250. Jealousy Orgasms and Sexual Individuation with Dr. Joli Hamilton

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole. In today's episode we have Dr. Joli join us for our conversation. All about rewriting the narratives of sexual pleasure. Together we talk about the grief of an amazing dick, how mothers like good sex too, and the evolution of sex in long-term relationships. Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.

I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, author of the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and founder of The Pleasure Practice, where I support individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships.

Dear listen. Oh my goodness. This episode is so special. Dear listener, did you know that Dr. Joli is my mentor? I have learned so much from this woman, and I feel so grateful to be in community with her and to be sharing this episode with you, Dr. Jolie and I really get into the shattering of the Madonna and the whore complex because how outdated is that?

It's 2026, yell and mothers like to have pleasure filled sex. All right? And I am so grateful that Dr. Joli proclaimed that without a shuttering of the voice, but with complete erotic. Confidence, and that's what I hope you can feel as you listen to this episode. Dear Listener, we are rewriting the narratives of what is possible for sexual pleasure.

And gosh, I am just giddy at the fact that we are both doctors, Dr. Joli and I, and I'm like, you know, I'm an anarchist, so I have lots of thoughts about power structures and the ivory tower and the systems and all of that stuff. But man, under these systems, those titles are so powerful and so yeah. I hope you enjoy the powerhouse episode that this is with me and Dr. Joli Hamilton all about jealousy, orgasms, and sexual individuation. Ah. Alright, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and free resources@modernanarchypodcast.com, linked in the show notes below. And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters, you are supporting the long-term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible to all people.

So thank you. And with that dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode.

Dear listener, there's a space already waiting for you where you are invited to let go of every old script about sex and relationships, and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure, empowerment. And deep alignment. I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real trans. Formation possible, and I'll be right there with you, guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure and visit modern anarchy podcast.com/pleasure practice to apply.

So the first question I like to ask each guest is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:05:07] Dr. Joli: Hmm. Well, I I'm just a human.

[00:05:12] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:05:13] Dr. Joli: I'm, I'm a human who really likes relationships, not because they come easy at all. But because they've been really hard.

[00:05:26] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:05:26] Dr. Joli: And learning relating has been really hard for me.

And so, yeah. I mean, I went on to get a doctorate that let me study relationships. Yeah. 'cause it was so fucking hard.

[00:05:37] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:05:40] Dr. Joli: And I think, yeah. The other thing that I, I would describe myself as is, um, includes my, my mothering and that's beyond, um, so I have, I raised seven children, but my mothering as in like that enters into all of my work.

Yeah. Um, I have this big mother archetype energy and it's kind of a lot as now my children are grown and I'm like, okay, what does that look like in my life?

[00:06:08] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:06:09] Dr. Joli: So. Depth, psychologist, scholar, jealousy, aficionado.

[00:06:14] Dr. Nicole: Mm mm mm. Juicy. Juicy. Yes. So excited to have you here today. Thank you for joining me and all of the listeners.

I'm super glad to be here with you. Yeah. Motherhood and polyamory. We'll have to get into, oh my God, Don. And the horror complex. So you gotta go there. We gotta go there. So serious. Yeah. So serious. Oh, but before we do, you are one of the first guests on the show, way back four and a half, five years ago.

When this comes out, I'm curious for you, what sort of changes have you experienced in your sex and relationship life in the last five years?

[00:06:53] Dr. Joli: Well, what a wild time to ask that, right? Yeah. Right. 'cause if we go back, then things were very quiet for me.

[00:07:00] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:01] Dr. Joli: In, in the whole pandemic, bubbled uptime, and then.

We got vaccinated and we got some really, like really strong consent going on in my local area. Like people were really talking about that. So 2021 was like a let's be out and date everyone. And I went through a bit of a collectible phase. Yeah. And here we are zipping forward and you know, I am, I feel like my relational energy has shifted quite a lot into a, there's like this low gear mm-hmm.

Where I'm like, yep, I'm doing less things slower, but everything feels better.

[00:07:46] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:07:47] Dr. Joli: And, and one of the big things that happened was my anchor and nesting partnership went through like 18 months of disarray. Mm-hmm. Where we were still working together in the relational space we were writing together in the relational space.

Raising a family and we were really struggling and specifically around sex. Mm. Which was weird because that was like kind of the foundation stone of our life. Right. And then things got hard. And so we're, right now, we are about fi four months, five months healed from that. Mm-hmm. And I, using that term really lightly.

Sure. But, uh, so a lot of my relational energy over the last four or five months, really now I would say six or seven months has gone into, okay, are we gonna address this? Are we gonna, are we gonna deal with this? Because there were, there were all of these other things in our relationship that were worth persevering for.

We were never in any danger of like breaking up or deescalating, like as a whole. Sure. No, but. But what does it mean then? Like, what kind of relationship were we gonna have? Yeah. As sex became less and less a part of what we were doing, and it was less and less functional, and we, we, like, we really worked our way through, we did some really intense, um, self therapeutic moves

[00:09:10] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:09:11] Dr. Joli: And catalyzed a change. Mm-hmm. And I can happily say that now, right now, I'm the happiest I've ever been. Aw. Yeah. In that particular sexual partnership. Mm. And like, happy to get to say that. Yeah. And also like almost shocked because it would've been easier to, like, we, we both date. Yeah. We like, we, we both have other connections.

It would've been easier to just say, well this doesn't work, so let us just redesign, we'll reimagine the relationship. And I'm a big fan of reimagining, so I kept actually saying to him that like, it's okay if we reimagine this with the core of it being. Non-sexual friendship. I can do anything with you.

[00:09:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:09:55] Dr. Joli: Like I can do anything.

[00:09:56] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:09:57] Dr. Joli: And he kept coming back to, I don't, I, I don't wanna do that. But also we are running up against this big problem. Yeah. And polyamory especially the, like, we definitely do it way over toward the, the relationship anarchy, um, sort of mode.

[00:10:16] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:17] Dr. Joli: But we have this big family Right.

And we have a house together. Mm-hmm. So there's all this passing privilege. So not like nobody knows when we're struggling unless we tell them. Sure. So also it was kind of hard to feel supported from the outside because everything looked fine. Yeah. So a lot's changed through a lot of efforting. Mm-hmm. A lot of effort.

A lot of like, what are we gonna do here?

[00:10:43] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Ugh. Well, I'm so glad that you're in a better space as of today. Yes, me too. Me too. And I appreciate the vulnerability because I think when we are talking about pedestals, right? Yeah. People who work in this field and the way they look to them, people on the podcast have come on and said, oh, you make it look so easy.

And I was like, I have not told you how many times I've cried. If that's the case. Yes. So let me remind you again, cried Yes. Shaking on the floor, right? Like, like, what is my life? You know? And so I appreciate that vulnerability of the struggle. And if you'd be willing, could you share more about what specifically you were struggling with in that sex life?

[00:11:26] Dr. Joli: Yeah, so, so my partner and I have, we've gone through a lot of different ways of relating. Mm-hmm. So this particular partnership was, was founded on, when I say had a foundation zone of sex. I mean, we have known each other literally my entire life. Mm-hmm. And there was nothing, like, nothing. We were friends.

I knew he existed there he was, until random nights we were out dancing with friends. We happened to wind up dancing together and fuck me. I had a numinous experience of like, this is a person I cannot look away from.

[00:12:03] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:12:04] Dr. Joli: There's, you know, it, and it could have been lust, but then it wasn't, yeah. It was so much bigger than that.

So the, the sexual energy was like deep, deep, deep. Right from this moment where everything, we had this big inflection point where we went from lifelong friends mm-hmm. To. Oh my God. We like, need to be intimately connected in multiple ways. Yeah. We, you know, built a life together after that. I, we were in a triad together for years then, um, that one of our partners left.

And then we've raised a family together. You know, we've gone through so many phases in that we've gone through, we lived 24 7 in a DS relationship for, oh God, eight and a half of our 16 years. Yeah. Wow. Um, together and in different dynamics. So we've had, we've both been d we've both been s and so we've had all these ways that our sex life has evolved.

And then something happened about eight, now it's about two years ago. Something started to happen that I didn't understand. Mm-hmm. And it was something that I, it was like a, this subtle decrease of sexual energy. Meanwhile. Like the rest of life was working. Well, we were both very intrigued by our bigger, our wider relational world.

But there was just something, and that manifested then in like lack of libido, I felt coming from him. Um, some erectile dysfunction stuff showing up in the bedroom that was new. Yeah. Like, okay, that's surprising. And we're both aging. Yeah. So, you know, like I, I was, I was like, okay, I'm in my later forties now.

He was in his later fifties now. So we're like, okay, what? Maybe this is just that. And then we started faltering around everything. Like the, the DS stuff started feeling really, like something felt wrong and right at the same time. So we were flopping around on that. Sure. And sex itself started to just become this.

Point of like, it was holding all of our argument energy. Mm. I I don't mind, I don't mind a good argument. Sure. Yeah. That's totally fine with me. I'm not conflict averse, so it, but when sex is holding all of that energy Mm, not good. Yeah. It was, it was a bad vibe and things started just like spread out and all of a sudden I'm noticing like, oh, we went from having sex five or six times a week to having sex two times a week to having sex one time a week to having sex every, whenever, whenever we could manage.

And it wasn't that we wouldn't try, but we would try and then we'd start fighting.

[00:14:54] Dr. Nicole: Oh,

[00:14:54] Dr. Joli: and there was all this energy and we, we had done one MDMA session way at the very, very beginning of all of that. And that I think felt like a breakthrough. 'cause it can feel like magic, right? Like in that moment.

[00:15:11] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:15:13] Dr. Joli: But we aren't, like, we, we didn't want to use that as like a crutch. Sure. Like, for too long. So we didn't lean into it again. And as the time started to lengthen out between when we would connect sexually, I had, I just had one of those moments I think many of us have in life where I thought, what is this relationship for really?

Because when I was 32, when I got into this relationship,

[00:15:41] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[00:15:42] Dr. Joli: Sex was very much one of the big things this relationship was for.

[00:15:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:48] Dr. Joli: So if it's not for that anymore, what is it for? And I think we, I don't know whether you see this, but I see people who fall into a, a binary place of like, like, so this relationship doesn't meet my sexual needs, then I need to go get it met elsewhere.

Right. I, that wasn't, I mean, I could have my sexual needs, I guess technically meant met elsewhere. I mean, I could also meet them myself. Yeah, yeah. I'm a great lover. Absolutely no problem. Right? Yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm. But that wasn't the thing. So there was about a year of this, which was me sort of banging my head against this thought that the problem was I wanted my sexual connection with him specifically.

Yeah. Which, you know, I feel like we can lose that a little bit in the discourse of like, well, you know, not one person can't meet all your needs and you gotta have, right. But I wanted this need to be, if not met by him, then I needed to understand that then what are we, how are we going to frame our intimacy?

Like what, what, what is going to fill this, this huge grief space that I'm feeling?

[00:17:01] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely.

[00:17:02] Dr. Joli: And. God, Nicole. It was just, it was really, really hard. I weird. Yeah. It was so hard. And it's not just about, 'cause it's not just about pleasure. It's not just about, it was, it was, it felt like everything. It felt, yeah.

I started to feel unseen. Sure. And unmet. And meanwhile we're doing, we work in the relational space, both of us. And like in that we were using the tools, but this gap of sex itself.

[00:17:32] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah.

[00:17:32] Dr. Joli: So everything else was going great. Right. Like, we're not fighting, we're handling like our life fantastically and emotional support.

Oh my God. Spectacular. So he's like, nailing it. Mm. And I'm like, yeah, but where's the good dick? Yeah. It's like, I can't even, like, this is a place I can be crass, right?

[00:17:53] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. On brand.

[00:17:55] Dr. Joli: Yep. I, I was like, this is what, this is part of what I want from you specifically. Yep. And I started to, to really. Just sort of ask over and over again, like, if you don't have that for me anymore, I need you to tell me.

[00:18:08] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:08] Dr. Joli: So that I can grieve it fully and move on. Mm. Like, I, I'm gonna need to grieve this and because I don't wanna lose you in the process. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But if I don't have this with you anymore, then I need a process. I need to be witnessed in this. I need to let it go. And I also needed to reimagine what DS Dynamics would look like.

Sure. Because that was clearly changing things and it, and, and that needed to be dealt with. So one of the things that we did was we actually formally ended all of our Ds play. Yeah. And that was, I think, a really pivotal moment. We formally ended Ds play, um, in, in any sort of 24 7 sense. Sure. Shifted to some, some a period of time with no scene play even.

Sure. Just like, no, we're gonna get down to like baseline and see what happens. And. He started seeking out his own, his own resourcing, like around like who did he need to talk to? How did he need to deal with this? Sure, all good. But honestly, I feel like in some, at some point it became, it's just the, it's the thing that happens when it enough pain has finally been brought forward and you're actually sitting there looking at the pain that's between you.

And we had a breakthrough moment where I was able to share fully like what this was for me. And he was able to share what it was for him.

And we're just sitting alone, like in this very room that I'm sitting in right now, just kind of sitting on the floor like, oh, let's. Let's do it different then. Hmm.

And from that moment, we just started rebuilding our sex life. Like Yeah. With each other as if we like starting from ground zero.

[00:19:57] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yep.

[00:19:58] Dr. Joli: Like all the way. And I feel like we had to go through a lot of pain to get there because I, I can do that. I do that all the time for other people. Sure. But it's so much easier to see other people, you know, you get that outsider's perspective and from inside of it, there was so much salvaging, there was so much clinging and grasping and trying to keep what was, and it didn't work.

Mm. We had to actually let it go.

[00:20:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:20:23] Dr. Joli: Let it get to, so we, we had no sex for seven weeks, I believe, was the period of time.

[00:20:31] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:32] Dr. Joli: Mm-hmm. And then started rebuilding from scratch. Mm-hmm. And it impacted every relationship I have. Of course. You know, now I'm like engaging in that process differently and reimagining and, yeah.

[00:20:47] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, it was a lot. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Each relationship impacts the next, right? It's not just in the silo of one relationship. Right. All of it impact the web. So how you show up in that one is gonna impact the rest. And I, I'm hearing just, yeah, the pain of that experience because just like we have identities, right?

The relationship itself has identity, right? Yes. And so if part of that identity is deeply within sex, right? It is painful. Who are we without this main core thread? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And I hear you in terms of like, I will stretch, we can reimagine, we can reorient, but there's also this real craving you had, and I appreciate the full body.

I need dick. That is so important, right? I know like in terms of female voices, one, yeah, I need this one. Right? Dang it.

[00:21:38] Dr. Joli: Right? Like what I wish. I wish it were simple. Mm-hmm. And, and at the time, at the time I said that, I think it was actually one of the most honest things I had ever said, because part of my professional ident identity had me kind of stuck.

I didn't wanna say it right. I didn't wanna say the thing. Especially as So he's aging

[00:21:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:21:58] Dr. Joli: He's going through a natural process of his own, like his body is doing different things. Yep. His sex life is being reimagined in his own head. He's experiencing it. So I didn't want to shame. Right. And I, and like that was so big that I also was feeling like, wait, so I don't know how to name the need I have.

I don't know how to name the want I have. And it was when we finally decided to try to strip off all of our identities and really just sit in the disgusting mess that it felt like

[00:22:30] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:22:31] Dr. Joli: That things shifted and. We, we were able to say, yeah, let's make this as if, as if we didn't know anything about how each other's bodies worked.

[00:22:42] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:22:43] Dr. Joli: And it's remarkable. Like things really are amazing. Like things, the reinvention is, oh, yep, I have what I want. He says he has what he wants with like the, it's the texture and tone of the sex that we're having is full again. Yeah. Like it, it matches it. Like it's, it's, right. But we've also got something new added, which is this that like a layer that I think a layer of maturity that could only be one through the, the pain and heartache of this, which is it'll be okay if things get broken.

Mm-hmm. We can start again from scratch. And I didn't know how much I needed that, but I actually feel so much calmer because I mean. Things are gonna change. Right, right. You know, we have, I have chronic pain. He has an autoimmune disease. Like, we don't know things, things could shift. Yeah. But it's also really nice to just be back to like multiple times a week.

Right. Really, really happy. Yeah. It's really, really good. Nice. I'm like, yes, yes. This is what, yes. And I, I cried just last night. I cried after sex, like in the, in the, oh. I'm just so, I'm so glad. And, and the, the unspent grief Mm. Of I thought this was gone. Mm. I thought that I wasn't gonna have this with you specifically again.

Yeah. And it's different with every person. It's so unique. Yes. That, yeah. So now, yeah, we're five months into, like, things are really, really good and they're still sort of Wow.

[00:24:25] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:24:25] Dr. Joli: Wow. I, I didn't know. So I'm, I feel more prepared for a future that includes, I don't even know what, yeah. I don't know what happens next.

[00:24:34] Dr. Nicole: Right. 'cause change is the only inevitable buckle up. Exactly. Here we go. Exactly. We're going, oh gosh, we're going, here we go. Exactly. Exactly. And I appreciate that distinction in the nuance of, um, so often in the community. Yeah. Just go get your needs met elsewhere. Go get your needs met elsewhere. Right.

And the reality of that being kind of cold to the, to the nuance that each sexual dynamic is different. And so that craving that you have is for that person. Right. Not just this act. Right. And so I think when we see that nuance, we're able to see more people as full souls and people, rather than just need fulfilling object machines.

[00:25:14] Dr. Joli: Yeah. That was so important to me. I. And I had, I had felt it in the past. I had felt these times when, like, I traveled a lot for graduate school, I was gone, I was busy. And I remember saying to him like, Hey, you should just go, you know, just go get your needs met. I am so busy. And, and during that period of time, which is now about 10, yeah.

10 to five to 10 years ago, we, um, he was very adamant, like, I, I am getting my needs met and like, I don't feel sexually like burdened by you being away, but I miss you. Mm-hmm. And that was sort of the sentence that I didn't know to say for a long time. So in this two year period of like mess, it was hard because we weren't physically missing each other, but we were physically missing each other.

Yeah. And no amount of other connection. No. Like, yeah. It's just, it, it isn't the same. Every bond is unique. Every play style is unique. Mm-hmm. And I, yeah. And I hear people say that, I hear my clients, they'll, they'll be going through their grieving, especially at the beginning. And sometimes the more like initiating partner, especially if they've been in an established relationship.

[00:26:30] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:30] Dr. Joli: I'll hear them more. The initiating partner often is like, they've found someone and so they're having these fun, juicy experiences. Sure. And I'll hear them say something and they don't know how cold it sounds like it's okay. Like you just go get your knees met elsewhere. I can't do it now, but like, it's gonna be fine.

Mm-hmm. And it's because they're in NRE. Mm-hmm. They're, they're not like, they're not attuned to this in that moment. Like they're, but but their their partner who's like, but it's not, this isn't just about wanting to rub one out. Right. I want you. Right. And, and I'm not, I just think the, the amount of grief that we have to accept as like part of the norm of relating.

Mm. Is, I think it's hard to, to deal with, but I'm, I'm also glad to have that language. Yes, yes. Because that's what I needed. It was, you know, as, as we started to make progress through our process, it was, oh yeah. What it is is grief. There's immense grief here.

[00:27:31] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:31] Dr. Joli: So I gotta deal with that. I can't pretend like it's not here.

[00:27:34] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so the strength, the muscles that are built through that weight that you were carrying and had to learn to lift. Right. I feel like that relates to a lot of my expansive relating, non-monogamy journey of just trying to find the words to understand what I'm feeling and then growing that muscle, which I'm now very proud of having.

I'm always developing humbly. Uh, but you kind of go through that fire to get that sort of strength and it is real fire.

[00:28:03] Dr. Joli: It's real. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and when you have a long-term relationship that has been through fires, and this, I think this is where I got cocky. Mm. Is we had been through some shit.

[00:28:14] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah.

[00:28:16] Dr. Joli: We had been, you know, we've been through multiple divorces, the breakup of triads. We've been like, we've gone through multiple deaths, like, like to the point, like a death in our home. Like we, like we have done some stuff. Yeah. Um. Yeah. So you can forget that. Yeah. But that, like, even that strong muscle isn't going to protect you from, I think there was some resistance in me 'cause I was like, but haven't I done enough?

Haven't we done enough?

[00:28:46] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:28:46] Dr. Joli: And then this felt so fixable. Mm. Right. Sex gets that feeling of like, well, let's just, let's just fix it. Right. Let's just like get a tweak. Right. Like, let's go get a, like we'll go get a chiropractic adjustment for our sex life. And I'm like a new toy.

[00:28:59] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:00] Dr. Joli: And, and it wasn't this one Yeah.

Was a, it was a full overhaul of the whole relational system and Yeah. Totally opening up to like, well, what if everything is different in our sex life? Mm-hmm. And that took courage to just like stand in it for a long time to be with it. Mm-hmm. Mm. I'm grateful. I am grateful. 'cause now I'm like, okay. Right.

This was a humbling lesson of the work will never be done. No. We are just doing it.

[00:29:35] Dr. Nicole: Right. This is life. Absolutely. This is what it means to be human and in relationship with another human, which means continually showing up and doing our best, and that spiral deeper and deeper, and we hit some of those same points, but maybe a little deeper.

Right. But it's still those same points on the circle, I think, for the rest of our lives. Truly.

[00:29:57] Dr. Joli: Absolutely. I mean, this is why, so when I'm describing, you know, non-monogamy or mm-hmm. Conscious relating really as a, an individuation journey. Yep. You know, it doesn't have to be, not everybody takes it on that way.

Mm-hmm. I see people who are like, I don't wanna think about the deeper layers. I just wanna play and have fun. I don't wanna dig, and I, heck, I've dated those people. Mm-hmm. That is one way to be in your life. And then another way is to be like really engaged. And it's exactly that, that spiral like path of I am gonna come back to my own junk over and over again.

Mm-hmm. And my partner's junk in those same spots and the like, the, the path will be different. It will be different, but it's, we're gonna come back to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is again. Um mm-hmm. But the opportunities in seeing it and framing it as like, yeah. And this is God, life as a journey is such an OA cliche metaphor, but, you know, it's, but like, if this is some kind of journey, then I, I, I'm glad it's messy enough to actually be moving me out in that spiral and not just like, oh, I'm just on a, just, I'm just a coin going around in a circle until I fall over.

Mm-hmm. I don't want that either. I wanna move, I wanna. I wanna go through new stuff too. Mm-hmm.

[00:31:19] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's a journey we don't have enough education on. We don't have enough examples of, and that's why I appreciate your vulnerability of bringing that into this space, because we need more people who can speak to this.

'cause we know how many people are suffering so many people. And it's also particularly an area where the voice is so restricted because of our societal context. And so naming the things you've already named in this podcast is extremely difficult for people to just say in a therapy session where there's confidentiality, let alone their friends.

Right. Or anyone else. Right? Yes. And so I appreciate that so much here today.

[00:31:59] Dr. Joli: Yeah. I, I think we do, we have to talk about it. I have a, a friend who's been, you know, going through her, her stuff and it's been painful to watch 'cause she has gone through. Truly like an individuation reckoning. Like really like, oh, I gotta torch some stuff.

I gotta go into the darkness. Yeah. I gotta go sit in it. Mm-hmm. I gotta just sit for like year, like, and watching her, her spouse partner, she has other people in her life, but her spouse

[00:32:30] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:32:31] Dr. Joli: Rejecting the idea.

[00:32:32] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:32] Dr. Joli: We do. No, we just, we do not, we don't have to do any of that. I'm gonna hold perfectly still.

[00:32:37] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:32:38] Dr. Joli: And the pain of watching them, you know, and, and being friends with them and watching and seeing like, these are two different ways to be in a life.

[00:32:46] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:32:47] Dr. Joli: And one is not right and one is not wrong, but they aren't very compatible with each other.

[00:32:52] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:32:54] Dr. Joli: And that holding still that energy of holding still is actually exhausting.

Yes. But, but it's, it feels like safety for some of us. And I, I watched my father hold still and like, oh. Yeah. And you can just sort of wait out your relationships. Yeah. And that's honestly the biggest thing that drives me is I'm like, I don't wanna wait out the, the pain. 'cause it's basically the sitting death.

I, I just don't want that. Yeah. So I'll, I'd rather go dance with the fire.

[00:33:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:27] Dr. Joli: Just like. And it's painful.

[00:33:29] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I've heard the metaphor of trying to hold onto a rock in a river where you're like, I'm staying still while the water is coming up in your face, up on your face. While I'm not moving, I'm secure, you know, I'm secure, I'm drowning, but I'm Exactly,

[00:33:45] Dr. Joli: I feel very good about this right now.

[00:33:46] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly. But you know, our human mind, it's like no change, no change, no change. Please don't, it's like Absolutely. We need to break it to you, but

[00:33:54] Dr. Joli: Yeah. Yeah. Like the desire, the desire to resist is still there. Yeah. And that's why I, I, I have been. I, as I share this story, it is, it does feel vulnerable, but mm-hmm.

It was 18 months of like, the hard part. And it feels like, like if I were gonna tell the pretty version of this, right? Yeah. It would be faster. Yeah. It would follow a clear path.

[00:34:17] Dr. Nicole: Don't we wish?

[00:34:17] Dr. Joli: Um, it like, but it just doesn't, and I, this wasn't for lack of tools, like during that whole time, we're using the tools.

We are in a dialogue. We're having therapeutic sessions. We're, we're doing a really good job of showing up with repair. And, uh, you know, I mean, the Jungian in me just says like, yep, this is clearly what our souls preferred at the time. Like, they, our souls seem to be like, yeah, y'all need to be fucked up about this for a while.

Mm. And our, our day-to-day life was like, no, I don't wanna. Mm-hmm. And we don't, you know, resisting it. Through inaction was not an option for me, but neither was it gonna work to try to rush through it. Yeah. And that would've been my preferred method. Oh, same, same. I would've loved that solution. Please, let's just do all the things.

Let's just go, we'll just do everything. Yeah. Couldn't do that either. Yeah. Had to actually be in the mess. Yeah. In the messy, like in the feted water together.

[00:35:24] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. One of my partnerships I was, we're deeply in kink, deeply erotic, so there, and we had some ruptures in that and I, I don't think we had sex for eight months.

Yep. We just had sex last night. You know? Yeah. The process of that we're like, maybe it's never coming back. Yeah. And that's okay. And that's okay. But we, like you had to strip and start from the very beginning. The very beginning. Yeah. Even though we had had years of intimacy together to start from a place of complete novelty as if we don't know each other and ask like, do you want this?

Right. Because you fall into those patterns of long term. Yeah. And so to start from that place again with, with curiosity was such a spark for us. And it's still something we're walking through for sure. Um, but like you said too, it gives me such confidence for our connection that we've walked through that fire and we've come out the other side, and so bring on some more, you know, like, I'm ready, you know?

[00:36:22] Dr. Joli: Yeah. I feel excited by this particular reality because one of the, because something in me really hangs on to now this, like, wow, that took a long time. Like, I, I think I've, I've done a better job than I have in the past of really marking like. Oh, that's, that was months and months of trouble. Yeah. And that makes me more confident.

'cause I, you know, when we talk about, you know, shifting a paradigm

[00:36:51] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:36:52] Dr. Joli: You know, I'm like, yeah. Years that takes years. Mm-hmm. But then it's not like it's done. And it's not like monogamy to non-monogamy was the only paradigm we were shifting. Mm. We, you know, we're also just growing in our individual ways and yeah.

I'm grateful to know that there's, um, something in me seem to make peace with the idea that this is going to take a long time. And it's frustrating because the older I get, the more I'm like aware of Yeah. But I don't have forever. Right, right, right. So those two things are at odds. But I think that's also the work of like Yeah.

And we, maybe this is the relationship right now. Hmm. It's like, so now I'm looking at that period of time and feel very aware, like something in us needed to be in that.

[00:37:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:48] Dr. Joli: Mm-hmm. And I, there's something beautiful in there, but it is really, really murky. It's,

[00:37:54] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[00:37:55] Dr. Joli: It's like it's muddy, right? To have to just be like.

I guess we needed that. Right?

[00:38:02] Dr. Nicole: Right. Absolutely. It's not just to fix it, but Totally. Yeah, totally. It reminds me of, you know, the concepts of spiritual bypassing, or maybe even we could say pleasure bypassing, you know, like, I just want the pleasure, you know, forgetting that pain. It's all a part of being human and it means you're really alive, but when you're in it, you're like, ah, what is this?

Right. Yeah. And so. I hear the nuance of, of the way that you, there was only through Right. The only way was through with this. Yeah. And so it's giving you so much insight into your relationships now. And you mentioned the word individuation. I think it'd be really important to dive more into that. I often talk on the podcast, the difference between codependency and interdependence.

Mm. Right. And, and we're not going all the way into, uh, hyper individualistic, which is so white western world. Um, but interdependence. Yes. So how do you see expansive relating? Radical relating, no monogamy connected to, uh, individuation.

[00:39:01] Dr. Joli: Yeah. So I use that term and I, I do, I kind of wish it had a different word.

Mm. But it comes straight out of Jungian psychology. Mm-hmm. Um, so, you know, which is a very white Western framework. Yeah. Right. Like, and it, it is, can't, can't take that out of it. Um. Mm-hmm. But the word itself, like when we really boil it down and also just get real and make it like this is the fineman description of it.

Like, can I explain it to a child? Yeah. It's the process of becoming more and more yourself over the course of your life. Mm-hmm. Your unique self.

[00:39:34] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:39:35] Dr. Joli: But it is unfortunate that it is so close to the word individualistic, because these are very, very different experiences. Individuation is me. Remembering, like sewing back onto myself, all the parts that I cut off from myself because somebody else needed me not to be this and not to be that, and to fit into this box and shedding all the stuff I've been play, acting and carrying and trying to force myself to be shedding all of that so that we can get down to authenticity.

Yeah. Another massively overused word, right? But when we get right down to it, an individuation journey is one where I keep finding ways to let go of what's not mine and remember what is mine. And some of those choices along the way might look individualistic, but they should never be in the service of individualism, right?

Mm-hmm. Individualism, right? That idea that I am first, yeah. I center me my, my needs are a priori to everyone else's. My wants need to come first. That is not it because the, the individuation has asked of so many of us to move into what is best for this collective. Mm-hmm. How do I show up for my community?

How do, how do I like, 'cause that's how I remember who I am. Yeah. So I become more me by being in relationship to others. But there is a bit, a bit, it's hard to keep yourself focused on, hey, I'm becoming more me. Yeah. By relating to other people who have needs and wants Yes. And are messy. Yes. So, yeah. I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be in it with them.

Yes. And I can't center me in a childish way. And it also requires us to, I. You know, the word differentiation comes in here, and differentiation is necessary to individuation. I need to be able to tell the difference between my own thoughts, feelings, and needs, and wants from my partners, from my friends, from my children's.

I need to be able to tell the difference. Very important and hard to keep track of. Right. Because we meld, we want that, that merging feeling. We wanna like lean in and just be like, Ooh, we can be ooey gooey together and there's no difference. And I'm just, but if I can't feel the space between, then I can't experience the eye vow relationship.

I can't really experience the sacred other. So we have to, at the very least, be able to do both. Right? Yeah. If I'm gonna experience melding, then I need to be able to also experience differentiation. But differentiation itself is just a, it's just a piece of an overall individuation experience. 'cause your individuation is gonna cover your whole life.

Mm-hmm. And it may also, in fact include merging.

[00:42:42] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:42:42] Dr. Joli: And, and being, and being in an unhealthy relationship. Unhealthy relationships, absolutely. A huge part of individuation. I was in a, a terribly abusive relationship.

[00:42:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:54] Dr. Joli: That in many ways served my individuation. If. I could zoom way out, if I could zoom way out and see it from the 50,000 foot view.

[00:43:03] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:04] Dr. Joli: I can't see that from inside.

[00:43:05] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:43:06] Dr. Joli: Inside, I'm just suffering and it feels horrible. Mm-hmm. So it's a meaning making framework. Yeah. For one thing, it neither prioritizes or privileges the individual above anyone else, but it also, we have to be careful not to accidentally act like suffering is somehow the point.

Mm-hmm. Because it's not,

[00:43:25] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[00:43:25] Dr. Joli: Right. Yeah. It's, it's easy to get th like sucked into those, right. I could, I could act like, oh, the abusive relationship that I was in, it was just bad and, but it's good that I was in it 'cause I, I suffered through it. No, not that it's, oh, I had to experience something getting really, really bad in order for me to learn my way out of it.

To find me out of it. Not to just go into the next box, but to find me.

[00:43:55] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:57] Dr. Joli: That's a hard thing to do, to find you rather than just find the next role you're gonna play.

[00:44:02] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And again, there's only through, right? Yeah. And so just like your relationship, you're saying the suffering brought that freedom, it brought that perspective, it brought that strength.

And as you were talking, I was looking at one of my Post-it notes, which is from the book in a Different Voice, which is a feminist psychology text. And it said the paradoxical truth of the human experience. We know ourselves as separate, only insofar as we live in connection with others. Mm-hmm. And that we experience relationship only far as we differentiate other from the self.

[00:44:38] Dr. Joli: Yes. That's it. Absolutely. So, um, who is that? It's Carol Gi Gilligan. Yes. Gi, right? Yes. It so bonus points for you. Hell yeah. Yeah. So young. Um, Jung has this great quote that is so overlooked, it's so vastly overlooked where he says one does not individuate alone on a mountain in a cave. Right. Even though Jungians love that hormetic shit.

Right. Um, one individuates in relationship. Mm-hmm. Because we need the differentiation. Yeah. We need it. It's necessary. And I love that quote that you just read because it's, um, yeah. What an anchor point into the Yes and

[00:45:20] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:45:21] Dr. Joli: Because I, I need both, right. I need to be able to feel me in order to feel you, and I need to feel you in order to feel me.

Right. And that's really hard. Personally, I find that hard to hold onto, not just in my romantic relationships. I have, I have all these children, the youngest is now 18, and I, I feel how like, oh, as each has aged, I have had to not just allow, but encourage their differentiation while also still like. Being this core tie for them.

Yeah. Being a human's freaking hard. Absolutely. It's, it's hard.

[00:45:56] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. The journey there. Especially as a mother. Right. And I also, I wanna be able to talk about that with the Madonna and the horror complex because I think that polyamory walk straight through that. Um, but before we get to that, also just thinking about.

Um, even at breakfast recently, I was with two of my partners and talking about the moments where I get really dysregulated and upset. And it's funny in the individuation journey to have two of your partners look at you and be like, oh yeah, I've seen you like that, Nicole. You get like, and you're like, oh, shit.

Okay. Well, getting lots of feedback from the group. Got it, got it. Yeah. It's the best kind of

[00:46:29] Dr. Joli: triangle possible, I think. Yeah, right. Like there's a lot of messy triangles. The best triangle is the one where you're like, okay, well I guess I have verification.

[00:46:39] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly. I I, I'm always fine. Yeah. I'm always like jokingly like, start a union.

Start a union, guys. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Please bring your complaints to the board. Yeah, exactly. Uh, yeah, yeah. But it's such a process too. Again, so the Madonna and the whore, I'm curious how you feel about that journey because there's an event coming up where the mothers of both of my male partners will be at, and I'm like, oh my God.

Wow. What kind of shame this is bringing up about my two like mothers on both sides meeting and seeing that in a very real reality. I'm like, whoa. You know? So I'm curious, like, how have you, especially as a mother, walked through that fire?

[00:47:18] Dr. Joli: Yeah, I, you know, when I first went from mono to, was what I was term it at the time mm-hmm.

When I made that shift, my youngest child was still on the breast. Like he was two years old. I had been breastfeeding for 11 years straight. Yeah. Um, 'cause I'd had so many children and, um, yeah. Which is, you know, that was a life choice. I was a child, I didn't know what I was doing. Um, but. It meant that I was stepping into this and I, so when I, I shifted, I came out like the Kool-Aid man.

Mm. I was like right through the, right through the wall. Yeah. Oh yeah. And I love that. So everybody knew. Yeah. So here, I'm, I have all these children around me who I am like raising, and I'm like the Capital M mother. Mm-hmm. I'm doing all the things. Everyone saw my identity fully as mother. That's it. Like that there wasn't Jolie.

Yeah. There was just this mom person. Yeah. And, and I was young, so I, like, I, I got, I had pregnant for the first time when I was 22. So this is, you know, I'm just, I'm young enough that I didn't even have any experience before that to draw on to say, sure. Okay. So here's the thing. It's polyamory for me, and Yeah, it is about the sex.

Yes. Like, yeah. Absolutely. We were talking about how we wanted a bigger family to raise, you know, more adults to raise our children. Yes. We want a community. I also wanted the sex, I wanted a femme lover. Yeah. I wanted to engage with this beautiful numinous feeling that I had fallen, like fallen for someone who I never imagined I wanted it.

Yep. And I wanted it between my legs. Yes. Hell yeah. Wanted it. And the pressure, the back pressure that I received was entirely about being a mother. Yep. It was about, but mothers can't but you. But, but, but the children, I think it was actually helpful in its way because that kind of back pressure in the face of, I literally just came out and I told everybody, like, I didn't do the hiding thing.

I never,

[00:49:24] Dr. Nicole: yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:49:24] Dr. Joli: I just like was telling people what I found out is. That they all wanted me to have a shitty sex life for the rest of my life. You're cross to bear. Yeah. And that gave me, yeah. I was like, okay, you pissed me off right there. I am. I was really angry. So it gave me a lot of energy. I, I had never heard of the Madonna Horror Complex.

Mm. But when it came like right there and it was placed on me, my response was, oh, I peeled it off of me. And I held it up and I was like, oh, I think this is yours. Thank you. So I immediately beca took what I had been doing in the rest of my life and didn't even realize I was doing, I'd been doing sex education for years.

Yeah. And didn't know that that's what I was, I didn't have a label around it, but I'd been doing it as a doula. I've been doing it as some mentor. I've been doing it because I can't ever shut up about sex. Mm. And, yep. So I was like, oh, okay. So we're not going to pretend that this is about something else.

So I just started saying all the quiet words out loud. Yeah. I found it to be a really great protection device. Mm. Because everybody wanted it to stop, so they started embracing my, my non-monogamy real fast. Yeah. Because they would, they would, they were more comfortable with that than me talking about.

Yes, yes. Mothers like to have good sex too. Do they? They do. Unless, except the, except the ones who don't and they don't have to. Mm-hmm. That's fine. It's so, yeah. I mean, it makes me angry to think back on how, how shaming it was. There was another thing that happened back then, which was, I ha I was asked to carry, like, all of the energy of you are breaking up marriages.

Oh. Because I was, you know, at the center of this. Like, but were my male partners ever asked to hold that? Not once.

[00:51:16] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:17] Dr. Joli: No one ever put it on them. No one ever said. Anything about what they were doing was somehow sexually deviant or wrong. Mm-hmm. And, you know, this was 2009. It's just not that long. Like it's, it's a long time ago.

It's also not like, hello? Right. Like, I was shocked. I was shocked. And I realize now I shouldn't have been. But now as I talk about it, I always remind people like how much we're not saying about our sex life and what that does. Mm-hmm. So it also led me to be a very, like, verbally clear parent around sex and sexuality.

I'm like, oh, we are not, we are not hiding from any of this. Mm-hmm. Um, 'cause look at the mess it made. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:52:06] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think this is where titles are very political, right? And so watching the ego, but this is where I like to be like, yes, doctor, yes, yes. Tell me how much you needed that.

Yes. Use that political power for good, you know?

[00:52:22] Dr. Joli: Mm-hmm. Oh, there was, when I, I remember signing on to get my doctorate, and I, I went, and then I, I took a short hiatus right after I started because I, I panicked. I was like, oh my God, I cannot do this. Yeah. And homeschool these children, right. And run my bus.

I like, I can't do all these things. Right. And total panic. And I went into like a full blown depression. And how I came out of it, Nicole, was I want the letters. Yeah, I want the letters. Because the story that I am telling that everybody thinks is so shallow is just like, oh, it, it's crass, or we shouldn't talk about it.

Watch what happens. And you know what? I was right. Yeah. 'cause the second I had those three initials after my name, the story was interpreted differently. Mm-hmm. And that is infuriating. Oh yeah. It's so screwed up. Mm-hmm. Um, so now I shout it louder. Yeah. And it's, it is really interesting to see, I mean, I guessed on a lot of podcasts.

It's really interesting to see when I have a host who basically thinks that they've invited me on to shock jock me. Like they, they wanna poke. I'm like, yeah, but remember. And then they, they then they remember my title and then we cycle back. And that is, you're right. It's the right leveraging of that power.

And also, I mean, my doctoral research was on jealousy. I know on purpose. Yeah. So people's primary argument against non-monogamy, I'm like. I already doctored my way out of that.

[00:53:49] Dr. Nicole: I absolutely, we already did that. We're okay. Hell yes. We're doctor. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's why I went through with such, you know, like power to get, I got straight A's and mine.

I was like, yeah, you're not, you're not. There's no doubt here.

[00:54:03] Dr. Joli: There'll be no wiggle room.

[00:54:04] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely not. With psychedelics and non-monogamy, no wiggle room. Absolutely not. We're we're going straight through that one. Mm-hmm. And so I think it's important, especially when we look at the historical context, because we know that the Madonna and the whore isn't an accident.

Right. We know that this is a product of white, a lot of Christianity. Yes. And the colonization and the genocide of that that is here in America. Because there are cultures around the world where women have multiple partners. There are cultures around the world where sex is an inherent part of the spirituality.

And then we have this bullshit where women can be sexual other than for reproductive, which is their one job. And then we know historically that men were expected to have multiple sexual partners outside of the property lineage that their wife was. That is a. Historical fact. It's just fact. Nice. Thick toes on that.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, right. And so that's my dissertation. Right. I'm like, it's right there. You know? It's right there. But I didn't know that, you know, until I did it, you know?

[00:55:06] Dr. Joli: No, I remember coming out as non-monogamous and, and being shocked to see that it was the women, it was the women who were so mad. It was the internalized patriarchal system.

It was the, the terror that if I suggested that I, that it was, it was something in me that I needed, not just sex, but satisfying, glorious, delicious, amazing sex so bad that I was willing to throw my life into the wood chipper and remake it from scratch.

[00:55:39] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:55:39] Dr. Joli: If that was true for me, then somebody might think it was true for them, and wait, they might find out that it's true for them too, and we can't have that.

Oh no. The men did not ask me to be quiet. Even half as many times as women did. Mm-hmm. And that was really hard to face. I, I did not expect it. It was my female friends. Right. That I lost. Right. Right. It was, and, and I say female very specifically. It was, this was a very like, mom centric world. Mm-hmm. Right.

Cisgender. We didn't, we didn't like, we weren't even sure. Like there was nothing outside of the box. Yep. Which was also the beautiful part because once I, once I busted out of it, there was like so much more room to live. Yeah. So much more room to question everything. So once I deconstructed monogamy, then there was more room to deconstruct all the other stuff.

'cause if you break any of them, right? Mm-hmm. You know this, you break any of them and everything else starts to shatter. Right. I never, I never expected, I did not expect the women to be the one who were like, the crabs in the crab bucket pull me back in. Right. It was really painful.

[00:56:47] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

And we can understand that like you're saying now with the 500 yards away context, right. Of even epigenetics. Right. The things that we're afraid of. I always get afraid to talk about this research because of the context. We don't exactly know how it translates to humans, but the, I'm sure you know the research with the cherry blossoms or you know, for the listener, it was the first generation that was conditioned to have a negative stimulus with the cherry blossom.

And then multiple generations afterwards that were bred, that didn't have any exposure to the stimulus, were afraid. Right? Yeah. So if you think about how, you know, my mother's eggs were formed when she's what? Like what, four months in the utero or something? In the uterine? Yeah. Like yeah, it's like 16, 17 weeks.

Yeah. Right. So the body carrying my eggs is my grandmother.

[00:57:37] Dr. Joli: Yes.

[00:57:38] Dr. Nicole: Now what was she

[00:57:39] Dr. Joli: and my grandmother, right? Yeah, of course. And my grandmother was conceived in the Depression, in the Great Depression herself. So her like, like the lineage. When I think about the lineage of trauma and the lineage of protective, like whatever it takes, you tie yourself to someone Yep.

To be safe. I don't actually have to look much further than that to be like, yep, I get it. Yep. I get why the terror is there.

[00:58:06] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:58:07] Dr. Joli: Um, and it was when I was confronted with the, no, don't be that. And certainly if you are gonna be, if you're gonna do something deviant, then don't make it about sex.

[00:58:24] Dr. Nicole: mmmmm yeah.

[00:58:24] Dr. Joli: Like say it's about anything else.

Yep. Um, even one of my partners at the time, she was struggling deeply and really needed us to have a cover story that was basically just about like community.

And just want, just wanting community and couldn't, like, we couldn't talk about anything else. And that was months and months of pain. 'cause I was like, why are we gonna perpetuate the story?

Yeah. Why are we, and this is something that we like. How do you work that out? Because your, your story, your presentation, how you talk to the world, I mean, I see this now with people I date. Even today, some people are just not, they're not good candidates for dating me. Mm-hmm. Not because we don't find each other hot.

Not because we don't get along. Awesome. Right. Because they don't wanna be seen with somebody who's this out in the world. Yeah. It's a lot. I'm like, it's a lot. I'm like, yeah, you're right. It is a lot to stand next to someone who's not willing to shrink in the face of being told we don't do that here.

Mm-hmm. Or we don't talk about sex, or we don't, we don't, we don't. Yeah.

[00:59:34] Dr. Nicole: Right. And in my journey with meeting other people who feel that way, it often comes out as like this, um, when it's coming at me, and I guess when I've experienced it towards other people too, is fear. And then we say, yeah, I don't like that person.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't like them. I don't know what's going on. My body feels weird. 'cause we're so uncomfortable with that level of Yes. And so attack, attack, attack.

[00:59:57] Dr. Joli: Yeah. And without that ability to just really be with, oh, I'm not ready. Yeah. I am not ready to be this out. I've had people even attack it. Even, even just my presence as a public figure.

[01:00:07] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:00:08] Dr. Joli: As a non-monogamous public figure. Like, well, there's like a defensiveness that can come up around the, the need to present as monogamous, even if we're practicing non-monogamy. And I'm like, I, I get it. There are real, like, like bad stuff has happened to some people and I get it. It also, we all need to work on our own timeframes and it's hard to be out here.

You know, like on like forefront and every time I meet somebody who is also out mm-hmm. I'm like, oh, it's very comforting to remember. Yeah. I'm not actually alone in that part.

[01:00:45] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:00:46] Dr. Joli: Because I know it's gonna take most people a very long time to reckon with, and in the meantime receiving that like, oh, I just don't like them.

Mm. Is it that, or are you, are you afraid that someone might, I mean, the same thing happened when I got divorced. Mm. Got divorced. You get divorced and all of a sudden people are like, oh, we can't look at that. Yeah. Because if I look too closely at something that I could see, I could also catch a glimpse in a mirror.

Mm-hmm. It's terrifying. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's, I think, con the consciousness of the relating, it's not really the non-monogamy, it's the, oh, you're looking right at your relationship and not flinching.

[01:01:25] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I'll keep holding the rock in the river. You, you, you're floating downstream. I'll keep holding, you know?

Exactly. Yes.

[01:01:31] Dr. Joli: I, I stay right here.

[01:01:33] Dr. Nicole: I'm fine. This water on my nose, it's no problem. It's no problem. Why are you floating? How? Uh, but it's, it's so true. And I think that some days I can tap into this like powerful Lilith archetype. Mm-hmm. Some sort of radical feminist, and I'm like, hell yeah. I do this. I'm fierce and I'm bold and I'm shattering the binary.

And other days you are. Wow. Everyone hates me. I swear everyone. Oh no. Oh no. Why am I so public? Oh, I can't go back. Oh, there's so many years of the podcast out now. Oh, no. You know, it's yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[01:02:10] Dr. Joli: Yeah, it was for me, it was standing on the red dot on the TEDx stage. Sure. I was like, oh, I don't own that.

You did it. You did it. Yeah. And when I did that, I was like, I don't own that video. I could try to scrub everything else, but I don't get to own that. I, I had like a full blown nervous breakdown.

[01:02:25] Dr. Nicole: Sure, dude. Yeah.

[01:02:26] Dr. Joli: Like the, like the night before going, like, do I say this? Like, do I actually say it or do I stand there behind my doctor and like, and like say, this is the study I did and my research participant do I, do I use the shield or not?

And I decided not to use the shield Powerful. Mostly because I was like, I can't ever go through this again. I have to, I, I gotta draw a line in the sand. It's not for other people, it's for me. Yeah. I need to cross this line and say. There will be no more hiding. Um, and that was, you know, I was 10 years in

[01:02:56] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:02:57] Dr. Joli: Before I really, before something that felt irreversible. I like, oh, it's not mine. It's not mine. And now I am, I'm like, okay. Now I've talked about, you know, jealousy, orgasms, yeah. On podcasts. So, you know, like, yes.

[01:03:11] Dr. Nicole: Fine. It's fine. Absolutely. It's fine. Absolutely. Absolutely. It makes me emotional protection and the loudness.

Yeah. And it, it makes me emotional just to like f feel that power of you standing there. My gratitude for you for doing that as someone who is older than me, to stand for that as a possibility of what kind of embodiment I can even step in more into when I think about my male partner's mother's meeting.

Right. And the shame that that's bringing up for me, despite the fact that they're both like, yes, we get this, but something about invisibility of them all meeting in one space. I'm like, no, no. Yeah. You know, it's like, what is that?

[01:03:49] Dr. Joli: Well, I think there are so many, there are actually a lot of, um, thresholds.

There are like, yes, we could think of them as rites of passage and I, one of the big rites of passage of non-monogamy is it's infin. Like you don't necessarily know when it's gonna happen, but it's when you're exposed to the. The multiplicity of like, wow, this, we can't pretend it's anything else. We have to actually just stand here all being with this.

Yeah. And um, it's awesome. I'm psyched for you. Yeah, totally.

[01:04:20] Dr. Nicole: I'm sure I'm gonna have a great orgasm afterwards. You know, I'm gonna be like, yes, I'm accepted. You know, it's gonna be great. Yeah.

[01:04:27] Dr. Joli: It's gonna be amazing.

[01:04:28] Dr. Nicole: And the trepidation.

[01:04:29] Dr. Joli: Yeah. Totally. Completely understandable. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:04:34] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And so I'm thinking about Esther Perel always talks about how desire is created in the othering, the individuation, right?

Desire. She says it's attraction plus obstacle equals desire, I believe it is. And so for me, I like to get a little bit more creative with the word obstacle. I think instead of that, I can throw in desire plus individuation. Equals attraction. And so you talked about jealousy, orgasms. This is such an important part of your research, the listener who is not comprehending what that might be.

Can you speak to that embodiment?

[01:05:10] Dr. Joli: Yeah. So I actually, I love that. Okay. So that equation, I believe comes originally out of Jack Morin's work in the erotic Mind. Mm. Okay. And Esther Perel has perpetuated, and I think she's done a beautiful job of helping us feel it. Yeah. Like, feel it, how like, oh, there has to be distance.

Mm-hmm. But I like what you just said because the word obstacles, when, when Morin used that word, he was talking about his four core erotic themes. So he is talking about ambi, overcoming ambivalence, and um, uh, facing taboo, playing with taboos and access to power. And so he's talking about these. There are so many other, like, yeah.

Obstacle could be loosened up, right? There's a lot more juice in there. But jealousy, I think jealousy actually can fulfill all of the core themes that Morin talked about. Mm-hmm. Jealousy hits us all different. And you know, in my study, like the first study that I did, 30% of participants, um, talked about feeling arousal with their jealousy.

Right? Right. And, you know, it was after, it was when I was talking about it myself publicly that I'm like, I gotta own this. 'cause the people who shared this in the study, even, even they, most of them were like, well yeah, I mean, like I get off on it. So we play with it, but. They had a hard time. It was the piece of the study materials that they had the hardest time actually saying the words, actually sharing the stories.

But let's back out a moment. Yeah. And say, look at porn categories. We know that jealousy can induce arousal. We don't have to look any further than all of the different categories that play on Absolutely. Voyeurism. That might have an, an edge or any cing or like the, the relationships where there's like this strain, it's just everywhere.

Yes. Yes. So we know it's possible. That's mm-hmm. That feels like, okay, we have evidence, but then if we move too fast into the personal, I think we cause panic, right? Like, so if I go directly to, um, a relationship that feels like, it's almost like survival base for me. Like I've got a deep attachment bond to someone and I'm, and I try to imagine being.

In an orgasmic state around them having sex with someone else. Like I, I think that's just, it's too, you've gone too far. Panic. Panic. Yeah. Now we've gotten attachment. Panic is on the scene. Yeah. Now, so if we, what if we walk in more slowly, right? What if we walk into this with where are the edges of jealousy for you?

If jealousy is about that, that tingly fear sense that, that, that edge where like I'm standing on the roller coaster like line and I'm like about to get on the roller coaster, but also I know that the roller coaster has been safety tested. I see that they are actually checking lap bars and all of that.

Mm-hmm. What's the situation you could imagine being in where you could experience an like the minimum effective dose Yep. Of jealousy. That might be like a rollercoaster. It's fear plus breath equals excitement, right? Mm-hmm. Because when I'm getting on a rollercoaster, I'm still breathing, I'm choosing, I feel at choice.

'cause I could always just walk through that seat and go out the other side. Yeah. So I, I've got choice, I've got a lot of agency. Mm-hmm. So what situation, and for some people this would be like, oh, could I be out at, uh, a music event with my partner and watch them from 10 or 12 feet away and just watch them while they are just being them and they're with other bodies and they're just feeling the music and we're in a public space and nobody's gonna be having sex.

But could I be in that space where I'm like, I am safe enough mm-hmm. To let that be hot. Right? Right. So there's like the, the like, that's like the tiniest dose and then there's the whole range. 'cause personally. Like one of the ways that I work with big jealousy, the kind of jealousy that does send me into attachment panic

[01:09:17] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[01:09:17] Dr. Joli: Is to very consciously with a very trusted partner, not with trust people who I'm just, you know, dallying with, but trusted partners who I have established can hold emotional containers.

[01:09:29] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:09:30] Dr. Joli: I will tell them the whole terrifying thing and I'll ask them to share details. The details that they are, are of course, able and willing to share with me.

Right. To help me evoke the jealousy

[01:09:41] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:09:42] Dr. Joli: While masturbating.

[01:09:43] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Classical conditioning there. I love that for you. Yeah. It's not for everyone, but I'll tell you

[01:09:51] Dr. Joli: it is. Mm-hmm. It is spicy and it is, I. It's not like it's a, it's not a, a one and done thing. Sure. But I will say I made leaps forward. Mm-hmm. In my experience of it, because I really tapped into that, that same thing that I've tapped into on a psychedelic, where I'm like, right.

Oh, there is no difference between my body and my partner's body and other bodies. We're all here and it's all fine. And I could tap into that. And they're telling me the story and they're holding the container.

[01:10:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:10:23] Dr. Joli: And something magic happens now, I think the magic that's happening is that's actually me, that's my soul.

Like starting to click into place and say, this was never about ownership. Right. We are okay. Right. We are all, we are all okay here. Right. Yeah. Not everybody loves this story.

[01:10:42] Dr. Nicole: I do. You're on the right podcast. Yes. This is why you're here. Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. It reminds me a lot of the, when I was on your podcast, the handshake dose, when we're doing psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, you don't just like drop someone off the face of the earth, you do a small dose so they can build that attachment and safety there.

'cause there's often a lot of, what is this gonna look like? And if you're coming from my paradigm, or maybe even deeper, where any sort of contact with someone of a different gender was forbidden. Uh, so getting coffee with a different gender friend was terrifying. Right. There's a lot of gentle exposure therapy to do with that to realize that your partner is not going to leave you.

Yeah. Yeah. Which is what your brain is saying is they're gonna do this, they're gonna leave me, they're gonna do this, they're gonna leave me, they're gonna do this, and they're gonna leave me. Right? And so repeated experiences for myself where I've crossed into not just coffee, but full sex with other people, and they don't leave you.

Right? You adjust. You adjust. And still, of course there are the days of jealousy, but you adjust and that edge point of feeling like, wow. Um, they say that, um, we are most attracted to our partners when they are in groups with other people or doing the thing they're passionate about, right? And so when we know that, oh wow, my partner has craved by someone else, and.

They choose to spend their time with me. Ooh. Like, that is a whole different way of looking at it.

[01:12:16] Dr. Joli: Yeah. Yeah. And I, so frequently what I will hear from someone is I get a lot of urgent jealousy calls in my work. Oh, sure. And, you know, urgent messages saying like, here, because, and I welcome them. Like, se send me that message that you're, that, that while you're in the panic, I hear you.

Yeah. And here's the thing, most of the time they have lost track of the reality that they already have a bunch of evidence. Mm-hmm. So in the moment, all the evidence starts to go away. So I, and I also see people jump into desensitization as if it's supposed to be horrible.

[01:12:49] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:12:49] Dr. Joli: Like, so they'll do their, this, this Yeah.

They'll do what you're saying, except they'll do it too fast. Too hard. Too fast. Yep, yep, yep, yep. So, like, yeah. And, and often because they didn't know. That jealousy was going to need this tender touch, that it was going to need to be sort of peeled back like the thinnest onion layers and just like you have to allow yourself to experience it.

Mm-hmm. And also we can't keep trying to cure it.

[01:13:17] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:13:18] Dr. Joli: It's not gonna go away. I mean, I've heard you say it already, it's not that like we don't solve it and say, oh, we're never gonna be jealous again. Right. We just experience it so like letting go of the idea that the jealousy itself is bad. So I absolutely, I like, I, I vibe with it in a way that says, okay, worst case scenario, I'm gonna have a panicky night tonight.

[01:13:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:13:41] Dr. Joli: And then tomorrow I am going to have an amazing evening with this same partner.

[01:13:47] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:13:47] Dr. Joli: 'cause we're gonna do my jealousy protocol and it's gonna be awesome. So what I need to do tonight. Is activate my jealousy rescue. Like what do I need to do to get through right now? Because on the other side of this, I'm going to peel another one of those onion layers because I want to.

Mm-hmm. Not because I have to, but because I want to, and not because I don't want to. My drive doesn't come from wanting my partners to specifically do other things. My drive comes from, I want to be able to do hard things. Yeah. I like, I like that it comes from the same thing that has me pick up heavy deadlift bars.

[01:14:23] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Right.

[01:14:23] Dr. Joli: And the same thing that had me, you know, I gave birth at home, I was like, right. Because I wanna know what I can do. And if I come to an edge where I can't, well, that's why we have lots and lots of other people in my life to like, be like, wow, I'm a mess this time and my, and all my tools aren't working.

Can I need more support? I'm, I need, and I'll huddle up. Yeah. Sometimes that happens too. Mm-hmm. It's, mm-hmm. You said like, you know, we, we do that ex we do those exposures and we, and we like, get our feet wet.

[01:14:55] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:14:56] Dr. Joli: And sometimes I think the hardest thing is just understanding that it doesn't have to feel good.

[01:15:03] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:15:03] Dr. Joli: To be okay. Yeah. To be useful, to even be valuable, but like, been given such a, it's like we put it into that category of things that we just shouldn't have to feel. Right. Right. And when we do that, like it, like, oh, it's not that just, this is hard. It's, I should never have to feel this. But that is a lot like saying I should never have to feel grief.

[01:15:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:15:26] Dr. Joli: But we're, but we're all gonna face loss.

[01:15:28] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:15:28] Dr. Joli: So, you know, like shoulding like that is just, it just compounds the trouble. So this is where I find Yeah. Yeah. And a good orgasm. Wait, that's been way more fun.

[01:15:40] Dr. Nicole: Totally. Yes. Than trying to prove to myself that I shouldn't feel this. Right. Right. Absolutely.

Jealousy is inevitable. I feel like what triggers it shifts, you know, like what triggers it shifts. Absolutely. Absolutely. But it's still there, you know? Um, and it's context on the set and setting, and it's so important when we, we know, again, as we talked about the history of this, this lineage and way of thinking and everything that we've had to unlearn.

And so when we look at other systems of oppression, it's not like people go, yeah, it's so comfortable and fun unlearning all this bullshit inside my head. Great, I'm having a great time. You know what I mean? And so I think there is that space of understanding that unlearning systems of oppression takes work and effort and discomfort, and that's actually what we need to be doing, not running away from it.

[01:16:30] Dr. Joli: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think, uh, it's, I, I see it a happen a lot where one person will show up in an established couple, I'll see like one person show up and they're super excited about opening and the other one's more reluctant. And it's so fascinating to watch when the more initiatory excited person gets to their time with jealousy.

It's gonna happen at some point. It may not even be over that partner. Maybe it's gonna be about a new partner that shows up, which actually is, you know, that's highly likely. Yeah. Um, when it's their turn, often they're less prepared. Mm. Because they, like, they didn't, they didn't get that initial feeling of like, no, no, I, I, I don't wanna do that 'cause I'd have to feel jealousy.

So there's this unpreparedness, but non-monogamy as an individuation journey is like, individuation is inherently going to bring you to periods of discomfort. You. You that's, that is a given, right? And so when you frame it that way, there's an obvious like, okay, I'm not experiencing jealousy now, but I am, I am going to have to face this one too.

All the things over and over again. And it's the people who think that somehow I got a pass. Sometimes I'll just say like, if you're not jealousy yet, don't worry. You're not dead yet.

Oh, you'll get your turn.

[01:17:43] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Yeah.

[01:17:44] Dr. Joli: And, and if you are a person who has a really high, like I, I think my, my nesting partner has a really high tolerance for the sensations of jealousy.

So he feels it. But his way of working with it, he's also neurodivergent. So like his way of working with, it's just very different. It looks gentle from the outside, but as he's gotten to know what jealousy is for him, he's like, well, it's not like it's not happening. Mm. But we all do different things. So the one thing I would ask from, from us collectively is for those who are not suffering, when jealousy comes up, don't shame the ones who are Yeah.

Like don't, don't assume that there's a get out of jail free card. Mm. You may have been lucky enough to get yourself a higher tolerance, um, or an ability to ground into self faster, whatever it is. Yeah. But we can't guarantee anything.

[01:18:34] Dr. Nicole: No, no. Absolutely not.

[01:18:36] Dr. Joli: And yeah, when jealousy shows up, though, we do have, I, it is one of my favorite pieces of evidence that I have real contact with that, that space between.

Self and other. Mm-hmm. I, I I can see it. Yeah. I know it's there, there I'm, because if Yeah, because if I didn't, so that's, that's what I try to do. I'm like, wait, wait. This is the evidence. It's the evidence. I care. It's the evidence that we are differentiating. Right. So if we're coming out of Codependence, this can be like evidence of, oh, I was so merged before that I couldn't even experience jealousy.

'cause I was like, I was, I was them. Like, we're so blended. Yeah. As I come out of that and I feel the tension of, oh, they're over there. Yeah. I mean. It's nice to take the win where you get it. Mm-hmm. And just recognizing that you can fully see your partner as an autonomous individual. Yeah. That's a huge win, especially if you're toward the beginning of the journey.

[01:19:38] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. Uh, I think, you know, it reminds me a lot of the psychedelic paradigms where you get people who have done a lot of psychedelics and they go, I don't have bad trips. I don't do that and I'm always like Uhhuh. Mm-hmm. Yeah. In the right set and setting the right dose, anything is possible.

So stay humble folks, you know what I mean? Don't stay humble. Like what do you wanna call into your life there? Careful. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Right. But you get those people are like, oh, I've done poly so long. I've done this, I've done this. Nothing could phase me. Yeah. And uh, I think it's just have to be more humble that, you know, especially when you're exploring this for the first time, like a psychedelic experience or quite literally anything in the human experience, we don't know what's going to happen.

We think we have so much control. We think we have so much control. My first threesome was with one of my fem partners and one of my male partners and I was like, great, these are both my partners. They're friends with each other, but they're my partners. I'm not gonna feel threatened 'cause they're my partners.

[01:20:41] Dr. Joli: They're mine. Yeah.

[01:20:42] Dr. Nicole: Wrong.

[01:20:44] Dr. Joli: That sounds very familiar, Nicole.

That sounds familiar. You did. Yeah.

[01:20:49] Dr. Nicole: Yeah,

[01:20:50] Dr. Joli: yeah. Right. It's, it is also wild to me to, to watch. Um, so I knew that, that I had to work with jealousy 'cause there it was. Mm-hmm. But when somebody has been poly for a long time and they talk about how they never feel jealousy.

The other like red flag I would put up for them is you might have just started labeling it something else. Ooh. Yeah. Be like, so when I was first with my nesting partner, his name is Ken, he's on my podcast. Yes. Like every, like, I'm like, we're not saying his name. There he is. Um, when I was first with him, it seemed like he didn't feel jealousy and he wouldn't talk about it.

Like, he wasn't like highfalutin about it, but he was like, oh yeah, that's not really a thing for me. Like, yeah, I just don't like. It took years of him being by my side, watching me go through very loud jealousy that I named and was honest about, and watching other partners and watching what they're going through and then, and then realizing, oh, I experienced the same sensations in the same framework you're describing jealousy.

Mm-hmm. As in a fear that a valued relationship would be interrupted by a third. Yeah. But I just, I just call it fear or insecurity.

[01:22:04] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:22:05] Dr. Joli: I just call it those things. I never use the word jealousy. Sure. I had a client recently who discovered that they'd been calling it, um, mad. They've just been using the word.

I'm just mad, mad They wouldn't use the word jealousy and they would just say they were mad. And it sounds so silly, right? Like, how do you not see it? But they truly were protecting both of these individuals were protecting themselves from the shame that they felt attached to owning jealousy. Yep. So when Ken came to deal with this, he was like, oh, I need to own my jealousy because that there's the thing, I can't even get any support for it.

'cause I'm so ashamed of it that I can't even say the word. Right. So I reframe it as this other thing, at which point it becomes a me problem.

[01:22:48] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:22:48] Dr. Joli: And I don't need it. I can't get any support because it's, it's, it's insecurity. Sure. It's insecurity. So that's a me thing. So I'll go back to therapy and I'll deal with my insecurity.

What if it's a relational thing? 'cause jealousy is inherently relational. So, and this, this other, this client who was using the word mad. Mm-hmm. It was, it was largely because like he would lose his words. So he would just get furious. Right. Sure. He'd have his, he'd be, um, he'd have grip lust. He'd be like clenching his fists.

But it was all turning inward. He wasn't, he wasn't even hostile to anyone else. Nobody else would've even used that word. But it was turning inward. His fight response was like, he was going in and he was so mad and he was the initiator. He wanted non-monogamy. Oof. That's so, yeah. Like see in a tangle, like, right.

Yep. So we started loosening up some space around the word jealousy. Mm-hmm. And reclaiming it. And his local non-monogamy community, it's still not like, it's not cool. You're supposed to evolve your way out of jealousy. Mm. You're just not supposed to be. So we've been really working with that. Like, what if it's okay that you're jealous?

And I know that for those seasoned pros out there, you're gonna be like, yeah, duh. What if it's okay to feel it? As long as you don't act like an asshole. Yeah. What if you don't hurt other people with it? And we like, and we actually invite people into this experience and it's really, it's, it's quite beautiful to watch him now asking for help around jealousy and asking for help specifically from.

Male friends. Yeah. Big, huge. Inviting them into this, like it's intimacy. I think honestly, like he didn't, he thought the intimacy was all gonna be sexual, like that. He described a very sort of prototypical like why for non monogamy. Yep. But what's happening is now he's sort of spearheading bringing jealousy into the conversation and gaining more masculine friends, uh, you know, in this, in this club of like, oh, oh, we're gonna say the thing.

Okay. It's like that's paradigm shifting.

[01:24:47] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:24:48] Dr. Joli: And that's a cultural conversation. We need so badly.

[01:24:51] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely liberating your voice like you did on the dot with Ted X, like that person's doing in their circle. It's essential, right. To be able to release all of these binds that we have and to be seen in that process of shared experience.

'cause like you're saying, these things are very shared, very common experiences. And I think even for myself, I, I've found moments where my brain, you know, I get so I'm sure you can. Resonate with this, like so hypercritical of words and language and all of it. And if I'm feeling jealousy, I might not even turn it inwards towards myself of struggling, but I'll turn it towards my partner and being like, well, you didn't tell me in this way at this time, in this way, in this way.

So it's actually your fault. You did something. And I think it's a redirect projection out from some of my own tenderness.

[01:25:41] Dr. Joli: Yes, yes, yes, yes. It's so unbinding. I think that that is, that's a, a beautiful way to, to like use the image of that as I unbind myself from what I have been caught in and this, like, we didn't make this up individually.

Yeah. Like the cultural story of jealousy and, and there is, there's limited cross-cultural research on jealousy. Mm-hmm. But for the purposes of this discussion, you know, most. People who have been indoctrinated in some form of the Western cannon. Even if, even if you yourself, have started to make peace with jealousy.

We are still just, we're in a mi of being, having jealousy thrust upon us all the time as both proof of love. Yeah. And the biggest danger signal you could ever receive. Mm-hmm. Both. It's miserable. It's not fair. Yeah. Yeah. So we have to do this individual work and then within our smaller circles and then larger and larger, and that's, that's how we change our collective impression that jealousy is something to be ashamed of.

Mm-hmm. The jealousy itself is shameful. Right. As most of us were not talked to talk about. Like, we just don't talk about it. Don't say the thing. Exactly.

[01:27:03] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. And so the power of rewriting through masturbation and soul play, because to, to really enjoy that there's a level of safety that is needed in the body.

And so when you're conjuring that image, right, to find that safety, and I think it's even good practice for people to imagine scenarios that haven't even happened yet, just haven't even happened yet. And then when you feel how much you react, look at how powerful your mind is and what it's already projecting to a literal, imaginary scenario.

[01:27:34] Dr. Joli: Absolutely. The imaginal third is my favorite tool. Especially like if you're not, if you haven't even like taken the physical steps Right. Of opening yet. And I think a lot of, a lot of people I come across that like, imagine that it's going to be overwhelming. I'm like, well, so again, come back to like what's the tiniest dose?

Right. Exactly. What would be the thing that would set you off? And like you said it, growing up in purity culture, it might be coffee with a friend, like coffee. Right. With somebody of a different gender. It might be that. It's so true though.

[01:28:06] Dr. Nicole: That was my journey. Yep.

[01:28:07] Dr. Joli: Yeah, it's, we don't know what is going to set us off.

And for me, actually, it's funny, the, the like the lighter stuff at this point might be more apt to set me off than the really intense stuff. Yeah. 'cause I've worked more with the intense stuff. Mm-hmm. So it's, if I were gonna get blindsided by it, it would probably come from Oh. Oh. I wasn't expecting to see that in that moment.

Like I wasn't expecting to see my car partner having that kind of interchange over a cup of coffee. Right. But imagining scenarios is so powerful. The imagination also between partners of like mm-hmm. How does this go? How like, 'cause it's a way to, to play with what would reassurance look like. Right. What could it look like before we've gotten to the point where we're, we're trying to reassure, and also maybe there are truths that haven't been spoken.

Mm-hmm. Maybe there are stories that can't, there's no space for yet, right. Um, yeah. 'cause the exchange of information around topics that create jealousy. It's pretty complicated. Mm-hmm. Yes. Just the, just the, the context of like, what can I share and what I can't and what, and how much information do I want versus what I don't want.

[01:29:18] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. The consent of it all is huge and it's quite literally an area that so many of us have not yet traversed as a culture, and so, so many of us are feeling our way through it, finding the language, finding the practices often by making mistakes, and then picking ourselves up in community and saying, I'm gonna do better this time.

And Yes. Yeah. I just think about also the importance of envisioning. Or the importance of creating visions of pleasure too. 'cause often so much of our brain is the fear. The fear, the fear. Thinking of basic CBT stuff, just balancing that out. Like what is the most pleasurable vision you have? What is the most pleasurable way where this could work out for you?

Yes. And feeling into that too, right? Yes. Don't just get lopsided into the fear. 'cause that's so, so much easier for our, our monkey brain to wanna look to the danger, the danger 'cause of survival, but also take time building those neuronal pathways going the opposite direction too, to balance it out at minimum.

[01:30:12] Dr. Joli: Yeah. And that's where I think it is helpful to hear stories like some of us have really grabbed onto how jealousy can be erotic and actually, so I guess to circle back to what we started with. Sure. Yeah. Um, you know, part of dealing with this like 18 months where sex wasn't working well with this partner was right.

Like, okay, well one of the ways I can still get off is my imagination around how he still has, has a thriving sex life with others. Mm mm-hmm. That was still working for me. Yeah. I'm like, this is so many layers of perverse Yeah. To be like, it's not working here. But I can still get off to the jealousy of it working over there.

But it was also evidence that there was still something in me that was really feeling like connecting. Like I really wanted to connect in this way, but it that comes through, um, gaining fluency with my jealousy. Yeah. Like I, I like, I work with it so much that it's not terrifying 'cause, 'cause it's just, it's just part of what I'm looking at.

I'm not just looking for happy or sad and I'm actively looking for Where does, where does jealousy give me an opportunity to feel like, oh yeah, exactly what you said. My partner is wanted and wants and is choosing me. Like just continually coming back to that. 'cause that's my best case scenario. That's honestly, that's my best case scenario for relationship, period.

Right. Right. My partner has autonomy and agency and chooses me.

[01:31:43] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:31:44] Dr. Joli: And so as we started to like really heal the rift in our, our sex time continuum. Yeah. It, like, I was, I was able to feel into, okay, so he has sexual energy and he turns it out and he can turn it toward me as well. Okay. Mm. Oh, okay. Yeah.

And, and yeah. I mean, was jealousy more present then? A little, yeah. Mostly I just learned to play with it during, 'cause at least it was, you know, it, it did remind me that there was a deep connection there that I valued. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:32:22] Dr. Nicole: I wanna invite you to take the biggest deep breath into the power. That you've built with your jealousy and with yourself and your mind, and also your community that has supported you.

But the amount of stretching, like taking a full deep breath into your embodiment with that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You worked hard for that doctor. Yeah. Hell yeah.

[01:32:50] Dr. Joli: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's, it's years. We're over a decade and a half. Hell yes. Years. Ugh. Ugh. Mm-hmm. And coming from a place where I was so afraid that jealousy was going to eat me up, gobble me up. Yeah. We didn't even say the word for the first year.

Of doing polyamory in a full-time, live together triad. Yeah. So anything is surmountable.

[01:33:19] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yes. Absolutely. You're doing such important work, and it's such a joy to have your powerful, embodied voice in this podcast space.

[01:33:29] Dr. Joli: Mm-hmm. Thank you so much, Nicole. Yeah. I just love how you, you uh, you really like elongate the discussion around this, and I, it's like, like you make this, um, horizontal space in conversation that really thrills me.

It's easy to be vulnerable about like, yeah, this is real. This is real. Yeah. And we are, we've gotten good at this. We have Dr. Nicole, we've got great at this. Yeah. Yeah. But, but the humanity is still the core of it.

[01:34:00] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:34:01] Dr. Joli: Right. I really see you grounding here into like Yeah. And we're just, we're humans doing this relating thing.

Yeah. Because it's how we become more us.

[01:34:09] Dr. Nicole: I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah. Coming from the coffee date being scary is a very humbling journey. Right. So you gotta start way on the floor there, so gotta start where you are.

[01:34:20] Dr. Joli: Yeah. And, and you know what, that's, that's it. We need those stories so much because the purity culture to poly pipeline is really,

[01:34:29] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

Purity ring to poly. That's the memoir one day for sure. Right? For real. Yeah. Uh, well as we come towards the end of our time today, I'm gonna take a really deep breath with you

and I'll check in and see if there's anything else that you wanna share with the listeners. Otherwise, I have a closing question for you.

[01:34:53] Dr. Joli: I feel very complete. Beautiful.

[01:34:56] Dr. Nicole: So the closing question that I ask every guest on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:35:05] Dr. Joli: I mean, there's an easy answer, right?

Right, right, right. But I think the thing that I wish right now, in this moment is that, um, your relational connections are gonna feel bad sometimes. Yeah. And that doesn't mean that they are bad.

[01:35:26] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:35:27] Dr. Joli: They're gonna feel away sometimes. And then it takes that 500 yard view to be like, let me, let me be with this.

I love a good discernment process, but, uh, sometimes it's just about letting it be like, this isn't great right now. Mm-hmm. Teleologically, I'll be happy. I'll look back. I'll look back someday.

[01:35:50] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. And we experience that in the individual, right? Yeah. There are days where it's extremely heavy and days where it's so joyful.

We see that in seasons that come and go, especially in Chicago, through life and death cycles. Right. We see that in the weather. Some days are so rainy storms. Right. And other days are sunny and so, yeah, yeah,

[01:36:11] Dr. Joli: yeah, yeah. Yep. Relationships are like the weather.

[01:36:15] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:36:16] Dr. Joli: And we can do a lot, we can do so much with it.

So much. Yeah. They're just filled with so much potential. Mm-hmm.

[01:36:25] Dr. Nicole: Are there any last words that you would say of advice to your younger self who's, you know, the younger self who's tuning into this podcast? What would you say to her?

[01:36:34] Dr. Joli: Hmm.

I, i, the, I would start with the advice, the very strong advice to slow down.

Mm. And to slow down and, and actually listen. But I would al I would really want that paired with, and when you've got your answer, take decisive action.

[01:36:56] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:36:57] Dr. Joli: And I tended to move too fast ah, with those decisive actions. So slowing way down so that I could actually like, act with clarity, especially when it came to my most pivotal, most entangled relationships.

And I would go all the way back 'cause I got engaged for the first time when I was 17.

[01:37:17] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:37:18] Dr. Joli: Wow. Yeah. I would go all the way back to my teenage self and say, slow down. And then trust your intuition wholly when, when you've given yourself that time. Mm mm

[01:37:31] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Beautiful words of advice to your younger self.

And I'm sure it's gonna resonate, resonates with me and will resonate with so many of the listeners who are turning today to be able to trust ourselves in these moments.

[01:37:43] Dr. Joli: Yeah. Yeah, that's what I would wish for. All everybody, I really would.

[01:37:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, it was such a joy to have you on the podcast today.

I feel honored to be able to have this conversation with you and to reflect on how much we've grown over the time. And I'm sure you'll be on the podcast again in the future.

[01:38:00] Dr. Joli: It's, it's so amazing. And Nicole, I'm really, I'm so impressed with what you have built. I was so excited that first time. 'cause I could see like, what, like what you were doing and I'm, so it is, um, it's one of my favorite things to listen to because there's, um.

That you have a voice. Yes. But you also have a presence you're bringing here. I'm so grateful that you've brought this, this presence into the world where everybody can see it. Hell yeah. Everybody can hear. Fear It all. Fear it all. Bring it all.

[01:38:32] Dr. Nicole: I love it so much. Thank you so much for having me, Nicole.

Thank you. Thank you. And I have been a guest on your show. Where can people find all of your stuff? I'm sure they're resonating, wanting to learn more. You have so much wisdom to share.

[01:38:46] Dr. Joli: Yeah, so Playing with Fire is the name of my podcast You have done. So you had an episode. Just come out, there'll be another episode out before this episode airs and I'm so excited to have that one come out.

'cause I'm like, okay, everybody needs to hear this one too. Yes. Um, so playing with fire can be found everywhere. And if you were listening to my jealousy chitter chatter and thought I need more of that, um, you can find that on my website@joliehamilton.com. The easiest way is to just pop on over and go to, um, my jealousy resource center, which you'll find under the Work with Jolie tab.

Um, it's got all the jealousy stuff there in one place.

[01:39:25] Dr. Nicole: Amazing and amazing. And I'll have all of that linked in the show notes below listeners, so you can just go to the show notes and find all the links there. So yeah, thank you again for joining me today. Thank you, woman. If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast.

And head on over to Modern Anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I wanna thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.