270. The Wild Ride of Following Your Pleasure - Karen Yates

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Karen join us for a conversation about healing in relationships. Together we talk about actually feeling your trauma, ouch, that one hurts sometimes, the language of pleasure, and becoming present with yourself. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. My heart is so delighted and filled with gratitude that you are here, that you are learning and exploring your pleasure, and that you're tuning in to another episode of Modern Anarchy.

I'm Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, author of The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and the first research study on relationship anarchy, and founder of the Pleasure Practice, where I teach students from around the world how to craft pleasurable sex lives and non-monogamous relationships.

Dear listener. Okay, we had Empress Wu, we had Dean Spade. We are doing round twos, dear listener. I'm bringing back some of your favorite episodes and guests on the show. And Karen, man, she goes way back. She was one of the earliest episodes of Modern Anarchy. If you go back to that time, my voice was so soft.

I was just like, "Hi, I'm Nicole." I had not yet stepped into radical empowerment, and I still am stepping deeper each day. We're coming harder. The orgasms are deeper. Wow. Wow. Wow. Thank you for coming along with this ride as we explore what it means to liberate our pleasure together in this space. And I've also been on Karen's podcast, Wild + Sublime.

We had a really powerful episode on relationship anarchy, and it was also the most played episode of last year, 2025. So I'll have all of that linked in the show notes below so you can go nerd out, hear more of Karen's work, hear my episode on Karen's show. And I'm just really grateful that Karen speaks to what it's like to start exploring her inner world and more non-monogamous relationships later in life.

You know? Some clients I've worked with have felt like, "Oh, it's just too late for me. It's too late to expand into these paradigms." But Karen is such a beautiful example that it's never too late. Okay? There are people whatever age you are at who are doing this work, who are exploring, who are challenging the status quo, who are writing new ways of relating and stepping into sexuality and pleasure.

And so dear listener, I just want to extend that invite to you, that wherever you are at, regardless of your age, whatever has happened in your past, change is possible and pleasure is possible. And I am so, so grateful that you are here All right, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and free resources at modernanarchypodcast.com.

That is also where you're gonna learn so much more about my upcoming group, the Pleasure Liberation Non-Monogamy Program. Y'all, this is my 16-week program designed for you to craft the most pleasurable non-monogamous relationships you can imagine. You're gonna step into a space, a classroom with students from around the world who are really serious about getting into the psychological frameworks, skills that are necessary to create pleasurable non-monogamous relationships.

There are literal skills that I have seen in my clinical work working with non-monogamous folks for years at this point. There were repeated things that just kept coming together, and so I put it all into this 16-week course, and I am so excited to see you there, dear listener. All of the information, how to join the program, join me and students from around the world, it's all linked in the show notes below, and I am so excited to see you there at the end of August.

And I also wanna say the biggest thank you to all my Patreon supporters. Thank you for making this show free and exactly what it's needed to be for the last five years. Thank you for supporting me and this movement and this educational work. I am so, so grateful for you. And with that, dear listener, please know that I am sending you all my love, and let's tune in to today's episode

Dear listener, there's a space already waiting for you where you are invited to let go of every old script about sex and relationships and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure, empowerment, and deep alignment. I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together, we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real transformation possible. And I'll be right there with you, guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure and visit modernanarchypodcast.com/pleasurepractice to apply.

The first question that I love to ask every guest on the show is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:06:05] Karen: Oh, my goodness gracious. Goodness gracious. How would I introduce myself?

[00:06:11] Dr. Nicole: I know.

[00:06:12] Karen: Um, I would say I am Karen Yates, and I I'm in a process of becoming

[00:06:24] Dr. Nicole: Mm. You know, that's usually what I say when people ask who I am too.

I'm like, "I'm becoming. I am becoming." Yeah.

[00:06:34] Karen: Um, and, and for the, for the, um, the more, I don't know, labeling side of things, I would say that I am a somatic sex educator who is interested in helping people free themselves from limiting beliefs around sexuality-

[00:07:00] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:07:00] Karen: in order to become more free. And I also work as an energy worker, and I believe the two are very congruent.

They're... It's this kind of the same thing- Mm-hmm ... the work I do-

[00:07:15] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:07:15] Karen: which is really help re-pattern people so that they can live more in flow.

[00:07:24] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:07:25] Karen: The, the big... I'm not gonna say aha-

[00:07:30] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:07:31] Karen: but one of the bigger things that I'm coming into awareness in the past year... And by the way, my voice is a little more gravelly because I have a cold.

[00:07:39] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:07:40] Karen: Um, right now I'm getting over it. Yeah. But what I realize is when I came into this work a number of years ago, so I really started delving into sexuality, I would say maybe eight or nine years ago. I really thought that everybody was... Well, I won't, I didn't think everyone is, was as sexual as me or as highly sexual, you know?

I, I knew I had a strong libido, and I knew that I enjoyed sex.

[00:08:07] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:08:08] Karen: Mm-hmm. But it was really more like if people aren't in that zone, or if they kind of put up their hands, they're like, "No, no, no," I kinda didn't accept it deep inside. I'm like, "Really? Really? Come on. Let's, let's work with each other, you know?

Let's... I'm sure like..." A- and now I'm like, "No. Absolutely not." People are unique. They may not have any interest whatsoever. Um, I mean, obviously, of course, I've learned much more about asexuality. But even beyond that, it's like some people explore, and then they're sort of done, and they're fine with it, you know?

Mm-hmm. And so I'm really enjoying being with people and getting to know people, and I'm not really speaking of erotic relationships, just new people and kind of seeing where they're at-

[00:09:07] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:09:08] Karen: with their eros.

[00:09:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:11] Karen: And where does it go?

[00:09:12] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:13] Karen: Because it might go into creation of some sort.

[00:09:16] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:09:18] Karen: And so I kind of got off on a tangent there, but that's okay.

[00:09:22] Dr. Nicole: Oh, but it's a beautiful tangent. And what a great starting point- ... to really drop us into. I'm so passionate about talking about eroticism, 'cause it's much bigger than sex, right? It's the ability to feel the, you know, clothes on my skin, the wind when it caresses my skin, right? Those moments of really tapping into your sensual pleasure, and that is something that we can all tap into, and so I really like starting the conversation from there.

And so I'm curious for you, holding space for your journey, what has your transformation looked like with eroticism? You know, you started this work eight years ago. What have you noticed in that time?

[00:10:07] Karen: Probably the biggest shift for me is noticing myself more.

[00:10:11] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:10:12] Karen: Becoming aware of myself more. Instead of this sort of should, well, you should be liking this, or you should want to do this act X amount of times a day, or X amount of times- Yeah

a week, or-

[00:10:26] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:10:27] Karen: and it's okay if you don't want to right now. And so noticing and coming into acceptance of myself, that has been a very big shift.

[00:10:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:10:40] Karen: And also really allowing the eroticism of life, to s- begin noticing it in everything.

[00:10:51] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:10:52] Karen: As you were saying, the sensual aspects of being in a body- Yeah

which is so important.

[00:10:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:59] Karen: Because I don't t- really think about the body- body-mind connection. It's bodymind, one word. Yeah, yeah.

[00:11:07] Dr. Nicole: Like,

[00:11:07] Karen: it's, it's the same thing. Mm-hmm. The body is mind.

[00:11:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:11] Karen: And so we were talking about the length of this conversation today, and I said I was meeting a friend afterwards.

Mm. Well, we're gonna make Christmas cookies. Mm. And I'm like, that is... the idea is so pleasurable to me, to be with someone I really love and in a kitchen, making cookies.

[00:11:31] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:11:33] Karen: That's its own type of deep fulfillment. I think deep fulfillment, whether it's, mm, whether it's m- more of a mundane thing of, like, sitting and having a cup of tea or-

[00:11:49] Dr. Nicole: Mm

[00:11:50] Karen: you know, being in a really awesome orgy because I really wanna be there, say Yeah ... they're, they're, they're pretty similar.

[00:11:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:59] Karen: They're just kind of gradations, you know-

[00:12:02] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:12:02] Karen: of experience. So that's what's changed the most, and what's changed is me, right? I'm, I'm the change. Which can lead us into a conversation about how have I changed.

[00:12:19] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[00:12:20] Karen: You know? Uh, which

[00:12:22] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, that's a juicy one. Mm-hmm. Share the secrets. How did you do it?

Mm-hmm.

[00:12:30] Karen: Well, you know, um- When I began the work just in sexuality and being more sexual, I was in a long-term partnership, and then when I left it, I felt really called to experiment- Mm ... and follow pleasure.

[00:12:45] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. What a commitment. It is- What a wild ride.

[00:12:49] Karen: It is a wild ride. Yeah. It is a wild ride. And I remember one day, I'm gonna tell a story.

I, I was going to my f- I was en route to my first cuddle party.

[00:12:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm. That's cool. Now,

[00:12:58] Karen: by this point I had done a lot. Mm. I had done a lot of things, and I knew what cuddle parties were about, so I'm like, "Yeah, okay, I'm gonna go to a cuddle party today." And just outside the event, it was in someone's home-

[00:13:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm

[00:13:11] Karen: my key got, uh, as I was locking my car up, I have a analog car, I don't have a, a- Cool ... electric lock.

[00:13:19] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah,

[00:13:20] Karen: yeah. My key got stuck in the lock.

[00:13:23] Dr. Nicole: No.

[00:13:24] Karen: And I had to call a locksmith to take the key out, to redo the whole thing. He gave me a whole new key. And I sat there, I'm like, "What is... What's going on here?"

I'm like, "Yeah, you're really forcing it. You're like, 'Yes- Mm ... I am going to a cuddle party now. I... It's, I haven't experienced this yet. I am going to a cuddle party.'"

[00:13:41] Dr. Nicole: Yes. It's happening. Universe cannot stop me.

[00:13:47] Karen: I've been there. And I'm like, you, you, you kind of really weren't listening to yourself. Mm. You kinda, you were doing this as an obligatory checkbox, like, "I will...

I h- will then have achieved cuddle party-ness- Mm ... by going."

[00:13:59] Dr. Nicole: Check.

[00:14:00] Karen: Right? And-

[00:14:01] Dr. Nicole: A+ E-

[00:14:01] Karen: exactly. And I was like, "Oh, my God." And I, you know what's so funny, is I haven't gone to one since. Mm. I never made it in. Good

[00:14:07] Dr. Nicole: thing.

[00:14:09] Karen: I left 'cause, like, literally this whole thing took an hour, you know? Mm-hmm. And I'm like, "Okay." So I, I just, I began not questioning, but I began kind of interrogating a little bit the various things I was doing.

Like, do you really wanna be doing that? Mm. You've done it a number of times, that particular thing.

[00:14:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:34] Karen: There's something in you that's feeling a little tired or it's like mm.

[00:14:38] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Mm-hmm.

[00:14:39] Karen: And, and so that led, that led to, first, I think, putting a little bit of space between myself, the noticing events or whatever were happening, and that was pretty critical.

And then as COVID began, and into COVID, I started doing some trauma work.

[00:15:01] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:15:02] Karen: It was suggested to me by my spiritual mentor that I should do EMDR. Mm-hmm.

[00:15:07] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:08] Karen: And I- I was like, "Well, I, I've, I've worked on my trauma," and I listed off all of these, like, events in my life that were traumatic. You know? Mm. Like, when my mother did this, and when my dad...

Mm. And na, na, na, na. Mm-hmm. And he said, "The mere fact that you can just kind of list it all out like a shopping list, like no big deal, proves to me that you are still traumatized." Mm. And I was like, "What?" You know? Yeah. And, and it's funny because now when I tell people some of the traumatic events in my life, I'm there with it.

I've, I've metabolized it.

[00:15:50] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:15:50] Karen: I've metabolized them. Yeah. But I'm like, yeah, this happened to me, and it's not some shopping list. It's like, yeah, this happened to me, and, and then that, and so, you know.

[00:16:05] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:16:05] Karen: I'm, like, with it. I'm, I'm kind of feeling the resonances, you know?

[00:16:09] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:16:10] Karen: So in doing that work, because I did several rounds of it over a year, some of it, I had some instantaneous relief.

First, around my workaholism.

[00:16:22] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:16:24] Karen: Around my working, like, to prove self. Yeah. To prove I could exist in the world.

[00:16:29] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:16:30] Karen: And then the work got, just kept getting deeper as I realized, oh, there's more here. There's, like, a lot more here.

[00:16:37] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:16:39] Karen: And this type of work, and for folks who don't know or maybe are just kind of grabbing episodes here and there, I'm sure you've gone over EMDR before, but it's basically eye movement desensitization.

EMDR. Repro- reprogramming. Mm-hmm.

[00:17:00] Dr. Nicole: Reprocessing.

[00:17:00] Karen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And by moving your eyes or tapping on the body bilaterally, you're, you're, you are causing the brain to move from one lobe to the other lobe, because trauma tends to loop and stick in the right side of the brain, and it needs to get processed in the left side of the brain.

Like a file. A file, it gets filed correctly instead of just hanging like a loop, a looping. And so that work was influential, but there was the next piece, which is not really talked about as much. Mm. Which is you need to see How this has really fucked up your life. Like, you can process it, but you have behaviors in place that aren't just gonna go poof, goodbye.

I mean, I found that there was a, suddenly a massive space between me and the impulse to work compulsively.

[00:18:02] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:02] Karen: Which was remarkable. Yeah. And I was able to sort of take hold of it very quickly.

[00:18:07] Dr. Nicole: Good, yeah.

[00:18:07] Karen: But there were other aspects that, you know how I treated people, judgment toward others, judgment towards self, that were really pernicious.

[00:18:21] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:18:22] Karen: And that, that's an ongoing process. That's ongoing. That's not like one and done.

[00:18:29] Dr. Nicole: No. That's a lifelong humbling journey, isn't it? Becoming. We're becoming.

[00:18:35] Karen: We're becoming.

[00:18:36] Dr. Nicole: Always becoming.

[00:18:37] Karen: I'm Karen Yates and I'm becoming.

[00:18:38] Dr. Nicole: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

[00:18:42] Karen: But, you know, um, what the remarkable part, 'cause I gotta talk about what's remarkable-

[00:18:49] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm ...

[00:18:51] Karen: is the brain, my mind, my self, the self has simply dropped into me.

[00:18:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:18:59] Karen: Like I'm, I'm... I feel weighty. Yeah. And I don't mean that in a bad way. I mean like I feel solid and in place wherever I am. I'm solid and in place.

[00:19:14] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:19:15] Karen: And there's very little chatter anymore. There's very little chatter. There's baseline contentment.

[00:19:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:19:27] Karen: That's extraordinary-

[00:19:30] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:19:31] Karen: for me, having lived many decades on the planet, and even with all of the talk therapy, there's still vortex days where I just get stuck in a vortex. Of course. And so what that has allowed me to do is access a different kind of pleasure.

[00:19:48] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah.

[00:19:50] Karen: You know?

[00:19:52] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I mean, I hear presence- Mm-hmm

in that fully, right? The weightiness of being fully there. And often I feel like what I notice for folks in that space is the ability to really sense into their embodied experience, as well as the ability to author your own life, rather than just coming from a space of reacting, reacting, reacting. Yeah.

That presence gives you the moment to notice the stimulus, whatever it is, pause, and then have the insight and awareness to say, "Who is it that I want to become? Great. I wanna become the Karen Yates that does this, this, and that, and now I'm gonna do it," rather than the old patterns that are often habitual, almost like a knee-jerk reaction from our pain points.

[00:20:39] Karen: Yeah. You know, it's, it's... I remember maybe like a month ago, I had been mad at someone-

[00:20:44] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:20:45] Karen: in the way that I'd been mad at this person for a while.

[00:20:49] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:20:50] Karen: And I c- I was walking across my living room and I suddenly stopped, and I s- became very aware that I had been mad for a while.

[00:20:59] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Not

[00:20:59] Karen: just like a couple days.

Like this had been going on. And I stopped and I'm like, "Do you- Like this feeling?

[00:21:08] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:21:09] Karen: Do you like being mad? No, it sucks to be kind of a l- you know, this quiet rage for a long period of time. It's not pleasant. It's kind of grinding. It grinds you, grinds at you.

[00:21:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:25] Karen: Do I... W- what do you e- Do you... And I was like, "Okay."

And like, I would say maybe a week or two later, I had a conversation with this person, and I started again going into this place of personalizing. Like, they do, they do what they do. They're, they're doing it to me.

[00:21:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Eh. Eh. Mm. Mm.

[00:21:48] Karen: They're doing it to me.

[00:21:50] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:50] Karen: And then I stopped and I'm like, "Stop." This is bigger than you.

This is their approach to living.

[00:21:58] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:21:58] Karen: It has nothing to do with you. You got stuck in the crosshairs for a moment in this conversation, but it kinda has nothing to do with you. And that's when the freedom came. Mm-hmm. It was like, "Oh, got it." And then I just felt everything kind of sluice off of me. Mm. Just, just go.

[00:22:20] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:22] Karen: That's pleasure.

[00:22:23] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Yeah, yeah, to not take it so personally in those moments.

[00:22:28] Karen: Yeah, when you feel that weighty emotional pattern, uh, in the body release, it's a brilliant moment, you know?

[00:22:37] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, because so often we're... and especially people who have been socialized as women and femmes go into that narrative of, "Something's wrong with me.

How do I contort myself into a better shape so that I can show up with this person?" Forgetting how, you know, the existentialists always talk about how deeply isolated we are in our experience. The reality is that person's up in their own head, and they're becoming in their own ways as much as we are, right?

And so how do we find that balance between, right, this is a co-created dynamic. I'm bringing a part, and they're bringing a part, and then also some of what I'm feeling, experiencing might not be from me. It might be from them. A- and as a therapist, that's constantly what my, my job re- literally is to sit down and be like, "All right, this client is making me feel really small.

They're making me feel like I have no knowledge to give them." How does that serve them, right? Because it's a protection mechanism if they're, you know, like, "Why are you here if that's the case?" You know what I mean? There's something going on there, or vice versa. And, and, like, truly what I was trained in is, like, how do you examine that constantly of what part is mine, what part is theirs, and then separate it?

And I'll tell you in my personal life though, it's a nightmare. That's so hard to do. Like, like, you know, like, you're sitting there in the work going like, "Hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm." And then in my own personal relationships, which are way more dynamic, I'm like, "Oh, shit, is that me? I don't... Damn, I don't know. I don't know."

But for so many of us, the, the, the narrative, it's like it's easier to control if it's something that I'm doing wrong, right? Then I can just hyperanalyze myself. Here's how I'm broken. Here's how this. Here's how all of that, right? And, and often, uh, we need to step into a more balanced space of understanding that this person might just be bringing that, and that's their world, and that's what it is, and that's what it brings out in you, and it's not necessarily a reflection of yourself.

[00:24:29] Karen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I, I do see everything as my perception, you know? Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah, yeah. And even if I'm doing some fandango with someone-

[00:24:37] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:24:38] Karen: it's like sometimes I think, "With someone else in this situation, it'd be cool breeze. It would be like whatever." They wouldn't be triggered because it's just my particular, you know, the crenulations in myself- Mm-hmm

get li- you know, something gets-

[00:24:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:24:54] Karen: stuck in there- Yeah ... and activates me. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it, it... But even that, uh, to your point, I... Part of the work for me is always staying in my choice point. You have choices. What's- whatever's happening, you have choices. You don't have to endure. You know, there's a lot of talk in pleasure circles about the- Mm-mm

act of enduring. You know, we put ourselves in an... We endure sitting in a chair that's not comfortable. I mean, chairs are kind of bullshit anyway to begin with- Yeah ... as functional objects. Um, not really good for the body.

[00:25:35] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Mm-hmm.

[00:25:39] Karen: But, um- Yeah. We don't have to endure in relationships. We can, we can ... You know, curiosity is a nice n- way to kind of break these moments that have, like, just been stuck.

[00:25:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:25:56] Karen: Like, "Oh, what did you... When you said that..." It's, it's ... You have to be in a neutral place, though. You can't be like, "When

[00:26:02] Dr. Nicole: you said that-" "... what,

[00:26:05] Karen: what did you mean?" I know. Like, tru- truly curious. I

[00:26:09] Dr. Nicole: know. Like, "

[00:26:10] Karen: When you said that a- about me, what is, what did you, like, what, what did you mean?"

[00:26:17] Dr. Nicole: Right. And it's sad that the people that are closest to us often get our most authentic, raw, unfiltered parts, which usually don't, is not as curious.

You know what I mean? It's just like, "Ah." Um, but right, when we are curious, which is where we should be, and it's a good invitation when we get like that with our partners, where we lose that sense of curiosity and our voice and tone raises and now we're making assumptions, all of that, like, can we come back to the body, as you said first, right?

Because I think it's hard. We, you know, especially the field of psychology is so in the cognitive, cognitive, cognitive. Mm. In those moments, it's way better to come back to the body because when we're activated, we're in a different part of the brain, quite literally. We're in that amygdala, that fight, you know, response, freeze, fawn, uh, flight, any of that.

We're overstimulated, and so now we're gonna react from that space. Whereas if we can take a couple of deep breaths, we come back to our prefrontal cortex, and in our prefrontal cortex, that's where we make our executive decisions. Mm. That's where we make wise, smart decisions, right? And so you alluded to trauma, right?

When we have these experiences that we have not processed or fully felt, you know, you alluded to maybe feeling numb and being able to give, "Here's the shopping list. I'm fine," right? But had you felt all of those things, right, and truly integrated that. So if you haven't done that work, then when people hit into something that's related to that, maybe it's abandonment, maybe it's jealousy, maybe it's a moment of enduring where you really don't want to, the trauma immediately brings you to that part of the brain, and you're in that more, like, ancient, reptile-like form of the brain.

You're not in your prefrontal cortex, which developed much later, right, in terms of holding critical thinking. And so I'm always trying to bring people back to their bodies in that way because we can go into the cognitive for hours and hours and hours and hours, but it's not gonna get you anywhere if you just keep spiraling.

You need to come back.

[00:28:17] Karen: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

[00:28:22] Dr. Nicole: And then that's where you feel more pleasure 'cause you're not just in the cognitive. I mean, I love a juicy fantasy narrative. I'm all here for a fantasy narrative, right? But you have to be in your body with it to actually feel it.

[00:28:35] Karen: Yeah.

[00:28:35] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:36] Karen: Yeah.

[00:28:38] Dr. Nicole: Was there a period of time that you were enduring in your erotic spaces? Does that come up from your own lived experience or the communities that you've been in?

[00:28:47] Karen: Yeah, I think about, like, a long-term relationship that I had been in, um, at one point in my life, and there was just such a built-in pattern.

[00:28:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:28:58] Karen: You know? It was like this is the way it is. This is the way it goes, um, beginning, middle, end. Not a lot of general cur- erotic curiosity. And I remember there was, there were a couple points when I had suggested, you know, a book or, "Oh, hey, I saw this thing," and that was the actually very great moments of like, "Oh, new."

Yeah. "The new."

[00:29:30] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah,

[00:29:31] Karen: yeah. You know? Um, and at that point, though, I was still pretty in my trauma patterns.

[00:29:41] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:29:42] Karen: And it's, it's, was around, um, feeling trapped. You know, I was living in a place where I felt really trapped.

[00:29:51] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:29:52] Karen: I mean, I wasn't really trapped, but- Yeah ... psychologically I felt trapped.

[00:29:56] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:29:56] Karen: And when you feel trapped, um, you do things a certain way.

You know, certain behaviors will come up and, um, you know, I just was thinking of like lab m- mice and rats when they're stuck in these horrible experiments, and they kinda go crazy.

[00:30:16] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:30:17] Karen: You know? They, they, they become very neurotic.

[00:30:20] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:30:21] Karen: And because I did not see, again, my own agency and my own power- I didn't feel myself- Mm

in the relationship. I was always in reaction-

[00:30:31] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:30:32] Karen: to the other.

[00:30:33] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:30:34] Karen: I wasn't myself-

[00:30:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:30:37] Karen: with myself. I wasn't weighted.

[00:30:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:30:40] Karen: So I was like, um... oh, this is a, this is a figure from, like, the 1970s. There was a, um... I think it was Bozo the Clown, Chicago clown- ... show.

[00:30:52] Dr. Nicole: Cool.

[00:30:53] Karen: And there was

[00:30:55] Dr. Nicole: I'm ready for this story. Let's go.

[00:30:59] Karen: And they, they had a Bozo, this g- uh, really famous clown that had- Yeah ... this TV show for kids at noon. Yeah. And there was a blow-up clown you could buy.

[00:31:09] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:31:09] Karen: And it had a curved bottom that was weighted with sand, and you could punch it, and then it would go all the way back, but it would come back. Mm-hmm. And then you could just punch it, da-da.

And I always felt... I didn't feel like a punching bag. I know- Mm ... that's not the metaphor I'm attempting to craft. Mm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. But it felt like I was always in movement based on what was going on, instead of just, like, I'm solid and I'm unmovable in a good way.

[00:31:39] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:31:40] Karen: You know? I'm still flexible, but I'm, like, with myself.

[00:31:43] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:43] Karen: I never felt those things. I mean, that took a really, really, really long time to get to. And many, many people are in reactive states-

[00:31:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:31:53] Karen: every moment, every day of their lives.

[00:31:55] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:56] Karen: It's not something, uh, new to me. We live in a reactive world. It's like, wow, we're in such a reactive place.

[00:32:05] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

[00:32:07] Karen: And we're always attempting to find ways to not be with ourselves, and it's worse than ever. I don't wanna go into a hell in the, hell in the handbasket- Place, but-

[00:32:19] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:32:21] Karen: you know, the phones and the blah blah and the blah blah and the blah

[00:32:24] Dr. Nicole: blah. Right, and it makes sense. I mean, my mantra is cry hard, come hard.

And in a world where we see so many atrocities daily on our devices, our phones, our screens, all of that, and the majority of us see that and then are expected to show up for work at, you know, hours later and just keep going as if that's normal, as if that's okay to see these sorts of things, there's a level of numbing that we all have to have to our, you know, humanness.

You know, talk about traumas, right, integrating traumas. When you see the global trauma and you're like, "Wait, gotta go back to work and sell this product so that the big folks can keep do- Oh, God. All right. Well, let's take a deep breath. Let's just keep going." You know, like, that is not natural. That is not natural for us to be so disconnected when we see human suffering, animal suffering, climate suffering, the earth, right?

So there's a certain level of numbing that we're all having to go through right now to be able to survive that, right? And so it's deeply gonna impact our ability to cry and come because we're having to really disconnect from authentic responses to things.

[00:33:41] Karen: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely

[00:33:46] Dr. Nicole: And- I mean- Yeah, go

[00:33:48] Karen: ahead

well, I was just thinking about Facebook. Mm. And I, my thing about Facebook is like, oh, I couldn't possibly go off of Facebook because a lot of times I'll advertise my shows on Facebook. Or, you know, it's, there's, there's a very real business reason why- Yeah ... I'm on Facebook.

[00:34:04] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:34:05] Karen: And I use this as just, like, this kind of de facto excuse, and I, the other day, yesterday as a matter of fact, a good friend of mine said, "Yeah, um, I di- decon- I disconnected from Facebook."

[00:34:15] Dr. Nicole: Mm. "

[00:34:16] Karen: So if you try to tag me or something, I'm not gonna be there."

[00:34:18] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:34:19] Karen: And I was like... And it totally made sense why she did it, and completely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What, what's going on in her life, that makes sense. And I'm like, huh. And I was just thinking, I'm like, "Well, you don't have to go on Facebook. You just, I mean, you don't have to de- disconnect.

You don't go on." Like- Mm ... do what you wanna do in terms of business stuff, but then that's all you have to do. Get

[00:34:40] Dr. Nicole: off. Yeah.

[00:34:42] Karen: And I'm, I'm, like, less and less, it's, it ensorcelles me less and less. What I'm tending to get more obsessive about is the news stories of the world-

[00:34:51] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:34:51] Karen: on the media platforms. That's, that's where I go.

[00:34:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:34:55] Karen: I go less to social media except to look at husky reels.

[00:34:59] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:34:59] Karen: Funny, funny husky reels.

[00:35:01] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Like a

[00:35:01] Karen: husky. I'm taking the cats.

[00:35:03] Dr. Nicole: And raccoons. Yes. Specifically. They're so fluffy. So- They got, like, a lot of chunk, chunky fluff. It's my dopamine source, folks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And speaking of your show, which you haven't mentioned yet, amazing show, by the way.

I, um, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. Amazing show. I, um, when I connect with different therapist, one of my supervisors, I was telling her, like, "Oh, like, these are the things I'm passionate about. These are the things." She's like, "Have you heard of Karen Yates and Wild and Sublime?" I was like, "You know, doctor, I have.

Yes. Yes. Yes, I have." Oh my God, who was this? Um- This is amazing ... Dr. Nikki Dworkin. She's- Oh ... one of my supervisors. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she's- Oh, man. Nikki Yeah, she's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She, um, she's my first, like, supervisor who's much more kink, poly aware than I've... I've always had, like, monogamous supervisors in this work.

I, and your face, I know. I-

[00:36:01] Karen: Wish you could see my face. I'm like, "What?"

[00:36:04] Dr. Nicole: Well, I was, I'm in the academy. You know what I mean? Like it's- You, you, you know what? Yeah. You only have limited options when you're a student. It's- And now that I'm not a student- ... really straight. It's a really straight place ... tell me, but straight up.

Straight up. Straight up. There was no opportunity for anything and what was limited. Now that I'm graduated and I get to choose who I want help from, yeah, it's beautiful to have someone who's way more aligned, and is like, "Yeah, have you heard of Karen Yates?" Or like, you know, um, all these other experiences, but, like, your work is rippling through the community in that way.

[00:36:37] Karen: Oh, thank you. You know, people do say to me, um- therapists, 'cause a lot of therapists go to the show.

[00:36:43] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:36:44] Karen: And they say, "Yeah, you know, my clients, they'll come in. They will have come to one of your shows." I love

[00:36:49] Dr. Nicole: that.

[00:36:49] Karen: And then they're ready to talk-

[00:36:51] Dr. Nicole: Yes ...

[00:36:52] Karen: at the next appointment.

[00:36:54] Dr. Nicole: Oh, so good. And

[00:36:56] Karen: I'm like, that's awesome.

[00:36:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:59] Karen: I'm s- like, that's why I'm doing this. Yeah, it's happening. That's- I mean, this is why I'm doing

[00:37:04] Dr. Nicole: this. Yes.

[00:37:07] Karen: Ah.

[00:37:07] Dr. Nicole: Yes. It's such powerful

[00:37:08] Karen: work. Conversation between partners, c- friends, professionals. Mm-hmm.

[00:37:13] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:37:16] Karen: So, I mean, I'll explain to folks if you don't know about the show. It had just been...

I was in- getting certified as a somatic sex educator, which is kind of hands-on, so working hands-on with the body- Mm-hmm ... to release trauma. And so it's, there's sort of a grace gray zone legally, right? And I was like, man, people... And everything that I was learning in that particular, at that particular school was just expanding me so much- Hmm

like, around this idea of endurance and, like, because they were very, you know, kinda anti-capital. Cool. Anti-capitalism, right? Love that. These ideas of, like, how do we exist-

[00:37:54] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:37:55] Karen: as bodies in space in a free way.

[00:37:57] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:37:58] Karen: But I was like, you know, um- I was learning about, a lot about trans health too. I'm like, people just don't know a lot of stuff, and there's, they're siloed.

They're siloed in their own world, and kinda the last time you learn about sex is usually like when you're eight- you know, I don't know, in high school may- maybe. Yeah, no, I didn't get that. Maybe.

Maybe.

[00:38:19] Dr. Nicole: Abstinence.

[00:38:21] Karen: Right? Oh, you were... Yeah.

[00:38:22] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:23] Karen: Yeah. Okay. I thought, "Wow, wouldn't it be great to have a t- a, a talk show- Yeah ... where we really talk about this?" And it's not like, "Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh." Which is like- Sex.

[00:38:37] Dr. Nicole: Ooh.

[00:38:38] Karen: I really, Venus in part. You said the word. Whoa. You know, it's like, well, what if we like were really talking about it?

Yeah. Like, but it was fun. It was fun. We were laughing, but we weren't like... It wasn't like guffawing.

[00:38:53] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:38:53] Karen: Like, making fun of it. Right ... you know? And, um, and then have some burlesque for the juice, you know? Mm-hmm. And then have, have s- erotic storytellers talking about their own experience and-

[00:39:06] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm

[00:39:07] Karen: wouldn't that be great?

[00:39:09] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:10] Karen: So yeah, I started... I was doing it for o- once a month un- until C- COVID, and then after COVID, it's, it's come... It's ba- basically three or four times a year now-

[00:39:19] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:39:19] Karen: at Lincoln Lodge here in Chicago, and there's gonna be one February 8th, which is a Sunday.

[00:39:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:25] Karen: Um, and then I do a podcast too.

[00:39:28] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, and I mean, that's so transformative. So many people are nervous. That's one level. Nervous to talk about sex, scared that if they do, it will hurt the other person. They'll experience disconnection, abandonment. They'll be told that they're too much, afraid that they're not worthy of having that level of conversation.

And then there's also a deeper level, which is that many of us don't even have the language formation To even start the conversation Exactly. Um, I created a pleasure wheel because I was so passionate about the emotion wheel that we have in psychology that gives us all these things we can kinda point to of like, oh, okay, sad, and then here.

And so I created a pleasure wheel, which dear listeners, on my newsletter. You should totally sign up for that.

[00:40:15] Karen: It's, it's pretty great. Ah. It's pretty great. Thank you. It's pretty great, yeah

[00:40:18] Dr. Nicole: I appreciate that. Yeah. Um, on the website. And, uh, yeah, it got more specific of, here are words that we can use because I think it- it's like another language.

If you ask me to speak another language right now, I would, I wouldn't even know how to begin, right? And so, so many of us need that formation of, here are some of the words I wanna use to describe what I'm wanting, and then the confidence to actually have that with other people. And so your show is so transformative because you hear people having these dialogues, and so many of us will feel longings and cravings, and we're getting to hear people actually make sentences of some of those, like, intangible, embodied things, right?

And then someone says it and you're like, "You're right. That, that is what I want. And, and wait a second, they just said that on this show. Everybody's laughing. No one died."

[00:41:08] Karen: No one died.

[00:41:09] Dr. Nicole: No one

[00:41:10] Karen: died. No one died. And most people don't even look uncomfortable. I mean, they might be uncomfortable- Right ... inside, but no one really is- It's funny, when the show first started, I think there was a higher degree of uncomfortability.

[00:41:28] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:41:29] Karen: People were like, "Okay, what is this thing?"

[00:41:31] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:41:31] Karen: Sure. Where, what, where, what is this event? What's going on here?

[00:41:35] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:41:36] Karen: And then over time, trust built, because there is a lot of repeat, repeat audience. Like, a lot.

[00:41:42] Dr. Nicole: Which is

[00:41:43] Karen: great. They come back every time. And so it's becoming a much more groovy, fun show, and I can really have fun with the audience now.

[00:41:55] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:41:56] Karen: I'm more relaxed.

[00:41:58] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, I think that was my next question I wanted to ask is, how have you transformed holding the show? 'Cause for me, I know when I first started, um, we haven't said this, dear listener, Karen was on the show the first 10 episodes I had. Thank you for trusting me to come on. You didn't know me.

I didn't have a following yet. Like, thank you. Um- Of course . Yeah, man. Uh, and so I remember beginning, in, in one of the first episodes I had, they were like, "Oh yeah, you should get on FetLife." And I was like, "What is FetLife?" You know, like, I had no frame. I was just, like, cracking into this world. Um, and a huge part of the show for my own journey has been transforming my comfort level with these topics.

So- Oh my gosh ... yeah, that's what I'm saying. I wanna hear for you, like,

[00:42:43] Karen: how- Oh, yeah ...

[00:42:44] Dr. Nicole: have you

[00:42:44] Karen: transformed? Oh, yeah. Well, you know, I began everything when I was in my early 50s, right? Mm. I wasn't, I wasn't in my 20s. Yeah. I wasn't even in my 30s. Yeah. I was in my 50s.

[00:42:54] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:42:55] Karen: And I thought I was pretty liberal.

[00:42:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:42:59] Karen: And my joke is, I thought I was liberal because I was a, a gay ally .

[00:43:02] Dr. Nicole: Oh, look at you. Like, that to me was

[00:43:05] Karen: like- Look at you . I'm, I'm LGBTQ-friendly. Yeah.

[00:43:07] Dr. Nicole: Okay. I'm sex positive.

[00:43:08] Karen: I'm down with that. Yeah. Leather men? Sure.

[00:43:11] Dr. Nicole: Yeah . Yeah.

[00:43:11] Karen: You do you. .

[00:43:13] Dr. Nicole: That's great. . Yep. Don't yuck another yum, right? Right. Exactly.

[00:43:17] Karen: Truly.

[00:43:18] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:43:19] Karen: Um- But then as I got in and both in learning, because I was, I moved into tantra circles first.

[00:43:31] Dr. Nicole: Cool.

[00:43:32] Karen: And there was a, a certain, you know... There's a very relaxed quality in tantra circles. Yeah. It's very relaxed. Ah. It's not high energy, like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. No. It's like, it's like, yeah.

[00:43:45] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:46] Karen: We're being really groovy and we're doing this.

Right. And I'm like, "This is awesome." Yeah. Like, you know?

[00:43:51] Dr. Nicole: Totally. Um- It's not, it's not the Berlin techno rave where everyone's fucking, you know? Dun,

[00:43:56] Karen: dun, dun, dun. No, no, no, no, no.

[00:43:57] Dr. Nicole: It's like it's on a, it's on a Sunday, it's bright. Yeah. There are white curtains. There's incense. Incense, yeah.

[00:44:03] Karen: Incense.

[00:44:03] Dr. Nicole: We're connecting.

And I love that vibe.

[00:44:06] Karen: Oh, my God, me too. I'm so into

[00:44:07] Dr. Nicole: it. My nervous system loves that vibe. Me too, me too. Yeah.

[00:44:11] Karen: But, you know, then as I, as I kept kind of moving in different play circles, and it was like, you know, getting invited to a kink party, and I'm like-

[00:44:22] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:44:23] Karen: well, what, what's go- like, I could, I understood basically intellectually what was happening.

Okay, people get pleasure out of pain. Okay. Mm-hmm. Bottom line, great. And there's a power dynamic. Okay, get that. I get that. I get, I get that. But at a certain point I'm like, I don't get this.

[00:44:45] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:44:45] Karen: Like, I got it, and I didn't get it. I couldn't feel it in myself.

[00:44:49] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:44:49] Karen: I really wanted to feel, I wanted to make sense of it by feeling it, and I don't even mean doing it.

I mean, like, something. Like, there was... And then finally- Finally I began, like, under-- because people would be on the show, they'd be talking about it, and I'd be like- Yeah ... "Okay, cool."

[00:45:09] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:45:09] Karen: Like, I'm not yoking your yum. I get what you're saying. This is all really interesting, and it's, it's, um, it's really been only, I would say, in the past couple of years I'm like, "Okay, I get it."

Like, I get it now.

[00:45:22] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. What was the unlock?

[00:45:25] Karen: That kind of what we said at the very beginning, or what I said at the very beginning. Mm. That everyone is a unique creature, and we have ways of processing pleasure. And when I say pleasure, I mean sensation. And some people are very much created to take in strong sensation as a pleasurable thing.

That was the first thing that really started striking me. Mm. Like oh, some people are more attuned to this, period I don't have to, like, love stuff. N- I don't have to love every single thing about kink. I can u- and the second piece was I can use this world to open up things for me that I might not have really given much thought to, because there are whole built-out universes in kink that are there for the experiencing if you want to.

[00:46:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:27] Karen: So if you one day... I have, I have a friend, he's been on the show a lot, and he's a very kinky person, and he was like, "You know, my life, my kink life continues to evolve because I'll just have a, I'll have a impulse." Mm. Like a, like a huh.

[00:46:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:47] Karen: Or cur- one day a c- new curiosity will just- Yeah ... kind of float into my existence, and then I will just sort of follow it.

[00:46:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:46:55] Karen: Follow the kink path.

[00:46:57] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:46:57] Karen: And it will open up something completely new. Mm-hmm. And I remember when I first got to know him, he wasn't into rope.

[00:47:02] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:47:02] Karen: He was just into kind of general sadism, and then he moved into rope, and it was like... And then it became like he was became obsessed.

[00:47:10] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:47:10] Karen: The way some people can f- become very obsessed by rope because- Mm-hmm

it's a very intriguing thing.

[00:47:15] Dr. Nicole: So technical, the

[00:47:16] Karen: art. It's so technical, right? Yeah. It's like, it's- The danger.

[00:47:18] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:47:18] Karen: it's the Boy Scouts on crack.

[00:47:23] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[00:47:26] Karen: But, um, and those sorts of conversations, you know, because I'm, I'm in the conversation business, it's great 'cause I would just get people's... I mean, if I was just by myself with no show.

[00:47:38] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. I know, right? I wouldn't

[00:47:40] Karen: know this. I

[00:47:41] Dr. Nicole: wouldn't know- No ... any of

[00:47:42] Karen: this. I

[00:47:42] Dr. Nicole: know. I

[00:47:42] Karen: mean, I'd be taught it, but I wouldn't, like, I wouldn't push into it 'cause I'm like, "I really wanna understand this." And so-

[00:47:49] Dr. Nicole: Right ...

[00:47:50] Karen: I can see things shifting for me around kink. I mean, personally, like, I can see, like, becoming more...

I'm, I'm more, way more interested- Yeah ... in exploring certain things in this world.

[00:48:00] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:48:01] Karen: It's, it's, and it feels good. It's like- Yeah ... oh, God, this, this reminds me back of the juicy early days when I was- Oh ... like going to my first party, my first play party, like, oh, my goodness- Mm ... I'm going to this. Mm-hmm,

[00:48:11] Dr. Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:48:12] Karen: You know? And now it's like, oh, my gosh, I'm going to this- ... you know, this munch or I'm going to this thing. Oh my God.

[00:48:20] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm,

[00:48:21] Karen: mm-hmm. It's, it's, it's fun.

[00:48:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. And so a big part of what I'm hearing there for you is the ability to play. And so when we're really, you know, we've stepped away from those trauma narratives and we're really embodied and present, that's where we can play.

We can't play when we're in fear and trauma and those sorts of experiences. And so play is a completely different part of the brain, right? The curiosity that we spoke to. And so when you're in that space, there is- Endless capacity to follow your pleasure and to explore where it leads you in all of those pieces.

And also I'm hearing you, you alluded to the each person is their own universe. And so when you really come to that level of sacredness for each person of whether it's the, quote-unquote, same act, same type of scene or narrative, and I'm putting that in air quotes 'cause it's never the same. You know, even if you've done that scene, now you're a person who's done that scene once and this is your second time.

Each time is gonna be different. But when you really sit with the sacredness of this person who's before you, who has a world of thoughts that even if you tried every day to say every single one of those thoughts, you would still never know how they actually experience them, 'cause that's their experience.

And I can only through, like hear that through my lived experience. And so when you really sit like, wow, I'm gonna create some play with you, a whole separate being, all of that, like it brings that spark back that I think a lot of us have when we first go into like, "Oh, the play party. Oh, the dungeon. Oh, this."

Like, it's that novelty. But when we can transform that into novelty with the self of exploration and the novelty of the other,

[00:50:03] Karen: oh Yes. You're- Hot ... you're actually bringing up two thoughts, and I need to keep track of both of them. Yes. The first one is the, the, the one that just sparked for me was-

[00:50:13] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm

[00:50:14] Karen: this is how to stay in monogamy, monogamous relationships. Yeah.

[00:50:18] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:18] Karen: You know? It's, it's, it's being insanely present and curious and knowing that this other person is what, um... What's his name? What's his name? That guy. Ah. Um, Rilke. You know, the unknown country. Mm-hmm. Everyone else is, you know, every- everybody else is- Beautiful

an unknown country. You know? And so, or the, the beloved is an unknown country. Mm. And so you're never gonna get to the bottom of the unknown country, right? Um, so that's the first thought I had. The second thought, oh, what was my second thought? I, I do wanna be clear, because if people are like, "Well, if you were traumatized, h- were you having good sex in those early years- Mm

of exploration before you started doing trauma work?" And I was. It was the fact that I was relatively confident sexually.

[00:51:09] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:10] Karen: And that was due to many things. I came out of the performance world, so I was, I was... There was an aspect of me being in my body, very much so, and being aware of my body. But, you know, when I'm talking about, when I talk about trauma work, it's like that's a more complete sense of being in the body.

It's almost a s- a spirit. The spirit lives- Yeah ... in the body.

[00:51:33] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:34] Karen: And so I think the trauma in those early years of sexual exploration came up more around emotional partnerships I had with people.

[00:51:43] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Yeah.

[00:51:44] Karen: Rather than situations in situ. Mm. Mm-hmm. You know? Of-

[00:51:49] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:51:50] Karen: of, yeah, things like that. It was more of, like, how can I- Be more present with a partner instead of hiding or avoiding or overly attaching, you know?

[00:52:04] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I'm curious, Karen, with all of the wisdom that you have now, what words would you say to your younger self who is beginning that journey? What would you say? I know. And then the, the, the question is always like, would we have listened? Uh, probably not, but let's say we were receptive to it. What would you have said?

I,

[00:52:28] Karen: I, I think I would've said, "This is awesome. You're doing a great job. Keep going."

[00:52:37] Dr. Nicole: Do you think it would've landed, yeah?

[00:52:39] Karen: Yeah. Oh, at the time- Yeah ... I was like, "This is awesome." Like, it wasn't a lot of like I would... where I, I have so few, I've virtually no regrets of those, like-

[00:52:50] Dr. Nicole: Good. Good for you. I love that.

[00:52:53] Karen: Yeah.

[00:52:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:52:53] Karen: I mean, I would say the difficult parts were, you know, the earlier parts of my life when I was kind of, it felt like I was sort of banging around. Mm-hmm. Like, what am I doing? Mm-hmm. I'm banging, just that trapped place. Mm-hmm. And but I could, I could clearly see that I was, year after year I was, I was more aware.

Mm. That I was, I was becoming far more aware and present with myself. I just felt like I needed that really deep somatic work-

[00:53:24] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:53:25] Karen: to bring me to a new place.

[00:53:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:53:28] Karen: And of course, you know, the somatic sex work- That I experienced with other people working on me

[00:53:35] Dr. Nicole: Yeah

[00:53:36] Karen: And in tantra, you know- Yeah ... tantra isn't just a groovy partner-on-partner thing.

It, it can be extremely healing.

[00:53:44] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:45] Karen: And I had extremely healing experiences, so that was... I need to be really clear, like, that was also in the mix, moving me toward, you know, clothing on EMDR.

[00:53:58] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:53:59] Karen: That's an idea. Nude EMDR.

[00:54:01] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Someone's doing it in the underground, I can bet you. Someone somewhere, and it's healing when in the right container, I'm sure.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, and so I'm hearing the importance of community in so many different ways, whether it's your EMDR therapist, the people in the tantric community, the people in the podcast, right? The self is always created in relation. The feminist psychologist- Mm ... would say there isn't even a self.

They're very specific about that. They were like, "It's the self-in-relation," and I find that to be a really powerful stance that they have in psychology, which is to say that we're always evolving. Sure, we are the, uh, culmination of all those experiences. That's who you are. That's who I am, and also this language that is coming out of my mouth is from people who created it way before me, all of the people that I've interacted with, all of the people that you've interacted with, right?

We are harmed in relationships, and we heal in relationships. And so I'm hearing how many transformative people really played a role in creating the safe container for you to expand.

[00:55:14] Karen: Yeah. I'm, I'm really glad you said that, um, because before our interview today, I was thinking about what did I wanna say about pleasure, and I'm like, it really is about being in a relationship.

It's, that for me is, like, the deepest place, whether it's making Christmas cookies or having great sex or whatever. It's, it's like being in the, the balm of being in relationships and being held, whether it's societally... I mean, we all felt it. We're, we're feeling the really long tail of COVID. The ripples are still happening, and we're crawling back.

And if I can say there may be the silver lining could be that some people have woken up to the importance of community. It feels to me like the kids.

[00:56:05] Dr. Nicole: Hmm.

[00:56:07] Karen: See, I'm old enough now to say, "The kids." The kids are figuring this out. Hmm. No, I'm seeing all this wonderful, like, maker spaces and people, like Gen Z wanting to, like, create something more authentic- Yeah

less bullshitty.

[00:56:25] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:56:26] Karen: I love that. I'm so excited to see that.

[00:56:29] Dr. Nicole: Hmm.

[00:56:30] Karen: You know, groups of, like, 10, 12 people, potlucks.

[00:56:35] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:56:37] Karen: That is so fucking wonderful to me. It- it's like, yes, this is the answer. A lot is being destroyed right now. A lot is falling down, but in the rubble, people are, are really putting it together for themselves.

[00:56:55] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:56] Karen: And I saw an influencer on, uh, one of the, one of the moments I was on Instagram this week. Mm-hmm. I saw an influencer- Really despa- a young guy really despair of the fact that everywhere he goes in New York City, people are freaking glued to their phones, even in crosswalks.

[00:57:15] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And- Which

[00:57:17] Karen: is

[00:57:17] Dr. Nicole: dangerous.

[00:57:18] Karen: It's, yeah, it's- Yeah. Oh, yeah. Danger. Danger, danger. In New York City? In

[00:57:23] Dr. Nicole: New York City. Those taxi drivers? No. Yeah.

[00:57:27] Karen: But, like, eventually several things are gonna happen. People are going to, like, double down on their, on their digital use, and that's what they need to do, or they'll break free of it. I don't think this is as particularly sustainable.

These, these are not sustainable habits we have, I don't think, of watching streaming a million hours a night, although when I was a kid, people watched TV all the time- Mm ... and we only had three channels. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm.

[00:58:02] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Like,

[00:58:03] Karen: there's wa- uh, all, there are ways to check out, and there's many reasons why people wanna check out now, but I, I do think some folks will come back.

[00:58:11] Dr. Nicole: Right. Right.

[00:58:12] Karen: I do think they will.

[00:58:13] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I should not go down the rabbit hole with you of AI partners and the whole thing that has happened.

[00:58:22] Karen: No, no, no. I'm actually thinking of- Yeah, I... It's, it's-

[00:58:28] Dr. Nicole: It's, it's interesting. Oh,

[00:58:28] Karen: yeah, we can talk at len- I don't wanna go there.

[00:58:30] Dr. Nicole: No, I know.

Yeah, and that's fair. That's an appropriate... I love that "no." You know? Yeah. It's a, it's a dark space. It's a dark space. We don't need to go to that trauma. Yes, I like the vision of coming back to the humanness 'cause I think my fear with the electronic is you don't, the essential skills of community, like rupture and repair, are not b- you know, when you can just log off of a chat, and it's whatever.

I'm upset with this person, whatever. You know, like, in human relationships, in real life, when you don't just toss people aside, you actually have to go through rupture and repair, moments where you have frustration, you're angry, and what does it mean to forgive people, to work through that, to ha- uh, know how to have boundaries in that.

I mean, those are significant skills that in all these virtual, you know, AI spaces, you're not developing that. And so I think we will feel the ripples of that, and yes, I, like you, I like to be optimistic that we will continue to come back to the in-person life because it is so much richer in that sense and more real.

[00:59:32] Karen: Yeah.

[00:59:33] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Well, Karen, as we come towards the end of our ti- I know we could just talk for- ... hours and hours, which is

[00:59:41] Karen: great And for folks, just to let you all know, like Nicole fully thought we were gonna have a much longer conversation, and I went, uh, we came on and I was... She's like, "I'll give two hours."

Like, "Oh." "I gotta go make Christmas cookies." Gotta

[00:59:54] Dr. Nicole: make cookies. I know. I'm like, "I don't wanna keep you from your pleasure and your cookies. This is essential." The holiday spirit. Gotta make cookies.

[01:00:04] Karen: Iced oatmeal and German chocolate cookies.

[01:00:07] Dr. Nicole: Delicious. Delicious. Amazing. I'm so, so glad that you have that planned.

It's so good. Oh. Well, as we come towards the end of our time then, Karen, I'm gonna take a deep breath with you.

And I'll check in and see if there's anything else you wanna share with the listeners. Otherwise, I can guide us towards our closing question.

[01:00:34] Karen: Mm-hmm. Thank you for this moment. Um- Yeah ... you know what I think I'm gonna say?

[01:00:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:41] Karen: Um, and maybe it's because I'm older, and there's still so much ageism in society.

You know, I started this really kinda turbocharged journey in my early 50s, and I think it's really easy in the middle of the night when you're staring at the ceiling being like, "I, I fucking can't change this, my life. I can't, I can't turn this around," you know, whether you're 25, you're 32, 47. And it's really true.

The journey, you c- you, you can re- you know, recraft your journey, renew it, uh, go in a completely new direction-

[01:01:21] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ... at

[01:01:22] Karen: any point in your life.

[01:01:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:01:24] Karen: You really can. You really, really can.

[01:01:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:01:28] Karen: So I, I want to just offer that to people.

[01:01:31] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:01:31] Karen: You know? And it, it kinda began for me, I decided to take a tantra workshop.

[01:01:38] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:01:39] Karen: Something so different. I'm like, "I wanna do- I wanna try this." You might have an interest in, maybe you have an interest in kink. Take... There's onli- there's a lot of online stuff. Just try it. Try it.

[01:01:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:01:57] Karen: Yeah. You

[01:01:57] Dr. Nicole: know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think my first was a boudoir photo shoot. I was like, "Oh. Oh, God." Yeah. "Me in my lingerie?

Oh, God." You know? But I wanted it. Something was there- Yeah ... speaking to me. Mm-hmm. And Karen, some of my clients, 50s, 60s, 70s, w- a lot of what I hear from them is this fear. Like ri- like you said, right? "It's too late. It's too late, too late." And also, which I love that you spoke to that so directly with confidence, the confidence in your voice.

I think another fear that I hear from them again and again is that, "There are not enough people my age doing this."

[01:02:34] Karen: Well, the fascinating thing is in the tantra circles, every... You know, the tantra circles, the swing circles, there are older people. There's a lot of older people because they're, they've done the things, they've done the kids.

[01:02:50] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:02:51] Karen: Meaning having kids, not doing kids.

[01:02:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Clearly. They- Clearly.

[01:02:55] Karen: They've

[01:02:56] Dr. Nicole: had

[01:02:56] Karen: kids Transcript. The kids are, are on their way. They are done with their first career. Right. Maybe they're over their career. And there's a lot of people out there exploring. There really are. Yes. Because we're...

The bonds of what age is are starting to loosen, and so people are like, "Wait, I'm 60. Hold on a second. I'm still feel great." What am I doing?

[01:03:21] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:03:22] Karen: You know, there's like swinger vacations down in Mexico you can check out.

[01:03:28] Dr. Nicole: I know. I recorded with someone who does cruises and literally does this- There's cruises?

education for swingers there on cruises.

[01:03:35] Karen: Oh, I

[01:03:35] Dr. Nicole: gotta get into that. It's Amber Mallory. It was like so cool. Oh, that's great. Like she's got a fascinating story.

[01:03:39] Karen: That's great.

[01:03:40] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah.

[01:03:42] Karen: So yeah.

[01:03:44] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I really love that you spoke to that and gave that confidence, 'cause I know so many people are, are afraid of that.

But, um, w- isn't it that, um, elderly homes are some of the most sexual spaces? Are they saying? Yeah,

[01:03:57] Karen: they're having... They have an issue with, uh- STIs ... STIs.

[01:04:00] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, exactly. That's- Mm. That's 'cause people are fucking, right? Mm-hmm. So this is - Mm-hmm ... and this is important to talk about, is that it doesn't end right in the 50s.

Mm-hmm. It continues long after. And you're right, people at that point are like, "Well, fuck the scripts. What else are we looking at here? Come on." Yeah. Yeah. Well, Karen, if it feels good to you, I'll guide us towards our closing question.

[01:04:24] Karen: All right.

[01:04:25] Dr. Nicole: Okay, Karen. So the one question that I ask everyone on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:04:36] Karen: Was more normal?

[01:04:37] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:39] Karen: That cuddling and simple touch is as fulfilling-

[01:04:47] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[01:04:47] Karen: as sex.

[01:04:48] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. To the younger part of me who says, "But how, Karen?" "What do you say? How? What does, what does this human speak of? It could never."

[01:05:06] Karen: Well, I would say that it's about really relaxing into yourself with your partner or partners and allowing just to give over to the enjoyment of touch and to feel the cells open. The cells, cells of your skin open under the, the light touch or squeezing of hugs and the warmth of being with another body.

You know, that is, that's the essence of humanity right there. Yeah. That's humanness.

[01:05:42] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm.

[01:05:43] Karen: You know? And we, we, we learn it when we're babies being held by our mothers-

[01:05:49] Dr. Nicole: Right ...

[01:05:50] Karen: or our parents, you know, or whoever the caregiver is.

[01:05:56] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:57] Karen: And, um, we're, we're hardwired for touch.

[01:06:02] Dr. Nicole: So are you gonna make your way to the cuddle party?

[01:06:08] Karen: Is it time? I actually got... I just got an invitation for one the other day and

[01:06:13] Dr. Nicole: I'm like, "Hmm." Hmm. Well, make sure the key works this time, okay? You make sure the key works or we have the locksmith on speed dial.

[01:06:21] Karen: That's

[01:06:24] Dr. Nicole: right. Oh, Karen, well, it's such a joy to have you on the podcast today. Thank you for coming back. Oh, likewise.

[01:06:29] Karen: Thank you so much for having me.

[01:06:31] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:06:32] Karen: Thank you so much. Mm. And, uh, perhaps you will be on the show?

[01:06:34] Dr. Nicole: I'm always happy to come back, always happy to come back to Wild + Sublime. Good. It's such a joy. Good.

I'm sure all the listeners are dying to know, where can they find your beautiful voice and your show, Karen?

[01:06:45] Karen: Uh, well, you know, Wild + Sublime is a podcast on all of the major podcast networks, and you can go to wildandsublime.com.

[01:06:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, amazing.

[01:06:54] Karen: And, and Nicole's, uh, interview that I had with her early last year was the most downloaded of 2025.

[01:07:04] Dr. Nicole: Ugh. So- It was such a dream to wake up to that email. When I saw it, I was like, "Oh

[01:07:08] Karen: my God." I know.

[01:07:09] Dr. Nicole: It's happening. So good. It's happening.

[01:07:11] Karen: So good.

[01:07:11] Dr. Nicole: People are alive. They're f- they're feeding into it. Yes. Yes.

[01:07:14] Karen: We- we're talking about relationship anarchy.

[01:07:16] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Mm. The revolution is happening.

[01:07:19] Karen: It is happening.

[01:07:20] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:21] Karen: Yeah.

[01:07:22] Dr. Nicole: Amazing. I'll have all of that linked in the show notes below for you, dear listener, so you can go find my interview and all of Karen's links. And so thank you again, Karen, for coming on the show today. My pleasure. And enjoy your cookies. Thank you. Enjoy your cookies. Thank you. Amazing. Dear listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Modern Anarchy.

Thank you for sharing this episode with your friends, with your lovers, with your community. Truly, it means so much to me, and I am so grateful that you are here. If you are wanting to release jealousy in your non-monogamous dynamics and step into compersion and pleasure-filled connection, you can read my book, The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide, for free on my website.

There you will also find so many other free resources, including worksheets on how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non-monogamous dynamics and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure-filled sex and relationships.

So head on over to modernanarchypodcast.com to find all of those free resources, and I look forward to seeing you next week