are not as triggering. However, in the right set and setting anything is possible, jealousy is absolutely normal to experience. Uh, like justice jealousy, when Jessica Fern talks about that with unfair treatment, unfair treatment, which I whole other podcast, what is fairness when you get into it, right?

But like, these are normal human reactions. Jealousy is not a bad word. And you are always defined not by the reaction, but the actions you take afterwards, right? So have the reaction of jealousy and then choose how you wanna show up for yourself, for your community. That's what defines you. And, and again, as we said, we're always capable of change.

So continually remembering that in that process too.

[01:36:06] Stephen: Yeah. Yeah. And the, the normalization of like, your brain can think whatever it wants, like it's what you do and like what you Yeah. Decide to do with those thought, those thoughts. So it's not like, yeah, navigating is like, ah, yeah. I just don't have thoughts about how to like, blow everything up and like how to like be a, be like what I can do to like, take advantage of the situation.

Like it is just deciding not to do it and like acting on those values. Absolutely. Having any thoughts doesn't rule out, you know. Trying to navigate relationship anarchy or what or non-monogamy or whatever you're looking at doing with your relationship. Like thoughts or thoughts.

[01:36:52] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Such an important reminder to leave me and with all the listeners today 'cause it's really about our empowerment with that.

So I really appreciate that and and that invitation for all of us to hold onto that. Thanks for having me. Yeah. It was such a joy to have you on the podcast today. Thank you. Thank you for sharing so much of your wisdom and your vulnerability with me and all of the listeners. If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast and head on over to modern anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode.

I wanna thank you for tuning in, and I will see you all next week.