272. Queering EMDR and Psychedelics – Cash Waller

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Cash. Join us for a conversation about reprocessing trauma and savoring your pleasure. Together we talk about querying the field of psychology, the power of dance, and being devoted to nature. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you tuning in for another episode each Wednesday.

My name is Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, author of The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and the first study on relationship anarchy, and I teach students from around the world how to craft pleasurable sex lives and non-monogamous relationships.

Dear listener Oh, this episode with Cash is so special. Cash came to record in person, dear listener. So many of my recordings, all of them are done virtually, but Cash actually came over and we recorded in my studio, and there actually is just so much sweet intimacy and magic that you can hear in that between us.

You can just feel the, the back and forth that sometimes is lost through the virtual space, and I'm really excited for you to hear this more raw, vulnerable, in-person recording. And yes, queering the field of psychology is a lifelong practice full of listening to our own intuition, w- trusting the intuition of our community, right?

Not always putting it into the power of these systems, these ivory tower academic systems. And I'm really, really grateful for this conversation as a starting point and invitation to think more critically about the ethics of all these different systems. And there's so much, so much good wisdom in here around what it means to build mutual aid, to build communities that are dancing, queer communities that are dancing in joy and processing the stress of this world, particularly in America, through our bodies, through the power of joy and dance together.

And I'm so excited for you to tune in and to enjoy this lovely, lovely episode with Cash. All right, dear listener, if you're ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore all of my free worksheets. You can explore my free psychedelic jealousy guide. You can explore all of my free downloads at modernanarchypodcast.com.

That's also where you will learn more about my upcoming non-monogamy group. It starts the last week of August, and scholarships for that program are awarded on a rolling basis. So if you're interested in joining, you can learn more in the show notes below. I would love to see you in my classroom in August.

And I also wanna say thank you to all of my Patreon supporters. Thank you for supporting this podcast, this movement, this educational work for the last five years. My heart goes out to all of you, so thank you. And with that, please know that I'm sending you all my love, and let's tune in to today's episode

Dear listener, there's a space already waiting for you where you are invited to let go of every old script about sex and relationships and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure, empowerment, and deep alignment. I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you.

Together, we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead. Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real transformation possible. And I'll be right there with you, guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation.

This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution. Say yes to your pleasure and visit modernanarchypodcast.com/pleasurepractice to apply.

And so the first question that I love to ask each guest on the show is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:05:01] Cash: Hi. Hi, I'm Cash. Um, I was raised by a lake and the fire and the land I grew up on I am proud to help others through their psychedelic journeys as a psychedelic life coach. Um, and then I also, I help humans with complex PTSD, um, find a way through their trauma, uh, into healthier wellness and living. And I work with primarily queer clients, and it is my great honor to do all of that.

[00:05:42] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Well, welcome to the show, Cash. Hello, hello. Thanks, Nicole. Ah. It's fun to have this in-person recording. I feel like the listeners might be able to pick up on a little bit of differences today, so I wanna name that out loud so I can feel it. Yeah. Yeah. Our energy is colliding. Yeah, exactly. It, it makes a difference.

It does. It does. Mm-hmm. And so I'm curious for you, Cash, your pleasure liberation journey, getting to this space, the human that you are, the ways that you help people now, what does that journey look like for you? Um, I have been, I've been really blessed because I came into the world to a pretty witchy family.

Mm-hmm. And I was told from a young age that I could be who I wanted to be. Nice. So I feel in a way authenticity ca- comes quite easily to folks in my family. So it's definitely been a journey, but I feel like I have, I've had some unique life experiences early on. Like, I'm non-binary, and my parents always let me dress gender neutral, and I think that was a huge lesson early on that I could be whatever I wanted to be.

[00:06:57] Cash: I knew things were pretty wonky in the cultural landscape that we're living in from a very early age, and that questioning led me to finding liberation and pleasure from a young age on. Mm-hmm. Uh, and then I did have an undergraduate degree in women, gender, and sexuality studies. Uh-huh. Like back when, like everybody was making fun of that degree.

Uh, inappropriately so- Mm-hmm ... 'cause it's an amazing- Mm-hmm ... um, degree pathway, and that really helped me understand that, you know, there's forces and systems that- Mm-hmm ... wanna hold us against. They, they wanna hold us away from pleasure. And so I kinda got their card pretty early on. So my- Nice ... my mentality's always been question everything.

[00:07:43] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Which obviously, you know, people are socialized to not explore their pleasure as a form of colonization, so. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So with that, I feel like I am pretty blessed in the fact that I can access my joy and pleasure, um- In a pretty, like almost like some people would say selfish way, but I- Yeah ... am a relationship anarchist, so I don't have the kids or...

[00:08:11] Cash: Not that relationship anarchists can't have kids, but I just live into that life a lot, and I don't have a, like a primary partnership, and I don't have a, um, children, and I don't have-- currently right now I don't have a house. So I don't have these things that like get sometimes get in the way. Or, I mean, I guess that's not a very nice way to put it.

But they, they sometimes get in the way- Oh, yeah. Yeah ... of seeking and finding pleasure. But I constantly doing those things 'cause I am my own-- me and myselves are our own responsibility. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, I hear you. It's the, um, the relationship escalator, the narratives that you can find joy in those pathways, but for so many of us it's, um, unquestioned, right?

[00:08:55] Dr. Nicole: It's just the thing that you're supposed to do. And so for you, you've found your own pathway off that sort of linear trajectory or the expectations, and you're finding your joy in it every single day it sounds like. Totally. Similarly. Yes. Hey. Very happy to be here. Me too. But it sounds like you came from a space of, uh, much more liberation than I did in terms of your parents were, were more like open to these sorts of ideas.

It's a really fertile starting point for this. Mm-hmm. Do you remember what sort of messages you got around sexuality and relationships in your younger ages? Yeah. Um, so I was sor-socialized as a woman, so it was a lot of put men first, date men, be with men, uh, which was always confusing to me and I have never fit into that stereotype.

[00:09:45] Cash: And it-- again, it's like further con-convoluted because I'm trans, non-binary, and like people were mistaking me as a boy all the time. Mm. Uh, but then also being like, "Oh, that's a girl," and like correcting them. Like I was watching everybody else's confusion about who I was, who the fuck I was. Mm-hmm. And so I think I got a few different complex- Um, socializations because I was- on one end people were like, "Oh, that's a woman.

You know, that person has a vulva, that's a woman. That person needs to be with men." And then, then people were like, "Oh, that's a masculine lesbian. That person needs to be the dom-" Mm. "... needs to be the-" Sure. "... needs to be the butch, needs to be the X, Y, and Z." Yeah. And it was like n- actually none of these categories fit me.

What the fuck? Yeah. So just a lot of resisting all the way around. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. I mean, you're been put into, like, so many different boxes and where are you at now? What feels the most authentic to ways that you engage with pleasure today? I had to break free of a lot. I think, you know, lesbians listening, shout-out.

Um, I think- ... I do identify as a transgender non-binary lesbian, which, you know, people can spin their wheels about as much as they want. Yeah. I don't really care. Um- Yeah ... uh, so I think my earlier parts of my life were kind of decolonizing what that meant for me. Mm-hmm. It's like I, oh, I didn't need to be... And deconstructing it and being like, oh, I don't have to be, you know, this masculine lesbian that has to be dom forward and has to be assertive, and I got stuck in that role for a long time.

Mm. And people just, like, kind of expected it out of me. Mm-hmm. It was really, it's really not good that we do that to people. Um- Yeah ... and especially in the lesbian community, this whole, like, you know, our history and culture relies on, you know, butches, butches and lesbi- and, uh, femmes would, like, go after each other, and, like, that would be, like, the main dichotomy of how lesbians in the past, like, connected.

Mm-hmm. And it was just, like, this regurgitation of cishet norms. Mm. Yeah, exactly. And so- Yeah ... yeah, that, when I came out earlier in life, that was definitely present and I had to deconstruct that out of myself. And these days I'm very, uh, selective and there's no urgency with my pleasure And I think that a lot of people can urgently seek pleasure from others.

Mm-hmm. Um, e- even especially when they have, like, a sexual- Yeah ... like, power about them. It's easy to, like, use that energy to make yourself feel better. Hmm. Mm-hmm. So I don't find myself doing that anymore. Mm-hmm. And I'm just much slower, and I'm integrating my, you know, sexual intimate pleasure experiences, like however I'm finding them, and not just with people- Yeah

but with places, things, activities. Right. Um, everything's just moving a lot slower. Oh, yeah. And it's really beautiful. Yeah. 'Cause then, like, you can have one intimate pleasurable experience and then unpack that and integrate that for much longer, making the experience last longer. Yeah. You know, instead of this, like, quick consumeristic urgency of pleasure- Yeah

which I was in- definitely participating on, in earlier on in my life, so. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I feel like the speed of the life that we live at under capitalism, it's so fast, right? So we don't have a lot of time to savor things and really slow down and be with them when you have to keep up with the rat race and the hustle of that.

[00:13:12] Dr. Nicole: And so deconditioning our bodies and our minds to slow down, to be with whatever the experience is, even the pleasure of pain, grief, suffering, all of that, right? That's just not the norm of our culture. And then there's also that, that moment where you have to realize that you're the author of your own life, to understand that you actually, rather than just seeking the next thing, next thing, you're actually gonna slow down and decide what you wanna focus on.

Mm-hmm. AKA integration, right? Like, I want to sit with this experience, process it, and be with it, rather than thinking that pleasure will come from the next external thing. Mm-hmm. It's more of an internal moment of like, "I'm actually gonna redirect my focus, my thoughts, my energy, my consciousness towards savoring this pleasure that I've had before."

[00:13:53] Cash: Mm-hmm. To even, yeah, you saying that sounds way sexier. Than what? Than just like consumeristic, quick- Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah ... you know, bang, bang. Like get the next thing. Get the next- Yeah ... you know, like run to the next high. Right. Run to the next sexual pleasure or intimate experience or- Yeah ... yeah Or treating people like that.

[00:14:12] Dr. Nicole: It's just, yeah, so- Which a lot of people do these days with dating apps and, and, uh, like you can just kind of find the next thing. Mm-hmm. It's quite easy to do that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so I, I feel like I get a lot of clients in my office who want like their sex life to be so charged and erotic and hot and all of that, and they usually don't like the advice that I give, which is that you have to find the pleasure in all of it, right?

Mm-hmm. It's like, it's like, um, you can't just turn the light switch on and be like, "Cool, now I have this really hot sex." Mm-hmm. Like, "This is great." It's like, no, you have to really learn to savor all of the slow things, all the little pieces. I'm curious, what did that unfolding look like for your own life as you started to really like slow down and savor pleasure?

[00:15:00] Cash: Okay. Love this. So what's coming up for us is like parts work- Mm ... and how the deeper I understand my parts of self- Mm-hmm ... the more pleasure and just euphoria that we can experience. Um, each part, and I see this across my client load, um, each part Of self discovers and explores pleasure and euphoria in different ways.

And so it just keep- my c- life just keeps telling me the more internal work you do, the more robust your life gets. Mm-hmm. So as I sort through myself, 'cause I don't ask my clients to do anything I'm not doing myself. Yeah. That's, that's bypassing. Mm-hmm. So as I take this deep look into who I am and what parts of self come forward at what different parts, uh, what different times in my life, um, the better I get at understanding which parts need to get something met.

[00:16:03] Dr. Nicole: Mm. And it's real- really beautiful. It's just really beautiful to know yourself in this way, and it's why I like, you know, I hope that people find their different parts of self and, and can understand them from, for, from a multiplicity kind of standpoint. Yeah. Instead of us all viewing ourselves as singular.

[00:16:25] Cash: Mm-hmm. Um, but different parts want different things, right? And it's interesting being non-binary 'cause I can have, you know, parts that are agender, parts that are a little more feminine, more masculine. I'm a little more masculine heavy, but- Mm-hmm ... um, it's, you know, I kinda sense into myself and I'm like, "Which part of myself finds pleasure in this?"

Mm-hmm. And go seek that experience out. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But then there can be a whole swath of yourself who's wants to be pleasured in a different way. Mm. So you do have to have some internal knowing of like- Yeah What that looks like and the difference. Mm-hmm. And how to get them m- met maybe in the same experience.

Sure. That's kind of fun. Yeah. Or maybe completely different experiences. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I remember when I first met you and we were talking about parts work, I had said... I think I did. I told you this story about how much I fought it and resisted it. Did I tell you this? No. I don't think we went there.

Um- We did talk a lot about parts work leading up to that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I was doing my psychedelic training, and I remember hearing about IFS and parts work 'cause it was really helpful for psychedelic experiences. You know, there are- Yeah ... w- I now use the words, you know, but at the time I was so ag- against it.

[00:17:31] Dr. Nicole: But there are parts of ourselves- Mm-hmm ... that come out- Mm-hmm ... in psychedelic experience. Maybe a childlike part, you know, or these other parts that we put into boxes and that we haven't touched that come out. But my psyche, I was so angry- Mm ... with my supervisors who were telling me this. I was like, "No, I refuse to be broken into all these little pieces.

I am not gonna be separated. I am a one. I am cohesive. How dare you tell me that I have multiple parts?" Oh, yeah. Look at. It was really doing something. It was doing something, yeah. 'Cause I was like, "No, I'm, I'm cohesive. I'm not broken into these smaller pieces," right? And so I, I s- I, I guess I saw it as such a negative- Yeah

ra- um, rather than a, a lens to view just different aspects and longings, and therefore parts of self, right? Which it started to become way more clear to me even in non-monogamous experiences where there would be quite literally a part of me that really wanted to experience, um, abundant love- Mm-hmm ... and sexual connection, and then a really monogamous part that would fucking hate that.

Yeah. And I'd be having both at the same time, and I was like, "Well, maybe there are parts of me." Oh my goodness, right. 'Cause I am, I'm in two opposite lands right now, like truly, and they are talking to each other.

Uh-huh. I can totally resonate. Uh-huh. That's a thing that I think, uh, comes up, right? There are parts of self that are want one relationship template and ones that would feel much safer in a different relationship template. Oh, yeah. So kinky and edgy. Love that. Yeah. But I do wanna go back and just honor that part of self that was, like, a bit resistive.

[00:19:01] Cash: I think, you know, that part of self is a really great protector in you, and I also, with all of these new modaliti- not New, newly westernized modalities- Mm-hmm ... we gotta be skeptical. Oh, yeah. You know? We, you know, there's- Yeah ... there's a lot of harm, especially done to queer people by, with modalities, conversion therapy- Mm-hmm

et cetera. Yep. And it's very healthy to question all of, every modality, in my opinion, and seek many, many viewpoints before utilizing a modality. Yeah. Um, and, you know, EMDR, parts work, all of this stuff was indigenously based before it ever was picked up- Mm ... in the Western world. Um, so it's really important to kind of be resistant.

Not re- you know, resistive, but just do your education and take your time utilizing these really big mind-altering modalities, right? Like, to all of a sudden understand, "Oh, shit, I do have parts of self." Like, "Oh, what does that mean?" Mm-hmm. You need, you need-- That's a psychedelic experience- Mm-hmm ... to, to, like, truly start to sense into having multiple parts and wondering what that means, and re-parenting your littles and trying to take care of the little peop- like, little, um, traumatized pieces of yourself.

Like, that's a big ask, and it takes quite a bit of integration. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I feel like this makes me also wanna ask too, when you were talking about the questioning of the systems, when you introduced yourself, you didn't share that you were a therapist. And I'm like, am I saying the bad word? Or like, what are you the choice of that?

Yeah. Uh, so it was interesting 'cause your question was so insightful. It's like, how would you like to introduce yourself? Yeah. And like for us, like for me, like it's... A therapist is only one little piece of me, and I, I ha- like I love decolonizing the therapy space and like it's just, there's just so much power and control between a therapist and a client, and I try really hard to dissolve a lot of that.

You can never dissolve all of it, but it's, it's definitely not in line with my value system. Yeah. You know? So it, you know, um, I always say th- uh, therapists are, they have a lot of control. They're soft cops in ways, right? They can literally send you to places that you don't consent to going. Yeah. You know?

So definitely a therapist against... I am a therapist against the, um, industrial complex of mental health. Yeah. And it's so interesting 'cause part of our job is to do informed consent. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. And we do. We come in and say like, or at least how I was trained, which is to do the, um, "If you tell me that you're gonna harm someone else, seriously, kill yourself," right?

[00:21:36] Dr. Nicole: Then we would have to break confidentiality. Mm-hmm. But at least in how I was trained, I was not trained to sit down with a client and be like, "Hey, if I'm worried you're gonna kill yourself, I will hospitalize you against your will, just so you know." Well, you... Mm-hmm. Like that's not Mm-hmm ... that's not the talk I was supposed to, you know?

But that is essentially what we're saying through this weird coded language of we'll break confidentiality. Mm-hmm. But we're never like, "Yeah, we would have the cops come and get you and take you against your will." Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, no- ... we really like to code that language down. Isn't that crazy? Doesn't... Yeah, the system really likes to pretend that that's not the power that is granted, until all of a sudden shit hits the fan and you're going to the hospital without consent and- Mm-hmm

[00:22:15] Cash: you just got a wellness check called on you and, and police being called for mental health clients. It's all... I'm like, what? I know. That's why I find that it's hypocritical almost to say like, "Oh, it's informed consent." Uh-huh. It's like we don't even actually do that. It's not informed, right. Right. And that's why I have the conversation with clients is like, "Who's your, who's your safety person?"

Mm-hmm. "Let's get that emergency contact on file." Yeah. Like, who am I calling when you- Yeah ... need a safety check and a safety team, you know? Um, try to do those extra levels of care. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so the life coach gives you a portal outside of- Exactly ... that framework. Which you hear in the counseling therapist spaces a lot of flack thrown at people who do life coaching.

[00:22:59] Dr. Nicole: Oh, sure. Yeah. Hear that a lot. Yeah. Um- And I can understand that. And- I can Uh, because, uh, I don't know. I can and I can't because, you know, licensure and being licensed, again, it's just such a colonist structure. And then, and also I understand that clients do like being like, "Okay, this person's licensed."

[00:23:23] Cash: Yeah. "And I can call the licensing board if I need to, you know, have some help if this person does me wrong." Whereas life coaching, it's a little bit of the Wild West. Um, but I would say, like, your shot is as good as any with either profession. Life coaching's like there's some really passionate, well-trained life coaches out there, and they do a lot of good healing work, and then there's therapists who do the same.

But I've had so many clients come to me be like, "This last therapist, this last therapist." Like, so many stories. Really? So I would say, like, you're, like both, both pathways are just riddled with people who aren't really doing the work. They're doing a lot of spiritual bypassing and- Yeah ... not really looking at, um, the power that they have over people Especially if they're not talking about it.

[00:24:09] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Which we don't take care of therapists or counselors or life coaches, right? There's no, there's no, um, like health insurance. There's no community care. Yeah. There's no mutual aid- Right ... regarding it. Like, uh, we're all out here swimming on our own. Because, because there's a-- I write about this in, I was in a chapter in this book called Queering EMDR.

[00:24:32] Cash: Mm-hmm. And I kind of, I talk about this topic, like there is a reason for the self-hate. There's a reason why we don't take care of people. There's a reason- Mm-hmm ... why there's, you know, it's, there's a lack of mutual aid. It's all based in individualism. Mm. And the, the system's working just fine. Mm-hmm. Like if we don't take care of people, um, then we can, then we're all stuck in the, the sickness of our culture, and then we're all too, like, stuck in our illnesses and our mental dysfunctions far too much to organize and like be like, "Wait, actually, this government doesn't work for us.

These systems don't work for us." Nobody's got energy for that, and there's a reason for that. It's 'cause the systems of oppression is working exactly how they're meant to. Mm-hmm. So it doesn't give us a ton of time to like, take care of ourselves. And counseling and, um, you know, counseling is just like trying to stop the bleeding at this point.

But what we really need is like a whole system overstr- like overhaul, where we focus on grassroots organizations, mutual aid, community care. Like, why are we raising children alone? That's, that's never how humans are, have ever been made to be. So- Yeah ... we've lost sight. Yeah. Yeah. But, but that's on purpose.

[00:25:45] Dr. Nicole: You're right. Right. Exactly. There's lots of people profiting. We've been colonized. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And the, uh, yeah, so I have lots of thoughts about like postpartum depression and what that experience looks like. The suffering is very real, and so I always say that, like I'm never discrediting the suffering and also looking at the systems that create that sort of conditions where that it seems inevitable under a nuclear family, especially depending on where you're at in terms of class privilege and access to resources.

Absolutely. 'Cause the more resources you have, you just buy the people that support you, like your nanny and whatever it is. Yeah. You build your, your ecosystem, your village, but you just pay for each piece of it instead of a- yeah, so. Yes. Yeah, let alone all the individualistic therapy that we get, right?

Like, uh- Yeah ... I think for a long time before I got into the field, and even now I'd be so against like groups. Like I didn't wanna do group work. I didn't wanna be- I want one-on-one time with a therapist, one-on-one, one-on-one, one-on-one, right? Mm-hmm. Missing out on the beauty of what actually the power of what it is to be in groups, and that's how we existed, you know, for all these years.

So it's just- Yeah, it's eating itself in a really chronic way. So it's like, no, give me my one, one, one-on-one time where my story can be seen, and I need to be seen in all of my magic. Yeah. It's like fascinating. W- well, so this makes me think of the dance community that is thriving up in Detroit. Mm. And, um, known as Wawe Ya Tanonk.

[00:27:01] Cash: It's a beautiful thing. It's, you know, d- uh, Detroit is known as the birthplace of techno. Mm-hmm. And, uh, it's a beautiful culture that is very thriving, and I talk to my DJ friends and all the dancers about this all the time. I'm like, "You all, we are trauma processing together." Mm, yeah. And it's, like, so exciting, and, and I wanna bring that conversation to the forefront because what we're doing is life-changing and, you know, 'cause, like, communities have a really hard time organizing.

[00:27:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm. But, and it's like comm- because it takes a lot of effort. Mm. It's, it's- Mm-hmm ... they're, and we're all dissociated and tired- Mm-hmm ... because, like, capitalistic, oppressive-ass life in America is difficult. Mm-hmm. And so creating communities is so hard. Um, but it's really, dance is a beautiful thing to organize around.

[00:27:45] Cash: Mm-hmm. And Detroit is doing it really successfully. It's a, the queer community there is, like, very trans-led. Mm. And like, um, you know, queer people flood the dance floors. It's like- Yeah ... it's amazing. And I do think that-- so dance can collectively bring about collective healing. It's like a way for us to be processing trauma together.

[00:28:03] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And then it's also a singular practice, too. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, you're dancing in a sea full of people, but you're, you're moving your body in a very unique way. Mm-hmm. And even though, like, the, the beats and the... Like, depending if it's ecstatic dance or if it's techno, you know, these different forms- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

[00:28:21] Cash: you're still around people, but you're having this, like, intimate experience with yourself. Mm-hmm. There's so much pleasure in it. I can, like, move my body one way. Mm-hmm. I can, like, understand what my chronic pain is doing that day and, like, move with the chronic pain and not hurt myself, and like- Mm-hmm ... it gets, like, sexy.

Mm-hmm. It's like it feels good in my nervous system. Mm-hmm. It's just, like, a deeper way to fall in love with yourselves. So it's, it's a wonderful, it's wonderful practice, right? Like, you get the, you get the both the group and the individual- Mm-hmm ... pleasure seeking. Yeah. I mean, your mirror neurons when you're looking at all the people.

[00:28:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. The listeners who don't know, right, the mirror neurons are the, the magical neurons in our body that when you see another person, say they're smiling, you'll feel that smile in your body and often will start to mirror truly and do the same smile back. Yeah. Um, and so when you're in a crowd and you see everybody dancing, like, you are picking up on that in your own body, right?

And so you start to create this sort of, like, collective hive mind energy with that experience. Were you always so comfortable with dancing and being in groups, or was this also an opening up and a journey of comfort for yourself? I have not always had dance as a practice in my life. I have always moved my body and enjoyed moving my body, and I think I've always sought out dancing spaces, like electronic music when I was, you know, just getting into college and then- Moving my body in sensual ways, definitely.

[00:29:48] Cash: But, um, it hasn't been since the last probably five years that I've, like, really sunk into my own dancing- Mm ... just, like, constantly. It's like breathing. And- Mm-hmm ... I live in a geographical area that supports community dancing. Yeah. Is not seen very many places. Okay. I know that that's a privilege. Okay. I can go out three times a week and go dance, and Detroit's beautiful 'cause it's like all of us are dancing so often that it's like- Mm

we don't, you don't need to do medicine or substances. Like, you can just go out and dance. Mm-hmm. It's never, like, the expectation. Mm-hmm. 'Cause so many people are participating in... Like, the dance is the medicine. Mm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So I, I feel very lucky 'cause it's just, like, part of my life. Um, but after a session I l- I love to dance and get...

'Cause I'm all about getting other people's trauma out of my body. Mm-hmm. And I think dance is a huge way to do that, and singing. I do both- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... pretty much every day. But no, I think it's, it's a thing that you have to gain back. Dance and song are both human rights, and- Mm ... they, you know, again, Western culture, it won't be happy until it colonizes every little human artifact out of our consciousness.

[00:30:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. And so you can know, which I see everywhere, that our culture is so colonized because dance and song are gone. Mm-hmm. People are embarrassed to dance. Nobody uses their voice. Yeah. Everybody thinks they're bad at dancing. Everybody thinks they're bad at singing, and it's, it's, it really, like, breaks my heart because- Yeah

[00:31:12] Cash: when I see people practicing those things, they get better and they remember it's a human right to be able to- Mm-hmm ... move our body- Mm-hmm ... to be able to sing our songs. Like- Yeah Any strife that any culture's ever been through, they've been dancing, they've been singing. It's how you get through the misery.

Mm-hmm. It's how you get through the suffering. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, it's a, it's a big warning. It's a big red flag that our community feels this uncomfortable dancing and this uncomfortable singing. Yeah. But I think with your other question was, have I always been as comfortable in groups? Groups have always been, uh, not very hard for me because I, everywhere I go I'm very interested by how people are connecting and talking.

I can, it doesn't matter what group of people I'm in, I just kinda wanna see how they're functioning. Yeah. It's fascinating. It's beautiful. Yeah. There's like, um, you know, when people say they're bored, I'm like, how? Mm. There's so much content everywhere. Like- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah ... you know? So groups are quite enticing to me.

Mm-hmm. But I, I know that's not the, the case for everyone, and I find that to be a big blessing, and I feel very lucky- Good ... that, for that just being my natural, um, way of being. But- Nice ... which also leads me to being able to access the dance floor, 'cause you do have to think about ac- accessibility and disability justice, right?

Like, not every community is accessible, and people can't always go. So- Right ... again, it's a, it's a privilege of mine that I get to, and, you know, it's a privilege of mine that I get to be in community as strong as I am. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, I liked the phrase you had used in terms of dancing to release other people's trauma in your own body.

[00:32:45] Dr. Nicole: I'm curious if you could say more about that for you. Oh, my goodness. Yes. We are but humans- Oh, yes ... in these sticky little spiritual bodies. Yeah. You know, like, um, we all have auroral fields. We all have these fields of energy- Mm-hmm ... right? Like, research-based, like, backed. Mm-hmm. Like, it is really well known at this point that we have energy forces running through us as humans.

[00:33:10] Cash: Mm-hmm. And when we bump up against each other, it can be virtual, it can be out in the street- Mm-hmm ... it can be anywhere. We're picking up each other's, like, vibrations. Yeah. Um- For the person who struggles with that I, I usually like to, like, bring it into a level of, like, the voice and the body, for example.

[00:33:27] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Like, right, if I start to go like, "Oh my God, what's happening right now? What's happening? What's happening? What's happening?" Mm-hmm. Like, you'll start to feel stressed if you're listening, right? And if we're like, "Ah, well, you know, we're just over here walking around." Mm-hmm. You'll start to feel calm.

Mm-hmm. Right? So like I usually for the person who's like, "What is the energy thing?" I usually bring it- Yeah ... like, 'cause sound is energy and vibration, but y- Uh-huh ... I'm-- There's a past version of myself who's like, "What the fuck are you saying, Cash?" Oh, yeah. "No." Yeah, I get a lot of that. I- So I try to bring it into something for somebody, like, who's, like, tangible, tangible.

[00:33:58] Cash: Something tangible, the word that they would wanna Google is inter- uh, interoception. Sure. Sure. So like, you know, interoception, understanding your body and, and the difference. Just like any class on physics and sound- Yes ... and breath. And that's why I always say, like, we have aura fields, and it's backed by research.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like, that's why I'm always like, and also. Yeah. Um, because yeah. So I... That's like a whole-- That's kinda making me think of a whole another topic of, like, plant medicines and psychedelics and how when you're in right relationship with plant medicines and it- and yourself, you start to understand everything that was kind of fed to us since we were little is kind of fucking horseshit.

Mm-hmm. And then you start to be like, "What else is possible?" Yeah. Um, and then when you do sit with some of these great teachers, the... 'Cause the plants don't forget. It's ancient knowledge- Mm-hmm ... that was passed down. Mm-hmm. Like, humans die and they forget. Mm-hmm. We have to remember shit. Mm-hmm. Sitting with plant medicine has been some of the greatest honors of my life, and they have taught me things like energy fucking matters.

[00:35:04] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. And like when you walk by a tree and you hug the tree with consent, you ask the tree if it would like that hug, that has a positive response in your body because humans were always supposed to be nature centered. Mm-hmm. So I don't censor. You'll notice I don't censor my language. I don't use psych- like, psychological jargon that's in the counseling field because I don't really mind if people think I'm a nut job or...

[00:35:30] Cash: Nut job I think is an ableist word, so I would say I don't really mind if people think that I'm out there and, like, not, I don't know, like, stable. Yeah, sure. Like, because I'm talking about energy, you think I'm not stable. Sure. Yeah. Um, so yeah. So I don't... I will tend to, I'll try to throw in, like, you know, toroidal fields are literally research backed.

Oh, yeah. Um, but I don't bend over backwards if people want to think that I'm weird because I use spiritual language. And spiritual language obviously comes with a caveat because you don't want to culturally, uh, appropriate language either. So, um, but I think there is a natural, um, unfolding that happens when you sit with plant medicine.

Um, you start to realize that things are way more fantastical- ... way more pleasurable, way more deep- Mm-hmm ... than we were originally taught. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Which includes me collecting my client's energy as I sit there- Yeah ... you know, hour after hour. I can feel it- Yeah ... building up in my body. Yeah. If I'll h- uh, sometimes I have particular, like, 'cause what's happening in these sessions is so psychedelic.

[00:36:38] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Like I'll sit, I'll be like, I'll look around. You know, I have my, I have a solo private practice, um, and I do it virtually, and I'll have these like ineffable, ineffable experiences with clients, and I'll kind of look around afterwards sometimes and be like, "Did anybody see that?" Mm. Like, that was fucking wild.

Yeah. Uh, the places that- Yeah ... you know, especially if you're using modalities like EMDR- Mm-hmm ... like I am- Mm-hmm ... um, which is eye movement desensitization reprocessing, such a psychedelic modality. Mm. Like people aren't on medicine at all- Mm-hmm ... but they're going places, you know? P- and then you layer that with parts work, and people are understanding.

[00:37:14] Cash: They're like at the same time as processing their trauma, they're getting in touch with their sometimes younger selves and reprocessing, um, huge traumas of the past- Mm-hmm ... and coming out on top. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like, and just like coming , I don't even love that language 'cause coming on top means like that's the expectation of where they should get.

[00:37:33] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. But they're coming out more aligned. Mm. Mm-hmm. And I have these experiences where I'm just watching these people like, oh, my clients are some of the, like, my clients are some of the most admirable people I've ever met. I see them do such good hard work, and I tell them all the time, I'm like, "You're inspiring me.

[00:37:50] Cash: I'm inspiring you." Yeah. This is like reciprocal. And I, and I think that is like s- For me, 'cause this podcast is really bringing forward like solo pleasure. Mm-hmm. Like yes, pleasure with other people. Mm-hmm. Obviously that's important. Yeah. But I'm watching people go through their EMDR journeys and like their, um, these like psychedelic experiences pretty much in session, and I'm watching them create pleasure with themselves.

Yeah. And that happens in my own work with my, my own therapist, right? Mm-hmm. Like, I'm, I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I did it." And yes, the therapist is witnessing us and gassing us up, which feels great and- Mm-hmm ... is a very important part of the step. Mm-hmm. But like that internal pleasure you get when you tackled some trauma memory that was, that felt impossible- Mm

to handle. Mm. Like never thought you'd get past it. Mm-hmm. But you like learn how to get it saved in the right pl- place in the brain. Mm-hmm. And you like, you can then access pleasure because it's not improperly stored and you've- Mm ... metabolized the trauma. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Come on. Yeah. That's the sexiest... It gets me so excited.

And that's something that happens for the person inside of the person. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I don't know. I, I somehow just made metabolizing your own trauma sexy, but - Yeah ... it is. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like So I'm not as familiar with EMDR. Right. So that's where, part- partially also maybe where we could spend some time explaining what that looks like.

[00:39:21] Dr. Nicole: I have a working understanding of it. Yeah. Like, if I wanted someone to do it, I would refer them to you or somebody else. Yeah. That's enough. 'Cause that's not my... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I do the sex therapy and relationship therapy- Yes ... and then they can come see you. Um, so for- Yeah ... for more context, like, what are you doing in these sessions?

What are you noticing? So beautiful. Um, what EMDR, it's actually an eight-phase modality. It's really complex. It's really, it's a quite a feat to explain it to people. Yeah, I'm sure. It takes me months to explain it to my clients. Yeah. I go, I... And I'm a informed consent ho. Yeah. Like, the more you can help- Right

[00:39:56] Cash: your client understand what's gonna happen to them, the more ethical it can be. So, you know, ex- as you can imagine, f- explaining eight phases of pretty much psychedelic trauma reprocessing- Yeah. ... takes some time. Yeah. Um- You ready? Yeah. Yeah. So there's the eight phases, and the first couple of phases, you teach your client how to ground.

[00:40:16] Dr. Nicole: Mm. And you teach- Smart. Smart ... which can, which can trigger the shit out of people. Oh, yeah. For sure. Um, especially people, like I work with clients with C-PTSD. Yeah. And that group of folks does not feel safe in their body hardly ever. Yeah. So to ask them, "Go within and find safety"- Yeah, right ... you know, that can take years.

[00:40:32] Cash: Scary. Yeah. So you can be in the first phases of EMDR for years. Mm. So which, you know, if you're ever thinking about EMDR, doing EMDR, make sure you ask your therapist these questions, these counselors some of these questions, 'cause you just wanna make sure that they are more trauma informed. 'Cause again, these modalities can cause harm.

Mm. And so it's really important that you're getting people that you trust to do these modalities with. Mm-hmm. So that's the first couple of phases, um, grounding, and then also traum- like- digging around for trauma nodes essentially- Mm-hmm ... and trying to locate times o- of your life that felt traumatic, and then associating them with a negative cognition- Mm-hmm

that, you know, probably haunts you in your life- Mm ... in the form of depression, anxiety, or dissociation. Mm. And then you get to the reprocessing phases, which you have ... That means you've selected a target, you know how to ground yourself, um, you and your counselor have really good rapport. You've found the memory that you wanna re- reprocess, and then you go- you have a reprocessing f- session.

And in that reprocessing session, you're gonna bring the memory up. So, y- you know, you start to feel it in your body. You start to get the distress scale going. You start to, um, you bring up that negative cognition. And you also bring up the positive cognition- Mm-hmm ... of where you want your brain to go.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Which is a very important part of the modality. Mm. We're not just getting rid of the negative cognition and, you know- Right ... balling from there. Right. You, like, you have to replace it with something that feels strong and- Mm-hmm ... and more aligning for yourself. Mm-hmm. And the reprocessing session also incorporates bilateral stimulation.

Right. So a lot of ... It's in the EMDR, eye movement desensitization reprocessing. So some people will do the eye movements. Some people will do self-tapping. Mm. Mm-hmm. Some people will have tappers that do the tapping for you. Yeah. Some people will do audio back and forth. Mm. Cool. Um, bilateral stimulation through audio.

So there's quite a few different ways, and I always caveat that these techniques come from indigenous communities. Mm. Again, most of the westernized modalities have some roots in- Yeah ... indigenous cultures. And the back and forth beat of the soul, that's inherent in drumming, clapping- Mm ... singing. Mm-hmm. Um, and that has all been taking place for centuries- Yeah

outside of white cultures. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Um, and they've just been baked into culture instead of having to do them in a, in a room- Room with ... with EMDR on your own, right? Yeah. So, so they're, you know, it's important to know that the reprocessing phase of EMDR is coming directly from indigenous knowledges.

[00:43:05] Dr. Nicole: Mm. And so this back and forth while thinking about that traumatic memory, what it does is it ... There's a bunch of science behind it, but what it does is it pulls forward memory reconsolidation, which is so great because you can bring up the memory. It can get activated in the brain, in the limbic system, the pain and pleasure area of the brain.

[00:43:26] Cash: It can be metabolized through this action of bilateral processing and, um, talking about the memory. And then what you'll see, and it could take many sessions- Mm-hmm ... for somebody to clear what we call a target. Mm. But then after, the person will metabolize it, and it, the memory moves from the limbic system into the frontal lobe where rational thoughts live.

So then once it's moved there, the person doesn't have the associated anxiety, and they now have a new positive cognition that has replaced the negative cognition. Mm-hmm. And that does wonders for people- Mm-hmm ... as you can imagine. Mm-hmm. And you actually really believe the positive cognition. It's, it's quite wild.

Um, because it's all based on the AIP model, so Adaptive Information Processing. It claims that our brain is just like a physical injury. It wants to gravitate towards healing. Yeah. So if we give it the right conditions and safety- Mm-hmm ... the brain and those memories, they want to be saved in the frontal lobe.

[00:44:22] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. They will. Mm-hmm. They want to. So if we just, if we make that environment, it will happen. Mm-hmm. For most people. Not everyone. Not, not every modality works for every person. Right, right, right. And so it's a, a working understanding of a mix of like exposure within the right context of safety and then also like re-engaging with the body and movements that remind you you're not in the fight, flight, freeze, fawn anymore.

[00:44:46] Cash: Mm-hmm. If I have a working understanding of that. Yeah. So that's the, that's kind of how I conceptualize that. Mm-hmm. And then the later phases there is, there's that check the body. So like the client- Right ... would come back after one of those intense sessions working towards their positive cognition. The client would come back and we'd be like, "Okay, let's get out a fresh worksheet.

Let's check the body. Let's check the distress units." We bring up the target memory again, and we make sure everything is clear. Mm-hmm. So it's got this like, you know, these steps. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So you really make sure something is cleared, which I think is really awesome about the modality too. Right.

[00:45:18] Dr. Nicole: And then you're also forming narratives as you do that of like- Yes ... "I'm doing this clearing, working work, you know, on this." Like, which is interesting what that brings up for clients in terms of actually the, the work of the narrative itself, not even just the, like the fact that you're processing the narrative.

Like the meta level. Like, oh, I'm- Yeah ... coming to a therapist to work on this thing and how that shifts people's- Mm-hmm ... perspective on the experience itself, you know? I'm curious when you combine this with the work of psychedelics, what have you seen in your work and how these two things come together, and parts work, right?

That's a big- All of it ... like all of these things come together for you, and so what do you see in your work? Yeah. So, um, this is the layering of modalities that I think is so appropriate for our times, right? Mm-hmm. Like our, our t- cultural times are some of collapse and confusion and chaos, and so we need some extra oomph.

[00:46:09] Cash: We need some help from some really awesome entities, right? And I think EMDR wants well for people, parts work wants well for people, uh, psychedelics want well for people. All three can be seen as psychedelic. They're all... Queerness is psychedelic. Yeah. It's all, you know, it's altered state of consciousness.

This, the, they're all They're benefic. They're, they want to help. And the systems of oppression do not want to help. It's just so clear. Yeah. So when it would make sense that we start layering these helpful modalities that they provide a- almost like an extra layer of support protection. Mm-hmm. Uh, loving parents almost.

Yeah. It's, you know, a lot of us didn't have securely attached parents and, and this is the way we do it. This is how we re- reparent ourselves. And so as you're layering them, I see that they enhance each other. Um, and I do all three of those things separately, and it's beautiful medicine on its own. But it's just like a collaboration like you and I are doing right now.

Mm-hmm. Like, you know, we're, we're coming together to have a conversation to enhance knowledge for other people and ourselves. Yeah. And so that's what it, that's what it kind of does. Mm-hmm. And so it just goes to deeper consciousness levels. Mm-hmm. So, you know, when a client is in the EMDR reprocessing and then o- in comes their parts work and maybe they're doing some low-dose sublingual ketamine at the same time.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You have the ketamine holding, you know, opening these portals that are not open in our normal consciousness- Mm-hmm ... in a pretty loving way 'cause it's got that- Mm-hmm ... anesthetic effect. Mm-hmm. It's giving you a little bit of confidence to look at the trauma 'cause you're like taking, your body is in kind of a holding, a loving holding pattern with the ketamine.

[00:47:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then the EMDR is doing its thing. It's like do, do, do, that bilateral stimulation. Mm-hmm. That indigenous wisdom is coming through. Mm-hmm. And then at the same time, oh, maybe here comes enters a, a part of self that the client ne- didn't even know they had. Mm-hmm. Do you see? So it's like all flying in the same container.

Mm-hmm. And the parts work can be a really good stabilizing force as well, and it can be not only trauma parts, but spiritual parts that come in. Mm-hmm. And sometimes because the ketamine, maybe the ketamine or psilocybin, right? I'm just like u- Yeah ... using one medicine, um- Right ... as an example. But because those portals are open, um, in a different way, it can bring about mo- more stability and more holding.

[00:48:41] Cash: And at the same time, if you have somebody who is using them inappropriately, it can really harm you. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The, like there's always, there's always a caveat. Yeah. But if, if, I don't kn- if, if that makes sense. It's like they're, they're layering... The medicine, the, the different modalities are layering on top of one another, but they're helping each other.

[00:48:58] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm-hmm. And doing them at the same time or separately? Yes. I'm hearing doing them at the same time. Y- yes. With lower doses than like a traditional psychedelic dose. So, yes. Yeah. Because you- 'Cause- ... you would wanna do more, um- Psychedela- Yes ... psych- psycholytic ... psycholytic. Yeah. You'd wanna do, you would wanna do more psycholytic doses.

[00:49:20] Cash: Okay. Both are appropriate for different- Mm ... um, environments, right? 'Cause sometimes people do need the dissolving of their ego in order to make the progress- Sure ... that they need. Yep. Um, but I find at this point in my career that the psycholytic dose is, is pretty fucking cool. Right. And so I understand that to be more of a talking dose.

[00:49:40] Dr. Nicole: It's not as high. Right. For someone who doesn't know, right, it's like a little bit of a lower dose. Well, 'cause you, you have to br- okay, so for proper memory reconsolidation to happen with a trauma memory- Mm-hmm ... you have to be able to bring it up. Mm-hmm. And like get the body activated- Sure ... and get the, you know, the stuff rolling.

[00:49:55] Cash: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and that can be kinda hard if you're blasted in- Yeah. ... a psychedelic dose. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So I think we are gonna s- Completely ... and we are already seeing the, the psycholytic dose is kind of king right now. Mm. And I think it will continue to be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is the...

[00:50:14] Dr. Nicole: There's pieces of this that are ancient, but it's also very novel in our field- Mm-hmm ... in terms of finding the research and what's working for folks, right? Yeah. So it's like a very exciting part, and I can see how I can see how the first phase of doing so much of the grounding skills are essential, especially once you start getting into psychedelics or really starting to get into a space where you can become so activated without tethering that we usually have in our- Mm-hmm

normal consciousness. Which is the gift of it all, right? Like, you're getting out of your ordinary states of consciousness. That's actually why we're getting to process so much more. But it can also mean that you get swept with the wave that much harder if you don't have those grounding skills, especially when you're processing something that's really traumatic or heavy, right, on that substance.

Mm-hmm. You know, it's just a, it's a moment. Uh, you can't, you can't fully prepare for where that will go- Mm-hmm ... good, bad, or otherwise. I mean, it's all, it's all stuff to process, but like, sometimes it's really scary. Which is why it's imperative to have a good relationship with your- Yeah ... the facilitator that you're working with.

[00:51:13] Cash: Mm-hmm. And that sometimes doesn't come for a while. Rapport takes a long time to build. Yeah. And you wanna create safety because, again, some facilitators can feel like they know what they're doing. I've heard horror stories- Mm ... of people, uh, utilizing psychedelics and utilizing EMDR. Really? I've heard it all.

Really? Yes, my clients have h- told me horror stories of- Yeah ... it's all, it's so bad. Mm. There's, I mean, there's so much predatory, egotistical work happening. When any person gets a career or a, a facilitating role and has any kind of power over someone else, I, the privilege-y thing- Mm ... does a weird thing to their brain.

And it, like, makes them, like, bypass and not think they need to do their own work. They're like, "Oh, I'm just using this modality. I don't need to do my own work." Mm. And I'm like, "Oh my God." Mm. So, so I think, again, I think- Ah ... you know, for clients listening, I think, you know, take your time before you- Yeah, it is

re- and ask the right, you know, ask the questions like, "Hey," to a counselor, like, "What do you do if something goes wrong?" Or, "What do you do if some, if I have a, you know, a trigger?" Yeah. Um, and y- you know, "How do you handle that?" Yeah. "What does that look like for you?" Yeah. Uh, it, it, uh, it's difficult to, like, remember to ask your therapist or counselor questions, um, but you're totally allowed to do that, and you're totally allowed to, like, understand what you're going through, like what you're being put through.

[00:52:38] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, especially in the first couple sessions. A lot of therapists give info calls or, like, short calls. You could always ask those questions. Yeah. Any... And go ahead. It's just hard because of the power differential. Mm. Because it feels- So it really- Yeah ... like even as I'm talking, I'm like, "Oh, I'm putting the work of making sure that the client is safe on the client."

[00:52:56] Cash: Exactly. So that's in- built. That's a problem. So what r- what really needs to happen is our, is our mental health industrial complex needs a, a big trauma inform- Oh, yeah ... inform- Mm ... ation processing class. Like, they need to understand what they're- It's bad ... doing and what they're holding. That stuff's not really taught.

[00:53:12] Dr. Nicole: No. Um, and it's quite scary. So I get that there's some trepidation with these modalities, and I think, again, I think it's very healthy to question these things. But I, uh, as a, like, I think all therapists and counselors should be putting themselves through what they're asking other people to do. Mm.

In terms of getting therapy themselves Or psychedelics or- Yeah ... parts work. I'm like, "You can't just ask people to find their parts of self if you've never done that." Right. I heard of someone being a ketamine, um, facilitator and not doing their own ketamine work. Ah, interesting. 'Cause it's like, um, like CAP training above ground, and I was just like, "Huh, interesting."

Yeah, like with the- I know therapists who have never had therapy. Right. Right. I know, yeah, EMDR therapists who only did EMDR during their training. Yeah, I find it all fascinating in that sense. Well, that's because you're f- then those people are focusing fr- from the ego. Yeah. They're just relying on their ego like, "Oh, you know, I have this power and privilege.

[00:54:10] Cash: I'm gonna teach and- Yeah ... help from that place." Right. A scary place. Right, right, right. And usually when I, I feel that very strongly in the, like, non-monogamous queer experiences. It's like I, I, especially in the non-monogamous sense when, when I c- I could not have a therapist who's monogamous. I just wanna be very, I just can't.

[00:54:29] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I cannot. I can't. I can't. Mm-hmm. Yep. Like Some thing- some things you just can't. Yeah, some things need to be understood by the person. Yeah. Lived. Lived. I, I don't, I'm sorry, you don't know what the fuck this is. You cannot, you cannot provide me your basic understand. I'm so- Maybe for that little part that was like, "I'm monogamous."

[00:54:55] Cash: They could have their own therapist. Oh my God. Well, I worked with someone for six years who was monogamous, and I, I became non-monogamous in that time, and it beca- it was a, it was a thing. It was rough in many ways. Yeah. I would say stuff, and she would react to it in ways that I felt like I had already processed through, and she'd still be, like, shocked about things.

[00:55:13] Dr. Nicole: Like, "Oh my God, how did you, you met your metamour? How did that go?" Mm-hmm. And I'm like, "It was totally fine." So, like, I, it was a lot of teaching, hand-holding, stuff like that, so. Yeah, that can be horrible. Yeah. So I work with people who identify as systems. Mm. Um, and I have a lot of knowledge in that category.

[00:55:28] Cash: Mm-hmm. And, uh, they have worked with people who don't understand systems. Mm-hmm. And, you know, a lot, uh, for people who don't understand what I'm talking about, it's, um, people who identify as multiple people inside of themselves. Mm. And they have a very complex consciousness. It's really beautiful. And a lot of therapists in the past have been like, "Oh, you need to integrate all of those selves- Mm

and become one person." Mm. Uh, that's so harmful. Mm. Um, and so I've seen that in my own work. A lot of people who find a lot of beauty and introspect in being like, "Yes, this part of self is this part of me, and this part of self is this part of me," and- Mm-hmm ... they're very, um, happy and comfortable, and, and it helps them understand themselves better.

Mm. And then you can imagine how harmful it is when s- when a therapist is like, "Oh, we have to integrate all of that, and you can only be one person." And it's just very, it's just not the medicine that is needed. Right. Yeah. It's, you really ha- yeah, it's just really not it. Yeah, I mean, you're speaking to a, again, we're in a system that has a, a book And a lot of unnamed assumptions of what it means to be a good, quote-unquote, healthy, quote-unquote, normal person.

[00:56:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm. And if you don't fit into those categories- Mm-hmm ... anything else is wrong, deviant, needs to be fixed, problematic, right? And so yeah, it makes sense, right? We could spin here for hours on just how, how deep the impact of that goes. I think what, what hurts for me is that I didn't have any of this awareness prior to getting into the field or any of this consciousness, right?

Yeah. So it's like, that's I guess why we talk about it. I, I think it's important to know your therapist's values, and I know that's not normal in the field. You know, in the field it's normal to just be this like, "Oh, I'm a professional. I don't have these values. I'm just a professional. You come work with me as I'm a professional."

Mm-hmm. But that's upholding a certain system and values and ideology. Like, there's no way I'm meeting with a therapist who won't tell me some of their values and identities or these things. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep. So Yeah. And so I think it's a really great way to c- decolonize the therapeutic space is by being a fucking human I wanna know what's your lived ex- what's your, what's your positionality in all of this?

That impacts your lens. And I'm sorry, if you can't have that conversation with me, then, uh... And there's a way to do that in terms of, "Hey, this is my experience. These are my things. This is where I position myself. And in this therapeutic exchange, the energy will be towards you and your experience." Mm-hmm.

"And I'm gonna focus on h- supporting you, and it's not about me." Mm-hmm. "And also, I can recognize that my lens and how I show up is absolutely my positionality in these systems." Mm-hmm. Right? Like, I, if I can't have that conversation with you, then I don't wanna work with you. No. Oh my God. I had an abusive therapist who would, like, talk for at least 25 minutes- Really?

[00:58:08] Cash: 30 minutes a session- Really? ... talking about themself. Yes. Really? He was a terrible, terrible, terrible experience. How long were you with them for? Oh, like, too long. Yes, I was. 'Cause of the power dynamic, right? Exactly, yes. Okay. Yep, yep, yep. Um- Damned rude ... so with that, I have a, something called the 90/10 rule.

Okay. So if you're talking about yourself, 'cause I'll have other clinicians be like, "Yeah," 'cause I'm really, I, I, I function from a feminist lens. Yeah. Multicultural lens. Yeah. Um, decolonizing the therapeutic space lens. Yeah. And with that, I share my experience sometimes. I ask for consent. Mm-hmm. I'll be like, "Hey, you care if I share a little something?"

Mm-hmm. And client says yes or no. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then I, um, 'cause it can be modeling, right? Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, your client can learn a ton from your story. Yeah. But I got the 90/10 rule. Like, if you're- Mm ... talking about yourself, and I mean 10% is even kind of high. But if you're- Yeah ... that's just, like, the standard is.

But if you're- Mm ... talking about yourself more than 10% in a client's session, like, or even really, you know, like, talking more than 10% in a client session, you're doing it wrong. Mm-hmm. You should never take up more space than the client. Mm-hmm. You can do a very quick disclosure. You know, especially if, you know, clients are asking you questions.

Like, you don't have to pretend you're a blank slate. Yeah, no. The blank slate came from white patriarchal- I know ... you know, psychiatry. Like, that's not- Mm-hmm ... good for any of us. Yeah. The usual turnaround is the, "Well, why, what would it matter to you if I answered this question?" Yep, that's me. "Why does it matter that- Yep Why are you asking?

[00:59:38] Dr. Nicole: What would it mean to you- Mm-hmm ... Cat? Which I still think is interesting, right? But that is like a pretty mu- it's a pretty big fuck you to somebody who's ask- 'cause somebody's asking you for vulnerability- Oh my God ... and you're responding like a fucking clinician. You're s- you're responding like a white cishet male able-bodied Christian clinician.

[00:59:55] Cash: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I feel like the nuances that's sitting in everything you're speaking about is a lot more painful for a lot of therapists to sit with. I don't think they're ready to like... Mm. I want them to be, but I think a lot of therapists just feel protected. Like, "Oh, I'm not gonna share about myself.

[01:00:11] Dr. Nicole: I'm not gonna do this. I'm not gonna do..." It's so much easier when... And you know, it's kind of, um, in the extreme example, it's a manualized treatment model- Mm-hmm ... where you don't do... You are teaching the whole time you're doing this manualized treatment. The more you get into relational- Mm-hmm ... and the more you get into relational with a systemic awareness- Mm-hmm

the more we're in this like, what are we doing phase, and it becomes much more dynamic and much more personal- Mm-hmm ... 'cause the personal is the political. And so if you have that feminist lens, then you're constantly knowing that every single time you're showing up with a client, it's the personal and it's right there.

[01:00:44] Cash: So good. That's the... It's like that's where the work is, right? Yeah. And like- And, and your client's not gonna open up to that if you're just like a blank slate. Yeah. It's not gonna happen. Why are you asking that? Oh, man. It immediately makes me uncomfortable. Like, where'd Nicole go? To- I'm behind the mask.

What part is this? I'm behind the mask. It's so much safer. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. Yes, exactly. It protects the- It's so much safer ... okay, so this is what we're doing in the counseling field, right? We're, we're saying- Don't put too much of your personhood into your counseling because it's dangerous. Mm-hmm. And I'm, I think it's bullshit instead that we're not...

How about we train our clinicians to understand what proper self-disclosure is- Mm-hmm ... how much self-disclosure is appropriate. Mm-hmm. S- but, okay, and figuring out what stability inside of yourself as a clinician feels like so that you don't inappropriately self-disclose. Like- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm ... that's why therapists spend too much talking time about talking about themselves.

There's something that's unfulfilled- Mm-hmm ... inside of them. They need to be seen. And in a egoistic way. Even just with power stands, yeah. Or they need friends. Mm, fuck yeah. It's all really- It's scary ... gross. Yeah. And so, so for me, I work my ass off. Like, I, I sing, I meditate, I dance. Y- right? Like I'm, I'm convening with the plant spirits and- Yeah

trees and nature around me. Yeah. And I have a, you know, I put effort into my own community. Mm-hmm. I put effort into the people that I love. And- Yeah ... because of that, it just naturally protects me from oversharing with clients- Mm-hmm ... from acting inappropriate with clients 'cause my life is fed. Yeah, exactly.

[01:02:23] Dr. Nicole: You don't need to be seen. And that's, and that's pleasure. Like- Right ... I create my own pleasure inside of my life. I don't need to take pleasure from my clients. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It, it shouldn't be that hard, but it, it needs to be said. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, the common thing I heard was always, um, share, disclose when it's in the benefit of the client, which is really unclear when we're working un- under systems.

Like, if you, if you see someone, we're all locked in systems, and when you, when you see someone really in a system, is that just my bias looking at w- how they should get out of it? So when I'm thinking like, "Oh, I'm gonna disclose in the benefit of the client," is that's just filled with my own bias of what I think is the benefit.

Mm-hmm. So it's just, it's still right there. It's a blessing. Like, I don't know, I don't know what's act- you know? Like, I'm just a human being. Mm-hmm. You know, so we really don't know. No, and this is where I always, again, it's really hard to equalize the power differential, um, with clients, and I do that by verbalizing a lot.

Mm. Like, ask a lot of questions. Mm. Like, "Hey, how was that for me to self-disclose?" Mm-hmm. "Hey, can I self-disclose?" Yeah. Um, e- even dur- you know, I'll, I'll check in with clients and be like W-- how would you know if therapy didn't feel right? Mm-hmm. I get, like, real, like- That's a great question. Yes. I love that.

[01:03:39] Cash: 'Cause I've noticed, like, y- every three months I, I ask my clients, like, "Hey, how are we doing?" Yeah. Like, you know, kind of, "Tell me how therapy's been feeling for you." Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I, I recognize that because of the power differential, I could ask that question and people still won't tell me. Yeah, won't tell you the truth.

[01:03:54] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. So you really have to, like, help the client understand that they do have autonomy, they do have, um, informed consent, and they can say no. Mm-hmm. And when a client says no, I, like, celebrate. Mm-hmm. I'm like, "Oh, this feels really tension-y- It's gonna be a better one ... but this is fucking awesome." Yeah.

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's almost like asking that question just in pleasure in general, like, "How could this be better for you?" You know? Yes. Is that my last question. Like, even if they say, "Yes, this is great. Like, I love our therapeutic relationship." It's like, "How could it be even better? What could I do to be better?"

[01:04:25] Cash: Yes. Yeah. That's really good. And I think-- Well, but where my mind goes is like people would even be offended to hear the word pleasure being brought up- Mm ... in a therapeutic context. Maybe. They'd be like, "That's inappropriate." I have-- You know, 'cause the word pleasure- Mm ... comes along with the connotation of like sexuality and intimacy.

[01:04:43] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm. But you can have appropriate intimacy in your therapeutic sessions without crossing boundaries. Yeah. Though I don't think a, a lot of clinicians are hitting that mark. Sure. Yeah. My private practice is called The Pleasure Practice, so maybe, maybe that's why I only get on. I'm like, I'm like, "Wait, what?

The pleasure can't be-" Yeah. I'm like, "Wait, that's my name." What the... But yeah. So yeah. In that context, no, not- Yeah, exactly. No, but that makes sense. For your like typical clinician, the word pleasure is probably very like, "What? How can this be more ple-" Right, right, right. People really connotate that with sex.

Well, they wouldn't even be like... Yeah, exactly. It's connotated with sex. Yeah. And people would be like, "Well, why do I even have to be in charge of my..." Or, or- Help my client ... thinking about- Yeah ... pleasure with my client? That's an abuse. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Fascinating. So that's so sad. And it's, it's similar with the words love.

[01:05:29] Cash: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oh, man. Love really triggers clinicians. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I once recorded with the person I sent you their psychedelic stuff. Yeah. Mm-hmm. We had had a great conversation where they talked about how they, they love their clients. Mm-hmm. And if the client says it first, they'll say it back. And at the time I was very like, "That's so beautiful.

[01:05:48] Dr. Nicole: I really love that. Like, that's so great." And then I worked with my therapist for six years, and when I no longer had financial ability to pay for her, she told me her sliding scale started at 160. Yeah. She could do a couple sessions at 75, but we'd go up to 160. And I couldn't afford that at the time. And so I got dropped from that relationship- Oh

after six years. And so it made me really rethink the concepts of like her feeling comfortable saying, "I love you" to her clients when they say it back. Mm-hmm. And I've, I, you know, I had never done that with my therapist of six years, but if I had- How much it would've hurt ... oh my God. Like, I really don't think we should be saying, "I love you" if you cannot- Mm-hmm

hold that client through whatever X amount of time they don't have money. And I think it's obviously a, a, it's a unique experience. I had been with her for six years. That's a whole different relationship than a couple sessions- Mm-hmm ... even six months. And so I think the ethics of it would be unique, but like- Mm-hmm

I really don't think we should be saying, "I love you" to our clients if we are not prepared to hold them through periods of financial instability. 'Cause it raises the intimacy. Ye- Yeah, because when, when that relationship ended, she did a lot of what I'm saying in terms of like, "Well, Nicole, this is a boundaried relationship."

Okay. "And I understand this is probably hitting all of your financial trauma with your family." Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then started verbally retelling my trauma experience with the police and my family- Oh, no ... in the last session. I know. When there was 20 minutes left. She's like, "I'm sure it reminds you when the cops came through the door and bo- I know.

I know. That's what I'm saying. That's exactly, when you were saying that, I was thinking that. I was like, I was like, "Damn, Heather, you should have not done that." Those clients. The last 20 minutes. Clients be telling me bullshit. You do not start replaying my trauma that I told you years ago. The whole thing.

How f- how dare you? Yeah. No. I had to stop her. I literally, I literally was like, "Stop. Absolutely." 'Cause you know, now I'm a doctor too, so I like, it was like, I was like, "Stop." I was like, "Stop. Absolutely stop." You know, and she did. But like how many clients feel the empowerment to tell their therapist- No

absolutely stop 'cause you're traumatizing me. It's very hard. I told you that story years ago. I don't need this in our last session. Yeah. Wow. Oh, I'm so sorry. Thank you. Yeah. Holding it with you, but it's really fucked. Yeah. Um, you know, I've, I, I f- I love that you brought this up. Yeah. And I can totally see that if she would have said she loved you back, that that would've been a bigger heartbreak.

Do you ever do that? And 'cause this is like something I think about, right? Like, 'cause I've always kind of respected and like honored clinicians when they choose to say they love clients in specific situations in their own practice. I don't tell my clients that I love them to keep separation between me and my clients- Yeah

[01:08:24] Cash: and the boundary clear that there can be unforeseen circumstances that obliterate our relationship that are outside of both of our control. Mm-hmm. So exactly kinda what you're saying. Yeah. I'm, I'm happy that you brought that up. Yeah. I, I hadn't thought about it as far as, oh, I've worked with this person for many, many years.

Years. And now they're gone. Yeah. Doesn't feel like love. No, it doesn't feel like love at all, no. Or love shouldn't feel that way. It's a transaction. Mm-hmm. Right? And love is not transactional. Mm-hmm. Although, when I think about some of the more like spiritual teachings of my life, it's always been that we love strangers.

[01:08:59] Dr. Nicole: We love everybody, right? We learn to love the stranger on the street. So then like in that way, yes, of course, I love my clients, right? Mm. But yeah, once we get into this container where it's also a transaction. Mm-hmm. Plus the word love. You can't all the way dissolve the power differential. You, you can't Not all the way.

Yeah. So if there is-- That's a good question, right? Or a good prompt question. Like, if there is any type of power differential, can one person appropriately say, "I love you," to another person? Well, parents with kids. Power dynamics, yes. Good point. But it's not a, it's often not a, uh, financial one. Mm-hmm.

Although some people do foster children to have that sort of financial- Well, and this is making me think of dual relationships, right? Mm-hmm. Because we have therapists who are misguided and act like clients' parents or lovers or, um, coworkers or, right? Like you can g- some therapists creep into all these categories with clients, and that's also inappropriate.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious if, are there any words of advice that you would give to your younger self when looking for a therapeutic space? Damn. I, you know, I got got in the past, so, um, that's a really big question for me. Yeah.

[01:10:25] Cash: And unfortunately, there's a sadness coming up for me because I don't... Because of how our mental health system is just naturally set up, I think you have to trial and error it. Yeah. I don't think there's any safety protocol that can prep you to be completely safe navigating systems of control and power.

[01:10:45] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I th- I think informed from this conversation, if I ca- I ... Part of me, post my six-year drop, I don't want a therapist. Mm-hmm. 'Cause I've been hurting. Now I'm like, "No." Um, but I think that, uh, a question in line to some of the things we had talked about, if, if you ask your therapist, "How do you feel about the power dynamic between the two of us?"

Yes. "And your positionality with your intersecting identities?" Exactly. And if they jaw drop and don't have a- Then you know that's not for you. Yeah, exactly. If they look at me and say, "You know what? This is actually something I think about a lot and often, and I really wanna work with you in a way to make sure that it feels authentic and safe- Yeah

and not a power..." Like, that's the therapist I want, who's like, "This is a gray space, and I'm in the nuance of it, and there's no right answer." 'Cause also if someone comes back with like, "I have the perfect answer to answer this question," I'd be a little bit like, "Hmm." Mm-hmm. Even too confident, you know what I mean?

So like, I want someone who's like, "This is not an answered question. Like, I'm in the gray space nuance with you, and how do we adapt to each other?" Like- Yep ... then we're on board. Okay, got it. Totally. Yeah. And I, I totally respect the hell out of clients who ask me that w- like, from the first session. Good.

Like, um- That's an ideal client too. Oh. You're like, "Yeah." Yeah. Like, "You're gonna push me, I'm gonna push you. Let's go." Yeah, let's do this. Um, yeah, I think that's a great way- Yeah ... um, to ha- like, in general, ask your helping professionals questions. Mm-hmm. Who cares if it puts them on their... Actually, you want it to put them- You want, I do

I put it on their toes. Yeah. You wanna see what they act like when they might be defensive or under pressure or- Yes ... you know, it, it's important to do those things. Yeah. Definitely. And I, a little hack that I do, I'll, um, when people are looking on, like, Psychology Today or anything for a therapist- Mm-hmm

[01:12:25] Cash: I'll be like, "Okay, put in LGBTQ and also EMDR-" Mm ... as the filters. Sure. 'Cause it has a higher propensity of leading you to more trauma informed clinicians. Sure. If they're willing to work with the vulnerability of LGBTQ folks, obviously the people I'm telling to look for therapists are queer. So- Yeah ... that filters out some clinicians.

Mm-hmm. And then if they know how to do EMDR, they at least understand some wheelhouse of how important it is to go, you know, to do deeper trauma work. Yeah. Um, it's not a perfect fail-safe thing. Right. But sometimes when you use the filtering like that, it can kinda help. Mm-hmm. But then yes, then the questions once you do get into a relationship with a therapist.

[01:13:10] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, that's a whole other space too. Yeah. Yeah, so trusting your intuition, trusting your gut if it doesn't feel like the right space. Which is hard for people who have trauma networks. Right. And when you come into a space that part of the intention is to process difficult content, it might not feel good.

So that's also the other thing. Especially in couples therapy work, if you have, like, a high conflict couple and I'm like really trying to work with them, they, they're probably gonna be really mad at me, you know? Like that's a part of it too, so. I'm curious, you know, when you look back on your, your journey in all of these different modalities, both the personal and the professional and the, and the beautiful gray space between the two, what's the biggest lesson you've learned around your relationship to pleasure?

[01:13:55] Cash: Uh, to keep searching for it, right? Mm-hmm. It changes over the lifespan. Yeah, it does. Um, and it changes as different parts evolve inside of myself, and, um, and also devotion. Like, I devote to nature. Mm. I, you know, go for walks. I talk to trees. I say thank you to the pine cone. Like, really, it can ... The more devotional you can be, right?

Mm-hmm. Like, I wake up and I go to my altar and light my candle every day. Mm. I listen to the same meditation before bed every day. I have these rituals and routines that keep me satiated in my own pleasure. Mm-hmm. So I'm not constantly seeking it from others. Mm, yeah, big. And then when I do have pleasure with others, it's even, like, more expanding and beautiful.

Yeah. Because it's ... I know that I'm already taking care of my own pleasurable needs, so then, then I can receive from another person. Mm-hmm. So it's like my cup is already filled, and then I get, like, this, the, the amazing pleasure from another. Yeah. That's where I think, um, I think it took me a long time to learn that.

[01:15:07] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Um, but as far as my profession, it, it bleeds through, right? Right. Professional and, um, personal life. Because what I'm learning and, and devoting to in my personal life, it, like, enhances my professional- Mm, mm-hmm ... self as well. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. You have to keep feeding yourself. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm.

Beautiful. Well, Cash, we've covered a lot of topics today. I know, I know. I'm gonna take a deep breath with you again, so we'll take that together Um, I'll check in and see if there's anything else that you wanna share with the listeners Yeah, what's still coming up is how trauma reprocessing, deep trauma reprocessing work can lead to pleasure.

Mm. And I think that was a huge thing in my own life and a huge thing I see with clients is you can't fully experience the full depth and breadth of pleasure if you first haven't helped yourself reckon with what has happened to you. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And the ways that that can get in the way of seeking your pleasure and being consistent with your pleasure.

[01:16:28] Cash: Um, so I think that's just really important to note. Yeah. What comes to mind for me is the, uh, disconnects that happen with trauma and the way that we have to disconnect from our bodies or parts of our narrative, numb all of that, right? And so when we're not in that fully... That cat's trying to find her spot.

[01:16:48] Dr. Nicole: What are you doing? She's a part of the recording. She's late. I love her. She's seeking pleasure. Yeah, she is, and she gets to get it whenever she wants. She's a baby. Love to be a domesticated cat. Cat, exactly. Um, but yeah, when there's these parts that we're so numb from in our life where we can't even touch all of that, right?

Like, there's a level of bracing or disconnect or something. Yeah. And a huge aspect of surrender is to really feel-- Or a huge aspect of pleasure is to surrender, to feel, to be really present. Yeah. And so if there's something that you're numbing, you're blocking, you're disconnected from- Yeah ... there's an aspect of sensation of any kind.

This is why my tote bag that I made, the "Cry hard, come hard" tote ba- Like, it's like you have to be able to do both. You don't get to pick or choose which aspects you feel, right? And so if you're having a really hard time, like, getting into the crying space where all the trauma is, you're not gonna be able to get into that space with the pleasure either, right?

[01:17:49] Cash: Yeah. Yeah. I hope that for my clients and for others. I hope that for all of us. We're all in it together. Especially the ways it leads to dissociation. Mm-hmm. Dissociation can definitely get in the way of pleasure. Yeah. Because it's an easy off-ramp. Mm-hmm. It's a survival technique that a lot of us learned from childhood.

[01:18:06] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Uh, but it keeps us disconnected, and we have to learn coping skills- Mm-hmm ... in order to not dissociate as much. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. Because if we keep going off that highway exit for dissociation, yeah, that might give us like three miles in the tank. Mm. But if we learn- Right ... to take that other off-ramp to meditation or, um, healing the self or, uh, being more present, mindfulness- Mm-hmm

[01:18:32] Cash: or being with yourself in a day. Mm-hmm. That's gonna give us like 30 miles per gallon. Mm-hmm. So- Mm-hmm ... dissociation is a needed skill. It's like protecting a lot of us. Yeah. But also we have to learn to re-parent ourself and use these other different kind of coping skills in order to really get, um, like our vessel working as well as it can.

Mm-hmm. Which leads to the most amount of pleasure. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And at first when you open up that can, it's real intense. Of course. So, and some people won't in this lifetime. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty scary. So go dance. So go dance. Go dance with queers. Be cast me against. Well, yeah, yeah. Go dance with queers.

[01:19:14] Dr. Nicole: That's the word of advice, right? Uh, unless you're an asshole, please stay off the queer dance floor. Yeah. PSA. Yeah. Oh, gosh. Well, if it feels good to you, I've got us for their closing question. Love that. Okay. So the one question that I ask everyone on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:19:39] Cash: I wish more people knew that it's absolutely normal to have a psychedelic life naturally with no medicine usage, with no enhancing anything. If you live into your life things and you devote to your life and you find it to be sacred and special, take care of yourself and do that every day, it can lead you to ethereal things that your self would have never thought possible.

Mm-hmm. And I wish more people knew that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I've had some sex educators who were, like, way later in their life and they would tell me about the... You know, you're, you're speaking in the everyday sense, but especially in the sexual and the erotic realms, the levels of, like, mind-altering experiences they could get to.

[01:20:32] Dr. Nicole: And at first I was like, "There's no way it's like a psychedelic. There's no way." But the, the further I go down the path, the more respect I have for that statement. I'm like, yeah, I could... I see it now, you know? Me too. I was walking around Chicago today at 14 degrees. Oh yeah. And that, that was a psychedelic fucking experience.

[01:20:49] Cash: I was calling in my ancestors. I was praying. So cold. I was like, "Jesus." So really any day can be psychedelic. I literally ran to a class and it was so cold that my eyes were, like, watering. But it was so cold that I... It was like start- you know, it's almost freezing on your eyeballs as you're crying. Yeah.

[01:21:04] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. It's fascinating. That's a medicine journey right there. Who am I? Why am I here? What am I doing? Exactly. The same questions come through. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Oh gosh. Well, I'm sure everyone is wanting to know where can they find you, where can they connect with you? Please plug all your resources. Yeah. Yeah, the easiest way is gonna be Cashin' Around on Instagram.

[01:21:24] Cash: That's the easiest way. Or, um, cashinaround@gmail.com- Mm-hmm ... if you wanna email me directly. Great. Mm-hmm. I'll have all of that linked in the show notes below. So- All right ... thank you again, Cash, for this intimate experience. It's been a pleasure. Yep. Figuring out how to get here and- ... uh, do all this with you has been a great pleasure.

[01:21:42] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. It's such a joy. I don't get to record in person enough, so it's, it's much more tangible. Mm-hmm. It's really fun. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Dear listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Modern Anarchy. Thank you for sharing this episode with your friends, with your lovers, with your community. Truly, it means so much to me, and I am so grateful that you are here.

If you are wanting to release jealousy in your non-monogamous dynamics and step into compersion and pleasure-filled connection you can read my book, The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide for free on my website. There you will also find so many other free resources, including worksheets on how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non-monogamous dynamics and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure-filled sex and relationships.

So head on over to modernanarchypodcast.com to find all of those free resources and I look forward to seeing you next week