267. Love in a F**ked Up World - Dean Spade

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Dean Spade join us for a conversation about radical community building. Together we talk about dismantling the romance myth, NRE safety planning, and curiosity over campaigning. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I'm so delighted to have all of you tuning in to another episode each Wednesday.

My name is Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, author of The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and The First Research Study on Relationship Anarchy, and founder of the Pleasure Practice, where I teach students from around the world how to craft pleasurable sex lives and non-monogamous relationships.

Dear listener Dean Spade. I mean, come on. What an episode. Oh, I'm so excited to share this one with you, dear listener, because, you know, this podcast has been happening for the last five years, and out of all the episodes, over 250 episodes that have been created on this show, the most played episode of all time is Dean Spade.

So I'm so excited to have him on the show for round two. You are going to love this episode. We get into, yeah, the raw humanness of what it means to try to build that other world that we know is possible, a world where our communities are stronger and interconnected and able to dismantle many of these internalized systems that are so deep within our unconscious and the ways that we relate and the ways that we go through conflict.

And Dean is just such a source of wisdom and knowledge. If you haven't read his book that is the title of this episode, Love in a Fucked Up World, I highly, highly, highly recommend. I know many of you have probably already read this book. Many of my clients have already read this book, and so I am so delighted to be bringing you this episode with Dean, and so much gratitude for Dean for coming onto the show today.

So enjoy. All right, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and all of my free resources at modernanarchypodcast.com. That is also where you will find out about my upcoming Pleasure Liberation Non-Monogamy. This is a 16-week program where I bring truly everything I've ever learned as a psychotherapist, all of my research on non-monogamy, and bring it into a educational space where you learn with students from around the world the psychological paradigms, the attachment theory, the somatic work to be able to build pleasurable non-monogamous relationships, right?

And so if you wanna learn more about that and join me with some students from around the world, you can go straight into the show notes below, and you will find all those resources and links, including links to Dean's work as well. And with that, dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love, and let's tune in to today's episode

Dear listener, there's a space already waiting for you where you are invited to let go of every old script about sex and relationships and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure, empowerment, and deep alignment. I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together, we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real transformation possible. And I'll be right there with you, guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure and visit modernanarchypodcast.com/pleasurepractice to apply.

And the first question that I love to ask every guest on the show is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:05:03] Dean: Hmm. Great question. Different every day. I, uh, I'm Dean. I have... My life is about the question of, like, what- makes transformative change happen. And I've been in social movement spaces for almost 30 years doing work around, like, abolition and queer and trans liberation and poverty and borders and wars.

And, um, my work has been a combination of, like, recognizing the limits of trying to work within legal systems or trying to get legal recognition. A lot of, a lot of stuff around that, and a lot of stuff kind of redirecting and saying that, like, the real work we need to do is, like, community-based work to fight back locally and support and care for people in crisis.

And more and more, my work has turned towards, like, supporting people to actually build groups that can... where people can do that together and build, like, interpersonal skills around working together with each other in groups, which inevitably involves conflict.

[00:06:03] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:06:04] Dean: And then also, like, figuring out the really complex thing of, like, why don't my actions align with my values, and what does it feel like to want to change that and actually change that instead of just, like, labeling each other when we all inevitably are contradictory in that way?

[00:06:20] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:06:20] Dean: And yeah, I write books and have a podcast called Love in a Fucked Up World that's just been around for, like, less than a year, and spend a lot of time, like, doing workshops with groups that are struggling with this stuff.

[00:06:34] Dr. Nicole: Amazing. Well, it's such a joy to have you again on the podcast today, Dean.

Thank you for coming back.

[00:06:39] Dean: Yeah. Thanks for inviting me back.

[00:06:41] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. It's really exciting, too. You know, I've been doing the podcast, when this will come out, for five years now.

[00:06:48] Dean: Wow.

[00:06:49] Dr. Nicole: Right? So the most played episode I have is this guided masturbation I made. Very exciting, right? We love... That's where all the people are at.

And then beyond that- Well, I like it. Yeah, totally. Totally. It's good, right? Walk you through some somatic work, a guided mental work with that. We need that sometimes. Um, and not in a, um... Some of them I, I found when I was doing my research were a little, like, extra on the erotic rather than the... or, like, a pushy erotic.

Do you know what I mean? Like a extra sexual space. I wanted something that was just really about embodiment and feeling that. Hmm. Um, and so beyond that episode, I've had so many guests on the show, and out of all of those episodes, you are the most played.

[00:07:33] Dean: Hmm.

[00:07:34] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:07:35] Dean: That's cool.

[00:07:35] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah. So it's exciting.

[00:07:38] Dean: Must have overlapping interests.

[00:07:39] Dr. Nicole: Uh-huh. Yeah. Uh-huh. Exactly. So the people are excited to have you back here. Good. And your book, I, I'd love to talk about the romance myth and the sticky caramel that that is. I love the metaphor that you reference there in terms of how delicious and sweet it can be, but also when it's hot, how much it can actually burn you.

And so I'm curious if we could start there as a jumping-off point.

[00:08:08] Dean: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, in the book I wanted s- you know, Love In a Fucked Up World is a book that's about trying to have people in our radical communities do some shared pattern identification about, like, things that s- just seem to happen over and over again.

You know, I wrote it because I feel like most people kinda act their worst when it comes to those relationships. Yeah. Like, a lot of people will be like, "This person's so amazing, they're so wonderful in our community," except for they treat their date really weird, or people that they wanna date or used to date.

[00:08:36] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:08:37] Dean: And so many groups fall apart over it, and so much, so many of us experience, you know, bad things in our lives from this area of life, and also just act so different from our other values. Yeah. And so one part of that is this, like, identifying the romance myth, um, which is, like, this big illusion that is cultivated by like every pop song and TV show and book Yeah

and you know, everything your parents say and by the legal system itself that says that your life should revolve around a romantic relationship, that this is what will make you happy, that if you don't have it you can't be happy and you're alone, that other relationships don't matter as much and you should like ditch your friends or ditch your politics or ditch your dreams for this kind of relationship.

And also it creates like all this intense resentment because then people of course do not find that one person meets their every need- Right ... and reads their mind. Yeah. And so people are in these very stagnated, often like very sexless, very cruel dynamics with one another or very deadening, numbing dynamics in these...

You know, and it's kind of a perfect thing for racial capitalism to have us all like suffering this sort of stagnation in our intimate lives, and stifled and not doing things we really wanna do, and then also keeping others from doing what, what they really wanna do. Like y- you know, finding everything our lover wants to do threatening to us.

[00:09:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:53] Dean: If they wanna have new kinds of friends or pursue new kinds of artistic projects or go to school for something or live somewhere else or drop out of certain rat races or whatever, or have a vibrant sexuality or whatever. So, um, this myth is like just like responsible for so much unhappiness, and for so many like kind of uncritical expectations.

And it's like wild. It happens to people all the time. You'll, you'll know someone who's like got like very developed feminist and queer politics. And then they fall in love. And suddenly they're like, "I don't know, I just want a white dress," or- Yeah ... "I just think if I had a baby with this person I would be happy," or...

And it's like to me romance is like mystification. Mm. It's like I've lost track of the obvious signs of reality that I could have observed i- in others, uh, and I now... You know, in Buddhism people talk about like I now believe this thing will make me permanently happy, and in reality nothing will make you permanently happy and nothing is permanent, et cetera.

So it's like what's going on with the things we've been told will make us permanently happy? And I think this applies to home ownership, it applies to parenting, it applies to- Yeah ... wealth, and it applies to marriage or romance. And so I've just seen this do a lot of damage to people's lives and communities, and I think there's nothing wrong with, um, how exciting and, and sweet and sticky romance is and how fun it is to get high off of new relationship energy and how like, I mean, I'm like really into sex.

Like all these things- Mm-hmm ... are really fun and wonderful. But how could I have like a s- like a safety plan, like an awareness of how much people throw their lives off the rails for this? What kinds of commitments could I make to ex- connect, stay in connect with my friends and community, my values? What do I wanna do to avoid becoming isolated in a relationship that then might become violent or at least just, like, you know, make me unhappy 'cause I'm isolated?

[00:11:42] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:42] Dean: How can I figure out when I'm having a strong, strong feelings 'cause, you know, you didn't call me back, or-

[00:11:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:11:49] Dean: you started dating someone else, or whatever it is. How can I figure out what's values aligned to action, and so that I don't, you know, break into your phone or tell everybody in the community that th- that you should be kicked out of the group, or, you know, yell at you a lot, or whatever things people do to each other under the influence of those really strong feelings of betrayal and disappointment that kinda go with that cycle of romance.

In the book, I also talk about how the cycle of romance, the kind of, the thing where, like, when I first meet you, like, y- I can see no wrong in you and I also show you my best side, and we're like so- Yeah ... goo goo eyed over each other. And then, like, uh, inevitably I will experience disappointment, and it might be proportional to, like- Yes

how much I was, like, kind of projecting your, that you would meet all my needs and, you know, heal all my oldest wounds unconsciously. And then I might be, like, so mad at you. You know? Yeah. Like, that, that cycle happens very obviously with lovers, but it also happens with friends and it happens with groups.

[00:12:45] Dr. Nicole: Right. Mm-hmm.

[00:12:45] Dean: And so another thing I'm really trying to think about in the book is, like, let's say you're new to organizing, and you've just joined your first, you know, organizing group and you're like, for the first time in your life doing something you care about to stop wars or to stop ICE or whatever it is we're doing.

And, like, I'm seeing you go through the whole thing. I'm watching you go through the cycle. You're like, "Oh my God, this group is amazing. People finally understand me. I finally have other friends like me," whatever. And could I, could I hold your hand while you go through the other parts of the cycle? And could I, like, help you weather it?

And, like, you know, could we, like, know this cycle is a pattern and then, like-

[00:13:20] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:13:20] Dean: somehow care for each other so that you don't, like, have to destroy the entire group when you become upset because you didn't feel listened to, or people were, you know, having patriarchal or racist or other dynamics which, of course, are upsetting.

But, like, it kind of, how do we find, how do we support each other through these very reactive kind of culturally scripted cycles? And that's part of what the romance stuff is about in the book.

[00:13:44] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Such needed work for the revolution, right? How else are we gonna do it other than working together?

And so to go through all of this, to build the skills, this is the heart of it all right here. And- In terms of the romance myth, it's f- it's fascinating 'cause it's such a, um, state of new relationship energy that, as you're pointing to, you can experience with any sort of relationship, whether it's to a new substance often.

"Whoa, this new drug. Whoa, this new person. Whoa, this new group. Wow," right? Like, it's that novelty, and especially with, uh, people, we get all that, the, the intimacy, the purpose, the dopamine, the oxytocin, the serotonin, and it really is a state similar to cocaine, and they've done a lot of research on the dopamine pathways, right?

And so it's fascinating how if, if your friend was going through a cocaine bender, we would be saying like, "Hey, what's your safety plan for all these other areas of your life?" However, as you pointed, in terms of especially romance, when you go through that, that's actually, like, the, the peak of the movie.

Like, that drugged out, intense state is the ideal part, quote-unquote, right? And so we don't really have any sort of scaffolding for looking at that as potentially a dangerous thing. That's just sort of the, the norm of what we, quote-unquote, want.

[00:15:02] Dean: Yeah, everybody wants it, and we're... It would be like, uh, if you're asking me a question about it as my friend, are you, like, are you just jealous?

Are you... You know, people would be like, "Hun, hun, oh," you know? "This is the best thing that's ever happened to me. This, this person I'm dating is gonna meet all," you know? Yeah. And it can even feel like- escalating it, being like, "Oh my God, I know it's bonkers, but we're gonna move in together after two months," or we're gonna, you know, like whatever s- other thing like that, can feel like we can be in a cycle of trying to appease our own anxiety about this- Mm

newfound vulnerability and this connection, and then just like escalate really fast, and that's really celebrated, right? Like- Mm ... oh my God, they sent me so many flowers. They introduced me to their family. They introduced me to their kid, whatever. And yeah, I think like it, it can be really nice to h- be in a fr- friend circle where I can just be like, "Nicole, I want to send this boy this song.

It is such an escalation. Can I send it to you instead?"

[00:15:56] Dr. Nicole: Yeah,

[00:15:57] Dean: exactly. Can I... I want to, I want to text this. Please help me wait at least a few more weeks to decide- Uh-huh ... whether or not to text this, or I-

[00:16:06] Dr. Nicole: Uh-huh ...

[00:16:07] Dean: you know, or like, please don't let me cancel the vacation we have planned as friends so that I can- Yes

you know what I mean? Or like- Right ... don't let me not show up to all the things w- that our community usually does that I usually ... You know what I mean? Just like-

[00:16:18] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:16:18] Dean: he- like, and let me trust that I can have a, actually a better quality connection with another person if I hold onto myself and my life.

Right. Which doesn't mean not letting ourselves be transformed by people. You know, maybe I fall in love with someone and they do introduce me to a new political world or a new spiritual practice or a new creative practice, and it does change the shape of my life. That can happen with, y- yes, with friends.

But like, there's a d- there's a different danger about like really losing ourselves and losing our, um, becoming isolated. I mean, that's the thing that happens. Like, I think so many people I know who are my age are taking care of elders.

[00:16:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:16:54] Dean: And those elders were in isolating marriages or are in them. Mm.

And so it's like these old people who don't have any friends or community. Yeah, yeah. And then these younger people are trying to care for them, and it's like everyone's just in such a worse con- position than if people- Right ... had friends. Right. But the marriages were part of why these people became so isolated, and no one talks about that.

[00:17:14] Dr. Nicole: Right, and that's a unique part of the experience. You know, the, specifically in marriages, romance myth, right? It's not just about the sending the flowers, sending the texts, and my notes app is full of unsent texts. You know, it's a good place maybe-

[00:17:30] Dean: You could republish that as a zine. I would read that zine.

[00:17:32] Dr. Nicole: Could you imagine?

[00:17:32] Dean: I'm sure it's so gorgeously romantic.

[00:17:34] Dr. Nicole: I actually just got six years of my therapy notes back as a client, and I was thinking about publishing that. I was like, "Well, that's actually a lot." You know what I mean? But it would be interesting, interesting. Yeah. I'm not doing therapy anymore as a client.

I've got lots of political feelings about that, but, uh, we should get into that. But it would be fascinating to post some of these more vulnerable pieces, because so much of that is a place where- When we're typing it out, we're slowing down. We can read it a couple times, reflect on it, and sit and wait, and it's working with the power of urges, right?

We know that most urges will pass in about 15 minutes if you really sit with it and allow it, right, to be there and feel it fully. But those 15 minutes can feel super uncomfortable, right? Especially if we're getting into more, like, addiction territory. It can feel like you're gonna die during those 15 minutes that you're really sitting with that.

And so having community, other sorts of practices that you can do is essential. And especially within the romance myth, it's very, um, I talk about it as a black hole, right? And so it's not just getting close, it's often also getting close in a way that's at the cost of all of your other relationships because this is the, typically in the myth, the one person that's gonna do all of that.

Forget all these other things that I've had on the side. This is the piece. Forgetting how essential it is to have community. And I, I do feel like Idealistically, I know this is not always the case, but the more connections you have where you get that kind of love and intimacy, and specifically physical and erotic support, you have a bit more of a baseline.

I'm not gonna say that you don't still fall into NRE, but it's almost like you're, you're saturated to such a level that I, I do think it kind of makes it a little bit easier. I'm not saying perfect by any means of the term, but a little bit easier when compared to a society where you're so completely void of any sort of touch.

There's so many people that are void of touch, and so when you get that first person who do, "I need this in my life. I need this, I need this," versus when you have that need met, it's a little bit easier, I think, to go through the NRE cycle.

[00:19:40] Dean: Yeah. I also think, I don't know, I, uh, there's a pattern that I wonder if you see in your community that I've seen a lot- Hmm

where people are in a long-term relationship, they break up, and they're like, "I just wanna have casual sex now."

[00:19:49] Dr. Nicole: Hmm.

[00:19:49] Dean: But then the first person that they connect with casually, they enter a really long-term relationship with. And it's almost like there's a space in their life that's a certain size, and sometimes it's actually also really hard 'cause they're saying to that person, "Hey, we're just casual."

[00:20:04] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:20:05] Dean: But they're not acting casual.

[00:20:06] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:20:07] Dean: And then the other person, it's like, "I'm s- I'm seeing you every day and hanging out with you a lot, but I'm telling you, like, it's not, like, we're not boyfriends or something." Right. You know what I mean? Right. Right. And then there's j- such a gap between, like, w- like, what I am saying I want in my relationships and what I'm able to actually pursue.

Like, I think a lot of this stuff is kind of compulsive. Mm-hmm. Like, compulsive escalation.

[00:20:31] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:31] Dean: Compulsive, like, hanging out more than you meant to.

[00:20:35] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:20:35] Dean: Not really being able to stand being alone or doing something different, like relying on friends or other people in the community for other, for different things that you used to expect to rely on a lover for, or that you did rely on a lover for, or that you were told to.

I mean, I also have this thing with a lot of friends who are looking for partnership and haven't found it.

[00:20:54] Dr. Nicole: Hmm.

[00:20:54] Dean: And they're like, "I don't wanna be alone." Hmm.

[00:20:56] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:56] Dean: And I'm like, this is such a mythology that you are alone if you don't have a partner. Right. Right. Like, you have your friends, hopefully. Mm-hmm.

And the, and we can dig into more of those, or you have, you know, like, maybe you have a faith community or maybe you have a organizing community. But, like, can we move away from the idea that we are alone if we don't have- Mm-hmm ... that kind of partnership? Right. Like, I feel like that's just a- That's part of the romance myth lie that our lives are worthless unless we have that thing Mm-hmm And that also then you'll do anything for that thing.

Right. And you'll put up with anything. Like, so there's not really like a way to be like, "Hmm, that didn't feel good," or like have... figure out what your boundaries are or what you're open to. I mean, I think the other one that... one other piece I'll say about this is people will be automatically on a like, "I'm looking for a serious partner and nothing else."

It's really hard to date when you're looking only for a serious partner and, you know, like, I don't know, h- how can you tell if someone is that if you don't like hang out a bunch and see what's going on? And so it's like if I'm trying to get to the end of the story with you and there's only one answer, then I might have had, I might have had an interesting sexual connection, but we didn't end up wanting that together, or we might have had some kind of other creative experience or some kind of interesting emotional thing happen.

But if I'm only at that look endpoint and I'm only choosing people who say that to me, which doesn't mean that that's actually what it will be Right, right ... or that anyone can guarantee that there is compatibility for that. So I just feel like there's a lot of like- Like, the romance myth causes us to be very, like, um, on autopilot or rigid- Mm.

Mm-hmm ... or, like, stuck repeating behaviors that may not be getting us what we want.

[00:22:28] Dr. Nicole: Right. Yeah.

[00:22:28] Dean: Or not even be able to ask ourselves what we want and have- Yeah ... like, kind of an open, like, "Oh, I might not know because I've been programmed really hard about what's, like, gonna be the good life for me." Mm-hmm. And if that thing's not available or if I...

It's- it's not treating me right, like, how can I have a m- more open inquiry about what I want and how people go about getting that?

[00:22:49] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I mean, those are really tough skills. Right? And so many of us don't even have the insight or awareness to notice that we've over-committed to something, right? It's often not till after, and then can you go through the communication after that, uh, to name those experiences that you're having?

I mean, that's really challenging for a lot of folks, and particularly under these systems where you're working so much and jobs that are not about community building, not about emotional skills and those sort of capacities and communication. And so the system runs off of all of us not really having these skills.

Could you imagine if we all did? We would unionize together really fast, right? And so it, it really runs off of so many of us never getting to a space where we can really develop that insight, right? And so I- I think you're, you're hitting on such an important thing, is that when we watch the Hallmark movie, when we see these sorts of examples, you just go from A to the end of the point, which is serious partner, all that sort of stuff.

And when you're doing that, you have a vision, and you're trying to plop this person into your vision rather than actually looking at them as a human being and how you can connect and what sort of ways you could build intimacy together. You're trying to put them all the way at the end of the sta- the storyline, which is dying, dying together, right?

Rather than actually attuning with what's in front of you. And if you did more of that attuning work, the hard s- part of that is actually feeling like, "Ah, okay, this amount of intimacy feels like too much. Let's, let's step a little bit wider," or, "Actually, I want more," right? And all of that, that you have to have rejection skills too because that other person could be into that, not into that.

And to g- go through that repeatedly, which I think is an essential point of consent in any relationship, right, is that the ways I related to you th- for the first year of our dynamic might not be how I wanna relate the next year or the next day, you know, right? All that sort... That is a lot of insight and skills to be able to know what's going on for me, communicate it to the other person, go through rejection, go through conflict, and still get to the other side.

Oof.

[00:24:53] Dean: Yeah. What you're saying too about the story, like in the Hallmark movie or the romance novel or kind of every... It's, it's like the whole thing is like, "Can I get this boy to like me?" And then once I do, like, and then maybe we have, we have a, maybe we have a friends, an enemies to friends thing. Or maybe we have a- Yeah

we were with other people, or maybe we, I, we had a misunderstanding and we each thought the other one didn't like each other, whatever. And then, oh, boom. Yeah. We find out we both like each other the most. Mm-hmm. And that's the end of the story.

[00:25:18] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:18] Dean: And in reality, you've just gotten through, you've just gotten into NRE, and now you are gonna have the conflict phase where you're like, "Oh yeah, I actually don't like seeing movies with you," or, "I'd rather not go to your families for some holiday you guys celebrate."

Or, "I, you know, prefer to talk with my friends about my job because you are, don't listen that well," or, like, whatever, all the thousands and thousands of things, where like we have different times of day we like to have sex or, like, whatever. And- We hurt each other's feelings and, you know- Yeah ... like that.

It's like, and, and, and as you're saying, we all change all the time, right? Mm-hmm. Like, so, you know, is this relationship, how do we, how are we constantly renegotiating the relationship as ideally we're both growing in, like, our interests and our, like, development of our lives on all fronts, and having conflict that lets us maybe deepen our intimacy skills if, if that, if we're capable of that.

Yeah, and it, it's like the romance myth is about, is about dying. It is. Mm. It's about-

[00:26:17] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:26:18] Dean: it's about the fact that the nation state manages people's wild, feral sexuality through marriage, and marriage is a promise for forever that's supposed to map on to the nation state itself, which has this lie that it is forever, right?

In reality, like, countries come and go, like, all the fucking time. But, like, the story is that, like, wherever you live, it's forever, and this nationalism tells you it's forever, and this is how you are conscripted into it. And it's heavy to be like, oh, reality is constantly changing.

[00:26:47] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:26:48] Dean: Emotions are arising and passing away constantly.

Attachments are changing, like desire is changing, and-

[00:26:55] Dr. Nicole: Right ...

[00:26:56] Dean: we have to choose all the time again and again whether or not we wanna be connected to people, and how, and what we wanna do with them, and, and our bodies, and our living quarters, and our, our parenting arrangements- Mm-hmm ... and all of this stuff.

And that's really scary, the, like, total uncertainty. And people, I think, are told that if they can find this kind of relationship, they will f- feel a deep form of safety, and, um, things will be unchanging. Mm. And that is not actually available. Like, that's not a thing. Like, yes, you can fe- experience emotional security at times for periods of, for moments with people, and other kinds of emotional satisfaction, which is not more valuable than experiencing, like, delightful risk.

And, you know, there's, it's all valuable.

[00:27:37] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:38] Dean: And nothing is, nothing is forever.

[00:27:41] Dr. Nicole: No.

[00:27:42] Dean: It's like, it's a very, like, regressed state in which we're like, you know, wa- wanting that and, and believing that in particular ways. It's very, very, very hard.

[00:27:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean, even just looking at the divorce rates, you know, 50% higher, you know, it's- Predicated upon socioeconomic factors and education levels, so that, that stat can really shift depending on where you're at.

Um, the lower SES, lower education having higher, more common rates of divorce. You know, you're experiencing so many more struggles, and again, lack of communication skills. Um, and that's just divorce, not even the erotic pieces that I'm really passionate about talking about.

[00:28:24] Dean: But if we- I think there's a different reason that, though.

[00:28:26] Dr. Nicole: Go for it. Yeah, totally.

[00:28:27] Dean: Poor people get married less because marriage is about property relations.

[00:28:30] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:28:31] Dean: So poor people get married less and get out of marriages more easily-

[00:28:33] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:28:33] Dean: because marriage is fundamentally a property thing. You know what I mean?

[00:28:35] Dr. Nicole: Sure, sure.

[00:28:36] Dean: Totally. Um, and I th- and poor people are pathologized for not marrying as much.

Like, that's what a lot of the welfare rhetoric is, like, oh, these- Mm ... terrible single mothers. Yeah. But it's like if you don't have anything to share with other people through marriage, like you don't have any inheritance or health insurance through a job or immigration status- Yeah ... or whatever. And, and so I just, I always feel like that's important to put in there because it's so pathologized.

[00:28:55] Dr. Nicole: Right. And costs less for a lawyer, I imagine, 'cause that whole process is expensive, too.

[00:29:00] Dean: It's expensive to get a divorce. It's t- I mean, I- i- getting married is, is generally a bad idea for so many reasons. Yeah, I imagine. I say that as your lawyer.

[00:29:08] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:29:10] Dean: I would say if there's something you want that requires getting married, like a, like immigration status or something- Right

just marry someone who you're not fucking. Right. Yeah. Yes. Just marry a friend. You know, I was just in Berlin, and the- there's a whole, there was all these workshops on solidarity marriages. Like, just marry people as like a, an act of solidarity and make the agreements there. Similar, I recommend people have kids with people they're not fucking.

Like, that's a big piece of labor you're taking on. That's a lot of work and conflict. Like, it- do it in the most stable relationship you can find to do it in, and that is- Mm-hmm ... probably the one where you have a crush.

[00:29:37] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. I know, I remember one of my professors saying, "Don't start a private practice with, uh, people that you're romantically connected to.

It's a bad idea, bad idea." I'm like, it's funny that we then say like, "Have a child with those f- people." Buy property. Something that was arguably more challenging in some ways.

[00:29:53] Dean: Yeah.

[00:29:55] Dr. Nicole: Um-

[00:29:55] Dean: I'm sorry. I totally cut in. You were- No, you're, you're good ... you were talking about divorce rates, and I interrupted.

[00:29:59] Dr. Nicole: Uh, I was just, you know, e- even if we ballpark it at 50, you know, it's, it's wild to me that if my friend was about to get on a plane with a 50% crash rate, I'd be like Are we preparing for this?

Like, I'm gonna miss you. Like, wow, this is ... We gotta, you know. But God forbid one of my friends who's, like, deep in the romance myth, like super excited about the wedding dress and the whole thing, if I come up to her and say, "Hey, are you prepared for the chance that this is gonna end horribly, and, like, how are you dealing?"

Like, then I'm the bad friend because I don't believe in her and her love, right? And so it's, it's such a catch-22 depending on who you're talking to. Uh, 'cause I, I, I'm very grateful that a lot of people in my community are having these conversations. Like you're saying, like, how do I get married to a friend?

You need immigration status, I need insurance. How do we navigate all of this? 'Cause there's a lot of deconstructing around what the word marriage means. It's all very existential meaning-making, right? Like, but then when some of my other people in my community don't have that same frame, like, I, I think they would find what I'm saying to be rude or, like, really mean to their image and their cultural meaning of what that word marriage means in their symbolism of their relationship.

[00:31:08] Dean: Yeah. And I think it's like people have cultural relationships to marriage that are outside of the legal structure. So also sometimes I'm just like, could you do it without doing the legal part just to save yourself a little bit of li- you know, or whatever. There are just so many, there's so many other ways to think about this stuff.

But also I think, I think I also want people to just question marriage is a method of social control.

[00:31:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:34] Dean: And it, it doesn't, it, it doesn't mean we don't want things that are socially controlling. Like, we all want tons of things that are what we're also scripted to want. But it's just like I think the point of being radical is that you let yourself try to cultivate critical distance.

It doesn't ... You know, it's like you and I are both wearing clothes, and that's culturally normative. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's tons of things that we're, you know, we're all doing that are culturally normative. But l- there's nothing, like, wrong with surviving and getting by and trying to figure out our desires.

But I think for me a lot of what being in radical community is about is being, like, allowed to critically engage about our desires, and a lot of what being queer is about for me is that. And being anti-capitalist, you know? It's like why do I want this, and, like, who told me to want this? And- Yeah ... what is it I think this is gonna make

Why do I think this is gonna make me happy? And h- like, what am I n- what am I not looking at in order to believe that so wholeheart- wholeheartedly, you know? And- Mm-hmm ... um, I feel like this is just a really ... It's li- it's not about there being a r- there's not a right way to do relationships. No. I don't think there is.

I, th- you can treat people badly in any form- Yeah ... of a relationship, and people mostly do. But-

[00:32:37] Dr. Nicole: Yeah,

[00:32:37] Dean: totally ... I, just for our own freedom, like, what does it mean to Like just be like, "Who put this idea in my head?" Right. You know? D- is it mine? Yeah. Do I, like, do I believe it on a deeper level than the, like, reactive level, you know?

[00:32:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:32:55] Dean: Which can feel like a very deep level. I mean, the thing is too, uh, there's so much stuff in the attachment literature about this, right? But like-

[00:33:00] Dr. Nicole: Right ...

[00:33:01] Dean: if we start dating, I may feel like a kind of... And you don't call me back, I may feel like I'm gonna die. Absolutely. Yeah. I was thinking about this when you were talking about 15 minutes to go through an urge, right?

Like, I've so many people contact me or my close friends who are like, "I'm going bananas 'cause I j- I'm dating someone, and for some reason I'm freaking out when they don't contact me back. Help me. Like, how do I..." You know, like, it's, like, intense. Like, I can, I could have just met you three weeks ago and be really crushed out on you and feel like I'm gonna die 'cause you don't call me.

[00:33:30] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:33:30] Dean: This is heavy stuff. It's also, like, a lot of beautiful stuff to work with about- Right ... our aliveness and about, like, like, really asking ourselves, like, what, what is the ground upon which I am resting? What is the gravity of my being? What is, how am I socially in a web? Like, what makes me safe? Like, these kind of deeper questions.

But, like- When we got the romance myth running in the background, and then I have those normal reactions, or you have them to me, and we're doing that dance, it's easy to either quickly escalate or really hurt each other. And then h- you know, you d- you're, you're not into calling me back, and then I tell people in the community that you're, you know, have bad e- unethical dating practices-

and now we're all against you. Or, you know, any number of things. Yeah. Right? Or we have sex and I think it means this, and you think it means that. Oh, right. And now everyone's mad at each other. You know, all the things. It's just heavy, and I feel like that is part of why we have no choice but to interrogate some of these assumptions, because they really are tearing apart- Mm-hmm

a lot of our community connections.

[00:34:31] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I mean, so much of the world you're going through where you, you know, you have the button-up collar and people ask how you're doing, and you say, "Fine." Right? "Fine, fine." And so then in the romantic space, that's the person, quote, quote, the one person that I get to be like, "Wow, no, I felt really suicidal this week and this is happening," and all of that.

And, like, it's often the one space that we go for intimacy, especially depending on gender stereotypes and what is told to be okay, and all the intersecting identities around that. Often these romantic spaces are the, quote, quote, "one space where you feel seen" with so much cultural, um, intimacy disconnection with everything that you're doing in the work spaces and other communities.

And so you can imagine when we're so hungry, we're so hungry, you're so hungry, and then you get that opportunity that here's this person who's gonna love me, all this, of course you're panicking that they're not texting you back. There is that one space, right? And I especially think about, um, the metaphor, I wrote a, a newsletter about, um, the cookie jar, right?

Es- particularly around eroticism, where, you know, with the kids, with you tell them, like, "Oh, you get one cookie. That's it. One cookie. One cookie. And the cookies are gonna go in this jar here at the top of the shelf, and you cannot touch that," the second the ca- the parents aren't home, the kids come rushing to the jar, stuff their face full of the jar, and then get a horrible stomach ache.

And I feel like so many of us are doing that in terms of intimacy and eroticism because we've been told one, if only one, you know. Some people don't even get access to one, but then many people have access to one. And then when you have the possibility of more, right, we really just stuff our face with it because we haven't learned the appropriate skills of, like, gauging our appetite and how to do this in appropriate ways.

And so I have so much empathy for the parts of ourselves that really wanna just, like, gorge on connection and gorge on connection. And, and I really hope people see that not as a failing of themselves, but as, like, a society that has really kept us isolated from one another, from our deep, uh, needs, which is intimacy and touch, right?

So of course this is such, such a survival moment. Of course this feels like you want so many of that, 'cause that's a good desire to have. And also, how do we do it in a way that's safe, right? Safe for the community, right? I, I do fundamentally believe that the more you have- That satiation, right? The more you have water, food, the less you're craving.

Of course, there are people who still crave in, in complicated ways, but, but the, um, the, like, claws, teeth out level of experience, the feralness really is, I guess, what I'm alluding to. I, I do think it gets better when you have a snuggle pile Mm-hmm ... of people that you can come home to and do a cuddle with, right?

And I think most people don't have that. Even a lot of people in marriages fe- uh, God, as a couples therapist, I see shit all the time where people don't talk to one another. They're married for years- Mm-hmm ... say I love you, but are holding such deep secrets inside, and won't even say it to the person that they live with, they're close with, all of that, let alone the rest of the world.

So, like, of course we're yearning for this, and of course it's such a mess when we do it because we just don't have the skills

[00:37:38] Dean: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, there's, it's like most people have been denied opportunities to feel belonging, to feel- Yeah ... part of a group and valued. I'm ju- when you were talking, I was actually just thinking about the history of my own awareness of having, like, this major connection wound, like, growing up in a kind of situation of, like, neglect.

[00:37:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:37:58] Dean: Where a lot of how I got my needs met would be making, getting my friends' parents to like me. Mm. And then they would, like, do things, like give, like make me a lunch or whatever. Sure. And so I got, had this skillset where I could make someone like me, and I would turn off my awareness of whether or not I liked them.

And so it's been a plus in that I actually can kind of see the potential in anyone, and this has been really great sometimes when I'm organizing, 'cause I'm just like, "Maybe they're gonna come along," and I will, like, give anyone a shot to, like, to join a radical thing. Yeah. And other people would be like, "Are you kidding me?"

That they're turned off earlier. But the downside is I am o- I often am so oriented towards, like, uh, 'cause at that time, I s- I found safety through every single connection I could make. Every, get, try to get every teacher to like me, try to get every- Mm ... body's parent or every, or whatever, anybody, that I wanna form a meaningful connection with literally everyone I meet.

Yeah, yeah. And I meet a lot of people, and so I can't. So then I'm like, I wa- I, like, literally wanna be best friends with, like, everyone. Yeah. And it is, you know, it, it, and it's, it's not, um, it's not necessarily, like, a sexual thing, you know? That has, it has shown up a bit in my sexual life, but it's also just, like, I just, like, love people in this way that, like, has a lot of wonderful values aligned stuff in it.

But there's this other thing where I, like, can I know when something doesn't feel good? That took me, you know, it, it was really out of my 20s before I could figure that out. Like, oh, I don't like this. Mm. I don't wanna be closer to this person.

[00:39:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:39:21] Dean: This isn't for me. And can I be like, oh, my plate's full right now.

I can't add another, like, you know, I'll overstuff my time. Like, this is, you know, at different times in my life- Mm ... it's been worse or better. But just, like, it's just a connection wound, and I have friends who have the opposite connection wound.

[00:39:35] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:39:36] Dean: They feel suspicious of everyone. They don't like people they know knowing each other.

Right, yeah. They don't, they feel safer when they're, when they're, um, controlling connection, and when they're the one saying no, and they're the one moderating how much contact. And, like, I really understand that too, like, that, that, and they, they often had, like, over, too much intervening in their early lives- Mm-hmm

by adults, as opposed to neglect, and they are trying to- Right ... like, get some space.

[00:40:01] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:40:02] Dean: And both of these patterns, I mean, obviously I'm oversimplifying, 'cause, you know, we all do all these features in some- Right ... sometimes and places. Yeah But yeah, this, um... And I also, what you said also made me think about, like, the dating apps and social media, and how they, they give an impression that there's an unending number- Mm

of people out there who are, like, cooler and better and hotter or whatever than my o- my current friends or dates. And this can really cause people to be very, like, disposing of one another. Yeah. And, like, the secret trick I'll tell you as someone who's almost 50 is that, like, actually, you, th- you're gonna see them all again.

[00:40:36] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:40:36] Dean: Like,

[00:40:37] Dr. Nicole: you're- Especially in queer community.

[00:40:37] Dean: Like, we are stuck with each other. And so the idea that, like, I can kind of just, like, judge and, and, and ditch, like, the current friends or the current people I'm organizing with because there's, like, I've got some big anonymous audience out there with better people I'm gonna climb is super fucking toxic.

And it's like, well, how would you treat the people around you if you thought, like, these people are re- gonna be the ones who are here when I'm in a crisis next? Right. Or when, or are, I'm still gonna be seeing these people around in, in 20 years if we're alive. Like, 'cause that's how it actually is, you know?

Right. Um, and that kind of imagination of endless gluttony of connection, I think can, can lead to some of that, like a lot of ghosting, a lot of, you know-

[00:41:17] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:41:18] Dean: yeah.

[00:41:19] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. It's a huge, huge function of our society under capitalism. Next product, next thing, toss out the old one, you know? And so we do that in our relationships, and so it- it's heartbreaking that we're, we're in a space where that is so deep in our communities.

And, and I really appreciate you naming your personal experience as well as some of the other people. I've, I feel like I've experienced both, as you named. It's not... I think that's, like, such an important update to the field of attachment, is that each relationship will bring out different sides of you.

Granted, you might have a predominant pattern, but each relationship will pull out things of you, sides of yourself that you never thought existed. Um, and if you have a predominant pattern, like you were saying, to really, like, put people up on a pedestal and look to them so much, maybe because as a child, like, you needed that love, right?

You were a child who needed that, and so when you're yearning, yearning, yearning, because that's very normal to co-regulate with a parent, makes sense to have that as a pattern. Or for your friend who you, who you named as more, um, what we'd say classically, quote, unquote, "avoidant," right? Doesn't wanna connect, doesn't wanna connect because maybe their parent was all up in their space all the time, helicoptering all the time, right?

It makes sense to say connection feels smothering, and so I want that out, right? Now- We need to be able to p- apply that compassion to ourselves. So many people really struggle to have that compassion first for the self, right? You see that that's your pattern, and we go down this deep, dark spiral of why am I so messed up?

Why do I do this? Why do I do this, right? It's because you're trying to keep yourself safe. I think when we can come back to that, that's where we then get to do the healing work and change it. But if you keep going down the self-criticism and attack and attack and attack, you're not gonna make any movement.

And then now a lot of people can apply that compassion to the self, but then the second it happens to somebody else, we like to use a big label, they're a narcissist. Fuck that guy. Like, absolutely not. Hate him. You know? Like, and then as you're saying, in communities then that begins the campaign phase where it's like, "Hey, he's a piece of shit.

If you're friends with him, then you're not friends with me," right? And then that's how the ecosystem of the community starts to just fall apart into these, uh, campaigns. And I think that was one of my biggest questions for you when I was thinking about getting to connect with you again today, was as someone who's dated in community and really experienced a lot of this, it's like when What is that line between community care, "Hey, this person did these things.

I'm really concerned about how they treat people and all of this," versus unhealthy gossip that's- Mm-hmm ... campaigning? And I, I know you're not God, as much as I wish you could be in this moment to give me the perfect A or B dichotomous way of knowing, but I'm curious how you kinda differentiate between, uh, healthy community safety and sharing of experience, and even just co-regulation, versus campaigning and unhealthy processing and gossip.

[00:44:23] Dean: Mm-hmm. I mean, I think the thing that makes... There's a few, I think, there, what I've been doing lately is rec- is rec- is recommending, like, a set of practices that I think can help us hold this. Hmm. So one is, like, when we have feedback for somebody, give it to them directly before posting online about it, things like that, right?

So, like, the first thing is even just, like, have they, have I given you the chance to know that you did that? And also, we all have to give you the feedback because, like, for me at least, it's sometimes the first five people who gave me the feedback about something important, I couldn't hear it. Yeah,

[00:44:51] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[00:44:51] Dean: Right? Like, that's, most of us require, especially if something, it really matters, that we're kind of n- not conscious of or that has a shame or shadow side. So all of us giving each other more direct feedback and before we go tell the entire world. The second thing is, we all do need to, like, rant and rave about how bad things are when we're really upset, so could the other person not tell others?

So if I come to you and I'm just like, "I can't believe this person is treating me this way in our dating or in our meeting or in our roommate situation," could you assume that's a confidential conversation and check it out with me if you really plan to tell others? Because that causes so much extra drama, and then I feel paranoid or the other person feels paranoid because people are talking about us, and it's like, I think that's, like, a ma- massively missing skill in our communities.

[00:45:37] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:45:37] Dean: And could you also encourage me to give the person direct feedback? And could you also discourage me from doing vengeful things? All of that would help. And so if we were all doing that, if we were holding people during a big emotional reaction and really, like, staying with them and not minimizing what happened to them and listening to them, but also not joining a campaign, but just, like, really being like, "Oh my God, Nicole, that sounds so disappointing.

Wow, that sounds so hard," you know, that kinda stuff. Yeah. Instead of, like, "Oh, it's not that big a deal," or, "Let me give you a piece of advice to shut you up"- Right ... or, "Let me go, you know, join the campaign." You know? I think a lot of people wouldn't go on rampages against one another- Right ... if they actually felt heard.

[00:46:12] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:46:13] Dean: And then also we wouldn't have the extra disorganization where like, "I can't believe you told everybody about this and you didn't come to me," all of that stuff- Right ... that leads to like now we're in a bigger fight that's, could be long-term and we're telling e- other people about how fucked up the other one is, and we're doing like stuff to try to protect our reputations.

And then there are instances, I mean, there are absolutely instances where if I am having, if I'm dating person after person in our community and being violent towards them, it might be appropriate if a new person who's my type moves to the community for you to be like, "Hey, Dean's like not a safe date," or like people have done these kinds of processes.

But I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about when is the appropriate time- Right ... for that kind of process. And for me, that would need to include that people have tried to work with the person to stop what they're doing, have tried to offer support, like multiple times. It's really hard to change patterns of harm.

And that people are like both protecting those who might be, you know, on my path of, you know. And also, you know, there's so much collaboration that people do with harm doers. You know, there's so much like our entire group knows that I keep sexually harassing every young person who joins and no one stops it.

Or, you know, so like stopping the cultural norm of supporting people doing especially sexual harm Doing the direct feedback stuff because a lot of what happens, you know, the point of transformative justice is to try to find right size responses. Mm-hmm. And a lot of the responses in our communities are not right sized.

They're either we didn't do anything to support the person who experienced harm or prevent harm, or we, you know, went out for blood and, like, I cheated on you, but now it's like you've all gotten me evicted and had me lose my job. And you know what I mean? Like, things that are just, like, not right sized, you know?

[00:47:51] Dr. Nicole: Right, right.

[00:47:52] Dean: I was just talking to some people last night about, like, they feel that in their community there's no discussion about how alcohol use impacts the safety of different events. Mm. So it's like- Sure ... that's like s- like, there's thing, often things we can all be doing to be like, what does lead to a lot of, uh, you know, or, um, or talking in our groups about doing relationship skills work in our groups or in our communities so that we have, like, even a shared narrative about how it's not great to become isolated in a romantic relationship.

Mm-hmm. That might really reduce or h- or doing, uh, you know, something I've talked about a lot with people, people often get really frustrated by a friend who's in a relationship they don't approve of- Mm ... where they don't feel their friend's being treated well.

[00:48:33] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:48:33] Dean: And then they ditch their friend.

[00:48:34] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:48:34] Dean: They're like, "I'm so annoyed, Nicole. It's the third time you've told me how much you wanted to leave this person and you're not doing it, and I'm so sick of hearing it." Yeah. And then I start giving you the cold shoulder. But it takes people, I think the research is like it takes people an average of, like, five or seven times of h- going to a crisis point, often in a relationship, before- Right

really considering changing it. Yeah. Because it's really hard in our society to leave relationships for lots of good reasons- Right ... that are very, you know, structural and emotional. Yeah. So, like, can we stick with people longer? Can we be supportive of people even when they're in relationships we don't like because it's for their safety and we don't want them to be further isolated?

And isolation is one of the main things that bad relationships do. I don't- Right ... I just think there's all these things we can work on.

[00:49:12] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:49:13] Dean: That, because the question you're asking, of course, i- as you say, it's impossible to know exactly when that moment is, but there's like 600 things we could do that would make that moment less consequential.

That moment is so consequential when you're basically on your own.

[00:49:25] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:49:25] Dean: And you don't have any support, and, you know, you've been through something horrible, and no one's listening to you, and all you can do is go on this campaign. And, like, that, it's like so much is setting that up for you and all the people around you, and the person who's doing something uncool to you that we would want them to stop.

[00:49:42] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:42] Dean: I feel like the fundamental question is always, like, what will make the person who's doing something harmful stop? Yeah. Like, what would they need? Who would they need to hear from? What's, what might be contributing to it? What are they misunderstanding? What would make the person who's getting, or people who are getting harmed, like, be able to feel like they were heard, they could still participate in community?

We can't make it never have happened. Mm-hmm. But can we be like, what do you need to still be able to come to the gym or to the meeting or, like, whatever it is, these sites that have been, ha- that you might feel isolated from now? Right. And to feel like you have people who care about you. And what do we as a whole community need to do to assess what, h- how the setting we created- cultivated this?

What were we all doing that made this more likely to happen, and could we do something different? Like, do people need rides, or do people need-

[00:50:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:50:27] Dean: d- or do we need to talk more about consent in our community? Mm-hmm. Or do we need... What, what do we need to talk more about h- how to use party drugs in ways where the people are supported?

Like, what do we need?

[00:50:37] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:50:37] Dean: I feel like those three questions, people always want the sh- to instead go to like- ... who's bad? Who's bad here?

[00:50:42] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. You know? Exactly. Right. Well, 'cause it's so much easier for our psyches, right? Black and white. Black and white. Good, bad. Black and white. We- it's really hard to sit with the nuance, let alone the nuance of two conflicting emotions at the same time in the psyche.

You know, we can have literally the opposite emotions at the same time about an occurrence, a person, all of it. That's a lot to hold rather than trying to stay in the one black or white. And I mean, all of this, as you were speaking, it's like, ugh, in my last year of my life of navigating this in my own communities, it's like shut off my sexuality in the strongest way.

Mm-hmm. You know? Like, which I think is an appro- I'm sorry. It's an appro- It sucks, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but I mean, it's an a- it... Yeah, thank you. It's an appropriate, um-

When I was listening to your episode with, uh, another person, it was like, um, remembering that we're all growing and learning together, you know? And so no matter where, you know, you, me, all the listeners, when you're doing this sort of exploration, it's gonna be messy, especially when you bring in sexuality and you're trying to have multiple sexual dynamics in a community space, whether it's a gym, a workspace, or any of that.

It's gon- you start to feel all the things that you just said, and my body has been, like, uh... You know, you come into the open connecting space so optimistic, so, "Wow, this is so beautiful. We're all gonna connect," and then you get there, and you're like, "Oh, this is actually really complicated. I wanna vet people way better before, and, like, really assess if this is someone that I even wanna cross into that complex space of navigating all of this hot caramel terrain."

Like, I mean, with the people I feel safe to do that with, my sexuality is alive and well, but, like, the optimism that I once had about, like, these super transformative communities, like, it's in such a space of, like, I, I think a bit more realism. You know, just in terms of, like, our current context and set and setting does not make this easy for any group.

And so you have to hold all those sorts of questions that you're asking, as well as, I, the question of what sort of traumas from myself are projecting into the situation to make it worse than it really is. And that's where I think it is, you know, again, as you, as you named, you gotta be careful of who you're processing with, and it starts to get even more complex when everybody's interconnected, where anybody in your close circle is going to be impacted by the story you tell of the trauma that you're processing.

It gets much harder when we're, we're so in community, but the community is your, your place to process. It's a little easier when you got that friend in a different state where you can get a little bit of a sounding feedback board. But you, you wanna be able to process with other people to, like, assess, like, is this my own sexual trauma that's making me project onto this person, like, this whole experience?

And sometimes it is, right? And so we have to be able to sit in all of that. But I do think that it's a good place to be. Like, if when we're connecting and going through conflict, if all of us were to get curious and ask, "Am I campaigning, or is this community care?" Even that question alone, great. The fact that we're pausing for that question, yes, great.

Great place to start, and get really critical about

[00:53:51] Dean: Yeah, and also I think when we're listening to someone else's story, like they're really frustrated by something that happened in the meeting or with their lover or with their roommate or whatever, just noticing, do I have like autopilot reactions that come up?

Mm. Do I want to shut you up with advice? Do I want to merge in loyalty so thoroughly- Yeah ... that I stir up even more emotion in you? A lot of these things were learned in our families. Do I wanna go talk shit around the community for you, and when I see them again feel like bad about them in the space?

Like, what did I learn growing up was the right thing to do when someone else is upset? I think this is a lot of why people don't keep each other's confidences and actually like stir the pot and make community conflict worse- Yeah ... is 'cause we're not tracking our own responses.

[00:54:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:37] Dean: So I'm just like, okay, S- Nicole was really upset in telling me about it.

What are my principles again? I want Nicole to not have any consequences that weren't intended by like me going around and saying what you said to everybody. I want Nicole to feel heard, so I want to try to keep my attention, not get too distracted, not make it about me.

[00:54:56] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:54:57] Dean: I want to, um, like hear you all the way out, and I also want to remember your principles.

Like if we're friends, I want to remember like Nicole doesn't really believe in revenge, so even if she's considering revenge right now, I'm gonna be here helping her hold onto her principles. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like this kind of stuff, like can I have intentions? And a lot of times the person who's ranting and raving to you isn't like your good friend or it's like somebody in the meeting who just rants and raves at everybody.

And I'm like, could I just also be fucking patient and compassionate about that? I can still be like, "Oh, half an hour's gone by. I gotta go." But like-

[00:55:26] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:55:26] Dean: I feel like there's a kind of like I could judge someone who does that a lot, or I could just be like, that's where they're at, dude.

[00:55:32] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Like,

[00:55:34] Dean: uh, may they be well.

Can I be a force of non-harm in being one of the cushions that catches them? Or if I can't do it, I can, I can not do it. But like I, my own hope for myself is that I can become responsive to conditions that are happening around me- Like, and as flexible about that as possible with the kinds of people who might appear before me, doing what kinds, in what kinds of states.

H- have boundaries so that I know I'm say- I know I'm saying yes on purpose and that I'm not being forced to do this and I'm not telling myself that I'm the victim 'cause I'm having to listen to somebody or-

[00:56:08] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:56:09] Dean: hear them out or whatever. But can I just, like, help us all in my tiny way? Could we all do this?

Like, stay on track by, like, we are a bunch of toddlers going around freaking out. Can I hold your toddler with you for a few minutes if that's necessary, and not go and tell everybody what your toddler said about them, you know? Mm-hmm. I just, it's like... And I, and, and also know that I don't have to do it.

Like, but for me, I actually want to do that. Yeah. I, that is one of the, that's one of the ways I would like to be of service, maybe also because I'm old and have heard it all before, you know? Yeah. And maybe I especially wanna support younger people who are having reactive experiences because they're doing stuff for the first time, which is so much harder than doing it for the 17th time.

It's so much harder to start dating or do kink or do polyamory or- Yeah ... join a group you really care about or decide to break the law together, all those things when you're new at it. Mm-hmm. It's like, of course, and that's beautiful. And can, can we all, like... And that's not always young people. Sometimes you meet someone who's very old and doing something for the first time.

Right. We're, hopefully we're all doing new things all the time, but, like, can we just accompany each other-

[00:57:14] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:57:15] Dean: a bit, you know? It's like- Mm-hmm ... I do feel like it is some kind of, like, parental energy of just, like, I'm gonna just kinda be a stable ground for a moment while you, if you need to have a bit of a explosion of feeling or- Yeah

go through kind of a wave of emotion or reaction, and I'm gonna try to help y- you, you remember all the other things about you too, when, when you're ready.

[00:57:37] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:57:38] Dean: Like, in case you were about to go off the deep end of something that's not really, the action that doesn't really sound like your values, you know?

[00:57:43] Dr. Nicole: Right. Right, and that's what it means to be an elder.

[00:57:47] Dean: Yeah, or just a friend or whatever, you know- ... comrade, you know? Yeah,

[00:57:49] Dr. Nicole: yeah. Exactly. Someone who has at least walked the path to know some of the, like, the, the point, the arrows, the, um, the signposts, right?

[00:57:58] Dean: I was just trying to make the book to be a, to actually just give people a f- shortcut.

Yeah, yeah. I'm just like, "This is the book I wish I had when I was 20." You know, these are the common pa- Yeah ... 'cause that's the thing with the self-help literature at its best is, like, here are the common patterns. Yeah. But the self-help literature is, like, terrible and racist and sexist and all that stuff.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like, even, even if I, even though I've never gone through it before, even if I'm somebody who doesn't date, but I- Mm-hmm ... but you're my friend and you date and I'm, like, seeing the romance within you, can I be like, can I still, like, help, help you signpost that?

[00:58:24] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:58:24] Dean: Even if I haven't been through it.

You know? Mm-hmm. Could we just know, in the same way that we can study the ways that racism or patriarchy or anything comes up in our lives and s- and be like, "Hey, wait. We're spotting it together. Let's work with this in a different way," you know?

[00:58:38] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And as you named, it's so important to really slow down and be present with your friend who's in that space, right?

Because when you're in so much of that pain and suffering when something has occurred, a lot of this is grief work that we don't have the skills for, right? And so if I come to you and you try to be the calm person who's, um... Maybe let's go for the w- um, first case scenario that I don't love, is when I come to a person and a friend will go, "Oh, well, they're an asshole."

I'm like, "Ah, that does not sit with me," right? Because at least my, like, therapist brain is always thinking about how we try to keep ourselves safe and connected And even some of the most maladaptive things are attempts at that, right? Whether connection was unsafe, again, going back to the helicopter person, push away, push away, push away 'cause I need to stay connected to self.

Or the opposite, right? In terms of, uh, I want connection so I'm gonna negate the self. I, I don't, I don't find it helpful to say like, "Oh, that person's an asshole," or, "That person's blank, blank, blank." It, it feels like it's, um, like the tip of the iceberg and missing the whole thing that's underneath. And so for me, that feels like a moment where, like, my pain is being shut down because we're just trying to slap this very simple Band-Aid on the top of, like, a sinking ship.

And also, like you said, not shutting people down in terms of simple platitudes or advice because, um, let's say it goes back to the still face experiment with the baby. Uh, for the listener who doesn't know, they did these experience, uh, experiments with m- uh, parents where the baby would be reacting and then the parent would attune to them with similar reactions.

And then they had the baby be there and then the parent be completely still, completely flat. And as that happened, the child started flailing and trying to make attempts for connection, screaming and crying because it's so unnatural for us to be sitting across from someone who's completely flat, which we can talk about the tabula rasa of psychology and the whole thing there.

It's the whole ... So it's not healthy to be completely flat, to be clear. And so if you come to someone in all that suffering and you're like, "Ah, it's okay. Whatever," like, that is going to amplify them even more. Like, "I need to go on this campaign. No one is seeing me," right? Yeah. And so we do play a very crucial role when our friends do come to us of like, "Hey, this sounds really tough.

I see." Like a lot of reflective listening and mirroring back. Like, "I hear you saying this. I hear it's impacting you in this way. I'm hearing that this happened." And that does a lot of work to feel seen. Again, like the baby and the reaction, right? You feel attuned to again. And then maybe, "Hey, yeah, rather than doing that crazy thing, can we go over here and like, you know, burn some paper together of what you wanna release?

Or go on a run and actually, like, quite literally move. Take a boxing class. You got a lot of anger? Let's go take a actual boxing class and, like, get that out." In terms of somatic rituals that we can do as well as meaning making rituals if we wanna, like, burn some paper or things that feel like we're releasing stuff.

Like-

[01:01:30] Dean: Yeah ...

[01:01:30] Dr. Nicole: it comes back to- Cutting cords

[01:01:31] Dean: with people.

[01:01:33] Dr. Nicole: Totally. It's like grief rituals- Love it ... that we don't have skills for essentially.

[01:01:37] Dean: Yeah. It's interesting, too, like something I've been thinking a lot about is resentment. And, and I've been doing some more workshops on this recently. Like-

[01:01:45] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[01:01:45] Dean: there's so much resentment in our communities for good reasons, right?

Yeah. Like we're all living in a coercive society. We've been forced to work and go to school under terrible conditions. We've not had choice in our lives. People have not shown us solidarity. People have been relentlessly sexist and racist and ableist and, you know, it's like there's so many reasons to feel resentful.

But the problem with the resentment Is that it can be, it can make you become, like you feel like you're being em- empowered when you actually are being, like, unsatisfiable. Like, no amount of apology will ever be enough. I see this a lot in, in- Yeah ... in community groups. Like, you know, people try to make repair, and it's like, "I just want you to suffer forever."

That, like, resentment can drive that. Resentment can drive, like, "I'm so powerful, I refuse to meet with you, Nicole, about our disagreement." Mm. Like, it's like I think I'm empowering myself, but I'm isolating myself.

[01:02:30] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:02:30] Dean: And I'm not experiencing the real grief, heartba- break, betrayal, terror that the situation brought up.

Instead, I'm getting stuck in, like, a thought pattern about how bad you are and how good I am, and how I need other people to see it, or how I need to withdraw my energy from our group or from our household, or like, when people just get into these, like, contempt patterns, and that really worries me. The unsatisfiability really worries me.

Like, we, like, we need to complete the cycle. I need to... You need to become someone who can give me a good apology, and I need to become someone who can actually be like, "You know what? Okay. Like, I can see that you're trying not to do it again. Maybe it wasn't exactly perfect. We didn't see it exactly the same way, but I don't need to punish you for the rest of your life and stigmatize you in our community or keep you out."

Like, it's just, like, how do we notice spaces where we've become unsatisfiable?

[01:03:20] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:03:21] Dean: And how do we support one another to, like, let in? Like, 'cause the thing about forgiveness is it's truly, like, I have to recognize how we can never undo it. The thing you did- Yeah ... to me that-

[01:03:33] Dr. Nicole: Right ...

[01:03:33] Dean: hurt me, like, I, we can never go back to a time when it didn't happen.

So grief is the missing element that ca- I think causes resentment, 'cause it's like since you can't restore me to before this happened, like, I have to grieve it and be like, "Okay, and I've decided to move on because the resentment is poisonous for me."

[01:03:56] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I think about how painful it is to open up those narratives, right? These tender parts of our lives where we've created this narrative of bad person. You're asking me, Dean, to go back into that, to open up that wound, the part that I have really closed with this simple narrative of bad person, never talking to them again, e- like excommunicated, throwing them away, right?

Which I know we don't stand for. But like that's the safe space. And so you're asking me- Mm-hmm ... to really open all of that back up and now create a new, more nuanced, complex narrative of that person being a fallible human, the concepts of transformative justice. That's scary. I felt, quote, unquote, "security" by this very simple narrative And then the deeper question too is, is that person who caused the harm ready to come to the table with accountability?

And even that, that's that other piece too. Even if the person who's been hurt is re- says like, "I am ready to open up that wound and to create a, a more nuanced story," and all that, but if that other person comes to the table and still refuses to acknowledge the ways that they were a participant in this, you could actually get re-harmed, which is a whole other piece.

'Cause the complexity of all is, all of this is that humans are, uh, very, uh, uh, uncontrollable variables. You know, here's the pain, it's, it's part of what we love about it. I also think- Yeah. Go

[01:05:18] Dean: ahead. Yeah, I also think that the other person doesn't have to participate.

[01:05:21] Dr. Nicole: Mm,

[01:05:21] Dean: interesting. I have done that process when the other person was dead, right?

Okay. I think that's the other thing too, like I can decide to let go of resentment even if the other person doesn't think they did anything wrong, is dead, is d- not emotionally capable of having a real conversation about anything, which so many people's parents and- Yeah, yeah ... other harm doers are not.

Yeah. Right, right. But I, like, I can still ... I, I, I actually had this experience. I don't know if other people have this, but the process of beginning to have babies in my life and-

[01:05:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[01:05:46] Dean: living with my nephews and other, having a lot of babies around, and I was like, "Oh-" No matter what the caregivers, my parents and foster parents and whatever didn't do, if I'm alive, I experienced an enormous amount of care.

And I tried to really let that rewrite the story of my early childhood. Like, I can't remember that care, but I obviously received so much care and it, and I had spent some y- years doing healing work where I let myself see what I had not received, and that was important- Mm. Mm ... for understanding some of my wounding patterns and some of my own- Yeah

behavior.

[01:06:20] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:06:20] Dean: But then it was equally important to be like, "Oh my God, I received so much care. I do not need to have a simple story about any of these people, as limited as their capacities were in some ways," and also, like, letting in more what they lived through, what woundings brought their limitations as caregivers or adults around me, and just like-

[01:06:40] Dr. Nicole: Yeah

[01:06:40] Dean: this lifetime process of growing more compassion for people who have been challenging for me. And nobody has to do this. You cannot do this because someone tells you to do it. And forgiveness- Mm ... or any of these things are... Like, they can never be mandatory. But it's actually, like, liberating for me. Like, I'm not doing it because they deserve to be free of it or whatever.

Most of them, they're pretty much dead. But like- Yeah ... I'm doing it so that I can be free of this rigid, narrow place, and so that I can become more forgiving of all people and just have more space for how everybody is w- right now, when we do something to each other right now, not years later. Because I've actually deeply let myself learn about, yeah, what you said, that people are fallible, that everyone's actually doing their best even when it's- Yeah

so shitty. Mm-hmm. That there are deep causes and conditions for everything that's going on that is unsatisfactory and painful and violent, you know? And, and again, n- like, none of this is about anyone having to do this. But I just think, like, for those of us who feel that resentment is limiting some part of our experience, it can be really relieving.

[01:07:47] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, what's the saying? It's like, uh, resentment is wanting your- When

[01:07:51] Dean: I drink the poison and think it's gonna kill you.

[01:07:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. It's a saying for a reason.

[01:07:58] Dean: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:00] Dr. Nicole: And I'm curious for you, when you're going through all these experiences, navigating with, uh, all the different people in your community, feeling where you have the space to have these conversations rather than having to have them on your own, you had also named that because of your experience in the past, it was hard to attune to yourself and notice when you really liked the people around you or all these other things.

I'm curious for you, what are some of the signs now that you notice in yourself that maybe you didn't know when you were younger?

[01:08:33] Dean: That's a great question. I think there's like a kind of checking in with myself that I now actually do even during the hangout or conversation, or but so- or sometimes it's after it.

Mm-hmm. Sometimes it's like just like an hour after it or something where I'm just like, "Oh, do I really wanna spend more time with that person, or am I on autopilot of like I want them to feel that I wanna spend more time with them? I'm orienting towards what they want." Or-

[01:09:01] Dr. Nicole: Right ...

[01:09:02] Dean: like, I think I, I think when I was a kid, I turned off my intuition about people being like a little weird or overstepping my boundaries and things like that because I just- Yeah

needed-

[01:09:10] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[01:09:10] Dean: to get, get by with, with connection with people. So just like paying attention to that. I think I spent years paying attention to how my friends who had a better skill with that did it.

[01:09:20] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:09:20] Dean: It's like how do you know that person feels- Right ... not like someone you wanna spend more time with or that you don't wanna...

I mean, when I was really young, I didn't, couldn't even tell if I had a crush on somebody or if they just had a crush on me. Mm. I just was like, "Oh, I'm supposed to, I'm supposed to like them back." I was so- just like that-

[01:09:33] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[01:09:34] Dean: kind of orientation. So I think just like years of paying attention to how other people did it, and then maybe even it's just even bothering to ask the question.

Yeah. Like, even thinking that is or that is relevant. Like, what do I like? What do I want? And then also, like, experiments in relationships with friends, all kinds of people, of being like, "Oh, I'm gonna assert my preference."

[01:09:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:09:55] Dean: Instead of like, I should just be really interested in whatever they like and have, want, you know, to eat, to go, where to go.

You know, like, just years of that. And of course, I think there's always also always been another side. There's other parts of my life where, uh, people where, where I'm controlling or where I'm oversharing- Sure ... my preferences or I'm rigid. You know, it's like all these things, but you know, it's, it's all- Humbling

we're all behaving on all sides of the coin. Yeah. But I think, um, for me, especially with like, you know, I do book events. I'll meet like 50 people in a night, like a lo- frequently, you know?

[01:10:24] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah.

[01:10:24] Dean: And I have to really be like, can I feel myself?

[01:10:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:10:27] Dean: Do I... Am I getting swept up in the energy of what someone else wants?

What do I want? Yeah. And I think that's become, over time with tons and tons and tons of practice, like, because I've been doing a lot of public work for, you know, almost 30 years. Like, uh, just a little more like I, like the question occurs to me. Yeah. Oftentimes in conversation with somebody, I'm really much an e- like an external processor and-

[01:10:51] Dr. Nicole: Mm

[01:10:51] Dean: often it's like I'm, I'm with a friend or a lover and I'm like "Whoa, the end of that event felt like this," or, "I think I... I'm not sure if that person's somebody I wanna spend more time with," or whatever, you know?

[01:11:02] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. It sounds like a embodied meditation with yourself, an embodied connection present with yourself, uh, a practice where you're scanning, right?

Mm-hmm. Whether it's the actual somatic experience or the mental experience, and obviously those are connected, but really assessing for yourself whether it feels like something that brings more, more connection, the th- the values in your life, the things that feel authentic to you.

[01:11:32] Dean: There's also, like, a pragmatic thing about time specifically.

Oh,

[01:11:35] Dr. Nicole: sure. Yeah.

[01:11:35] Dean: I don't know if anyone who's listening can relate to this, but, like, I have this thing where if f- if I see any gap in my schedule, and then someone asks me anything, I immediately am like, "Oh, yes, either I have a half an hour free on Tuesday, December 18th," or you know, like- Yeah, exactly

literally that's how it is. So I have had to be like, and I've had so much feedback from my intimate people- Yeah ... that I severely overwork. They don't feel like they have time with me. Mm. This has been, you know, years and years of working on this. I've used the 12-step program, Workaholics Anonymous. Well- So this kind of thing of being like- Don't promise your time.

[01:12:04] Dr. Nicole: Yeah

[01:12:05] Dean: Like, in this conversation if you were like, "Dean, can you have a Zoom with me, you know, next week?" I would be like, "I'll get back to you." Like, I just sometimes... Or if you were like, "Dean, can you come speak to my class this day?" I'd be like, "I'll get back to you." I just, a waiting period-

[01:12:19] Dr. Nicole: Yes ...

[01:12:19] Dean: where I'm like, wait, what is else are the, the 700,000 other things that I-

have not done in a long time, like had any time alone or, you know, exercised- Or laundry. ... or I really wanted to, you know, uh, like connect with this other person, and we've been looking for a time for a long time, and now I'm just giving it to the first person. You know, just- Yeah ... I, I, like it's, and there was a period of time where I couldn't accept any speaking engagements without running them by my dear friend Angelica.

[01:12:43] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:12:44] Dean: You know, because I just, I would, I would forget. If you imagine there's a column of pros and cons, I couldn't even imagine the cons column about anything that involved connection. I just wanted to say yes to anybody because, oh my God, they're radical and they believe in this work, and they want something from me, and I wanna give to- Yeah

you know what I mean? And-

[01:12:57] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[01:12:58] Dean: and I just like had all these rationales for my usual, you know, which is fundamentally this trauma thing. And, and I, I just had to be like, "S- I need to talk to Angelica," and she can be like, "Dean, that, that's gonna take like 24 hours for you to travel to that place to do this event, and da-da-da.

Or, you know, actually, yes, that's a great time of year for you to go there and that," you know, whatever. Like, just help me, uh, get control of the monster- Yeah ... within, the yes monster, you know?

[01:13:26] Dr. Nicole: Right. Right, and so where you're at today I'm sure is even more connected than at the beginning. I'm thinking about the longevity of your life, right?

It's a continued relationship. And so I would hope that in the coming years you keep building off of this connection- Mm ... right, of knowing what it feels like to be really present with yourself and have that no, and the waiting period, right? And so it, it really is that practice. And, and in that way I see it as very meditative.

[01:13:50] Dean: Yeah, I mean, so much of this has also been built for me by doing, like, long silent meditation retreats.

[01:13:55] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:13:56] Dean: Because then I watch all the thinking- ... and it's so, the connection wound shows up so much. Like, I'll be on, the first day of the retreat I'm sitting there thinking about people who I should probably get in touch with later and what email I'm gonna write.

It's like I just notice- Yeah ... my coping mechanisms, which can just find little homes all day in my normal life. If you take the retreat, if you go to a retreat and take all the communication away, I get to find out about what is just automatic, you know, automatically generated, and then be like, oh, I want more critical distance between myself and that habit.

[01:14:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:14:26] Dean: I wanna ch- I wanna be choosing when I do that. I wanna know why I'm reaching out to someone or why I'm responding or saying yes, you know?

[01:14:32] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, the power of responding rather than reacting. And again, if we're asking ourselves those questions, right? Is this, um... Again, not simple verifications, but is this campaigning or is this community care, right?

That question is the pause moment. That moment someone asks you to do the event, right, and you pause, you wait, right? That's the power of- Responding rather than just immediate, um, flinch or what, what's the word, autonomic sort of reacting in terms of just whatever our patterns are, both in the body and in the mind.

And so that's such an important skill. When I, I think about the, the feminist revolution of psychology, they talked a lot about zest as a sign of a good relationship, which is that ener- energy, that feeling of a life force, that feeling of connection. And they would say that good relationships make you want to be connected more.

And so I feel like that's always been something that I think about, too, is, um, who are the people in my life that make me want to connect with more people? Those experiences where I really get out of, um, a call or a connection or something like that, and then I feel like, wow, I was pulled in myself, like feeling like I need to recharge.

And obviously there's a lot of that work in the movement, and as a therapist there's a lot of that work. Sometimes I get out of really tough sessions. That's part of my job, right? But in my communities, I try to be as, as conscious as possible about what sort of relationships make me wanna expand and connect with more people versus the ones that really pull me back and inward into myself and feeling like I need to retreat.

Uh, and, and I, I also really like the metaphor, um, they had given in one of the books called, um, The Relational Revolution: This Changes Everything in Psychology. They talked about tuning forks- Mm ... and how you can have eight tuning forks in one pitch, and when you come in with a ninth, it changes all of them if it's in a different pitch.

And I feel like so many times me, myself, my clients, people in my community will, will have, like, a really strong community, and then we make a new connection that's very different, different pitch, and we go, "Why do I feel so off? Why does everything feel so different? Why is... What's wrong with me that I can't withstand this thing coming into my life?"

And I feel like it's been a A long process of accepting the fact that, like, people quite literally bring... This is gonna sound so woo-woo, but, like, bring an energy into your experience, similar to a tuning fork. And even if it's just by the voice, right? Like, all the listeners who are tuning in right now, you're hearing the frequency of my, my tone.

And if I was yelling at you this entire time, it's going through your ears, and you would process that as, like, something to be activated about. And so I think it is, my younger self would hate how woo-woo it sounds, but to think about, like, what sort of, uh, energy people are bringing into your life. And that's not to say to, like, push out people who aren't aligned, but how do you find enough balance, and then also compassion for yourself when you are impacted by that, that that's not a sign of weakness.

It's actually a part of what it means to be attuned, is that people are going to impact you. And I hope that you have the, the skills, and the resilience, and the community to go back and get recharged before going into that work.

[01:17:37] Dean: Mm-hmm. Yeah, you know, I, I used to study with Generative Somatics for many years- Mm

and we would do these kind of like yes, no, maybe practices- Oh, mm-hmm ... that were like somatic practices. And it helped me understand where do I do an automatic yes, or an automatic no, or an automatic may- I personally don't do a lot of automatic maybes. Some people go to maybe quickly 'cause they're like-

[01:17:57] Dr. Nicole: Sure

[01:17:58] Dean: it's a, it's a way to not have to respond. Yeah. Um, you know, but, but most of us have these. Like, some people are like, "Oh, I'm an automatic no about, like, if you're like, 'Do you wanna ride on my handlebars, D?'" And like, most, like, physical adventure that's, like, scary in that way- Yeah ... I'm like an automatic no.

[01:18:12] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:18:12] Dean: Um, but I'm an automatic yes often to, as we said, like, social things, or work, or there's... And so just, like, finding out where we are just on autopilot versus actually, like you said, like responding. And in the book I included this, like, yes-no calculator.

[01:18:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:18:27] Dean: Like, just a set of questions to ask ourselves because I think sometimes, uh, like self-help stuff is just used, like, at the kind of meme level to just be like, to just, like, justify our reactivity.

[01:18:37] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:18:38] Dean: And like, I found out that, that this is hard for me, so no one can ever approach me with it again or something, you know, really, like, um- Not growthful. What I want is to become more responsive to current reality, which means trying to shed the automatic responses, whether that's the romance myth or, like, I can't say no when someone asks me to do work for our community.

You know, like, even if it's n- even if I can't fit it in or it's not as important as something else I also need to do or whatever. Um, and so, like, even just acknowledging that we might be on autopilot with our yeses and nos and maybes, and that we might wanna try for something else, and that is very uncomfortable.

It's so... Like, there are times when I have felt like I had, like, s- six nos to say in email that were all things I really wanted to say yes to- Mm ... 'cause I cared about the person who was asking or 'cause I cared about the topic or- Yeah ... whatever, and I had to say no to them. And I felt like it was the most exhausting work I did all day.

Mm. Even though it was just six emails, and maybe that day I also, like, facilitated several long meetings or other things- Yeah ... that are harder or, like, walked across town or something. Um, but, like, doing the thing that isn't the thing you usually do is very uncomfortable. And just, like, that's... I mean, people, I'm sure a lot of people experience this during, like, times of the year where they see their family, you know?

Or, you know, it's like, it's so uncomfortable to, like, try to-

[01:19:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[01:19:53] Dean: see your natal family and not do what you usually do. Yeah. And you're like, I'm, I refuse to do, you know. Or where they're gonna say no to a lover about something they've always just said yes to, or where they're gonna say yes about something they've always said no to or whatever.

[01:20:04] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:20:04] Dean: I just think, like, it's, it's, it's hard. Mm-hmm. And it's okay that it's hard. Like, as, as long as you feel like it's a choice to try it, and as long as you can find inside yourself, like in somatics they say, like, for the sake of what?

[01:20:17] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:20:17] Dean: Like, God, seems so hard. It would be so much easier just to say yes to these things and then be, like, miserable later when I had to do them or be ill 'cause they're more than I could do- Right

or do them poorly or whatever. But, like, for the sake of what am I doing this uncomfortable thing? And re- and having a, remembering your purpose. Like, I wanna feel this, or I wanna- Right ... not end up in this situation again.

[01:20:36] Dr. Nicole: Right. Right. Whoever said that dismantling systems of oppression would be easy?

[01:20:41] Dean: Really.

[01:20:42] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I think we all want it, right? We're like, "Give me the pill," like, right? Easy. I'll just take it, solve the equation. But I think it, it requires a lot of, um, wisdom to know that growth comes in the discomfort.

[01:20:56] Dean: Yeah. Yeah, I was thinking yesterday about how a lot of times when people receive feedback- Mm-hmm something from someone, what they want is just like, "Just give me the rule.

Just tell me what I don't, shouldn't do again." But the real work of feedback is what did I feel like before I did the thing that landed on you wrong?

[01:21:17] Dr. Nicole: Hmm.

[01:21:18] Dean: Like, what was going on? What was actually motivating me? Like, what... You know, like, if something was really off, and that is such a harder inquiry and so much more vulnerable.

But when we just are trying to be like, "Fine, Nicole, just tell me what to not say next time," you know? Yeah. Instead of like, really what was going on for me when I stormed into the house and said this or that to you, or, you know, just all the things that people do to each other, especially in intimate relationships.

Like, being willing to be like, "Oh, I was in a moment of grandiosity," or, "I was actually in a moment... I really wanted you to think I was cool in this way," or, "I really wanted to sabotage our relationship," or I... And some of it is unknowable 'cause a lot of our lives are unconscious to ourselves, but even being, like, curious.

Yeah. Um, like I think most people are not doing that kind of accountability on most things, you know?

[01:22:05] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:22:05] Dean: And it's like so hard to do.

[01:22:08] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. And that's why that muscle of curiosity I feel like is, uh, the biggest step is like- Mm-hmm ... where am I coming from? Why? And, and asking those questions before we respond, right?

Before we do that thing, before you send the text, before you post that thing, right? If you could do that sort of work, and then the difficult part is, of course, that it changes over time. The why of why you did that thing at that moment will be different in five days, five years when you look back on it, 'cause we keep just making more narrative and story and meaning making, and we're like, "I didn't realize at the time, but it was also this."

So there's definitely not gonna be that point where you've hit, like, peak level of insight to be able to know why you did that thing or this thing or that. As much as I wish, you know... Again, prepping for this conversation, I was like, "Dean, give me the answers between community-"

[01:22:56] Dean: But we can stop doing things.

You know, we do. Yeah. I think it's like some things, s- not everything, but I- it's like wh- I think about the way some of the choices I made about my sexual life in my 20s and what kind of investigation I did to be like, "How did I get myself into this weird tangle?" Yeah ... whatever. And like I don't do some of those things anymore, and like t- didn't, haven't done them for a long time, or like I can receive feedback from, you know, I always the example I always think about is my boyfriend, who's like, "Stuff I always wanted to move in the house or- Yeah

living together." And I'm like, "All right, move, I move his stuff." I'm like, "Oh, someone's coming over. I want it to be clean on the table." I, you know, which like I ha- it, like it was, it was a lot of fits and starts to learn to stop moving his stuff, you know? But I think I... Like you know, it was years of practice- Yeah.

Right ... to be like, "What's going on in me?" Shame about the mess, some idea about how I'll be judged by this friend that's really based in nothing, 'cause this friend loves me and doesn't care if there's, you know, someone's stuff is on the table. But like-

[01:23:50] Dr. Nicole: Right ...

[01:23:51] Dean: just like I'm, this is landing on someone else in a way that I have a justification for it in my mind, but it's not acceptable.

This is not, doesn't feel good to someone who lives here , you know? And just like we c- I just think we can, if we're not, if we're, if we practice non-defensiveness as much as possible, and we keep giving the feedback also. Like he had to keep giving me the feedback. I was not, it was not gonna be an easy one, you know?

Yeah. He had to, he had to take that risk. I take the risk of hearing it. Eventually it could be funny, you know? But years- Yeah ... took years , you know? Yeah. And that's harder when it's stuff like my relationship to your substance use, or that your dishonesty, or your, um, you know, compulsive relationship to spending money, or all, all those zillions of things we're all doing that are hard for people in our lives, you know?

[01:24:36] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I hear you speaking to the hope and optimism for change, to not lose sight and that to know that change is possible.

[01:24:45] Dean: Yes. I think it can be good to remind ourselves we have already changed a lot of times. Yeah. I find a lot of people I know are just, like, ashamed to still be dealing with whatever behavior they wish they weren't doing or, "Oh, I can't believe I'm dating someone like this again," or, "I can't believe I fucked up this work thing again, and I'm procrastinating," or whatever they're blaming themselves for.

And just like, you've changed before

It's not impossible. And also, it's okay to, like, keep running into our wounds. They're our wounds. Like, this is the- Right ... this is the hand you were dealt. It's, it's gonna come up again.

[01:25:12] Dr. Nicole: Right. Right. Absolutely. I really appreciate that invitation to hope in this process, and the, and the calling it closer to know the reality that we'll be doing that for a lifetime.

And so you gotta find the pleasure, the joy in that process of growing, messing up, and getting back up again, right? 'Cause we'll, we'll die one day still being like, "Ah, there was more to that." And if you constantly spend your life, like, grinding at yourself so hard, you'll miss out on all the joy, right? So it's that, like, deep dance between the yes and of, uh, so much more to learn, and also I've learned in so many ways, and there's still more, and I'm still messing up, but I'm also have learned so many things.

And again, that's like the emotional maturity to hold conflicting emotions and feelings at the same time.

[01:25:58] Dean: And believing that other people can change. Yeah. I mean, this is really big. Like, as in I'm just like, oh, I was in a group and Nicole, and she d- dropped the ball on this project, or she d- said this thing I didn't like that made me think she's got the wrong politics.

Or th- then I'm just like f- freeze-frame you for life.

[01:26:13] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Like,

[01:26:14] Dean: I, I have to beli- also, I have to believe people can change to be willing to take the risk of giving feedback.

[01:26:18] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[01:26:19] Dean: And a lot of us are not r- taking that risk of giving feedback, so then the change is not happening. Mm. So it's like I, I need to believe in my capacity to change so that I can believe in yours.

[01:26:27] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. Exactly. Well, Dean, it's clear that I could talk to you for hours on these subjects. It's such a joy to have you on the podcast, and I love everywhere that we've really touched into. And it, it feels like hitting on so much of the nuance of human relating.

[01:26:42] Dean: Mm. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for the conversation.

It's really fun to talk to someone who's doing what you're doing. It's like- Yeah ... yeah, I really enjoyed it.

[01:26:50] Dr. Nicole: Same. Same. Well, Dean, as we're coming towards the end of our time, I'm gonna take another deep breath with you.

And I'll check in and see if there's anything else that you wanna share with the listeners. Otherwise, I have a closing question for you.

[01:27:07] Dean: Well, I would be in so much trouble with my collaborators if I didn't say that I really hope people will try out our podcast, Love and Fucked Up World: The Podcast.

[01:27:15] Dr. Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. I'll have it linked in the show notes below so it'll be easy for listeners. You can just go straight into there and check it out right there. All right, Dean. Well, the question that I ask everyone on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal? I

[01:27:36] Dean: love this question Shame.

I think most people don't know how much shame they're experiencing. I think it's motivating almost everything. And people are like, "I don't have shame." And I wish people knew that everyone is experiencing a lot of shame, and that- Yeah ... we could work with it. Like, name it. Oh, sh- shame is telling me this about what other people think about me, this about what's not okay with me, you know?

I think that so much of the work is, is shame work.

[01:28:08] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:28:08] Dean: And then having grief about the conditions that produced that much shame in all of us.

[01:28:13] Dr. Nicole: Right. Absolutely. It gets in the way of our ability to connect. And it's been such a joy to start bringing some of the early guests on the show back to the podcast and hear how they answer that question, right?

So you've answered that question in the past.

[01:28:30] Dean: I wonder what I said last time. I have no idea.

[01:28:33] Dr. Nicole: You wanna know what you said? Yeah. 'Cause I did this time. Yeah. I did. The last people I hadn't checked, but I was like, "Okay, Ferdia, I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna start doing this for all the people." Um, so last time when I asked you this question, you said one word, and it was shame.

So

[01:28:49] Dean: I don't change at all. Well, I am a total shame ... person. That is so funny. Wow. That's so funny 'cause it feels like a complete question to me. Yeah. Um, all right. Five years later, shame. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Good to know.

[01:29:03] Dr. Nicole: Hmm. Yeah. W- that connection to the word shame for you, do you wanna speak to that? I mean, that's clearly a, a defining thread. I

[01:29:09] Dean: mean, I've just done so much work on this, and it's been so helpful to me. Um, yeah, it's just like- Most of my con- constricted reactions are coming from a fundamental idea that I...

A- and also a lot of control stuff, uh, towards myself- Yeah ... or others or outcomes of groups, um, or outcomes of relationships. It's, it's based in some idea that I am responsible for, um, everything.

[01:29:38] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:29:38] Dean: And that I've... Anything that's going wrong was me. Mm. And it, it can relate to also being an internalizer.

Like, if we have a conflict- Yeah ... I'm like, "Oh, what, what can I... I, I'll do it all. I'll fix it all on my own. It's all my fault."

[01:29:51] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:29:51] Dean: And, um, that's not a great habit because there's a lot of people out there who are externalizers, and it's really hard when you're in a relationship with one person taking all the blame- Yeah

and the other one also giving it. Um- Oh ... that can be a hard one. Um-

[01:30:03] Dr. Nicole: Yes, it is.

[01:30:04] Dean: Yeah, or that, or being in a dysfunctional situation and thinking I can just fix it all myself.

[01:30:08] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:30:09] Dean: Or thinking that if anything... Yeah, taking people's ungrounded criticism in too deeply, taking responsibility for whole groups' difficulties i- instead of, uh, realizing the right-sized amount that any one person can be part of anything.

These are all patterns that I've worked with for years. These things have really s- prompted overwork, you know? Yeah. Um, yeah. Mm. Or, um, prompted, yeah, just like other... But I just think they're really common.

[01:30:37] Dr. Nicole: Mm,

[01:30:38] Dean: mm-hmm. It's like, it's like I spend so much time talking in groups about the emotional processes happening in our organizing and in people's relationships, and it's like shame is behind so much of it, and a lot of people haven't even identified that they have shame.

[01:30:49] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:30:49] Dean: It sounds so bad or something. It's like, oh, I'm not ashamed of myse- like, we're, we live in a culture where you're supposed to pretend you, like, love yourself and have great self-esteem.

[01:30:57] Dr. Nicole: Right. I

[01:30:57] Dean: don't even know what that means to most people. I feel like it's so fake. Yeah. And, and it doesn't ha- feel like anything.

And so it feels like you're, if you were to admit that you had shame, it would be that you were, like, really bad and dysfunctional. It's like the shame about shame. Yeah.

[01:31:11] Dr. Nicole: You know? Mm-hmm.

[01:31:11] Dean: Um, and people do a lot of, like, uh, overriding, I think, and pretending forms of grand- grandiosity can actually be a reaction to shame.

Yeah, yeah. Like, I'm gonna pretend I know everything about politics. Exactly. Like, everyone else is not smart enough.

[01:31:25] Dr. Nicole: Exactly.

[01:31:26] Dean: When actually I'm terrified I'm gonna be exposed as not knowing something. You know, it just, it just produces a lot of aggressive behavior. It produces a lot of, um, s- self-blame. It d- disconnection, like you said.

Mm-hmm. And for me it's just been a, a real key, like being able to see when that's what's happening, um- Mm-hmm ... has often led me, like, to have a new, a new approach or a new way to think or feel or, you know.

[01:31:51] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, and I'm sure community spaces where that part of yourself can come forward and you're not kicked out of the group to name it-

[01:31:58] Dean: Yeah.

[01:31:59] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:31:59] Dean: And obviously being a trans person and a queer person and, like, a sexual person, like, it's vital to, you know, look into the ways we might feel like we shouldn't be ourselves or exist. And, like, it's so delightful to clear some of that up. I mean, it's like, what a amazing source of aliveness. I'm so much happier at 48 than- Mm

I was at 28, you know? Like...

[01:32:27] Dr. Nicole: So what would you say to your 28-year-old self, then, with the wisdom that you have, where you're at right now, if you could speak to him, I mean, your younger self?

[01:32:34] Dean: I mean, I just wrote this entire book for them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, you know, they'd be like, "Read the book." I'm like, "Here's everything you have to figure," you know?

But I don't, I, I also- Oh my God ... I also don't know, you know, I, I, it's hard to tell what people- Yeah ... can know when they're not ready to know it. Oh, right. Exactly. I, I hope, I, you know, I also have my own questions, like, do, do, does reading self-help books help at all? You know, I've done it obsessively since I was n- you know, a teenager.

[01:32:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:32:55] Dean: Because ultimately some stuff is, you know, it's a, it's embodied learning. Maybe it helps you look out for things to try or models, but, um, but also some stuff you just have to experience- Yeah ... and learn through.

[01:33:12] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:33:14] Dean: I would probably tell this person, "It's not as bad as you think. You're not as bad as you think."

[01:33:19] Dr. Nicole: That's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Letting that one really truly, like, sink into your body. I can al- I can feel it in mine of just like, oof.

[01:33:30] Dean: Yeah, this is the whole thing. I think our culture is like, "You're fantastic, you're wonderful." These thi- are not things that a, that a ashamed being inside or small parts can hear.

You can hear like, "You're not the best, you're not the worst." That's like one of my favorite phrases from the 12 step programs. Mm. Or like, you know, "This is how it is now." I use that phrase a lot. It's an equanimity phrase in Buddhism. It's like, this is how it is. Yeah. It's, this is... It's like this right now.

[01:33:54] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:33:55] Dean: It's not like in, not trying to force it to be something it's not, not trying to repress the feeling. This is how it is now.

[01:34:01] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:34:01] Dean: It's, you know, or you're acceptable. Not like you're fantastic.

[01:34:06] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. You

[01:34:06] Dean: know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 'Cause

[01:34:07] Dr. Nicole: then the

[01:34:07] Dean: system just fights back against those kind of statements.

[01:34:10] Dr. Nicole: Right.

Defenses. Yeah. Yeah,

[01:34:12] Dean: doubles down, you know?

[01:34:13] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. Exactly. Ah, Dean, well it was such a joy to have you on the show today again, and I really hope you can feel how the vulnerability of your shares, whether it's from your early childhood dynamics, all the wisdom that you have and community, I hope you can feel how all of that will help us dismantle the shame, right?

Because when we hear other people who have gone through it, who struggle to hear some of those words of validation, and it's easier to go into the acceptance of you're not that good, you're not that bad either, right? Like, hearing you say that with your voice, it's what allows all of us to know, wow, I'm not the only person who has struggled with the things that Dean has struggled with, or that Nicole has struggled with.

And it provides that connection that I think really strips away the shame. Shame comes so much from that feeling that we're the only one who ever has this weird, strange human experience that no one else experiences, right? And so the more that you can bring yourself into these conversations and be authentic, be vulnerable about all the mess, the mistakes, the ways that you're learning in your partnerships, all that, like that is how we're gonna really strip away some of that shame so we can come together to end these systems, and at least put one serious dent in them during our lifetime.

So I really hope you can like feel the power of the work that you're doing.

[01:35:30] Dean: Thank you. May, may everything we've done together in this, um, meeting be of service to our community's liberation.

[01:35:38] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Absolutely. May it be so.

Well, Dean, where can people find your book? What's the best place to go find your book and all of your resources?

[01:35:48] Dean: We're actually selling it right now on my website to try to raise money for the podcast, deanspade.net. Great. And, um, there's a lot of other resources there. And the podcast is just wherever podcasts are.

And yeah, um, you know, we put all that stuff on social media, trying to make it easy to find.

[01:36:05] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Great. Well, dear listener, I'll have all of those links in the show notes below, so you can go straight to there and find all of Dean's content. And again, thank you Dean, for coming on the show today. Dear listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Modern Anarchy.

Thank you for sharing this episode with your friends, with your lovers, with your community. Truly, it means so much to me, and I am so grateful that you are here. If you are wanting to release jealousy in your non-monogamous dynamics and step into compersion and pleasure-filled connection you can read my book, The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide for free on my website.

There you will also find so many other free resources, including worksheets on how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non-monogamous dynamics and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure-filled sex and relationships.

So head on over to modernanarchypodcast.com to find all of those free resources and I look forward to seeing you next week.