273. Erotic Authenticity: A Lesbian in a Mixed, Open Relationship – Cora Pearl

[00:00:00] Dr. Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Dr. Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Cora. Join us for a conversation exploring erotic authenticity. Together we talk about coming out later in life, finding belonging within ourselves, and doing the scary thing anyways because discomfort is part of the process. Oh. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.

I'm so delighted to have all of you listeners and pleasure activists tuning in from around the world for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Dr. Nicole. I'm a sex and relationship psychotherapist providing psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, author of The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide and the first study on relationship anarchy, and I teach students from around the world how to craft pleasurable sex lives and non-monogamous relationships.

Dear listener, it's never too late, right? Cora coming out later in life, later in her 50s. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Y'all, okay. I am so grateful when I run my groups, okay, I get to see folks from across generations. We've had people in their late 50s, their 60s, folks who are in their early 20s. And just the gratitude to know that it's never too late to align your life.

Sometimes you're like, "Ah, it's already slipped past me," right? It's already happened. But the more time you spend grieving that you've already missed out, you just keep staying in that space of not actually moving, moving towards alignment, moving towards the things that bring you pleasure, moving towards the connections, the people, the spaces, right?

And so it's just such a beautiful reminder that, dear listener, wherever you are in the world, hey, like it's not too late to change your life It is never too late to make an adjustment, right? And the more time that we spend thinking that, the less time we actually get into that movement and that change and that alignment.

And I'm just so grateful for Cora for trusting me, for sharing so vulnerably her story and, and what it means to be in a mixed open relationship as well, which, you know, people are always like, "Does it work? Ah." So it's powerful to have a story all about that and the joy and the beauty that Cora is exploring in her life.

So thank you, Cora. All right, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore all of my free resources and worksheets, my free e-book, my free dissertation, my free worksheets on pleasure, on non-monogamy, on relationships. All of that is at modernanarchypodcast.com, linked in the show notes below.

That is also where you will find all of the details about my upcoming non-monogamy group program. This is a 16-week group program for folks who are ready to grow, learn, expand in community. Exploring what it means to truly build pleasurable non-monogamous relationships. As an educator in this space, I've seen so many discussions of jealousy and jealousy and jealousy and jealousy, and how do we deal with jealousy?

And like, yes, that is an important part of it, but there are so many other skills. And what does it mean to come from a pleasure framework, y'all? A pleasure framework. Okay. You know, it's a bit different from the jealousy side. I wrote the psychedelic jealousy guide too, right? So I believe in coming from that side too, but there's a lot in the pleasure.

There's a lot in the pleasure. So yeah, if you wanna join my 16-week group program with me and students from around the world, A, all the details are linked in the show notes below. There is a hyperlink there. You can follow that, uh, schedule an info call with me, and we'll get started for this, this fall and the end of August.

And also thank you to all my Patreon supporters. Thank you for supporting the show for the last five years. I couldn't do it without you. And with that, dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love, and let's tune in to today's episode Dear listener, there's a space already waiting for you where you are invited to let go of every old script about sex and relationships and begin living a life rooted in your pleasure, empowerment, and deep alignment.

I'm Dr. Nicole, and this is your invitation to the Pleasure Liberation Groups, a transformative, educational, and deeply immersive experience designed for visionary individuals like you. Together, we'll gather in community to explore desire, expand relational wisdom, and embody the lives we're here to lead.

Each session is woven with practices, teachings, and the kind of connection that makes real transformation possible. And I'll be right there with you, guiding the process with an embodied curriculum that supports both personal and collective liberation. This is your invitation into the next chapter of your erotic evolution.

Say yes to your pleasure and visit modernanarchypodcast.com/pleasurepractice to apply.

And so the first question that I love to ask each guest on the show is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:05:52] Cora: Well, my name is Coco Henry, and I have a story a long-

[00:05:58] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:05:58] Cora: intense story of a lifetime journey of healing and growing and transforming and finding my way through some really difficult circumstances over and over and over again, sort of like a phoenix rising from the ashes.

[00:06:18] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. The pleasure liberation journey is not easy in this culture by any means.

[00:06:24] Cora: Mm-mm.

[00:06:25] Dr. Nicole: No, no. And so I'm so delighted to have you on the show today and get to share your story with all of the listeners, who I'm sure are gonna resonate.

[00:06:33] Cora: Thank you, Nicole.

[00:06:34] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. So Coco, I'm curious, when you first were growing up, what were the stories you heard about sex and relationships?

What was expected of you?

[00:06:46] Cora: My... Both my parents are, um, Eastern European and came to this country, um, my mom in her early 20s and my dad in his early 30s, and, um, they met here. And so as a first generation American, I grew up with that influence. And so they had, on the one hand, are, like, very open, like, these things are natural, um, you know, comfort, like, being na- naked around the house.

Like, there was a, there was a... I could tell different from, like, the people around me that had American families. Yeah. Um, but there was also this, like, s- sex is, like, you know, for procreation, and- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm ... it feels good. It's natural. Yeah It feels good. But it was very, like, in the physical realm only.

There, there was pretty much no acknowledgement of any other aspect to what sex is, and sexuality wasn't a thing. Like- Yeah ... there was... I didn't even... No, no idea what that meant.

[00:07:51] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so how did that form some of your early experiences in sexuality?

[00:08:00] Cora: Well, being a c- at the time closeted lesbian, I also had that Eastern European influence of you are there for the man, you're there for the- Mm-hmm

man's pleasure. You know, uh, that kind of, um, orientation to relationship. And of course it was men. Yeah. Um, so I, I, I liked the idea of love very much, and always had a very open heart. And so I think I felt like, okay, well, that's what you have to do to get love, so-

[00:08:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:08:35] Cora: I'll, I'll do that. Yeah. I'm just gonna do it really well, you know?

[00:08:38] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And so you said closeted. When do you first remember- hearing or having longings for queer connection. Was it conscious for you at the beginning there? When do you recall that?

[00:08:54] Cora: Uh, I'm older than I, I look. Yeah. I just turned 59 the other day. Mm-hmm. So I was coming of age in the '70s and '80s, and so there was no internet.

There was no- Yeah ... you know, nothing. It was, there were, there were three choices: You could be straight, you could be gay, or you could be bi. And if you were bi, it was 50/50, and then you had to choose- Mm ... which, you know, what your- Mm ... direction was. That was, that was my understanding, and that was- Mm-hmm ... a pretty, a cultural understanding in many ways, too.

Yeah. So yeah. So when I was exploring all of that, I, uh, like, y- young, like- I had no exposure to queer culture whatsoever Yeah None. Certainly not female queer culture.

[00:09:40] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:09:40] Cora: And, um, and I remember, but I did kiss a few girls- Yeah ... um, you know, young, and, um, kind of, like, got scared and didn't know what to make of it.

But, um, in high school there was a bunch of girls that there were rumors that they were doing things with each other, and I was scared. Mm-hmm. I was just like- ... "What's that?" I don't, I didn't know what to, I didn't know what to make of it. It was just like- Yeah ... it, it, like, hit me in such a strange place, and I think, I think I, I just couldn't, I couldn't deal with it at all.

And then when I was in college, I went to a school where there was a lot of queer culture, so that was my first, like, real exposure. And I don't really remember very well, like, how, like, how I got there, but I think at some point I cho- Like, I was like, "Oh, I'll be bisexual." Mm. "I'll choose that. That, that fits."

Yeah. And in that environment it was safe. Um, and I had some lovely experiences with women and, and young men at that time too. But at 19 I, I, I didn't really, like, come out in the way that I'm coming out now. Yeah. But, but I, if asked, would've definitely said bisexual.

[00:10:51] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:10:52] Cora: That was at 19. So from 19 to 58 was identifying as bisexual.

[00:10:58] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. And the environments that we're in play such crucial roles in terms of our comfort, and even often ability to even identify that aspect of ourselves. I know for myself with purity culture, I first felt some of my queer longings, what, in like fourth grade? Mm-hmm. There was a make-out scene between two women, and I felt something in my body, but it was so...

My consciousness was so deep within purity culture that I just thought of that as sinful and turned it away, right? And so I think that's why I asked that question of, when did the consciousness come on? I think some of us can have the desires, the longings, but no framework for it yet. And if you do have the framework, then that deeper question of, what is the community that you're in?

Is it even safe yet, right? So you're alluding to how important that college community was to really create the conditions for you to feel like you could bring this into your full lived identity in the public way.

[00:11:55] Cora: Yes, absolutely. And it, it was not safe in my family of origin. Yeah. I didn't, I didn't really feel like a n- a big need to be out or expressed in that way.

I had such bigger problems, really. It w- I, I come from a background of such severe trauma that, um, just i- so complex, just layers and layers of... The c- the trauma itself was so difficult. I'm talking about trauma of war here.

[00:12:28] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:28] Cora: Um, being raised by Holocaust survivors, and how that affected me. And so there was a lot to attend to first- Right

before being able to really tease apart and understand my sexual identity, which is why I come out at 58 as a lesbian, and not at 19 as a lesbian.

[00:12:50] Dr. Nicole: Right. Right.

[00:12:51] Cora: But so proud of my young self for-

[00:12:54] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:12:54] Cora: coming, for doing that much. Like, the difference right now, if I were coming out from straight to lesbian in my current life-

[00:13:00] Dr. Nicole: Mm

[00:13:01] Cora: versus bisexual to lesbian, it would be a very, very different situation. So, um, that's kind of a the- like, a theme of my journey and my story, was like somehow, some wise part of me- ... like, knew. It was like leaving a breadcrumb trail. Mm. It was the long game for me. Like, from-

[00:13:20] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:13:20] Cora: so young. Like-

[00:13:22] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:13:22] Cora: just, like, paying attention, and taking notes, and looking around, and, like, noticing, and noticing, and noticing, and, like, taking in a little bit more and a little bit more to, to stay intact and to stay, like, with my true self.

But had to put a lot of that into, like, a very secret black box somewhere far away- Yeah ... deep inside myself.

[00:13:44] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. When there are other conditions that are more stressful, trauma, different systemic situations that people are going through, it's the classic, um, hierarchy of needs. We just don't really have capacity to even access these areas of ourselves when we're trying to survive with the necessities, right?

And so I'm curious, when you look back on that journey, you're, you're alluding to the wisdom of pleasure, right? It's always speaking to us. Mm. It's always bringing us towards deeper authenticity. What words of wisdom and advice would you say to your younger self, who is beginning this journey?

[00:14:21] Cora: Oh. Boy, that's a great question.

Yeah. I would Say, "Oh, you sweet thing. You, you sweet thing, this... You were in an impossible situation. You are doing the only thing you could do to get through this. You keep going. Keep going. You're gonna get there."

[00:14:44] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. It's

[00:14:45] Cora: gonna take a while but I, I feel like I did the best thing I could to survive.

[00:14:51] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:14:51] Cora: And to survive intact. Like, you know, the, the pain and the survival was that, um... So I'm raised by these people who are completely traumatized-

[00:15:04] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:15:05] Cora: and from World War II, from being Holocaust survivors, from mo- you know, immigrating to a whole other country as adults and-

[00:15:14] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:15:14] Cora: starting life all over again.

And they, they did the best they could with what they had, but it wasn't a time where they could really, like, get support or people were talking about trauma and, and- You're

[00:15:26] Dr. Nicole: right ...

[00:15:27] Cora: the nervous system and- Yeah ... all these things, you know? Uh- Absolutely ... and, and it j- wasn't in their mentality to do that. And so how did they survive?

How did they cope and manage? Um, my father specifically did so through, um, embracing the philosophy of Ayn Rand- Mm ... of objectivism, and that's, uh, like, heavy-duty capitalist teaching, and it's all about the mind, and morality, and, and very similar to, to purity culture, like when I hear stories about that, I think there's some overlap there.

[00:16:06] Dr. Nicole: Okay.

[00:16:06] Cora: And for sure overlap of, of cults. Like, this was a, a kind of a cult. It was an independent cult. Like, it was just our little family of four. I have a, a brother, and that's it, and I also both my parents are only children, so I don't have- Mm-hmm ... any aunts, uncles, or cousins.

[00:16:25] Dr. Nicole: Interesting. Yeah.

[00:16:26] Cora: So it's like I was kind of plopped into the world from nowhere, so I don't speak their language, their original language.

I've never been to Poland. I don't know anything about, or very little about Polish culture. Judaism was complicated. Um, they acknowledged themselves as cultural Jews, but there was, like, total, like, um, e- evangelical atheism.

[00:16:52] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:52] Cora: Uh, so there was no spiritual life. Mm. Um, there was no community. There was no, like, even watching of group sports.

It was, like, tennis or ice skating or s- Mm ... like, this really extreme, like, individualism.

[00:17:05] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:07] Cora: So extreme. So I got this message on the one hand of just, like, be your own person, think for yourself, like, very directly given those messages. And then on top of that was the truth, which was think for yourself, but like us.

Mm. Like, basically it needs to look like this. Yeah. And so anything that slipped out or was different from that would be criticized, judged. I would be gaslit. I would be scapegoated. And it's these just layers on top of each other, one after another, after another, all the time.

[00:17:39] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:17:39] Cora: All the time.

[00:17:40] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:17:40] Cora: And so that's why I would say that to my little self.

Yeah. Like, honey, like, how... That's fucking impossible.

[00:17:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:17:50] Cora: And, and so it was like I just learned very quickly, like, what to keep hidden, and hiding was a real ethic in that family because not only were they Holocaust s- survivors, my father, what was, what is known as a hidden child, which means he wasn't in concentration camps.

He was literally in hiding, in a closet, in an attic, in some other space, and sometimes alone, sometimes with a parent, sometimes with a stranger, endlessly. For, for, I mean, it ended up being four years, and those ages, 7 to 11, that's developmentally so significant- Yeah, huge ... to not be in, around any other children or teachers or anything, and to just what, you know, and what the imagination is like at that age.

And so just what he had to do to survive, like, you just have to do whatever you have to do. So I both at once feel like- pain and anger and sadness for how all of that affect me, affected me. At the same time, so much compassion and understanding for why. Like, it's both. It's both, and I, I've learned through a lot of hard work- Yeah

and internal, you know, examination and learning about all kinds of healing modalities, um, how to do that- Mm ... for real. Like, that, that wasn't always true. There was a long, long periods of anger. There was, um, long periods of self-suppression and making him right and me wrong- Mm ... and, you know. So I've been through it all, but that environment, um, made it so difficult-

[00:19:39] Dr. Nicole: Yeah

[00:19:39] Cora: to trust myself. Mm. So it was like... Or, or knowing what's true and what's real, and I- I've had to do q- quite a lot of work to, to, to feel like I belong to myself. I- I've lived most of my life- Mm ... with this feeling like I don't belong to myself.

[00:19:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:19:58] Cora: I don't belong to myself, and, and, and for so many reasons, like kind of walking around through life like, "Is this right?

Is this the right way to be?" Mm. "Is that... What am I supposed to say? Is this the right thing? Am I supposed to do that?" Yeah, so to have arrived in a place where that has quieted down to, like nothing-

[00:20:17] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:20:17] Cora: feels miraculous to me and feels like freedom that I did not know existed.

[00:20:25] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. I'm so happy that you're there- Yeah, me too

and continuing to explore what that there means.

[00:20:32] Cora: I feel like I'm at the beginning of my life- Yeah. ... you know, on a certain level.

[00:20:37] Dr. Nicole: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. The humble beginner's mindset for a lifetime. There's always, there's always more. And so I can imagine, you know- That ability to know who you are, that's exceptionally difficult in such a complicated area because of the cultures that we live in around sexuality, right?

This... If you're already struggling with knowing who you are generally, in this area that has so many scripts, so many expectations, it's even harder, which is why I love the work that I do because it's truly-

[00:21:09] Cora: Mm ...

[00:21:10] Dr. Nicole: life-changing, and I don't mean that in the most, you know, over-selly, dramatic way. Like, it actually is life-changing when you're able to really be with your body, know what your desires are, know how to communicate them, and then know how to connect with others in that.

That is life-changing work, and it does come back to that erotic connection that we have with folks. And so what was the biggest turning point for you to be able to really step into that? I know you mentioned college, right? We're there. We're connecting with the group of the other people who are making it safe to be who you are.

What were some of the big turning points you experienced?

[00:21:47] Cora: Well, it's, uh, I... It's not a easy answer because I, the, another really big part of my story is that this background that I just explained of my upbringing, um, resulted in serious mental illness for me.

[00:22:01] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Yeah.

[00:22:02] Cora: So I was grappling with that. Mm. So I was in a fragmented state for most of my life.

I finally got diagnosed and treated at age 45. Mm. So up until that time, I was doing the best I could with- Uh, yeah, like a very, and a very inter- because of that hiding culture and because of the environment that I grew up in, all my distress would tend to go inward- Mm ... in, deep, deep inside. So I was struggling emotionally, mentally, like, all the time, and found these touchstones along the way.

I guess these are sort of turning points. They're not... They're sort of early, early roots- Yeah, of course ... of the fi- you know, where it finally became, like, about my sexuality. Right. But, um, but I raised three children and homeschooled them for almost 17 years, and worked as a professional organizer for a while, and d- did all these different things.

And, like, wherever I could find health or, or, like, self-expression in a safe way, like, I went all out. Mm. I would just go, you know, as, as full as I could. But if, if I look back now, I feel like my life was very much in pieces or in parts and fragments. Like, it wasn't one cohesive whole of a, of a person or a life in, in many ways.

So, and I, and I was always working on myself. Mm, mm-hmm. Like, from, from the moment I realized that was a thing that a person could do- Mm. Mm-hmm ... it was like, like, you know, um, like the New Age movement in the '80s- Yeah ... just really hit me hard. I had like every book and- Yeah ... um, you know, discovered the joy and power of ritual and int- intuition and, and- Mm-hmm

psychic abilities. And all those things were just like, this exists. 'Cause I grew up in this- Yeah ... like, such a rigid environment of, um, obedience and, and masculine values- Mm ... and old-fashioned values. Mm. Like,

[00:24:08] Dr. Nicole: this

[00:24:08] Cora: Eastern European, you know, mentality. And yeah, so I really, I really, like, in a lot of ways had to raise myself because they're- Mm.

Like, interdependence was not valued. It was considered a moral failing-

[00:24:25] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[00:24:25] Cora: to ask for help or have emotions. Or spirituality was for stupid people. Like, any- anything that I brought that was genuine would just be shut down so hard.

[00:24:36] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:24:37] Cora: Yeah. And not just, like, not acknowledged, but actually, like, obliterated.

Like- Wow ... like torn apart. And that, and that just would feel... Yeah, so, so, so... Sorry, I lost my train of

[00:24:51] Dr. Nicole: thought a little bit. No. No, I mean- Yeah ... it's, this is... I mean, I, I am imagining how hard it was then to connect to your erotic self with all this.

[00:25:01] Cora: Ye- the... Beyond. It, it was- Yeah ... it was, it was shut down. It was...

I had what you could call, um, erotic anesthesia. Mm. Like, I didn't- I didn't even know what I was missing because- Mm-hmm ... yes, in the hierarchy of needs, like it was so low down. Yeah. It was just, I was just trying to like get a grip and- Yeah ... and keep it together and keep going with like this tremendous amount of internal suffering all the time.

And, um, and so Yeah, just like s- sexuality was not... I, I remember thinking, like, the ba- how the back of the mind, like, kind of throws forth a thought every- Mm-hmm ... now and then, especially when you're closeted. I, I- Yeah ... bet there are so many closeted people who could relate to this- Mm ... especially after they come out.

Like, oh, that little voice that said this little thing. And, you know, and it would say, one of the things it would say was, oh, like, if it was about sexuality, it'd be like, "Oh, that's... I don't get to have that."

[00:26:00] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Like,

[00:26:01] Cora: I don't get to have that. And, and like that matter of fact, just this- Right ... like, pure acceptance of like, when I look back, I, I think it was that feeling of like I'm so glad somebody can do this.

I'm so glad there are people who can do this for themselves. Like, I don't get to do that, but, but- Yeah ... I'm so glad for them. And like that, just such acceptance of I don't get to do that. Yeah. It wasn't like- Yeah, yeah,

[00:26:23] Dr. Nicole: yeah ...

[00:26:24] Cora: a anger or longing or anything. Mm. It was just like- Mm, mm-hmm ... a sh- a kind of all across the board shutdown.

Part of why it took so long to get diagnosed with illness was because I was highly functional Mm ... in a lot of ways. Like- Right ... externally so, um, and, you know, doing a great job. And then-

[00:26:44] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:26:45] Cora: but inside, just, you know, other things. Yeah.

[00:26:48] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, which is some of the hardest times to diagnose, right?

Or really identify when we can really perform under capitalism, but not necessarily be finding pleasure or joy or peace in the internal. And so when you were in this chapter of your life, were you in a monogamous context? What's your relational world looking like?

[00:27:10] Cora: Mm-hmm. Um, I met my male, I would describe hetero queer um, partner in college.

Young. Yeah. We were very young. And then this was, like, shortly after I had had some same-sex experiences. You know, I had already kind of figured out, um, or like decided I was bisexual.

[00:27:32] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:33] Cora: And, um, I met him, and it was this, like, really profound, deep connection. It wasn't exactly lustful. Mm-hmm. Like, it wasn't...

It, it was spiritual, really- Mm ... in, in the, in the end, and it was our... We shared... Our Venn diagram of, of shared values is h- is highly overlapping. We come from similar backgrounds. We're the same age. We come from the same part of the country.

[00:28:01] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:28:01] Cora: We met at this college together, so there were, we're both m- musicians and artists.

[00:28:06] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:28:07] Cora: Um, there, there was just a lot of shared unusual- shared things. And it, there was this feeling of recognition, like I f- felt like when I met him, it felt like I was at, I felt I was at home when we were together. And I f- and these were the, these were the two things that made me feel like I wanna spend my life with you.

[00:28:31] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:28:31] Cora: I feel like I'm at home when I'm with you, and I loved, I loved the person I became in his presence. Mm. I love what our connection brought out of me.

[00:28:41] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:42] Cora: So we ended up getting married q- quite young. I was 23, and he was 24. And, um, we preceded that engagement by, um, we graduated from college, and we traveled across the country in a ti- a tiny little- Yeah

car.

[00:29:00] Dr. Nicole: Cute.

[00:29:00] Cora: Um, and like, we're together, like, all the time. Yeah. And so we did all the fighting and all the talking.

[00:29:05] Dr. Nicole: Mm. And

[00:29:06] Cora: at the end of that we thought, well, either this in- relationship is so te- intense, either we should break up or, or like e- get engaged. And so- Mm ... we decided

[00:29:17] Dr. Nicole: to get engaged. Yeah. What a dichotomy.

[00:29:19] Cora: Um, and when we, and then we did... You know, we spent... The thing we cared about the most in planning the wedding, I wasn't one of these, like, dreaming about weddings gir- like, I, that wasn't my culture. I didn't- Yeah ... I didn't really have any ex- actually, the first wedding I ever went to was my own, so I had- Mm.

[00:29:36] Dr. Nicole: Okay.

[00:29:36] Cora: Wow ... no, no, um, n- no real- Sure ... expectations. But the thing that was the most important to both of us was the vows.

[00:29:46] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Yeah.

[00:29:46] Cora: And we spent, like, six months writing the vows together word by word, c- absolutely crafting this, you know, with the understanding, um, that we, there was a lot we couldn't know, and that- Mm

if we're looking to be together for a lifetime, like, we have to build that into the vows- Mm ... because we can't know what we don't know. Right. And so the vows are beautiful, and they stand- Mm ... true, and we have repeated them to each other many times since. And they allow for the kind of experience we're having now as a, I'm gonna say this, I'm learning how to say this in one sentence, as a spiritually based, growth oriented, mixed orientation, open relationship.

[00:30:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Beautiful.

[00:30:34] Cora: Of 37 years now.

[00:30:35] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. What a journey, and ongoing.

[00:30:42] Cora: Yes.

[00:30:42] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:43] Cora: Yes. So that would have never expected- Yeah ... to be where I am now or where we are. And, um, it's very much a work in progress, but, um, enough in progress to be able to talk about it-

[00:30:58] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:30:58] Cora: publicly for the first time.

[00:31:00] Dr. Nicole: Yes. Here you are. We can enjoy all the messiness, the magic of our humanness here in this space. Uh, and I know the things that we share are things that so many other people will resonate with. Mm-hmm. Just the vulnerability of what it's like to be always evolving, messing up, growing, learning. And so when you say mixed orientation open relationship, what does that mean for you and your partner?

[00:31:25] Cora: Um, well, we started off monogamous for- Yeah ... many, many years, and he knew that I was bisexual. He knew that the truth was, you know, even though I, I felt because of the times and my limited exposure and knowledge, like, "Okay, I have to choose. I've chosen man. I don't know what happens to this attraction for women."

There was not... It wasn't a world where you could be married to a man and have s- g- queer culture y- any way or-

[00:31:55] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, yeah ...

[00:31:55] Cora: a- and I know being bisexual it's really, can be really hard to be as- in a straight-facing relationship and feel like you qualify to be in a queer space or to feel comfortable in a queer space.

Like, so hard. It's so hard. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I hope that changes. I hope that is changing. Mm-hmm. I hope that women who are part- you know, monogamously partnered with a man but are attracted to women have some way of, of feeling that daily in their lives. Because otherwise, people just will assume that. I mean, I'm in that situation, too.

I'm in a straight-facing relationship. So yeah, there needs to be more room, which is one of the main reasons I'm on this podcast today- Yeah ... which is to just, like, offer, like, here's an example. Here's an example that I needed that I didn't see, but if there... And I'm sure I'm not alone, um, so, you know, th- those people need to know, like, you can, you can c- create it from scratch.

You can make it up. Yeah. You can throw away all the scripts- Yeah ... and figure out how to do it yourself. But it is har- but it is hard. It is absolutely hard to do without- Mm-hmm ... kind of a

[00:33:02] Dr. Nicole: peace plan. Yeah, I mean, this is a huge part of my dissertation research with relationship anarchy. When you throw away all the scripts of relationships, and that includes, uh, the best attempts we can have at, uh, erasing the unconscious ones, 'cause damn, you know, you, you throw out the, the paint by numbers, but it's still in the unconscious, in- Mm-hmm

the longings and the fears and the things that we have. And so when you give yourself your best shot at doing that, releasing it, which again is a lifelong practice, we'll do it- Mm ... till we die, that brings you into the space of the artist moment, where you truly are painting the rest of your life, and it's no longer a paint by numbers.

It's a blank canvas, and that can be really overwhelming because it's like, "Well, what do I do over... What do- uh, where, ah. Ah, like I used to have this clear vision, and now it's I got, I've got all of the options?" And so I, I find it so beautiful how the abundance, you know, it's abundance of joy, but everything has a light and a dark, so right there is the fear of the abundance also at that same time.

And so it sounds like for you, you've really done a lot of that work in your partnership, of throwing off the scripts and getting to design your own connection. And so when you're first- Having to, when you're first wanting this sort of change in your dynamic, do you bring it up? Does he bring it up? What does that conversation look like?

Does it go well? Mine certainly didn't when I first, w- stepped into this world. Like, how did it go for the two of you?

[00:34:35] Cora: It was very organic. I think- Okay ... our story is unusual that way. It wasn't one person really bringing it to the other. Mm. It was more like- So as I talked about before, this, like, erotic amnesia, like, I had w- as long as that was in place, I, I was just kind of e- I, I was, didn't feel like I was missing anything.

I didn't- Right ... really, you know, I, I was living that life. And then what our, the, um, pandemic happened and our kids left the nest, and a little bit more, uh, suddenly than planned because of- Mm ... of just how that affected things.

[00:35:11] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:35:12] Cora: So, um, w- it was suddenly just the two of us after 27 years. Wow. And, um, but in the, in the pandemic, so it was like it ju- it was just like time for reevaluation or it was just, it was like we don't have to be together in the same way that having kids inspires you to keep going in that direction.

And we were committed, and it wasn't like there was, we were questioning that, except the sexuality piece was just starting to rise to the surface- Mm-hmm ... more. I had started to spend time in, in an online queer space, um, re- related to the pandemic, like support and, and there was a, a queer meeting. And I was like, "Oh, I, I, I guess I'm queer.

I'll just, I'll just..." It was like a no- Yeah ... it, there was no thought behind it. It was like I just- Mm ... found myself in a queer space as a queer person for the first time. And then that was, like, where I first felt like, ooh, I'm embarrassed to share that I'm partnered with a man. I tried to, like, keep that on the DL- Yeah, sure, sure

as long as I could. And, um, but I was like, you know, really it was a, a really good, safe way to, um, feel my own queerness in my own home. You know, I could click off. I could whatever, you know, just feel what it was like to be in that space. So that was kind of one thing that started some forward motion in that area.

And then I think we were just having honest conversations about, like, I remember just casually saying one time, like, "You know, if there's things that you want to experience sexually that I can't, um, provide, you know, I'd be open to, like, just finding ways to explore that." Like a, like a very, like, low-key, like, just tossing that out.

Yeah. And then I think then there was another low-key and another low-key thing, and then as we started to really address it more directly and experience, like, the fact that I was a closeted lesbian the whole time, and that's gonna show up in all kinds of ways.

[00:37:09] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:37:09] Cora: Um, he, he kind of outed me from the outside in really is where that started, and I, I had a lot of work to do-

[00:37:20] Dr. Nicole: Yeah

[00:37:20] Cora: um, to, to really come out from the inside out. So there was basically from that first, like, queer online meeting to being out was about four years. And four really intense, you know, confronting compulsory heto- heterosexuality, confronting internalized homophobia. I was so at odds with myself. I mean, I did, like- Mm

there was a little period during those four years where I was trying to do, like, conversion therapy on myself. Oh,

[00:37:50] Dr. Nicole: wow. No way. Damn.

[00:37:52] Cora: Like, this can't, like, push it down harder. Push it, like the more I saw it- Yeah ... the more I pushed it down, and that didn't work, and I... And then, oh, and so the thing that really kind of blew it open was lesbian TikTok.

[00:38:05] Dr. Nicole: Mm. Um- I love this for you. Amazing.

[00:38:09] Cora: So yeah, sure, sure. Me and, like, you know, thousands of other closeted lesbians- Yeah ... who are like, "Oh, shit." Like, how does the algorithm know before I do? You're like, "Stop."

[00:38:22] Dr. Nicole: You looked for too many seconds and it knew. It was like, boom.

[00:38:26] Cora: I mean, really, like, it was quite stunning.

Like, I, so I, why was I even on TikTok? It was, you know, I feel like, you know, with three grown kids, like, I wanna know their world. Oh, sure. I wanna know what, what they're looking at. I wanna, you know, even if I don't, like, fully participate, I wanna be aware. So that was my thinking. I was like, "TikTok, everybody's talking about TikTok."

Mm. Let me go check that out and see what they're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. And then, and so within no time at all- ... like, my feed was 75% lesbian stuff. And

[00:39:02] Dr. Nicole: I was like,

[00:39:02] Cora: could not get enough of it. Yeah. Could not get enough, and it was like, uh, and, and, and queer stuff as well and, and I was j- I, since whenever that day was till now, have watched thousand, tens of thousand, I mean, so many.

I was just like- Yeah ... it was like lifeblood. I just- Good ... couldn't get enough.

[00:39:20] Dr. Nicole: Yes.

[00:39:21] Cora: And, and was just, like- something was resonating. Something was like, I felt alive. I felt like I can understand what these women are saying or, and I was terrified. And then I was like s- I mean, I went through like a, a pa- excruciatingly painful year of those- Mm

four years where I couldn't even write in my own journal. Like, I was too scared to see any words on paper or to admit these things to myself. I was, I was, I was so stuck. I was really doing everything I could to, like, push it away and not think about it, and yet it was bubbling up all the time. And, and then I had to, like, I had to create a, like a pressure valve because it was- Mm

just too much. And I, um, so I created in my head, I created Queer Town.

[00:40:13] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:40:14] Cora: And, um, Queer Town was a place inside of me where I could give myself permission to engage with this part of myself.

[00:40:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:40:24] Cora: And just, like, with... Because I was dealing with mind control. This is a big, like, sort of lost my way earlier but what I wanted- Mm-hmm

to share about my upbringing, this response, the way that my father dealt with his own trauma was to embrace this really extreme philosophy and then just shove it down our throats. And-

[00:40:45] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:40:45] Cora: I, it was really coercive mind control. I was, I, my, my mind was not my own, and I was not allowed to think my own thoughts- Mm

in my own way. And so it, it was, it was really tight. It was really- Yeah ... it, I really had to deprogram myself to come out. And it's not so easy when it's this weird specific philosophy and living in a cult of four people, and, like, there's no help group specifically for this. And so I, I feel like my... If you put my story into a movie, m- the...

I comp- like, the exact story of my experience is The Shawshank Redemption.

[00:41:26] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:41:27] Cora: I was the guy that was falsely put into prison, made prison as nice as he possibly could while he was there, paid a lot of attention, made some good connections, and chip, chip, chip, chip, just chipping away at that hole.

[00:41:43] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:43] Cora: And, like, that, that was my experience.

And so I had to free my mind to be able to free my sexuality.

[00:41:54] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:41:54] Cora: And that's a hard job at- Oh,

[00:41:56] Dr. Nicole: yeah ...

[00:41:56] Cora: you know, 50-something years old. And and so... But it was a lot. I was chipping away since I was a child, just really doing that. And so Queer Town was a really big kind of ex- explosion in that deprogramming process, 'cause I made a space.

[00:42:15] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:42:16] Cora: Just 'cause I couldn't stand... I felt like I was gonna explode if I didn't- Mm ... do that. And so I made this space for myself, and then eventually Queer Town, little... like a year or so later, turned into Lesbian Town- Ah ... where I was like, "You can be a lesbian."

[00:42:31] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:42:33] Cora: And that was, that was, like, big liberation just in- internally with myself.

And then I also, um... part of w- the process of, of deprogramming and coming alive and coming into myself in these ways was moving from the mandate that I was raised with for conclusive, what I've labeled as conclusive thinking.

[00:42:57] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:42:58] Cora: Where, like, you know, be in any situation, your options for expressing yourself were total f- confidence, whether you had it or not, like, with, with backup explanations- Mm

or hide.

[00:43:12] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:43:13] Cora: That was it. There was nothing in between. And so for, like, so extreme, black and white, black and white- Yeah ... thinking. And so that's no way to live. That's so, u- ugh, it's so claustrophobic to your creativity and- Yeah ... your sense of self and all these things. And so, I... once I identified conclusive thinking as a massive, like, through line through my, my mental experience, I could start to dismantle it because I could see it and I could name it.

[00:43:43] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[00:43:44] Cora: And so from this realization about conclusive thinking, I welcomed and developed what I called gradational thinking.

[00:43:53] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:43:53] Cora: Pondering, musing, considering, imagining, wondering- Yeah ... on and on. Like, all of that's allowed. It's allowed. Yeah.

[00:44:02] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:44:04] Cora: And as a teacher and as a mother, I, I've been, was able to teach that to other people before I could give that to myself even.

Sure. I was, like, you know, very sensitive to... Like, I, I for the longest time felt like, well, I ca- I don't, you know, save yourselves kind of energy. Like, I can help you. Like, you'll be s- I, it's too late for me. Yeah. I mean, I'm trying. Yeah. But, but I have a lot of information to, like, help, help, help you. And so that was developed externally in that way, but then I put it on myself.

And so when I developed gradational thinking and permission for that, that's what led to Queer Town, which led to Lesbian Town- Mm ... which led to, like, you know, c- coming out. But it- Right ... it was a, a long, hard journey, and a, a very unlikely one really. Mm-hmm. And especially being in a relationship where the bones are good, the connection is real, it's deep, it's not...

It, my partner is not a very typical man. We're both artists. He's, um, very, like, mycelial minded- Mm-hmm ... and pretty psychedelic person, highly- Yeah ... neurodivergent. Like, we're, you know, we're just two freaks Yeah. That understand each other, um, in the best of ways. And so the, the... And we've survived, like these phoenixes rising from the ashes, from- Like, crisis after crisis Mm

like, really, like, u- unbelievable this story. It reads like a Forrest Gump kind of- Mm ... uh, experience when you get into all the, the tangents of, like, the things that have happened.

[00:45:48] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:45:48] Cora: And, and that we've, like, come out together the stronger for. Yeah. So, you know, if you discover or, or realize that you're a lesbian i- in a, in a s- straight-facing relationship, you know, what is the protocol?

Get a divorce. That's what you do. Mm-hmm. That's what everyone does, or most people do, and it just... So it kept me stuck for a long time- Yeah ... because I, I don't want a different life. I... And this is my, my family, my partner, my... We share so many things together.

[00:46:20] Dr. Nicole: Yep.

[00:46:21] Cora: And I'm a lesbian, and, and- Yeah ... and he loves lesbians.

Yeah. Not, not in a fetish way, but in a, like, real s- like, sapphophile way. Like, he's- Mm ... always gotten along with lesbians, and-

[00:46:32] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:46:32] Cora: really sees a sacredness around women loving women. Mm-hmm. And so we've, like... We're... We've never been better- Mm ... oddly enough. Like, the, the kind of communication that's been needed to get to a place of harmony and, and, um, opening of the relationship- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

in this really, like, profound way, we've really done the work, and we've always done the work. Yeah. That's the thing, too. It's like this is a, this is a partnership where we've, we've, we've put in thousands and thousands and thousands of hours of conversation about- Yeah ... this relationship. So I just can't...

It's like I... So I s- here I sit with you in this place of multiplicity, of I love this human, we are partners, we've been through so much together. He's a man. That's complicated, and I'm a lesbian, and I really want to be expressed as a lesbian and know this part of myself for real. And, and so talk about, you know, relationship anarchy, like we're inventing it.

Like-

[00:47:43] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:47:44] Cora: we are making all the rules, and we're deciding like what this means. And the, the good news for us is that our whole life has been like that. Mm. We have not been, uh, lived any kind of life that would be, uh, recognizable, like t- typically. Like, we, we've always lived outside of the box- Yeah ... and we've always made it up, so we have a long hist- even our, raising our children and educating our children, we did that ourselves.

So there's a lot of, um, creativity inherent in our connection, and desire for truth, and healing, and honesty, and beauty, and authenticity. So we're, we're adjusting. And, and, you know- Yeah ... there's not a, a lot... Like, you know, if somebody, if a couple's been together for as long as we have, 37 years, or 50 years, or 60 years, it's like this big accomplishment and congratulations.

Mm. Which on the one hand it absolutely is, but like is that the prize? Is that the prize that you get for just... You know, and I'm sure there are many truly happy partnerships that are long-term like that, but I would guess that those, those that are satisfying are the ones where the people grew and let the relationship- Yeah.

Exactly ... evolve and-

[00:49:02] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:49:03] Cora: e- encouraged it to evolve. Mm-hmm. And so this is just how ours has evolved, and it kind of fit . It, it fits the complexity of the life we've lived. It's, you know, I don't know if I like would choose it exactly, like from the outside in, but there's a lot of opportunity in this situation to To, to be so authentic and to be so real because there's n- there is no script to follow-

[00:49:33] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:34] Cora: Mm-hmm ... with this.

[00:49:34] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, there are so many people who are in relationships that are miserable, unhappy, and they hit that milestone, and often that, I feel like, comes from a value of, uh, the effort that you've put, the commitment. Like, even though I'm, I'm unhappy, I'm still committed to this person.

And for, you know, the beginning of marriage was not a romantic institution. It was a legal institution on passing down of property, and historically controlling women as part of that property, right? And so the ideas of marriage and romance and, and joy and all of that was often separated to the lover outside of the marriage, right?

And it was only very recently in our culture that we've brought those things together, and there's still a lot of people who come from that script and say, like, you know, it's, it's the comedy scenes you see all the time in stand-up where they're like, "I hate my husband, but what are you gonna do?" You know?

And so it's, it's such an interesting space that, that people exist in, but if their values are commitment- Then there it is, right? And, and I, I love what you're speaking to, which is how can we be committed both to ourselves and the relationship, and that is gonna ebb and flow over the years, right? You couldn't have predicted that you'd be in this space in any way, shape, or form.

And also, you're creating scripts outside of the norm. Like you said, a lot of people have... It's very, it's very common to have a situation like this where, um, one person identifies that they have, they're queer and they wanna explore all of that. And you're right, often a lot of people hit that moment.

They're like, "Oh, I guess we gotta divorce. I ha- guess we have to separate." At times it can be really, really dark. People won't speak to each other. It can be real- You know, this is why I love working with couples in that space of, like, how do we build the security so that you can continue this relationship in a new way?

Which often involves a lot of grief, because if you had a vision of what the next 20, 40, 50, whatever years looked like, you gotta grieve that that is no longer happening and show up in the present moment, which is what is unfolding right here right now. Okay, what's the new storyline? And so that is such a difficult process for people, and so I, I'm, I'm really grateful that you're here speaking to the possibility of that, because when you're...

Our psychology, right, w- we exist in relationship to other people. There's the individual that exists, but the s- feminist movement would, would always talk about it as the self in relation, right? The words I'm using right now were created from Anglo-Saxons, blah blah blah blah blah blah. I had teachers who taught me, right?

Like, I am a living, breathing culmination of all of that, right? So every one of us is breathing in our independence as well as our interdependence, right? And so when you're stepping into something like TikTok, right, you're getting that space where you're seeing all of these other lesbians bringing you their energy, their concepts, their ideas, and we start to integrate the voices of the people that are around us, good, bad, or otherwise.

So be careful you know? Yes. Like, those negative voices, we really wanna be careful. Who are they? Yes. Do I want that close? Maybe not. Got it. Um, but you're on TikTok. You're taking all that in, right? And so you're getting new ways. It's why I'm so passionate about this podcast, because I know I get listeners who write in from, like, rural Iowa, and they're like, "I have no queer community."

And I'm like, "I'm so grateful that you can tune into conversations like this and know that another way is possible when you don't see it in your streets or in the people there," right? 'Cause that's where the suffering comes, when you're like, "No one else is like this. No one's ever had this before. I'm so broken.

I'm so wrong." And then you hear one other person tell that story, and you're like, "Wait." ah, there's community here, and then we start to feel normal in that. And so for you to come here into this space, right, you're telling another story of what's possible in terms of it doesn't have to end in divorce. You can have grounded conversations.

And that's not to say there was probably conflict and days of crying. I could imagine lots of complexity.

[00:53:35] Cora: Oh, yes. Oh, yes, yes. We... There was the, the, the raging anger months. There was the, like, crying every day month. You know, we've gone through all these phases. Oh. But, um, you know, one thing that... the thing really that, that helped us tremendously, I must make a plug for the amazing Dr.

Joli Hamilton- Oh,

[00:53:59] Dr. Nicole: yes ...

[00:53:59] Cora: um, who-

[00:53:59] Dr. Nicole: My

[00:54:00] Cora: mentor, yes. Yeah, she's amazing, and, um, her podcast is Playing with Fire, and, um, you can find out more about her there. But if, uh, I w- must, for anyone who is in a situation similar to mine or anyone who is wanting to open their relationship in a really, like, thorough, self-responsible, honoring of the relationship kind of way, her process, uh, of a year-long program- I know

meeting every single week in community was a game changer for us. We were ready. Like, we were ready for her medicine, and it made all the difference because I, I think that's another reason why, uh, people in a situation like mine do end up in divorce is because it's very nuanced. Like, how do... especially if you've been together decades.

Yeah. How do you, how do you dismantle, you know, or, or shift a lifetime of relating in a certain way to a whole other way, w- you know? Yeah. And so some of the things that she... you know, that would be good for any couple, not just someone who wants to open, but, you know, uh, teasing apart enmeshment versus differentiation, and really, like, you know, working through that, and, um, identifying desires and your own desires, and really, like...

There are so many wonderful things, and that was a... like, showed up at, at the exact moment we needed it, and we were voracious, um, learners in that environment- Yeah ... and continue to be. And, um, that, that was essential. I don't know, I don't know where we'd be without- Right ... that teaching and those tools for-

[00:55:42] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm

[00:55:43] Cora: um, having really hard conversations- Yeah ... and dismantling defensiveness, and w- really having, um, healthy repair protocols for rupture and difficulties. And we've been practicing and practicing- Mm-hmm ... and practicing, and so- Applying it to all kinds of situations, not just opening of the relationship. And that, and that's why I say, like, our relationship has never been better because one of the advantages of being in a, in a non-traditional relationship structure is that you, you kind of...

you have to work at this level of, of detail and-

[00:56:20] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[00:56:20] Cora: diligence and skills building and transition skills and hinge skills and all... oh my gosh, so many things. Yes. But we were already intuitively doing a lot of them over the years. So it was, it was also validating to meet, um, Ken and Joli. Her, Ken, uh, Joli's partner is also on the podcast and part of her teaching environment, and, like, it was, like, a recognition of, like, "Oh, these folks,"

[00:56:46] Dr. Nicole: Yeah

[00:56:46] Cora: these are relationship warriors. We're relationship warriors. Let's see what we

[00:56:51] Dr. Nicole: can learn here. Yeah.

[00:56:52] Cora: And so- Mm-hmm ... like, you know, I mean, for, for... we're learning how to have shorter conversations now, but for many years, like, we could easily have a 10-hour, 14-hour conversation about our communication, our relating.

Totally. You know? So we've gotten... yeah, we've just trimmed down, trimmed things down and learned how- ... to do it better. But, um, yeah. So that's been a, a really huge piece of how do you forge a path that doesn't yet exist?

[00:57:21] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes, many hour-long conversations. And it can be so good when you're excited about it and you're like, "Wow, we can do this and this and this," and then when you're in conflict, that same sort of really thoughtful long conversations Yeah

can come out. And you just, "We're gonna take a break today. We're gonna take a break. We can't go and do this again," you know? Get a walk, come back. Mm-hmm. And so I'm curious for you, you know, you're speaking to the possibilities, the ways to create and design your own relationships, the communities, the teachers that spoke to you.

Can you speak to the pleasure that you're experiencing in this space? What does your world look like? You know, that listener who's tuning in and is still grasping for the vision of, of what could be possible, what's the pleasure you're experiencing now?

[00:58:10] Cora: I love that question.

[00:58:11] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[00:58:12] Cora: Um, the first answer would have to be sanity.

[00:58:16] Dr. Nicole: Mm. I love that. Yeah.

[00:58:18] Cora: And that is delicious to have the absence of this anxiety in my body, to have-

[00:58:29] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[00:58:30] Cora: quiet in my head. is amazing. And it just, there's so much more room and s- internal spaciousness, and room for self-expression, and being in my authentic sexual identity, and embracing that has been quite the unfolding, especially after being torqued for 58 years.

Um, I, as I said, it was a four-year process to really, like, finally, like, really feel like I'm owning this- Yeah ... and this is who I am. Um, that was a really torturous, excruciatingly painful process. Probably the w- the mo- the most difficult thing I've ever done, and I have done some really- Mm ... difficult things in this life.

So the pleasure is, for the first time in my life, being able to trust myself.

[00:59:28] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[00:59:29] Cora: That is exquisite because in this childhood environment, I was basically- Yeah ... taught, intensely enforced, "Don't trust yourself. Trust this outside thing. Trust this way I'm telling you to be. Trust this way that we decide that the world works."

And there was not, um... I w- it was like I, I could not trust my... I didn't know what was true. I didn't know what was real. Yeah. I knew something was wrong. I knew that there was hypocrisy in what was coming toward me. I had evidence in the world around me that other things existed, and it just took decades to be safe enough to, like, finally dismantle it fully.

But the now being able, it's like, there it is. I'm just- Mm ... right there. I feel like one person. I feel like a cohesive- Yeah ... self. I feel like I am experiencing what I would describe as existential coherence.

[01:00:31] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:00:33] Cora: Which is not something I have e- it's not a return to anything. I never had it. I never had it.

And, um, so I feel like reborn. I feel like I, I'm experi- Like, my birthday was a few days ago and l- and I realized, like, "Oh, my first gay birthday." Ah. And it's like everything is like my first gay this and my first gay that. And, like, each one is just such a, a joy because there's- Like, I just get to be me. I get to be me Yeah.

Yeah I g- that is... I'll never get over that.

[01:01:10] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah, the

[01:01:16] Cora: freedom. So there's a lot

[01:01:18] Dr. Nicole: of pleasure in that. A lot. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. And to the, the part of you that was afraid to journal, right, about any of this, let alone to come onto a podcast- ... with thousands of people tuning in. I know you can't see them right now, but they exist.

Yeah. Yeah. What do you wanna say to that younger part that is terrified to write in the journal?

[01:01:45] Cora: Oh, I just, I love you. Mm. I'm, I know how hard it is. I am holding you. Your future self is holding you. I've got you. I, there's not, like, there's, yeah, there's not even, like, you know, when you come out later in life, whenever that later is, you know, there's grief because- Mm

of what could've been or what you could've missed, and there's absolutely that for me. But I, I've done the math. I've gone over it in my head thousands of times. Like, this couldn't have unfolded any other way- Yeah ... or any sooner. It's just, this is my, my story, how it worked out for me. Mm-hmm. So, like, when I go, like, thinking about, like, you know, comforting that earlier self, I would just wanna say I love you to her because- Yeah

she, like, she just kept going. I just kept going. I've done that my whole life. It's another foot in front of the other, another, another, another. Like, and I, and I've come to understand about myself, like, I'm really brave.

[01:02:53] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Hell yeah. Look at you here. I'm-

[01:02:56] Cora: Yeah. I'm really brave and courageous, and it doesn't mean that...

I, I constantly do things that are really hard for me and really scary- Yeah ... and I just do them anyway. Yep. And I always grow and learn from them and, you know, things don't always g- give me what I thought they were going to, but I, I- Yeah. I, I, I want to... As I, so as I discover, like, who I truly am and all this, it's, it, you know, it's not an add-on, it's a falling away.

[01:03:30] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:03:30] Cora: Yeah. It's a falling away of all the performative parts and all the parts that, the protective parts and the- Right ... parts that, you know, developed to keep me safe. And it's like, as I step more and more into my center and come experience life from my center, it's that when it falls away, I just see, like, there I am.

[01:03:52] Dr. Nicole: There

[01:03:52] Cora: I am. Yeah. I don't have to, like, effort that. It's just there. Yeah. And that's so different and new for me. And- Yeah ... and I, I guess I'm h- I'm thinking about anyone who's listening who's, like, in the closet right now or struggling in this kind of a way, and I would just, when I was looking at all those TikTok videos, just, like, wanting to hear, like, what's on the other side, what's on the other side?

Mm. Is it worth it? Is it worth it? Like, why? You know, it's just too hard. And I would say it is worth it, and it, like, it's miraculous for me to be, like, anywhere out loud saying that on this side, and I... And there's much more to go for me. But I will say that the difference between living... And I didn't even understand.

Like, there's always this word, like, authentic, authentic. Mm. Like, authentic self. Right. Like, what's so great about that? Right. Or what the hell is that? Or why do I need to, like, d- blow up my life to have that? Like, my life is good, you know? But, but the difference is so profound, and it is like- You get, you get to be you.

You just get to be you. Mm-hmm. And, and it feels really good to, to... It's so empowering. It's so potent. It's, I feel like supercharged because of my age. Yeah. Like, ooh, I'm really like I, I have, like, a lot of time to make up for and, and, and feel like, yeah, it is, it's, it's just an incredible feeling to, to be yourself.

And along the way, like, you know, um, some of the other mental constructs that I created for myself along the way was, um, song. I would just write these songs for myself- Ah,

[01:05:34] Dr. Nicole: beautiful ...

[01:05:35] Cora: and sing them to myself. And one of them was like a kind of like hard rock energy. Nice. And the lyrics were, "You get to be you, whatever the fuck that is."

And I would just sing that over and over again to myself, like just, like, opening that door just to like another little crack and another little crack-

[01:05:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[01:05:55] Cora: of like, that, that seems good. Like, I'm just gonna move in that direction. And I guess that's something I would say to my younger self and to anyone who's going through a similar struggle or path is like it d- you don't have to blow the door open all at once.

It d- it's, you can, you can open it a crack. You can even close it back up a little bit, you know? You can- Yeah ... it's, you're not, you decide. And, and, and here's something else that I wish that I had understood a little better earlier on, which was you come out to yourself first.

[01:06:30] Dr. Nicole: Mm,

[01:06:31] Cora: mm-hmm, mm-hmm. That's where it starts.

And I, and I, I caught onto that at, at some point and, and- And I sat with that. Like, once I kind of flipped that switch, I felt a lot more at ease, and I felt a lot more spaciousness and freedom to just-

[01:06:49] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[01:06:49] Cora: be with that, and, like, really let myself come out to myself all the way.

[01:06:55] Dr. Nicole: Mm.

[01:06:55] Cora: And to also give myself permission to maybe I'm never gonna share this with anyone.

[01:07:00] Dr. Nicole: Yeah,

[01:07:01] Cora: yeah. Or maybe I am, I probably am, but I'm gonna wait until it feels like just the right moment to do that. Mm-hmm. And I will know, and I just gave myself permission. I was like, "You're gonna know-" Right ... "when it's time."

[01:07:12] Dr. Nicole: When it's time.

[01:07:13] Cora: And, and so that was a huge gift, and I wish to offer that to anyone who needs to hear that.

Like, you, you get to come out to yourself first, and that's its own beautiful- Mm-hmm ... painful, miraculous process, and- Yeah ... and it takes time. It's not, it's not... We don't undo these scripts and these socializations and these difficult circumstances overnight. It is truly a process of y- years usually even. Oh,

[01:07:45] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

Absolutely, and involves so many back and forth. Um, as you were speaking, I was remembering being in my cognitive behavioral class in my doctoral training, and, uh, there was an example, a case example, case vignette of someone who was really struggling to- determine their sexual orientation. And I remember being in class and people were like, "Oh," like, 'cause the client, the theoretical client was going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.

And some of my colleagues were like, "Oh, we should diagnose this person with OCD. They're really thinking. They're really caught on the, really caught, really spinning, really spinning, really spinning." And I fought in that class like hell. I was like, "That is absolutely fucking absurd. Are any of you queer?

Any queer person in this room knows how many times you've-" Yeah. "Am I straight? Am I a lesbian? Am I bisexual, queer, pan? What is, what is... Maybe all of it's a lie. Maybe I was lied to my whole life. What is..." Like, like, that process is not something to be diagnosed. If anything, let's diagnose the system that put us in this container, right?

So, like, my fire was just flying out of that room because it's such a process. Yay. Yeah, right? Like, it's such a b- how dare you wanna diagnose someone for... Like, that is... Unless it gets them insurance benefits and their therapy can be covered, hey, okay, I'm here for that conversation. Okay, okay. But, like, can we do something else that's not as pathologizing for a clear problem with the systems, right?

Yeah. And so, yeah, that process, you come out to yourself first, right? And then we find the community spaces where we can be seen, 'cause that is such an essential piece of that. I remember the first time I came out publicly. It was for a class in school, and I was terrified. I'm pretty sure I cried during...

I'm pretty confident I cried during that experience, just being like, "Yeah, so I'm gay." And everyone's like, "Wow, that's great, Nicole." And I was like, "You're, you're right, it is, it is great. Thank you. Thank you," you know? But you're just, like, shaking the first time you do it, n- you know, depending on your context.

Purity culture for me was not supportive, right? And so, yeah, it's such a process that you have to have compassion for yourself, all of the spirals that we go through. And also know that, like, pleasure is a practice. There's a reason why I call my private practice that, because as you said, you're just k- putting one foot in front of the other, one foot in front of the other, one foot in front of the other.

And then when you look back on your lifetime, it's like yoga. I also teach yoga, right? Like, I couldn't touch my toes when I first started. Far from it. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? And now I can, and it's not like I woke up one day and just touched my toes. It was every small centimeter and centimeter and centimeter and centimeter.

And so when people come in and they're just like, "I'm so far from my pleasure," it can be hard to, like, bring that vision to them of, like, there will be a day when you're connected to it. And it's gonna take time, and it's gonna take time, but we're gonna put you in the containers, and the community, and the support, and that change is possible, right?

Like, you're proof that change is possible, that abundant love is possible. And, and we need things like song. Uh, for me, it was Can't Help but Fly. Mm. If you haven't heard that song, highly recommend. Mm-hmm. Um, and I was so sad that when I went back to it, like, they don't have additional albums. It came out many years ago.

They had the comments turned off on YouTube, 'cause I can only- Mm ... imagine what they were getting. Uh, but man, I would listen to that song again and again. And the days that I was terrified, straight up crying about non-monogamy, I would listen to that song again, and I'd be like, "I am gonna get there." 'Cause they talk about, like, compersion and being happy for their partners, and I was not happy for my partners.

And I wanna be very clear, like, when you come from that environment, it's hard, right? And so I would keep listening and singing. And part of the beauty of song is that we're bringing somatic regulation into it. When my clients are activated, I recommend finding a song, because when you sing, you have to really control the breath.

And so it can be great to put off the panic attack or the anxiety that's coming on, 'cause you're working with the body and the breath. And so yeah, to find songs that are aligned with that- Mm-hmm ... which is things that we've done spiritually for ancient years- Yeah ... and years and years of the human existence.

Yeah. Yeah. That's all the magic sauce of this process, right? Community, song, dance, and trust. It's a lot of trust that we're gonna keep going, and then there's that day where your pleasure feels miles away, and then it comes back. And then there's a day where your pleasure has completely changed. The thing you thought was so clear is now long- no longer doing it for you, and then you end up in a new place, and you're like, "Well, what's around here?"

And there's no use in grieving that whole time of, "Where'd it go? Where'd it go? Where'd it go?" 'Cause I've been there too you know? It's like-

[01:12:26] Cora: Yes ...

[01:12:27] Dr. Nicole: what's right here right now?

[01:12:30] Cora: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think titration is a really- Yeah ... big part of this whole process of whatever, wherever one is shifting from some kind of state of, like, I do not get to have pleasure, pleasure is not for me, I can't deal with it, or whatever it is, to, like, fully expressed pleasure.

That's a, that's a process. And what- Yeah ... and whatever your story is to getting there is absolutely a process. And yeah, and what you described too, that resonated for me about, like, the kind of in and out, like, s- for me specifically, like, coming out. Like, I came out, I was out, and then there was this, like...

Soon after that, there was an initial period of just, like, ecstasy.

[01:13:10] Dr. Nicole: Right.

[01:13:10] Cora: Literal ecstasy. And then, like, periods of, like, I can't feel... I think I'm gay. Yeah. I can't feel it. Like, where did it go? Where did it go? Yeah. Your words, you know? Like-

[01:13:19] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[01:13:19] Cora: where, what, what happened? And then it would, like, kinda come back on, and then I'd be like, "Oh, there it is.

Oh yeah, I guess it is true," and then, like, back off again. And, like, I think that's just n- a natural process for the psyche. It's a lot to-

[01:13:32] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[01:13:33] Cora: change your s- entire sense of identity and-

[01:13:36] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[01:13:37] Cora: you know, it's like becoming a parent is a big one, like, for so many- Mm-hmm ... people. Like, you, you, to... Y- just like the baby's born, you're not instantly like, "Oh, I'm a mother and I know exactly what that means."

Like, one part of you does because there's the baby and you d- had that baby. Yeah. But, but it's a, a process before you just feel like that, that's just who you are and not, like, this big new thing, you know? Here's my daughter, here's my son. Like, it... Saying those words initially feels so foreign and like-

[01:14:08] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah

[01:14:09] Cora: you know, like play acting or, like-

[01:14:11] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm ...

[01:14:12] Cora: this is my son. Really? Like-

[01:14:16] Dr. Nicole: Right ... where did he come from? You know? Right. Right. Right. And then existentially, you, you connect with it, and maybe it now feels authentic, and now you're that plus one day, plus two days. Right Plus two... And then the three day is different than the, when the first connection, right?

So then just life is that contin- it's, it's the, um, inevitability of change. It's ch- oof, the second you're there, oof, next second, next moment, next moment. And I think that when you really come into that level of presence though, it makes you so grati- like, grateful for each moment that you're in. You're like, "Well, this is what it is.

It will never be here as much as I, as much as I wish my pleasure would be so close right here, it's gonna be different." And so, like, how can we learn to embrace that? And I think one of the beautiful things of people who have had a journey like you or m- or me, all of us who have really, like, crawled out of holes to get to where we at, we have such a understanding now that- Discomfort is a part of the process.

[01:15:10] Cora: Mm-hmm.

[01:15:10] Dr. Nicole: It just is. It just is. Especially, I don't like... I don't know who told us that unlearning systems of oppression would be easy. It's not. It's full of mess and pain and discomfort. And, you know, we wanna watch the moments where we're pushing past our edge of, of tolerance, right? There'd be days where I would notice I'm getting past that when I'd say, "Fuck non-monogamy.

This thing never works. Rah, rah, rah, rah." You know, like, "Throw it away," you know? Like- Mm-hmm ... I'd be like, "Oh, okay. Wow, that's past my zone. I need a nap." "I need some food. We'll start again tomorrow. Got it." 'Cause like that, that thought now is not in my head at all in ways that it used to be so prevalent. Um, and, and it's like anything else.

Again, that practice. You, you gotta learn, "Okay, like that was my zone of tolerance and I'm gonna come back and I'm gonna keep stretching, stretching, stretching." Any good athlete knows it's that edge point. We don't wanna break the muscle, but we wanna push, right? And so we know that. And so I think that gives a, a bit of understanding that there are gonna be parts of this journey that are hard and difficult.

And you're so right. We don't have to do the five grams of psilocybin for your first trip. You know? Right. I do psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, and we do not start in that place, right? Because when we start with a lower dose, you build a safe relationship with the medicine and your body and the psyche and the places that you go, right?

And so whether you're doing solo poly, whether you're opening up a relationship, you wanna do it in titrated ways where you- Mm-hmm ... can build that nervous system attunement and safety. Because those big doses, sure, they'll drop you off your face. You'll have no idea who your ego is, and then you have to reintegrate afterwards after you had the orgy, the big scene.

And maybe you were on drugs and you come back and like, "How do I go to the office now?" That's huge, right? That's when we get the rebounds, and then we're like, "Oh no, what did I do? What did I do? What did I do," right? Yeah. So it's, uh, the beauty of taking the process slowly so that you can have that nervous system attunement, right?

And build that safe both with yourself and the other people. Mm-hmm. 'Cause you're doing it with other people in community. And so I'm so grateful that you were able to really like speak to this full journey and give people a touch into a vision of what is possible over a lifetime. And I know there's still more for you here- Yeah

but you're, you're inviting them into so much possibility today, so I'm really grateful for you.

[01:17:25] Cora: Oh, thank you. I, I... Yeah, that's my... That was my real reason for, for coming on here today, is to Yeah, to show ano- like, an example. Like, this is possible. Like, and it's, and this, this particular example is not common or, or outwardly talked about a whole lot, and I, and that needs to change.

So, um, yeah, we're, we'll include a, an email address with- Mm-hmm ... this, uh, episode if, if there are other women who are in a similar situation wanting support. Um, I have been thinking about creating a system of support if there is enough interest. So, so yeah, so maybe that will happen. But at least just, yeah, offering a voice, hearing a actual human voice of- Mm-hmm

here's the journey I've taken. Here's where I am on it. Here's where it's leading me. And just to know that it's possible because it's, it's really in a, an impossible situation when you are in a loving, positive, uh, straight-facing relationship that has been really good in most ways. W- it's a bind. It's a really complicated place to be, and especially if you're older- Mm-hmm

and you've invested decades into that. Oh,

[01:18:43] Dr. Nicole: yeah.

[01:18:43] Cora: You... It's very easy to think like, "Ugh, you know, I, I guess I, I'll just, you know, I just won't have this thing." Right. Or, "I won't explore it in this lifetime," or-

[01:18:54] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[01:18:54] Cora: you know, just kinda put it in a corner somewhere. But it's there. Yeah. It calls you. Yeah. It calls you, and it's so painful to not answer that call.

So, so yeah, it, but so, but when that relationship is actually worth it, worth, worth going through this uncharted, difficult territory with, it's actually, yeah, I think I said this earlier, but there's a real advantage in that set of circumstances is poised for depth and growth if you can find your way there.

It's

like you, you just have to work at a, at a different level of, of consciousness and intentionality. And-

[01:19:35] Dr. Nicole: Yeah ...

[01:19:36] Cora: and what's beautiful about that I'm finding so far, like, it affects all my relationships. Like- Yes,

[01:19:41] Dr. Nicole: it does ...

[01:19:42] Cora: my ability to communicate in, you know, a casual work situation or one of my children or a friend is like, I have so much more confidence, so many more resources, such a deeper, bigger understanding of, like, all of what's behind why people communicate the way they do, and how to create agreements, and how to create safety and consent, and all these really important things that really all of us- Yeah

should have in our toolkit. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, it's really, like, potent information that, that I watched, um, a documentary on the, um, Ashley Madison phenomenon. Oh, yeah.

[01:20:23] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:20:23] Cora: And in that, uh, and for anyone who doesn't know, that's a, that's a site, a cheating website, a, a, a, an app, a dating app for, like, married people who are, uh, like, wanting to have a secret affair with someone.

And I believe- There's an episode on

[01:20:37] Dr. Nicole: this in the catalog with Paul Keevil, folks.

[01:20:41] Cora: Yeah. 70 million users. Yeah.

[01:20:44] Dr. Nicole: And- 90 last I checked in. Crazy ...

[01:20:47] Cora: oh,

[01:20:47] Dr. Nicole: my God. He came on. That's- It was a fascinating episode, Coco. The, the,

[01:20:50] Cora: the lead- the leader guy?

[01:20:53] Dr. Nicole: Not the leader guy, 'cause he's been kicked out after, you know- Mm ... the Netflix and all of this.

This was one of their current, like, CEOs who came on to talk about the research, and it was such a moment for me where I was like, "Do I wanna align with th- this is?" But all of my friends were like, "Nicole, the journalistic opportunity." Yes. Yeah. And we had a great conversation about, uh, infidelity around the world, and how no one in France, no one in France uses Ashley Madison 'cause it's a normal part of the culture.

And then the highest state in the United States, Utah

[01:21:22] Cora: Wow Yeah That is so interesting. We

[01:21:24] Dr. Nicole: knew that was coming, but I love- Oh ... that they have the data for it Oh I'm like, ooh.

[01:21:29] Cora: That's amazing. Well, one of the guys on that program who was, like, high up in the- Yeah ... in the system there- Bad ... he said this beautiful, like, true thing, which he said, "This is just evidence of that people would rather cheat than talk."

[01:21:47] Dr. Nicole: Yeah.

[01:21:49] Cora: That's po- like, 90 million people would rather cheat than talk. Like, so what does that tell us about communication in our world, and relationships, and, you know, relating? Like, we need to up our game as humans. I mean, y- as, as evidenced by our political world as well. Like, communi- uh, this is one of the kind of core things that I'm learning through this process in my own life is that it's always good to up your communication skills.

There's no downside to that, and it helps every situation and every relationship. And, um, you know, I'm a teacher, and as a teacher, um, I, I really, like, love modeling that. Mm. Mm-hmm. And I love modeling authentic communication to young people, young adults, you know, out, out, going out into the world. Mm. Like, here's another way you could do it.

You could just be really, like, you know, consensual, and kind, and thoughtful, and open-hearted, and- Right ... you know, non-judgmental. And c- like, the... You know, you, you don't create a safe space by saying, "This is a safe space. Let's go." Right, right. You actually have to create the safe space.

[01:23:02] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

And,

[01:23:06] Cora: you know, and how do we do that? We do that with attunement, with energy, with communication, with consciousness, and I'd like to see a world where all of that gets raised. Yeah. And so, yeah, that's my, my, my part is to-

[01:23:19] Dr. Nicole: Mm ...

[01:23:20] Cora: show up and do that wherever I can.

[01:23:22] Dr. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And you did a great job at that today.

I'm so, so delighted that we got to have you on the show. Yes, yes. Thank you. Ah, okay. Well, as we come towards the end of our time, I'm gonna take a deep breath with you.

And then I'll see if there's anything else you wanna share with the listeners. Otherwise, I can guide us towards our closing question.

[01:23:50] Cora: Well, if you're still listening, thank you for listening. Yeah. Thank you for being- Of course ... here with us today.

[01:23:55] Dr. Nicole: Totally. Yeah.

[01:23:55] Cora: And I hope that you listeners received some piece of information or thought or knowledge or feeling that makes your life better in some way.

[01:24:07] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a joy to know that our voice is rippling through the ears and the consciousness- ... and the bodies of so many other humans out there.

[01:24:17] Cora: It's amazing.

[01:24:17] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. All right, Coco. So the one question that I ask everyone on the podcast is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:24:31] Cora: Hmm. I would say mixed orientation relationships.

[01:24:36] Dr. Nicole: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, 'cause some people think it's not possible. There's no way. How could we ever, right? And you're living proof that that is possible, and pleasurable.

[01:24:50] Cora: Yes.

[01:24:51] Dr. Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:24:53] Cora: I would say it's very much, um, a work in progress for us. Yeah. But it's, it's the pro- it's the process.

It's, you know, there's no there. There's no, like- Right ... other place to get to. It's like there is now. Now is now. That's all you get. That's all there is. And so if the process of developing your own path in relationship, whatever that may be, charting your own territory, um, you know, relationship anarchy, whatever that means to you, that is, um- You can, it's possible to en- enjoy every step of the way.

It, it, it doesn't always feel good. Yeah. But like in the bigger picture of things, the... There's bigger pleasure than just feeling good too. Oh,

[01:25:42] Dr. Nicole: yeah. Like,

[01:25:43] Cora: you know, th- th- they both count. The, it all counts. But, but that the investment in your truth and in the investment in aligning with who you really are, whatever that is, is worth it.

[01:25:57] Dr. Nicole: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think you responded to my educational newsletter, the one that I cried all the way through, non-monogamy. Is that the one? Yeah, exactly. Yep, yep. And it's so worth it, you know? Yeah. Younger self, like keep going. Don't give up. Cry, give yourself a little nap, take a bubble bath, come back.

Come back to the game. It's good. It's, it's so, so worth it. Oh. Well, I'm so glad, Coco, that you came onto the show today. Thank you again for bringing your story, your bravery, all of that to me and the listeners today. Thank you.

[01:26:33] Cora: My pleasure.

[01:26:35] Dr. Nicole: Oh. And dear listener, if you wanna connect with Coco, we'll have the email in the show notes below.

If you have a similar story or are looking for community, we'll have that linked in the show notes below. So thank you for coming.

Dear listener, thank you so much for tuning in to Modern Anarchy. Thank you for sharing this episode with your friends, with your lovers, with your community. Truly, it means so much to me, and I am so grateful that you are here. If you are wanting to release jealousy in your non-monogamous dynamics and step into compersion and pleasure-filled connection you can read my book, The Psychedelic Jealousy Guide, for free on my website.

There you will also find so many other free resources, including worksheets on how to clearly communicate and set commitments and boundaries within your non-monogamous dynamics and other ways to practice clear communication about your sexual desires so that you can step into your most pleasure-filled sex and relationships.

So head on over to modernanarchypodcast.com to find all of those free resources and I look forward to seeing you next week