251. The Heroic Dose of Polyamory and Sexual Communication with Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Evita join us for a conversation about becoming turned on by more things. Together. We talk about. Sex That feels good before, during, and after an ethic of compersion and navigating NRE. Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday.

My name is Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, author of the Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and founder of the Pleasure Practice, where I support individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships. Dear. Listener, the heroic dose of polyamory and sexual communication.

I'm still on that dose. Wow. Oh, this episode is so special. Avita was so honest, authentic. Vulnerable and it is palpable. You can just feel it in the joy that we exchange in the space, in the dialogue, the laughter, those deep moments of just really talking about the ego death that comes with this practice of polyamory and communicating very clearly in sex in our society.

That's a huge dose, okay? A huge heroic dose. And so for all of you out there tripping right now, hey, you found your community here. We get it. We understand, and we are here to grow together. Alright, you're a listener. If you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and free resources@modernanarchypodcast.com, linked in the show notes below.

And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters. You are supporting the long-term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible to all people. So thank you. And with that dear listener, please know that I am sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode.

Dear Listener, there's a space already waiting for you where you are invited to let go of every old script about. And relationships and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure, empowerment, and deep alignment. I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real transformation possible. And I'll be right there with you guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure. And visit Modern Anarchy podcast.com/pleasure practice to apply.

And so the first question I ask each guest is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:04:24] Evita: Uh, my name is Evita Lavitaloca Sawyers. I am a black, queer, non-monogamous human being. I'm a mother. Um, I have, uh, friends, I have family, you know, um, I am a global citizen.

[00:04:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:46] Evita: And that matters to me.

[00:04:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:04:48] Evita: Um, by day I am a statewide HIV prevention manager. I work for an organization that assists folks living with HIV and aids. We have a care and treatment side. And then I also have the prevention side where we do prep counseling and sex education, those kinds of things. Um, and so it's really good to have that job because, you know, for capitalism I am working towards the world that I wanna see.

[00:05:13] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:05:13] Evita: Um, that feels very fulfilling. Um, and then by night I am a content creator, educator, speaker, teacher, author on non-monogamy and polyamory. Um, I started this journey with content creation about, in 2020 actually. So now we're doing it now for about five years. And this is very much a labor of love for me.

I'm, I'm being the voice in the space. That was not there when I was, uh, new and struggling and there were so many things I meant wish someone else would've told me I would've had, I would've had these, these messages. These are messages that I wish would've been available at the time when I was going through it.

And so, uh, it started with me just talking about my experience in groups online. Um, and that resonating with people and then me kind of going, Hey, we might have a knack for this, you. Mm-hmm. And so we started talking. And so that's really what it is. I told people I just started talking and didn't stop.

[00:06:13] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:06:13] Evita: And now here we are, you know?

[00:06:15] Dr. Nicole: And now we're here. Amazing. Right. So happy to hear that. So happy to have you in this space and to be able to share all of your wisdom with the listeners. I'm so excited to get into it. Mm-hmm. So, your personal journey into this space, tell me the first time you hear about non monogamy, where are you, how does it land for you, and where do you go from there?

[00:06:40] Evita: So I have such an interesting journey in terms of coming into this because, uh, my non-monogamy journey actually started with swinging. Mm-hmm. Which is a huge gateway to polyamory, non-monogamy. And, um, it started with my, then I call that my entry partner, which is my ex-husband that were my entry partner.

And so, uh, we started with swinging as a way for me to explore my queerness. I knew that I was queer at a very young age. I was 14, uh, when I like really was kind of like playing around with it. And in 16, when I was short. But I didn't get the opportunity to really flesh it out. I, uh, went into the military and at the time, don't ask, don't tell with a thing.

So I didn't have the freedom to explore it. And then shortly after joining the military, I began to attend this very fundamental Christian Church. And so then homosexuality was a sin.

[00:07:37] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:07:37] Evita: And so I like spent this time. The homosexual tendencies never really went away, but I was just like, okay, it's wrong, you know?

So that was the, the ideology of that particular, you know, church. And so then I get married while I was there, and now I'm monogamously married to a man. Uh, but my queerness never really went away. And so we had a period maybe about nine years into our marriage where it was, I was really struggling with, am I even straight at all?

Yeah. You know, I don't know this, um, I'm married to this man. The relationship isn't fulfilling. I'm having these really, really strong queer desires. And so I was grappling with whether or not I was even straight at all.

[00:08:24] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:08:24] Evita: And so at the time, we were going through something really, really difficult in our, uh, family.

My son had had a pediatric cancer. He had a brain, uh, a tumor. And so life was just really hard. And, uh, my, uh, husband at the time had a lot of sexual hangups. And like I said, I had this burgeoning, you know, queerness that was yet to be explored. And so we were like, Hey. Fuck it. You know? Yeah. Let's, why not?

Let's, let's do something. Why not? You know? And so I started with, we started with swinging. Swinging was very at the, in the beginning at least. It was very comfortable for me, uh, because I always tell people I'm a slut, you know? Yeah. Hands, hands down a hundred percent. I'm a floozy.

[00:09:09] Dr. Nicole: You're in the right space.

[00:09:10] Evita: So I love having sex and I love having sex with a lot of people, you know. And so swinging was very, very comfortable for me. It was not very comfortable for my ex-husband. I would definitely, I don't know that he would, uh, like describe himself as a demisexual. Uh, but he definitely needed a lot more to feel safe being sexual with someone than I did, so I could sleep with somebody whose name I don't know mm-hmm.

At that time. Okay. That has changed. Okay. Which

[00:09:37] Dr. Nicole: Sure, sure.

[00:09:37] Evita: Which I hate for myself, but also, you know, we, we, we have to allow ourselves, our movements through, you know, our experience. But

[00:09:44] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:09:44] Evita: But yeah. But you know, but at that time, you know, I could sleep with somebody I didn't know, you know, and loved that.

Sure. And so Sure swinging was, was we, it was, it didn't match our needs from non-monogamy. So he struggled. Swinging was very easy for me.

[00:09:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:09:57] Evita: Uh, but through swinging, we got introduced to the concept of polyamory, which Sure, to him was very appealing and to me was very threatening because at that time, my philosophy was that.

Your body is a shell and sex is something that literally, dogs do it, cats do it, you know?

[00:10:16] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:10:16] Evita: So it didn't have a lot of like spiritual, like emotional. It didn't have a lot of significance to me. And so it was very easy for me to conceptualize wanting to have sex with other people because I very easily wanted to have sex with other people.

And so that wasn't the challenge. I had some, you know, minor stuff. What if the person has a better body than me, or, you know, they're better in bed? But those were things that I was able to navigate relatively easily. It was. Sharing your regard, sharing his time, his affection, his love. Like those were things that I really felt like were mine.

[00:10:52] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:10:53] Evita: And that I wanted to have, and that I was sharing if, you know, we opened up to, uh, polyamory. Uh, but what polyamory afforded him the opportunity to do was to develop that emotional safety so that he could be sexual with other people. Oh yeah. Because he kind of really needed that. And so we tried it.

We went on a couple of dates. I had a complete meltdown.

[00:11:16] Dr. Nicole: Oh no.

[00:11:17] Evita: And we tabled it. Yeah. I was just not okay. He went on one date and I fell apart. Yeah.

[00:11:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I feel that.

[00:11:22] Evita: And, uh, so we tabled it. And, uh, stayed with swinging for a little bit. And then we came back to it maybe about six months later because what I wanted the opportunity to experience was being able to have romantic relationships with women, non men, you know mm-hmm.

Fem identified folks. Mm-hmm. Uh, swinging only afforded me the opportunity to have sex with them. Mm-hmm. And so I didn't know what it was like to be in a relationship with someone of my same, you know, gender or my same biology, and I wanted that experience. And so we revisited the conversation of non-monogamy and, and polyamory specifically.

And at the time, you know, most couples with a bisexual, cisgender wife and a, you know, heterosexual cisgender man, they usually go into non-monogamy looking for a third, you know?

[00:12:09] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Unicorn.

[00:12:10] Evita: And seeking the unicorn, right? Yeah. We did not, uh, we did not go in that way because. I was like, there is no way in hell that we are gonna find somebody that we both like, we have completely different taste in women.

I always say he has a man's taste in women. I have a woman's taste in women's is what I would say. And so there was like, there's no way that we're gonna find someone that we both wanna be with. And so you go find you somebody. I go find me somebody. Never the twain shall meet.

[00:12:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:36] Evita: And we randomly were at a swinger party, met this girl and a triad formed.

Mm. It was all of our first time at the rodeo. Wow. With non-monogamy that wasn't just swinging.

[00:12:50] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:12:51] Evita: And there was a lot of moving pieces. That relationship was highly volatile.

[00:12:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:12:56] Evita: And um, it's actually the subject of the documentary that we have poly love. Mm-hmm. Um, that, that talks about that relationship.

That was the relationship that was a part of that documentary that lasted for about two years off and on, like I said, very volatile. Um, and then once that relationship ended. We were just open, you know, Pandora's box had kind of been open. And so from that point forward, we engaged in a variety of kind of relationships.

We did the best that we could to not be hierarchical.

[00:13:22] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:23] Evita: Um, and so allow each other the space to have the kind of relationships that we want to have. So we had long distance relationships. I was in another triad where I dated a married couple as a married person. And so we had relationship configurations of various types throughout that period, uh, with the, trying the best that we could to be as egalitarian as possible.

[00:13:41] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:42] Evita: And then in 2020, he and I separated. He made the choice to end our, our marriage. And now we enjoy a co-parent relationship. Uh, 'cause we have three children. Uh, I moved, I lived in California at the time. I moved over here to New Jersey, which is where I currently reside. And now, you know, I just tell people I'm non-monogamous and how that manifests varies.

Sometimes it's casual sex and swinging. Sometimes it's polyamory that I have relationships and partners that are loved connections. Sometimes it's relationships that are just kind of more open, you know, this is a person that I see, they see other people. We're not really super, you know, connecting with each other around that.

But I just kind of tell people that how I identify is I'm just non-monogamous. So no person who I enter into a relationship with, with any expectation of any kind of exclusivity. Um, and that's pretty much how I identify at this point.

[00:14:33] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Thank you for sharing your journey to getting to this space.

Yes, there is so much to respond to. I, I wanna share that I also came from purity culture and fundamental Christianity and had a pretty big reckoning with queerness and was condemning homosexuals early on in my journey until I discovered I was one later. And you can definitely question why I was so bit vitriolic about it.

Right. Um, and so I, I hear that journey of what it's like to be in that space and then to hit want, you know, getting into that long-term monogamous relationship and wanting to explore queerness, which feels like a very normal, and I don't like that word, but normal arc of a lot of what I hear with people who kind of go down that path.

I'm curious if you've heard that too in your work?

[00:15:25] Evita: Oh yeah. So, uh. You know, in, in a, in a previous life, I was actually unfaithful to my ex-husband. And how I did that was, at that time you would go on Craigslist and there would be all these ads from women in my same situation to where they had chosen a monogamous, you know, marriage to a man, but they had all these queer feelings and so we would kind of go on Craigslist and we'd be like, Hey, we want a space to explore this, but we have this monogamous marriage that we can't do this in.

And there was almost, there was a sense of like security in that because it's like, you got something to lose, I have something to lose. So you not about to blow my shit up. I'm not about to blow your shit up. Yeah. And so my first kind of movements through queerness in my marriage and non-monogamy in my marriage came from infidelity because I was linking up with these, you know, women online and trying to find.

You know, women in the same circumstance that I was, that like, we're monogamously married to these men, but we have these yearning and these urges and we wanna explore those things. So I do see that, you know, often, you know, there's compulsory monogamy, there's also compulsory heterosexuality. And for a lot of us, uh, you know, we fell into that trap and then had these like awakenings where we're like, oh, you know, this is actually not, not for me.

[00:16:45] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. And the research shows that women do cheat just as much, if not more than men. And that really started taking off in the 1970s once women had more financial security. Wow. What a correlation. Until then, yeah, I kind of had to stay with this guy and anything else meant I couldn't live by myself.

Right. And so I think there's so much to unlearn with the cultural messages of, of course, that like, women don't want sex in the same way as all that blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. And so I appreciate you coming into this space to name that, to name how essential it was for you to find that exploration and to find a space where you could tap into your pleasure.

It's so, so needed because we know there are so many women who would be afraid to admit that. So many women who are afraid to admit it to theirselves even. Yeah. That they want and crave that. Mm-hmm.

[00:17:41] Evita: Very much so.

[00:17:43] Dr. Nicole: And so you said that now today you're not able to just have sex with anybody. I'm curious about that journey for you.

I, I, I, I resonated when you were like, you have to be there for the journey. The pleasure just keeps evolving, doesn't it? It seems like it does. As soon as you get it, it's like, well, and here's the next thing. You're like, okay, change. Got it. So, I'm, I'm curious for you, what does that arc look like with your sexuality?

[00:18:10] Evita: Yeah. Uh, I used to really be able to go to swinger parties. Yeah. See someone immediately know that I wanted to have sex with them and, and be able to do that. Now it's just not there. Uh, I think that I, that my, my safety needs changed. And unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, safety is just, yeah.

Not something that we can often just have with someone right away.

[00:18:43] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:44] Evita: Usually it takes a little bit of time to establish that.

[00:18:47] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:18:47] Evita: So I found that my safety needs have changed in terms of how I interact with people. I also have a chronic STI.

[00:18:55] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:18:55] Evita: You know, and so there's that, that, you know, element of sleeping with people, uh, you know, and having to have that conversation with people, which is always a challenging conversation to have.

[00:19:05] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:05] Evita: And so I had different safety needs.

[00:19:09] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:19:10] Evita: And so now. I, I often find now that I'm not even, I used to be able to see somebody and find them attractive right away. Like, I used to be able to see somebody and be like, okay, I found this person attractive. Now that doesn't even happen very often. I can look at someone and be like, that's a good looking person.

Uh, but I usually need a little, I can find someone attractive. I need a little bit more to be attracted to them, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, and so I found that, I noticed that that changed. And so because my safety needs sexually changed because, um, you know, like I said, my attractions change and that I, I'm, I'm a much slower to feeling attracted to people.

Um, it makes it a little harder for me to just hook up with anybody. Like I would like to. Um, I have these stints sometimes where I'm like, 'cause I, I live by myself. Um, both of my partnerships are long distance. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I, and as a person who has a very high sex drive, that's hard. Yeah.

[00:20:05] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Absolutely.

[00:20:07] Evita: So I have these like brief stints of time. Where I'll want to sleep with someone or wanna hook up with someone. And so I, I'll go online and I'll be like, okay, you know, let me try to see if I can find someone that I can just have like a little, you know, and I'm very, very honest with people, you know, I, I, I'll have people ask me, what are you looking for?

And I'm like, I literally, what I'll say to them is, I'm looking for somebody that I can have good, consistent sex with. Who I can stand and be around for 20 minutes. That's literally what I say. Air direct, very clear every time, very clear that I can stand and be around for more than 20 minutes, you know?

[00:20:39] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah.

[00:20:41] Evita: And, uh, but what I was finding is I, I'll do this and then the ways in which, you know, people are like, they wanna meet right away. They wanna have sex writer, then move into that space and I'm like, I'm not there yet. I kind of need to talk to you a little bit more. I kind of need to feel where your head space is at a little bit more.

I don't know that I necessarily need to feel an emotional connection to people 'cause I don't, I need to feel an emotional connection, but it just takes me a little bit more time than it used to determine if I really want to go there with a person. I think I also equated quantity of sex with quality of sex.

[00:21:17] Dr. Nicole: Mm mm mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:21:19] Evita: And I was like, as long as I'm having a lot of sex, it's great.

[00:21:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Right.

[00:21:22] Evita: But if I'm having a lot of bad sex or not that great sex, you know, or, or, or like sex that, like I, I, I say now that my focus is, I try to focus now on having sex that feels good before, during, and after.

[00:21:34] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Huge.

[00:21:36] Evita: So it feels good going into it. It feels good while I'm having it, and then it feels good after. And I found that a lot of my sexual situations, that wasn't what was happening. It didn't feel good before in terms of how I was interacting with the person beforehand. Or maybe it didn't feel good during, we didn't have enough conversations on the back end to ensure that it felt good during.

Or it didn't feel good after the fact. Yeah. The way I was treated by the person, or how I felt about how I showed up in the space or how they showed up to me mm-hmm. Didn't feel good. And so I started going, Vita, we really have to pay attention to making sure that we're having sex. That feels good before, during,

[00:22:11] Dr. Nicole: yeah,

[00:22:11] Evita: and after.

And honestly, that is just not as easy to come by.

[00:22:15] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, I hear you

[00:22:16] Evita: as as I wish it was.

[00:22:17] Dr. Nicole: I hear you. I hear you. And that I've always joked that the sluttier I've got the slower, I've moved these, your standards for what you want. And that connection have gotten so much higher. Right. And so I really hear you.

And also the grief of that. 'cause I, yeah. I wanna be turned on by more things, honestly. Like that's the dream. Oh my god. I would love to.

[00:22:37] Evita: So can we talk about that, right? Yeah. I wanna be turned on by more things and I find that I'm less and less and less turned on. I remember, uh, watching this video and this guy said something that they don't tell you about in your healing journey.

Yeah. Is that your, your sexuality change? You said, nobody looked good to me anymore, and I was like, oh my goodness. Look good to me anymore.

[00:22:59] Dr. Nicole: Well, you know what? It does. A dildo and a vibrator. I got myself, you know,

[00:23:02] Evita: I got it. I'm like, I'm like, look, I can get myself off five different ways from Sunday in like 10 minutes and be done.

I ain't gotta deal with nobody, Ashley Sun getting on my nerves. Exactly. Yeah. You know, and so and so, yeah. And so like, yeah, you know, I want to be turned on more and what I'm finding now is happening actually is. That I'm having to now meet is because I don't get turned on as much because I don't get attracted to people as much, or I don't get interested in people as much as I used to.

When it does happen, I get like, woo.

[00:23:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, of course, of course.

[00:23:33] Evita: And it's like a really big deal. 'cause I'm like, oh my gosh, this can happen for me again.

[00:23:38] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

[00:23:40] Evita: And I'm having to sit with the, the level of intensity that that brings forward for me. I, I had a situation recently, uh, with my Metamore, you know?

Mm-hmm. To where I, I developed this really, really intense, um, attraction to her. And while she's absolutely an amazing, incredible, attractive, sexy, brilliant, dynamic person, all of those things are true. And also a lot of that was coming from the space of going, I so rarely feel this for people now that when I do feel this for people, I get really attached.

To the fact that like, this is the, the object of my desire because, you know, my desire space has changed and it's actually a little fewer and further between. Mm-hmm. And so, yeah. And so that, that, you know, is, is, has been part of the challenge, which I'm curious as to if you experienced that also.

[00:24:27] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, I can definitely resonate with that.

Yes. 'cause it, it, it does feel so rare and then you're like, so I must have Yes, yes. Like, right, like, I feel you, that tunnel vision where you're like, it's happening. Uh, yeah. Again, I really wish I could be turned on more. And so that will be my lifelong journey of like, how do I feel that? But I appreciate your invitation too, of, it's not about the quantity, right?

It's about the quality at the end of the day. Right? You could just take shitty sex after shitty sex and that doesn't feel fulfilling at the end of the day. Right. And so I hear you of, of holding out for that. And then the, the ways that that scarcity can create so much attachment. And so I'm curious for you, how do you go through NRE then?

What are some of your signs that you're in it? And how do you take care of yourself when you're in that space?

[00:25:17] Evita: Um, wow. So the last time I experienced NRE. Uh, is these two people that I'm seeing currently. Mm-hmm. One of them, my feelings for them got very intense very quickly.

[00:25:31] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:25:31] Evita: But the way that relationship functioned allowed me to just not be able to go off the deep end.

And, and both my circumstances, it actually was that way. So, uh, both of the people, like I said, they're long distance. One of them is across the country. One of them lives in New York City, but they don't have a lot of time. It takes a lot for us to see each other. And so even though, and that relationship was a lot more of a slow burn, it really was.

Which I have, I don't have a lot of experience with slow burn. I'm new to the slow burn journey. Mm-hmm. I'm very new to the slow burn journey.

[00:26:04] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:26:04] Evita: So, but when I'm in NREI am an extremely intense person. When I get really locked onto a person, I'm very intense. And so what I find is that I have to learn how to.

Be my authentic self, because I think that's one of the things that's challenging with NRE is I'm like, this is just genuinely how I am. Yeah. I'm a very excitable person. Yes. I'm a very effusive person. Yes. Like all of those things are true. And also, um, I have to also like ke keep that in my wise mind space and go, how are we engaging this wisely?

So I think some of it age has helped me, you know, with that and just getting older, uh, you know, my energy, your energy wanes as you age, you know? Mm-hmm. So you just don't have the energy for a lot of those rollercoaster emotions.

[00:26:53] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:26:53] Evita: Um, I've developed more check-in, uh, you know, processes with myself in terms of like, you know, Vida, we're having a really big feeling about this, you know, what expectations did we have that maybe we didn't communicate?

[00:27:06] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:27:06] Evita: Or like, what ideas or assumptions did we have about what was happening here that may not actually match what's going on in reality? Also having to check myself in terms of, 'cause my NRE space is just give, give, give, give, give, give, give, give, give, give all the attention, give all the affection, give all the, you know?

Sure. And I'm having to like step back and go, Vita, we gotta learn how to receive. You know, we gotta also, how to learn how to like, like how to observe how this person is showing up and go, does that work for, you know, what you're bringing to what's going on? And so, you know, I'm fortunate that, you know, the last few NRE experiences that I've had have been such that while I may have had these really intense emotions, there were just things in place that didn't really allow me to really fall into them by way of just not having as proximity to the people.

And that allowed me the space to get those pauses, to go check in and go, Hey, what's going on? What's happening? Um, and so that I was, uh, you know, showing up in a way that like, you know, wasn't. Uh, sort of shocking my nervous system or having me, you know, just completely out of whack. Um, and so, yeah. And then also learning too.

Um, one of the things that I've had to learn about my NRE space is that I can often not think about the other person's experience

[00:28:30] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:28:30] Evita: Of their relationship of me, because I'm very caught in how I wanna love, how, I wanna love how I want things to look, how I wanna, I wanna shower you, I wanna whatever, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I was finding in some of the circumstances that I was in with these two people. Uh, they're both, uh, avoidant. They both have, you know, different relationship trauma, but their relationship traumas are very similar.

[00:28:49] Dr. Nicole: Sure.

[00:28:50] Evita: And what I was finding is I would find myself in situations where I was just being my effusive self, and they were actually becoming very activated on the other end of that because it was reminding them of circumstances where other people were really excited about their relationship with them.

Sure. But that excitement came with this, uh, like unexpressed, ulterior, uh, desire for them to also be that person with them, you know? Sure, sure, sure. And when they weren't, then all of a sudden, now they're the bad guy, they're the villain, you know? And so, so they were having these moments where they were getting activated by, you know, my effusiveness.

And fortunately, you know, they both, you know, possess the ability to be able to check in with me and say, Hey, this is what's going on for me. And me being like, oh my goodness, thank you for sharing that with me. But yeah, but now I'm a lot more keenly aware of like, you know, there's someone else's, there's someone else's experience on the other end of your NRE.

And if we bring it to the case of polyamory, not only is there someone else's experience on the other end of the MRE, but there's partners experiences on the side of your MNRE, you know, and having to sit with that, you know, and go and, and you know, being conscientious that not only is this person having an experience of my NRE, and even if they're in it with me, they're still on the other end of it, but also there's someone else's experience on the side of my NRE and I have to think about that person as well, because it also is impacting them too.

[00:30:14] Dr. Nicole: Yes, absolutely, absolutely. The webs. And so in the most, I think ideal of context, the practice of more expansive relating, like polyamory, it brings more awareness to that, right? Because you start to, I ideally, you know, obviously that is not always the case. There are bad player, you know, there are people learning in all types of relationships, let's just say that.

But ideally, we have this growth. You know, journey where we start to think, wow, there's so many other people, I should be conscious of how my actions impact the whole web, the whole ecosystem. Not just this one relationship and what feels good for me, but how can we do something that's sustainable for the whole ecosystem?

And I'm glad the universe prevented, do some situations where you could have that bit of like control and space to be able to regulate. Because I feel like that's such a common thing and something I definitely experienced of going like full into, you know, NRE and then being devastated on the other side.

And especially I think with polyamory, more expansive relating even maybe that first triad that you went into when you're tapping into these, uh, more expansive ways of relating. There's so much. Possibility and joy and optimism, and you're like, wow, we're breaking the mold. We're doing something, something new.

This is so radical. Look at us. Right. And I feel like there's often this optimism that comes with your first experience, kinda like your first time doing a psychedelic wow.

[00:31:43] Evita: You know, literally was about to say that. It's almost like, you know, going from, you know, taking a microdose maybe to now, like, we're actually gonna do like a heroic dose sometimes.

And the more expansive it is, the more heroic of the dose it is. And so when the joy is there, it's sublime, it's blissful. It's, it's, it's so large. It's, it's it's divine. It's like you feel close to God. You know, all these things that you hear people talk about in psycho experiences, but the bad trips.

The bad trips are also so like pit of hell.

[00:32:19] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:32:19] Evita: Debts of despair and like that is in the space also.

[00:32:24] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm a rock climber and there have been times where I've dated different people in that space. And so when there was conflict and it's a shared community space, and I'm like. How many people are stressed today?

1, 2, 3, 4, 5. You know, it's like the joy is great when we're all like thrive. Wow. Oh my God, I'm so loved. Look at how many people kissed me goodbye. This is so magical. And then, yeah, when the conflict hits, you're like, oh, dear God, I could stress here and here and here and here. And then I just had to keep telling myself like, it's okay.

I'm, I'm at home. None of this is even happening. Like there are so many different relations, like what's here in the reality? 'cause you can just start to get so lost in so many different relationships. And of course we all have multiple relationships, but there is something to the intensity and the complexity of romance and sexuality and what that does for our neurochemical soup up here in the brain.

And therefore the weight of these experiences that we, we have when there is conflict.

[00:33:27] Evita: Yeah, I just got finished reading, uh, love In a Fucked Up World by Dean Spade. I know you've had Dean on the show. Yes, yes. Um, that, so I was like having a fan girl moment because I was like, oh my God, I'm gonna be on the same show as like Dean Spade.

Oh my goodness. Like

[00:33:38] Dr. Nicole: Dean is amazing, excited. I love their book. Yeah.

[00:33:40] Evita: But, right. Yeah. I just finished reading it and, you know, that was one of the things that they talked about in the book is just, there's just something about our romantic relationships that they just, they, they, they activate some of our most intense, intense woundings, our most intense fears, our most intense, you know, shapings.

Yeah. And, and so in one relationship you can experience that. And so then when now you're multiplying and having multiple relationships where you're going to be experiencing that, like I said, it, it is that like heroic dose

[00:34:15] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:34:15] Evita: Of, of psychedelics, uh, because it's like, wow, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're taking it, you know, to the, we're taking it to the, to the stratosphere.

[00:34:22] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:34:22] Evita: In terms of, of, of having these experiences and knowing that these things are going to happen.

[00:34:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And this is why I move so slow these days.

[00:34:32] Evita: Right, right. That was part of my slowness, my slower journey is there's so many more moving pieces to non monogamy. Yeah. There's so many more points of data that I feel I had to experience in, in monogamy.

Not saying that there's not, I feel like all relationship spaces, no matter what you're practicing, would actually benefit from intentionality. And that is what's missing for, to me in relating is intentionality. You know, we're not really checking in with ourselves and going. You know, is this how I really want to be with this person?

Is this alignment with my values? Is this something I genuinely want with this person? Yeah. You know, are we collaborating with each other to see what our authentic overlaps are? We're just kind of going into our relationship spaces in this very autopilot kind of way. Yep. And so for me, that slowing down has been, you know, a a, a new learning 'cause I was, I'm a very hot and heavy, I'm a Pisces.

Yeah.

[00:35:24] Dr. Nicole: Hell yeah.

[00:35:24] Evita: We on a passionate love affair. Yeah. And so when I met people and I was into 'em, I was like, okay, I'm into you. That's it. We do it. Let's be in love. Okay. Yeah. Like, I'm like, I'm in love with you on the first date, so what's going on?

[00:35:33] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:35:33] Evita: And now I'm like, no, we have to slow down. We have to slow down.

We have to get a feel for a person. We have to talk more, you know, we have to check in with each other. And this current relationship. Uh, that I'm in the newer one. It's been very interesting journey for me because it's been very intentional. We started dating in like January.

[00:35:55] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:55] Evita: And so now here we are in August.

Mm. And at every like point we've had this check-in and going, Hey, I want to do this. Hey, you know, how about this? How do you feel about this? I remember the first time I, uh, 'cause they were someone that I knew for a very long time. I had a long crush on them for a really long time. And we connected, uh, we found out that we kind of lived in a similar area and so we connected with one another, but when we connected it was very much just on, oh my God, I can't believe I, you know, rediscovered you, let's hang out.

We spent some time together and then like, I kind of expressed to them that I'm like, Hey, I'm complete. If we just, you know, forge a friendship, but if there's other opportunities for us to engage in some other ways, I'd like to, you know, go on record and be direct and say that I'm interested in you in that way.

Mm-hmm. And they asked me this great question. They said, you know, that's available. But they said, before we do that, you know, what is your intent, your expectation, and your meaning? And I was like,

[00:36:47] Dr. Nicole: wow. Yes, yes.

[00:36:49] Evita: Right. And so, like, I, so I had to sit with it and think about it, answer questions. And so a along the way, you know, different milestone, we've checked in and it's as much as I realized that it's, it's healthy, it's foreign, you know?

And so that has been, you know, learning how to do it. And then also I think we have internalized this idea that if you have to do that, it's not real. Because if you didn't, if you didn't have to do that, like, you know, if you didn't have to check in, if you didn't, you know, it, it, you know, that's when it's real.

Y'all just, you just, they just get me. Yeah. They just get me. Yeah. You know?

[00:37:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:37:21] Evita: Yeah. And so like having to fight that, you know, sort of narrative of going, you know, the reason why we have to do this is because, you know, our a desire for one another, our attraction for another is actually not real. We're, we're forcing it, or, you know what I mean?

All of the having to, to combat sort of those stories in my mind.

[00:37:39] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. All of the internalized narratives that live within the unconscious often, right. Where someone will ask you that question and, and sometimes it might not even land in a good space 'cause you're like, yeah, why do we have to talk about these things?

And your body can kind of coil, but that's so much of the internalized messaging around romance, right? And yeah. I, I find being on the same page, hot. I find that really hot actually. You know what I mean? And so when we can get together to say, Hey, what are you looking for in this relationship? Cool, I'm looking for this.

How does that sound for you? It's like, wow, that kind of intimacy turns me on. 'cause we're seeing one another. And the same thing with sex, right? It's like, what kind of play do you want? It's so hot to be able to name that, have that clarity, know where the boundary is, know what the consent is, all of those pieces.

I find that really erotic. But yeah, my past self probably would've been like, no, the flow. Why do we have to talk about anything with romance? You just come to together, right? And so like I can have some empathy for the people who are there. 'cause like that's where I was, right? But the deeper I go down this rabbit hole journey, the more I'm like, please talk to me.

Please tell me a no. Please show me. You can say a no, you know, like

[00:38:56] Evita: Right. I really love actually that you brought that up because I have like a new circumstance with like a, someone that I'm like entertaining as like a fuck buddy, you know?

[00:39:04] Dr. Nicole: Sure, sure.

[00:39:05] Evita: And, um, it's a's. Cisgender heterosexual man, which I don't date cisgender heterosexual men anymore.

I'm, I'm good. Yeah. Maybe I'm like, I've had like 30 years of that. I'm good. I'm good. But, but I like having sex with him. I do, you know, I do, I do like having sex with him. Mm-hmm. So most of the time when I'm entertaining a cisgender heterosexual man, it's for sex, you know?

[00:39:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:25] Evita: So I have this new fuck buddy.

Uh, but what I'm struggling with in that connection is I don't feel as he, he's attractive. I like his body, you know, that kind of thing. I don't feel as turned on by him, which is why I like that. You mentioned this thing about the turn on is because in the times when I've tried to do that and tried to have those conversations with him and tried to talk about our pleasure and tried to say, Hey, I need to check in with you about this, or Can you give me more, um, uh, information about what it is that you like?

Or, you know, can we talk about these things or can we have a comment? I remember the first time I really like, you know, we had sex the first time. It was okay. It wasn't terrible, but, you know, but it was enough to, you know, it was enough to warrant a, a a a a, a second interview, you know, second interview.

And, uh, but you know, the next time he came over I said, Hey, can we have a conversation about sex? Mm-hmm. Because I, I need to talk to you about some things that happened while we were having sex that like, I need to not continue on in.

[00:40:22] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:40:22] Evita: And, you know, his initial reaction to that was like, oh no, this is gonna be bad.

And I was just like,

[00:40:29] Dr. Nicole: that's a strike for me

[00:40:29] Evita: and what I'm I've, yeah. And what I've, what I've noticed throughout the, throughout the, the, the course of the, the, you know, the connection with them is, you know, having those conversations and, and not to say that like he's a bad person at all, by no stretch of the word, it's not.

But he comes from the normie world.

[00:40:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm mm-hmm.

[00:40:47] Evita: And in the normie world. They are not having these conversations.

[00:40:51] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah,

[00:40:53] Evita: absolutely. They're not talking about these things. So I don't even think it's a, a, a, a lack of desire or some kind of maliciousness.

[00:40:59] Dr. Nicole: No, not at all.

[00:41:00] Evita: It's literally not having the ability.

They, they just, that it's foreign. They don't have the ability, and so I'm finding that I'm bucking up against and on top of just bucking up against that heterosexual man. What I want in bed is most, you know, is, is the more thing or what my ideas of how this is supposed to go is what is supposed to happen.

And then trying to like, engage him in these conversations. And what I'm finding is that I'm just not as, I'm not as turned on, you know, as I, I feel like I would be, you know, in situations where I feel like there's a lot more of a, of a matching in terms of we can talk about these things, we can have these conversations.

Yes, you can articulate your pleasure, you know? Mm-hmm. And you can tell me, this works for me. This doesn't work for me. Yes. I like this. And not only that, you can receive it when I articulate mine, when I tell you, Hey, like I, I was actually talking to my partner about this recently. And, um, uh, someone had, it was a video and it was Leslie, uh, she was a comedian and she was saying, you know, she asked the audience what do, what is something that men need to stop doing in bed?

And somebody yelled out, stop asking me if I came right. So everybody like, you know, laughed about that and she was like, yeah. 'cause if I came you would know.

[00:42:07] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah.

[00:42:07] Evita: And so I told my partner, I said, when a man asked me that, the next thing I'm gonna ask me is, did you ever ask me what you needed to do in order to make me come?

Because if you never asked me what you needed to do in order to make me come, you are asking me the wrong question.

[00:42:21] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:42:23] Evita: Why are you asking me if I came, if you never asked me what I needed to do, come I find that, you know, a lot of times they come to the space and I'm not even gonna make that gender specific because I'm having my own journey.

[00:42:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:42:32] Evita: I just read of the Art of Giving and receiving by Betty Martin. Mm. So amazing. I'm having my own journey with needing to face my egoic sort of identification with I'm good in bed.

[00:42:42] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:42:43] Evita: Because we bring that into our sexual space, and oftentimes a person is sitting there telling you, this is what I need in order to be pleased.

But because we have in our mind what pleasing someone looks like, we can go Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we completely go back to what it is that we're doing. And the person's like, I, I, I told you, I told you this is what I wanted. Yeah. And so I find that I'm kind of having that experience with the person too, to where I'm like, I told you this is what I was into.

I'm literally telling you this is what I like. And it's like, it's just not clicking. Because I think, you know, they just have in their mind that this is what I wanna be like in bed. This is my image of myself in bed, and this is my image of what pleases a woman in bed. And I'm like, but that has nothing to do with what I'm actually communicating to you.

Um, that I, you know, like, and so I, you know, I'm learning how now I'm, I'm, I'm in a journey of learning. How to get turned on by safety.

[00:43:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:36] Evita: How to get turned on by clarity. Mm. How to get turned on by these conversations, like how to bring my turn on into that space. Mm.

[00:43:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:47] Evita: Mm-hmm. Um, and it's, it's, it's still a work.

[00:43:50] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. I hear you. Having the empathy for the people that are in that space, it's not malicious. It's truly a lack of knowledge and a reality of the systems that have created this world that we're in. Right. And also feeling that disconnect. We're not able to feel that erotic pulse. I, I would imagine.

Because yeah, there's not enough space for you to be vulnerable to bring yourself into that dynamic and to be seen in that way, and then to also see them, right. They're really not bringing any of that. They're kind of putting that wall there. Why do we even talk? And so that can be really hard to. Feel the energy exchange of the dynamic, right?

The sex or, or not. It's hard to feel that in a conversation, let alone once we're pulling in our bodies and movement together, there's gotta be that vulnerability. And so I feel like, yeah, it's really hard to find that space to be erotic. And so hence as we started, you know, it, it means that we are less attracted to more people, right?

Because the standards for what we're looking for are just getting so much higher, which like, fuck yeah. Um, but also again, like we said, the grief with that. And I think as you were saying, getting more attracted to safety, you know? It's like, uh, the body needs time to find that to be an erotic space, right?

Depending on where you start from. Like if I'm working with someone who has a domestic violence background, there's often a attraction to the intense ups and downs because that's what their body's used to and is coded as love. And so if you were to provide a stable person for them, they would say, this feels boring.

What is this? Right? And so it actually takes a time, um, and healing through relationship for the nervous system to actually find that to be safe and erotic. And so I hear you, you know, regardless of whether you have a domestic violence background, the reality is we all have been messed up by the trauma of this society.

And so the communication in the bedroom, the dungeon, wherever you're playing out in the woods, right? That is something that a lot of us, our nervous system has not attuned to, to find that safe, right? And so it's taking time for us to start being in spaces where we're able to slowly explore that, slowly explore that.

And then when you look back on your journey, you know, it's all these small moments, but you look back and you're like, wow. Things have changed a lot.

[00:46:09] Evita: Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a quote that a friend of mine always says, and it's the higher you go up on the elevator, the less people there are that are on it.

And I, so I struggle with that quote, not because I don't believe it's true 'cause Absolutely is, but because of the human, you know, humans ranking, you know, when we think of high, we think of above.

[00:46:30] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:46:30] Evita: Better You, those kinds of things just kind of get, kind of coded into that. And so I've like changed it to go, the further we go out in Deep Ply, the less people there are that are out there.

[00:46:39] Dr. Nicole: I love that.

[00:46:39] Evita: Um, so Deep Playa is, if you go to Burning Man, you know, deep playa is like the deep desert.

[00:46:43] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:46:43] Evita: And the further you go out in Deep Playa, the less camps there are, there's even a camp at the end that goes, this is the end of the world, you know? Yeah. Yeah. But the, the deeper you go into the desert, the less people there are that are out there.

And so I was just literally talking to my Metamore about this. 'cause I was saying that. One of the things that I sometimes struggle with about, you know, my journey in terms of moving through my relationships and wanting to address a lot of these things that I see are like, Hey, this is not really good.

This is a actually the antithesis. Yeah. To authentic connection and trying to make those shifts. You know, I did that ostensibly to improve the quality of the relationship experiences that I could have, and in some ways that has occurred. But what it has also done is made it so that there are less people that I can interact with because not a lot of people are doing that work and, and no judgment to them.

Like, you know what I mean? Really not, you know, like a lot of that stuff is, a lot of stuff is access, a lot of that stuff is, you know, access to resources. Right. You know, uh, um, you know, what things have you been exposed to? What environments are you in? Like, not all this stuff is just a willful decision to just not, you know?

Right, exactly. And so I'm not saying it that way. So, you know, I, you know, I don't want this to get interpreted as like, well, I'm just so to that, or, you know, these kid, you know, it's really not that, you know, my life has shown up in such a way that I've been fortunate enough to have access to the resources, to be able to have these ideas presented to me in a way that I was able to receive and land.

Yeah. And then also because of the work that I do, yes. You know, it allows me the space to develop those things because I can't be out here giving people stuff that I don't have, you know? Right. So I have to continue to grow and develop myself. But what that does, you know, result in, is sometimes it can be really challenging to kind of find people that can meet you, you know?

Um, maybe not entirely at that, you know, level because, you know, there's a lot of ways where there's just dials. And so your dial may be here, and my dial may be here on this thing, but my dial may be here and your dial may be here on something else.

[00:48:38] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:48:39] Evita: Uh, but I often find that it, it, it results in, there's just less people that really, you know, hit the targets in terms of like, you know what I genuine what, what is genuinely like satisfactory and fulfilling for me.

[00:48:50] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:48:51] Evita: And I'm no longer okay with going, well, this is something, you know, I love that feel. That's the, the, yeah. I'm not, well, this is something I still have my moments, you know, but I, I then I come back to, you know, I'm just no longer okay. As well. This ain't it, but it's something. I, I'm trying to move away from, from that.

[00:49:09] Dr. Nicole: Mm, mm-hmm. Powerful. I love that. Go deeper. Yes. Yes, please. Right. I feel you in that journey. And I, I think about also the ways in which, as a mother, that's not an identity that I have yet to explore, maybe down the line, but I have to hold space for you in the context of what it means to be speaking of all of these concepts as well as the mother identity and so much of the Madonna and the horror complex and what it means to walk through that and own how important eroticism is to you.

[00:49:45] Evita: Yeah. So I have never felt a desire to, uh, hide that from my children. Amazing. So I, I've had so many. Friends who got to the end of their parents' life and found out things about their parents and go on. Mm-hmm. I, I, I did not know who they were.

[00:50:06] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:50:07] Evita: I did not know who this person was, and so I've never wanted my children to have an experience that they did not know who their mother was.

I always wanted my children to know exactly who their mama is. Mm-hmm. I also always wanted my children to know that before I was your mama, I was avita and I'm not gonna lose Avita. Yes. Being your mom, I'm not doing that. You know? Mm-hmm. So, because I, I didn't want that for them, you know, and so I can't say I don't want that for them if I don't model that.

[00:50:33] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:50:33] Evita: I also feel like my mom didn't really model that. I think she was my first. Uh, experience of that. My mom, you, you know, she, she, she took care of us. You know, she cared for us, but she was also very much who she was. And so she modeled that she didn't lose herself in motherhood with us. Yeah, good. And I do appreciate that she set that example.

Um, I also wanted to have, and I wanted my children to feel safe, to be open with me about who they were.

[00:50:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:59] Evita: And I think in a lot of times in relationships, we expect things from people that we're not giving and then we're wondering why we're not giving back. So people like, I want my child to be open with me in a share and whatever.

And I'm like, okay, are you open with them? I mean, obviously in an age appropriate child appropriate way. I'm not calling my kids going, oh my god, mom had a foursome last night. Right. You know, obviously those are not conversations that I'm having with my kids. Mm-hmm. But I wanted my kids to be able to say, Hey, mom.

I have this thing that I need to talk to you about and can I talk to you about it and feel like they could do that. And so that was very important to me.

[00:51:29] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:51:30] Evita: Um, and so, yeah. And so, and I'm also grateful that I did that because I do have children that for the most part, you know, they come to me and they talk to me about things.

I've had some very wonderful conversations. 'cause my kids are teens, so they're getting to that age where they're having sex.

[00:51:46] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:51:46] Evita: They're, you know, trying on these adult activities and mm-hmm. And, you know, I wanted to, for their safety sake, I'm like, I really need to make sure that an open channel is available here.

Because I would want them to be able to say, Hey mom, this thing happened to me. I don't know how to feel about it. Can, can you, can I talk to you about it? And not feel like, you know, they couldn't come to me about that because I'm like, that literally could be the difference between them, you know, really exposing themselves to something harmful or not.

Mm-hmm. Um, and so, yeah. And so that was very important to me that my children knew who I was, um, and that I was open with them about who I was. Yes. And that I also instilled in them that, you know, sexuality. Mm. Your relationships, how you wanna love whatever is nothing to be ashamed of. It's nothing to hide.

[00:52:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. We love that generational change. I'll be excited to see what sort of liberation they're living into when they're your age. Right? The empowerment from that and the model of really what you're studying for them, of what is possible for their own life,

[00:52:43] Evita: right?

[00:52:44] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:45] Evita: Very much so. So, yeah.

Do you wanna have children

[00:52:48] Dr. Nicole: woohoohoo? Well, so, haha, what a question, right? Um, so I'm open to it. I feel like I'm in a lot of student loans right now, which makes it think like, how could I, you know, that's like a, that's a very American dream. Woo. Um, so that, that's one piece of that. Um, growing up, very conservative Christian, it was always a yes.

Always a yes. 'cause that's really the only thing that you can do to be a meaningful woman in that paradigm. Right? Uh, and so then, so once I got out of that, I was very against it. But stepping into queerness definitely unlocked different models of ways of relating where that could be possible. And so when I think about it, I, I do find it like a beautiful space to develop relationships.

I nerd out in relationships so hard, and what a beautiful space to be able to cultivate that. I think where I'm at now, I gotta get outta these loans and get a bit more like stability, where I could even think about doing something like that. I need a circle of lovers. Who are committed.

[00:53:43] Evita: Yeah.

[00:53:44] Dr. Nicole: I'm not doing that by myself.

Yeah,

[00:53:46] Evita: yeah, yeah. Parenting is, I always say it's like the uh, first line in the tale of two cities. It was the best of times. It was the worst of times. And I just wanna preface this by saying I have amazing childrens, like they are like to the point where I consider it like a specific gift from the universe of just how wonderful, what wonderful human beings my children are.

They're incredible human beings. And also, I don't know that I ever really wanted to have kids. I think I. Thought I was supposed to want to have kids, right. Because I'm an assigned female at birth. Right. And I was socialized as a woman. Mm-hmm. But I don't know that I ever really wanted to have kids. When I think about it, I'm like, you know, did I ever really, was that ever like a genuine

[00:54:29] Dr. Nicole: conscious,

[00:54:29] Evita: like from me desire, you know?

[00:54:31] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:54:32] Evita: And, um, and so I have different friends in different spaces to where they're like old, you know, older. They're in their thirties, they're kind of having a, you know, if I don't do this, I may not. You know, and so, right. And so they talked to me about that. I had one friend, um, who, uh, because of a circumstance in her, uh, body, you know, she, you know, got the news that she was not gonna be able to have kids.

[00:54:52] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:54:52] Evita: Um, and so, um, and uh, so I, you know, I have a friend, like I said, that, you know, she was kind of like, you know, got told that she wasn't gonna be able to have children. And she went through a lot of grief about that, which is absolutely 100% valid. Uh, but it was something that I, uh, I don't wanna say I struggled to be empathetic to, but I was kind of like.

Like, I'm like, okay, but like, you get to keep your money and like, you don't have to worry about that. You know, like, like, like the immense, like, you know Yeah. Like the immense weight of preparing a human

[00:55:26] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:55:27] Evita: Or the human experience.

[00:55:28] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:55:29] Evita: And all that goes into, you know, that, that thing, it, it's, it's an immense weight.

And I tell people, like when they're grappling with that space is, I'm like, it is a human experience, motherhood, and it is a profound human experience. And there are, there are experiences and lessons and wisdoms and feelings and things that you will have in that profound human experience that you can't have anywhere else.

That is true. Yeah. And also there are so many profound human experiences, right. And some profound human experiences. You, if you make this one, you can't have that one.

[00:56:06] Dr. Nicole: Right. Exactly.

[00:56:09] Evita: And so, you know, I think we place so much emphasis on you have to have to do this. And I mean, I get it. It's, you know, to keep the species alive.

Right. So I understand, right. You know, that there's that, that sort of biological element to it. But, um, you know, the, the way we attach all of this, well, if I don't do this, my life is not gonna lack meaning. Or, and I'm like, you know, no. Like, you can, and you can engage that energy in different ways. Mm-hmm.

You can care for your nieces and nephews. You can care for the children of your neighbors. You can, you know, volunteer with kids while it's not the same thing. That dynamic of instilling into a child is not just. In this container, it's not.

[00:56:52] Dr. Nicole: Right. Right, right, right. It's another way where we need to look more expansively of what it means to be in relationship.

Right. Family and children being a huge piece of this. And so I'm curious for you, how did those conversations go when you were talking to them about polyamory or even swinging? How did that go when you had those?

[00:57:13] Evita: They were really young.

[00:57:14] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:57:14] Evita: They were eight. Eight and five mm. And how we ended up telling them about being non-monogamous is because we were in that triad and the person that we were with was spending a lot of time at our place.

[00:57:26] Dr. Nicole: Makes sense.

[00:57:27] Evita: And so they were seeing her a lot. And initially we weren't going to tell them what we were doing, but I am of the opinion that as adults, something that we do often with kids is we insult their intelligence so much. Yeah. So much. We just do not give them credit for how sharp. And perceptive.

They are. And children are very sharp and they're very perceptive. And it began to feel like just saying, Hey, this is just Mommy and Daddy's friend was insulting their intelligence because the way she interacted with us was very different than the way our friends and our other friends that were actually just friends were interacting with us.

And so that was the moment where I was like, Hey guys, I think we need to say a thing. And obviously we did so in an age appropriate way, but it was very interesting because I even had to come out to my children as bisexual. 'cause that was something that they didn't even know about me at the time. 'cause they had no, they had no real need to know it, you know?

Sure. With their dad.

[00:58:20] Dr. Nicole: Totally.

[00:58:21] Evita: You know, so there was no, there was no need for them to know that I was, I was bisexual. Um, and so, you know, I told 'em about me being bisexual. I told them about, you know, uh, we told them about the, the person becoming our partner.

[00:58:32] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:58:32] Evita: Um, and they were just like, okay. Yeah. And then that was kind of it.

And so I always say people, kids won't make shit weird if you don't make it weird, you know?

[00:58:40] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:58:40] Evita: So we just didn't make it weird. We was just like, this is what's happening. That's it. And that's kind of it. Um, and then, you know, from there, so at this point we've been non monogamous now, more longer than they, you know, we've been monogamous, so I don't even know if they remember Oh yeah.

Mom and dad ever being monogamous because, you know, they were so young when we were non monogamous. And funny enough, they're all monogamous. That's what they're all saying that they are, is all monogamous. I'm trying not to look at that as, because like I said, that first relationship was volatile. You know, I'm trying not to look at that as like we turned them off to it.

[00:59:13] Dr. Nicole: Oh no. Yeah.

[00:59:14] Evita: You know, I'm like, did was it something about what we, you know, how we showed up and how we interfaced with it that made them go, I don't wanna know parts of that. Mm. But I also have to remind myself that one of the things that I say to myself is I was not trying to raise non-monogamous children.

Yeah. I was trying to raise children that knew that there were options.

[00:59:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Yes.

[00:59:37] Evita: And so these are, this is the options. So my children knew that there were options and the option that they have chosen. It is monogamy so far.

[00:59:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:46] Evita: Okay.

[00:59:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. There's so much liberation in there. Like you were saying, with having kids or not having kids, that liberation is found in the choice to go either way without judgment or stigma.

And so I hear you creating that space for your children to go either way without judgment or stigma. And that's really all we can want for, for culturally, ideally, right. Is just that space, uh, of choice with these things. And so I hear you in terms of celebrating that they're able to, to see that and have that choice point in it.

[01:00:19] Evita: Yeah. So, uh, so yeah, so I am sometimes like, you know, I, I, I, I would've thought at least one would have come turn out that way, but they, they all seem to be straight. Yeah. They all seem to be monogamous. And so I'm like, okay, you know, these are my kids. And you know, I, like I said, I wanted them to know that there was options.

I didn't want to raise non-monogamous kids. I wanted to raise children that know you have options. Yeah. And I actually had something come up with my son recently that I'm actually very grateful for. And I feel like our non-monogamy set the stage for this to happen. Yeah, he did. My son just recently went through a breakup.

He's 19 and, um, he was with his girlfriend for close to two years and he really loves her. He led her child. Okay. He did. But, um, she was very jealous.

[01:01:01] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:01:01] Evita: And it was a long distance relationship, so there's that, you know, element to it. Sure. And then I also think she has some infidelity trauma in her, uh, you know, in her family of origin.

So I think that's also in the space.

[01:01:12] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:01:13] Evita: And my son met some, uh, he met a boy and a girl at work. And they were like, Hey, you look really cool. We love to connect with you. And so they requested to follow him on Instagram. And so he was like, yeah, sure. And so he followed the other person on Instagram, follow the girl on Instagram, and she really got upset about it.

Oh. And was like, I don't, yeah. She was like, I don't, I don't feel, yeah, I don't feel comfortable with you following this person on Instagram and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, and so my hu my, uh, not my husband, my, um, son called me and was like, Hey mom, can I talk to you about this? She's really upset about this.

I don't know how to feel, you know, I, he was like, I want to, you know, honor her. But I'm like, I, I don't feel like I'm way off base, you know, about this. He was like, they're just cool people, you know, and he's very trustworthy. My son is a very trustworthy person. Like I, I know that, you know, so he's just, he's a, he's a standup guy.

He really is a standup guy.

[01:02:01] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:02:02] Evita: And, um, and he's not even that kind of guy. Like, he never was a teenage boy that was talking to all the girls and having, that's just not who he is. Sure. He's very handsome.

[01:02:11] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:02:11] Evita: Okay. But that's just not who he is.

[01:02:13] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Good ethics.

[01:02:13] Evita: and so, um, and so he was like, I'm struggling with this, you know, can you gimme some advice about this?

Mm-hmm. And so I kind of, you know, talked to him about it and I said, I, you know, I, I get where she's coming from and, you know, I would validate, you know, that she's feeling insecure and let her know that she can trust you. Mm-hmm. I said, but you know, you, you don't want to set a paradigm where you are going.

Your actions are gonna be dictated by her insecurities. You know, you just don't wanna set that as a paradigm. And you know, her big issue is she doesn't trust you. And that's not gonna change if you unfollow the girl. So you need to really have a conversation with her around, I'm willing to support you in terms of if you need to feel more safety in our relationship, you need to feel more security, whatever, blah, blah, blah.

Like, we can talk about that and we can come up with ways that I can give you that, but I'm not gonna give you that this way, you know, I'm not gonna give you that in a way of like dictating, you know, who I can follow, you know? Yeah. I'm not gonna do that, you know? Yeah. And I told him, I said, you know, you have to understand that your vantage point for relationship comes from watching your mom and dad not do that to each other.

You know, and not feel like we got to dictate what the other person did with someone else because of our, you know, feelings or misgivings about it. You, that that's your relational baseline and what you are coming at this with. She's coming at this with something different.

[01:03:28] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:03:28] Evita: So, and it ended up, you know, she, she didn't, she couldn't get over it.

[01:03:32] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:03:32] Evita: Um, and so they broke up. And so when I asked them about it, I said, Hey, how are you doing? Uh, his response, and I was so proud of him, and it was so mature. He said, you know, I'm, I'm hurt by it. It sucks. He said, but I wouldn't want her to be in a relationship that she was unhappy with. Mm. He said, and I'm glad I have formed to my boundaries, because it was important to me that I was happy with how the relationship operated.

Mm-hmm. And I'm like, this is a 19-year-old.

[01:03:58] Dr. Nicole: The future is bright.

[01:03:59] Evita: Right. This is a 19-year-old Yes. This is my 19-year-old son, and this is what he's saying. You know?

[01:04:03] Dr. Nicole: Yes, yes, yes.

[01:04:05] Evita: And so, yeah. And so I am grateful that they have that, that, that baseline, because I do believe that in some ways it has. Set my children up to have healthier relationship experiences.

[01:04:16] Dr. Nicole: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And how your experiences with non-monogamy provide that context where I feel like often it gives you more language to notice these things and to have that, and so to be, uh, imparting that to your children and then seeing the fruits of that, you know, blossom as they're exploring their relationships.

It's a lot of the hard work that I'm sure you've gone in, like you said at the very beginning. The content that you're creating is the messages and the wisdom and the insight that you needed when you were going through the beginning of this. You know, it's almost like reaching back to speak to our younger selves because Lord knows I didn't know what I was doing.

You know, and I, and I feel like it's so powerful to be able to make that sort of content, both for your following and for your children, so that we can have a better world in the future where more expansive, relating and love and good skills with communication, right. Radical honesty. That's the world we want,

[01:05:14] Evita: right?

Yeah. Mm-hmm. We want people to be in embodied

[01:05:18] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:05:19] Evita: Intentional, conscientious,

[01:05:22] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[01:05:23] Evita: Ful.

[01:05:24] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:05:24] Evita: Relationships, we really do.

[01:05:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so another big piece that I wanted to ask you about was your journey with Compersion. I'm curious what that has looked like. Yeah, I hear it in that voice and that response already.

Mm-hmm.

[01:05:42] Evita: It's, it's interesting because I'm in an interesting space with my compersion journey right now. So like, yeah. And so, like I said, so I, you know, started, you know, creating content for Patreon. And one of the things that I'm working on now is, is kind of like a blog slash diary, whatever, of just the ethos of Compersion, you know.

And talking about my movements through it. And so when I first got into polyamory, you know, everybody's conversion, conversion, you know, I just, I just laugh, you know, my partner's away for two weeks on his dream vacation in France with this super hot other partner. I don't feel anything but joy.

[01:06:18] Dr. Nicole: Exactly.

[01:06:19] Evita: Love that for you. That was not my experience. Yeah. And so in the beginning I saw this, you know, I was like, this is a thing that I'm supposed to be feeling.

[01:06:30] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[01:06:30] Evita: But I definitely was not.

[01:06:32] Dr. Nicole: Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, totally.

[01:06:35] Evita: Um, and then I saw a lot of stuff about if you're not feeling compersion, you're doing it wrong.

Oh. You know, and so Compersion was very much just like gold standard, you know, if, if you can experience this, you know, then oh my God, you know, you're, you know, you've made it, you've won the polyamory, you know,

[01:06:52] Dr. Nicole: trophy,

[01:06:53] Evita: you know, sort of journey and like Yeah. Like, you're, you're a superstar. And, um, one of the things that I, I, I tell people a lot is, you know, we have this thing in polyamory where we say, you know, we feel like the pinnacle trait that someone needs to be good at polyamory is not being jealous.

And I'm like, that's a low bar.

[01:07:11] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:07:12] Evita: I said, because that is only one thing that can make polyamory somewhat easier for a person. Right. You can have not experienced jealousy, experienced compersion, but be terrible with time management.

[01:07:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:07:23] Evita: Be terrible with boundaries. Yeah. Be terrible, you know, with, with, uh, being present with your partner.

Absolutely.

[01:07:29] Dr. Nicole: And

[01:07:30] Evita: those things can ruin your polyamory. Just like being too jealous can

[01:07:33] Dr. Nicole: Yep, yep, yep.

[01:07:35] Evita: So, you know, when people were acting like, okay, well, because I can experience compersion, you know, I'm just this polyamory God, and if you can't experience compersion, something's wrong with you.

[01:07:45] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[01:07:46] Evita: And it was, it was, you know, hard for me for a while because I was like, I do not naturally feel this.

I'm, I'm not a naturally com conversive person at all. Mm-hmm. Period. Mm-hmm. I'm not.

[01:07:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:54] Evita: And so. Then I was like, okay, so number one, one of the things that I think we need to understand about Compersion is some people do naturally feel it. Okay, fine. That's great. Love that for pin a rose on your nose.

Okay. Um, having this idea that we are going to go from monogamy, which says that your partner interacting with someone is wrong, is bad. You should feel bad about it. You should feel bad about them. You should feel bad about yourself. You should feel bad about the other person. To then going, and I'm going to go into NoMy and I'm gonna flip a switch, and now I'm be happy about this.

Love my metamours, love them, my partners getting railed by five people. You know?

[01:08:35] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:08:35] Evita: I'm gonna love all of this. You know, like, that is naive at best. Delusional at worst. Yes. Yes. Like, I'm like, that's just, you know, so, so after a while of like going, okay, I don't feel this, and you know, and feeling how, you know, how I was like, this ain't.

Then I was like, okay, vi we need to, let's just focus on neutrality.

[01:08:55] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:08:57] Evita: Let's just get to neutral.

[01:08:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:08:59] Evita: To where I don't feel bad, I don't really feel good about it, I'm just neutral. You know, I'm able to hold that. My partners are gonna interact with other people, they're gonna have other experiences, and I'm not crashing out.

Every time it happens, I'm just like, okay, you know, lemme just get to, you know, neutral. Right? And so that was my, you know, movement towards it is, how can I get to neutral?

[01:09:16] Dr. Nicole: Love that.

[01:09:16] Evita: So I stopped making compersion a goal. I was like, okay, vi you don't, you don't feel this. And it's, it's not, and I'm gonna say this again and I'm gonna hold people saying why I say it.

It's not necessary for healthy, functional polyamory. It really isn't. It's nice when it's available or when it's present. It's not necessary for healthy, functional poly. Once I kind of got a hold of that, I'm like, okay, can I just get to neutrality?

[01:09:39] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:09:39] Evita: And then once I got to neutrality, for the most part,

[01:09:42] Dr. Nicole: right,

[01:09:42] Evita: then I began to explore if it was possible.

To move the needle a little bit more positivity.

[01:09:50] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:09:50] Evita: And what does that look like for me?

[01:09:51] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:09:53] Evita: What does that look like for me? What are some, what are some narratives in my mind that I can engage and create counter narratives for?

[01:10:01] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:10:02] Evita: You know, what can I explore about what comes up in my body?

[01:10:06] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:10:07] Evita: That I can, you know, interface with, you know, what are the, what, are there ways that I can maybe just move the needle? But I did that from a place of non-judgment.

[01:10:18] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[01:10:18] Evita: Huge. So if I couldn't move the needle, okay. And if I could, fantastic. Wonderful. But it wasn't like this thing where I was like, this was, you know, like this moral failing if I couldn't get there.

Right. It was just like, is it possible I tried to kind of engage, is it possible? And I found that I was able to sort of move the needle a little bit more towards positivity. And then I would have moments where I actually experienced just genuine conversion, where it wasn't about me having to like hack myself Right.

Right. To come forward. It just, it just, I, uh, came forward. I remember the very first time I felt it, and even as I'm telling this story, I'm actually like, I'm getting a little emotional, so I may, you know, get a little teary feel for it.

[01:10:53] Dr. Nicole: I, yeah. Embrace it.

[01:10:53] Evita: Um, my ex-husband had this partner who, it was the only partner he ever had that I really loved.

All the rest of them, people he was with. I was like, I don't like none of them girls. Okay. I was like, uh,

[01:11:04] Dr. Nicole: sure, sure.

[01:11:05] Evita: It was the only partner that he ever had that I really loved. I really liked her and to this day she and I are still, uh, you know, cool with each other.

[01:11:13] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:11:13] Evita: And, um, they're not even together anymore.

And they were together for a long time. They were guess about six or seven years.

[01:11:17] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:11:18] Evita: But, um. Uh, they had an anniversary and she and I were like chitchatting and, uh, he was gonna go up there, I think, and spend the, the time with her for an anniversary. So I think I message with her and I was like, oh, are you excited?

Y'all gonna spend your anniversary? You know? And she said to me, she said, yeah, I'm really excited. She said, this is my first time having an anniversary with a romantic partner. She had never had an anniversary with a romantic partner.

[01:11:43] Dr. Nicole: Whoa, whoa.

[01:11:46] Evita: She had never had a romantic, she had, she had never made it to a year

[01:11:49] Dr. Nicole: Wow.

[01:11:50] Evita: With a romantic partner. And it was her first time having an anniversary with a person. And I, I started to cry because I was like, I, I felt so much pride

[01:12:09] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:12:11] Evita: That my husband. Was able to give her that experience mm-hmm. Because I loved her so much. Mm-hmm. And I, she was such a, a great person, you know? Mm.

[01:12:21] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:12:22] Evita: And she said, you know, she said, what, what she said? She said, maybe I'm not broken after all. Oh. Is what she said, you know, because I can actually make it to a year with a person.

[01:12:31] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:12:33] Evita: And I, I felt so much joy

[01:12:36] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:12:37] Evita: That he was able to provide that for her and give her that experience. And that was my first time, like really feeling compersion to where I was just like so happy and so joyous.

[01:12:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:12:46] Evita: You know, that he was able to give that to her. And so, you know, I do have moments where compersion naturally comes from me. And, and certainly a lot more now. I think a lot of that has come with just being non-monogamous for a long time.

[01:12:58] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:12:58] Evita: And knowing, you know, that it is, this is safe, this can be safe, this can be, you know, a, a safe space.

And so I'm like, I don't have to feel bad about this. And so like that has come with that. Um, but I, uh, provided a, a quote for, uh, Marie Toin. Um, yes. Uh, what is the, was book was on the podcast. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I saw that. And so I was really excited. I I love Marie. She's rad. Yeah. And I provided a quote for that.

And one of the things that I told her that I have now understood about my relationship with Compersion is Compersion for me has graduated from being a feeling to an ethic.

[01:13:35] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Huge.

[01:13:37] Evita: So a lot of people talk about the compersion, the feeling, which as we know, feelings come and go.

[01:13:41] Dr. Nicole: Fleeting.

[01:13:42] Evita: Yeah.

Feelings are contextual.

[01:13:44] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:13:44] Evita: So that was one of the things that me and Marie talked about is how compersion is contextual, you know? Yeah. So it, it, it has a lot of context in relationships where I'm feeling well loved, where I'm feeling well fed, where I'm feeling satisfied and satiated. Yeah.

Compersion comes a lot easier.

[01:13:59] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:14:01] Evita: When I'm in a space in my life where my life is going well, my work, my relationships, whatever, blah, blah, compersion comes a lot easier. Right. I'm in a space right now where I have a lot of stuff going on, my emotional reserves below alone, and I'm finding that compersion is a lot harder for me right now.

And I'm going through that with my partner right now where we're discussing that because in the beginning of our relationship when we got together, one of the things that he enjoyed about being with me is I was so much more open than he had ever experienced before about his relationship with other people.

Sure. And so I'm just like, oh my God, tell me about it. Oh, why does that, you know?

[01:14:30] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:14:31] Evita: And now we've moved into a space where I'm like.

[01:14:34] Dr. Nicole: Yes, totally. I hear that. I hear that body experience for sure.

[01:14:38] Evita: Right. I am having that experience and we're having to navigate that when previously he'd known me to be this like really open person.

Yeah. But it's not because the relationship has changed a ton. It is because my life circumstances are changing and that my emotional reserves are not the same as they once were, as I was engaging my relationship with him. Mm-hmm. So, you know, I've learned to differentiate, you know, compersion from this feeling to compersion as an ethic.

I have an ethic of compersion and so for some people, compersion is very political. You know, it's saying that, you know, not only do I not want the dominant culture to dictate how I engage in sex and love and relationships, I also don't want the dominant culture to dictate how I feel and. Think about my sex and my love and my relationships.

Yeah. And one of the, the, the ideas of the dominant culture in terms of our sex and love and relationships is you are supposed to feel bad when your partner is with somebody else. Right. You're supposed to feel bad, you're supposed to feel jealous, you're supposed to feel angry, you're supposed to feel, you know, envy all of these things.

And so for some people, compersion is political, you know? Yes. It's like saying, I'm not gonna allow the dominant culture to tell me to even dictate how I feel and how I experience my relationships on the inside or on, on the outside. Yeah. So there's that element of it for me is like, how am I engaging in compersion as a political act

[01:15:56] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[01:15:57] Evita: Um, as a radical act and act of, you know, of radicalness. Um, and then also how am I engaging in and compersion as an ethic mm-hmm. To where it's like, even if the feeling is not present, I don't feel coersive, but what would I do stemming from

[01:16:14] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:16:15] Evita: My value of compersion.

[01:16:16] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Huge. Huge.

[01:16:19] Evita: And what does that look like?

And so now I'm, I'm less concerned about do I feel compersion because that has, that comes and goes for me. And I'm more concerned about am I acting in my value, in my principle, in my ethic of compersion.

[01:16:35] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:16:36] Evita: And so that's kind of the space that I'm in now and why that I've found that that is so important is because what I've noticed and what I've observed from the natural compersion crowd.

[01:16:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:16:47] Evita: Which no judgment on them. Shout out to y'all. We love y'all. Okay. Like I was saying, you could bottle that shit up and sell it. Please do. Because we need, please do. Okay. Loving appeal. Please do we need it. Right. But what I've noticed from the Compersion is natural crowd is that when they inevitably.

Inevitably find themselves in a circumstance where they cannot feel compersion. It like breaks their brain.

[01:17:10] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, totally. No framework for it.

[01:17:12] Evita: They're just like, ah, yeah, I don't know how to deal with this. I don't know how to navigate this. Yes, I don't have any tools for this.

[01:17:20] Dr. Nicole: Yes, yes.

[01:17:21] Evita: And it's usually something is wrong with what my partner is doing because I'm a naturally com conversive person, and so if I'm not feeling compersion about this, you're doing something wrong.

'cause I'm naturally com conversive or they start coming on themselves, something is wrong with me.

[01:17:36] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:17:37] Evita: Why can't I feel conversion about this? Something is wrong with me. And I'm like, it's neither. Mm-hmm. It's that, you know, in an ideal circumstance. You would always feel compersion, but the world is not ideal.

Right. And so people that have learned to adopt compersion as an ethic, what they usually have developed is tools for when the, the compersion, the feeling is not present. It's like, okay, I need to, I need, I gotta shift to my tools that I have from compersion to ethic.

[01:18:03] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:18:06] Evita: They can navigate those spaces a lot sooner because they're often, they're often navigating, showing up supportively to their partner's, non-monogamy, even when their feelings aren't on board.

[01:18:16] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Mm.

[01:18:18] Evita: Yeah.

[01:18:19] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Huge distinction. Huge distinction. I'm so grateful for all of the wisdom that you shared there. I appreciate the nuance of setting a realistic goal, and we need that for any sort of change that we're doing in the human experience as you can't go from one to a hundred in, in, you know, like you have to break it down.

And so I appreciate that of, of letting go, of needing to feel conversion and rather just trying to step into neutrality, right. Groundedness with it at minimum. Mm-hmm. And then that creating more space to keep stretching and feeling into that, and also letting go of it as a necessary piece. Right? I think the necessary pieces are respect, care, kindness, consideration, right?

Compersion doesn't have

[01:19:03] Evita: honesty, being transparent. So it's like,

[01:19:05] Dr. Nicole: totally.

[01:19:06] Evita: If you're not jazzed about something, you need to be honest about that and say, Hey, like I, I, I tell people sometimes. Like, say your partner shares something with you and you know it makes you uncomfortable. Mm-hmm. Or you don't like it, you know?

Yeah. You know, to me, my ethic of compersion in that is not going, oh my God, I'm so happy for you. And it's a lie that's not compersion in me. My ethic of compersion is going, Hey, I'm struggling with this. This makes me uncomfortable, but I really wanna thank you for keeping our commitment and transparency.

[01:19:36] Dr. Nicole: Yes, yes, yes. And that's such an important piece of the human existence too, is that we can hold duality. We can have two thoughts at the same time, which is that, wow, I'm freaking out a lot that you just shared that. And also, I want to support you. Those same things can be true at the same time. And so I think getting into that space too, we're remembering that.

We're not defined by our initial reaction that we have to something we're defined by the actions of what we do afterwards. And so I hear you having that moment of, wow, you just shared this and like, oh gosh, but what is my value system? What is my ethic of conversion? Okay. Taking that deep breath, maybe sharing that partner, Hey, I am noticing I'm having some difficulty in the body.

Can we work on that together? 'cause I do wanna be in a space that's grounded and to support you. That's where my value system is. And I feel like that's the biggest way that you end up stretching further and further into more resilience with this. And so I think that's such an important piece. And you know, my work with psychedelic therapy, I always think about the set and setting for the drug making everything.

And so, like you said, in your life when you are feeling more depleted and less resourced, compersion gets really hard. Jealousy might be way more prominent. And so it's about creating the different setting. And this. Set right to that experience. That is as ideal as possible. But in our current world, it's not a great set and setting realistically.

Right? And so there's a lot to do with that. And you know what makes jealousy really, really easy? And avoid an attachment, you know? So it's like just getting rid of jealousy is not the biggest trophy of non monogamy. There's a ton of people who have avoidant attachment who don't get jealous at all, because it's way too scary to be intimate in a relationship with someone where you might actually fear the loss of that person, right?

Mm. So like, yeah, I don't care. I don't care. Go for it. I don't care. And it's like, that's definitely not the trophy. I think there's gotta be some balanced dance between like, wow, I really love this person and they mean so much to me. And I know there is that possibility that they might leave and that fear is right there.

And every day that they choose me, I'm grateful for it. And if there is a day where they want to choose something else, I will celebrate them. In that, I'll surely cry, but I'll also celebrate them because that's what it means to really love someone, is not to clamp them, hold them down and restrict them, but to support what it is that they're called to, right?

At the end of the day, I don't know what. You know, what is love? Other than that, at the end of the day,

[01:22:05] Evita: yeah. I, I made a post once about how I wanted to shift from having love that was like a snow globe to love. That's like a magic carpet, you know? And so snow globe love, if you think about a snow globe, snow globe, it, it, it takes a beautiful scene and the scene may be beautiful, but it freezes it in time.

[01:22:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:22:28] Evita: You know, the trees and the snow globe don't grow, you know? Yeah, yeah. The buildings in the snow globe don't change, you know? Totally. That scene is in the, in the snow globe and that's it. And so o oftentimes we love the people in our lives in a snow globe. So we are like, who you are when I met you at this time, I'm gonna encapsulate you in this space, and then you're gonna stay that space and where we're, and I'm gonna love you.

My, my, I'm gonna wrap my love around you. Yeah, totally. To keep you, you know, in this beautiful scene. You know, in this period of time, like a snow globe. And I want my love for people to feel like a magic carpet in that they can explore the world, they can grow, they can change, they can whatever. And they feel supported and carried by it.

[01:23:09] Dr. Nicole: Mm mm-hmm.

[01:23:11] Evita: So they don't feel clamped down, you know, by my love, but they feel supported and carried absolutely. By my love. And sometimes, you know, that may mean that they step off of my magic carpet.

[01:23:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. I'm done with the ride. That was good. I'm, that's it. Yeah.

[01:23:26] Evita: Right. Yeah. They're done with the ride and I, I, you know, I want them to have the space to be, to do that, even if that is painful.

And I mean, and it's not, it's not easy, you know, the, the, the fear of loss is, is very real.

[01:23:37] Dr. Nicole: Yes, absolutely.

[01:23:38] Evita: Uh, in relationships. And also, you know, we can't use that to justify wanting to limit constrain control. Right. Or, um, you know, sort of like you said, sort of, you know, clamp around these people. One of the things that, uh, Genevieve from Chop Polyamory said, which I love, she said, you can't control your way into a secure relationship.

You can't,

[01:23:59] Dr. Nicole: they're coming on the podcast too.

[01:24:00] Evita: Um, so yeah, yeah. Oh, good. Wonderful. They're coming. I love Genevieve shout. Genevieve. Genevieve is amazing. Um, we did a workshop together and I was just like, oh my God, this is such a great human being.

[01:24:09] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:24:09] Evita: But yeah, that, so, um, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, you can't control your way into a secure relationship, and, and honestly, that doesn't feel good in my body.

Like, you know, it, it, it doesn't feel good in my body. Uh, initially when I'm, you know, kind of turned up, you know, I'm a little like, ah, you know, and I, and I feel that urge to want to, you know, but I know that temporarily that might feel good, but over time I'm like, yeah, this doesn't feel good. It's a false sense of security.

It absolutely is. Right? Because you, you're never like, this person is showing up to me or doing this thing. 'cause they genuinely want to, right. It's about, you know, something that I sort of, you know, I controlled them to do. Um, and so there, there, there's just not security. There's not real genuine security in that.

No,

[01:24:50] Dr. Nicole: totally. Totally. Totally. Yeah. It's the, uh, the death of the real flower that makes it more valuable than the plastic. Right. If you want.

[01:24:58] Evita: Right.

[01:24:58] Dr. Nicole: Everything to be controlled. Disco date, ai, you know, at this point, you know, actually please don't. Right. But like that is the world that we're seeing a lot of people do.

Right, right. So it's interesting in the ways that humanity is trying to find control in these relationships and something that is inherently outside of our control. 'cause it's the dynamic of two people and change is inevitable. But I find that to be the beauty. That's why we love the flower, right. Is the finiteness of that.

Um, so yeah, hopefully we'll be able to step into with more grounding, a bit more space for the unknown, right. In terms of that.

[01:25:31] Evita: And I think if we as humans. We're better about being able to hold change both in ourselves and in other people. We would actually find that our relationships would have more viability.

[01:25:50] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, totally.

[01:25:52] Evita: Is is when we can hold change. Uh, Shanae Jackson Kendall from the Intentional polyamory cohort, one of the things that she said is I had to learn to be committed to the person. Mm-hmm. And not the relationship. And so much of us have a commitment to the relationship and not the person I have a commitment to you being in my life as my romantic and sexual partner.

[01:26:14] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:26:16] Evita: And when things come up that seem to threaten that or to seem like it's changing that Right. We freak out.

[01:26:25] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:26:25] Evita: But I think if we learned how to hold change better as, as human beings change in others and also change in ourselves. You know, we would find that our relationships actually had a lot more staying power, and there were a lot more, there was a lot less fear of loss because it's like this person changing does not mean that I have to lose them.

I may lose access to certain things that I experienced with them, or I may lose desire for certain things that I now want to experience with them, but I don't necessarily have to lose them. Right. And they can change and they can grow, and I can change and I can grow, and we can still maintain the commitment to one another as people that we want to, you know, be connected to.

[01:27:06] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. The narrative of your relationship gets deeper through all of that complexity.

[01:27:12] Evita: Mm-hmm.

[01:27:13] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Well, it's so obvious I could talk to you for hours, clearly. Like, here we go. Yeah. And so I'm so grateful that you came onto the podcast today, and also for all of the vulnerability that you shared with your story, with your dynamics, with the beginning, with your children, with your journey.

It's so, so powerful. Every time that I get someone in this space who takes up that call to be authentic, to share, to be vulnerable, because we need more embodied stories where we can hear the laughter, we can hear that moment of the tenderness, of that first moment of Compersion, right? Where you were really feeling that.

And so to hear that, that is such a powerful way of transmitting these ideas. And so I'm so grateful that you came onto the podcast today.

[01:27:58] Evita: Thank you. This was a great conversation. Oh yeah. I loved talking about this. I loved the remembrances. You know, some of these are stories I haven't talked about in a long time.

Absolutely. And so getting the opportunity to share those things mm-hmm. And, and, uh, just connect with, you know, someone who you feel resonances with. Um, I always value and appreciate that it makes you feel a little less alone in the world.

[01:28:16] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. That's why the podcast is here, baby. Absolutely. Uh, well, as we're coming towards the end of our time, I'll take a deep breath with you.

Yes. We love that. And I'll check in with you and see if there's anything else that you wanna share with the listeners. Otherwise I can guide us towards a closing question.

[01:28:41] Evita: No. Um, I'm grateful for this opportunity. Um, I think if I had to say my parting words to the, you know, listeners is be a little bit kinder, you know, to yourself, you know, be a little bit kinder to yourself, be a little bit kinder to each other, but in, in being kinder to yourself, you're gonna be kinder to others and being kind to others.

You're gonna be kinder to yourself, you know, connection. While it is a very, very deep fundamental human need, there is so much stuff

[01:29:11] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:29:11] Evita: In it.

[01:29:12] Dr. Nicole: Oh yeah.

[01:29:13] Evita: And it is that once very simple and also incredibly complex. You know, it, it's that human paradox, a paradox of the human experience. And so in that remembrance, please be kind.

Please be kind to self. Please be gracious. Yes. You know, please be kind and gracious with yourself and be kind and gracious with one another.

[01:29:33] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. I love that invitation for folks to remember how many systems. Are here and against us, right? And so have that compassion. And that's actually the, the Radical Act.

'cause you're gonna go further there, right? Those thought spirals. Oh no, why don't I have conversion? Oh no, I can't do this. Oh no. Oh no. You know, the moment that you can stop and have compassion, you can go in the opposite direction. And so that's revolutionary just as much as rest is revolutionary, right?

Compassion is also revolutionary. So I love that invitation.

[01:30:05] Evita: Yeah, they're a, a lyric. From a rapper, he's a Buddhist rapper, his name is Bonai. Mm-hmm. And he talks about, you know, his meditation practice and when a feeling or a thought comes up that he doesn't want. And I'm literally thinking about getting this tattooed on me because I love this so much.

The lyrics show myself love as I watch it rise. Show myself love as I watch it. Stay, show myself love as I watch. Fade show myself love as I watch it change.

[01:30:31] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:30:32] Evita: Yeah. And so that remembrance, you know, that, that coming, this coming forward show myself love when these feelings, these uncomfortable feelings, these challenging feelings arrive.

Yes. Show myself love when they're lingering and we're like, I just want this thing to be over with. You know?

[01:30:44] Dr. Nicole: I totally,

[01:30:44] Evita: you know, show myself love as they begin to change and then show my, you know, show myself love as they, they shift, they fade, you know, and then they change and they move on to something else because they all do.

They all move on. They really do. Feelings change. Yeah. They evolve. They don't last forever. Um, and keeping that in mind has been a godsend. I'm not gonna feel this way forever. I'm really not.

[01:31:05] Dr. Nicole: Right. Right. And it's such a muscle. Once you get those neuronal pathways in that frame of compassion, compassion, compassion, it becomes your normal thought pattern.

If you're coming from a different place, it is like weeding through a bun, a thick jungle and trying to walk through that. 'cause your brain has gone so in that direction. So have compassion for even the journey of getting to compassion. Right. Because it's like a muscle. The more you flex it, the more one day you'll wake up and you won't even have to think about trying to step into that.

[01:31:36] Evita: Yeah, very

[01:31:37] Dr. Nicole: true.

[01:31:37] Evita: Yeah.

[01:31:38] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Alright, so the closing question that I ask everyone on this show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:31:50] Evita: What is one thing? Oh, wow. That's a good question. Yeah. Other people knew is more normal.

[01:31:56] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:31:57] Evita: You know what I wish people knew was more normal.

[01:32:00] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:32:01] Evita: That we all have inner children and sometimes they be going off the rails. Yeah. And I think we look at other people and go, that's so childish.

[01:32:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:32:10] Evita: You know, and that's they, they're acting like a child, you know? Child. And I'm like, we all have an inner child that sometimes gets stirred up and throws their little baby tantrum.

And acts a fool. And that is true for every single solitary one of us, whether you're, you know, 18 or 80, you know, we all have an inner child and sometimes that inner child takes over the show. And I think if people knew that that was a lot more normal, they wouldn't look at other people's stuff and say, this person is behaving like a child.

Right? But somehow what they're doing is, is totally rational. No. Like, this person is behaving like a child. It's like, but I'm, I'm, I'm being completely mature and rationally here.

[01:32:55] Dr. Nicole: Right?

[01:32:55] Evita: It's like, no, we, we all have an inner child. Um, our inner child gets stirred up and I think if we, you know, learned to.

Interface with that entity.

[01:33:07] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:33:08] Evita: And from a space of, of not judging it, but just going, you know, almost thinking of it like the, like a nurturing parent. And for some people they didn't have a nurturing parent. Right. So they don't even know what that looks like. Right. They don't even know what to say to have somebody be nurturing.

[01:33:22] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:33:23] Evita: But when I think of, when I think of my inner child, I call, call her baby Vita, and now I'm changing her name to Vita Pie. 'cause that's what my mom used to call me when I was a kid. Vi pie. That's so sweet. She still calls me that.

[01:33:31] Dr. Nicole: Aw.

[01:33:32] Evita: You know, learning how to, when Baby Vita is activated, you know, sit down with baby Vita.

You know, when I think of, when I think of the, the, the imagery of a nurturing parent, that parent sits down in front of that kid, they look 'em dead in the eye. They, they get on their level with them face to face. Not that they, you know, start throwing a tantrum like they do, but they sit down, they become very present.

With the child, they look them dead in the eye and they say, I'm here.

[01:34:03] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:34:04] Evita: I am here with you. I am witnessing that you're in pain. I'm witnessing that you're frustrated. I'm witnessing that you're scared. I'm witnessing that you're sad. I am right here. I am here to be present with you, and I'm here to witness, and I'm here to respond to what you need.

Yeah. I'm not gonna, you know, cuss you out for, you know, getting mad that you dropped a juice on the floor. Like, you know, I'm not gonna, whatever, I'm just gonna get very present with you. Mm. I'm gonna get very present with you in a gentle and a tender way.

[01:34:37] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:34:37] Evita: And so I really wish that what people knew was more normal is that we all have an inner child and sometimes that inner child be wilding, okay?

[01:34:44] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:34:45] Evita: Um, and if we, when we learn how to accept that and make peace with that, and then nurture, uh, that, that entity in us, um, a lot of healing, um, can happen.

[01:34:55] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Yes. I feel like that pair so well with your invitation of compassion.

[01:35:00] Evita: Yeah.

[01:35:01] Dr. Nicole: I could imagine people even just walking themselves through that moment where they're feeling that younger part, really act up, cry, scream, and to offer the words even that you just said of, Hey, I see you.

I'm here with you. Right. That's the kind of thing that makes me cry, you know, in that moment, like Right, right, right. Yeah. So what a beautiful invitation to leave all the listeners with that, um, opportunity to see the humanists in ourselves, the humanists in all people, the tender, childlike parts of ourselves, and to have so much compassion knowing that compassion is what's gonna get us further down this journey of expansive love.

[01:35:43] Evita: Yes, very much so.

[01:35:44] Dr. Nicole: Uh, well, it was such a joy to have you on the podcast today, so magical. Thank you. Thank you,

[01:35:51] Evita: thank you, thank you. Thank you for having me. This was great.

[01:35:52] Dr. Nicole: Of course.

[01:35:53] Evita: I love this.

[01:35:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. So good. I'm sure everyone is dying to know where they can connect with you. How can they learn more about your writing and your work?

Where can they find you?

[01:36:03] Evita: So I can be found on most of my work is on Instagram at La Vita Loca 34. Uh, that's where a lot of my content comes out. I've also started a Substack and a Patreon. You can find the links on my Instagram so you can subscribe to those things. I'm shifting how I do my content, doing a lot more personal shares, um, which has been interesting and fun.

Yeah. What did you, and also a little scary, you know? Yes, yes. Because I'm like actually like talking about, you know, and I've always done that. But I'm doing so in a much more, you know, much more longer form way of kind of talking through my, you know, journey and my experience currently. So it's more about getting current updates about my actual personal life.

And so, like I said, that's on my Patreon, on my Substack. Um, I'm also on, uh, Facebook at La Vita Loca Sawyers. And so you can find me there on Facebook as well, but on my Instagram, um, that's where you can keep up with my comings and goings in terms of what workshops I'm doing, what conferences I'm gonna be at, what speaking engagements I have, et cetera.

My Instagram is really where it's at. And that's at La Vita Loca 34.

[01:37:03] Dr. Nicole: Perfect. I'll have all of that linked in the show notes below dear listeners, so you can just go,

[01:37:06] Evita: oh my gosh. And in my book,

[01:37:07] Dr. Nicole: straight to the show notes.

[01:37:08] Evita: How I forget.

[01:37:09] Dr. Nicole: No, I was like, wait, I thought you wrote a book too.

[01:37:10] Evita: I'm terrible. I'm terrible at marketing myself.

It's, it, it's, it's it. All of my friends are like, girl, okay, you need get this together.

[01:37:16] Dr. Nicole: You wrote a book, author, author.

[01:37:18] Evita: I literally wrote a whole book author and completely forgot about it. So, yeah, I wrote a book, uh, it's with Thorn Apple Press. Uh, Eve Ricker. Shout out to Eve Rickard. Hell yeah. And so, um, it's um, uh, a polyamory devotional 365 Daily Reflections for the consensually non-monogamous.

I like it. Yeah, because it's a little bite-sized piece of wisdom every day. So I find that it's a lot more digestible. Um, and yeah, it's just little snippets and pockets of polyamory wisdom for people to reflect on and think about. And so, yeah. And so that's available at Thorn Apple Press, um, a polyamory devotional.

That's my baby.

[01:37:51] Dr. Nicole: Hell yes. Check it out, listeners. Check it out. Oh, well, thank you again so much for coming on the show, for all of your vulnerability and for all of your wisdom. Thank you.

[01:38:03] Evita: Thank you for having me. Thank you for creating this platform and, and amplifying these voices and these ideas. Um, it's, it's so sorely needed.

[01:38:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm, thank you. Thank you. Truly life giving to me, you know, so thank you. Yeah,

woman, if you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast, and head on over to modern anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I wanna thank you for tuning in, and I will see you all next week.